1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:00,060 catherine olivier: I 2 00:00:00,060 --> 00:00:01,440 think there's still way 3 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:02,820 too many SDR leaders out 4 00:00:02,820 --> 00:00:04,020 there who are, like, very 5 00:00:04,020 --> 00:00:05,220 proud. Like, oh my God, 6 00:00:05,220 --> 00:00:06,540 my team sent 20,000 7 00:00:07,020 --> 00:00:08,220 emails this week. It was 8 00:00:08,220 --> 00:00:09,240 a great week. There you 9 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:10,500 go. Really, was it? 10 00:00:10,500 --> 00:00:11,640 Though? What did you book 11 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:12,180 from that? 12 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:12,720 Mark Ackers: Former 13 00:00:12,780 --> 00:00:14,340 senior director of Global 14 00:00:14,340 --> 00:00:16,080 sales development at EDB, 15 00:00:16,080 --> 00:00:17,460 VP of global sales 16 00:00:17,460 --> 00:00:18,900 development at click, VP 17 00:00:18,900 --> 00:00:20,160 global sales development 18 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:21,080 for talent, the 19 00:00:21,080 --> 00:00:22,640 ambassador for SDR 20 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:24,440 leaders, EMEA, and now 21 00:00:24,500 --> 00:00:25,940 they're the current VP of 22 00:00:25,940 --> 00:00:27,260 global sales development 23 00:00:27,260 --> 00:00:28,700 at cognism. Today's guest 24 00:00:28,700 --> 00:00:30,740 is Catherine Olivier. A 25 00:00:30,740 --> 00:00:31,460 Unknown: lot of people 26 00:00:31,460 --> 00:00:33,200 don't realise how lonely 27 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:34,340 leadership can be. You 28 00:00:34,340 --> 00:00:35,180 need to keep that 29 00:00:35,180 --> 00:00:36,440 distance, and you need to 30 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:38,060 be able to step away and 31 00:00:38,060 --> 00:00:39,260 not take it personally. 32 00:00:39,260 --> 00:00:39,740 What are 33 00:00:39,740 --> 00:00:40,360 Mark Ackers: they finding 34 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:41,920 hardest right now as 35 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:43,420 first time SDR managers, 36 00:00:43,480 --> 00:00:43,600 you 37 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:44,020 catherine olivier: can't 38 00:00:44,020 --> 00:00:45,100 manage every single 39 00:00:45,100 --> 00:00:46,480 person the same way, even 40 00:00:46,480 --> 00:00:47,380 if it's only seven 41 00:00:47,380 --> 00:00:48,520 people, it's still very 42 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:49,600 necessary that you kind 43 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:50,800 of figure out what makes 44 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:51,940 your team tick on an 45 00:00:51,940 --> 00:00:53,080 individual level. 46 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:53,440 Mark Ackers: How do you 47 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:54,940 go from being a friend to 48 00:00:54,940 --> 00:00:55,600 a manager? If 49 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:55,780 catherine olivier: you're 50 00:00:55,780 --> 00:00:56,920 being very close friends 51 00:00:56,920 --> 00:00:58,180 with, like, one or two on 52 00:00:58,180 --> 00:00:59,800 a team, you always have 53 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:01,020 the perception of 54 00:01:01,020 --> 00:01:02,280 favouritism, I think 55 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:03,780 people don't realise how 56 00:01:03,780 --> 00:01:05,100 tricky that is. When they 57 00:01:05,100 --> 00:01:06,360 get into it, you can't 58 00:01:06,420 --> 00:01:07,800 ease your way into it. 59 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:08,640 You have to set 60 00:01:08,700 --> 00:01:10,800 expectations from day one 61 00:01:10,860 --> 00:01:12,180 that they go, okay. Now 62 00:01:12,180 --> 00:01:13,140 it's different. What's 63 00:01:13,140 --> 00:01:14,040 Mark Ackers: one change 64 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:15,300 that you are seeing right 65 00:01:15,300 --> 00:01:16,860 now that wasn't apparent 66 00:01:16,860 --> 00:01:17,580 last year. It's 67 00:01:17,580 --> 00:01:18,540 continuously 68 00:01:18,540 --> 00:01:19,260 catherine olivier: changing. 69 00:01:19,260 --> 00:01:21,020 So what worked last year, 70 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:22,340 last month might not 71 00:01:22,340 --> 00:01:23,480 work. Now you think 72 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:24,380 you've cracked it, and 73 00:01:24,380 --> 00:01:25,520 then everyone copies, and 74 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:26,660 then it stops working. If 75 00:01:26,660 --> 00:01:28,340 you're an SDR who doesn't 76 00:01:28,340 --> 00:01:29,720 manage to have well 77 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:31,280 researched and well 78 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:33,080 personalised messages, 79 00:01:33,140 --> 00:01:34,040 you're doing something 80 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:34,280 wrong. 81 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:34,700 Mark Ackers: What do you 82 00:01:34,700 --> 00:01:36,080 believe the ratio should 83 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:37,880 be of manager to rep? 84 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:38,240 Golden 85 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:38,540 catherine olivier: Rule, 86 00:01:38,540 --> 00:01:40,280 never more than SDRs to 87 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:41,560 one manager. If you add 88 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:42,760 more, the cracks are 89 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:43,840 starting to show. 90 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:49,780 Mark Ackers: Hello and 91 00:01:49,780 --> 00:01:50,620 welcome to another 92 00:01:50,620 --> 00:01:51,760 episode of The I used to 93 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:53,080 be crap at sales podcast. 94 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:54,160 I'm your host, Mark 95 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:55,600 Akers, the co founder and 96 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:56,800 Head of Sales here at my 97 00:01:56,800 --> 00:01:58,000 sales coach, we call the 98 00:01:58,000 --> 00:01:59,020 podcast app because it's 99 00:01:59,020 --> 00:02:00,120 true, and all of our 100 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:02,160 guests say the same, and 101 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:04,140 today I am joined by 102 00:02:04,140 --> 00:02:05,580 someone with incredible 103 00:02:05,580 --> 00:02:06,840 experience when it comes 104 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:08,460 to building leading, high 105 00:02:08,460 --> 00:02:10,140 performing, winning sales 106 00:02:10,140 --> 00:02:11,100 development teams. 107 00:02:11,100 --> 00:02:12,120 Today's guest, if you 108 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:12,840 haven't guessed it 109 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:14,280 already, is Catherine 110 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:16,080 Olivier. Catherine, a big 111 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:17,160 welcome to the I used to 112 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:18,300 be crap at sales podcast. 113 00:02:18,300 --> 00:02:19,440 How are you? Thanks very 114 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:20,420 much, Mark. I'm really 115 00:02:20,420 --> 00:02:21,200 pleased to be here, 116 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:22,580 delighted to have you, 117 00:02:22,580 --> 00:02:23,600 Catherine, obviously has 118 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:25,040 gone through your resume 119 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:25,880 there. I appreciate I 120 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:26,780 might have got that in 121 00:02:26,780 --> 00:02:27,860 the slight wrong order. 122 00:02:27,920 --> 00:02:29,300 That is an incredible 123 00:02:29,300 --> 00:02:30,860 background, so well 124 00:02:30,860 --> 00:02:31,820 experienced, as I say, 125 00:02:31,820 --> 00:02:32,960 when it comes to building 126 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:34,520 leading, winning sales 127 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:35,840 development teams. But of 128 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:37,160 course, your journey 129 00:02:37,220 --> 00:02:38,600 started somewhere. We 130 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:39,320 always kick up the 131 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:40,540 podcast off with a yes, 132 00:02:40,540 --> 00:02:41,920 no question, Catherine, 133 00:02:41,980 --> 00:02:43,180 did you used to be crap 134 00:02:43,180 --> 00:02:44,920 at sales? Oh yes, when 135 00:02:44,920 --> 00:02:46,960 you said yes, what part 136 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:48,280 of your career come 137 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:49,420 racing to the front of 138 00:02:49,420 --> 00:02:50,800 your mind when you had 139 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:52,000 that light bulb moment 140 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:53,080 that perhaps you wasn't 141 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:53,920 as good as you may have 142 00:02:53,920 --> 00:02:55,060 thought that you were, I 143 00:02:55,060 --> 00:02:56,080 suppose I just 144 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:57,640 immediately go back to my 145 00:02:57,640 --> 00:02:59,680 first days as an SDR, 146 00:02:59,740 --> 00:03:01,620 right? And I can't age 147 00:03:01,620 --> 00:03:02,760 myself too much, but that 148 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:04,080 is in the day of real 149 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:05,400 telephones, phone books 150 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:06,540 and excel sheets and 151 00:03:06,540 --> 00:03:08,580 nothing else, and really 152 00:03:08,580 --> 00:03:09,900 having no clue what to 153 00:03:09,900 --> 00:03:11,280 do, how to approach it, 154 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:13,200 and just trying to shove 155 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:14,280 a solution down people's 156 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:15,060 throat no matter what, 157 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:16,140 was there a particular 158 00:03:16,140 --> 00:03:17,100 moment when you just 159 00:03:17,100 --> 00:03:18,540 thought something needs 160 00:03:18,540 --> 00:03:19,800 to change, because what 161 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:21,320 I'm doing is not working, 162 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:22,700 yeah, for sure. I mean, 163 00:03:22,700 --> 00:03:24,560 it's that point where you 164 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:26,180 don't hit quota right 165 00:03:26,180 --> 00:03:27,140 where you go, Oh, my God. 166 00:03:27,140 --> 00:03:28,040 So clearly I need to 167 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:29,240 change. The situation 168 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:30,260 that I was in was that it 169 00:03:30,260 --> 00:03:32,000 was a group of all new 170 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:34,040 SDRs that all had never 171 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:35,960 done SDR role before. So 172 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:37,760 it's like the situation 173 00:03:37,820 --> 00:03:38,840 where no one knows what 174 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:39,980 to do, and you don't have 175 00:03:39,980 --> 00:03:41,140 a coach available to kind 176 00:03:41,140 --> 00:03:42,040 of show you the row. So 177 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:43,540 it's just trial and error 178 00:03:43,540 --> 00:03:44,680 and testing and testing 179 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:45,580 and testing and then 180 00:03:45,580 --> 00:03:46,660 eventually figuring out 181 00:03:46,660 --> 00:03:48,340 what works best. And how 182 00:03:48,340 --> 00:03:49,660 did you figure out what 183 00:03:49,660 --> 00:03:50,920 works best? Did someone 184 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:52,360 help you? Or was this all 185 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:53,500 on your own? No, no, I 186 00:03:53,500 --> 00:03:54,400 did get some help 187 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:56,380 eventually from the AES 188 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:57,160 that were like, Oh my 189 00:03:57,160 --> 00:03:58,540 gosh, our SDRs are 190 00:03:58,540 --> 00:03:59,500 struggling. We better 191 00:03:59,500 --> 00:04:00,520 give them a little bit of 192 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:01,800 help here, and then it's 193 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:03,120 starting to really break 194 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:04,080 down what we were trying 195 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:05,580 to do, which is like you 196 00:04:05,580 --> 00:04:06,660 need to first build a 197 00:04:06,660 --> 00:04:07,860 relationship, and you 198 00:04:07,860 --> 00:04:09,840 first need to maybe start 199 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:11,640 with some information 200 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:13,020 gathering before you 201 00:04:13,620 --> 00:04:14,880 assume that you know what 202 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:15,840 they want. And I think 203 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:17,460 that was that little 204 00:04:17,460 --> 00:04:18,420 light bulb moment that 205 00:04:18,420 --> 00:04:19,620 you go, Okay, it's not 206 00:04:19,860 --> 00:04:21,080 just about trying to 207 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:22,220 push, push, push, but 208 00:04:22,220 --> 00:04:23,480 it's more a game of give 209 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:24,680 and take, and there's no 210 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:25,880 wrong answer. I'm just 211 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:26,900 curious, what was the 212 00:04:26,900 --> 00:04:28,040 reason it wasn't your 213 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:29,000 manager helping you? You 214 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:29,840 know, not thinking back, 215 00:04:29,840 --> 00:04:30,680 it's a very long time 216 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:31,940 ago, I can genuinely not 217 00:04:31,940 --> 00:04:33,320 remember whether I had a 218 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:35,000 manager or who it was, 219 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:36,980 which is kind of an idea 220 00:04:36,980 --> 00:04:38,180 of how much I worked with 221 00:04:38,180 --> 00:04:40,160 them and how much impact 222 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:41,440 they had, was it quite a 223 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:43,000 big team. Then that all 224 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:44,200 fell into one manager. I 225 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:45,820 think we had like 15 226 00:04:45,820 --> 00:04:47,320 SDRs. I think at that 227 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:48,580 point we were just doing 228 00:04:48,580 --> 00:04:49,840 the best we could. And 229 00:04:49,840 --> 00:04:51,280 eventually more structure 230 00:04:51,280 --> 00:04:52,360 came, and eventually 231 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:53,680 people started to join 232 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:55,000 who had more experience 233 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:56,080 and were taking everyone 234 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:56,920 under their wing. Do you 235 00:04:56,920 --> 00:04:57,820 feel like you might have 236 00:04:57,820 --> 00:04:59,140 lost people in the team 237 00:04:59,140 --> 00:04:59,920 that could have gone on? 238 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:01,080 Be great, but because it 239 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:02,580 just took too long to get 240 00:05:02,580 --> 00:05:03,540 the structure in place, 241 00:05:03,540 --> 00:05:04,200 people quit the 242 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:05,460 profession. Possibly, 243 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:06,540 Unknown: possibly people 244 00:05:06,540 --> 00:05:07,260 that thought they weren't 245 00:05:07,260 --> 00:05:08,340 any good, but maybe with 246 00:05:08,340 --> 00:05:08,940 the right type of 247 00:05:08,940 --> 00:05:09,960 coaching, they could have 248 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:10,860 been better. Obviously, 249 00:05:10,860 --> 00:05:11,400 you mentioned 250 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:12,120 Mark Ackers: 15 there, 251 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:13,380 jumping to where you are 252 00:05:13,380 --> 00:05:14,160 today, and then we'll 253 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:15,120 come straight back. But 254 00:05:15,300 --> 00:05:16,320 you obviously know what 255 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:17,160 it looks like, 256 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:18,180 structurally to have a 257 00:05:18,180 --> 00:05:19,620 great sales development 258 00:05:19,620 --> 00:05:20,840 team. What do you believe 259 00:05:20,840 --> 00:05:22,280 the ratio should be of 260 00:05:22,280 --> 00:05:23,960 manager to rep? Golden 261 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:25,040 Rule, never more than 262 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:26,180 seven. SDRs to one. 263 00:05:26,180 --> 00:05:27,320 Manager. Tell me why it's 264 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:28,400 seven. It's not five, 265 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:29,360 it's not 10. That's a 266 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:29,840 hard one. 267 00:05:29,840 --> 00:05:30,260 catherine olivier: Probably 268 00:05:30,260 --> 00:05:31,580 just experience. I've 269 00:05:31,580 --> 00:05:32,780 seen it. I've seen it 270 00:05:32,780 --> 00:05:34,580 work kind of up to seven, 271 00:05:34,580 --> 00:05:35,960 and if you add more, the 272 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:37,040 cracks are starting to 273 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:38,360 show where there's just 274 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:39,560 not enough time in a week 275 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:40,900 to to deal with anyone, 276 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:42,100 everyone sufficiently. 277 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:43,720 Five, great. I mean, I'd 278 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:44,860 have a one to one ratio 279 00:05:44,860 --> 00:05:45,700 if you could have it, but 280 00:05:45,700 --> 00:05:46,360 that's just not 281 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:47,980 realistic, right? So I 282 00:05:47,980 --> 00:05:50,260 think currently I've got 283 00:05:50,260 --> 00:05:51,460 a team of five with a 284 00:05:51,460 --> 00:05:52,360 manager, six over the 285 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:53,680 manager and a few of 286 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:54,940 seven with a manager. You 287 00:05:54,940 --> 00:05:56,860 do what you can and the 288 00:05:56,860 --> 00:05:58,240 fewer the better. But 289 00:05:58,240 --> 00:05:59,620 don't try to go over 290 00:05:59,620 --> 00:06:01,080 seven. Is what my advice 291 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:01,620 always is, 292 00:06:01,620 --> 00:06:02,220 Mark Ackers: sounds good. 293 00:06:02,220 --> 00:06:03,360 So just recap for us. 294 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:03,960 Then, what is the 295 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:04,860 structure of your team 296 00:06:04,860 --> 00:06:07,200 look like today? I have 297 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:07,620 catherine olivier: a team 298 00:06:07,620 --> 00:06:09,180 in America with a 299 00:06:09,180 --> 00:06:10,380 manager, a team in 300 00:06:10,380 --> 00:06:11,820 Germany with a manager, 301 00:06:11,820 --> 00:06:12,840 team in France with a 302 00:06:12,840 --> 00:06:14,160 manager, and I've got 303 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:15,780 three teams in the UK, 304 00:06:16,140 --> 00:06:17,580 like call them an SMB 305 00:06:17,580 --> 00:06:19,140 team, a mid market team 306 00:06:19,140 --> 00:06:20,480 and an enterprise team, 307 00:06:20,840 --> 00:06:21,680 and each of those with a 308 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:22,040 manager, 309 00:06:22,100 --> 00:06:22,940 Mark Ackers: you must be 310 00:06:22,940 --> 00:06:24,380 incredibly busy. We'll 311 00:06:24,380 --> 00:06:25,220 get to your time and 312 00:06:25,220 --> 00:06:26,300 cognism And that's where 313 00:06:26,300 --> 00:06:27,380 we're spend most of the 314 00:06:27,380 --> 00:06:28,340 episode. But I suppose 315 00:06:28,340 --> 00:06:29,240 before then, one of the 316 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:30,260 questions I like to ask 317 00:06:30,260 --> 00:06:31,520 guests as well is, when 318 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:32,300 you look back at your 319 00:06:32,300 --> 00:06:33,680 career, everyone's made a 320 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:35,120 big, big mistake in 321 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:36,080 sales, something where 322 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:36,860 they've maybe lost a 323 00:06:36,860 --> 00:06:38,120 deal, so it's gone 324 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:39,680 completely wrong. It's a 325 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:40,600 funny lesson that they 326 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:41,680 can look back on. Now, 327 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:42,520 what would you say when 328 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:43,660 you reflect back is 329 00:06:43,660 --> 00:06:44,440 probably one of the 330 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:45,400 biggest mistakes you've 331 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:46,000 made in sales? 