WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:06.398 --> 00:00:09.348 Nick Davies: All right, Cheryl, Welcome to this podcast. 00:00:09.348 --> 00:00:10.478 I'm so excited to have you here. 00:00:10.778 --> 00:00:11.018 Yeah. 00:00:11.018 --> 00:00:11.768 How are you doing today? 00:00:12.118 --> 00:00:12.488 I'm doing 00:00:12.498 --> 00:00:12.778 Cheryl Johnson: great. 00:00:12.778 --> 00:00:12.888 How 00:00:12.888 --> 00:00:13.188 Nick Davies: are you? 00:00:13.868 --> 00:00:15.398 I am doing well. 00:00:15.598 --> 00:00:20.028 As listeners know, this is always a pretty short thing, so we just get into it right away. 00:00:20.028 --> 00:00:22.203 So if you're ready, I got my first question for you. 00:00:22.553 --> 00:00:22.833 Good. 00:00:22.903 --> 00:00:23.273 Let's go. 00:00:23.373 --> 00:00:23.833 All right. 00:00:24.143 --> 00:00:29.153 So tell me a little bit about your career progression and maybe some habits or strategies that have helped you. 00:00:29.153 --> 00:00:39.063 We've talked in the past and I know that you have a kind of a different path for educators since you started in the business world, but tell us just a little bit about that progression and some things that have helped you move along in your career. 00:00:39.563 --> 00:00:44.283 Cheryl Johnson: I took a rather non traditional, I started off when my kids were really young. 00:00:44.303 --> 00:00:52.383 I started a business training people with disabilities to use computer technology in the days before it was a thing. 00:00:53.208 --> 00:00:55.468 Okay, early 1990s, let's go back that far. 00:00:56.018 --> 00:01:02.278 And during that time, I was really, there was no, not a lot of formal training materials out there. 00:01:02.798 --> 00:01:04.958 So I ended up writing a lot of my own training materials. 00:01:05.498 --> 00:01:16.198 And in the course of writing a lot of my own training materials, I, my audiences, because that's when voice recognition first entered the market, it was, okay, I have people who have. 00:01:16.738 --> 00:01:17.758 I physical disabilities. 00:01:17.788 --> 00:01:20.008 I have people who have mental disabilities. 00:01:20.328 --> 00:01:27.268 I have people who are doctors and lawyers who want to use voice recognition technology, and I'm trying to write a training for all of them. 00:01:28.568 --> 00:01:38.008 And so I was like, okay, we get into everybody in the learning space always talks about learning styles, auditory, visual, kinesthetic, I was like, that's not going to help me. 00:01:38.408 --> 00:01:42.098 So I started looking into what motivates people to learn. 00:01:42.563 --> 00:01:50.323 And what how do you address different people with different learning styles without having to reinvent the wheel every time you come to a different audience, right? 00:01:51.333 --> 00:01:54.033 So I spent many years doing that, about 10 years. 00:01:54.163 --> 00:02:00.383 And then due to some life circumstances I ended up partnering with a guy who was really fun. 00:02:00.753 --> 00:02:03.373 And this was in the days when the internet was brand new. 00:02:03.873 --> 00:02:06.943 And we started writing online tutorials. 00:02:08.028 --> 00:02:25.588 So that was really cool because there wasn't technology for online stuff back then and I decided I really liked that and I wanted to go back to school because at this point I have no education Okay, I'm just a person who knew nothing about computers who wanted to start a computer business Go figure that right? 00:02:25.918 --> 00:02:26.238 Nick Davies: Yeah 00:02:27.178 --> 00:02:43.553 Cheryl Johnson: Anyway, from there I, this, like I said, we're still in the early 2000s, and there was no formal curriculum or degree program in the college space for e learning or, online learning. 00:02:44.383 --> 00:02:50.513 So I learned that the things that I needed to learn were IT, computer tech, technology. 00:02:50.823 --> 00:02:56.493 I needed to learn visual, not visual, um, how to create graphics, graphic design, that's the word I'm looking for. 00:02:56.993 --> 00:02:59.473 And I also needed to understand how people learned. 00:03:00.033 --> 00:03:03.323 We'll talk about three completely, totally different disciplines, right? 00:03:04.493 --> 00:03:12.793 So I went to college, and instead of trying to get a degree, I was like, I'm gonna learn about this, I'm gonna learn about this, I'm gonna learn about this, right? 00:03:13.733 --> 00:03:18.023 And I eventually went on and, through rather unconventional methods, got a degree. 00:03:19.083 --> 00:03:22.863 And then I got my master's degree in action learning. 00:03:23.903 --> 00:03:42.073 Which I don't know how many people know about action learning, but I was working for a company so many people might have heard of it, especially if you're in the education space, because they do a lot of cafeterias and colleges, but anyway, working for them, they put me through a action learning program, which is very project based 18 months. 