[00:00:07.12 - 00:00:10.05] Good morning, good afternoon and good evening.
[00:00:10.10 - 00:00:13.14] Welcome to Rethink Culture, the podcast that shines a spotlight on business
[00:00:13.14 - 00:00:15.22] leaders who are creating intentional cultures.
[00:00:16.12 - 00:00:18.23] My name is Andreas Konstantinou and I'm your host.
[00:00:18.23 - 00:00:23.12] I'm the founder of Rethink Culture, a company that aims to help create 1 million
[00:00:23.12 - 00:00:26.09] healthier, more fulfilling work cultures.
[00:00:26.22 - 00:00:29.09] Today I have the pleasure of welcoming Sandy Hall.
[00:00:29.09 - 00:00:34.00] She's the owner of re/cognition, a leadership development consultancy and a
[00:00:34.00 - 00:00:36.02] resilience specialist.
[00:00:36.12 - 00:00:42.12] She ran the best workplace program at IBM for New Zealand for a few years.
[00:00:42.18 - 00:00:46.18] She also has a passion for neuroscience and how it intersects with leadership.
[00:00:46.18 - 00:00:48.11] She's going to tell us more about it.
[00:00:49.04 - 00:00:53.19] And as she tells me, she's excited as she's about to go for a three day back
[00:00:53.19 - 00:00:59.23] country walk in the rainforest of the South tip of New Zealand and swim with
[00:00:59.23 - 00:01:01.05] Hector dolphins.
[00:01:01.05 - 00:01:03.13] So that is an amazing intro.
[00:01:04.02 - 00:01:07.00] Very welcome to the Rethink Culture Podcast, Sandy.
[00:01:07.13 - 00:01:08.13] Thank you so much.
[00:01:08.13 - 00:01:12.01] I'm really honored and humbled to be here today, Andreas.
[00:01:12.01 - 00:01:14.05] And excited to talk to you.
[00:01:14.05 - 00:01:18.01] You're so easy to talk to about these things because we have mutual passions.
[00:01:18.01 - 00:01:18.22] Indeed.
[00:01:19.09 - 00:01:23.09] And, uh, these are culture and neuroscience among other things.
[00:01:23.09 - 00:01:26.23] And I also love walking, uh, and hiking.
[00:01:27.22 - 00:01:32.00] So starting, starting with, uh, where should we start?
[00:01:32.04 - 00:01:35.17] Starting with, um, culture.
[00:01:35.17 - 00:01:37.16] When did that become important to you?
[00:01:37.21 - 00:01:42.18] I think I've been observing people, leaders, culture all my life if I'm really
[00:01:42.18 - 00:01:43.18] honest with you.
[00:01:43.18 - 00:01:49.02] I remember as a small child my parents were very religious and I grew up in the
[00:01:49.02 - 00:01:54.19] church and I used to watch these preachers and watch them preach from the pulpit on a
[00:01:54.19 - 00:02:00.01] Sunday and be really fascinated by the cultures that they were forming and the
[00:02:00.01 - 00:02:03.02] churches that they were building.
[00:02:03.10 - 00:02:07.03] And my father and I would, at the end of...
[00:02:08.05 - 00:02:13.12] our lunch, which we always had together on a Sunday, my brothers would be bored by
[00:02:13.12 - 00:02:17.23] this, my mum would have drifted away from the table, we would be dissecting
[00:02:17.23 - 00:02:21.18] everything the pastor had said and everything that was going on in that
[00:02:21.18 - 00:02:23.03] church culture.
[00:02:23.08 - 00:02:29.03] And I think that sparked my interest in leadership development and culture and
[00:02:29.03 - 00:02:34.05] accountability and ownership right back from a very early age.
[00:02:34.15 - 00:02:35.14] That's so interesting.
[00:02:35.14 - 00:02:40.07] How were these cultures different to the cultures you work with today?
[00:02:41.00 - 00:02:42.00] The church cultures.
[00:02:42.00 - 00:02:44.14] Quite different, I have to say.
[00:02:44.14 - 00:02:49.21] And the church turned out to be a little bit disappointing in my experience.
[00:02:50.02 - 00:02:54.10] It was a Pentecostal movement that I was brought up in and my parents didn't stay
[00:02:54.10 - 00:02:59.12] in that movement over time because what happened is due to lack of accountability
[00:03:00.05 - 00:03:04.19] those leaders who became worshipped by their congregations, the good ones that
[00:03:04.19 - 00:03:13.10] were good at being impressive and engaging people, didn't always do so for the right reasons.
[00:03:13.10 - 00:03:19.16] And so I just became fascinated by humanity and who steps up to be a leader.
[00:03:19.16 - 00:03:25.13] And back then in my childhood, it was a tall male who would be able to step up as
[00:03:25.13 - 00:03:30.04] a leader inside that culture. And they didn't get a lot
[00:03:30.04 - 00:03:36.18] of really good support so as a result they became vulnerable to their own inherent weaknesses.
[00:03:36.20 - 00:03:41.14] Did you take any lessons for how a culture should be or should not be from those early days?
[00:03:41.14 - 00:03:43.00] A lot of lessons.
[00:03:43.00 - 00:03:44.16] I learned so much.
[00:03:44.16 - 00:03:49.13] I think that the biggest lesson is my mantra that we have as one of our core
[00:03:49.13 - 00:03:51.11] values at re/cognition.
[00:03:51.11 - 00:03:53.13] We believe that no leader should lead alone.
[00:03:53.13 - 00:03:58.14] That they need a peer group, they need people they can share with, they need to
[00:03:58.14 - 00:04:01.22] be continually learning and developing, and they need support.
[00:04:01.22 - 00:04:03.07] They need a support network.
[00:04:03.12 - 00:04:08.07] It's very easy for a leader to get to a point in their career where they know
[00:04:08.07 - 00:04:12.12] themselves well, they can be self-aware, they can develop the skills and be a
[00:04:12.12 - 00:04:16.05] passionate and vital leader inside an organisation.
[00:04:16.08 - 00:04:20.13] But unless they've got a safe space to unpackage things and grow and develop and
[00:04:20.13 - 00:04:25.23] learn how to handle tricky situations, they can very easy forget how the world
[00:04:25.23 - 00:04:27.12] perceives them.
[00:04:28.00 - 00:04:31.04] And that can be a really difficult place for a leader to get to.
[00:04:31.14 - 00:04:37.04] So that's a very interesting thought because leadership development, which you
[00:04:37.04 - 00:04:40.17] specialize in is usually on point.
[00:04:40.17 - 00:04:46.11] Like you, you intervene, you walk in a few months later, maybe you walk out, but that
[00:04:46.11 - 00:04:49.03] safe space needs to persist, right?
[00:04:49.03 - 00:04:54.08] It needs to be people, friends, psychological support, professional support.
[00:04:54.08 - 00:05:00.03] Mentors, coaches. Mentors. Feedback mechanisms.
[00:05:00.03 - 00:05:05.10] And not all of those leaders I was exposed to as a child were bad people and became corrupt.
[00:05:05.10 - 00:05:09.11] Many, many of them stayed good and quality leaders.
[00:05:09.11 - 00:05:14.02] But there were a lot that fell by the wayside because they didn't have decent
[00:05:14.02 - 00:05:18.05] systems of support and they had no way of getting realistic, meaningful feedback.
[00:05:18.15 - 00:05:27.07] Some of the leaders that had the safe space or this network of support, how were
[00:05:27.07 - 00:05:28.05] they supported?
[00:05:28.05 - 00:05:31.09] Like what structures or what people did they have around them?
[00:05:31.09 - 00:05:34.13] Governance structures, boards, mentors, coaches.
[00:05:34.13 - 00:05:36.12] Hmm.
[00:05:36.12 - 00:05:41.01] And were they intentional about that or was it the environment they found
[00:05:41.01 - 00:05:42.01] themselves in?
[00:05:42.09 - 00:05:43.23] They were intentional about it.
[00:05:43.23 - 00:05:47.17] Most of those church structures, going back to what I observed as a child, had
[00:05:47.17 - 00:05:49.07] something that was there.
