Pete Wright: I'm Pete Wright.
Andy Nelson: And I'm Andy Nelson.
Pete Wright: Welcome to the next reel. When the movie ends
Andy Nelson: Our conversation begins.
Pete Wright: Manhunter is over. And if one does what God does enough times, one will become as God is.
Trailer: Intruder entered through kitchen sliding door. Nationwide victims. Yeah, this is Will Graham of the FBI. One killer. This is what the subject's teeth look like.
Have you ever seen blood on the moonlight well? Multiple trails. Just you and me now, sport. One hundred. I'm gonna find him.
Damn it. FBI agent Will Graham, man under.
Pete Wright: We're starting our series on Lecter.
Andy Nelson: Hannibal Lecter. This was, your series pick. You wanted to jump into the Hannibal Lecter films. What was it that drew you to picking this particular series?
Pete Wright: I've always, loved the character. I've always loved the character of Hannibal Lecter. I saw silence of the lambs before I read any of the books, then I read the books, and I've obviously seen all the movies. I I just genuinely like them all. It this is the one I've seen the least and today's Manhunter.
And, obviously, it's a bit it's a bit it runs a bit parallel to the rest of the series, you know, once we change casting of Hannibal Lecter. But it does some interesting things, and so I was curious to revisit it as part of this series. You what's your what's your relationship to Lecter?
Andy Nelson: I mean, I was introduced to, Hannibal Lecter through the silence of the lambs. I had never read any of the books. And, I mean, it came out at a time where I probably wouldn't have been reading the books, when Red Dragon was published. So I missed that. I missed this film, and I saw Silence of the Lambs.
And then I've kind of continued along from there. I've only actually read The Silence of the Lambs and Hannibal, and those were both between when Silence of Lambs came out and when Hannibal came out. So I've never read this. I've never read Hannibal Rising. So I'm a little behind on on the reading and it probably warrants me going back and just kind of doing a read of all the books just to kind of get a sense of things.
But, yeah, and then this one, I don't think I actually even watched it until I ended up buying it on DVD because they released a version that had the theatrical cut and the director's cut. And so that was, I think, the first time I watched it, so pretty late in the game. But it's, you know, Michael Mann and it's a film that I think it definitely is of its time, but I there's so many things that I enjoy about it. It's just a film that I've returned to quite a number of times.
Pete Wright: So that's what we're talking about today. But first, I have a sidebar.
Andy Nelson: Already. Okay.
Pete Wright: There's that's the sidebar music. Andy, last week, we started a new, and I'm sure what is going to be a long running segment on this show called I dare you to watch it this week, which is a asterisk there. I don't know if that's gonna be the title. In a fit of peak, I assaulted you, finally assigning you to watch on 40 Second Street. And in retaliation, you gave me a three hour Japanese film called drive my car.
And I would like to know, Andy, did you watch Vanya on 40 Second Street?
Andy Nelson: I'm a failure. Our first week. Our first week. It's been a busy week. It's been it's the worst week to to suddenly start a new thing.
I think for the first week, we need to have a grace period. Yeah.
Pete Wright: Okay. Maybe. So Vanya is still on your list of I dare you to watch it this week.
Andy Nelson: Yeah.
Pete Wright: I did mine drive my car. I cannot believe I missed this when it came out. It was an extraordinary film. I loved it. Loved it.
Loved it. Every bit of it was fantastic, and I love that you pivoted and gave me that movie as a Vanya movie. It's another uncle Vanya movie, and I loved how they were portraying it in all the actors' natural languages. Also, the hero of the film is really the red Saab nine hundred Turbo. And I have a a very soft spot in my heart because my first car was a silver Saab nine hundred turbo.
We actually called it doctor turbo, and it was the star of my movie, doctor turboshots and his sidekick throttle, which I made in high school. So thank you for that, Andy. It was a great recommendation. I look forward to whatever you dare me to watch this week. We'll have to wait and see.
Andy Nelson: It'll all depend on our conversation.
Pete Wright: And now back to the show. Alright. Okay. So Manhunter, this is an interesting film, and I think the thing that is most interesting is that is is remembered as part of the Hannibal Lecter series, and Brian Cox plays Hannibal Lecter, who is great. But that's not what the movie's about.
Right? It's the the central character is not Hannibal Lecter. The central character, you'd say, is is Will Graham, and he is trying to solve this series of murders by Francis Dollarhide, who is outstanding, played by Tom Noonan, and he is killing families and watching them from their yards. And so I look at this movie, and I think, How did this contribute to the Hannibal Lecter lore and fandom?
Andy Nelson: Yeah. It's interesting. Well and it's interesting because even when you get to the silence of the lambs, I mean, Hannibal has a more prominent role, but it still is not, like the focal point of the film. It's it's a film that's very similar to this in the sense that we're following a an agent pursuing a serial kill killer and going to Lecter for, some advice and help to to do so. That's really the crux of it.
And it's not really until we get to Hannibal, the third film and the third book by Thomas Harris, where we're shifting into a story that really ends up putting Hannibal more at the forefront as the kind of driving force of the film. Even though in that film, there also is Starling and another madman. So it's an interesting it's an interesting series. It's it's interesting the way that it's developed. And it's interesting that Harris so strongly latched on to Lecter as kind of the focal point of or the thread that would weave through all of these different stories, even to the point where he ends up getting his own TV show.
And I suppose it's probably because largely, I think, with The Silence of the Lambs, that version of the character became so iconic in the way that Anthony Hopkins portrayed him in the just kind of the mask, the kind of the thing that they haven't strapped into. Like, there were a lot of things that made that character so prominent that allowed or maybe that that spurred Harris on to kind of continue writing that character. And we'll talk about that more as we kind of get to the films later in the series. At this point, it's just such an interesting glimpse into where we're going to go because Lecter is such a small part. I mean, they shot the the bits with Brian Cox in over three day period.
So he hardly was actually involved in the production of the film. But he is the one he plays the character that essentially pushed Will Graham to a breaking point when he caught in him and and got him locked up. And now, Graham needs to kind of like get that juice again, get that connection to a serial killer so that he can start thinking that way again after kind of his his retirement after catching Lecter because his brain was kind of broken, almost driven mad. And now he's at a point where he needs that again so that he can actually get into Dollarhide's mind. And so it's an interesting role for a serial killer in the story.
And in a lot of ways, I suppose there's this connection and this, you know, two sides of the coin type of story between cop and killer, where they both think in kind of a such a similar way. It's just one is going after the kill, and one is trying to capture the person going after the kill. Seeing how Lecter plays into that, I think is such a an interesting decision for Harris to write it that way.
Pete Wright: Totally. There is no way to armchair Lecter out of the movie today because so much has been made of the the Hannibal Lecter cinematic and literary universe. But if I could, if we go back to 1986, right, you and I are doing a podcast that did not exist. But 1986, we are talking about Manhunter. We've seen it for the first time in theaters.
