[00:00:00] Teaser --- [00:00:00] Elena: the first initial set of very hard conversation was with the security teams, internally who had to assess every tool that we had, from hosting provider for our website to our, marketing automation. [00:00:15] Every single add-on and feature was assessed and for every single one, there were security findings that we had to address So that was a lot of fun. So if you are thinking if somebody is thinking of joining a larger company, right? Or being acquired by a large organization, I think like prepare, to be patient and, it is what it is. It's just a process. [00:00:39] ​ [00:01:06] In This Episode --- [00:01:06] Phil: What's up folks? Today we have the pleasure of sitting down with Elena Hassan, global Head of Integrated Marketing at Visa Direct. Elena spent seven years at Currency Cloud and International Payment Startup as Head of Marketing before they were acquired by Visa. And this episode we cover what nobody tells you about merging tech stacks. [00:01:22] After an acquisition. Once startup marketers learn the hard way when they land at a big corporation. Why? Marketers who understand customer data win more internal battles and why? Great marketers lead by influence, not org charts, all that and a bunch more stuff after a super quick word from two of our awesome partners. [00:01:41] ​ [00:03:56] Elena, thanks so much for your time today. Bump the chat. [00:03:58] Elena: Thank you for having me.[00:04:00] [00:04:01] Darrell: Yeah. Nice to meet you. Um, [00:04:03] What Startup Marketers Learn the Hard Way When They Land at a Big Corporation --- [00:04:03] Darrell: very interesting career. Like I see that the three startups you worked at were acquired. Sivan was acquired by Refinitiv, uh, work market was acquired by a DP, and then Currency Cloud was, uh. Acquired by Visa where you work now, which is a massive company. Like, can you share a little bit about, you know, what your experience was like navigating between those transitions? [00:04:26] Are you like a transition or acquisition master or like, was it very bumpy? Like let, let like riff on that a little bit for us. [00:04:34] Elena: Sure. I can't say I'm prob, I'm an acquisition master or has been an acquisition master. I think I moved throughout my career. Um, and was fortunate enough to work with, uh, great teams and good companies that actually were headed for success. So I think I can't take that away and, uh, and only, um, speak for myself. [00:04:57] Um, I think it was interesting journey for me [00:05:00] from the, I. You know, from the perspective of I started as a hardcore lead gen dimens person in the first, uh, in the beginning of my career. I actually was fortunate enough that I had, I got to try different things, like a little bit of event, a little bit of, uh, employee engagements and things like this. [00:05:17] And I landed with, um, lead gen programs and managing them really well. Um, I have sort of went into work market as a demand gen expert, um, and. I think from there on the transition, there was probably the most impactful and interesting to me because there firsthand I saw that switch over from startup and hyper growth, driving lots of demand, and then they getting ready for some kind of exit and then switching over to brand building, uh, from, you know, demand gen engine has built. [00:05:53] Everything's great. Now it's time to build the brand and do media and PR and all those things. [00:06:00] And I think, um, being a young marketer at that time, I didn't always quite appreciate the, the effort it takes to build a brand. Uh, I think I came there with a mindset of if I can't track it, I'm not gonna do it. [00:06:14] Um, which is again, every performance marketer would probably relate to something like this. And then from there on, and now in my role at Visa, a lot of my work is, uh, very much around building the brand and awareness. And, um, I thoroughly appreciate the a, the impact that brand awareness brings and the effort that it takes to build it. [00:06:39] Phil: It's very cool. Currency Cloud, I feel like grew really fast. Like you were there for quite a bit of time, but I'm sure you know from however many people there were when you started to reaching 700, but then you reached like a whole new scale when you got to Visa, like 30 k plus people at, at the mothership. [00:06:57] Now, what was like the first [00:07:00] moment where you realized when you joined Visa, where you're like, shit, I'm, I'm not in startup anymore. Like this is a different game. [00:07:07] Elena: Uh, that's an interesting question. So I think, um, the first, I think the first moment anybody realizes they are, they are working for a large corporate, uh, company is when they come across, um, a new vendor that they wanna explore, potentially work with, uh, a new contract that they wanna sign. Or the speed at which you are used to putting out the marketing campaigns, even as simple as social graphics in the startup environment, you'd probably go put something together on Canva, um, you know what good enough is and just post it. [00:07:49] Where, uh, I think very quickly we realized, okay, no, actually everything needs to be approved by legal. Um. And maybe again, I'm not a hundred percent sure, but [00:08:00] since we're a financial regulated entity, maybe the rules are slightly different, um, and a little bit stricter for us. But that, I think was the first moment where you're like, oh, wow, it is gonna take us, uh, a few months to put together a marketing campaign, not a few weeks. [00:08:16] Um, I mean for all the right reasons, but nonetheless is that it's that initial shock of, um. You know how much effort and how long everything takes. [00:08:29] Phil: A lot of folks that we chat with, sorry, darl, like they go like maybe they're in a startup right now and then they get a job at Enterprise and they're joining an enterprise and maybe like there's a bunch of people starting at the same time as them, but like they're the only person kind of joining that team and the whole team is used to it. [00:08:46] What Nobody Tells You About Merging Tech Stacks After an Acquisition --- [00:08:46] Phil: When there's like an acquisition, like you had all of your teammates, maybe some folks left, but like the majority of folks probably. Went along with the acquisition and so you weren't alone in that transition. You had a lot of folks to like chat with and, and [00:09:00] manage that, that transition. Talk, talk about that a little bit. [00:09:02] Like were there some folks that, um, maybe on like the marketing operations side and they had to like chat with different marketing operations teams across different business teams at Visa, comparing tech stacks, deciding like what is the transition process gonna look like there? Maybe chat about that a bit. [00:09:20] Elena: Sure, I think there's definitely was a lot of that conversations around, uh, you know, two