Episode 4 — Dr. Richard Angelo
Guest
Dr. Richard (Rick) Angelo — Arthroscopic surgeon based in Seattle; former President of the Arthroscopic Association of North America (AANA). Holds a PhD in proficiency-based progression training.
Host
Tony (relationship with Rick spans ~15 years, originating from a chance meeting at a conference in Sweden)
Episode Overview
A deep-dive conversation on the fundamental failures of traditional surgical training and how proficiency-based progression (PBP) training offers a scientifically rigorous alternative. The discussion centres on the landmark Copernicus Study — the first study in medicine to use proficiency demonstration as an outcome measure.
Key Topics Covered
1. Limitations of the Traditional Apprenticeship Model
- The "see one, do one, teach one" model lacks objective assessment
- Despite decades of training and significant investment, AANA could not verify whether skill acquisition was actually occurring
- Complication rates and suboptimal outcomes weren't improving with existing training efforts
2. The Founding Question
- Rick, during his time in the AANA presidential line, asked: "Is there a better way to train surgical skills?"
- This led to engagement with Tony's work on proficiency-based progression training
3. Proficiency-Based Progression (PBP) Training — Core Principles
- Define a clear target: what does quality performance of a procedure look like?
- Deconstruct tasks into discrete, trainable components
- Develop objective, binary metrics (did it occur or not?) rather than global rating scales
- Establish inter-rater reliability between assessors
- Trainees must demonstrate a benchmark at each stage before progressing (including cognitive pre-course material — 83% threshold)
- Errors and deviations from optimal performance are trained explicitly — not just steps
4. The Bankart Repair — Why It Was Chosen
- Common procedure with a broad, transferable skill set
- Suited to task deconstruction and partial task simulation
- Chosen by Rick and endorsed by the AANA core group
5. Curriculum Before Simulation
- A critical insight: the curriculum and metrics must be developed first; simulation is chosen to match, not the other way around
- Contrast with the wider medical field's focus on "eye candy" VR simulators that lack meaningful metrics
- The FAST model (Fundamentals of Arthroscopic Surgery Training) was developed with Rob Pedowitz for knot tying — a low-cost, highly accurate partial task trainer
- Even a simple conical nail punch from a garage became an effective tool for measuring loop elongation
6. The Copernicus Study — Design & Results
Three study groups:
- Group A (Traditional): Lectures, open-access knot-tying lab, cadaver session — standard AANA approach
- Group B (Simulator only): Access to the simulator without the PBP curriculum or metrics
- Group C (PBP): Proficiency benchmarks at every stage — cognitive, knot-tying, and shoulder model
Results:
- Group B was 1.4× more likely than Group A to meet the benchmark (marginal)
- Group C participants (assigned to PBP, even without passing all benchmarks): 5.5× more likely than Group A
- Group C participants who met all proficiency benchmarks: 7.5× more likely to meet the final benchmark
- Error reduction: ~56% decrease in Bankart errors; ~58% for rotator cuff repair
- In one follow-up weekend cohort of 18 trainees: 89% demonstrated proficiency in Bankart repair; 83% in rotator cuff repair
7. Key Finding: The Deficiency is in Training, Not Trainees
- Pre-study concern about a "weed-out process" proved unfounded
- With quality training, almost all trainees can master the required skills
- Referenced Frank Lewis (former Chair, American Board of Surgery) sharing the same observation
- Stefano Pogliani's study demonstrated near-universal proficiency is achievable
8. The Role of Errors in Surgical Training
- Distinguishing novice from expert performers is best predicted by error enactment, not step completion
- Each deviation from optimal performance creates a cascade risk — even if consequences aren't immediate
- Upcoming study expected to show errors are the best predictor of patient outcomes
9. Broader Applicability to Procedure-Based Medicine
- Principles apply across disciplines — cardiology, robotics, and beyond
- Contrast drawn with VR simulator manufacturers at the European Heart Rhythm Association Conference (Paris), where most simulations had no metrics
- Chicken tissue models used successfully in robotic surgery training at €5 per chicken — effective without being high-tech
10. Credentialing and Quality Assurance
- Discussion of whether PBP methodology could or should underpin credentialing for new procedures or devices
- Device failures in the field often attributable to inadequate clinician preparation, not device defects
- Practical challenges for societal credentialing (procedure selection, remediation pathways, cost of metric development, legal defensibility)
- European Commission is moving toward micro-credentials for technical skills — awarded by universities, recognised across EU member states
- Both speakers agree: medicine must develop objective, procedure-based performance assessment for the public good
- Analogy: demonstrating more skill is required to get a driver's licence than is currently required of surgeons in terms of objective performance assessment
What is Show Me The Evidence?
Most training is sold on confidence. Show Me The Evidence is built on data.
In every episode we take a single study, clinical trial, or systematic review and work through what it found, how it was designed, and what it means for the way we teach and assess skill. We focus on metrics-based training and proficiency-based progression, the approach that asks learners to demonstrate measurable competence before moving on, and we trace its results across surgical, medical, and professional education.
This is a podcast for learning professionals and medical educators who want more than opinion. Expect plain-language breakdowns of the research, honest discussion of what the evidence does and does not support, and conversations with the people behind the studies.
If you make decisions about how people are trained, we think you deserve to see the evidence first.