Can you imagine what 1986 Andy would have said about the structure of this film, knowing nothing about anything that comes after?
Andy Nelson: I'm trying to think of other serial killer types of stories that were comparable in the mid eighties, you know, that that had come out around that time. And I can't help but feel like I mean, there might be some that are are definitely kind of police procedural stories, but I feel like a lot of them are probably in the Clint Eastwood vein, where it's much more of a tough cop and it's more of an action thriller. I'm thinking of, like Sudden Impact types of stories. And I'm wondering if there were other cop detective stories that really kind of looked at the procedure. There must be some, but I I think what's interesting about this film and coming from at that point, if you're paying attention to the world of film and TV, you're walking into this going, this is directed by the guy who did Miami Vice.
Right? And so Yeah.
Pete Wright: Thief. Particular. Right? I mean, that's what
Andy Nelson: Right. But just like, I think Miami Vice was the thing that largely is between Thief and this. Right? And so all of those TV shows or TV episodes, and certainly, like, the color schemes and everything is so Miami Vice looking. And and so walking into this feeling like it's an interesting take on a serial killer film, I think, because it's I I think, if you're looking for something that's more like a Clint Eastwood type of one, this feels so different.
Pete Wright: No. I I I think you're absolutely right. And I think that it's it's one of the big criticisms of the film is that, you know, it's Michael Mann's style over substance, which is I I don't think is a a criticism that can be faulted. But if I'm looking at it specifically from the the architecture of character economy, I think there's a universe in which 1986 Pete, having just seen this movie, would say, this Lecter character is nonsense. Why do we have him?
We have a deeply experienced detective in Will Graham played fantastically by William Peterson, and we have a horrifying serial killer in Tom Noonan who is incredibly compelling. Why do we need Hannibal Lecter between these two? And I think the argument that Will Graham has to get his juice back is the thinnest of the narrative approaches to this in in this movie. It is the thing that is it that it just holds on by a thread largely buoyed by the fact that that these movies that the movies were, you know, remade in the form of Anthony Hopkins and and Clarice Starling, which we'll talk about next week. The thing there is a thing that sets that movie's use of Hannibal Lecter apart that this movie does not have because Will Graham is such a an experienced and compelling detective.
Why does he need Hannibal Lecter? The movie does and and I you know, it's been so long since I've read the book, but my my hunch is the book probably makes a better case for why that relationship exists. The movie does not, in my opinion. And and I think, you know, if you look at just character economy, it's a distraction. That's that's my hunch.
Andy Nelson: Well, that was gonna be my question for you. Like, how much of the book did you remember? Because again, I haven't read this book, so I wasn't exactly sure how much we're seeing of like, if it's the same reasons that he goes to see Lecter and everything in the book or what.
Pete Wright: I I think the bigger issue is around Dollarhide. What I remember about Dollarhide is that the book has all of Dollarhide's backstory. It's Dollarhide's story. You know? He's a a super tragic figure in the book.
And in the movie, he's kind of an abstract distant phantom that I I don't think we end up caring as much about, up to the final, you know, confrontation through the window. And I think that's that does disrespect to the character Anne Noonan's performance. That's that's it. I I'm you know, what you get in, you know, 400 pages is a a beefed up dollar hide, a beefed up Lecter, I'm sure. And, I don't actually remember how Will Graham is is treated if he's more or less expanded upon.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. I'm just looking at the plot synopsis on Wikipedia quickly. He had retired after suffering serious injuries from the encounter with Lecter, who he did actually capture and get locked up. And it sounds like in the book, it's not like, he's already gone to the crime scenes. He's already kind of figured out the stakeout location, climbed the tree, found the Chinese character, carved into the tree, figured out it's, the symbol of the red dragon, but is at a dead end, and realizes that he has to visit Lecter to help him and give him some, perhaps some, clues to the killer's pathology.
And so I I feel like that's an interesting element because it sounds like in the book, Lector factors into it later. I'm kind of with you. I I struggle a little bit with the Lecter elements because and not even the Lecter elements. It's more just the fact that Will Will's reasoning to go visit him. But I think it was really because in this particular version of the story, they've latched on to this idea of Will needing to kind of get back into that mindset.
And again, Lecter even says it's like, you know, the reason that you caught me is because we're so alike and and to the point where that freaks Will out and he like has to get out of the room. And I think that's the interesting element. It's it's an interesting element in that psyche that we have with Will, but perhaps it's something that they dwell on too much in the sense that because he had retired, he for some reason needs to talk to a serial killer just to start getting into the groove again, and that might be why why we struggle with it with a little a little bit,
you know?
Pete Wright: Well, he also needed a therapist, and they're really hard to get through insurance, and Lecter's a therapist, and maybe that was the easiest get. Right. That's a horrible joke.
Andy Nelson: Could be.
Pete Wright: Okay. So I I feel like we're we're largely on the same page, which, again, I think Brian Cox is an interesting portrayal of of doctor Lecter, especially when you fashion what we learn about doctor Lecter in in subsequent material. I think Brian Cox is an able Lecter. The approach was was changed. Something triggered Hannibal Lecter when Anthony Hopkins played it, but I think he's great.
Andy Nelson: But some people say he's better than Anthony Hopkins. I mean, do you can you see that?
Pete Wright: Oh, yeah. Yeah. He's I mean, just as as restrained and super pragmatic as he is, and, I I think it is it's chilling in in his own right. I prefer Anthony Hopkins, but and and I think Anthony Hopkins there is a universe in which I would be very curious to see a Brian led film about Hannibal Lecter because I think he would be great if he's given the opportunity to shine as the central character. Again, obviously, no disrespect to his performance.
It's right up there. It's great. It's just I don't see its purpose in the film as easily.
Andy Nelson: It is interesting. And I I guess I buy into it because of the reason that they put it here. But it is one of the elements that, that I struggle with. Now it's interesting. On the flip side of things, there is a part of me that actually finds the time with Lecter a little more enjoyable than the time with Dollarhide.
And I think part of that is because I don't think I like Tom Noonan as much as you do. And I think that's in general. I think I've largely always struggled with Tom Noonan as a as a performer. And so, I I think there are interesting things here that work to make him off putting, like adding the little hair lip and things like that, kind of just like the unkempt baldish head that he has. Like, there are things that that they do to kind of just keep him unappealing.
But I don't know. There's something about him as an actor that I've just never quite clicked with, and I always struggle a little bit. Really?
Pete Wright: Yeah. That's fascinating. I think he's a a deeply curious character actor, and I think all of the things that you described that make him off putting are making him off putting as dollar hide, which is the point. I need to be put off, you know, by Francis Dollarhide. Sure.