parity and which one is. Is the, is the better one. I think the first initial set of very hard conversation was with the security teams, uh, internally who had to assess every tool that we had, um, from hosting provider for our website to our, you know, marketing automation. [00:09:52] Every single add-on and feature that was built into. HubSpot, which, which is what we had at Currency Cloud, [00:10:00] um, was assessed and for every single one, there were security findings that we had to address and multiple ones. So that was a lot of fun. Resolving fun, not really, uh. Uh, resolving and having these conversations. [00:10:17] Again, these are the security people. They don't, they're not marketers. They're, they don't have necessarily a lot of knowledge around why we need this tool and what this tool does, but there, the certain requirements, um, that these tools need to meet sometimes don't make sense. Um, so it was, we had at some point, we got to the point where we had. [00:10:41] I think chief technology officer with cybersecurity team of HubSpot sitting down with our team trying to resolve, um, um, kind of the situation. And again, it wasn't the situation, it was just we needed to get to the same ground of understanding what it is and what it isn't and what [00:11:00] this tool does. So that was, that was an interesting process. [00:11:07] So if you are thinking if somebody is thinking of joining a larger company, right? Or is in the CASP of AC being acquired by a large organization, I think like prepare, uh, to be patient and, um, it is what it is. It's just a process. [00:11:25] Darrell: Yeah, and I was just gonna share some of my experience too, because I, I did similar jumps from, you know, startups to, to big companies. And, uh, this will probably resonate with you, Elena. The feeling that I got was. one hand, it's kind of like you're moving from like a small school to like a, a university or a college where all of a sudden there's a ton of other stuff that's going on with hundreds of people in each class, but they're not part of your class. [00:11:52] So, so you, you know, um, at, at big companies, you don't meet everyone. You actually don't even meet everyone in your, in your, on [00:12:00] like the marketing team, which is like a really weird thing. Uh, coming from maybe knowing everybody in the company, I. Uh, so that's like a very weird feeling. The, the, the comparable feeling that I found was it, it was like going to college or university. [00:12:12] Um, the other thing that, that I, I found was that you quickly realize you don't have all the information. There's so much that's happening that you don't know. So it makes decision making harder. Like, for example, which tools do you need or which tools do we get rid of? You know, you're used to. [00:12:32] Understanding your use cases and your needs, but now, like you, you're now, you're, you're stuck. You're like forced to pick a tool that serves needs that aren't yours, that are somebody else's. So it becomes a very different, uh, conversation. And does that resonate with you, Elena? Um, just similar experience kind of. [00:12:51] Elena: Yes, of course, and, and I think there are, I would add. I think I like your analogy of going from one school to another. I'd probably say it's [00:13:00] probably going from, um, Montessori like school to a regular school where it's not. Uh, they're just different schools. They teach you. Uh, you know, I think the level of education is probably quite the same, but the way they, the way you are taught is quite different. [00:13:18] So I think that's how it compare, like large corporate versus a startup. Um, when it comes to some of these tools and connectivity and things that you build there, um, and both of them have the right to exist is just when this. Meeting happens, uh, there is a lot of, um, leveling, um, that needs to happen. I think, um, again, in our case it's, it's my personal experience I think was more around, um, and again, being in charge of the, all the, a lot of the marketing, um, ups, uh, side of things. [00:13:58] I think it came to [00:14:00] the point where. Uh, people were just like, who's this Selena, and why is she doing all these things? Right? Like, I think it, there just comes the moment where, where you understand, like you are knowing every single person at this point on multiple teams, and you have to understand like, okay, well is it still worth it or do we just. [00:14:22] You know, embrace and comply and actually like learn something new about the tools that exist. And maybe they're like a benefit for us now. And I think in some cases we found that to be true. I. [00:14:36] Darrell: you, did you also, you know, after an acquisition and you've been through several, did you get the feeling like the larger company was coming in and sort of like telling you what to do or like messing up the great stuff that you've built? Or was it a different feeling? I. [00:14:52] Elena: Um, I think it was a little different feeling, right? I think, and, and I again have to say that super fortunate to [00:15:00] be, uh, to have been working for very much. Customer centric cus uh, companies where it's not about us or what I want or what somebody else wants, it's about what's the right, uh, experience and frictionless for the customer. [00:15:14] And a lot of times it's, it's, it's kind of like, okay, well. This is not gonna happen. But what else can we do to make sure that transition is as seamless as possible, that we are not, again, exposing some of these friction points to the end user or consumers. Um, so again, lengthy process. Frustrating on, on everyone's part, but at the same time, I think like when you work in an environment where it's collaborative. [00:15:45] Um, it kind of like makes things better and I, I mean, I think the fact that I'm still here is, [00:15:50] Darrell: Yeah. [00:15:51] Phil: Yeah, a testament to you enjoying it so far. I totally relate to like your initial experience of having to explain what certain [00:16:00] MarTech tools do to security people or to legal people. Who don't have time to sit with you for an hour and get into the ins and outs of what that specific tool in the stack is doing. [00:16:11] How, how much time did you spend like reading. Uh, data privacy policies and figuring out that whole side of customer data. Like you were probably maybe a bit closer to that at Currency Cloud because you are already in a regulated industry in FinTech and there's a lot of, you know, red tape and, and more consideration around. [00:16:31] The data that you're being sharing across different tools and stuff like that. But [00:16:35] Why Marketers Who Understand Customer Data Win More Internal Battles --- [00:16:35] Phil: when you got into Visa and there was a lot more conversations about, do we need this tool? What is that tool? And, and you're opening the box on some of that stuff, like did you have to