Trey: Hello, and welcome back to another episode of MCU Need to Know, a podcast
dedicated to the Marvel Cinematic Universe, and everything you need to know.
I am Trey!
Jude: I'm Jude, how are you doing Trey?
Trey: I am so freaking excited.
We're finally getting to Dr.
Strange after teasing it for a few weeks.
Jude: I was wondering if we were going to find a way not to record this.
Trey: I, I felt that too, but I'm glad we are
Jude: like, it was something, you know, I haven't knock on wood right here.
Here's a little knock, uh, just to prevent like either
one of our houses losing power.
Oh,
I knocked on the wood.
So I just say it, it feels like something
Trey: it's funny.
Like every time we ever set a plan on what we're going to
do on the podcast life laughs.
He always had to pivot at the last minute, but uh, I, uh, I'm having to be doing this
and more importantly, I'm happy to have
Jude: you back.
You know what it was good to be back.
I apologize for missing last week.
Um, I don't mind sharing this, you know, in fact, I didn't go to work today.
Well, the last Friday we went to record and right as we're getting started
recording, I just had this massive headache and I ended up having to go to
a care now, urgent care or see, you know, some kind of a quick thing like that.
Um, cause we've been tracking my blood pressure and it's not been good, uh,
just to put it that way and it just had a massive headache and I just, I had to go.
Um, and, and you know, it's weird.
I feel bad missing work today.
Cause it was just like, I just couldn't sleep last night.
Um, because I had such a bad headache, you know, in my oldest was like, I get
headaches and you make me go to school and I'm like, look, I've gone to a
school or slash work every day with the.
And I just couldn't today, like until this blood pressure gets under control,
like I just have this perpetual like headache and, um, I, I say perpetual,
like, I don't have one right.
This moment.
Uh, but also taking Tylenol before we started recording.
And so, yeah.
So I apologize about missing a loved listening, cause I always excited
to be on that end when it does happen, uh, to get to hear what the
pods going to be like that knowing.
So, yeah.
Yeah.
Trey: I'm glad to hear, you know, you are taking time to
take care of yourself and a.
And again, like I said, I'm glad to hear you back.
Cause I mean, being in that moment, it was like, oh, this went from like, we're going
to record to like, oh no, go get that taken care of this doesn't matter anymore.
Yeah.
Jude: Like we were set up and it was just like, I can't do this.
Like, oh.
And, and you know, what else is funny is I've been going around and
I know this isn't something to brag about, but I'm going around bragging
about blood pressure medicine.
The first day I took it, I would go, I go, I go up to my, to my friends who
were like my age, a little bit older.
And I was like, dude, in stages of getting old, I just leveled up.
I'm on blood pressure medicine now.
And they're all like welcome to the club.
I was like, I know, right.
Oh, like give me another 10 to 15 years.
And I'm going to go from like having that little plastic thing where Monday
through Friday for my pills and going from having one to both an am and a PM.
Right.
So I have, I have that next level to look forward to.
So.
That
Trey: is, that is really funny, especially cause I remember you
like haunting me when I turned 30.
You're like, all right, just wait.
You're going to start to feel it.
You're not gonna be able to stay up as late as you used to, you
know, whenever you drink, you're going to feel it a lot harder.
The next day I turned 30, my knee exploded.
I turned 31 and now I can't see anymore.
And that needs class.
Jude: I tell you what my 40th birthday went to the ER and had a
two night, three day hospital stay.
Then I had to go back in March for sure.
Major surgery.
Like I immediately started falling apart.
Um, and thirties and especially mid thirties is that time when like, You start
waking up in the morning, was that hung over feeling without actually drinking.
You just stayed up too late.
So it happens to all of us at some point.
Trey: Well, it started to sound like we need a doctor.
So
Jude: a Hey right.
I go see my doctor.
Trey: Maybe one of the mystical arts can be the one we're looking for.
So
Jude: go find the ancient one,
Trey: give you download this episode, then, you know, we're
going to be discussing Dr.
Strange from 2016.
So the way we're going to do this is we're going to break this down into a
three act structure and that'll give us the opportunity to bounce around while
sticking within a certain section of the movie as we give our retrospective review.
So starting with this first act, uh, we're going to be starting from the beginning
of the movie all the way through Dr.
Strange training at karma Taj.
So starting with.
Jude.
Where do you want to start with act one?
I want
Jude: to start with the car wreck.
Okay.
Um, and the only reason why is that?
I remember when I first saw this, like in the theater and then getting
out, uh, well going in, I thought, okay, this is going to be difficult.
Uh, origin story set up of like, he's a surgeon.
He can't do that anymore.
Cause of the damage to his hands, you know?
And like, how do you get people to relate to that?
You know, that, that puts them on that journey.
You know, like, like stereotypically, uncle Ben and Martha.
It's like you lost a parent and we can kinda, even if you haven't lost a parent,
yet you can relate to like the grief that puts you down this road, you know?
And here it's like, you, you just can't use your hands.
Like he used to let you, you know what I mean?
Um,
Trey: it's not even that so much as like how much of a jerky was it wasn't
even that he couldn't use his hands.
You can find sympathy.
There is that even after being humbled, he was still a complete
Jude: jerk.
Right.
And, and so in that sense, like I remember leaving the theater and
I still think that's what I do.
These rewatch is just how well they did the origin story, like and how
well they were able to make that work.
Um, and I, I think that's attribute to, you know, Scott Derrickson as
a director and Benedict Cumberbatch as an actor to like, make that work.
Trey: Yeah.
I think I texted him.
After I had finished my watch, where I was just like, I think this
first act is perfect and I don't, I didn't think he responded to it.
So like, I think you were waiting for it here on the podcast, but man,
I, I cannot I'm right behind you.
It is.
It is so good.
It's so well done.
Uh, to speak a little bit more about this scene in particular
that you're starting with.
I remember when we did our vicarious viewing with Katie
Peters, for those who don't know, that was our first guest episode.
And I think that was something she brought up was just how difficult it
was to get behind a character like this, because it is something that they
really hammer home, but it wasn't until sitting down to write notes that it's,
I was able to kind of put into words.
It's not that it's hard to feel sorry for his actions because he
deserves, well, maybe not the car wreck, but he deserves like the.
Vitriol.
He gets from other people as he's looking for help after the fact.
But what you actually feel sorry for is that he can't see past himself.
Like there's, there's, there's this pity for him in a way that he is
his own problem and he can't even see it because of the pedestal.
He's put himself on,
Jude: you get the ego problem, okay.
In such a jerk and they sell it well, but you also get that
identity of, well, put it this way.
There's not a strong sense of who he is outside of being this surgeon.
Right.
Like if I don't have this, who am I is?
And so many of us, you know, daily lives, if you stop and think about that question,
what is, who am I, what does it mean to be me and what makes up that identity?
And if you're so wrapped up into identity is your job or insert whatever it is.
And you see this with athletes, when they struggle over tiring, like I spent so much
of my life being a ballplayer, whatever that is, what does that mean for me now?
And what do I do once I'm done?
And it makes it hard for them to walk away.
And so I think that's another part of it, right?
Like that self-absorbed and ego is also the problem, you know, a problem in that.
He can only be him if he's able to do this job and doesn't
know how to do anything else.
Um, which is, that's a huge
Trey: problem.
So I'm going to respond to that and use that to transition into another
section that I want to talk about.
But speaking of what you said, like it mean he is defined by his
work, like so much of what he does.
Like I think I finally put it into words at the beginning.
He is somebody who does good things for the wrong reasons.
Like he is a brilliant surgeon, he saves lives, but the way
that he goes about doing it.
Uh, you have that scene right before the car wreck, where he is being given
potential candidates for surgery.
And he's being as cows is like, oh no, I don't want to ruin my perfect record.
Like, oh, you want me to have them die on the table?
Like they were just accolades waiting to happen for them.
Um, another thing that, that stood out to me in this watch is at the beginning,
when he does save that life of Christine's patient, there's a very brief moment
where he goes to meet with the family.
And they're all very thankful about the success of the surgery.
And one of the family members goes to hug Christine and she embraces it and
another one goes to hug strange, and he kind of gives like the side hug.
So like even internally, he cannot accept the, the care of others
because that's not what it is for him.
It's more about the, the ego, like you said, I guess that's
what that's, where I'll keep that.
Jude: And when you gotta say he only did it as well, just to show up.
Yes,
Trey: 100%.
It's so that's, that's kind of going back to where I wanted to transition.
It's just like how, cause you said they don't really set anything up for strange
outside of how he is with work, man.
It is brilliant the way they have them incredibly relaxed while in
such a tense situation situation where he's operating on that patient.
And he's sitting there bopping along to the song, doing trivia he's dancing
for, it's just a very slow motion back and forth, and it shows the kind
of person he is that he's incredibly skilled and confident in these intense
situations, which, uh, I, I really appreciated about that opening.
Yeah.
And it gave you a sense of, to like, I mean, he's a very smart person like this,
just having all that trivia on hand and being able to get into the minutia of
the details was, was really entertaining.
I mean, he knew about
Jude: the frugal horn.
Yeah.
Oh, ma'am.
Trey: And, you know, you, you already mentioned the hands.
I think one of the things that worked so well about this first act is the hands
really are its own little micro story within the, within the movie itself.
But specifically in that first part of the movie, because we see the first
opening shot is well, not the first opening shot because we have that section
with, uh, Cassius and the ancient one.
But once we transitioned over to strange, it's a focus shot of him just sterilizing
his hands and cleaning and just showing like the beginning of his act.
And by the time we get towards the end, as he's really starting
to bark on this journey, we get another shot of him trying to shave.
And his hands are just shaking because he can no longer do the everyday tasks.
So it is a good anchor visually for what they're doing, uh, with the narrative.
Jude: Well, and I'd say that scene where he's trying to run.
And you just trying to write his name over and over again and couldn't do it.
Yes.
Well, let's take it a step further, you know, not to get out of this
act, but if you think about the hands as its own story, and you
think about what he does as Dr.
Strange throughout the movie, so much of what he does requires his hands, the
way he holds his fingers, you know, to open the little portal, the way he held
his fingers to get the to open up, it's all comes out of his hands, you know?
So it's like, he's getting this use of hands back throughout here.
So, so I like that you put it in, like they have their own little narrative, so
Trey: I totally get what you mean about how he's using his hands in a way that is.
His interpretation of the mystical arts, but I do want to make sure we are clear.
We understand that, you know, the ancient one makes that point about how it's
not in the hands when she demonstrates how master Famir is able to control
the magic while having a missing hand.
But I know, I know what you're saying is it means to his
story that they're telling.
Jude: Right.
Right.
But I think, I mean, I want to add to that and say, it just shows
so much of this movie is in this mystical and it shows how much Steven
is into this physicality, right?
