Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for joining us.
Welcome to Live Free, Ride Free.
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So now let's jump in.
Welcome back to Live Free, ride Free.
My guest today is Eric Robertson, who was a family lawyer, a read into
that divorce read into that warring family, civil war within families,
frequently, sadly, and has now become a family therapist in Austin.
Kind of drawing on that experience from the trenches of trying to resolve
conflict rather than exacerbate conflict, and has now taken that into
work specifically in the male domain.
We've had a feminist movement over the last century, but we haven't
really had any equivalent movement for males, and I think we're seeing the.
Results of that in both my generation of males and the younger
generations of males as well.
There is a, there is a, a sort of disorientation perhaps, I think
is the easiest way to put it.
So I'm really intrigued to have Eric come and give us his insights
over a lifetime of working in the field of conflict resolution.
So if you've, if you've been through a divorce, if you've gone
through a divorce, if you're going through a divorce, listen up.
If you are a, a male who feels, what's my place?
How, how am I even relevant these days?
Listen up.
Eric has a lot to say on these things.
So, Eric, thank you for coming on.
Can you just give us a bit of a bio on, you know, who you are and
Eric Robertson: how you've arrived
at
Rupert Isaacson: this point?
Eric Robertson: Well, I've, I've made a securous route to where I am today.
I started out years ago thinking I wanted to be a psychologist.
I was in a graduate program working toward a PhD, and I was married at the time
and my wife got accepted to law school.
So I took my master's in psychology at that point and moved with her to Austin,
Texas so she could go to law school.
I used to hang around at the law school with her thinking, well,
you know, this is pretty good gig.
Maybe I ought to try this.
So right after she finished, I went to law school, and from day one
after I got my license, I started practicing divorce work and family
law work, and did that for 33 years.
And there was something about the conflict and everything that's going
on in a divorce that at some point made me rethink where I was headed.
And made me think about the, what had taken me into
psychology in the first place.
So I went back to school and, and got another master's degree in clinical
mental health counseling and am now practicing as a licensed professional
counselor associate in Austin, Texas with a focus on doing work with men and
some marriage and family counseling.
You know, seeing how people act in divorces was really eye-opening to me.
As you can imagine in your listeners, probably can imagine men and women go
through that prop a process differently.
And what I saw was pretty normal from my perspective with
regards to women, but with men.
They weren't doing a very good job going through it.
They weren't expressing the emotion that women did at the process,
and it really made me think about what's going on with men.
And that kinda led to my interest in, in doing, doing the kind of
work that I, I do now with men.
And I wanna share with your listeners some facts that may surprise them
or, or may, they may not, if they're, they're going through this kind of
process or if I've lived some of this.
But as anybody that's watched the news knows, boys and men are experiencing
higher levels of loneliness and mental health risks than ever before.
Some of these facts come from the American Institute of Boys and Men.
But 15% of young men have recently reported not having a close friend.
That's a fivefold increase from what it was in 1990.
Now, when I grew up and when you grew up, we probably had mates
and friends that we were close to, and we developed friendships.
That's not happening now.
And there's, you know, there's a number of reasons we can talk about
but that, that, that doesn't happen.
And, and the question is, why is that important as we look at what's going
on with, with men, and the reason it's important is that men are four times
more likely to die by suicide than women.
That, and when I learned that that's a, I thought that's a pretty astounding fact.
In, in 2023, it was reported that 80% of suicides were men, and
that men were far less likely to seek any kind of help for that.
Than, than women are.
And you think about that.
So in 2023, it's reported that 39,000 men died from suicide.
In the US worldwide that number was 535,000.
That's an astounding number and it shows what's going on in our society with men.
Loneliness and isolation may seem sad to some people, but their health risks
young men often feel disconnected from their community and emotional.
They have no emotional support.
And that contributes to anxiety and depression and all sorts
of other mental health issues.
So, and I wanted to know why is it that men don't get out there
and get the help they need?
And I think there's, a number of reasons for that.
Statistically, 67% of teenage boys between the ages of 15 and 17 reported struggling
with something emotional, but didn't feel they needed any professional help.
70% didn't even know what a mental health professional was.
So there's a lack of education in our society, in American society especially
about what to do when, when you're having mental health issues when it comes to men.
We don't, we don't, you know, we, we, we recognize that in women,
but we don't recognize that in men.
A lot of it's because men show up differently than women do.
When there's mental health issues society, societal messages play into that.
The Man up, men don't cry.
Work through it.
Just muscle through it.
Those are, those are the messages that, that I got growing up.
And I I suspect you did too, Rupert.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
Eric Robertson: I, and did, didn't help.
Didn't help.
Rupert Isaacson: Why?
Eric Robertson: The other thing It's
Rupert Isaacson: okay.
Go ahead.
Yeah,
Eric Robertson: yeah.
The other thing is, it was surprising to me as, as I went into this new
line of work, is that at least in this country, mental health professionals
are overwhelmingly female dominated.
Ma men make up a minority of, of the practitioners, psychologists,
psychiatrists, therapists, counselors I think something like 26% of mental
health professionals currently are men.
26%.
And I don't know about you, but the likelihood that, that I'm
gonna go in and lay out everything that's going bad in my life to a.
Another female is probably not attractive to a lot of men.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Question.
What is the reason why many of these men or younger men don't even know
what a mental health professional is?
That's surprising to me because it's so much a part of the
conversation on social media.
Social media is all about mental health, right?
Eric Robertson: Right.
Rupert Isaacson: Everyone talks about their mental health.
Given that there's that exposure, how does that, how does that knowledge gap happen?
Eric Robertson: Well, I think there's a couple reasons for that.
I think the traditionally
men have been.
Trained not to think of about problems that they have that might require a
mental health professional so they don't learn about that sort of thing.
I think that is changing.
You're right in, in social media.
That's a, that's a big deal.
And it's, it's changing somewhat, but I think that the, the messages that,
that go out in social media about mental health issues and where to
find help for many, many years were oriented towards, towards females.
And as you mentioned earlier on, you know, we've had a feminism movement that's
been going on for a number of years.
And, and I don't have anything bad to say about that, I think in, in,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah, no, it's a necessary thing.
Sure.
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Yeah.
It's a necessary thing.
But men have been left behind and so the messages often are oriented towards women.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Eric Robertson: Not towards men.
And the other thing is, is, as I'll point out a little bit later,
the, the, the issues that men have.
Although they may be the same as the issues that women have,
they show up in a different way.
Rupert Isaacson: Can you elucidate on that a little bit?
How, how do they show up differently?
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Yeah.
The one of the things that that I think people don't recognize is that there is
a difference between men and women in terms of how they represent themselves
when mental health issues come up.
The, one of the one of the things that men tend to do is externalize their emotions,
whereas women tend to internalize those.
And for women that, that shows up as the, the emotional
outbursts and the psychological.
Feelings of being extremely depressed and sad were for men.
It, it, it shows up in a different way.
Men show up the psychological psychologically, they
show up as irritable.
So, they may show a lot of anger.
They have a lot of emotional numbness or flatness.
We've all heard men, especially boys, when you ask 'em what's
wrong, they'll say nothing.
It's fine.
I'm fine.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Eric Robertson: How are you doing?
Well, I'm, I'm doing okay.
Or I'm, I'm angry that that's, that's what you get from men.
They're, they're, they tend to be withdrawn from their relationships
and activities when they get depressed rather than showing signs
of depression they, they turn that into overworking and maybe compulsive
productivity and inability to rest.
There's increased risk taking by men.
Okay.
Which you don't see in, in women.
ESCAP.
I've definitely
Rupert Isaacson: been guilty of that.
Yeah,
Eric Robertson: yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
Eric Robertson: Escapism all the, all the gaming, the porn the doom,
scrolling, isolation, those are all things that manifest for men in
that's much different than with women.
Do
Rupert Isaacson: you not feel that women also though, I mean, I've known
women who've been going through mental health struggles who've absolutely
been extremely irritable and who have also used those same escapist tactics
the exact same ones you described.
Eric Robertson: Right.
Rupert Isaacson: So what is the difference?
Because I, I do think one could say the same about both genders there.
Eric Robertson: Well, I, I think you could, and I think that
with the advent of social media.
And artificial intelligence mm-hmm.
Everything that's happening to us digitally, that perhaps those
behaviors are moving closer together.
But generally and historically, I think that men have responded differently.
And you know, I, I use depression as a good example.
