Kurt Von Ahnen (00:00)
folks, welcome to another agency action show. I'm Kurt Von Ahnen. My co-host is with me today, Toby Cryns and I think we got something really awesome to talk about today. Hey, Toby, let's just get to it, man. Tell me how your last month and a half has been.

Toby Cryns (00:14)
But not good, Kurt. It's been a challenge personally on my, you know, we'll just say in my house. It's been a challenge at work. We've been going, well, let's just say over the last month and a half, we've really shined a mirror on ourselves and noticed some things we weren't doing well. And it's really been emotionally draining for me to realize that, but also like,

take the next steps to fix that. And also to be really frank with our clients and that we haven't been doing as good a job as we wanted to, despite our best efforts. that's been probably the most part of why it's so emotionally draining is like, my whole heart and body is in this, as is my team's, to the extent that they're, that's reasonable. And we've all been really working hard and to realize that

There was, there's such a huge room for improvement where we thought we were doing really well in certain aspects has been really, it's just been really emotional and just, it's been tough. It's been a tough month and a half. And it's caused me to kind of rethink like, why am I even doing this? Because there is an easier path even within the Mighty Mo Agency. The easiest, path is like, it's just me.

I don't need, I don't need a team. don't need it. You know, I'll just do it myself. We'll scale way back. I can control every single aspect. If it's just me, I'll know exactly what I'm delivering and, I'll know the pulse of everything. I'll only have three clients rather than 20, you know, that sort of thing. so that's like the simple thing. But then when I thought about like, why am I doing this? And that causes me to like get back in it be like, okay, we're on a path to something.

Kurt Von Ahnen (01:47)
Yeah.

Toby Cryns (01:51)
What are we aiming towards? And how are we doing on that path? And in some ways, I think, like despite all this inner turmoil that I'm experiencing in this emotional, really, really tough emotional month and a half, and also physically draining because I've been investing so much more time than normal into the business to figure stuff out and having so many more meetings with my team.

Kurt Von Ahnen (02:12)
Yeah.

Toby Cryns (02:15)
to like just be like, what's going on? Tell me about this email exchange. Tell me about where this project is, what happened today. Cause I really want to understand what's going on so we can like diagnose problems and then get to the next place. But it's just been a ton of time. So I've had to like cut back on personal things for the last month and a half and really like invest more of my energy into business, which sucks. That's not my goal. Like my goal is not to spend all my time in my business, but that's what I've been doing.

Kurt Von Ahnen (02:39)
What's my goal?

Toby Cryns (02:42)
But part of this question is like, despite all that, like maybe I'm actually kicking ass right now. Like maybe this is just a growth pain to the next place and...

Kurt Von Ahnen (02:53)
Yeah. Yeah. So

I wanted to jump in on you, but I didn't want to be rude and you were on a riff. So I was going to let you keep going. first off kudos to you for being brave and honest and speaking and talking about the subject on the show, you know, where supposedly five or six people are going to hear this.

You know, I went through my thing at the beginning of the year. I went for months without making a new sale. And on top of that, got the flu and was like knocked out for like six weeks. I just I just felt like crud and same thing like the end of February is rolling around. March is coming through and I'm still feeling like crap. We're revenues not pouring in. Right. And I'm thinking to myself, hey, you know, they're opening up a new YMCA here in the city. Maybe I should be.

the director of enrollment for that. Maybe I should apply for that. Maybe there's a position for me in town. But then reality hits and I remember my corporate employment and I remember those moments where you're like, this isn't going the way I want it to, but you have no power to change it. But if you own your own thing, you do have the power to change it. And so do I want to give up being the king of all I survey, even though in moments it seems I'm not surveying much? No.

No, I don't like I keep getting driven back to I have certain freedoms and I have certain abilities and certain things and I think it's really important like I gosh the whole the whole pandemic Toby before you knew me I would get online and I would say things like we got to find the opportunity within the obstacles and you know we have to sow seed in order to have a harvest and now April came. Pretty good harvest month for us not going to lie. You know the harvest was plentiful in April.