level up your customer data literacy a little bit and, and get into some of those conversations? [00:16:50] Elena: Yes, definitely. Uh, I was lucky enough to have a Chief Data Privacy Officer at Currency Cloud [00:17:00] who was. Taking us through this acquisition. And again, the currency cloud was headquartered in the uk so uh, GDPR came out. And again, I think they usually are a lot stricter, um, than we are in the US when it comes to this. [00:17:16] So I think we were a lot more prepared than any average US startup would be for some of these conversations. But for me personally, one word of advice, if you are gonna be in these shoes. Really tried to learn what the, what the product does. I think I was, um, ahead of marketing at that time. So I didn't necessarily work in all these tools personally, day in and day out. [00:17:43] So I knew what they do at the high level, um, deeply enough to my knowledge, but I didn't really always know all the, uh, the nitty gritty, uh, of the tools. So, right, like when there are conversations happening. You know, does this still [00:18:00] collect customer data or use the data and what kind of data it's collecting and where it's storing and is it storing in the US or is it storing overseas? [00:18:07] I'm like, I don't know. You know, I mean, Insta, the hosting provider technically probably doesn't collect anything, but I don't know, maybe it's collecting ips. So I think, I think my, my knowledge level of some of these tools was. Very surface level as I found out when it comes to the, the, the data and privacy and things like this. [00:18:28] So I had to very quickly, um, upskill and read a lot. [00:18:34] Darrell: Do you think that that makes like a difference? Like, um, you know, being able to be in marketing with a product or service that you really understand, or like that you use as an end user? Or like, does that make a difference and is that that important to you? Or do you feel like, you know, even if the products are like more technical or maybe like you're not the user, like you can still, you know, do justice by the [00:19:00] customer? [00:19:00] Like how do you think about that? [00:19:01] Elena: Hmm. You see, I come from B2B world, so like I wouldn't be using the currency cloud [00:19:06] Phil: Gotcha. [00:19:07] Elena: Right. And Visa Direct is another embedded. Uh, payments infrastructure for businesses or merchants. So unless I had a business successful one, I probably wouldn't use any of those. I probably wouldn't use any of those tools. [00:19:23] Darrell: No, I just, I, it was just an interesting question that I've just been reflecting on. You know, I used to work at AWS and, you know, it's cloud computing, and I wasn't using those tools and actually, like, you know, and maybe this is unique to me, I actually found it difficult. I found it difficult to get into the mind of the user to try to understand them fully. [00:19:43] Um, but we, we had great things like customer research that that really helped out. But, um, I, I find my. For example, I find my work now a little bit more meaningful to be honest. Um, just because like, I understand how important it is to help people get jobs and it, it's like a little [00:20:00] bit more, um, tangible for me. [00:20:03] But hey, I, I, I just wanted to know if it was the [00:20:05] Elena: so So you feel that personal connection? I know what you mean. I think, I think if it's probably true for all B2B marketing. Uh. You know, there is this perception that you're selling into a company and, uh, to some heartless unknown entity that you are marketing towards. You know, like it's 'cause what is a merchant, what is a business? [00:20:26] What is a small, medium business like? SMB people say SMB, but what, what is it exactly? Doesn't really. Have anything that you could latch onto or, uh, introduce any, like feelings or, uh, things like that. So I think it's super, super important to really understand the, uh, the ideal customer profile and in terms of like, especially personas that you're going after who at this business? [00:20:52] Cares about using this product? Is it operations person? Is it a compliance person? Um, is it a person who is in charge [00:21:00] of delivering great products? I think for us it's probably like a head of product who, um. You know whose job it is to make sure that the product that they create, and again, product, I mean, you know, um, some sort of payment solutions like P two P remittances or tap to pay and things like this. [00:21:21] They're trying to create consumer future that's frictionless, that's easy, that's in their wallet. That gives them freedom and ability to. Send money to their parents or children overseas without delay instantly and things like that. Right. So you, you, it's important to feel what they feel almost to kind of like, um. [00:21:44] Be empathetic enough to their pain points and what the future that they're trying to build. Because in the end of the day, we're sort of like the sidekick behind the hero. The hero is the client who is creating something really, really cool that changes the world and we are enabling, [00:22:00] uh, them to get there. [00:22:01] And I think if you take that stance, um, I think the, the purpose and the mission and your personal contribution to things becomes a lot more meaningful. Rather than marketing to like some business there. [00:22:17] Darrell: Act me corporation. [00:22:19] Elena: Yeah, exactly. Because, because then it's, then it's, you are right, it's very intangible and it's very, it becomes boring very quickly. [00:22:27] Why More Martech Is Rarely Better --- [00:22:27] Phil: I feel like something that's really interesting from your experience is that acquisition with Visa and that whole tech stack migration that had to happen. [00:22:36] You talked about like the security and the legal conversations you had and the evaluation of customer data and privacy policies and all that stuff. Now you're at Visa and I'm, I'm guessing here, we kind of talked about this before we press record, but you're using a lot more legacy solutions. You are potentially less likely to be able to just like find a cool new startup that just launched an AI tool and [00:23:00] you can just like buy it tomorrow and just start using it. [00:23:03] There's a process to things and most of the time you're using legacy platforms, big enterprise stuff. Talk to us about that change of pace and, and how that's kind of impacted your work and how you were able to still stay happy in, in that role. 