Like, oh, this mumbo jumbo and the mystical stuff and my hands, I work with
my hands and how important that is to him.
I think having Amir not have a hand is also a good reinforcement of.
There is something beyond the physical that's that's taking place,
Trey: you know, while we're still kind of here at this beginning, part of the
movie, I do want to take some time to highlight that conversation that strange
and Christine have, as they're discussing the, uh, the, the strange policy
where she no longer dates coworkers.
Uh, I like the quick insight that we get into their personalities, because
we've already clearly established how egotistical and vein Stranges, but
the plea that, that Christine gives to like, Hey, you know, why don't
you come down and work in the ER with me and, you know, help save lives.
And strangers just immediately like put off by the idea of doing that
because in his mind, the work that he's doing can save a thousand lives,
but it, it, it comes off to Christine is like, oh, you're just doing it
for the vanity project kind of thing.
So you can see, see where both their, their philosophies is
just in that conversation.
And she, and just to put a point on it, she has that awesome line
where it really gives us the, the compass for where we're going to go.
Or she goes, Steven, everything is about
Jude: you.
Well, and that's, and that's what I was always going to say is like for
Christine is definitely, I think Christine would agree you're saving lives and.
It's not immediate in front of you.
It is down the line, right?
Cause you're doing research and experimental stuff that maybe
one day is no longer experimental fine, but that's about.
You know, and Christine is very person oriented.
I'm doing this to help others.
Um, and strangers, clearly I'm helping myself,
Trey: which I'm going to, I'm going to jump ahead because still within
this act, but man, it is such great dramatic irony that after the car wreck
and strange wakes up in the hospital and he sees his hands kind of posted
up on that, that all that metal wire and post-surgery and the stitches.
And he's just looking at it and dismay and asking, what did you do?
And Christine was just trying to reassure him that like, nobody could do better.
And he goes, I could, it's so beautifully tragic that the one person that could
help him is himself, but that's the, he can't physically, and that's an
stranger's entire art for this movie.
And I love that.
They took the time to set that up.
Jude: I'm going to, I'm going to use this and, and let me know if it doesn't
make sense in terms of analogy wise.
So like one of the classes I teach is, is very much, I mean, it's
about relationships and, and stuff.
And, and I know one of the things I ended up bringing up and even
for me being married, one of the things we ended up talking about is
that trust between people, right?
You and I, as a partnership on this podcast, right.
Um, or for my wife and I, and the trust we have in each other.
And, you know, I bring up with the students and I get into this.
Like, if something happens to me, whether it's by accident or let's
say I'm having a surgery, it didn't happen on this most recent surgery.
You know, that I mentioned earlier about falling apart,
but it, but it could, right.
Like something unexpected happens and the doctor has to go ask while I'm under.
Right.
And I trust and have a confidence that my wife is going to do and make
the best decision for me and for us.
Right.
And, and vice versa.
And so what I awake, even if it's probably, let's just say for argument's
sake, like it's not something I actually would have chosen.
I would have went the other.
Right.
I'm not going to be mad because that's part of that relationship of our marriage
of saying I'm putting my, my life in your hands willingly, and I'm going to trust
that you are doing what's best for me.
Right.
And strange doesn't, you know, and, and still like with the doctor, like I'm
under, I'm trusting you to do what's best for me and your expertise, you know?
And like strange is incapable of that.
Whether it's him and Christine as a relationship or just him as a
patient and the UN and another doctor.
And that's one of the things I just, I find fascinating about strange is because
there's so many times in life in general, whether it's a relationship that you
actually have, or just a relationship that you come across momentarily.
Where it's like, you have to assume Goodwill on somebody or not on
somebody, but from somebody that they're making the best choices
that they're capable of making and, and realize you're okay with that.
Cause.
It's out of your hands.
Um, and I don't mean that as a pond or just, you know, and, and, and
strange is completely incapable of
Trey: man.
I love that.
Cause I mean, like I said, I was already focusing on the hands and the use of
the story, but I, I didn't even put it in that, like putting your trust in
somebody else's hands kind of situation like that, but yeah, you're right.
Like that is something that strange, completely lacks and it all stems
from that egotistical view that he has, because skip to that scene
where he's in rehab and he refers to the person that's working with them
as like, alright, bachelor degree.
I was like my gut.
Like he cannot see beyond the comparison of himself to others.
Like that is the only value he has for somebody that is not him.
And so it is torture.
Um, and again, great dramatic irony that like, he thinks he could have done
it, but he, he physically could not.
Um, and I liked the way you have outlined that.
Yeah, and I, and I think it works hand in hand, that is definitely an intended pun.
It works hand in hand with the on-ramping of the mystical nature of this film,
because we spend so much time with this person, whether you relate to
stranger, not which I can't imagine.
You can at least be sympathetic to strange in this, uh, beginning act.
Uh, the fact that he's so grounded in skepticism is what's
going to pave the way for us to.
Get to the mystic arts.
So once we get into the later acts of this movie are later time of this movie,
I should say, but I wanted to bounce off what you were saying about that.
The, was it, what did you say, kindness?
What was, what was the word she used earlier?
It slipped my mind of others.
Jude: Uh, oh, assume Goodwill on their part.
Uh,
Trey: Goodwill.
Yeah, Goodwill.
So I want to switch to that scene with Pangborn, who I think I have created
a new found level of appreciation during this session of note-taking
Pangborn, I think is such a crucial moment in this movie because not
only is the framing of the shot.
Good, where after strange has been humbled and is coming to.
A complete stranger on his part for help.
You see him as he's behind the fence, almost in like this cage,
like structure, and he's asking this guy for help, like for
clarification of how he can get better.
And it is not until Pangborn shows empathy because he has no onus to
give any sort of time of data strange.
But because he takes the time to say like, this is what I did.
This is how it can work.
Only then is strange, able to step outside from the office station of
the gates and have a face-to-face communication with Pangborn.
And like I said, penguin didn't have to do that, but because he took the time to show
that empathy and kindness, that is what sets strange on his path towards good.
And I, I loved it.
It was just so visually narratively rich.
Jude: Oh yeah.
I'm just going to add to it on there.
It's like even when a stranger behind the fence, it's all focused on
strange and the fence, like you can't, there's nothing going on in the back.
So he is really boxed in, whereas you can still see behind Pangborn, like he's on
the outside of that because you still see them playing basketball in the background.
So there's like life in the frame behind Pangborn.
So it, it really gives that feeling of like, like you said,
strangers in this cage, you know, cause there's nothing going on.
It's just him.
Uh, yeah.
So you're right.
It was, that was fantastic.
Uh, blocking and framing and, and, and use of environment to, to, to.
Create that, that feeling and push the
Trey: well you're making me even realize too, like you framed it as there's life
in the background with pink board side, that life has calling back to them.
They're like, Hey, come on, get back to the game.
And he is taking time out of his day to show kindness to a strange, so,
uh, kudos to Benjamin Bratt because I really hope we see some of him in
multi-verse of madness, because I think he's a much more important character
than I originally gave him credit for.
Jude: Oh yeah.
Yeah.
And he's a big enough name that he.
You bring him back at some point, somehow it would be,
Trey: it would be an a, I don't want to say a let down of a cliffhanger,
but man, that would be interesting.
If the post credit scene features so much of him having his magic
taken away, we never see him again.
Right.
Given what we know of multi-verse I don't know where
Jude: you fit them in.
I don't, I don't know.
I don't know the Illuminati, maybe.
Trey: So I do want to say this before we exit the Pangborn section.
You know, I I've, I can't remember when I brought this up, but I talked
about in the books on storytelling that I've read, there's this idea that you
differentiate between what the mind wants, which is kind of the external goal
of a main character and what they think they're searching for versus what the
heart wants, which is what they actually need to complete their story circle and
become a better person on the other side.
And so what I love about Pangborn here is Pang Moore talks about going to
karma Taj and learning the magic that it takes to be able to walk again.
And he even admits, I knew there was more to learn, but I was
satisfied on my journey, whereas.
We know this is the start of strangers journey with his mind once is the
ability to use his hands again.
But what we are finding out in this moment, which I think we won't know
until the end, but what is great about Pangborn is that laying the groundwork of
knowing there's more to be learned, like there's vast knowledge in the multi-verse
that that's what strange actually needs to learn on the inside is that
responsibility of knowledge that he has not shown at the beginning of this movie.
So even though strange things seasoned barking on fixing his hands, he's really
on that path towards being humbled by the
Jude: multi-verse.
Yeah.
That's that's really well put.
Thanks.
Do you mind if I shift gears for a second?
Yeah, go ahead.
Shift away.
You mentioned something about this on-ramp and I forgot it.
I know you said on ramp and I forget now it escapes me what
the context contextual, the, the
Trey: unwrapping of the fantastical by using skepticism.
Jude: We talked about this when Katie was on this movie is a good
feels like, and I think it is a good on-ramp to the MCU, just in general,
if you've never seen anything.
And I do like the way they started by giving you a taste of what's
the Cub and that initial fight.
So they kind of tease like, what's, you're going to see on a small scale with the
buildings and stuff, and you're just like, oh man, this is going to be wild.
And so like, and what made me think of it as using the word on-ramp cause it
is, you know, I think, I, I think even in that episode, uh, you know, we, maybe
we should put a link in the show notes to, to that episode, if anybody wants to
go back and see that or listen to that.
Um, cause Katie Peters, her whole thing is, you know, going and watching movies.
She's never seen before and just giving her impressions.
Um, and she came on with us to, to talk about Dr.
Strange.
And she mentioned like, yeah, this would be a good on-ramp to
the MCU for someone that who's never seen any MCU movie before.
Um,
Trey: so yeah, it's an, I listened to the director's commentary for this one
with Scott Derrickson and he talked about something that I've never thought
about before, but it's kind of made me appreciate what this movie does.
He said whenever they were like doing test screenings, he came to realize
audiences want to learn about the.
But there's only so much you can take within a movie before you're like,
all right, you're, overexplaining it.
And so I just want to highlight what you're saying about how they tease that
out at the beginning of like, wow, this is what's to come, but then they shift
gears and it is a drama for like the first 40 minutes, maybe an hour of this movie.
It is a pure drama.
Uh, and I think that leads into one of my favorite scenes, maybe in the MCU.
And I, I got to walk through this carefully because it feels weird to like,
say, Hey, this scene were strangers, just verbally abusing somebody is one
of my favorite scenes, but that scene where him and Christine are fighting.
Um, I am a star.
For somebody who is talking down, like just out of pure visceral, anger and hurt.
And in their mind, they think they're really, you know, showing
the other person how wrong they are.
But in reality, what you're seeing is how broken they are.