332 00:06:46,060 --> 00:06:46,300 catherine olivier: Oh, 333 00:06:46,300 --> 00:06:47,440 I've made so many 334 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:49,960 over the over the years, 335 00:06:50,020 --> 00:06:51,640 but I think, personally, 336 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:53,020 it's been thinking that I 337 00:06:53,020 --> 00:06:54,700 can do everything. So 338 00:06:54,700 --> 00:06:56,020 I've had teams where I 339 00:06:56,020 --> 00:06:56,980 had not only the sales 340 00:06:56,980 --> 00:06:58,060 development team, but I 341 00:06:58,060 --> 00:06:59,200 also had an inside sales 342 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:00,060 team, and I had a 343 00:07:00,060 --> 00:07:01,200 customer success team, 344 00:07:01,260 --> 00:07:02,700 and everything rolled up 345 00:07:02,700 --> 00:07:04,500 to me, and it's three 346 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:06,120 exceptionally different 347 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:07,320 motions, right? With 348 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:08,220 different skill sets, 349 00:07:08,220 --> 00:07:09,120 different people, 350 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:10,020 different targets, 351 00:07:10,020 --> 00:07:11,220 different everything. And 352 00:07:11,220 --> 00:07:12,120 at that point in my 353 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:12,840 career, maybe it's 354 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:13,680 different now, but at 355 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:15,240 that point, there was no 356 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:16,380 way I could do all of 357 00:07:16,380 --> 00:07:17,880 that successfully in one 358 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:19,020 go. So what happened, 359 00:07:19,020 --> 00:07:20,420 like what broke to make 360 00:07:20,420 --> 00:07:21,440 you realise you can't do 361 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:22,400 anything. Well, it's the 362 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:24,500 shifting in between 363 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:25,940 motions, right? Like the 364 00:07:25,940 --> 00:07:27,200 SDR team. You have to 365 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:28,820 support them in, like the 366 00:07:28,820 --> 00:07:29,960 lead conversions, the 367 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:31,280 outbounding and all of 368 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:32,300 that. But then you have 369 00:07:32,300 --> 00:07:33,800 to also work with the 370 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:35,120 inside sales team that 371 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:36,440 has quotas of closing 372 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:37,340 things, and they need 373 00:07:37,340 --> 00:07:38,660 support with like pricing 374 00:07:38,660 --> 00:07:40,120 and demos and all of 375 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:41,260 those kind of things, and 376 00:07:41,260 --> 00:07:42,160 then you have the 377 00:07:42,220 --> 00:07:44,140 customers that are trying 378 00:07:44,140 --> 00:07:45,520 to, like, either renew or 379 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:46,660 they're trying to expand, 380 00:07:46,660 --> 00:07:48,100 and that's a whole other 381 00:07:48,100 --> 00:07:50,440 host of discussions and 382 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:51,820 issues that come up with 383 00:07:51,940 --> 00:07:53,140 with that. And that is 384 00:07:53,140 --> 00:07:55,780 just a lot, if it all 385 00:07:55,780 --> 00:07:57,640 flows into one person. 386 00:07:57,640 --> 00:07:59,440 Oh, absolutely, like too 387 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:00,780 many plays to spin with 388 00:08:00,780 --> 00:08:01,860 someone with such a 389 00:08:01,860 --> 00:08:03,180 background in sales 390 00:08:03,180 --> 00:08:05,280 development, I'm curious 391 00:08:05,700 --> 00:08:06,720 what made you fall in 392 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:07,320 love with sales 393 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:08,340 development, of all the 394 00:08:08,340 --> 00:08:09,300 different aspects of 395 00:08:09,300 --> 00:08:10,200 sales, what was it that 396 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:10,980 made you fall in love 397 00:08:10,980 --> 00:08:12,240 with this part of the 398 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:13,140 role? I think there's a 399 00:08:13,140 --> 00:08:15,720 few things. One is that 400 00:08:16,140 --> 00:08:17,400 it's continuously 401 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:19,440 changing. So what worked 402 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:21,500 last year, last month, 403 00:08:21,500 --> 00:08:22,700 might not work. Now 404 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:24,500 there's new tools, 405 00:08:24,500 --> 00:08:25,880 there's new tactics, new 406 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:27,200 strategies, every single 407 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:28,040 time, and you think 408 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:28,940 you've cracked it, and 409 00:08:28,940 --> 00:08:30,080 then everyone copies. And 410 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:30,980 then it stops working. 411 00:08:30,980 --> 00:08:31,760 You have to start all 412 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:32,900 over again. So I think 413 00:08:32,900 --> 00:08:34,040 that staying on top of 414 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:35,300 things, staying relevant, 415 00:08:35,300 --> 00:08:37,220 staying modern, I would 416 00:08:37,220 --> 00:08:38,480 almost call it right, not 417 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:40,240 not being stuck in in the 418 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:41,380 past with what used to 419 00:08:41,380 --> 00:08:42,940 work for you. I really do 420 00:08:42,940 --> 00:08:44,560 like that, right? So, so 421 00:08:44,560 --> 00:08:45,640 that's definitely a thing 422 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:47,080 that I that I enjoy about 423 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:48,100 it. Another thing that's 424 00:08:48,100 --> 00:08:49,240 very, very important is 425 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:51,340 obviously the SDRs being 426 00:08:51,340 --> 00:08:54,280 that career building 427 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:55,480 team, right with the 428 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:56,920 youngsters very often 429 00:08:56,920 --> 00:08:58,240 that are in the beginning 430 00:08:58,240 --> 00:08:59,320 of their sales career and 431 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:00,420 are trying to figure out 432 00:09:00,420 --> 00:09:01,620 what, what is next for 433 00:09:01,620 --> 00:09:03,060 them, and then kind of 434 00:09:03,180 --> 00:09:04,680 guiding them towards 435 00:09:04,680 --> 00:09:06,240 that. Like almost every 436 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:07,560 single SDR that's 437 00:09:07,980 --> 00:09:10,080 interviewed usually goes, 438 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:11,040 oh, I want to be, be an 439 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:12,360 AE next. That's what I'm 440 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:13,260 going to be. And then, 441 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:15,180 fine, I don't say much. 442 00:09:15,180 --> 00:09:15,900 And then they get 443 00:09:15,900 --> 00:09:16,920 started, and then they 444 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:17,760 figure out, wait, 445 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:19,440 actually, I'm really good 446 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:20,540 at something completely 447 00:09:20,540 --> 00:09:21,500 different, and I'm going 448 00:09:21,500 --> 00:09:22,460 to go in this different 449 00:09:22,460 --> 00:09:23,720 direction. And like being 450 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:24,740 part of that journey, and 451 00:09:24,740 --> 00:09:25,760 kind of like being there 452 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:26,780 to support and mentor 453 00:09:26,780 --> 00:09:29,300 them where we can is, I 454 00:09:29,300 --> 00:09:30,140 think, a really, really 455 00:09:30,140 --> 00:09:32,300 important and fun bit of 456 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:33,320 being an STR leader. 457 00:09:33,380 --> 00:09:34,400 Well, I love the you 458 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:35,300 know, very clear. You got 459 00:09:35,300 --> 00:09:36,740 a passion for it. Let's 460 00:09:36,740 --> 00:09:37,580 talk about some of the 461 00:09:37,580 --> 00:09:38,360 changes that you have 462 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:38,900 seen. You know, I 463 00:09:38,900 --> 00:09:39,920 appreciate you said 464 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:40,960 yourself. You don't know 465 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:42,580 age yourself with some of 466 00:09:42,580 --> 00:09:43,720 your answers, but some of 467 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:44,620 your answers are, are 468 00:09:44,620 --> 00:09:45,580 indicating you've got 469 00:09:45,580 --> 00:09:46,600 vast experience here, 470 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:47,560 right? You've done this 471 00:09:47,560 --> 00:09:49,060 role for a long time. You 472 00:09:49,060 --> 00:09:50,440 talk about what worked 473 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:51,940 last year isn't working 474 00:09:51,940 --> 00:09:53,260 this year. What's one 475 00:09:53,260 --> 00:09:54,220 change that you are 476 00:09:54,220 --> 00:09:55,720 seeing right now that 477 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:57,280 was, uh, wasn't apparent 478 00:09:57,280 --> 00:09:58,120 last year? Well, whether 479 00:09:58,120 --> 00:09:58,840 it's last year or a 480 00:09:58,840 --> 00:09:59,920 little bit longer ago. 481 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:01,080 I think there's been a 482 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:02,880 massive shift of quality, 483 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:03,780 of quantity. So 484 00:10:03,780 --> 00:10:06,180 definitely the shift from 485 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:08,160 just blasting and just 486 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:09,180 putting more and more and 487 00:10:09,180 --> 00:10:10,380 more activities in 488 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:11,460 knowing that at some 489 00:10:11,460 --> 00:10:12,540 point things will be 490 00:10:12,540 --> 00:10:14,280 okay. Now you really need 491 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:15,540 to be a lot more 492 00:10:15,540 --> 00:10:17,400 researched, considered 493 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:19,320 personalised, etc, at 494 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:20,720 least in organisations 495 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:22,160 that I've been, that I've 496 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:23,180 been at, so that's a big 497 00:10:23,180 --> 00:10:24,320 shift, and there's just a 498 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:25,940 lot more tools these days 499 00:10:25,940 --> 00:10:28,700 to help SDRs with doing 500 00:10:28,700 --> 00:10:30,680 that right. So I think 501 00:10:30,680 --> 00:10:32,240 expectations have gone up 502 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:34,100 that if you're an SDR who 503 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:35,660 doesn't manage to have 504 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:38,900 well researched and well 505 00:10:38,900 --> 00:10:40,600 written and well, 506 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:42,400 personalised messages 507 00:10:43,060 --> 00:10:44,080 you're doing something 508 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:45,640 wrong, because everything 509 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:47,560 is there to help you do 510 00:10:47,560 --> 00:10:48,880 it. And a year ago, I 511 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:49,840 don't think a lot of that 512 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:51,580 was available yet. So 513 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:52,600 people were like, No, 514 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:53,260 it's fine. Like, he 515 00:10:53,260 --> 00:10:54,340 couldn't help it, you 516 00:10:54,340 --> 00:10:55,180 know what I mean? And now 517 00:10:55,180 --> 00:10:56,020 it's like, no, no, no, 518 00:10:56,020 --> 00:10:57,220 no. You should exactly 519 00:10:57,220 --> 00:10:58,480 know how to how to do 520 00:10:58,480 --> 00:10:59,200 this now. And you 521 00:10:59,200 --> 00:10:59,740 Mark Ackers: mentioned 522 00:10:59,740 --> 00:11:02,220 tech stack. So I want to 523 00:11:02,220 --> 00:11:04,320 ask you what a key piece 524 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:05,400 of technology is that you 525 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:06,420 use today that perhaps 526 00:11:06,420 --> 00:11:07,320 you didn't use a couple 527 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:08,940 of years ago? And the 528 00:11:08,940 --> 00:11:10,500 answer, of course, cannot 529 00:11:10,500 --> 00:11:12,120 be cognizant. But I'll do 530 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:13,260 that for you at my sales 531 00:11:13,260 --> 00:11:14,460 coach. We're we're 532 00:11:14,460 --> 00:11:16,140 customers of cognizant. 533 00:11:16,140 --> 00:11:17,040 And Cognizant is a 534 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:18,060 customer and my sales 535 00:11:18,060 --> 00:11:18,900 coach, of course, but 536 00:11:18,900 --> 00:11:19,800 yeah, Cognizant is an 537 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:21,140 amazing tool. I know we'd 538 00:11:21,140 --> 00:11:22,460 be lost without it. But 539 00:11:22,460 --> 00:11:23,780 without saying, cognism, 540 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:26,000 what is one piece in your 541 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:26,840 tech stack that you 542 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:27,680 didn't have a couple of 543 00:11:27,680 --> 00:11:28,640 years ago that you just 544 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:29,540 couldn't live without now 545 00:11:29,540 --> 00:11:30,620 looking to unlock your 546 00:11:30,620 --> 00:11:31,820 team's full potential, at 547 00:11:31,820 --> 00:11:33,080 my sales coach, we pair 548 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:34,220 individuals and teams 549 00:11:34,220 --> 00:11:35,600 with expert coaches for 550 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:36,980 personalised one to one 551 00:11:36,980 --> 00:11:37,760 and group coaching 552 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:39,020 sessions. Our platform 553 00:11:39,020 --> 00:11:40,220 makes booking seamless. 554 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:41,800 It tracks progress and 555 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:43,060 delivers real results. 556 00:11:43,060 --> 00:11:44,560 Studies show expert 557 00:11:44,560 --> 00:11:45,700 coaching increases win 558 00:11:45,700 --> 00:11:47,680 rates by 30% and revenue 559 00:11:47,680 --> 00:11:49,060 by 7% whether you're an 560 00:11:49,060 --> 00:11:50,080 individual or a team 561 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:51,100 leader, we provide 562 00:11:51,100 --> 00:11:52,180 coaching that sticks and 563 00:11:52,180 --> 00:11:53,500 delivers visit my sales 564 00:11:53,500 --> 00:11:55,300 coach.com use the link in 565 00:11:55,300 --> 00:11:56,260 the bio and start 566 00:11:56,260 --> 00:11:57,280 achieving your goals 567 00:11:57,280 --> 00:11:57,760 today. 568 00:11:57,820 --> 00:11:58,120 catherine olivier: So 569 00:11:58,120 --> 00:11:59,440 I'll break that answer up 570 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:00,600 in two. I think, like, 571 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:01,680 couple of years ago, 572 00:12:01,680 --> 00:12:02,640 like, long time ago, we 573 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:03,480 didn't have things like 574 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:04,440 outreach and SalesLoft, 575 00:12:04,500 --> 00:12:06,300 so having that has made 576 00:12:06,300 --> 00:12:08,040 an incredible impact to 577 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:09,780 how SDRs go about their 578 00:12:09,780 --> 00:12:11,700 day to day, right? So I 579 00:12:11,700 --> 00:12:12,840 think that's been, that's 580 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:14,100 been one massive shift 581 00:12:14,100 --> 00:12:15,000 that I've seen over the 582 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:15,900 years. But again, that 583 00:12:15,900 --> 00:12:16,920 ages me massively, 584 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:17,640 because that's been 585 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:18,900 around for a while. And I 586 00:12:18,900 --> 00:12:20,840 think tools like Gong, 587 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:22,160 right? Recording, 588 00:12:22,220 --> 00:12:24,020 insights, training and 589 00:12:24,020 --> 00:12:26,360 coaching on on calls, 590 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:27,920 etc, made a massive 591 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:29,000 impact as well, and 592 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:30,080 that's not been around 593 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:31,040 for too long either. It 594 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:32,180 feels like it's been 595 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:33,860 around forever, but it 596 00:12:33,860 --> 00:12:34,940 really hasn't. Yes, 597 00:12:34,940 --> 00:12:35,480 Mark Ackers: I mean, 598 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:36,980 there I'd say, like table 599 00:12:36,980 --> 00:12:37,880 stakes. Now aren't they 600 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:39,020 having having a tool 601 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:40,220 like, like Gong, 602 00:12:40,220 --> 00:12:40,840 conversation 603 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:41,980 intelligence, obviously, 604 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:44,500 Jiminy here as a UK 605 00:12:44,500 --> 00:12:45,640 version of that as well. 606 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:46,600 And then, like say, 607 00:12:46,660 --> 00:12:48,040 sales, loft, outreach. 608 00:12:48,100 --> 00:12:49,540 I've bought outreach 609 00:12:49,540 --> 00:12:51,040 before and been in that 610 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:52,540 process. Do you have a 611 00:12:52,540 --> 00:12:53,500 preference out of sales? 612 00:12:53,500 --> 00:12:54,580 Often outreach? Ah, 613 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:54,940 catherine olivier: funny 614 00:12:54,940 --> 00:12:55,900 that you ask. Everyone 615 00:12:55,900 --> 00:12:57,340 always asks me I started 616 00:12:57,340 --> 00:12:58,780 the first one I got used 617 00:12:58,780 --> 00:13:00,360 to was sales loft. Then 618 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:01,020 when I changed 619 00:13:01,020 --> 00:13:02,520 organisations, they had 620 00:13:02,580 --> 00:13:03,840 outreach, weren't happy, 621 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:04,740 and then we moved to 622 00:13:04,740 --> 00:13:06,000 sales loft, so that was 623 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:07,560 an interesting one, and 624 00:13:07,620 --> 00:13:09,840 in other organisations, 625 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:10,740 so the last one, and now 626 00:13:10,740 --> 00:13:11,700 with Cognizant, we have 627 00:13:11,700 --> 00:13:13,020 outreach. And I think, to 628 00:13:13,020 --> 00:13:14,640 be fair, both are good, 629 00:13:14,700 --> 00:13:16,200 both do a similar thing. 630 00:13:16,260 --> 00:13:17,280 So I might have like a 631 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:18,480 personal preference, but 632 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:19,440 it's not necessarily 633 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:21,020 based on how well they 634 00:13:21,020 --> 00:13:21,920 work, fair enough. 635 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:22,700 Mark Ackers: I'll let you 636 00:13:22,700 --> 00:13:23,660 stay on the fence of that 637 00:13:23,660 --> 00:13:24,680 one slightly let's talk 638 00:13:24,680 --> 00:13:26,660 about landing the role at 639 00:13:26,660 --> 00:13:28,220 cognism. Huge shoes to 640 00:13:28,220 --> 00:13:29,840 fill, in the sense of 641 00:13:29,900 --> 00:13:31,460 David Bentham. Had that 642 00:13:31,460 --> 00:13:32,900 role, very well known in 643 00:13:32,900 --> 00:13:34,280 the industry, been with 644 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:36,680 cognism a long time? Take 645 00:13:36,680 --> 00:13:37,880 me back to first of all, 646 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:39,140 how did that opportunity 647 00:13:39,140 --> 00:13:40,900 come about? Did you apply 648 00:13:40,900 --> 00:13:41,560 for it, or were you 649 00:13:41,560 --> 00:13:42,940 approached? Funnily 650 00:13:42,940 --> 00:13:43,300 catherine olivier: enough, 651 00:13:43,300 --> 00:13:46,060 both. Okay. So obviously 652 00:13:46,420 --> 00:13:48,280 I'd known Dave and been 653 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:49,660 following him, and like 654 00:13:49,660 --> 00:13:50,620 following cognism as 655 00:13:50,620 --> 00:13:51,940 well, so, and I'd been a 656 00:13:51,940 --> 00:13:53,080 Cognizant customer for 657 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:54,100 quite a while. So it's 658 00:13:54,100 --> 00:13:55,060 also like, Okay, I know 659 00:13:55,060 --> 00:13:56,260 about it, and I love the 660 00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:57,400 I love the company and 661 00:13:57,400 --> 00:13:58,600 the product. So obviously 662 00:13:58,600 --> 00:13:59,800 you then see, hey, 663 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:00,780 something comes up at 664 00:14:00,780 --> 00:14:01,800 cognism, and they go, 665 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:03,360 Wow, okay, this is kind 666 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:04,800 of perfect, because it's 667 00:14:04,860 --> 00:14:06,240 a role that suits me to 668 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:07,440 the T and it's a company 669 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:08,520 that I'm genuinely 670 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:09,480 passionate about, so I 671 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:10,380 would love to work there. 