He's an off putting human being. So I, you know, I'm I find that curious that what I mean, can you talk more about that? What is it about the performance that you don't connect with? Do you know?
Andy Nelson: I don't know. I don't necessarily think it's the performance. I just think it's him. Like, I just struggle with him as an actor that when I see him on screen, I'm just not as invested in it for some reason. You know?
I like, I'm trying to think of any Tom Noonan performance where I've really kind of enjoyed the film. I don't know. There there might be one. I I'm not thinking of anything off the top of my head, but
Pete Wright: You're not you're not a big synecdoche, York fan?
Andy Nelson: No. I really did not like that movie.
Pete Wright: That seems like a thing that you'd really love.
Andy Nelson: I would completely hate. You're correct. Robocop two? Robocop two. No.
I didn't really like him in that. Anomalisa, I guess, but it's animated. You know, I don't have to worry about it there so much. Probably a lot of the stuff that he's done, I like him in some bit parts like the man with one red shoe. Like, that's a weird, weird thing, but it's like, it's such a small part.
Same thing with Heat. Like, he was fine in Heat, but again, it's just it's a small part. And so I I feel like for me that ends up being where I I can handle him better. Yeah. I just I just I think largely struggle with him as a performer.
Pete Wright: I had first seen him in the movie he did right before this. Actually, I didn't even don't even know if if I saw this movie first, but it was FX. Do you remember that film?
Andy Nelson: Yeah. I don't know if I could tell you who he was in it, but I loved the movie at the time.
Pete Wright: This is yeah. I loved the movie too, and I I feel like that's my that was my or one of my earliest connections besides Manhunter. But, obviously, I mean, I saw him in monster squad. He was Frankenstein's monster. And then he just became a face, and he happened to be I haven't seen a lot of his films, but I've seen he he shows up in a lot of the television that I was watching at the time over the years.
He's been in a lot of the TV, and it's always been fun to see his face show up because I know that face. That's Francis Dollarhide, and I I think he's I think he's great. I do I I wonder. Yeah. It sounds like from your perspective, if we didn't have Lecter and it was just more time spent with Dollarhide, that would have done a disservice to the film in your estimation.
Andy Nelson: I mean, it's possible. It also I guess it would depend on what they gave me of him. Like, would there be something more with him that I could have attached to more? You know, it's it's hard to say. There are moments that I, I am fine with in the film.
I think sometimes it's just like, I don't know. As the story develops, as we kind of follow him, we we, you know, we first start seeing him when he's going to work and he has to talk to the woman who works in the in the dark room who happens to be blind, and that's Joan Allen. And and there's that interesting connection that they have that I do find interesting, and that's that I think is a compelling part of that story to me, where she ends up kind of attracted to this person because of how he talks so directly and, is kind of quiet and there's this strange drive. And also just the fact that, you know, he takes her to this this vet that he knows to to pet this tranquilized tiger, which is such a strange scene, but it is an interesting in the scope of the character of a person who is like looking for power to, like, godlike power in in some capacity, there is this sense of putting this blind woman who who is blind like that, already has a harder time and and as somebody who is thinking of himself as God, putting this in quotes as far as his perspective, but weaker figure in a situation with this massive killer beast.
But in a powerful situation that he's kind of ended up manipulating where she is now able to to hold the tiger and everything, and I I find that to be a fascinating sequence. Like, those are the the moments that I find really compelling that we have with with, within the film.
Pete Wright: I'm really glad you brought up that scene. I think I see it differently than you do. I actually look at that as an possibly a great example, a textbook example of love bombing. Like, this guy is so immediately fascinated by this woman and doesn't have to fear his own looks in front of her because she's blind that he falls for her so deeply so fast. I think his bringing her to the tiger is a genuine expression of love.
I think it's a it's an expression of intimacy that he knows this is a thing that she's going to deeply appreciate and is is trying to use that to build connection, not to express, you know, the otherwise sort of perverse sense of power that he he has in the rest of the movie. I think this is the the one that stands out and the one that becomes so heartbreaking because he so deeply misinterprets the later signals of the guy who gives her a ride home. I found the the sequence with the tiger as she's touching the tiger deeply moving. I was surprised at how sort of connected I was to that to that sequence that he was giving of himself to call in this favor and that she was able to experience this thing that otherwise she had never experienced before. And and Joan Allen plays it very, very well.
Andy Nelson: I I think that is all there too. Like, I I do think that he genuinely has this attraction to her and this draw to this woman who because she likes him for who he is, again, largely because she's blind and can't see him. But still, there is this attraction that he suddenly feels for her. I just think that there's also more to it. I mean, you don't just take somebody to go pet a pet a drugged tiger, you know, like that that was that was a a big decision to say, you know what?
I happen to have a vet friend.
Pete Wright: But, you know, it's not like he's like, I'm gonna go put you at risk. He's it's totally monitored. Like, they're the actual doctor is there.
Andy Nelson: Oh, I know. But it's just like that's like the sort of thing that, like, to come to mind, like, the first like, the instant he meets her, right, to go, I've got a vet who can get this tiger drug. Let's do it. Like, it's just such a strange, like, thing to immediately come to the forefront of your mind.
Pete Wright: It's less exciting to have her pet a drugged house cat. I think this Okay. Sure. The thing that's is different. And he didn't put her in the cage with it.
Like, I it's here.
Andy Nelson: Oh, yeah.
Pete Wright: I know you I know you can't see what's coming, but you're in the cage with a sleeping Bengal tiger. Right? It's not I I okay. Yeah. We we may be in a position where your cynicism has actually peaked in this relationship between the two, and all I see is balloon hearts.
Andy Nelson: Yes. That's possible. It's possible. You know, going back though to the the conversation about dollar hide and this idea of wanting to kind of put himself into a position of god and control and everything. It's interesting watching this film, and we get a few moments of production design focused on Dollarhide in his place where he's got this giant wall, like lit up wall, the vinyl piece that's hanging of like a Mars landscape.
And then in another room in in in his house, it's like the cosmos, like all these heavenly things and then the the moon and everything. And I immediately went to and this is jumping way back in our show toward the first season when we talked about Clute because the villain in that film, Cable, also has this god complex and has this room that he's in where he's sitting at this table in his office and the back is a lit up mural of like a interplanetary object. I can't remember if it's the moon or what it is, but it's it's a very similar thing. And it's such an interesting concept to have these characters drawn to some sort of a power obsession, this godlike desire to look at it where they view themselves as of so far above everything else that they are literally in space looking down upon them. And I found that to be such an interesting element of the production design that Michael Mann kind of incorporated into the sequences with, Dollar Height.
What did you think about all of those?
Pete Wright: Yeah. I I liked it, quite a bit. I think using, you know, in in particular, the William Blake painting of the red dragon as this sort of avatar of his undescribed becoming, Dollarhide's undescribed transformation. He just knows he's gonna be something greater, but we don't know what it is. The fact that this painting so adeptly describes his relationship with Joan Allen's character too.