⁓ may is looking pretty strong and I just closed a public speaking gig that came to me. I didn't even have to apply for it. It came to me because it had to do with things I was doing last year that brought that work to me now. Right. And so I think so many times we allow our emotions or our feelings in the moment dictate what success is when it's the facts that, know, the key performance indicators are completely

you know, devoid of our feelings. It's, it's, we, you, dude, you could look at your stuff and go, ⁓ this is really bad. Or you could take a look at stuff and go, Holy crap, we're kicking ass. And it's, it's hard to understand unless you're objective enough to look at it from the outside in what's really happening.

Toby Cryns (05:08)
Yeah, and I think this can be said for anybody. The perspective probably matters more than like people. There's probably people in my worst day in the last month and a half would be like, ⁓ I'm really working hard to get to a point where I have that problem.

Kurt Von Ahnen (05:13)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Toby Cryns (05:25)
I remember I

was working at ABC network news. This would have been the year 2001. I was in LA at the news desk. This is where Peter Jennings, this is for all you old timers, you'll remember Peter Jennings. That's where he worked when he was in LA. I was just an hourly employee at the desk answering the phones. I talked to Tony the tiger one time. It was great. So Tony the tiger calls me. He goes, you know, I'm just like ABC network news. And he's like,

Kurt Von Ahnen (05:46)
YARUGURU-OI!

Toby Cryns (05:50)
This is Tony the Tiger, if you believe it. I thought, because we got prank calls sometimes, I was like, there's no way, but I just happened to overhear someone down the hall talking about Tony the Tiger. I'm like, wait, maybe we're doing a story about Tony the Tiger. So I'm like, are we doing a story about Tony the Tiger? So I was like, yeah. So I'm like, okay, Tony, I'll patch you through. So I'm overhearing. I have like, at this time, I want more than anything, I wanted to go to a dentist because I just had dentists.

dentistry issues that I wanted to cure but I had no money. I'm making 13 bucks an hour, which was actually a great wage for me in LA, but not enough to pay for a dentist. I shared a house, I shared a two bedroom house with eight people. ⁓ there was a guy living in the bar in the back. Like picture a four foot by two foot, like,

Kurt Von Ahnen (06:25)
Yeah.

That sounds about how LA is.

Toby Cryns (06:41)
bar that we moved the, you know, this is like a backyard. Anyway, I overhear the lady next to me at at the ABC news desk and she's like complaining about the coverage she has for her dentist things, you know, like ABC news only provides 80 % copay or something. I'm just like, you have no idea. so I think like part of it, like,

Kurt Von Ahnen (06:56)
You're like, I wish I had dentist I wish I had that plan.

Toby Cryns (07:01)
It's good to take stock as best we can, but I admit that it's really hard for me anyway, to figure out like, how am I actually doing? Like, where am I even going? Sometimes I don't even remember where I'm going or know why I'm going. like, work is just one piece of the many shaded puzzle of my life.

Kurt Von Ahnen (07:20)
Yeah,

yeah. But there's, looking at our notes, there's like a whole other category or reason for why there might feel like some disconnection, you for you from what you've described just now, right? You have project managers. So there's a lot of stuff that happens within the mighty mode that you're not even aware of. Like you kind of find out on the backend, I imagine, right?

Toby Cryns (07:41)
Yeah. And usually it's awesome stuff. I shouldn't say usually, sometimes it's awesome stuff. Sometimes they're alerting me to issues that need to be resolved. ⁓ I would say like, took me 20 something years before I hired my first project manager. And it's an interesting role because it's just overhead. Like they're not delivering anything from, you know, in the sense that like a developer, they're doing the work and

Kurt Von Ahnen (08:01)
Yeah.