672 00:14:10,380 --> 00:14:12,000 So I applied immediately, 673 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:13,380 and then adhere anything 674 00:14:13,380 --> 00:14:14,340 for a while. I think they 675 00:14:14,340 --> 00:14:15,300 were kind of overwhelmed 676 00:14:15,300 --> 00:14:16,020 with the number of 677 00:14:16,020 --> 00:14:17,100 applications that came 678 00:14:17,100 --> 00:14:18,960 their way. So I did what 679 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:20,300 I think everybody should 680 00:14:20,300 --> 00:14:21,320 be doing when you're 681 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:22,520 applying for any type of 682 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:24,260 role, whether it's SDRs 683 00:14:24,260 --> 00:14:24,920 or anything in 684 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:25,820 leadership, you start 685 00:14:25,820 --> 00:14:26,480 reaching out to the 686 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:27,440 people in a company, 687 00:14:27,500 --> 00:14:29,420 right? So reaching out to 688 00:14:29,420 --> 00:14:30,980 the hiring team, people 689 00:14:30,980 --> 00:14:32,420 in HR, people in sales, 690 00:14:32,420 --> 00:14:33,920 people on the SDR team, 691 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:35,600 to just understand what 692 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:36,560 was going on, what were 693 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:38,780 their needs. How would 694 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:40,040 that fit me? And if 695 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:40,600 there's anything 696 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:41,680 specifically that I could 697 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:42,820 bring up then in 698 00:14:42,940 --> 00:14:43,900 interviews. And then, 699 00:14:43,900 --> 00:14:45,280 funnily enough, Dale 700 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:46,840 Thorne, who is one of the 701 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:48,640 founders of SDR leaders 702 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:49,960 of the USA, who's a dear 703 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:51,400 friend of mine, he spoke 704 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:53,620 to Cognizant CRO at one 705 00:14:53,620 --> 00:14:54,880 point, and he was like, 706 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:55,720 oh, have you spoken to 707 00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:58,480 her yet about the role? 708 00:14:58,480 --> 00:14:59,320 And I think the answer 709 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:02,940 was no. The application 710 00:15:02,940 --> 00:15:04,200 got lost somewhere in the 711 00:15:04,260 --> 00:15:05,160 in the heaps of other 712 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:06,540 ones, right? But then he 713 00:15:06,660 --> 00:15:07,980 he dug it out, and he 714 00:15:07,980 --> 00:15:09,000 reached out and he said, 715 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,040 Actually, I've, I've had 716 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:11,880 a look, and I think it 717 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:13,140 would be a very good idea 718 00:15:13,140 --> 00:15:13,560 if we have a 719 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:14,220 Mark Ackers: chat. A few 720 00:15:14,220 --> 00:15:15,660 things there. One, using 721 00:15:15,660 --> 00:15:16,980 your network, really 722 00:15:16,980 --> 00:15:20,040 smart move. Two, I agree, 723 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:21,200 treating the role like 724 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:21,800 you would a sales 725 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:23,060 opportunity, working it 726 00:15:23,060 --> 00:15:24,560 multi threading. How did 727 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:25,280 you reach out to those 728 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:26,240 people? Was that email? 729 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:27,380 Was that phone call? A 730 00:15:27,380 --> 00:15:28,400 mix? What were you doing? 731 00:15:28,460 --> 00:15:29,780 A mix of phone and 732 00:15:29,780 --> 00:15:30,800 LinkedIn, and then, what 733 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:31,820 did the interview process 734 00:15:31,820 --> 00:15:33,440 look like? This is a type 735 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:34,580 of interview that many 736 00:15:34,580 --> 00:15:35,420 people might not have 737 00:15:35,420 --> 00:15:37,040 gone for, an incredibly 738 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:38,720 senior position a massive 739 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:40,840 organisation responsible 740 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:42,640 for a large team. What 741 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:43,600 did that interview 742 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:44,620 process look like, start 743 00:15:44,620 --> 00:15:45,040 to finish? 744 00:15:45,220 --> 00:15:45,460 catherine olivier: So 745 00:15:45,460 --> 00:15:46,720 mine was a little bit 746 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:47,980 lopsided, because I 747 00:15:47,980 --> 00:15:49,120 started with the CRO who 748 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:49,660 would have, would 749 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:50,680 probably have been the 750 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:52,240 last one, right? So that 751 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:53,200 was, that was an 752 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:55,060 interesting one. So had a 753 00:15:55,060 --> 00:15:56,920 chat with him, spoke, 754 00:15:56,920 --> 00:15:58,060 obviously, to the to the 755 00:15:58,120 --> 00:15:59,500 recruitment team. So had 756 00:15:59,500 --> 00:16:01,440 a, had a lot of sessions 757 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:03,060 with James Corfield, who 758 00:16:03,060 --> 00:16:04,260 is our head of the TA 759 00:16:04,260 --> 00:16:05,100 team, and he's been 760 00:16:05,100 --> 00:16:06,360 great. So answering all 761 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:07,380 the questions as to, 762 00:16:07,380 --> 00:16:08,220 like, why is this role 763 00:16:08,220 --> 00:16:09,420 even here? Like, why did 764 00:16:09,420 --> 00:16:11,460 they leave? And 765 00:16:11,460 --> 00:16:12,660 understanding a little 766 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:14,220 bit better about about 767 00:16:14,220 --> 00:16:15,660 the expectations. And it 768 00:16:15,660 --> 00:16:17,580 was with God I've got to 769 00:16:17,580 --> 00:16:19,260 think back. Like, like, a 770 00:16:19,260 --> 00:16:20,300 workshopping session 771 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:23,360 with, like, some heads of 772 00:16:23,420 --> 00:16:24,980 sales. So I sat down with 773 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:26,060 with John islet, for 774 00:16:26,060 --> 00:16:27,620 instance, right the head 775 00:16:27,620 --> 00:16:28,460 of our sales 776 00:16:28,460 --> 00:16:29,660 organisation. I do know 777 00:16:29,660 --> 00:16:30,860 that the very last one 778 00:16:30,860 --> 00:16:33,020 was a an hour with the 779 00:16:33,020 --> 00:16:35,780 CEO to again talk about 780 00:16:35,780 --> 00:16:38,480 that. So I I've had 781 00:16:39,020 --> 00:16:41,320 different experiences in 782 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:42,580 going for these type of 783 00:16:42,580 --> 00:16:43,360 roles and having 784 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:45,400 interviews, having to do 785 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:47,980 your 3060, 90 786 00:16:47,980 --> 00:16:49,660 presentation, I've had to 787 00:16:49,660 --> 00:16:51,520 present a five year plan 788 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:52,960 before where they asked 789 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:54,220 me for a five year plan 790 00:16:54,220 --> 00:16:55,420 that I had to present, 791 00:16:55,420 --> 00:16:58,060 etc. That wasn't the case 792 00:16:58,420 --> 00:17:00,840 here. It was very, I 793 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:01,560 would almost say 794 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:02,700 conversational and 795 00:17:02,700 --> 00:17:04,860 strategic, and really 796 00:17:04,860 --> 00:17:06,840 seeing whether my views 797 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:07,980 and my way of working, 798 00:17:07,980 --> 00:17:10,200 etc, aligns with what 799 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:11,520 they needed. How 800 00:17:11,940 --> 00:17:12,720 Mark Ackers: helpful do 801 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:13,560 you think was the 802 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:14,700 recommendation from your 803 00:17:14,700 --> 00:17:15,540 friend straight to the 804 00:17:15,540 --> 00:17:18,240 CRO in terms of taking 805 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:20,180 your interview to more of 806 00:17:20,180 --> 00:17:21,800 a place of look, we trust 807 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:22,460 that you're a good 808 00:17:22,460 --> 00:17:23,960 candidate. Let's talk 809 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:26,060 strategy, versus dropping 810 00:17:26,060 --> 00:17:26,780 you in at the very 811 00:17:26,780 --> 00:17:27,440 beginning of the 812 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:28,340 interview process. I 813 00:17:28,340 --> 00:17:28,640 catherine olivier: think 814 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:30,500 it was hugely important. 815 00:17:30,500 --> 00:17:31,040 Mark Ackers: Here's the 816 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:32,000 thing. I know you're 817 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:33,680 going to say that, and as 818 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:34,580 did everyone that's 819 00:17:34,580 --> 00:17:35,420 listening, and it's the 820 00:17:35,420 --> 00:17:36,800 same in sales, getting 821 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:38,600 that referral into a 822 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:40,780 decision maker is just a 823 00:17:40,780 --> 00:17:42,220 game changer. But I know 824 00:17:42,220 --> 00:17:43,000 you would have seen this 825 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:43,900 to say, I appreciate you 826 00:17:43,900 --> 00:17:45,760 manage SDRs versus AES 827 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:46,840 and quota carry, but 828 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:47,860 you'll still see this. 829 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:49,300 Oh, we go after referrals 830 00:17:49,300 --> 00:17:50,800 a lot. Oh, well, perfect, 831 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:52,120 right? But what I see all 832 00:17:52,120 --> 00:17:53,140 the time from from 833 00:17:53,140 --> 00:17:54,160 sausage, they don't ask 834 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:55,480 for referrals. Like, it's 835 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:56,440 just something that 836 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:57,640 inherently, they don't do 837 00:17:57,640 --> 00:17:58,420 as often as they should 838 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:01,260 when it absolutely works 839 00:18:01,260 --> 00:18:02,100 like, you know, as a 840 00:18:02,100 --> 00:18:03,180 great example there you 841 00:18:03,180 --> 00:18:04,260 mentioned, obviously, and 842 00:18:04,260 --> 00:18:05,040 you have, like, when we 843 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:06,000 went for your resume, it 844 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:07,140 had a number of these 845 00:18:07,380 --> 00:18:09,060 roles when you are 846 00:18:09,060 --> 00:18:10,320 interviewing, how do you 847 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:11,460 prepare for for an 848 00:18:11,460 --> 00:18:12,240 interview like that? 849 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:13,200 What? What do you want to 850 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:14,580 show in those interviews? 851 00:18:14,580 --> 00:18:14,760 I 852 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:15,300 catherine olivier: think, 853 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:17,040 start at the basics and 854 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:17,880 really research the 855 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:19,140 company itself. I think 856 00:18:19,140 --> 00:18:20,780 is important. But then I 857 00:18:20,780 --> 00:18:22,340 usually try to talk to 858 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:23,420 various people on 859 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:24,620 different teams to kind 860 00:18:24,620 --> 00:18:26,300 of prepare as well, like, 861 00:18:26,300 --> 00:18:27,200 what's what's been going 862 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:29,300 well, what's not? What 863 00:18:29,300 --> 00:18:31,520 are the main discussion 864 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:32,720 points and talking points 865 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:33,680 so to say within the 866 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:35,480 organisation, and I'm 867 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:36,560 trying to link that back 868 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:37,640 to things I've seen and 869 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:38,900 done before, and how I've 870 00:18:38,900 --> 00:18:40,540 solved that, or how I see 871 00:18:40,540 --> 00:18:41,440 that you could approach 872 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:43,000 it, because I'm very much 873 00:18:43,120 --> 00:18:44,140 a believer in I don't 874 00:18:44,140 --> 00:18:45,940 want to pretend to be 875 00:18:45,940 --> 00:18:47,080 something that I'm not, 876 00:18:47,140 --> 00:18:48,220 or pretend that I know 877 00:18:48,220 --> 00:18:49,240 things that I actually 878 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:51,520 don't, is kind of a take 879 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:53,080 it or leave it approach. 880 00:18:53,140 --> 00:18:54,460 This is me. This is how I 881 00:18:54,460 --> 00:18:55,840 work. This is how I look 882 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:57,520 at things. This is how I 883 00:18:57,520 --> 00:18:58,900 would challenge things. 884 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:00,720 And if that's the way you 885 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:02,400 think you would like your 886 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:03,780 organisation to be run, 887 00:19:03,780 --> 00:19:04,920 then I think this is a 888 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:06,780 match. If you would like 889 00:19:06,780 --> 00:19:07,680 it to be completely 890 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:09,060 different, then I would 891 00:19:09,060 --> 00:19:10,020 need to go against 892 00:19:10,020 --> 00:19:11,460 everything I stand for. 893 00:19:11,460 --> 00:19:12,960 And then I rather not 894 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:13,740 talking about 895 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:14,280 Mark Ackers: the first 896 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:15,240 few weeks in that role. 897 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:16,560 Then, as I say, I'm 898 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:17,700 really keen to understand 899 00:19:17,700 --> 00:19:19,320 the mindset, right? I 900 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:21,320 know you're really strong 901 00:19:21,500 --> 00:19:22,760 leader. I've spent time 902 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:24,020 with you equally. I know 903 00:19:24,020 --> 00:19:25,340 what it can feel like to 904 00:19:25,340 --> 00:19:27,440 fill shoes from someone 905 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:30,200 else. How do you approach 906 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:31,580 those first few weeks and 907 00:19:31,580 --> 00:19:32,360 those first few 908 00:19:32,360 --> 00:19:33,800 conversations? I'm the 909 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:35,060 new boss. How do you 910 00:19:35,060 --> 00:19:35,900 approach those 911 00:19:36,020 --> 00:19:37,220 situations? Very 912 00:19:37,220 --> 00:19:37,760 catherine olivier: carefully, 913 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:39,020 but I've been very, very 914 00:19:39,020 --> 00:19:40,340 lucky with incognizance, 915 00:19:40,340 --> 00:19:42,340 because my boss, the CRO 916 00:19:42,460 --> 00:19:45,220 Rob tomcek, he gave me 917 00:19:45,220 --> 00:19:46,960 time. So instead of 918 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:48,400 giving me the team from 919 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:50,080 day one, having seven 920 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:51,340 people reporting to me, 921 00:19:51,340 --> 00:19:52,300 the whole organisation 922 00:19:52,300 --> 00:19:54,460 sit under me, he gave me 923 00:19:54,700 --> 00:19:56,080 a quarter or longer, if I 924 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:57,760 wanted to, to just 925 00:19:57,760 --> 00:19:58,840 understand the business. 926 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:00,420 So they kept. Running the 927 00:20:00,420 --> 00:20:01,260 way they were running. 928 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:02,220 They didn't change a 929 00:20:02,220 --> 00:20:03,960 thing. And I was just 930 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:05,820 there observing, talking 931 00:20:05,820 --> 00:20:07,200 to people, interviewing, 932 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:08,700 participating in 933 00:20:08,700 --> 00:20:10,740 meetings, and just taking 934 00:20:10,740 --> 00:20:13,920 notes and making a plan 935 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:15,480 at that point. Rather 936 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:16,620 than just coming in from 937 00:20:16,620 --> 00:20:17,520 day one going, Hello, 938 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:18,120 we're going to do 939 00:20:18,120 --> 00:20:19,500 everything different. I 940 00:20:19,500 --> 00:20:21,560 was very, very fortunate 941 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:22,880 to be given the chance to 942 00:20:22,940 --> 00:20:24,260 just take the time to 943 00:20:24,260 --> 00:20:25,280 understand the business 944 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:27,440 better before having to 945 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:29,480 make any decisive calls. 946 00:20:29,540 --> 00:20:30,080 Mark Ackers: I love that. 947 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:30,980 I mean, to give you a 948 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:32,480 quarter just feels like a 949 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:34,220 really well thought out 950 00:20:34,220 --> 00:20:36,500 process from cognism and 951 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:37,280 the right way to do 952 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:38,300 things. One of the 953 00:20:38,300 --> 00:20:39,140 questions I'll have for 954 00:20:39,140 --> 00:20:41,140 you and everyone has 955 00:20:41,380 --> 00:20:43,360 impostor syndrome at 956 00:20:43,360 --> 00:20:44,320 certain points in their 957 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:45,820 career and in day to day 958 00:20:45,820 --> 00:20:47,380 life. No doubt, even 959 00:20:47,380 --> 00:20:48,700 though you are well 960 00:20:48,700 --> 00:20:50,080 qualified and exceptional 961 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:51,040 candidate to hire into 962 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:51,940 this role, they would 963 00:20:51,940 --> 00:20:52,720 have been part of you 964 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:53,740 that had that level of 965 00:20:53,740 --> 00:20:54,760 imposter syndrome, new 966 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:56,560 role, new gig, as I say, 967 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:58,300 taking over. How did you 968 00:20:58,300 --> 00:20:59,560 manage that imposter 969 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:00,420 syndrome that you may 970 00:21:00,420 --> 00:21:01,980 have had taken the role I 971 00:21:01,980 --> 00:21:02,100 have 972 00:21:02,100 --> 00:21:02,220 catherine olivier: it 973 00:21:02,220 --> 00:21:03,900 every day, to be fair. So 974 00:21:03,900 --> 00:21:05,100 that doesn't really ever 975 00:21:05,100 --> 00:21:06,300 go away. I don't think, 976 00:21:06,300 --> 00:21:07,620 at least, not for not for 977 00:21:07,620 --> 00:21:08,940 me, but I think it's just 978 00:21:08,940 --> 00:21:11,280 about trusting your skill 979 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:13,080 set and going, Look, I 980 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:14,100 also have to trust the 981 00:21:14,100 --> 00:21:15,240 people that hire me that 982 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:15,900 they know what they're 983 00:21:15,900 --> 00:21:17,220 doing, and they wouldn't 984 00:21:17,220 --> 00:21:18,060 give me the role if they 985 00:21:18,060 --> 00:21:19,080 didn't see something in 986 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:20,900 me, right? So, and that's 987 00:21:20,900 --> 00:21:21,860 kind of where I'm getting 988 00:21:21,860 --> 00:21:22,760 back to, like, I'm not 989 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:23,840 pretending anything that 990 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:25,460 I'm not so I don't have 991 00:21:25,460 --> 00:21:26,960 to be fearful about, 992 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:27,680 like, keeping up a 993 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:28,940 pretence or anything like 994 00:21:28,940 --> 00:21:31,460 that, as I as I go about 995 00:21:31,460 --> 00:21:33,080 my my day to day, just 996 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:33,920 like I've told them 997 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:35,360 exactly what I know. I've 998 00:21:35,360 --> 00:21:36,620 told them how I want to 999 00:21:36,620 --> 00:21:37,460 approach it. And they 1000 00:21:37,460 --> 00:21:38,780 saw, yeah, this is a good 1001 00:21:38,780 --> 00:21:40,480 idea. So now that's what 1002 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:41,440 I'm going to be doing. So 1003 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:42,580 kind of read by staying 1004 00:21:42,580 --> 00:21:43,480 really, really close to 1005 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:44,740 myself, I think it's the 1006 00:21:44,740 --> 00:21:45,640 way to, like, try to 1007 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:47,320 minimise that imposter 1008 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:48,640 that imposter syndrome. 