And I think the reflection of that is through Christine, who has
that strength to walk away from that moment, because it's hard.
Like she clearly cares about strange.
She wants to help them.
And she's gotten to this point where she's like, no, And that takes incredible
strength and it shows how small of a person strange is and all that is
emphasized by the, the excellent acting on Rachel McAdams and Benedict Cumberbatch.
But, uh, yeah, that, uh, that entire scene just hits hard every time.
Oh, I
Jude: love her, her first line.
It wasn't like a, she didn't yell back.
So there was no defending myself.
It was just straight up.
Okay.
Now's the part you apologize.
And this is the part where you leave, you know, it was just like, I'm not just
like, I'm not accepting it, you know?
Um, but even there, when strange said, no, this is the part where you leave
or, you know, something to that effect.
You still get the feeling that, or at least I do that.
Christine left on her own terms.
Not because strange setup.
Like it was still, no, this is my choice.
I'm walking away from you.
Um, and so I love how that, that scene played out and in that way, you know?
Well, and it goes to show again, someone who in Christine has that strong ego,
that strong sense of self, or when I say strong ego, let's make sure I'm clear.
So think, think ego sense of self, and you can have an overinflated or
big ego, which is actually not a good sense of self, like strange has, right?
Because what ends up happening is you have this over-inflated or big ego.
So the foundation of that ego sense of self is not solid.
And once we see what strange it's taken away and you're falling apart, whereas
when you have that strong, a strong ego, a good, strong sense of self.
When people treat you the way strange was you're able to look at it and be
like, okay, now you open your apology.
No, and this, and you're like, fine, I'm gone.
And it remains Christine's choice to walk away, you know?
And she had control it.
Did it hurt?
Yes.
Because there's that relationship that you clearly cares about strange, but it's one
of those things where you see, and again, to Rachel McAdams acting, it's like the
hurt is because I'm seeing my friend act this way and I can no longer be a part of.
It's not a hurt because of what you necessarily said to me.
So that's, I love it.
Trey: It goes back to what I was saying at the car wreck, the, the feeling sorry,
is not for what happens to strange.
It's the pity that he cannot see himself and what he's become, and
we achieve and highlights is like, you know, you always spent money as
quick as you got it, but now you're spending more than you can make.
And she's just trying to plead to him to like, you know, snap out
Jude: of this, right.
This is not medicine it's madness.
Trey: Oh yeah.
That, that is a wonderful way to put that.
I like that a lot.
So.
You know, we already talked about how he meets up with paying borne, which is what
sets him out on this track to Carmen Taj.
I think we can kind of shift gears here to that scene where he has the
meeting with the ancient one and kind of fumbles his way through sincerity
as he is guided through with Mordo.
And man, like, this is, this is what I was setting up about the on-ramp to the
fantastical, this scene alone, like in a vacuum, the scene where the ancient
one, like presses his forehead and shows him the vastness of the multi-verse.
And has that wonderful line of like, who are you strange in this vast multi-verse.
It is beautiful.
Like it is such a wonderful scene.
It's so imaginative and almost haunting in some aspects with
all the hands crawling around.
And it just really shows the scale at which this journey is about to take
us and all that works on a vacuum.
But why it really hits hard is because of, like I said, that, that
skepticism, and it ends with trainers being like, teach me, like he has
finally been won over kind of thing.
Jude: Well, and I also, I think when you think about this scene and
what you said, uh, Derrickson said in the, in the commentary, right?
So you it's like, we'll give you a little tease then we're just going to like turn
on the fire hose and just overwhelm you and you're coming out like strange of
like what, and then it was in that tea.
Yeah.
And so like, and you know, he's like teach me.
And then from there.
You're right.
They don't really explain the magic in any kind of detail,
strangest, slowly learning.
And you're learning with them, but it's not like a detail of like, oh,
this is where the magic comes from.
It's just, there's magic and other dimensions.
And you're learning how to use it.
And in not overexplaining the detail, there leaves some of that mystical
and that mystery there, that's still something that's to be discovered and
slowly being, you know, discoverable.
If that makes sense.
Um,
Trey: I was going to say 100% makes sense because that's one of the things that
Derrickson says in the commentary is by definition, magic is the unknowable
there's there's mystery to it.
There's a looseness to it.
And if you get too much into the details, it's not magic anymore.
It's science.
Jude: Yeah.
So one of the things like, so let me, let me put it this way.
One of the things, um, I'm taking a class right now and it's, it's no secret.
Like I put it on my Twitter.
I talk about, you know, my theology background and being Catholic.
Right.
Um, I'm taking a class right now apart of professional development, um,
online class on mystery and creation.
And one of these books I'm reading and I'm only bringing this up cause cause you,
cause I think Derek is right of like this whole science and you need this mystery.
Um, so bear with me, I guess it's feels like a tangent, but I'm kind
of in a circular way making a point.
Um, but like mystery in this, as I say this, I understand that
even among other Catholics, like this could be slightly debate.
So it's not like I'm giving like hardcore official that I
just make that clear as well.
But mystery in a Catholic sense is going to be con you know, we
can think of it in four ways.
Uh, concealment revelation of God's saving activity, uh, ritual participation
and connection to the sacrament and all that last one would mean would
be participation in like our, our, our recognizing the created world as
something that is discoverable and something that is to be an awe of.
Right.
But that first one that concealment the, you know, this, this
intentional hiding, you know, um, that makes, that makes a journey.
Now something about, um, discoverability, something that makes, um, well, I mean,
to use this analogy, it's like, once you play maybe a video game, or once
you do something and you know all about it, it's like, you know, or like you've
mentioned it, what captain America, civil war it's like, it takes something
to renew that energy of the first time.
Right.
Um, I like that, oh, this is cool moment.
And so that idea of concealment in terms of like, you know, God and mystery
creation and this Catholic sense is that the journey of discovering this
and because it's not all laid out, um, and this movie, I'm not saying
this movie is Catholic per se at any means, but it very much rides in that.
Right.
If like I would argue for as much as we've seen Dr.
Strange going into multi-verse Magnus, there's still not a lot of extra, like.
You know.
Um, and so in, in that sense, it's like, I just, I just love the, the way they
were able just to say, no, we're just going to trust the audience to buy in.
I don't have to.
And I think this is the first Marvel movie that's done this, you
know, cause you go back to Thor and it's like, oh man, it's not magic.
It's just science.
You haven't discovered yet.
And so it, so it plays off all this fantastical as like, oh, it's
scientifically like you can observe it and have an explanation is practical.
And this is the first one that's actually leaned into some
idea of mystical and mystery.
Um, and that's something I really loved and appreciated.
And
Trey: I want to circle back to what you were saying about how.
We spend the rest of the movie going on that journey with strange
as he's learning the, the arts, the mystic arts, like I know Dr.
Strange is not the first movie to pair an education system
as a way for both audience and protagonists to learn together.
But it's just so well done here within this use of the magic system.
And I love again, if it's almost, we talked about this whenever we
did the, what if episode of Dr.
Strange and I pointed out how for strange.
It's almost as if knowledge is a vice for him.
Like the idea of him being in that library of Cagliari Astro and having
infinite knowledge, like knowing who he is as a character and in
what he goes to do in that, what if episode he will be consumed by it.
So I, I love that line that the, I believe it is the H one she has where it's,
you know, you cannot beat a river into submission, you must surrender to it.
So it's almost like training strange, like, yes, there
is this river of knowledge.
It expands beyond your imagination, but it is not your job to control it.
It is your job to, like she said, surrender to it.
And so it's such a, it's such a great comparison to what his own journey is
because it's not until he's able to surrender to his like ego and let that go.
That he's able to control both his ordinary life and the fantastical life.
So I love the, the great job that they're doing with that.
They're marrying both the narrative of the story and the plot.
I think that's a distinction you made once.
Jude: Yeah.
Well, and if you, you know, if you think about what you just said about what
the bringing out that line about the river and surrendering to it and, uh,
and you can't beat it to submission, that's, there's a lot of Buddhist.
Um, you could probably say Hinduism as well, but definitely a lot of Buddhist.
I mean, cause they are so intertwined.
Um, and in, in terms of Lisa by basic framework that, but yeah,
there's a lot of Buddhist tendencies in there as well in terms of this.
You know, um, all life is suffering thinking of like
the four noble truths, right.
And the eightfold path.
And you get like, all life is suffering, um, desires as cause of suffering.
And you have to, to realize that, um, and a lot of where people end up getting some
things confused with Buddhism, especially on a surface level, is this idea of
like, oh, so I don't have to desire.
And it's like, no, no, no, no, no, no.
That's not what it wants.
They, they actually want this, what they call this middle way.
Um, which is, which is this middle ground and, and it's, and it's,
again, this is where you see the Hindu roots of its desire is okay.
But I am outgrowing the desire, right?
Like, cause I realize that this.
Isn't satisfying, right?
Like, like pleasure, desire for pleasure.
Isn't satisfying.
Okay.
So I want worldly desires, meaning like job and rich and all that stuff.
And you realize, okay, that's not satisfying, you know?
And so you move beyond that and eventually.
You know that it's not that a desire is bad, but you have a
healthy balance of desire, you know?
And, and as part of that in Buddhist terms, you know, reaching
enlightenment, um, or Nirvana, right.
And escaping, achieving, I think it's what Moshe are just
escaping seminars and life cycle.
Um, all this is on my mind because I'm doing an inter religious
dialogue class this semester, but
Trey: well, I'm happy you're lending the, uh, the knowledge here
Jude: to, you know, uh, go read Siddhartha by Herman Hesse
and anyways, a fantastic book.
But yeah, it's like, it's, uh, But you hear, you see all those tendencies
there and which I think is fascinating.
So there's one thing I, I do want to mention, cause I really
like, uh, what they did on this.
Um, and, and also to give me a little background.
So like I did go, you know, my bachelor's is in radio television, film inside.
Do you have this passion for media?
Um, and you know, professionally, I don't outside, I guess the pod, but
we're not getting paid right now.
So it's not professional.
I don't actually, you know, well, I love it.
And I think about it and critical and, and stuff.
But one of the, one of my professors, the very, the, the thing that they really are.
Yeah.
I think they would be appropriate right now.
Uh, they really emphasized was this, this and the intention of.
You know, people make choices of, and, and their, and their storytelling
and these use of stereotypes and how they can be helpful.
Like this kind of quick shorthand in the short, short form and
short form, meaning like a movie versus like multiple episodes.
Right.
And that being long form.
Um, but also because of that, it lends to subverting expectations of stereotypes.
Um, and I really liked how they did it multiple times in this movie,
but even right here was just, he went to the ancient one premiere
and he wasn't the ancient one.
Um, you know, and, and so like that there, I mean, that's just one example
in the whole we've been talking about, but there's other examples throughout
this movie where they were able to.
