catherine olivier: I
think there's still way
too many SDR leaders out
there who are, like, very
proud. Like, oh my God,
my team sent 20,000
emails this week. It was
a great week. There you
go. Really, was it?
Though? What did you book
from that?
Mark Ackers: Former
senior director of Global
sales development at EDB,
VP of global sales
development at click, VP
global sales development
for talent, the
ambassador for SDR
leaders, EMEA, and now
they're the current VP of
global sales development
at cognism. Today's guest
is Catherine Olivier. A
Unknown: lot of people
don't realise how lonely
leadership can be. You
need to keep that
distance, and you need to
be able to step away and
not take it personally.
What are
Mark Ackers: they finding
hardest right now as
first time SDR managers,
you
catherine olivier: can't
manage every single
person the same way, even
if it's only seven
people, it's still very
necessary that you kind
of figure out what makes
your team tick on an
individual level.
Mark Ackers: How do you
go from being a friend to
a manager? If
catherine olivier: you're
being very close friends
with, like, one or two on
a team, you always have
the perception of
favouritism, I think
people don't realise how
tricky that is. When they
get into it, you can't
ease your way into it.
You have to set
expectations from day one
that they go, okay. Now
it's different. What's
Mark Ackers: one change
that you are seeing right
now that wasn't apparent
last year. It's
continuously
catherine olivier: changing.
So what worked last year,
last month might not
work. Now you think
you've cracked it, and
then everyone copies, and
then it stops working. If
you're an SDR who doesn't
manage to have well
researched and well
personalised messages,
you're doing something
wrong.
Mark Ackers: What do you
believe the ratio should
be of manager to rep?
Golden
catherine olivier: Rule,
never more than SDRs to
one manager. If you add
more, the cracks are
starting to show.
Mark Ackers: Hello and
welcome to another
episode of The I used to
be crap at sales podcast.
I'm your host, Mark
Akers, the co founder and
Head of Sales here at my
sales coach, we call the
podcast app because it's
true, and all of our
guests say the same, and
today I am joined by
someone with incredible
experience when it comes
to building leading, high
performing, winning sales
development teams.
Today's guest, if you
haven't guessed it
already, is Catherine
Olivier. Catherine, a big
welcome to the I used to
be crap at sales podcast.
How are you? Thanks very
much, Mark. I'm really
pleased to be here,
delighted to have you,
Catherine, obviously has
gone through your resume
there. I appreciate I
might have got that in
the slight wrong order.
That is an incredible
background, so well
experienced, as I say,
when it comes to building
leading, winning sales
development teams. But of
course, your journey
started somewhere. We
always kick up the
podcast off with a yes,
no question, Catherine,
did you used to be crap
at sales? Oh yes, when
you said yes, what part
of your career come
racing to the front of
your mind when you had
that light bulb moment
that perhaps you wasn't
as good as you may have
thought that you were, I
suppose I just
immediately go back to my
first days as an SDR,
right? And I can't age
myself too much, but that
is in the day of real
telephones, phone books
and excel sheets and
nothing else, and really
having no clue what to
do, how to approach it,
and just trying to shove
a solution down people's
throat no matter what,
was there a particular
moment when you just
thought something needs
to change, because what
I'm doing is not working,
yeah, for sure. I mean,
it's that point where you
don't hit quota right
where you go, Oh, my God.
So clearly I need to
change. The situation
that I was in was that it
was a group of all new
SDRs that all had never
done SDR role before. So
it's like the situation
where no one knows what
to do, and you don't have
a coach available to kind
of show you the row. So
it's just trial and error
and testing and testing
and testing and then
eventually figuring out
what works best. And how
did you figure out what
works best? Did someone
help you? Or was this all
on your own? No, no, I
did get some help
eventually from the AES
that were like, Oh my
gosh, our SDRs are
struggling. We better
give them a little bit of
help here, and then it's
starting to really break
down what we were trying
to do, which is like you
need to first build a
relationship, and you
first need to maybe start
with some information
gathering before you
assume that you know what
they want. And I think
that was that little
light bulb moment that
you go, Okay, it's not
just about trying to
push, push, push, but
it's more a game of give
and take, and there's no
wrong answer. I'm just
curious, what was the
reason it wasn't your
manager helping you? You
know, not thinking back,
it's a very long time
ago, I can genuinely not
remember whether I had a
manager or who it was,
which is kind of an idea
of how much I worked with
them and how much impact
they had, was it quite a
big team. Then that all
fell into one manager. I
think we had like 15
SDRs. I think at that
point we were just doing
the best we could. And
eventually more structure
came, and eventually
people started to join
who had more experience
and were taking everyone
under their wing. Do you
feel like you might have
lost people in the team
that could have gone on?
Be great, but because it
just took too long to get
the structure in place,
people quit the
profession. Possibly,
Unknown: possibly people
that thought they weren't
any good, but maybe with
the right type of
coaching, they could have
been better. Obviously,
you mentioned
Mark Ackers: 15 there,
jumping to where you are
today, and then we'll
come straight back. But
you obviously know what
it looks like,
structurally to have a
great sales development
team. What do you believe
the ratio should be of
manager to rep? Golden
Rule, never more than
seven. SDRs to one.
Manager. Tell me why it's
seven. It's not five,
it's not 10. That's a
hard one.
catherine olivier: Probably
just experience. I've
seen it. I've seen it
work kind of up to seven,
and if you add more, the
cracks are starting to
show where there's just
not enough time in a week
to to deal with anyone,
everyone sufficiently.
Five, great. I mean, I'd
have a one to one ratio
if you could have it, but
that's just not
realistic, right? So I
think currently I've got
a team of five with a
manager, six over the
manager and a few of
seven with a manager. You
do what you can and the
fewer the better. But
don't try to go over
seven. Is what my advice
always is,
Mark Ackers: sounds good.
So just recap for us.