1009 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:49,720 But generally, it doesn't 1010 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:50,800 ever really go away. 1011 00:21:50,860 --> 00:21:51,520 Mark Ackers: I agree 1012 00:21:51,580 --> 00:21:53,140 everyone I speak to. And 1013 00:21:53,140 --> 00:21:54,220 when this comes up about 1014 00:21:54,220 --> 00:21:55,120 imposter syndrome, 1015 00:21:55,120 --> 00:21:56,380 everyone has it. And as 1016 00:21:56,380 --> 00:21:57,820 you say, near enough, if 1017 00:21:57,820 --> 00:21:58,720 not every day is near 1018 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:00,360 enough. Every day when 1019 00:22:00,360 --> 00:22:01,440 you're having those 1020 00:22:01,500 --> 00:22:02,640 moments of imposter 1021 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:03,960 syndrome, how do you deal 1022 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:05,040 with it? Do you deal with 1023 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:06,540 it in your head and by 1024 00:22:06,540 --> 00:22:07,740 yourself? Or do you speak 1025 00:22:07,740 --> 00:22:08,220 to anyone 1026 00:22:08,220 --> 00:22:08,700 catherine olivier: most 1027 00:22:08,700 --> 00:22:10,080 of the time? It's, like, 1028 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:11,100 fleeting and I can deal 1029 00:22:11,100 --> 00:22:12,060 with it in my head for by 1030 00:22:12,060 --> 00:22:13,560 very rationally going, 1031 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:14,340 No, come on. I can do 1032 00:22:14,340 --> 00:22:15,000 this. I've done this 1033 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,760 before. If it gets worse, 1034 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:18,720 and specifically, like, 1035 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:19,440 around the times that 1036 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:19,800 you're, like, 1037 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:20,600 interviewing for new 1038 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:21,800 roles, or there's like, 1039 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:23,240 massive changes happening 1040 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:24,500 in organisations that, 1041 00:22:24,500 --> 00:22:25,040 you know, oh, my 1042 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:26,060 goodness, Am I doing the 1043 00:22:26,060 --> 00:22:27,020 right thing here? I'm 1044 00:22:27,020 --> 00:22:27,800 very lucky that my 1045 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:28,580 husband's super 1046 00:22:28,580 --> 00:22:29,480 supportive. So he'll, 1047 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:30,620 he'll listen, and then 1048 00:22:30,620 --> 00:22:32,180 he'll go and be the voice 1049 00:22:32,180 --> 00:22:33,020 of reason, going like, 1050 00:22:33,020 --> 00:22:33,680 come on. You've been 1051 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:35,300 doing this for ages. You 1052 00:22:35,300 --> 00:22:36,200 can do this. This is 1053 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:37,460 fine. And something else 1054 00:22:37,460 --> 00:22:38,360 that's been super, super 1055 00:22:38,360 --> 00:22:39,440 helpful has been like a 1056 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:40,840 community, like the sales 1057 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:42,580 leaders of EMEA, where 1058 00:22:42,580 --> 00:22:44,020 there's other SDR leaders 1059 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:45,640 in similar situations, 1060 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:47,440 and I can just call them 1061 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:48,880 up and go, am I crazy? 1062 00:22:48,940 --> 00:22:49,900 I'm trying to do this, 1063 00:22:49,900 --> 00:22:51,460 like, is it just me? And 1064 00:22:51,460 --> 00:22:52,480 then you can have that, 1065 00:22:52,660 --> 00:22:53,380 you can have that 1066 00:22:53,380 --> 00:22:54,460 conversation. So that's 1067 00:22:54,460 --> 00:22:55,780 been really super over 1068 00:22:55,780 --> 00:22:56,680 the past few years as 1069 00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:56,980 well, 1070 00:22:57,040 --> 00:22:58,060 Mark Ackers: amazing. And 1071 00:22:58,300 --> 00:22:59,620 one of the things that I 1072 00:22:59,620 --> 00:23:00,780 know you now get because 1073 00:23:00,780 --> 00:23:01,740 we've started working 1074 00:23:01,740 --> 00:23:02,760 together with my sales 1075 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:04,680 coach. Is access to a 1076 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:05,940 coach here, one to one 1077 00:23:05,940 --> 00:23:07,260 coaching. But I'm 1078 00:23:07,260 --> 00:23:08,160 curious, throughout your 1079 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:09,960 career, have you ever had 1080 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:12,060 a coach or a mentor that 1081 00:23:12,120 --> 00:23:12,840 you work with? 1082 00:23:12,900 --> 00:23:13,080 catherine olivier: I've 1083 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:14,760 had a coach once before. 1084 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:16,800 They let me think back. 1085 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:17,880 So that was when I was at 1086 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:19,200 EDB. They gave like a 1087 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:19,920 certain level of 1088 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:20,900 leadership, leadership 1089 00:23:20,900 --> 00:23:23,180 coaching. So we all got 1090 00:23:23,780 --> 00:23:25,040 group sessions, and then 1091 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:26,180 some one on one sessions 1092 00:23:26,180 --> 00:23:27,320 with our personal coach. 1093 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:28,700 And that was very 1094 00:23:28,700 --> 00:23:29,840 helpful, but it was very 1095 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:31,100 much focused on how to 1096 00:23:31,100 --> 00:23:32,540 become a better leader as 1097 00:23:32,540 --> 00:23:33,620 such. And it wasn't 1098 00:23:33,620 --> 00:23:34,520 necessarily, well, it 1099 00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:35,420 sounds relevant, like 1100 00:23:35,420 --> 00:23:36,920 very personal on like the 1101 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:37,760 How to Become a Better 1102 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:38,780 you kind of thing. 1103 00:23:38,780 --> 00:23:39,200 Mark Ackers: What about 1104 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:39,860 though, throughout your 1105 00:23:39,860 --> 00:23:41,020 career? Have you had 1106 00:23:41,020 --> 00:23:42,040 someone that you've been 1107 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:43,240 able to lean on, maybe, 1108 00:23:43,420 --> 00:23:45,220 maybe less formal than a 1109 00:23:45,220 --> 00:23:46,060 coach and a coach 1110 00:23:46,060 --> 00:23:47,380 relationship, but someone 1111 00:23:47,380 --> 00:23:48,460 that's kind of taken you 1112 00:23:48,460 --> 00:23:49,360 under their wing and 1113 00:23:49,360 --> 00:23:50,320 helped you? There's been 1114 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:50,860 catherine olivier: various 1115 00:23:50,860 --> 00:23:51,760 people, I think, over the 1116 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:55,120 years, where some helped 1117 00:23:55,120 --> 00:23:55,960 more than others, some 1118 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:57,880 helped very consciously, 1119 00:23:57,880 --> 00:23:59,320 and others maybe more by 1120 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:00,660 accident. But you learn 1121 00:24:00,660 --> 00:24:01,680 from people that you work 1122 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:02,820 with. Someone who always 1123 00:24:02,820 --> 00:24:04,980 comes back in in mind is 1124 00:24:04,980 --> 00:24:06,240 a lady called Paige 1125 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:07,860 powers. I was back when I 1126 00:24:07,860 --> 00:24:08,700 worked at Extreme 1127 00:24:08,700 --> 00:24:11,160 Networks as a just an SDR 1128 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:12,360 manager, and later the 1129 00:24:12,360 --> 00:24:13,320 leader of their inside 1130 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:14,520 sales team and their SDR 1131 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:15,660 team. And she was head of 1132 00:24:15,660 --> 00:24:17,280 Global inside sales, and 1133 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:19,440 it was the first how to 1134 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:20,780 call it, like powerful 1135 00:24:20,780 --> 00:24:22,520 woman, female leader that 1136 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:24,260 I ever encountered, 1137 00:24:24,260 --> 00:24:25,040 because, like, tech 1138 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:26,000 sales, it's a lot of 1139 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:27,860 guys, right? So all the 1140 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:29,720 like, there's girl SDRs, 1141 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:30,860 but I hadn't necessarily 1142 00:24:30,860 --> 00:24:32,660 worked for a female boss 1143 00:24:32,660 --> 00:24:33,800 before, and that was a 1144 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:35,420 revelation at that point 1145 00:24:35,420 --> 00:24:36,380 in my career, in any 1146 00:24:36,380 --> 00:24:38,420 case, and she taught me 1147 00:24:38,420 --> 00:24:40,220 things like, maybe 1148 00:24:40,220 --> 00:24:40,780 consciously or 1149 00:24:40,780 --> 00:24:41,920 subconsciously, from her 1150 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:44,500 end, about like being 1151 00:24:44,500 --> 00:24:45,940 just yourself, and not 1152 00:24:45,940 --> 00:24:47,140 being afraid to just be a 1153 00:24:47,140 --> 00:24:48,040 woman, even though 1154 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:50,260 everyone else is not, and 1155 00:24:50,260 --> 00:24:51,520 just making kind of that 1156 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:52,960 your strength, rather 1157 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:54,280 than trying to pretend 1158 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:55,480 you're all masculine and 1159 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:56,800 one of the guys and stuff 1160 00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:58,540 like that. And I think 1161 00:24:58,540 --> 00:24:59,440 that was super, super 1162 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:00,600 valuable. That point, 1163 00:25:00,660 --> 00:25:01,020 Mark Ackers: Paige 1164 00:25:01,020 --> 00:25:01,920 powers. What an 1165 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:02,940 incredible name. That 1166 00:25:02,940 --> 00:25:04,080 sounds like a superhero 1167 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:05,460 name, right? So tell me a 1168 00:25:05,460 --> 00:25:06,600 bit more about Paige 1169 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:07,980 powers, then it feels 1170 00:25:07,980 --> 00:25:09,780 like she was important 1171 00:25:09,780 --> 00:25:11,580 person in the development 1172 00:25:11,580 --> 00:25:13,020 of you. You've shared 1173 00:25:13,020 --> 00:25:14,220 there that she encouraged 1174 00:25:14,220 --> 00:25:15,180 you to be who you are. 1175 00:25:15,180 --> 00:25:16,260 And I've really picked 1176 00:25:16,260 --> 00:25:17,700 that up in the interview 1177 00:25:17,700 --> 00:25:19,320 that one you're not 1178 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:20,600 afraid to say, look, this 1179 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:21,800 is who I am. These are my 1180 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:23,420 strengths. These are my 1181 00:25:23,420 --> 00:25:24,260 weaknesses or blind 1182 00:25:24,260 --> 00:25:26,000 spots. And you'll say 1183 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:27,140 that even at the risk of 1184 00:25:27,140 --> 00:25:27,920 someone saying, Well, 1185 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:28,820 maybe you're not right 1186 00:25:28,820 --> 00:25:29,660 for the job then. And 1187 00:25:29,660 --> 00:25:30,500 that comes down to my 1188 00:25:30,500 --> 00:25:31,340 second thing that I've 1189 00:25:31,340 --> 00:25:32,840 noticed is you're really 1190 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:33,560 not attached to the 1191 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:34,880 outcome. The outcome will 1192 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:36,680 be what the outcome is. I 1193 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:38,780 know who I am and what I 1194 00:25:38,780 --> 00:25:40,480 can do, and it feels like 1195 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:41,440 perhaps you first learned 1196 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:42,280 that from from Paige. 1197 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:43,060 Would that be fair? 1198 00:25:43,120 --> 00:25:43,420 catherine olivier: Yeah, 1199 00:25:43,420 --> 00:25:44,320 I think that's where it 1200 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:46,780 started Exactly. So do 1201 00:25:46,780 --> 00:25:48,040 what you think is right 1202 00:25:48,100 --> 00:25:49,720 and make people 1203 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:51,100 understand why you're 1204 00:25:51,100 --> 00:25:52,120 doing what you're doing. 1205 00:25:52,120 --> 00:25:53,680 Go to Bat for your team, 1206 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:55,900 right? Like, she always 1207 00:25:55,900 --> 00:25:57,160 threw herself up as, I 1208 00:25:57,160 --> 00:25:58,120 think she called herself 1209 00:25:58,120 --> 00:25:59,380 a mama bear or something 1210 00:25:59,380 --> 00:26:00,480 like that, where she was 1211 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:02,160 like, I protect my team 1212 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:03,180 and try to protect them 1213 00:26:03,180 --> 00:26:04,200 at all costs, and that's 1214 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:05,460 her job, and they don't 1215 00:26:05,460 --> 00:26:06,180 need to worry about 1216 00:26:06,180 --> 00:26:07,860 everything. And I really, 1217 00:26:07,860 --> 00:26:09,300 really liked that in her 1218 00:26:09,300 --> 00:26:11,160 approach of things, 1219 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:12,120 right, trying to shield 1220 00:26:12,120 --> 00:26:13,500 the team. And she was 1221 00:26:13,500 --> 00:26:16,740 always very personally 1222 00:26:16,740 --> 00:26:18,300 involved on a personal 1223 00:26:18,300 --> 00:26:19,260 level, you know what I 1224 00:26:19,260 --> 00:26:20,660 mean? Like, genuinely 1225 00:26:20,660 --> 00:26:21,680 trying to get to know 1226 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:23,420 people, and don't be 1227 00:26:23,420 --> 00:26:25,040 like, Oh, I'm I'm the big 1228 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:27,140 boss, and, you know, I 1229 00:26:27,140 --> 00:26:28,400 don't care about all 1230 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:29,900 those minions under me, 1231 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:31,280 very, very personally 1232 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:32,900 involved. And not a 1233 00:26:32,900 --> 00:26:34,580 weaker leader for it, 1234 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:35,840 right? I think even a 1235 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:36,740 stronger one, because 1236 00:26:36,740 --> 00:26:38,420 people would run through 1237 00:26:38,420 --> 00:26:39,380 fire for her. You know 1238 00:26:39,380 --> 00:26:40,480 what I mean, it's like, 1239 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:41,800 because of that kind of 1240 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:43,120 relationship, and I think 1241 00:26:43,120 --> 00:26:44,080 that kind of opened my 1242 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:45,160 eyes, like, that's how I 1243 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:46,240 would like to be when I 1244 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,220 grow up, right? Still not 1245 00:26:48,220 --> 00:26:49,660 there, but it's something 1246 00:26:49,660 --> 00:26:51,280 to something to strive 1247 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:51,520 for. 1248 00:26:51,580 --> 00:26:52,000 Mark Ackers: When you say 1249 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:52,900 you're still not there, 1250 00:26:53,020 --> 00:26:53,980 would you say that it's 1251 00:26:53,980 --> 00:26:55,300 just you being humble and 1252 00:26:55,300 --> 00:26:56,440 a little bit of imposter 1253 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:57,160 syndrome? Or are there 1254 00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:58,300 things that you genuinely 1255 00:26:58,300 --> 00:26:59,200 think you need to work 1256 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:00,100 Unknown: on? No, I always 1257 00:27:00,100 --> 00:27:01,020 have to work on things, 1258 00:27:01,020 --> 00:27:02,520 right? Absolutely. What's 1259 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:03,180 one thing that 1260 00:27:03,180 --> 00:27:03,480 Mark Ackers: you would 1261 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:05,280 like to to improve on? 1262 00:27:05,340 --> 00:27:05,700 catherine olivier: That's 1263 00:27:05,700 --> 00:27:07,920 a tricky one, but I think 1264 00:27:07,980 --> 00:27:09,420 I'm very aware of the 1265 00:27:09,420 --> 00:27:10,560 fact that I sometimes get 1266 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:12,060 really stuck in my ways, 1267 00:27:12,540 --> 00:27:13,920 like, Oh, I think this is 1268 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:14,880 the solution, and then 1269 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:15,780 I'll keep working on it 1270 00:27:15,780 --> 00:27:16,620 like forever, even if 1271 00:27:16,620 --> 00:27:17,580 it's not going anywhere. 1272 00:27:17,580 --> 00:27:18,780 And I need to be able to 1273 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:19,620 kind of what you were 1274 00:27:19,620 --> 00:27:20,480 saying, like, detach from 1275 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:21,380 the outcome and, like, 1276 00:27:21,500 --> 00:27:22,580 take a step back. Like, I 1277 00:27:22,580 --> 00:27:23,840 know this is what I have 1278 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:24,620 been working on for a 1279 00:27:24,620 --> 00:27:25,700 very long time, but it's 1280 00:27:25,700 --> 00:27:26,600 time to let it go. It's 1281 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:27,620 not going to go anywhere 1282 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:29,060 and start over or try 1283 00:27:29,060 --> 00:27:30,080 something different. And 1284 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:31,220 I think that moment of 1285 00:27:31,220 --> 00:27:33,080 letting go, I I'm still a 1286 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:35,420 bit on the late side with 1287 00:27:35,420 --> 00:27:36,740 that sometimes, what's 1288 00:27:36,740 --> 00:27:37,160 Mark Ackers: the last 1289 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:38,240 thing that you let go of? 1290 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:39,260 Because it just wasn't 1291 00:27:39,260 --> 00:27:39,680 working. As 1292 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:39,920 catherine olivier: the 1293 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:42,760 comp plan changes, right? 