With women, usually you get a persistent sadness or tearfulness.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Eric Robertson: You have excessive worry or rumination.
They show signs of guilt and worthlessness and self blame, fear of abandonment.
Mm-hmm.
Those are not how men exhibit their depression generally.
They, they generally exhibit that in a, in a different way.
How, how do
Rupert Isaacson: they, how do men normally exhibit it, would you say?
Eric Robertson: Well, they exhibit it with increased conflict with
their partners and families.
Okay.
Emotional distance or checking out difficult tolerating, perceived criticism
feeling misunderstood, but unable to explain why they're, they feel that way.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Eric Robertson: You know, they, they talk about being a burden.
They, they start giving away possessions.
When it gets to an extreme you know, they have, they manifest it
in physical symptoms like headaches, stomach problems, chronic pain, sleep
problems, fatigue that sort of thing.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Eric Robertson: Women are just, it's more externalized.
And with men, women, it's more internalized.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
But you say that the suicide, figures are higher for men at this stage.
Yes.
Yeah.
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So that's so interesting.
So, yeah.
'cause I, I'm just thinking if, if I was perhaps not male listening
to this thinking, well, hold on.
You know, I mean, both genders go through all this kind of thing.
Okay.
You know, it's, we should, yes.
Perhaps, you know, help men out more, but I think it's good to
bring it down to a bottom line.
If more men are killing themselves, then clearly we've got a problem.
Are more people are more men killing themselves than they used to.
That's the, the next thing.
And do we have any statistics to back that up?
That you know of?
Eric Robertson: I'm sure they're out there.
I don't know of those I've, I've kind of focused on the current, current
state of men's lives right now.
Uh mm-hmm.
I think there's always probably been a skew towards more
suicides in men than women.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Eric Robertson: But that, that's something that would be interesting because it's
Rupert Isaacson: so interesting.
I, I know so many people who've made suicide attempts, but when I think about
who they are, they're almost all female.
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: The suicides that I know of that did it,
just doing a little check here.
I do think, yeah.
I think most of them are men.
It's true.
And what's interesting too is that some of them were men who
were outwardly quite successful.
Mm-hmm.
You know, it wasn't that they were necessarily lost boys in
their mom's basement gaming.
They were, they were men who one thought, well, hold on.
You know, successful life ticked most of the boxes.
In your therapy.
So in both your family law practice and your now in your therapy practice,
you must have come across many of these types of men to the fact that someone
could even afford a divorced lawyer means that they've reached an economic
bracket where that's even possible, right?
Sure.
Laws are not cheap.
And then now that you are a therapist, you're kind of presumably often
dealing with the same demographic.
Why are successful men so messed up?
Eric Robertson: I think they're a product of their own success in some respects.
There's.
I think one of the things you have to look at is what got them to that point?
What drove them to be successful?
What is it about their upbringing, their, their childhood, their life
in general that pushes them and drives them towards that success?
What is it that they're in their life that they're trying to fill?
And oftentimes what you see is that these men
succeed and they become successful, but they're not filling that hole.
They're not getting what they're really looking for.
Whether that's validation from, from people that are important
to them or whatever it is.
And is,
Rupert Isaacson: is that, is that a, a thing that really comes
up a lot validation from people that are important to them?
Eric Robertson: Yes.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Talk to me about that talk that, that, that,
that's not something I think we should just let go in passing.
What's I express.
Eric Robertson: I'm sorry,
Rupert Isaacson: what?
What are they expressing when they say that?
And
Eric Robertson: they
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
Eric Robertson: yeah, yeah.
They're, they're expressing that they're, they're doing all this
and, and sometimes it's misplaced, but they're doing all this.
And the people that are important to them aren't showing them the
validation that they think they deserve,
Rupert Isaacson: right?
Eric Robertson: And oftentimes the people around them aren't doing that because this
person is working 24 hours a day almost to succeed, and they are letting their
significant relationships fall apart.
They're not spending the time necessary to maintain those relationships
or to grow those relationships.
And so they interpret that when people, their spouse or their family or their
friends don't spend a lot of time throwing admiration at them as a lack
of validation when in fact they're probably too busy to receive it.
Most of the time,
Rupert Isaacson: have you suffered from any of this yourself, would you say?
Eric Robertson: I think there was a time when that I had those
feelings as well when I was at the height of my career as a lawyer.
And you know, success is a tricky thing.
You can get to the point when you're successful that you start
to believe, if you'll pardon the expression, your own bullshit.
And I, I think that, that that has some negative impacts on my relationship
with my wife at that point, and on how I relate to my daughter.
So yeah.
Absolutely.
Rupert Isaacson: What would you say in, in your own life, could you put
a number of years on that period and at what point did you then notice?
I think, and then from noticing to doing something?
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that there was probably a, a period of about 10 years when I was at
the height of what I would say was a successful career as a divorce lawyer.
And I was more focused on maintaining that image than really spending time
outside of my work environment listening to what's going on with my wife and
what's going on with my daughter.
And I think that that wasn't until maybe about five years ago when I started
thinking seriously about making a change in careers that, that it really hit me.
And I think that was one of the reasons why, why, why
Rupert Isaacson: did it hit you?
Like how did, how was it that you noticed?
Why, why did you think Actually
Eric Robertson: I had a, yeah.
I had a kind of a dissatisfaction with what I was doing.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Eric Robertson: As, as you know, I see clients all I well,
seeing clients all day long and.
Was dealing with not only my client, but the attorneys on the other side.
And I, I started personalizing what was happening in my cases, which is a very
dangerous thing for a lawyer to do.
You know, you, I like my clients.
I always like my clients, but you have to keep a distance between what
you're doing for your client and your relationship with your client.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Eric Robertson: And I, I started taking every every accusation that came across
from the other attorney personally.
Not only You hadn't
Rupert Isaacson: done that before.
Eric Robertson: Pardon?
Rupert Isaacson: And you hadn't done that before, earlier in your
Eric Robertson: career?
I hadn't done that before.
No.
You know, for the first, why did
Rupert Isaacson: it creep up on you?
Eric Robertson: I don't know.
For the first 15 years, it was just learning the process of being a good
lawyer and going into court and doing my thing and doing it, almost wrote by
memory, you just had this muscle memory of what to do in a case and how to do it.
And it was not, not uncommon for me to get bad things from other attorneys about
my clients, and I would just kind of sh shuffle those off and not think about it.
But there was a point where I really started taking that personally, and
it was almost like the accusation they're making against my client
was a personal reflection of me.
Rupert Isaacson: I wonder why that became that way if you could, because I, I,
I should imagine that there must be a lot of men and we, we, we are talking
about men at this point in middle age.
And I think we should you know, after this, we should, we should
begin to talk about young, the younger generation too, but just
staying where we are for a moment.
So the majority of your clients would've been men and middle age, or, and women.
Do you think there's something in that age bracket that brought you
to this point where suddenly it was personalized, suddenly you were
taking it like a, a personal attack?
Yeah,
Eric Robertson: yeah, yeah.
Well, it goes back to what I said earlier.
There was, I was in this mindset that I was going to be one of the
best divorce lawyers in Austin, Texas, if not the state of Texas.
And I got myself involved in not only state organizations that supported that
mindset, but national organizations.
I mean, I got to be a member of the American Academy of Matrimonial
Lawyers, which is this group of.
Less than 2000 of the best family law lawyers in the United States.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Eric Robertson: And I got to be on the, on the board for the Texas
chapter of that, and the president of that and all that kind of stuff
was going to my head and I'm thinking
Rupert Isaacson: basis.
Yeah.
Eric Robertson: Gosh, I'm, I'm some level one of the best of the best.
And again, you start believing that stuff and it drives your life and you, you
think, okay, what's the next thing I can do to make it even better to show even
more success at, at, at my chosen career?
And it, it takes a hold of you.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you think though that relationships are
always more than one person?
So do you think that also your wife and your daughter played
into that to some degree?
Were there expectations on you?
Was love.
To some degree con conditional to you showing up as this sort of,
you know, millionaire provider?
Or did you just perceive that it might be, or was there even some truth to that?
Were you all
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Playing into that to some degree?
Eric Robertson: No.
I, I really don't.
I think I was to to use a much overused term, I was caught up in
my own narcissism at some level.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Eric Robertson: And
Rupert Isaacson: it's so interesting that you say that because I, I've
known you for some years and I last, I think narcissist is, is the, is the
last word I would use to describe you.