I I can't remember what the actual title of it is. The the red dragon and the lady clothed in sun or something?
Andy Nelson: The great red dragon and the woman clothed with the sun by Willing Blake. Yeah.
Pete Wright: I mean, their relationship ends up becoming sort of what is perceived in the painting, I think, is is quite lovely, almost diminished in the film. And and I think that's an area where that could be their relationship happens so late in the film that I I think it's underplayed just how important that their relationship is together and to his becoming something else. The pacing ends up being such that it's the the film moves so fast in that third act that that I don't think we get as much of her attraction to him as we need. And I think that's another thing in the book that we get more of, that she is authentically attracted to him, and he is so inside his own head about it that he can't perceive that relationship as authentically. And that's that's great conflict, and we don't it it it doesn't maintain.
Andy Nelson: Well, it's literally like like they they are around each other for, like, maybe two days, maybe three. Like, he goes into the dark room to get the to talk to her about whatever the issue was. That's the connection. He's drawn to her. He agrees to give a ride home.
On the way, he takes her to the tiger. She's mesmerized. They go back to his place and he watches he does his homework watching the home movies of the person he's gonna kill next. And she hops on his lap and they make love. She wakes up the next morning.
They talk on the dock, and then I think she goes back to work. And that night, he goes to pick her up, and that's when she he sees the guy, the other person dropping her off, and and in his head, thinks that they I mean, it could have been a few days later, but whatever the situation was like, there's like, it's a very very short relationship.
Pete Wright: Yeah.
Andy Nelson: And so it's interesting and I I yeah, I guess I'm curious like in the book, is it that short also? And is it from her perspective, just like a one night fling with a coworker sort of thing? Or is there actually this draw that she has to to him, you know? I'm I'm curious about that because it it felt like there was a little bit of a draw into his personality and everything, but I didn't get a sense that from her that she had, like, fallen in love or anything.
Pete Wright: Yeah. And, my sort of sense memory of the book is that we get more of that. Like, that she becomes much more of an important relationship in his life, which makes the ultimate betrayal that much more visceral. Right? At the at at the end of the movie, when he turns and believes she has betrayed him, it becomes something of greater weight than is present in the movie.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. Right. Right. And I will say, I loved how Mann shot that sequence with the moment where the coworker walks her up to the door, and it's like he sees like a little eyelash or something stuck on her cheek and is just taking it off, basically, is what's happening. Totally innocent exchange.
Totally innocent and but from Dollarhide's perspective, like, we cut back to it, there's a light set up behind the two people in front of the door that's making them glow. It's shot a little slow, so everything looks incredibly romantic. And it played so well. Like, we get into his head there. It just it it was perfect.
I loved the way that they constructed that to really put dollar hide in this mental place where his entire world really just collapsed, which led to that moment where he kills the coworker right there in the yard.
Pete Wright: Yeah. In the hedge. I the moment that we cut to the the backlit shot, in my head, just the chorus of if you like pina coladas, right, just starts playing. That's the the whole sound design happened at once. And I don't think that's what was actually playing, but in my head, that's how I remember it.
Andy Nelson: Pretty sure it was that.
Pete Wright: It becomes like an Adam Sandler movie. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah.
Andy Nelson: That's funny.
Pete Wright: And and an another aside, one of the things that they use in this sequence to follow when he takes her is, on a in a Gada de Vida, which is The long version. The really long version. It's like
Andy Nelson: a seventeen or eighteen minute long version of that song. Right?
Pete Wright: Crazy iron butterfly enthusiasm version. And but it plays really, really well because it adds to this sort of hypnosis of that sequence, which which I think is ultimately played nicely. One of the things that that I had I I read about this getting ready for the show is that Tom Noonan went completely method in his, you know, preparation for dollar hide, and he ended up staying in his trailer, staying at different hotels, taking different transportation, making people refer to him as Francis. And so the first time he and and and Will Graham, I I'll say, meet is when Peterson throws himself through the plate glass window. That's the first time that they were ever in the room together in shooting this film.
I think it's great. I think if I have any criticism of the final sequence of the film is that it's too short. It plays very, very quickly. All I can think about is compare it to the night vision goggle sequence in the movie we're gonna talk about next week, which in in almost every way improves on the the fear, the hunt, the intrigue of what this final set piece is.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. It's it's an interesting final set piece. Again, I mean, the lighting and everything, Dante Spanati's lighting is just so fascinating throughout. Like, we've got such fantastic, like, full blues and greens and whites, like some real interesting color schemes. And here, it's it's definitely we're kind of getting some kind of that blue and orange.
It's it's really beautiful. But the sequence always starts for me that we've got Dollarhide with Reba trapped inside. She is we kind of talked about this in our pre show chat. We were talking about films with blind characters, and the idea of a blind character being trapped in a room with somebody who's after them, is is kind of a terrifying one. And she's kind of trapped in this room, this space that she doesn't know with the dollar hide coming after her, ready to kind of basically slash her throat.
And then you have William Peterson as Will decide decide he's gonna jump through the window instead of, I don't know, maybe just shooting through the window or something. Like, it's it seems like such a dumb idea and it looks cool, but I always question that. It's like, that's how you're going to do it? Like, you're jumping through a window. You're gonna cut yourself up.
You're potentially gonna lose your any sense of of, surprise and momentum that you have, and it just and and then he immediately gets knocked out. And so, yeah, it it it's a little it's a strange way to start the sequence off. I I do end up liking how it ends up playing, but it always starts in a way I'm like, I
Pete Wright: don't I I couldn't agree more. I I think what they're and don't forget, Dollarhide sees him running across the yard
Andy Nelson: Yeah. Right. Right.
Pete Wright: Jump through. It is it and and I think it's made worse because it's it's slowed down. And so we actually watch him in this sort of paralyzingly slow motion jump through the window, which, again, criticism of the Michael Mann style over substance. It looks great. It should not be thought about with any degree of depth because I totally agree with you.
The thing that's nice about it is we do get the the changing sort of roles of dollar, Hyde, and Graham. That Graham is now the one in the yard peeking through the giant windows. And that is a a sort of metaphorical switch that is not played to tremendous effect, but it's at least present.
Andy Nelson: Yes. No. I got distracted because I I was like I I got really curious. I'm like, how does the how does the this the resolution end in the book? And so I I was looking at the Wikipedia page, so apologies.
Pete Wright: Okay. So how does it end in the book?
Andy Nelson: So we're at Dollarhide's place. He kidnaps Reba, takes her to his house, and he's going to kill her. He says, I'm gonna kill you and then kill myself. And it with a gun. He's actually gonna shoot her.
She hears the gunfire and a body hits the floor. He's also gonna blow the house up. She gets out of the house. Graham gets there, comforts her. Nobody can find Dollarhide, but they think he died in the in the fire.
