00:04-00:05
After

00:05-00:12
250 yards, leave the roundabout at the third exit and then follow the A351.

00:14-00:14
I

00:14-00:19
was listening to a podcast about a battle in Normandy.

00:22-00:23
Please

00:23-00:24
take the third exit.

00:26-00:31
to get the Germans out of Normandy which has these incredibly steep

00:31-00:35
pitches.

00:37-00:43
They're going to defensively defend very easily right now.

00:45-00:45
Until

00:45-00:50
they discover that they've got a spike from the main attack.

01:20-01:22
*Metal

01:22-01:25
150 yards, leave the roundabout at the first exit.

01:37-01:38
Please

01:38-01:39
take the first exit.

01:51-01:55
After 100 hours, we need the roundabout at the second exit.

01:55-01:55
You

Adam Cecil: 
01:55-01:58
just heard the first two minutes or so of Dog FM.

Adam Cecil: 
01:59-02:03
That's the debut release of Oliver Chapman and Phoebe Eccles,

Adam Cecil: 
02:03-02:07
who are my guests tonight on the Nightwater podcast,

Adam Cecil: 
02:07-02:10
the official audio companion to the Nightwater newsletter.

Adam Cecil: 
02:11-02:12
Okay, so imagine this.

Adam Cecil: 
02:12-02:14
You wake up in the middle of the night.

Adam Cecil: 
02:14-02:15
You are parched.

Adam Cecil: 
02:15-02:18
You stumble out of bed towards the kitchen,

Adam Cecil: 
02:18-02:20
seeking the cold touch of fresh water.

Adam Cecil: 
02:20-02:21
on your lips.

Adam Cecil: 
02:21-02:22
You

Adam Cecil: 
02:22-02:26
pour yourself a glass and guzzle it down. Nothing has ever tasted so good.

Adam Cecil: 
02:27-02:32
Your mind and your body are completely refreshed and you're ready to return to bed for a blissful,

Adam Cecil: 
02:33-02:33
dreamless sleep.

Adam Cecil: 
02:34-02:35
That's

Adam Cecil: 
02:35-02:39
exactly what it's like to read Nightwater. It's a late night niche culture

Adam Cecil: 
02:39-02:44
newsletter. It comes out most Tuesdays at 11 p.m. Eastern. Here's what one satisfied subscriber

Adam Cecil: 
02:44-02:51
wrote about Nightwater recently. They said, I can confidently say that Nightwater is one of the

Adam Cecil: 
02:51-02:56
weirder newsletters I subscribe to, and which you might enjoy for its utterly idiosyncratic approach

Adam Cecil: 
02:57-02:58
to subject matter.

Adam Cecil: 
02:58-02:59
That

Adam Cecil: 
02:59-03:03
about sums it up, including the emphasis on might enjoy. My name is Adam

Adam Cecil: 
03:03-03:09
Cecil. I write Nightwater, and I am your host this evening. Let's get back to Dog FM. I came across

Adam Cecil: 
03:09-03:10
this,

Adam Cecil: 
03:10-03:11
I'm

Adam Cecil: 
03:11-03:16
not really sure what to call it, album, experimental audio project, surreal, narrative-less

Adam Cecil: 
03:16-03:22
audio drama, whatever you want to call it, I came across it on Bandcamp. Bandcamp featured it as one

Adam Cecil: 
03:22-03:27
of the best new field recording releases for February 2025, and I was immediately hooked just

Adam Cecil: 
03:27-03:34
by the name Dog FM. In addition to being on Bandcamp, it's also a cassette. Side A is called

Adam Cecil: 
03:34-03:39
Made by Dogs, Side B is called For Dogs, and of course the animal featured on the cover is

Adam Cecil: 
03:39-03:40
A

Adam Cecil: 
03:40-03:40
Pig.

Adam Cecil: 
03:40-03:41
I've

Adam Cecil: 
03:41-03:46
been listening to it a lot since I've picked it up. I find it captivating. Like I said

Adam Cecil: 
03:46-03:51
before, you could call it kind of a narrative-less audio drama. There is a real structure to it,

Adam Cecil: 
03:51-03:56
in large part thanks to kind of three threads that are pulled through the entire piece. So

Adam Cecil: 
03:56-04:02
one is this conversation on a family road trip where Oliver's family got lost and quite frustrated

Adam Cecil: 
04:02-04:07
with each other. Second are the dog noises, the panting, the whining that kind of follow us

Adam Cecil: 
04:07-04:12
through the whole piece. And third is Phoebe's poetry. Not that the poetry gives us any sense

Adam Cecil: 
04:12-04:17
of a storyline per se, but it adds another layer, another entry point into understanding how the

Adam Cecil: 
04:18-04:22
soundscape and the music is making you feel. And I've been really loving it. I've been listening

Adam Cecil: 
04:23-04:28
to Dog FM a lot on my iPod before I go to sleep, which might be one reason why I've been having

Adam Cecil: 
04:28-04:33
very odd dreams recently. In any case, I'm so thankful that Oliver and Phoebe gave me some of

Adam Cecil: 
04:33-04:38
their time to talk about the origins of Dog FM, how they composed this piece, and of course,

Adam Cecil: 
04:39-04:44
their ideal late night vibes. But before I jump into the interview, just want to remind you,

Adam Cecil: 
04:44-04:46
if you're not already subscribed to the Nightwater newsletter,

Adam Cecil: 
04:47-04:47
please

Adam Cecil: 
04:47-04:49
do so at nightwater.email.

Adam Cecil: 
04:49-04:55
That is a URL, totally free with an optional paid tier. If you want to give your financial support,

Adam Cecil: 
04:55-04:56
I would really appreciate it.

Adam Cecil: 
04:56-04:57
All

Adam Cecil: 
04:57-04:57
right,

Adam Cecil: 
04:57-04:58
here's

Adam Cecil: 
04:58-05:00
Oliver Chapman and Phoebe Eccles here to talk about

Adam Cecil: 
05:01-05:02
Dog FM.