1294 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:43,540 Like, I know something 1295 00:27:43,540 --> 00:27:44,500 needs to change, and I 1296 00:27:44,500 --> 00:27:45,460 want to change it, but 1297 00:27:45,460 --> 00:27:46,480 eventually just need to 1298 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:48,460 go away pause, you know, 1299 00:27:49,180 --> 00:27:50,380 like, wait a little bit 1300 00:27:50,380 --> 00:27:52,240 and regroup, talk to more 1301 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:53,560 people and then try 1302 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:54,520 again. When you say talk 1303 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:55,660 to more people. Who do 1304 00:27:55,660 --> 00:27:56,440 you mean, generally, 1305 00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:57,820 within my organisation, 1306 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:00,240 so the people that are 1307 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:00,900 going to be either 1308 00:28:00,900 --> 00:28:02,280 impacted by it, or the 1309 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:03,660 people that have a very 1310 00:28:03,660 --> 00:28:04,980 better, much better 1311 00:28:04,980 --> 00:28:06,480 understanding of the 1312 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:08,100 impacts and the numbers 1313 00:28:08,100 --> 00:28:10,140 behind it, etc. So I have 1314 00:28:10,140 --> 00:28:11,280 a very close relationship 1315 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:12,660 with Rev ops and and 1316 00:28:12,660 --> 00:28:13,440 stuff like that. So I 1317 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:14,580 think that's an important 1318 00:28:14,580 --> 00:28:16,620 one. But I also run like 1319 00:28:16,620 --> 00:28:18,900 ideas past other SDR 1320 00:28:18,900 --> 00:28:19,920 leaders, like, oh, I 1321 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:21,320 would love to go, and I 1322 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:22,520 don't know, pay on this, 1323 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:23,420 and then they go, oof. 1324 00:28:23,420 --> 00:28:24,140 I'll never do that 1325 00:28:24,140 --> 00:28:25,280 because I tried it and 1326 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:26,600 didn't work, right? So 1327 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:27,680 it's really nice to have 1328 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:28,640 other people that you can 1329 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:30,140 just ask, ask things. But 1330 00:28:30,140 --> 00:28:30,920 on the other hand, you 1331 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:31,940 need to keep in mind that 1332 00:28:31,940 --> 00:28:33,080 they don't know your 1333 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:34,100 organisation and your 1334 00:28:34,100 --> 00:28:35,180 team, that the way that I 1335 00:28:35,180 --> 00:28:37,220 do and their views might 1336 00:28:37,220 --> 00:28:38,900 be skewed based on like, 1337 00:28:38,900 --> 00:28:40,120 their circumstances. So 1338 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:42,100 it's like nice to have 1339 00:28:42,100 --> 00:28:43,420 like a sounding board and 1340 00:28:43,420 --> 00:28:45,220 to kind of get maybe some 1341 00:28:45,220 --> 00:28:46,960 fresh ideas, etc, but 1342 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:48,460 then you do have to make 1343 00:28:48,460 --> 00:28:49,600 sure you can apply it 1344 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:50,440 properly in your own 1345 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:51,940 organisation. And that's 1346 00:28:51,940 --> 00:28:53,200 what I need, like the 1347 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:54,640 various bits of my team 1348 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:55,240 for and I think 1349 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:55,600 Mark Ackers: that's an 1350 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:56,440 important thing, you 1351 00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:57,400 know, when you can lean 1352 00:28:57,400 --> 00:28:59,620 on other people and ask 1353 00:28:59,620 --> 00:29:00,720 what's working for you 1354 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:02,340 and and sort of take, but 1355 00:29:02,340 --> 00:29:03,420 take back the bits that 1356 00:29:03,420 --> 00:29:04,380 you think you can apply, 1357 00:29:04,380 --> 00:29:06,120 and maybe not the bits 1358 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:07,320 that wouldn't work. But I 1359 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:08,160 love that you've got 1360 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:08,940 other people you can 1361 00:29:08,940 --> 00:29:10,080 reach out to. And again, 1362 00:29:10,140 --> 00:29:11,220 it just comes back to 1363 00:29:11,220 --> 00:29:12,180 you're not afraid to say, 1364 00:29:12,180 --> 00:29:13,200 look, I don't think I've 1365 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:14,160 got all the answers here. 1366 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:15,300 Can somebody help? And 1367 00:29:15,300 --> 00:29:16,380 even internally, where 1368 00:29:16,380 --> 00:29:17,280 sometimes people might 1369 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:18,240 not want to do that, they 1370 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:19,200 might not want to look 1371 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:20,240 weak internally. They 1372 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:21,140 might want to look like 1373 00:29:21,140 --> 00:29:21,860 they haven't got the 1374 00:29:21,860 --> 00:29:22,820 answer internally, but 1375 00:29:22,820 --> 00:29:24,560 you're just look, this is 1376 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:25,580 my strength, this bit I 1377 00:29:25,580 --> 00:29:26,660 need some help with, and 1378 00:29:26,660 --> 00:29:27,560 you're not afraid to do 1379 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:28,580 that. And I really admire 1380 00:29:28,580 --> 00:29:29,180 that. I kind 1381 00:29:29,180 --> 00:29:29,300 catherine olivier: of 1382 00:29:29,300 --> 00:29:30,260 have the same approach to 1383 00:29:30,260 --> 00:29:32,060 my my team and to my CRS, 1384 00:29:32,060 --> 00:29:33,080 right? Because I tell 1385 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:34,400 them, Look, I can sit on 1386 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:35,420 my little perch and, 1387 00:29:35,420 --> 00:29:36,920 like, make plans for you, 1388 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:38,480 and like, make rules, but 1389 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:39,860 you guys are doing it on 1390 00:29:39,860 --> 00:29:41,140 a day to day. I don't 1391 00:29:41,140 --> 00:29:42,880 know how it impacts you, 1392 00:29:42,940 --> 00:29:44,680 genuinely, hour to hour, 1393 00:29:44,740 --> 00:29:45,820 right? So if there's 1394 00:29:45,820 --> 00:29:47,260 anything that you need or 1395 00:29:47,260 --> 00:29:49,480 that I'm trying to put in 1396 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:51,220 place that you feel will 1397 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:53,320 not work, let me know. If 1398 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:54,700 you have suggestions. Let 1399 00:29:54,700 --> 00:29:55,900 me know. Right? It's been 1400 00:29:55,900 --> 00:29:57,160 a very long time since 1401 00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:59,380 I've been an SDR like on 1402 00:29:59,380 --> 00:30:01,080 a day to day. Basis, and 1403 00:30:01,260 --> 00:30:02,580 even though I think I 1404 00:30:02,580 --> 00:30:03,300 have a fairly good 1405 00:30:03,300 --> 00:30:04,500 understanding of how it's 1406 00:30:04,500 --> 00:30:05,700 all going every single 1407 00:30:05,700 --> 00:30:07,740 day, I might not have the 1408 00:30:08,100 --> 00:30:09,300 right insights in the 1409 00:30:09,300 --> 00:30:10,680 intricacies. So to say 1410 00:30:11,220 --> 00:30:13,200 right so I always say, 1411 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:13,860 Look, I don't know 1412 00:30:13,860 --> 00:30:14,940 everything. So if you're 1413 00:30:14,940 --> 00:30:15,840 feeling I'm missing 1414 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:17,100 something or I need to 1415 00:30:17,100 --> 00:30:18,780 look into things, please 1416 00:30:18,780 --> 00:30:19,800 flag it. I love that 1417 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:20,720 Mark Ackers: as a sign of 1418 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:22,100 a great leader, you know, 1419 00:30:22,100 --> 00:30:23,660 really embraces that 1420 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:25,100 feedback, of that that 1421 00:30:25,100 --> 00:30:26,480 circle of feedback and 1422 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:27,500 that feedback loop from 1423 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:29,120 their team. It may be 10 1424 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:30,200 years time, maybe five 1425 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:31,100 years time, someone in 1426 00:30:31,100 --> 00:30:32,120 your team is going to be 1427 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:33,080 on a podcast, and they're 1428 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:34,100 going to be talking about 1429 00:30:34,100 --> 00:30:35,060 their own page powers, 1430 00:30:35,060 --> 00:30:36,020 and that's going to be 1431 00:30:36,020 --> 00:30:37,160 you, because you're, 1432 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:38,840 you're leading the SDR 1433 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:41,620 managers at cognism, many 1434 00:30:41,620 --> 00:30:43,240 of whom are first time 1435 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:45,040 SDR managers themselves. 1436 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:47,200 What are they finding 1437 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:48,760 hardest right now as 1438 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:50,320 first time SDR managers? 1439 00:30:50,380 --> 00:30:50,740 Oh, 1440 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:50,980 catherine olivier: good 1441 00:30:50,980 --> 00:30:53,200 one. I think one of the 1442 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:54,340 things that is always 1443 00:30:54,340 --> 00:30:55,240 hard when you're first 1444 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:56,980 time SDR manager is that 1445 00:30:56,980 --> 00:30:58,180 you can't manage every 1446 00:30:58,180 --> 00:30:59,260 single person the same 1447 00:30:59,260 --> 00:31:00,960 way, because people are 1448 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:02,280 very different. They 1449 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:03,900 respond to different 1450 00:31:03,900 --> 00:31:05,100 things. Call them 1451 00:31:05,100 --> 00:31:06,600 triggers, or, you know, 1452 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:07,920 it's the stick, carrot, 1453 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:09,300 kind of discussion like, 1454 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:10,980 people have different 1455 00:31:10,980 --> 00:31:12,420 ambitions, different 1456 00:31:12,420 --> 00:31:13,800 things that drive them. 1457 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,680 So you can't just blanket 1458 00:31:16,740 --> 00:31:18,120 your approach to your 1459 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:19,200 team, even if it's only 1460 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:20,600 seven people, right, it's 1461 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:21,920 still very necessary that 1462 00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:23,000 you kind of figure out 1463 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:24,440 what makes your team tick 1464 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:26,060 on an individual level, 1465 00:31:26,060 --> 00:31:27,200 and then kind of adjust 1466 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:28,280 your approach for that. 1467 00:31:28,340 --> 00:31:29,600 And I think that's hard, 1468 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:31,520 because when you've been 1469 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:32,900 in SDR, your manager 1470 00:31:32,900 --> 00:31:33,860 managed you a certain 1471 00:31:33,860 --> 00:31:35,240 way, and you might assume 1472 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:35,960 that that's how they 1473 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:37,280 managed everybody, and 1474 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:38,960 that's therefore the way 1475 00:31:39,020 --> 00:31:40,660 that everybody needs to 1476 00:31:40,660 --> 00:31:41,980 be managed going forward, 1477 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:43,240 and it's again like that, 1478 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:44,980 disconnecting from, wait 1479 00:31:44,980 --> 00:31:46,720 a second, I can do things 1480 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:47,800 differently because this 1481 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:49,540 person needs different 1482 00:31:49,540 --> 00:31:50,380 inputs, different 1483 00:31:50,380 --> 00:31:51,400 outputs, different 1484 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:52,900 approaches. And that's 1485 00:31:52,900 --> 00:31:54,580 fine. That's okay, but 1486 00:31:54,580 --> 00:31:55,780 coming to that 1487 00:31:55,780 --> 00:31:56,800 conclusion, and then I 1488 00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:57,580 think effectively 1489 00:31:57,580 --> 00:31:58,540 implementing that is 1490 00:31:58,540 --> 00:32:00,300 always a learning path. I 1491 00:32:00,300 --> 00:32:00,720 think what 1492 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:01,020 Mark Ackers: you said 1493 00:32:01,020 --> 00:32:02,580 there, whilst it was so 1494 00:32:02,700 --> 00:32:04,620 obvious, is also a light 1495 00:32:04,620 --> 00:32:05,940 bulb moment, in the sense 1496 00:32:05,940 --> 00:32:07,380 of you're totally right. 1497 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:09,420 If you're managed by 1498 00:32:09,420 --> 00:32:11,460 someone, you will just 1499 00:32:11,460 --> 00:32:12,180 assume that's how they 1500 00:32:12,180 --> 00:32:14,100 manage everybody, because 1501 00:32:14,100 --> 00:32:14,820 you don't know what you 1502 00:32:14,820 --> 00:32:16,080 don't know. And I think, 1503 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:16,800 like I say, it's an 1504 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:18,120 obvious thing to say, but 1505 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:19,200 until you really say that 1506 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:20,600 out loud, when you step 1507 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:22,220 up into management, you 1508 00:32:22,220 --> 00:32:23,660 almost have this warped 1509 00:32:23,660 --> 00:32:24,800 reality of, well, this is 1510 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:26,060 how I was managed. That's 1511 00:32:26,060 --> 00:32:26,900 obviously how they 1512 00:32:26,900 --> 00:32:28,400 managed everybody. And it 1513 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:30,200 can be hard to not fall 1514 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:31,640 into that trap. As I say, 1515 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:33,080 really obvious thing, but 1516 00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:34,400 a real light bulb moment, 1517 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:35,540 I think, for many people 1518 00:32:35,540 --> 00:32:36,980 to when they're thinking 1519 00:32:36,980 --> 00:32:37,940 about stepping up into 1520 00:32:37,940 --> 00:32:39,620 management, to consider 1521 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:40,960 how are other people 1522 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:42,220 managed? And I think one 1523 00:32:42,220 --> 00:32:43,480 of the mistakes that many 1524 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:44,680 people share with me, and 1525 00:32:44,740 --> 00:32:46,060 I think you'll probably 1526 00:32:46,060 --> 00:32:47,500 say you've made this 1527 00:32:47,500 --> 00:32:48,640 mistake yourself at some 1528 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:50,740 point, I know I have, is 1529 00:32:50,740 --> 00:32:51,880 that that's why it's easy 1530 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:53,440 to try and hire people 1531 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:55,300 like you hire a team of 1532 00:32:55,300 --> 00:32:56,620 mini use because you can 1533 00:32:56,620 --> 00:32:57,700 manage them in the same 1534 00:32:57,700 --> 00:32:59,560 way. Why is that the 1535 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:00,340 wrong thing to do? 1536 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:00,720 Because 1537 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:00,840 catherine olivier: you 1538 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:02,220 should never have a team 1539 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:03,480 of all the same people, 1540 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:04,560 because then you'll never 1541 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:05,820 get any fresh ideas, 1542 00:33:05,820 --> 00:33:07,020 fresh approaches, 1543 00:33:07,020 --> 00:33:08,400 different views, etc. You 1544 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:09,420 need it specifically, 1545 00:33:09,420 --> 00:33:10,680 because what I said, 1546 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:12,480 Right? SDR, world keeps 1547 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:13,860 changing, and you need to 1548 00:33:13,860 --> 00:33:15,480 keep innovating and being 1549 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:17,400 creative, etc. And every 1550 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:19,140 if every person thinks 1551 00:33:19,140 --> 00:33:20,520 exactly the same way, 1552 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:22,100 you're gonna get down 1553 00:33:22,100 --> 00:33:23,120 through a very, very 1554 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:24,320 narrow path. How 1555 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:24,620 Mark Ackers: do you 1556 00:33:24,620 --> 00:33:26,360 ensure then that when 1557 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:27,560 you're hiring people, 1558 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:29,060 that you are hiring 1559 00:33:29,060 --> 00:33:30,140 people that are just very 1560 00:33:30,140 --> 00:33:31,220 different to you? Have 1561 00:33:31,220 --> 00:33:32,240 you got a way of doing 1562 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:32,840 that, yes 1563 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:33,020 catherine olivier: and 1564 00:33:33,020 --> 00:33:34,340 no, like in the way that 1565 00:33:34,340 --> 00:33:35,540 when we're going through 1566 00:33:35,540 --> 00:33:37,460 a hiring process, we're 1567 00:33:37,460 --> 00:33:38,600 looking for skills first 1568 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:39,740 and foremost, right? 1569 00:33:39,740 --> 00:33:40,900 We're not gonna go like, 1570 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:42,700 Oh, we need to have 1571 00:33:42,700 --> 00:33:45,100 someone who was x, not. 1572 00:33:45,100 --> 00:33:46,120 Okay, so we're going for 1573 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:47,320 skills and experience. 1574 00:33:47,980 --> 00:33:49,240 However, you eventually 1575 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:50,860 end up with a pool of, I 1576 00:33:50,860 --> 00:33:52,120 don't know, say, 10. Then 1577 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:53,140 you have two roles, and 1578 00:33:53,140 --> 00:33:53,860 you go, like, how we're 1579 00:33:53,860 --> 00:33:54,880 going to do this? And 1580 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:56,200 then it's very much about 1581 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:57,460 like, who's slightly 1582 00:33:57,460 --> 00:33:58,120 different, who's 1583 00:33:58,120 --> 00:33:59,620 exciting, who has that 1584 00:33:59,620 --> 00:34:01,740 extra gene, Sequoia, 1585 00:34:01,740 --> 00:34:02,760 right? That you go, Okay, 1586 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:03,600 this is not something 1587 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:04,500 we've seen before this. 1588 00:34:04,500 --> 00:34:05,640 This would be like an 1589 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:07,260 interesting addition. I 1590 00:34:07,260 --> 00:34:08,340 mean, we know what's 1591 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:09,360 what's successful when 1592 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:10,380 you're looking at SDRs, 1593 00:34:10,380 --> 00:34:11,520 like people have who have 1594 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:12,600 played, like, competitive 1595 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:14,340 sports or anything like, 1596 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:15,660 like those things. Yes, 1597 00:34:15,720 --> 00:34:17,340 great. SDRs, absolutely. 1598 00:34:17,340 --> 00:34:18,720 But I don't want the full 1599 00:34:18,720 --> 00:34:20,120 SDR team that were all 1600 00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:21,440 former competitive 1601 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:22,640 sportsmen, right? That 1602 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:23,780 that's another like 1603 00:34:23,780 --> 00:34:25,520 extreme on that, on that 1604 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:27,320 end. So it's nice to kind 1605 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:29,120 of mix that up a little. 1606 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:31,220 So I trust my team to go 1607 00:34:31,220 --> 00:34:33,500 through the first cycles 1608 00:34:33,500 --> 00:34:34,820 of the hiring process 1609 00:34:34,820 --> 00:34:35,720 themselves and then 1610 00:34:35,720 --> 00:34:37,580 present me with their top 1611 00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:38,780 got it top five, or 1612 00:34:38,780 --> 00:34:39,680 something like that. I 1613 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:40,600 always do the final 1614 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:42,340 round, and then I pick 1615 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:43,600 and make a case, right? 1616 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:44,620 I'm not the final 1617 00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:45,700 decision maker on that 1618 00:34:45,700 --> 00:34:47,500 and as such, but I try to 1619 00:34:47,500 --> 00:34:49,540 explain to to the team 1620 00:34:49,540 --> 00:34:50,680 like, who I think would 1621 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:51,820 be a valuable addition 1622 00:34:51,820 --> 00:34:53,020 based on maybe those 1623 00:34:53,260 --> 00:34:55,720 softer type of criteria. 1624 00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:56,379 Mark Ackers: Hey, sales 1625 00:34:56,379 --> 00:34:57,519 leaders, do you want a 1626 00:34:57,519 --> 00:34:58,659 cost effective way to 1627 00:34:58,659 --> 00:34:59,919 develop your team skills? 