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Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.

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I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling

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author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.

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Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge

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thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.

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I have a request.

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If you like what we do, please
like, subscribe, tell a friend.

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It really helps us get this work done.

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As you might know from my
books, I'm an autism dad.

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And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several

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equine assisted, neuroscience
backed certification programs.

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If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.

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com.

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So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.

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Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.

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Most of us who work in this field
either work with kids or who might

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have a variety of neurocognitive
conditions, sometimes mixed with

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physical or young adults with anxiety.

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I, you know, young adult autism, that
sort of thing, or, you know, perhaps

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trauma and also perhaps veterans,
you know, but there's a whole other

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group out there that I think a lot
of us don't work with because it's,

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it's really a specialized thing.

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And so we're very lucky to have Leanna
Tank here who's an occupational therapist

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from Grand Rapids, Michigan, but also a
very accomplished horse, woman and works

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in the equine assisted field as well.

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And she works with a population
that I think most of us would

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feel intimidated to work with, let's
say and takes it in her stride.

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And so I want to delve
into Leanna's Toolbox and.

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What, what makes her able to
do this and to do it so well.

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I'm gonna let her explain what she does.

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So without further ado big drummer
of the amazing Leanna Tank, one

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of my great heroes, actually.

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You are one of my great heroes.

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Leanna, can you, can you talk to us
about who you are and what you do?

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Leana Tank: Sure.

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Yeah.

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So, yeah, thank you for having me here.

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It's quite an honor to be included.

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You've had many, like brilliant,
amazing people on this podcast,

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so it's great to be here.

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Yeah, I mean, I, I'll say first off that
the population I work with does struggle

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with some pretty extreme the extreme
end of the mental health continuum and

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the challenges that people can can face,
you know, in the course of their lives.

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And that can be a little bit
shocking to hear about as, as

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just like a regular person.

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So I just wanna validate that
and just give people a little

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bit of a warning or a heads up.

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Like, like the, the challenges of the
people that I work with are quite extreme.

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I work in.

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Residential behavioral health.

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So these are programs for
people who need 24 7 support in

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the community, staff support.

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They come to us from the state
psychiatric hospitals, the prison

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system, criminal justice system.

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They have different diagnoses
like schizophrenia, many on the

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autism spectrum, personality
disorders, cognitive impairments.

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Many, many, you know, a lot of they
might have dual diagnoses, so they

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might have schizophrenia and a cognitive
impairment and things like that.

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Many

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have committed crimes and so they're
part of part of their, part of their

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treatment because they have been found
not guilty by reason of insanity is

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to come and work in our programs.

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So those are, that's the population
of people that I'm working with,

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and they really are people who
are on the margins of society.

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They really don't have a voice.

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They're really not talked
about something I find.

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Quite often when I'm meeting
people and they're asking

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me like, oh, what do you do?

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Who do you work with?

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And I I tell them people
are often not very curious.

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I don't get a lot of other questions.

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I think it it, they make
people uncomfortable.

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I think in our culture we are not great
at looking at that like darker side

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of our natures in ourselves or in,
in, just like the culture in the, in

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the, in our society, we want to kinda
label them as other and as monsters

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and we want to send them off to jail.

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We wanna punish 'em.

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We want to stick them in the state
hospitals or say that they're

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evil and send them to hell.

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And they really get defined, I think,
by the things that they've done because

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they, that it can be pretty extreme.

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But in my experience, like
they are not what they've done.

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They're, they're honestly,
they're like the most sensitive

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and vulnerable of all of us.

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They're they're kind of the,
the part of our society that is.

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Hearing the burden or paying the
cost of like the breakdown of

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our, our care systems and our
kind of social support network.

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And they are the ones who are
growing up in the foster care system.

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They're the ones born to families
that maybe they were exposed to drugs

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and alcohol and utero, and they were
born with a nervous system and a brain

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that's just wired really differently.

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And then from the get go, they're already
in these institutions and systems.

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There are really, really sensitive
neurodivergent folks that just

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get taken advantage of or put in
the wrong place at the wrong time.

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And really they, they, they could
be any of us, you know, like any of

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us are capable of those extremes.

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If we're put in the right set
of circumstances or we're one

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calamity away from a brain injury
or a serious condition, that

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dismantles our ability to regulate
ourselves and control our behavior.

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And I think it is hard for somebody
with a, a brain that is fully in control

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and, and, and capable of managing.

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Fight and flight reactions to
understand what it's like to be

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someone living in the world that
doesn't have that same capability.

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So, so yeah, like I, I really want to be
able to do them justice and be able to

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kind of express what's, you know, very,
very human, fully human, fully unique,

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creative, interesting, you know, people,
they are, and I absolutely love working

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with 'em, and I find it to be incredibly
fulfilling and interesting every day.

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So, so yeah, I'm glad to be
able to be here and try to

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be a good advocate for them.

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Try to be a good voice for them because
more and more I see actually less and

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less of a place for them in our culture.

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Our culture kind of wants to, to
pretend that they're not there.

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So

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Rupert Isaacson: let me
play devil's advocate then.

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I mean, you, you, you let slip two
words, I think, which were good clues.

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One was monsters and
the other was extreme.

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Just to be clear, I don't
want to trigger people.

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Are these people who have done
things that society would de

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monstrous or that we would.

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With good reason, say that's
monstrous and it and extreme.

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And then if that's the case, how does
the act of doing something monstrous,

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which perhaps cost somebody else their
life and perhaps cost somebody else their

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life in a horrible way, how does that not
define the person who committed the act?

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I think that's a fair question
that many people would ask in that.

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So whether or not one should
ask that question, I think

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it's a natural question to us.

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What, what do you say to that?

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Because your perspective is so unique.

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Leana Tank: Yeah.

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You know, and I've worked with a
number of people who have you know,

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committed crimes of that level of
severity who have done things like that.

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You know, for the folks that I'm
working with, with their mental health

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conditions, often they're in a state
of like psychosis or extreme distress

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when something like that happens and
and then they're left really you know,

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dealing with the trauma of that event.

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I will say, you know, humanity
is extremely, adaptable

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and extremely resilient.

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I have worked with people who have
been through things, you know, either

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things they've done or things that they
themselves have experienced that are just

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kind of beyond imagining and they move on.

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I think that a big part of, of healing
the, the trauma of something like that,

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that has happened and I've, I've been
able to like witness this process.

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Like it's been such a privilege
to like, be part of it and witness

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it is moving from being defined by
that thing that happened and kind

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of being always hypervigilant to
reminders of what happened or, you

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know, per, you know, that that guilt
or that having that self-perception

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colored by those events and through
through kind of that healing process.

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And a lot of it is relationships with
somebody who can be very nonjudgmental,

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who can help them see themselves
in different ways and, and also.

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Organize those events and organize
kind of what happened and understand

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it through the lens of how their
mental illness affected them.

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And, and you know, just, just trying
to find a different perspective on it.

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See people be able to integrate those
events, kind of figure out the lessons

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that they've learned figure out how
to kind of come into alignment with

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what happened and how they, what, how
they are going to use those things

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to come forward and help others.

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And honestly, something I've seen
several different times, and this is

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how I know that a person is kind of
on that, on that path towards more

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integration and more healing, is that
they will tell me that they want to

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help others and they want to use what's
happened to them to support other people.

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And they will kind of even take
those other people under their wing.

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They'll be.

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A positive impact on the other
people that live in those programs.

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They'll kind of be a mentor.

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They will take on that role.

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So that's something
I've seen several times.

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It's really something.

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Yeah,

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Rupert Isaacson: I guess what,
so that people can get their

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head around it because it's
outside most people's experience.

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Most of us, if we think of someone
has done something monstrous and

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they're locked up the first, you
know, it's, it's, it is usually a

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Hollywood type of idea that comes in.

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So I think the first picture
that a lot of people would

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have would be Hannibal Lecter.

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Mm-hmm.

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And so the Hannibal Elector explains
in great clarity and detail and with

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a sense of vindication that he's
right for having done what he did

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and to do what he still wants to do.

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Which of course is what makes him scary.

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'cause he's not just that he does
these things, but he thinks them

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through and he plans them and,
you know, executes them as well.

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I think it's very difficult for
people not to have that idea.

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And however, as you pointed out, these
are people who were actually found not

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guilty because of their mental conditions

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in, in the English.

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Lexicon English, English lexicon
of British English lexicon

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of sort of criminal justice.

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I think what we call that is
if someone, it's premeditated,

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it's malice, a forethought,
you know, that's the difference

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between murder and manslaughter.

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I think for example if somewhat it was
planned out, it was done in cold blood,

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it was rather than in the heat of the
moment somehow, or blah, blah, blah, blah.

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Of course adding psychosis to
this is a whole other thing.

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And

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is that something, which I think there
needs to be a greater understanding of

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that psychosis can sort of happen to
people and that when someone is in that

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psychotic period, they're not who they
were when they were not in that thing.

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And then you also said something which
made me prick up my ears, which is

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that one might be just one calamity
away from something that happens to

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you that, an injury that causes that.

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And I think you put your finger
on something there, because I,

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I do know people who sustained
head injuries, who then went on

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to do really quite crazy things.

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And that seemed cruel and uncaring.

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Because some part of their brain had
been damaged and, and, and this could

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actually be sort of traced and traumatic
brain injury and criminal behavior.

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Actually it's one of these areas
that's getting more studied now,

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but I don't think there's a lot
of understanding of wider society.

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But this of course is
your bread and butter.

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Can you just talk to us a little
bit about this difference between

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premeditation and non premeditation
psychosis and nons psychosis?

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How you can be one person in one
moment and another person and

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another traumatic brain injury.

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I think this is really useful for,
particularly for people in our field.

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Leana Tank: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And I think it's important to point out
that people with mental illness are much

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more likely to be victims of violence
than to actually be violent themselves.

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That's very true.

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They are like three, I just saw these
stats like three times more likely

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to be victims of a serious assault.

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Mm-hmm.

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And then more than half, I think
of like police killings in the

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US are towards people with a
mental illness or, or disability.

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And that's a lot of the folks that
I know that have gotten wrapped

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up in the criminal justice system.

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It's altercations with police.

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They were, you know, being unusual in
public or something, you know, and I.

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The police were called and the police
don't understand the mental illness

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and they escalate and, and, and this
happens all the time, all the time.

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There's just not a good understanding.

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But I think to go to what you were
asking about, you know, with something

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like psychosis which many people with
schizophrenia may experience but also, you

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know, people can have psychotic episodes.

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When you have bipolar disorder, certain
medications can induce psychosis.

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People, older adults, when they are in
the beginning stages of like Alzheimer's

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and dementia, can be pushed very easily
into psychosis, just with a little bit

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of a change in their body chemistry.

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They get a urinary tract infection
and they start experience psychosis.

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And psychosis is really a disconnect
from like a shared reality.

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So, there's different like
chemical processes that go on in

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the brain and it can be different
depending on that diagnosis.

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But people will develop delusions.

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So ideas that.

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Are not like logical or
what we would deem logical.

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They might, sorry.

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They might have hallucinations.

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So they might see things
that other people don't see,

00:17:49.044 --> 00:17:50.059
Rupert Isaacson: hear
voices in their head.

00:17:50.439 --> 00:17:50.659
Leana Tank: Yep.

00:17:50.724 --> 00:17:54.284
They might hear voices in their
head that seem very, very real.

00:17:54.284 --> 00:17:59.564
And I've worked with people who
are extremely distressed by the

00:17:59.564 --> 00:18:04.784
voices they hear in their head and
can barely maintain a conversation

00:18:04.814 --> 00:18:06.314
because they're so distressing.

00:18:06.614 --> 00:18:11.534
And then I've worked with people who
really enjoy their, the voices that

00:18:11.534 --> 00:18:17.394
they hear or might perceive people
around them that they see as like

00:18:17.394 --> 00:18:20.604
their family or like their friends,
and they find them very comforting.

00:18:20.784 --> 00:18:22.254
There's different levels of insight.

00:18:22.254 --> 00:18:28.164
Some people can kind of be a little bit
aware that they are not experiencing

00:18:28.164 --> 00:18:29.874
like the same reality as other people.

00:18:29.874 --> 00:18:34.564
And then some people have absolutely no
insight at all and there's no arguing.

00:18:34.564 --> 00:18:37.594
So there, there's different
shades and levels to it.

00:18:37.694 --> 00:18:42.559
I think when it becomes an
actual dangerous situation is

00:18:42.559 --> 00:18:45.604
when it is really fed by fear.

00:18:45.604 --> 00:18:49.834
So when the person is in an
extremely fearful state, when the

00:18:49.834 --> 00:18:56.124
delusions or the hallucinations are
terrifying and scary, sometimes they.

00:18:56.604 --> 00:19:03.024
Present as like demonic or they
present as they're being persecuted.

00:19:03.624 --> 00:19:07.754
That's when you worry a little bit
about violence because the person feels

00:19:07.754 --> 00:19:09.284
like they have to defend themselves.

00:19:09.824 --> 00:19:11.654
So it's usually pretty.

00:19:11.654 --> 00:19:11.744
Right.

00:19:12.189 --> 00:19:16.844
Rupert Isaacson: And if they you a demon,
then all bets are off in that moment.

00:19:17.234 --> 00:19:17.684
Yes.

00:19:18.284 --> 00:19:18.344
Leana Tank: Yeah.

00:19:18.344 --> 00:19:24.404
And any person, if you can kind
of like for an empathy experiment,

00:19:24.404 --> 00:19:30.554
you know, imagine if you truly,
truly believed that a demon was

00:19:30.554 --> 00:19:34.604
coming for you and, and saw it.

00:19:34.634 --> 00:19:38.794
I mean, it, it's, it's a
very multisensory experience.

00:19:38.794 --> 00:19:46.134
So your entire body's sensations
will perceive this as reality.

00:19:46.284 --> 00:19:50.784
And the parts of your brain that are
gonna check that and say, maybe this

00:19:50.784 --> 00:19:52.914
isn't happening, they are just offline.

00:19:54.294 --> 00:19:54.504
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:19:54.504 --> 00:19:57.774
I think, I think it's, it's easy to
underestimate the power of the amygdala.

00:19:58.444 --> 00:19:58.714
Yeah.

00:19:58.984 --> 00:20:01.504
It perceives that a threat has
gone beyond a certain point.

00:20:03.304 --> 00:20:04.774
It's, yeah.

00:20:04.864 --> 00:20:08.344
Well, its job is to tell the body to
produce cortisol to shut off thought

00:20:08.704 --> 00:20:10.804
so that one acts and doesn't think.

00:20:11.404 --> 00:20:11.764
Yeah.

00:20:11.814 --> 00:20:13.704
It's, it's interesting.

00:20:13.804 --> 00:20:15.004
Well, obviously it's fascinating, but.

00:20:17.344 --> 00:20:26.344
I know, I think a lot of people have known
friends or family members, or close people

00:20:26.344 --> 00:20:33.874
close to than us who've gone through
psychosis and this feeling of helplessness

00:20:34.734 --> 00:20:36.294
that this person is unreachable

00:20:38.724 --> 00:20:40.734
and yet you reach them.

00:20:42.564 --> 00:20:45.504
So there they are.

00:20:45.504 --> 00:20:48.084
Whatever has happened has happened,
and they find themselves in the

00:20:48.084 --> 00:20:50.784
situation now living where they live.

00:20:51.954 --> 00:20:55.644
And Leanna Tank walks into their life.

00:20:58.854 --> 00:21:00.324
What's your objective?

00:21:00.564 --> 00:21:04.194
You know, a lot of people,
again, it's very natural.

00:21:04.194 --> 00:21:06.324
It might not be right,
but it's very natural.

00:21:06.324 --> 00:21:08.424
Think, well, they've done these terrible
things, they should just be locked

00:21:08.424 --> 00:21:09.564
up and the key should be thrown away.

00:21:09.624 --> 00:21:10.104
That's just it.

00:21:10.644 --> 00:21:11.694
Die in a dungeon somewhere.

00:21:11.694 --> 00:21:13.374
But of course

00:21:15.564 --> 00:21:22.344
actually life goes on and
somebody has to be there to make

00:21:22.344 --> 00:21:26.244
that a life that has meaning.

00:21:26.484 --> 00:21:28.284
Again, you can hear the devil's advocacy.

00:21:28.314 --> 00:21:31.914
No, they've lost the right, you
know, they've forfeited that, right?

00:21:32.214 --> 00:21:38.244
They should suffer and they should
live in a situation of unpleasantness

00:21:38.244 --> 00:21:43.404
and suffering as punishment for
what they've done, even if they.

00:21:44.094 --> 00:21:47.394
Were not themselves or didn't know
what they were doing or whatever.

00:21:48.744 --> 00:21:53.904
You then arrive, actually,
let's back up a bit.

00:21:54.474 --> 00:21:57.114
You weren't, you didn't come out of
your mother's womb doing this job,

00:21:58.284 --> 00:22:01.764
so how did you end up doing this job?

00:22:01.764 --> 00:22:05.964
And then let's get to what happens
when, when you arrive in that world.

00:22:05.964 --> 00:22:07.404
So how, yeah, where does it begin for you?

00:22:07.404 --> 00:22:08.934
How did you get into this?

00:22:09.594 --> 00:22:09.954
Leana Tank: Oh gosh.

00:22:09.984 --> 00:22:10.314
Okay.

00:22:11.064 --> 00:22:14.274
Rupert Isaacson: 'cause stay us way back
because, you know, there must be stuff in

00:22:14.274 --> 00:22:20.094
your childhood that prepared you for this
kind of, this kind of work that had to be.

00:22:20.099 --> 00:22:20.299
Leana Tank: Yeah.

00:22:22.164 --> 00:22:24.714
I'm like, trying to
think how far back to go.

00:22:25.764 --> 00:22:27.384
Rupert Isaacson: Because it's interesting
when, you know, often when I'm asking

00:22:27.384 --> 00:22:31.644
people about childhood in this, in this
type of work, it's often about, well,

00:22:31.644 --> 00:22:35.034
you know, some sort of trauma or that,
but I, but we often overlook actually

00:22:35.034 --> 00:22:39.024
the things that set one up really
advantageously in one's childhood.

00:22:39.024 --> 00:22:41.994
And so you, you do such
extraordinary work.

00:22:41.994 --> 00:22:47.664
It must have its roots in some deep
sort of sense of security or something.

00:22:48.954 --> 00:22:49.464
Leana Tank: Yeah.

00:22:49.464 --> 00:22:56.334
You know, I mean, I think that at
my core I'm, I'm very, very curious

00:22:56.454 --> 00:23:03.294
and very interested in kind of that
full breadth of the human experience.

00:23:03.394 --> 00:23:06.514
And I was very drawn.

00:23:07.129 --> 00:23:08.479
Occupational therapy.

00:23:08.909 --> 00:23:12.539
I, I studied in, in college, I
studied psychology and literature

00:23:12.539 --> 00:23:16.649
and philosophy, and I, I've been
like a big reader all my life.

00:23:16.769 --> 00:23:23.609
And I was drawn to OT because
it is very, very broad.

00:23:24.179 --> 00:23:33.449
Occupational therapy is at its core, just
about using what people love to do as a

00:23:33.449 --> 00:23:40.039
way to promote, like healing and meaning
to help people do more of the things

00:23:40.039 --> 00:23:41.959
that they love and are important to them.

00:23:42.319 --> 00:23:49.159
And then to also use meaningful, what
we call occupations are really like

00:23:49.249 --> 00:23:54.979
anything that somebody might find
meaningful whether it's, you know,

00:23:55.939 --> 00:24:01.534
playing chess or, or taking a walk
outside or riding a horse or whatever.

00:24:01.534 --> 00:24:02.214
It can be anything.

00:24:03.439 --> 00:24:06.919
Using those things to promote healing.

00:24:07.309 --> 00:24:11.809
So it's, it's really broad and you can
apply it across just about any kind of

00:24:11.809 --> 00:24:17.329
population, you know, from kids to older
adults, to people recovering from a hip

00:24:17.329 --> 00:24:22.729
replacement to people with schizophrenia,
you know, in a locked institution.

00:24:23.479 --> 00:24:29.059
I really like that because I don't
like being kind of pigeonholed and

00:24:29.059 --> 00:24:38.089
siloed to one dogma or one set of
beliefs or one kind of approach.

00:24:38.269 --> 00:24:42.289
I grew up in a pretty
like fundamentalist home

00:24:43.339 --> 00:24:44.299
Rupert Isaacson: fundamentalist criticism.

00:24:44.539 --> 00:24:45.889
Leana Tank: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:24:46.549 --> 00:24:48.529
And that never, how did that prepare

00:24:48.529 --> 00:24:52.189
Rupert Isaacson: you for, for seeing
the breadth of the human experience?

00:24:52.189 --> 00:24:55.549
'cause that's presumably about narrowing
the human experience, is it not?

00:24:56.359 --> 00:24:58.909
Leana Tank: Yeah, and it, yeah.

00:24:58.909 --> 00:25:04.999
And I, I feel like growing up
in that kind of a, it was a

00:25:04.999 --> 00:25:06.859
very, very, like, loving home.

00:25:07.399 --> 00:25:11.179
And, and, you know, just like
a great family good community.

00:25:12.109 --> 00:25:16.729
But it was the, when you grow up
in a very fundamentalist Christian

00:25:16.729 --> 00:25:20.939
home, it's really about molding you
to be the person that, that that

00:25:20.999 --> 00:25:27.489
belief system wants you to be and not
really supporting you in expressing

00:25:27.489 --> 00:25:31.029
who you really are or really like,

00:25:34.629 --> 00:25:36.039
it's more about.

00:25:37.059 --> 00:25:42.069
You figuring out what's the right
thing to feel, what's the right way

00:25:42.069 --> 00:25:46.959
to behave, what's the right emotion
to have, and not like tapping in and

00:25:46.959 --> 00:25:50.439
understanding what you actually do
feel and what you actually do believe.

00:25:50.999 --> 00:25:57.419
So I feel like that whole process and
being able to figure out how to do

00:25:57.419 --> 00:25:59.459
that came like really late for me.

00:25:59.879 --> 00:26:04.469
So I almost how get them was
really, gosh, like, like college

00:26:04.649 --> 00:26:06.389
and even beyond, you know?

00:26:06.539 --> 00:26:16.289
And I think as I have like worked through
figuring out, you know, how to actually

00:26:17.129 --> 00:26:22.439
engage with that it really motivated
me to like help other people do that.

00:26:22.589 --> 00:26:32.249
And also to work in a way that is
like, how can I help these people who

00:26:32.279 --> 00:26:37.409
are not acknowledged, are not seen,
are not valued for who they are?

00:26:37.409 --> 00:26:42.659
How can I help them figure out who they
are and, and be accepted for who they are?

00:26:42.759 --> 00:26:52.139
And when you are coming in to work
with somebody in these settings, you

00:26:52.139 --> 00:26:55.499
have to walk in very nonjudgmentally.

00:26:55.559 --> 00:27:02.369
You have to, to the, to the extremes,
dismantle your judgment about what

00:27:02.369 --> 00:27:04.199
they deserve and what they've done.