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Well I think you, you, you came along at a time when I had decided that all
of that wasn't really what I wanted.
And of course the other thing that really helped me was I had a good mentor.
You, you've met him?
Rupert Isaacson: I do know him.
Yeah.
Eric Robertson: And and, and he was he was always there reminding me that
the, this is, this is not who you are.
This is what you do.
And there are other things in life that are more important
than than, than being the best.
Talk to us
Rupert Isaacson: a little bit about Tom.
Because I think, I think one of the things I'd like to go to in this is mentorship.
I think mentorship is something that every human needs, like we need oxygen.
And I think particularly for men, it's kind of fallen by the wayside.
Talk to us about this mental,
Eric Robertson: yeah.
Yeah.
So, when I started practicing family law, I practiced with my wife.
We, she was a lawyer at the time.
We practiced together for about seven years and we had an opportunity to go
to work for another family lawyer in, in Austin, Texas, who had made us the offer.
He was pretty well known as well, been around for a number of years and said,
look, you guys come to work for me.
I got all these cases coming in, you work 'em, and I'll take a percentage of it.
And I had just tried a case against Tom in a court just up the road.
And he, he kicked my butt pretty well.
And so to her credit, my wife said, you know, before we even think about this
offer from this other attorney, why don't you ask Tom about that and ask him about
this guy, and if this is somebody that we want to essentially join forces with.
And so I did.
And he, he, you know, as gracious as he is, he, he came
and picked me up at my office.
When I called him and took me to lunch and I asked questions about this other
lawyer, and he answered 'em honestly.
And then he drove me back.
And when he dropped me off, he said before you respond to this lawyer I want
you to think about it for, for 48 hours.
Don't rush in there and pick up the phone and say yes or no or whatever.
Just think about it.
And I did.
And less than 24 hours later, he called me back and said I wanna offer you
a job to come over and work with me.
And, and my other partner at that time, he had one other partner and Tom Practice
law with that partner and his daughter.
And so, you know, I, I talked to my wife about that and we decided
that's what I wanted to do.
And it was because he was an incredible gentleman.
The way he dealt with people including people on the other side of cases.
I tried a case against him that, that one, I, I mentioned it was very contentious.
I had a very bad client and he was incredibly gracious to
me through that whole process.
He was able to make the distinction between my terrible client and the
lawyer who was representing him.
And that, you know, when I came over and, and, and started working
with him it was, it was just like stepping into another world.
It, everything didn't have to be adversarial.
He mentored me on how to deal with difficult attorneys on the other side,
how to deal with difficult clients, how to deal with difficult judges.
And that was probably the reason I rose to the level I did in the family
law practice because of his mentoring.
Rupert Isaacson: I think specifically what you're, you're talking about
here is conflict resolution, right?
Right.
And we're so used to thinking of particularly divorces as
defacto conflict escalations.
Couple of questions.
First question, what makes a terrible client?
You said, I had a terrible client.
Is a terrible client, someone who, who's going in wanting conflict?
Is, is, is And that is, is that kind of what makes a terrible client?
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Well, let me tell you what, for me, made a terrible client early on in
my career and how that's changed.
A terrible client.
Early on for me was one that was not open to taking advice that
did things that just the opposite of how I advised them to do 'em.
That created bad facts all along the way, including during their divorce.
They would continue to behave poorly during the divorce, even though you'd sit
down and explain to 'em that this isn't gonna come out very well if you continue
doing the kind of behavior you're doing.
Usually the a bad client's just one that doesn't listen.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay?
But that's still, that has to come from, like, you then have to ask the question,
why, why doesn't that person listen?
Right?
If they've hired you, they're, they're spending all this money on you.
They know deep down that you're trying to act in their best interest,
Eric Robertson: right?
Rupert Isaacson: So therefore, if they're not following your advice
on a kind of pathological level, not perhaps on an impulsive.
Angry in that moment, passionate, you know, expression of pain thing.
But consistently then surely, does that not mean that what
they're after is conflict?
Eric Robertson: It could.
It could.
Okay.
Yeah.
And it, you know, there's, I, I recently wrote a, an article about why revenge
wasn't a good strategy for a divorce.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Eric Robertson: And
Rupert Isaacson: why isn't it?
Tell us.
Eric Robertson: Well, it's, it's because it never comes out the
way you think it's gonna come out.
You're never gonna get it, number one.
And secondly, at the end of the day, you're gonna pour all these resources
into trying to get that revenge.
You're not gonna get it, and you're gonna look back at what you did and
feel incredibly stupid for doing it.
And so, but those clients are out there.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Eric Robertson: And the the choice is you can continue representing those
clients and continue to give them good advice and continue to try to get them
to focus on resolving their case rather than going war to see what happens or
you can terminate your relationship with them and, and let them move on to
somebody else who will have you done that?
Take their money, take their money, and do do what they want 'em to do.
Oh, yeah.
The, you know, one of the things that my mentor told me early on was,
firing a client is never a bad thing.
If you get to the point where you can't communicate with that client
effectively, and they won't do what's in their best interest that's not only
good for them, it's good for you that they, that they move on somewhere else.
Rupert Isaacson: I dunno if it's Confucius or if it's just an old Chinese
proverb, but it, it's the one that says.
When you begin a journey of revenge, dig two graves.
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
And cycles of feud are so interesting because the, as you know, I've spent some
years living with koan, bushman, hunter gatherer peoples in Southern Africa.
So I've been lucky enough to see what the blueprint of human society is.
These are the oldest societies on the planet.
They predate agriculture, they predate ownership of things
other than a few personal items.
And they are a very good advertisement for our species
because they, the entire culture is based around conflict resolution.
And it really comes to a very practical thing, which is that if you are living
out there in Africa with a spear.
And your family.
You are not the top of the food chain.
You are mid-level.
And the only thing that will put you on the top of the food chain
is a community with whom you can communicate and strategize.
So if conflict within the community and it will happen, gets beyond a certain
point and the community fragments, then every single person will be eaten by
hyenas without a shadow of a doubt.
So over about 300,000 years, which seems to be about as old as this
culture is, and we all from other ethnic groups share DNA, an old common
DNA with this group of people, that goes back to a female actually living
in what's now Botswana 60,000 years ago, which is still relatively recent
by the, the standards of this culture.
About every 10 days they have a shamanic ceremony.
Where it's kind of like the psychic dirty laundry of the, of the
group gets a chance to be washed.
So that conflict just doesn't get beyond a certain point.
And they're really good at this.
And this is the entire focus as soon as agriculture came in, everything
when the exact opposite direction.
So I think a lot of us feel were, were sold a bill of goods growing
up that about human nature.
And we were all told that human nature is, is grasping and selfish and I want mine.
And look at the conquest of the American West and look at England's
colonial past and look at Rome and you know, it's all there in front of you.
And while those things.
True.
They're not the whole truth.
And I do think that everybody deep down actually wants to resolve conflict.
Everybody deep down knows that it goes nowhere.
Yeah.
But they just can't get off that bandwagon.
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And when you were a lawyer, I guess you were trying to
advise people to not climb onto that bandwagon, not burn the house down.
I've, I've heard you say it's a great term, like resolve this
without destroying everything.
But now you've moved into the therapy sphere, presumably people are coming
to you specifically for conflict resolution, or do you see the same cycles
repeated where people are coming in and they're wanting affirmation from you
for conflicts that they're involved in?
And they're sort of wanting validation in that.
What, what's, how's your experience with this?
Eric Robertson: Well, yeah, a, a little, a little bit of both.
People still come in initially with with ideas of what they want.
You know, the therapist's role isn't to tell people what
to do to make things better.
The therapist's role in mind, dammit.
I
Rupert Isaacson: was hoping you were gonna do that today.
Eric Robertson: The therapist's role is to try to get people to understand who
they are and how they can resolve and come up with the strategy strategies to
resolve their own mental health issues.
So, you know, yeah, I, I do work with people going through divorces and.
They're, they're, they're mad and angry.
Mm-hmm.
And they, they don't like what's happening to 'em.
They don't like what, what they're gonna have to give up
to try to settle their case.
And, and we talk about that, but what we're talking about in the therapy context
is a little bit different than what, what I used to talk about in the divorce
lawyer context, in therapy context.
We're talking about those emotions.
I'm, I'm validating those emotions and letting them know
that it's okay to feel that way.
And trying to get them to understand that they have choices.