Toby Cryns (08:05)
I phrased that wrong because they're critical to what we do. Our project managers are critical. And a great project manager changes businesses. know, like a great project manager is felt throughout the organization at my size. And there are days where our project managers just in passing, so I have a stand up twice a week with one of them and they'll be like, so I sent an invoice for this and this and this. I'm like,

I don't know what you're talking about, but I understand the word you've sent an invoice. exactly. I don't know how much I'm just like, that sounds wonderful. so there's lots of good news there, but also they, so when I'm, we have, when I'm not feeling up to a client call, ⁓ it's so nice to know that my project managers are there to.

Kurt Von Ahnen (08:35)
I'm hearing revenue.

Toby Cryns (08:52)
help. Like, and I'm trying more and more to take myself out of our delivery process entirely. And the more I do that, the more I think like, this is where I want, this is where I need to go. It's my objective is to be more, you know, just kind of steering the business rather than like doing the work. And, you know, there have been times where I'm really not up for a conversation and our project, I'll be on a call with our project manager and I'm just like,

You take it. I'm going to be on the call. I'm just going to be quiet. I'm angry. I'm like on the call and whether it's the client's fault or something that happened at home, I'm angry. And I'm just sitting there smiling. The project manager is running the meeting and hopefully I don't have to say anything. But, thank you. It's been great. Bye. And in those times, it's, it's unbelievably like, I'm so grateful.

to everybody who makes that possible on our team.

Kurt Von Ahnen (09:39)
I just got to ask, because people are probably wondering in your mind, can you define or describe like what a project manager actually is? Like I consider myself the project manager of Manana No Mas. And so I bring in the jobs, I split things up, I delegate them out to team members. I'm a producing team member as well. So some of it gets delegated to myself, which I guess.

makes me not really the project manager, but in your case, you, you have people that did run the thing for you.

Toby Cryns (10:11)
Yeah. And in our case, we don't really have account managers, although technically I'm the account manager if we're going to split it up that way. Although my sales guy kind of plays the role of account manager. so I think like there, there's like seats in the project manager as a seat. And it could be in a, if you're depending on what you're doing, your project manager could be like 50 % of the time in the project manager seat, 20 % in account manager and you know, 20 % in billing or something like you can.

Kurt Von Ahnen (10:23)
Yeah.

Toby Cryns (10:40)
So I just view like, but in my case, I have a full-time project manager. Um, and actually I have one full-time, one part-time, but they're the, in that seat, their job is to simply, um, make sure the clients know exactly what's happening when it's going to be happening. Get ahead of issues as much as I can kind of understand the pipeline and keep the projects on track. Really that's their job is to make sure that communication is clear.

Kurt Von Ahnen (11:06)
Yeah.

Toby Cryns (11:08)
that our developers are getting what they need, that our designers get what they need. But a lot of that, our developers and designers are now just talking directly to the clients. And so the project manager's job is just be like, client, do you have everything you need? No? OK, who do you need to talk to? Let me facilitate that. ⁓ I'm always asking my project managers, are we on track or off track? What's the risk level today for this project?

Kurt Von Ahnen (11:25)
Yeah.

Toby Cryns (11:34)
And, you know, for a specific project, might, the risk might be high today and low tomorrow. It just kind of depends where we're at and what's happening.

Kurt Von Ahnen (11:41)
I'm curious about something else. And I'm thinking about my own personal experiences. So, ⁓ years ago, years ago, I had a client brought her on. she had, was formerly an L and D manager, right? So learning and development manager. So she had some pretty high expectations in the e-learning space. And I knew I could fulfill those, those really, really well through Mañana No Mas but she was also very specific about image design, flash, pizzazz, all these things.