[00:05:50.03 - 00:05:54.19] But if they didn't take that, and the feedback wasn't meaningful, because
[00:05:54.19 - 00:05:59.05] obviously it was a variable quality when we're talking about a religious feedback
[00:05:59.05 - 00:06:04.14] mechanism, and it could be that those governance structures weren't effective,
[00:06:04.18 - 00:06:07.05] and you see similar things inside businesses.
[00:06:07.05 - 00:06:08.15] There's a lot of parallels.
[00:06:08.15 - 00:06:17.13] So today's leaders that you work with, what are some of the examples you have
[00:06:17.13 - 00:06:26.04] seen where, let's take an extreme example, someone that was resistant to being told
[00:06:26.04 - 00:06:34.16] what to do, to be shown their blind spots, but then came to see a bigger picture
[00:06:34.22 - 00:06:37.05] after an intervention?
[00:06:37.10 - 00:06:41.21] Have you seen people change as a result of leadership development?
[00:06:41.21 - 00:06:48.19] Yeah, I got to witness this in an organization that I sat on the executive
[00:06:48.19 - 00:06:53.19] team of when I was the head of people and culture at Leading Edge, when we became a
[00:06:53.19 - 00:06:55.06] best workplace finalist.
[00:06:55.06 - 00:07:00.22] And initially when we started on that program of work, I had a CEO who was
[00:07:01.16 - 00:07:06.15] someone who had the ability to coach and bring out the best in his leaders.
[00:07:06.19 - 00:07:11.10] He was strength-based without being even conscious of it, but he could also take on
[00:07:11.10 - 00:07:14.06] board feedback and he was good at giving feedback.
[00:07:14.11 - 00:07:19.05] But some of his leaders paid lip service to the Best Workplaces program and they
[00:07:19.05 - 00:07:22.23] didn't see the value of it, but they knew they were on the journey and they had to
[00:07:22.23 - 00:07:24.11] be committed to it.
[00:07:24.11 - 00:07:28.03] And so they did and they were cynical, understandably cynical.
[00:07:28.13 - 00:07:33.10] But as we started to grow, and it did take five years, it wasn't a quick process, but
[00:07:33.10 - 00:07:36.11] as we started to shift the culture,
[00:07:36.18 - 00:07:41.17] people, run focus groups, get feedback, build mechanisms and when we took on board
[00:07:41.17 - 00:07:45.17] their feedback and we started to make the changes that we needed to make to build
[00:07:45.17 - 00:07:51.02] this really engaged culture, those leaders started to come on board and they started
[00:07:51.02 - 00:07:56.19] to recognize that this was a really good tool for them to get meaningful feedback
[00:07:56.23 - 00:07:58.22] that was enormous.
[00:07:59.13 - 00:08:05.04] And it gave them this reflective space to go, well, actually, I've got to fix this about me.
[00:08:05.04 - 00:08:09.00] And I've actually got to go and do something different in this area here.
[00:08:09.00 - 00:08:10.17] And this is valuable.
[00:08:11.02 - 00:08:14.11] I've now got the safe space in which to reflect and grow.
[00:08:14.18 - 00:08:18.04] And I don't think any of them didn't actually shift over time.
[00:08:18.04 - 00:08:21.19] They all started to see what would happen when their teams got really engaged in the
[00:08:21.19 - 00:08:27.09] energy and the extra effort they would go to, to go above and beyond once they were
[00:08:27.09 - 00:08:28.22] fully engaged.
[00:08:29.14 - 00:08:34.02] leaders were able to enable that engagement was game-changing for them.
[00:08:34.08 - 00:08:39.22] Was it traumatic for them to see how people perceive them and their blind spots
[00:08:39.22 - 00:08:41.08] that they weren't aware of?
[00:08:41.08 - 00:08:42.01] Yeah, it's hard.
[00:08:42.01 - 00:08:43.12] It's hard getting that feedback.
[00:08:43.12 - 00:08:45.02] It's very painful.
[00:08:45.02 - 00:08:46.12] Feedback's hard.
[00:08:46.13 - 00:08:48.13] Really good feedback is painful.
[00:08:48.13 - 00:08:54.06] I remember the first time I had a leader who could give me good feedback, just that
[00:08:54.06 - 00:08:57.14] sort of feeling that occurs.
[00:08:59.16 - 00:09:05.11] And I'm happy to share the details of that first solid piece of feedback I got.
[00:09:05.11 - 00:09:09.13] Over the years, I've had leaders who've given me feedback, but this leader...
[00:09:10.09 - 00:09:17.15] He was a CEO and he, within one week of me being hired, I ran a session with the
[00:09:17.15 - 00:09:22.15] leadership team off site around what we needed to do to fix the recruitment problem.
[00:09:22.15 - 00:09:24.14] We had 50% turnover.
[00:09:25.04 - 00:09:28.23] And I needed to model and work out what they needed to be hiring, work out what
[00:09:28.23 - 00:09:34.07] was broken, implement a recruitment process and shift the bar, raise the bar,
[00:09:34.07 - 00:09:35.08] get it higher.
[00:09:35.08 - 00:09:39.19] And in that session, I managed to get everything through and all the work done
[00:09:39.19 - 00:09:42.17] that I wanted to and the outputs there.
[00:09:42.21 - 00:09:47.10] And afterwards he sat me down over lunch and he said to me, how do you think it went?
[00:09:47.13 - 00:09:51.22] And I was candid and I said, well, it was tough because I don't know you very well
[00:09:51.22 - 00:09:53.14] and I don't know the team very well.
[00:09:53.14 - 00:09:55.09] And we got there in the end and
[00:09:55.09 - 00:09:58.16] we've got a bit of a blueprint of what we need to do to fix it and it'll be a
[00:09:58.16 - 00:10:02.16] starting point and probably I'll need to fine tune it and change it but we've made
[00:10:02.16 - 00:10:06.00] a start and he said you want me to tell you how it went?
[00:10:06.12 - 00:10:06.20] Hahaha
[00:10:06.20 - 00:10:11.02] I didn't know that this was going to be an ongoing process.
[00:10:11.02 - 00:10:12.13] And I said, yes, please.
[00:10:12.13 - 00:10:13.19] And so he said, well, you did.
[00:10:13.19 - 00:10:16.04] You did all of those things and you did well.
[00:10:16.04 - 00:10:20.11] But there was one point there where you put up some stats and some figures about
[00:10:20.11 - 00:10:22.15] what had gone on historically.
[00:10:23.01 - 00:10:26.06] And actually, you might have thrown some of the leaders that you're going to have
[00:10:26.06 - 00:10:29.07] to work with really closely under the bus when you did that.
[00:10:30.08 - 00:10:32.13] And I went, oh, no.
[00:10:32.13 - 00:10:34.16] And I knew I knew he was right.
[00:10:35.04 - 00:10:39.15] and because I could feel the tension in the room and my mind went back and I yeah
[00:10:39.23 - 00:10:47.05] and he said but don't worry we're gonna fix us and he sort of he kind of he could
[00:10:47.05 - 00:10:51.07] see I was shaking because I was I was wanting to do a good job and I was I was
[00:10:51.07 - 00:10:58.07] intentional about you know wanting to fix this problem and grow their culture and he
[00:10:58.07 - 00:11:00.02] said come on what we're gonna go and do
[00:11:00.11 - 00:11:02.05] is I'm going to point out who you need to talk to.
[00:11:02.05 - 00:11:06.01] You're just going to go and say, hey, I'm sorry if you feel like I threw you under the bus.
[00:11:06.01 - 00:11:09.06] That was a really rocky era and my apologies.
[00:11:09.06 - 00:11:12.22] And he said, just go around to da and he pointed out and he said, I'll be here,
[00:11:12.22 - 00:11:14.09] come back and talk to me afterwards.
[00:11:14.09 - 00:11:15.13] I'm in your team.
[00:11:15.15 - 00:11:17.02] We're on this journey.
[00:11:17.09 - 00:11:23.02] And so I went and literally did that, and it shifted the dynamic for me immediately.