Graham goes back to his house in Florida, and Dollarhide shows up at his house. There's a violent struggle. He stabs, Graham in the face, and then Will's wife actually is the one who shoots, shoots dollar hide.
Pete Wright: The the books parallel would be Michael Caine and Jaws, that they follow each other around the the world.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. I guess so. I guess so. Well, but he we know that he had Will's address.
Pete Wright: Yeah. That's true. That's
Andy Nelson: true. And if they're assuming that Dollarhide is dead, I suppose you can see him moving his family out of the little safe place that they the FBI had set them up in and back home. And so yeah. And so then, I but I imagine it's a sort of situation where I wonder if in the book, like when when Dollarhide shows up at the house, does he jump through the windows perhaps? And see.
Like, is there a little flip? But yeah, I just, I kind of, I don't know. I guess I kind of like that better that, you know, I it would have made the movie longer, but I just I again, I just I'm not a fan of the way that Will just runs in there like that. You know?
Pete Wright: Yeah. Well, I think they could have tightened up the relationship stuff between Will and his wife. I I found like, they they should have executed that faster. I think they were trying to build, the relationship of Will at home, and they we didn't need as much of them lounging in bed and moving around. Just get to the case.
If you're gonna keep all the other stuff, then let's make the central point of the film, which is solving this crime and that getting us to that final confrontation paramount. Beef that up. Cut the relationship stuff. We know relationships are hard. She was not a useful character written as is, and I I didn't need didn't need as much of as of missus Graham.
Andy Nelson: You could say you could say she's pretty typically written as a Yeah.
Pete Wright: Woman in a Michael Mann film. A Michael Mann film. Yeah. A %. And that would have given us more opportunity to to allow him to to beef up Joan Allen's part.
Like, Reba I would have loved to see more Reba, less missus Graham.
Andy Nelson: Well yeah. And it's interesting because I I while I agree, I also think that, and maybe I maybe this is where my mind is because I think it could have been fine with the material they had with Will's wife, Molly, had they actually had a little more of that final resolution with her because, you know, they're in this situation where he had been so traumatized from his final capture of Lecter that it literally put him into a place where he had to retire from working, as an agent. Right? Like, he had to step back because it he had gotten too close, and it was too dark a space for him to be in. And she doesn't want him to go back into it, and he said he wouldn't.
And and, you know, that conversation about like, you're not even asking me, you're just, you know I mean, he's asking, but he's not really asking. He's kind of already decided he's gonna go back and do it. And then we end up in that situation where he's goes through all of the stuff with dollar hide, and then the end resolution just feels very pat. Like, she looks at his cut up and bruised face, and and they go stand by the ocean and everything. But we don't have that final connective resolution of the realities of everything that he's just gone through and kind of the the familial resolution, I guess.
And I don't know if they just kind of blithely write that off as well. He had that great conversation with his son in the grocery store, and so now everything's gonna be okay when he finally comes home. I don't know. It again, to your point, like, they could have they probably could have thinned all that out, but maybe there was a way to give us just a little bit more of a resolution there.
Pete Wright: Or or, you know, you said it, longer film. Like, I this is a movie. I'd be okay taking it to two and a half hours. Like, I just this is what I've come to expect from Michael Mann films. And, actually, you brought something up that I I realized I've never seen the director's cut.
What is what do you get? What did did the director think was important to put back?
Andy Nelson: It's a very short director's cut. And I I can already tell
Pete Wright: it doesn't solve all my concerns.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. It's only three extra minutes. Although, it's one of those director's cuts where it's three extra minutes, but there's also scenes that are completely revised and everything. You know? I don't know if there's a lot of extra stuff that gives you anything really that new or exciting.
I think that I'm trying to remember. I'm I'm looking again because I honestly I didn't watch that version this time. And I think that there are elements where there's a longer scene with the head of the, police who as they are getting ready to go out and look. Yeah. I'm not seeing really much that that says there is a big expansive change to it or anything.
Pete Wright: Okay. Well, that's disappointing.
Andy Nelson: Well, and it's interesting because it's actually sourced from a work print, and it was never actually approved by Michael Mann as an efficient and as an official version of the film. So it's not really a director's cut. It's just like an earlier cut before they kind of cleaned it up.
Pete Wright: Okay. Well, disappointing.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. I'm just I'm curious now because this is really the only film in this entire series where we're going to get an opportunity to see another version of it, you know, as we get to Red Dragon. So I'm curious, like, some of our issues because I've only seen Red Dragon once when it came out in theaters. And I'm just curious now as I as we move through this series, when we get to that, how much of these problems get answered or or don't. You know?
Pete Wright: It it does make me wanna watch Red Dragon next. And and, you know, true to the the release chronology of the books, you know, Red Dragon was the first of the books and the second of the Anthony Hopkins Lecter movies.
Andy Nelson: Third.
Pete Wright: So it it makes me a little bit wanna third of the Lecter yes. Thank you. And it it so it makes me wanna go back and and, you know, look at those out of out of context. I wonder actually how they play. I've never watched them in book order.
I think they're pretty standalone.
Andy Nelson: It just it it definitely felt like well, we'll talk about when we get to Red Dragon. It felt like because Hannibal had just come out, it felt like, man, Anthony Hopkins is getting old. But if we wanted if we wanna do a prequel to these other two movies, we better do it right away before he gets any older so that we can somewhat try to make him look a little younger. Interesting. That's kind of where it went.
Pete Wright: Yeah. Yeah.
Andy Nelson: It'll be interesting to yeah. It'll be interesting to see how it plays for sure.
Pete Wright: A thing that I didn't get just on the technical note, I did see that apparently in that final sequence, they filmed it at four different frame rates, from 24 to 60, and I don't think it's possible for me to see it as intended. My frame rate didn't change in my digital release.
Andy Nelson: Well, when he jumps through the window, that's when it goes to, 24 frames a second because it it goes real slow right there. Right? It slows down as he's jumping through the window.
Pete Wright: It slows down, but it just looks like slow motion. It doesn't look like a frame rate change. Like, when it goes to 36, 40 eight, like, it doesn't appear to be a frame rate change. And I wonder if that's because I'm watching it on the Apple TV, which has a frame rate setting that says stick to the source frame rate no matter or or stick to a fixed frame rate instead of mirror the source or the digital version doesn't actually change frame rate somehow because it never goes. It doesn't look anything else like a like a standard slow mo, that sequence.
Andy Nelson: Did you watch through it again to check that? Because I I would I would think that maybe it's just your mind telling you that.
Pete Wright: My mind is fine, Andy. How dare you?
Andy Nelson: Because I don't think because when a film is released, I mean, they're gonna release it as a film that's like 24 frames a second Yeah. Regardless of what they did in the edit at the time to actually because they're they've they've manipulated all that in the edit. It's not like Apple is getting a digital version that says, it's all 24, but this section goes to 60 and then it's at 36. Like, that's not how it works.