'cause you, you hung around and, and you're still at Visa. [00:23:19] Elena: Right. Um, yes, that's true. I think the larger companies tend to, again, gravitate towards more legacy solutions that are able to provide. You know, more security, uh, more reliability and things like that. And there again, there are certain security requirements that vendors have to meet when, where young vendors just unable to, to, to satisfy those things. [00:23:48] Um, and that's, that's normal. So I think transition, I think it was interesting because I, I, I went on a, on a journey on the curve from [00:24:00] like. Oh my God, what are we gonna do? We won't be able to do any demand like Jen. It's all dead. Right towards, towards understanding how much, first of all, those legacy tools are not bad. [00:24:17] Yeah, they're legacy. They're probably not as loud and they probably, you know, don't do a lot of cool, funky stuff. But they genuinely have a lot of the core functionality that you need. And also, I've realized that we had so many tools, but we haven't really used those tools to the a hundred percent of their capacity. [00:24:37] We would get a tool upon a tool, upon a tool and use like maybe, you know, 50, 40, 80% of each tool. Uh, when you're so tooled up, it's so hard to really like. 'cause, you know, to juice it out, uh, of those tools to the degree that we thought we are. So with not having a lot of choices, we've learned that, oh, actually, actually, you know, [00:25:00] everything that we were doing before we still can do. [00:25:03] It's not a huge big deal. You know? Uh, and it, as it turned out, we weren't doing like crazy. Impressive stuff. Um, you know, just tracking the basics and making sure it's all connected and stuff. Yeah, we lost some of the ability, I think, to, um, uh, collect data or store data or certain things, you know, um, but to my surprise, it didn't hinder our ability to deliver results, which means, again, I think. [00:25:35] You know that race to arm yourselves with more tools potentially could be a hype sometimes, you know. [00:25:44] Darrell: Yeah, it's, it's, you know, marketers ha like, are very like keeping up with the Joneses, like envious of their like colleagues and competitors. They say like, oh, they're using all this like intent data, multi-touch attribution, real time [00:26:00] customization stuff. But then like. [00:26:01] Phil: fomo. [00:26:02] Darrell: It's like fomo, but like barely anyone's actually really using it effectively and it just draw, like, to your point, it takes away from things that usually really work to begin with. [00:26:12] Um, so yeah. Good one. Good one. [00:26:15] The Real Upsides of Enterprise Marketing Nobody Talks About --- [00:26:15] Phil: Maybe chat about your, your current role right now, uh, Elena, like maybe some of the, the upsides of, of being part of a larger enterprise now compared to your previous startup experience. Like we hear a lot of the negatives of people like being an enterprise and it's slow and it's a grind. There's a lot of red tape, but it's a lot of upsides of being on the enterprise side too, like. [00:26:36] Funding and the access to resources and the quality of teammates and the ability to, you know, have promotions laterally and change teams. Maybe chat about that for a bit. [00:26:48] Elena: Sure. Um, I definitely think like what you touched on just now around the quality of, uh, talent and, uh, the depth of skill sets that [00:27:00] people have at a large organizations is. It's hard to match in a startup in a and I was there, I was that one person team, um, in some cases where, uh, I did analytics and insights and MarTech and paid media and Google search and everything right under the sun. [00:27:20] It meant I knew a lot of things, but, but not deeply enough. Um. It was the best I could do and it was good enough. But I think when you go to a larger enterprise, you get to meet really talented people and like really, really smart people who know things to such a degree that, like, I thought I knew how Google analytics works, right? [00:27:41] And they know it 10 times more. Having access to insights and analytics team who actually have like deep knowledge, uh, backed by data of, of like, um. How customers behave. Um, what cohorts of customers turn to [00:28:00] have higher LTV and why and things like that. I think that's the luxury that you don't have working for a startup. [00:28:07] Um, a lot of, a lot of our decisions in the startup used to be based on like, very well, well-educated guests or a hunch that you get versus here you kind of have the ability to really be so confident in what you put up. Um, and I probably rightfully so. If you're gonna work for three, four months on a marketing campaign, you, you probably need to be sure about what you're putting, uh, what you're putting out there. [00:28:34] Um, I think that's, that's one of the biggest benefits that I personally enjoy is the ability to tap into so much talent. Um. Yeah. And of course again, the, the budget and things, funding and things like this at a different scale, um, still strings attached. [00:28:56] Phil: Yeah. [00:28:56] Elena: I have to say, you know, marketing dollars are [00:29:00] never just free money. [00:29:01] You always have to prove, uh, ROI and results and, uh, you know, returns and objectives even, and things like that. But that's, that's the norm. I guess. It's not. [00:29:12] ​ [00:31:03] Phil: Maybe chat about that a little bit more. You said that performance marketers would agree with some of your earlier sentiments on everything we do needs to be tracked. Now you're in a bit more of an integrated marketing role. You're doing more branding, you're doing more awareness, but you still said just know that everything marketing has to be attached to an ROI. [00:31:25] What does that look like for, for your integrated marketing role right now? [00:31:28] Elena: Yeah, I think that's an interesting, uh, actual point I think. When you are at a startup, the, I think the, the runway that you have between the fundings, it defines the kind of the runway for the team and the objectives. And we used to be an O-K-O-K-R companies. Um, in the past way, OKRs were defined on quarterly basis. [00:31:53] So you have six week sprints. So I think the, the. Kind of like this, the, the [00:32:00] timeframe for you to be able to put something together, put it into the market, uh, make it work and then see it work and bring some sort of results is so short that in reality it's almost not how marketing works. You know? Um, and that's why a lot of times as again, and I was that person as a highly focused, performance based dimension marketer, I was. [00:32:25] If I don't see, you know, leads coming in next week, that's it. It's not working for us. Right. Like your, your capacity to have that appetite to burn cash, uh, for a long period of time or invest into something without much return is, is, is very small. I think at the larger company we are working on, um, yearly objectives. [00:32:47] So I have the whole year to prove something, right? Which means, uh, when it comes to brand activations and things like this, I can totally engage in things like, um, buying signage at large, [00:33:00] uh, conferences that I, that I have some sort of, uh, impression measure in general in terms of food