Then, what is the
structure of your team
look like today? I have
catherine olivier: a team
in America with a
manager, a team in
Germany with a manager,
team in France with a
manager, and I've got
three teams in the UK,
like call them an SMB
team, a mid market team
and an enterprise team,
and each of those with a
manager,
Mark Ackers: you must be
incredibly busy. We'll
get to your time and
cognism And that's where
we're spend most of the
episode. But I suppose
before then, one of the
questions I like to ask
guests as well is, when
you look back at your
career, everyone's made a
big, big mistake in
sales, something where
they've maybe lost a
deal, so it's gone
completely wrong. It's a
funny lesson that they
can look back on. Now,
what would you say when
you reflect back is
probably one of the
biggest mistakes you've
made in sales?
catherine olivier: Oh,
I've made so many
over the over the years,
but I think, personally,
it's been thinking that I
can do everything. So
I've had teams where I
had not only the sales
development team, but I
also had an inside sales
team, and I had a
customer success team,
and everything rolled up
to me, and it's three
exceptionally different
motions, right? With
different skill sets,
different people,
different targets,
different everything. And
at that point in my
career, maybe it's
different now, but at
that point, there was no
way I could do all of
that successfully in one
go. So what happened,
like what broke to make
you realise you can't do
anything. Well, it's the
shifting in between
motions, right? Like the
SDR team. You have to
support them in, like the
lead conversions, the
outbounding and all of
that. But then you have
to also work with the
inside sales team that
has quotas of closing
things, and they need
support with like pricing
and demos and all of
those kind of things, and
then you have the
customers that are trying
to, like, either renew or
they're trying to expand,
and that's a whole other
host of discussions and
issues that come up with
with that. And that is
just a lot, if it all
flows into one person.
Oh, absolutely, like too
many plays to spin with
someone with such a
background in sales
development, I'm curious
what made you fall in
love with sales
development, of all the
different aspects of
sales, what was it that
made you fall in love
with this part of the
role? I think there's a
few things. One is that
it's continuously
changing. So what worked
last year, last month,
might not work. Now
there's new tools,
there's new tactics, new
strategies, every single
time, and you think
you've cracked it, and
then everyone copies. And
then it stops working.
You have to start all
over again. So I think
that staying on top of
things, staying relevant,
staying modern, I would
almost call it right, not
not being stuck in in the
past with what used to
work for you. I really do
like that, right? So, so
that's definitely a thing
that I that I enjoy about
it. Another thing that's
very, very important is
obviously the SDRs being
that career building
team, right with the
youngsters very often
that are in the beginning
of their sales career and
are trying to figure out
what, what is next for
them, and then kind of
guiding them towards
that. Like almost every
single SDR that's
interviewed usually goes,
oh, I want to be, be an
AE next. That's what I'm
going to be. And then,
fine, I don't say much.
And then they get
started, and then they
figure out, wait,
actually, I'm really good
at something completely
different, and I'm going
to go in this different
direction. And like being
part of that journey, and
kind of like being there
to support and mentor
them where we can is, I
think, a really, really
important and fun bit of
being an STR leader.
Well, I love the you
know, very clear. You got
a passion for it. Let's
talk about some of the
changes that you have
seen. You know, I
appreciate you said
yourself. You don't know
age yourself with some of
your answers, but some of
your answers are, are
indicating you've got
vast experience here,
right? You've done this
role for a long time. You
talk about what worked
last year isn't working
this year. What's one
change that you are
seeing right now that
was, uh, wasn't apparent
last year? Well, whether
it's last year or a
little bit longer ago.
I think there's been a
massive shift of quality,
of quantity. So
definitely the shift from
just blasting and just
putting more and more and
more activities in
knowing that at some
point things will be
okay. Now you really need
to be a lot more
researched, considered
personalised, etc, at
least in organisations
that I've been, that I've
been at, so that's a big
shift, and there's just a
lot more tools these days
to help SDRs with doing
that right. So I think
expectations have gone up
that if you're an SDR who
doesn't manage to have
well researched and well
written and well,
personalised messages
you're doing something
wrong, because everything
is there to help you do
it. And a year ago, I
don't think a lot of that
was available yet. So
people were like, No,
it's fine. Like, he
couldn't help it, you
know what I mean? And now
it's like, no, no, no,
no. You should exactly
know how to how to do
this now. And you
Mark Ackers: mentioned
tech stack. So I want to
ask you what a key piece
of technology is that you
use today that perhaps
you didn't use a couple
of years ago? And the
answer, of course, cannot
be cognizant. But I'll do
that for you at my sales
coach. We're we're
customers of cognizant.
And Cognizant is a
customer and my sales
coach, of course, but
yeah, Cognizant is an
amazing tool. I know we'd
be lost without it. But
without saying, cognism,
what is one piece in your
tech stack that you
didn't have a couple of
years ago that you just
couldn't live without now
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catherine olivier: So
I'll break that answer up
in two. I think, like,
couple of years ago,
like, long time ago, we
didn't have things like
outreach and SalesLoft,
so having that has made
an incredible impact to
how SDRs go about their
day to day, right? So I
think that's been, that's
been one massive shift
that I've seen over the
years. But again, that
ages me massively,
because that's been
around for a while. And I
think tools like Gong,
right? Recording,
insights, training and
coaching on on calls,
etc, made a massive
impact as well, and
that's not been around
for too long either. It
feels like it's been
around forever, but it
really hasn't. Yes,
Mark Ackers: I mean,
there I'd say, like table
stakes. Now aren't they
having having a tool
like, like Gong,
conversation
intelligence, obviously,
Jiminy here as a UK
version of that as well.
And then, like say,
sales, loft, outreach.
I've bought outreach
before and been in that
process. Do you have a
preference out of sales?
Often outreach? Ah,
catherine olivier: funny
that you ask. Everyone
always asks me I started
the first one I got used
to was sales loft. Then
when I changed
organisations, they had
outreach, weren't happy,
and then we moved to
sales loft, so that was
an interesting one, and
in other organisations,
so the last one, and now
with Cognizant, we have
outreach. And I think, to
be fair, both are good,
both do a similar thing.
So I might have like a
personal preference, but
it's not necessarily
based on how well they
work, fair enough.
Mark Ackers: I'll let you
stay on the fence of that
one slightly let's talk
about landing the role at
cognism. Huge shoes to
fill, in the sense of
David Bentham. Had that
role, very well known in
the industry, been with
cognism a long time? Take
me back to first of all,
how did that opportunity
come about? Did you apply
for it, or were you
approached? Funnily
catherine olivier: enough,
both. Okay. So obviously
I'd known Dave and been
following him, and like
following cognism as
well, so, and I'd been a
Cognizant customer for
quite a while. So it's
also like, Okay, I know
about it, and I love the
I love the company and
the product. So obviously
you then see, hey,
something comes up at
cognism, and they go,
Wow, okay, this is kind
of perfect, because it's
a role that suits me to
the T and it's a company
that I'm genuinely
passionate about, so I
would love to work there.