00:27:04.679 --> 00:27:11.849
You have to be pretty radical in in
accepting kind of who this person

00:27:11.849 --> 00:27:16.949
is and, and who they've been in
the world and be ready to meet that

00:27:16.949 --> 00:27:18.719
person exactly where they're at.

00:27:20.729 --> 00:27:24.569
So it's always really interesting.

00:27:24.569 --> 00:27:29.189
I will do a little chart review
and read like what is, you

00:27:29.189 --> 00:27:30.479
know, what has this person done?

00:27:30.479 --> 00:27:31.289
What's their history?

00:27:31.289 --> 00:27:33.839
And it always reads pretty rough.

00:27:34.469 --> 00:27:37.919
It's always a little scary
and a little shocking.

00:27:38.069 --> 00:27:42.959
It's like, I mean, how would you like
it if before I met you, I read the

00:27:42.959 --> 00:27:46.709
rap sheet of every terrible thing
you've ever done in your life, right?

00:27:46.769 --> 00:27:51.999
Like all probably the worst moments
are all in these people's charts for

00:27:51.999 --> 00:27:53.439
everyone to read before they meet them.

00:27:55.689 --> 00:28:00.189
And then almost always the person I
meet is like completely different.

00:28:00.219 --> 00:28:05.499
Like you would never imagine
that that was their history.

00:28:06.339 --> 00:28:09.219
It's very, very rare
that I meet anyone that.

00:28:11.529 --> 00:28:17.949
Actually like, wants to hurt people or,
you know, has any intention of doing that.

00:28:17.949 --> 00:28:21.519
It's all these things that have
happened when they were really

00:28:21.519 --> 00:28:24.189
pushed into their survival state.

00:28:24.909 --> 00:28:27.729
But I do meet people that like, don't
really wanna work with me or maybe

00:28:27.729 --> 00:28:33.699
don't, maybe they're pretty disconnected
from reality and they're hard to

00:28:33.699 --> 00:28:40.239
reach or they've been therapized and
in, in institutions for so long that

00:28:40.239 --> 00:28:42.039
they're just kind of like, get lost.

00:28:42.909 --> 00:28:44.829
I don't want, you know, I don't
want anything to do with you.

00:28:45.339 --> 00:28:51.419
But I feel like I have developed
three different ways, like a, a way

00:28:51.419 --> 00:28:59.989
of kind of approaching people without
an expectation, without an agenda

00:29:02.554 --> 00:29:11.224
and being just very, very open to meet
them exactly where they're, they are.

00:29:12.334 --> 00:29:15.904
And where they are is completely fine.

00:29:16.894 --> 00:29:24.994
And often when I am asked to go
meet with someone, it's because

00:29:24.994 --> 00:29:28.264
the team has an idea of where they.

00:29:28.819 --> 00:29:30.019
What they should be working on.

00:29:30.049 --> 00:29:34.099
Maybe they haven't showered in a year
and they want me to help them do that.

00:29:35.089 --> 00:29:40.909
Maybe they struggle with managing
their emotions and they want me to

00:29:40.909 --> 00:29:42.379
work with 'em on that or whatever.

00:29:43.069 --> 00:29:45.949
But I kind of have to put all
that to the side and just meet

00:29:45.949 --> 00:29:48.739
this person and be like, well,
what do they think is important?

00:29:48.769 --> 00:29:49.699
What's like,

00:29:49.999 --> 00:29:51.889
Rupert Isaacson: established
relationship effectively?

00:29:51.889 --> 00:29:52.969
Leana Tank: Yes, yes.

00:29:53.149 --> 00:29:57.349
And there's people, and I have the
luxury of doing this, where I can sit

00:29:57.349 --> 00:30:05.749
down and what they wanna do is like,
talk about the rings and the jewelry

00:30:05.749 --> 00:30:12.379
that I have on and rocks and stones, or
what they wanna do is, you know, just

00:30:12.479 --> 00:30:16.349
listen to music, you know, on my phone.

00:30:17.339 --> 00:30:20.669
And I can do that with 'em for
weeks and weeks and weeks to kind of

00:30:20.669 --> 00:30:27.239
establish that relationship and then
figure out like what's important to

00:30:27.239 --> 00:30:33.809
them and where do, where do they want
to grow, where do they wanna develop?

00:30:33.809 --> 00:30:39.929
And a lot of times those other things
just kind of fall into place when

00:30:39.959 --> 00:30:44.399
they feel like they have like a safe
relationship when they feel like they

00:30:44.399 --> 00:30:50.369
have more meaning in their lives when they
feel like they, you know, are actually

00:30:50.634 --> 00:30:50.984
Rupert Isaacson: heard.

00:30:51.989 --> 00:30:52.469
Leana Tank: Heard.

00:30:52.499 --> 00:30:52.769
Yeah.

00:30:53.189 --> 00:30:53.489
Yeah.

00:30:55.349 --> 00:30:55.889
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:30:56.009 --> 00:31:06.719
How do, okay, you as growing up as
a young fundamentalist Christian,

00:31:07.259 --> 00:31:10.829
were not probably schooled in this
type of non judgmentalism, right?

00:31:10.829 --> 00:31:16.259
Because any dogmatic religion
has pretty clear judgements.

00:31:16.259 --> 00:31:17.189
You're either in or you're out.

00:31:17.369 --> 00:31:18.749
You either follow the rules or you don't.

00:31:19.169 --> 00:31:20.849
You're either saved or you're gonna hell.

00:31:21.749 --> 00:31:28.049
And it's also a punishment
based punishment and reward

00:31:28.049 --> 00:31:30.059
based culture, right?

00:31:30.509 --> 00:31:34.499
If you do these quote unquote bad
things, you're going to hell and you're

00:31:34.499 --> 00:31:39.359
probably be ostracized and perhaps even
physically punished, you know, here.

00:31:40.049 --> 00:31:42.719
And that includes if you just
don't toe the line we'll,

00:31:43.469 --> 00:31:44.519
you know, won't support you.

00:31:45.239 --> 00:31:53.729
How did you get from that to what
I think is, and I guess, I guess

00:31:53.729 --> 00:31:58.499
what I'm, what comes to mind here is
what you are actually talking about

00:32:00.479 --> 00:32:06.839
is what Christianity is supposed
to be, which is love thy neighbor.

00:32:08.129 --> 00:32:09.120
Don't be an asshole.

00:32:10.739 --> 00:32:11.789
If you are an asshole.

00:32:11.789 --> 00:32:15.209
It's entirely forgivable forgiveness.

00:32:17.234 --> 00:32:18.134
Redemption.

00:32:21.044 --> 00:32:29.354
Do you think that some really discerning
part of you as a child thought?

00:32:29.384 --> 00:32:29.564
Yeah.

00:32:29.564 --> 00:32:34.634
All that punishment stuff, that's
all shame, but all that love

00:32:34.634 --> 00:32:37.214
thy neighbor, redemption stuff.

00:32:38.624 --> 00:32:39.164
That's good shit.

00:32:40.034 --> 00:32:43.934
And what made you able to discern that?

00:32:44.084 --> 00:32:48.044
Because I don't think everybody
who grows up in that can

00:32:50.564 --> 00:32:51.404
go back to your young self.

00:32:51.404 --> 00:32:51.854
Yeah,

00:32:53.324 --> 00:32:53.714
Leana Tank: yeah.

00:32:53.774 --> 00:32:57.164
You know, I mean, I think part of it
was, part of it was just baked in me.

00:32:57.209 --> 00:32:57.629
Mm-hmm.

00:32:57.824 --> 00:33:02.624
I can remember being very, very young.

00:33:02.624 --> 00:33:09.284
I was a very like, magically
minded animal loving, you know,

00:33:09.944 --> 00:33:11.264
kindergartner, first grader.

00:33:11.954 --> 00:33:17.714
And even, even in elementary
school hearing that was the

00:33:17.714 --> 00:33:21.674
big, like environmentalism was
like a big burgeoning thing.

00:33:22.274 --> 00:33:26.174
And I remember hearing about it
and being like, that sounds cool.

00:33:26.594 --> 00:33:28.154
And then in.

00:33:28.754 --> 00:33:31.694
Church or wherever, and the dog mutt
was like, oh no, we don't believe

00:33:31.694 --> 00:33:36.194
in environmentalism and we don't,
you know, this is, it's all about

00:33:36.434 --> 00:33:40.814
supporting people and humanity and we
don't, you know, we're, we want Man has

00:33:40.999 --> 00:33:41.159
Rupert Isaacson: dominion.

00:33:41.389 --> 00:33:41.679
Yeah.

00:33:41.714 --> 00:33:42.164
Man has

00:33:42.164 --> 00:33:42.974
Leana Tank: dominion.

00:33:42.974 --> 00:33:43.394
Yeah.

00:33:44.084 --> 00:33:46.844
And, and that never
really made sense to me.

00:33:46.904 --> 00:33:48.974
I remember just being kind of
like, oh, I don't know about that.

00:33:49.124 --> 00:33:54.344
And I think I, I read a lot.

00:33:54.434 --> 00:33:58.164
I, I, when I went to college,
I studied philosophy.

00:33:58.824 --> 00:34:06.624
My, I had a really deep interest in
like other cultures and traveling.

00:34:06.624 --> 00:34:11.484
My grandparents were missionaries
in Africa and South America.

00:34:11.484 --> 00:34:15.974
So I grew up with all these stories
about my dad growing up in these

00:34:15.974 --> 00:34:22.544
other places that I thought were
really fascinating and intriguing.

00:34:22.544 --> 00:34:26.824
And my mom's side of the family,
my grandfather was like a magician.

00:34:27.994 --> 00:34:32.314
And so I grew up with all these,
like, you know, my, my mom and my

00:34:32.314 --> 00:34:35.614
uncle had all these like sleight
of hand magician tricks and, and

00:34:35.614 --> 00:34:39.004
stories about his life as a magician.

00:34:39.004 --> 00:34:41.524
I mean, he was a lawyer, but he
was like a big time magician.

00:34:41.524 --> 00:34:45.184
He was like the president of the
International Brotherhood of Magicians.

00:34:45.294 --> 00:34:46.254
I, yeah.

00:34:46.434 --> 00:34:50.374
So I think I grew up with all these
different ideas and when I went to

00:34:50.374 --> 00:35:01.954
college and studied theology I, not
theology, but philosophy, when I

00:35:02.194 --> 00:35:07.834
actually started reading and thinking
about the concept of hell and trying

00:35:07.834 --> 00:35:16.054
to make it make sense how all of these,
like other cultures of the world, like

00:35:16.054 --> 00:35:20.104
90% of like the world's population
would be just kind of resigned to hell.

00:35:21.614 --> 00:35:27.644
And somehow the Americans with all of
our, like, you know, our money and our

00:35:27.644 --> 00:35:32.624
comfort also happened to be correct in
our beliefs and, and we'll go to heaven.

00:35:32.724 --> 00:35:34.764
To me I was like, yeah, that
makes absolutely no sense.

00:35:34.764 --> 00:35:35.279
The American.

00:35:36.054 --> 00:35:36.384
Yeah.

00:35:36.594 --> 00:35:36.924
Yeah.

00:35:37.194 --> 00:35:44.264
But I did I, I did like and
believe in that idea of caring

00:35:44.264 --> 00:35:46.754
for like the least of these.

00:35:46.854 --> 00:35:53.784
And, and when I was just starting to look
at like where to invest my, like my work

00:35:53.784 --> 00:35:59.604
and my energy and my time I, it was like,
well, that seems like a worthy place.

00:36:00.159 --> 00:36:04.089
You know, to put my, to
invest my, like, work life.

00:36:04.269 --> 00:36:11.134
I, I really loved, I read Oliver
Sacks is a, I read his work in

00:36:11.134 --> 00:36:16.564
college and it was really, really, it
really like connected with me and I'm

00:36:16.564 --> 00:36:18.304
actually reading his letters right now

00:36:18.634 --> 00:36:19.054
Rupert Isaacson: for a hat.

00:36:19.114 --> 00:36:23.554
Leana Tank: Yeah, he was a neurologist
and he, but he was a very like,

00:36:24.304 --> 00:36:29.674
human kind of poet, neurologist that,
like, he wrote these case histories

00:36:29.674 --> 00:36:36.084
of these really extreme cases of
people, people's experiences with like

00:36:36.084 --> 00:36:38.124
different neurological conditions.

00:36:38.364 --> 00:36:46.134
But it was all about how they, how they
kind of lost all foundation of like who

00:36:46.134 --> 00:36:50.034
they are, who they were in the world,
how they experienced life, and then

00:36:50.034 --> 00:36:55.674
how they kind of remade it and, and
adapted and, and kind of found their

00:36:56.364 --> 00:37:04.074
humanity and worked those conditions into
their, into an another form of meaning.

00:37:04.224 --> 00:37:08.334
And I just found it to be really,
really beautiful and interesting and

00:37:08.334 --> 00:37:14.784
I'd never, I didn't, wasn't even aware
of, you know, it's just like beyond this

00:37:14.784 --> 00:37:22.264
imaginable experience, what, how people
can wind up living and still having, I.

00:37:23.734 --> 00:37:27.184
A very full, meaningful, rich life.

00:37:27.604 --> 00:37:29.344
And that just really fascinated me.

00:37:29.344 --> 00:37:36.214
So yeah, I feel like I'm kind of like
wandering away from the question.

00:37:36.274 --> 00:37:37.774
I don't even remember where we started.

00:37:37.774 --> 00:37:38.849
No, I, I think, I think you got that.

00:37:39.669 --> 00:37:39.889
And

00:37:40.029 --> 00:37:44.944
Rupert Isaacson: so, and it leads me to
a, a triple question, which is this one.

00:37:46.294 --> 00:37:55.264
So how does one develop the
ability to approach without agenda?

00:37:57.304 --> 00:38:01.804
And then my devil's advocate
questions, is there actually no agenda?

00:38:01.864 --> 00:38:05.314
Because okay, maybe they haven't
showered or they're not communicating.

00:38:06.904 --> 00:38:09.514
So presumably you're brought in
there for some sort of healing.

00:38:10.774 --> 00:38:12.214
Is healing an agenda?

00:38:13.924 --> 00:38:15.934
And is th that an okay agenda?

00:38:16.474 --> 00:38:16.954
You know what I mean?

00:38:17.134 --> 00:38:17.524
So just

00:38:17.644 --> 00:38:18.064
Leana Tank: mm-hmm.

00:38:18.070 --> 00:38:18.099
Mm-hmm.

00:38:18.334 --> 00:38:19.179
Your thoughts on this, really?

00:38:19.179 --> 00:38:19.499
Mm-hmm.

00:38:19.534 --> 00:38:19.984
Yeah.

00:38:20.104 --> 00:38:20.554
Yeah.

00:38:22.414 --> 00:38:23.224
I, okay.

00:38:24.380 --> 00:38:26.710
Rupert Isaacson: If you're in the
equine assisted field, or if you're

00:38:26.710 --> 00:38:31.140
considering a career in the equine
assisted field, you might want to consider

00:38:31.210 --> 00:38:35.480
taking one of our three neuroscience
backed equine assisted programs.

00:38:35.540 --> 00:38:41.120
Horseboy method, now established
for 20 years, is the original

00:38:41.715 --> 00:38:48.025
Equine assisted program specifically
designed for autism, mentored by and

00:38:48.025 --> 00:38:50.695
developed in conjunction with Dr.

00:38:50.695 --> 00:38:53.575
Temple Grandin and many
other neuroscientists.

00:38:53.915 --> 00:38:57.185
We work in the saddle
with younger children.

00:38:57.680 --> 00:39:02.630
Helping them create oxytocin in their
bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain.

00:39:03.290 --> 00:39:04.730
It works incredibly well.

00:39:04.730 --> 00:39:06.450
It's now in about 40 countries.

00:39:07.160 --> 00:39:07.910
Check it out.

00:39:08.590 --> 00:39:12.740
If you're working without horses,
you might want to look at movement

00:39:12.750 --> 00:39:16.120
method, which gets a very, very
similar effect, but can also be

00:39:16.120 --> 00:39:17.870
applied in schools, in homes.

00:39:18.070 --> 00:39:23.060
If you're working with families, you can
give them really tangible exercises to do

00:39:23.060 --> 00:39:24.600
at home that will create neuroplasticity.

00:39:25.955 --> 00:39:27.235
when they're not with you.

00:39:27.745 --> 00:39:31.185
Finally, we have taquine
equine integration.

00:39:31.545 --> 00:39:34.165
If you know anything about our
programs, you know that we need a

00:39:34.165 --> 00:39:38.165
really high standard of horsemanship
in order to create the oxytocin

00:39:38.195 --> 00:39:42.485
in the body of the person that
we're working with, child or adult.

00:39:42.925 --> 00:39:46.265
So, this means we need to train
a horse in collection, but this

00:39:46.285 --> 00:39:50.525
also has a really beneficial
effect on the horse's well being.

00:39:50.725 --> 00:39:55.015
And it also ends your time conflict,
where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how

00:39:55.015 --> 00:39:58.315
am I going to condition my horses and
maintain them and give them what they

00:39:58.315 --> 00:40:01.410
need, as well as Serving my clients.

00:40:01.650 --> 00:40:06.150
Takine equine integration aimed
at a more adult client base

00:40:06.480 --> 00:40:08.130
absolutely gives you this.

00:40:08.190 --> 00:40:09.510
Leana Tank: A couple of
things to say on that.

00:40:09.510 --> 00:40:20.730
I'll start with in, in my experience,
the most powerful real healing has

00:40:20.730 --> 00:40:23.190
always come from that person themselves.

00:40:23.250 --> 00:40:31.290
So I really don't, and I've gotten more
and more and more to where I feel like.

00:40:32.085 --> 00:40:35.805
My role is really just to
help remove whatever barriers

00:40:35.805 --> 00:40:38.175
are there for that person to,

00:40:40.215 --> 00:40:43.815
you know, find what healing is for them.

00:40:45.135 --> 00:40:50.235
And it can just be these really
small shifts in like greater, greater

00:40:50.235 --> 00:40:55.880
participation, greater connection to
themselves, greater connection to others.

00:40:56.060 --> 00:41:03.260
It's for a lot of the people that I work
with, like they're not going to whatever,

00:41:03.290 --> 00:41:07.640
what it, what even is healing, you know,
like what is healing isn't like they're

00:41:07.640 --> 00:41:09.350
fixed or they're cured or they're healed.

00:41:09.350 --> 00:41:10.645
It's like, well, it's
difference between healing.

00:41:10.645 --> 00:41:10.845
And

00:41:10.850 --> 00:41:11.570
Rupert Isaacson: it's a good question.

00:41:11.570 --> 00:41:14.390
I think in my mind there is a big
difference between healing and cure.

00:41:14.870 --> 00:41:19.010
Like people often think knowing
when I went off to Mongolia with

00:41:19.010 --> 00:41:21.590
Roman, for example, oh, you were
looking for a cure for autism.

00:41:21.590 --> 00:41:25.460
No, I wasn't, but I was looking for
healing because we were all suffering

00:41:26.120 --> 00:41:29.840
and we did find it, but the autism
wasn't what was causing the suffering.

00:41:29.840 --> 00:41:31.940
It was reactions to other things.

00:41:31.940 --> 00:41:37.670
But yeah, so I, I think that is just
worth drawing attention to that.

00:41:37.790 --> 00:41:40.280
Healing and cure are two
slightly different things.

00:41:40.280 --> 00:41:41.870
And so, but, so Go on.

00:41:42.050 --> 00:41:42.350
Yeah.

00:41:42.875 --> 00:41:43.355
Leana Tank: Yeah.

00:41:43.385 --> 00:41:43.685
Yeah.

00:41:43.685 --> 00:41:49.775
And I think that is definitely the,
the way I am operating and the way I

00:41:49.775 --> 00:41:53.855
am looking at things like a lot of the
people I work with are always going to

00:41:53.855 --> 00:41:59.165
need some degree of like, support just,
just to be safe and to live in the world.

00:41:59.165 --> 00:42:07.295
But often they are really, really
disconnected from themselves.

00:42:07.295 --> 00:42:08.765
They're disconnected from other people.

00:42:08.765 --> 00:42:12.485
They're not, they don't have a lot
of meaning or purpose in their lives.

00:42:12.595 --> 00:42:16.405
There's, their days are
kind of full of like

00:42:19.045 --> 00:42:20.485
nothing avoid.

00:42:20.605 --> 00:42:28.645
So if I'm able to even shift that a
little bit and, and bring in some purpose,

00:42:28.645 --> 00:42:34.705
bring in some movement, bring in some
energy, some vitality, some, you know,

00:42:34.795 --> 00:42:41.415
just yeah, any kind of like change in
that I see as as progress as healing.

00:42:41.655 --> 00:42:45.675
And I've seen small shifts and I've
seen really big shifts and I've seen,

00:42:46.875 --> 00:42:49.545
I've worked with people that I've been
like, I didn't do anything for them.

00:42:49.545 --> 00:42:54.345
And then a year later I, I will hear
a story that, you know, actually there

00:42:54.345 --> 00:42:56.745
was an impact or there was a big change.

00:42:56.845 --> 00:43:00.595
So, but generally I.

00:43:01.615 --> 00:43:05.935
If I come in with some kind of
preconceived notion or idea of like,

00:43:05.935 --> 00:43:11.525
what that's going to look like and what's
gonna help them, it doesn't go very well.

00:43:12.095 --> 00:43:19.205
And so coming in with no agenda and just
really, really radically listening to

00:43:19.205 --> 00:43:26.515
that person and where they are and what's
important to them and what they feel could

00:43:26.515 --> 00:43:32.785
be, you know, would, what that would mean
for them is, is always the way to go.

00:43:32.935 --> 00:43:35.935
And then my job is just to
be like, yes, great idea.

00:43:36.355 --> 00:43:37.375
How are we gonna do that?

00:43:37.375 --> 00:43:37.795
You know?

00:43:37.905 --> 00:43:40.545
And honestly, the systems
that we're working in are so

00:43:40.545 --> 00:43:42.615
dysfunctional and so broken.

00:43:43.125 --> 00:43:46.095
It's, it's really basic
stuff for a lot of people.

00:43:46.125 --> 00:43:53.805
You know, in, in, in the program where
our probably most intense, it's like

00:43:53.985 --> 00:44:00.865
locked all men mostly in that like
not guilty by reason of insanity.

00:44:00.865 --> 00:44:03.625
So they have, you know, all part
of the criminal justice system.

00:44:03.625 --> 00:44:04.885
It sounds really gnarly.

00:44:05.035 --> 00:44:09.835
Most of the time what they
wanna do is take a walk outside.

00:44:10.645 --> 00:44:14.575
You know, I take people if
it's safe for me to do so.

00:44:14.575 --> 00:44:17.965
And, and most of the time it
is, I'll just take them walking.

00:44:18.185 --> 00:44:19.385
We live by.

00:44:19.850 --> 00:44:23.780
They're about 15 minutes from
Lake Michigan, which is beautiful.