Pete Wright: But app that's the thing. Apple can now.
Andy Nelson: But they're they're not gonna know. Like, when when the film is submitted by the studio, the by the distributor, it's just says 24 frames. Like, they just check the 24 frame box.
Pete Wright: Or 48 or 60, whatever that single frame rate is. Yeah. Alright.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. They're not gonna say 24, accept this section.
Pete Wright: Which is what I want it to do. That's what I want it to do, is actually give me more frames. I want it to go to telenovela right in the middle and then switch back to 24.
Andy Nelson: That would be that would be interesting.
Pete Wright: Last little notes. I love the soundtrack of this movie. They used two, not one, but two Shriek Back songs, and I was a big Shriek Back fan in the day. And so it was delightful to see this movie includes Shriekback. Three Shriekback songs.
I'm sorry.
Andy Nelson: I don't think I knew any of these songs back in the day. Like, there was not a single a single song from here that I recognized. I I think the only song that now that I would say that I recognize is In A Gada de Vida. The other ones, I think, are all of the time. And in the scope of what I expect from Michael Mann, this is exactly kind of fitting into what you'd get from Miami Vice or that sort of thing where he's tapping into the musical zeitgeist of the time, putting these songs in that that kind of create mood and everything.
I think the Inagada de Vida is an interesting one because apparently, he had been in correspondence with a serial killer at the time. And the serial killer said that Inagada de Vida was their song with him and the girl that he killed. And so it was the it was like a love song to this guy. And so he thought that that was so fascinating that he wanted that song in there. I like that song.
I like listening to it. It plays well. It's a great song, but I don't think this is a soundtrack that I would probably put on. I think a lot of these songs aren't the sort of eighties classics that that I jump in and listen to regularly.
Pete Wright: Yeah. That's disappointing. I'm sorry for you.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. And I don't think I've even heard of Shriek Back before, so sorry. Oh.
Pete Wright: They've been used in a bunch of, soundtrack obscure soundtracks. I might have to build you a playlist of great shriek back songs used in movies. I'm gonna do that for you. Don't worry about it. Okay.
That'll be my assignment.
Andy Nelson: Looking forward to it. Looking forward to it.
Pete Wright: Yeah.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. I mentioned a little bit of the lighting in Dante Spanotti and everything. Any thoughts from you as far as the way that, Michael Mann is really splashing color around here?
Pete Wright: Oh my god. It's so man ish. Right? Like, it's just apart from that, first, any sequence on the beach, which is, like, natural color, we're either white, blue, green, or a dose of orange, but not very much. It's mostly white, blues, and greens.
And those blues and greens are deep, and moody. And I I I mean, I love it, and I absolutely applaud Spanati shooting across such such an incredible colorscape. But I I do see those who who see this as style over substance.
Andy Nelson: I enjoy all of the look, and this is something that I thought I suppose in the scope of man films, I enjoy this style quite a bit in this film, and so I'm totally okay with it. If if I find that there are issues that I deal with more, it's things like Will Graham's constant narration and his voice recording into his tape recorder and stuff, like so much of that, it just it really wears me down. And I imagine that it works better in the book because you can just play it in his head. But here, we get him just talking to himself so much as he's like investigating and looking at materials and and like having these dialogues with dollar height in his head, and it's just that wears on me a bit with this one.
Pete Wright: You know, it's funny. I would imagine that it would wear on me too, and it doesn't. For some reason, the fact that he's holding that tape recorder and talking, I actually find that a a fascinating and thoughtful kind of approach to his procedural bent. That that's just who he is, and I like watching him process out loud.
Andy Nelson: But he's not always he doesn't always have the tape recorder. Like, there are times where he's sitting in, the the little evidence room, and he's just talking.
Pete Wright: Yeah. I know. And it's awesome. I like the way he talks to himself. Right?
Because I I don't what's the alternative? The alternative is it's just voice over. It's just his voice in his head, and that would have been terrible, Andy. It would have been terrible.
Andy Nelson: No. I I know. Well, I'm I'm curious how it plays in when we get to, again, the remake. I'm curious what they do with that one because I can't remember. So it'll be interesting to see.
I'm guessing we're just gonna end up with a lot of the same stuff.
Pete Wright: The thing I'm actually most interested in is getting to next week talk looking at Jodie Foster, because I think Jodie Foster is at such a different part of her career in relationship to this to the Lecter character, to Buffalo Bill. I think it's a it's a really fascinating place approaching a character who is fresh out of, you know, FBI school versus Will Graham, who is a seasoned, experienced investigator. And I think that's gonna be that's gonna be this big switch for me.
Andy Nelson: Well, speaking about her, I mean, we haven't really talked about Peterson. I mean, what do you think of William Peterson? Because I I don't think I had probably seen him in much even after, like because I again, I didn't watch this probably until about the time Hannibal came out. And I feel like the only reason that I knew of who he was was because of CSI.
Pete Wright: I think that's a good reason to know who he was. Right? Like, certainly.
Andy Nelson: That's kept
Pete Wright: him busy. For sure. His contribution to to the the category is legion. Like, he's he's fantastic for for so many years. He's become kind of the elder statesman of the CSI television universe.
That's how I knew him first. I, you know, I I had seen him in that and then come back to this film, I think. And I'm always surprised and pleased when I see William Peterson. I think he's one of those, like, underappreciated character guys. I think he's really, really good in this movie, and I don't know what it is.
It feels like he might be in the uncanny valley of approachable dudes. Like, he looks too approachable. Like, he would be too easily on my friends list. You know what I mean? Like, there's no way I can believe him because he's too normal of a guy.
And yet in this this movie, I I never question Will Graham his Will Graham. I never question him.
Andy Nelson: No. I really like him. He seems like somebody I can buy him being a broken figure trying to sort himself out. You know? I think that he plays that well.
Pete Wright: There's that I mean, so much of his of of the camera's approach to him is in straight up headshot right in front of his face. Right? We either get torso shots. There's a great shot where he's standing in in one of the victim's home's bedrooms, and the light is off and it's all blue, turns on and it's white, and the blood is all over the walls, and everything is just destroyed. But our first shot of him is just torso up, and later, we get him standing next to the to a light post or something kind of mimicking, staring in a window, very close headshot, extreme close-up on him, and he always looks a little bit dizzy.
Like, he's so deeply in the head of the killer that he looks like he's he's just might fall over any second. I think that intensity is really good and and not, you know, clumsy as you might expect from my description of it. Like, I'm worried about him suffering some sort of a seizure event.
Andy Nelson: Right. A couple notes as we're gonna be kind of continuing this series. It will be interesting. We've got Dennis Farina here playing, FBI agent Jack Crawford, who returns as a different role in the FBI in the next film and a different actor playing him in the next film. Jack Crawford is a continuing character.