So I applied immediately,
and then adhere anything
for a while. I think they
were kind of overwhelmed
with the number of
applications that came
their way. So I did what
I think everybody should
be doing when you're
applying for any type of
role, whether it's SDRs
or anything in
leadership, you start
reaching out to the
people in a company,
right? So reaching out to
the hiring team, people
in HR, people in sales,
people on the SDR team,
to just understand what
was going on, what were
their needs. How would
that fit me? And if
there's anything
specifically that I could
bring up then in
interviews. And then,
funnily enough, Dale
Thorne, who is one of the
founders of SDR leaders
of the USA, who's a dear
friend of mine, he spoke
to Cognizant CRO at one
point, and he was like,
oh, have you spoken to
her yet about the role?
And I think the answer
was no. The application
got lost somewhere in the
in the heaps of other
ones, right? But then he
he dug it out, and he
reached out and he said,
Actually, I've, I've had
a look, and I think it
would be a very good idea
if we have a
Mark Ackers: chat. A few
things there. One, using
your network, really
smart move. Two, I agree,
treating the role like
you would a sales
opportunity, working it
multi threading. How did
you reach out to those
people? Was that email?
Was that phone call? A
mix? What were you doing?
A mix of phone and
LinkedIn, and then, what
did the interview process
look like? This is a type
of interview that many
people might not have
gone for, an incredibly
senior position a massive
organisation responsible
for a large team. What
did that interview
process look like, start
to finish?
catherine olivier: So
mine was a little bit
lopsided, because I
started with the CRO who
would have, would
probably have been the
last one, right? So that
was, that was an
interesting one. So had a
chat with him, spoke,
obviously, to the to the
recruitment team. So had
a, had a lot of sessions
with James Corfield, who
is our head of the TA
team, and he's been
great. So answering all
the questions as to,
like, why is this role
even here? Like, why did
they leave? And
understanding a little
bit better about about
the expectations. And it
was with God I've got to
think back. Like, like, a
workshopping session
with, like, some heads of
sales. So I sat down with
with John islet, for
instance, right the head
of our sales
organisation. I do know
that the very last one
was a an hour with the
CEO to again talk about
that. So I I've had
different experiences in
going for these type of
roles and having
interviews, having to do
your 3060, 90
presentation, I've had to
present a five year plan
before where they asked
me for a five year plan
that I had to present,
etc. That wasn't the case
here. It was very, I
would almost say
conversational and
strategic, and really
seeing whether my views
and my way of working,
etc, aligns with what
they needed. How
Mark Ackers: helpful do
you think was the
recommendation from your
friend straight to the
CRO in terms of taking
your interview to more of
a place of look, we trust
that you're a good
candidate. Let's talk
strategy, versus dropping
you in at the very
beginning of the
interview process. I
catherine olivier: think
it was hugely important.
Mark Ackers: Here's the
thing. I know you're
going to say that, and as
did everyone that's
listening, and it's the
same in sales, getting
that referral into a
decision maker is just a
game changer. But I know
you would have seen this
to say, I appreciate you
manage SDRs versus AES
and quota carry, but
you'll still see this.
Oh, we go after referrals
a lot. Oh, well, perfect,
right? But what I see all
the time from from
sausage, they don't ask
for referrals. Like, it's
just something that
inherently, they don't do
as often as they should
when it absolutely works
like, you know, as a
great example there you
mentioned, obviously, and
you have, like, when we
went for your resume, it
had a number of these
roles when you are
interviewing, how do you
prepare for for an
interview like that?
What? What do you want to
show in those interviews?
I
catherine olivier: think,
start at the basics and
really research the
company itself. I think
is important. But then I
usually try to talk to
various people on
different teams to kind
of prepare as well, like,
what's what's been going
well, what's not? What
are the main discussion
points and talking points
so to say within the
organisation, and I'm
trying to link that back
to things I've seen and
done before, and how I've
solved that, or how I see
that you could approach
it, because I'm very much
a believer in I don't
want to pretend to be
something that I'm not,
or pretend that I know
things that I actually
don't, is kind of a take
it or leave it approach.
This is me. This is how I
work. This is how I look
at things. This is how I
would challenge things.
And if that's the way you
think you would like your
organisation to be run,
then I think this is a
match. If you would like
it to be completely
different, then I would
need to go against
everything I stand for.
And then I rather not
talking about
Mark Ackers: the first
few weeks in that role.
Then, as I say, I'm
really keen to understand
the mindset, right? I
know you're really strong
leader. I've spent time
with you equally. I know
what it can feel like to
fill shoes from someone
else. How do you approach
those first few weeks and
those first few
conversations? I'm the
new boss. How do you
approach those
situations? Very
catherine olivier: carefully,
but I've been very, very
lucky with incognizance,
because my boss, the CRO
Rob tomcek, he gave me
time. So instead of
giving me the team from
day one, having seven
people reporting to me,
the whole organisation
sit under me, he gave me
a quarter or longer, if I
wanted to, to just
understand the business.
So they kept. Running the
way they were running.
They didn't change a
thing. And I was just
there observing, talking
to people, interviewing,
participating in
meetings, and just taking
notes and making a plan
at that point. Rather
than just coming in from
day one going, Hello,
we're going to do
everything different. I
was very, very fortunate
to be given the chance to
just take the time to
understand the business
better before having to
make any decisive calls.
Mark Ackers: I love that.
I mean, to give you a
quarter just feels like a
really well thought out
process from cognism and
the right way to do
things. One of the
questions I'll have for
you and everyone has
impostor syndrome at
certain points in their
career and in day to day
life. No doubt, even
though you are well
qualified and exceptional
candidate to hire into
this role, they would
have been part of you
that had that level of
imposter syndrome, new
role, new gig, as I say,
taking over. How did you
manage that imposter
syndrome that you may
have had taken the role I
have
catherine olivier: it
every day, to be fair. So
that doesn't really ever
go away. I don't think,
at least, not for not for
me, but I think it's just
about trusting your skill
set and going, Look, I
also have to trust the
people that hire me that
they know what they're
doing, and they wouldn't
give me the role if they
didn't see something in
me, right? So, and that's
kind of where I'm getting
back to, like, I'm not
pretending anything that
I'm not so I don't have
to be fearful about,
like, keeping up a
pretence or anything like
that, as I as I go about
my my day to day, just
like I've told them
exactly what I know. I've
told them how I want to
approach it. And they
saw, yeah, this is a good
idea. So now that's what
I'm going to be doing. So
kind of read by staying
really, really close to
myself, I think it's the
way to, like, try to
minimise that imposter
that imposter syndrome.