traffic. But it's not. [00:33:07] Something that I could see online, how many, how many people actually walk by the sign or something like this, or do an airport takeover and things like that. But it means that I can measure our brand, uh, awareness unaided, uh, you know, this month. And then I can do take the same measure at the end of the year. [00:33:27] And knowing what I know about brand building, there should be an uplift. And that's my ROI, and that's my return on objective. Um. Which makes it possible to do really creative, uh, brand awareness, interesting things at a larger corporate company because you have that luxury of time, scale, and ability to even measure these things versus when we were smaller, um, a, we wouldn't do brand lived studies, [00:33:56] Darrell: Who, you know, I've always had like, and, and maybe you could like [00:34:00] help educate me. [00:34:01] Why Most Brand Awareness Surveys Miss the Mark --- [00:34:01] Darrell: I've always had a bone to pick with the unaided consideration. Um. And I, and let, let me know where I'm wrong. I think it's given by panels. Panels will respond either digitally or in a survey. Have you, like what brands would you pick in this category? [00:34:20] And like without any prompting, they should name yours. So that's like a unaided. So it's unaided. They consider your brand without you aiding them. Is that how it works? And like it. I, I wonder like, who are these people that we're asking? [00:34:37] Elena: This is a good question and I have to say it may be different between B2B and B2C. I have not been on B2C side of things, and I know that is a whole different world. I think I can only speak to the recent study that, uh, my team done has done, and we've partnered with a company that works very closely with [00:35:00] decision makers within FinTech. [00:35:02] And banking industry. And, um, we have requested not to do a digital survey, which means, you know, 10 minutes, somebody presses buttons. And they, were they looking at it? Well, not, I don't know. You know, we basically asked for an interview based, uh, surveys with somebody from the company called somebody at the bank and went through the questionnaire with them on the phone. [00:35:26] Where they have collected some of the, uh, quantitative data, but is well, but also qualitative, right? Very specific answers, you know, where people, and also they gauge like, were, were people confused about the question? You know, did we word it right? And things like that. So to me that was a more, um, real breath study, I think [00:35:48] Darrell: That sounds like a premium, to be honest. Is yeah, that like more of like. [00:35:52] Elena: size had to be smaller because of that, because obviously they can't call out, you know, thousands and thousands of people. But again, we are a niche solution [00:36:00] for a specific, um, industry. So it worked for us. It probably wouldn't work for some larger consumer brands. Um, I don't want anybody calling me and asking me some questions about brands [00:36:13] Darrell: I think the way you're, I think the way you're doing it, this sounds very viable. I [00:36:18] Elena: Yeah. [00:36:18] Darrell: but that was my, that's exact point. Like, how come no one calls me and asks me for my unaided consideration? Like, who are these people? So, but I think the way that you do it, where they're very targeted, you know, they're, they're actually prompting the people and making sure that it's not some sort of like. [00:36:35] You know, like, like trying to remove bias as much as possible. I, I, I, I definitely support that. Um, okay. Thanks for that info. I, it's good for me to know. [00:36:44] Why Startups That Ignore Brand Are Just Burning Cash --- [00:36:44] Phil: Knowing what you know today about branding and awareness, Elena, like if you, if you were to go back to startup world, would you still have that mentality of thinking of marketing as this direct response thing? We, it [00:37:00] hits certain number of leads. Like leads is all we care about, needs to be revenue. We see runway coming down the pipe. [00:37:05] Or because you have that knowledge now of, of being deep in that world. Do you think there is a world where you would be able to. Have a portfolio of bets in your marketing team at a startup where you do invest in like event stuff and branding stuff, and it's not all short term, quick wins, direct response type things. [00:37:25] Like has that shifted your thinking a bit? [00:37:28] Elena: A hundred percent for sure. I think I would. I think Brenda is everything. And I also do believe not, not thinking in this Sub-Zero um, way where it's either we do branding or we do dimension. There is an opportunity to do both, and not everything has to be expensive, um, but I think like startup leadership needs to be prepared to understand what branding is really about. [00:37:59] You see some great [00:38:00] startups and they probably invested very little money in brand awareness, quote unquote. That requires a proper PR company and campaigns and things like this. But they are founders, super vocal. They have a podcast speaking on conferences, right? Like I think branding can, brand building can take multiple shapes, uh, depending on the capacity and uh, an ability of the leadership team and the budget. [00:38:29] But it's definitely a must if a startup is not thinking of brand. It's a huge miss, I think. [00:38:35] Darrell: Totally. I, I, I think that when it comes to smaller companies, it's heavily dependent on the team that you have in-house. Like are they creative? Are they like mission driven? You know, do they, they, do they have the like, sort of, you know, capabilities to convince people that don't know about you that this is a good brand worth, worth, worth trying out? [00:38:59] I think that [00:39:00] as, as companies get really bigger. Brand almost takes on something where, you know, we try to measure it with like unaided consideration, but the value of brand is like, almost like hard to quantify because, you know, if I, if, if we all go into a room and say like, okay, we need to buy a CRM, everybody knows, like everybody immediately knows like two or three companies without even searching. [00:39:29] You know, and, and it's like that for most categories. So like, how much, how valuable is that brand? The other thing that I just saw on LinkedIn one time, which was super cool, was like the comparison between AEs at big brand companies to AEs at startup companies, and like, it just went to show that the brand did so much of the selling for the ae. [00:39:51] So their, their checks were just high all the time. And when they, when they went to a startup, their checks like shrunk. Because you don't have that brand in [00:40:00] the room, so to speak, to like, sell for you. And that's, that's brand and that's like marketing. And um, you know, uh, this is the last thing I'll say. [00:40:08] This is why