This is the EWN Podcast Network. When Jeff and Sammy Kinder lost their home in the Marshall Fire in Boulder Country County, Colorado, they had a long and arduous road ahead of them to rebuild. The reality that the hardest part of the rebuild is in getting the funds you are owed from your insurance company and through the mortgage company to your architect, builder, and everyone else is today's discussion on From Disaster to Dream Home.

Welcome to From Disaster to Dream Home, the podcast that takes you inside the home building and rebuilding process. When interior designer, Jana Rosenblatt, had an 80 foot tree fall in her house, she saw the opportunity to create the customized home of her dreams. From Disaster to Dream Home provides you with the information and resources Jana wished she had during her rebuilding process. Now she's sharing with you the expertise of leading architects and home builders and the newest products and materials on the market. Here's your host, Jana Rosenblatt.

Welcome back, home builders and remodelers, to another episode of From Disaster to Dream Home, the podcast that will take you through the process of building or rebuilding a new home from the ground up in 52 episodes. If you are rebuilding after the loss of your home or building a new home from the ground up, each episode of From Disaster to Dream Home will help you know what you and your design team will need to do to make the construction process fluid. And your home can rise from the ashes. This is part two of our conversation with Jeff and Sammy Kinder about the rocky road of the insurance and financing prop process they found while rebuilding their home after losing it to the Marshall Fire on 12/30/2021 in Boulder County, Colorado. For part one, please go to our website, wwwfromdisastertodreamhome.com.

In both of these informative episodes, we want to help you understand how to read your policy before you ever need it and find the people who can help you decipher it when you do need it. You need to know the questions you need to ask because if you don't ask, they will not tell you. And you might have a lot of funds hidden in the language of the policy which could be used as they are supposed to be to rebuild your home. Our guests today, survivors Jeff and Sammy Kinder, have risen like phoenix birds from the ashes of the Marshall Fire disaster. So Jeff and Sammy, how long did it take to get enough information from your insurance company about your total coverage and adding up all the different pockets of insurance that you could apply to understand the potential budget for your project to begin the design process with your architect and builder.

Can you outline that process for us at that at what point did you know what you had to work with?

We were pretty lucky because we were able to figure that out fairly quickly because we were paid out so quickly Mhmm. That we knew what we were paid out before we even picked a builder. And so that we were lucky in that regard.

And how did process of picking your builder? I mean, was that part of the budgeting process?

Yes and no. We the Markel Home Builders here in they're a regional builder here in Boulder County, and we had always liked their fit and finish and their design, you know, the the feel of their homes. And so we were both comfortable with them as as a good envelope to start with. But quite frankly, what it take us till it it was four or five months because we looked at, okay. What if we rebuild the house that we had?

And we talked to the original builder who had built the house. So we that we were at an open house, you know, looking looking at at the possibility of of going with Markel as a builder. And we actually ran into the original owner of the home that burned down here, and they were the ones that had built the house twenty years ago. And and so, you know, she had great stories to tell us about the builder and the neighborhood.

And Yeah.

So we took that into account. We talked to other builders. Yeah. And and and so, again and this is something that, again, people have to kinda understand. Yeah.

Depending on the builder that you go with, that really impacts what you come out of pocket with upfront.

That's

true. Because we were going with a regional homebuilder who already does a lot of subdivision work, already had all of his subcontractors ready to go, already had their this was a house that had it was the first time they ever built this house, but it was still a house that was already designed. So a lot of the architectural engineering, you know, soft costs that if you're gonna rebuild from scratch or if you're gonna rebuild something totally custom, that are gonna be additional costs upfront and out of pocket, additional decisions that you have to make because not only do you have to decide what it is you're building, you know, which architect am I gonna use to build it? Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, you know, which designer am I gonna go with to kinda give me a clue as to what this interior is gonna look like? You know? Who do I you know? So by going with a regional homebuilder who who was a production builder, a lot of that stuff got included in the price, if you will.

Which is

So is

why you guys are number 52 on the occupancy approvals, and there are still 500 houses to go.

Exactly. That's why we're here and they're not, you know, because yeah. And and that's a decision, you know, that we had to make. If if you don't have a production builder who has a product that you can start with, you know, it's a you know, pluses and minuses all the way through. So that that was actually a part of the the design decision that Sandy could probably talk a lot more about than than I can.

But, you know, we really weighed pros and cons with, very seriously, three different builders before we ended up going with Markel, and it was probably a four month process. Again, we were lucky. They had a big builders' emporium.

Yeah.

And and so all these builders came, and we met in a big convention hall. You got a chance to talk to a lot of different people.