Adam Cecil: 
05:19-05:19
uh

Adam Cecil: 
05:19-05:25
well oliver and phoebe thank you so much for for joining the nightwater podcast uh i would love

Adam Cecil: 
05:25-05:30
i mean could you just describe both of you just describe yourselves and your

Oliver Chapman: 
05:30-05:31
art so far

Oliver Chapman: 
05:31-05:32
well

Oliver Chapman: 
05:32-05:32
we

Oliver Chapman: 
05:32-05:36
actually had a conversation about this question and we thought we would just is it okay if we

Oliver Chapman: 
05:36-05:41
describe each other and then describe our own art because i love that i love that bb can you

Oliver Chapman: 
05:41-05:42
describe me first oh

Phoebe Eccles: 
05:42-05:48
i was going to tell you to describe me first um ollie is my lovely friend

Phoebe Eccles: 
05:48-05:57
he's pretty tall he um yeah he's he's an interesting person he's very funny and he's been

Phoebe Eccles: 
05:57-06:03
making art or specifically music um for all the years that i've known him but through sort of

Phoebe Eccles: 
06:03-06:10
different different sorry this is going into your um yeah you're treading into my heart yeah no just

Phoebe Eccles: 
06:10-06:14
back to back to early yeah he's great fun and he's very wise as well

Phoebe Eccles: 
06:14-06:16
yeah

Phoebe Eccles: 
06:16-06:18
well

Oliver Chapman: 
06:18-06:19
i'd say phoebe

Oliver Chapman: 
06:20-06:24
you've got a lot of a lot of wisdom i was gonna i was gonna say his hidden wisdom but it's not

Oliver Chapman: 
06:24-06:29
that hidden I think you share it quite freely on the surface hopefully um you're good company

Oliver Chapman: 
06:30-06:32
you're also very funny oh

Phoebe Eccles: 
06:32-06:32
and

Oliver Chapman: 
06:32-06:33
a good friend

Oliver Chapman: 
06:33-06:35
and

Oliver Chapman: 
06:35-06:38
I think a wonderful creative as well

Oliver Chapman: 
06:39-06:40
shall I describe my art first

Oliver Chapman: 
06:40-06:42
yeah I

Oliver Chapman: 
06:42-06:45
mean I've made loads of stuff over the years I've made work

Oliver Chapman: 
06:45-06:47
since I was a teenager but I think

Oliver Chapman: 
06:47-06:48
my

Oliver Chapman: 
06:48-06:51
kind of favorite type of work is always a kind of that

Oliver Chapman: 
06:51-06:58
I've made is always a kind of combination of sincerity and irreverence kind of playful

Oliver Chapman: 
06:59-07:04
and surreal I would say so often combining those things in one way or another through different

Oliver Chapman: 
07:04-07:05
different forms but

Oliver Chapman: 
07:05-07:06
yeah

Oliver Chapman: 
07:06-07:07
often has those qualities.

07:08-07:08
I'd

Phoebe Eccles: 
07:08-07:11
say that I write poetry and I've been doing

Phoebe Eccles: 
07:11-07:17
that for a few years although maybe it's only being published a bit more in the recent recent

Phoebe Eccles: 
07:17-07:24
last couple years um and I guess my poetry is yeah I don't really know how to describe it I

Phoebe Eccles: 
07:24-07:27
guess sometimes I'm using the lyric voice but I'm also sort of interested in

Phoebe Eccles: 
07:27-07:29
in

Phoebe Eccles: 
07:29-07:30
the sort of more

Phoebe Eccles: 
07:30-07:35
experimental or strange side although I feel like most poetry kind of veers into that even when it's

Phoebe Eccles: 
07:35-07:36
not trying to

07:36-07:37
I

Adam Cecil: 
07:37-07:41
mean so I'm curious like I mean just the process of putting together dog fm I

Adam Cecil: 
07:41-07:46
mean so you guys have been friends for a while how did you meet and how did you just decide to

Adam Cecil: 
07:46-07:47
collaborate on something together

07:47-07:48
how

Oliver Chapman: 
07:48-07:50
did we meet do you want to tell that story phoebe

Oliver Chapman: 
07:52-07:54
it's not particularly it's not a particularly exciting one

07:56-07:57
we

Phoebe Eccles: 
07:57-08:02
were saying before it's sorted through through people we were dating so i was dating someone and

Phoebe Eccles: 
08:02-08:07
then through met ollie through that group of friends and then i became very good friends

Phoebe Eccles: 
08:08-08:12
with someone that ollie was dating and is still very good friends with and who i'm still very

Phoebe Eccles: 
08:12-08:18
good friends with so I think through these links um we've known each other for a while but I'd say

Phoebe Eccles: 
08:18-08:21
we sort of became closer friends over the last year or so

Oliver Chapman: 
08:21-08:23
yeah I was I've always really

Oliver Chapman: 
08:23-08:24
had

Oliver Chapman: 
08:24-08:24
a

Oliver Chapman: 
08:24-08:25
great time hanging out but we never

Oliver Chapman: 
08:25-08:27
quite

Oliver Chapman: 
08:27-08:27
like

Oliver Chapman: 
08:27-08:28
gotten

Oliver Chapman: 
08:28-08:30
closer until this year

08:30-08:31
yeah and

Oliver Chapman: 
08:31-08:31
then I

Oliver Chapman: 
08:31-08:35
think it was I always really loved Phoebe's work

Oliver Chapman: 
08:35-08:36
and

Oliver Chapman: 
08:36-08:38
when I got into field recording which was

Oliver Chapman: 
08:38-08:43
quite new to me only about a year and a half ago I was looking for a collaborator and

Oliver Chapman: 
08:43-08:44
I

Oliver Chapman: 
08:44-08:44
thought

Oliver Chapman: 
08:45-08:53
Phoebe would be ideal both to become better friends with her of course but also because I

Oliver Chapman: 
08:53-08:58
really liked her work yeah so that's that's how it started. So what was the I mean what was the

Oliver Chapman: 
08:58-08:59
genesis of this project in

Adam Cecil: 
08:59-09:02
particular Dog FM you know how did you

Adam Cecil: 
09:02-09:03
come

Adam Cecil: 
09:03-09:04
to this idea?

09:04-09:04
I

Oliver Chapman: 
09:04-09:04
would say

Oliver Chapman: 
09:04-09:09
we kind of stumbled across it blindly and I mean like I said I had um

Oliver Chapman: 
09:09-09:10
I

Oliver Chapman: 
09:10-09:11
got into field recording

Oliver Chapman: 
09:11-09:12
music kind of

Oliver Chapman: 
09:12-09:14
almost

Oliver Chapman: 
09:14-09:16
accidentally somebody recommended me a

Oliver Chapman: 
09:16-09:17
an

Oliver Chapman: 
09:17-09:18
ambient album it was

Oliver Chapman: 
09:18-09:22
actually a soundtrack from a film and I got really into that it was it was a bug's life

Oliver Chapman: 
09:22-09:28
the ambient sounds of a bug's life and then I also discovered uh one of my colleagues was

Oliver Chapman: 
09:28-09:34
field recording royalty I work in a school and I work with this man called Mr Lampkin

Oliver Chapman: 
09:34-09:37
And it turned out that he was Graham Lemkin, who,

Oliver Chapman: 
09:37-09:38
well,

Oliver Chapman: 
09:39-09:40
little did I know, was a field recording celebrity.