00:44:24.110 --> 00:44:27.950
And I'll just take them out to the
lake and we'll walk on the beach.

00:44:28.400 --> 00:44:32.180
And I'm like one of the only ones that
does that kind of thing, you know, like

00:44:32.180 --> 00:44:36.310
it's just not really part of the medical,
healthcare system frame of reference

00:44:36.310 --> 00:44:39.460
to see that as like a healing activity.

00:44:39.460 --> 00:44:40.990
But for me it's like a no brainer.

00:44:40.990 --> 00:44:44.650
Like let's go see some beautiful nature.

00:44:44.750 --> 00:44:48.590
And I just did that recently and had
this young man who was really struggling

00:44:49.250 --> 00:44:54.590
and it, it's been like a cold winter and
there was, we went out to the lake shore

00:44:54.740 --> 00:44:59.330
and there's just this little patch of
blue sky and he like pointed at it and he

00:44:59.330 --> 00:45:04.880
was like, that, that's telling me that,
that God's telling me he's got my back.

00:45:05.480 --> 00:45:05.960
You know?

00:45:06.530 --> 00:45:10.780
And and that led to a really, you know,
beautiful conversation about like,

00:45:10.780 --> 00:45:14.380
yeah, like that, that's beautiful.

00:45:14.380 --> 00:45:19.810
That's such a, like what a lovely
way of like, nature showing you

00:45:19.810 --> 00:45:23.830
that like it's there for you, it's
showing up for you and like what else,

00:45:23.830 --> 00:45:25.150
what else tells you that, you know?

00:45:25.150 --> 00:45:28.930
And he's like, well, sometimes I
see birds and that, you know, that

00:45:28.930 --> 00:45:30.310
tells me everything's gonna be okay.

00:45:30.340 --> 00:45:34.810
You know, and like, and just conversations
like that that help give people a sense

00:45:34.810 --> 00:45:40.990
of connection, a sense of like, insight
and get them thinking, thinking along

00:45:40.990 --> 00:45:48.790
those lines I think is like, really
healing and letting, you know, bringing

00:45:48.790 --> 00:45:56.800
people into nature and then letting nature
show up and do what it's gonna do, and

00:45:56.800 --> 00:46:03.580
then be just prepared to frame that and
organize it and kind of like give them

00:46:03.580 --> 00:46:10.140
a way to synthesize it is, is one of the
most powerful and easiest ways I think.

00:46:10.650 --> 00:46:15.780
And then the other thing in that program
that everyone wants to do is cook.

00:46:16.860 --> 00:46:17.430
That's interesting.

00:46:17.610 --> 00:46:17.940
Why?

00:46:18.000 --> 00:46:18.360
Yeah.

00:46:19.290 --> 00:46:23.310
A lot of them have been in prison
or institutions a lot of their lives

00:46:23.310 --> 00:46:24.870
and they never, ever got to cook.

00:46:24.970 --> 00:46:27.760
They don't know how even in that facility,

00:46:28.630 --> 00:46:29.950
Rupert Isaacson: do they tell you, or
is this something that you suggest?

00:46:31.540 --> 00:46:35.500
Leana Tank: A lot of times it's like,
the only thing they wanna do with me.

00:46:35.500 --> 00:46:38.800
So it'll, it'll be like,
what do you wanna do?

00:46:39.310 --> 00:46:39.820
Nothing.

00:46:40.600 --> 00:46:44.050
And then maybe I'll give options
and they'll be like, actually,

00:46:44.050 --> 00:46:46.150
yes, I would love to make brownies.

00:46:46.250 --> 00:46:47.510
People love food.

00:46:48.080 --> 00:46:51.320
Cooking is a really, really just
foundational functional skill.

00:46:51.320 --> 00:46:56.270
Like, if they're gonna like, move on from
there and, and everyone wants to be more

00:46:56.330 --> 00:46:59.840
independent, you know, for, you know.

00:47:00.730 --> 00:47:05.585
The day-to-day life of most of us of like
driving a car, having a home, having a job

00:47:05.585 --> 00:47:10.025
is like beyond the wildest dreams of like
most of the people that I'm working with.

00:47:10.055 --> 00:47:15.515
So if they feel like they can like
work towards skills that will give them

00:47:15.515 --> 00:47:18.935
some level of independence, they're
a little more motivated for that too.

00:47:19.415 --> 00:47:24.965
And so I'll do whatever I can to,
like, I'll, I've like rigged up

00:47:24.965 --> 00:47:30.605
little hot plates so we can like, make
burgers or pancakes or I'll take 'em

00:47:30.605 --> 00:47:33.455
to another, there's other programs
that have kitchens where we have

00:47:33.455 --> 00:47:35.315
kitchen access and we'll cook things.

00:47:35.315 --> 00:47:40.195
And if you think about like
promoting a sense of safety and

00:47:40.195 --> 00:47:46.505
like community and connection like
cooking is, is just great for that.

00:47:46.625 --> 00:47:48.245
You know, if you think about like,

00:47:48.275 --> 00:47:49.505
Rupert Isaacson: it's
wellbeing, I guess, isn't it?

00:47:49.505 --> 00:47:49.985
Yeah.

00:47:50.075 --> 00:47:50.645
Leana Tank: Yeah.

00:47:50.645 --> 00:47:54.455
And like if you are like cooking in
the kitchen with a friend or something,

00:47:54.455 --> 00:47:57.875
or making dinner with a friend or,
you know, it's just a very like,

00:47:58.685 --> 00:48:08.015
safe, connected, enjoyable, ancient,
ancient thing to, to be engaged in.

00:48:08.015 --> 00:48:10.925
And I, that's, so many of
them wanna do that with me.

00:48:10.925 --> 00:48:12.365
So I try to do that as much as I can.

00:48:13.565 --> 00:48:16.145
Rupert Isaacson: This was actually,
you've sort of partly answered, but I, I

00:48:16.145 --> 00:48:18.875
still want to pose the question because
I think it bears more discussion, is,

00:48:18.875 --> 00:48:21.545
you know, I, I would imagine that quite
a few of the people are in a fairly

00:48:21.545 --> 00:48:26.825
profound state of despair, and when
you're in despair, you lose motivation.

00:48:27.035 --> 00:48:30.185
So if you were to say, well, I'm, I, I,
I do what they like the way they love

00:48:30.185 --> 00:48:35.255
music, or they want, but I should imagine
that a lot of people have lost a sense

00:48:35.255 --> 00:48:36.605
of what they like and what they love.

00:48:36.610 --> 00:48:36.780
Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

00:48:37.265 --> 00:48:37.655
Mm-hmm.

00:48:37.895 --> 00:48:42.935
Rupert Isaacson: But what you've just
described is effectively nature, because

00:48:42.935 --> 00:48:48.725
I would put cooking in that category too,
because you're using natural elements,

00:48:48.725 --> 00:48:51.370
natural processes for a natural process.

00:48:53.280 --> 00:49:01.085
When you are encountering that nihilistic
despair that people have given up,

00:49:03.155 --> 00:49:04.925
is, is nature always the key?

00:49:07.250 --> 00:49:11.195
Leana Tank: That is usually
the easiest, most effective,

00:49:11.195 --> 00:49:13.925
most powerful thing to access?

00:49:14.045 --> 00:49:15.905
Yeah, I would say.

00:49:16.625 --> 00:49:17.045
Rupert Isaacson: So.

00:49:17.045 --> 00:49:19.085
Why is that not prescribed?

00:49:20.375 --> 00:49:21.995
Leana Tank: That's a very good question.

00:49:24.260 --> 00:49:27.470
Rupert Isaacson: What do you
seriously, why given that, I think

00:49:27.470 --> 00:49:29.090
deep down we all know this, right?

00:49:29.090 --> 00:49:32.540
And that mental health started
with the Quakers and asylums

00:49:32.540 --> 00:49:35.990
and asylums were supposed to be,
asylum means sanctuary, right?

00:49:36.320 --> 00:49:39.770
That's its actual meaning that the,
that they created gar effectively

00:49:39.770 --> 00:49:45.620
gardens that people could rest in and
come back to themselves in and so on.

00:49:45.620 --> 00:49:48.890
And so, and we've known this forever

00:49:51.170 --> 00:49:56.780
and you are now getting some physicians
prescribing nature, but just begun

00:49:56.780 --> 00:49:58.250
to happen, I think, post covid.

00:50:01.940 --> 00:50:03.170
Why do you think that

00:50:05.690 --> 00:50:08.030
given that, you know,
intelligent people are

00:50:11.180 --> 00:50:17.030
helping to create the policies
that affect people in mental

00:50:17.030 --> 00:50:18.315
health institutions, what, yeah.

00:50:18.375 --> 00:50:22.760
Why isn't it just a
fundamental, what's blocking it?

00:50:22.760 --> 00:50:22.970
What,

00:50:24.290 --> 00:50:24.620
Leana Tank: yeah.

00:50:24.620 --> 00:50:32.640
I mean, I think a lot of it is just the
state of our medical systems is very,

00:50:32.640 --> 00:50:37.140
the, the perspective is very mechanized.

00:50:37.170 --> 00:50:38.610
It's very reductionistic.

00:50:38.640 --> 00:50:47.730
So the focus is much more on medications
behavior management, behavior plans

00:50:48.450 --> 00:50:53.190
and you know, things like that.

00:50:53.340 --> 00:51:02.130
More focused on diagnosing, prescribing
and there's just not as much

00:51:02.220 --> 00:51:05.880
thought put into the environment.

00:51:06.210 --> 00:51:11.430
The indoor environment, the outdoor
environment things are pretty siloed.

00:51:11.580 --> 00:51:16.110
There's, you know, lawn care people that
take care of the outside and then there's

00:51:16.110 --> 00:51:24.510
maintenance for the inside and yeah, it's
just that whole picture isn't considered.

00:51:24.610 --> 00:51:30.100
Even just the consideration of like, the
impact and power of like the culture and

00:51:30.100 --> 00:51:37.750
the community in of a program can have
such a powerful, powerful influence on

00:51:37.750 --> 00:51:41.530
that person's progress and their healing.

00:51:41.530 --> 00:51:48.940
Because, I mean, our neurobiology is
not to be like in this vacuum, like

00:51:48.940 --> 00:51:51.160
our brains and nervous systems are.

00:51:52.495 --> 00:52:01.075
Designed to be always engaging with and
connecting with and resonating with the

00:52:01.075 --> 00:52:07.015
other people around us and the nature
around us and the environment around us.

00:52:07.555 --> 00:52:14.815
And that is like the number one most
powerful de determinant of kind of

00:52:14.815 --> 00:52:19.615
like where someone is gonna be, you
know, what they're gonna be doing

00:52:19.615 --> 00:52:22.645
with their time, you know, what
kind of state they're gonna be in.

00:52:22.755 --> 00:52:28.725
But that's just, it's, it's
a very complex, dynamic

00:52:28.785 --> 00:52:30.915
system that is not linear.

00:52:30.915 --> 00:52:36.585
And I think that the medical system
wants everything to be very linear.

00:52:36.645 --> 00:52:43.635
Linear and very, like A plus B equals
C, and let's just change this one thing,

00:52:43.635 --> 00:52:45.825
or let's just look at it this one way.

00:52:46.665 --> 00:52:49.845
Or they look at that person in a
vacuum and they don't look at the

00:52:49.845 --> 00:52:58.515
whole web of every determinant that is
contributing to that person's health.

00:53:02.415 --> 00:53:07.095
Rupert Isaacson: I guess there's
also presumably a desire both

00:53:07.095 --> 00:53:08.805
negative and positive for control.

00:53:08.805 --> 00:53:08.895
Mm-hmm.

00:53:09.945 --> 00:53:12.495
To say these people are
outta control, not safe.

00:53:13.485 --> 00:53:15.435
They're not safe to be
out in the community.

00:53:15.915 --> 00:53:16.005
Mm-hmm.

00:53:16.245 --> 00:53:19.215
So therefore a walk in nature is.

00:53:19.590 --> 00:53:20.580
Out in the community.

00:53:21.360 --> 00:53:24.060
We can't risk people.

00:53:25.230 --> 00:53:26.760
We can't risk these people.

00:53:26.880 --> 00:53:32.190
You know, the service user, if you like,
losing control, having a psychotic, you

00:53:32.190 --> 00:53:40.680
know, and while one can understand that
you seem to some degree to be putting the

00:53:40.680 --> 00:53:42.450
lie to that, which is interesting to me.

00:53:43.710 --> 00:53:47.160
Are you ever afraid, let's say you take
them out to Michi late Michigan, that

00:53:47.160 --> 00:53:50.670
they're gonna do something crazy that
you yourself are in danger or that other

00:53:50.670 --> 00:53:52.200
people on that beach could be in danger?

00:53:52.200 --> 00:53:55.110
I mean, admittedly I've been out to the
late Michigan beaches, unless you're

00:53:55.110 --> 00:53:59.700
going to a hotspot, it's a lot of,
you know, it's wild what, you know?

00:53:59.705 --> 00:53:59.735
Mm-hmm.

00:53:59.815 --> 00:54:03.800
So it's not like there's a ton of
people around, but nonetheless is it

00:54:03.860 --> 00:54:07.160
irresponsible to take them out like that?

00:54:07.190 --> 00:54:10.190
It's, you know, just, just talk,
talk through all these complexities

00:54:10.400 --> 00:54:12.980
that I could see going through
the heads of policy makers.

00:54:13.790 --> 00:54:14.330
Leana Tank: Yeah.

00:54:14.330 --> 00:54:24.770
You know, I mean, I'm always mindful of
who I'm working with and I know them well

00:54:25.040 --> 00:54:28.340
and there are safety measures in place.

00:54:28.340 --> 00:54:33.710
There's assessments, there's safety
plans, and there, there's all of this

00:54:33.710 --> 00:54:36.590
structure in place to kind of determine.

00:54:38.255 --> 00:54:42.815
Levels of safety for people
going in the community if

00:54:42.845 --> 00:54:43.895
they need, I presume sometimes

00:54:43.895 --> 00:54:44.585
Rupert Isaacson: minders, you know?

00:54:45.545 --> 00:54:45.905
Leana Tank: Yeah.

00:54:45.905 --> 00:54:47.135
Extra people.

00:54:47.135 --> 00:54:50.915
Some will say you need two staff,
some can't go with a female,

00:54:50.915 --> 00:54:52.655
some have to go with a male.

00:54:52.655 --> 00:54:57.485
Like there's, there's a lot of
structure of safety in place

00:54:57.545 --> 00:54:59.345
around working with these people.

00:54:59.885 --> 00:55:01.685
And I'm very, very mindful.

00:55:01.685 --> 00:55:06.215
There are certain people that I will
totally go for a hike in the woods

00:55:06.275 --> 00:55:10.385
alone with and feel completely safe.

00:55:11.015 --> 00:55:13.655
And there's people I
would never do that with.

00:55:14.045 --> 00:55:23.285
And you know, for most of the folks,
when you know them, you know, it's,

00:55:23.885 --> 00:55:30.215
you know, when they're in their own,
they're, they're, they're connected

00:55:30.215 --> 00:55:34.415
to themselves, they have a good sense
of themselves, they're in control,

00:55:34.415 --> 00:55:35.975
whatever, you know, whatever that means.

00:55:35.975 --> 00:55:42.395
They're, they're aware of their actions
and they're in a good head space.

00:55:42.815 --> 00:55:47.675
And you know, when someone is
struggling, when someone's activated,

00:55:47.675 --> 00:55:51.955
when someone is when they're so
higher risk of, you know, them.

00:55:53.155 --> 00:55:56.095
Getting triggered into
some kind of distress.

00:55:56.515 --> 00:56:00.865
And that wouldn't be a time when I'm,
you know, taking somebody out or maybe

00:56:00.865 --> 00:56:03.715
I would have someone else come with
me if I'm trying to take them out to

00:56:03.715 --> 00:56:07.265
like help them manage their stress.

00:56:07.595 --> 00:56:12.965
But for the most part, when I'm working
with people, they're in a good head space.

00:56:12.965 --> 00:56:14.945
They're pretty centered.

00:56:14.945 --> 00:56:17.705
They're, you know, not in crisis.

00:56:18.005 --> 00:56:24.695
There's a really, really big difference
between when someone is in active crisis.

00:56:24.845 --> 00:56:28.385
And that is when you see a lot
of those like really distressing,

00:56:28.385 --> 00:56:29.945
challenging behaviors.

00:56:30.335 --> 00:56:35.705
And it does happen, but it's,
there's a completely different

00:56:36.095 --> 00:56:40.085
difference, you know, when someone
is in crisis and when they're not.

00:56:40.135 --> 00:56:40.645
And you're not

00:56:40.645 --> 00:56:43.195
Rupert Isaacson: worried that a,
a crisis could be triggered by

00:56:43.195 --> 00:56:44.515
something outside of your control.

00:56:45.835 --> 00:56:49.285
Leana Tank: It can happen, but you kind
of know your person and you know what

00:56:49.285 --> 00:56:51.745
kind of things are gonna trigger that.

00:56:51.895 --> 00:56:56.515
And you can take precautions
and I'm pretty proactive.

00:56:56.545 --> 00:57:04.495
Like I know how to assess the
situation and I know my person and

00:57:04.495 --> 00:57:10.905
I know what might be distressing
to them and I avoid that or I.

00:57:12.030 --> 00:57:16.680
Maybe sometimes we're like, I
have people that going out in the

00:57:16.680 --> 00:57:24.010
community does trigger some anxiety
triggers some hallucinations.

00:57:24.010 --> 00:57:29.560
They might hear people saying mean things
to them that are not like really real.

00:57:29.740 --> 00:57:33.430
And that might be something
that we talk about.

00:57:33.530 --> 00:57:38.060
Maybe we practice like
some grounding tools.

00:57:38.060 --> 00:57:45.260
You know, I, I go, I have a lot of
tools in my little trauma toolkit,

00:57:45.590 --> 00:57:50.360
sensory toolkit for helping people
manage that kind of distress.

00:57:50.860 --> 00:57:54.310
So that would be something that
we are like building awareness

00:57:54.310 --> 00:57:55.630
of and we're working on.

00:57:55.630 --> 00:58:04.060
And I can very intentionally kind
of push their window of tolerance

00:58:04.450 --> 00:58:06.430
without them going over the edge.

00:58:06.760 --> 00:58:07.753
So, yeah, talk to us.

00:58:08.015 --> 00:58:09.160
Rupert Isaacson: Take
us through your toolkit.

00:58:09.220 --> 00:58:10.060
That's fascinating.

00:58:10.060 --> 00:58:12.910
I think a lot of us would like to
have access to those sorts of tools.

00:58:13.390 --> 00:58:18.370
Leana Tank: Oh, you know, a
lot of it is, I, I use a lot of

00:58:18.730 --> 00:58:22.310
body-based sensory strategies.

00:58:22.370 --> 00:58:32.300
So as an OT I did a lot of training
on like sensory integration.

00:58:32.300 --> 00:58:32.360
I.

00:58:33.305 --> 00:58:42.365
And understanding how we, how our
senses kind of shape our reality,

00:58:43.025 --> 00:58:44.255
Rupert Isaacson: our
nervous systems, in fact.

00:58:45.125 --> 00:58:45.515
Leana Tank: Yeah.

00:58:45.695 --> 00:58:46.055
Yeah.

00:58:46.235 --> 00:58:50.435
And it's, it's so fascinating
that it's one of my areas I'm so

00:58:50.435 --> 00:58:58.025
fascinated by and, and it really
is a growing area in mental health.

00:58:58.025 --> 00:59:03.455
I think people are understanding more and
more that like mind and body connection

00:59:03.965 --> 00:59:10.505
and that it's not just that mental health
is this like disembodied thing that just

00:59:10.505 --> 00:59:12.665
happens in our brains, but it's really

00:59:13.715 --> 00:59:13.955
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:59:13.955 --> 00:59:13.985
A

00:59:13.985 --> 00:59:15.965
Leana Tank: whole bodies, you know,

00:59:15.965 --> 00:59:18.425
Rupert Isaacson: it started to,
okay, we understand, okay, let's

00:59:18.425 --> 00:59:19.805
take into account the nervous system.

00:59:20.045 --> 00:59:23.135
And nature presumably has fewer
bad sensory triggers because we

00:59:23.135 --> 00:59:24.965
are organisms, you know, therefore.

00:59:24.995 --> 00:59:25.325
Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

00:59:26.405 --> 00:59:30.665
Rupert Isaacson: But for avoiding
crisis or for dealing with crisis.

00:59:30.785 --> 00:59:31.115
Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

00:59:32.105 --> 00:59:34.775
Rupert Isaacson: Can you be specific
about some tools that you think might be,

00:59:34.985 --> 00:59:36.275
'cause we all go through crisis, right?

00:59:36.905 --> 00:59:37.055
Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

00:59:37.061 --> 00:59:37.120
Mm-hmm.

00:59:37.200 --> 00:59:37.280
And we

00:59:37.280 --> 00:59:39.725
Rupert Isaacson: all crises in our
families and we have crises in ourselves.

00:59:39.905 --> 00:59:43.025
This's gonna happen several times a
day just in the most normal situations.

00:59:43.385 --> 00:59:47.645
So, because you work on the
cutting edge of this, you know?

00:59:47.770 --> 00:59:48.190
Mm-hmm.

00:59:48.275 --> 00:59:48.395
Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

00:59:48.755 --> 00:59:49.025
There are some

00:59:49.025 --> 00:59:49.415
Rupert Isaacson: tools.

00:59:49.925 --> 00:59:50.255
Leana Tank: Yeah.

00:59:51.155 --> 00:59:54.500
Well, first is I.

00:59:55.220 --> 00:59:58.830
I'm very, very aware of myself
and where my system is at.

00:59:59.520 --> 01:00:05.040
I, you know, have a lot, have
developed a lot of tools just

01:00:05.040 --> 01:00:08.340
to keep myself like grounded.

01:00:08.450 --> 01:00:12.890
Keep myself in kind of that calm,
regulated nervous system state, being

01:00:12.925 --> 01:00:21.540
able to use my voice, my body language
my breathing to take advantage of

01:00:21.540 --> 01:00:26.310
the, that like mirroring, reflection,
resonance with the other person's system.

01:00:26.940 --> 01:00:33.420
You use these tools to kind of become
that like safe anchor for that person.

01:00:33.960 --> 01:00:38.940
And it, a lot of it is in like,
the language that you use and

01:00:38.970 --> 01:00:41.610
just the way that you show up.

01:00:42.270 --> 01:00:51.330
And then I'm always going to try to
organize so using things like rhythm,

01:00:52.830 --> 01:01:01.000
so music, offering to play music
offering to you know, seeing like what

01:01:01.000 --> 01:01:02.890
kind of music do you wanna listen to?

01:01:02.920 --> 01:01:07.090
Let's put it on, let's rock to
the music, let's walk to the

01:01:07.090 --> 01:01:10.090
music, let's try to sing along.

01:01:10.430 --> 01:01:16.130
I have done a lot of training to, in like
the different nerve nervous system states.