They can continue to be that way or they can move into some other a mother arena.
They're not, that's similar to some of the things that I did as a divorce lawyer, but
from a divorce lawyer standpoint I was a little bit freer to say things like you
know, I don't think you want to do that.
And here's why.
If you do that, the other side's gonna do this, and you're
gonna get really pissed off.
And if we, if we get to the courthouse and we have to have a trial in front of a
judge, they're gonna be really pissed off.
And you're going to feel the brunt of that, and you're gonna come out
on the losing end of that stick.
So don't do it in a
Rupert Isaacson: Now that's really helpful.
Is that not by its definition, conflict resolution, right there?
Eric Robertson: It, it is, it's part of what what I would put in
the umbrella of conflict resolution.
But from a therapeutic standpoint, that's not what a therapist would do.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Do you
Eric Robertson: know now again, some of the other things, some of
the other stuff I did that I do is, as we've talked about, is divorce.
Divorce coaching.
Okay.
Which is which is helping people when they're in the midst of the divorce
to provide them support as they're going through the divorce and to
try to get them regulated if they're dysregulated emotionally, so that they
can make good decisions and so that they can listen to what their divorce
lawyer is telling them and follow their divorce lawyer's, legal advice.
See that that's, that's the, the difference between being a divorce
coach and being a lawyer is the lawyer gives legal advice and gives
you a legal strategy and does all these things that the law requires.
As a divorce coach, I'm, I'm there to kind of support them and
help them understand that this person that you've, you're paying.
Large amounts of money to, to help you through this divorce is
giving you, for the most part good advice, and we need to understand
why you're reluctant to take it.
What is it that's keeping you from doing what your divorce
lawyer is telling you to do?
And, you know, I'm, I'm not really a therapist in that role.
Yeah.
A hundred percent, but I'm not, it's a
Rupert Isaacson: great hybrid role.
I think it's a really, it's a really needed one because I think
you can, you can really help people to not destroy their families.
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And themselves.
As you know, if you followed any of my work, I'm an autism dad and we have
a whole career before this podcast in helping people with neurodivergence,
either who are professionals in the field.
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We really want to know.
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live their best life, to live free, ride free, see what happens.
What are your strategies do you have like a, a go-to, like do, I presume
you must see patterns in clients like personality type one, personality
type two, personality type three.
Just over the years, these things must have, there's always
patterns, you know, to everything.
And then do you have.
Strategy patterns.
And I'm just thinking if someone who's watching this and listening
to it, they might recognize themselves in one of those.
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And might be able to draw some really useful insights from that.
And now as they're listening to, and, and then just before we go
there to these patterns and how you approach them, is the divorce coaching
thing quite a recent phenomenon?
Because it's not something I've heard of before, but it does
sound something very useful.
Eric Robertson: Yeah, it, it's a, it's fairly recent phenomenon, I'd say
within the last five to eight years.
There's, there's not a lot of people out there that do divorce coaching.
There are there are some unfortunately there's a lot of people that.
Got into divorce coaching after they went through a bad divorce themselves,
which is probably not the person you need to, you need to choose to do that.
There are also hybrid therapies that kind of work along with
things like divorce coaching.
There's a a concept called divorce discernment counseling.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Eric Robertson: Where couples who are having difficulty, who aren't wanting
to go into marriage counseling, go into divorce, discernment counseling for a,
a number of sessions, a finite number of sessions to determine whether or
not they want to get a divorce or not.
And I think at, when you talk about conflict resolution, that's
one of the, the first places a lot of people might think to start
in terms of divorce coaching.
I don't know that I have any set strategies.
I mean, obviously, as you know, every case is, is different.
Every person that comes in the office is different, presents, different issues.
My my mode of working with people is the first session we'll spend
an hour to an hour and a half talking about their divorce.
Normally they're already in the divorce, and what got 'em there what
the issues are in their divorce what, what the the struggles are that they're
going through in the legal process.
And then we address each of those in the, in the subsequent sessions.
And o oftentimes the first session is somebody coming in and just.
Laying out every bad thing that's happened to him in the process leading
up to the divorce and during the divorce, and how awful the other side is.
And this is what I want to have happen.
And then we have to talk about, well, what kind of advice are
you getting from your attorney?
Are you following that advice?
Why not if you're not?
And one of the things I've found over the years practicing law as a divorce
lawyer was every client that came into the room, had five or six shadow
advisors that were feeding stuff to them about what they ought to do and
what they shouldn't do in their divorce.
And so when that comes into the room in a divorce coaching
situation, we have to unpack that and we have to talk about that.
Who's giving you advice?
Where did you get that?
Who told you that?
Why do you think that's important for you to do?
And and then we have to really examine that in the context of what is best
for you as you go through your divorce.
Do you really think that you ought to be listening to your sister or to your best
friend give you advice about your divorce?
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Eric Robertson: And, and, and most of the time people come around to the
idea that, well, as, as I was fond of saying when I was a lawyer, you know,
you're paying me $600 an hour for my advice and you're not taking it.
Is, is that really a smart thing to do?
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
I've got a question for you which I just wrote down here.
So why is, is counterintuitive, why is someone who went through a bad divorce
perhaps not a good divorce coach?
Because let's say you're in aa, you would want your sponsor
to be an alcoholic, right?
Yeah.
So if they don't, if they haven't gone through it, what resources
have they got really to offer you?
Eric Robertson: Yeah, I just wrote an article about that, that was
posted on a somebody's LinkedIn and I'm happy to share it with you, to
share with your, your listeners.
But
I'm not saying you can never hire somebody that's been through a divorce
to be your divorce coach, but what I'm saying is you need to be careful
people that go through a bad divorce.
Come into the process with a bias, they're already pissed off at the
process or pissed off at their ex-spouse.
They're mad and angry sometimes at, at their attorney or the judge.
And so they come in with their own agenda and a lot of times they're
projecting their own stuff onto your case, and the advice you're gonna
get may not be the advice that you need from somebody that doesn't
have that kind of emotional baggage.
So you need to be very careful when you choose a divorce coach.
And if somebody says.
On their website or in their materials that they've been through a divorce, you
need to ask them some strong questions about, well, how did that go for you?
You know, ideally you'd, if you hire somebody like that, you'd find somebody
that went through a, some sort of a collaborative process where they had very
little conflict and they resolve things amiably and, and they're just there to
help other people learn those techniques and go through the divorce The same way.
You don't want somebody that the first thing they tell you after you
ask them about their divorce was, well, my spouse was a real no good
SOB, and I got taken to the cleaners and the judge gave her everything.
And that's, that's the in no sure that,
Rupert Isaacson: that, that I could see, but I could see someone
of real value saying, well, no, I had a terrible divorce.
You know, and but.
During this, I tried to make it as un, you know, as un terrible as possible and tried
to listen to my lawyer in this way and tried to resolve the conflict, you know?
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: As we best we could and got did the best we
could with the situation, you know, that would reassure me, you know,
Eric Robertson: or somebody that recognizes that I went through a
bad divorce and I behaved poorly.
Right.
And I didn't follow my lawyer's advice and I came out of it
badly, but it was my own thought.
You'll do what I did.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, that would make sense.
So, okay, let's, let's go back to the, to the, your therapy hat.
I think men from our generation, it's, it's pretty clear, you
know, what the issues are.
We were brought up brutalized I.
I know, you know, I went to a certain type of military school in the UK where
physical violence and assault was daily.
And, but from every level, from the teachers, from the other boys, from
the older boys to the younger boys from, and it was all encouraged.
And it was, you know, actively the culture because it was supposed to make you tough.
And what it did was it created all sorts of dysfunctions naturally,
but its purpose was clear.
It was supposed to be preparing boys to go out and run the British
empire, even though the British Empire didn't actually exist anymore.
And although you could argue it became a bank.
But, and a lot of my friends went into the armed forces or into banking and.
The point was that it was gonna produce an officer class of young men who would go
out and like run a portion of the Sudan, possibly die at the age of 32 of malaria
or killed in a tribal conflict, and sort of be able to do that with a kind of a
confidence and a belief in themselves and a, a certain willingness to die.
And we were told, we're gonna break you down to build you up.
And, and they certainly did break us down and what we were re
composited as was a motley collection of stuff.
But I think that the stuff facing younger men today, and I'm the father
of a 25-year-old, it's different.
It's about an, as you said earlier in the conversation about
anxiety, it's about loneliness.