1628 00:34:59,999 --> 00:35:01,079 And help them smash their 1629 00:35:01,079 --> 00:35:02,519 quotas. My sales coach 1630 00:35:02,519 --> 00:35:04,079 offers team memberships 1631 00:35:04,319 --> 00:35:05,759 for just 20 pounds per 1632 00:35:05,759 --> 00:35:07,259 month per individual plus 1633 00:35:07,259 --> 00:35:08,579 VAT. This will give your 1634 00:35:08,579 --> 00:35:10,139 reps access to small 1635 00:35:10,199 --> 00:35:11,639 group tactical coaching 1636 00:35:11,639 --> 00:35:12,899 sessions, daily power 1637 00:35:12,899 --> 00:35:14,039 hours and exclusive 1638 00:35:14,039 --> 00:35:15,659 events, all led by world 1639 00:35:15,659 --> 00:35:16,919 class sales coaches with 1640 00:35:16,919 --> 00:35:18,659 over 25 group sessions to 1641 00:35:18,659 --> 00:35:19,739 choose from monthly, 1642 00:35:19,979 --> 00:35:20,779 there's something for 1643 00:35:20,839 --> 00:35:22,039 every role. We have 1644 00:35:22,039 --> 00:35:23,419 sessions for SDRs all the 1645 00:35:23,419 --> 00:35:25,099 way out to CROs. Empower 1646 00:35:25,099 --> 00:35:26,779 your team to perform to 1647 00:35:26,779 --> 00:35:28,339 their best visit my sales 1648 00:35:28,339 --> 00:35:29,599 coach.com. To get 1649 00:35:29,599 --> 00:35:30,859 started. The link is in 1650 00:35:30,859 --> 00:35:31,819 the description. Have to 1651 00:35:31,819 --> 00:35:33,619 ask, have you got in the 1652 00:35:33,619 --> 00:35:34,459 these final stage 1653 00:35:34,459 --> 00:35:36,019 interviews? Have you got 1654 00:35:36,019 --> 00:35:37,099 a killer question that 1655 00:35:37,099 --> 00:35:38,539 you love to ask, and it 1656 00:35:38,539 --> 00:35:40,339 can make or break the 1657 00:35:40,339 --> 00:35:41,499 success in in the 1658 00:35:41,499 --> 00:35:42,519 interview, not 1659 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:43,840 catherine olivier: really 1660 00:35:44,740 --> 00:35:46,600 genuinely. I'm trying to 1661 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:47,620 think my starting 1662 00:35:47,620 --> 00:35:48,520 question is always 1663 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:49,900 really, really simple, 1664 00:35:49,900 --> 00:35:50,980 because I found people 1665 00:35:50,980 --> 00:35:51,880 are for one reason, or 1666 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:52,780 they're very nervous when 1667 00:35:52,780 --> 00:35:53,680 they get to talk to me, 1668 00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:54,700 so I need to, kind of, 1669 00:35:54,700 --> 00:35:56,020 like, ease them into it, 1670 00:35:56,020 --> 00:35:57,340 right? And my first 1671 00:35:57,340 --> 00:35:58,420 question is like, why did 1672 00:35:58,420 --> 00:36:00,480 you apply like, and then 1673 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:02,400 they do have to put it 1674 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:03,720 all on the table. And I 1675 00:36:03,720 --> 00:36:05,160 think some people go, 1676 00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:06,000 Well, I just needed a 1677 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:06,900 job. And then it's like, 1678 00:36:06,900 --> 00:36:08,520 no, bye. But it's the 1679 00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:10,200 ones that that come with, 1680 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:12,000 like, a well thought out 1681 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:12,960 answer, which I would 1682 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:14,340 like to think they'd have 1683 00:36:14,340 --> 00:36:15,240 after they've gone 1684 00:36:15,240 --> 00:36:16,560 through like two other or 1685 00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:17,760 three other rounds by 1686 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:18,900 then, right? They should 1687 00:36:18,900 --> 00:36:20,840 have an answer that kind 1688 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:23,660 of summarises everything 1689 00:36:23,660 --> 00:36:24,620 they've learned about 1690 00:36:24,620 --> 00:36:26,540 themselves and about us 1691 00:36:26,660 --> 00:36:28,160 in the roles before, in 1692 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:29,060 the rounds before 1693 00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:29,660 Mark Ackers: I just did 1694 00:36:29,660 --> 00:36:31,160 the job, is an 1695 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:32,420 incredulous answer to be 1696 00:36:32,420 --> 00:36:33,380 giving at that stage of 1697 00:36:33,380 --> 00:36:34,280 an interview. One of the 1698 00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:35,780 challenges that that we 1699 00:36:35,780 --> 00:36:37,340 have in sales is that 1700 00:36:37,340 --> 00:36:38,720 first time managers are 1701 00:36:38,720 --> 00:36:41,800 almost always former 1702 00:36:41,860 --> 00:36:43,000 great reps that have been 1703 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:43,960 promoted, like top 1704 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:44,860 performers, that get 1705 00:36:44,860 --> 00:36:46,360 promoted and for logical 1706 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:47,560 reasons, in many ways. 1707 00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:48,340 You know, we don't want 1708 00:36:48,340 --> 00:36:49,300 to lose them. We want to 1709 00:36:49,300 --> 00:36:50,140 retain them. They're 1710 00:36:50,140 --> 00:36:51,220 ambitious. Hence, they've 1711 00:36:51,220 --> 00:36:52,420 been top performers. But 1712 00:36:52,420 --> 00:36:53,500 being a top performer 1713 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:54,880 doesn't mean you're going 1714 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:55,900 to be a great manager to 1715 00:36:56,140 --> 00:36:57,520 start with. Now we could 1716 00:36:57,520 --> 00:36:58,900 talk about that, but 1717 00:36:59,020 --> 00:36:59,680 here's the other 1718 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:00,720 challenge that I think 1719 00:37:00,720 --> 00:37:02,100 rarely get spoken about, 1720 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:04,140 and I've struggled with 1721 00:37:04,140 --> 00:37:05,880 this as as many, many 1722 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:06,780 other people that have 1723 00:37:06,780 --> 00:37:08,220 had a first time manager 1724 00:37:08,220 --> 00:37:09,960 role. How do you go from 1725 00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:11,400 being a friend to a 1726 00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:12,360 manager that's 1727 00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:12,960 catherine olivier: so 1728 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:16,020 hard, it is so hard, I 1729 00:37:16,020 --> 00:37:16,920 think people don't 1730 00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:18,360 realise how tricky that 1731 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:19,920 is when they get into it. 1732 00:37:19,980 --> 00:37:21,920 It's a reason that you 1733 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:22,940 have to be very, very 1734 00:37:22,940 --> 00:37:24,440 careful who you pick to 1735 00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:25,760 promote into a leadership 1736 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:26,720 position if they were 1737 00:37:26,720 --> 00:37:28,280 very much part of the SDR 1738 00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:29,720 click, so to say, right 1739 00:37:29,720 --> 00:37:31,520 before, and that's why 1740 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:33,920 very often, I would very 1741 00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:35,360 much gravitate to those 1742 00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:36,620 people that are already 1743 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:38,780 almost naturally just 1744 00:37:38,780 --> 00:37:40,600 mentoring and Helping the 1745 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:41,560 rest of their team 1746 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:43,000 already rather than maybe 1747 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:44,380 being the the a list 1748 00:37:44,380 --> 00:37:46,540 superstar 100 or 50 plus 1749 00:37:46,540 --> 00:37:48,700 percent. SDR, those are 1750 00:37:48,700 --> 00:37:49,780 not necessarily always 1751 00:37:49,780 --> 00:37:50,500 the ones that are the 1752 00:37:50,500 --> 00:37:51,400 most helpful, because 1753 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:52,480 they're very much focused 1754 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:53,560 on their own success, 1755 00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:54,520 right, and doing the 1756 00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:55,240 right thing. And fair 1757 00:37:55,240 --> 00:37:55,960 enough, right? That's 1758 00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:57,340 okay, but it's those ones 1759 00:37:57,340 --> 00:37:58,840 that are doing well, but 1760 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:00,300 are then also taking time 1761 00:38:00,300 --> 00:38:01,500 out to sit down with the 1762 00:38:01,500 --> 00:38:03,600 others, or, like, sharing 1763 00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:05,400 their their experiences, 1764 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:06,840 or their their tips and 1765 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:08,880 tricks, etc. I think that 1766 00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:10,080 is way more valuable when 1767 00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:10,980 you're, like, deciding 1768 00:38:10,980 --> 00:38:12,780 who to like, promote 1769 00:38:12,780 --> 00:38:13,680 into, like, a leadership 1770 00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:14,760 role. When they are 1771 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:15,780 interviewing for that, 1772 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:17,820 it's like very much. Do 1773 00:38:17,820 --> 00:38:18,780 you realise what this 1774 00:38:18,780 --> 00:38:20,040 means? Right? Because 1775 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:21,380 it's going to be hard, 1776 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:22,580 and you'll have to do 1777 00:38:22,580 --> 00:38:23,960 that from the beginning. 1778 00:38:24,020 --> 00:38:25,580 You can't ease your way 1779 00:38:25,580 --> 00:38:26,600 into it. You can't go, 1780 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:28,160 Oh, my first month of 1781 00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:29,540 being the manager, I'm 1782 00:38:29,540 --> 00:38:30,440 still very much your 1783 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:32,120 friend. But then I need 1784 00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:33,020 to start becoming a 1785 00:38:33,020 --> 00:38:34,160 little bit more harsh on 1786 00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:35,480 you the month after, and 1787 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:36,380 then the month after 1788 00:38:36,380 --> 00:38:37,460 that, I'm really gonna, 1789 00:38:37,460 --> 00:38:38,660 like, crack down on 1790 00:38:38,660 --> 00:38:40,240 things. Doesn't work. You 1791 00:38:40,240 --> 00:38:42,040 have to set expectations 1792 00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:43,480 from day one that they 1793 00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:44,680 go, Okay, now it's 1794 00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:45,820 different, and it doesn't 1795 00:38:45,820 --> 00:38:47,080 mean we can't go out and 1796 00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:48,280 have a drink after work 1797 00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:50,860 again, but it is going to 1798 00:38:50,860 --> 00:38:53,020 just be slightly more 1799 00:38:53,020 --> 00:38:54,280 distant, I think. And I 1800 00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:55,600 think a lot of people 1801 00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:57,460 don't realise how lonely 1802 00:38:57,520 --> 00:38:59,020 leadership can be, right? 1803 00:38:59,020 --> 00:39:00,160 Because there's fewer and 1804 00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:02,160 fewer of you, the higher 1805 00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:03,600 up you go. It's very much 1806 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:05,700 like the team versus the 1807 00:39:05,700 --> 00:39:06,960 managers, sometimes, 1808 00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:08,280 right, depending on what 1809 00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:09,540 the circumstances are. 1810 00:39:09,540 --> 00:39:11,340 And then you need to keep 1811 00:39:11,340 --> 00:39:12,360 that distance, and you 1812 00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:13,680 need to be able to, like, 1813 00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:15,180 step away and not take it 1814 00:39:15,180 --> 00:39:16,860 personally and just go 1815 00:39:16,860 --> 00:39:17,940 like they're doing their 1816 00:39:17,940 --> 00:39:19,380 thing, and I have to do 1817 00:39:19,380 --> 00:39:21,620 mine. And it is not 1818 00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:22,880 always what you might 1819 00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:25,400 want to do, but that is 1820 00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:27,920 the maturity I think SDR 1821 00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:29,180 leaders need to have if 1822 00:39:29,180 --> 00:39:30,380 you want to be successful 1823 00:39:30,380 --> 00:39:31,220 manager your former 1824 00:39:31,220 --> 00:39:32,300 peers, rather than 1825 00:39:32,300 --> 00:39:32,840 Mark Ackers: make it just 1826 00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:34,040 about cognizant, because 1827 00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:35,060 then you might be talking 1828 00:39:35,060 --> 00:39:35,960 about people that work 1829 00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:36,920 there today. If you look 1830 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:38,060 back across all the 1831 00:39:38,060 --> 00:39:38,780 people that you've 1832 00:39:38,780 --> 00:39:39,620 managed across your 1833 00:39:39,620 --> 00:39:40,540 career, what are some of 1834 00:39:40,540 --> 00:39:41,620 the mistakes you've seen 1835 00:39:41,620 --> 00:39:42,700 people make, where 1836 00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:43,720 they've stepped into a 1837 00:39:43,720 --> 00:39:45,160 manager role and they've 1838 00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:46,420 got that wrong, they've 1839 00:39:46,420 --> 00:39:47,500 acted like a friend and 1840 00:39:47,500 --> 00:39:48,340 not a manager. Have you 1841 00:39:48,340 --> 00:39:49,360 got some some maybe some 1842 00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:50,380 funny stories or some 1843 00:39:50,380 --> 00:39:51,460 observations that you can 1844 00:39:51,460 --> 00:39:51,640 share, 1845 00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:51,880 catherine olivier: don't 1846 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:53,500 date them? That's That's 1847 00:39:53,500 --> 00:39:54,760 step one. That's a given, 1848 00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:55,960 though I think it is 1849 00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:58,060 where, when an SDR has 1850 00:39:58,060 --> 00:39:59,440 like to put it like in a 1851 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:00,720 generator. Generalisation 1852 00:40:00,720 --> 00:40:02,160 has like a grievance, and 1853 00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:03,180 they go, Oh, this isn't 1854 00:40:03,180 --> 00:40:04,560 right, and I feel hard 1855 00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:06,420 done by and it's unfair. 1856 00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:08,580 And then instinctively, 1857 00:40:08,580 --> 00:40:09,720 immediately the manager 1858 00:40:09,720 --> 00:40:10,320 going, Yeah, you're 1859 00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:11,700 right. Like, absolutely, 1860 00:40:11,700 --> 00:40:12,840 I feel Yeah, right, 1861 00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:14,280 because they were an SDR 1862 00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:15,540 before, and they know the 1863 00:40:15,540 --> 00:40:16,680 pain. They feel it. They 1864 00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:18,300 know they understand it 1865 00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:20,100 without taking a beat and 1866 00:40:20,100 --> 00:40:21,500 having a moment ago. Wait 1867 00:40:21,500 --> 00:40:22,940 a second, but what of 1868 00:40:22,940 --> 00:40:24,440 like the view of the 1869 00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:25,700 company and of the wider 1870 00:40:25,700 --> 00:40:26,960 team, and actually the 1871 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:28,340 overarching rules, and 1872 00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:29,540 without immediately 1873 00:40:29,540 --> 00:40:31,160 agreeing to whatever the 1874 00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:32,420 SDR is feeling and like 1875 00:40:32,420 --> 00:40:33,320 kind of making it a 1876 00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:34,460 bigger thing, just going 1877 00:40:34,460 --> 00:40:35,720 like, I'll look into it. 1878 00:40:35,720 --> 00:40:37,100 Let's look at this. Let's 1879 00:40:37,100 --> 00:40:38,420 take a step back. And I 1880 00:40:38,420 --> 00:40:39,740 need to explain to you 1881 00:40:39,740 --> 00:40:41,560 why. Yeah, it might suck 1882 00:40:41,620 --> 00:40:43,360 as an SDR, but from a 1883 00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:44,500 team perspective, it is 1884 00:40:44,500 --> 00:40:45,400 the right thing to do. 1885 00:40:45,460 --> 00:40:45,700 I'll 1886 00:40:45,700 --> 00:40:46,180 Mark Ackers: avoid the 1887 00:40:46,180 --> 00:40:47,260 can of worms around don't 1888 00:40:47,260 --> 00:40:48,220 date them. Because, yeah, 1889 00:40:48,220 --> 00:40:49,180 I could imagine there's 1890 00:40:49,180 --> 00:40:50,200 some funny stories there. 1891 00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:51,220 But are there any other 1892 00:40:51,220 --> 00:40:52,180 stories of where they've 1893 00:40:52,180 --> 00:40:53,260 just got that line wrong? 1894 00:40:53,260 --> 00:40:54,220 Because that could be 1895 00:40:54,220 --> 00:40:55,060 quite humorous. 1896 00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:55,300 catherine olivier: I 1897 00:40:55,300 --> 00:40:56,560 think it is about 1898 00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:58,060 specifically after work, 1899 00:40:58,060 --> 00:41:00,660 getting too close. So not 1900 00:41:00,660 --> 00:41:01,980 the dating part, but just 1901 00:41:01,980 --> 00:41:02,820 the like being, being 1902 00:41:02,820 --> 00:41:04,380 very, very close friends. 1903 00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:05,460 If you're being very 1904 00:41:05,460 --> 00:41:06,420 close friends with, like, 1905 00:41:06,420 --> 00:41:08,160 one or two on a team, and 1906 00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:09,120 your team is bigger than 1907 00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:10,860 that, you'll always have 1908 00:41:10,860 --> 00:41:12,060 the perception of 1909 00:41:12,060 --> 00:41:13,560 favouritism, right? Like, 1910 00:41:13,620 --> 00:41:14,400 Oh yeah, but you'll do 1911 00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:16,020 that because you tennis 1912 00:41:16,020 --> 00:41:16,920 with each other, or 1913 00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:17,760 because you, you know 1914 00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:18,780 what I mean, like, there, 1915 00:41:18,780 --> 00:41:19,800 there's always that kind 1916 00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:20,840 of thing, even though it 1917 00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:21,680 might not even be the 1918 00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:23,240 case, right? But I think 1919 00:41:23,540 --> 00:41:24,800 being very aware of, 1920 00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:26,360 like, the perception of, 1921 00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:28,220 yeah, putting the one SDR 1922 00:41:28,220 --> 00:41:29,420 above the others because 1923 00:41:29,420 --> 00:41:30,860 you happen to get on a 1924 00:41:30,860 --> 00:41:32,780 lot better is a very 1925 00:41:32,780 --> 00:41:34,640 scary thing to have. 1926 00:41:34,700 --> 00:41:35,540 Mark Ackers: So that's 1927 00:41:35,540 --> 00:41:36,500 really interesting, 1928 00:41:36,860 --> 00:41:37,640 right? That that 1929 00:41:37,820 --> 00:41:39,500 perception of favouritism 1930 00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:42,220 socialising, one of the 1931 00:41:42,220 --> 00:41:43,960 things that I've always 1932 00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:45,220 seen people struggle with 1933 00:41:45,220 --> 00:41:46,840 is is socials after work? 1934 00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:47,560 What do you think a 1935 00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:48,520 manager should do? Should 1936 00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:49,420 they because there's 1937 00:41:49,420 --> 00:41:50,320 options, right? They 1938 00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:51,340 don't go at all. They 1939 00:41:51,340 --> 00:41:53,200 never go, or they go but 1940 00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:54,280 they leave early, or they 1941 00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:55,420 go and they're the last 1942 00:41:55,420 --> 00:41:56,380 ones there because they 1943 00:41:56,380 --> 00:41:57,820 want to stay out late. 1944 00:41:57,820 --> 00:41:59,380 What? How do you get 1945 00:41:59,380 --> 00:42:00,900 those situations right? I 1946 00:42:00,900 --> 00:42:01,200 think 1947 00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:01,320 catherine olivier: it 1948 00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:03,540 does depend on your 1949 00:42:03,540 --> 00:42:05,580 personality and so on. I 1950 00:42:05,580 --> 00:42:06,960 would never necessarily 1951 00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:08,160 tell an STR manager, oh, 1952 00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:08,880 you're not allowed to 1953 00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:10,080 stay until the end, 1954 00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:11,400 right? Because if they're 1955 00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:12,300 the type of person that 1956 00:42:12,300 --> 00:42:13,560 really enjoys that, then 1957 00:42:13,620 --> 00:42:14,580 who am I to tell them? 1958 00:42:14,580 --> 00:42:16,860 No, they should stay very 1959 00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:20,540 sober. So I think, I 1960 00:42:20,540 --> 00:42:21,440 think you need to keep 1961 00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:22,280 your wits about you, 1962 00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:23,300 because you need to make 1963 00:42:23,300 --> 00:42:24,800 sure that you keep that 1964 00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:26,300 professional relationship 1965 00:42:26,300 --> 00:42:28,040 right. Okay, so it's, 1966 00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:29,000 it's very much like you 1967 00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:29,960 can be there and you can 1968 00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:31,100 have a good time, but you 1969 00:42:31,100 --> 00:42:31,940 need to make sure that 1970 00:42:31,940 --> 00:42:32,840 you don't say the wrong 1971 00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:34,640 things, that you don't 1972 00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:35,600 start blabbing about 1973 00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:36,440 things they have no 1974 00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:37,880 concern about, and that 1975 00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:38,720 you're not that person 1976 00:42:38,720 --> 00:42:39,620 that everyone then is 1977 00:42:39,620 --> 00:42:40,720 talking about because you 1978 00:42:40,720 --> 00:42:41,500 were, I don't know, 1979 00:42:41,500 --> 00:42:42,820 dancing on the table or 1980 00:42:42,820 --> 00:42:43,780 fell off the bar or 1981 00:42:43,780 --> 00:42:44,680 anything like that, 1982 00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:45,880 right? Because, again, 1983 00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:47,020 you have to maintain that 1984 00:42:47,020 --> 00:42:49,300 sense of professionalism 1985 00:42:49,300 --> 00:42:51,100 and and so on. And I 1986 00:42:51,100 --> 00:42:52,960 think as a leader, that's 1987 00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:53,680 something you have to 1988 00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:54,460 make sure, like, I don't 1989 00:42:54,460 --> 00:42:55,420 care how you maintain 1990 00:42:55,420 --> 00:42:56,200 that if it means you 1991 00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:57,400 don't drink at all, or if 1992 00:42:57,400 --> 00:42:58,360 you have to leave early 1993 00:42:58,360 --> 00:42:59,140 because, you know, you 1994 00:42:59,140 --> 00:43:00,360 can't contain yourself, 1995 00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:01,860 you know, that's fine, 1996 00:43:01,860 --> 00:43:02,700 and that's a goal you'll 1997 00:43:02,700 --> 00:43:03,660 have to make yourself. 