Yeah. A lot of people would simply be overwhelmed by that and go home and put their head under the pillow. You guys remained proactive, which is amazing. So, yeah, we will be talking to you both, and Sammy in particular, about the design aspects in another episode coming up. But meanwhile, back at the insurance, were there any coverage aspects or exclusions on your policy that surprised you once you began the claims process?

Were there things missing?

It got to be a moot point, mainly because we were underinsured. And so, you know, you you you you whether you pay for a % replacement or whether you pay for replacement value or whether you add up add in inflation factors and whatever, at the end of the day, there is a finite amount on your insurance policy. You know? Yes. They didn't make you I didn't make us itemize all of our things in order to get to, you know, the total amount of our personal property insurance.

But the total amount of our personal property insurance was everything that we paid for. But just because we lost more than that, we still couldn't get it back because that's what we paid for, was that amount insurance. You know? Even though we had solar, we had inflation, we had all these other buckets, You add all of those things up, and sooner or later, it gets to be a bigger number than 285, but it was still not what it took to replace it all. So we couldn't replace all our per we didn't replace the personal value of our personal property.

We couldn't replace the total cost of rebuilding the house. So all of those things that, yeah, they they didn't give us any kind of consideration for all of Sammy's tools. You know, she's a she's a jeweler and a metalsmith, and and, you know, the amount of tools in her studio would make you weep if you knew what she lost. It it was a huge personal triumph for us because my nephew, you know, who's built like the rock, you know, went down into the the the basement, waded through waist deep soot and ash and kicked around in there until he found Sammy's anvil. You know?

And so he pulls this hundred pound chunk of steel out of the out of the ashes, and that's one of the few things that we actually recovered from the house. And and it was, you know, not a big monetary thing, but it was a it was a big personal boost for us to get that back. But, no, all of those things you know, if you get a special rider for your, you know, your $5,000 tennis bracelet or, you know, if I had a rider yeah. I mean, you see the one guitar, which I'm glad we saved. This one was actually given to me by a a relief worker because they they had it in their little place where, you know, people donated a bunch of stuff and Uh-huh.

You know, we were going in there looking for, you know, the do you like my shirt? It's new. You know? I mean, we were going in and looking for the, you know, the next set of clothes to have, and they they had this guitar there. And I picked it up, and I was playing on it, and they just handed it to me and said, here, you you need another guitar.

I mean, that's

Yeah. Amazing.

It's a gratitude thing. But Yeah. All of those extra riders that you get, if you don't have enough in the total policy anyway, it doesn't matter.

So then once you had a had an approved plan and began the building process, what were some of the challenges you faced with the distribution of funds? Were there ever any times that you had a stop? I had a stop on my project once for about three or four weeks.

Yeah. I can go back. We we we've built some, commercial, properties and and some industrial properties, and so I'm very aware of how that whole draw process, that most people have to work under work under. And and it happens for so many silly reasons because, maybe your homebuilder, you know, didn't pay the electrician on time. And so the electrician, you know, they these guys, you know, they'll they'll file a lien at the drop of a hat.

So then when the bank is getting ready to give you your your next distribution check or if the mortgage company is giving you some of your money back, if there's a lien on title, they won't give it to you. Yeah. And and if they don't give it to you, well, then everything stops. And so most of the reasons why construction stops, it's probably not even your fault directly. Right.

But it's this whole, you know, trying to understand how many people have so many balls in the air that you can't control that will impact the way that that your house finally gets done. You know, the bay the biggest frustration for us, obviously, was the way that the mortgage company that you know, they they they didn't give a percent of completion, you know, based on the on the prorated value, you know, to give them the enough value in this house to cover their mortgage anymore. They did as a percentage of the total construction. So it you know, they gave it you you know, here's 40¢ on the dollar, 40 cents on the dollar. That's that's how we got paid back all the way to the end.

We did not have to deal with a construction loan, so we were very fortunate for that. And and

You were able to work around that.

Yeah. Yeah. That's great. We were.

Right. But

that's Again, it's kind of the it's a it's a bit of the good old boys club because this guy's a you know, he's a regional developer, and, you know, a couple of his friends happened to be a couple of my friends that they were able to say, you take care of these guys. You know? And so maybe where there had would have been bumps in the road, we didn't have so many.

Yeah. That's great. And so then I know that you sound like you had an amazing experience with Allstate for your insurance, but were there any points where you felt the insurance company was not being supportive, and how did you handle those situations?

Only when, again, they they gave us everything that we knew how to ask for, but nothing that we didn't. And so, you know, to that end, it's that was a bit of a disappointment. You know? It's almost like you had to catch them at their game in order to finally get the full value of everything that you paid for with your insurance company. So even though they were very supportive, they were still very much an insurance company.