But generally, it doesn't
ever really go away.
Mark Ackers: I agree
everyone I speak to. And
when this comes up about
imposter syndrome,
everyone has it. And as
you say, near enough, if
not every day is near
enough. Every day when
you're having those
moments of imposter
syndrome, how do you deal
with it? Do you deal with
it in your head and by
yourself? Or do you speak
to anyone
catherine olivier: most
of the time? It's, like,
fleeting and I can deal
with it in my head for by
very rationally going,
No, come on. I can do
this. I've done this
before. If it gets worse,
and specifically, like,
around the times that
you're, like,
interviewing for new
roles, or there's like,
massive changes happening
in organisations that,
you know, oh, my
goodness, Am I doing the
right thing here? I'm
very lucky that my
husband's super
supportive. So he'll,
he'll listen, and then
he'll go and be the voice
of reason, going like,
come on. You've been
doing this for ages. You
can do this. This is
fine. And something else
that's been super, super
helpful has been like a
community, like the sales
leaders of EMEA, where
there's other SDR leaders
in similar situations,
and I can just call them
up and go, am I crazy?
I'm trying to do this,
like, is it just me? And
then you can have that,
you can have that
conversation. So that's
been really super over
the past few years as
well,
Mark Ackers: amazing. And
one of the things that I
know you now get because
we've started working
together with my sales
coach. Is access to a
coach here, one to one
coaching. But I'm
curious, throughout your
career, have you ever had
a coach or a mentor that
you work with?
catherine olivier: I've
had a coach once before.
They let me think back.
So that was when I was at
EDB. They gave like a
certain level of
leadership, leadership
coaching. So we all got
group sessions, and then
some one on one sessions
with our personal coach.
And that was very
helpful, but it was very
much focused on how to
become a better leader as
such. And it wasn't
necessarily, well, it
sounds relevant, like
very personal on like the
How to Become a Better
you kind of thing.
Mark Ackers: What about
though, throughout your
career? Have you had
someone that you've been
able to lean on, maybe,
maybe less formal than a
coach and a coach
relationship, but someone
that's kind of taken you
under their wing and
helped you? There's been
catherine olivier: various
people, I think, over the
years, where some helped
more than others, some
helped very consciously,
and others maybe more by
accident. But you learn
from people that you work
with. Someone who always
comes back in in mind is
a lady called Paige
powers. I was back when I
worked at Extreme
Networks as a just an SDR
manager, and later the
leader of their inside
sales team and their SDR
team. And she was head of
Global inside sales, and
it was the first how to
call it, like powerful
woman, female leader that
I ever encountered,
because, like, tech
sales, it's a lot of
guys, right? So all the
like, there's girl SDRs,
but I hadn't necessarily
worked for a female boss
before, and that was a
revelation at that point
in my career, in any
case, and she taught me
things like, maybe
consciously or
subconsciously, from her
end, about like being
just yourself, and not
being afraid to just be a
woman, even though
everyone else is not, and
just making kind of that
your strength, rather
than trying to pretend
you're all masculine and
one of the guys and stuff
like that. And I think
that was super, super
valuable. That point,
Mark Ackers: Paige
powers. What an
incredible name. That
sounds like a superhero
name, right? So tell me a
bit more about Paige
powers, then it feels
like she was important
person in the development
of you. You've shared
there that she encouraged
you to be who you are.
And I've really picked
that up in the interview
that one you're not
afraid to say, look, this
is who I am. These are my
strengths. These are my
weaknesses or blind
spots. And you'll say
that even at the risk of
someone saying, Well,
maybe you're not right
for the job then. And
that comes down to my
second thing that I've
noticed is you're really
not attached to the
outcome. The outcome will
be what the outcome is. I
know who I am and what I
can do, and it feels like
perhaps you first learned
that from from Paige.
Would that be fair?
catherine olivier: Yeah,
I think that's where it
started Exactly. So do
what you think is right
and make people
understand why you're
doing what you're doing.
Go to Bat for your team,
right? Like, she always
threw herself up as, I
think she called herself
a mama bear or something
like that, where she was
like, I protect my team
and try to protect them
at all costs, and that's
her job, and they don't
need to worry about
everything. And I really,
really liked that in her
approach of things,
right, trying to shield
the team. And she was
always very personally
involved on a personal
level, you know what I
mean? Like, genuinely
trying to get to know
people, and don't be
like, Oh, I'm I'm the big
boss, and, you know, I
don't care about all
those minions under me,
very, very personally
involved. And not a
weaker leader for it,
right? I think even a
stronger one, because
people would run through
fire for her. You know
what I mean, it's like,
because of that kind of
relationship, and I think
that kind of opened my
eyes, like, that's how I
would like to be when I
grow up, right? Still not
there, but it's something
to something to strive
for.
Mark Ackers: When you say
you're still not there,
would you say that it's
just you being humble and
a little bit of imposter
syndrome? Or are there
things that you genuinely
think you need to work
Unknown: on? No, I always
have to work on things,
right? Absolutely. What's
one thing that
Mark Ackers: you would
like to to improve on?
catherine olivier: That's
a tricky one, but I think
I'm very aware of the
fact that I sometimes get
really stuck in my ways,
like, Oh, I think this is
the solution, and then
I'll keep working on it
like forever, even if
it's not going anywhere.
And I need to be able to
kind of what you were
saying, like, detach from
the outcome and, like,
take a step back. Like, I
know this is what I have
been working on for a
very long time, but it's
time to let it go. It's
not going to go anywhere
and start over or try
something different. And
I think that moment of
letting go, I I'm still a
bit on the late side with
that sometimes, what's
Mark Ackers: the last
thing that you let go of?
Because it just wasn't
working. As
catherine olivier: the
comp plan changes, right?
Like, I know something
needs to change, and I
want to change it, but
eventually just need to
go away pause, you know,
like, wait a little bit
and regroup, talk to more
people and then try
again. When you say talk
to more people. Who do
you mean, generally,
within my organisation,
so the people that are
going to be either
impacted by it, or the
people that have a very
better, much better
understanding of the
impacts and the numbers
behind it, etc. So I have
a very close relationship
with Rev ops and and
stuff like that. So I
think that's an important
one. But I also run like
ideas past other SDR
leaders, like, oh, I
would love to go, and I
don't know, pay on this,
and then they go, oof.
