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Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for joining us.

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Welcome to Live Free, Ride Free.

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I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New
York Times bestselling author of

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The Horseboy and The Long Ride Home.

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Before I jump in with today's guest, I
want to say a huge thank you to you, our

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audience, for helping to make this happen.

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If you like what we do here,
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please go to rupertisaacson.com.

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So now let's jump in.

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Welcome back to Live Free, ride Free.

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My guest today is Eric Robertson,
who was a family lawyer, a read into

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that divorce read into that warring
family, civil war within families,

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frequently, sadly, and has now
become a family therapist in Austin.

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Kind of drawing on that experience
from the trenches of trying to resolve

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conflict rather than exacerbate
conflict, and has now taken that into

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work specifically in the male domain.

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We've had a feminist movement over
the last century, but we haven't

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really had any equivalent movement for
males, and I think we're seeing the.

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Results of that in both my
generation of males and the younger

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generations of males as well.

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There is a, there is a, a sort of
disorientation perhaps, I think

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is the easiest way to put it.

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So I'm really intrigued to have
Eric come and give us his insights

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over a lifetime of working in
the field of conflict resolution.

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So if you've, if you've been
through a divorce, if you've gone

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through a divorce, if you're going
through a divorce, listen up.

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If you are a, a male who
feels, what's my place?

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How, how am I even relevant these days?

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Listen up.

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Eric has a lot to say on these things.

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So, Eric, thank you for coming on.

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Can you just give us a bit of a
bio on, you know, who you are and

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Eric Robertson: how you've arrived

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at

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Rupert Isaacson: this point?

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Eric Robertson: Well, I've, I've made
a securous route to where I am today.

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I started out years ago thinking
I wanted to be a psychologist.

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I was in a graduate program working toward
a PhD, and I was married at the time

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and my wife got accepted to law school.

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So I took my master's in psychology at
that point and moved with her to Austin,

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Texas so she could go to law school.

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I used to hang around at the law
school with her thinking, well,

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you know, this is pretty good gig.

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Maybe I ought to try this.

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So right after she finished, I went
to law school, and from day one

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after I got my license, I started
practicing divorce work and family

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law work, and did that for 33 years.

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And there was something about the
conflict and everything that's going

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on in a divorce that at some point
made me rethink where I was headed.

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And made me think about
the, what had taken me into

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psychology in the first place.

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So I went back to school and, and got
another master's degree in clinical

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mental health counseling and am now
practicing as a licensed professional

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counselor associate in Austin, Texas
with a focus on doing work with men and

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some marriage and family counseling.

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You know, seeing how people act in
divorces was really eye-opening to me.

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As you can imagine in your listeners,
probably can imagine men and women go

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through that prop a process differently.

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And what I saw was pretty
normal from my perspective with

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regards to women, but with men.

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They weren't doing a very
good job going through it.

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They weren't expressing the emotion
that women did at the process,

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and it really made me think
about what's going on with men.

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And that kinda led to my interest
in, in doing, doing the kind of

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work that I, I do now with men.

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And I wanna share with your listeners
some facts that may surprise them

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or, or may, they may not, if they're,
they're going through this kind of

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process or if I've lived some of this.

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But as anybody that's watched the news
knows, boys and men are experiencing

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higher levels of loneliness and
mental health risks than ever before.

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Some of these facts come from the
American Institute of Boys and Men.

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But 15% of young men have recently
reported not having a close friend.

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That's a fivefold increase
from what it was in 1990.

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Now, when I grew up and when you
grew up, we probably had mates

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and friends that we were close
to, and we developed friendships.

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That's not happening now.

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And there's, you know, there's a
number of reasons we can talk about

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but that, that, that doesn't happen.

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And, and the question is, why is that
important as we look at what's going

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on with, with men, and the reason it's
important is that men are four times

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more likely to die by suicide than women.

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That, and when I learned that that's a, I
thought that's a pretty astounding fact.

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In, in 2023, it was reported that
80% of suicides were men, and

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that men were far less likely to
seek any kind of help for that.

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Than, than women are.

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And you think about that.

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So in 2023, it's reported that
39,000 men died from suicide.

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In the US worldwide
that number was 535,000.

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That's an astounding number and it shows
what's going on in our society with men.

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Loneliness and isolation may seem sad
to some people, but their health risks

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young men often feel disconnected
from their community and emotional.

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They have no emotional support.

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And that contributes to anxiety
and depression and all sorts

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of other mental health issues.

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So, and I wanted to know why is
it that men don't get out there

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and get the help they need?

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And I think there's, a
number of reasons for that.

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Statistically, 67% of teenage boys between
the ages of 15 and 17 reported struggling

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with something emotional, but didn't
feel they needed any professional help.

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70% didn't even know what a
mental health professional was.

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So there's a lack of education in our
society, in American society especially

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about what to do when, when you're having
mental health issues when it comes to men.

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We don't, we don't, you know, we,
we, we recognize that in women,

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but we don't recognize that in men.

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A lot of it's because men show
up differently than women do.

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When there's mental health issues
society, societal messages play into that.

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The Man up, men don't cry.

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Work through it.

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Just muscle through it.

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Those are, those are the messages
that, that I got growing up.

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And I I suspect you did too, Rupert.

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Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,

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Eric Robertson: I, and did, didn't help.

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Didn't help.

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Rupert Isaacson: Why?

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Eric Robertson: The other thing It's

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Rupert Isaacson: okay.

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Go ahead.

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Yeah,

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Eric Robertson: yeah.

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The other thing is, it was surprising
to me as, as I went into this new

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line of work, is that at least in this
country, mental health professionals

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are overwhelmingly female dominated.

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Ma men make up a minority of, of
the practitioners, psychologists,

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psychiatrists, therapists, counselors
I think something like 26% of mental

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health professionals currently are men.

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26%.

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And I don't know about you, but
the likelihood that, that I'm

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gonna go in and lay out everything
that's going bad in my life to a.

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Another female is probably not
attractive to a lot of men.

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Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

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Question.

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What is the reason why many of these
men or younger men don't even know

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what a mental health professional is?

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That's surprising to me because
it's so much a part of the

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conversation on social media.

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Social media is all about
mental health, right?

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Eric Robertson: Right.

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Rupert Isaacson: Everyone talks
about their mental health.

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Given that there's that exposure, how does
that, how does that knowledge gap happen?

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Eric Robertson: Well, I think
there's a couple reasons for that.

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I think the traditionally

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men have been.

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Trained not to think of about problems
that they have that might require a

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mental health professional so they
don't learn about that sort of thing.

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I think that is changing.

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You're right in, in social media.

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That's a, that's a big deal.

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And it's, it's changing somewhat, but
I think that the, the messages that,

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that go out in social media about
mental health issues and where to

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find help for many, many years were
oriented towards, towards females.

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And as you mentioned earlier on, you
know, we've had a feminism movement that's

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been going on for a number of years.

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And, and I don't have anything bad
to say about that, I think in, in,

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Rupert Isaacson: yeah, no,
it's a necessary thing.

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Sure.

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Eric Robertson: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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It's a necessary thing.

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But men have been left behind and so the
messages often are oriented towards women.

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Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

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Eric Robertson: Not towards men.

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And the other thing is, is, as
I'll point out a little bit later,

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the, the, the issues that men have.

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Although they may be the same
as the issues that women have,

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they show up in a different way.

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Rupert Isaacson: Can you
elucidate on that a little bit?

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How, how do they show up differently?

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Eric Robertson: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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The one of the things that that I think
people don't recognize is that there is

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a difference between men and women in
terms of how they represent themselves

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when mental health issues come up.

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The, one of the one of the things that men
tend to do is externalize their emotions,

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whereas women tend to internalize those.

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And for women that, that
shows up as the, the emotional

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outbursts and the psychological.

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Feelings of being extremely
depressed and sad were for men.

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It, it, it shows up in a different way.

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Men show up the psychological
psychologically, they

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show up as irritable.

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So, they may show a lot of anger.

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They have a lot of emotional
numbness or flatness.

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We've all heard men, especially
boys, when you ask 'em what's

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wrong, they'll say nothing.

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It's fine.

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I'm fine.

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Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

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Eric Robertson: How are you doing?

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Well, I'm, I'm doing okay.

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Or I'm, I'm angry that that's,
that's what you get from men.

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They're, they're, they tend to be
withdrawn from their relationships

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and activities when they get
depressed rather than showing signs

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of depression they, they turn that
into overworking and maybe compulsive

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productivity and inability to rest.

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There's increased risk taking by men.

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Okay.

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Which you don't see in, in women.

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ESCAP.

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I've definitely

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Rupert Isaacson: been guilty of that.

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Yeah,

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Eric Robertson: yeah,

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Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

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Eric Robertson: Escapism all the,
all the gaming, the porn the doom,

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scrolling, isolation, those are
all things that manifest for men in

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that's much different than with women.

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Do

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Rupert Isaacson: you not feel that
women also though, I mean, I've known

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women who've been going through mental
health struggles who've absolutely

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been extremely irritable and who have
also used those same escapist tactics

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the exact same ones you described.

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Eric Robertson: Right.

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Rupert Isaacson: So
what is the difference?

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Because I, I do think one could say
the same about both genders there.

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Eric Robertson: Well, I, I think
you could, and I think that

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with the advent of social media.

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And artificial intelligence mm-hmm.

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Everything that's happening to
us digitally, that perhaps those

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behaviors are moving closer together.

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But generally and historically, I think
that men have responded differently.

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And you know, I, I use
depression as a good example.

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With women, usually you get a
persistent sadness or tearfulness.

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Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

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Eric Robertson: You have
excessive worry or rumination.

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They show signs of guilt and worthlessness
and self blame, fear of abandonment.

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Mm-hmm.

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Those are not how men exhibit
their depression generally.

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They, they generally exhibit
that in a, in a different way.

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How, how do

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Rupert Isaacson: they, how do men
normally exhibit it, would you say?

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Eric Robertson: Well, they exhibit
it with increased conflict with

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their partners and families.

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Okay.

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Emotional distance or checking out
difficult tolerating, perceived criticism

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feeling misunderstood, but unable to
explain why they're, they feel that way.

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Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

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Eric Robertson: You know, they,
they talk about being a burden.

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They, they start giving away possessions.

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When it gets to an extreme you
know, they have, they manifest it

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in physical symptoms like headaches,
stomach problems, chronic pain, sleep

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problems, fatigue that sort of thing.

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Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

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Eric Robertson: Women are
just, it's more externalized.

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And with men, women,
it's more internalized.

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Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

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Mm-hmm.

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But you say that the suicide, figures
are higher for men at this stage.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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Eric Robertson: Yeah.

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Rupert Isaacson: So that's so interesting.

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So, yeah.

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'cause I, I'm just thinking if, if
I was perhaps not male listening

00:14:25.890 --> 00:14:27.150
to this thinking, well, hold on.

00:14:27.150 --> 00:14:30.030
You know, I mean, both genders go
through all this kind of thing.

00:14:30.510 --> 00:14:31.320
Okay.

00:14:31.320 --> 00:14:33.510
You know, it's, we should, yes.

00:14:33.510 --> 00:14:37.020
Perhaps, you know, help men out
more, but I think it's good to

00:14:37.020 --> 00:14:38.340
bring it down to a bottom line.

00:14:38.880 --> 00:14:47.100
If more men are killing themselves,
then clearly we've got a problem.

00:14:47.970 --> 00:14:51.030
Are more people are more men killing
themselves than they used to.

00:14:51.150 --> 00:14:52.290
That's the, the next thing.

00:14:52.890 --> 00:14:54.720
And do we have any
statistics to back that up?

00:14:54.720 --> 00:14:55.410
That you know of?

00:14:56.200 --> 00:14:57.250
Eric Robertson: I'm
sure they're out there.

00:14:57.250 --> 00:15:01.660
I don't know of those I've, I've kind
of focused on the current, current

00:15:01.660 --> 00:15:04.360
state of men's lives right now.

00:15:04.450 --> 00:15:04.720
Uh mm-hmm.

00:15:04.895 --> 00:15:08.560
I think there's always probably
been a skew towards more

00:15:08.560 --> 00:15:11.020
suicides in men than women.

00:15:11.620 --> 00:15:11.950
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:15:12.340 --> 00:15:14.950
Eric Robertson: But that, that's something
that would be interesting because it's

00:15:14.950 --> 00:15:15.640
Rupert Isaacson: so interesting.

00:15:15.640 --> 00:15:21.700
I, I know so many people who've made
suicide attempts, but when I think about

00:15:21.700 --> 00:15:24.580
who they are, they're almost all female.

00:15:25.210 --> 00:15:25.600
Eric Robertson: Yeah.

00:15:25.900 --> 00:15:31.360
Rupert Isaacson: The suicides
that I know of that did it,

00:15:34.570 --> 00:15:37.810
just doing a little check here.

00:15:39.910 --> 00:15:40.690
I do think, yeah.

00:15:40.720 --> 00:15:41.800
I think most of them are men.

00:15:41.890 --> 00:15:42.580
It's true.

00:15:43.330 --> 00:15:45.280
And what's interesting too is
that some of them were men who

00:15:45.280 --> 00:15:46.780
were outwardly quite successful.

00:15:47.290 --> 00:15:47.380
Mm-hmm.

00:15:47.620 --> 00:15:50.350
You know, it wasn't that they
were necessarily lost boys in

00:15:50.350 --> 00:15:51.700
their mom's basement gaming.

00:15:52.810 --> 00:15:56.230
They were, they were men who
one thought, well, hold on.

00:15:56.290 --> 00:16:01.210
You know, successful life
ticked most of the boxes.

00:16:01.975 --> 00:16:02.905
In your therapy.

00:16:02.995 --> 00:16:07.555
So in both your family law practice
and your now in your therapy practice,

00:16:07.555 --> 00:16:12.445
you must have come across many of these
types of men to the fact that someone

00:16:12.445 --> 00:16:16.735
could even afford a divorced lawyer
means that they've reached an economic

00:16:16.735 --> 00:16:19.915
bracket where that's even possible, right?

00:16:20.425 --> 00:16:20.515
Sure.

00:16:20.515 --> 00:16:21.385
Laws are not cheap.

00:16:22.045 --> 00:16:29.245
And then now that you are a therapist,
you're kind of presumably often

00:16:29.245 --> 00:16:30.685
dealing with the same demographic.

00:16:32.035 --> 00:16:36.235
Why are successful men so messed up?

00:16:38.905 --> 00:16:42.295
Eric Robertson: I think they're a product
of their own success in some respects.

00:16:42.335 --> 00:16:42.725
There's.

00:16:43.850 --> 00:16:47.810
I think one of the things you have to
look at is what got them to that point?

00:16:47.840 --> 00:16:49.970
What drove them to be successful?

00:16:49.970 --> 00:16:55.040
What is it about their upbringing,
their, their childhood, their life

00:16:55.040 --> 00:16:59.600
in general that pushes them and
drives them towards that success?

00:16:59.810 --> 00:17:02.960
What is it that they're in their
life that they're trying to fill?

00:17:03.290 --> 00:17:06.830
And oftentimes what you
see is that these men

00:17:08.960 --> 00:17:14.660
succeed and they become successful,
but they're not filling that hole.

00:17:15.110 --> 00:17:17.780
They're not getting what
they're really looking for.

00:17:18.300 --> 00:17:23.510
Whether that's validation from,
from people that are important

00:17:23.510 --> 00:17:26.330
to them or whatever it is.

00:17:26.720 --> 00:17:27.470
And is,

00:17:27.470 --> 00:17:29.240
Rupert Isaacson: is that, is
that a, a thing that really comes

00:17:29.240 --> 00:17:31.700
up a lot validation from people
that are important to them?

00:17:32.270 --> 00:17:32.750
Eric Robertson: Yes.

00:17:32.840 --> 00:17:33.230
Yeah.

00:17:33.530 --> 00:17:35.750
Rupert Isaacson: Talk to me
about that talk that, that, that,

00:17:35.900 --> 00:17:38.390
that's not something I think we
should just let go in passing.

00:17:39.440 --> 00:17:40.700
What's I express.

00:17:41.480 --> 00:17:42.050
Eric Robertson: I'm sorry,

00:17:42.380 --> 00:17:42.650
Rupert Isaacson: what?

00:17:42.650 --> 00:17:44.300
What are they expressing
when they say that?

00:17:44.600 --> 00:17:44.870
And

00:17:44.870 --> 00:17:45.080
Eric Robertson: they

00:17:45.345 --> 00:17:45.635
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,

00:17:45.640 --> 00:17:46.550
Eric Robertson: yeah, yeah.

00:17:46.550 --> 00:17:49.220
They're, they're expressing that
they're, they're doing all this

00:17:49.220 --> 00:17:52.010
and, and sometimes it's misplaced,
but they're doing all this.

00:17:52.250 --> 00:17:57.810
And the people that are important
to them aren't showing them the

00:17:57.810 --> 00:18:00.390
validation that they think they deserve,

00:18:00.660 --> 00:18:01.020
Rupert Isaacson: right?

00:18:01.020 --> 00:18:05.520
Eric Robertson: And oftentimes the people
around them aren't doing that because this

00:18:05.520 --> 00:18:13.590
person is working 24 hours a day almost
to succeed, and they are letting their

00:18:13.680 --> 00:18:16.410
significant relationships fall apart.

00:18:16.440 --> 00:18:20.760
They're not spending the time necessary
to maintain those relationships

00:18:20.910 --> 00:18:22.680
or to grow those relationships.

00:18:23.130 --> 00:18:27.150
And so they interpret that when people,
their spouse or their family or their

00:18:27.150 --> 00:18:33.920
friends don't spend a lot of time
throwing admiration at them as a lack

00:18:33.920 --> 00:18:38.560
of validation when in fact they're
probably too busy to receive it.