Oliver Chapman: 
09:41-09:45
And at the same time, so at the same time as this, I kind of got into his work.

Oliver Chapman: 
09:45-09:50
And then I, I think, enrolled on an evening course at Goldsmith to do field recording.

Oliver Chapman: 
09:50-09:52
And I started taking samples.

Oliver Chapman: 
09:52-09:57
And I think our first conversation was, let's put poetry and field recording together.

Oliver Chapman: 
09:58-09:59
That

Oliver Chapman: 
09:59-09:59
was where we started.

Oliver Chapman: 
09:59-10:02
There was no idea of where that would go.

Oliver Chapman: 
10:03-10:03
And

Oliver Chapman: 
10:03-10:07
then it kind of slowly morphed over months, really slowly.

Oliver Chapman: 
10:07-10:10
I knew that I wanted to make something kind of long form,

Oliver Chapman: 
10:11-10:15
both in terms of process and in terms of the actual experience of listening.

Oliver Chapman: 
10:16-10:18
But I had no idea that it would end up being what it was,

Oliver Chapman: 
10:19-10:21
apart from being something that included poetry.

Oliver Chapman: 
10:22-10:24
Yeah, what was your experience, Phoebe?

Oliver Chapman: 
10:24-10:27
Because I guess we're on slightly different sides of the project.

10:28-10:29
Yeah,

Phoebe Eccles: 
10:29-10:31
I guess at first, because I was thinking about it

Phoebe Eccles: 
10:31-10:39
from the poetry side and Ollie said how do you feel about recording your poems um with sound

Phoebe Eccles: 
10:40-10:44
and I didn't really know what that was going to look like and I think at first I was a bit

Phoebe Eccles: 
10:44-10:50
anxious about it because poetry sometimes when it's said out loud is embarrassing

Phoebe Eccles: 
10:51-10:58
and I didn't want to be I didn't want to embarrass myself um and I did find when I was first reading

Phoebe Eccles: 
10:58-11:05
poems it was really hard to avoid poet's voice um so I think the early process for me was sort

Phoebe Eccles: 
11:05-11:10
of figuring out with Ollie actually how to sort of how to shift from that and how to change that

Phoebe Eccles: 
11:10-11:12
and I think what happened is as the project got bigger

Phoebe Eccles: 
11:12-11:13
which

Phoebe Eccles: 
11:13-11:14
I didn't know it was going to get

Phoebe Eccles: 
11:14-11:16
so big maybe you did know I think we

Oliver Chapman: 
11:16-11:17
started with less in terms of

Phoebe Eccles: 
11:17-11:18
like long

Oliver Chapman: 
11:18-11:20
yeah I think we started

Oliver Chapman: 
11:20-11:24
with let's make something worth 15 minutes we had no idea how it was going to be tied together

Oliver Chapman: 
11:24-11:26
And it really, I think it was shaped just by

Oliver Chapman: 
11:26-11:28
the

Oliver Chapman: 
11:28-11:29
samples that I was getting.

Oliver Chapman: 
11:29-11:34
So it wasn't that I kind of recorded loads of stuff and then was like, let's make something out of this.

Oliver Chapman: 
11:34-11:41
We were kind of recording samples and making the composition at the same time.

Oliver Chapman: 
11:41-11:41
So it kind of

Oliver Chapman: 
11:41-11:44
got

Oliver Chapman: 
11:44-11:48
molded together and it was kind of shaped by whatever I came across.

Adam Cecil: 
11:50-11:51
Is that true for the poetry as well?

Adam Cecil: 
11:51-11:55
Were you writing the poetry along with the recordings and the composition?

Phoebe Eccles: 
11:55-12:00
So the first two poems in the piece I'd written before, but we sort of tried a few poems.

Phoebe Eccles: 
12:00-12:02
So the first poem we recorded was a poem that I'd

Phoebe Eccles: 
12:02-12:03
been

Phoebe Eccles: 
12:03-12:04
working on for a long time,

Phoebe Eccles: 
12:04-12:07
a longer poem than any of the ones in the piece and a poem that I

Phoebe Eccles: 
12:07-12:08
think

Phoebe Eccles: 
12:08-12:09
is good.

Phoebe Eccles: 
12:09-12:11
But it's a poem with quite a distinct

Phoebe Eccles: 
12:11-12:12
emotional

Phoebe Eccles: 
12:12-12:13
tone to it.

Phoebe Eccles: 
12:13-12:16
And I think when we were working on it, actually, it sounded great, didn't it?

Phoebe Eccles: 
12:17-12:21
because we had these sort of like stirring chords that came in at one point.

Phoebe Eccles: 
12:21-12:23
Oh, the very first thing that ended up

Oliver Chapman: 
12:23-12:24
not being on the piece.

Oliver Chapman: 
12:24-12:25
Yeah, exactly.

Oliver Chapman: 
12:25-12:25
That's right.

Oliver Chapman: 
12:25-12:26
Yeah, and

Phoebe Eccles: 
12:26-12:29
it did sound good, but I think in the end we dropped it

Phoebe Eccles: 
12:29-12:33
because it wasn't quite working or it didn't feel quite right with the overall piece.

Phoebe Eccles: 
12:33-12:35
So we dropped that and then we tried a few different poems.

Phoebe Eccles: 
12:35-12:40
So the first two poems were, I think I edited them slightly the more I spoke them

Phoebe Eccles: 
12:40-12:46
to sort of make them sound more conversational, but barely, just a tiny bit.

Phoebe Eccles: 
12:46-12:52
And then the third poem I wrote in response to everything that Ollie had made or that we'd made.

Phoebe Eccles: 
12:52-12:55
Yeah, no, that was kind of like, yeah,

Oliver Chapman: 
12:55-12:58
because the whole thing took about eight months, I would say.

Oliver Chapman: 
12:59-13:05
And yeah, you kind of wrote the final poem in response to what we'd made up until that point, which was pretty much the whole thing.