Show strange out of his element as this westerner in looking for
car montage in Katmandu and show this westerner out of his element.
Um, and, and having that Western bubble, so to speak, you know, and I, and I
thought this show did that really well.
Trey: Yeah.
And it plays to the level of character of strange, because mortal has that
wonderful line where I think it was after this remark, but strange
goes, Hey, doesn't that place look a little more calm, more Taji.
And mortal just kind of like looks at him.
And he looks at that place and he just, it's almost like
he fought a grin and scoffed.
And he was like, you know, I stood where you were once and showed the same level of
disrespect and it's, it is creating, like you said, that, that bubble around him,
that you get testicle illness and creating the, the path of growth he still has
because you have more to who is admitting, like he was there too at that point.
Jude: Yeah.
Now I, I do want to mention like outside of that's all within film,
but then in the film and outside of that, there's been conversations
about white washing and hiring, uh, Tilda Swinton to play the ancient one.
Um, first I, I think Tilda Swinton did a fantastic job.
She's a fantastic and what she does, um, you know, and there's that element
of the mindfulness of representation.
Um, and, and the problem we've had, um, you know, and so I, you can't bring up
the use of subverting stereotypes and ignorance, and I don't, at least, I don't
think, and then kind of ignore this.
I do want to mention that.
Um, but in terms of just like watching the movie and getting submersed into
it, it, in terms of like strange as experience as an egotistical
outsider, The things they did.
You mentioned about karma Taji.
I mentioned this, but even the one where he's like, is this my mantra?
And he's like, oh, this is just the wifi password.
We're not savages, you know?
Um, and so it really, you know, makes him pun intended a stranger to this world.
My turn for ponds, buddy.
Yeah.
But he makes him an outsider or a stranger to this world.
Trey: Uh, one of the things I don't think we've set up so far in this
first act is the use of the watch.
And it goes on to be a very pivotal moment towards the end of the movie.
But we learned that that watch is a gift from Christine.
And so.
You speak so much about how it really, as your pun goes, puts him as this
stranger after he is finally surrendering to, to the, the river of his ego.
One of the last things we see him do is take that watch and set it aside.
So it's a, it's almost signaling.
He has fully given up the essence of his past the in trying to
embrace this new lifestyle and.
You know, I, I like that by the I'll just say it, this is kind of getting
to the end of the act of that.
We have broke it down, but you start to see where strange has gotten to
the point where he's confident enough to create portals and go and steal
books from the library out from Wong.
And it is so wonderful.
This is what I, this is the moment where I was like, man, this is a perfect
first act because if an act is a smaller story within your larger story, the
fact that he goes from this massive.
Injury that takes away his identity and then gets to the point where
he has mastered the mystic arts and now has the ability to heal himself.
But for whatever reason, he is still going for something more he has
mastered with the mind wanted, but he can still internally feel that
there's something that the heart needs.
And this is a wonderful time to start introducing conflict,
which is what this movie does.
Jude: I want to say one more thing about the watch.
Um, and then we'll leave a pin on it.
Right?
Which is, you said he, he sets it down.
Well, he fought to get it back.
That was what was stolen and it was a broken watch.
Right.
Um, you know, the shattered glass and, and, you know, because it clearly was
important to them, but also at the very beginning, you know, he's getting dressed
for his outing and you open it up and he has all these fancy watches that
he's choosing from, uh, When he does step in to do the surgery for Christine,
he, he asks, um, oh, what is it doctor?
Uh, Nick, right.
Nick west nicotine.
So yeah, he's standing there and he's like, Hey, Dr.
West, please cover your watch.
Right.
And it was complete silence and all you get is the ticking.
And he's like, uh, you know, and so there's this element of like, strange is
so in control or egotistical, strangest.
So in control of everything, um, even time, if that makes sense, right?
Like he's just him, you know?
Um, and, and nothing else exists.
Um, you know, so, so the idea there, like you were just mentioning,
he sets it down and side is part of that step of like growth.
Um, and then.
Let's put a pin on it until we get to the left.
Trey: Okay.
There's one last thing I'm going to highlight because it just occurred to me.
We haven't set it up.
Despite there, there will be more scenes with them, but we
really need to set it up here.
I love the meaning of Wong.
I mean, even, even just taking a moment to appreciate where he starts in this movie,
which is already a great start to where he ends up with what we see happening
in the multi-verse of man, his trailer.
He has been on such an awesome path as a character.
And I believe it's in this first act.
I love that moment where strangers trying to bond with them and he's
cracking jokes and he's like, man, I'm, I'm used to people laughing at
my jokes and Wong just so quickly.
Did they work for you in the streets?
Just walks away.
So yeah, long, long as I think I'm starting to appreciate how
much Wong is becoming one of my favorite characters in the MC.
Jude: Funny to an empty room.
Trey: Well, that's a secret.
We got to start paying people to come laugh.
Jude: So we mentioned in one episode about dropping things we want to leave
behind and, you know, I'm mentioning it now only for context of like, I'm
leaving the truck behind in the last year.
And we're finding are a new thing for the next year.
I feel like funny room is going to be that thing that come 20, 23.
It's like, okay, we're going to leave that and find something else.
Trey: We were going to beat something to death every year.
And the empty room was definitely
Jude: right.
And then it's just going to be like, okay, we'll leave it behind.
Oh, well, one last thing.
Why don't we move?
We can move on when you say.
Like the group texts we have with, uh, TK.
Um, first time that came out, she texted to that a hashtag funny to
Trey: watch that be the thing that gets going for us engaging.
Jude: Oh,
Trey: well, you know what, I, I think that's gonna put a ramp on the first
act and move us into the second one, uh, which this act is going to take us
from the ancient one, explaining the mere dimension all the way through her
demise as she falls through, uh, from the mirror dimension into the real world.
Uh, we're going to start with me this time and I'm actually going to skip ahead to.
The establishing conversation between and Dr.
Strange, because I think it's the next place to go.
Given how much work we've talked about that was put into
strange as characterization.
And I love the way they have paved as the road not taken for strange, I guess
you could say where he strange could so easily fall down the same path as Cassius.
And I like, I mean, they're not subtle about it because Cassius throws stranger's
line back at him, a tiny momentary specks within an indifferent universe.
So you can see the same kind of hurt that has that strange also bears.
So I love that they've paired these two together.
Jude: Well, it's like when we talk about what JB and villains.
You know, are they killing off their villains?
And I mean, at this point, if you're listening to this episode, this isn't a
spoiler about Cassius dying, but this is,
oh, this is a two-parter you only watched the first part.
Okay.
But like, this is one of those that as much as you're like, oh,
we gotta keep Madam Mickelson around and, you know, whatever.
And who knows when multi-verse, but this is one where he necessarily
has to die because he is that this is what strange could have been.
And for strange to fully overcome the egotistical side into how full growth that
shadow self, you know, that sky Sealy is, is representing necessarily to complete.
The story has to do.
You know, um, and again, I'm going to stop there.
Cause third act wise, the way they did it was actually a very clever, um,
you know, w with, with that in mind, it was very clever of how it ended.
So, but yes, because of that, because he leaves necessarily has to die
because it's, it's part of a strange,
Trey: you know, you're hearkening back to that episode, we did with JB.
And you talked about the, the shadow self, and excuse me, you excused, you
talked about the shadow self and, you know, I mentioned how I outlined kind
of three archetypes that I enjoyed.
Uh, I think we actually get to have those here in this movie.
I said, oftentimes the villain is the, the lesson not learned for the
protagonists, which I think is the case here with . And I love how that
becomes the external representation of strange, whereas the internal and
we haven't gotten too far into it yet, but I'll go ahead and just lay this
groundwork for when we do get to it.
But the internal problem, I like that.
They've kind of compared that with Dormamuu of that just all consuming
entity, which can almost make comparisons to the all-consuming appetite.
That strange has for knowledge.
So they're doing great work here with their antagonists.
But I think where it fails for Cassius is so much of what they've done here is
in service to strange, but they didn't give much service to the character
himself, which is partly because of time.
Um, but man, they were so close to having a villain.
I think I could have had as one of my top
Jude: five.
Yeah.
That's all I got.
I fully agree.
Trey: You know, I, I, I want to say one more thing before we move on from this
little Castiel he has pitstop so much of the crux of why he has gone down this path
towards awakening Dormamuu and bringing him to earth is because he discovers
that the ancient one had been lying to him and that she was tapping into the
dark arts to, uh, we don't know what at this point, but to, to LinkedIn her life.
And it is a fear of his, the fear of death and the want of immortality.
And what really sells this moment is that as Cassius is explaining this
to strange he's crying, like he is genuinely hurt that the trust that he
had put on the ancient one, uh, has turned out to be portrayed in his eyes.
And I like that, that paves away towards sympathy for him.
Jude: Well, we talked about earlier, Strange as ego, right.
And that motivation and the R the, the overinflated sense of self and
that motivation and, and losing it.
But what I love here is you see, I'm going to say the
complexity of being human, right.
And so Cassius, you get hints as to why he was there.
You don't ever actually outright know it, but he clearly feels betrayed.
Right.
And he goes down on this path because it's like that, that concealment, you
hid this from me and ancient ones doing that because that's, what's best for you.
Right.
Or in terms of the intention.
And then Cassius discovers it.
And now it goes down this path.
Right.
And then it's concealed or hidden from Mordo because of his personality.
Right?
Like this.
You know, don't mess with natural law.
Anyway, it's a misuse of the term natural law, but I'll set that aside for a second.
That's something that drove me up the wall.
I was like, that's not what natural law is and means, but okay.
Anyways, but personality wise, right?
You don't mess with the order of things, you know, and the
bill comes due and all of that.
Uh, but so ancient ones, traditions like here, like you're not going to
understand you're, you know, they had that conversation with strange motos rigid.
He's not going to understand, so I'm not going to tell him, um, Dr.
Strange discovers, man.
He doesn't have a similar reaction as the two of them.
In fact, you know, the ancient ones, like be careful, you know,
not what you speak of and, and he doesn't because he's referring to.
What like actions, what the ancient ones actually doing, and doesn't know about
why the ancient ones doing this right.
And the intention.
And he gets some more clue into it later as she's dying and
they have those conversations.
So she gets, he gets more of that in intention.
Um, and we have strange with the growth of intention between self and moving outward.
And so the all of that I think is, is maybe I never say miss, but under
appreciated in this film of how they're able to take that and show
this complexity of being human and.
What people and their character, you know, we'll do with this type of
Trey: I'm so glad you've set it up that way.
Not only because you've outlined the, it's almost three branches of a story of the
actions of the ancient one and the effect it has on Mordo and Cassius and strange.
And I think because this can take us back to that beginning
where the second act opens up.