And some of the content, the way she provided it didn't provide all that pizzazz and jazz, right? But, she still expected it. And she expected things like pixel perfect spacing for between the heading and the content between. And when I was first building it out, I was concerned with function, right? I just wanted the con. I just wanted to slam the content in and we can adjust it as we need, as we go for styling purposes. But I wanted to get it done. And in that process, she had become a

Concerned with my abilities. Let's just say that she was like you're obviously not artistic like I am blah blah blah right and it so there's gonna be a huge disconnect here if this product doesn't match my expectations, so we're having that that talk. Uhm, she's passionate, I'm passionate and I find that passionate people can can swing the pendulum really well between like hyper critical and like ambassador right now. It took a little bit of work.

And I, and I had another person on my team that worked with them for a little bit. That's more design oriented. and so then what this customer got to see was, my God, Kurt really is highly functional and highly good at this e-learning portion, but he's also got someone on the team on the design side. She ended up going from highly critical to one of our biggest advocates. mean, referred work to us in the whole thing. is that something that you see the

the product manager able to kind of do for you because if you're running the whole, cause I'm picturing you with your team, Toby, right? So, so you've got these positions, these seats, you call them. Does that help with your communication and clients to like, they're able to like restore confidence or, or, or bring the level up. Whereas quite honestly, just you being the only person could cause friction.

Toby Cryns (13:47)
Yeah, because there's something to be said for somebody who comes to work in the morning, they don't own the company, they don't carry the baggage that I carry every morning, they don't carry the emotional stuff, the 20 years, you know. And they just show up, they're like, I got a job to do. And my job is to get this client from point A to point B today. And a lot of times I've been just so grateful to have that team in place because

Kurt Von Ahnen (14:07)
Yeah.

Toby Cryns (14:11)
Like I said, I go to meetings sometimes and I'm just angry. Maybe I'm angry at what their client's saying. Maybe I'm angry at something my wife said to me. I don't know. Maybe I'm just angry because I woke up on the wrong side of the bed. But like for somebody whose job it is to like present confidence and like, yeah, they can help immensely. And I'm picturing your designer in this case. you know, maybe they had slightly better design skills than you, but I'm guessing.

You know, there was probably some compatibility between your skills and their skills, but there's something to be said for bringing in someone say, Hey client, I have an expert in this that's going to help you. And just that like shift, even if the person isn't that much better can change the dynamic.

Kurt Von Ahnen (14:51)
Yeah, yeah. I have a term that I use and some people get insulted, but I call things like crystals and pyramids. I'm a very, naturally I'm a very black and white kind of idealistic person. then crystals and pyramids to me is people that are like more artistic, more abstract, more whatever. And she was behaving in a very crystals and pyramids way to me. And I thought,

My designer's a little more crystals and pyramids. Let's put these two together and see if they can't agree on a design template moving forward. And then if that's established and she's happy with the design, I can go back to just the function and content, just plugging this stuff in. And that worked really well. It worked really, really well. And like I said, it was the pendulum swing that went from, she's going to be hypercritical and think I don't have what she needs to meet her expectations to.

my God, they knocked it out of the park and I got to work with an extra person and it was one.

Toby Cryns (15:42)
Yeah, and here's another example at the Mighty Mo. I'm not a huge, intuitively, I'm not a huge fan of super formal processes, like we must complete A before B, we must complete B before C. It's just not where I live in life. But what I've realized, my project managers, it's been really helpful to have them because they've created processes that are very formal. Like we need to sign off on this, we need to sign off on that, but before we do this and...

Kurt Von Ahnen (16:04)
Yes.

Toby Cryns (16:08)
It's not a great fit for me personally, but I see the value to the business. And so having someone else see that and appreciate it as part of the thing that makes their job be better, it's been, I've been super grateful for that too. Like, so this was like, as we talk about, should I hire a project manager? They bring, they can do the things that you know you need that you don't want to do because you're you, you know, or me.

Kurt Von Ahnen (16:30)
Yeah.