[00:11:23.06 - 00:11:27.13] And then I learned that every time I did something, this would happen, but then
[00:11:27.13 - 00:11:31.13] every time he did something, he would come and say to me, how did it go?
[00:11:31.23 - 00:11:33.11] What could I do better?
[00:11:33.23 - 00:11:40.16] And so together we went on this journey, and he allowed me to give him feedback,
[00:11:40.16 - 00:11:43.12] which was awesome and...
[00:11:43.21 - 00:11:49.11] I became more and more and more open to really, really good, courageous conversations.
[00:11:49.12 - 00:11:52.04] Radical candor like Kim Scott calls it.
[00:11:52.12 - 00:11:58.13] When it's really radical, it lands hard, but it allows you to embrace it and learn.
[00:11:58.20 - 00:12:07.09] It's heartwarming and it must have been shocking, but the combination is so powerful.
[00:12:07.16 - 00:12:16.03] The shock with the hand holding, say it's alright, we all make mistakes.
[00:12:16.18 - 00:12:19.04] What are the elements of good feedback in your mind?
[00:12:19.11 - 00:12:23.08] Oh, I think it's simple.
[00:12:24.02 - 00:12:28.15] It is simple because the key elements, it needs to be really quick.
[00:12:29.09 - 00:12:34.01] Like if he'd left it till the next day, it would have festered for the others.
[00:12:34.16 - 00:12:40.22] It needs to be candid, so on point, not ruinous empathy, but really real.
[00:12:42.14 - 00:12:45.19] So it's got to cut right into the heart of the matter,
[00:12:45.19 - 00:12:48.19] which is normally that double edged sword thing.
[00:12:50.09 - 00:12:54.14] and I think you can gauge it by the ears of the receiver.
[00:12:55.01 - 00:13:01.10] Now bear in mind, I hadn't worked with him very long, so I hadn't built a close
[00:13:01.10 - 00:13:08.01] relationship with him, but boy, we got close really fast, because I knew he was
[00:13:08.01 - 00:13:14.06] in my team, and that he was gonna help me solution the fix, and then every time I
[00:13:14.06 - 00:13:15.22] got feedback, I knew that would happen.
[00:13:16.05 - 00:13:18.14] So quick, fast, on point.
[00:13:18.18 - 00:13:20.08] Does it need to be personal?
[00:13:20.16 - 00:13:21.10] Yes.
[00:13:21.15 - 00:13:28.01] Because I feel if you talk about a situation or a task as opposed to talk
[00:13:28.01 - 00:13:31.17] about the person, that's one.
[00:13:31.17 - 00:13:36.01] And secondly, if you talk about your feelings, like my feelings as an observer
[00:13:36.01 - 00:13:45.09] giving the feedback, I think when I do that, this puts me in a position of
[00:13:45.09 - 00:13:48.11] vulnerability because talking about feelings is vulnerable.
[00:13:48.11 - 00:13:49.07] Yeah.
[00:13:49.13 - 00:13:55.18] And by talking about a person specifically rather than a situation or a task requires
[00:13:55.21 - 00:13:56.20] courage.
[00:13:57.21 - 00:14:03.00] So I'm doubly exposed when I give that feedback if it's personal and if I share my feelings.
[00:14:03.22 - 00:14:10.18] So maybe it's also another ingredient of candid feedback.
[00:14:11.17 - 00:14:19.09] I often see articles where they talk about trust as checking the boxes.
[00:14:19.23 - 00:14:30.06] So taking care of people and having open communication channels and talking about,
[00:14:30.06 - 00:14:36.12] you know, putting the programs in place, but
[00:14:37.09 - 00:14:39.15] In my experience, it's never about that.
[00:14:39.16 - 00:14:46.19] It's about, like Patrick Lencioni says, it's about admitting weaknesses, admitting
[00:14:46.19 - 00:14:54.07] mistakes, being candid about how you feel and what's wrong.
[00:14:54.18 - 00:14:57.00] And it's really hard to do.
[00:14:57.17 - 00:15:00.06] I really love Brené Brown on this subject.
[00:15:00.06 - 00:15:01.13] She does a lovely little video.
[00:15:01.13 - 00:15:04.09] You know the difference between empathy and trust.
[00:15:05.12 - 00:15:07.06] Sorry, empathy and sympathy.
[00:15:07.06 - 00:15:11.02] It's really easy for us to find a place of sympathy for someone.
[00:15:11.06 - 00:15:16.16] But you have to dig deep to your own personal experience to find empathy.
[00:15:17.13 - 00:15:19.18] And when you use true empathy.
[00:15:20.14 - 00:15:25.03] and you can put yourself in their shoe and you can be alongside them in their
[00:15:25.03 - 00:15:26.16] vulnerability.
[00:15:26.16 - 00:15:29.20] That's when oxytocin, the neurochemical,
[00:15:29.20 - 00:15:34.01] the moral molecule as Paul Zak would call it, turns up.
[00:15:34.17 - 00:15:36.00] And it's airborne.
[00:15:36.00 - 00:15:40.07] So when we have it there, when we're able to be vulnerable with each other, that's
[00:15:40.07 - 00:15:42.15] when trust gets built.
[00:15:44.01 - 00:15:51.01] So I want to dive more into neuroscience, but also I want to add to what you said
[00:15:51.01 - 00:15:52.07] about Brené Brown.
[00:15:52.11 - 00:16:02.07] I love her teachings and how she's humane, direct, and very vulnerable about herself
[00:16:02.07 - 00:16:05.18] and how she communicates.
[00:16:06.04 - 00:16:09.23] So she says about sympathy versus empathy,
[00:16:12.03 - 00:16:17.03] looking at someone who's fallen in a well and saying, Oh, you poor thing.
[00:16:17.10 - 00:16:20.11] I hope someone comes over and rescues you.
[00:16:20.23 - 00:16:22.17] And empathy is like.
[00:16:22.19 - 00:16:30.22] you must be in pain all over your body and you must be scared and you must be feeling
[00:16:30.22 - 00:16:33.06] so lonely at this moment.
[00:16:33.06 - 00:16:34.23] It must be dark down there.
[00:16:35.08 - 00:16:42.16] And in her definition, I think empathy is feeling what the other person is feeling,
[00:16:44.00 - 00:16:52.12] which to me really explains how you need to understand human connection.
[00:16:53.23 - 00:16:55.23] It's feeling what the other person is feeling.
[00:16:55.23 - 00:16:58.00] It's not sitting in judgment.
[00:16:59.08 - 00:17:00.13] or observation.
[00:17:04.08 - 00:17:12.06] So, on to neuroscience, which is fascinating, creating a connection between...
[00:17:12.06 - 00:17:13.12] leadership and neuroscience.
[00:17:13.12 - 00:17:17.22] So one of the things I didn't know, I learned it from you, you said that
[00:17:17.22 - 00:17:23.11] oxytocin, which is a neurotransmitter, is airborne.
[00:17:23.11 - 00:17:24.08] Yeah.
[00:17:25.05 - 00:17:28.11] You can detect it in our blood as well, but you know, have you ever been in a room
[00:17:28.11 - 00:17:31.10] when a baby's just been born?
[00:17:31.10 - 00:17:32.05] Yeah?
[00:17:32.05 - 00:17:34.07] It's flooded with oxytocin.
[00:17:34.20 - 00:17:35.12] Mmm.
[00:17:36.15 - 00:17:42.08] It creates human connection, it creates a bond, but it is also what turns up in
[00:17:42.08 - 00:17:45.04] teams when they trust each other.
[00:17:45.04 - 00:17:52.08] So Paul Zak, he started experimenting ways to detect it when he was researching
[00:17:52.08 - 00:17:55.03] oxytocin or trying to find the moral molecule.
[00:17:55.07 - 00:17:57.10] And he got invited to a wedding in the south of England.
[00:17:57.10 - 00:18:01.06] It was a small wedding and I think they might have been neuroscientists as well.
[00:18:01.18 - 00:18:05.19] And he said, I'll come to your wedding from New York if I can test everyone's
[00:18:05.19 - 00:18:07.21] blood before and after the ceremony.