Business. They're they're a business. And we're glad that when we caught them, they they said okay because most of the other insurance companies just said no. And and and that's brutal. Yep.

You know, I I could tell bad stories, but I won't, you know, bother any specific company. But you see a lot of them on TV, and I just wanna, like, throw something at the TV when I see their commercials now because I know how badly they've treated a lot of my friends and neighbors.

Yeah. It's it's just so challenging. I I don't know how I mean, at one point in my process with my insurance assigned adjuster, I I just looked at her and I said, you know, I I think that if we met in under different circumstances, we might even be good friends, but, you know, I just can't believe that a human being is is looking at the situation this way. So was there any point where you actually consider the possibility of not rebuilding?

No. For for us, again, we were we were lucky that, you know, we had a few bucks in the bank, and and and we could carry the, you know, the the cash flow required. Right. And I also understood early on. I didn't understand that when I bought the policy, I didn't understand it till the disaster happened.

But having Mike and Scott and and the guys from Renew and and I I knew from very early on that all those other buckets were not applicable unless you actually rebuilt. You know? So if we'd have taken, you know, the 200 and bucks the table.

Yeah. Yeah.

Walked away Right. Yeah. We'd have we would have left a lot of money on the table.

Right. I mean, thousands and tens of twenties of thousands of dollars.

Exactly. One more zero and you're there.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I'm it's harder for me to concede that. But, yes, it's true, and that's substantial into, you know, the value of everything you have.

So I Which is why this they you know, the developers were able to buy these lots and build, you know, four brand new homes and still make a lot of money on them, selling them to new people because Yeah. They were able to take the the value of those things that those poor un underinsured people were not able to to take. It's it's just equity up in smoke. Literally, equity up in smoke.

Do all that while people who are rebuilding are, you know, still in the middle of you know, in the beginnings and middles of the process. So how ultimately, how long were you actually out of your home?

A year and yeah. Twenty two months.

Yeah. A year and ten months.

So twenty two months? Mhmm. Very good. That's amazing that you got through the process that quickly.

And as you already noted, we were one of the first ones back. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Amazingly so. And looking back, is there anything that you wish you had done differently in terms of the insurance before and after?

Yeah. I yeah. I I wish I would have understood, you know, how much it really does cost to replace everything that you have. Uh-huh. You know, I mean, the balance sheet says, you know, we lost a lot of money, but, you know, my heart tells me we lost a lot more.

You know? And and money isn't everything, but, you know, talk to your agent about all these other little buckets because it's not that much more in the premium, you know, to just pad things up a little bit. And and, you you know, it's risk and reward. Not everybody lives in a fire zone. I certainly didn't live in a fire zone, but my house burned down anyway.

You know? But at the end of the day, just understand what it is that you are getting. And when you talk to an insurance agent and when you talk you know, I'm sure you can go out there on the inner tube and really get some, some feedback as to who actually does pay you.

Yeah.

When something happens, you know, these poor people next door, you know, the again, it's it's Mike and Scott that are just telling me that, you know, insurance companies know that every time that they say no, 25% of the people just go away. So they say no again, and now 50% of the people are gone. They say no again, no again, and no again, and that's why they're going to court. And they probably won't get a real settlement offer until the trial's done. That's cost them tens of thousands of dollars and more than two years now out of their pocket.

But the insurance company knows if they just say no, most of people go away. They take the money and run.

Yeah. It's, it's so incredibly daunting and certainly nothing we've ever asked for it, you know, when we're faced with it. So how has the experience changed the way you approach insurance and home safety now? Are there any aspects of the policy, add ons, or additional coverage that you recommend based on your experience?

So, again, do the research and make sure that you understand who is actually gonna pay you for the things that that you're purchasing with your insurance company. But things like, how long is it gonna take you to rebuild, the standard is they'll they'll house you for one year. Definitely pay for two years.

Right.

If you get the option, pay for three. It's not that much more money. Definitely look at inflation riders because the amount that they're gonna come up with out of their book is gonna basically build you a nice starter home in in a traditional subdivision. If you had a little nicer kitchen, if you've already upgraded your bathrooms, if if, you know, whatever that value is to your home, be sure that you understand what the value of what it is that you've added on. If you've got solar on top, if if you've done, you know, a great job with with textures, with window coverings, with whatever, just make sure that you understand what you really have and know that the number that they're gonna give you is not gonna be enough to cover it.