Oliver Chapman: 
13:06-13:07
But yeah, I would say the process was,

Oliver Chapman: 
13:08-13:09
you

Oliver Chapman: 
13:09-13:13
know, certainly starting very blindly and over time it took shape.

Oliver Chapman: 
13:13-13:18
And I think it really took shape when I happened to get those recordings

Oliver Chapman: 
13:18-13:19
of my family and the dog in the car.

Oliver Chapman: 
13:20-13:26
And that was a pure accident that I got captured that moment.

Oliver Chapman: 
13:27-13:27
I

Oliver Chapman: 
13:27-13:30
really wasn't aware of that conversation going on when I was recording it.

Oliver Chapman: 
13:30-13:32
I was just recording the dog.

Oliver Chapman: 
13:32-13:32
I've

13:32-13:32
had a friend that has

Phoebe Eccles: 
13:32-13:33
a reception.

Phoebe Eccles: 
13:34-13:35
He

Phoebe Eccles: 
13:35-13:36
can order live vacations.

13:37-13:38
It doesn't work for me.

13:39-13:40
It doesn't work for my family.

13:40-13:40
And I've had no

Phoebe Eccles: 
13:40-13:41
reception.

13:42-13:42
I don't know why we...

13:45-13:45
On

13:45-13:47
the website that was posted.

13:48-13:49
I

Phoebe Eccles: 
13:49-13:49
was

13:49-13:49
supposed to

Phoebe Eccles: 
13:49-13:50
go to Google Maps

13:50-13:51
link.

13:51-13:52
That's where we are.

Phoebe Eccles: 
13:52-13:53
Sorry, say it again.

13:54-13:56
I was supposed to go to Google Maps link.

13:57-13:58
That's actually where we are.

13:58-13:58
Yeah,

Adam Cecil: 
13:58-13:59
your live location.

Phoebe Eccles: 
14:00-14:01
No, not my live location.

14:02-14:03
I posted a Google Maps link.

14:06-14:07
Why

14:07-14:09
we just can't follow each other in a car like we used to do.

14:10-14:10
That would be a lot easier.

14:12-14:17
I know that Matilda is trying... I have no reception. Can I turn off...

14:17-14:19
Can you get off my

14:19-14:20
phone?

14:20-14:21
That

Oliver Chapman: 
14:21-14:24
obviously forms the narrative thread of the piece and I think that's when it...

Oliver Chapman: 
14:25-14:27
there was something to kind of thread all this...

Oliver Chapman: 
14:27-14:28
all

Oliver Chapman: 
14:28-14:30
these soundscapes and poems together.

Oliver Chapman: 
14:30-14:35
I think without... before that it was a bit kind of... you know, meandering.

Oliver Chapman: 
14:35-14:42
it was it was uh you know so i think that which was you know um i was expecting um but yeah it

Oliver Chapman: 
14:42-14:45
was it was that that was when it kind of started to make sense i guess yeah

Phoebe Eccles: 
14:45-14:46
i think the contrast

Phoebe Eccles: 
14:46-14:52
of the of the natural speech of your family um and and those words existing in a very particular

Phoebe Eccles: 
14:52-14:58
way um and then the poems coming in and being in such a different kind of sphere or um yeah

Phoebe Eccles: 
14:58-15:02
language being used in such a very different way and then that was so big with the sounds which

Phoebe Eccles: 
15:02-15:05
also a kind of language I think yeah that that really worked well.

15:05-15:06
Yeah

Oliver Chapman: 
15:06-15:07
and suddenly then these

Oliver Chapman: 
15:07-15:09
other soundscapes I'd made kind of

Oliver Chapman: 
15:09-15:10
yeah

Oliver Chapman: 
15:10-15:14
they felt connected with that with the space of the car and

Oliver Chapman: 
15:14-15:16
the family and it all made sense you know

Oliver Chapman: 
15:16-15:17
it

Oliver Chapman: 
15:17-15:21
was something to kind of connect with I think in a

Oliver Chapman: 
15:21-15:24
tangible way. I think it actually reflects also my like

Oliver Chapman: 
15:24-15:25
enthusiasm

Oliver Chapman: 
15:25-15:27
and excitement for like going

Oliver Chapman: 
15:27-15:34
around mainly London just recording stuff and without planning to it that's the way it was

Oliver Chapman: 
15:34-15:40
it was shaped by that definitely and I was just excited to kind of explore different soundscapes

Oliver Chapman: 
15:40-15:45
and see what I could make and these different spaces and ambiences and moods yeah

15:45-15:46
for

Adam Cecil: 
15:46-15:47
the poetry

Adam Cecil: 
15:48-15:53
side of things so you said that you know you were kind of finding your own like reading voice while

Adam Cecil: 
15:53-15:57
you were recording I mean is that something that you've done a lot of before a lot of readings

Adam Cecil: 
15:57-16:00
any kind of recording of your poetry before um

Phoebe Eccles: 
16:00-16:03
I don't think any recording um quite a few years

Phoebe Eccles: 
16:03-16:04
ago I was doing

Phoebe Eccles: 
16:04-16:05
I

Phoebe Eccles: 
16:05-16:07
was doing spoken word but I didn't really

Phoebe Eccles: 
16:07-16:08
I

Phoebe Eccles: 
16:08-16:09
guess I was trying to be a stand-up

Phoebe Eccles: 
16:09-16:13
comedian but I was rhyming and it was it's it's quite easy to make people laugh you were you

Oliver Chapman: 
16:13-16:13
were

Oliver Chapman: 
16:13-16:16
you were funny definitely I mean still are but but

Phoebe Eccles: 
16:16-16:17
then when I tried to do

16:19-16:19
business

Oliver Chapman: 
16:19-16:24
is it was it was i remember your early performances being being fun they're laughing a

Oliver Chapman: 
16:24-16:25
lot i was like

Phoebe Eccles: 
16:25-16:28
don't waste people's time on stage if you're not going to make them laugh but um

Phoebe Eccles: 
16:28-16:29
but

Phoebe Eccles: 
16:29-16:33
then when i tried to do stand up without rhyming it didn't it didn't work it went wrong

Phoebe Eccles: 
16:33-16:36
so then i then i thought i'm no longer going to make jokes i'm just going to write

Phoebe Eccles: 
16:37-16:40
serious experimental poetry it's going to be

Phoebe Eccles: 
16:40-16:41
hard

Phoebe Eccles: 
16:41-16:44
to listen to but um i like i like listening to

Phoebe Eccles: 
16:44-16:48
poetry I really like going to readings well I should probably go more but whenever I go and I