[00:18:08.03 - 00:18:11.17] And this story always sticks with me because of course the oxytocin levels
[00:18:11.17 - 00:18:12.17] spiked afterwards.
[00:18:12.17 - 00:18:14.20] He was able to detect it in their blood.
[00:18:14.20 - 00:18:19.00] But you know when you go to a wedding, and I was in one on the weekend actually, and
[00:18:19.00 - 00:18:23.09] you know that moment when the bride walks down the aisle, that moment of absolute
[00:18:23.09 - 00:18:28.14] vulnerability, I myself got the tears behind my eyes.
[00:18:29.16 - 00:18:32.19] And I could see the groom, welled up, everybody did.
[00:18:32.19 - 00:18:35.20] She did, it was a beautiful moment.
[00:18:36.18 - 00:18:37.21] Oxytocin.
[00:18:39.06 - 00:18:42.18] So how to use neuroscience when you work with leaders?
[00:18:42.23 - 00:18:44.11] Do you use it consciously?
[00:18:44.23 - 00:18:48.09] I do, I use it around four key ingredients.
[00:18:48.09 - 00:18:50.05] I call it your daily dose.
[00:18:50.05 - 00:18:55.23] So I think leaders need to understand this because in a way, if they think about
[00:18:55.23 - 00:19:01.10] everything they're doing in terms of the daily dose of neurochemicals that we need,
[00:19:01.10 - 00:19:06.05] and these neurochemicals have multiple applications, but if you think about these
[00:19:06.05 - 00:19:11.16] four neurochemicals and how they integrate with the way we work,
[00:19:11.22 - 00:19:16.01] you can see that the right balance of them is good for us.
[00:19:16.01 - 00:19:19.17] So dopamine, for example, that's the D in dose.
[00:19:19.17 - 00:19:22.06] I'm very cheesy, I like anagrams.
[00:19:22.07 - 00:19:25.18] So dopamine is a neurochemical that...
[00:19:26.03 - 00:19:27.20] It drives us to do things.
[00:19:27.20 - 00:19:29.19] It's an achievement neurochemical.
[00:19:29.19 - 00:19:33.15] They have multiple applications, these neurochemicals, but in relation to work,
[00:19:33.15 - 00:19:38.03] leaders need to understand that they need to give their team members achievable work.
[00:19:38.03 - 00:19:41.01] They need to coach and develop them so that they're at the right point in their
[00:19:41.01 - 00:19:44.23] career to do that achievable work, and they need to not overload them.
[00:19:46.06 - 00:19:50.08] So giving them the right amount of work so that they can actually achieve the
[00:19:50.08 - 00:19:54.13] outcomes, get that sense of achievement, drives them with dopamine, pulling them
[00:19:54.13 - 00:19:59.14] back when they start to work too long and too hard, and actually make sure they take
[00:19:59.14 - 00:20:05.00] right breaks and that they're working effectively is also a key understanding
[00:20:05.00 - 00:20:08.04] because you can drive someone with dopamine to the point where they become
[00:20:08.04 - 00:20:10.09] addicted to it.
[00:20:10.09 - 00:20:12.18] And that's when you get the workaholic.
[00:20:13.14 - 00:20:16.18] So they've got to understand the balance of dopamine.
[00:20:17.03 - 00:20:20.20] Oxytocin, that's a neurochemical responsible for trust, and I think that
[00:20:20.20 - 00:20:25.09] leaders set the tone for this if they themselves are vulnerable.
[00:20:25.17 - 00:20:31.20] and they build a culture of vulnerability where feedback is common and candid and
[00:20:31.20 - 00:20:35.23] frequent but done in a way that honours the status of those individuals so that
[00:20:35.23 - 00:20:38.18] people aren't exposed or made fools of.
[00:20:38.22 - 00:20:43.20] They're pulled into that inner sanctuary, that place of trust, and the leaders build
[00:20:43.20 - 00:20:45.06] it consistently.
[00:20:45.06 - 00:20:49.08] They'll avoid that blame culture.
[00:20:49.08 - 00:20:53.09] Serotonin, the neurochemical for romantic love.
[00:20:53.09 - 00:20:55.06] That's how we commonly know it.
[00:20:55.06 - 00:20:58.18] It also turns up in your brain when you're in focus flow.
[00:20:59.03 - 00:21:03.17] And in flow, that's a neurochemical state that Jamie Wheal and Steven Kotler
[00:21:03.17 - 00:21:08.08] researched with the flow genome project with Google and Microsoft.
[00:21:08.12 - 00:21:13.03] You get a dose of serotonin that opens up the pathways in your brain.
[00:21:13.03 - 00:21:17.08] So remember the last time you were in romantic love, and I think all of us can
[00:21:17.08 - 00:21:20.06] remember an experience like that.
[00:21:20.08 - 00:21:23.11] We literally become the best version of ourselves.
[00:21:23.11 - 00:21:24.14] We can't help it.
[00:21:24.14 - 00:21:26.01] Our pathways all open up.
[00:21:26.01 - 00:21:27.04] That's why.
[00:21:27.09 - 00:21:32.06] So we are firing on all cylinders and it's quite a delightful experience.
[00:21:32.06 - 00:21:33.17] It's very addictive.
[00:21:33.18 - 00:21:35.23] Some people get addicted to falling in love.
[00:21:35.23 - 00:21:38.14] But when we fall in love with another person,
[00:21:38.14 - 00:21:40.10] that’s designed to make us bond.
[00:21:41.01 - 00:21:44.03] Serotonin at work doesn't quite turn out the same, although it can do.
[00:21:44.03 - 00:21:46.13] People do fall in love at work, and I'm not talking about that.
[00:21:46.13 - 00:21:50.10] I'm talking about when you're in focus flow and serotonin's turning up in the
[00:21:50.10 - 00:21:54.23] team and everyone is in sync, and they love what they're doing because they love
[00:21:54.23 - 00:21:58.16] their roles, and they know what they need to do.
[00:21:58.18 - 00:22:01.04] So that's a key ingredient.
[00:22:01.08 - 00:22:06.22] And both oxytocin and serotonin are social bonding agents, and they're designed to
[00:22:06.22 - 00:22:08.17] actually make us work well in groups.
[00:22:08.17 - 00:22:12.18] We're designed to be in community and workplaces are communities.
[00:22:13.16 - 00:22:15.09] Final one is endorphins.
[00:22:15.09 - 00:22:17.07] Yeah, I was waiting for the fourth.
[00:22:17.07 - 00:22:20.10] Yeah, so they're the neuro cannabinoids, they're painkillers,
[00:22:20.10 - 00:22:22.15] they turn up when we exercise.
[00:22:22.17 - 00:22:25.10] If you've got a physical role they're going to turn up there, but the great news is
[00:22:25.10 - 00:22:28.22] they also turn up in your brain when you go into flow.
[00:22:28.22 - 00:22:31.22] When you go into focus flow you get a dose of
[00:22:32.22 - 00:22:38.17] dopamine and endorphins and in that state, an anandamide, which kind of acts like a
[00:22:38.17 - 00:22:43.12] bonding agent and suddenly you are focused on problem-solving and so actually work is
[00:22:43.12 - 00:22:44.07] good for your brain.
[00:22:44.07 - 00:22:48.18] There's some positive neurochemicals as long as you don't flick over into workaholism
[00:22:49.06 - 00:22:54.21] which will ultimately lead to burnout, but you stay looking after yourself and you've
[00:22:54.21 - 00:22:59.21] got the social neurochemicals as well which happen in collaborate flow then you
[00:22:59.21 - 00:23:03.02] are actually building positive mental health.
[00:23:03.07 - 00:23:08.00] And there's a strong co-relationship between highly engaged workforces and
[00:23:08.00 - 00:23:09.19] positive mental fitness.
[00:23:09.19 - 00:23:12.12] I've seen it, I've been in it, I've witnessed it.
[00:23:12.12 - 00:23:16.05] I know the difference it makes in the lives of the individuals that work there,
[00:23:16.05 - 00:23:19.14] their careers, the business that makes commercial sense.