00:18:39.535 --> 00:18:40.495
Most of the time,

00:18:40.855 --> 00:18:43.255
Rupert Isaacson: have you suffered from
any of this yourself, would you say?

00:18:44.095 --> 00:18:47.105
Eric Robertson: I think there
was a time when that I had those

00:18:47.105 --> 00:18:51.275
feelings as well when I was at the
height of my career as a lawyer.

00:18:51.725 --> 00:18:55.355
And you know, success is a tricky thing.

00:18:55.965 --> 00:18:59.025
You can get to the point when
you're successful that you start

00:18:59.025 --> 00:19:01.755
to believe, if you'll pardon the
expression, your own bullshit.

00:19:02.595 --> 00:19:07.575
And I, I think that, that that has some
negative impacts on my relationship

00:19:07.575 --> 00:19:12.255
with my wife at that point, and
on how I relate to my daughter.

00:19:13.025 --> 00:19:13.685
So yeah.

00:19:13.685 --> 00:19:14.045
Absolutely.

00:19:14.045 --> 00:19:17.315
Rupert Isaacson: What would you say
in, in your own life, could you put

00:19:17.315 --> 00:19:21.905
a number of years on that period and
at what point did you then notice?

00:19:23.260 --> 00:19:25.325
I think, and then from
noticing to doing something?

00:19:25.475 --> 00:19:25.805
Eric Robertson: Yeah.

00:19:25.865 --> 00:19:26.255
Yeah.

00:19:27.005 --> 00:19:32.135
I think that there was probably a, a
period of about 10 years when I was at

00:19:32.135 --> 00:19:37.205
the height of what I would say was a
successful career as a divorce lawyer.

00:19:37.835 --> 00:19:43.745
And I was more focused on maintaining
that image than really spending time

00:19:44.325 --> 00:19:49.335
outside of my work environment listening
to what's going on with my wife and

00:19:49.335 --> 00:19:50.925
what's going on with my daughter.

00:19:51.375 --> 00:19:56.505
And I think that that wasn't until maybe
about five years ago when I started

00:19:56.505 --> 00:20:01.505
thinking seriously about making a change
in careers that, that it really hit me.

00:20:03.125 --> 00:20:04.670
And I think that was one of
the reasons why, why, why

00:20:04.670 --> 00:20:05.105
Rupert Isaacson: did it hit you?

00:20:05.105 --> 00:20:06.755
Like how did, how was it that you noticed?

00:20:06.755 --> 00:20:09.005
Why, why did you think Actually

00:20:09.005 --> 00:20:10.235
Eric Robertson: I had a, yeah.

00:20:10.235 --> 00:20:13.425
I had a kind of a dissatisfaction
with what I was doing.

00:20:13.815 --> 00:20:14.085
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:20:14.165 --> 00:20:17.495
Eric Robertson: As, as you
know, I see clients all I well,

00:20:17.495 --> 00:20:19.235
seeing clients all day long and.

00:20:19.575 --> 00:20:24.215
Was dealing with not only my client,
but the attorneys on the other side.

00:20:24.605 --> 00:20:29.435
And I, I started personalizing what was
happening in my cases, which is a very

00:20:29.435 --> 00:20:31.085
dangerous thing for a lawyer to do.

00:20:31.735 --> 00:20:33.505
You know, you, I like my clients.

00:20:33.505 --> 00:20:39.495
I always like my clients, but you
have to keep a distance between what

00:20:39.495 --> 00:20:43.155
you're doing for your client and
your relationship with your client.

00:20:43.455 --> 00:20:43.845
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

00:20:43.905 --> 00:20:48.425
Eric Robertson: And I, I started taking
every every accusation that came across

00:20:48.425 --> 00:20:50.075
from the other attorney personally.

00:20:50.905 --> 00:20:51.745
Not only You hadn't

00:20:51.745 --> 00:20:52.585
Rupert Isaacson: done that before.

00:20:53.215 --> 00:20:53.605
Eric Robertson: Pardon?

00:20:53.875 --> 00:20:55.370
Rupert Isaacson: And you hadn't
done that before, earlier in your

00:20:55.370 --> 00:20:55.490
Eric Robertson: career?

00:20:55.490 --> 00:20:56.395
I hadn't done that before.

00:20:56.395 --> 00:20:56.755
No.

00:20:56.760 --> 00:20:57.570
You know, for the first, why did

00:20:57.570 --> 00:20:58.290
Rupert Isaacson: it creep up on you?

00:20:59.050 --> 00:20:59.490
Eric Robertson: I don't know.

00:20:59.870 --> 00:21:04.015
For the first 15 years, it was just
learning the process of being a good

00:21:04.015 --> 00:21:09.245
lawyer and going into court and doing
my thing and doing it, almost wrote by

00:21:09.245 --> 00:21:14.135
memory, you just had this muscle memory
of what to do in a case and how to do it.

00:21:14.585 --> 00:21:24.955
And it was not, not uncommon for me to
get bad things from other attorneys about

00:21:24.955 --> 00:21:29.545
my clients, and I would just kind of sh
shuffle those off and not think about it.

00:21:29.575 --> 00:21:33.985
But there was a point where I really
started taking that personally, and

00:21:33.985 --> 00:21:37.735
it was almost like the accusation
they're making against my client

00:21:38.095 --> 00:21:40.255
was a personal reflection of me.

00:21:43.645 --> 00:21:50.725
Rupert Isaacson: I wonder why that became
that way if you could, because I, I,

00:21:50.730 --> 00:21:54.685
I should imagine that there must be a
lot of men and we, we, we are talking

00:21:54.685 --> 00:21:56.605
about men at this point in middle age.

00:21:57.220 --> 00:21:59.790
And I think we should you know,
after this, we should, we should

00:21:59.790 --> 00:22:02.250
begin to talk about young, the
younger generation too, but just

00:22:02.250 --> 00:22:03.450
staying where we are for a moment.

00:22:03.540 --> 00:22:07.890
So the majority of your clients would've
been men and middle age, or, and women.

00:22:08.490 --> 00:22:14.940
Do you think there's something in
that age bracket that brought you

00:22:14.940 --> 00:22:19.470
to this point where suddenly it
was personalized, suddenly you were

00:22:19.470 --> 00:22:21.960
taking it like a, a personal attack?

00:22:21.960 --> 00:22:22.260
Yeah,

00:22:22.620 --> 00:22:23.400
Eric Robertson: yeah, yeah.

00:22:23.740 --> 00:22:25.630
Well, it goes back to what I said earlier.

00:22:25.630 --> 00:22:30.950
There was, I was in this mindset
that I was going to be one of the

00:22:30.950 --> 00:22:35.510
best divorce lawyers in Austin,
Texas, if not the state of Texas.

00:22:35.930 --> 00:22:42.160
And I got myself involved in not only
state organizations that supported that

00:22:42.280 --> 00:22:44.860
mindset, but national organizations.

00:22:44.860 --> 00:22:48.920
I mean, I got to be a member of
the American Academy of Matrimonial

00:22:48.920 --> 00:22:50.390
Lawyers, which is this group of.

00:22:51.185 --> 00:22:57.035
Less than 2000 of the best family
law lawyers in the United States.

00:22:57.155 --> 00:22:57.395
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:22:57.485 --> 00:23:01.295
Eric Robertson: And I got to be
on the, on the board for the Texas

00:23:01.295 --> 00:23:04.535
chapter of that, and the president
of that and all that kind of stuff

00:23:04.535 --> 00:23:06.275
was going to my head and I'm thinking

00:23:06.275 --> 00:23:06.725
Rupert Isaacson: basis.

00:23:06.935 --> 00:23:07.145
Yeah.

00:23:07.175 --> 00:23:12.325
Eric Robertson: Gosh, I'm, I'm some
level one of the best of the best.

00:23:12.685 --> 00:23:17.725
And again, you start believing that stuff
and it drives your life and you, you

00:23:17.725 --> 00:23:24.175
think, okay, what's the next thing I can
do to make it even better to show even

00:23:24.175 --> 00:23:27.205
more success at, at, at my chosen career?

00:23:27.745 --> 00:23:29.710
And it, it takes a hold of you.

00:23:30.310 --> 00:23:32.430
Rupert Isaacson: Do you think
though that relationships are

00:23:32.430 --> 00:23:33.810
always more than one person?

00:23:34.140 --> 00:23:36.900
So do you think that also your
wife and your daughter played

00:23:36.900 --> 00:23:38.130
into that to some degree?

00:23:38.230 --> 00:23:40.030
Were there expectations on you?

00:23:40.880 --> 00:23:41.870
Was love.

00:23:42.320 --> 00:23:48.530
To some degree con conditional to
you showing up as this sort of,

00:23:48.590 --> 00:23:50.060
you know, millionaire provider?

00:23:50.990 --> 00:23:55.520
Or did you just perceive that it might
be, or was there even some truth to that?

00:23:55.520 --> 00:23:56.300
Were you all

00:23:56.390 --> 00:23:56.540
Eric Robertson: Yeah.

00:23:56.690 --> 00:23:58.310
Rupert Isaacson: Playing
into that to some degree?

00:23:58.820 --> 00:23:59.180
Eric Robertson: No.

00:23:59.180 --> 00:24:00.260
I, I really don't.

00:24:00.260 --> 00:24:07.200
I think I was to to use a much
overused term, I was caught up in

00:24:07.200 --> 00:24:10.110
my own narcissism at some level.

00:24:10.680 --> 00:24:10.950
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:24:11.850 --> 00:24:12.420
Eric Robertson: And

00:24:12.470 --> 00:24:14.990
Rupert Isaacson: it's so interesting
that you say that because I, I've

00:24:14.990 --> 00:24:18.950
known you for some years and I last,
I think narcissist is, is the, is the

00:24:18.950 --> 00:24:20.810
last word I would use to describe you.

00:24:21.530 --> 00:24:21.920
Eric Robertson: Yeah.

00:24:22.730 --> 00:24:28.495
Well I think you, you, you came along
at a time when I had decided that all

00:24:28.495 --> 00:24:31.585
of that wasn't really what I wanted.

00:24:32.290 --> 00:24:36.070
And of course the other thing that
really helped me was I had a good mentor.

00:24:36.460 --> 00:24:37.390
You, you've met him?

00:24:37.810 --> 00:24:38.530
Rupert Isaacson: I do know him.

00:24:38.620 --> 00:24:38.950
Yeah.

00:24:38.950 --> 00:24:44.060
Eric Robertson: And and, and he was
he was always there reminding me that

00:24:44.090 --> 00:24:47.780
the, this is, this is not who you are.

00:24:47.780 --> 00:24:49.070
This is what you do.

00:24:49.940 --> 00:24:53.770
And there are other things in
life that are more important

00:24:54.310 --> 00:24:56.530
than than, than being the best.

00:24:56.530 --> 00:24:56.980
Talk to us

00:24:57.160 --> 00:24:59.070
Rupert Isaacson: a little bit about Tom.

00:24:59.260 --> 00:25:04.840
Because I think, I think one of the things
I'd like to go to in this is mentorship.

00:25:04.840 --> 00:25:10.630
I think mentorship is something that
every human needs, like we need oxygen.

00:25:11.140 --> 00:25:16.210
And I think particularly for men,
it's kind of fallen by the wayside.

00:25:16.990 --> 00:25:18.220
Talk to us about this mental,

00:25:18.730 --> 00:25:19.150
Eric Robertson: yeah.

00:25:19.175 --> 00:25:19.465
Yeah.

00:25:19.780 --> 00:25:26.025
So, when I started practicing family
law, I practiced with my wife.

00:25:26.115 --> 00:25:27.285
We, she was a lawyer at the time.

00:25:27.285 --> 00:25:32.275
We practiced together for about seven
years and we had an opportunity to go

00:25:32.275 --> 00:25:37.725
to work for another family lawyer in, in
Austin, Texas, who had made us the offer.

00:25:37.785 --> 00:25:41.535
He was pretty well known as well, been
around for a number of years and said,

00:25:41.535 --> 00:25:43.185
look, you guys come to work for me.

00:25:43.525 --> 00:25:48.125
I got all these cases coming in, you work
'em, and I'll take a percentage of it.

00:25:48.845 --> 00:25:55.035
And I had just tried a case against
Tom in a court just up the road.

00:25:55.275 --> 00:25:58.715
And he, he kicked my butt pretty well.

00:25:59.675 --> 00:26:03.635
And so to her credit, my wife said, you
know, before we even think about this

00:26:03.635 --> 00:26:09.335
offer from this other attorney, why don't
you ask Tom about that and ask him about

00:26:09.335 --> 00:26:14.195
this guy, and if this is somebody that
we want to essentially join forces with.

00:26:14.195 --> 00:26:14.975
And so I did.

00:26:15.455 --> 00:26:19.745
And he, he, you know, as
gracious as he is, he, he came

00:26:19.745 --> 00:26:21.335
and picked me up at my office.

00:26:22.025 --> 00:26:26.285
When I called him and took me to lunch
and I asked questions about this other

00:26:26.285 --> 00:26:28.085
lawyer, and he answered 'em honestly.

00:26:28.505 --> 00:26:29.585
And then he drove me back.

00:26:29.585 --> 00:26:35.285
And when he dropped me off, he said
before you respond to this lawyer I want

00:26:35.285 --> 00:26:38.045
you to think about it for, for 48 hours.

00:26:38.875 --> 00:26:42.235
Don't rush in there and pick up the
phone and say yes or no or whatever.

00:26:42.235 --> 00:26:43.135
Just think about it.

00:26:43.645 --> 00:26:44.665
And I did.

00:26:44.755 --> 00:26:49.475
And less than 24 hours later, he called
me back and said I wanna offer you

00:26:49.475 --> 00:26:51.815
a job to come over and work with me.

00:26:51.815 --> 00:26:57.155
And, and my other partner at that time,
he had one other partner and Tom Practice

00:26:57.155 --> 00:26:59.375
law with that partner and his daughter.

00:27:00.125 --> 00:27:04.255
And so, you know, I, I talked to
my wife about that and we decided

00:27:04.255 --> 00:27:05.665
that's what I wanted to do.

00:27:06.415 --> 00:27:13.465
And it was because he was
an incredible gentleman.

00:27:14.020 --> 00:27:18.540
The way he dealt with people including
people on the other side of cases.

00:27:18.900 --> 00:27:23.580
I tried a case against him that, that one,
I, I mentioned it was very contentious.

00:27:23.820 --> 00:27:28.600
I had a very bad client and
he was incredibly gracious to

00:27:28.600 --> 00:27:30.370
me through that whole process.

00:27:30.860 --> 00:27:35.730
He was able to make the distinction
between my terrible client and the

00:27:35.730 --> 00:27:37.290
lawyer who was representing him.

00:27:38.070 --> 00:27:42.430
And that, you know, when I came
over and, and, and started working

00:27:42.430 --> 00:27:48.340
with him it was, it was just
like stepping into another world.

00:27:48.860 --> 00:27:51.350
It, everything didn't
have to be adversarial.

00:27:51.630 --> 00:27:55.890
He mentored me on how to deal with
difficult attorneys on the other side,

00:27:55.890 --> 00:28:00.480
how to deal with difficult clients,
how to deal with difficult judges.

00:28:00.900 --> 00:28:06.870
And that was probably the reason I
rose to the level I did in the family

00:28:06.870 --> 00:28:09.180
law practice because of his mentoring.

00:28:10.950 --> 00:28:12.990
Rupert Isaacson: I think specifically
what you're, you're talking about

00:28:12.990 --> 00:28:15.060
here is conflict resolution, right?

00:28:15.390 --> 00:28:15.510
Right.

00:28:15.510 --> 00:28:18.960
And we're so used to thinking
of particularly divorces as

00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:22.200
defacto conflict escalations.

00:28:22.300 --> 00:28:23.380
Couple of questions.

00:28:23.920 --> 00:28:26.680
First question, what
makes a terrible client?

00:28:26.710 --> 00:28:27.970
You said, I had a terrible client.

00:28:28.390 --> 00:28:33.685
Is a terrible client, someone who,
who's going in wanting conflict?

00:28:33.785 --> 00:28:38.770
Is, is, is And that is, is that kind
of what makes a terrible client?

00:28:39.340 --> 00:28:39.700
Eric Robertson: Yeah.

00:28:40.150 --> 00:28:46.270
Well, let me tell you what, for me,
made a terrible client early on in

00:28:46.270 --> 00:28:48.280
my career and how that's changed.

00:28:48.650 --> 00:28:49.910
A terrible client.

00:28:51.320 --> 00:28:56.710
Early on for me was one that was
not open to taking advice that

00:28:56.760 --> 00:29:02.070
did things that just the opposite
of how I advised them to do 'em.

00:29:02.410 --> 00:29:07.870
That created bad facts all along the
way, including during their divorce.

00:29:08.120 --> 00:29:12.410
They would continue to behave poorly
during the divorce, even though you'd sit

00:29:12.410 --> 00:29:16.370
down and explain to 'em that this isn't
gonna come out very well if you continue

00:29:16.370 --> 00:29:17.990
doing the kind of behavior you're doing.

00:29:18.330 --> 00:29:21.330
Usually the a bad client's
just one that doesn't listen.

00:29:21.655 --> 00:29:21.945
Rupert Isaacson: Okay?

00:29:23.670 --> 00:29:29.100
But that's still, that has to come from,
like, you then have to ask the question,

00:29:29.100 --> 00:29:30.570
why, why doesn't that person listen?

00:29:30.570 --> 00:29:30.780
Right?

00:29:31.190 --> 00:29:34.040
If they've hired you, they're, they're
spending all this money on you.

00:29:34.310 --> 00:29:37.400
They know deep down that you're
trying to act in their best interest,

00:29:37.640 --> 00:29:38.000
Eric Robertson: right?