It's about isolation.
And I think this is something I'd ask the readers and the, the, the, the
viewers and the listeners to consider.
If you are, are you, do you know, are you this parent or do you know someone
who is this parent that you, they have perhaps two girls and a boy of young
adult age and of the two girls, one is at college, one is beginning her
career doing quite well, and the boy who's a young adult is in the basement
and won't get off the computer game.
Is this, is this a familiar scenario?
Mm-hmm.
I would posit that quite a few hands would go up.
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Give us your thoughts on this.
Eric Robertson: Well, I have a, I have a couple thoughts on that.
Number one, I, I don't think that.
What you've explained about your growing up and to some extent the
way I grew up in, in, in the United States is is completely gone.
Yet I think that there's still this, these traditional norms of masculinity
that we teach boys early on and you know, things like strength and
equal self-reliance and we need to be in control with our emotions.
We frame vulner vulnerability as often as weakness or, or dependency or, or mm-hmm.
Some sort of failure, which it isn't.
And so I, I don't think that those things are all gone.
Rupert Isaacson: A hundred
Eric Robertson: percent I do.
Yeah.
I do agree that there, there's this new thing that's come in that's, that's
allowed boys to try to escape from.
The world the, the video game stuff and, and social media and,
and everybody's got a cell phone.
And of course the, the kind of bullying that goes on, on social media
with with kids is, is horrendous.
And I think that, that, that drives a lot of young men into, into
the basement with a video game.
That's, that's where they can get away.
They can get on these action games online and present whatever they think
their view of masculine masculinity ought to be in that context.
And they're, they're doing that on their own.
There's no, you know, even though you might be in one of these games
where you're engaged with other people online, there's no emotional
connection with those people.
There's no friendship.
Mm-hmm.
It's, it, you're not out there.
With your best buddy talking about how bad things are at home or what,
what's going on at, at school or
Rupert Isaacson: sharing a goofy laugh.
Yeah.
Eric Robertson: Or sharing a goofy laugh with somebody
that's, that's not happening.
And I think you know, I think that that's problematic and I think, you
know, for us to turn that around, I think the most important step for parents,
and, and I would put this out to your listeners, is to start early developing
some sort of an emotional literacy.
With with your boys.
This means helping them name emotions other than it's fine, or I'm mad,
or I'm tired, and, and doing so, and doing so without shaming them.
That's, that's the other part.
Adults should model that emotional language and normalize all the emotions
that that, that your kids your boys especially carry and not try to assign
that as being some sort of a weakness.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Eric Robertson: One of the phrases I like is focus with boys especially
focus on connection before correction, when, when they act out.
Okay?
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Eric Robertson: Because I think in, in my.
My growing up, you know, if I did something wrong as a kid, I got the belt.
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Eric Robertson: That, that, that dates me a little bit, but that, that fits in with
the violence that, that you talked about.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Eric Robertson: And when they act out, there's a natural tendency
to want to scream and shout and, and correct the behavior.
But we need to understand what's going on first, and that's
where the connection comes in.
Rupert Isaacson: You talked about mentorship.
I think, I know, I observe that weirdly, this is getting harder
and harder to find, it seems.
And because we've had a feminist movement, I'm wondering if it's easier
for females to find female to female mentoring, particularly intergenerational.
The elders, you know,
why, why don't we have that for boys?
Is it because men are working too hard?
They're too checked out.
They're not available.
They're not there.
Why is it?
Eric Robertson: I think that's part of it.
I think men of childbearing age now are, are real involved with their
careers and with other things and not necessarily available to mentor.
Rupert Isaacson: Because it seems to me there's been a double standard,
which is that, I mean, we, humans are great at double standards and I've
produced many double standards myself.
But the double standard is, is that as a male, now you're supposed
to be available vulnerable.
Communicative, compassionate.
And absolutely, you know, equal rec, you know, work an equal
thing between the genders and on.
However, at the same time, you're actually still supposed to be the red
winner and you're judged if you're not by females as much as by other men.
And
Eric Robertson: it's funny you should say that, that I, that is something
I experienced as a divorce lawyer.
So we're all familiar with this in the United States with the
concept of the stay at home mom.
She's a mom that stays at home.
She takes care of the household, she raises the kids, she does
everything in the household,
Rupert Isaacson: and we honor that.
Yeah.
Eric Robertson: And we want her there.
And I'll throw this out to feminism, and she's not appreciated as
much as she ought to be, perhaps.
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
Eric Robertson: But.
Every once in a while I would get a case where those roles were reversed
and the female was the high wage earner and they had made an agreement
that the male would stay home and be the house husband and raise the kids.
And the, the, the funny thing that happened with that is in the context of
the divorce, that female acted just like men act in, in the reverse situation.
They took on the same traits as men.
They resented the fact that this person stayed at home and didn't do anything even
though they were at home doing things.
They resented the fact that they had gone out and earned all this money
and now we're having to split it with this person who stayed at home.
And even though they made that agreement seven years into it, when.
That she didn't like it anymore the female would have the same complaints
that men had in the same situation.
So what, what that told me was in those circumstances, there really isn't much
of a, of a difference in how men and women respond in those circumstances.
Although societally, I think there has been it's, they're more open to it now.
There was a tendency to think that men that were staying at home doing that kind
of stuff were kind of freeloading and not really living up to their potential.
And, and of course I, like I said, I think that's changing.
But it, it was, it always interest me that there was really, when you're in the
thick of the conflict, the same things you hear from men, you'd hear from women,
Rupert Isaacson: right.
And, and.
That's a good insight that it's, it's more a human thing than a gender thing.
But that also, I think the gender roles that, and expectations that
we're all brought up with can backfire I think to some degree on males
because yes, you are still expected to behave in that stoic manner.
You're still supposed to be more the strong, silent type you're still
supposed to go out and earn and provide.
And one of the difficulties about that is that, and that's why I asked you
questions earlier in this conversation about whether there had been some of
those expectations on you because, or whether they, they'd been projections.
Because I think the reality is that for a lot of.
Meant those expectations are still there.
And what that does is it means that they can't actually be that available to their
kids because the time that it takes and the energy that it takes to be that sort
of stoic breadwinner, unfortunately, does take time away from where they
could be vol, you know, a available
Eric Robertson: mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: To their spouses and children.
How does one resolve this?
Eric Robertson: It comes down to making a choice about what's important to you.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Eric Robertson: You know what?
You have to examine your own values in terms of having a family and having
children, and having boys and what you're willing to do to make sure that you
raise the best possible young man you can with the best possible emotional health.
That you can, you can instill in them.
Mm-hmm.
And you know, that's a different thing 'cause we're you know, I like
to think of, of, as you put it, how man has developed over history.
And we've moved from what you described with the bushman
to an agrarian to society.
And now I'm gonna get a lot of flack for say in this, but now we're a society,
a world society driven by greed.
Okay?
That's the focus.
The focus of life is making as much money and accumulating
as much stuff as possible.
Now, there's always exceptions to that and there's a lot of people out
there that don't live that kinda life.
But if, if you look at the news in the United States, that's
what you see all the time.
That's a measure of success.
And as we talked about earlier, the way to get to that success is to work as
hard as you can, as much as you can.
And you know, there's 24 hours in a day if you assume that you're asleep for
eight of it, you don't have a lot left.
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.
Eric Robertson: To work and then to devote to to mentorship of
your, of your children or, or other people's children for that matter.
And so that, that's, I think that's the, that's the problem.
I don't think there's an easy way to turn that around if you're
not willing to make the choice.
Now, one of the other things that I think is really interesting is,
and, and I'm sure you know this, but fewer and fewer people are getting
married today and having kids.
In many countries, including the United States, the birth rate is down.
And if you talk to people that are living together, or even some
that do get married, they have no interest in having children.
And that, that's a whole different issue.
But I think we would, you know, five years from now, 10 years from now,
we'll be having a completely different conversation about this because we'll
have screwed up this generation and there may not be another generation.
Rupert Isaacson: What conversation will we be having?
Eric Robertson: I think we'll be having a conversation about why people don't
want to procreate, why they don't want to have a, a son or a daughter,
why they don't want to have children.
What is, what is it?
Rupert Isaacson: Why, why do you think it is?
Why do you think people don't?
Eric Robertson: Well, I think I'll go back to the greed thing.
I think a lot of it has to do with, in, in Austin, Texas.