[00:23:19.14 - 00:23:22.02] Plus it riffles out into the community.
[00:23:22.13 - 00:23:33.10] Have you seen the change of teaching neuroscience to your leaders?
[00:23:35.13 - 00:23:41.11] Have you seen the change as a result of understanding neuroscience or as a result
[00:23:41.11 - 00:23:48.05] of understanding themselves and becoming better leaders and then translating into
[00:23:50.02 - 00:23:52.07] your observations in neuroscience?
[00:23:52.14 - 00:23:58.18] I think it's a combination of a whole lot of factors for a leader.
[00:23:58.18 - 00:24:01.17] I think that's just one tool set.
[00:24:02.12 - 00:24:04.08] I think that alone is not enough.
[00:24:04.08 - 00:24:06.05] Yeah, yeah.
[00:24:07.11 - 00:24:13.16] Um, who are some of the leaders in neuroscience that we need to learn more
[00:24:13.16 - 00:24:16.03] from, that we need to read up on?
[00:24:16.03 - 00:24:21.12] Definitely Stephen Kotler and Jamie Wheal, who've done a lot of work in the flow space.
[00:24:22.08 - 00:24:29.16] I think Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi is another absolute thought leader in that space.
[00:24:30.10 - 00:24:36.10] Brené Brown in terms of that culture of trust and vulnerability.
[00:24:36.10 - 00:24:39.00] Kim Scott on radical candor.
[00:24:39.12 - 00:24:39.20] Mm-hmm.
[00:24:39.20 - 00:24:45.00] Because what they do is practical and you walk away from reading their work or they
[00:24:45.00 - 00:24:51.12] share so much online for free that you can literally build it into your practice.
[00:24:52.02 - 00:24:56.18] You can absorb it online and then you can apply it straight away and that's what
[00:24:56.18 - 00:24:58.04] makes a difference.
[00:24:58.12 - 00:25:03.19] I think Matthew Townsend and his neuroscience work around sleep is also
[00:25:03.19 - 00:25:10.09] fundamental because as you work your way up the leadership chain you will be under
[00:25:10.09 - 00:25:16.03] more and more pressure and you need to become resilient yourself in order to
[00:25:16.03 - 00:25:18.03] create resilient cultures.
[00:25:18.18 - 00:25:23.16] The other thought leader I really like is Salim Ismail.
[00:25:24.09 - 00:25:29.19] He wrote Anti-Fragile, which is a really interesting piece of work around resilience.
[00:25:29.23 - 00:25:32.21] And the new science of becoming anti-fragile.
[00:25:32.21 - 00:25:37.01] And Nassim Taleb, sorry, not Salim Ismail.
[00:25:37.01 - 00:25:41.19] Salim is the guy who started up a university.
[00:25:41.19 - 00:25:42.16] Singularity University.
[00:25:42.16 - 00:25:48.12] Yeah, which is also a really great source of research and free resources.
[00:25:48.17 - 00:25:53.14] Yeah, but Nassim Taleb's work around both Black Swan, that accidents don't happen
[00:25:53.14 - 00:25:57.21] accidentally and actually we can check back and review how things went wrong in
[00:25:57.21 - 00:26:00.10] order to find out what we can do differently,
[00:26:00.19 - 00:26:04.08] which is a great principle for anti-fragile as well.
[00:26:04.08 - 00:26:09.17] That ability to bounce forward under pressure and to develop not just our IQ,
[00:26:09.17 - 00:26:15.21] but our EQ, and our AQ, and our SQ, which leaders have to be able to build.
[00:26:16.23 - 00:26:24.05] If we move on to leadership development, Sandy, I know you have a very practical
[00:26:24.05 - 00:26:27.00] framework, but also one which resonates with me.
[00:26:27.00 - 00:26:34.19] And you talk about leading self and leading others and leading the community
[00:26:34.19 - 00:26:35.21] in the business.
[00:26:37.04 - 00:26:38.08] Can you tell us more?
[00:26:38.15 - 00:26:41.10] Yeah, so I'm very passionate about this.
[00:26:41.18 - 00:26:48.02] I think that organizations need to articulate really clearly to their leaders
[00:26:48.02 - 00:26:51.07] how they want them to lead in those three key areas.
[00:26:51.07 - 00:26:56.04] Every leadership, every company should have a leadership development framework in
[00:26:56.04 - 00:26:59.13] place that says really clearly how they want them to lead around leading
[00:26:59.13 - 00:27:05.14] themselves, leading others, leading the business, and specifically in some key
[00:27:05.14 - 00:27:07.16] areas in each of those topics.
[00:27:08.05 - 00:27:12.12] When it comes to leading the business, obviously the key fundamentals of what is
[00:27:12.12 - 00:27:16.09] the commercial acumen you need to have to be a great leader in this environment,
[00:27:16.09 - 00:27:19.23] what is the strategic and business planning processes, the budgeting
[00:27:19.23 - 00:27:25.22] processes, the P&L, all of those kind of things, along with how is performance measured.
[00:27:25.22 - 00:27:29.13] Those are the ABCs and when I first started out as a leader, that was what I
[00:27:29.13 - 00:27:31.01] thought I needed to know.
[00:27:31.14 - 00:27:34.17] But I discovered that actually it's the soft skills.
[00:27:35.21 - 00:27:39.15] Even if you look at leading others, there's some really clear transferable
[00:27:39.15 - 00:27:44.01] skills that you can go and get training on around recruitment, development,
[00:27:44.03 - 00:27:50.14] inductions, orientations, career pathways, career development for your team, and then
[00:27:50.14 - 00:27:54.16] communication systems and processes, how to run effective meetings all the way
[00:27:54.16 - 00:28:00.07] through to communicating in town halls and being able to present on the organisation
[00:28:00.07 - 00:28:03.20] externally, and then courageous conversations.
[00:28:03.20 - 00:28:05.18] That's a key soft skill,
[00:28:05.18 - 00:28:09.21] from dealing with difficult people to coaching and developing others and then
[00:28:09.21 - 00:28:14.02] actually being able to have those tough conversations and good robust feedback all
[00:28:14.02 - 00:28:19.10] the way through to maybe having to set someone free if they're not working out
[00:28:19.10 - 00:28:20.16] ultimately.
[00:28:20.16 - 00:28:23.16] But you've probably got a people and culture team that will support you through
[00:28:23.16 - 00:28:27.00] that process and that's the last case resort.
[00:28:27.20 - 00:28:32.06] But the key area is actually leading yourself.
[00:28:32.06 - 00:28:34.07] That's where it should start.
[00:28:34.10 - 00:28:39.05] I just did a leadership development framework for WOOP, the food box company
[00:28:39.05 - 00:28:43.00] here in New Zealand, and they literally put that as a top.
[00:28:43.02 - 00:28:48.08] Being able to lead yourself, lead others, and then lead the business, which I
[00:28:48.08 - 00:28:51.00] thought was a really nice way to put it.
[00:28:51.10 - 00:28:53.20] And leading yourself, what does that mean?
[00:28:53.20 - 00:28:56.19] It means actually understanding how to be resilient.
[00:28:56.19 - 00:28:58.18] What are you doing to look after yourself
[00:28:58.18 - 00:29:02.14] so that you're showing up and bringing the energy into the room, that
[00:29:02.14 - 00:29:09.07] you are able to be there for your team, that you actually have good mechanisms in
[00:29:09.07 - 00:29:14.20] place to take breaks, to look after your own mental fitness and that you're on a
[00:29:14.20 - 00:29:20.03] journey of doing that, that you sleep well, that you eat well, that you focus
[00:29:20.03 - 00:29:25.17] well, that you're actually able to take time off and go and do things for yourself.
[00:29:26.16 - 00:29:29.16] And then your values, what are your values and how do they align with the
[00:29:29.16 - 00:29:30.11] organization?
[00:29:30.11 - 00:29:32.00] And what if you hit a value conflict?
[00:29:32.00 - 00:29:32.21] How do you deal with it?
[00:29:32.21 - 00:29:37.10] Where's a safe space for you to process that and actually resolve that?
[00:29:37.15 - 00:29:41.15] And then also, how are you going to be as a leader?