Lecter, I think, is a continuing character. And then interestingly, we have lieutenant Fisk, I believe was his name, and that was Barney. He'll end up being the actor who plays Barney in the later films. It's, Frankie Faison. He's actually the only actor to have been in this and then the next three Lecter films.
Obviously, he wasn't in the prequel, but but I'm just curious because he's lieutenant Fisk. He works at the Saint Louis police office where they're they're pulling up all the the pictures of all the people as they're on the the phone trying to pull everybody up. He's the guy there. So part of me wants to mentally rewrite this universe and have lieutenant Fisk actually, his first name is Barney. And after after this moment, he shifts over to work for the FBI and ends up working just as kind of like the the caretaker for the prisoners, which is where he ends up.
Pete Wright: I think that's it. I think that's what happened from here on. That's exactly what happened.
Andy Nelson: Oh, so funny. It's an interesting movie. I I do enjoy this one quite a bit in the scope of man films. It's a little rougher around the edges, but there's just a lot to like. And I enjoyed the story.
I think it's a great story, and I'm, you know, really looking forward to continuing the series and really looking forward to revisiting the remake of this, because I'm curious how that one plays.
Pete Wright: Yeah. More than any of them, I'm I'm interested in that one. I think this is a fantastic movie that just really explores that sort of thin line between good and evil. And, and I think all of the films sort of live in that territory. So this will be fun.
Andy Nelson: Yes, indeed. Alright. Well, we will be right back. But first, our credits.
Pete Wright: The next reel is a production of true story FM, engineering by Andy Nelson, music by Jakob Pietras, dog beat, Seth Parsons, Oriole Novella, and Eli Catlin. Andy usually finds all the stats for the awards and numbers at v-numbers.com, box office mojo Com, I m d b Com, and wikipedia.org. Find the show at truestory.fm. And if your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show. The city never sleeps.
But you, you need something to wear while you stay up watching heat for the fifteenth time. You walk into The Joint, the next real merch store. Dark corners, bright ideas, shirts, hoodies, mugs, all built to hold the kind of coffee that keeps you analyzing shot composition till dawn. You want auteurs? We got Curacao, Carpenter, Kubrick, Leone in English and Italian because we're classy like that.
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Did did Michael Mann get any cheers?
Andy Nelson: This was not a film that was very well received. It it, struggled with the box office and it struggled at the awards season. It only had one win with one other nomination. At the Cognac Festival du Film Policier, it actually won the critics award there. And at the Edgar Allan Poe awards, it was nominated for best motion picture, but lost to something wild.
Pete Wright: There is a cognac festival of police films.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. Right?
Pete Wright: That seems like a thing that's right up our alley. How did we not know about this? It's just police films?
Andy Nelson: Can we go to that? Is it still happening? Let's see. It so the inaugural festival's '82. It was held each year other than '91.
The festival focused on the police and crime genre, and after ninety three, featured a short film and television film competition. And then in 02/2007, the wine syndicate Bureau National Interprofessional du Cognac announced it was withdrawing its support of the twenty five year old film event. Without its main backer, the festival ended. However, another famed wine city, I don't know how you say this, Boone Cote d'Or, saw value in the format and two years later launched a successor, the Festival Internationale du Film Policia de Boone Boone. It was in Cognac, and now it's in, I don't know, B E A U N E.
The wine capital of Burgundy in the Cote D'Or department of Eastern France.
Pete Wright: Okay. Yeah. Awesome.
Andy Nelson: That would be a fun festival to go to because you're drinking wine and you're watching
Pete Wright: Watching cop movies. Police and crime movies. Yeah. Outstanding. How to do at the box office?
Andy Nelson: Well, for Mann's film, he had a budget of 14 or 15 million or 43,400,000.0 in today's dollars. The movie opened 08/15/1986 opposite the fly, armed and dangerous and the limited release of the boy who could fly. This one landed in eighth place, never really found its ground, and unfortunately, quickly disappeared from the box office. In the end, it went on to earn 8,600,000.0 domestically and a measly 1,500 internationally for a total gross of 24,900,000.0 in today's dollars. Not a great start, landing the film with an adjusted loss per finished minute of about a hundred $50,000.
But at least both Mann and Lecter got to continue moving on.
Pete Wright: It's interesting to me that it seems like the reputation of the film has actually grown over the years.
Andy Nelson: Oh, it definitely has. It was, considered quite a kind of a a stinker at the time. I don't think the critics were fans of it. And, I think that the tone, I think people just didn't know what to make of that. What we now know of is kind of that man feel with the films.
And and, yeah, I think the more that Michael Mann has kind of made his films, I think the more that this film has had had people reevaluate it.
Pete Wright: Yeah. Right. Well, I I had a ball with it. Is it the best of the series for me? No.
But it is still an entry into a universe that I find fascinating.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. And I I mean, I really enjoy this film. I definitely have a lot of problems with it, but it's a very easy film to watch. I enjoy the detective work. I enjoy kind of the the darkness of the story.
There's just a lot that works here for me. So that's easily one I will continue checking out time and time again.
Pete Wright: The typeface doesn't work for me. I don't know what it is, but it's like Comic Sans adjacent. I don't care for it.
Andy Nelson: It's it is feels like an eighties, like a eighties font that's not as not as fitting for the film as it should be. That's for sure.
Pete Wright: It screams, Manhunter, which is not what the movies should be saying. Probably not. Probably not. Alright.
Andy Nelson: Alright. We'll be right back for our ratings. But first, here's the trailer for next week's movie, Jonathan Demi's The Silence of the Lambs.
Trailer: You spook easily, Starling?
Trailer: Not yet, sir.
Trailer: He's past the others. The last cell, I'll be watching. You'll do fine.
Trailer: The killer is on the loose.
Trailer: Keeps them alive for three days. Then he shoots them, skins them, and dumps them.
Trailer: A rookie FBI agent is on his trail.
Trailer: He's got real physical strength, cautious, precise, and he's never impulsive. He'll never stop.
Trailer: But in order to track him down, she'll have to match wits.
Trailer: I'll help you catch him, Clary.
Trailer: Believe me, you don't want Hannibal Lecter inside your head.
Trailer: With the darkest of all minds. Just
Trailer: do
Trailer: your job and never forget what he is.
Trailer: Oh, he's a monster. Pure psychopath. So rare to capture one alive.
So close to the way you're gonna catch him. Do you realize that? Oh, Clarice, your problem is you need to get more fun out of life.
Trailer: You told me you don't spook easily.
Trailer: You call this easy, sir?
Trailer: Lester's missing hand or arm. Man's a raving maniac. Who knows what he'll do?
Trailer: Thank you, Clary. Thank you.