1998 00:43:03,660 --> 00:43:04,320 Mark Ackers: I think that 1999 00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:05,160 could be the hard thing. 2000 00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:06,480 You know, well, just last 2001 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:08,160 week, I was an SDR, I was 2002 00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:09,300 their friend, and now a 2003 00:43:09,300 --> 00:43:10,140 week later, it's 2004 00:43:10,140 --> 00:43:11,220 someone's birthday or 2005 00:43:11,220 --> 00:43:13,140 someone's leaving do, oh, 2006 00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:14,520 I've got to be completely 2007 00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:15,780 different. And, yeah, I 2008 00:43:15,780 --> 00:43:17,220 mean, I'm sure we can 2009 00:43:17,220 --> 00:43:18,720 exchange many a story. 2010 00:43:18,720 --> 00:43:19,920 There people on the 2011 00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:20,820 tables of one of the 2012 00:43:20,820 --> 00:43:22,280 bars. Let's, um, let's 2013 00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:23,780 talk about how you're 2014 00:43:23,780 --> 00:43:25,040 managing in a hybrid 2015 00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:26,840 world. So, yeah, I was in 2016 00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:27,860 your offices a couple 2017 00:43:27,860 --> 00:43:29,000 weeks ago. We sat down, 2018 00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:30,140 and we're talking about, 2019 00:43:30,140 --> 00:43:31,820 you know, our coaching of 2020 00:43:31,820 --> 00:43:33,260 your SDR managers. And, 2021 00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:34,760 you know, I asked you 2022 00:43:34,820 --> 00:43:35,840 about your commute to 2023 00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:36,740 work, and what was it 2024 00:43:36,740 --> 00:43:37,760 again? Was it? Was it 2025 00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:39,440 three hours? No, no, it's 2026 00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:40,600 just over two. I mean, 2027 00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:41,920 that's still horrendous. 2028 00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:43,300 So a two hour commute 2029 00:43:43,300 --> 00:43:44,320 each way, and you know, 2030 00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:45,220 you're, you're a mother, 2031 00:43:45,220 --> 00:43:46,420 you've got a young boy, 2032 00:43:46,420 --> 00:43:47,500 haven't you? And I asked, 2033 00:43:47,500 --> 00:43:48,340 well, how often do that? 2034 00:43:48,340 --> 00:43:49,000 You said, two days a 2035 00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:50,920 week. And I'm curious 2036 00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:52,480 how, and I know you'll 2037 00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:53,380 have a great answer for 2038 00:43:53,380 --> 00:43:55,180 this, but that's, that's 2039 00:43:55,180 --> 00:43:56,560 the new norm, right? We 2040 00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:57,940 live in that world where, 2041 00:43:58,360 --> 00:43:59,500 if we want to attract the 2042 00:43:59,500 --> 00:44:00,360 best talent, which 2043 00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:01,500 obviously cognizant. Do 2044 00:44:01,740 --> 00:44:03,060 you embrace that? And 2045 00:44:03,060 --> 00:44:04,020 that's what your one you 2046 00:44:04,020 --> 00:44:04,980 know, you live two hours 2047 00:44:04,980 --> 00:44:05,820 away. Why would you want 2048 00:44:05,820 --> 00:44:06,900 to do that every day, 2049 00:44:06,900 --> 00:44:08,460 four hours lost when, as 2050 00:44:08,460 --> 00:44:09,180 I say, you've got a 2051 00:44:09,180 --> 00:44:11,520 family. How do you in a 2052 00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:12,840 remote world, stay close 2053 00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:13,560 to your team? I 2054 00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:13,860 catherine olivier: think 2055 00:44:13,860 --> 00:44:15,120 it's I've grown used to 2056 00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:16,020 it a little bit in the 2057 00:44:16,020 --> 00:44:17,220 sense that I've had fully 2058 00:44:17,220 --> 00:44:18,660 remote teams before. I 2059 00:44:18,660 --> 00:44:19,800 also managed all the way 2060 00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:21,560 through COVID. So that's 2061 00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:22,880 that's helping with the 2062 00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:24,020 experience as well, as 2063 00:44:24,020 --> 00:44:26,660 you can imagine. But I 2064 00:44:26,660 --> 00:44:27,740 think the main thing is 2065 00:44:27,740 --> 00:44:28,400 just managing 2066 00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:30,440 expectations, right? So 2067 00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:31,400 when it comes to like, 2068 00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:32,540 how often I go to the 2069 00:44:32,540 --> 00:44:34,100 office, I was very clear 2070 00:44:34,100 --> 00:44:35,360 whilst interviewing, 2071 00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:36,320 like, there's no way I 2072 00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:37,280 can do this five days a 2073 00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:38,360 week. It's just not 2074 00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:39,500 happening. If that's what 2075 00:44:39,500 --> 00:44:41,200 you want, then that's not 2076 00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:42,340 me, right? Just from a 2077 00:44:42,340 --> 00:44:43,480 practical perspective. I 2078 00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:44,560 love being in the office, 2079 00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:45,940 by the way. I love being 2080 00:44:45,940 --> 00:44:47,260 around people and just 2081 00:44:47,260 --> 00:44:48,520 being able to walk over 2082 00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:49,720 and just having a chat, 2083 00:44:49,720 --> 00:44:51,760 etc. But yeah, at the 2084 00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:52,600 moment, that's just 2085 00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:53,380 logistically not 2086 00:44:53,380 --> 00:44:55,360 possible. So what I do 2087 00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:56,620 make sure of is that the 2088 00:44:56,620 --> 00:44:58,300 time that I am there, I'm 2089 00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:00,480 like, available. So. So I 2090 00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:03,180 tend to make sure I block 2091 00:45:03,180 --> 00:45:05,760 out time that I'm not in 2092 00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:06,900 meetings and I'm just 2093 00:45:06,900 --> 00:45:08,340 there, because what's the 2094 00:45:08,340 --> 00:45:09,480 point of me coming in and 2095 00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:10,440 then going, Oh, I've got 2096 00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:11,460 back to back meetings for 2097 00:45:11,460 --> 00:45:12,600 five hours. I'm going to 2098 00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:13,620 sit in this meeting room 2099 00:45:13,620 --> 00:45:14,460 and I'll come out when 2100 00:45:14,460 --> 00:45:15,540 I'm done right then 2101 00:45:15,540 --> 00:45:16,740 there's genuinely no 2102 00:45:16,740 --> 00:45:18,240 difference for me just 2103 00:45:18,240 --> 00:45:19,920 being at home or being in 2104 00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:20,900 a meeting room in the 2105 00:45:20,900 --> 00:45:22,040 office, trying to make 2106 00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:24,320 sure that I block my day 2107 00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:25,940 so that I either have, 2108 00:45:25,940 --> 00:45:26,780 like, the one on ones 2109 00:45:26,780 --> 00:45:27,980 with the older managers, 2110 00:45:27,980 --> 00:45:29,060 right, that I can do that 2111 00:45:29,060 --> 00:45:30,560 in person, I have 2112 00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:32,180 separate moments that I'm 2113 00:45:32,180 --> 00:45:33,560 just there for SDRs to 2114 00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:35,180 come and have a chat, or 2115 00:45:35,180 --> 00:45:36,500 for me to just walk over 2116 00:45:36,500 --> 00:45:37,940 to to sales or to 2117 00:45:37,940 --> 00:45:39,200 operations or marketing 2118 00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:40,360 and just go and have a 2119 00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:42,040 have a catch up, and have 2120 00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:43,240 that personal connection, 2121 00:45:43,240 --> 00:45:44,020 and then all the other 2122 00:45:44,020 --> 00:45:45,220 hard work I can then do 2123 00:45:45,220 --> 00:45:46,180 when I get home. I 2124 00:45:46,180 --> 00:45:47,020 Mark Ackers: think that 2125 00:45:47,140 --> 00:45:48,100 must be hard for you as 2126 00:45:48,100 --> 00:45:48,940 well, though, because 2127 00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:51,040 you're coming in to serve 2128 00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:52,180 your team. But equally, 2129 00:45:52,180 --> 00:45:53,020 when you're going to be 2130 00:45:53,020 --> 00:45:53,920 in the office, I know 2131 00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:55,180 other senior leaders. 2132 00:45:55,180 --> 00:45:56,380 We're great. Catherine's 2133 00:45:56,380 --> 00:45:57,400 in, we can get some time 2134 00:45:57,400 --> 00:45:58,480 with her, and you'll have 2135 00:45:58,480 --> 00:45:59,440 to push back on that, 2136 00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:01,020 because again, you know, 2137 00:46:01,140 --> 00:46:02,640 what's very clear is how 2138 00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:03,540 you put your team first, 2139 00:46:03,540 --> 00:46:04,500 but that must be very 2140 00:46:04,500 --> 00:46:05,520 difficult for you to try 2141 00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:06,660 and juggle both sides of 2142 00:46:06,660 --> 00:46:07,200 that. Yeah, 2143 00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:07,560 catherine olivier: it is. 2144 00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:08,820 So it's, it's the ever 2145 00:46:08,820 --> 00:46:10,200 evolving state of my 2146 00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:11,520 calendar. And anyone you 2147 00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:12,600 talk to will say that my 2148 00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:13,800 calendar is absolutely 2149 00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:15,600 insane, but I try to just 2150 00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:16,980 juggle it as much as 2151 00:46:16,980 --> 00:46:18,480 possible, and even if it 2152 00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:20,720 means I can go and walk 2153 00:46:20,720 --> 00:46:22,160 to go and grab some lunch 2154 00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:23,060 with a chunk of the team, 2155 00:46:23,060 --> 00:46:23,900 you know what I mean, and 2156 00:46:23,900 --> 00:46:24,860 just have, like, a light 2157 00:46:24,860 --> 00:46:25,880 hearted chat and get to 2158 00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:26,720 know them a little bit 2159 00:46:26,720 --> 00:46:27,560 better. That for me, is 2160 00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:28,520 super valuable. 2161 00:46:28,580 --> 00:46:29,120 Mark Ackers: Speaking of 2162 00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:30,200 going for a walk for 2163 00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:31,880 lunch, you and I walked 2164 00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:33,380 over to Borough Market. 2165 00:46:33,620 --> 00:46:34,220 Have you been 2166 00:46:34,220 --> 00:46:35,420 Unknown: back since? Yes, 2167 00:46:35,420 --> 00:46:36,680 like many times. Have 2168 00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:37,820 you? Have you discovered 2169 00:46:37,820 --> 00:46:38,780 anything new? Well, we 2170 00:46:38,780 --> 00:46:39,920 had a great Spanish 2171 00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:42,040 sandwich last week. This 2172 00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:42,880 was amazing. 2173 00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:44,260 Mark Ackers: I saw these 2174 00:46:44,260 --> 00:46:45,460 strawberries and 2175 00:46:45,460 --> 00:46:46,840 chocolate at Borough 2176 00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:47,800 Market. Yes, they're too 2177 00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:48,700 messy to walk with, 2178 00:46:48,700 --> 00:46:49,540 though. Oh, okay. Well, 2179 00:46:49,540 --> 00:46:50,980 next time I want to, I 2180 00:46:50,980 --> 00:46:51,820 want to try those. You 2181 00:46:51,820 --> 00:46:52,900 have to take me there. 2182 00:46:52,900 --> 00:46:54,760 Um, speaking of juggling, 2183 00:46:55,060 --> 00:46:56,620 right? So juggling Canada 2184 00:46:56,680 --> 00:46:58,300 and whatnot, let's get 2185 00:46:58,300 --> 00:47:00,600 into you as the coach and 2186 00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:01,620 mentor there, but, but 2187 00:47:01,620 --> 00:47:02,700 also a mother, and it's 2188 00:47:02,700 --> 00:47:03,840 very pertinent for me. 2189 00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:05,100 My, I've got two boys, 2190 00:47:05,100 --> 00:47:06,300 but my, my wife, just 2191 00:47:06,300 --> 00:47:07,980 returned back to work two 2192 00:47:07,980 --> 00:47:10,320 days ago after a year off 2193 00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:11,580 for maternity leave, and 2194 00:47:11,580 --> 00:47:13,080 our youngest has started 2195 00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:14,460 nursery. So it's very 2196 00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:15,660 pertinent to me, and I'm 2197 00:47:15,660 --> 00:47:16,560 very conscious of it. 2198 00:47:16,860 --> 00:47:18,120 You're a leader and a 2199 00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:19,260 parent. How do you 2200 00:47:19,260 --> 00:47:20,460 balance the intensity of 2201 00:47:20,460 --> 00:47:21,800 both military 2202 00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:22,580 catherine olivier: precision, 2203 00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:25,040 I would say so it's, it's 2204 00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:26,480 a regime, right? Almost 2205 00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:27,980 like my husband and I 2206 00:47:27,980 --> 00:47:30,020 have like the like school 2207 00:47:30,020 --> 00:47:31,460 drop off, school pickup, 2208 00:47:31,460 --> 00:47:32,720 like he does the one I do 2209 00:47:32,720 --> 00:47:33,800 the other. The beginning 2210 00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:35,120 of the week. We make sure 2211 00:47:35,180 --> 00:47:36,620 we know who is, who does 2212 00:47:36,620 --> 00:47:38,780 what on which day and and 2213 00:47:38,780 --> 00:47:39,680 whether we need to change 2214 00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:40,780 it because of meetings or 2215 00:47:40,780 --> 00:47:42,100 events or anyone being 2216 00:47:42,100 --> 00:47:43,120 out of the country and 2217 00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:44,620 stuff like that. It's 2218 00:47:44,620 --> 00:47:45,820 having a school where I 2219 00:47:45,820 --> 00:47:46,900 can genuinely have him 2220 00:47:46,900 --> 00:47:48,220 from eight in the morning 2221 00:47:48,220 --> 00:47:49,600 until five or six in the 2222 00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:50,920 afternoon, so I can have 2223 00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:52,840 a full day in in between. 2224 00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:53,740 And he's used to that, 2225 00:47:53,740 --> 00:47:54,760 right? He's been there 2226 00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:56,140 since he was, like, six 2227 00:47:56,140 --> 00:47:57,760 months. So so he doesn't 2228 00:47:57,760 --> 00:47:58,480 know any better, and 2229 00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:00,240 loves it. But that gives 2230 00:48:00,240 --> 00:48:02,580 us the space right to to 2231 00:48:02,580 --> 00:48:04,140 plan our days around it. 2232 00:48:04,140 --> 00:48:05,400 And I think for me, it's 2233 00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:06,420 being ruthless with, 2234 00:48:06,420 --> 00:48:07,380 like, blocking those 2235 00:48:07,380 --> 00:48:09,000 moments out. So like, I 2236 00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:10,560 I'm, at the moment, in 2237 00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:11,220 charge of all the 2238 00:48:11,220 --> 00:48:12,300 pickups, so I don't drop 2239 00:48:12,300 --> 00:48:13,380 off, I only pick up, and 2240 00:48:13,380 --> 00:48:14,220 that is blocked in my 2241 00:48:14,220 --> 00:48:15,300 calendar. And I can be on 2242 00:48:15,300 --> 00:48:16,440 calls, because I'll be in 2243 00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:17,940 the car, so I can speak 2244 00:48:17,940 --> 00:48:20,180 on my hand, hands free 2245 00:48:20,180 --> 00:48:21,320 setup, but I can't look 2246 00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:22,220 at slides, so it's 2247 00:48:22,220 --> 00:48:23,180 specifically in my 2248 00:48:23,180 --> 00:48:24,260 calendar. If you want to 2249 00:48:24,260 --> 00:48:25,640 talk to me now, it's a 2250 00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:27,260 chat, and it's not like I 2251 00:48:27,260 --> 00:48:28,340 need to check out any 2252 00:48:28,340 --> 00:48:29,720 graphs or anything like 2253 00:48:29,720 --> 00:48:30,980 that. So doing that, and 2254 00:48:30,980 --> 00:48:33,440 then having an hour after 2255 00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:34,760 where I can spend time 2256 00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:36,200 with my child to, like, 2257 00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:37,280 talk through his day, 2258 00:48:37,340 --> 00:48:38,480 feed him, bathe him, and 2259 00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:40,520 all of that, and then I 2260 00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:41,440 can be back on calls 2261 00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:42,280 again, right? That's, 2262 00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:43,060 that's fine, but it's 2263 00:48:43,060 --> 00:48:44,920 really about being very, 2264 00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:46,240 very, I think, again, 2265 00:48:46,240 --> 00:48:47,620 ruthless in like, No, I 2266 00:48:47,620 --> 00:48:48,460 can't do this because 2267 00:48:48,460 --> 00:48:49,660 this is my time with my 2268 00:48:49,660 --> 00:48:51,220 family. And once he's in 2269 00:48:51,220 --> 00:48:53,440 bed, you know, all bets 2270 00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:54,400 are off, I'm back. That's 2271 00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:54,640 fine, 2272 00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:55,060 Mark Ackers: but that's 2273 00:48:55,060 --> 00:48:56,200 the time of your husband, 2274 00:48:56,260 --> 00:48:56,680 yeah, but he 2275 00:48:56,680 --> 00:48:56,860 catherine olivier: has 2276 00:48:56,860 --> 00:48:57,940 the same he works very 2277 00:48:57,940 --> 00:48:59,140 much American hours as 2278 00:48:59,140 --> 00:49:00,780 well, so he works later, 2279 00:49:00,780 --> 00:49:01,860 late as well, which is 2280 00:49:01,860 --> 00:49:02,760 why he can do the drop 2281 00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:03,780 off in the morning. So, 2282 00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:04,920 yeah, it's the it's to 2283 00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:06,480 juggle. So so to say, 2284 00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:07,860 yeah, do we get loads and 2285 00:49:07,860 --> 00:49:09,420 loads of time together in 2286 00:49:09,420 --> 00:49:10,500 the evenings? Probably 2287 00:49:10,500 --> 00:49:11,640 not, but, like, we make 2288 00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:12,480 up for that over the 2289 00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:14,040 weekends. I don't work on 2290 00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:14,940 the weekends at all. 2291 00:49:15,060 --> 00:49:15,480 Mark Ackers: Good, so I'm 2292 00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:16,380 glad you have that 2293 00:49:16,380 --> 00:49:18,180 boundary. And this next 2294 00:49:18,180 --> 00:49:19,140 question comes from a 2295 00:49:19,140 --> 00:49:20,960 parent that my first born 2296 00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:22,160 was in nursery, eight 2297 00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:23,600 till six, five days a 2298 00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:24,920 week. They went to school 2299 00:49:25,220 --> 00:49:26,240 and it was after school 2300 00:49:26,240 --> 00:49:27,560 club every night of the 2301 00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:29,000 week. Now, got a baby 2302 00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:29,900 that's just started 2303 00:49:29,900 --> 00:49:30,980 nursery. So this comes 2304 00:49:30,980 --> 00:49:32,060 from a place of a parent 2305 00:49:32,060 --> 00:49:33,080 that's done exactly the 2306 00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:34,820 same. But I also know the 2307 00:49:34,820 --> 00:49:37,340 guilt that my wife has 2308 00:49:37,700 --> 00:49:39,140 balancing her career and 2309 00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:40,480 and I feel that too, but 2310 00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:41,380 I feel that that sits 2311 00:49:41,380 --> 00:49:42,460 heavier with her as the 2312 00:49:42,460 --> 00:49:43,720 mother, and I'm just, I'm 2313 00:49:43,720 --> 00:49:44,620 just wondering, you know, 2314 00:49:44,620 --> 00:49:45,880 we tell ourselves every 2315 00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:46,840 day, this is the right 2316 00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:47,740 thing. This is what's 2317 00:49:47,740 --> 00:49:48,820 best for our children. 