[00:29:41.15 - 00:29:44.03] What kind of legacy do you want to lead?
[00:29:44.03 - 00:29:46.15] And how does that organization need you to lead?
[00:29:46.15 - 00:29:47.23] What is the leadership culture there?
[00:29:47.23 - 00:29:49.13] Is it servant leader?
[00:29:51.07 - 00:29:56.07] All the way through to Patrick Lencioni's building cultures of trust and building
[00:29:56.07 - 00:30:01.06] the blocks around understanding the neurochemistry of leadership, but also the
[00:30:01.06 - 00:30:06.13] practical skills around showing up every day as a leader and leading a legacy in
[00:30:06.13 - 00:30:08.14] the lives of your teams.
[00:30:08.14 - 00:30:12.17] Because we all remember those amazing leaders that could give us good feedback,
[00:30:12.17 - 00:30:17.08] that were there for us, that could connect with us, that knew how to practice real
[00:30:17.08 - 00:30:21.07] deep empathy, and they didn't rescue us.
[00:30:21.16 - 00:30:24.23] They helped us step up and grow our careers.
[00:30:25.08 - 00:30:30.16] How do you help someone discover their own leadership style, their own comfort zone
[00:30:30.16 - 00:30:32.02] when it comes to leading?
[00:30:32.03 - 00:30:35.16] Because there's too many examples out there.
[00:30:35.16 - 00:30:40.07] Yeah, so there's a variety of components.
[00:30:40.07 - 00:30:45.07] There are a lot of different tools you can use, all the way from your Working Genius,
[00:30:45.07 - 00:30:51.00] from Patrick Lencioni to DiSC or HBDI.
[00:30:51.12 - 00:30:53.01] Yeah, there's lots of those different tools.
[00:30:53.01 - 00:30:56.10] And I think they all have a little bit of value that they can add and they can give
[00:30:56.10 - 00:31:00.04] you different lenses to look through so that you can understand the way that
[00:31:00.04 - 00:31:03.15] you're gonna work with your team, but also understand yourself
[00:31:03.15 - 00:31:07.07] and see objectively how you're coming across.
[00:31:07.07 - 00:31:12.04] I think 360 tools are really valuable too because at the right point in someone's
[00:31:12.04 - 00:31:15.12] career they need to be getting that feedback from not just their manager,
[00:31:15.12 - 00:31:19.13] their self-assessment and their team's assessment and their peers assessment to
[00:31:19.13 - 00:31:23.19] create a space where they can look and see the areas that they need to grow in and
[00:31:23.19 - 00:31:24.15] develop in.
[00:31:24.15 - 00:31:27.01] and get feedback from other perspectives.
[00:31:27.01 - 00:31:32.02] And then there's also a really good culture tool that can measure what's going
[00:31:32.02 - 00:31:33.10] on in their team.
[00:31:33.10 - 00:31:37.14] Like I talked about at Best Workplaces program, that was an employee engagement
[00:31:37.14 - 00:31:41.13] survey, and I think they need to be measuring that and seeing that and getting
[00:31:41.13 - 00:31:43.15] that anonymous feedback as well.
[00:31:43.15 - 00:31:47.06] Because sometimes there's things that people just aren't brave enough to tell them.
[00:31:49.04 - 00:31:56.16] Um, I personally found more about my own leadership style in, uh, Entrepreneurs’
[00:31:56.16 - 00:32:01.14] Organization, EO, and I know you've worked with a few people who are members of EO.
[00:32:02.18 - 00:32:10.17] And to me, it was purely because I, as a CEO, I ended up reporting in someone
[00:32:10.17 - 00:32:16.06] else's board to another, um, to the team leader.
[00:32:16.14 - 00:32:21.07] And as a CEO, I never had the opportunity, or as long as I was CEO, I never had the
[00:32:21.07 - 00:32:22.19] opportunity to report someone else.
[00:32:22.21 - 00:32:23.13] And
[00:32:25.18 - 00:32:30.06] I did that a few times and every time, every committee I was serving in, I was
[00:32:30.06 - 00:32:39.19] observing the leadership style and I was picking up one or two things from each leader.
[00:32:39.21 - 00:32:44.20] From one leader I can remember, I picked up a question which is, how does that
[00:32:44.20 - 00:32:45.20] sound to you?
[00:32:45.20 - 00:32:47.20] How does that sink in with you?
[00:32:47.20 - 00:32:49.14] How does that resonate with you?
[00:32:50.03 - 00:32:53.19] He was throwing an idea and he was just, he was not asking for my thoughts.
[00:32:53.19 - 00:32:56.03] He was asking for how this was resonating.
[00:32:56.09 - 00:33:04.19] And I felt, you know, this, this triggered empathy, um, in, in so many ways.
[00:33:04.19 - 00:33:10.15] And I, I basically, uh, ripped and ripped off and duplicated it.
[00:33:10.15 - 00:33:12.01] I R and D'd it.
[00:33:12.16 - 00:33:19.22] Um, and similarly with other leaders, I was looking at one or two things
[00:33:20.04 - 00:33:22.11] from their leadership style and coping it.
[00:33:22.14 - 00:33:29.16] But that's the only way I found I could develop my own leadership style because I
[00:33:29.16 - 00:33:40.10] was fed with Western literature about leadership with role models being Steve
[00:33:40.10 - 00:33:45.10] Jobs and Bill Gates and all that, being in the tech industry myself.
[00:33:45.21 - 00:33:49.14] And these were for me the wrong role models in many ways.
[00:33:50.18 - 00:33:57.19] And I remember when I was teaching, so my role was a leader of students.
[00:33:58.16 - 00:34:07.20] I thought that, you know, this omnipotent role of a leader was one that knew everything.
[00:34:07.20 - 00:34:10.07] And so I felt I had to know everything.
[00:34:10.07 - 00:34:13.19] So when I made mistakes, I couldn't own up to them.
[00:34:14.09 - 00:34:16.00] And that made me look silly.
[00:34:19.03 - 00:34:22.13] And so it took me a long time to
[00:34:22.18 - 00:34:33.00] do away with this initial set of role models, which I read up on from, again,
[00:34:33.18 - 00:34:42.00] Western male leaders into ones that were much more closer to what I feel my own
[00:34:42.00 - 00:34:42.19] leadership style is.
[00:34:42.19 - 00:34:44.10] So it's a lot of work.
[00:34:45.22 - 00:34:47.16] It's a good to great leader, isn't it?
[00:34:47.16 - 00:34:55.11] The leader who can be humble, who can actually grow the careers of those around
[00:34:55.11 - 00:35:01.22] them, that takes the time to access that deep empathy and can be vulnerable with
[00:35:01.22 - 00:35:03.21] their own team.
[00:35:04.09 - 00:35:09.13] And that builds a culture of vulnerability and real and authenticity.
[00:35:09.13 - 00:35:13.17] And when you have that, you get the human factor turning up.
[00:35:14.10 - 00:35:24.16] Um, and we have very few to even zero role models like that in the press, uh, in the
[00:35:24.16 - 00:35:32.01] public sphere, uh, because for some reason, these are not, uh, these cannot be
[00:35:32.01 - 00:35:38.19] associated with a successful go getter, uh, who, you know, uh, builds amazing
[00:35:38.19 - 00:35:42.06] technology or who, um,
[00:35:42.14 - 00:35:47.00] scales their business or who makes a quick exit or whatever.
[00:35:47.10 - 00:35:52.11] We don't have role models of servant leaders, of humble leaders, of leaders who
[00:35:52.11 - 00:35:55.04] take you by the hand when you've made a mistake.
[00:35:56.15 - 00:35:58.04] These are not the leaders out there.
[00:35:58.04 - 00:36:04.00] And this was, to be honest, my motivation for starting the podcast because I wanted
[00:36:04.00 - 00:36:11.01] to surface those leaders and have more people become aware of what
[00:36:12.07 - 00:36:17.03] I think real leadership is about which is becoming a leader or helping others become
[00:36:17.03 - 00:36:21.08] leaders in your absence.