Phoebe Eccles: 
16:49-16:53
hear a great poet I went to one just last week and I was like this poetry is amazing and to listen to

Phoebe Eccles: 
16:53-16:59
it is it is a different experience and it's it can be really lovely but no I've never recorded

Phoebe Eccles: 
16:59-17:01
my poetry before and I think

Phoebe Eccles: 
17:01-17:02
watching

Phoebe Eccles: 
17:02-17:06
it go from the earlier drafts of Dog FM or the earlier drafts

Phoebe Eccles: 
17:06-17:07
of the poems to what it is now is

Phoebe Eccles: 
17:07-17:08
is

Phoebe Eccles: 
17:08-17:11
really nice because we worked quite a lot on how I'd read the

Phoebe Eccles: 
17:11-17:15
poems and um and I guess maybe I'd read poems differently for a different project but

Phoebe Eccles: 
17:15-17:16
or

Phoebe Eccles: 
17:16-17:16
if it

Phoebe Eccles: 
17:16-17:21
was without the sounds but I think the way we read the yeah the way we figured out how I would read

Phoebe Eccles: 
17:21-17:24
the poems I very much like figured that out with Ollie um with

Phoebe Eccles: 
17:24-17:25
yeah

Phoebe Eccles: 
17:25-17:27
it was quite a specific process

Phoebe Eccles: 
17:27-17:31
yeah it wasn't it wasn't immediately obvious how to do that

Phoebe Eccles: 
17:31-17:32
in

Phoebe Eccles: 
17:32-17:33
a way that worked and

Oliver Chapman: 
17:33-17:34
yeah I think

Oliver Chapman: 
17:34-17:37
we ended up being quite conversational and

Oliver Chapman: 
17:37-17:38
I

Oliver Chapman: 
17:38-17:40
think somebody used the word unambitious which I think

Oliver Chapman: 
17:40-17:42
is a nice way of putting it like it

Oliver Chapman: 
17:42-17:43
it

Oliver Chapman: 
17:43-17:46
didn't add too much I think poetry voice can sometimes feel

Oliver Chapman: 
17:46-17:50
like it's adding more weight and meaning than it needs to and I think

Oliver Chapman: 
17:50-17:51
yeah

Oliver Chapman: 
17:51-17:52
your your delivery is

Oliver Chapman: 
17:52-17:54
really natural certainly to your voice and

Oliver Chapman: 
17:54-17:56
yeah yeah

Oliver Chapman: 
17:56-17:57
I think

Phoebe Eccles: 
17:57-17:58
the poem doesn't want to sound too

Phoebe Eccles: 
17:58-18:01
sure of itself because it isn't sure of itself and you don't you know like I don't know what

Phoebe Eccles: 
18:01-18:06
the poems mean and I don't I don't want to sound like I know what the poems mean I think they want

Phoebe Eccles: 
18:06-18:12
to be in this space that is uncertain and is sort of clambering along with the other noises so also

Phoebe Eccles: 
18:12-18:16
yeah at one point we were like we need to I wanted yeah we wanted to turn my voice down because you

Phoebe Eccles: 
18:16-18:20
didn't want it to be like here now listen to this word it wanted to be something that you could

Phoebe Eccles: 
18:21-18:24
yeah because when you're listening to poetry you're not following completely you're sometimes

Phoebe Eccles: 
18:24-18:26
drifting in and out as well and

Oliver Chapman: 
18:26-18:28
the sound is important isn't it just as just as much as the

Oliver Chapman: 
18:28-18:31
kind of the meaning of the words just the sound of it yeah yeah

Phoebe Eccles: 
18:31-18:32
absolutely yeah

Oliver Chapman: 
18:32-18:32
yeah

18:39-18:39
When

Phoebe Eccles: 
18:39-18:41
the moon exploded,

Phoebe Eccles: 
18:41-18:42
only

Phoebe Eccles: 
18:42-18:45
a tiny chunk of it landed on the earth.

Phoebe Eccles: 
18:46-18:51
Big enough still to be crane lifted and then carefully lowered into the tased turbine hall

Phoebe Eccles: 
18:51-18:56
where it hung from the ceiling for a month or two, growing weird sporish things like

Phoebe Eccles: 
18:56-18:57
hairs on her chin.

Phoebe Eccles: 
18:58-19:03
No, they were more like tentacles, the way they snaked muscular through the air, following

Phoebe Eccles: 
19:03-19:04
visitors,

Phoebe Eccles: 
19:04-19:05
blinking

Phoebe Eccles: 
19:05-19:05
at the rim.

Phoebe Eccles: 
19:06-19:10
You could actually feed these things, they would take whatever you gave them.

Phoebe Eccles: 
19:11-19:11
I

Phoebe Eccles: 
19:11-19:13
didn't get to see the exhibition.

Phoebe Eccles: 
19:14-19:16
My days were busy with shifts at the cafe.

Phoebe Eccles: 
19:17-19:20
The quiet winter hours were perfect for deep cleaning the toilets.

Phoebe Eccles: 
19:21-19:23
The walls had turned streaky grey by the hand dryer.

Phoebe Eccles: 
19:25-19:32
I admit I was ashamed associating as I did hospitality with oversharing.

Phoebe Eccles: 
19:33-19:34
Some

Phoebe Eccles: 
19:34-19:36
years ago, and this has always haunted me,

Phoebe Eccles: 
19:37-19:39
I held the hands of a politician over the counter

Phoebe Eccles: 
19:40-19:42
and we had sobbed at our respective losses.

19:45-19:45
Yeah,

Adam Cecil: 
19:45-19:46
I mean, I love that approach.

Adam Cecil: 
19:47-19:49
I mean, because also there's a real intimacy to that,

Adam Cecil: 
19:50-19:52
to the way that you read it

Adam Cecil: 
19:52-19:57
and also the way that it's all kind of wrapped up in the sound, in the soundscape as well,

Adam Cecil: 
19:58-19:59
which is really interesting to me.