like, it's so hard to measure marketing, you know what I mean? Like, this is why marketing measurement is such a contentious topic because you cannot, it's so, it's so difficult to quantify what value that brings. It's so much, it's very valuable. [00:40:23] Elena: It is, uh, but it's, it is difficult to quantify in a way that is, uh, easily fits in a PowerPoint slide, right? And, and, and easily traceable to, well, if I give you this. 50 K then in X amount of time, it's gonna be something like this, right? I think it's, it's probably, um, not as simple, but I usually talk about, you know, I usually think about it in a way of, if you are a startup and you are asking money, or you're raising money, or you're investing money for [00:41:00] Dimension, you're basically paying. [00:41:01] For contact information. You're paying for people's eyeballs on your side, your people for at. You're paying for attention constantly, and this is what your investment is all about. But how much, how much time are you gonna be paying for all of this? How mu how much longer, right? You know, you at some point. [00:41:20] You should, if you start building brand from day one, as you paying for the eyeballs and contact information, your brand will kick in and you will start paying less for the same amount of eyeballs, for the same amount of contact information and things like this. The, the, the, the scale will tip, but if you never consider brand that you'll just gonna continually burn through more and more cash and ask for more and more money for growth. [00:41:44] And you're never gonna, like, I don't see how profitability is in the future if you don't think of brand. [00:41:50] Phil: Yeah, so true. [00:41:52] What Integrated Marketing Actually Means When You're Doing It Right --- [00:41:52] Phil: Talk to us about integrated marketing, Elena. Like I feel like the term itself gets thrown around a lot in our industry. I. It often means a bunch of different things to different people. As the global head of integrated marketing at Visa directly, how do you specifically define this role? If you were to create another job posting very similar to what you're doing, what are the core functions and responsibilities that fall under integrated marketing umbrella that might surprise maybe some of the marketing operations pros who you know, haven't worked in this specific domain? [00:42:24] Do you see a lot of overlap? [00:42:27] Elena: I could speak to my own personal experience. I haven't had a lot of integrated marketing roles in the past, but if I had to describe my role in one sentence, it would be, um. Probably putting out integrated marketing campaigns and integrating means multi-channel, uh, marketing campaigns that are globally consistent and locally relevant as a global role. [00:42:52] They have to, um, again, be on brand and that gives that global consistency, but at the same time, they have to be [00:43:00] relevant to all five regions that we're looking after. Um, it's easily said than done. Of course. Uh, it means we do have a lot of cross-functional work that we have to do. Um, I think that's beyond the core, um, responsibilities that sit in my team of like digital marketing, uh, paid media, marketing ops, uh, creative and design and copywriting. [00:43:27] And events. I think events is probably something that a lot of times is being overlooked, especially in B2B side of things. There's usually events team and events person that doing events separately. I consider events as one of the channels where we activate the campaigns and uh, and brand awareness initiatives. [00:43:45] Um, but I think the biggest interesting and maybe surprising challenge of integrated marketing team is the. Cross-functional aspect of it. You know, you don't do everything by yourself. You know, whatever you do, you do with [00:44:00] your local partners and field marketing teams or media buying teams. There's, there's just, you know, it's a, it's a kind of like the ability to, um, be a chef in the kitchen with a lot of cooks, but you still manage to cook the something that's good. [00:44:19] Phil: W walk us through like a meal in that kitchen that you had to, you know, orchestrate from scratch. Are you the person coming up with the recipe and someone else is deciding the ingredients? And then it gets handed off into a bunch of other people. You're managing the projects, like walk us through maybe a, a, a quick example there. [00:44:37] Elena: So here's an example of, uh, we are preparing for the second wave of our brand awareness campaign at the moment that will be launching towards the end of spring, beginning of summer. So, um, we decide the timeline. Um, we started working with an agency on the creative concept of what that should look like and feel like. [00:44:59] [00:45:00] Um, and from the very beginning, even from the moment you start drafting the brief. You have to, I have to involve, um, all five regions to feed into this, right? And to make sure, you know, are these audiences and personas we are targeting relevant to, um, Latin America or, you know, um, Asian market. Uh, and they all have their own ideas. [00:45:26] Usually as to what it would look like. Then we're gonna get a creative concept. They'll get a chance to take a look at it and feed into it. Usually I think, and this is like what the meal looks, right, like right. If the menu is done right and the recipes are right, usually, um, it's not a debate about opinions or I like this, or I don't like that. [00:45:49] It's usually, is this on brief? Is this something we all agreed upon that we want to do? Or is that not it? Um, and I think that's why the [00:46:00] prep sometimes take longer than the, than the meal itself. Because, because it's that important 'cause. And then otherwise, um, you know, you don't want to get into the opinions sharing or opinions battle conversation. [00:46:14] We have opportunity to test things as well, so we come with insights and backgrounds so regions doesn't feel like, um, you know. Their opinion is as good as anyone's opinion. You know, is it good or not good? Um, and then again, it's all about measurement success and, uh, proving that it is working and bringing them insights on how it's working. [00:46:38] Um, so again, working with regions, working with events team and logistics team, and working with, uh, global brand team as well to make sure it's, you know, we are Visa direct where brand within. We are almost an entity within a larger Visa brand, it has to still comply. So, like I said, it's, it's a big bustling kitchen behind [00:47:00] what people see, you know, coming out, uh, on the restaurant floor. [00:47:05] Darrell: And do you find that like, you know, because there's, there's, there's you, there's like different ways to call this, right? [00:47:12] Great Marketers Lead by Influence, Not Org Charts --- [00:47:12] Darrell: You can call it collaborative, but you could also