Well, you nailed one. You nailed one. Just what you described right there that believe it or not, I think is part of why we're able to create the revenue we create at Manana No Mas. Like yourself, I am someone that's like, I'm already in here. I'm more I can already I you know what? I can import their contacts list into the CRM right now, right? Or I'm here. I could build this this first automation that deals with this course enrollment. But

Project management says we have phase one, phase two, phase three, phase four, right? And those phases are based on revenue exchanging hands. so if I, because I'm not like process oriented like what you just said, right? If I go, hey, we're gonna install the CRM in phase one, but we're gonna populate the CRM in phase two. If I start populating the CRM while I'm still working on phase one and phase two requires another $8,000 from the client,

They're like, why am I paying you? You're already doing it. Like it just devalues. It devalues the structure you sold on. And so yeah, my, my gut, when I'm man, it's so hard. Cause when I'm working, I hit, I have ebbs and flows like everyone else that's creative. Right. And so maybe I stare at the computer for two hours and do nothing. And then all of a sudden I work, you know, at midnight till two o'clock in the morning and knock out 10 hours worth of work. Right. And I just, and I'd start going, I got to be careful to not.

break out of the phases and reduce the value of what we've sold. So then I got to get back to contact the customer and say, great news, we've completed phase one. We can start phase two early, because since we're ahead of schedule, if you want to start phase two early, we can. Just let me know and I'll pop you an invoice for that $8,000. We can get started right away. And that's the way that we keep the revenue forcing through the door. But if we don't have a project manager and we don't

hold to our process, we lose the ability to create the revenue on the timeline we have the possibility to. That was a lot to spit out.

Toby Cryns (18:24)
Yeah. Also like,

no, you're totally right. In addition to, you know, uh, the, process helping improve your standing with the client and it's something they can grab onto and everybody gets frustrated with processes at some point in the, you know, like they're, it's going to cause some frustration, but the goal is like overall, it's going to help. And similarly, we had a case just recently with a client that we've really enjoyed working with and are a great fit with.

but we realized they sent us spreadsheets to import and we thought the first one was the final. Nope, here's the second one. like, okay, great, this'll be it. We're on the sixth version, but before they sent the sixth version, I was like, I'm conversing with the project manager and she's like, I'm gonna email them and tell them this is the last version that we're gonna do for free and happy to do more, but it'll cost money. And the next version was the final version or

they're going to pay. you know, but like, also, I think like this idea of process and we're trying to get better at that too, like just setting firm and other ideas like that we've been getting more and more firm on is revision rounds. And I think it's been really helpful to let the clients know what our processes like they feel comfort in it increases like our professionalism, hopefully in their eyes, but also it sets firm boundaries about when we're going to charge when we're not going to charge. And like it sets those expectations early. And so we had a client.

Kurt Von Ahnen (19:39)
Yeah.

Toby Cryns (19:43)
recently, great client. They're like, hey, I know we signed off on the document saying we're ready to go with this, but here's the thing that we want you to tweak. And our project manager was able to say, we're happy to do that, but you already agreed to this. We're already beyond that. Here's the invoice if you want to do that. And they said, okay, we'll pay you for it. You know, like, understood.

you know, we communicated upfront. They checked the box that said anything more beyond this is going to cost money.

Kurt Von Ahnen (20:11)
Yeah. Well, and that's so important because the delineation of roles within the organization allows the, the project manager has no problem with that, right? The project manager is like, Nope, that was done. That's extra. Here's your invoice. The sales person would have like that, that connection to making the sale, right? And they, and they would have that relationship in the back of their head and they would be like, come on. It's just a quick change. Can't we just factor that in? And you as the owner, you're like,

I really don't want friction on this. Let's just make the customer happy, right? But no, people downwind that aren't part of that original relationship cycle. They're like, nope, that was done. That's extra. Here's your invoice. It's perfect. Perfect.