Adam Cecil: 
19:59-20:00
I

Adam Cecil: 
20:00-20:02
mean, so I'm curious, I mean, like you're talking a little bit

Adam Cecil: 
20:02-20:08
about the recording, and kind of how you, you know, were composing as you were recording,

Adam Cecil: 
20:08-20:15
but like, what did that composition process really look like in terms of, you know, how did

Adam Cecil: 
20:15-20:20
you approach what you were creating? I mean, I was super interested in just like kind of the layering

Adam Cecil: 
20:20-20:24
and the collaging of like the music and the poetry and the sounds and then like the field recordings

Adam Cecil: 
20:24-20:29
and kind of the way you move between all those different things so i'm curious kind of just

Adam Cecil: 
20:29-20:31
yeah what that process looked like for you

Oliver Chapman: 
20:31-20:33
the piece is kind of made up of all these different

Oliver Chapman: 
20:34-20:39
scenes and they feel quite distinct from each other um and they're kind of

Oliver Chapman: 
20:39-20:40
uh glued

Oliver Chapman: 
20:40-20:41
together by

Oliver Chapman: 
20:42-20:42
you

Oliver Chapman: 
20:42-20:47
know returning to the car and the dog and the family uh but

Oliver Chapman: 
20:47-20:48
in

Oliver Chapman: 
20:48-20:48
amongst that

Oliver Chapman: 
20:48-20:49
i

Oliver Chapman: 
20:49-20:50
guess at

Oliver Chapman: 
20:50-20:59
they were quite disparate pieces that I'd made. It was a really slow process. I think it's even

Oliver Chapman: 
20:59-21:05
hard to kind of remember recall exactly how it went but it just felt like slowly sculpting

Oliver Chapman: 
21:05-21:11
something. I guess with anything like that, that abstract especially, starting is the hardest point

Oliver Chapman: 
21:11-21:14
and just finding something that you connect with.

Oliver Chapman: 
21:15-21:15
Yeah

Oliver Chapman: 
21:15-21:18
I guess it was just a case of lots of trial

Oliver Chapman: 
21:18-21:23
and error and lots i guess it's again when you're working with something that abstract a lot of it's

Oliver Chapman: 
21:23-21:28
quite instinctual which is why i really enjoyed it i'm my background in music is songwriting

Oliver Chapman: 
21:29-21:33
so i was doing something completely new and i think instead of thinking about the structure

Oliver Chapman: 
21:33-21:38
of a song i was kind of thinking about the overall arc in terms of your kind of experience of

Oliver Chapman: 
21:39-21:45
listening to these kind of mini scenes or the overall piece all together and i guess i was

Oliver Chapman: 
21:45-21:51
thinking about stuff in terms of like space in terms of the how airy or dense it was like light

Oliver Chapman: 
21:51-21:56
light and dark how things were contrasted with each other from scene to scene or even within

Oliver Chapman: 
21:57-22:02
within the same scene i i was i only could kind of conceptualize it retrospectively

Oliver Chapman: 
22:02-22:03
at

Oliver Chapman: 
22:03-22:04
the time

Oliver Chapman: 
22:04-22:05
it's really based on

Oliver Chapman: 
22:05-22:07
just

Oliver Chapman: 
22:07-22:11
the feel for the for the piece and i think that meant taking a lot of time

Oliver Chapman: 
22:11-22:16
in between making so maybe making intensely for like two or three weeks then not touching it for

Oliver Chapman: 
22:16-22:19
a month or two and because you kind of need to

Oliver Chapman: 
22:19-22:20
walk

Oliver Chapman: 
22:20-22:22
away from it because it it does end up just

Oliver Chapman: 
22:22-22:24
sounding like a soupy mesh

Oliver Chapman: 
22:24-22:26
after

Oliver Chapman: 
22:26-22:28
a while um from

Phoebe Eccles: 
22:28-22:29
my side it seemed like you were really collecting

Phoebe Eccles: 
22:30-22:34
sounds as well that you would be like oh i've just been throwing some chairs across the hall

Phoebe Eccles: 
22:34-22:39
and that is making quite an interesting noise so that's nice but it'd be like hmm can hear some

Phoebe Eccles: 
22:40-22:43
water that seems it will he'd be like I'm really into bells at the moment so

Phoebe Eccles: 
22:43-22:48
if I not only was just like going around like finding weird noises or making

Phoebe Eccles: 
22:48-22:53
weird noises and and that was kind of fun yeah I mean from my perspective

Oliver Chapman: 
22:53-22:53
I

Oliver Chapman: 
22:53-22:55
will say that I

Oliver Chapman: 
22:55-22:56
never

Oliver Chapman: 
22:56-22:59
really got too stuck like it always felt really fun and

Oliver Chapman: 
23:00-23:05
like I took breaks but I think I was so kind of enthusiastic about the whole

Oliver Chapman: 
23:05-23:08
thing and that it never felt like

Oliver Chapman: 
23:08-23:09
i

Oliver Chapman: 
23:09-23:13
hit a dead end which was a you know you don't always get

Oliver Chapman: 
23:13-23:14
that when you're making something so

Oliver Chapman: 
23:14-23:15
was

Oliver Chapman: 
23:15-23:18
there a lot that ended up on the cutting room floor or did

Oliver Chapman: 
23:18-23:20
you i'm tough tough to

Adam Cecil: 
23:20-23:23
judge because you're collecting so many sounds

Oliver Chapman: 
23:23-23:24
oh definitely i mean

Oliver Chapman: 
23:24-23:27
i think i ended up sampling about 50 hours worth of material like

Oliver Chapman: 
23:27-23:28
um

Oliver Chapman: 
23:28-23:30
and it and it's funny when

Oliver Chapman: 
23:30-23:32
you're when i was making stuff i was like oh i

Oliver Chapman: 
23:32-23:33
i

Oliver Chapman: 
23:33-23:35
would kind of recall sounds i'd recorded and be

Oliver Chapman: 
23:35-23:40
you know I was like oh I need that sound and I would just kind of recall this you

Oliver Chapman: 
23:42-23:45
know different samples and and be able to kind of pick it out but it it's kind

Oliver Chapman: 
23:45-23:50
of the kind of process that as you're making it things become clear to you but

Oliver Chapman: 
23:50-23:52
what often happened is when I

Oliver Chapman: 
23:52-23:53
when

Oliver Chapman: 
23:53-23:55
I was recording I might think I was I would

Oliver Chapman: 
23:55-23:59
often think oh this would be great in the composition and then when I got to

Oliver Chapman: 
23:59-24:03
it it didn't feel that great and then often the recordings I wasn't that

Oliver Chapman: 
24:03-24:07
enthused by there was just something about it that felt

Oliver Chapman: 
24:07-24:08
right

Oliver Chapman: 
24:08-24:08
in the

Oliver Chapman: 
24:09-24:14
composition and the the dog recordings with my family being a good example I I

Oliver Chapman: 
24:14-24:15
didn't really understand

Oliver Chapman: 
24:15-24:17
at

Oliver Chapman: 
24:17-24:19
the time that they would make interesting

Oliver Chapman: 
24:20-24:20
recordings

Oliver Chapman: 
24:20-24:22
so

Oliver Chapman: 
24:22-24:25
yeah I was often like listening back where you're like oh wow

Oliver Chapman: 
24:26-24:28
I didn't realize that that's what I was capturing and that was cool

Oliver Chapman: 
24:28-24:29
now

Oliver Chapman: 
24:29-24:30
that

Adam Cecil: 
24:30-24:30
dog

Adam Cecil: 
24:30-24:31
Doug FM is out there.