00:29:38.170 --> 00:29:41.020
Rupert Isaacson: So therefore, if
they're not following your advice

00:29:41.020 --> 00:29:44.620
on a kind of pathological level,
not perhaps on an impulsive.

00:29:45.400 --> 00:29:51.670
Angry in that moment, passionate,
you know, expression of pain thing.

00:29:51.670 --> 00:29:58.630
But consistently then surely,
does that not mean that what

00:29:58.630 --> 00:29:59.710
they're after is conflict?

00:30:01.420 --> 00:30:02.110
Eric Robertson: It could.

00:30:02.410 --> 00:30:02.615
It could.

00:30:02.645 --> 00:30:02.935
Okay.

00:30:03.370 --> 00:30:03.760
Yeah.

00:30:03.940 --> 00:30:09.750
And it, you know, there's, I, I recently
wrote a, an article about why revenge

00:30:09.750 --> 00:30:12.360
wasn't a good strategy for a divorce.

00:30:12.450 --> 00:30:12.480
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

00:30:12.930 --> 00:30:13.440
Eric Robertson: And

00:30:13.490 --> 00:30:14.210
Rupert Isaacson: why isn't it?

00:30:14.300 --> 00:30:14.780
Tell us.

00:30:15.110 --> 00:30:17.630
Eric Robertson: Well, it's, it's
because it never comes out the

00:30:17.630 --> 00:30:18.770
way you think it's gonna come out.

00:30:18.770 --> 00:30:20.360
You're never gonna get it, number one.

00:30:20.810 --> 00:30:24.590
And secondly, at the end of the day,
you're gonna pour all these resources

00:30:24.590 --> 00:30:27.680
into trying to get that revenge.

00:30:27.830 --> 00:30:31.280
You're not gonna get it, and you're
gonna look back at what you did and

00:30:31.280 --> 00:30:34.220
feel incredibly stupid for doing it.

00:30:34.700 --> 00:30:37.880
And so, but those clients are out there.

00:30:38.405 --> 00:30:38.705
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:30:38.805 --> 00:30:43.840
Eric Robertson: And the the choice is
you can continue representing those

00:30:43.840 --> 00:30:48.280
clients and continue to give them good
advice and continue to try to get them

00:30:48.280 --> 00:30:54.750
to focus on resolving their case rather
than going war to see what happens or

00:30:54.750 --> 00:30:59.100
you can terminate your relationship
with them and, and let them move on to

00:30:59.100 --> 00:31:01.230
somebody else who will have you done that?

00:31:01.230 --> 00:31:04.360
Take their money, take their money,
and do do what they want 'em to do.

00:31:04.360 --> 00:31:04.870
Oh, yeah.

00:31:05.800 --> 00:31:09.620
The, you know, one of the things
that my mentor told me early on was,

00:31:10.520 --> 00:31:13.190
firing a client is never a bad thing.

00:31:13.490 --> 00:31:16.700
If you get to the point where you
can't communicate with that client

00:31:17.090 --> 00:31:22.470
effectively, and they won't do what's
in their best interest that's not only

00:31:22.470 --> 00:31:26.700
good for them, it's good for you that
they, that they move on somewhere else.

00:31:29.760 --> 00:31:32.880
Rupert Isaacson: I dunno if it's
Confucius or if it's just an old Chinese

00:31:32.880 --> 00:31:34.680
proverb, but it, it's the one that says.

00:31:35.250 --> 00:31:38.730
When you begin a journey
of revenge, dig two graves.

00:31:39.390 --> 00:31:39.810
Eric Robertson: Yeah.

00:31:40.050 --> 00:31:40.350
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:31:40.740 --> 00:31:48.930
And cycles of feud are so interesting
because the, as you know, I've spent some

00:31:48.930 --> 00:31:53.760
years living with koan, bushman, hunter
gatherer peoples in Southern Africa.

00:31:53.760 --> 00:31:59.610
So I've been lucky enough to see what
the blueprint of human society is.

00:31:59.880 --> 00:32:01.860
These are the oldest
societies on the planet.

00:32:02.430 --> 00:32:07.260
They predate agriculture, they
predate ownership of things

00:32:07.980 --> 00:32:09.810
other than a few personal items.

00:32:10.530 --> 00:32:15.390
And they are a very good
advertisement for our species

00:32:15.390 --> 00:32:19.470
because they, the entire culture is
based around conflict resolution.

00:32:19.980 --> 00:32:26.040
And it really comes to a very practical
thing, which is that if you are living

00:32:26.070 --> 00:32:29.130
out there in Africa with a spear.

00:32:29.970 --> 00:32:30.990
And your family.

00:32:31.260 --> 00:32:33.120
You are not the top of the food chain.

00:32:33.480 --> 00:32:34.560
You are mid-level.

00:32:35.340 --> 00:32:39.630
And the only thing that will put
you on the top of the food chain

00:32:39.810 --> 00:32:44.100
is a community with whom you
can communicate and strategize.

00:32:44.700 --> 00:32:50.430
So if conflict within the community and
it will happen, gets beyond a certain

00:32:50.430 --> 00:32:54.750
point and the community fragments, then
every single person will be eaten by

00:32:54.750 --> 00:32:56.970
hyenas without a shadow of a doubt.

00:32:57.330 --> 00:33:03.150
So over about 300,000 years, which
seems to be about as old as this

00:33:03.150 --> 00:33:10.050
culture is, and we all from other
ethnic groups share DNA, an old common

00:33:10.050 --> 00:33:13.710
DNA with this group of people, that
goes back to a female actually living

00:33:13.710 --> 00:33:18.390
in what's now Botswana 60,000 years
ago, which is still relatively recent

00:33:18.390 --> 00:33:20.960
by the, the standards of this culture.

00:33:21.780 --> 00:33:25.440
About every 10 days they
have a shamanic ceremony.

00:33:26.250 --> 00:33:30.450
Where it's kind of like the psychic
dirty laundry of the, of the

00:33:30.450 --> 00:33:32.610
group gets a chance to be washed.

00:33:32.910 --> 00:33:37.920
So that conflict just doesn't
get beyond a certain point.

00:33:37.920 --> 00:33:39.720
And they're really good at this.

00:33:39.750 --> 00:33:44.580
And this is the entire focus as soon
as agriculture came in, everything

00:33:44.610 --> 00:33:47.160
when the exact opposite direction.

00:33:47.370 --> 00:33:54.510
So I think a lot of us feel were,
were sold a bill of goods growing

00:33:54.510 --> 00:33:56.400
up that about human nature.

00:33:56.400 --> 00:34:03.930
And we were all told that human nature is,
is grasping and selfish and I want mine.

00:34:03.990 --> 00:34:08.760
And look at the conquest of the
American West and look at England's

00:34:08.760 --> 00:34:12.090
colonial past and look at Rome and you
know, it's all there in front of you.

00:34:14.010 --> 00:34:15.360
And while those things.

00:34:16.065 --> 00:34:16.665
True.

00:34:16.935 --> 00:34:18.645
They're not the whole truth.

00:34:18.735 --> 00:34:23.265
And I do think that everybody deep down
actually wants to resolve conflict.

00:34:23.745 --> 00:34:27.255
Everybody deep down knows
that it goes nowhere.

00:34:27.765 --> 00:34:27.855
Yeah.

00:34:27.885 --> 00:34:30.195
But they just can't
get off that bandwagon.

00:34:30.855 --> 00:34:31.005
Eric Robertson: Yeah.

00:34:31.755 --> 00:34:34.935
Rupert Isaacson: And when you were
a lawyer, I guess you were trying to

00:34:36.150 --> 00:34:41.205
advise people to not climb onto that
bandwagon, not burn the house down.

00:34:41.205 --> 00:34:45.465
I've, I've heard you say it's
a great term, like resolve this

00:34:45.465 --> 00:34:47.475
without destroying everything.

00:34:48.195 --> 00:34:54.345
But now you've moved into the therapy
sphere, presumably people are coming

00:34:54.345 --> 00:34:59.955
to you specifically for conflict
resolution, or do you see the same cycles

00:34:59.955 --> 00:35:03.645
repeated where people are coming in and
they're wanting affirmation from you

00:35:04.035 --> 00:35:05.475
for conflicts that they're involved in?

00:35:06.045 --> 00:35:08.685
And they're sort of
wanting validation in that.

00:35:09.195 --> 00:35:12.735
What, what's, how's your
experience with this?

00:35:12.825 --> 00:35:15.405
Eric Robertson: Well, yeah, a,
a little, a little bit of both.

00:35:15.515 --> 00:35:20.855
People still come in initially
with with ideas of what they want.

00:35:21.425 --> 00:35:25.565
You know, the therapist's
role isn't to tell people what

00:35:25.565 --> 00:35:27.725
to do to make things better.

00:35:28.125 --> 00:35:29.955
The therapist's role in mind, dammit.

00:35:29.955 --> 00:35:30.045
I

00:35:30.045 --> 00:35:31.485
Rupert Isaacson: was hoping
you were gonna do that today.

00:35:32.475 --> 00:35:36.425
Eric Robertson: The therapist's role is
to try to get people to understand who

00:35:36.425 --> 00:35:42.545
they are and how they can resolve and
come up with the strategy strategies to

00:35:42.545 --> 00:35:44.765
resolve their own mental health issues.

00:35:45.285 --> 00:35:51.845
So, you know, yeah, I, I do work with
people going through divorces and.

00:35:52.605 --> 00:35:54.615
They're, they're, they're mad and angry.

00:35:55.185 --> 00:35:55.395
Mm-hmm.

00:35:55.395 --> 00:35:57.865
And they, they don't like
what's happening to 'em.

00:35:57.865 --> 00:35:59.995
They don't like what, what
they're gonna have to give up

00:35:59.995 --> 00:36:02.005
to try to settle their case.

00:36:02.005 --> 00:36:06.685
And, and we talk about that, but what
we're talking about in the therapy context

00:36:06.955 --> 00:36:10.315
is a little bit different than what,
what I used to talk about in the divorce

00:36:10.315 --> 00:36:12.505
lawyer context, in therapy context.

00:36:12.865 --> 00:36:14.635
We're talking about those emotions.

00:36:14.635 --> 00:36:18.175
I'm, I'm validating those
emotions and letting them know

00:36:18.175 --> 00:36:20.305
that it's okay to feel that way.

00:36:20.915 --> 00:36:25.745
And trying to get them to
understand that they have choices.

00:36:26.175 --> 00:36:31.615
They can continue to be that way or they
can move into some other a mother arena.

00:36:31.615 --> 00:36:36.115
They're not, that's similar to some of the
things that I did as a divorce lawyer, but

00:36:36.595 --> 00:36:41.645
from a divorce lawyer standpoint I was a
little bit freer to say things like you

00:36:41.645 --> 00:36:43.595
know, I don't think you want to do that.

00:36:43.655 --> 00:36:45.485
And here's why.

00:36:45.845 --> 00:36:49.805
If you do that, the other
side's gonna do this, and you're

00:36:49.805 --> 00:36:51.545
gonna get really pissed off.

00:36:52.055 --> 00:36:56.595
And if we, if we get to the courthouse
and we have to have a trial in front of a

00:36:56.595 --> 00:36:59.355
judge, they're gonna be really pissed off.

00:36:59.535 --> 00:37:03.265
And you're going to feel the brunt
of that, and you're gonna come out

00:37:03.265 --> 00:37:04.975
on the losing end of that stick.

00:37:05.365 --> 00:37:08.155
So don't do it in a

00:37:08.365 --> 00:37:09.415
Rupert Isaacson: Now
that's really helpful.

00:37:09.415 --> 00:37:12.535
Is that not by its definition,
conflict resolution, right there?

00:37:13.495 --> 00:37:18.045
Eric Robertson: It, it is, it's
part of what what I would put in

00:37:18.105 --> 00:37:20.115
the umbrella of conflict resolution.

00:37:20.115 --> 00:37:25.725
But from a therapeutic standpoint,
that's not what a therapist would do.

00:37:26.175 --> 00:37:26.595
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:37:28.065 --> 00:37:28.335
Do you

00:37:28.335 --> 00:37:30.075
Eric Robertson: know now again,
some of the other things, some of

00:37:30.075 --> 00:37:33.575
the other stuff I did that I do is,
as we've talked about, is divorce.

00:37:33.995 --> 00:37:35.015
Divorce coaching.

00:37:35.645 --> 00:37:35.705
Okay.

00:37:35.705 --> 00:37:40.665
Which is which is helping people when
they're in the midst of the divorce

00:37:40.875 --> 00:37:44.235
to provide them support as they're
going through the divorce and to

00:37:44.235 --> 00:37:49.915
try to get them regulated if they're
dysregulated emotionally, so that they

00:37:49.915 --> 00:37:54.085
can make good decisions and so that
they can listen to what their divorce

00:37:54.085 --> 00:37:59.074
lawyer is telling them and follow
their divorce lawyer's, legal advice.

00:37:59.384 --> 00:38:03.254
See that that's, that's the, the
difference between being a divorce

00:38:03.254 --> 00:38:07.814
coach and being a lawyer is the
lawyer gives legal advice and gives

00:38:07.814 --> 00:38:12.524
you a legal strategy and does all
these things that the law requires.

00:38:12.774 --> 00:38:16.284
As a divorce coach, I'm, I'm
there to kind of support them and

00:38:16.284 --> 00:38:20.434
help them understand that this
person that you've, you're paying.

00:38:21.064 --> 00:38:26.554
Large amounts of money to, to
help you through this divorce is

00:38:26.944 --> 00:38:32.284
giving you, for the most part good
advice, and we need to understand

00:38:32.284 --> 00:38:33.874
why you're reluctant to take it.

00:38:34.294 --> 00:38:38.884
What is it that's keeping you
from doing what your divorce

00:38:38.884 --> 00:38:40.534
lawyer is telling you to do?

00:38:40.774 --> 00:38:44.074
And, you know, I'm, I'm not
really a therapist in that role.

00:38:44.104 --> 00:38:44.254
Yeah.

00:38:44.684 --> 00:38:47.174
A hundred percent, but I'm not, it's a

00:38:47.174 --> 00:38:48.074
Rupert Isaacson: great hybrid role.

00:38:48.074 --> 00:38:50.744
I think it's a really, it's a
really needed one because I think

00:38:50.744 --> 00:38:56.474
you can, you can really help people
to not destroy their families.

00:38:56.624 --> 00:38:56.984
Eric Robertson: Yeah.

00:38:57.164 --> 00:38:57.764
Rupert Isaacson: And themselves.

00:38:58.094 --> 00:39:03.194
As you know, if you followed any of
my work, I'm an autism dad and we have

00:39:03.194 --> 00:39:09.754
a whole career before this podcast in
helping people with neurodivergence,

00:39:10.434 --> 00:39:12.654
either who are professionals in the field.

00:39:12.734 --> 00:39:13.574
Are you a therapist?

00:39:13.994 --> 00:39:15.264
Are you a caregiver?

00:39:15.654 --> 00:39:16.664
Are you a parent?

00:39:17.099 --> 00:39:19.129
Or are you somebody with neurodivergence?

00:39:20.569 --> 00:39:25.509
When my son, Rowan, was
diagnosed with autism in 2004,

00:39:25.549 --> 00:39:27.179
I really didn't know what to do.

00:39:27.379 --> 00:39:32.649
So I reached out for mentorship, and
I found it through an amazing adult

00:39:32.689 --> 00:39:35.489
autistic woman who's very famous, Dr.

00:39:35.639 --> 00:39:36.529
Temple Grandin.

00:39:36.729 --> 00:39:38.369
And she told me what to do.

00:39:38.419 --> 00:39:42.659
And it's been working so
amazingly for the last 20 years.

00:39:43.009 --> 00:39:47.459
That not only is my son basically
independent, but we've helped

00:39:47.719 --> 00:39:51.469
countless, countless thousands
of others reach the same goal.

00:39:51.809 --> 00:39:55.709
Working in schools, working at
home, working in therapy settings.

00:39:56.739 --> 00:40:01.179
If you would like to learn this
cutting edge, neuroscience backed

00:40:01.399 --> 00:40:03.439
approach, it's called Movement Method.

00:40:04.099 --> 00:40:07.457
You can learn it online, you
can learn it very, very simply.

00:40:07.457 --> 00:40:09.719
It's almost laughably simple.

00:40:10.659 --> 00:40:13.359
The important thing is to begin.

00:40:14.289 --> 00:40:17.439
Let yourself be mentored as I was by Dr.

00:40:17.439 --> 00:40:20.729
Grandin and see what results can follow.

00:40:21.759 --> 00:40:24.689
Go to this website, newtrailslearning.

00:40:26.959 --> 00:40:29.464
com Sign up as a gold member.

00:40:29.904 --> 00:40:32.794
Take the online movement method course.

00:40:33.284 --> 00:40:34.654
It's in 40 countries.

00:40:35.264 --> 00:40:37.324
Let us know how it goes for you.

00:40:37.524 --> 00:40:38.294
We really want to know.

00:40:38.304 --> 00:40:42.804
We really want to help people like
me, people like you, out there

00:40:43.154 --> 00:40:46.434
live their best life, to live
free, ride free, see what happens.

00:40:47.424 --> 00:40:53.814
What are your strategies do you have
like a, a go-to, like do, I presume

00:40:53.814 --> 00:40:59.214
you must see patterns in clients like
personality type one, personality

00:40:59.214 --> 00:41:00.744
type two, personality type three.

00:41:00.894 --> 00:41:05.184
Just over the years, these
things must have, there's always

00:41:05.184 --> 00:41:06.564
patterns, you know, to everything.

00:41:07.404 --> 00:41:08.544
And then do you have.

00:41:10.029 --> 00:41:11.529
Strategy patterns.

00:41:11.679 --> 00:41:13.719
And I'm just thinking if someone
who's watching this and listening

00:41:13.719 --> 00:41:17.799
to it, they might recognize
themselves in one of those.