The ancient one, explaining what the mere dimension is, and it is a space
for them to practice their continued knowledge without harming the real world.
Uh, so I think that plays off what you were saying about the intention and the,
uh, you know, protecting the others and, and then what, what that effect has on.
And so what I love about it, one of the first note I took is like, man,
the ancient one is a great teacher because she recognizes that strange has
progressing faster than anticipated.
And, uh, rather than like trying to stunt that growth by saying like, Hey, you know,
you're not supposed to be doing this.
She facilitates it in a way that it's a safe space for them in another dimension.
Um, and so it's almost like creating the, like you're going in deeper
rather than facing the problem on, on the hiding the knowledge.
And that might be a stretch on my part, but it also works as it's a place
for them to, to learn more safely.
Uh, so I like what they're doing here with the, the mere dimension.
Yeah.
And, and what it says about strange is as much as we highlighted his ego in the
first one and how so much of what is done.
Or so much of what is driving, what he does, ease vanity.
It is so foreign to him that the real world can not be affected in the mirror
dimension to the point where like, after it happens, like, and I guess
anybody would, would do this, but the fact that it's strange and we know what
path he's been on, like the, the, the way he immediately starts testing it
by like trying to touch the person on the outside of the mirror dimension.
I just love what that is doing in this part of the story.
Jude: Yeah.
Well, and you have this there's element of strain.
Trying to use the skills that he has, but he's not prepared.
You know, he's like, we're in the mirror to mention now.
And he's like, you idiot, he's power powerful.
And the mirror, I mentioned,
Trey: you know, this wasn't
Jude: clever, it was suicide, but it's like, it's like, it's,
it's it's me with computers.
Right.
I know enough how to break it.
Right.
I can make it work for, do what I needed to do.
And if I go beyond that, I just can break it.
I'm never going to fix it and prove it or make it better, you know?
And the doctor granted.
Right.
And that's, and that's Dr.
Strange.
He's like, I, at this point I've learned enough that like, oh, I can look cool.
I really still don't know what I'm doing.
Trey: And again, I think that speaks to.
But what I was saying earlier now, you know, I don't know if
you you're on the same page, so I won't try and group you in on this,
but like that knowledge is advice.
Like he, he has this voracious appetite for continuously learning, but he doesn't
respect the knowledge in a way that.
It is safe for other people.
And I love what they do when he's at that point where he's messing with time
and they do it wonderfully with the visual representation of the apple.
I think there's some illusions, you know, the forbidden, fruit knowledge
and, and everything in that regard.
And it starts to.
Spark questions with Mordo and Wong about how they feel, because they have seen
what happens when someone's ambition outweighs the safeties of others.
And so that's yeah, I mean, that's strange, right then he's, he's
not respecting what he's learning.
Yeah.
You know, another thing that I think gets brought up in this second act and
something that I have found a new found appreciation for based off a Reddit
comment, uh, it helped start getting the gears, turning, uh, Was how, like,
it's clear as day in this, uh, in this episode, in this movie, because it's
a plot point where his Hippocratic oath comes into conflict with the
teachings as they start to gear them up towards fighting in this mystical war.
Um, it's because it's so weird.
Dr.
Strange has appeared in so many Marvel movies at this point, but
he's only had the one solo film.
And so this was a small, not, I don't want to say small.
This was a part of the movie I personally forgot of the way that Hippocratic
oath came into conflict, uh, with.
His new role.
And I think it's something that lasts a lot longer than I give credit for.
Uh, because if you think about the way he handles a lot of conflicts, uh, it
seems to be in not necessarily a peaceful resolution, but a non-lethal resolution.
Uh, and I think that's something that starts here and carries forward.
Well, I'd
Jude: also argue it's important that he brings that up as part of his growth,
uh, cause we talked about right.
Like, no, I'm not going to work in your butcher shop, save one person,
you know, like that doesn't feel like you're honoring the Hippocratic
oath and they're like, this is the patient in front of you, you know?
Um, kind of thing.
Like I'm gonna work on this as the patient cause I have the skill, you know,
and I'm not going to bring any home.
That wasn't really had that it wasn't as mindset, you know?
Um, uh, it wasn't an apparent type mindset.
Well, as you mentioned, right?
Like he wasn't willing to work on a patient because it would mess up his
record, uh, to now you get to this point where it's like, especially when
you have the knowledge of like, you're is probably his best chance, but you
take your perfect record over the best chance to be able the one to help them.
And so to, to now come to a place where it's like, hold on, I have
an oath to help and not do harm.
And I just violated that even when you can make an argument
that that was self-defense.
Um, and he wasn't in the wrong.
So that is very much a moment of this, this character
growth and stepping away from.
The self-centered the ego,
Trey: you know, it feels like, and this is something that we'll all, we'll always
butt heads with when it comes to superhero stories, but it's reminding me of
conversations we had about Daredevil and the, you know, the questions we had with.
Matt says he has this no kill rule, but what level of culpability does he have
when he pushes somebody off the top of a building and they land in like a trashcan
four stories below and it's, it's, you're making me think now it's like, okay.
Yes, this, the Hippocratic oath is something that's important to them.
And I like how you've detailed it as growth, but it almost starts to get
into strangest psyche where yes, he has this, this honor to do no harm,
but in his mind, as long as he does not embark on the beginning of that patient,
then it's not tarnishing his record.
So this is just me speaking out loud to appreciate what you have
given me to, to, to on here.
Jude: But no, it's, it's, it's a, it's a good question, you know, to think about
in that sense and you bring up Daredevil.
Yeah, you didn't kill him.
Didn't help him for sure.
He's never going to be the same for the rest of his life ever.
And he might die from the injuries, but it wasn't immediate.
So like dying from injuries three days later, we give you a pass.
You know what I mean?
It's uh, I mean, in pure real-world legal terms, the answer's no,
right.
Like, I mean, that's honestly the difference between
attempted murder and murder.
You know, again, without being a lawyer in and really diving into the minutia,
you know, like it's, that's what it is.
Right.
Um, you know, to a certain degree.
So it it's, it's one of those things where it's just like, like, yeah, I
will throw them off a building into a trashcan for those watch Disney, you
know, Daredevil when it hits Disney plus.
And as of this recording five days, March
Trey: 16th.
Yep.
So, yeah, I, uh, they're doing a lot of great work here because they, I
mean the way they introduce the, the physical aspect of this, because,
and that's another thing I think that works for this movie is yes,
you have the mystical arts, but they grounded with martial arts as well.
And I think that blending of a grounded and fantastical,
uh, works to their advantage.
But as, as they're seeing a strange goes through his training
and you have that moment.
Where mortals like fights fight.
Like your life depends on it.
Like that moment, you can see a stranger as like, this is not what I signed up
for and they follow it up with him.
He starts to reach back for his old life.
He ha he starts to email Christine, which my point doesn't have a hundred percent
full-proof in this because he does mention like, Hey, I tried to write you multiple
times, but I, at least in the sequencing of the shots, I like that you start
to see him reach back to his old life because he's torn between two worlds.
Uh it's.
It's like what I said when we ended the first act, he has mastered
with the mind once, but now he's in conflict with what the heart wants,
because he has this power, but it is not what he thought it'd be.
Jude: Right.
Well, he still hasn't grown past.
Which was to fix my hands.
And so in that it's, I think you're right.
It is a mix of I've grown and an apology, but even more.
So what did I get myself into, especially in that moment.
Yeah.
Trey: Which in stranger's defense motto is coming on a little strong,
cause they were just having a nice relaxing conversation and all of
a sudden it's like, fight, fight.
Like your life depends on it.
I mean, I would be nervous if somebody started coming out and
Jude: be like that.
Yeah.
And especially in like, well, what do I get my weapon?
The weapon will choose let's bar for the first time I get the boots.
I get the stick, you get flimsy
Trey: shields and a rope.
Right.
Jude: Whatever you got.
Thanks.
You know,
Trey: you know, we joke, but I do think that is important to highlight.
We've been talking around it, but eventually there is an attack on the
London sanctum, and that is one of the, the inciting incidents that really
kicks off the middle of the movie.
But what really incites strange to action and hearkens back to the Hippocratic oath.
It is not until he sees somebody in danger that he really jumps into the action
because of that need to protect and help.
And we joked about the weapons, but his weapons are not lethal.
They're almost in defense.
Like it's a shield, it's the, the rope.
And eventually the Cape that, uh, despite its best to try and strangle
the guys, it's still pretty non-lethal.
Jude: Yeah.
Well look, I have not UN.
At the sink or swim model, car montage, like you need to do a portal.
I can get you to do a portal.
I can drop some off at the top of whatever is, how do you
feel that Mount Everest know?
I don't think it was the top.
Cause it might not have been enough oxygen for him.
No, maybe it was just like midway, but man, like the whole sink or swim model.
Um, we know that I love that you bring that up.
Cause it's, it's the fence of mechanisms and that little it's like
the towel, you know, you used like poppy each other with, but it's magical.
Right?
It's like, that's essentially what he's fighting with.
Um, Oh, man,
Trey: you have recontextualized the Cape for me,
gym class heroes going on,
Jude: that brings up.
I don't want to say fond memories of middle school.
Trey: Yeah.
Those are too incongruous where here in Congress
Jude: words.
Trey: So, you know, I want to circle back to something you said earlier,
you were talking about strangest growth in particular, you use the
idea of like, not apologizing yet.
Uh it's so perfect that you say that because part of the fight that
happens here at the sanctum ends up with strange fighting one of
the zealots and an Asheville form.
Wow.
Christine works.
Is it?
See you later?
I thought it was zealot.
Pretty sure exhibit.
All right, I'll switch it up.
Zelle it, whatever.
Zealot, uh, you know, one, one of the things I think is perfect about it is the
intersection of what we've been talking about, the magic and the realism, but
it hearkens back to strange has gotten to the point where he probably could
operate on himself in theory now, but he's putting that trust into Christine's hands.
And as that fight continues and it's finally over, he does make
that apology you were talking about.
And I thought it was a wonderful moment that we see him at this low
point and make probably one of the most sincere apologies or any sort
of sincere statement, uh, to somebody else for the first time in this movie.
Jude: Oh yeah.
Can I, my thought is, is as I'm going to creep into act three.
Okay.
And then we'll come back, but.
Well in this moment, you're like, oh, he could write astral plane.
And, you know, we could theorize that, you know, but he talks for steam through it.
But after, when, when they go back right after the ancient one takes the fall
and they go back, Nick is there Dr.
West the one that he ameliorated and he holds the scalpel ready to do the surgery.
Then he hands it over to the other doctor.
Like, like that is also a moment of like, I can't do this and this
humility, and now this trusting somebody else with, with this, right.