01:01:16.130 --> 01:01:23.930
So being able to observe if somebody
is edging into more of a fight response

01:01:23.930 --> 01:01:31.910
or a flight response or a freeze, I,
you have to really train your eye to

01:01:31.910 --> 01:01:40.040
see those very subtle shifts in that
person's physiology that tell you that

01:01:40.040 --> 01:01:42.860
they are starting to become activated.

01:01:42.860 --> 01:01:47.090
And it can be as small as like
they're holding their breath.

01:01:49.070 --> 01:01:56.120
And being able to, in a very curious,
nonjudgmental way, notice those things.

01:01:56.630 --> 01:02:02.810
A lot of times if somebody feels like you
are that aware and noticing that kind of

01:02:02.810 --> 01:02:08.380
a shift in their state that alone will
bring about a lot of safety for them.

01:02:08.500 --> 01:02:09.400
And

01:02:11.500 --> 01:02:15.010
so, so being able to see that and kind of.

01:02:15.670 --> 01:02:19.690
Headed off before things escalate
really higher, because once somebody

01:02:19.690 --> 01:02:24.490
has really shifted into an activated
fight or flight state, it's a

01:02:24.490 --> 01:02:26.420
lot harder to to bring them down.

01:02:27.920 --> 01:02:28.280
But,

01:02:29.030 --> 01:02:29.360
Rupert Isaacson: okay.

01:02:29.450 --> 01:02:30.680
Quick question about the music.

01:02:30.800 --> 01:02:32.870
So what if they want to listen
to music that, you know, is gonna

01:02:32.960 --> 01:02:34.700
dysregulate them even further?

01:02:37.375 --> 01:02:39.095
Leana Tank: I, you know,
I'd give some options.

01:02:39.095 --> 01:02:40.535
No, let's listen to Moza.

01:02:41.195 --> 01:02:41.690
No, I wanna

01:02:41.690 --> 01:02:43.520
Rupert Isaacson: listen
to, you know, whatever and

01:02:44.240 --> 01:02:45.645
Leana Tank: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:02:46.160 --> 01:02:47.300
Rupert Isaacson: You don't
wanna then get into it.

01:02:47.300 --> 01:02:48.170
No, you can't.

01:02:48.740 --> 01:02:54.020
And right time you're trying to
follow them and, but you also know

01:02:54.020 --> 01:02:55.280
it's gonna trigger them, so, yeah.

01:02:55.280 --> 01:02:55.370
Mm-hmm.

01:02:55.610 --> 01:02:56.720
Like how would you,
how'd you deal with that?

01:02:57.055 --> 01:02:57.475
Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

01:02:58.070 --> 01:02:58.520
Yeah.

01:02:58.580 --> 01:02:59.030
Yeah.

01:02:59.060 --> 01:02:59.630
It's tricky.

01:02:59.630 --> 01:03:05.510
I mean, it, I would maybe give
some choices within that like, area

01:03:05.510 --> 01:03:08.600
that they're looking at and I have
like a Spotify account that I can,

01:03:08.600 --> 01:03:11.120
like, pick just about anything.

01:03:11.600 --> 01:03:17.240
And even if, you know, there's music
that is gonna trigger them, you know, and

01:03:17.240 --> 01:03:20.990
it's hard to say like how much it would,
even if something is really, really like

01:03:21.470 --> 01:03:24.410
Ragey we might be able to put that on.

01:03:24.410 --> 01:03:31.880
And I might still be able, within that,
I'm going to try to organize a rhythm.

01:03:31.880 --> 01:03:35.060
I'm gonna try to organize like maybe we.

01:03:35.840 --> 01:03:39.890
Get out a drum or we get something out
and we try to like, go along to the beat

01:03:39.890 --> 01:03:44.480
with that, you know, to try to like build
a rhythm, build an organization within

01:03:44.480 --> 01:03:46.700
like, the music that they wanna listen to.

01:03:47.030 --> 01:03:50.720
Or maybe we're gonna go and like power
walk to it, or maybe we're gonna try

01:03:50.720 --> 01:03:55.570
to sing along as a way to kind of like
get that energy out in a positive way.

01:03:55.575 --> 01:03:56.290
Rupert Isaacson: I'll to it.

01:03:56.290 --> 01:03:56.740
That's cool.

01:03:57.040 --> 01:03:57.550
Leana Tank: Yeah.

01:03:57.790 --> 01:04:01.630
I mean, a lot of times, like I,
I mean I use music all the time.

01:04:01.740 --> 01:04:04.795
Rupert Isaacson: And, and I'm just
thinking even let's say that's

01:04:04.795 --> 01:04:08.065
what I'm think these tools are so
useful in more mundane situations.

01:04:08.365 --> 01:04:12.475
I remember when I was a, a kid and
wanting to listen to lots and lots and

01:04:12.475 --> 01:04:16.435
lots of metal and, you know, there was
always in the house that kind of, no,

01:04:16.435 --> 01:04:18.055
this is go away from your horrible metal.

01:04:18.055 --> 01:04:18.685
I hate your metal.

01:04:18.685 --> 01:04:22.705
And that, so of course, you know, metal
became a point of rebellion, but at

01:04:22.705 --> 01:04:27.745
no point, for example, did anyone say,
actually, why don't we just clean the

01:04:27.745 --> 01:04:32.845
house really, really hard to this metal
to this day, it's my house cleaning music.

01:04:32.845 --> 01:04:33.760
Like if you put on metal mm-hmm.

01:04:33.840 --> 01:04:35.560
You're gonna get a clean
house, you know, if I'm mm-hmm.

01:04:35.815 --> 01:04:37.315
I'm just gonna start cleaning, you know.

01:04:37.675 --> 01:04:40.165
So it's interesting that you say
that the idea of sort of taking

01:04:40.195 --> 01:04:42.505
even a ragy energy and channeling

01:04:43.550 --> 01:04:43.630
Leana Tank: it.

01:04:43.635 --> 01:04:43.975
Channeling it,

01:04:44.665 --> 01:04:44.965
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

01:04:45.595 --> 01:04:45.775
Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

01:04:46.015 --> 01:04:46.016
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:04:46.022 --> 01:04:49.315
You have to be, you have to have some sort
of inner security to be able to do that.

01:04:50.135 --> 01:04:51.215
What do you do then?

01:04:51.220 --> 01:04:53.135
If they are, if they
have gone over the edge?

01:04:55.160 --> 01:04:57.890
Leana Tank: Then it's really
just about safety, you know?

01:04:58.070 --> 01:05:03.080
And that's when you have to be aware
of like who else is around, who can

01:05:03.080 --> 01:05:08.570
have your back, how working together
just to like keep the situation safe.

01:05:08.930 --> 01:05:12.650
And, and, and the folks that I work
with, like when they do go over the edge

01:05:12.770 --> 01:05:17.860
and when they are their, their systems
can be so sensitive that that's when

01:05:17.860 --> 01:05:19.930
things can get pretty extreme and unsafe.

01:05:19.930 --> 01:05:28.630
So honestly, in my nearly 10 years
of working there, I really haven't

01:05:28.630 --> 01:05:31.840
experienced much of that myself, honestly.

01:05:31.950 --> 01:05:36.780
I have certainly worked with people who
then I hear about like, you know, oh, I

01:05:36.780 --> 01:05:42.060
worked, I, you know, made cookies with
this person this morning, and then last

01:05:42.060 --> 01:05:48.330
night they destroyed the whole entire
program and destroyed, you know, went and,

01:05:49.230 --> 01:05:51.480
you know, threw rocks at the staff's car.

01:05:51.930 --> 01:05:55.210
And I'm like, oh dang,
they had a bad night.

01:05:55.730 --> 01:05:56.135
What'd you put in those cookies?

01:05:56.745 --> 01:05:57.095
Right?

01:05:58.610 --> 01:06:01.460
The cookies did not create the
happiness I was hoping for.

01:06:01.540 --> 01:06:07.090
But I think because, and some of
it is just my, the nature of my

01:06:07.090 --> 01:06:08.980
position, I'm kind of the good guy.

01:06:08.980 --> 01:06:12.400
I'm kind of the safe.

01:06:13.225 --> 01:06:17.755
Friendly, fun person that is doing the
things that the person wants to do.

01:06:17.755 --> 01:06:24.435
And I am, pretty skilled at where
that person's zone of tolerance is

01:06:24.435 --> 01:06:27.405
and not to push them over that edge.

01:06:27.705 --> 01:06:27.975
Yeah.

01:06:28.155 --> 01:06:35.745
And honestly, the things that really push
people into that fight or flight are those

01:06:35.745 --> 01:06:43.335
more author authoritarian, controlling
dominance based ways of engagement.

01:06:43.455 --> 01:06:49.155
And, and, and we struggle with that, you
know, with like, with our staff and, and

01:06:49.635 --> 01:06:53.865
those kinds of interactions because that
can be like the go-to for a lot of people.

01:06:53.865 --> 01:06:56.655
That's how a lot of people were raised.

01:06:56.655 --> 01:07:00.915
That's how a lot of people feel like
they need to keep things safe and keep

01:07:00.915 --> 01:07:02.925
things locked down and in control.

01:07:03.285 --> 01:07:08.325
And those are the kinds of ways of
interacting that really escalate people.

01:07:08.775 --> 01:07:13.035
And so I have found that if you're not
meeting people with that kind of energy,

01:07:13.035 --> 01:07:18.825
like most of the time, that I just don't,
I just don't see that side of them.

01:07:19.335 --> 01:07:20.565
Rupert Isaacson: And it's
interesting because, yeah, I,

01:07:20.565 --> 01:07:25.035
I obviously in my line of work,
your line of work, you know, ones.

01:07:25.890 --> 01:07:28.650
Meeting a lot of people who are dealing
with people struggling with mental

01:07:28.650 --> 01:07:34.020
health and getting attacked, punched,
kicked, bitten, can be part of the game.

01:07:34.440 --> 01:07:38.780
And one of the things I find really
interesting about talking to you is that

01:07:39.320 --> 01:07:40.760
I'm not hearing those stories from you.

01:07:41.390 --> 01:07:45.950
Even though you are in there
with people who certainly could

01:07:45.950 --> 01:07:47.210
and perhaps do with others,

01:07:49.790 --> 01:07:56.180
I don't wanna jinx you, but why do you
think beyond the fact that you don't adopt

01:07:56.180 --> 01:08:00.310
an authoritarian escalating approach?

01:08:01.370 --> 01:08:04.895
As you say, if they do flip over
the edge, it has to be about safety

01:08:04.895 --> 01:08:07.955
and therefore a certain amount
of coercion is going to come in.

01:08:08.795 --> 01:08:12.305
You could end up on the
end of a flying fist.

01:08:13.265 --> 01:08:14.495
Why don't you, do you think,

01:08:17.105 --> 01:08:21.095
Leana Tank: I mean, I think that's,
that's a big part of it, is not coming

01:08:21.095 --> 01:08:25.835
in with that mindset of trying to control
people, trying to dominate, trying to,

01:08:26.615 --> 01:08:28.145
Rupert Isaacson: there's so
much of it about intention.

01:08:28.985 --> 01:08:29.345
Leana Tank: Yeah.

01:08:29.345 --> 01:08:33.485
I think, I think the energy that you
bring to it is a huge part of it.

01:08:33.535 --> 01:08:38.095
And then I'm also just really,
really attuned to where they're

01:08:38.095 --> 01:08:43.825
at and, and listening to them
and kind of me, you know.

01:08:44.890 --> 01:08:48.490
Using myself as a way to help
them connect more to themselves.

01:08:48.610 --> 01:08:53.890
And I think when you show up to work
people with people in that way, like

01:08:53.890 --> 01:08:59.620
you're really a lot less likely to
run into those kinds of challenges.

01:08:59.620 --> 01:09:04.600
I'm not saying it can't happen and,
and honestly, if somebody's in active

01:09:04.600 --> 01:09:08.140
crisis, I'm not gonna go and try to
work with 'em because that's not really

01:09:08.140 --> 01:09:13.030
the time that that's not the time
where I'm gonna really be effective.

01:09:13.030 --> 01:09:13.270
Right.

01:09:13.270 --> 01:09:15.850
That's not the time when people
are learning and growing,

01:09:15.850 --> 01:09:19.110
Rupert Isaacson: that the people
are like, sorry Leanna, they're

01:09:19.110 --> 01:09:21.840
just, you know, busy Yeah.

01:09:22.470 --> 01:09:23.400
Kicking the doors in.

01:09:23.850 --> 01:09:24.150
Yeah.

01:09:24.305 --> 01:09:26.790
Would, would you say, okay, I'll
see you tomorrow in that case?

01:09:27.000 --> 01:09:27.300
Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

01:09:27.525 --> 01:09:27.815
Yeah.

01:09:28.005 --> 01:09:28.295
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:09:28.710 --> 01:09:28.890
Yeah.

01:09:29.610 --> 01:09:32.370
When, okay.

01:09:32.375 --> 01:09:36.960
I'm, I'm torn between going
further into nature or into art

01:09:36.960 --> 01:09:40.740
and aesthetics here, because which
actually is perhaps the same thing.

01:09:41.580 --> 01:09:43.590
Let's just talk a bit
about indoor environments.

01:09:44.190 --> 01:09:45.810
So taking people out into nature.

01:09:45.810 --> 01:09:46.440
Fantastic.

01:09:46.470 --> 01:09:46.770
Okay.

01:09:48.540 --> 01:09:49.770
The indoor environment.

01:09:50.010 --> 01:09:54.990
What do you feel is the importance of
art and aesthetics in mental health,

01:09:56.130 --> 01:09:58.170
including our everyday mental health?

01:09:59.430 --> 01:09:59.700
Leana Tank: Yeah.

01:09:59.700 --> 01:10:02.370
I mean, I think it's enormously important.

01:10:02.730 --> 01:10:05.100
And it's, that's an area.

01:10:05.160 --> 01:10:08.520
Yeah, I mean that's an area that
I've been really trying to like,

01:10:08.520 --> 01:10:11.580
think outside the box and in our
programs, because they do tend to

01:10:11.580 --> 01:10:17.910
look pretty institutional just because
things get ripped up and destroyed.

01:10:18.310 --> 01:10:21.010
And so everything has to
be really, really durable.

01:10:21.130 --> 01:10:27.330
But I know, like I, I I read this book
called Healing Spaces that just goes

01:10:27.360 --> 01:10:33.550
into so much detail and research about
the importance of the environment on

01:10:33.550 --> 01:10:35.290
people's mental health and their healing.

01:10:35.290 --> 01:10:39.670
And there was even, I recall a steady,
like done in hospitals that if somebody

01:10:39.670 --> 01:10:44.800
is in a room with a window where
they can see outside and they can see

01:10:44.800 --> 01:10:52.330
like trees that they heal faster from
medical conditions, then a room with

01:10:52.330 --> 01:10:54.010
a window facing like a brick wall.

01:10:54.640 --> 01:11:00.400
And there's so many different aspects
of like the indoor and the outdoor

01:11:00.400 --> 01:11:06.350
environment, you know, just lighting
and color and the furniture, you

01:11:06.350 --> 01:11:11.750
know, and like the sounds and the
smells and even just like the space,

01:11:11.990 --> 01:11:14.810
how the space is laid out itself.

01:11:15.220 --> 01:11:20.290
And I do a lot of evaluating that when I.

01:11:21.820 --> 01:11:24.670
I, I help a lot on the teams
that are deciding like, okay,

01:11:24.670 --> 01:11:25.810
this person should go here.

01:11:25.810 --> 01:11:27.100
This person should go here.

01:11:27.100 --> 01:11:34.240
And we have homes that are specifically
for like autistic adults who have really,

01:11:34.240 --> 01:11:41.410
really intense, challenging behaviors
and trying to make sure that they have

01:11:41.410 --> 01:11:44.710
environments that are optimal for them.

01:11:44.830 --> 01:11:48.730
And it, it can be a challenge to
advocate even for like, let's make sure

01:11:48.730 --> 01:11:50.620
they have some rocking chairs, right?

01:11:50.620 --> 01:11:58.200
Like, and when you're talking adults,
it's, even with autism, it's even more

01:11:58.200 --> 01:12:02.610
challenging because like, you can have
a little swing for a little kid or

01:12:02.610 --> 01:12:08.010
whatever, and that's easy, but I've got
like 300 pound dudes that also could

01:12:08.010 --> 01:12:12.980
use a swing, but it's a lot harder
to find a swing that's gonna hold up.

01:12:14.000 --> 01:12:18.890
And even our rocking chairs, like we
will buy recliners that rock and they

01:12:18.890 --> 01:12:21.980
get destroyed within a few months.

01:12:22.130 --> 01:12:28.250
So really like trying to figure out
what is gonna do the job, what's gonna

01:12:28.250 --> 01:12:32.390
hold up, what's not gonna get destroyed,
what's gonna be cost effective.

01:12:32.490 --> 01:12:35.280
It can be really challenging
and the same, you know, putting

01:12:35.730 --> 01:12:37.500
art and things on the walls.

01:12:37.600 --> 01:12:41.470
It's finding things that are.

01:12:41.920 --> 01:12:46.870
Aesthetically pleasing that are not
gonna get ripped down and destroyed.

01:12:47.290 --> 01:12:52.270
There was also like research on even
putting up like nature, like fractals,

01:12:52.270 --> 01:12:55.710
like, nature art that has like, those,
like repeating patterns and things in

01:12:55.710 --> 01:12:59.310
it reduces like anxiety and depression.

01:13:00.150 --> 01:13:01.680
I found a research study about that.

01:13:01.680 --> 01:13:02.820
I thought it was so interesting to

01:13:02.820 --> 01:13:04.440
Rupert Isaacson: me that would
make sense because of course it,

01:13:04.440 --> 01:13:08.610
it mimics the environment that
our organism is designed for.

01:13:09.450 --> 01:13:09.630
Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

01:13:09.870 --> 01:13:09.871
Mm-hmm.

01:13:09.887 --> 01:13:10.577
Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting.

01:13:10.937 --> 01:13:15.917
As you were talking, it made me
remember a guy I had a very fascinating

01:13:15.917 --> 01:13:24.047
conversation with once, who his job was
to, it's in England to take pubs that

01:13:24.047 --> 01:13:28.577
had a, he worked for the brewery and
his specialty was to take pubs that had

01:13:28.577 --> 01:13:31.877
a real problem with violent culture.

01:13:32.537 --> 01:13:38.117
Those British listeners know what violent
pub culture can truly be in the uk.

01:13:38.117 --> 01:13:43.187
They can be murderous places, the wrong
pubs and turning, turning them around.

01:13:43.247 --> 01:13:45.487
And he was this really small expert.

01:13:45.487 --> 01:13:48.727
You expect a bloke like that to be, you
know, huge shave and head, you know,

01:13:48.727 --> 01:13:50.707
tattoos everywhere, mouth intimidating.

01:13:51.037 --> 01:13:56.227
He was this little hippie and I said,
how are you so successful at this

01:13:56.767 --> 01:13:57.847
that they pay you the big bucks?

01:13:57.847 --> 01:14:05.347
He said, Ru, it's so easy when people
wanna fight, they want a fighting space.

01:14:05.962 --> 01:14:08.542
So the first thing we do
is we take that space away.

01:14:09.352 --> 01:14:13.582
So almost all violent pubs will have
a big open area with all the seating

01:14:14.152 --> 01:14:14.602
Leana Tank: around the walls

01:14:14.932 --> 01:14:15.622
Rupert Isaacson: effectively.

01:14:15.772 --> 01:14:15.862
Mm-hmm.

01:14:16.072 --> 01:14:18.382
So that there's a place
for people to do this.

01:14:18.832 --> 01:14:21.052
They might call it a dance
floor, but it's, it's not, it's

01:14:21.052 --> 01:14:23.062
a, it's a gladiatorial arena.

01:14:24.082 --> 01:14:27.172
The first thing, the first thing
we do ru, is we put nice big

01:14:27.262 --> 01:14:33.952
comfy sofas and armchairs in there
that are sort of deep and comfy.

01:14:34.132 --> 01:14:34.492
He said mm-hmm.

01:14:34.732 --> 01:14:38.362
People sit in them and they chill
out and they sort of don't much feel

01:14:38.422 --> 01:14:41.992
like getting up and throwing punches.

01:14:41.992 --> 01:14:42.382
That's so

01:14:42.382 --> 01:14:42.802
Leana Tank: interesting.

01:14:43.012 --> 01:14:44.872
Rupert Isaacson: And he said,
and then we put all sorts of nice

01:14:44.872 --> 01:14:50.182
art on the walls, and he said,
and then we play classical music.

01:14:50.632 --> 01:14:52.432
We pipe classical music.

01:14:52.462 --> 01:14:58.972
And there was another place I knew
of this happening in a bad shopping

01:14:58.972 --> 01:15:03.742
mall in another area of England that
can be quite violent, where local

01:15:03.742 --> 01:15:07.942
youth were coming and, you know,
smashing up and looting and things.

01:15:08.272 --> 01:15:11.992
And it, there was one of the shopkeepers
who'd, who'd read something similar

01:15:12.142 --> 01:15:17.752
and he started piping classical music
from speakers that no one could get to.

01:15:17.752 --> 01:15:21.172
And apparently he said it was amazing,
Rupert, that, that people just evaporated.

01:15:21.172 --> 01:15:23.962
They, they just wouldn't hang out
there because they could be hungry.

01:15:24.232 --> 01:15:26.122
Had to take their anchor somewhere else.

01:15:26.482 --> 01:15:32.152
And it's, it's so interesting how in
these really practical situations.

01:15:34.282 --> 01:15:36.292
What we know chills us out.

01:15:37.462 --> 01:15:42.472
A comfy armchair, nice art on the
walls, nice lighting, classical music.

01:15:42.472 --> 01:15:48.802
So why on earth again, wouldn't
that be an institutional staple?

01:15:50.222 --> 01:15:53.792
Yeah, you know, again, maybe it comes
down to this idea that, well, they,

01:15:53.852 --> 01:15:55.142
they've done wrong, they should suffer.

01:15:55.652 --> 01:16:01.312
But of course it's, that's not just
in punitive, you know, criminal

01:16:01.312 --> 01:16:04.612
justice places that's in schools,
and that's in places where people

01:16:04.612 --> 01:16:07.522
are actually supposed to be nurtured.

01:16:07.582 --> 01:16:08.032
Leana Tank: Yeah.

01:16:08.032 --> 01:16:08.512
And I, yeah.

01:16:08.542 --> 01:16:08.872
Yeah.

01:16:08.872 --> 01:16:12.922
And I don't think it's, it's that matter
that like, oh, they don't deserve it or

01:16:12.922 --> 01:16:14.572
they shouldn't have something comfortable.

01:16:14.572 --> 01:16:19.372
I think it's just there's not a lot
of thought and intention given to it.

01:16:19.402 --> 01:16:26.152
You know, when I, or the furniture that
is initially bought that will actually

01:16:26.152 --> 01:16:28.582
hold up is not comfortable at all.

01:16:29.812 --> 01:16:32.962
And, and that just is kind
of what sticks around.

01:16:32.992 --> 01:16:35.002
And it's, it's just a cost thing.