[00:36:24.09 - 00:36:27.21] So enough about me.
[00:36:27.21 - 00:36:37.11] I would like to hear more about culture, Sandy, and what makes you passionate about
[00:36:37.11 - 00:36:39.04] culture, company culture?
[00:36:40.08 - 00:36:43.17] Well I know that when you get a positive company culture, and bear in mind only the
[00:36:43.17 - 00:36:50.08] top 20% and they're now saying the top 17% positive, you know, would really get up
[00:36:50.08 - 00:36:56.10] there in terms of being able to win awards for having a fully engaged and enabled culture.
[00:36:56.12 - 00:37:02.13] But I see the products of that when I go and work in organisations that do that well.
[00:37:03.09 - 00:37:07.06] And I had the chance to do that at Leading Edge or to be part of that journey and to
[00:37:07.06 - 00:37:10.16] observe it from the engine room.
[00:37:10.16 - 00:37:15.16] And then I also got to see it at IBM when I was working across multiple cultures.
[00:37:15.16 - 00:37:20.13] And then I get to see that inside my clients that achieved that difficult benchmark.
[00:37:20.13 - 00:37:21.22] And it is a journey.
[00:37:22.04 - 00:37:23.14] There's no silver bullet to get there.
[00:37:23.14 - 00:37:28.00] You have to measure, remeasure using a culture tool.
[00:37:28.00 - 00:37:31.03] And then you have to actually take on board the tough learnings and then you've
[00:37:31.03 - 00:37:33.05] got to do a programme of work that's
[00:37:33.05 - 00:37:35.08] related to those tough learnings.
[00:37:35.08 - 00:37:41.13] So it's not easy but what I see in those organizations is the leaders growing their
[00:37:41.13 - 00:37:47.05] careers and I see that the people are growing their careers and I see the
[00:37:47.05 - 00:37:49.00] spin-off of the
[00:37:49.01 - 00:37:51.22] the side effects of that in the positive mental health.
[00:37:51.22 - 00:37:54.16] And I think the two are inextricably linked.
[00:37:54.18 - 00:37:59.05] And the longer I work in this field, the more I think that given that mental
[00:37:59.05 - 00:38:02.20] distress now is running at an all time high, and the data tells us through the
[00:38:02.20 - 00:38:08.00] Resilience Institute that definitely one in three, if not one in two, are gonna
[00:38:08.00 - 00:38:11.02] experience mental distress in the course of their lives.
[00:38:11.02 - 00:38:15.18] If they're working for an organization that has got a fully engaged culture, and
[00:38:15.18 - 00:38:17.04] that top 17%,
[00:38:17.04 - 00:38:19.12] they are going to have the resources
[00:38:19.12 - 00:38:25.11] and the support that they need to actually resolve that quickly or to function as
[00:38:25.11 - 00:38:28.07] well as they possibly can in that environment.
[00:38:29.04 - 00:38:31.22] Because in there is immunity of support.
[00:38:32.19 - 00:38:37.20] And that, I was going to say the key to that is actually leaders knowing how to
[00:38:37.20 - 00:38:42.01] balance performance with care, which is a fine line.
[00:38:43.01 - 00:38:46.19] Good leaders care about their people, but they also need to get them to perform.
[00:38:46.19 - 00:38:50.21] And the skills to be able to do that and to be able to understand how to deal with
[00:38:50.21 - 00:38:54.06] complex situations have to be taught.
[00:38:54.08 - 00:38:56.03] It's not obvious.
[00:38:56.11 - 00:38:59.00] How do you instill a sense of ownership?
[00:39:00.10 - 00:39:04.06] So of course you have to take care of your people but you have to ask your people to
[00:39:04.06 - 00:39:05.10] take care of the business.
[00:39:05.10 - 00:39:06.19] How do you do the latter?
[00:39:08.09 - 00:39:11.06] Well, I think if you're looking after your people and they're proud of the
[00:39:11.06 - 00:39:15.23] organization and you've got the key ingredients right and the culture is
[00:39:15.23 - 00:39:20.05] positive and strong, they'll have that sense of ownership because they'll feel
[00:39:20.05 - 00:39:21.21] proud to be part of it.
[00:39:22.00 - 00:39:24.08] I don't think you can superimpose it.
[00:39:24.23 - 00:39:26.17] I think it comes from within.
[00:39:27.07 - 00:39:30.08] It's intrinsic, like motivation.
[00:39:31.11 - 00:39:33.14] There's that side which is...
[00:39:39.02 - 00:39:45.08] people feeling the need to reciprocate because you've taken good care of them and
[00:39:45.08 - 00:39:50.17] you've given them autonomy and you've given them the space to be themselves and
[00:39:50.17 - 00:39:52.01] to do great work.
[00:39:52.04 - 00:39:57.19] And there's also a part which has to do with giving them the tools to act like owners.
[00:39:58.09 - 00:40:04.13] And one of my favorite books there is the great game of business.
[00:40:04.13 - 00:40:05.20] Yeah, yeah.
[00:40:05.20 - 00:40:12.07] which basically says, make people aware of finances.
[00:40:12.07 - 00:40:17.22] What does it mean to turn a profit for $1 of revenue?
[00:40:17.22 - 00:40:20.04] How much profit is a business generating?
[00:40:20.14 - 00:40:25.14] And then the second one is, well, now how does this apply to our business?
[00:40:26.16 - 00:40:33.21] And the third one is, can you make people responsible for leading indicators,
[00:40:34.11 - 00:40:37.22] sales leads, stock time,
[00:40:42.07 - 00:40:49.05] warehouse issues or whatever else that lead to a profit?
[00:40:49.09 - 00:40:54.21] So how can you make them responsible for these metrics which then translate into profitability?
[00:40:55.18 - 00:41:02.15] And it's a really good way to let people know how their role connects to the vision
[00:41:02.15 - 00:41:08.11] or the strategy of the business and how it actually generates revenue and how it
[00:41:08.11 - 00:41:09.19] minimizes cost.
[00:41:09.19 - 00:41:15.11] And then when they actually understand, people feel like they're included, they're
[00:41:15.11 - 00:41:20.09] involved, they're being developed, and then they're able to grow within that.
[00:41:20.09 - 00:41:22.14] Hmm.
[00:41:22.14 - 00:41:23.14] Absolutely.
[00:41:24.08 - 00:41:33.00] Um, Sandy, as we wrap, um, I meant to ask you about this game I love to play with,
[00:41:33.00 - 00:41:37.00] with guests, and I know you love to play with your clients, which is Two Truths and
[00:41:37.00 - 00:41:42.05] One Lie, uh, because it's a great way of getting to know you a little better.
[00:41:43.10 - 00:41:48.03] So what are Two Truths and One Lie in no particular order about you?
[00:41:48.18 - 00:41:53.05] So a fun fact, and I often say this when I'm running a workshop, is I introduce
[00:41:53.05 - 00:41:55.00] myself with my nickname.
[00:41:55.00 - 00:41:56.08] So this is a fun fact.
[00:41:56.08 - 00:41:58.10] My nickname is Mama Trampel.
[00:41:59.05 - 00:42:05.02] Don't Google it, though, because there's also a porn star called Mama Trampel.
[00:42:05.02 - 00:42:06.11] I'm a roller skater.
[00:42:06.21 - 00:42:08.20] I grew up roller skating.
[00:42:09.01 - 00:42:11.02] My daughter became a roller skater.
[00:42:11.02 - 00:42:15.21] And I also like to deep sea dive.
[00:42:16.12 - 00:42:20.02] I'm quite a physical person, I like getting out in the environment.
[00:42:20.05 - 00:42:22.19] So if I would guess the lie would be the third one.
[00:42:23.17 - 00:42:25.12] How did you do this so fast?
[00:42:27.06 - 00:42:33.17] Well, the first one, the first one you said about the porn star and I knew there
[00:42:33.17 - 00:42:37.20] was a story behind it and you knew about the story so you could tell it comfortably.
[00:42:37.20 - 00:42:47.02] And the second one you said about your daughter, so it wasn't just yourself, you know.