Or this acknowledgement of like intellectually, I know I can't do
it, but it's not for me to do, you know, and then me in truly setting
the ego aside because the ancient one is also someone he cares about.
Like there's a vested personal injury.
You know, and, and so, so you have that, like you said, apology with
Christine, but then there's a moment where he also, you know, not verbally,
but in action is an apology to doctor.
Which I think is fantastic.
Trey: Yeah.
I'll jump with you because that is definitely a moment
that stood out to me as well.
Uh, and something that I set up with Pangborn at the beginning, it is
through Pang, borns, empathy that strange gets put on this journey.
I love that.
And maybe it's not the exact word, but I'm going to stress the definition
for the point, because I think there is something there, it is strange
showing empathy towards Nick of like, you can do this, that puts Nick in
the position to be able to do the surgery, uh, or at least trust that he
can do it to the best of his ability.
And I, I, like you said, it's a turning point for
Jude: strange.
Yeah.
And we have to, I think, yeah, I'm going to say that we have to imagine what kind
of moment or ego boost maybe, maybe just moment that is for, for Nick to have
strange who would constantly be little them to then say, here you do this.
And it was all done.
I don't remember.
I don't think there was words.
It was all done with facial expressions and the handing over the scalpel,
but the way that moment was done, it was, you know, you can see PA apology
accepted maybe, or this boost of confidence in doc, in Nick, you know?
And so in that sense, like it was just a really well done to like
close that story between them too.
I do want to say this.
I hate just skipping ahead because I remember the first time in the
theater and that fall in ancient one, hitting the glass and the concrete.
And I was like, oh wow, that's brutal.
A hundred percent brutal.
Like I
Trey: went, I still wins every time that scene and
Jude: I know it's coming.
Yeah.
Oh.
And there was a beheading and act one when Castillio stole the
pages from cache Cagliari estro, write a book and Kelly OSHA.
And I still like, okay, it's a movie, but that one that felt it.
I think you
Trey: hear it kind of like plop into the culture in which makes it so much worse.
Well, now I feel even worse about having to go back.
Essentially.
All we got left to talk about in act two was just the, the ensuing fight itself.
Uh, you did already mentioned about how mortar was like, Hey, this wasn't clever.
It was, it was suicide.
And it all builds up to this moment where the ancient one intervenes and saves Moto
and strange to fight off the zealots.
The zealots and and the reason why, like we always talk about this when it
comes to the action, it's just like us going to go, like, man, that was so cool.
My note is literally the ancient ones, so cool.
Like she comes in and her entrance into that mirror dimension
mention just so fantastic.
The thing I love about the way she plays the character is she comes
in with this stern composed face as she's fighting off and then she looks
towards strange and Mordo, as she's realizing her life's been exposed
and you can see the pain on her face.
And then she goes back to that stern, look with the Visalia.
And then as he starts to lay out his grievances, you can see that
she feels that pain as well.
So even though she has to be this stern form of defense, she still
cares about . And I think that
Jude: goes a long way.
And I think, I think that caring is what brings about her death.
And one of the things.
That you see here is Cassellius was willing to kill one of his
own to get to the ancient one.
And that's, I mean, it goes without saying that that's not something the ancient
one is like, that's not something you'd expect the ancient one to do, but clearly
you could make a case that, well, ancient one wasn't expecting it either, right.
But if she's traveled forward in time and to say, every time I stop at this
moment, it also stays as a reason that she knew that that was going to happen
and still ran into that situation anyways, which is very, you can eat.
I mean, the day you want are two ways.
That's either.
The whole Mordo, I'm not going to mess with natural law, although that's not
the proper term or it's, you know, cause like this is what fate says is
going to happen or it's no, I'm going to go protect them anyways, even though
this is going to happen, you know?
Um, so yeah, so it, it's just, I do find that really fascinating
about her character there.
Well,
Trey: if it's okay with you, I want to play off that by fully
transitioning us into act three.
I know I normally start with you.
Uh, but I, I think we've, we've kinda tiptoe between these two, you know, you
talked about the idea of her knowing when this was going to happen and that's
something I've never really thought about.
But now that you've said that out loud, it's gotten my, my wheels
turning and it pairs so nicely.
One of the most beautiful scenes I think in this movie, uh, and to get
into it, you, you know, you already talked about the scene with Nick, where
he hands him, the scalpel, if that is the externalization of the lesson,
learned like the, the, the actions that he takes is the, the lesson learned,
demonstrated it is that conversation with the ancient one where she just says,
it's not about you, that it finally, because the way they do it, they have
where they're both in their astral form.
Uh, the camera's almost to, I believe the right of the ancient ones.
There's Dr.
Strange.
And then it pans to the left and you see strange through the translucent
nature of the ancient one, as that's like that realization is coming across.
That is the internal psyche realization of the lesson.
He fully understands it on a conscious level, uh, that it's not
Jude: about him.
Like that's a classic.
Right.
So you have the shirt shot, reverse shot behind them.
And as the aha moment happens, or the glass shattering moment happens, it's
a one movement or the camera swings around to a different perspective to
show us that there is a new perspective in the character, you know, and now it's
shot reverse shot from the front and.
And you, and w when you know that that's a, that's a technique and you're
looking for it, you know, you see it a lot of like, oh, you're having this.
And all of a sudden, whoa, the dynamic something's changed.
It went from nice to hostile or hostile or hostile, hostile, take
your pick to nice that, like, there's a, yeah, there's a shift.
Um, in that shift of the, is that a homo?
And it was another example of just great filmmaking on Scott Derrickson
Trey: spark, it's a literal shift and perspective.
Uh, and, and, and I bring that, all that up because like everything, all my notes
are geared towards that moment of Dr.
Strange.
But it makes me realize that's what I think drew the ancient one to Dr.
Strange, because she had to learn that lesson herself.
It's not about you, it's not about her.
And as many times as she's tried to foresee past this moment, and even at the
end of her life, as she tries to extend it, just to enjoy the snow one more time.
She is finally made peace with this is where it ends.
And you mentioned earlier about the, and I'm not going
to try and recap it perfectly.
Cause I think I might do it a disjustice, but you're talking about the desires
and it's not bad to have desires.
It's the ability to let them go.
If I understood that correctly, what's beautiful is I think
so much of what the lesson.
Of this movie is, is that the ancient one had reached this status of, I have this
knowledge, I have this mystical arts.
I have almost this, I don't want to say I'm , but it's just, there's so much vast
knowledge after so much time and being able to see in the future and despite
all that, she still had that human part of her was she was afraid of death
and she tried to control it for years.
And so that's one of the lessons.
And one of the smaller lessons with that is that I don't think there,
there, there are no right answers.
There's just only the best of intentions.
And so the, the group of people that she was left to work with, which is Mordo
and strange is between the two of them.
There should be an ability to, you know, know when it's okay to break
the rules for the greater good.
And when it's okay to adhere to the rigid structures of safety, which
is what I think mortal represents on one end and strange on the other.
Jude: Well to that last thing, I have a couple of thoughts I'm gonna, I'm gonna,
I'm gonna set that thought to the side for a second and just be, uh, cause I
love that conversation because, because also what you get, or at least for me,
you get that apology to, to Nick, right.
And handing over the scalpel.
And then he goes in the astral form and then he realizes, wait a minute.
I could have used my hands.
Like he has reached the point where pain board has, you know, and, and
you see where he's gone further than paying horn, paying horn Pangborn.
Um, you know, it it's it's that desire.
Right.
Sell it.
Um, is that, there's that desire, right?
It's like you said, it's.
It's it's understanding that desire isn't bad, but this desire
it's impossible to be fulfilled.
And so you, you outgrow it and, and, and your desire, um, is still there,
but you desire something different, something deeper and more meaningful.
And then when that's you realize, you know, strictly Buddhist sense or, or
a Hindu Buddhist sense is like that desire, you realize, oh wait, this
isn't going to be fulfilling either.
So the desire doesn't go away, but it again goes deeper to ultimately
in a strictly Hindu San since like, what do we really want?
Well, we want intranet knowledge into exist.
Infinite.
Right.
And beyond all of this.
And it's like, isn't it interesting with death?
Cause like there's a, I used to, we all wrestle with our own
mortality in different ways.
And for the longest time, you know, one of the ways I wrestled with it
and conclusion I came to it was, um, and to make a long story short, you
know, just to sum it up and say, it's irrational to be afraid of death.
Um, it just is because it's going to happen.
We know what's going to happen.
Um, and if we're honest with ourselves, What we're really
afraid of is death too soon.
Right.
Um, and, and that's where I was at.
And I remember talking with a good friend of mine where he turned, and this was a
couple of years ago where he turned 70.
And I remember having this conversation with them and he was like, dude,
now that I'm 70, I'm much closer to my death than I ever was.
And I can tell you that still death is too going to be too soon.
You know?
And that's always stuck with me of like age wise.
Like that was how I wrestled in, you know what I mean?
And like in like rationalize that of like, oh, I'm okay with it.
It's going to happen.
It's just too soon.
But as you get older, you realize, well, that doesn't even make
sense because I've been clinging.
I, this, the angel one I'm stretching, even this moment out.
Um, death is always going to be too soon, unless you're at peace
and your fill that fulfillment.
Right.
Um, and again, go back to Hindu and Buddhist thought, that's the whole
reaching enlightenment, Nirvana and escaping the life cycle is.
Ultimate contentment and fulfillment, right.
Um, that comes with understanding the attachment, do everything right.
Or your, or not attachment, maybe everything is in relationship.
Um, the Christian Catholic sense is going to be, I've led
a good Christ's life, right?
That I am now worthy of the going to heaven just to put it that way.
Um, you know, so the, the, the Catholic Christian Catholic and
Christian version of that would be of, of death would be there.
Um, you know, and I think that's what, what you were saying.
Once you see the ancient one wrestling with, of like,
look, I know it's inevitable.
I know it's coming.
I've seen this moment, moment many of times, and I'm still trying to
stretch out this, this one moment.
You know, and then it reaches a point where it's like, and for me, at
least the way I read it, she let go.
It wasn't like the time ran out because you see that dialogue, her disappear,
and then the flat line, otherwise, if you reverse that editing and
flatline and then her disappear, it's like, she dies still clinging to it.
If that makes sense, a hundred
Trey: percent makes sense and a wonderful read.
Jude: So I really love that aspect again, his strange and his desire, like knowing
all this magic and like, oh, I'm going to go to the national forum and try to
stop the ancient one from doing this.
He also realizes not just to, not about you, but it's like, wait a minute.
I actually can control my hands.
And, and he didn't realize it before.
It's almost like he was, I didn't learn enough yet to control my hands.
And now he's realizing, oh, wait a minute.
I've grown past that.
That's not really what I desire.