01:16:35.102 --> 01:16:39.662
You know, our, it's, there's not
much money for these folks at all.

01:16:39.722 --> 01:16:44.042
There's not a lot of resources
for them to have a very

01:16:44.072 --> 01:16:46.982
aesthetically pleasing environment.

01:16:47.222 --> 01:16:53.402
And it is hard that, I mean,
they, when they are struggling.

01:16:54.677 --> 01:16:56.627
The behaviors can be very destructive.

01:16:56.627 --> 01:17:01.377
So there's holes in the walls,
there's the furniture gets destroyed.

01:17:01.437 --> 01:17:05.637
You know, I've had a guy struggle
with autism when he would throw all

01:17:05.637 --> 01:17:08.637
the furniture outside of the house
when he was struggling, you know?

01:17:08.637 --> 01:17:14.517
So it's hard to have nice things
when that's the situation.

01:17:14.637 --> 01:17:15.147
But

01:17:15.327 --> 01:17:17.547
Rupert Isaacson: unless I suppose
you make the sofa and furniture so

01:17:17.547 --> 01:17:20.278
heavy that it's just so difficult to
pick up that you, and that's Yeah.

01:17:20.852 --> 01:17:21.392
We have now.

01:17:21.542 --> 01:17:21.832
Yeah.

01:17:21.832 --> 01:17:22.497
Leana Tank: Yeah, yeah.

01:17:22.617 --> 01:17:22.947
Yeah.

01:17:22.947 --> 01:17:24.867
And that's what we have in
a lot of the places now.

01:17:24.867 --> 01:17:27.477
But it's that, that kind of
furniture isn't super comfy.

01:17:27.477 --> 01:17:27.837
You know?

01:17:27.837 --> 01:17:29.997
It's not, and it's not very
aesthetically pleasing.

01:17:30.357 --> 01:17:30.597
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:17:30.597 --> 01:17:31.707
No, fair enough.

01:17:32.217 --> 01:17:35.397
Maybe, maybe we need to start
enlisting designers for this.

01:17:35.847 --> 01:17:35.967
Mm-hmm.

01:17:36.357 --> 01:17:36.747
Okay.

01:17:36.747 --> 01:17:44.967
So now I would like to talk a little
bit about how you maintain your own

01:17:44.967 --> 01:17:49.307
resilience and one of the things that
I think everyone is struck by when they

01:17:49.487 --> 01:17:55.217
know you and know what you do is how you
seem to retain this likeness of heart.

01:17:55.217 --> 01:17:59.627
That there isn't a, you know, I, I
know quite a few people who work in

01:17:59.627 --> 01:18:02.867
difficult situations with difficult
populations that there can be a

01:18:02.867 --> 01:18:04.337
certain bitterness that can creep in.

01:18:05.067 --> 01:18:06.177
I've never seen that in you.

01:18:06.537 --> 01:18:11.847
I also happen to know, of course, that you
are an accomplished and avid horse woman.

01:18:13.242 --> 01:18:16.232
And we have a mutual
friend Warwick Schiller.

01:18:16.262 --> 01:18:17.642
That's how we know each other.

01:18:18.062 --> 01:18:22.982
And those listeners who know
Warwick know that he's a horse

01:18:22.982 --> 01:18:24.272
trainer, but also a podcaster.

01:18:24.612 --> 01:18:26.862
And his thing is a attunement.

01:18:27.522 --> 01:18:33.162
And that if you can attune to your
horse your hor your relationship with

01:18:33.162 --> 01:18:37.062
your horse will change so radically
that things that seemed really, really

01:18:37.062 --> 01:18:39.612
difficult for impossible suddenly
just become kind of every day.

01:18:39.612 --> 01:18:43.242
And he, I think he's been born out in this
and that's why he's as popular as he is.

01:18:43.422 --> 01:18:46.542
And I know that you followed
his attunement mm-hmm.

01:18:47.052 --> 01:18:47.263
Stuff with horses.

01:18:47.268 --> 01:18:47.287
Mm-hmm.

01:18:47.452 --> 01:18:52.042
And I, you told me once in a, a
conversation that this had actually

01:18:52.042 --> 01:18:53.897
helped you, this attunement
thing had actually mm-hmm.

01:18:54.202 --> 01:18:54.292
Mm-hmm.

01:18:54.292 --> 01:18:54.652
Work.

01:18:54.982 --> 01:18:59.062
Can you talk to us about how you
understand what, first, what's

01:18:59.062 --> 01:19:00.592
your relationship with horses?

01:19:00.922 --> 01:19:06.142
How does that impact your resilience?

01:19:06.592 --> 01:19:11.552
And then talk to us about this
attunement thing and how one can

01:19:11.552 --> 01:19:14.522
transfer sort of species to species.

01:19:14.522 --> 01:19:15.872
Just wrap on that.

01:19:15.872 --> 01:19:17.432
I, I, I'd like to know your thoughts.

01:19:17.882 --> 01:19:20.342
Leana Tank: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:19:20.462 --> 01:19:27.122
Working with warwick's, like attunement
practices absolutely radically

01:19:27.122 --> 01:19:30.222
changed the way I was able to work
with the people I worked with.

01:19:30.222 --> 01:19:33.222
And I saw so many parallels.

01:19:33.222 --> 01:19:35.382
So I'll talk about that in a minute here.

01:19:35.442 --> 01:19:35.502
I.

01:19:36.132 --> 01:19:36.972
Like I, yeah, I do.

01:19:36.972 --> 01:19:42.042
I have my older two, I had two horses, my
older mare, Sonny, who is just my heart.

01:19:42.042 --> 01:19:50.052
And I think that having that practice and
working with horses really, really is a

01:19:50.052 --> 01:19:52.542
way for me to like, take care of myself.

01:19:52.542 --> 01:19:55.962
And I think that to do this kind
of work with other people, you

01:19:55.962 --> 01:20:00.182
have to very radically take care of
yourself and be really mindful of

01:20:00.182 --> 01:20:03.542
your own mental and emotional health.

01:20:03.932 --> 01:20:09.842
And people, our culture, like
really loves a martyr and really

01:20:10.232 --> 01:20:13.202
perpetuates that kind of mindset
that you're supposed to just kind of

01:20:13.202 --> 01:20:16.052
like sacrifice yourself to your job.

01:20:16.052 --> 01:20:16.622
Any job.

01:20:16.622 --> 01:20:20.522
Not, not even necessarily a job
in the human services field.

01:20:20.522 --> 01:20:22.492
Like, it's just a culture
of kind of burnout.

01:20:22.592 --> 01:20:28.202
And so I think for me, having
a horse really helps me keep

01:20:28.202 --> 01:20:30.902
my own mental health level.

01:20:31.002 --> 01:20:34.812
But I got involved in, in Warwick's
work when I got a young horse.

01:20:34.812 --> 01:20:40.002
I got, I had this six month old Norwegian
fjord pony kind of fall into my lap.

01:20:40.752 --> 01:20:41.922
And I had never, I.

01:20:42.552 --> 01:20:46.392
Trained a horse before, like
started a horse as a baby.

01:20:46.742 --> 01:20:48.572
And she was really challenging.

01:20:48.572 --> 01:20:53.972
My older mare is very easy, very,
just like a joy to work with.

01:20:54.122 --> 01:21:02.252
And this young horse was puff like she, I
would, she was, she was just like on you

01:21:02.252 --> 01:21:06.002
all the time, kind of like nipping and
biting and you would try to like, create

01:21:06.002 --> 01:21:09.752
space or like, I would read different
things like use a whip to back them

01:21:09.752 --> 01:21:13.232
up and things, and she would just like
bite the whip and try to run me over.

01:21:13.502 --> 01:21:17.642
And like she did not hair like what I did.

01:21:18.362 --> 01:21:24.112
And that I somehow kind of like
stumbled upon warwick's approaches.

01:21:24.112 --> 01:21:29.922
And his really connected, I think with
with me and like what I felt was possible

01:21:29.922 --> 01:21:34.032
for me because I just don't, I don't
have a lot of that like really like

01:21:34.122 --> 01:21:36.732
aggressive, intense energy, I think.

01:21:36.732 --> 01:21:40.852
And I think my, that young horse
saw that in me and was just like,

01:21:40.852 --> 01:21:42.082
I'm just gonna run all over her.

01:21:42.582 --> 01:21:47.112
And I think I didn't have a
really good sense of, even

01:21:47.292 --> 01:21:49.812
Rupert Isaacson: you, you say that though,
Leanna, but I, I know you well enough to

01:21:49.812 --> 01:21:54.042
know, I've seen you in situations where it
is true, you don't get aggressive, but you

01:21:54.042 --> 01:21:56.172
do very clearly express your boundaries.

01:21:57.132 --> 01:22:02.692
If you're a horse nerd, and if you're on
this podcast, I'm guessing you are, then

01:22:02.702 --> 01:22:07.692
you've probably also always wondered a
little bit about the old master system.

01:22:08.157 --> 01:22:09.467
of dressage training.

01:22:09.507 --> 01:22:18.077
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony
program, we outline there step by step

01:22:18.147 --> 01:22:24.427
exactly how to train your horse from
the ground to become the dressage horse

01:22:24.437 --> 01:22:30.957
of your dreams in a way that absolutely
serves the physical, mental and emotional

01:22:31.007 --> 01:22:33.777
well being of the horse and the rider.

01:22:33.837 --> 01:22:34.577
Intrigued?

01:22:34.777 --> 01:22:35.637
Like to know more?

01:22:36.507 --> 01:22:39.337
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.

01:22:41.037 --> 01:22:42.727
Check out the free introduction course.

01:22:43.287 --> 01:22:43.807
Take it from there.

01:22:44.311 --> 01:22:46.531
Leana Tank: And that I
learned from my young horse.

01:22:47.296 --> 01:22:47.586
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:22:48.136 --> 01:22:48.426
Okay.

01:22:49.111 --> 01:22:49.546
So it was not always so,

01:22:49.921 --> 01:22:51.751
Leana Tank: no, I don't, not at all.

01:22:53.341 --> 01:22:53.851
No.

01:22:53.901 --> 01:22:57.771
That was a massive thing I learned from,
from that horse that she taught me.

01:22:57.871 --> 01:22:59.371
But yet you must have been how to do that,

01:22:59.791 --> 01:23:02.101
Rupert Isaacson: setting your boundaries
in, in, in the work that you do?

01:23:03.991 --> 01:23:09.151
Leana Tank: I think, yes, but
it, it's gotten much, much more

01:23:09.151 --> 01:23:10.531
intentional and much better.

01:23:10.531 --> 01:23:10.561
Okay.

01:23:10.801 --> 01:23:17.401
And I, this was maybe, gosh, this was
like four years ago that I started

01:23:17.401 --> 01:23:20.461
working with this young horse and
started kind of down that path.

01:23:20.911 --> 01:23:24.541
So, you know, it's been something I've
been developing for a little while now.

01:23:24.691 --> 01:23:27.421
But yeah, I think, you know, it's
interesting how those horses, that

01:23:27.421 --> 01:23:30.361
kind of horse will just kind of
like find your weaknesses and,

01:23:30.361 --> 01:23:32.341
and like really show them to you.

01:23:32.461 --> 01:23:37.971
And Warwick's work is very, very
like, trauma based, trauma informed,

01:23:38.001 --> 01:23:41.181
you know, his work on, you know,
kind of built on this understanding

01:23:41.181 --> 01:23:45.171
of the nervous system and polyvagal
theory and all of these things.

01:23:45.651 --> 01:23:48.601
And these were all things that I
was a little bit aware of in the

01:23:48.601 --> 01:23:52.611
periphery like through, through the
mental health work that I was doing.

01:23:52.731 --> 01:23:56.301
And then, you know, kind
of in the horse world.

01:23:56.691 --> 01:23:58.041
But I hadn't really.

01:23:59.406 --> 01:24:04.176
He was the first one that kind of
like put it all together into one

01:24:04.176 --> 01:24:06.186
place that really made sense to me.

01:24:07.356 --> 01:24:10.776
And I also just really, really connected.

01:24:10.776 --> 01:24:15.936
He would talk about being a little bit
emotionally shut down and kind of in his

01:24:15.936 --> 01:24:22.206
head and not really in touch with his
own emotional life and, and experiences.

01:24:22.206 --> 01:24:24.516
And I think that I was a
little bit in that place too.

01:24:24.516 --> 01:24:29.856
Like I think through my upbringing
and through, through that kind of like

01:24:29.886 --> 01:24:37.216
lack of emotional awareness or like
validation I just had never really

01:24:37.216 --> 01:24:45.226
learned how to like actually feel those
feelings and, and connect with them and

01:24:45.226 --> 01:24:49.156
let them process in a way that wasn't
just like intellectually in my head.

01:24:49.276 --> 01:24:58.726
And so I think for me, I started
practicing his attunement

01:24:58.876 --> 01:25:03.496
practices and he with my young
horse as a way to work with her.

01:25:03.556 --> 01:25:04.456
Give us some examples of tools.

01:25:04.671 --> 01:25:13.216
Yeah, I'll, because what he does, and I
think what it really is, is like a way to.

01:25:14.506 --> 01:25:19.936
Physically embody the practice of becoming
an attuned person, which is something that

01:25:19.936 --> 01:25:25.096
I don't think you can just read about and
learn about and understand it and do it.

01:25:25.096 --> 01:25:29.296
You have to experience it and
embody it and practice it.

01:25:29.376 --> 01:25:35.016
So he had, he has a flow chart that
he has videos on, and it's an actual

01:25:35.016 --> 01:25:41.946
flow chart that you do with your horse
before you ask it to do anything.

01:25:42.606 --> 01:25:48.576
So you show up without judgment, without
an expectation depending on what the

01:25:48.576 --> 01:25:53.916
horse does, your whole intention is
to respond in a way that shows the

01:25:53.916 --> 01:26:00.356
horse that you see them, that you
get them, that you kind of like, are

01:26:00.356 --> 01:26:02.966
aware of what's going on with them.

01:26:03.146 --> 01:26:04.826
That's the intention of the flow chart.

01:26:04.826 --> 01:26:10.046
And it's, it's where you start before
you ask the horse to do anything.

01:26:10.046 --> 01:26:16.646
And it, the intention is to get the horse
kind of in a calm, open, receptive state.

01:26:17.336 --> 01:26:20.036
So you start, and like if the
horse is just kind of walking, you

01:26:20.036 --> 01:26:21.626
just match steps with the horse.

01:26:22.226 --> 01:26:26.396
And you literally just, wherever they
go in the arena, you just kind of match

01:26:26.396 --> 01:26:28.076
their steps and follow along with 'em.

01:26:28.826 --> 01:26:30.896
And if they stop, you stop.

01:26:31.466 --> 01:26:34.076
And if they kind of look into the
distance, you just kind of like.

01:26:34.481 --> 01:26:35.171
What are you looking at?

01:26:35.201 --> 01:26:41.201
You look at them and if they seem like
they're kind of just tuning you out

01:26:41.711 --> 01:26:47.171
there's a scratching for connection
tool that I also will use a lot on its

01:26:47.171 --> 01:26:53.351
own, where you just kind of give them a
scratch and you wait and really watch and

01:26:53.351 --> 01:26:59.771
see like for a little acknowledgement,
like a little ear flick or a blink or

01:26:59.801 --> 01:27:03.731
for them to kind of turn and look at you
and then you stop scratching to show.

01:27:03.731 --> 01:27:10.211
Like, I saw that and it's so
interesting because you'll see if

01:27:10.211 --> 01:27:14.291
you do this with a horse, they'll
kind of like give you a double take.

01:27:14.381 --> 01:27:16.871
When you do that a couple times they'll
kind of turn around and look at you

01:27:16.871 --> 01:27:19.211
like, oh, are you listening to me?

01:27:20.561 --> 01:27:23.951
Like, like it's, I've had this
experience with so many horses now

01:27:23.951 --> 01:27:25.751
'cause I just kind of do it naturally.

01:27:26.291 --> 01:27:33.146
And I'll have the same
experience with autistic people.

01:27:33.146 --> 01:27:40.246
Like, if I am working with someone who
is not speaking or kind of in their own

01:27:40.246 --> 01:27:46.126
little world and I do something that
kind of mirrors them or this, like, am am

01:27:46.126 --> 01:27:50.566
using my, even like, sometimes I'll give
them little scratches or something and

01:27:50.566 --> 01:27:53.596
I'll, I'll know I've made a connection
when they, I get the same look from them.

01:27:53.596 --> 01:27:56.481
Like, oh, are you actually
paying attention to me?

01:27:56.746 --> 01:27:58.786
Like, are you actually on my wavelength?

01:27:59.506 --> 01:28:00.706
It's really interesting, but.

01:28:02.221 --> 01:28:07.771
Anyway, so, so yeah, there's just
this whole very, very, very kind of

01:28:07.771 --> 01:28:11.431
like organized thing that you do.

01:28:12.181 --> 01:28:16.681
And I did it a lot with my young horse
and I kind of practiced it too with

01:28:16.681 --> 01:28:19.381
like other horses I was taking care of.

01:28:19.381 --> 01:28:30.151
And it just kind of like puts you in
this meditative flow centered space and

01:28:30.151 --> 01:28:35.851
you, I would start to kind of find myself
going into that space, like working

01:28:35.881 --> 01:28:37.531
with the people that I worked with too.

01:28:37.601 --> 01:28:41.621
You know, being able to show up very
nonjudgmentally without expectation

01:28:41.621 --> 01:28:48.821
and also really watching them for their
little signals of like when they were

01:28:49.511 --> 01:28:51.521
getting upset or activated or anything.

01:28:51.631 --> 01:28:53.581
To be able to kind of
reflect that back to them.

01:28:53.581 --> 01:28:54.841
Like, oh, hey, I see you.

01:28:54.841 --> 01:28:56.041
That's the intention.

01:28:57.211 --> 01:29:04.201
And that really helps people
connect to themselves too.

01:29:04.591 --> 01:29:04.891
So

01:29:04.951 --> 01:29:07.981
Rupert Isaacson: is what we're talking
about here, really listening, but

01:29:07.981 --> 01:29:13.441
listening on a cellular level, not just
on a kind of auditory processing level.

01:29:13.801 --> 01:29:18.871
Leana Tank: It's kind of listening with
your whole body, but it is like you

01:29:18.871 --> 01:29:22.141
kind of become that, you kind of become.

01:29:22.651 --> 01:29:23.431
Safety.

01:29:23.611 --> 01:29:28.891
Because for people like that sense that
somebody is really like seeing them and

01:29:28.891 --> 01:29:32.341
hearing them is like safety for them.

01:29:35.101 --> 01:29:38.191
Rupert Isaacson: And I guess with
horses it's a fight flight prey animal.

01:29:38.581 --> 01:29:43.141
So if you can become safety,
then you're going to be able to

01:29:43.141 --> 01:29:45.781
bridge the predator prey divide.

01:29:46.471 --> 01:29:54.241
And I suppose when people are living
very much from the amygdala, then

01:29:54.241 --> 01:29:59.581
they are effectively behaving like
a prey animal, which also might

01:29:59.581 --> 01:30:02.731
have to fight for its life if that's
what it perceives it has to do.

01:30:03.331 --> 01:30:08.731
Leana Tank: Yeah, I mean, I, I take
a lot of the, the big trauma courses

01:30:08.731 --> 01:30:14.101
with the big trauma people like the
Peter Levine of Somatic Experiencing

01:30:14.101 --> 01:30:18.411
and all of these, you know, different
names and like everyone's talking about

01:30:18.411 --> 01:30:26.211
attunement as like the number one basis
for that, like relational healing of

01:30:27.021 --> 01:30:35.421
trauma because that we as a species
feel safety with other people, you know.

01:30:35.601 --> 01:30:38.001
Rupert Isaacson: And is, is attunement
something you think we should actually

01:30:38.001 --> 01:30:45.291
all do in no matter what walk of life
to get along better and have less drama?

01:30:46.791 --> 01:30:49.221
Leana Tank: Yeah, I
mean, I think it, it's.

01:30:49.851 --> 01:30:53.421
It can go beyond just, you know,
attuning with other people.

01:30:53.421 --> 01:30:59.361
I think that it, it's, you can
attune with other species of animals.

01:30:59.361 --> 01:31:05.511
You can walk out in nature and experience
everything as kind of a communication.

01:31:05.541 --> 01:31:11.271
You know, you're really looking, you're
looking to listen, you're looking for

01:31:11.271 --> 01:31:13.041
like, okay, what is this saying to me?

01:31:13.041 --> 01:31:15.561
What is, you know, what
am I taking from this?

01:31:15.641 --> 01:31:20.261
So I think that it, it really is like
kind of a state of being you can get into.

01:31:20.261 --> 01:31:20.591
Yeah.

01:31:22.781 --> 01:31:25.151
Rupert Isaacson: So makes me think
of a recent conversation I had

01:31:25.151 --> 01:31:30.021
with Craig Foster, who made that
amazing film, my octopus teacher.

01:31:30.771 --> 01:31:30.891
Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

01:31:31.131 --> 01:31:31.132
Mm-hmm.

01:31:31.138 --> 01:31:31.371
But you

01:31:31.371 --> 01:31:34.011
Rupert Isaacson: know, where
if, if one wants to see a tuning

01:31:34.011 --> 01:31:39.741
and crossing a species divide,
you know, that's it, I think.

01:31:39.741 --> 01:31:39.742
Mm-hmm.

01:31:39.796 --> 01:31:45.081
But one of the things that he points
out, which I think is in line with

01:31:45.081 --> 01:31:50.421
what you're saying, is that one's
relationship with one's environment,

01:31:50.451 --> 01:31:56.811
IE the planet, IE, other people,
IE the weather, IE vegetation, IE,

01:32:00.021 --> 01:32:04.221
the noticing the slug trails on.

01:32:04.816 --> 01:32:10.576
Paving stones in London and noticing
that there are these little tooth marks

01:32:10.576 --> 01:32:12.856
where they're actually eating the algae.

01:32:12.856 --> 01:32:16.486
And that if you begin to attune
to this level, whether it's with

01:32:16.486 --> 01:32:20.566
individuals or with something like
that, as you say, I think you, you put

01:32:20.566 --> 01:32:24.616
it there that it's actually, that the
environment is communicating with you.

01:32:25.276 --> 01:32:26.116
Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

01:32:26.117 --> 01:32:26.118
Mm-hmm.

01:32:26.271 --> 01:32:28.796
Rupert Isaacson: And that, that is
actually the natural human condition.

01:32:28.796 --> 01:32:35.666
And I think to be divorced from that leads
to, well, let's say poor mental health.

01:32:36.266 --> 01:32:40.336
We know that we've got a loneliness
epidemic and particularly in men, young

01:32:40.336 --> 01:32:43.876
men, and this is something we could maybe
go into in another podcast because I

01:32:43.876 --> 01:32:47.026
think that's, its, I'm actually thinking
about doing a whole series on this

01:32:47.026 --> 01:32:52.146
because I think it's one, become one
of the sort of epidemics of our time.