[00:42:47.12 - 00:42:52.07] But then the third one, I knew you were into hiking but then I thought maybe she's
[00:42:52.07 - 00:42:55.01] not into deep sea diving.
[00:42:56.05 - 00:43:00.16] Which you must get amazing opportunities to do that in New Zealand, right?
[00:43:00.16 - 00:43:03.01] There must be coral reefs around there.
[00:43:03.01 - 00:43:07.18] I have dived once off the Great Barrier Reef, and I hated it.
[00:43:07.18 - 00:43:09.06] It was terrifying.
[00:43:09.20 - 00:43:14.14] Not only did you have to wear a suit to stop the nasties from getting in and
[00:43:14.14 - 00:43:21.07] biting you, I was surrounded by sharks and all sorts of venomous creatures and I
[00:43:21.07 - 00:43:23.03] couldn't wait to get out of the water.
[00:43:23.03 - 00:43:27.06] Not to mention the fact that they tell you before you go under and do a deep sea dive
[00:43:27.06 - 00:43:33.09] that if you hold your breath too long you will probably asphyxiate.
[00:43:33.09 - 00:43:40.05] And so the whole dive surrounded by these beautiful, colourful fishes, I was terrified.
[00:43:42.10 - 00:43:42.21] So I don't like...
[00:43:42.21 - 00:43:45.08] Don't do this at home.
[00:43:45.08 - 00:43:46.02] Yeah.
[00:43:46.22 - 00:43:47.23] Wonderful.
[00:43:48.03 - 00:43:55.12] So, um, Sandy, when, when you, uh, encounter a leader who is not intentional
[00:43:55.12 - 00:44:01.15] about their culture, what do you like to, to whisper to them?
[00:44:01.15 - 00:44:06.03] What do we need to be more, um, thoughtful?
[00:44:06.03 - 00:44:08.18] What do we need to rethink about culture more?
[00:44:09.20 - 00:44:14.10] So generally speaking, if I encounter a leader who's not intentional about
[00:44:14.10 - 00:44:22.03] culture, I would whisper to them that leadership can be lonely.
[00:44:24.01 - 00:44:28.07] And I wonder what your people think of you.
[00:44:29.02 - 00:44:30.19] I wonder what you don't know.
[00:44:31.13 - 00:44:35.20] And quietly, most of them are worried about that.
[00:44:39.01 - 00:44:40.16] That's so powerful.
[00:44:42.00 - 00:44:47.07] And you did almost whisper it as you would to someone's ear.
[00:44:47.07 - 00:44:51.01] And I think it goes deep.
[00:44:51.14 - 00:44:53.08] And what if you didn't have to lead alone?
[00:44:53.08 - 00:44:54.22] What if it could be different?
[00:44:56.00 - 00:44:56.22] Amazing.
[00:44:58.02 - 00:45:04.02] It reminds me actually of when we built the first leadership framework at Leading Edge.
[00:45:04.02 - 00:45:08.00] I had the wonderful opportunity of going back and building it after running the
[00:45:08.00 - 00:45:12.12] Best Workplaces program and I got to hire an L&D manager, an industrial
[00:45:12.12 - 00:45:17.00] psychologist, so I can't claim to building that framework all on my own.
[00:45:17.00 - 00:45:17.18] But...
[00:45:19.07 - 00:45:25.17] I came across this fundamental internal values conflict in myself where I'd grown
[00:45:25.17 - 00:45:30.20] up in the Pentecostal church, I wasn't in part of that movement anymore, I didn't
[00:45:30.20 - 00:45:38.23] believe in that anymore, but I still had this weird internal value in me that came
[00:45:38.23 - 00:45:43.10] from that world where, from a religious perspective...
[00:45:44.09 - 00:45:48.03] humankind is not capable of leading themselves.
[00:45:48.03 - 00:45:51.20] In fact, if you look around the planet, you can see many examples of how we're not.
[00:45:52.00 - 00:45:55.01] But we actually need a transcendent higher power.
[00:45:56.01 - 00:45:57.16] And I thought, well, hang on.
[00:45:57.16 - 00:46:00.15] If I'm sitting with that, that's not actually helpful.
[00:46:01.20 - 00:46:02.20] That's not helping me.
[00:46:02.20 - 00:46:04.13] And how many religions believe that?
[00:46:04.13 - 00:46:09.22] And I looked across all the religions and many of them fundamentally instill that
[00:46:10.21 - 00:46:11.23] into their...
[00:46:12.12 - 00:46:14.22] congregations and their followers.
[00:46:16.14 - 00:46:20.20] And I had to kind of weed it out of myself and go, it's not true.
[00:46:22.13 - 00:46:29.16] Actually people are inherently able to choose to have a growth mindset.
[00:46:31.03 - 00:46:39.15] So people can choose to be effective leader if they choose to.
[00:46:39.15 - 00:46:41.08] It's not about good or bad.
[00:46:42.06 - 00:46:46.23] And I wondered to myself, well, I'm probably in this unique position where I'm
[00:46:46.23 - 00:46:51.08] looking at it at a very fundamental level, and I had to kind of deal with that
[00:46:51.08 - 00:46:52.21] internal conflict.
[00:46:53.01 - 00:47:00.02] And I wonder how that influences people in those tough times when I've seen many
[00:47:00.02 - 00:47:02.16] amazing leaders crack under pressure.
[00:47:03.02 - 00:47:07.08] You know, they've either burnt out or they've gone down a pathway they didn't want to.
[00:47:07.11 - 00:47:11.03] They've had an affair or they've done something that actually they never
[00:47:11.03 - 00:47:14.23] intended to do, but they cracked under the pressure.
[00:47:15.05 - 00:47:16.14] And I wonder if...
[00:47:18.06 - 00:47:21.20] If they had that space where they didn't have to lead alone, where they were
[00:47:21.20 - 00:47:25.22] supported and encouraged, and they could grow and develop those skills.
[00:47:25.22 - 00:47:30.16] That's one of the things I love about EO, is it creates a safe space.
[00:47:30.16 - 00:47:32.07] Because leadership's tough.
[00:47:33.21 - 00:47:36.11] But it's also a very, very valuable journey.
[00:47:37.03 - 00:47:41.22] And it also reminds me that we should lead with love and not fear.
[00:47:44.10 - 00:47:46.16] Love of being ourselves and...
[00:47:46.20 - 00:47:52.06] without the fear of judgment, failure of not being good enough.
[00:47:53.05 - 00:47:56.17] And with that, I'd like to thank you, Sandy.
[00:47:56.19 - 00:48:04.09] Um, we could maybe go on for another episode, but I think it's time we wrap.
[00:48:04.16 - 00:48:06.11] I'd like to keep these short.
[00:48:06.13 - 00:48:15.01] Uh, and thank you for your, uh, your insights on neuroscience, your
[00:48:16.05 - 00:48:24.23] wisdom of how you train your leaders, your stories of compassion and of learning,
[00:48:25.10 - 00:48:26.18] learning the hard way.
[00:48:28.18 - 00:48:39.15] Um, and, uh, yeah, I hope more leaders lead from a place of compassion and love,
[00:48:39.15 - 00:48:40.17] but not fear.
[00:48:41.13 - 00:48:42.03] Yeah, I agree.
[00:48:42.03 - 00:48:49.15] Cultures of growth and love and compassion create really amazing environments that
[00:48:49.15 - 00:48:52.08] are commercially sensible as well.
[00:48:55.04 - 00:48:59.20] And with that, thank you for everyone listening.
[00:49:00.16 - 00:49:05.14] If you want to keep in touch and not miss any of the next episodes, you know you
[00:49:05.14 - 00:49:07.16] need to hit that subscribe button.
[00:49:08.12 - 00:49:13.18] And I always love feedback and learning, so don't forget to tell us what you think
[00:49:13.18 - 00:49:23.01] by emailing rethink{rethinkculture.co and keep leading with love and not fear.
[00:49:23.01 - 00:49:24.11] Thank you so much, Andreas.
[00:49:24.11 - 00:49:26.05] What an honor to be part of this.
[00:49:26.05 - 00:49:27.01] Thank you.