Adam Cecil: 
24:31-24:33
I mean, how are you feeling about

Adam Cecil: 
24:33-24:34
maybe

Adam Cecil: 
24:34-24:35
retrospectively the whole project

Adam Cecil: 
24:35-24:39
and also the way that people have responded to it so far?

Adam Cecil: 
24:40-24:42
Is there anything that surprised you about that?

24:42-24:43
I

Phoebe Eccles: 
24:43-24:46
think I'm surprised that the people have been listening to it.

Phoebe Eccles: 
24:47-24:49
I was saying to Oli.

Phoebe Eccles: 
24:50-24:51
Doug music is in.

Phoebe Eccles: 
24:51-24:53
I'm surprised that we're even doing this right now.

Phoebe Eccles: 
24:54-24:55
Yeah, it's quite a niche project.

Phoebe Eccles: 
24:57-24:58
I

Phoebe Eccles: 
24:58-24:59
was complaining to Oli.

Phoebe Eccles: 
24:59-25:02
I was like, when I write, no one reads my poetry pamphlet,

Phoebe Eccles: 
25:02-25:05
but with this, people are listening, and it's really nice, though, as well.

Phoebe Eccles: 
25:05-25:10
And I think our actual launch of it, because we did a launch,

Phoebe Eccles: 
25:10-25:14
and I think that we surprised ourselves, because it felt like such a show.

Phoebe Eccles: 
25:15-25:18
Well, Ollie did lights, and I read the poems live.

Oliver Chapman: 
25:19-25:19
I did a little dance.

Phoebe Eccles: 
25:20-25:24
Ollie did a dance wearing a dog mask, and there was a smoke machine.

Phoebe Eccles: 
25:24-25:28
So I think that felt like a real, it felt really like we'd

Phoebe Eccles: 
25:28-25:29
created

Phoebe Eccles: 
25:29-25:32
a show, but we hadn't rehearsed or anything.

Phoebe Eccles: 
25:32-25:39
But I don't know, I think that felt like a kind of exciting experience to, and also like to have everyone be listening to it all in the same room.

Oliver Chapman: 
25:40-25:42
I think I've realised like just how weird it is.

Oliver Chapman: 
25:43-25:48
Like, you know, you normalise something when you work on it for hours and months.

Oliver Chapman: 
25:50-25:54
But I think a lot of the response had been, you know, that it sounds kind of

Oliver Chapman: 
25:54-25:55
bizarre

Oliver Chapman: 
25:55-25:58
and otherworldly.

Oliver Chapman: 
25:58-26:03
And I think a review said cryptic, which I think are all fair

Oliver Chapman: 
26:03-26:04
descriptions.

Oliver Chapman: 
26:06-26:08
And yeah, it's a strange piece.

Oliver Chapman: 
26:09-26:09
Yeah.

Oliver Chapman: 
26:09-26:13
But it also makes sense that it's got enough to kind of

Oliver Chapman: 
26:13-26:14
connect

Oliver Chapman: 
26:14-26:19
with in a kind of more concrete way, like Phoebe's poems, the speech.

Oliver Chapman: 
26:20-26:25
also just like i kind of now kind of see it as a whole world that we've created especially when

Oliver Chapman: 
26:25-26:27
we listen to it really loud in a room with other people um

Oliver Chapman: 
26:27-26:29
i

Oliver Chapman: 
26:29-26:30
i guess yeah again i was like

Oliver Chapman: 
26:31-26:36
really focused on small details for so long of it that i didn't really see the whole um until we

Oliver Chapman: 
26:37-26:40
you know until we've had a bit of space from it and and that it's been out in the world and

Oliver Chapman: 
26:40-26:41
yeah

Oliver Chapman: 
26:41-26:41
it's been

Oliver Chapman: 
26:41-26:43
it's

Oliver Chapman: 
26:43-26:46
been an experience so i really thought we would just release it

Oliver Chapman: 
26:46-26:50
into a quiet corner of band camp and it would that would be that but

Oliver Chapman: 
26:50-26:52
yeah

Oliver Chapman: 
26:52-26:52
it's done better

Oliver Chapman: 
26:52-26:59
than expected which is nice i have one non dog fm related question for you guys uh what is your

Adam Cecil: 
27:00-27:04
ideal late night vibe whoa

Oliver Chapman: 
27:04-27:07
vibe late night you have to go

Phoebe Eccles: 
27:07-27:08
first with me

Phoebe Eccles: 
27:11-27:11
i'm

Phoebe Eccles: 
27:11-27:13
a morning person you're

Oliver Chapman: 
27:13-27:14
a morning person

27:18-27:19
I've

Phoebe Eccles: 
27:19-27:23
got early starts in my day job so I'll probably be off to bed after this but

Phoebe Eccles: 
27:25-27:25
I

Phoebe Eccles: 
27:25-27:28
like quite a late night where this is going to be a boring answer because it doesn't involve

Phoebe Eccles: 
27:29-27:35
a party or anything but there was one time in my life where I was getting lots of writing and

Phoebe Eccles: 
27:35-27:36
reading done

Phoebe Eccles: 
27:36-27:36
and

Phoebe Eccles: 
27:36-27:40
I was totally nocturnal but I think I was somewhere where I had no friends