01:32:52.686 --> 01:32:55.656
You are dealing with
severely lonely people.

01:32:55.661 --> 01:32:55.931
Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

01:32:56.056 --> 01:32:56.406
Mm-hmm.

01:32:56.896 --> 01:32:57.016
Most

01:32:57.106 --> 01:33:02.386
Rupert Isaacson: of the, many of them
are, but this attunement and being able

01:33:02.386 --> 01:33:06.406
to help people attune with the environment
back to you say, or take them into nature,

01:33:07.456 --> 01:33:12.106
how do you help them without it being
like, do you notice the tree and how

01:33:12.106 --> 01:33:16.306
it's moving, you know, without, without
sounding kind of like, this is forced

01:33:16.306 --> 01:33:19.876
fun now, or something where people just
gonna automatically rebel against that.

01:33:19.931 --> 01:33:20.351
Mm-hmm.

01:33:20.446 --> 01:33:27.136
How do you, how do you help people with
this kind of despair and loneliness?

01:33:27.871 --> 01:33:34.201
Find this attunement and
what effects do you notice?

01:33:36.451 --> 01:33:42.691
Leana Tank: Yeah, I mean, so how we
learn attunement, like how we learn to

01:33:42.691 --> 01:33:46.291
be connected to ourselves and to feel
our emotions and express 'em in all of

01:33:46.291 --> 01:33:50.341
these, like, we're supposed to learn that
from our parents and childhood, right?

01:33:50.341 --> 01:33:57.381
And so we start learning it in,
in infancy when our parents kind

01:33:57.381 --> 01:33:58.971
of like respond to our needs.

01:33:59.301 --> 01:33:59.391
Sure.

01:34:00.021 --> 01:34:05.361
And, and, and, you know, show us even
kind of like that back and forth, like

01:34:05.361 --> 01:34:07.521
smiling back and forth with your child.

01:34:07.631 --> 01:34:10.001
Kind of kickstarts that
part of your brain.

01:34:10.001 --> 01:34:11.471
It's like the right frontal lobe.

01:34:11.591 --> 01:34:16.581
That is where we do a
lot of that connection.

01:34:17.871 --> 01:34:23.191
And so when I am practicing in a
very intentional way that attunement

01:34:23.191 --> 01:34:26.881
with the people I work with, they
are like learning it from me.

01:34:26.881 --> 01:34:28.501
Just, they're just absorbing it.

01:34:28.651 --> 01:34:34.461
And I will often kind of narrate
what I see, so I'm not like teaching

01:34:34.461 --> 01:34:36.681
them or telling them something.

01:34:36.771 --> 01:34:40.281
But I am maybe observing like.

01:34:40.626 --> 01:34:45.546
Oh, I just notice that you are
like holding your breath and

01:34:45.546 --> 01:34:47.586
you seem really tense right now.

01:34:48.286 --> 01:34:51.046
Are you feeling a little
anxious about something?

01:34:51.076 --> 01:34:58.336
You know, I might, you have to stay
more in like, curiosity than telling.

01:34:59.026 --> 01:35:05.406
So I might just like very curiously
observe like, you know, are you

01:35:05.406 --> 01:35:06.606
a little worried about this?

01:35:06.606 --> 01:35:12.036
Or I noticed, oh, hey, like, I remember
working with one guy who was totally in

01:35:12.036 --> 01:35:18.286
his own world staring into space and I was
just kind of like, what's he looking at?

01:35:18.286 --> 01:35:18.766
You know?

01:35:18.766 --> 01:35:21.526
And I noticed, oh, he is looking
at like the clouds over there.

01:35:22.156 --> 01:35:25.786
So I was just like, is there's some
interesting clouds kind of dark.

01:35:25.816 --> 01:35:27.256
Maybe it's gonna rain, you know?

01:35:27.256 --> 01:35:30.316
And he is like, yeah,
I think it might rain.

01:35:30.346 --> 01:35:37.046
And that was actually a reality based
response to me that he gave that

01:35:37.046 --> 01:35:41.216
he was actually before that it was
like there was nothing, you know?

01:35:41.326 --> 01:35:43.426
And that was kind of my in, right?

01:35:43.426 --> 01:35:49.966
So you're kind of just looking for
your way in to further that connection.

01:35:50.076 --> 01:35:53.916
And I've had these experiences, you
know, like, like walking in nature.

01:35:54.666 --> 01:36:00.166
And things will just kind of come up,
you know, like, we'll run into a little.

01:36:00.616 --> 01:36:05.456
Wooly bear Caterpillar, and it'll turn
into this whole conversation about their

01:36:05.456 --> 01:36:10.886
childhood and, and their mother who had
different superstitions about, you know,

01:36:10.886 --> 01:36:13.406
the Caterpillar bands and what that means.

01:36:13.406 --> 01:36:17.726
And I've even had like how you know,
just like really beautiful moments of

01:36:17.726 --> 01:36:22.596
like, I was walking with a this man
who also very disconnected from reality

01:36:22.926 --> 01:36:25.806
and we're walking and like all of a
sudden these little butterflies come

01:36:25.806 --> 01:36:30.106
and just kind of like spiral around us
and it's just like this little moment of

01:36:30.106 --> 01:36:34.476
joy that then I can kind of like refer
back to at different times to kind of

01:36:34.476 --> 01:36:36.396
like build that sense of connection.

01:36:36.396 --> 01:36:37.836
But you're really just

01:36:40.146 --> 01:36:43.686
really trying to stay present and
in the moment and ready for like

01:36:43.686 --> 01:36:50.466
whatever opportunities come up to
help them connect to themselves and

01:36:50.466 --> 01:36:53.856
connect to the environment outside
of them and like connect to me

01:36:53.856 --> 01:37:00.936
because a lot of these mental health
con conditions are really just like

01:37:01.626 --> 01:37:04.626
problems of like connect disconnection.

01:37:04.836 --> 01:37:08.886
They're disconnected from their
own emotional experiences, are

01:37:08.886 --> 01:37:10.926
disconnected from other people.

01:37:10.926 --> 01:37:14.106
They're disconnected from
the world around them.

01:37:14.586 --> 01:37:15.516
And.

01:37:16.251 --> 01:37:21.261
Using like movement in nature and you
can, you know, if you think about,

01:37:21.261 --> 01:37:24.891
like, I've learned a little bit
about even like EMDR and processing

01:37:24.921 --> 01:37:30.351
trauma just through eyes moving
from left to right to left to right.

01:37:30.351 --> 01:37:34.911
It's like integrating the right
and left hemispheres of the brain.

01:37:34.911 --> 01:37:40.431
And I can incorporate that if we're
walking outside in nature just by being

01:37:40.431 --> 01:37:42.861
like, oh look, there's a bird over there.

01:37:42.861 --> 01:37:45.141
Or look, there's the cloud over there.

01:37:45.141 --> 01:37:47.031
Let's look at the colors of the trees.

01:37:47.031 --> 01:37:53.301
And I can guide that to look to
the right and look to the left.

01:37:53.301 --> 01:37:56.631
And they don't even know
that's what I'm doing.

01:37:56.691 --> 01:37:57.351
You know,

01:37:57.831 --> 01:38:00.111
Rupert Isaacson: not everyone who's
listening will know what E MDR R is.

01:38:00.111 --> 01:38:01.641
And I, I think it's fascinating.

01:38:02.331 --> 01:38:05.721
I've had a little bit of it myself
and it absolutely healed a trauma

01:38:06.171 --> 01:38:09.231
that I had in about 10 minutes.

01:38:09.831 --> 01:38:10.132
It was mm-hmm.

01:38:10.133 --> 01:38:10.786
It was extraordinary.

01:38:10.786 --> 01:38:10.787
Mm-hmm.

01:38:11.331 --> 01:38:14.091
Talk to, just for the listeners that
aren't familiar with it, can you

01:38:14.091 --> 01:38:15.261
just walk us through what that is?

01:38:16.221 --> 01:38:16.671
Leana Tank: Yeah.

01:38:16.671 --> 01:38:19.161
It's, it's a, it's a trauma tool.

01:38:19.161 --> 01:38:24.071
It's like very, very well established
for healing, especially kind of

01:38:24.071 --> 01:38:27.281
those, like, especially at the
shock traumas or like if you've had

01:38:27.281 --> 01:38:29.291
like a one traumatic event mm-hmm.

01:38:29.531 --> 01:38:34.611
That gets the, gets kinda lodged in
the, in the brain and the body and.

01:38:35.121 --> 01:38:38.381
It started with a psych psychologist.

01:38:38.381 --> 01:38:42.171
I think noticing that when someone
was processing something, their

01:38:42.171 --> 01:38:45.351
eyes were kind of moving from
right to left and right to left.

01:38:45.921 --> 01:38:53.301
And from that developed this whole
modality where someone can be kind

01:38:53.301 --> 01:38:56.421
of, even, they don't necessarily even
have to be talking about the trauma.

01:38:56.421 --> 01:39:00.501
They can just be kind of thinking
about it internally, but shifting

01:39:00.501 --> 01:39:02.301
their eyes from left to right.

01:39:02.301 --> 01:39:07.401
And now there's even tapping the left
side and right side of the body that

01:39:07.401 --> 01:39:12.201
people will do, or there's even like
a musical modality where they listen

01:39:12.201 --> 01:39:14.331
to headphones, a tone left and right.

01:39:14.991 --> 01:39:19.371
But there's something about the activation
of the different hemispheres and the

01:39:19.371 --> 01:39:25.161
different sides of the brain with the
trauma processing that just speeds along

01:39:25.161 --> 01:39:29.151
the ability of the brain to like integrate
that trauma and process it through.

01:39:29.271 --> 01:39:29.601
Yeah.

01:39:29.781 --> 01:39:32.211
Rupert Isaacson: Eye
movement desensitization.

01:39:32.601 --> 01:39:32.901
Mm-hmm.

01:39:33.141 --> 01:39:33.142
Mm-hmm.

01:39:33.148 --> 01:39:34.286
Processing EMD.

01:39:34.286 --> 01:39:34.646
Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

01:39:35.121 --> 01:39:35.451
Yeah.

01:39:35.721 --> 01:39:36.201
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:39:36.501 --> 01:39:44.061
So you can sort of in, you can incorporate
that into a nature walk by guiding.

01:39:44.061 --> 01:39:44.151
Mm-hmm.

01:39:44.961 --> 01:39:46.221
The movement of their eyes.

01:39:46.226 --> 01:39:46.236
Mm-hmm.

01:39:46.761 --> 01:39:47.211
Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

01:39:47.271 --> 01:39:52.641
And even, you know, when somebody is in
a little bit more of like a freeze state,

01:39:53.211 --> 01:39:55.236
their eyes just naturally kind of lock.

01:39:55.256 --> 01:39:55.676
Mm-hmm.

01:39:55.756 --> 01:39:58.641
And they don't really scan
their environment much.

01:39:58.641 --> 01:40:01.941
Like everything is just
kind of rigid and stiff.

01:40:01.941 --> 01:40:05.301
And I can see it in the way they move
and I can see it in their posture.

01:40:05.931 --> 01:40:12.581
And in just kind of a playful, fun
way, I can shift them outta that

01:40:12.581 --> 01:40:19.301
state by looking around or even,
like, I will loosen up the way I walk

01:40:19.691 --> 01:40:24.071
and maybe I'll say like, Ooh, you're
like not looking where you're going.

01:40:24.071 --> 01:40:26.141
Like, let's look out for trees.

01:40:26.141 --> 01:40:27.761
Let's look out for what we're doing.

01:40:27.761 --> 01:40:31.121
You know, and then that might
kind of create a little bit of

01:40:31.121 --> 01:40:33.431
a shift in their nervous system.

01:40:33.911 --> 01:40:38.291
And I've actually seen really,
really massive powerful shifts in

01:40:38.291 --> 01:40:44.141
people's engagement and in their, in
their posture and the way they move.

01:40:44.141 --> 01:40:47.771
And then in the way they kind of
are able to do lots of other things.

01:40:47.851 --> 01:40:49.891
There's this like reciprocal.

01:40:51.121 --> 01:40:55.081
Mirroring between people's kind
of emotional states and then their

01:40:55.081 --> 01:40:57.421
bodies, the way their bodies present.

01:40:57.511 --> 01:41:03.211
And you can kind of like come from,
it's like there's this idea of like

01:41:03.211 --> 01:41:05.911
top down processing and bottom up.

01:41:05.911 --> 01:41:09.421
And the top down would be trying
to like, manage the thoughts and

01:41:09.421 --> 01:41:11.431
manage the ideas like in their head.

01:41:11.431 --> 01:41:16.231
And there's like different therapy
modalities that do that, like that, sit

01:41:16.231 --> 01:41:20.161
in an office and like talk about it,
you know, cognitive behavioral therapy

01:41:20.671 --> 01:41:26.012
or you can come from the bottom up and
you can try to facilitate more space in

01:41:26.101 --> 01:41:32.251
their system through like movement, you
know, and that sometimes shifts things

01:41:32.251 --> 01:41:38.521
more powerfully emotionally than trying
to come in through the, the intellect.

01:41:38.521 --> 01:41:43.051
And for a lot of the people that I work
with, they don't have, the intellect

01:41:43.051 --> 01:41:47.161
isn't there, that foundation isn't
really there to begin with because

01:41:47.161 --> 01:41:48.991
they have an intellectual disability.

01:41:49.411 --> 01:41:54.091
Or, you know, they're just not in
a space because of their trauma

01:41:54.091 --> 01:41:57.961
or their ABD being activated where
they're gonna like be able to like

01:41:57.961 --> 01:42:00.031
cognitively process through things.

01:42:00.331 --> 01:42:02.821
And so you have to come at
it from a different angle.

01:42:03.781 --> 01:42:04.861
Rupert Isaacson: It's it's interesting.

01:42:05.221 --> 01:42:08.971
There seem to be quite a lot of studies
at the moment coming out that cognitive

01:42:09.791 --> 01:42:12.821
behavioral therapy talk therapy works.

01:42:13.661 --> 01:42:17.441
Perhaps quite well for certain
populations, but not for others.

01:42:17.441 --> 01:42:20.651
And it seems that men and
particularly young men do not

01:42:20.651 --> 01:42:22.181
really respond to it that well.

01:42:22.281 --> 01:42:26.351
And this is now, it is just interesting.

01:42:26.351 --> 01:42:27.761
It seems a number of
studies are coming out.

01:42:27.761 --> 01:42:31.661
And I certainly know from my own
point of view that when I had anything

01:42:31.661 --> 01:42:33.281
like that, it just felt awful.

01:42:33.281 --> 01:42:38.591
It just felt like I was, I was a dog that
had done a do-do on the floor, and it was

01:42:38.591 --> 01:42:41.321
having my nose rubbed in it, you know, it
made me wanna jump off a bridge, you know?

01:42:41.801 --> 01:42:46.541
But, and of course, as, as we now know
with the science of, of movement, you

01:42:46.541 --> 01:42:52.001
know, this protein in the brain, brain
derived neurotrophic factor, BDNF as the

01:42:52.061 --> 01:42:56.991
neuroscientists call it which sort of
changes your brain chemistry, your brain

01:42:56.991 --> 01:43:02.031
structure opens up your intellect, makes
you, you know, it's cognitively optimal.

01:43:02.781 --> 01:43:04.491
Movement is key for this.

01:43:04.491 --> 01:43:07.491
And of course, men, young men in
particular, very physical creatures.

01:43:07.491 --> 01:43:11.121
I'm not saying all genders are not,
but it, it seems to be particularly

01:43:11.121 --> 01:43:12.171
acute with that population.

01:43:12.741 --> 01:43:16.521
Do you, was there a moment when
you realized, oh my gosh, yes.

01:43:16.521 --> 01:43:19.041
Movement's the key, and

01:43:21.126 --> 01:43:23.871
I mean, obviously you're an
occupational therapist, so it comes

01:43:23.871 --> 01:43:25.101
a little bit with the territory.

01:43:25.511 --> 01:43:31.571
But obviously you must have
also tried to talk with people,

01:43:32.501 --> 01:43:33.761
in that more top down way.

01:43:33.791 --> 01:43:36.041
At what point do you think
it really became clear to

01:43:36.041 --> 01:43:37.841
you that Yeah, it's movement.

01:43:39.971 --> 01:43:42.551
Leana Tank: I mean, I think I've always
been really fascinated with movement

01:43:42.581 --> 01:43:49.941
and I think that when I came into the
mental health world, I started more

01:43:49.941 --> 01:43:51.561
in the physical disability world.

01:43:51.561 --> 01:43:55.461
I, the first six years of my career
was more in like rehabilitation and I

01:43:55.461 --> 01:44:00.711
did a lot with neuro rehabilitation for
people who'd had strokes and things.

01:44:00.771 --> 01:44:09.601
So I did neurodevelopmental training,
which is a lot of facilitating movement

01:44:09.781 --> 01:44:13.571
and, and getting muscles to move that
haven't moved before and things like that.

01:44:13.571 --> 01:44:19.871
And then sensory integration,
which that is all about movement.

01:44:19.871 --> 01:44:22.421
Like when you think about the
sensory systems, when we learn

01:44:22.421 --> 01:44:29.291
sensory integration, when you're
actually doing it it's foundational

01:44:29.291 --> 01:44:35.801
that you are moving and activating
like deep pressure, the vestibular

01:44:35.801 --> 01:44:37.721
system, like the sense of balance.

01:44:38.201 --> 01:44:38.801
And I.

01:44:39.296 --> 01:44:42.236
Proprioception, which is your
sense of body awareness and space.

01:44:42.296 --> 01:44:48.506
And it's not sensory integration if
you're not integrating some other sense

01:44:48.506 --> 01:44:53.726
with those foundational senses because
they give you a sense of security,

01:44:53.726 --> 01:44:56.456
safety and who you are in the world.

01:44:57.026 --> 01:45:01.466
And that was a little bit my
background coming into mental health.

01:45:01.556 --> 01:45:09.446
So I was already really fascinated
with how those concepts played into

01:45:09.896 --> 01:45:13.566
mental health and the psychiatric
conditions that I was seeing.

01:45:13.566 --> 01:45:20.796
And then when I was working
with people, I just saw movement

01:45:20.796 --> 01:45:22.866
challenges everywhere, you know?

01:45:22.866 --> 01:45:28.836
And I think that as an ot, I was a little
uniquely positioned to know what I was

01:45:28.836 --> 01:45:35.046
looking at because I would see somebody
as being very challenged with their

01:45:35.046 --> 01:45:37.236
coordination and their motor planning.

01:45:37.236 --> 01:45:41.436
And like, you know, they're spilling
their food and they're having

01:45:41.466 --> 01:45:45.546
trouble like holding their spoon
and they're kind of slouched.

01:45:45.546 --> 01:45:49.146
And I asked the staff like, what,
you know, what do you think's

01:45:49.146 --> 01:45:50.106
going on with this person?

01:45:50.106 --> 01:45:51.936
And they were like, well, I
just thought they were lazy.

01:45:53.421 --> 01:45:58.311
And, you know, for me, I'm like,
they are dyspraxic, which is like

01:45:58.311 --> 01:46:02.211
somebody who just can't, doesn't have
an awareness of their body and space.

01:46:02.321 --> 01:46:08.471
Or people are labeled as having like
boundary issues because they are walking

01:46:08.531 --> 01:46:12.611
up and talking to you really close
and getting in your personal space.

01:46:13.091 --> 01:46:16.571
But what I would see was that they
just don't have a good sense of

01:46:16.571 --> 01:46:18.941
like their body's position in space.

01:46:20.471 --> 01:46:26.381
I would see a lot of like asymmetries
and posture or just collapsed postures,

01:46:26.831 --> 01:46:30.431
low muscle tone and, and through.

01:46:30.581 --> 01:46:33.011
And so I was just like really,
really fascinated about like, what's

01:46:33.011 --> 01:46:37.481
going on with all that because they
don't have a physical disability,

01:46:37.481 --> 01:46:42.761
they have a psychiatric diagnosis,
and how is this, like, what, what's

01:46:42.761 --> 01:46:44.981
being mirrored in their neurobiology?

01:46:45.101 --> 01:46:50.861
And I, you know, so I've, in different
like learnings and research and courses

01:46:50.861 --> 01:46:55.811
I've taken, like, you know, I feel
like I have really, really evolved

01:46:55.811 --> 01:47:01.151
in my understanding of like how all
of those things interplay and, and

01:47:01.151 --> 01:47:04.421
what's showing up for people and how
to kind of read it and work with it.

01:47:04.421 --> 01:47:11.851
But I think it's kind of a newer growing
area of understanding because when I

01:47:11.851 --> 01:47:15.991
first started in this field 10 years
ago, I couldn't find anything like I.

01:47:17.356 --> 01:47:22.346
I could, I, every, all the research and
everything was just with kids like kids

01:47:22.346 --> 01:47:30.836
with autism and not adults and not adults
with other neuropsychiatric conditions.

01:47:30.936 --> 01:47:34.116
So that, you know, I mean, that's part
of why I was like so fascinated with

01:47:34.116 --> 01:47:36.006
like, things like movement method.

01:47:36.006 --> 01:47:44.256
I was fascinated with anything that
would talk about movement with autism

01:47:44.256 --> 01:47:49.896
or other mental health conditions
because I, I feel like it's an area

01:47:49.956 --> 01:47:51.606
that's still not very well understood.

01:47:55.836 --> 01:48:01.746
Rupert Isaacson: We touch on your
relationship with your horse and how you

01:48:01.746 --> 01:48:06.036
use that for your own resilience, how it's
also helped you with attunement to attune

01:48:06.036 --> 01:48:08.226
to the populations that you work with.

01:48:08.676 --> 01:48:11.646
We've also talked about nature, we've
talked about movement, obviously

01:48:11.676 --> 01:48:14.466
working with animals, obviously
working with large animals, obviously

01:48:14.466 --> 01:48:17.976
particularly working something like
a horse presumably brings all of

01:48:17.976 --> 01:48:19.866
these things together, synthesizing.

01:48:20.136 --> 01:48:20.346
Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

01:48:20.586 --> 01:48:20.587
Mm-hmm.

01:48:21.246 --> 01:48:23.826
Rupert Isaacson: Have you had a
chance, and obviously these facilities

01:48:23.826 --> 01:48:28.716
are not equine, but have you had
a chance to bring that into the

01:48:28.716 --> 01:48:30.066
work with some of your population?

01:48:30.066 --> 01:48:33.426
If so, could you talk just about how and

01:48:35.946 --> 01:48:37.836
your ideas for developing
this a little bit?

01:48:39.216 --> 01:48:39.846
Leana Tank: Yeah.

01:48:39.846 --> 01:48:40.146
Yeah.

01:48:40.206 --> 01:48:48.366
So we do have a partnership with a therapy
barn where we could create a little group.

01:48:48.366 --> 01:48:52.266
I'll bring a group from one
of the programs I go to, which

01:48:52.376 --> 01:48:53.486
is a pretty cool program.

01:48:53.486 --> 01:48:57.816
It it's, it's one of our more
intensive programs men and women.