00:41:18.339 --> 00:41:18.459
Eric Robertson: Yeah.

00:41:18.489 --> 00:41:23.739
Rupert Isaacson: And might be able to draw
some really useful insights from that.

00:41:23.979 --> 00:41:27.939
And now as they're listening to,
and, and then just before we go

00:41:27.939 --> 00:41:32.049
there to these patterns and how you
approach them, is the divorce coaching

00:41:32.049 --> 00:41:34.239
thing quite a recent phenomenon?

00:41:34.239 --> 00:41:37.089
Because it's not something I've
heard of before, but it does

00:41:37.089 --> 00:41:38.079
sound something very useful.

00:41:38.529 --> 00:41:42.279
Eric Robertson: Yeah, it, it's a,
it's fairly recent phenomenon, I'd say

00:41:42.279 --> 00:41:45.909
within the last five to eight years.

00:41:45.979 --> 00:41:50.479
There's, there's not a lot of people
out there that do divorce coaching.

00:41:50.509 --> 00:41:54.529
There are there are some unfortunately
there's a lot of people that.

00:41:54.979 --> 00:41:59.269
Got into divorce coaching after they
went through a bad divorce themselves,

00:41:59.539 --> 00:42:04.419
which is probably not the person you
need to, you need to choose to do that.

00:42:04.669 --> 00:42:11.179
There are also hybrid therapies
that kind of work along with

00:42:11.179 --> 00:42:12.709
things like divorce coaching.

00:42:12.709 --> 00:42:16.739
There's a a concept called
divorce discernment counseling.

00:42:17.039 --> 00:42:17.309
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:42:17.309 --> 00:42:21.959
Eric Robertson: Where couples who are
having difficulty, who aren't wanting

00:42:21.959 --> 00:42:26.469
to go into marriage counseling, go into
divorce, discernment counseling for a,

00:42:26.879 --> 00:42:31.799
a number of sessions, a finite number
of sessions to determine whether or

00:42:31.799 --> 00:42:33.809
not they want to get a divorce or not.

00:42:34.799 --> 00:42:38.699
And I think at, when you talk
about conflict resolution, that's

00:42:38.699 --> 00:42:43.469
one of the, the first places a
lot of people might think to start

00:42:44.009 --> 00:42:45.539
in terms of divorce coaching.

00:42:47.294 --> 00:42:50.114
I don't know that I
have any set strategies.

00:42:50.114 --> 00:42:53.384
I mean, obviously, as you know,
every case is, is different.

00:42:53.744 --> 00:42:57.464
Every person that comes in the office is
different, presents, different issues.

00:42:57.914 --> 00:43:02.894
My my mode of working with people
is the first session we'll spend

00:43:02.944 --> 00:43:07.534
an hour to an hour and a half
talking about their divorce.

00:43:07.924 --> 00:43:12.644
Normally they're already in the
divorce, and what got 'em there what

00:43:12.644 --> 00:43:18.874
the issues are in their divorce what,
what the the struggles are that they're

00:43:18.874 --> 00:43:21.634
going through in the legal process.

00:43:21.964 --> 00:43:26.644
And then we address each of those
in the, in the subsequent sessions.

00:43:27.064 --> 00:43:31.384
And o oftentimes the first session
is somebody coming in and just.

00:43:33.124 --> 00:43:38.464
Laying out every bad thing that's
happened to him in the process leading

00:43:38.464 --> 00:43:43.084
up to the divorce and during the
divorce, and how awful the other side is.

00:43:43.084 --> 00:43:45.794
And this is what I want to have happen.

00:43:46.424 --> 00:43:49.784
And then we have to talk about,
well, what kind of advice are

00:43:49.784 --> 00:43:50.804
you getting from your attorney?

00:43:51.614 --> 00:43:52.994
Are you following that advice?

00:43:52.994 --> 00:43:54.254
Why not if you're not?

00:43:54.824 --> 00:44:00.104
And one of the things I've found over
the years practicing law as a divorce

00:44:00.104 --> 00:44:05.234
lawyer was every client that came
into the room, had five or six shadow

00:44:05.234 --> 00:44:10.184
advisors that were feeding stuff to
them about what they ought to do and

00:44:10.184 --> 00:44:12.344
what they shouldn't do in their divorce.

00:44:12.674 --> 00:44:15.644
And so when that comes into
the room in a divorce coaching

00:44:15.644 --> 00:44:19.394
situation, we have to unpack that
and we have to talk about that.

00:44:19.784 --> 00:44:21.014
Who's giving you advice?

00:44:21.014 --> 00:44:21.854
Where did you get that?

00:44:21.854 --> 00:44:22.784
Who told you that?

00:44:23.064 --> 00:44:25.704
Why do you think that's
important for you to do?

00:44:26.184 --> 00:44:33.704
And and then we have to really examine
that in the context of what is best

00:44:33.704 --> 00:44:36.794
for you as you go through your divorce.

00:44:36.794 --> 00:44:41.054
Do you really think that you ought to be
listening to your sister or to your best

00:44:41.054 --> 00:44:43.884
friend give you advice about your divorce?

00:44:44.334 --> 00:44:45.084
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:44:45.090 --> 00:44:47.454
Eric Robertson: And, and, and most
of the time people come around to the

00:44:47.454 --> 00:44:52.244
idea that, well, as, as I was fond of
saying when I was a lawyer, you know,

00:44:52.244 --> 00:44:55.704
you're paying me $600 an hour for
my advice and you're not taking it.

00:44:56.369 --> 00:44:58.559
Is, is that really a smart thing to do?

00:45:00.479 --> 00:45:01.049
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:45:02.579 --> 00:45:05.319
I've got a question for you
which I just wrote down here.

00:45:05.499 --> 00:45:11.889
So why is, is counterintuitive, why is
someone who went through a bad divorce

00:45:12.339 --> 00:45:15.099
perhaps not a good divorce coach?

00:45:15.099 --> 00:45:19.419
Because let's say you're in
aa, you would want your sponsor

00:45:19.809 --> 00:45:20.919
to be an alcoholic, right?

00:45:20.949 --> 00:45:21.279
Yeah.

00:45:21.414 --> 00:45:21.534
Yeah.

00:45:21.909 --> 00:45:26.859
So if they don't, if they haven't
gone through it, what resources

00:45:26.859 --> 00:45:28.539
have they got really to offer you?

00:45:28.569 --> 00:45:31.539
Eric Robertson: Yeah, I just wrote
an article about that, that was

00:45:31.539 --> 00:45:35.649
posted on a somebody's LinkedIn and
I'm happy to share it with you, to

00:45:35.649 --> 00:45:38.139
share with your, your listeners.

00:45:38.139 --> 00:45:38.529
But

00:45:40.749 --> 00:45:44.769
I'm not saying you can never hire
somebody that's been through a divorce

00:45:44.919 --> 00:45:49.149
to be your divorce coach, but what
I'm saying is you need to be careful

00:45:49.599 --> 00:45:51.969
people that go through a bad divorce.

00:45:52.869 --> 00:45:57.519
Come into the process with a bias,
they're already pissed off at the

00:45:57.519 --> 00:46:00.429
process or pissed off at their ex-spouse.

00:46:00.729 --> 00:46:05.049
They're mad and angry sometimes
at, at their attorney or the judge.

00:46:05.349 --> 00:46:11.069
And so they come in with their own
agenda and a lot of times they're

00:46:11.069 --> 00:46:16.439
projecting their own stuff onto your
case, and the advice you're gonna

00:46:16.439 --> 00:46:21.299
get may not be the advice that you
need from somebody that doesn't

00:46:21.299 --> 00:46:24.239
have that kind of emotional baggage.

00:46:24.509 --> 00:46:28.829
So you need to be very careful
when you choose a divorce coach.

00:46:29.159 --> 00:46:30.509
And if somebody says.

00:46:31.139 --> 00:46:35.729
On their website or in their materials
that they've been through a divorce, you

00:46:35.729 --> 00:46:39.989
need to ask them some strong questions
about, well, how did that go for you?

00:46:40.359 --> 00:46:44.049
You know, ideally you'd, if you hire
somebody like that, you'd find somebody

00:46:44.049 --> 00:46:48.879
that went through a, some sort of a
collaborative process where they had very

00:46:48.879 --> 00:46:54.889
little conflict and they resolve things
amiably and, and they're just there to

00:46:54.889 --> 00:47:00.169
help other people learn those techniques
and go through the divorce The same way.

00:47:00.529 --> 00:47:04.129
You don't want somebody that the
first thing they tell you after you

00:47:04.129 --> 00:47:09.649
ask them about their divorce was,
well, my spouse was a real no good

00:47:09.649 --> 00:47:15.499
SOB, and I got taken to the cleaners
and the judge gave her everything.

00:47:15.499 --> 00:47:18.199
And that's, that's the in no sure that,

00:47:18.199 --> 00:47:19.999
Rupert Isaacson: that, that I
could see, but I could see someone

00:47:20.449 --> 00:47:23.539
of real value saying, well,
no, I had a terrible divorce.

00:47:23.569 --> 00:47:25.589
You know, and but.

00:47:25.979 --> 00:47:31.499
During this, I tried to make it as un, you
know, as un terrible as possible and tried

00:47:31.499 --> 00:47:37.229
to listen to my lawyer in this way and
tried to resolve the conflict, you know?

00:47:37.234 --> 00:47:37.384
Eric Robertson: Yeah.

00:47:37.559 --> 00:47:41.669
Rupert Isaacson: As we best we
could and got did the best we

00:47:41.669 --> 00:47:45.629
could with the situation, you know,
that would reassure me, you know,

00:47:45.689 --> 00:47:47.909
Eric Robertson: or somebody that
recognizes that I went through a

00:47:47.909 --> 00:47:50.819
bad divorce and I behaved poorly.

00:47:50.969 --> 00:47:51.419
Right.

00:47:51.419 --> 00:47:54.639
And I didn't follow my lawyer's
advice and I came out of it

00:47:54.639 --> 00:47:56.109
badly, but it was my own thought.

00:47:56.109 --> 00:47:56.709
You'll do what I did.

00:47:57.039 --> 00:47:58.599
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:47:58.599 --> 00:47:59.709
No, that would make sense.

00:48:00.669 --> 00:48:04.269
So, okay, let's, let's go back
to the, to the, your therapy hat.

00:48:04.379 --> 00:48:09.509
I think men from our generation,
it's, it's pretty clear, you

00:48:09.509 --> 00:48:11.519
know, what the issues are.

00:48:11.519 --> 00:48:14.689
We were brought up brutalized I.

00:48:15.174 --> 00:48:20.904
I know, you know, I went to a certain
type of military school in the UK where

00:48:21.264 --> 00:48:24.954
physical violence and assault was daily.

00:48:25.734 --> 00:48:30.264
And, but from every level, from the
teachers, from the other boys, from

00:48:30.264 --> 00:48:33.234
the older boys to the younger boys
from, and it was all encouraged.

00:48:33.414 --> 00:48:41.754
And it was, you know, actively the culture
because it was supposed to make you tough.

00:48:42.744 --> 00:48:47.334
And what it did was it created all
sorts of dysfunctions naturally,

00:48:47.724 --> 00:48:49.854
but its purpose was clear.

00:48:50.394 --> 00:48:54.564
It was supposed to be preparing
boys to go out and run the British

00:48:54.564 --> 00:48:58.224
empire, even though the British
Empire didn't actually exist anymore.

00:48:58.704 --> 00:49:00.654
And although you could
argue it became a bank.

00:49:01.404 --> 00:49:06.864
But, and a lot of my friends went into
the armed forces or into banking and.

00:49:07.824 --> 00:49:14.424
The point was that it was gonna produce
an officer class of young men who would go

00:49:14.424 --> 00:49:19.884
out and like run a portion of the Sudan,
possibly die at the age of 32 of malaria

00:49:19.884 --> 00:49:24.594
or killed in a tribal conflict, and sort
of be able to do that with a kind of a

00:49:25.194 --> 00:49:32.274
confidence and a belief in themselves
and a, a certain willingness to die.

00:49:32.934 --> 00:49:36.684
And we were told, we're gonna
break you down to build you up.

00:49:36.864 --> 00:49:42.354
And, and they certainly did
break us down and what we were re

00:49:45.114 --> 00:49:49.554
composited as was a motley
collection of stuff.

00:49:49.674 --> 00:49:56.184
But I think that the stuff facing
younger men today, and I'm the father

00:49:56.184 --> 00:49:58.284
of a 25-year-old, it's different.

00:49:59.604 --> 00:50:02.604
It's about an, as you said
earlier in the conversation about

00:50:02.604 --> 00:50:03.894
anxiety, it's about loneliness.

00:50:03.894 --> 00:50:05.724
It's about isolation.

00:50:05.784 --> 00:50:10.474
And I think this is something I'd ask
the readers and the, the, the, the

00:50:10.474 --> 00:50:11.844
viewers and the listeners to consider.

00:50:12.204 --> 00:50:16.374
If you are, are you, do you know, are
you this parent or do you know someone

00:50:16.374 --> 00:50:21.594
who is this parent that you, they have
perhaps two girls and a boy of young

00:50:21.594 --> 00:50:26.844
adult age and of the two girls, one
is at college, one is beginning her

00:50:26.844 --> 00:50:30.924
career doing quite well, and the boy
who's a young adult is in the basement

00:50:30.954 --> 00:50:32.424
and won't get off the computer game.

00:50:33.534 --> 00:50:35.544
Is this, is this a familiar scenario?

00:50:35.579 --> 00:50:35.999
Mm-hmm.

00:50:36.594 --> 00:50:39.444
I would posit that quite
a few hands would go up.

00:50:40.314 --> 00:50:40.524
Eric Robertson: Yeah.

00:50:42.504 --> 00:50:43.764
Rupert Isaacson: Give us
your thoughts on this.

00:50:44.934 --> 00:50:46.824
Eric Robertson: Well, I have a,
I have a couple thoughts on that.

00:50:46.824 --> 00:50:48.834
Number one, I, I don't think that.

00:50:49.674 --> 00:50:55.704
What you've explained about your
growing up and to some extent the

00:50:55.704 --> 00:51:00.704
way I grew up in, in, in the United
States is is completely gone.

00:51:00.704 --> 00:51:05.984
Yet I think that there's still this,
these traditional norms of masculinity

00:51:05.984 --> 00:51:11.084
that we teach boys early on and
you know, things like strength and

00:51:11.174 --> 00:51:16.044
equal self-reliance and we need to
be in control with our emotions.

00:51:16.294 --> 00:51:22.074
We frame vulner vulnerability as often as
weakness or, or dependency or, or mm-hmm.

00:51:22.314 --> 00:51:24.829
Some sort of failure, which it isn't.

00:51:25.504 --> 00:51:28.564
And so I, I don't think that
those things are all gone.

00:51:29.524 --> 00:51:29.764
Rupert Isaacson: A hundred

00:51:29.764 --> 00:51:30.104
Eric Robertson: percent I do.

00:51:30.569 --> 00:51:30.809
Yeah.

00:51:30.809 --> 00:51:35.819
I do agree that there, there's this
new thing that's come in that's, that's

00:51:35.819 --> 00:51:39.389
allowed boys to try to escape from.

00:51:40.064 --> 00:51:44.534
The world the, the video game
stuff and, and social media and,

00:51:44.924 --> 00:51:46.934
and everybody's got a cell phone.

00:51:46.934 --> 00:51:52.024
And of course the, the kind of
bullying that goes on, on social media

00:51:52.114 --> 00:51:54.514
with with kids is, is horrendous.

00:51:54.514 --> 00:51:58.384
And I think that, that, that drives
a lot of young men into, into

00:51:58.384 --> 00:51:59.854
the basement with a video game.

00:51:59.854 --> 00:52:01.774
That's, that's where they can get away.

00:52:01.774 --> 00:52:08.104
They can get on these action games
online and present whatever they think

00:52:08.529 --> 00:52:13.299
their view of masculine masculinity
ought to be in that context.

00:52:13.669 --> 00:52:15.349
And they're, they're
doing that on their own.

00:52:15.349 --> 00:52:18.679
There's no, you know, even though
you might be in one of these games

00:52:18.679 --> 00:52:24.709
where you're engaged with other
people online, there's no emotional

00:52:24.709 --> 00:52:26.299
connection with those people.

00:52:26.299 --> 00:52:27.709
There's no friendship.

00:52:28.129 --> 00:52:28.429
Mm-hmm.

00:52:28.479 --> 00:52:30.459
It's, it, you're not out there.

00:52:30.984 --> 00:52:36.724
With your best buddy talking about
how bad things are at home or what,

00:52:36.754 --> 00:52:39.094
what's going on at, at school or

00:52:39.094 --> 00:52:40.294
Rupert Isaacson: sharing a goofy laugh.

00:52:40.354 --> 00:52:40.684
Yeah.

00:52:40.684 --> 00:52:42.604
Eric Robertson: Or sharing
a goofy laugh with somebody

00:52:42.604 --> 00:52:43.984
that's, that's not happening.

00:52:44.914 --> 00:52:48.624
And I think you know, I think that
that's problematic and I think, you

00:52:48.624 --> 00:52:53.994
know, for us to turn that around, I think
the most important step for parents,

00:52:54.324 --> 00:53:00.954
and, and I would put this out to your
listeners, is to start early developing

00:53:00.954 --> 00:53:02.904
some sort of an emotional literacy.

00:53:03.504 --> 00:53:04.914
With with your boys.

00:53:05.254 --> 00:53:10.384
This means helping them name emotions
other than it's fine, or I'm mad,

00:53:10.384 --> 00:53:14.824
or I'm tired, and, and doing so,
and doing so without shaming them.

00:53:14.824 --> 00:53:16.204
That's, that's the other part.