Phoebe Eccles: 
27:40-27:42
I was like there's no reason to I can't remember

Phoebe Eccles: 
27:42-27:43
exactly

Phoebe Eccles: 
27:43-27:47
where but there was about two weeks where

Phoebe Eccles: 
27:47-27:48
I was not tired for a while and

Phoebe Eccles: 
27:48-27:50
it

Phoebe Eccles: 
27:50-27:52
was nice everything felt very um

Phoebe Eccles: 
27:52-27:54
emotional

Phoebe Eccles: 
27:54-27:55
so I think

Phoebe Eccles: 
27:55-27:57
my ideal late night will be

Phoebe Eccles: 
27:57-27:57
I'm

Phoebe Eccles: 
27:57-27:58
feeling a bit lonely

Phoebe Eccles: 
27:58-28:00
I've

Phoebe Eccles: 
28:00-28:02
just read like something really good

Phoebe Eccles: 
28:02-28:05
maybe I'm listening to some kind of

28:07-28:07
ballad

Oliver Chapman: 
28:09-28:10
you're at home

28:11-28:12
yeah

Phoebe Eccles: 
28:12-28:13
but maybe my head's out the window

Phoebe Eccles: 
28:15-28:15
sniffing in that

28:16-28:16
oh

Oliver Chapman: 
28:16-28:17
yeah yeah

Oliver Chapman: 
28:17-28:18
nice

28:18-28:19
new

Phoebe Eccles: 
28:19-28:19
moon

Oliver Chapman: 
28:20-28:22
well I was actually

Oliver Chapman: 
28:22-28:23
I've been thinking about new

Oliver Chapman: 
28:24-28:26
projects and one of the ideas I had

Oliver Chapman: 
28:26-28:27
was to start recording

Oliver Chapman: 
28:29-28:30
in the night time

Oliver Chapman: 
28:30-28:31
walking through London

Oliver Chapman: 
28:32-28:34
and I do like a late night walk

Oliver Chapman: 
28:35-28:37
especially through london you go to bed

Phoebe Eccles: 
28:37-28:39
quite late i also go to

Oliver Chapman: 
28:39-28:39
bed quite late

Oliver Chapman: 
28:39-28:40
about

Phoebe Eccles: 
28:40-28:41
in the night time

28:43-28:43
yeah

Oliver Chapman: 
28:43-28:47
i don't i mean i think i like the idea of myself walking around london at

Oliver Chapman: 
28:47-28:50
night i don't know how often i actually do it but that

Oliver Chapman: 
28:50-28:51
doesn't mean that's not my vibe

28:51-28:52
a

Phoebe Eccles: 
28:52-28:54
late night cycle late night cycle is

Oliver Chapman: 
28:54-28:55
good as well oh yeah night

Phoebe Eccles: 
28:55-28:56
cycle yeah

Oliver Chapman: 
28:56-28:58
we both we can agree on that yeah

Phoebe Eccles: 
28:58-29:01
zipping through those quiet roads yeah lovely

Phoebe Eccles: 
29:01-29:09
yeah especially now it's summer ish no gloves no hands yeah no hands no gloves

29:11-29:13
yeah that's it oh

Adam Cecil: 
29:13-29:17
i love that well that's perfect uh well thank you both for for coming on to the

Adam Cecil: 
29:17-29:24
podcast really appreciate it and uh where so obviously dog fm is on uh on bandcamp but where

Adam Cecil: 
29:24-29:28
can people find you keep up with you and and your future projects oh

Oliver Chapman: 
29:28-29:29
i've

Adam Cecil: 
29:29-29:30
got an instagram

Oliver Chapman: 
29:30-29:30
yeah

Phoebe Eccles: 
29:30-29:31
i'm

Phoebe Eccles: 
29:31-29:31
Instagram I

Oliver Chapman: 
29:31-29:34
guess typing our names on Instagram we hate

Phoebe Eccles: 
29:34-29:36
Instagram oh well I don't know about you

Oliver Chapman: 
29:37-29:37
sorry I

Phoebe Eccles: 
29:37-29:40
hate Instagram oh yeah Instagram I

Oliver Chapman: 
29:40-29:41
have I love Instagram

Oliver Chapman: 
29:44-29:45
I'm

Oliver Chapman: 
29:45-29:49
new to it I only got it last year so I'm using it like it's 2010 you're

Phoebe Eccles: 
29:49-29:50
fresh

Oliver Chapman: 
29:50-29:54
yeah I'm fresh uh so yeah follow me for fresh content

Phoebe Eccles: 
29:55-29:58
DM me

Phoebe Eccles: 
29:58-30:00
why

Phoebe Eccles: 
30:00-30:00
not

Phoebe Eccles: 
30:01-30:01
Uh...

30:33-30:34
Thank you,

Adam Cecil: 
30:34-30:38
Oliver and Phoebe, for joining me this evening on the Nightwater Podcast.

Adam Cecil: 
30:38-30:42
If you want to listen to Dog FM, the whole dang thing,

Adam Cecil: 
30:42-30:43
you

Adam Cecil: 
30:43-30:44
can find it on Bandcamp.

Adam Cecil: 
30:45-30:48
Just head to penultimatepress.bandcamp.com.

Adam Cecil: 
30:49-30:53
Also, I'll throw a link directly to Dog FM in the show notes as well.

Adam Cecil: 
30:53-30:57
It's also up on Apple Music and Spotify now.

Adam Cecil: 
30:57-31:01
Just search Dog FM on either one of those or check the show notes.

Adam Cecil: 
31:02-31:07
Also in the show notes, links to follow Oliver and Phoebe on Instagram.

Adam Cecil: 
31:07-31:11
Oliver is at Laguna Beach, but the third A is a four.

Adam Cecil: 
31:11-31:13
A little bit of a logic puzzle there.

Adam Cecil: 
31:13-31:14
See if you can figure it out.

Adam Cecil: 
31:14-31:18
And Phoebe is at Phoebe underscore X E C C S.

Adam Cecil: 
31:19-31:20
My name is Adam Cecil.

Adam Cecil: 
31:21-31:27
you can find me at fakeadamceasel on Blue Sky. I write Nightwater, a niche culture newsletter.

Adam Cecil: 
31:27-31:32
Maybe you've heard of it. You can find that at nightwater.email. Subscribe for free today or

Adam Cecil: 
31:32-31:37
become a paying Day Soda subscriber to help support me buying more great field recordings

Adam Cecil: 
31:37-31:43
over on Bandcamp. You can also find Nightwater on social media. It's on bluesky at nightwater.email,

Adam Cecil: 
31:43-31:49
very easy. And on Instagram slash threads, it's at nightwatermemes. Links to those in the show

Adam Cecil: 
31:49-31:55
notes along with everything else. Until next time, may your night water be cold and your newsletters

Adam Cecil: 
31:55-31:56
refreshing.