I'll never do that
because I tried it and
didn't work, right? So
it's really nice to have
other people that you can
just ask, ask things. But
on the other hand, you
need to keep in mind that
they don't know your
organisation and your
team, that the way that I
do and their views might
be skewed based on like,
their circumstances. So
it's like nice to have
like a sounding board and
to kind of get maybe some
fresh ideas, etc, but
then you do have to make
sure you can apply it
properly in your own
organisation. And that's
what I need, like the
various bits of my team
for and I think
Mark Ackers: that's an
important thing, you
know, when you can lean
on other people and ask
what's working for you
and and sort of take, but
take back the bits that
you think you can apply,
and maybe not the bits
that wouldn't work. But I
love that you've got
other people you can
reach out to. And again,
it just comes back to
you're not afraid to say,
look, I don't think I've
got all the answers here.
Can somebody help? And
even internally, where
sometimes people might
not want to do that, they
might not want to look
weak internally. They
might want to look like
they haven't got the
answer internally, but
you're just look, this is
my strength, this bit I
need some help with, and
you're not afraid to do
that. And I really admire
that. I kind
catherine olivier: of
have the same approach to
my my team and to my CRS,
right? Because I tell
them, Look, I can sit on
my little perch and,
like, make plans for you,
and like, make rules, but
you guys are doing it on
a day to day. I don't
know how it impacts you,
genuinely, hour to hour,
right? So if there's
anything that you need or
that I'm trying to put in
place that you feel will
not work, let me know. If
you have suggestions. Let
me know. Right? It's been
a very long time since
I've been an SDR like on
a day to day. Basis, and
even though I think I
have a fairly good
understanding of how it's
all going every single
day, I might not have the
right insights in the
intricacies. So to say
right so I always say,
Look, I don't know
everything. So if you're
feeling I'm missing
something or I need to
look into things, please
flag it. I love that
Mark Ackers: as a sign of
a great leader, you know,
really embraces that
feedback, of that that
circle of feedback and
that feedback loop from
their team. It may be 10
years time, maybe five
years time, someone in
your team is going to be
on a podcast, and they're
going to be talking about
their own page powers,
and that's going to be
you, because you're,
you're leading the SDR
managers at cognism, many
of whom are first time
SDR managers themselves.
What are they finding
hardest right now as
first time SDR managers?
Oh,
catherine olivier: good
one. I think one of the
things that is always
hard when you're first
time SDR manager is that
you can't manage every
single person the same
way, because people are
very different. They
respond to different
things. Call them
triggers, or, you know,
it's the stick, carrot,
kind of discussion like,
people have different
ambitions, different
things that drive them.
So you can't just blanket
your approach to your
team, even if it's only
seven people, right, it's
still very necessary that
you kind of figure out
what makes your team tick
on an individual level,
and then kind of adjust
your approach for that.
And I think that's hard,
because when you've been
in SDR, your manager
managed you a certain
way, and you might assume
that that's how they
managed everybody, and
that's therefore the way
that everybody needs to
be managed going forward,
and it's again like that,
disconnecting from, wait
a second, I can do things
differently because this
person needs different
inputs, different
outputs, different
approaches. And that's
fine. That's okay, but
coming to that
conclusion, and then I
think effectively
implementing that is
always a learning path. I
think what
Mark Ackers: you said
there, whilst it was so
obvious, is also a light
bulb moment, in the sense
of you're totally right.
If you're managed by
someone, you will just
assume that's how they
manage everybody, because
you don't know what you
don't know. And I think,
like I say, it's an
obvious thing to say, but
until you really say that
out loud, when you step
up into management, you
almost have this warped
reality of, well, this is
how I was managed. That's
obviously how they
managed everybody. And it
can be hard to not fall
into that trap. As I say,
really obvious thing, but
a real light bulb moment,
I think, for many people
to when they're thinking
about stepping up into
management, to consider
how are other people
managed? And I think one
of the mistakes that many
people share with me, and
I think you'll probably
say you've made this
mistake yourself at some
point, I know I have, is
that that's why it's easy
to try and hire people
like you hire a team of
mini use because you can
manage them in the same
way. Why is that the
wrong thing to do?
Because
catherine olivier: you
should never have a team
of all the same people,
because then you'll never
get any fresh ideas,
fresh approaches,
different views, etc. You
need it specifically,
because what I said,
Right? SDR, world keeps
changing, and you need to
keep innovating and being
creative, etc. And every
if every person thinks
exactly the same way,
you're gonna get down
through a very, very
narrow path. How
Mark Ackers: do you
ensure then that when
you're hiring people,
that you are hiring
people that are just very
different to you? Have
you got a way of doing
that, yes
catherine olivier: and
no, like in the way that
when we're going through
a hiring process, we're
looking for skills first
and foremost, right?
We're not gonna go like,
Oh, we need to have
someone who was x, not.
Okay, so we're going for
skills and experience.
However, you eventually
end up with a pool of, I
don't know, say, 10. Then
you have two roles, and
you go, like, how we're
going to do this? And
then it's very much about
like, who's slightly
different, who's
exciting, who has that
extra gene, Sequoia,
right? That you go, Okay,
this is not something
we've seen before this.
This would be like an
interesting addition. I
mean, we know what's
what's successful when
you're looking at SDRs,
like people have who have
played, like, competitive
sports or anything like,
like those things. Yes,
great. SDRs, absolutely.
But I don't want the full
SDR team that were all
former competitive
sportsmen, right? That
that's another like
extreme on that, on that
end. So it's nice to kind
of mix that up a little.
So I trust my team to go
through the first cycles
of the hiring process
themselves and then
present me with their top
got it top five, or
something like that. I
always do the final
round, and then I pick
and make a case, right?
I'm not the final
decision maker on that
and as such, but I try to
explain to to the team
like, who I think would
be a valuable addition
based on maybe those
softer type of criteria.