00:53:16.634 --> 00:53:21.554
Adults should model that emotional
language and normalize all the emotions

00:53:21.554 --> 00:53:29.124
that that, that your kids your boys
especially carry and not try to assign

00:53:29.124 --> 00:53:31.464
that as being some sort of a weakness.

00:53:31.579 --> 00:53:31.869
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:53:34.194 --> 00:53:34.554
Yeah.

00:53:34.554 --> 00:53:35.094
Okay.

00:53:35.244 --> 00:53:38.824
Eric Robertson: One of the phrases
I like is focus with boys especially

00:53:38.824 --> 00:53:44.014
focus on connection before
correction, when, when they act out.

00:53:44.404 --> 00:53:44.944
Okay?

00:53:45.304 --> 00:53:45.484
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:53:45.484 --> 00:53:47.404
Eric Robertson: Because I think in, in my.

00:53:48.259 --> 00:53:52.399
My growing up, you know, if I did
something wrong as a kid, I got the belt.

00:53:52.669 --> 00:53:52.849
Okay.

00:53:52.849 --> 00:53:53.089
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:53:53.269 --> 00:53:56.629
Eric Robertson: That, that, that dates me
a little bit, but that, that fits in with

00:53:56.629 --> 00:53:58.759
the violence that, that you talked about.

00:53:58.969 --> 00:53:59.209
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:53:59.209 --> 00:54:02.149
Eric Robertson: And when they act
out, there's a natural tendency

00:54:02.149 --> 00:54:06.249
to want to scream and shout
and, and correct the behavior.

00:54:06.669 --> 00:54:10.569
But we need to understand what's
going on first, and that's

00:54:10.569 --> 00:54:11.889
where the connection comes in.

00:54:13.719 --> 00:54:15.549
Rupert Isaacson: You
talked about mentorship.

00:54:15.759 --> 00:54:22.779
I think, I know, I observe that
weirdly, this is getting harder

00:54:22.779 --> 00:54:24.399
and harder to find, it seems.

00:54:25.059 --> 00:54:30.579
And because we've had a feminist
movement, I'm wondering if it's easier

00:54:31.029 --> 00:54:38.139
for females to find female to female
mentoring, particularly intergenerational.

00:54:39.399 --> 00:54:40.689
The elders, you know,

00:54:44.499 --> 00:54:47.949
why, why don't we have that for boys?

00:54:47.949 --> 00:54:50.919
Is it because men are working too hard?

00:54:50.919 --> 00:54:51.759
They're too checked out.

00:54:51.759 --> 00:54:52.779
They're not available.

00:54:53.259 --> 00:54:53.859
They're not there.

00:54:55.989 --> 00:54:56.919
Why is it?

00:54:58.119 --> 00:54:59.379
Eric Robertson: I think that's part of it.

00:54:59.469 --> 00:55:05.659
I think men of childbearing age now
are, are real involved with their

00:55:05.659 --> 00:55:10.969
careers and with other things and
not necessarily available to mentor.

00:55:11.749 --> 00:55:13.879
Rupert Isaacson: Because it seems to
me there's been a double standard,

00:55:14.359 --> 00:55:18.409
which is that, I mean, we, humans are
great at double standards and I've

00:55:18.529 --> 00:55:20.299
produced many double standards myself.

00:55:20.699 --> 00:55:26.339
But the double standard is, is
that as a male, now you're supposed

00:55:26.339 --> 00:55:27.304
to be available vulnerable.

00:55:28.139 --> 00:55:30.209
Communicative, compassionate.

00:55:31.719 --> 00:55:37.989
And absolutely, you know, equal
rec, you know, work an equal

00:55:37.989 --> 00:55:39.909
thing between the genders and on.

00:55:39.909 --> 00:55:42.879
However, at the same time, you're
actually still supposed to be the red

00:55:42.879 --> 00:55:48.669
winner and you're judged if you're not
by females as much as by other men.

00:55:49.959 --> 00:55:50.259
And

00:55:50.259 --> 00:55:52.539
Eric Robertson: it's funny you should
say that, that I, that is something

00:55:52.539 --> 00:55:54.309
I experienced as a divorce lawyer.

00:55:54.849 --> 00:55:59.379
So we're all familiar with this
in the United States with the

00:55:59.379 --> 00:56:02.349
concept of the stay at home mom.

00:56:02.769 --> 00:56:04.449
She's a mom that stays at home.

00:56:04.449 --> 00:56:07.599
She takes care of the household,
she raises the kids, she does

00:56:07.599 --> 00:56:08.589
everything in the household,

00:56:08.589 --> 00:56:09.399
Rupert Isaacson: and we honor that.

00:56:09.459 --> 00:56:09.789
Yeah.

00:56:09.879 --> 00:56:10.089
Yeah.

00:56:10.089 --> 00:56:10.749
Eric Robertson: And we want her there.

00:56:11.649 --> 00:56:15.719
And I'll throw this out to feminism,
and she's not appreciated as

00:56:15.719 --> 00:56:17.729
much as she ought to be, perhaps.

00:56:18.029 --> 00:56:18.419
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.

00:56:18.539 --> 00:56:18.989
Eric Robertson: But.

00:56:19.724 --> 00:56:24.884
Every once in a while I would get a
case where those roles were reversed

00:56:25.514 --> 00:56:34.484
and the female was the high wage
earner and they had made an agreement

00:56:34.484 --> 00:56:39.194
that the male would stay home and be
the house husband and raise the kids.

00:56:39.584 --> 00:56:44.054
And the, the, the funny thing that
happened with that is in the context of

00:56:44.054 --> 00:56:52.454
the divorce, that female acted just like
men act in, in the reverse situation.

00:56:52.634 --> 00:56:54.824
They took on the same traits as men.

00:56:55.194 --> 00:56:59.844
They resented the fact that this person
stayed at home and didn't do anything even

00:56:59.844 --> 00:57:02.124
though they were at home doing things.

00:57:02.464 --> 00:57:05.884
They resented the fact that they had
gone out and earned all this money

00:57:05.884 --> 00:57:09.244
and now we're having to split it
with this person who stayed at home.

00:57:09.784 --> 00:57:15.224
And even though they made that
agreement seven years into it, when.

00:57:16.079 --> 00:57:21.879
That she didn't like it anymore the
female would have the same complaints

00:57:21.879 --> 00:57:24.849
that men had in the same situation.

00:57:25.089 --> 00:57:31.389
So what, what that told me was in those
circumstances, there really isn't much

00:57:31.389 --> 00:57:37.779
of a, of a difference in how men and
women respond in those circumstances.

00:57:37.779 --> 00:57:43.749
Although societally, I think there has
been it's, they're more open to it now.

00:57:43.749 --> 00:57:48.549
There was a tendency to think that men
that were staying at home doing that kind

00:57:48.549 --> 00:57:53.709
of stuff were kind of freeloading and
not really living up to their potential.

00:57:54.009 --> 00:57:56.379
And, and of course I, like I
said, I think that's changing.

00:57:56.919 --> 00:58:01.144
But it, it was, it always interest me
that there was really, when you're in the

00:58:01.144 --> 00:58:05.284
thick of the conflict, the same things
you hear from men, you'd hear from women,

00:58:06.154 --> 00:58:06.394
Rupert Isaacson: right.

00:58:06.394 --> 00:58:06.559
And, and.

00:58:07.549 --> 00:58:11.119
That's a good insight that it's, it's
more a human thing than a gender thing.

00:58:11.629 --> 00:58:16.579
But that also, I think the gender
roles that, and expectations that

00:58:16.579 --> 00:58:21.499
we're all brought up with can backfire
I think to some degree on males

00:58:21.499 --> 00:58:28.699
because yes, you are still expected
to behave in that stoic manner.

00:58:29.839 --> 00:58:34.459
You're still supposed to be more
the strong, silent type you're still

00:58:34.459 --> 00:58:39.209
supposed to go out and earn and provide.

00:58:39.209 --> 00:58:42.569
And one of the difficulties about that
is that, and that's why I asked you

00:58:42.929 --> 00:58:46.709
questions earlier in this conversation
about whether there had been some of

00:58:46.709 --> 00:58:51.839
those expectations on you because, or
whether they, they'd been projections.

00:58:51.839 --> 00:58:55.019
Because I think the reality
is that for a lot of.

00:58:55.424 --> 00:58:58.004
Meant those expectations are still there.

00:58:58.424 --> 00:59:02.864
And what that does is it means that they
can't actually be that available to their

00:59:02.864 --> 00:59:09.494
kids because the time that it takes and
the energy that it takes to be that sort

00:59:09.494 --> 00:59:15.674
of stoic breadwinner, unfortunately,
does take time away from where they

00:59:15.674 --> 00:59:17.804
could be vol, you know, a available

00:59:17.804 --> 00:59:18.554
Eric Robertson: mm-hmm.

00:59:18.614 --> 00:59:21.134
Rupert Isaacson: To their
spouses and children.

00:59:21.704 --> 00:59:23.114
How does one resolve this?

00:59:25.934 --> 00:59:29.054
Eric Robertson: It comes down to making
a choice about what's important to you.

00:59:29.324 --> 00:59:30.344
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:59:30.344 --> 00:59:31.214
Eric Robertson: You know what?

00:59:31.334 --> 00:59:36.644
You have to examine your own values
in terms of having a family and having

00:59:36.644 --> 00:59:42.024
children, and having boys and what you're
willing to do to make sure that you

00:59:42.024 --> 00:59:48.574
raise the best possible young man you can
with the best possible emotional health.

00:59:48.904 --> 00:59:51.004
That you can, you can instill in them.

00:59:51.664 --> 00:59:51.754
Mm-hmm.

00:59:51.754 --> 00:59:54.944
And you know, that's a different
thing 'cause we're you know, I like

00:59:54.944 --> 01:00:01.194
to think of, of, as you put it,
how man has developed over history.

01:00:01.584 --> 01:00:05.934
And we've moved from what you
described with the bushman

01:00:05.934 --> 01:00:07.944
to an agrarian to society.

01:00:08.394 --> 01:00:14.364
And now I'm gonna get a lot of flack for
say in this, but now we're a society,

01:00:14.424 --> 01:00:17.364
a world society driven by greed.

01:00:18.144 --> 01:00:18.714
Okay?

01:00:18.834 --> 01:00:19.854
That's the focus.

01:00:19.854 --> 01:00:24.564
The focus of life is making
as much money and accumulating

01:00:24.564 --> 01:00:26.724
as much stuff as possible.

01:00:27.144 --> 01:00:29.724
Now, there's always exceptions to
that and there's a lot of people out

01:00:29.724 --> 01:00:31.224
there that don't live that kinda life.

01:00:31.224 --> 01:00:35.184
But if, if you look at the news
in the United States, that's

01:00:35.184 --> 01:00:36.474
what you see all the time.

01:00:36.474 --> 01:00:37.914
That's a measure of success.

01:00:38.394 --> 01:00:44.424
And as we talked about earlier, the way
to get to that success is to work as

01:00:44.424 --> 01:00:46.584
hard as you can, as much as you can.

01:00:46.914 --> 01:00:51.404
And you know, there's 24 hours in a day
if you assume that you're asleep for

01:00:51.404 --> 01:00:54.104
eight of it, you don't have a lot left.

01:00:54.404 --> 01:00:54.914
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.

01:00:54.964 --> 01:00:58.464
Eric Robertson: To work and then
to devote to to mentorship of

01:00:58.464 --> 01:01:02.784
your, of your children or, or other
people's children for that matter.

01:01:03.714 --> 01:01:07.134
And so that, that's, I think
that's the, that's the problem.

01:01:07.134 --> 01:01:10.404
I don't think there's an easy
way to turn that around if you're

01:01:10.434 --> 01:01:12.474
not willing to make the choice.

01:01:12.864 --> 01:01:15.954
Now, one of the other things that
I think is really interesting is,

01:01:16.014 --> 01:01:19.944
and, and I'm sure you know this, but
fewer and fewer people are getting

01:01:19.944 --> 01:01:21.324
married today and having kids.

01:01:21.624 --> 01:01:25.134
In many countries, including the
United States, the birth rate is down.

01:01:25.434 --> 01:01:29.034
And if you talk to people that
are living together, or even some

01:01:29.034 --> 01:01:32.154
that do get married, they have
no interest in having children.

01:01:32.764 --> 01:01:35.404
And that, that's a whole different issue.

01:01:35.434 --> 01:01:40.314
But I think we would, you know, five
years from now, 10 years from now,

01:01:40.314 --> 01:01:45.234
we'll be having a completely different
conversation about this because we'll

01:01:45.234 --> 01:01:49.914
have screwed up this generation and
there may not be another generation.

01:01:50.754 --> 01:01:51.984
Rupert Isaacson: What
conversation will we be having?

01:01:52.974 --> 01:01:58.204
Eric Robertson: I think we'll be having
a conversation about why people don't

01:01:58.264 --> 01:02:03.214
want to procreate, why they don't
want to have a, a son or a daughter,

01:02:03.214 --> 01:02:05.864
why they don't want to have children.

01:02:05.864 --> 01:02:06.764
What is, what is it?

01:02:06.769 --> 01:02:07.544
Rupert Isaacson: Why,
why do you think it is?

01:02:07.544 --> 01:02:08.474
Why do you think people don't?

01:02:08.754 --> 01:02:11.354
Eric Robertson: Well, I think
I'll go back to the greed thing.

01:02:11.354 --> 01:02:15.769
I think a lot of it has to do
with, in, in Austin, Texas.

01:02:15.769 --> 01:02:19.159
I will tell you, a lot of it has to do
with, it's so expensive to live here.

01:02:19.399 --> 01:02:19.754
Rupert Isaacson: Mm mm

01:02:19.939 --> 01:02:25.849
Eric Robertson: And that the idea that
I can barely afford to live with this

01:02:25.939 --> 01:02:31.099
partner that I have, let alone bring
another person into the world and

01:02:31.099 --> 01:02:33.109
have to cover the expenses of that.

01:02:33.379 --> 01:02:33.469
Mm-hmm.

01:02:33.469 --> 01:02:35.719
For a lot of people is is really daunting.

01:02:35.899 --> 01:02:40.519
Plus, I think that some of the things
we've talked about, about how young

01:02:40.519 --> 01:02:49.159
people, young men in particular are
pulling away from connection with other

01:02:49.159 --> 01:02:51.499
people is going to lead to some of that.

01:02:51.869 --> 01:02:57.379
You know, as I was going through
the the, my last master's degree

01:02:57.379 --> 01:03:02.599
program, I did an internship at the
University of Texas seeing college kids.

01:03:03.049 --> 01:03:08.329
And I gotta tell you, it was, a little
bit depressing what comes into the

01:03:08.329 --> 01:03:10.279
room with college kids these days?

01:03:10.549 --> 01:03:10.759
Rupert Isaacson: Tell me

01:03:11.269 --> 01:03:14.059
Eric Robertson: they have difficulty
again, these, all these same things.

01:03:14.059 --> 01:03:16.159
They have difficulty making connection.

01:03:16.339 --> 01:03:20.209
Even those that want it, don't
know how to go out there and do it.

01:03:20.639 --> 01:03:24.359
And how to, how to connect with other
people, how to find other people.

01:03:24.719 --> 01:03:29.249
There is probably twice as many women
on college campuses now than men.

01:03:29.879 --> 01:03:38.099
And so the, the, the dating pool for men
may be big, but if you, if you do the, the

01:03:38.099 --> 01:03:43.649
math on it there's, there's not a, there's
not a, a girl for every boy on campus.

01:03:43.949 --> 01:03:49.919
And so there's, there's a lot of things
that, and, and even in, in college

01:03:50.199 --> 01:03:56.089
after COVID when people were all kind
of taken away from having any community

01:03:56.479 --> 01:03:56.719
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.

01:03:57.149 --> 01:04:00.894
Eric Robertson: To being online
a lot of those people started.

01:04:01.404 --> 01:04:05.214
In high school and then transitioned
into college during that period of

01:04:05.214 --> 01:04:10.314
time, they completely lost out the
learning curve that they would've

01:04:10.314 --> 01:04:13.914
gained if they were going to school
every day and out there in public.

01:04:14.574 --> 01:04:14.814
And

01:04:14.814 --> 01:04:17.184
Rupert Isaacson: yeah, that, that
learning, the, you know, it's

01:04:17.184 --> 01:04:21.744
interesting 'cause I went to an all
boys school for a long time, and I

01:04:21.744 --> 01:04:26.154
remember when I came out of that I was,
I didn't go the full trajectory to 18.

01:04:26.514 --> 01:04:33.024
I got, I came out at 16 and went
transitioned to a, an early college where

01:04:33.024 --> 01:04:40.704
there were girls and I didn't know how
to talk to this alien species because I

01:04:40.704 --> 01:04:42.354
just had not been exposed to them at all.

01:04:42.354 --> 01:04:42.414
Yeah.

01:04:42.924 --> 01:04:49.704
It resolved itself over, over time, but it
wasn't disrupted by something like COVID.

01:04:50.434 --> 01:04:54.814
I think that the, yeah, the
inability to actually physically

01:04:54.814 --> 01:04:55.879
meet and talk to each other.

01:04:57.679 --> 01:05:05.179
Meant something rather cataclysmic
for the our generation.

01:05:05.179 --> 01:05:08.329
And it seems though that it's not
that girls haven't come out of

01:05:08.329 --> 01:05:11.149
it with that, with mental health
problems, but it does seem that the

01:05:11.149 --> 01:05:14.209
boys seem to be more impacted by it.

01:05:14.989 --> 01:05:16.669
And I wonder why that is.

01:05:16.909 --> 01:05:25.219
Is it because young males need
biologically seem to, need

01:05:25.489 --> 01:05:29.419
biologically to go out and sort
of have these adventures together,

01:05:30.319 --> 01:05:32.089
these physical adventures together?