I will tell you, a lot of it has to do with, it's so expensive to live here.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm mm
Eric Robertson: And that the idea that I can barely afford to live with this
partner that I have, let alone bring another person into the world and
have to cover the expenses of that.
Mm-hmm.
For a lot of people is is really daunting.
Plus, I think that some of the things we've talked about, about how young
people, young men in particular are pulling away from connection with other
people is going to lead to some of that.
You know, as I was going through the the, my last master's degree
program, I did an internship at the University of Texas seeing college kids.
And I gotta tell you, it was, a little bit depressing what comes into the
room with college kids these days?
Rupert Isaacson: Tell me
Eric Robertson: they have difficulty again, these, all these same things.
They have difficulty making connection.
Even those that want it, don't know how to go out there and do it.
And how to, how to connect with other people, how to find other people.
There is probably twice as many women on college campuses now than men.
And so the, the, the dating pool for men may be big, but if you, if you do the, the
math on it there's, there's not a, there's not a, a girl for every boy on campus.
And so there's, there's a lot of things that, and, and even in, in college
after COVID when people were all kind of taken away from having any community
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
Eric Robertson: To being online a lot of those people started.
In high school and then transitioned into college during that period of
time, they completely lost out the learning curve that they would've
gained if they were going to school every day and out there in public.
And
Rupert Isaacson: yeah, that, that learning, the, you know, it's
interesting 'cause I went to an all boys school for a long time, and I
remember when I came out of that I was, I didn't go the full trajectory to 18.
I got, I came out at 16 and went transitioned to a, an early college where
there were girls and I didn't know how to talk to this alien species because I
just had not been exposed to them at all.
Yeah.
It resolved itself over, over time, but it wasn't disrupted by something like COVID.
I think that the, yeah, the inability to actually physically
meet and talk to each other.
Meant something rather cataclysmic for the our generation.
And it seems though that it's not that girls haven't come out of
it with that, with mental health problems, but it does seem that the
boys seem to be more impacted by it.
And I wonder why that is.
Is it because young males need biologically seem to, need
biologically to go out and sort of have these adventures together,
these physical adventures together?
Some people do it through sport and like heavy contact sports or some people do it
right going hunting or some people do it through, you know, we're all skateboarding
at the park and some people do it through this and some people do it through that.
. I think that young men in particular need risk.
They need risk, like they need oxygen.
Mm-hmm.
Because again, having lived with hunters and gatherers, what one
observes is that hunting and gathering roles are not completely gender.
Assigned, but they're largely gender assigned, just purely by convenience
in that, let's say you have a baby at hip, you're not going to, or
you're pregnant, you're not going to run down an antelope at that point.
You might do it as a young girl before you got pregnant.
But gender.
And then of course when you go out gathering for wild foods, which ends
up being a predominantly female thing, it doesn't mean you're never hunting.
And interestingly, you know, as a male, you're, you are also gathering as you
hunt and noticing where wild foods are and you're gonna report that back.
And so, so there, there is crossover.
However there, there are a certain amount of gender roles and young men
know that they're going to have to face.
Animals to hunt that will hunt them back.
That's the crucial thing.
So I've observed this when you go and you hunt some, it's not lions, you're
not hunting lions, but you might have to go chase lions off a kill.
Eric Robertson: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And the lion will have something to say about that.
And you will encounter an antelope like hems book or bush buck, that there
are these particular types of antelope that are known that when they, once
they figure out that you are hunting them, they'll turn around and hunt you
back and they've got a pretty strong likelihood of getting it and you need to
know how to dive, lean into that risk,
et cetera.
So it seems that over however many hundreds of thousands of years
young boys have need risk taking.
And it's interesting that you were talking at the.
Early part of this conversation about elevated risk taking as
a as a mental health deficit.
But one thing I know is that risk taking is necessary as well, but it's
supposed to be done under mentorship.
You're supposed to go out with the older hunters, just as you go out with the older
gatherers and say, no, not that mushroom, but that mushroom, that mushroom,
there's gonna kill the entire family.
That even though it looks similar to that mushroom there, you, you need that one.
Similarly with the hunting, you don't just blindly go in and take these
risks, but there will be a point where you will have to do it solo.
And so you're gonna get there gradually.
And this involves, of course, tribe.
This involves community.
This involves actual people showing you what to do and actual
risk in a natural environment.
So the boys at the skate park who are risking breaking their
legs as they're skating down, you know, the courthouse steps mm-hmm.
Are fulfilling a biological need and they shouldn't be chased off.
Eric Robertson: Right.
Rupert Isaacson: They're actually doing it quite creatively 'cause
they're harming no one but themselves.
It's why young men also go out and get into fights.
It's, it's all of this stuff and it doesn't need to be antisocial, but
whether you think it should be there or shouldn't be there, it's there.
Yeah.
And that's why the video games present as they do and all of that.
So in the absence of that what, how do you help people?
So for example, in my work, you know, so much of what I do is
reconnecting people with nature.
Eric Robertson: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: And saying before we have any discussion over
your endocrine system, which is producing the moods that you've got.
We need to be in an environment that's working for us, not against us.
And I remember this when I was going through talk therapy and
it wasn't really working for me.
I remember asking the therapist, I can see the woods outside.
Eric Robertson: Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: I know something about neuroscience.
Please, can we not be in this?
I'm sitting here, you're sitting there.
Thing where I'm feeling, I'm itching to get out of my skin and
I'm feeling a bit shamed anyway.
And can we not go out there and walk under the trees?
It will go better if we do.
Eric Robertson: Sure.
Rupert Isaacson: And I couldn't get this guy to do it.
And finally I said, I'll pay you double.
I'll pay you, I'll pay you for the, an extra hour for the 10 minutes
it takes us to walk out there.
And the 10 minutes walk back.
And where I think he was uncomfortable with it is, I think it actually affected
the power balance that he rather liked that this can happen in therapy.
That, that the therapist has a certain power and.
It became a little bit more collegial.
So I couldn't really persuade him to keep going, but I probably, I know I got
more out of the few sessions I managed to
Eric Robertson: Sure.
Rupert Isaacson: Bully him to go outside.
If you made it this far into the podcast, then I'm guessing you're somebody
that, like me, loves to read books about not just how people have achieved
self actualization, but particularly about the relationship with nature.
Spirituality, life, the universe, and everything.
And I'd like to draw your attention to my books.
If you would like to read the story of how we even arrived here, perhaps
you'd like to check out the two New York Times bestsellers, The Horseboy
and The Long Ride Home, and come on an adventure with us and see what engendered,
what started Live Free Ride Free.
And before we go back to the podcast, also check out The Healing
Land, which tells the story of.
My years spent in the Kalahari with the Sun, Bushmen, hunter gatherer people
there, and all that they taught me, and mentored me in, and all that I learned.
Come on that adventure with me.
So talk to me about this because you know, you, you know as well as I do that Yes.
Males kind of need this.
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Don't get it.
It then turns weird.
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: You are now in a therapy situation.
What do you do?
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, let me, let me start by saying this because I, I
agree with what you're saying.
I think that we need to provide male affirming spaces where boys
and men can talk while doing
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Eric Robertson: And, and I, I, I think that in a, in a traditional therapy
practice, that that is often hard to do.
I mean, if you're lucky enough to have an office that's next to a a nature preserve
or a hiking trail or something like that I think, I think that's, that's great.
And I think that I'm, you know, as an attorney, there was definitely
a hierarchy and a balance of power between the attorney and the client.
And when I left that and got into therapy, I got into therapy with the mindset
that I'm, I'm doing away with that.
There's no longer gonna be a balance of power.
It's just me and this person who's come to me with particular
issue that wants to work on that.
And I don't, I don't know more, any more about that issue that
he's struggling with than he does.
So I need to be in the room and present and acknowledge that that
we're, we're on this journey together.
You know, there, there's.
Without going into all of the, the different modalities that, that
I, I was taught in school or that I've picked up after getting outta
school that I, I practice with you know, I, I like to use skill-based
therapies where there's some engagement with the other, with the client.
I've always thought I have an interest in, in weightlifting, and I always
thought I, I would love to have my own gym
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
Eric Robertson: And have a therapy for men that, like that kind of thing.
Because I think that's, again, that's what you're talking about.
You're, you're engaged.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Why not do that?
Why not do that?
Yeah,
Eric Robertson: yeah.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: I know, for example, you're also a boxer.
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Why
Rupert Isaacson: not?
Why not introduce that into a therapy session?