01:48:57.846 --> 01:49:02.106
A lot of them have a pretty
significant cognitive impairments,

01:49:02.106 --> 01:49:08.466
but also psychiatric conditions
challenging behaviors and really high

01:49:08.466 --> 01:49:10.566
staffing ratios, really small homes.

01:49:10.566 --> 01:49:11.556
So a lot of support.

01:49:11.616 --> 01:49:18.366
And so I will bring a group of them out
to this farm, and they will do a little

01:49:18.366 --> 01:49:20.406
bit of work for about a half an hour.

01:49:20.406 --> 01:49:23.736
So they'll help clean the
pastures, or maybe they'll give

01:49:23.736 --> 01:49:25.806
a horse a bath or clean tack.

01:49:26.236 --> 01:49:31.726
And then they get to ride the, they
have these great big draft horses

01:49:31.726 --> 01:49:34.406
and, you know, really, really calm.

01:49:34.586 --> 01:49:39.086
And they kind of just give them like a
pony ride, you know, or like, take 'em on.

01:49:39.116 --> 01:49:41.906
They have some trails, so they'll
take 'em on the trails and they

01:49:41.906 --> 01:49:46.556
don't, it's nothing too elaborate,
but it is, has been great for them.

01:49:46.556 --> 01:49:52.556
You know, we I never have any behavioral
challenges when we take them there.

01:49:52.946 --> 01:49:53.816
They, that's interesting.

01:49:54.176 --> 01:49:54.326
Feel.

01:49:54.386 --> 01:49:54.776
Yeah.

01:49:54.776 --> 01:49:54.777
Yeah.

01:49:55.141 --> 01:49:55.361
Why,

01:49:55.646 --> 01:49:56.456
Rupert Isaacson: why do, why,

01:49:56.876 --> 01:49:57.241
Leana Tank: you know.

01:49:58.601 --> 01:50:02.831
I think they're all just so engaged and
interested in what they're doing, and they

01:50:02.831 --> 01:50:08.921
feel like they have this like, sense of
purpose and they're excited to be there.

01:50:09.001 --> 01:50:15.001
And yeah, they're just like, there's,
there's nothing going on that is gonna

01:50:15.001 --> 01:50:19.981
like trigger their particular challenge.

01:50:20.061 --> 01:50:24.746
And, and you know, I'll have people
that need more support and I certainly

01:50:24.746 --> 01:50:26.847
dot have to be proactive, won't have

01:50:26.852 --> 01:50:30.506
Rupert Isaacson: example, like, I don't
think this horse likes me, or the crows

01:50:30.536 --> 01:50:32.696
over there are saying bad things about me.

01:50:32.721 --> 01:50:35.756
I, I use that one because I
actually know someone who has that

01:50:36.356 --> 01:50:37.976
particular psychosis about Crohn.

01:50:38.396 --> 01:50:38.846
Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

01:50:39.326 --> 01:50:41.276
Rupert Isaacson: Do you find
that that actually quietens

01:50:41.996 --> 01:50:42.326
Leana Tank: Yeah.

01:50:42.536 --> 01:50:43.556
Rupert Isaacson: That EQU therapy?

01:50:43.581 --> 01:50:43.871
Leana Tank: Yeah.

01:50:44.036 --> 01:50:44.306
Yeah.

01:50:44.306 --> 01:50:48.266
And I do, I have brought people there
who do struggle with those kinds of

01:50:48.631 --> 01:50:52.736
challenges and that's not really,
they have like the best time there.

01:50:52.886 --> 01:50:53.068
Rupert Isaacson: So what's going on?

01:50:53.073 --> 01:50:54.026
What's special about the horse?

01:50:55.556 --> 01:51:00.056
Leana Tank: Well, I mean, I think we know
like that the horses do like project kind

01:51:00.056 --> 01:51:06.486
of calm and they have their, you know,
large electromagnetic field from their

01:51:06.486 --> 01:51:08.736
heart, you know, that is very regulating.

01:51:09.306 --> 01:51:14.706
I think they elicit a kind of
respect from a lot of our people.

01:51:14.706 --> 01:51:16.326
I think that they.

01:51:17.136 --> 01:51:24.336
Will are more apt to actually be motivated
to like, follow safety rules and,

01:51:24.336 --> 01:51:28.328
and, and policies and things like that
because they actually, it's clearly a

01:51:28.328 --> 01:51:29.766
large, there's this really large animal.

01:51:29.766 --> 01:51:29.826
Yeah.

01:51:30.126 --> 01:51:35.076
And it's so funny, we had one guy we
would bring who's like a pretty big dude,

01:51:35.496 --> 01:51:37.836
pretty like rough and tumble, big guy.

01:51:38.316 --> 01:51:41.676
And he was really scared, like
really scared of the horses.

01:51:41.676 --> 01:51:44.076
He actually didn't come back and
he was even the mini, we'd get

01:51:44.076 --> 01:51:45.816
out a mini horse and that was act.

01:51:45.816 --> 01:51:47.826
He was just intimidated and scared.

01:51:47.926 --> 01:51:51.826
Some of like the biggest, most
heavy hitting people have,

01:51:51.826 --> 01:51:54.166
like the most fear honestly.

01:51:54.266 --> 01:51:56.186
But yeah.

01:51:56.216 --> 01:51:56.726
Yeah.

01:51:57.206 --> 01:52:01.196
I think I have people, it's like the
middle of winter right now and we're

01:52:01.196 --> 01:52:05.516
not really going for like a month while
it's, you know, five degrees outside.

01:52:05.966 --> 01:52:10.076
And everyone's still bugging me
about wanting to go because I think

01:52:10.076 --> 01:52:15.666
they don't often get to feel like
they are productive or giving back,

01:52:15.666 --> 01:52:20.706
or that they are, you know, like
really contributing to something.

01:52:20.706 --> 01:52:25.486
And I think that's something that is
really lacking for this group of people.

01:52:25.486 --> 01:52:31.876
It's, you know, they, the, the, in the
mental health lingo, they're labeled as

01:52:31.936 --> 01:52:34.666
consumers is like what they get called.

01:52:35.521 --> 01:52:38.251
Because they consume
mental health resources.

01:52:38.251 --> 01:52:42.271
And I just, I really hate that term
because it just kind of puts them in

01:52:42.271 --> 01:52:45.631
this position that they just take, take,
take and they have nothing to give.

01:52:45.741 --> 01:52:47.571
And I think it's really
important for people to feel

01:52:47.571 --> 01:52:49.191
like they have something to give.

01:52:49.251 --> 01:52:53.151
And so having them come and like,
feel like they're taking care of the

01:52:53.151 --> 01:52:55.221
horses and then they get to ride.

01:52:55.221 --> 01:53:00.141
And I've seen like wild, I
had another person with this

01:53:00.141 --> 01:53:02.691
very like, strange posture.

01:53:02.691 --> 01:53:07.791
They were like very, very crooked and
for like, there's no medical reason,

01:53:09.291 --> 01:53:14.001
but when they got on the horse, they're
just completely straight and aligned.

01:53:14.001 --> 01:53:18.471
And I could use that
body sensation later on.

01:53:18.471 --> 01:53:22.041
We could talk about it and be like,
Hey, remember what it felt like, you

01:53:22.041 --> 01:53:23.241
know, when you were on the horse?

01:53:23.241 --> 01:53:25.431
Can you kind of like
find that feeling again?

01:53:25.431 --> 01:53:29.091
And they could kind of straighten
up and like we could kind of use

01:53:29.091 --> 01:53:34.491
that new sense in their body of
like what straight felt like to like

01:53:34.641 --> 01:53:37.191
bring that forward into their life.

01:53:37.191 --> 01:53:38.511
And now they're straight actually.

01:53:39.651 --> 01:53:40.551
Rupert Isaacson: That's so interesting.

01:53:40.821 --> 01:53:41.421
Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

01:53:41.436 --> 01:53:41.776
Rupert Isaacson: You know,

01:53:44.151 --> 01:53:51.231
obviously my story might work, you know,
with horses it's time and time again.

01:53:51.231 --> 01:53:58.011
We've seen things that one regards as
miraculous, but happen so often that.

01:53:59.451 --> 01:54:04.401
We have to then start saying, well, is
it a miracle or is it actually just the

01:54:04.401 --> 01:54:09.081
product of, as you say, electromagnetic
resonance of the heart, you know,

01:54:09.381 --> 01:54:14.901
production of certain hormones, oxytocin,
et cetera, BDNF in the brain, but all

01:54:14.901 --> 01:54:19.251
coming together in a perfect cocktail,
in the right sensory environment.

01:54:19.371 --> 01:54:24.891
A lot of studies have also shown that
when people engage in animal assisted

01:54:25.911 --> 01:54:34.221
therapies, they tend to finish the program
because they have a relationship with the

01:54:34.221 --> 01:54:37.221
animal and they want to keep coming back.

01:54:37.431 --> 01:54:39.231
Can also be with dogs, for example.

01:54:39.661 --> 01:54:43.161
But particularly with equine, it seems
that horses, I guess they're so beautiful

01:54:43.341 --> 01:54:48.891
aesthetically, they make us feel good
in a way that I think very few other

01:54:48.891 --> 01:54:50.781
animals in this idea that they carry us.

01:54:50.781 --> 01:54:56.036
Maybe y you know, ke Sullivan
university of Bournemouth, she's

01:54:56.036 --> 01:54:57.776
affiliated there, you know, researcher.

01:54:58.586 --> 01:55:04.646
They did a study that in domestic
violence, people who mm-hmm.

01:55:05.336 --> 01:55:12.656
Had been perpetrators of domestic violence
going to equine assisted programs.

01:55:13.496 --> 01:55:18.266
Not only finishing the program,
but apparently a 51% reduction

01:55:18.266 --> 01:55:23.276
in domestic violence, even one
year after the program had ended.

01:55:23.936 --> 01:55:27.776
So it does seem that
there's a, a massively

01:55:29.906 --> 01:55:31.796
still to be properly explored

01:55:31.796 --> 01:55:32.786
Leana Tank: mm-hmm.

01:55:33.026 --> 01:55:33.446
In here within

01:55:33.446 --> 01:55:33.791
Rupert Isaacson: mental health.

01:55:34.136 --> 01:55:36.416
Can you yourself, I mean,
you, you have a certain amount

01:55:36.416 --> 01:55:37.886
of autonomy in, in your job.

01:55:37.886 --> 01:55:40.496
You, you are looking after
quite a few facilities, you're

01:55:40.496 --> 01:55:44.426
traveling between them people are
listening to you to some degree.

01:55:44.906 --> 01:55:44.996
Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

01:55:45.686 --> 01:55:47.816
Rupert Isaacson: Have you
got plans to develop more the

01:55:47.816 --> 01:55:49.316
nature, the art, the equine?

01:55:50.066 --> 01:55:50.816
Where's it going?

01:55:52.496 --> 01:55:57.446
Leana Tank: Yeah, you know, I, I feel like
I've been doing this long enough now that

01:55:57.446 --> 01:56:03.836
I feel like I have a pretty good idea of
what you get the most bang for your buck.

01:56:04.316 --> 01:56:11.306
You know, in terms of like programming and
like implementing and, and scaling things.

01:56:11.336 --> 01:56:16.016
'cause I'm always thinking about
how to be as effective as I can.

01:56:16.046 --> 01:56:19.826
'cause I do cover like a lot of
programs and I can only do so much

01:56:19.826 --> 01:56:21.476
like working one-on-one with people.

01:56:21.476 --> 01:56:27.956
And I really find like trying to
support the staff in these programs

01:56:27.956 --> 01:56:29.456
is really, really important.

01:56:29.556 --> 01:56:30.306
The.

01:56:30.741 --> 01:56:36.981
They are the ones that are, that like
source of relationship for the people

01:56:36.981 --> 01:56:42.021
in the programs and they really create a
lot of the culture and I've seen really

01:56:42.021 --> 01:56:48.051
good staff be the source of like so
much progress and healing for people.

01:56:48.381 --> 01:56:53.001
And then I've seen staff just
completely torpedo people's progress.

01:56:53.691 --> 01:57:00.981
And I, I do like, I have a really, really
a lot of compassion and care for the

01:57:00.981 --> 01:57:04.581
people that I work with, but also for
like, the people that are supporting them.

01:57:04.631 --> 01:57:10.271
'cause it's a really, really hard job
and they're not given a lot of resources.

01:57:10.271 --> 01:57:17.081
They're, they're kind of expected to be
the bandaid on a really broken system

01:57:17.591 --> 01:57:22.031
and they're kind of like sandwiched
in the middle of these really, really

01:57:22.031 --> 01:57:24.151
challenging you know, residents.

01:57:24.151 --> 01:57:27.241
And that a system that is like
always more and more demanding.

01:57:27.341 --> 01:57:34.826
So like finding ways to support
the staff so that they can support

01:57:34.826 --> 01:57:38.051
the people that they work with, I
think is like something I really,

01:57:38.051 --> 01:57:41.621
really would like to develop and do.

01:57:41.721 --> 01:57:45.741
I ideally, I would love all
the staff to be able to like.

01:57:46.881 --> 01:57:50.841
Go do an attunement workshop, you know,
and like learn like how to like really

01:57:50.841 --> 01:57:55.291
embody it because I think that it if you
can kinda work from that kind of a space,

01:57:55.291 --> 01:57:57.271
it actually like prevents burnout too.

01:57:57.301 --> 01:58:01.171
'cause you're not always like
controlling and resisting and it's,

01:58:01.171 --> 01:58:05.701
you know, I think it just I think,
I think that would be a really nice

01:58:05.701 --> 01:58:07.111
thing to be able to give people.

01:58:07.221 --> 01:58:10.311
And yeah, like being able to
really look at the environments,

01:58:10.311 --> 01:58:11.931
look at bringing in more nature.

01:58:11.931 --> 01:58:20.621
Look at, I think a lot of the groups and
things still tend to be very cognitive.

01:58:20.791 --> 01:58:25.641
And I would love to see more
intentionality in the programs around

01:58:25.641 --> 01:58:30.151
designing groups and activities for the
residents that are more like humanity

01:58:30.151 --> 01:58:37.051
building, like more music groups, more
just group dancing, more drumming, more

01:58:37.111 --> 01:58:42.491
just things that we know, like promote
a good, healthy nervous system and

01:58:42.491 --> 01:58:46.871
connection and, and all of that stuff
without it feeling like a therapy group.

01:58:47.711 --> 01:58:51.431
So I'm, I'm kind of working to
try to build those into different

01:58:51.431 --> 01:58:52.841
programs that are open to it.

01:58:52.901 --> 01:58:54.041
So stuff like that.

01:58:54.101 --> 01:58:57.221
More, more awareness for
staff, more training.

01:58:57.221 --> 01:58:59.531
A lot of them come in from
like a high school diploma.

01:59:00.986 --> 01:59:04.166
You know, or it's their first job, or
maybe they worked in like a factory

01:59:04.166 --> 01:59:08.066
and it's kind of a, a low bar of entry.

01:59:08.606 --> 01:59:14.386
And not the highest paying and not it's
just not a very valued job in our economy.

01:59:14.486 --> 01:59:19.646
But it's actually highly,
requires a high degree of skill.

01:59:20.546 --> 01:59:21.746
I mean, if you think about it,

01:59:22.346 --> 01:59:23.936
Rupert Isaacson: well undervalued
Well, people looking after

01:59:23.936 --> 01:59:25.196
other undervalued people.

01:59:25.286 --> 01:59:26.066
Leana Tank: Exactly.

01:59:26.126 --> 01:59:26.486
Yeah.

01:59:26.666 --> 01:59:26.936
Yep.

01:59:27.026 --> 01:59:27.656
Exactly.

01:59:27.866 --> 01:59:30.746
Rupert Isaacson: W what, you know,
as you talk, and it's interesting

01:59:30.746 --> 01:59:32.966
'cause we, we we're approaching
now, I think we've probably just

01:59:32.966 --> 01:59:34.461
over the two hour mark and mm-hmm.

01:59:34.706 --> 01:59:37.226
I could keep going and I think I, I'm
gonna have ask you to come back on

01:59:37.226 --> 01:59:41.426
actually, and there's a, a number of
things I think listeners and myself

01:59:41.426 --> 01:59:47.936
would like to go into more detail on,
but what springs to mind as you begin

01:59:47.936 --> 01:59:54.446
to, as you're talking now about those
systems, is those communities and

01:59:54.446 --> 02:00:00.926
the staff there and the people living
in them, it sounds like families.

02:00:01.526 --> 02:00:07.046
And oftentimes our family dynamics are
not as functional as they could be.

02:00:07.736 --> 02:00:15.056
What can, let's say you switch hats and
you became a family therapist having

02:00:15.056 --> 02:00:17.996
brought in the insights of working.

02:00:20.156 --> 02:00:26.306
At this high stakes type, human
community environment, what are like

02:00:26.306 --> 02:00:32.006
the five count 'em on your fingers
type things that all of us who are

02:00:32.006 --> 02:00:44.246
parents, who are spouses, who are kids
ourselves to older parents, what are the

02:00:44.246 --> 02:00:49.136
things that you feel if everybody did

02:00:51.896 --> 02:00:53.996
it, would just ease

02:00:56.246 --> 02:00:57.326
everybody's life?

02:00:57.686 --> 02:00:58.766
Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

02:00:58.767 --> 02:00:58.768
Mm-hmm.

02:01:01.611 --> 02:01:06.566
Well, you know, the first thing
that comes to mind is that idea of

02:01:07.586 --> 02:01:11.876
really radical acceptance and just
letting people be who they are.

02:01:11.876 --> 02:01:18.386
And I think that is something I think
about that a lot as a parent and thinking

02:01:18.386 --> 02:01:23.786
about how I was parented to kind of
be molded in a certain direction.

02:01:24.476 --> 02:01:28.976
But instead to look at it as I'm
an apparent, as a way to kind of

02:01:28.976 --> 02:01:32.996
just discover who this person is
and help them be more of who they

02:01:32.996 --> 02:01:38.516
are and just celebrate, celebrate
what we all discover together.

02:01:38.756 --> 02:01:40.556
Taking that.

02:01:41.961 --> 02:01:47.391
Attitude of like, or I guess looking
at what your expectations are and what

02:01:47.391 --> 02:01:52.071
your judgments are about what this
person should be, who they are, what

02:01:52.071 --> 02:01:58.671
their life should look like, and being
able to just really radically let go

02:01:58.671 --> 02:02:03.741
of that and just see who this person is
that's kind of creating themselves in

02:02:03.741 --> 02:02:11.021
front of you is something that I think,
you know, will feel very, very, very

02:02:11.321 --> 02:02:14.711
freeing and validating to the person that
is like on the receiving end of that.

02:02:14.761 --> 02:02:15.991
Something I wish I would've had.

02:02:16.381 --> 02:02:18.721
And I think, you know, and,
and I do try to do that for

02:02:18.721 --> 02:02:19.711
the people I'm working with.

02:02:19.711 --> 02:02:24.391
I try not to bring my judgments and my
notions about who they are and who they

02:02:24.391 --> 02:02:27.331
should be and where they should be at.

02:02:27.331 --> 02:02:32.401
You know, I think when you get into
that mindset of where you should be,

02:02:32.941 --> 02:02:37.351
that kind of puts you in this like
frozen state of immobility, like you

02:02:37.351 --> 02:02:39.151
can't really move forward from there.

02:02:39.151 --> 02:02:47.821
You have to be totally accepting of
where things are before you can take

02:02:47.821 --> 02:02:49.861
those next steps of moving on from there.

02:02:50.041 --> 02:02:55.291
So I think a lot of it is looking at your
judgments, looking at your expectations,

02:02:55.291 --> 02:03:02.041
and being very, very accepting of
where things are and knowing that.

02:03:03.556 --> 02:03:06.826
If you can get to that space, things
can actually change really, really

02:03:06.826 --> 02:03:09.526
fast and really radically in ways
that you don't even realize it.

02:03:09.766 --> 02:03:18.136
I think looking at, always trying to
look at what's going on underneath the

02:03:18.856 --> 02:03:26.756
problem or the behavior that you're
seeing that when you're seeing a

02:03:26.756 --> 02:03:34.126
behavior that's not so, nice, you know,
or challenging or not so constructive,

02:03:34.126 --> 02:03:40.036
like getting curious about it, you
know, before you just go right to like

02:03:40.036 --> 02:03:41.776
shaming it or trying to shut it down.

02:03:41.856 --> 02:03:45.126
Looking at it with curiosity and
trying to figure out now what's

02:03:45.126 --> 02:03:51.666
really going on underneath, you know,
is there an underlying stressor and

02:03:51.666 --> 02:03:55.296
anxiety, a lack of safety, a lack of
connection, you know, there's always

02:03:55.806 --> 02:03:57.576
something going on under the surface.

02:03:57.576 --> 02:03:59.016
There's always a reason for it.

02:04:00.036 --> 02:04:05.406
And sometimes the answer isn't this
direct addressing of the behavior,

02:04:05.436 --> 02:04:11.256
but it's more something else that
needs more support or is lacking.

02:04:14.136 --> 02:04:18.516
Rupert Isaacson: It's funny,
one often thinks of family as.

02:04:19.536 --> 02:04:21.276
One's relationship with one's kids.

02:04:24.576 --> 02:04:27.936
So often we don't do this
with our spouses either.

02:04:28.716 --> 02:04:32.947
You know, we have this kind
of, well, you should, you know.

02:04:32.947 --> 02:04:32.948
Mm-hmm.

02:04:32.949 --> 02:04:32.950
Mm-hmm.

02:04:33.051 --> 02:04:35.316
You're an intelligent person and you
should blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

02:04:35.406 --> 02:04:37.806
You know, with our kids, you
know, we, hopefully anyway we

02:04:37.806 --> 02:04:38.916
can give them a bit more leeway.

02:04:39.216 --> 02:04:43.446
But it's so interesting, isn't it, how
little we let each other off the hook

02:04:44.016 --> 02:04:44.136
Leana Tank: mm-hmm.

02:04:44.376 --> 02:04:49.566
Rupert Isaacson: As spouses, when we're
actually on this boat together and mm-hmm.

02:04:50.766 --> 02:04:54.376
Supposedly pulling on the same ropes
and manning the same rudder and

02:04:54.376 --> 02:04:57.796
down in the engine room trying to
figure out what's up with the boiler.

02:04:58.206 --> 02:05:03.276
But what I think what you said about
radical acceptance is, is really useful.

02:05:03.306 --> 02:05:08.886
And I think I would like you
to come back on and I'd like to

02:05:08.886 --> 02:05:11.826
explore that in greater depth.

02:05:11.826 --> 02:05:17.526
And I'm hoping that you will begin to
run some workshops and some retreats

02:05:17.556 --> 02:05:19.896
on this concept of radical acceptance.

02:05:19.896 --> 02:05:23.856
And I will absolutely put my money
down and come because I think you

02:05:23.856 --> 02:05:33.186
have an unusual set of qualifications
to give you those insights, which

02:05:33.186 --> 02:05:35.046
I think are, are, are, are rare.