01:05:32.149 --> 01:05:36.379
Some people do it through sport and like
heavy contact sports or some people do it

01:05:36.499 --> 01:05:40.939
right going hunting or some people do it
through, you know, we're all skateboarding

01:05:40.939 --> 01:05:45.649
at the park and some people do it through
this and some people do it through that.

01:05:46.089 --> 01:05:50.349
. I think that young men
in particular need risk.

01:05:51.259 --> 01:05:53.749
They need risk, like they need oxygen.

01:05:54.259 --> 01:05:54.349
Mm-hmm.

01:05:54.629 --> 01:05:58.859
Because again, having lived with
hunters and gatherers, what one

01:05:58.859 --> 01:06:04.259
observes is that hunting and gathering
roles are not completely gender.

01:06:05.189 --> 01:06:09.839
Assigned, but they're largely gender
assigned, just purely by convenience

01:06:09.839 --> 01:06:14.429
in that, let's say you have a baby
at hip, you're not going to, or

01:06:14.429 --> 01:06:17.579
you're pregnant, you're not going to
run down an antelope at that point.

01:06:18.129 --> 01:06:22.839
You might do it as a young
girl before you got pregnant.

01:06:23.299 --> 01:06:24.184
But gender.

01:06:24.604 --> 01:06:28.534
And then of course when you go out
gathering for wild foods, which ends

01:06:28.534 --> 01:06:31.744
up being a predominantly female thing,
it doesn't mean you're never hunting.

01:06:32.194 --> 01:06:36.994
And interestingly, you know, as a male,
you're, you are also gathering as you

01:06:36.994 --> 01:06:40.894
hunt and noticing where wild foods
are and you're gonna report that back.

01:06:40.894 --> 01:06:42.664
And so, so there, there is crossover.

01:06:42.724 --> 01:06:49.664
However there, there are a certain
amount of gender roles and young men

01:06:49.664 --> 01:06:52.214
know that they're going to have to face.

01:06:53.639 --> 01:06:56.009
Animals to hunt that will hunt them back.

01:06:56.219 --> 01:06:57.419
That's the crucial thing.

01:06:57.419 --> 01:07:01.049
So I've observed this when you go and
you hunt some, it's not lions, you're

01:07:01.049 --> 01:07:03.959
not hunting lions, but you might
have to go chase lions off a kill.

01:07:04.739 --> 01:07:04.829
Eric Robertson: Mm-hmm.

01:07:05.249 --> 01:07:07.499
Rupert Isaacson: And the lion will
have something to say about that.

01:07:08.029 --> 01:07:16.909
And you will encounter an antelope
like hems book or bush buck, that there

01:07:16.909 --> 01:07:22.579
are these particular types of antelope
that are known that when they, once

01:07:22.579 --> 01:07:24.979
they figure out that you are hunting
them, they'll turn around and hunt you

01:07:24.979 --> 01:07:31.039
back and they've got a pretty strong
likelihood of getting it and you need to

01:07:31.039 --> 01:07:34.819
know how to dive, lean into that risk,

01:07:37.759 --> 01:07:38.329
et cetera.

01:07:38.329 --> 01:07:41.599
So it seems that over however many
hundreds of thousands of years

01:07:42.889 --> 01:07:46.489
young boys have need risk taking.

01:07:46.489 --> 01:07:48.259
And it's interesting that
you were talking at the.

01:07:48.844 --> 01:07:52.834
Early part of this conversation
about elevated risk taking as

01:07:52.834 --> 01:07:56.944
a as a mental health deficit.

01:07:58.324 --> 01:08:05.374
But one thing I know is that risk
taking is necessary as well, but it's

01:08:05.374 --> 01:08:08.284
supposed to be done under mentorship.

01:08:08.524 --> 01:08:13.204
You're supposed to go out with the older
hunters, just as you go out with the older

01:08:13.204 --> 01:08:16.534
gatherers and say, no, not that mushroom,
but that mushroom, that mushroom,

01:08:16.534 --> 01:08:18.094
there's gonna kill the entire family.

01:08:18.094 --> 01:08:21.184
That even though it looks similar to that
mushroom there, you, you need that one.

01:08:21.334 --> 01:08:25.684
Similarly with the hunting, you don't
just blindly go in and take these

01:08:25.684 --> 01:08:30.394
risks, but there will be a point
where you will have to do it solo.

01:08:30.754 --> 01:08:33.214
And so you're gonna get there gradually.

01:08:34.054 --> 01:08:35.644
And this involves, of course, tribe.

01:08:35.644 --> 01:08:36.694
This involves community.

01:08:36.694 --> 01:08:42.034
This involves actual people
showing you what to do and actual

01:08:42.034 --> 01:08:45.274
risk in a natural environment.

01:08:45.814 --> 01:08:49.084
So the boys at the skate park
who are risking breaking their

01:08:49.084 --> 01:08:53.374
legs as they're skating down, you
know, the courthouse steps mm-hmm.

01:08:53.794 --> 01:08:57.484
Are fulfilling a biological need
and they shouldn't be chased off.

01:08:58.054 --> 01:08:58.294
Eric Robertson: Right.

01:08:58.374 --> 01:09:00.264
Rupert Isaacson: They're actually
doing it quite creatively 'cause

01:09:00.264 --> 01:09:01.764
they're harming no one but themselves.

01:09:02.754 --> 01:09:05.154
It's why young men also go
out and get into fights.

01:09:05.154 --> 01:09:11.574
It's, it's all of this stuff and it
doesn't need to be antisocial, but

01:09:11.574 --> 01:09:14.964
whether you think it should be there
or shouldn't be there, it's there.

01:09:15.384 --> 01:09:15.444
Yeah.

01:09:15.444 --> 01:09:18.474
And that's why the video games
present as they do and all of that.

01:09:19.254 --> 01:09:23.604
So in the absence of that
what, how do you help people?

01:09:23.664 --> 01:09:27.954
So for example, in my work, you
know, so much of what I do is

01:09:27.954 --> 01:09:29.304
reconnecting people with nature.

01:09:29.874 --> 01:09:30.084
Eric Robertson: Mm-hmm.

01:09:30.484 --> 01:09:34.054
Rupert Isaacson: And saying
before we have any discussion over

01:09:36.574 --> 01:09:41.464
your endocrine system, which is
producing the moods that you've got.

01:09:42.349 --> 01:09:45.679
We need to be in an environment
that's working for us, not against us.

01:09:45.889 --> 01:09:49.039
And I remember this when I was
going through talk therapy and

01:09:49.039 --> 01:09:50.629
it wasn't really working for me.

01:09:51.169 --> 01:09:56.689
I remember asking the therapist,
I can see the woods outside.

01:09:57.169 --> 01:09:57.469
Eric Robertson: Yeah,

01:09:58.099 --> 01:10:00.079
Rupert Isaacson: I know
something about neuroscience.

01:10:00.259 --> 01:10:03.139
Please, can we not be in this?

01:10:03.469 --> 01:10:05.059
I'm sitting here, you're sitting there.

01:10:05.389 --> 01:10:09.109
Thing where I'm feeling, I'm
itching to get out of my skin and

01:10:09.109 --> 01:10:10.609
I'm feeling a bit shamed anyway.

01:10:10.639 --> 01:10:14.629
And can we not go out there
and walk under the trees?

01:10:14.629 --> 01:10:16.129
It will go better if we do.

01:10:16.159 --> 01:10:16.459
Eric Robertson: Sure.

01:10:16.699 --> 01:10:18.619
Rupert Isaacson: And I
couldn't get this guy to do it.

01:10:18.619 --> 01:10:21.169
And finally I said, I'll pay you double.

01:10:22.579 --> 01:10:25.609
I'll pay you, I'll pay you for the,
an extra hour for the 10 minutes

01:10:25.609 --> 01:10:26.659
it takes us to walk out there.

01:10:26.659 --> 01:10:28.069
And the 10 minutes walk back.

01:10:28.819 --> 01:10:32.389
And where I think he was uncomfortable
with it is, I think it actually affected

01:10:32.389 --> 01:10:36.169
the power balance that he rather
liked that this can happen in therapy.

01:10:36.199 --> 01:10:40.849
That, that the therapist
has a certain power and.

01:10:41.854 --> 01:10:45.214
It became a little bit more collegial.

01:10:46.024 --> 01:10:49.774
So I couldn't really persuade him to
keep going, but I probably, I know I got

01:10:49.774 --> 01:10:51.934
more out of the few sessions I managed to

01:10:52.294 --> 01:10:52.744
Eric Robertson: Sure.

01:10:52.894 --> 01:10:54.034
Rupert Isaacson: Bully him to go outside.

01:10:54.434 --> 01:10:59.134
If you made it this far into the podcast,
then I'm guessing you're somebody

01:10:59.144 --> 01:11:04.124
that, like me, loves to read books
about not just how people have achieved

01:11:04.134 --> 01:11:10.134
self actualization, but particularly
about the relationship with nature.

01:11:10.584 --> 01:11:13.764
Spirituality, life, the
universe, and everything.

01:11:14.504 --> 01:11:17.454
And I'd like to draw your
attention to my books.

01:11:17.464 --> 01:11:22.144
If you would like to read the story
of how we even arrived here, perhaps

01:11:22.144 --> 01:11:26.604
you'd like to check out the two New
York Times bestsellers, The Horseboy

01:11:27.304 --> 01:11:32.274
and The Long Ride Home, and come on an
adventure with us and see what engendered,

01:11:32.334 --> 01:11:34.484
what started Live Free Ride Free.

01:11:34.504 --> 01:11:38.284
And before we go back to the
podcast, also check out The Healing

01:11:38.284 --> 01:11:40.774
Land, which tells the story of.

01:11:41.479 --> 01:11:46.869
My years spent in the Kalahari with the
Sun, Bushmen, hunter gatherer people

01:11:46.869 --> 01:11:51.029
there, and all that they taught me, and
mentored me in, and all that I learned.

01:11:51.279 --> 01:11:52.539
Come on that adventure with me.

01:11:52.614 --> 01:12:00.384
So talk to me about this because you know,
you, you know as well as I do that Yes.

01:12:00.384 --> 01:12:01.854
Males kind of need this.

01:12:02.274 --> 01:12:02.574
Eric Robertson: Yeah.

01:12:02.874 --> 01:12:03.744
Rupert Isaacson: Don't get it.

01:12:05.514 --> 01:12:06.804
It then turns weird.

01:12:07.794 --> 01:12:08.064
Eric Robertson: Yeah.

01:12:08.334 --> 01:12:09.684
Rupert Isaacson: You are
now in a therapy situation.

01:12:09.684 --> 01:12:10.164
What do you do?

01:12:10.494 --> 01:12:10.794
Eric Robertson: Yeah.

01:12:10.914 --> 01:12:11.214
Yeah.

01:12:11.634 --> 01:12:15.354
Well, let me, let me start
by saying this because I, I

01:12:15.354 --> 01:12:16.464
agree with what you're saying.

01:12:16.774 --> 01:12:23.224
I think that we need to provide
male affirming spaces where boys

01:12:23.224 --> 01:12:26.344
and men can talk while doing

01:12:26.734 --> 01:12:27.064
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:12:27.559 --> 01:12:31.309
Eric Robertson: And, and I, I, I think
that in a, in a traditional therapy

01:12:31.369 --> 01:12:33.919
practice, that that is often hard to do.

01:12:33.919 --> 01:12:38.959
I mean, if you're lucky enough to have an
office that's next to a a nature preserve

01:12:38.959 --> 01:12:43.199
or a hiking trail or something like that
I think, I think that's, that's great.

01:12:43.199 --> 01:12:48.949
And I think that I'm, you know, as
an attorney, there was definitely

01:12:49.819 --> 01:12:55.399
a hierarchy and a balance of power
between the attorney and the client.

01:12:55.609 --> 01:13:01.549
And when I left that and got into therapy,
I got into therapy with the mindset

01:13:01.549 --> 01:13:03.919
that I'm, I'm doing away with that.

01:13:04.379 --> 01:13:06.629
There's no longer gonna
be a balance of power.

01:13:06.629 --> 01:13:10.529
It's just me and this person
who's come to me with particular

01:13:10.529 --> 01:13:12.389
issue that wants to work on that.

01:13:12.809 --> 01:13:17.069
And I don't, I don't know more,
any more about that issue that

01:13:17.069 --> 01:13:19.919
he's struggling with than he does.

01:13:20.819 --> 01:13:27.319
So I need to be in the room and
present and acknowledge that that

01:13:27.319 --> 01:13:29.299
we're, we're on this journey together.

01:13:30.139 --> 01:13:31.069
You know, there, there's.

01:13:31.684 --> 01:13:36.214
Without going into all of the, the
different modalities that, that

01:13:36.214 --> 01:13:40.714
I, I was taught in school or that
I've picked up after getting outta

01:13:40.714 --> 01:13:45.214
school that I, I practice with you
know, I, I like to use skill-based

01:13:45.214 --> 01:13:49.354
therapies where there's some engagement
with the other, with the client.

01:13:49.874 --> 01:13:53.024
I've always thought I have an interest
in, in weightlifting, and I always

01:13:53.024 --> 01:13:56.384
thought I, I would love to have my own gym

01:13:56.594 --> 01:13:56.774
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.

01:13:57.014 --> 01:14:02.084
Eric Robertson: And have a therapy
for men that, like that kind of thing.

01:14:02.084 --> 01:14:04.694
Because I think that's, again,
that's what you're talking about.

01:14:04.694 --> 01:14:05.864
You're, you're engaged.

01:14:05.864 --> 01:14:05.924
Yeah.

01:14:05.924 --> 01:14:06.734
Rupert Isaacson: Why not do that?

01:14:06.764 --> 01:14:07.394
Why not do that?

01:14:07.394 --> 01:14:07.454
Yeah,

01:14:07.514 --> 01:14:07.814
Eric Robertson: yeah.

01:14:07.819 --> 01:14:07.999
Yeah.

01:14:08.144 --> 01:14:09.914
Rupert Isaacson: I know, for
example, you're also a boxer.

01:14:10.334 --> 01:14:10.424
Eric Robertson: Yeah.

01:14:10.424 --> 01:14:10.604
Why

01:14:10.604 --> 01:14:11.084
Rupert Isaacson: not?

01:14:11.654 --> 01:14:13.994
Why not introduce that
into a therapy session?

01:14:14.024 --> 01:14:15.404
Eric Robertson: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:14:15.764 --> 01:14:20.714
Well, for me right now, the, the problem
is just having the facilities to do that.

01:14:20.714 --> 01:14:24.254
Now again, that, that,
that's a, that's something.

01:14:24.779 --> 01:14:28.919
That I, I think would be great, and
I'd like to do that and, and perhaps at

01:14:28.919 --> 01:14:33.659
some point would be able to do that, but
I, I think it is, I important that you

01:14:33.659 --> 01:14:35.519
explore those things with the client.

01:14:35.524 --> 01:14:35.904
Mm-hmm.

01:14:36.009 --> 01:14:39.639
You know, that, that's parting to getting
to know the client in the very beginning

01:14:39.639 --> 01:14:41.829
is what is this client all about?

01:14:41.829 --> 01:14:43.089
What do, what do they enjoy?

01:14:43.089 --> 01:14:44.229
What do they like to do?

01:14:44.579 --> 01:14:49.139
Unfortunately, therapists see a
lot of clients that are just so

01:14:49.139 --> 01:14:54.699
disengaged with the world that they
don't know what their interests are.

01:14:54.999 --> 01:14:57.909
And so a lot of what we
do is try to explore that.

01:14:57.909 --> 01:14:59.169
What are your values?

01:14:59.499 --> 01:15:01.059
What are your goals in life?

01:15:01.089 --> 01:15:03.069
Where do you want to be in five years?

01:15:03.459 --> 01:15:06.909
And to get some idea
of who that person is.

01:15:06.909 --> 01:15:11.229
But I, I, I hear what you're saying and I
think it is important, and I would never,

01:15:11.234 --> 01:15:12.849
Rupert Isaacson: there's, there's
been, there's been some interesting

01:15:12.849 --> 01:15:14.229
science come out of it lately.

01:15:14.269 --> 01:15:16.094
You know, as you know, I do
a lot of work with equine.

01:15:16.354 --> 01:15:16.774
Mm-hmm.

01:15:17.434 --> 01:15:21.674
A recent study got published which is to
do with domestic violence and perpetrators

01:15:21.674 --> 01:15:23.114
of domestic violence, by the way.

01:15:23.814 --> 01:15:24.834
Both male and female.

01:15:25.344 --> 01:15:25.974
And

01:15:28.644 --> 01:15:35.544
the results showed that after a five week
intervention, it was once a week, I think.

01:15:36.154 --> 01:15:37.954
This is through the University
of Bournemouth in the uk.

01:15:38.374 --> 01:15:46.144
There was a 51% decrease in re-offending.

01:15:46.144 --> 01:15:46.984
Mm-hmm.

01:15:47.884 --> 01:15:53.134
A year after finishing
that short intervention.

01:15:53.284 --> 01:15:59.734
And that most of the people who
had attended that equine thing had

01:15:59.794 --> 01:16:03.334
dropped outta talk therapy because
they just didn't want to do it.

01:16:03.874 --> 01:16:08.764
And what they found was that not
only did the horses provide all

01:16:08.794 --> 01:16:10.094
these interesting metaphors and.

01:16:11.884 --> 01:16:18.484
There was nature going on, but that the
relationship that the people formed with

01:16:18.484 --> 01:16:21.724
the horse made them want to come back.

01:16:22.574 --> 01:16:24.524
But they couldn't really
empathize with the therapist.

01:16:24.614 --> 01:16:27.734
So the therapist could get out
of the way and they could form

01:16:27.734 --> 01:16:28.454
a relationship with horse.

01:16:28.514 --> 01:16:30.704
They actually wanted to come back
and spend time with this horse.