2318 00:49:48,820 --> 00:49:49,600 This is the right thing. 2319 00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:51,220 But I'd love to hear from 2320 00:49:51,220 --> 00:49:52,540 you as the as the mother, 2321 00:49:52,540 --> 00:49:53,500 and there'll be loads of 2322 00:49:53,500 --> 00:49:54,520 other mothers that listen 2323 00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:55,480 to this, that have their 2324 00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:57,040 kids in after school, 2325 00:49:57,040 --> 00:49:58,420 clubs, breakfast clubs. 2326 00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:00,420 How do you and. And Gil 2327 00:50:00,420 --> 00:50:01,020 is the wrong word, 2328 00:50:01,020 --> 00:50:01,860 because I don't believe 2329 00:50:01,860 --> 00:50:02,640 you should have it, but I 2330 00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:03,900 know it sits with us as 2331 00:50:03,900 --> 00:50:05,100 parents. How do you deal 2332 00:50:05,100 --> 00:50:05,520 with that 2333 00:50:05,580 --> 00:50:05,820 catherine olivier: as 2334 00:50:05,820 --> 00:50:07,320 much as possible? Again, 2335 00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:10,020 by rationalising it out 2336 00:50:10,020 --> 00:50:12,060 going like one, he 2337 00:50:12,060 --> 00:50:12,900 doesn't know any better, 2338 00:50:12,900 --> 00:50:13,740 and he's very happy 2339 00:50:13,740 --> 00:50:14,880 child, so it doesn't seem 2340 00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:15,960 to doing any harm in him 2341 00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:18,000 at the moment. Two, I 2342 00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:19,680 also know I'm a much 2343 00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:22,220 nicer person or better 2344 00:50:22,220 --> 00:50:23,720 mom. I think if I work, 2345 00:50:23,780 --> 00:50:24,680 because I noticed that 2346 00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:25,640 when I'm on maternity 2347 00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:26,960 leave I was miserable, 2348 00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:28,040 that might just be me. 2349 00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:28,940 There's a lot of people 2350 00:50:28,940 --> 00:50:30,140 who love it, right? I 2351 00:50:30,140 --> 00:50:31,160 couldn't wait to go back 2352 00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:32,360 to work because I really, 2353 00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:33,920 really missed it, right? 2354 00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:35,360 So I know that unless I'm 2355 00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:37,100 working, I'm not a very 2356 00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:38,420 happy person to be 2357 00:50:38,420 --> 00:50:39,800 around. So it's better 2358 00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:41,080 for him that I'm doing 2359 00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:42,040 what I'm doing doesn't 2360 00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:42,940 make it any easier, 2361 00:50:42,940 --> 00:50:44,800 though. I mean, I've 2362 00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:46,360 travelled to, like, I had 2363 00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:47,740 to do a presentation in 2364 00:50:47,740 --> 00:50:49,180 in Las Vegas, and I was 2365 00:50:49,180 --> 00:50:50,740 like, on on the verge of 2366 00:50:50,740 --> 00:50:51,880 getting on that plane, 2367 00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:53,500 and then my husband calls 2368 00:50:53,500 --> 00:50:54,580 saying I'm at a GP 2369 00:50:54,580 --> 00:50:55,420 because he's sick. And 2370 00:50:55,420 --> 00:50:56,140 then it's like, that 2371 00:50:56,140 --> 00:50:57,100 moment where you go like, 2372 00:50:57,100 --> 00:50:58,000 Okay, what do I do? Do I 2373 00:50:58,000 --> 00:50:59,560 now not get on this plane 2374 00:50:59,620 --> 00:51:00,780 knowing that there's like 2375 00:51:00,780 --> 00:51:01,920 1000 people waiting for 2376 00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:02,460 me to do that 2377 00:51:02,460 --> 00:51:04,020 presentation, or do I 2378 00:51:04,020 --> 00:51:05,220 trust him to deal with 2379 00:51:05,220 --> 00:51:06,420 it, and then kind of say, 2380 00:51:06,420 --> 00:51:07,260 like, let's see, let's 2381 00:51:07,260 --> 00:51:08,100 see what happens. And 2382 00:51:08,100 --> 00:51:09,000 that's the choice I made, 2383 00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:09,900 because it wasn't 2384 00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:11,520 ridiculously urgent or 2385 00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:12,780 severe at that point, at 2386 00:51:12,780 --> 00:51:13,500 least that's what I 2387 00:51:13,500 --> 00:51:14,820 thought. Went to America. 2388 00:51:14,820 --> 00:51:15,720 I got there and it was 2389 00:51:15,720 --> 00:51:17,880 tonsillitis. So he was a 2390 00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:19,440 very unhappy baby for 2391 00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:20,420 that week. My poor 2392 00:51:20,420 --> 00:51:22,340 husband was like, lack of 2393 00:51:22,340 --> 00:51:23,540 sleep for five nights, I 2394 00:51:23,540 --> 00:51:24,740 think so he wasn't very 2395 00:51:24,740 --> 00:51:25,940 happy. But that was then, 2396 00:51:25,940 --> 00:51:26,900 that is then the balance 2397 00:51:26,900 --> 00:51:28,100 right for like, I'm the 2398 00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:29,240 I'm the leader of the 2399 00:51:29,240 --> 00:51:30,380 organisation that is 2400 00:51:30,380 --> 00:51:31,940 expected to go there and 2401 00:51:31,940 --> 00:51:33,740 do this. Do I trust my 2402 00:51:33,740 --> 00:51:34,760 partner to have my back 2403 00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:35,720 and to deal with this? 2404 00:51:35,720 --> 00:51:36,800 Did I, like, literally, 2405 00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:37,700 every day think, Oh no, I 2406 00:51:37,700 --> 00:51:38,600 need to get on a plane 2407 00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:40,040 back home. Yeah, pretty 2408 00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:41,740 much. So I cut it short 2409 00:51:41,740 --> 00:51:43,720 and went home. But I had, 2410 00:51:43,720 --> 00:51:44,620 I had to go at that 2411 00:51:44,620 --> 00:51:45,640 point, at least that was 2412 00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:46,540 the call that I made, and 2413 00:51:46,540 --> 00:51:47,440 other people might make a 2414 00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:48,460 different call, right? 2415 00:51:48,460 --> 00:51:49,960 And it might also be like 2416 00:51:50,260 --> 00:51:51,700 circumstance or anything 2417 00:51:51,700 --> 00:51:52,900 like that at that point, 2418 00:51:52,900 --> 00:51:54,400 but it's never easy. 2419 00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:54,760 First 2420 00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:55,360 Mark Ackers: of all, you 2421 00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:56,080 made the right call, 2422 00:51:56,140 --> 00:51:57,640 right? You, You are the 2423 00:51:57,640 --> 00:51:59,200 best person to make that 2424 00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:01,260 call and judge. So you 2425 00:52:01,260 --> 00:52:02,100 made the right call 100% 2426 00:52:02,940 --> 00:52:04,020 and I can just so relate 2427 00:52:04,020 --> 00:52:05,040 in a number of ways. I 2428 00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:06,060 I've been at the train 2429 00:52:06,060 --> 00:52:07,980 station, wife's not well, 2430 00:52:07,980 --> 00:52:09,180 child's not well and and 2431 00:52:09,180 --> 00:52:10,080 I appreciate like dad 2432 00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:11,160 guilt doesn't get spoken 2433 00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:12,060 about as much, but had 2434 00:52:12,060 --> 00:52:13,260 that same thing of, do I 2435 00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:14,520 get on this train or not? 2436 00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:15,960 I've got to deliver a 2437 00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:18,360 talk at an exhibition or 2438 00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:19,380 show, etc. I think what 2439 00:52:19,380 --> 00:52:20,280 you've said, though, is 2440 00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:21,980 just so relatable. And I 2441 00:52:21,980 --> 00:52:22,940 think so many people are 2442 00:52:23,180 --> 00:52:24,020 gonna smile when 2443 00:52:24,020 --> 00:52:24,980 listening to that. And 2444 00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:26,600 literally, last night in 2445 00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:27,680 the kitchen, talking to 2446 00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:29,000 my wife, day two back at 2447 00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:31,220 work, and she says, I 2448 00:52:31,220 --> 00:52:32,120 think I'm a better mom 2449 00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:34,040 already. I feel like I've 2450 00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:36,080 got more patience for my 2451 00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:37,760 for my little boy. You 2452 00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:38,720 know, he's quite clingy 2453 00:52:38,720 --> 00:52:39,680 because he's just come 2454 00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:40,760 back from his second dad 2455 00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:41,980 nursery, but I feel like 2456 00:52:42,100 --> 00:52:43,420 I'm here for him because 2457 00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:44,620 I've been at work. My 2458 00:52:44,620 --> 00:52:46,180 mind's been stimulated. 2459 00:52:46,420 --> 00:52:47,440 I'm really enjoying being 2460 00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:49,060 back. I'm gonna be a 2461 00:52:49,060 --> 00:52:50,500 better mom going forward. 2462 00:52:50,500 --> 00:52:51,220 And yeah, my wife 2463 00:52:51,220 --> 00:52:52,120 definitely enjoyed a 2464 00:52:52,120 --> 00:52:53,200 limited paternity leave, 2465 00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:55,000 but part of it sucked. 2466 00:52:55,060 --> 00:52:56,380 Charlie was unwell. She 2467 00:52:56,380 --> 00:52:57,400 was unwell, or a friend 2468 00:52:57,400 --> 00:52:58,600 last minute dropped out 2469 00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:00,160 because their baby needed 2470 00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:01,440 a nap, and it can be a 2471 00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:02,940 really lonely place, but 2472 00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:04,320 yeah, it's, it's great to 2473 00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:05,640 hear how you deal with 2474 00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:07,320 and again, these are 2475 00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:08,700 unfair words, but it's 2476 00:53:08,700 --> 00:53:09,600 what is called that, that 2477 00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:11,340 mum Gill and I was really 2478 00:53:11,340 --> 00:53:13,320 conscious to get into 2479 00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:15,000 your mind of someone with 2480 00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:16,920 such a demanding job, how 2481 00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:18,000 they deal with that, with 2482 00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:19,140 one hell of a commute as 2483 00:53:19,140 --> 00:53:20,540 well. And I really 2484 00:53:20,540 --> 00:53:21,680 enjoyed that part of the 2485 00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:23,000 conversation, I think 2486 00:53:23,300 --> 00:53:24,260 coming towards the end, 2487 00:53:24,260 --> 00:53:25,220 because, again, you 2488 00:53:25,220 --> 00:53:26,180 mentioned how busy your 2489 00:53:26,180 --> 00:53:27,500 calendar is. I know we're 2490 00:53:27,500 --> 00:53:28,640 so fortunate to have your 2491 00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:31,280 time today. Let's try to 2492 00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:34,580 wrap this up. What's one 2493 00:53:34,580 --> 00:53:36,500 thing you wish every SDR 2494 00:53:36,500 --> 00:53:37,700 manager would start doing 2495 00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:38,360 various 2496 00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:39,020 catherine olivier: things? 2497 00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:40,040 First thing that comes up 2498 00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:41,560 is like, just be yourself 2499 00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:43,180 and trust your trust your 2500 00:53:43,180 --> 00:53:44,500 gut when it comes to, 2501 00:53:44,500 --> 00:53:45,700 like, dealing with your 2502 00:53:45,700 --> 00:53:47,620 team and ask for advice 2503 00:53:47,620 --> 00:53:49,180 and then make, make 2504 00:53:49,180 --> 00:53:50,740 something. Tailor, make 2505 00:53:50,740 --> 00:53:52,540 something for your group, 2506 00:53:52,780 --> 00:53:54,460 rather than try to fit in 2507 00:53:54,460 --> 00:53:55,600 the mould that been set 2508 00:53:55,600 --> 00:53:56,740 for you. Too often, I 2509 00:53:56,740 --> 00:53:57,820 just see people doing 2510 00:53:57,820 --> 00:53:58,660 what everyone's been 2511 00:53:58,660 --> 00:54:00,960 doing, never questioning 2512 00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:03,960 processes, setups, etc, 2513 00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:05,160 that are available to 2514 00:54:05,160 --> 00:54:06,960 them to go. Well, I know 2515 00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:08,220 this is available, but do 2516 00:54:08,220 --> 00:54:09,300 I like this? Do I even 2517 00:54:09,300 --> 00:54:10,980 want this right? Does it 2518 00:54:10,980 --> 00:54:12,480 make sense for me and for 2519 00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:14,520 my team? And I think that 2520 00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:16,620 just trying to fit the 2521 00:54:16,620 --> 00:54:17,700 mould and then not 2522 00:54:17,700 --> 00:54:19,140 succeeding is way worse 2523 00:54:19,140 --> 00:54:19,920 than just trying to 2524 00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:21,560 suggest other ways of 2525 00:54:21,560 --> 00:54:22,640 doing things. I 2526 00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:23,420 Mark Ackers: suppose one 2527 00:54:23,420 --> 00:54:24,320 of the things that your 2528 00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:25,340 work on then, and you've 2529 00:54:25,340 --> 00:54:26,360 spoke to me about before, 2530 00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:27,080 is giving them the 2531 00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:28,040 confidence to do that 2532 00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:29,000 flip the question, What's 2533 00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:30,680 one thing you wish SDR 2534 00:54:30,680 --> 00:54:31,640 managers would stop 2535 00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:32,180 doing? Well, 2536 00:54:32,180 --> 00:54:32,480 catherine olivier: one 2537 00:54:32,480 --> 00:54:33,320 thing is definitely 2538 00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:35,060 pushing for inputs rather 2539 00:54:35,060 --> 00:54:36,080 than caring about the 2540 00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:37,640 outcomes. I think there's 2541 00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:39,200 still way too many SDR 2542 00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:40,220 leaders out there, 2543 00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:42,220 despite all evidence to 2544 00:54:42,220 --> 00:54:43,240 the contrary, who are, 2545 00:54:43,240 --> 00:54:44,440 like, very proud, like, 2546 00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:45,820 Oh my God, my team sent 2547 00:54:45,940 --> 00:54:47,680 20,000 emails this week. 2548 00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:48,880 It was a great week. And 2549 00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:50,500 you go, really, was it 2550 00:54:50,500 --> 00:54:51,760 though? Like, how many 2551 00:54:51,760 --> 00:54:53,200 came back positive? What 2552 00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:54,280 did you book from that? 2553 00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:54,940 You know, where they're 2554 00:54:54,940 --> 00:54:56,260 like, Oh yeah, my team. 2555 00:54:56,260 --> 00:54:56,860 They were, they were, 2556 00:54:56,980 --> 00:54:58,180 they were on fire. They 2557 00:54:58,180 --> 00:54:59,680 all made like, 300 calls 2558 00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:00,900 today. It's like, Yeah, 2559 00:55:00,900 --> 00:55:02,400 but was that good? Did 2560 00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:03,900 they get anything from 2561 00:55:03,900 --> 00:55:05,640 that, right? So, so I 2562 00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:06,960 think a lot of people 2563 00:55:07,020 --> 00:55:08,760 hide behind vanity 2564 00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:09,780 metrics, if it makes 2565 00:55:09,780 --> 00:55:10,920 sense, right? We've been 2566 00:55:10,920 --> 00:55:12,840 very busy putting loads 2567 00:55:13,260 --> 00:55:14,580 and and look at all the 2568 00:55:14,580 --> 00:55:15,780 numbers that we're that 2569 00:55:15,780 --> 00:55:16,860 we're throwing at it 2570 00:55:17,220 --> 00:55:18,540 without then actually 2571 00:55:18,540 --> 00:55:20,300 showing what gets out of 2572 00:55:20,300 --> 00:55:22,880 that. So care about the 2573 00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:24,800 outcomes. First dashboard 2574 00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:25,460 Mark Ackers: managers. 2575 00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:26,780 The easiest thing to do 2576 00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:28,580 is to build a dashboard 2577 00:55:28,580 --> 00:55:30,320 with loads of widgets and 2578 00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:31,820 gives you numbers. The 2579 00:55:31,820 --> 00:55:33,440 hard thing to do, sit 2580 00:55:33,560 --> 00:55:34,760 look at the emails, 2581 00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:36,200 listen to the calls, 2582 00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:38,060 check the responses and 2583 00:55:38,060 --> 00:55:39,080 the quality, because that 2584 00:55:39,080 --> 00:55:40,480 takes time, and I think 2585 00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:41,800 it's such a true point. 2586 00:55:41,800 --> 00:55:42,580 Here's the thing that's 2587 00:55:42,580 --> 00:55:43,540 been a problem the whole 2588 00:55:43,540 --> 00:55:45,460 time I've known the world 2589 00:55:45,460 --> 00:55:46,540 of sales and sales 2590 00:55:46,540 --> 00:55:47,860 dashboard managers. And I 2591 00:55:47,860 --> 00:55:48,880 think it's great that you 2592 00:55:48,880 --> 00:55:49,720 know, you mentioned some 2593 00:55:49,720 --> 00:55:50,560 tools earlier on, tools 2594 00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:51,820 out there that that help 2595 00:55:51,820 --> 00:55:53,320 you get better insight 2596 00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:54,340 into into what's going 2597 00:55:54,340 --> 00:55:55,000 on. Catherine, I have 2598 00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:55,900 loved our time together 2599 00:55:55,900 --> 00:55:56,680 this. This has been a 2600 00:55:56,680 --> 00:55:57,520 great episode. I feel 2601 00:55:57,520 --> 00:55:58,420 like we've gone into so 2602 00:55:58,420 --> 00:55:59,380 many different little 2603 00:55:59,380 --> 00:56:00,600 pockets of areas that 2604 00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:01,620 I've really enjoyed. I 2605 00:56:01,620 --> 00:56:02,640 just want to say thank 2606 00:56:02,640 --> 00:56:04,080 you for coming on telling 2607 00:56:04,080 --> 00:56:05,400 us how you went from 2608 00:56:05,400 --> 00:56:06,420 being crap at sales to 2609 00:56:06,420 --> 00:56:07,800 the incredible leader you 2610 00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:09,120 are at cognism today. 2611 00:56:09,420 --> 00:56:10,680 Delighted that we get to 2612 00:56:10,740 --> 00:56:11,580 work together as 2613 00:56:11,580 --> 00:56:12,720 customers of each other, 2614 00:56:12,720 --> 00:56:13,740 and want to thank you for 2615 00:56:13,740 --> 00:56:14,700 coming on the podcast. 2616 00:56:14,700 --> 00:56:15,600 And I'll come down to 2617 00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:16,560 your offices again soon, 2618 00:56:16,560 --> 00:56:17,400 and we'll go and check 2619 00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:18,360 out those strawberries at 2620 00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:19,200 Borough Market. Thanks 2621 00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:20,240 for coming on. It was a 2622 00:56:20,240 --> 00:56:21,200 pleasure. Take part. You.