That's not really what I want, is it, you know?
And, and that's an ultimate sense of, of growth.
And this there's more to me and being who I am, you know?
And, and I remember now, but there's dialogue.
And I think it comes at this point after the ancient ones, a death, but
where he says to Christine you're right.
There's other ways to save and help people.
It is
Trey: after the passing of the, and it's when he's washing his
Jude: hands.
And so, and again, what he's washing his hands.
Right.
And so we're back at the hands.
And in that moment, it's not just about like, oh, I accept the fate of my hands.
I accept that.
I have grown past this and I've grown into a completely different person.
I'm going
Trey: to read you my notes verbatim because I you're,
you're making me happy right now.
I love the scene as well, because we now know that strange can heal his hands yet.
We're backward started for him cleansing his hands, but this time with the
ability to choose his old life, but he chooses to serve the greater good.
We've almost finished the hero journey, but now it's time to
return home having changed.
Like it was just like, oh, it's so good.
Yeah.
Jude: Yeah.
And, and what was that first stage I got to go back and mortar is
going to be pissed, but I got to talk you into, you said you got to
fight like your life depended on it.
Now's the time.
And I can't do it.
Wasn't specifically.
I can't do this by myself, you know?
And so before he even goes into battle, he has to go get.
Whereas earlier it's like, I could have done it bachelor's degree, right?
Oh
Trey: man.
I get, I get why this be
Jude: so good.
So good.
Trey: Oh man.
We took two different buses, but we were on the same field trip there.
I, uh, I, I get why people don't like this movie strangest such a jerk, right?
It really is.
But if you give it that space, that journey that they take them on is so good.
I know, I love this man.
I'm glad we're doing this podcast
Jude: together.
It's so good.
Oh, room.
Trey: You know, we, we're getting to the point where we find ourselves in a lot
of these Marvel movies where we kind of just got the action stuff to talk about.
Uh, not that that's not important, but a.
We usually group it together and kind of a big lump.
So is there any, any scene in particular that stood out to you
with, with these final action bits because it kind of Pickens it
Jude: quickens up the pace from here.
You're saying, I want to say about the action, um, is going to be, I
remember thinking this is amazing.
I've never seen anything like it before, and I want to say.
Christopher Nolan thought the same thing.
And then when it made tenent and w I knew Christopher Nolan was like, hold my beer.
I'm going to do reverse forward at the same time, just like you
did, but with the same people
Trey: I'm going to do you one better.
I, 100%, this is my own personal head.
Canon inception comes out and inspires doctor, strange doctor
strange comes out and inspires tenet.
And I'm very curious to see if we can see any sort of light of inspiration
from tenet into multi versatile madness.
Oh yeah.
Because it's just, the visuals are so much like what inception was doing
with that dreamy mind bendy stuff.
And like you said, the added that element of time, which inception played with,
but not quite to the extent that Dr.
Strange does, and then 10, it just takes
Jude: it to 11.
T again, I've lost all objectivity to Tinder.
I might watch it tonight just talking about it and just, I love that
Trey: you won't be finished until like
Jude: three.
I don't care.
I love that movie.
Look with my headache today.
I actually took like a four hour nap if Amity didn't wake me up at like
four in the afternoon, because worried about like me not being able to sleep.
I might've slept until we started recording.
I was out, you know, and she was so sweet.
She brought me tea, she brought me something, a little snack on, you know,
shut the door and I kind of took my time.
And then eventually she came and just opened the door.
So Francis the pod mascot would come running in and jump on the bed
just to ensure that I would get up.
Yeah.
So like it's it's yeah, I I'm in, I can watch that movie again,
but now, so like I'm, I'm there, like it it's, it's so good.
And you have that.
So like, that was one of the things I thought about just the action.
Um, you know, I think I put a pin on a couple of things.
One is like, we, we end in two ways a, um, at the very end, you see Dr.
Strange putting his watch back on, right.
And kind of this momentum.
Right.
Remember, you know, the, when I say memento, I'm thinking like, again,
Nolan, um, you know, his first, his second film, I guess, was it momentum?
I believe it was the second one.
Yeah.
Well, no, what I'm saying is, is it is, is you're you're getting into this
and making sure I'm saying it right as it's this Latin for, I believe for
remember, you know, and, and so, so in that sense, like, it's literally have
like put this on and, and here's the, that reminder, remember where you came
from, you know, it's that, it's that, that object of, of humility and growth
to like, don't let this get to your head.
Right.
Um, and so you, so you have that from the beginning of, of this controlling
of time from a egotistical power since.
To use of time, which our mom, who in a unselfish way, because at some
point, like he says the line, like, you know, death is an old friend, right.
Or pain as an old friend.
And when you're in a place like now you get a little bit philosophical,
I guess, you know, and for as many times as they show it, we have to
imagine for as many times as they showed his death times infinity, right.
Because Dormamuu is outside of time and doesn't experience
time, the way we understand it.
Right.
And now Dre, strangers trapped them in a time loop in a sense
he trapped himself in eternity.
And the only way he can get out is when Dormamuu realizes my escape is to do the.
You know, so that control of time is there again, but it's out of a,
a selfless motivation, which I loved how they use that towards the end.
So that was super
Trey: clever and it kind of goes back to what we were.
Well, what I said earlier about he doctors are Dr.
Strange Steven strange is doing the good thing with the wrong intentions.
You could argue he's doing the wrong thing here with messing with
time, for the good intentions and the, the selfish, uh, intentions.
Because if regardless, strange succeeds, right.
Either he gets the bargain and he gets to continue, or they are
trapped in that arrangement forever.
And it's, it's, it's not in the mirror dimension, but it's.
It calls back to it.
Nobody would know what strange has done, and he would have saved the world and
the world would have been better for it.
And so it just, it really remains one of my favorite resolutions, I think, in
the MCU, because it's so inventive on a visual level, on a narrative level and,
and kind of like you're getting at that philosophy level of, I love the line.
I can lose all, all day and are not mixing.
And captain America one I can, uh, I can lose over and over and
Jude: over again.
And the other pin on this in terms of like defeating himself, right.
And Cassius, he didn't overpowers Cassius.
Right?
It's, it's a weird version of cause Cassilis dies, but it is a weird spin
on laying down the shield, laying down the sword or whatever it is, right.
There's this redemption almost through nonviolence.
Right.
Cause he's like, he realizes like I can't beat you.
And, and it, and it walks this fine line and he'd say like, oh, we're messing.
Like, like the only reason why you would say you're doing it, the right
thing, or you have the right intentions.
But the wrong means, right.
By using the time loop is because you have the Mordo plant of
natural law, natural law, you don't mess with this bill comes due.
Right.
And so, but really what, you know, I, you think about it.
He's like, I can't beat you at your own game.
I'm going to go do this.
And he returns.
And when he returns, what it's you get this again?
All right.
Get up strange, you know, and they all stand up and we see that moment again
and strange comes in behind and he's able to do that because he's returning
time travel on a really small scale.
You know, and, and so in that sense, he's like he didn't have
to fight him to defeat him.
You know, it was, it was a conquering of, of Cassius wanting
this power and that desire for power and being driven for that.
And strange realizing that I chew was driven by ambition and power, and
that's not the way to go about things.
And by sacrificing myself to an eternity of just over and over
death is really what won the day.
And because Cassius doesn't understand that he is in a sense defeated, you know,
or the power hungry side of strange that's represented in Cassius is defeated then.
So that's the other thing where it was just like super
clever of how they ended it.
Now, the last thing I will say, and when he said, oh, the well, and I
said, ah, I, I do struggle with the idea of saying like, You know, and,
and again, I'd mentioned the very beginning of the Catholic in me.
Um, again, not speaking for Catholicism, I'm just saying the Catholic in me,
this is the whole, you know, can I, in a moral sense, do something quote
unquote, wrong or bad for a good outcome?
Is that morally acceptable?
And my intuition and inclination is the same now, you know?
And, and so that is one of those things where it's just like, is there
a situation where someone personally can do intentionally a bad action
to serve as a, so it'd be like, my primary intent is for the good result.
And I have to allow secondarily the secondary intention of
doing an intentional, bad act.
Um, gut reaction is like, no, we can't do that.
Um, now I realize.
I'm way over simplifying a lot of things.
Cause there's probably people out there who just like, I
mean, what about this situation?
What about that situation?
I'm going to be like, oh, let's talk about principle of double effect and, or, you
know, the direct and indirect voluntary to get a little bit more technical, you
know, and we'll have those conversations.
So I realize I'm way oversimplifying it.
Um, but in the context of like, like the, as the rigidity and the flexibility that
you see between Mordo and strange, um, I would argue that somewhere where I'm just
like, okay, I need to take that side of my mind and set it aside to enjoy the movie.
Oh
Trey: man.
Yeah.
I, I guess that's why it works for me because it is that it speaks to me
of believing there's a happy medium and knowing when to flip between
them, the, that, uh, I don't know.
I'd hit me really hard in that
Jude: scene.
Yeah.
Well, and I get it and that's just a function of.
And we all, we all deal with it in our own way.
You come in to a test.
I don't care what it is.
This podcast, a movie, a book with viewpoints and experiences.
And what are you able to set aside and not, and that has a big
impact on what works for people.
Trey: So I think, uh, one of the few things that I want to add is real quick.
We, we talked about the, uh, the spectrum, I guess, if you want to put it to
the re the rigidity and the flexible.
Well, no, I can't say this.
You can agree to this.
Cause this is actually speaking more to my point.
I love Wong's reaction to it.
Wong understands, Hey, don't mess with the natural law, but I love his line where he,
where he'd say we're strange saves Wong from dev and walks, like looking at him.
He's like, I know the natural law.
And while I was like, well, don't stop now.
Right?
So in, in my, in my viewpoint of the, the problem here, Wong is
the embodiment of that in between.
I know this is wrong, but keep it going
Jude: well.
And they really played into Martos rigidity, right?
Like, yeah.
Great.
You saved the day, but the Bill's going to come.
You know, like, yeah.
Oh, how haunting even our mortal couldn't even be happy with the resolution.
Trey: Oh, Mordo is one a hundred percent broken.
And I think broken, it has the potential to be one of the, it depends
on where we want to go with this.
And I don't know if we want to dig too deep into it.
A potential to be a huge antihero in the MCU has a lingering one.
Um, because we see what the post credit reveals about them.
But because we got this almost origin story of them, I could
see him being a lingering threat within the MCU without being like
a main antagonist, not to, not to.
Under sell him as a character, but more so of being that constant of an
idea to bounce off of, if that makes sense, not nest, not necessarily
an antagonist that needs to be
Jude: defeated.