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can make or break the
success in in the
interview, not
catherine olivier: really
genuinely. I'm trying to
think my starting
question is always
really, really simple,
because I found people
are for one reason, or
they're very nervous when
they get to talk to me,
so I need to, kind of,
like, ease them into it,
right? And my first
question is like, why did
you apply like, and then
they do have to put it
all on the table. And I
think some people go,
Well, I just needed a
job. And then it's like,
no, bye. But it's the
ones that that come with,
like, a well thought out
answer, which I would
like to think they'd have
after they've gone
through like two other or
three other rounds by
then, right? They should
have an answer that kind
of summarises everything
they've learned about
themselves and about us
in the roles before, in
the rounds before
Mark Ackers: I just did
the job, is an
incredulous answer to be
giving at that stage of
an interview. One of the
challenges that that we
have in sales is that
first time managers are
almost always former
great reps that have been
promoted, like top
performers, that get
promoted and for logical
reasons, in many ways.
You know, we don't want
to lose them. We want to
retain them. They're
ambitious. Hence, they've
been top performers. But
being a top performer
doesn't mean you're going
to be a great manager to
start with. Now we could
talk about that, but
here's the other
challenge that I think
rarely get spoken about,
and I've struggled with
this as as many, many
other people that have
had a first time manager
role. How do you go from
being a friend to a
manager that's
catherine olivier: so
hard, it is so hard, I
think people don't
realise how tricky that
is when they get into it.
It's a reason that you
have to be very, very
careful who you pick to
promote into a leadership
position if they were
very much part of the SDR
click, so to say, right
before, and that's why
very often, I would very
much gravitate to those
people that are already
almost naturally just
mentoring and Helping the
rest of their team
already rather than maybe
being the the a list
superstar 100 or 50 plus
percent. SDR, those are
not necessarily always
the ones that are the
most helpful, because
they're very much focused
on their own success,
right, and doing the
right thing. And fair
enough, right? That's
okay, but it's those ones
that are doing well, but
are then also taking time
out to sit down with the
others, or, like, sharing
their their experiences,
or their their tips and
tricks, etc. I think that
is way more valuable when
you're, like, deciding
who to like, promote
into, like, a leadership
role. When they are
interviewing for that,
it's like very much. Do
you realise what this
means? Right? Because
it's going to be hard,
and you'll have to do
that from the beginning.
You can't ease your way
into it. You can't go,
Oh, my first month of
being the manager, I'm
still very much your
friend. But then I need
to start becoming a
little bit more harsh on
you the month after, and
then the month after
that, I'm really gonna,
like, crack down on
things. Doesn't work. You
have to set expectations
from day one that they
go, Okay, now it's
different, and it doesn't
mean we can't go out and
have a drink after work
again, but it is going to
just be slightly more
distant, I think. And I
think a lot of people
don't realise how lonely
leadership can be, right?
Because there's fewer and
fewer of you, the higher
up you go. It's very much
like the team versus the
managers, sometimes,
right, depending on what
the circumstances are.
And then you need to keep
that distance, and you
need to be able to, like,
step away and not take it
personally and just go
like they're doing their
thing, and I have to do
mine. And it is not
always what you might
want to do, but that is
the maturity I think SDR
leaders need to have if
you want to be successful
manager your former
peers, rather than
Mark Ackers: make it just
about cognizant, because
then you might be talking
about people that work
there today. If you look
back across all the
people that you've
managed across your
career, what are some of
the mistakes you've seen
people make, where
they've stepped into a
manager role and they've
got that wrong, they've
acted like a friend and
not a manager. Have you
got some some maybe some
funny stories or some
observations that you can
share,
catherine olivier: don't
date them? That's That's
step one. That's a given,
though I think it is
where, when an SDR has
like to put it like in a
generator. Generalisation
has like a grievance, and
they go, Oh, this isn't
right, and I feel hard
done by and it's unfair.
And then instinctively,
immediately the manager
going, Yeah, you're
right. Like, absolutely,
I feel Yeah, right,
because they were an SDR
before, and they know the
pain. They feel it. They
know they understand it
without taking a beat and
having a moment ago. Wait
a second, but what of
like the view of the
company and of the wider
team, and actually the
overarching rules, and
without immediately
agreeing to whatever the
SDR is feeling and like
kind of making it a
bigger thing, just going
like, I'll look into it.
Let's look at this. Let's
take a step back. And I
need to explain to you
why. Yeah, it might suck
as an SDR, but from a
team perspective, it is
the right thing to do.
I'll
Mark Ackers: avoid the
can of worms around don't
date them. Because, yeah,
I could imagine there's
some funny stories there.
But are there any other
stories of where they've
just got that line wrong?
Because that could be
quite humorous.
catherine olivier: I
think it is about
specifically after work,
getting too close. So not
the dating part, but just
the like being, being
very, very close friends.
If you're being very
close friends with, like,
one or two on a team, and
your team is bigger than
that, you'll always have
the perception of
favouritism, right? Like,
Oh yeah, but you'll do
that because you tennis
with each other, or
because you, you know
what I mean, like, there,
there's always that kind
of thing, even though it
might not even be the
case, right? But I think
being very aware of,
like, the perception of,
yeah, putting the one SDR
above the others because
you happen to get on a
lot better is a very
scary thing to have.
Mark Ackers: So that's
really interesting,
right? That that
perception of favouritism
socialising, one of the
things that I've always
seen people struggle with
is is socials after work?
What do you think a
manager should do? Should
they because there's
options, right? They
don't go at all. They
never go, or they go but
they leave early, or they
go and they're the last
ones there because they
want to stay out late.
What? How do you get
those situations right? I
think
catherine olivier: it
does depend on your
personality and so on. I
would never necessarily
tell an STR manager, oh,
you're not allowed to
stay until the end,
right? Because if they're
the type of person that
really enjoys that, then
who am I to tell them?
No, they should stay very
sober. So I think, I
think you need to keep
your wits about you,
because you need to make
sure that you keep that
professional relationship
right. Okay, so it's,
it's very much like you
can be there and you can
have a good time, but you
need to make sure that
you don't say the wrong
things, that you don't
start blabbing about
things they have no
concern about, and that
you're not that person
that everyone then is
talking about because you
were, I don't know,
dancing on the table or
fell off the bar or
anything like that,
right? Because, again,
you have to maintain that
sense of professionalism
and and so on. And I
think as a leader, that's
something you have to
make sure, like, I don't
care how you maintain
that if it means you
don't drink at all, or if
you have to leave early
because, you know, you
can't contain yourself,
you know, that's fine,
and that's a goal you'll
have to make yourself.
Mark Ackers: I think that
could be the hard thing.