Toby Cryns (20:48)
And so like, yeah,

exactly. And as the owner of the agency, get to, like, it's been nice to kind of push those boundaries down my project managers and say like, no, just charge. By default, we're going to charge. Maybe you can decide to make an exception. And one thing we've been doing is created a values document recently that I shared with our team to kind of, I don't want them coming to me for everything. I want to push responsibility on them and say like,

before you talk to me, run it through this framework. And if you can make a decision based on our values, make the decision. here's like the dollar value that is within bounds. Like if you can do it for X amount of dollars and you think it fits, go ahead and do it. But also like even if it's in that value, whatever that dollar amount is, and you think it's not fair, don't do it. Set a boundary and say, happy to do it. Here's the invoice.

Kurt Von Ahnen (21:36)
Yeah, no, that's all really, really good stuff. In terms of support for those moments where you think to yourself, why am I bothering to do this? Or what is the, what's the sense? What's the purpose? How much of your drive to continue has to do with like your professional partnerships or people that you associate with away from the day to day mighty mo stuff.

Toby Cryns (21:59)
So I think the thing that keeps me going when I'm not sure is that my team is there and they're counting on me to be there and to be thoughtful, you know, for their, for their sake. And I try to be very thoughtful before, know, before doing anything rash. For example, we have a developer who's currently part-time, but some weeks he works, you know, close to full-time hours. And I've told him like, I'm trying to get you up to full-time, but I can't promise. I'm not going to bring you up there until I can promise you that.

Kurt Von Ahnen (22:09)
Yeah.

Toby Cryns (22:25)
consistently, because I don't want to bring you up and then break your heart. you know, ⁓ I've kind of like over the years, I used to care a lot about what my peers thought of Toby doing amazing things that are award winning, or is he like a, you know, Joe Schmo solopreneur? And I actually don't. Yeah, exactly. I used to care a lot about that, like, you know, 15 years ago, maybe 10 years ago, I care.

Kurt Von Ahnen (22:29)
Yeah.

Is he going to win the Etsy award?

Toby Cryns (22:51)
Hopefully close to zero about that now. I I think I'm just a more mature human today than I was definitely 20 years ago. I, my goals now, I try to frame in terms of like, how am I serving my community and my family and my community includes my clients and my employees, but how about you? do you look at that?

Kurt Von Ahnen (23:00)
Yeah.

Over the years, so when I first started, I didn't even know there was a WordPress community. mean I 1215 years a slog on the thing out before I realized there was a community. And then things changed. You know a lot of it has to with age exposure to the community. If we if we want to, you know, point that out, but it's it's like this podcast with the WP minute Matt and the team right? Like I look at that as. Yeah, great opportunity, but also an obligation right like like.

Are we under contract? No, but but are someone expecting me to come up with this content? Yes. I do the lives with lifter LMS every week, right? That that's an exposure that that's another channel. I do content with Jonathan over at WP tonic, and I do some work for WP tonic right through through Mañana No Mas And so those ties that we have those tentacles that reach out from just what we do the things that get us connected in and involved with these other organizations.

It gives me a sense of I'm not alone in this thing. I'm doing this with others. And yeah, Mañana No Mas is separate and it creates its own revenue stream and it does its own work. But the tentacles outreach to other things. And it makes me feel like makes me feel like we really do belong. Right. Like, like I'm not forcing my way into the room where I don't belong. Right. I'm not like I'm not like some dude in like Bermuda shorts and flip flops.

trying to get into a room full of guys in tuxedos, right? Like it's like, I actually belong in these circles and it feels really good to be in that space. And so in that respect, I think those professional partnerships help from a marketing perspective, obviously podcast exposure and getting to mention Manana No Mas, know, a gazillion times that that certainly helps. But it's more like, like there's tools. like,

Lifter LMS is a plugin, Gravity Forms is a plugin, Fluent Forms is a plugin, right? And by knowing and engaging with the people that make those tools, well now I feel like we're part of that exchange as well, right? And then I just gotta say, I'm in a subcontracting model, right? Most of my staff is all subcontracted. And so I'm usually job sharing with people. And so that creates relationships that are

⁓ interwoven. And so when I have those moments, like I did, you know, six weeks ago, where I'm like, God, I should just get a job. Well, what do I do with all those relationships and tentacles and webs that I was talking about, right, I'd have to several that, or at least downplay it all. And so for me, it just makes sense to keep forging forward and know that the harvest does come right, as long as you do the work, the harvest does come, it doesn't always come in the timing that you want.