Well, I'd also say in terms of broken, I would say it's a different kind of
broken because when strange puts back, the watch back on it is that's still
broken and it's this, as I said, this memento, this reminder that again,
the Catholic coming out of me, we're all broken right to certain degrees
and that's what makes us human.
And the goal is, and like Steven Cole bears words to be most human.
That's what we all want.
Right?
Like we want to be, have gratitude that we even exist in our life and
comes with that as suffering could just necessarily the case and.
I have gratitude for that, because now I can empathize with other people because
I have suffered and I can empathize with them when they have suffered.
We are broken.
Whereas more dose brokenness is a, is a very different
type of brokenness, you know?
Um, and it's that, that whole, so tightly wound rigidity of can't
let go of something, you know, it's the, from Les Miz, right.
And his whole song about the stars that are constant.
And because of that, I'm good.
Um, and then that's something shatters that and like, this
is that moment for Mordo.
Um, yeah.
And it's, you know, and, and you can't reconcile like, oh, this happened,
but it's, you know, and, and, and Nate, he goes off no longer follow
this path and can't follow this path.
Um, and I mean, in lame is I don't feel like, I mean, it's a spoiler
if you haven't seen it, but yeah.
I'm okay with it at this point, like it leads to a suicide.
Like I can no longer this.
And like, in Martos case, it's like, I can't follow this path.
And I got.
You know, any the tag using sorcery powers insured.
There's no more source
Trey: despite how we talked about it being like a quote-unquote success in strange,
this movie really ends on a downer.
Uh, I mean, everything you just described with Mordo the earth now
being without a sorcerer Supreme, and even though strangers embraced
his new life, there is some sadness still associated with that scene.
You talk about where he's putting on the watch and just kind of looking out as the
music swells it's the protagonists have one, but man, there is a heavy price paid
and I've never thought about it until hearing you articulate what you just did.
And then kind of speaking through this, that it really hammers home.
The bill comes due feeling here at the end.
Jude: Strange isn't reunited with Christina.
It's putting on the broken watch in isolation and the sanctum, you know,
Trey: well at a movie.
Well, uh, unless we have any more to say, I think we can move into our listeners
Jude: first takes.
I think we should move into Alicia's first takes.
Cause we could probably find things to say this movie is so good.
Trey: I purposely avoided straight thoughts for that reason.
So if you don't know, we put out on social media that we
were going to be reviewing Dr.
Strange, and you've all been patiently waiting since it's been a bit of a, uh,
of a time since we tweeted this out.
Uh, and we asked everyone, what was the first scene you thought
of whenever you think about Dr.
Strange?
Uh, so we're going to read through some of the responses we got
both on Instagram and Twitter.
Uh, and this first one comes in from Benji FET seven over on Instagram, love the pod.
Uh, for me it was the ancient one brought strange under the mountain
and made him make the portal.
Uh, yeah, we talked about that one and I, I think you're right.
We.
You know, do you classify it as, as pushing strange into the deep end, but
I think what's special about that scene as well is how you can start to see the
doubt a little bit on the ancient one.
And she's like, oh no, maybe this was a bad idea right before he comes back.
Jude: So I'm glad you love the pod.
And I love the name.
Mingy FET seven.
I love it.
Fantastic.
Trey: I'm sorry.
I'd poo-pooed Boba Fett two weeks ago.
Jude: The character there's the show.
Um, yeah.
Thanks for the clarification.
Yeah, next one.
Dormamuu I've come to.
Ben dot Maddie on Instagram.
Yeah.
Like again, it's Hey, it's such a, it's such a clever scene.
I feel like it's, again, it's one of those things that it,
that it felt new and fresh to me.
Like I like, oh, this is so clever.
I've not seen it in this way before.
Trey: Um, this next one comes from caption life on Instagram.
It reads Cape flicking, strange as hair.
Ain't no, that's not something that we talked about in this review.
And it's probably something I would have brought up in the stray thoughts
was the, this moment I think is a perfect representation of the
criticism that Marvel gets a lot about like, oh, you know, let your,
let your emotional scenes linger.
And yet they interject it with comedy.
But man, it's still so funny.
I hate that.
I love it and hate it at the same time.
Jude: Yeah.
Like I, I agree.
And that's the, one of the things I bring up of like, oh
man, that's such a good moment.
Why you undercut it?
But it's not like I didn't laugh.
It's not like I didn't enjoy it.
So yeah, the next one, when the ancient one introduces strange to the mirror
dimension, uh, that's from TK on Twitter.
Trey: Go ahead and jump in and read this one and we can both make our comments.
Uh, this one comes in from friend Daniel on Twitter and
it says the mirror dementia.
Yeah.
Jude: Well, you know what?
Okay, so the next one what's strange is in the mirror dimension, Cassius out
Rodriguez on Twitter from MTU rewind.
I love that all three of those from TK, you know, there was an idea,
Marvel cinematic universe podcast, Fred Daniel, the universal friend who
frequently on ours and case podcast.
Um, if you're looking for a guest and you have another podcast, reach out to
Fred Daniel, um, and Rodriguez look at listen to their stuff, Alan, Tony on
MC rewind, but it's perfect that the mirror dimension was moment three times.
Cause that was such an integral part to.
Uh, the movie in such an integral part to just the Rubik's cube
environment, it's just, it was amazing.
Trey: The structural beauty that this narrative has with the
mirror dimension is chef's kiss.
Like it opens up with the mirror, dimensioned fight
with KCLS and the ancient one.
And we go through all this strange learns about the mirror dimension, and
it's all new to him as he's taken in on this knowledge and the inciting action
that kicks us all the way through the end is when strange learns to do the
mirror dimension on his own and fights.
Casey Lee is there, come on.
So good.
Jude: I know when it blows my mind and we didn't talk about it in this
action sequence talking about it, and this is again, the Mordo and
stuff, and they really like the whole city's moving around the imagination
and the creativity to do this.
Because you have to, you know, they're going to do an animatic, they're going
to story new, basically animatic.
So you're going to have storyboards, but this is an actual, like
rough animation storyboard.
So, you know, going in where to place the camera and all of those things, but
then to do that, you have to, you know, and see some of the behind the scenes.
There's a lot of green screen work, but there's also practical sets as well.
And to think through all of that and the angles and all that just blows
my mind of how that scene works.
So well.
Trey: It's, I think every time I've watched it with a
friend, the first thing is.
How do you even begin to conceptualize all this?
Right?
Like where do you
Jude: start?
Why we have the pod?
Trey: All right.
Well, this next one comes in from bubbles dancer on Twitter.
Good friend bulbs.
Uh, Dormamuu I've come to be a pain in the ass, or at least that's
how I remember the scene going.
So it's, uh, it's pretty clear that Bubs is, uh, written for Dormamuu.
Jude: I love your memory of it attached to
Trey: it.
Like to see a recount of this movie of bugs, his memory of it.
Jude: Dr.
Strange.
I'm a pain in the ass.
Get ready.
All right.
I am so thrilled as I get to read this last one.
So the last one Wong listening to Beyonce kin from Twitter kid, my
good friend and coworker that I believe his nephew listens as well.
Um, The whole, the one that just says, listen to Beyonce, but the whole one name
thing, pong, Beyonce, just, this gets me.
Um, cause I mean, what was the rest?
Right?
There was Bingy FET, spin dot Maddie captioned, life TK,
front Daniel Al Rodriguez.
Bubbles.
Ken,
just so fitting that that's the one he did where it was like walking,
listening to me, I'd say, cause that was the whole joke about it.
Like the one, the one name, one word name.
Uh, but yes, so good.
That was, I too remember watching it, um, at the theater and think
of that moment was awesome.
And I still, every time love that.
Awesome.
And again, it's another one of those things where you're, where
they're messing with stereotypes.
Trey: Yeah.
It's just, it's so wonderfully done set up and paid off it's to me, that's the good
humor for all the criticism that it gets.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Well, that's going to do it for the listeners first take.
So I, I do want to say thank you all so much for chiming in with your thoughts.
It's always a fun time to get, to hear what you thought of, whatever,
you know, TV show or movie we happen to be reviewing that week.
Well, dude, that brings us to the end of the show.
Any final words on the.
Jude: Live long and prosper.
Ah, I love it.
Oh man.
Well, that's all I got.
It's 1145.
We've been at this in seven 30.
I got nothing else.
I
Trey: know friend, not friend Daniel, family, Daniel cursed us.
Jude: I know.
Right.
But it was fun.
Trey: It was fun.
Thank you so much for listening.
And of course, if you want to chime in what you thought of Dr.
Strange, our takes on Dr.
Strange or any of the listeners takes.
You can always reach us at MC you need to know on Twitter and Instagram.
It's a great place to connect with us and continue the conversation of this
Jude: podcast.
Be sure to scroll.
Uh, in the show notes, you'll see a link to our discord.
You can join that.
Um, real quick apology.
I have been Mia on the discourse.
I feel guilty reading or reading.
I don't, I just make it up each time.
Uh, this part of the outro, I'm looking forward to myself, jumping back in and
getting involved again, had a weird stretch of weeks that kept me from it.
Um, however, if you have been in and go join, you're going to see, you can get to
interact with people like friend Daniel and some TK and Ellie from OSHA podcast
and Trey and Sean from the caption life and a bunch of other wonderful people.
Uh, That I'm not too name.
Cause I don't know if they feel comfortable being
named outright, hear them.
I know it's okay.
Uh, but come and join.
The conversation is it's a wonderful place.
Um, other things you can do for us, you're here and you've made
it to this point time and assume you like what you're listening to.
Please leave a rating review, especially on Spotify, since
that's a new feature, um, and it's will help our discoverability.
And that's great for us.
You're helping us by being discovered or.
Push somebody along, share it with a friend.
Yeah.
Trey: We'd also like to thank Nick Sandy for the use of our theme song, which
is his rendition of the Avengers theme.
You find more of his work on a SoundCloud, which is linked in the show notes as well.
That's going to do it.
Thank you so much for listening and Jude.
Thank you so much for doing this.
Thank you tray.
We'll see you all next week.
Okay.
So when I did this solo episode last week, it felt so weird doing,
thank you all for listening.
We'll see you all next week.
I was so missing the thank-you you for doing
Jude: so you didn't add, like, thanks Jude for baling.
See you all.
Trey: I guess it's got to be an inflection next time.
It's like, thank you, Jude for doing this.
Jude: Thanks for your absence.
If you don't like the solo episode, tweeted cheese.
Trey: All complaints can be sent to Jude at MC and you know,
Jude: that's so funny that you would say, as you say that, because
that email doesn't exist yet.
Trey: Oh, I was saving you.
Okay.
I'm not going to docs or email.
Oh man.
And to think we wouldn't get an intake.
Right.
All right.
I'm going to
Jude: start recording.
Sorry.
I'll stop.
Trey: Just under three hours.