You know, well, just last
week, I was an SDR, I was
their friend, and now a
week later, it's
someone's birthday or
someone's leaving do, oh,
I've got to be completely
different. And, yeah, I
mean, I'm sure we can
exchange many a story.
There people on the
tables of one of the
bars. Let's, um, let's
talk about how you're
managing in a hybrid
world. So, yeah, I was in
your offices a couple
weeks ago. We sat down,
and we're talking about,
you know, our coaching of
your SDR managers. And,
you know, I asked you
about your commute to
work, and what was it
again? Was it? Was it
three hours? No, no, it's
just over two. I mean,
that's still horrendous.
So a two hour commute
each way, and you know,
you're, you're a mother,
you've got a young boy,
haven't you? And I asked,
well, how often do that?
You said, two days a
week. And I'm curious
how, and I know you'll
have a great answer for
this, but that's, that's
the new norm, right? We
live in that world where,
if we want to attract the
best talent, which
obviously cognizant. Do
you embrace that? And
that's what your one you
know, you live two hours
away. Why would you want
to do that every day,
four hours lost when, as
I say, you've got a
family. How do you in a
remote world, stay close
to your team? I
catherine olivier: think
it's I've grown used to
it a little bit in the
sense that I've had fully
remote teams before. I
also managed all the way
through COVID. So that's
that's helping with the
experience as well, as
you can imagine. But I
think the main thing is
just managing
expectations, right? So
when it comes to like,
how often I go to the
office, I was very clear
whilst interviewing,
like, there's no way I
can do this five days a
week. It's just not
happening. If that's what
you want, then that's not
me, right? Just from a
practical perspective. I
love being in the office,
by the way. I love being
around people and just
being able to walk over
and just having a chat,
etc. But yeah, at the
moment, that's just
logistically not
possible. So what I do
make sure of is that the
time that I am there, I'm
like, available. So. So I
tend to make sure I block
out time that I'm not in
meetings and I'm just
there, because what's the
point of me coming in and
then going, Oh, I've got
back to back meetings for
five hours. I'm going to
sit in this meeting room
and I'll come out when
I'm done right then
there's genuinely no
difference for me just
being at home or being in
a meeting room in the
office, trying to make
sure that I block my day
so that I either have,
like, the one on ones
with the older managers,
right, that I can do that
in person, I have
separate moments that I'm
just there for SDRs to
come and have a chat, or
for me to just walk over
to to sales or to
operations or marketing
and just go and have a
have a catch up, and have
that personal connection,
and then all the other
hard work I can then do
when I get home. I
Mark Ackers: think that
must be hard for you as
well, though, because
you're coming in to serve
your team. But equally,
when you're going to be
in the office, I know
other senior leaders.
We're great. Catherine's
in, we can get some time
with her, and you'll have
to push back on that,
because again, you know,
what's very clear is how
you put your team first,
but that must be very
difficult for you to try
and juggle both sides of
that. Yeah,
catherine olivier: it is.
So it's, it's the ever
evolving state of my
calendar. And anyone you
talk to will say that my
calendar is absolutely
insane, but I try to just
juggle it as much as
possible, and even if it
means I can go and walk
to go and grab some lunch
with a chunk of the team,
you know what I mean, and
just have, like, a light
hearted chat and get to
know them a little bit
better. That for me, is
super valuable.
Mark Ackers: Speaking of
going for a walk for
lunch, you and I walked
over to Borough Market.
Have you been
Unknown: back since? Yes,
like many times. Have
you? Have you discovered
anything new? Well, we
had a great Spanish
sandwich last week. This
was amazing.
Mark Ackers: I saw these
strawberries and
chocolate at Borough
Market. Yes, they're too
messy to walk with,
though. Oh, okay. Well,
next time I want to, I
want to try those. You
have to take me there.
Um, speaking of juggling,
right? So juggling Canada
and whatnot, let's get
into you as the coach and
mentor there, but, but
also a mother, and it's
very pertinent for me.
My, I've got two boys,
but my, my wife, just
returned back to work two
days ago after a year off
for maternity leave, and
our youngest has started
nursery. So it's very
pertinent to me, and I'm
very conscious of it.
You're a leader and a
parent. How do you
balance the intensity of
both military
catherine olivier: precision,
I would say so it's, it's
a regime, right? Almost
like my husband and I
have like the like school
drop off, school pickup,
like he does the one I do
the other. The beginning
of the week. We make sure
we know who is, who does
what on which day and and
whether we need to change
it because of meetings or
events or anyone being
out of the country and
stuff like that. It's
having a school where I
can genuinely have him
from eight in the morning
until five or six in the
afternoon, so I can have
a full day in in between.
And he's used to that,
right? He's been there
since he was, like, six
months. So so he doesn't
know any better, and
loves it. But that gives
us the space right to to
plan our days around it.
And I think for me, it's
being ruthless with,
like, blocking those
moments out. So like, I
I'm, at the moment, in
charge of all the
pickups, so I don't drop
off, I only pick up, and
that is blocked in my
calendar. And I can be on
calls, because I'll be in
the car, so I can speak
on my hand, hands free
setup, but I can't look
at slides, so it's
specifically in my
calendar. If you want to
talk to me now, it's a
chat, and it's not like I
need to check out any
graphs or anything like
that. So doing that, and
then having an hour after
where I can spend time
with my child to, like,
talk through his day,
feed him, bathe him, and
all of that, and then I
can be back on calls
again, right? That's,
that's fine, but it's
really about being very,
very, I think, again,
ruthless in like, No, I
can't do this because
this is my time with my
family. And once he's in
bed, you know, all bets
are off, I'm back. That's
fine,
Mark Ackers: but that's
the time of your husband,
yeah, but he
catherine olivier: has
the same he works very
much American hours as
well, so he works later,
late as well, which is
why he can do the drop
off in the morning. So,
yeah, it's the it's to
juggle. So so to say,
yeah, do we get loads and
loads of time together in
the evenings? Probably
not, but, like, we make
up for that over the
weekends. I don't work on
the weekends at all.
Mark Ackers: Good, so I'm
glad you have that
boundary. And this next
question comes from a
parent that my first born
was in nursery, eight
till six, five days a
week. They went to school
and it was after school
club every night of the
week. Now, got a baby
that's just started
nursery. So this comes
from a place of a parent
that's done exactly the
same. But I also know the
guilt that my wife has
balancing her career and
and I feel that too, but
I feel that that sits
heavier with her as the
mother, and I'm just, I'm
just wondering, you know,
we tell ourselves every
day, this is the right
thing. This is what's
best for our children.