call it. Dependency. Like, I need, I need to work with all these other people. It's not just I want to, I have to. So like, do you find that restrictive? [00:47:24] Like do the people on your team, you know, sometimes feel like they're being a little bit slowed down, or do they enjoy the multifaceted aspect of it? Like how do you think about that? [00:47:34] Elena: You know, I think if, if you ask this question from my team, depending on the day, they may answer it either, either way to be honest. But on the end of the day, uh, the regional team or you know, corporate events team or corporate brand team, they all have the jobs as well as. I have my job, and at the end of the day, they're there. [00:47:57] I'm here to enable the [00:48:00] regions, uh, global corporate teams are here to enable us to do the work. So you can call it dependencies, but at the same, but at the same time, like, I have never traveled to Singapore, or I've never been to Asia, you know? Um, or, or Samia for that matter actually. You know, so I think. [00:48:21] If I put together a campaign on working with an agency or my team and the ideas that they're proposing and we are proving, and if, again, yes, it's a dependency to go and, and talk to region and flesh it by them and make sure that they're aware and they understand it. But if I don't do that. And I put something out that people don't understand and it doesn't well, or it doesn't translate in different languages, then I'm doing my job poorly. [00:48:48] So in the, yes, it's a dependency, but at the same time I really need them to do my job well. I think I'm trying to look at it that way, um, because otherwise it's, you know, you could just [00:49:00] do horrible [00:49:01] Darrell: No, totally. Like I, so I, I, I, you know, that resonates with me. Depending on the day, I feel either constricted or like I feel great. One [00:49:10] Phil: depending on this certain teammate, I'm stuck, uh, collaborating with. [00:49:14] Elena: Depending on the thing too. You know, and depending on your day, sometimes you [00:49:18] Darrell: oh, I know if it's legal [00:49:19] Elena: can't we just, why can't we just do it already? Exactly. There's always something. Um, but I can, I think the bigger picture is there and you just have to remember [00:49:31] Darrell: So one thing that I found that helps is that, uh, when you have like all of these different partners that you have to work with, um, I reframed it as like, this is like leadership. Uh, this is what leadership looks like. And that gets like a very bad rap sometimes, like you say, like, oh, you don't have to have a. People say you don't have to manage people to be a leader. And that that's been said so much, so much. It's a little bit trite now, but [00:50:00] when you start to work with a lot of groups, you really do that. That saying really does matter because without strong leadership from either a central, uh, team or the, the. [00:50:11] Project leader, things don't get off the ground. It, it's so easy to fall apart when you have so many different people working together. And, um, I found that, that I find fulfillment in the fact that I can lead people that don't report to me and, and get big things done. That couldn't have happened with even like just my team alone. [00:50:32] Elena: Now that's a hundred percent on point I think. A lot of younger, um, up and coming management. They, they wanna be a manager. I wanna have my own team. But at the same time, I think the true leadership to your point, comes from how much can you influence your to people, to your right and to your left. And if you can't do that, then that's, that's not. [00:50:56] Like true leadership, [00:50:57] Darrell: a hundred [00:50:58] Elena: You're not able to move, move [00:51:00] things along it. And again, it all has to do with communication, being able to, um, bring people on the journey. I think it's all about bringing people on the journey. Like, I know it sounds so cliche, but, but if you are not thinking of bringing people on the journey, they don't know right? [00:51:15] Your day to day and what you want and, and things like that. Um, so I think. Learning. And again, I think it's probably one, number one advice to anybody who's, uh, earlier in their career learn how to work cross-functionally really well. You don't need people reporting to you, Darryl, to what you, you said, to be able to achieve great things, um, and, you know, and prove yourself. [00:51:41] So to say, uh, to be able to bring impact without having a team. You know, try that, and that is gonna be [00:51:49] Darrell: I, yeah, some of your favorite, like this is, and you know, maybe Phil and Elena, you'll, you'll notice this. Some of my favorite people that I've admired usually were like, not even team leaders. They [00:52:00] were just really smart people that knew how to work across the org and then just get shit done. And they were like so smart and you're just like, whoa. [00:52:08] Like, that's what leadership looks like without a team. And you, you definitely. It's possible and you can do it. [00:52:14] Elena: Yeah. And that's probably one transition from. A startup to enterprise is around, like your work scope changes, right? Even people who have the same job title at one company, they move to another company and the job title is the same, but the scope of work work is different. Uh, what worked. It probably sometimes reverse of the example that you gave of AEs in a large company were just like booking deals because the brand was selling it and we went to startup and they struggled to, uh, to get that same business going. [00:52:51] It could work the other way around where someone was really, really good at their job at a startup. But now coming to Enterprise, you are required to [00:53:00] do more at a different level. And if you can't. Kind of uplift without, um, you know, a pat in the back or a medal or promotion. It becomes very difficult to keep up with the culture. [00:53:13] Phil: Hmm. What? [00:53:15] How to Actually Lead Cross-Functional Work Without Pulling Your Hair Out --- [00:53:15] Phil: What are some of your practical tips or strategies that have helped you, especially at Visa, to bring those people? With you along you with that journey, like collaborating, making friends, like building those relationships. Like I wish I had that piece of advice that you just gave to folks earlier in my career where you were just like, don't just keep your head down and do your work. [00:53:37] Like you need to bring people along that journey. You need to make those friends, those allies. Like what advice, what tips do you have for, for actually doing that? [00:53:48] Elena: I think, and I know it probably sounds cringey to somebody who is really young, but you have to talk to people like not through Slack. [00:54:00] Um, I think this is, this is very important because I, I always tell my team, like, this person who's telling