Andy Nelson: The Florida night is alive at the sound of the suburbs. The distant bark of a dog mingling with the gentle rustle of palm fronds in a warm breeze. I find myself hidden in the shadows of a well manicured lawn, my eyes fixed on the brightly lit windows of the house before me. For days, I've been tracking a suspicious figure, a lone wolf who seems to be casing the neighborhood, paying just a little too much attention to the comings and goings of the families who called this place home. My instincts, honed by years on the force, tell me that something is about to go down, something sinister and irreversible.
As I watch, the figure emerges from the darkness, moving with a sense of purpose toward the house. My heart races, my hand hovering over my radio ready to call for backup at the first sign of trouble. But as the figure approaches the front door, I notice something odd. They're not trying to break in, but ringing the doorbell, a broad smile on their face. The door opens and I catch a glimpse of the family inside, their expressions not of fear, but of warm welcome.
The figure steps inside and through the window, can see them huddled together, their faces illuminated by the glow of a computer screen. And then it clicks like a key turning in the lock. They're not planning a crime, but sharing something wonderful. The joys of the Next Real Family of Film Podcasts exclusive membership program. I can see it now, the figure animatedly pointing to the screen, extolling the virtues of early access to ad free episodes, monthly bonus content, and a vibrant community of fellow film lovers.
The family's eyes light up, their smiles growing wider by the moment. And as they navigate to truestory.fm slash join, I feel a sense of relief wash over me, a weight lifting from my shoulders. This wasn't a killer on the prowl, but a passionate cinephile eager to spread the word about the wonders of the next reel. I watch as the family signs up, their excitement palpable even from my vantage point across the street. $5 a month or $55 a year?
A small price to pay for the promise of endless cinematic delights and a sense of belonging to something greater than oneself. As I slip away into the night, leaving the happy scene behind me, I can't help but feel a sense of kinship with the figure, a shared love for the magic of the movies. And as I make my way back to the car, I find myself planning to take the plunge myself as soon as I get back to the office, joining the ranks of the next Reel's devoted members. Dispatch, this is Detective Nelson. Stand down.
False alarm. Just a friendly neighborhood film buff spreading the good word over and out.
Pete Wright: Letterbox, Dandy. Letterbox.com/thenextreal. That's where we keep all of our reviews and hearts. That's where we store them for later use. What are you gonna do with this movie?
Andy Nelson: I, do enjoy this movie quite a bit. It's a good Michael Mann film, one that I love and will return to. I feel like it's I mean, it's not it's definitely not up there with the five star films that I love from him. But and again, I I have my issues, but I still say it's a four star and a heart film for me.
Pete Wright: Four star and a heart. Okay. I struggle with this one because I don't actually know how I'm gonna review the next batch of movies. So I may have to revisit. Because I think it is a I think it could be a four star and a heart movie, but that implies that some movie coming up is gonna be less than because I don't like this as much.
And what would that be? Could this be a three star movie? Cause I need a little bit more headroom. Do you know what I'm saying?
Andy Nelson: Your issue with your stars and and and the way that it sits next to other films with stars is a wholly unique one. Wholly unique.
Pete Wright: Because what do we have? What do we have here? We've got five movies we're talking about. Is that right?
Andy Nelson: Yeah. We've got this film. We've got The Silence of the Lambs. We've got Hannibal. We've got Red Dragon.
And then we have Hannibal rising.
Pete Wright: So what if I were to tell you that you only get 15 total stars for this series? What if I were to tell you that?
Andy Nelson: I would say suck it. I don't play your silly star games, mister.
Pete Wright: Outstanding. I'm gonna start with four, and I'm gonna track my stars. Okay. I'm gonna see if
Andy Nelson: I can't wait to see how you split 15 stars among five films.
Pete Wright: I might have to shake some things up later. That's all.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. Because basically, you're allowing yourself five four three two one is what you're giving yourself.
Pete Wright: Yeah. But if I have two two star movies, then I get an extra star later. And that might did I just give it to Manhunter?
Andy Nelson: Unless you have two two star movies and no one star movie, then you're by default, you don't have an extra star.
Pete Wright: Uh-huh. Yeah. This is gonna be trouble. I might have to cheat. Yeah.
Alright. Well, I'm gonna start with four stars. I we might have to revisit this.
Andy Nelson: Yeah. Five four three two. I'm looking forward to that. Alright. Well, that averages our rating into four stars and a heart over on Letterboxd, where our account is at the next reel.
You can find me there at Soda Creek Film, and you can find Pete there at Pete Wright. So what did you think about Manhunter? We would love to hear your thoughts. Hop into the Show Talk channel over in our Discord community, where we will be talking about the movie this week. When the movie ends.
Our conversation begins.
Pete Wright: I'm gonna count all the movies that we've done on the show that I've reviewed, and I'm gonna just start at three star average. Like and I'm gonna go back and see. I'm gonna readjust so that I have a fixed number of stars that no matter what, I'm only adding three stars to each additional movie that we add. So something has to give.
Andy Nelson: That is
Pete Wright: That's my level of insanity. What's yours?
Andy Nelson: I don't I don't think anything can top that level of insanity.
Pete Wright: What's funny is I had already rated this review four stars when I first saw it years ago and or when I first rated it, and so I feel kinda stuck. I feel a little
Andy Nelson: bit You're stuck. You're in a pickle. A real pickle. I'm in a I'm in a pickle. Letterbox giveth, Andrew.
As Letterbox always doeth.
Pete Wright: Okay. I want five stars in heart. I'm going first because yours is really funny. And mine is from comrade Yui, who says, of course, man was the first to realize that the ideological structure of both the cop narrative and the serial killer narrative were identical and cyclically reinforced reinforced each other decades before the whole true crime genre was established. The institution of the police needs the serial killer as a specular fantasy.
It projects the psycho psychopathy as an manufactured industry and the serial killer as this fantasy requires the threat of law enforcement and the prison industrial complex to justify their killings, to validate their identity as an iconoclastic deviant. Manhunter is more than a simple exploration of duality. It's a broken mirror reflecting back the viewer's own social perception. Take that, Andy. Oh, wow.
Take that. Listen to that. Mic drop. It's a
Andy Nelson: good five star review. Good rock. I know. Comrade Uey.
Pete Wright: Outstanding. Alright. What do you got?
Andy Nelson: Well, I went with the one that has the most, the most likes over on Letterboxd. Hopkins and Mickelson both play Lecter with a poise and polish, but Brian Cox seems like he actually eats people. Four and a half stars by Mike Ginn. Oh my goodness.
Pete Wright: You can kind of imagine the they're writing succession, and they think, you know what would be great if we had a character that we actually thought ate people to play this part? I we have that. It's Ryan Cox. That's right. No notes.
Andy Nelson: And done.
Pete Wright: So good. Thanks, Letterboxd.