So get at least 20%, maybe 30% more, yeah, of your inflation factor. Make sure that you understand that your policy is also gonna have money for cleanup. It costs $40,000 to clean all the ashes and foundation and and hazardous icky stuff off of our lot, and not every insurance company has that kind of debris removal. Do you have debris removal?

And so did you have debris removal?

We did. We had debris removal. And and

Those pots that you you refer to them as pots, those those chunks of, different Yeah. Buckets. Yeah. That that's what you were saying. Those are in addition to the $2.87 per square foot?

Yes.

And that's what raises the amount enough to actually cover, you know, give you a chance in heck to actually get your house built.

Yes. Yes.

Got it. Got it. Yeah. That's really important. And so

But but those pots are only applicable if you actually do rebuild. If you don't rebuild, you get the $2.85 and you lock in.

And you've been paying for that insurance, but you're choosing not to use that benefit.

Correct.

Right. Which, you know, is not something you'd wanna intentionally do, but if you can't, if you don't have the ability to

Yeah. Because your mortgage company took all of your equity away from you. Because you know, I mean, there's a there's a lot of reasons why people can't do it, but it's mostly has to do with the way your mortgage and your insurance are are structured like that. Yeah.

Yeah. It's overwhelming. So so now, I mean, you guys seem to have come through it, you know, really strongly. How did, the two of you work together as a team through this harrowing process?

Yeah. I'll just thank god for Sammy right now. Yeah. I mean, that's that's that's you know, it's it's kinda like, you know, you wake up some mornings and you go, so when when is this over? You know?

And she would just flap me around and say, this is not the Bob Newhart show. You're not gonna wake up tomorrow and Suzanne Blachette's gonna be in bed with you. You know? I mean, this is gonna go forever. You know?

You've gotta you gotta move forward. And and so you get gratitude every place that you can find it because so many people are helping you, because each other are helping you, and and also understand who's got the strength. So, you know, we've built some things. I've got some business things. But, you know, when it comes to actually trying to design something or or, you know, what what so let's create a new life.

What's that gonna look like? Don't ask me. You gotta ask her. You know? And so you just understand Yeah.

She is the creative one, and and we we you gotta recognize each other's strengths, and you also have to recognize what strengths even between the two of us, we don't have and reach out and find the resources that you need. They're out there, but, again, you gotta understand what what it is and how to get it.

Yeah. So the Kinders had not only their home in the path of the flames, but their business, Advantage Self Storage. Were any of your multiple locations in the path of the fire?

Thank goodness. No. There was one a couple miles south, but but all of the all of the locations were spared. And that and that's the other thing when you talked about having your your video of all your stuff in the house being stored off-site.

Yeah. Right.

We all have that capability right now. It's called the cloud. And so Right. You know, don't save anything on your computer. Yeah.

Don't save anything on your computer anymore. Get it up in the cloud where somebody could steal it, but at least it's still gonna be there.

You know? Yes. Hopefully, they won't want the pictures of your house. But, yeah, that's, amazing. Well, Sam, Sammy and Jeff, thank you so much for your honesty and your candor, on both of these episodes.

It's such a tough subject. We will be having you back, to talk about the fabulous creative process, and I'm just dying to talk about those things. Amazingly, having lost their home and everything in it, the Kinders have found a way to give back to the community by making storage units available for others in the rebuilding process. For information about Advantage Self Storage located in six states, go to www.advantagestorage.com to check out a location near you. I cannot imagine the additional emotional, physical, and financial toll the total loss of your home entails.

Our home was red tagged, we were out for fourteen months, but we had a house to rebuild. You had to navigate the process we discussed today, organize what you needed to live every day, run a business, and somehow find the time, energy, and emotional strength to embark on, building a new home from the ground up. That last part, the rebuilding of your home, is what we'll, delve into on another whole episode of From Disaster to Dream Home. As always, you can find a link to our guest's business at Advantage Self Storage on our on our website, www.disastertodreamhome.com, where you can find all of our previous episodes and photos of each step of the construction process. Janet Design Interiors is a full service interior design firm working with commercial and residential clients.

If you are thinking about a company move or a major home renovation or rebuilding after the loss of your home and you are in Southern California area, please reach out to janna@jannadesigninteriors.com.

Thank you for joining us on this episode of From Disaster to Dream Home, the podcast that takes you inside the home building and rebuilding process. Each week, we bring you time tested practices practices and the latest trends through conversations with top professionals in the building industry. You can find other episodes of From Disaster to Dream Home at ewnpodcastnetwork.com as well as Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Audible, and most other major podcast streaming services. Need design help? You can contact us or find out more about our guests at fromdisastertodreamhome.com.

Until next time, let us guide and inspire you as you create the home of your dreams.