Eric Robertson: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, for me right now, the, the problem is just having the facilities to do that.
Now again, that, that, that's a, that's something.
That I, I think would be great, and I'd like to do that and, and perhaps at
some point would be able to do that, but I, I think it is, I important that you
explore those things with the client.
Mm-hmm.
You know, that, that's parting to getting to know the client in the very beginning
is what is this client all about?
What do, what do they enjoy?
What do they like to do?
Unfortunately, therapists see a lot of clients that are just so
disengaged with the world that they don't know what their interests are.
And so a lot of what we do is try to explore that.
What are your values?
What are your goals in life?
Where do you want to be in five years?
And to get some idea of who that person is.
But I, I, I hear what you're saying and I think it is important, and I would never,
Rupert Isaacson: there's, there's been, there's been some interesting
science come out of it lately.
You know, as you know, I do a lot of work with equine.
Mm-hmm.
A recent study got published which is to do with domestic violence and perpetrators
of domestic violence, by the way.
Both male and female.
And
the results showed that after a five week intervention, it was once a week, I think.
This is through the University of Bournemouth in the uk.
There was a 51% decrease in re-offending.
Mm-hmm.
A year after finishing that short intervention.
And that most of the people who had attended that equine thing had
dropped outta talk therapy because they just didn't want to do it.
And what they found was that not only did the horses provide all
these interesting metaphors and.
There was nature going on, but that the relationship that the people formed with
the horse made them want to come back.
But they couldn't really empathize with the therapist.
So the therapist could get out of the way and they could form
a relationship with horse.
They actually wanted to come back and spend time with this horse.
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And so therefore they finished the program.
'Cause as you know, a lot of people in programs drop out and I wonder about this.
You know, we had recently here on the farm where I'm living, a
friend of mine brought her son who was not coming out of the room.
And we were lucky.
We had three weeks.
And I said, just bring him, because the way of life here, I think
will begin to sort it out because there's no heating in this house.
And if you want to be warm and it's winter, now you have to cut wood.
And you have to make a fire.
It, there is just no alternative.
There are no radiators.
It's a 500 year old house and it has never had heating.
Mm-hmm And to get the wood, we have to go up on the mountain and we have
to cut it and we are not doing it in a kind of a depressed, oh shit,
this is terrible sort of a way.
Right.
We're having a bit of a laugh while we do it, but if we
don't do it, we won't get warm.
And that's before you look at the other things that we do on the farm
that there is just this bottom line.
And it was very interesting.
We left him alone a bit at first and then he came out of the room saying, I'm bored.
And we said, great.
Let's go do something then.
Or you can go back to your room if you want.
We went force.
Be
Eric Robertson: bored.
Yeah.
I
Rupert Isaacson: don't want to go back to the room 'cause I'm cold.
Fantastic.
I have a solution.
We were just about to go up the mountain to get some wood.
I don't really want to do that.
Okay, fine.
No worries.
You don't need to do that.
We'll go up there and we'll bring some down, but we'll see you in an hour.
So of course that happened.
And then the next time he came up the mountain, and then before you know
it, he was up there chopping wood.
And what was interesting is that when he went home he then became more
and more engaged in what was going on and then went out and exploring.
He's now gone back to his suburban context where he doesn't have those resources
available to him outside the front door.
So he said to his mom, oh, but don't worry if I fall back in, I, I'll always go back.
I can go back to that farm and reset.
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So what I'm wondering is, because you know
the value of these things.
Yeah.
And you now have this new career in front of you.
Are you looking at partnering with nature-based things and
equine things and that sort of thing and sports-based things?
Eric Robertson: Sure, sure.
And
Rupert Isaacson: and
Eric Robertson: yeah, to the extent, to the extent those are out there,
and I can find those, I think those are something that I would like
to integrate into my practice.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Eric Robertson: You know, I think programs that combine mental health
support and mentoring and coaching and vocational identity and other
activities are very important for men.
I think they, they, they have a very good chance of, of higher engagement.
Mm-hmm.
With men especially.
And obviously as I go forward and, and build a practice with that
focus, that's gonna be important to look out there for, for that.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
The, the kids that were coming to you in the.
That internship that you did at the university?
Eric Robertson: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: How many of them had gone, had parents
who'd gone through bad divorces?
Eric Robertson: There were several.
There were several.
Yeah.
I, I couldn't say it was a majority, but there were several.
Rupert Isaacson: Did you notice a pattern there?
Were there patterns of certain types of behavior or emotional
state that you could say
Eric Robertson: Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: that,
Eric Robertson: yeah.
Not, not that we're significantly different from those whose
parents were still married.
Okay.
Now, again, I don't know you know, you're, when you deal with young
people, it is sometimes difficult to get them to give you all of the
information that you would like to have.
So I don't know how many of those people whose parents were still together.
Or could describe their parents' relationship as being a good one, right?
Or not?
Yeah.
You can ask those questions and a lot of time they say things
like, yeah, they're, they're fine.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Eric Robertson: That, that doesn't give me a lot to work with.
But that's just the nature of
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Eric Robertson: Dealing with somebody who's frontal
cortex isn't fully developed.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Eric Robertson: And that, that's,
Rupert Isaacson: talk to us about that actually, because not
everybody knows that neuroscience.
So, talk to us about the development of the frontal cortex versus the
limbic system and why this matters.
Yeah.
Eric Robertson: Well, the, the frontal cortex doesn't fully
develop in humans until they're in their mid to late twenties.
Rupert Isaacson: And what does the frontal cortex do?
Eric Robertson: The con that, that is the higher level of thought.
That's where your higher level of thought comes from.
And your rational thought comes from
Rupert Isaacson: figuring shit out,
Eric Robertson: figuring shit out.
The limbic system is that part that, what I call the reptilian brain that is
involved in the fight or flight, right?
When you're faced with something terrible, you either shut down you,
you explode and fight, or you run off.
So the, for young people, they're not operating on all cylinders, so to
speak when, when they're faced with a crisis and they're not able to to
really think through rationally what their options are and how, how they're
gonna solve the, whatever the issue is.
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: No, absolutely.
And this is obviously something in our work, we look at all the time that yeah,
it's a little bit like in adolescence.
Your nose gets a bit big and then another part of you gets a bit big
and then the rest catches up and it's exactly the same in the brain.
And when the limbic system is ahead of the CEO of the brain, the, the frontal cortex.
Things get funky and people get overactive and self-absorbed.
And then we are hard on young people for this, but actually it's
exactly how nature has designed it.
They have no more choice in the matter, right, than a toddler does.
Right.
She's going through actually a similar type of thing, and as you
say, it doesn't resolve itself until the mid late twenties.
So that thing of figuring shit out and handling your shit, emotional
regulation, you can't do that actually when your limbic system
is in, is overtaken in the race.
But now some people seem to stay there though.
You know, one, one meets quite a lot of 56 year olds who are still mentally and
emotionally where they were at 12 to 15.
What do you think is going on there?
Because you see those clients, those are the clients that are
not listening to you as a lawyer.
Yeah.
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
You know, it, it's really,
I don't know that I can say that the development hasn't happened so much
as sometimes the Olympic system just kind of overwhelms the court, the, the
frontal cortex and, and they just, they get so overwhelmed with what's going on
around them that it kind of goes offline.
Rupert Isaacson: What is your strategy for helping them get it back online?
Eric Robertson: Well, we do a lot of emotional regulation.
We, you know, a lot of times people come into the office and
they're just so dysregulated.
We have to do some breathing exercises to begin with, or we have, I have some
other exercises that that I, I use to help some tapping, self-tapping apps
exercises, which are that come out of the EMDR area that help people tell us about
Rupert Isaacson: tapping.
Why does tapping work?
Eric Robertson: Bilateral tapping allows people to, not really sure
how it works, but it allows people to to regulate their emotions in the
moment and to bring themself back to a more state of stasis and calm.
And it, it's worked.
It's worked for a lot of my clients
Rupert Isaacson: and it's a guided process.
Right.
Eric Robertson: And it's a guided process.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Just take a two, a minute or two, guide me
through one, take me through a
Eric Robertson: time.
Okay.
Well, I actually happen to have one right here that I use with the client.
This morning.
And
so we start with identifying whatever the issue is that is causing the distress.
And we bring, we name it, you name that in the room.
I'm having s severe anxiety because I failed a test.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Eric Robertson: And then you rate the intensity of your
anxiety on a one to 10 scale.