you a no or sending you this weird email, didn't wake up this morning and said, you know what? [00:54:15] I'm gonna ruin your day today. You know, they're just trying to do their job too. A most likely, they probably did not have understand, did not even understand what you want from them. They don't know you. They've never seen you. They've never spoken to you. You are asking them to do something. They're probably like, yeah, what? [00:54:30] I don't, I don't even know what, what you're talking about. Schedule a call. You know, have a 15 minute call with the person. See them face to face. Explain to them what you're trying to achieve. Maybe ask for advice. Maybe they're not the right person. Maybe they could send you to. To the right person to, to help you out or to give you the proper advice? [00:54:48] I think, I think, um, the human connection and the ability to communicate with people and sometimes cut through that, you know, 50 email chains or [00:55:00] like three days of slacking, just pick up the phone. You know, I think, I think this is very underrated skill for a marketer when you should just like quit drafting emails with AI and just pick up the phone and call somebody and that's it. [00:55:14] Sometimes that is the fastest, easiest way to solve things. [00:55:18] Phil: Yeah, such great advice. I find people, myself included, are always nicer. In person or on a call, like especially when you see their face, it's, it's so much easier to just like be a bit more rough in your answer and like say, no, we're not doing this. But then when you're on a call and you just like chatted about the weather and like, how are things going? [00:55:36] And then they ask you that same question that you just said no to, like, you're just like a bit more open to, to being friendlier I guess. So yeah, it's, it. It's good advice. Sometimes easier said than done is my myself. Like I always default to asynchronous communications, especially when I was in a bigger team. [00:55:53] Like those people are busy. I don't wanna take up like a 50 minute of their time because if I do that every single time, and the 10 other people do that [00:56:00] every single time, like we're just in synchronous meetings the whole freaking day and I've got a list of shit to do. And so it's hard to balance that. [00:56:06] Like I want to be asynchronous and be productive and not like take over someone's. Calendar and synchronous meetings. But when it comes to like building those relationships, it's, it's always easier to do that with like that human connection that doesn't exist in the written form. [00:56:23] Elena: No, it doesn't. And I think another important skill that anybody could master is using the meetings as the forums, uh, effectively, you know, uh, if you're sitting in a meeting and you're just nodding your head or you're bored to death. You clearly shouldn't be there, or you're not using this time wisely. [00:56:44] You know? 'cause how many times did we all sit in a meeting and everybody's like, yep, yep, sure, sure. And then you walk out of the room and you still have like 10 questions that you didn't ask because either somebody kept talking about something unrelated on a tangent and you didn't feel like interrupting. [00:56:58] Or then you, you [00:57:00] got so bored that you completely dropped off in your mind and you decided, you know what? I'll ask it later. Like be purposeful. I think with time to your point. Exactly. Not everything needs to be a one-to-one. It means whenever you do have team meetings and things like this, make sure you are using them. [00:57:18] Um, I'm telling my team all the time, if you, if you are in a meeting and you are not giving value or receiving value, then you shouldn't be there. You know, it's either meeting provides value to you because you're learning something, or you are giving value because you need it there, and people need to understand something that you can give them. [00:57:38] If none of this is true, then why are you there? You are wasting your time. So it's [00:57:45] Darrell: Yep. [00:57:47] Elena: that's it. [00:57:48] Phil: Yeah. Such great advice. [00:57:50] Darrell: so I think we're at our last question and uh, so [00:57:53] The Real Secret to Balance When You’re Juggling Leadership, Parenthood, and Life --- [00:57:53] Darrell: Elena, you're an enterprise marketing leader, but you're also a mom and an avid traveler. One question we ask everyone on the show is. How do you remain happy and successful in your career? How do you find balance between all the things you're working on while still staying happy? [00:58:10] Elena: Who said I'm happy. I'm just kidding. You can cut this out. [00:58:14] Darrell: You, you don't have to answer that. [00:58:16] Elena: Just [00:58:18] Darrell: I'm miserable. [00:58:20] Elena: kidding. [00:58:22] Darrell: I don't. [00:58:24] Elena: there you go. No. Okay. I'll answer normal way. Um, how do I stay happy while doing all these things? I think, um, I. It's a good question. How does anybody stay happy? Um, I think not taking yourself or life too seriously. It's probably a very good help. I think, you know, there is a job that you do and I find a huge amount of fulfillment and satisfaction out of what I do and who I work with and things like that. [00:58:59] But there is [00:59:00] always. Stress and problems and things and stuff, you know, and it's a part of the job. And as the, the more, the more, you know, higher position you hold, the, the more stress you have potential or different kinds of stress. So I think in the end of the day, you need to put things in the grand scheme of things. [00:59:19] Like, this is the job and you do the best you do. And, you know, there's always stress and problems. Just like, again, in, in, at home. You know, I'm a homeowner. There's always something breakings. The pipes throws, you know, ants came and spring. There's, there's always something that you deal with on constant basis. [00:59:41] It's just a part of life and it's all like, you know, a, a part of a part of it. And you can't get yourself get too, you know. Serious, too stressed about things? I think, I think it's all about managing stress for me. I think just keep it balanced, you know, keep things in perspective. [01:00:00] Um, whatever happens, it's not the end of the world. [01:00:05] Phil: Yeah, you still have a home, still have, uh, a daughter to take care of, and she doesn't care what happened at work and how stressed you are. Like she's gonna tell you about her day anyways, whether you want to hear it or not. [01:00:17] Elena: Yeah. And even at work, I mean, some projects are great, some projects are. Getting killed. And you know what? Maybe for the right reasons and that's fine too. Let's just move on. [01:00:29] Phil: Awesome. Really appreciate your time Elena. This is super fun. Uh, thanks so much for joining us. [01:00:33] Elena: Thank you guys for having me. Enjoyed the chat.