But it always shows up.

Toby Cryns (25:53)
Yeah. So maybe I'm thinking about these professional partnerships, Kurt. Maybe we can end with this. Like one thing I struggle with is, and this is historically, despite my best efforts of like trying to be real and be like, my goal is to close the gap between like public Toby and the Toby that I'm, when I'm sitting at home alone on a Friday night or usually I'm not alone. Usually I'm with my kids and my family. Like, like,

My goal is that when you see me at the no code meetup, you're seeing the same person that you see on Friday. But as we were talking earlier, you know, we do this podcast and you see this all over YouTube and pocket, you know, people, everything's great. you go to some conference and somebody's presenting and they're everything's great. Everything's perfect in my business. And we never have any problems. The problems we have are like, you know, you know, the problem is I'm not.

⁓ I work too hard, you know, that's the problem, you know. But how do you be real in these conversations with professionals and how do you set yourself up to belong despite who you are, who I am? How do I set myself up despite the nuances I bring out, you know, in my.

Kurt Von Ahnen (26:44)
Yeah.

You know what? I find that I'm an oversharer because I just tell people if things suck. Because it comes up, but there's a difference in. There's a difference in like saying, things are rough right now, but we'll get through it right like like we're you know ebbs and flows. You know we're in a valley now. The mountains coming right like like I'm usually that way. I'm not like things are slow. my God, please do you know have anyone that can send us some work?

Like I just think that that is there's like a line not to cross, right? I don't want to desperate. in fact, when I look at our April and what we did sell, I didn't sell that from being desperate. I sold that from being confident, being like, we are the expert. This is our field of expertise. This is our specialty. We're going to knock this out of the park for you, but it's going to cost this much. Right. And

These sales don't happen when you're hat in hand and desperate, right? So I think when we're sowing seed and we're building our equity and our value in the space, I think it's really important if things are slow revenue wise, not to get caught up in that and allow yourself to become desperate. You have to recognize that that whole time you weren't selling, you were building the value that is gonna sell. That's the hardest thing. That is the hardest thing.

I remember like yesterday, you the reason I'm doing this whole apprentice program to teach people how to run a successful agency is I remember begging people to let me build them a website for 500 bucks. And then them coming in with all kinds of crazy asks like, you know, I want a custom slider. Now I'm remember I'm talking like 18 years ago, right? So I want a custom slider. want, I want a gradient background. I want all these things that I'm trying to figure out. how do I code that in the back of the

of the they called it the editor and WordPress, right? You go back and you get the code and all that stuff. What a nightmare. And I did it because I was a moron. And then I ran into people five years, six years later that looked at me dead in the eye and went, you built that? Dude, that's like a 50 or 60 thousand dollar website. What did you charge for that? I'm like, twelve hundred dollars. And they're like, you're a moron. You're the reason that people are cheap. You're the reason people keep trying to drive down

the value of what we do, it's because there's people that'll do it cheap, you know? And I had to learn the hard way that I had to justify my expenses and my charges and all that stuff.

Toby Cryns (29:15)
Yeah, well, thank you. Let's tell us how people can get in touch with you, Kurt.

Kurt Von Ahnen (29:18)
LinkedIn. I'm the only Kurt Von Anan on LinkedIn. You can reach me there or better yet come to mananannomas.com and see what we offer over there. Toby, you.

Toby Cryns (29:27)
Also on LinkedIn, my last name is C-R-Y-N-S, first name Toby. You can find me at themightymo.com. Make sure to like and subscribe and whatever you kids are doing these days, because it helps the algorithm. So thanks everybody.