This is the right thing.
But I'd love to hear from
you as the as the mother,
and there'll be loads of
other mothers that listen
to this, that have their
kids in after school,
clubs, breakfast clubs.
How do you and. And Gil
is the wrong word,
because I don't believe
you should have it, but I
know it sits with us as
parents. How do you deal
with that
catherine olivier: as
much as possible? Again,
by rationalising it out
going like one, he
doesn't know any better,
and he's very happy
child, so it doesn't seem
to doing any harm in him
at the moment. Two, I
also know I'm a much
nicer person or better
mom. I think if I work,
because I noticed that
when I'm on maternity
leave I was miserable,
that might just be me.
There's a lot of people
who love it, right? I
couldn't wait to go back
to work because I really,
really missed it, right?
So I know that unless I'm
working, I'm not a very
happy person to be
around. So it's better
for him that I'm doing
what I'm doing doesn't
make it any easier,
though. I mean, I've
travelled to, like, I had
to do a presentation in
in Las Vegas, and I was
like, on on the verge of
getting on that plane,
and then my husband calls
saying I'm at a GP
because he's sick. And
then it's like, that
moment where you go like,
Okay, what do I do? Do I
now not get on this plane
knowing that there's like
1000 people waiting for
me to do that
presentation, or do I
trust him to deal with
it, and then kind of say,
like, let's see, let's
see what happens. And
that's the choice I made,
because it wasn't
ridiculously urgent or
severe at that point, at
least that's what I
thought. Went to America.
I got there and it was
tonsillitis. So he was a
very unhappy baby for
that week. My poor
husband was like, lack of
sleep for five nights, I
think so he wasn't very
happy. But that was then,
that is then the balance
right for like, I'm the
I'm the leader of the
organisation that is
expected to go there and
do this. Do I trust my
partner to have my back
and to deal with this?
Did I, like, literally,
every day think, Oh no, I
need to get on a plane
back home. Yeah, pretty
much. So I cut it short
and went home. But I had,
I had to go at that
point, at least that was
the call that I made, and
other people might make a
different call, right?
And it might also be like
circumstance or anything
like that at that point,
but it's never easy.
First
Mark Ackers: of all, you
made the right call,
right? You, You are the
best person to make that
call and judge. So you
made the right call 100%
and I can just so relate
in a number of ways. I
I've been at the train
station, wife's not well,
child's not well and and
I appreciate like dad
guilt doesn't get spoken
about as much, but had
that same thing of, do I
get on this train or not?
I've got to deliver a
talk at an exhibition or
show, etc. I think what
you've said, though, is
just so relatable. And I
think so many people are
gonna smile when
listening to that. And
literally, last night in
the kitchen, talking to
my wife, day two back at
work, and she says, I
think I'm a better mom
already. I feel like I've
got more patience for my
for my little boy. You
know, he's quite clingy
because he's just come
back from his second dad
nursery, but I feel like
I'm here for him because
I've been at work. My
mind's been stimulated.
I'm really enjoying being
back. I'm gonna be a
better mom going forward.
And yeah, my wife
definitely enjoyed a
limited paternity leave,
but part of it sucked.
Charlie was unwell. She
was unwell, or a friend
last minute dropped out
because their baby needed
a nap, and it can be a
really lonely place, but
yeah, it's, it's great to
hear how you deal with
and again, these are
unfair words, but it's
what is called that, that
mum Gill and I was really
conscious to get into
your mind of someone with
such a demanding job, how
they deal with that, with
one hell of a commute as
well. And I really
enjoyed that part of the
conversation, I think
coming towards the end,
because, again, you
mentioned how busy your
calendar is. I know we're
so fortunate to have your
time today. Let's try to
wrap this up. What's one
thing you wish every SDR
manager would start doing
various
catherine olivier: things?
First thing that comes up
is like, just be yourself
and trust your trust your
gut when it comes to,
like, dealing with your
team and ask for advice
and then make, make
something. Tailor, make
something for your group,
rather than try to fit in
the mould that been set
for you. Too often, I
just see people doing
what everyone's been
doing, never questioning
processes, setups, etc,
that are available to
them to go. Well, I know
this is available, but do
I like this? Do I even
want this right? Does it
make sense for me and for
my team? And I think that
just trying to fit the
mould and then not
succeeding is way worse
than just trying to
suggest other ways of
doing things. I
Mark Ackers: suppose one
of the things that your
work on then, and you've
spoke to me about before,
is giving them the
confidence to do that
flip the question, What's
one thing you wish SDR
managers would stop
doing? Well,
catherine olivier: one
thing is definitely
pushing for inputs rather
than caring about the
outcomes. I think there's
still way too many SDR
leaders out there,
despite all evidence to
the contrary, who are,
like, very proud, like,
Oh my God, my team sent
20,000 emails this week.
It was a great week. And
you go, really, was it
though? Like, how many
came back positive? What
did you book from that?
You know, where they're
like, Oh yeah, my team.
They were, they were,
they were on fire. They
all made like, 300 calls
today. It's like, Yeah,
but was that good? Did
they get anything from
that, right? So, so I
think a lot of people
hide behind vanity
metrics, if it makes
sense, right? We've been
very busy putting loads
and and look at all the
numbers that we're that
we're throwing at it
without then actually
showing what gets out of
that. So care about the
outcomes. First dashboard
Mark Ackers: managers.
The easiest thing to do
is to build a dashboard
with loads of widgets and
gives you numbers. The
hard thing to do, sit
look at the emails,
listen to the calls,
check the responses and
the quality, because that
takes time, and I think
it's such a true point.
Here's the thing that's
been a problem the whole
time I've known the world
of sales and sales
dashboard managers. And I
think it's great that you
know, you mentioned some
tools earlier on, tools
out there that that help
you get better insight
into into what's going
on. Catherine, I have
loved our time together
this. This has been a
great episode. I feel
like we've gone into so
many different little
pockets of areas that
I've really enjoyed. I
just want to say thank
you for coming on telling
us how you went from
being crap at sales to
the incredible leader you
are at cognism today.
Delighted that we get to
work together as
customers of each other,
and want to thank you for
coming on the podcast.
And I'll come down to
your offices again soon,
and we'll go and check
out those strawberries at
Borough Market. Thanks
for coming on. It was a
pleasure. Take part. You.