02:05:35.586 --> 02:05:40.806
And I'm going to read you
something that you wrote to me.

02:05:40.836 --> 02:05:41.286
Leana Tank: Gosh.

02:05:41.376 --> 02:05:41.766
Oh no.

02:05:43.461 --> 02:05:46.401
Rupert Isaacson: Which I felt,
that's why I asked you to come

02:05:46.401 --> 02:05:47.421
really on, on, on the show.

02:05:47.421 --> 02:05:50.361
I mean, obviously you're awesome and
why would one not want you on the show?

02:05:50.361 --> 02:05:54.381
But it was particularly, it was back
on the 21st of December actually, and

02:05:54.381 --> 02:05:59.571
I had been introducing you to a group
of people and said, you know, wow.

02:05:59.571 --> 02:06:04.131
The work she does and the population
she works with, it's, it's so extreme.

02:06:04.131 --> 02:06:06.351
I, you know, I dunno if I could do
it, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

02:06:06.951 --> 02:06:09.171
And, you know, I'd meant
that as a compliment.

02:06:10.071 --> 02:06:13.851
And this is what I mean by how
well you handle boundaries.

02:06:14.571 --> 02:06:15.411
It's very elegant.

02:06:15.711 --> 02:06:19.791
I, it made me, it made me sit up and
I, I just want listeners to hear this

02:06:19.791 --> 02:06:23.541
and say, so with your permission,
I'm gonna read this 'cause we, okay.

02:06:23.661 --> 02:06:23.841
Leana Tank: Okay.

02:06:23.991 --> 02:06:24.441
Anyway,

02:06:24.591 --> 02:06:26.991
Rupert Isaacson: but I'm gonna
pretend I'm asking you permission.

02:06:26.991 --> 02:06:27.261
Okay.

02:06:27.501 --> 02:06:35.091
So you wrote, the way you ask me to
explain the folk I work with never quite

02:06:35.091 --> 02:06:39.771
sits right with me, and I haven't been
sure why, but I think I can articulate it.

02:06:39.771 --> 02:06:42.441
So I'm gonna try not to
make you feel bad at all.

02:06:43.251 --> 02:06:44.631
More just for my own clarity.

02:06:45.981 --> 02:06:49.461
I feel like they're being made
out to be these monsters and

02:06:49.461 --> 02:06:53.841
they're not, they're like the
most sensitive, vulnerable of all.

02:06:54.561 --> 02:06:58.881
And the ones that are paying
the cost of an inhumane culture,

02:07:01.086 --> 02:07:05.451
they're, they're the shadow
side and we are all capable.

02:07:05.991 --> 02:07:10.521
Of any of the things they've done,
which is why I think they make

02:07:10.521 --> 02:07:15.681
people really uncomfortable and
they get stuck into the margins.

02:07:16.851 --> 02:07:20.541
Beautiful things can be dangerous
and outta control, like a poison

02:07:20.541 --> 02:07:23.331
plant, but like a poison plant.

02:07:23.361 --> 02:07:25.401
They still have a place in the world.

02:07:26.181 --> 02:07:30.531
They just need to be treated with
extra care and respect, but they're not

02:07:30.531 --> 02:07:35.601
monsters totally just as human as anyone.

02:07:35.991 --> 02:07:38.451
And we all have these parts in us.

02:07:39.531 --> 02:07:41.241
People have a hard time facing that.

02:07:41.721 --> 02:07:46.701
So the ones who can't hide it get
labeled monsters and completely othered.

02:07:47.751 --> 02:07:51.531
I want to find a way to talk about
them that doesn't make them so othered.

02:07:51.981 --> 02:07:56.421
Same, doesn't make them seem so
othered, if that makes sense.

02:07:58.311 --> 02:08:02.391
I think that was one of the most
insightful things anyone has ever

02:08:02.391 --> 02:08:04.791
written to me and that I've ever read.

02:08:04.791 --> 02:08:10.221
And this idea of the poison plant
resonated because it's what are

02:08:10.221 --> 02:08:11.691
poison plants often, but medicine?

02:08:12.411 --> 02:08:12.501
Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

02:08:12.981 --> 02:08:13.581
So many

02:08:13.581 --> 02:08:17.271
Rupert Isaacson: of the medicines that
we take are extracted from plants where

02:08:17.271 --> 02:08:19.611
if we didn't get the dosage right.

02:08:20.751 --> 02:08:23.181
It could kill us or knock us out
or have some very severe effect.

02:08:23.481 --> 02:08:27.411
But if we can get the dosage right,
it's incredibly ameliorative.

02:08:27.411 --> 02:08:30.831
And in fact, the entire drug industry
is based around those plant compounds.

02:08:31.631 --> 02:08:35.171
So anything that you can think of that's
been used as a poison, like hemlock or

02:08:36.846 --> 02:08:41.256
nightshade or any of these
things are also medicines.

02:08:41.466 --> 02:08:43.416
Very powerful, very good medicines.

02:08:43.956 --> 02:08:48.786
Things that have strong psychoactive
effects on us, like dacher or ayahuasca

02:08:48.846 --> 02:08:54.006
or peyote or these strong, strong
hallucinogens that could induce

02:08:54.006 --> 02:09:00.456
psychosis in the wrong setting, in
the wrong environment, if misused

02:09:00.936 --> 02:09:02.766
also are incredibly healing.

02:09:02.766 --> 02:09:03.696
And I think that you are

02:09:05.766 --> 02:09:10.536
bringing our attention to these,
to this population of people

02:09:10.536 --> 02:09:11.556
that can actually heal us.

02:09:11.921 --> 02:09:12.341
Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

02:09:12.561 --> 02:09:12.981
Mm-hmm.

02:09:13.026 --> 02:09:13.386
Because it

02:09:13.506 --> 02:09:15.696
Rupert Isaacson: can make us
accept those parts of ourself

02:09:16.716 --> 02:09:18.006
and not have to other ourselves.

02:09:18.306 --> 02:09:20.526
I think there's a, there's
a real merit in that.

02:09:20.576 --> 02:09:23.846
But, but it's not talked about
because it's outside of our can.

02:09:24.806 --> 02:09:27.416
I've also noticed that in the hunter
gatherer communities I've lived

02:09:27.416 --> 02:09:31.226
in, although you do definitely see
psychosis, that psychosis is almost

02:09:31.226 --> 02:09:32.456
always channeled into healing.

02:09:32.456 --> 02:09:32.546
Mm-hmm.

02:09:33.101 --> 02:09:37.586
So the person with schizophrenia
or whatever tends not to do.

02:09:38.651 --> 02:09:41.441
Something destructive to the community.

02:09:42.401 --> 02:09:43.721
Often that person is the shaman.

02:09:44.531 --> 02:09:47.711
Whenever I saw things happening that
were destructive to the community,

02:09:47.951 --> 02:09:51.431
it had always been where people
have been displaced and put in,

02:09:52.601 --> 02:09:55.841
you know, marginal environments and
dispossessed and traumatized and

02:09:56.141 --> 02:09:58.841
given alcohol and, you know, okay.

02:09:59.441 --> 02:10:05.711
But in the, in the, you know, any
of us in that situation do the same

02:10:05.711 --> 02:10:09.761
thing, but in the right environment
know that the psychosis was

02:10:09.761 --> 02:10:13.241
actually a, a mechanism for healing.

02:10:13.391 --> 02:10:17.741
As we close, can you just
give us your thoughts on that?

02:10:17.741 --> 02:10:18.941
Psychosis and healing?

02:10:20.921 --> 02:10:21.401
Leana Tank: Yeah.

02:10:21.431 --> 02:10:21.821
Yeah.

02:10:21.821 --> 02:10:27.371
I mean, a lot of what you just said
definitely resonates, and I feel

02:10:27.371 --> 02:10:32.801
like in a lot of ways this group
of people have been my teachers.

02:10:32.831 --> 02:10:36.911
You know, I've never had the
chance to work with a shaman,

02:10:36.971 --> 02:10:41.021
you know, or learned from really.

02:10:41.021 --> 02:10:47.231
I haven't had these really strong
like mentors in this, in this field.

02:10:47.231 --> 02:10:51.221
I feel like all my learning has
been from these people themselves.

02:10:51.321 --> 02:10:52.821
And they've taught me a lot.

02:10:52.821 --> 02:10:55.281
I think there's a lot to learn from them.

02:10:55.281 --> 02:10:56.601
If you are.

02:10:57.876 --> 02:11:02.056
In a space where you can hear,
hear what they have to teach.

02:11:02.156 --> 02:11:08.186
And, and in my experience too,
that sensitivity, you know, they,

02:11:09.116 --> 02:11:13.946
they are the most sensitive of us.

02:11:13.946 --> 02:11:21.446
And, and when I am working with them
in a way that honors that and sees

02:11:21.446 --> 02:11:26.176
that and acknowledges that and I have
this awareness a little bit of like,

02:11:27.286 --> 02:11:34.216
when you're working more from, from
the heart and from understanding like

02:11:34.756 --> 02:11:39.676
people's energy and connection and
connection to the earth, like they

02:11:39.676 --> 02:11:41.836
really, really resonate with that.

02:11:41.936 --> 02:11:48.986
I, I work with people who they're very
sensitive to if the lights are on or off

02:11:48.986 --> 02:11:54.026
or where's the furniture in the room, and
they'll talk about things in terms of like

02:11:54.026 --> 02:12:01.586
good energy and bad energy and their qi
and, and, and it's perceived as part of

02:12:01.586 --> 02:12:03.266
their mental illness and their psychosis.

02:12:03.266 --> 02:12:06.566
But when I'm looking at it, I'm like,
but it kind of makes sense, you know,

02:12:06.566 --> 02:12:08.276
like, I know what they're trying to say.

02:12:08.276 --> 02:12:15.076
I think that there is even in the most
like, out of touch, you know, kind of

02:12:15.076 --> 02:12:18.406
like, psychotic sounding statements.

02:12:18.406 --> 02:12:23.866
There's an underlying sense to it,
emotional sense, symbolic sense.

02:12:23.916 --> 02:12:29.831
And, and like, I'm not the arbiter
of like, reality, you know, like I

02:12:29.831 --> 02:12:36.191
think it's important that we're not
always thinking like, I'm the one who's

02:12:36.191 --> 02:12:37.871
right about reality and they're wrong.

02:12:37.871 --> 02:12:40.061
I think there's these shared realities.

02:12:40.061 --> 02:12:43.271
There's kind of the general consensus
of what reality is, and then there's

02:12:43.271 --> 02:12:48.291
people that are perceiving things
on a very different level and, and

02:12:48.291 --> 02:12:50.031
expressing it in a different way.

02:12:50.031 --> 02:12:53.181
And who's to say that they're
not perceiving something

02:12:53.181 --> 02:12:54.321
that we just can't perceive?

02:12:54.321 --> 02:12:56.901
You know, there's, there's a lot
out there that we don't understand.

02:12:58.221 --> 02:13:08.631
So, so yeah, I mean, I, it, it's
honestly a really beautiful, interesting,

02:13:10.161 --> 02:13:15.291
you know, lovely group of people to
work with and know, and I'm act I'm

02:13:15.291 --> 02:13:20.331
really sad that the general population
doesn't get to know these people.

02:13:20.331 --> 02:13:24.891
And I, and because of confidentiality
and privacy and things, I can't give a

02:13:24.891 --> 02:13:29.511
lot of specific stories because they're
such characters and they're such unique

02:13:29.691 --> 02:13:33.821
human, real fabulous people that like.

02:13:35.051 --> 02:13:36.191
Any one of you would enjoy.

02:13:37.121 --> 02:13:40.091
So it's hard for me to be able
to explain that without getting

02:13:40.091 --> 02:13:41.621
into a lot of specific details.

02:13:41.621 --> 02:13:42.436
But yeah, I think, listen, it's

02:13:42.436 --> 02:13:44.771
Rupert Isaacson: just to hear
that you say, well, I, I work

02:13:44.771 --> 02:13:46.061
with this population every day.

02:13:48.011 --> 02:13:50.711
That what they weren't expecting,
what none of us would expect to hear

02:13:50.831 --> 02:13:52.751
is, and they're fabulous people.

02:13:52.816 --> 02:13:53.236
Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

02:13:53.321 --> 02:13:53.351
Mm-hmm.

02:13:53.591 --> 02:13:53.651
Yeah.

02:13:54.041 --> 02:13:54.491
Which

02:13:54.851 --> 02:13:59.621
Rupert Isaacson: we must all be
fabulous people because if they're

02:13:59.621 --> 02:14:05.051
fabulous by nature, by by, by, by
definition, by extension, surely,

02:14:05.051 --> 02:14:08.321
therefore, the rest of us must be, and
we all go around beating ourselves up.

02:14:08.411 --> 02:14:09.071
Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

02:14:09.401 --> 02:14:10.121
Rupert Isaacson: But thank you.

02:14:10.841 --> 02:14:13.781
Also, you know, we get into
this conversation a lot here

02:14:13.781 --> 02:14:15.071
about self-actualization.

02:14:15.071 --> 02:14:20.441
And I think there's no question,
you, you know, you, you, your working

02:14:20.441 --> 02:14:24.281
life, your, how it's brought into
your own personal life and so on.

02:14:24.281 --> 02:14:29.771
It's, I think you are a shining
example of someone who's in the

02:14:29.771 --> 02:14:32.261
process of constant self-actualization.

02:14:32.441 --> 02:14:36.431
But what's interesting is the people
that you're working with, you know,

02:14:36.491 --> 02:14:39.971
I think we, we do actually, funnily
enough, have a place for the psychotic

02:14:40.391 --> 02:14:45.641
in our culture, for self recognizing
self-actualization, if we call it genius.

02:14:45.646 --> 02:14:45.826
Mm-hmm.

02:14:45.906 --> 02:14:47.651
And then you can have
someone who's insane.

02:14:47.651 --> 02:14:50.066
You can have, you know, a Vincent
Van Gogh, or you can have mm-hmm.

02:14:50.386 --> 02:14:53.341
I can never remember the name
of the, a high selling Japanese

02:14:53.341 --> 02:14:57.721
artist who, who lives in a shut
in a lockdown, but she mm-hmm.

02:14:58.561 --> 02:15:01.921
You know, amazing stuff, you know,
or a musician or something in the

02:15:01.921 --> 02:15:03.511
arts, or a mad scientist or something.

02:15:03.511 --> 02:15:08.311
We can, but what's interesting to
me here is that we sort of reserve

02:15:08.311 --> 02:15:14.491
that respect for those ones that are
so clearly productive in that way.

02:15:14.701 --> 02:15:14.911
Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

02:15:15.156 --> 02:15:15.436
Mm-hmm.

02:15:15.521 --> 02:15:15.751
But

02:15:16.531 --> 02:15:19.171
Rupert Isaacson: of course, not
everyone can go around being a genius.

02:15:19.171 --> 02:15:23.431
And not every type of genius is
obvious, and not every genius is

02:15:23.431 --> 02:15:25.561
necessarily productive in that way.

02:15:26.371 --> 02:15:27.756
Perhaps it might

02:15:30.451 --> 02:15:38.881
be of comfort to, and part of a
self-actualization process for the

02:15:38.881 --> 02:15:49.381
people that you work with to know that
they help us, perhaps to heal ourselves.

02:15:50.731 --> 02:15:55.051
Might that be worth communicating?

02:15:55.861 --> 02:16:00.661
And if you are, if you are the advocate,
if you are the person who can relay

02:16:00.661 --> 02:16:06.601
that message both to us and to them,
when are you gonna write a book?

02:16:07.621 --> 02:16:10.801
Because we, because I, I
haven't read any, anything.

02:16:10.801 --> 02:16:11.221
Yeah.

02:16:11.311 --> 02:16:11.971
Like this.

02:16:11.971 --> 02:16:13.981
And it's, it's, I think this is, this is.

02:16:16.411 --> 02:16:18.991
Necessary is, you know, well
what's necessary, you know,

02:16:19.261 --> 02:16:20.491
an apple tree is necessary.

02:16:20.496 --> 02:16:20.596
Mm-hmm.

02:16:20.791 --> 02:16:21.991
You know, growing a wheat.

02:16:22.351 --> 02:16:25.831
But I think it is necessary in terms
of, because I, I I, I also believe

02:16:25.831 --> 02:16:31.531
that in the culture that we're in, none
of us is meant, is not mentally ill

02:16:32.071 --> 02:16:36.691
because none of us are living in the
environment that we we're designed for.

02:16:36.691 --> 02:16:39.511
So how can we not go mad on the stress?

02:16:39.511 --> 02:16:41.311
It's just that some forms of madness are

02:16:44.191 --> 02:16:44.671
more,

02:16:44.886 --> 02:16:46.231
Leana Tank: more, more acceptable.

02:16:46.471 --> 02:16:47.101
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

02:16:47.101 --> 02:16:49.891
You know, can, can be, let's
say more easily assimilated.

02:16:49.956 --> 02:16:50.376
Leana Tank: Mm-hmm.

02:16:50.461 --> 02:16:50.971
Mm-hmm.

02:16:51.211 --> 02:16:51.271
Yeah.

02:16:51.271 --> 02:16:51.561
But I think

02:16:51.686 --> 02:16:55.286
Rupert Isaacson: we all know
bonkers, you know, and umhmm that

02:16:55.286 --> 02:16:56.516
therefore the grace of God go.

02:16:56.516 --> 02:16:57.476
I feeling

02:16:58.736 --> 02:17:01.856
closing words also.

02:17:02.726 --> 02:17:05.486
You don't yet, you're not at the point,
you know, a lot of people I interview,

02:17:05.486 --> 02:17:07.076
you know, they have websites or, you know

02:17:07.256 --> 02:17:07.466
Leana Tank: mm-hmm.

02:17:07.706 --> 02:17:12.046
Rupert Isaacson: Contacting to my
knowledge you don't, and I, no, don't

02:17:12.046 --> 02:17:15.406
think you probably wanna be giving
out your email on the, in the thing,

02:17:15.406 --> 02:17:18.436
but if people were to contact me

02:17:18.871 --> 02:17:19.291
Leana Tank: mm-hmm.

02:17:20.091 --> 02:17:20.371
Rupert Isaacson: Questions

02:17:20.791 --> 02:17:21.211
Leana Tank: mm-hmm.

02:17:21.496 --> 02:17:24.736
Rupert Isaacson: Including when
is Leanna gonna run a retreat

02:17:25.846 --> 02:17:25.936
Leana Tank: mm-hmm.

02:17:26.176 --> 02:17:26.326
And a

02:17:26.326 --> 02:17:26.626
Rupert Isaacson: training.

02:17:28.006 --> 02:17:30.406
I will be very happy to relay those.

02:17:31.276 --> 02:17:33.226
And I think.

02:17:34.981 --> 02:17:39.661
If you would put together some sort
of initial retreat or training.

02:17:39.761 --> 02:17:41.351
Here we are, I should date this.

02:17:41.351 --> 02:17:43.061
We are in February, 2025.

02:17:43.301 --> 02:17:46.151
If you're listening to this, five years
from now, she's probably already a me

02:17:46.181 --> 02:17:50.621
mega celebrity in mental health instead
of Leanna, but we got here first.

02:17:51.261 --> 02:17:51.321
So

02:17:53.541 --> 02:17:55.221
is that how we should do it, do you think?

02:17:56.601 --> 02:17:56.871
Leana Tank: Yeah.

02:17:56.871 --> 02:17:58.131
That, that might be the best.

02:17:58.131 --> 02:17:58.431
Yeah.

02:17:58.551 --> 02:17:58.851
Yeah.

02:17:58.911 --> 02:18:03.921
I'm still kind of like in the
process of figuring out what

02:18:04.071 --> 02:18:05.841
that all might look like.

02:18:05.901 --> 02:18:10.521
You know, I get very torn because I feel
very committed to the group of people I

02:18:10.521 --> 02:18:17.271
work with, and I very much feel like I am
always gonna work with that population.

02:18:17.331 --> 02:18:19.491
Like, I just would be sad not to.

02:18:20.001 --> 02:18:28.401
But I also do feel very, a very strong
sense of wanting to share like, the

02:18:28.401 --> 02:18:31.941
things that I've learned, you know, and,
and, and, and support the people who

02:18:31.941 --> 02:18:37.401
are supporting these people and kind
of like spread a better understanding

02:18:37.401 --> 02:18:38.706
and awareness for them story.

02:18:38.806 --> 02:18:39.231
I'm sure he wanted both.

02:18:39.231 --> 02:18:39.831
Yeah.

02:18:40.431 --> 02:18:40.821
Yeah.

02:18:41.121 --> 02:18:41.481
Yeah.

02:18:42.621 --> 02:18:44.391
Rupert Isaacson: What we hope
is that what that looks like?

02:18:45.591 --> 02:18:45.951
Leana Tank: Yeah.

02:18:46.311 --> 02:18:46.611
Yeah.

02:18:47.001 --> 02:18:48.801
Rupert Isaacson: Or at least
an advisor to lawmakers.

02:18:50.481 --> 02:18:50.811
Leana Tank: Yeah.

02:18:51.111 --> 02:18:51.381
Yep.

02:18:51.681 --> 02:18:56.191
I would love to support a better
world for, for them, for sure.

02:18:56.641 --> 02:18:57.451
In any way I can.

02:18:57.601 --> 02:18:58.381
So, yeah.

02:19:01.366 --> 02:19:03.316
Rupert Isaacson: Well,
Leanna, it's been brilliant.

02:19:03.316 --> 02:19:03.826
Thank you.

02:19:05.026 --> 02:19:06.076
Leana Tank: Yeah, thank you.

02:19:07.126 --> 02:19:08.986
Rupert Isaacson: I look
forward to the conversation.

02:19:10.336 --> 02:19:11.086
Alright, my friend.

02:19:11.656 --> 02:19:11.896
Leana Tank: All right,

02:19:11.896 --> 02:19:12.016
Rupert Isaacson: so bye.

02:19:12.886 --> 02:19:16.336
So anyone listening, if you wanna
get in touch with her, contact us.

02:19:16.386 --> 02:19:22.656
You've got all the email links and
website links, and if you want to put

02:19:22.656 --> 02:19:29.056
your name down for a retreat and training
with this clear genius send it to us.

02:19:29.086 --> 02:19:31.456
We'll get a group of you together
and we'll figure out where to do it.

02:19:32.386 --> 02:19:35.206
Could be stateside, could be Europe side.

02:19:35.206 --> 02:19:35.836
Could be both.

02:19:35.926 --> 02:19:36.286
Why not?

02:19:36.946 --> 02:19:37.186
Okay.

02:19:39.076 --> 02:19:39.376
All right.

02:19:39.376 --> 02:19:40.306
We'll come sit at your feet.

02:19:44.236 --> 02:19:44.626
Okay.

02:19:45.076 --> 02:19:45.766
Till next time.

02:19:46.276 --> 02:19:46.636
Leana Tank: All right,

02:19:46.876 --> 02:19:47.086
Rupert Isaacson: bye.

02:19:47.091 --> 02:19:47.291
Thank you.

02:19:48.083 --> 02:19:51.203
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