01:16:31.244 --> 01:16:31.574
Eric Robertson: Yeah.

01:16:31.634 --> 01:16:34.484
Rupert Isaacson: And so therefore
they finished the program.

01:16:35.424 --> 01:16:40.524
'Cause as you know, a lot of people in
programs drop out and I wonder about this.

01:16:40.524 --> 01:16:44.454
You know, we had recently here
on the farm where I'm living, a

01:16:44.454 --> 01:16:48.564
friend of mine brought her son who
was not coming out of the room.

01:16:49.374 --> 01:16:51.474
And we were lucky.

01:16:51.474 --> 01:16:52.674
We had three weeks.

01:16:53.124 --> 01:16:56.934
And I said, just bring him, because
the way of life here, I think

01:16:56.934 --> 01:17:03.174
will begin to sort it out because
there's no heating in this house.

01:17:03.774 --> 01:17:07.794
And if you want to be warm and it's
winter, now you have to cut wood.

01:17:08.559 --> 01:17:10.029
And you have to make a fire.

01:17:10.419 --> 01:17:12.819
It, there is just no alternative.

01:17:12.819 --> 01:17:13.989
There are no radiators.

01:17:14.469 --> 01:17:17.379
It's a 500 year old house
and it has never had heating.

01:17:17.409 --> 01:17:21.039
Mm-hmm And to get the wood, we have
to go up on the mountain and we have

01:17:21.039 --> 01:17:26.919
to cut it and we are not doing it
in a kind of a depressed, oh shit,

01:17:26.919 --> 01:17:28.179
this is terrible sort of a way.

01:17:28.779 --> 01:17:28.899
Right.

01:17:28.899 --> 01:17:31.359
We're having a bit of a laugh
while we do it, but if we

01:17:31.359 --> 01:17:34.029
don't do it, we won't get warm.

01:17:34.029 --> 01:17:37.389
And that's before you look at the
other things that we do on the farm

01:17:37.389 --> 01:17:38.919
that there is just this bottom line.

01:17:39.669 --> 01:17:42.099
And it was very interesting.

01:17:43.689 --> 01:17:49.629
We left him alone a bit at first and then
he came out of the room saying, I'm bored.

01:17:50.139 --> 01:17:51.069
And we said, great.

01:17:51.759 --> 01:17:53.049
Let's go do something then.

01:17:54.219 --> 01:17:56.259
Or you can go back to
your room if you want.

01:17:56.259 --> 01:17:56.769
We went force.

01:17:56.769 --> 01:17:56.829
Be

01:17:56.829 --> 01:17:57.099
Eric Robertson: bored.

01:17:57.099 --> 01:17:57.159
Yeah.

01:17:57.249 --> 01:17:57.339
I

01:17:57.339 --> 01:17:59.469
Rupert Isaacson: don't want to go
back to the room 'cause I'm cold.

01:17:59.904 --> 01:18:00.834
Fantastic.

01:18:00.954 --> 01:18:02.394
I have a solution.

01:18:02.934 --> 01:18:05.574
We were just about to go up
the mountain to get some wood.

01:18:05.604 --> 01:18:06.774
I don't really want to do that.

01:18:07.074 --> 01:18:07.644
Okay, fine.

01:18:07.644 --> 01:18:08.244
No worries.

01:18:08.304 --> 01:18:09.414
You don't need to do that.

01:18:09.774 --> 01:18:13.764
We'll go up there and we'll bring some
down, but we'll see you in an hour.

01:18:13.764 --> 01:18:14.754
So of course that happened.

01:18:14.754 --> 01:18:17.994
And then the next time he came up the
mountain, and then before you know

01:18:17.994 --> 01:18:20.244
it, he was up there chopping wood.

01:18:20.304 --> 01:18:24.604
And what was interesting is that
when he went home he then became more

01:18:24.604 --> 01:18:27.664
and more engaged in what was going
on and then went out and exploring.

01:18:28.714 --> 01:18:35.014
He's now gone back to his suburban context
where he doesn't have those resources

01:18:35.014 --> 01:18:37.444
available to him outside the front door.

01:18:37.444 --> 01:18:41.284
So he said to his mom, oh, but don't worry
if I fall back in, I, I'll always go back.

01:18:41.374 --> 01:18:43.564
I can go back to that farm and reset.

01:18:44.314 --> 01:18:44.644
Eric Robertson: Yeah.

01:18:45.724 --> 01:18:48.904
Rupert Isaacson: So what I'm
wondering is, because you know

01:18:48.934 --> 01:18:50.554
the value of these things.

01:18:50.959 --> 01:18:51.469
Yeah.

01:18:51.679 --> 01:18:53.899
And you now have this new
career in front of you.

01:18:54.199 --> 01:18:57.049
Are you looking at partnering
with nature-based things and

01:18:57.049 --> 01:19:00.199
equine things and that sort of
thing and sports-based things?

01:19:00.469 --> 01:19:01.399
Eric Robertson: Sure, sure.

01:19:01.404 --> 01:19:01.594
And

01:19:01.599 --> 01:19:01.699
Rupert Isaacson: and

01:19:01.699 --> 01:19:04.399
Eric Robertson: yeah, to the extent,
to the extent those are out there,

01:19:04.399 --> 01:19:07.399
and I can find those, I think those
are something that I would like

01:19:07.399 --> 01:19:09.109
to integrate into my practice.

01:19:09.259 --> 01:19:09.409
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:19:09.409 --> 01:19:13.369
Eric Robertson: You know, I think
programs that combine mental health

01:19:13.369 --> 01:19:18.499
support and mentoring and coaching
and vocational identity and other

01:19:18.559 --> 01:19:22.249
activities are very important for men.

01:19:22.309 --> 01:19:28.789
I think they, they, they have a very
good chance of, of higher engagement.

01:19:29.329 --> 01:19:29.629
Mm-hmm.

01:19:29.679 --> 01:19:30.999
With men especially.

01:19:31.539 --> 01:19:37.229
And obviously as I go forward and,
and build a practice with that

01:19:37.229 --> 01:19:40.499
focus, that's gonna be important
to look out there for, for that.

01:19:41.099 --> 01:19:41.399
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:19:42.479 --> 01:19:44.739
The, the kids that were
coming to you in the.

01:19:45.404 --> 01:19:48.754
That internship that you
did at the university?

01:19:49.054 --> 01:19:49.204
Eric Robertson: Mm-hmm.

01:19:49.444 --> 01:19:51.874
Rupert Isaacson: How many of
them had gone, had parents

01:19:51.874 --> 01:19:53.194
who'd gone through bad divorces?

01:19:54.884 --> 01:19:55.784
Eric Robertson: There were several.

01:19:55.874 --> 01:19:56.414
There were several.

01:19:56.414 --> 01:19:56.474
Yeah.

01:19:56.479 --> 01:19:59.114
I, I couldn't say it was a
majority, but there were several.

01:20:00.254 --> 01:20:01.754
Rupert Isaacson: Did you
notice a pattern there?

01:20:01.754 --> 01:20:05.414
Were there patterns of certain
types of behavior or emotional

01:20:05.414 --> 01:20:07.664
state that you could say

01:20:07.814 --> 01:20:08.204
Eric Robertson: Yeah,

01:20:08.209 --> 01:20:08.439
Rupert Isaacson: that,

01:20:08.439 --> 01:20:08.679
Eric Robertson: yeah.

01:20:08.684 --> 01:20:12.344
Not, not that we're significantly
different from those whose

01:20:12.344 --> 01:20:14.324
parents were still married.

01:20:14.654 --> 01:20:14.684
Okay.

01:20:14.684 --> 01:20:20.744
Now, again, I don't know you know,
you're, when you deal with young

01:20:20.744 --> 01:20:26.984
people, it is sometimes difficult
to get them to give you all of the

01:20:26.984 --> 01:20:29.264
information that you would like to have.

01:20:29.654 --> 01:20:33.524
So I don't know how many of those people
whose parents were still together.

01:20:34.229 --> 01:20:37.859
Or could describe their parents'
relationship as being a good one, right?

01:20:37.859 --> 01:20:38.219
Or not?

01:20:38.909 --> 01:20:39.119
Yeah.

01:20:39.119 --> 01:20:42.479
You can ask those questions and
a lot of time they say things

01:20:42.479 --> 01:20:43.619
like, yeah, they're, they're fine.

01:20:44.159 --> 01:20:44.549
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:20:44.744 --> 01:20:46.859
Eric Robertson: That, that doesn't
give me a lot to work with.

01:20:46.859 --> 01:20:48.949
But that's just the nature of

01:20:49.369 --> 01:20:49.519
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:20:49.519 --> 01:20:51.499
Eric Robertson: Dealing
with somebody who's frontal

01:20:51.499 --> 01:20:53.449
cortex isn't fully developed.

01:20:54.109 --> 01:20:54.559
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:20:54.739 --> 01:20:55.399
Eric Robertson: And that, that's,

01:20:55.399 --> 01:20:56.989
Rupert Isaacson: talk to us
about that actually, because not

01:20:56.989 --> 01:20:58.669
everybody knows that neuroscience.

01:20:58.669 --> 01:21:02.099
So, talk to us about the development
of the frontal cortex versus the

01:21:02.099 --> 01:21:04.259
limbic system and why this matters.

01:21:04.319 --> 01:21:04.619
Yeah.

01:21:04.679 --> 01:21:06.989
Eric Robertson: Well, the, the
frontal cortex doesn't fully

01:21:06.989 --> 01:21:12.609
develop in humans until they're
in their mid to late twenties.

01:21:12.669 --> 01:21:14.169
Rupert Isaacson: And what
does the frontal cortex do?

01:21:14.709 --> 01:21:18.129
Eric Robertson: The con that, that
is the higher level of thought.

01:21:18.129 --> 01:21:20.709
That's where your higher
level of thought comes from.

01:21:20.709 --> 01:21:23.229
And your rational thought comes from

01:21:23.349 --> 01:21:24.309
Rupert Isaacson: figuring shit out,

01:21:24.789 --> 01:21:25.719
Eric Robertson: figuring shit out.

01:21:25.769 --> 01:21:31.409
The limbic system is that part that,
what I call the reptilian brain that is

01:21:31.409 --> 01:21:33.449
involved in the fight or flight, right?

01:21:33.749 --> 01:21:37.449
When you're faced with something
terrible, you either shut down you,

01:21:37.509 --> 01:21:40.419
you explode and fight, or you run off.

01:21:40.999 --> 01:21:47.239
So the, for young people, they're
not operating on all cylinders, so to

01:21:47.239 --> 01:21:52.419
speak when, when they're faced with
a crisis and they're not able to to

01:21:52.419 --> 01:21:56.859
really think through rationally what
their options are and how, how they're

01:21:56.859 --> 01:21:58.779
gonna solve the, whatever the issue is.

01:21:58.894 --> 01:21:59.314
Mm-hmm.

01:22:00.734 --> 01:22:01.514
Rupert Isaacson: No, absolutely.

01:22:01.879 --> 01:22:05.689
And this is obviously something in our
work, we look at all the time that yeah,

01:22:05.689 --> 01:22:07.249
it's a little bit like in adolescence.

01:22:07.249 --> 01:22:10.849
Your nose gets a bit big and then
another part of you gets a bit big

01:22:10.849 --> 01:22:14.029
and then the rest catches up and
it's exactly the same in the brain.

01:22:14.379 --> 01:22:22.299
And when the limbic system is ahead of the
CEO of the brain, the, the frontal cortex.

01:22:23.004 --> 01:22:27.504
Things get funky and people get
overactive and self-absorbed.

01:22:28.074 --> 01:22:31.614
And then we are hard on young
people for this, but actually it's

01:22:31.614 --> 01:22:34.914
exactly how nature has designed it.

01:22:34.914 --> 01:22:37.974
They have no more choice in the
matter, right, than a toddler does.

01:22:38.124 --> 01:22:38.214
Right.

01:22:38.244 --> 01:22:40.554
She's going through actually a
similar type of thing, and as you

01:22:40.554 --> 01:22:43.854
say, it doesn't resolve itself
until the mid late twenties.

01:22:44.394 --> 01:22:47.544
So that thing of figuring shit out
and handling your shit, emotional

01:22:47.544 --> 01:22:52.224
regulation, you can't do that
actually when your limbic system

01:22:52.224 --> 01:22:55.614
is in, is overtaken in the race.

01:22:56.334 --> 01:22:59.154
But now some people seem
to stay there though.

01:23:00.124 --> 01:23:05.074
You know, one, one meets quite a lot of
56 year olds who are still mentally and

01:23:05.074 --> 01:23:08.914
emotionally where they were at 12 to 15.

01:23:09.694 --> 01:23:12.184
What do you think is going on there?

01:23:13.879 --> 01:23:16.214
Because you see those clients,
those are the clients that are

01:23:16.214 --> 01:23:18.349
not listening to you as a lawyer.

01:23:18.354 --> 01:23:18.444
Yeah.

01:23:19.069 --> 01:23:19.369
Eric Robertson: Yeah.

01:23:19.699 --> 01:23:21.199
You know, it, it's really,

01:23:23.299 --> 01:23:27.199
I don't know that I can say that the
development hasn't happened so much

01:23:27.199 --> 01:23:34.189
as sometimes the Olympic system just
kind of overwhelms the court, the, the

01:23:34.369 --> 01:23:39.109
frontal cortex and, and they just, they
get so overwhelmed with what's going on

01:23:39.109 --> 01:23:42.049
around them that it kind of goes offline.

01:23:43.999 --> 01:23:48.469
Rupert Isaacson: What is your strategy
for helping them get it back online?

01:23:49.399 --> 01:23:51.829
Eric Robertson: Well, we do a
lot of emotional regulation.

01:23:52.289 --> 01:23:55.439
We, you know, a lot of times
people come into the office and

01:23:55.439 --> 01:23:57.209
they're just so dysregulated.

01:23:57.599 --> 01:24:00.989
We have to do some breathing exercises
to begin with, or we have, I have some

01:24:00.989 --> 01:24:07.269
other exercises that that I, I use to
help some tapping, self-tapping apps

01:24:07.429 --> 01:24:14.714
exercises, which are that come out of the
EMDR area that help people tell us about

01:24:14.879 --> 01:24:15.299
Rupert Isaacson: tapping.

01:24:15.299 --> 01:24:16.409
Why does tapping work?

01:24:16.869 --> 01:24:21.939
Eric Robertson: Bilateral tapping
allows people to, not really sure

01:24:21.939 --> 01:24:26.159
how it works, but it allows people
to to regulate their emotions in the

01:24:26.159 --> 01:24:34.019
moment and to bring themself back
to a more state of stasis and calm.

01:24:34.289 --> 01:24:35.999
And it, it's worked.

01:24:35.999 --> 01:24:37.439
It's worked for a lot of my clients

01:24:37.709 --> 01:24:38.939
Rupert Isaacson: and
it's a guided process.

01:24:38.939 --> 01:24:39.119
Right.

01:24:39.119 --> 01:24:40.469
Eric Robertson: And it's a guided process.

01:24:40.499 --> 01:24:40.619
Yeah.

01:24:40.619 --> 01:24:41.159
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:24:41.699 --> 01:24:41.999
Eric Robertson: Yeah.

01:24:42.359 --> 01:24:45.359
Rupert Isaacson: Just take a
two, a minute or two, guide me

01:24:45.359 --> 01:24:46.589
through one, take me through a

01:24:46.589 --> 01:24:46.679
Eric Robertson: time.

01:24:46.679 --> 01:24:47.099
Okay.

01:24:47.459 --> 01:24:53.009
Well, I actually happen to have one
right here that I use with the client.

01:24:54.929 --> 01:24:55.679
This morning.

01:24:56.969 --> 01:24:57.539
And

01:24:57.589 --> 01:25:04.339
so we start with identifying whatever the
issue is that is causing the distress.

01:25:04.339 --> 01:25:06.979
And we bring, we name it,
you name that in the room.

01:25:07.349 --> 01:25:11.189
I'm having s severe anxiety
because I failed a test.

01:25:11.489 --> 01:25:11.639
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:25:11.699 --> 01:25:15.879
Eric Robertson: And then you
rate the intensity of your

01:25:15.879 --> 01:25:18.189
anxiety on a one to 10 scale.

01:25:18.759 --> 01:25:23.999
And then with the tapping, you can
just start by one easy one is just

01:25:23.999 --> 01:25:28.564
tapping the top of your head and
repeating a little mantra that it,

01:25:30.209 --> 01:25:38.129
even though I deeply, or even though
I feel or think or have anxiety over

01:25:38.129 --> 01:25:44.279
this test, I deeply and completely
love, forgive, and accept myself.

01:25:44.669 --> 01:25:49.439
Rupert Isaacson: Even though I'm
having anxiety over this test, I deeply

01:25:49.799 --> 01:25:52.439
love, forgive and appreciate myself.

01:25:52.739 --> 01:25:56.069
Eric Robertson: Yes, and then
you move down to your temples

01:25:56.969 --> 01:25:58.289
and repeat the same thing.

01:25:58.589 --> 01:26:03.659
Even though I feel or think or
have anxiety over this test,

01:26:03.689 --> 01:26:06.929
Rupert Isaacson: even though I think
or feel or have anxiety over this test,

01:26:07.229 --> 01:26:12.774
Eric Robertson: I deeply and completely
love, forgive, and accept says self.

01:26:12.934 --> 01:26:14.669
Rupert Isaacson: I deeply
and completely love.

01:26:14.669 --> 01:26:16.439
Forgive and accept myself.

01:26:17.309 --> 01:26:18.449
Eric Robertson: Move to your forehead.

01:26:18.569 --> 01:26:19.469
Same thing.