And then with the tapping, you can just start by one easy one is just
tapping the top of your head and repeating a little mantra that it,
even though I deeply, or even though I feel or think or have anxiety over
this test, I deeply and completely love, forgive, and accept myself.
Rupert Isaacson: Even though I'm having anxiety over this test, I deeply
love, forgive and appreciate myself.
Eric Robertson: Yes, and then you move down to your temples
and repeat the same thing.
Even though I feel or think or have anxiety over this test,
Rupert Isaacson: even though I think or feel or have anxiety over this test,
Eric Robertson: I deeply and completely love, forgive, and accept says self.
Rupert Isaacson: I deeply and completely love.
Forgive and accept myself.
Eric Robertson: Move to your forehead.
Same thing.
Even though I feel thank or have anxiety over this test,
Rupert Isaacson: even though I think, feel or have anxiety over this test,
Eric Robertson: I deeply and completely love, forgive, and accept myself.
Rupert Isaacson: I deeply and completely love, forgive and accept myself.
Eric Robertson: Then we move down to right under your eyes and you do the same thing.
Even though, even though I feel, think, or have anxiety over this test, I
Rupert Isaacson: feel, think or have anxiety over this test,
Eric Robertson: I deeply and completely love, forgive and accept myself
Rupert Isaacson: I deeply and completely love, forgive and accept myself
Eric Robertson: then right under your nose.
Even though I feel, think, or have anxiety over this test,
Rupert Isaacson: even though I think, feel or have anxiety over this test,
Eric Robertson: I deeply and completely love, forgive, and accept myself
Rupert Isaacson: I deeply and completely love, forgive and accept myself
Eric Robertson: and then under your mouth, on your chin.
Even though I feel, think, or have anxiety over this test,
Rupert Isaacson: people have anxiety over this test.
Eric Robertson: I deeply and completely love, forgive and accept myself.
Rupert Isaacson: I deeply and completely love, forgive and accept myself.
Eric Robertson: And if the person isn't fully regulated,
we'll go through that again.
Rupert Isaacson: It does feel better.
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: I would argue that there's yeah, a creation of endorphins
there and what's called BDNF, brain derived neurotrophic factor creating of
new neurons, novel movement, new pathways.
But I can definitely feel a difference.
And you know, I've, I do know people that do this, but I haven't actually
done one of those for a while.
And I have done them in times of high anxiety and they really do work.
Do you find that men resist this stuff, or,
Eric Robertson: yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
You gotta get past that touchy feely.
Kind of mentality.
How'd you get
Rupert Isaacson: past it?
Eric Robertson: Well, a lot of times I say, Hey, I do this, I do this.
I used to do this before I'd go to trial.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Eric Robertson: I'd be so overwhelmed with anxiety going into the
courtroom that I would find a space someplace and I would do that.
Rupert Isaacson: Did you get overwhelmed with anxiety going into the courtroom?
Eric Robertson: I did.
I did.
Yeah.
I, I would tell I, same thing.
I would tell my clients, I would tell any lawyer, any young lawyer,
if you don't get nervous or if you're not nervous when we're walking into
the courtroom, I'm really concerned.
Okay.
That's, that's an instance where anxiety.
Is probably helpful.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Eric Robertson: Now you don't wanna be so anxi anxious that
you can't answer a question.
Or you can't as a lawyer, you can't ask a question.
But I would do that to relax myself before I would start a trial.
Rupert Isaacson: This actually could be quite healthy to people listening.
What is healthy anxiety?
We're generally told that anxiety is unhealthy.
What is healthy?
Anxiety?
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
I, I don't believe that all anxiety is unhealthy.
An look we evolved with anxiety.
Mm-hmm.
And anxiety serves a purpose.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Eric Robertson: Using your metaphor of hunter gatherers out on the,
on the field.
If you're anxious, you're hyper aware of what's going on around you.
And there's a protective aspect to that.
If, if you're in a bad situation and you're anxious and there's,
you're, you're hyper aware of what's happening, if you are faced with an
emergency, you're not gonna get stuck in some fight, flight or freeze mode.
You're gonna be able to think about how I'm gonna get out of that.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
So yeah, healthy, healthy anxiety allows strategizing,
Eric Robertson: right?
Rupert Isaacson: But if you have unhealthy anxiety, something like this, emdr,
Eric Robertson: it overwhelms you.
It overwhelms you, and you can't think, and you can't
figure out what you need to do.
Rupert Isaacson: It is interesting.
I was going through a really anxious period and I know someone
who does EMDR and I said, hit me.
Let's see if this works.
Which was a slightly different, you, you know, it's a slightly different
one where you are doing bilateral stuff with your eyes and, and, it
took my anxiety about this particular thing from a 10 to a two in about
10 minutes.
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And I was quite shocked at the simplicity of it actually.
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And reassured,
I know that you need to wrap this up shortly, that you actually, it's the
middle of your working day and you have a client that you need to go and see.
Do you have any closing advice for men, young or old or fathers or, and
people, men going through conflict, whether it's internal or external?
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Leave us with your elder advice.
What to do.
Eric Robertson: What
Rupert Isaacson: to do.
Well,
Eric Robertson: I would say this when we look at the things that actually help men.
There are things like learning how to normalize emotions without
forcing verbal vulnerability.
That's, that's difficult for a lot of men.
Rupert Isaacson: How does one tread that line though?
Because how do you not become emotionally vulnerable when you
Eric Robertson: Well, that they may at some point, but when you're working
with men, your role is just to normalize whatever emotions they're feeling.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Eric Robertson: And with, without trying to force them into, I see
vulnerable position focus on function goals and relief rather than feelings
talk initially when you're with them, as you, as you pointed out, sometimes
talk therapy just doesn't work.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
And it's interesting too, I think as a bloke, I definitely like to be focused
on solutions and strategizing solutions.
Eric Robertson: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Allow parallel processing.
This is the talking while doing.
That we talked about.
I think that's real important.
Reduce the shame by validating effort.
Not the weakness, by not talking about the weakness, but
validating somebody's effort.
And gosh, you showed up today.
I'm, I'm really glad to see you good thing, that sort of thing.
And then frame help as skill building, not ne necessarily pathology.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Eric Robertson: You're here to learn how to cope.
I want to help you.
I want to give you the skills that you can use to help you cope with that, with
this situation, rather than saying, well, you're, you're depressed and we need to
figure out how to treat the depression.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay?
Yeah.
All of those resonate with me.
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Men don't need less empathy.
They often need empathy delivered differently.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Yeah.
I guess we're all a bit autistic.
Yeah.
We learn differently.
It's so true.
And because even though Yeah, psychotherapy, that whole field started
with men, Freud young, as you say, it's become a largely female dominated
field and perhaps the approaches need to be modified for our gender.
Yeah, yeah.
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
So work in progress.
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
Well, I look forward to seeing how it develops.
Eric, thank you posted so much.
This has been
Eric Robertson: You bet,
Rupert Isaacson: extremely insightful.
Eric Robertson: Thank you for having me.
Rupert Isaacson: My pleasure.
I shall see you in Austin, Texas.
Eric Robertson: I'll see you in April and Austin.
Rupert Isaacson: Now, before you go, just the plugs.
How do people contact you?
How do they find you?
Eric Robertson: Www.robertsonct.com.
It's my website.
Rupert Isaacson: Robertson ct.com?
Eric Robertson: Yes, as in Robertson Counseling and therapy.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
And if people want to reach out for you for, as a client, but also for
mentorship, all of that stuff, do you offer trainings of any kind?
Do you offer workshops?
Eric Robertson: I don't, but I'm actually with encouragement from
somebody that I've been talking with over the last couple of months thinking
about writing a book on divorce, coaching oriented both towards clients
and towards people that wanna do it.
Rupert Isaacson: I would encourage you to write that book.
Yeah, absolutely.
I would,
I would also encourage you to, to create some workshops and retreats around this,
Eric Robertson: yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: I think there's a, a massive need and I think that
the outcomes for families and the kids involved in all of that could
be very positively impacted by
Eric Robertson: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: What you're doing.
So thank
Eric Robertson: you.
Well, perhaps I'll start a podcast.
Rupert Isaacson: Hey, great idea.
Get it
Eric Robertson: out.
Alright.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, my friend.
Eric Robertson: Thank you,
Rupert Isaacson: Ruper.
I'll see you soon.
Bye-Bye.
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