01:26:20.369 --> 01:26:25.019
Even though I feel thank or
have anxiety over this test,

01:26:25.019 --> 01:26:28.949
Rupert Isaacson: even though I think,
feel or have anxiety over this test,

01:26:29.999 --> 01:26:34.679
Eric Robertson: I deeply and completely
love, forgive, and accept myself.

01:26:34.709 --> 01:26:38.729
Rupert Isaacson: I deeply and completely
love, forgive and accept myself.

01:26:40.259 --> 01:26:43.649
Eric Robertson: Then we move down to right
under your eyes and you do the same thing.

01:26:46.929 --> 01:26:52.094
Even though, even though I feel, think,
or have anxiety over this test, I

01:26:52.094 --> 01:26:54.464
Rupert Isaacson: feel, think
or have anxiety over this test,

01:26:54.944 --> 01:26:59.144
Eric Robertson: I deeply and completely
love, forgive and accept myself

01:26:59.234 --> 01:27:02.894
Rupert Isaacson: I deeply and completely
love, forgive and accept myself

01:27:05.894 --> 01:27:07.304
Eric Robertson: then
right under your nose.

01:27:09.314 --> 01:27:14.294
Even though I feel, think, or
have anxiety over this test,

01:27:14.324 --> 01:27:17.654
Rupert Isaacson: even though I think,
feel or have anxiety over this test,

01:27:18.194 --> 01:27:22.394
Eric Robertson: I deeply and completely
love, forgive, and accept myself

01:27:22.454 --> 01:27:26.024
Rupert Isaacson: I deeply and completely
love, forgive and accept myself

01:27:27.074 --> 01:27:29.174
Eric Robertson: and then under
your mouth, on your chin.

01:27:30.944 --> 01:27:36.014
Even though I feel, think, or
have anxiety over this test,

01:27:36.014 --> 01:27:37.424
Rupert Isaacson: people
have anxiety over this test.

01:27:37.949 --> 01:27:41.939
Eric Robertson: I deeply and completely
love, forgive and accept myself.

01:27:41.994 --> 01:27:45.209
Rupert Isaacson: I deeply and completely
love, forgive and accept myself.

01:27:49.379 --> 01:27:52.439
Eric Robertson: And if the
person isn't fully regulated,

01:27:52.439 --> 01:27:53.519
we'll go through that again.

01:27:54.299 --> 01:27:55.799
Rupert Isaacson: It does feel better.

01:27:56.669 --> 01:27:56.969
Eric Robertson: Yeah.

01:28:00.059 --> 01:28:02.939
Rupert Isaacson: I would argue that
there's yeah, a creation of endorphins

01:28:02.939 --> 01:28:10.319
there and what's called BDNF, brain
derived neurotrophic factor creating of

01:28:10.349 --> 01:28:13.859
new neurons, novel movement, new pathways.

01:28:14.189 --> 01:28:15.899
But I can definitely feel a difference.

01:28:16.199 --> 01:28:19.679
And you know, I've, I do know people
that do this, but I haven't actually

01:28:19.679 --> 01:28:20.999
done one of those for a while.

01:28:21.629 --> 01:28:24.509
And I have done them in times of
high anxiety and they really do work.

01:28:25.469 --> 01:28:28.259
Do you find that men
resist this stuff, or,

01:28:28.289 --> 01:28:28.619
Eric Robertson: yes.

01:28:28.889 --> 01:28:29.279
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:28:29.284 --> 01:28:29.294
Okay.

01:28:29.579 --> 01:28:29.789
Yeah.

01:28:29.849 --> 01:28:30.179
Eric Robertson: Yeah.

01:28:30.449 --> 01:28:33.329
You gotta get past that touchy feely.

01:28:34.214 --> 01:28:35.234
Kind of mentality.

01:28:35.234 --> 01:28:35.534
How'd you get

01:28:35.534 --> 01:28:35.984
Rupert Isaacson: past it?

01:28:36.984 --> 01:28:41.364
Eric Robertson: Well, a lot of times
I say, Hey, I do this, I do this.

01:28:43.014 --> 01:28:45.024
I used to do this before I'd go to trial.

01:28:45.444 --> 01:28:45.594
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:28:45.594 --> 01:28:48.474
Eric Robertson: I'd be so overwhelmed
with anxiety going into the

01:28:48.474 --> 01:28:53.094
courtroom that I would find a space
someplace and I would do that.

01:28:53.724 --> 01:28:56.184
Rupert Isaacson: Did you get overwhelmed
with anxiety going into the courtroom?

01:28:56.574 --> 01:28:57.144
Eric Robertson: I did.

01:28:57.264 --> 01:28:57.774
I did.

01:28:57.779 --> 01:28:57.819
Yeah.

01:28:57.979 --> 01:29:00.014
I, I would tell I, same thing.

01:29:00.014 --> 01:29:03.764
I would tell my clients, I would
tell any lawyer, any young lawyer,

01:29:03.944 --> 01:29:08.264
if you don't get nervous or if you're
not nervous when we're walking into

01:29:08.264 --> 01:29:10.789
the courtroom, I'm really concerned.

01:29:12.854 --> 01:29:13.364
Okay.

01:29:13.904 --> 01:29:16.664
That's, that's an instance where anxiety.

01:29:17.084 --> 01:29:19.424
Is probably helpful.

01:29:19.994 --> 01:29:20.444
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:29:20.574 --> 01:29:23.214
Eric Robertson: Now you don't
wanna be so anxi anxious that

01:29:23.214 --> 01:29:24.744
you can't answer a question.

01:29:25.114 --> 01:29:27.334
Or you can't as a lawyer,
you can't ask a question.

01:29:27.334 --> 01:29:30.714
But I would do that to relax myself
before I would start a trial.

01:29:31.134 --> 01:29:33.294
Rupert Isaacson: This actually could
be quite healthy to people listening.

01:29:33.294 --> 01:29:36.024
What is healthy anxiety?

01:29:36.804 --> 01:29:39.144
We're generally told that
anxiety is unhealthy.

01:29:39.564 --> 01:29:40.164
What is healthy?

01:29:40.164 --> 01:29:40.704
Anxiety?

01:29:40.944 --> 01:29:41.604
Eric Robertson: Yeah.

01:29:41.604 --> 01:29:43.524
I, I don't believe that
all anxiety is unhealthy.

01:29:43.824 --> 01:29:48.804
An look we evolved with anxiety.

01:29:48.809 --> 01:29:49.009
Mm-hmm.

01:29:49.089 --> 01:29:51.354
And anxiety serves a purpose.

01:29:51.414 --> 01:29:51.534
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:29:51.784 --> 01:29:57.754
Eric Robertson: Using your metaphor
of hunter gatherers out on the,

01:29:59.794 --> 01:30:00.694
on the field.

01:30:01.144 --> 01:30:06.154
If you're anxious, you're hyper
aware of what's going on around you.

01:30:06.964 --> 01:30:09.364
And there's a protective aspect to that.

01:30:09.734 --> 01:30:13.334
If, if you're in a bad situation
and you're anxious and there's,

01:30:13.769 --> 01:30:17.504
you're, you're hyper aware of what's
happening, if you are faced with an

01:30:17.504 --> 01:30:23.084
emergency, you're not gonna get stuck
in some fight, flight or freeze mode.

01:30:23.084 --> 01:30:25.694
You're gonna be able to think about
how I'm gonna get out of that.

01:30:26.264 --> 01:30:26.564
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:30:28.004 --> 01:30:31.214
So yeah, healthy, healthy
anxiety allows strategizing,

01:30:31.664 --> 01:30:32.024
Eric Robertson: right?

01:30:32.414 --> 01:30:36.164
Rupert Isaacson: But if you have unhealthy
anxiety, something like this, emdr,

01:30:36.164 --> 01:30:36.914
Eric Robertson: it overwhelms you.

01:30:36.914 --> 01:30:39.494
It overwhelms you, and you
can't think, and you can't

01:30:39.614 --> 01:30:41.564
figure out what you need to do.

01:30:42.614 --> 01:30:43.394
Rupert Isaacson: It is interesting.

01:30:43.394 --> 01:30:49.184
I was going through a really
anxious period and I know someone

01:30:49.184 --> 01:30:51.554
who does EMDR and I said, hit me.

01:30:52.364 --> 01:30:53.474
Let's see if this works.

01:30:53.744 --> 01:30:56.624
Which was a slightly different, you,
you know, it's a slightly different

01:30:56.624 --> 01:31:01.864
one where you are doing bilateral
stuff with your eyes and, and, it

01:31:01.864 --> 01:31:06.394
took my anxiety about this particular
thing from a 10 to a two in about

01:31:09.094 --> 01:31:09.904
10 minutes.

01:31:11.584 --> 01:31:11.734
Eric Robertson: Yeah.

01:31:11.734 --> 01:31:14.464
Rupert Isaacson: And I was quite shocked
at the simplicity of it actually.

01:31:15.034 --> 01:31:15.124
Eric Robertson: Yeah.

01:31:15.124 --> 01:31:16.384
Rupert Isaacson: And reassured,

01:31:19.084 --> 01:31:23.314
I know that you need to wrap this up
shortly, that you actually, it's the

01:31:23.314 --> 01:31:26.044
middle of your working day and you have
a client that you need to go and see.

01:31:26.734 --> 01:31:35.434
Do you have any closing advice for
men, young or old or fathers or, and

01:31:35.554 --> 01:31:39.214
people, men going through conflict,
whether it's internal or external?

01:31:39.994 --> 01:31:40.264
Eric Robertson: Yeah.

01:31:41.764 --> 01:31:46.024
Rupert Isaacson: Leave us
with your elder advice.

01:31:47.644 --> 01:31:48.184
What to do.

01:31:48.479 --> 01:31:48.769
Eric Robertson: What

01:31:48.769 --> 01:31:48.969
Rupert Isaacson: to do.

01:31:48.974 --> 01:31:48.994
Well,

01:31:49.114 --> 01:31:54.254
Eric Robertson: I would say this when we
look at the things that actually help men.

01:31:55.204 --> 01:32:00.094
There are things like learning
how to normalize emotions without

01:32:00.094 --> 01:32:03.484
forcing verbal vulnerability.

01:32:03.604 --> 01:32:05.344
That's, that's difficult for a lot of men.

01:32:05.884 --> 01:32:07.324
Rupert Isaacson: How does
one tread that line though?

01:32:07.324 --> 01:32:10.444
Because how do you not become
emotionally vulnerable when you

01:32:11.284 --> 01:32:15.424
Eric Robertson: Well, that they may
at some point, but when you're working

01:32:15.424 --> 01:32:20.224
with men, your role is just to normalize
whatever emotions they're feeling.

01:32:20.764 --> 01:32:20.944
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:32:21.094 --> 01:32:24.334
Eric Robertson: And with, without
trying to force them into, I see

01:32:24.394 --> 01:32:32.354
vulnerable position focus on function
goals and relief rather than feelings

01:32:32.354 --> 01:32:37.484
talk initially when you're with them,
as you, as you pointed out, sometimes

01:32:37.484 --> 01:32:39.044
talk therapy just doesn't work.

01:32:39.374 --> 01:32:39.734
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:32:39.884 --> 01:32:43.844
And it's interesting too, I think as a
bloke, I definitely like to be focused

01:32:43.844 --> 01:32:46.484
on solutions and strategizing solutions.

01:32:46.964 --> 01:32:47.884
Eric Robertson: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:32:48.704 --> 01:32:50.504
Allow parallel processing.

01:32:50.504 --> 01:32:52.304
This is the talking while doing.

01:32:53.039 --> 01:32:54.089
That we talked about.

01:32:54.179 --> 01:32:55.589
I think that's real important.

01:32:56.129 --> 01:32:59.459
Reduce the shame by validating effort.

01:32:59.819 --> 01:33:03.719
Not the weakness, by not
talking about the weakness, but

01:33:03.959 --> 01:33:05.849
validating somebody's effort.

01:33:05.849 --> 01:33:08.159
And gosh, you showed up today.

01:33:08.159 --> 01:33:12.909
I'm, I'm really glad to see you
good thing, that sort of thing.

01:33:13.179 --> 01:33:20.149
And then frame help as skill building,
not ne necessarily pathology.

01:33:20.959 --> 01:33:21.469
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:33:21.619 --> 01:33:24.229
Eric Robertson: You're
here to learn how to cope.

01:33:24.739 --> 01:33:25.849
I want to help you.

01:33:25.939 --> 01:33:32.509
I want to give you the skills that you
can use to help you cope with that, with

01:33:32.509 --> 01:33:36.829
this situation, rather than saying, well,
you're, you're depressed and we need to

01:33:36.829 --> 01:33:38.479
figure out how to treat the depression.

01:33:40.069 --> 01:33:40.309
Rupert Isaacson: Okay?

01:33:43.039 --> 01:33:43.399
Yeah.

01:33:44.449 --> 01:33:45.799
All of those resonate with me.

01:33:45.919 --> 01:33:46.279
Eric Robertson: Yeah.

01:33:46.519 --> 01:33:49.549
Men don't need less empathy.

01:33:49.879 --> 01:33:53.329
They often need empathy
delivered differently.

01:33:54.499 --> 01:33:54.739
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

01:33:56.719 --> 01:33:57.139
Yeah.

01:33:57.409 --> 01:33:58.579
I guess we're all a bit autistic.

01:33:59.594 --> 01:33:59.884
Yeah.

01:33:59.889 --> 01:34:00.789
We learn differently.

01:34:00.879 --> 01:34:01.719
It's so true.

01:34:02.379 --> 01:34:07.419
And because even though Yeah,
psychotherapy, that whole field started

01:34:07.419 --> 01:34:13.419
with men, Freud young, as you say,
it's become a largely female dominated

01:34:13.419 --> 01:34:20.289
field and perhaps the approaches
need to be modified for our gender.

01:34:20.289 --> 01:34:21.249
Yeah, yeah.

01:34:21.849 --> 01:34:22.149
Eric Robertson: Yeah.

01:34:22.869 --> 01:34:23.949
So work in progress.

01:34:24.369 --> 01:34:25.119
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

01:34:25.599 --> 01:34:29.259
Well, I look forward to
seeing how it develops.

01:34:30.759 --> 01:34:31.899
Eric, thank you posted so much.

01:34:31.899 --> 01:34:32.319
This has been

01:34:32.319 --> 01:34:32.709
Eric Robertson: You bet,

01:34:33.099 --> 01:34:34.119
Rupert Isaacson: extremely insightful.

01:34:34.749 --> 01:34:35.739
Eric Robertson: Thank you for having me.

01:34:36.279 --> 01:34:37.149
Rupert Isaacson: My pleasure.

01:34:37.779 --> 01:34:39.279
I shall see you in Austin, Texas.

01:34:39.684 --> 01:34:41.154
Eric Robertson: I'll see
you in April and Austin.

01:34:41.424 --> 01:34:43.164
Rupert Isaacson: Now, before
you go, just the plugs.

01:34:43.164 --> 01:34:44.274
How do people contact you?

01:34:44.274 --> 01:34:45.114
How do they find you?

01:34:45.994 --> 01:34:50.494
Eric Robertson: Www.robertsonct.com.

01:34:51.064 --> 01:34:51.934
It's my website.

01:34:52.294 --> 01:34:54.364
Rupert Isaacson: Robertson ct.com?

01:34:54.844 --> 01:34:57.604
Eric Robertson: Yes, as in
Robertson Counseling and therapy.

01:34:57.934 --> 01:34:58.354
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:34:58.744 --> 01:35:02.104
And if people want to reach out for
you for, as a client, but also for

01:35:02.104 --> 01:35:05.224
mentorship, all of that stuff, do
you offer trainings of any kind?

01:35:05.224 --> 01:35:06.304
Do you offer workshops?

01:35:07.244 --> 01:35:10.884
Eric Robertson: I don't, but I'm
actually with encouragement from

01:35:11.784 --> 01:35:15.904
somebody that I've been talking with
over the last couple of months thinking

01:35:15.904 --> 01:35:20.194
about writing a book on divorce,
coaching oriented both towards clients

01:35:20.194 --> 01:35:22.844
and towards people that wanna do it.

01:35:24.404 --> 01:35:26.294
Rupert Isaacson: I would
encourage you to write that book.

01:35:26.324 --> 01:35:28.664
Yeah, absolutely.

01:35:28.664 --> 01:35:29.024
I would,

01:35:31.064 --> 01:35:34.334
I would also encourage you to, to create
some workshops and retreats around this,

01:35:35.294 --> 01:35:35.684
Eric Robertson: yeah,

01:35:35.864 --> 01:35:38.294
Rupert Isaacson: I think there's
a, a massive need and I think that

01:35:38.294 --> 01:35:44.234
the outcomes for families and the
kids involved in all of that could

01:35:44.234 --> 01:35:47.504
be very positively impacted by

01:35:47.744 --> 01:35:47.894
Eric Robertson: Yeah.

01:35:47.924 --> 01:35:48.524
Rupert Isaacson: What you're doing.

01:35:49.754 --> 01:35:50.144
So thank

01:35:50.144 --> 01:35:50.204
Eric Robertson: you.

01:35:50.204 --> 01:35:52.154
Well, perhaps I'll start a podcast.

01:35:52.484 --> 01:35:54.884
Rupert Isaacson: Hey, great idea.

01:35:55.304 --> 01:35:55.574
Get it

01:35:55.574 --> 01:35:55.994
Eric Robertson: out.

01:35:55.994 --> 01:35:56.004
Alright.

01:35:56.504 --> 01:35:57.284
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, my friend.

01:35:58.004 --> 01:35:58.304
Eric Robertson: Thank you,

01:35:58.309 --> 01:35:58.429
Rupert Isaacson: Ruper.

01:35:58.429 --> 01:35:59.029
I'll see you soon.

01:35:59.259 --> 01:35:59.749
Bye-Bye.

01:35:59.749 --> 01:36:00.029
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01:36:00.255 --> 01:36:03.635
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