00:03:42.273 --> 00:03:49.913 You have a, project that you work on, and I won't go into all of the details about it, but it was, here's where the project started. 00:03:50.003 --> 00:03:54.533 Here was the evolution of the project throughout the time, the 18 months. 00:03:54.783 --> 00:03:55.773 And here's what I learned. 00:03:55.773 --> 00:03:58.723 And here's the real kicker for all you education people out there. 00:03:59.203 --> 00:03:59.733 Okay. 00:03:59.853 --> 00:04:01.463 At the very end, my job. 00:04:02.403 --> 00:04:18.723 Based on my project was to convince Sodexo that they needed to have a formal online learning program because they had a whole bunch of technical writers that were not instructional designers and they needed to convert them from technical writers to instructional designers, which was, once again, a whole different discipline. 00:04:19.803 --> 00:04:20.673 My project failed. 00:04:21.223 --> 00:04:22.903 Sodexo said, Nope, we're not doing it. 00:04:23.113 --> 00:04:23.753 Blah, blah, blah. 00:04:23.853 --> 00:04:24.023 Nick Davies: Yeah. 00:04:24.063 --> 00:04:24.163 And 00:04:24.213 --> 00:04:24.753 Cheryl Johnson: I was like. 00:04:25.318 --> 00:04:33.138 Oh, my gosh, I just spent 18 months devoting my life to, doing all of these project plans and trainings and all this stuff, right? 00:04:33.708 --> 00:04:45.358 And I went to my counselor, academic counselor for this program, this educational program that I was Engaged in to get my master's and I was like, Oh, does this mean I'm not going to get it? 00:04:45.358 --> 00:04:48.738 I'm all like, Oh, she said, No, that's not the purpose of the program. 00:04:49.948 --> 00:04:54.868 The purpose of the program was not to see whether or not you could sell Sodexo on a program. 00:04:54.868 --> 00:04:57.808 That's that will put you in sales and marketing for that. 00:04:59.338 --> 00:05:05.638 And so it was all about my learning journey and what I had learned and, what kinds of. 00:05:07.058 --> 00:05:11.088 takeaways I had that I could apply in my own career and different things. 00:05:11.088 --> 00:05:17.388 So there was a whole other list of criteria that determined whether or not I got my degree, which I did. 00:05:18.098 --> 00:05:33.828 And it's rare to get a, I didn't get a traditional, once again, a master's degree because I wanted, I specifically wanted this action learning program through the same, and it was through the UK, through the same school. 00:05:33.828 --> 00:05:36.468 It fell under Oxford, but it was not Oxford. 00:05:36.723 --> 00:05:40.123 I don't want to mislead anybody there, but, it was a thing there. 00:05:40.313 --> 00:05:48.673 So anyway, I had a very unconventional way of going about my own personal education and all the things I learned through education, which I think will lead us into this. 00:05:49.593 --> 00:05:50.683 Discussion a little bit more. 00:05:51.103 --> 00:05:52.963 Nick Davies: Yeah, and I think that's a great segue. 00:05:53.013 --> 00:05:53.743 Because you've written a book. 00:05:53.753 --> 00:05:55.533 The Ambition Quotient. 00:05:55.643 --> 00:05:56.713 The Missing Link, right? 00:05:57.033 --> 00:05:59.483 It sounds like your journey might have been leading you to that point. 00:05:59.483 --> 00:06:01.383 But talk about where did this book come from? 00:06:01.383 --> 00:06:02.713 Who's that intended audience? 00:06:02.973 --> 00:06:05.563 What are some key takeaways from The Ambition Quotient? 00:06:06.938 --> 00:06:08.268 Cheryl Johnson: Okay, it's a very short book. 00:06:08.278 --> 00:06:08.858 So guess what? 00:06:08.858 --> 00:06:09.698 You'll get a very short. 00:06:10.198 --> 00:06:14.418 What I found after I finally, I was an independent consultant, I quit working for Sodex. 00:06:14.438 --> 00:06:15.938 So I ended up as an independent consultant. 00:06:16.578 --> 00:06:21.878 And I worked for a lot of government contractors, but I also worked for a lot of small business, big business, you name it. 00:06:21.878 --> 00:06:24.008 I've worked for everybody under the sun, right? 00:06:24.658 --> 00:06:37.408 But consistently across the board, in around 2010, 2011, I started recognizing that a lot of the training programs that I was writing as a corporate instructional designer were onboarding programs. 00:06:37.968 --> 00:06:38.768 Go figure, right? 00:06:38.848 --> 00:06:47.548 And this is about the time when all of the Millennials and, all these Gen Z and, and in the corporate world, it's oh, we've got all these baby boomers and all these Millennials. 00:06:47.558 --> 00:06:53.918 How do they, how do we mesh those two and get them to there was a whole lot about that, but there was also just a lot about onboarding in general. 00:06:54.703 --> 00:07:12.263 And I noticed that there was this huge gap from people from young people who graduated from school, an academic university or, K through 12, whatever, when they came into the workplace, they were missing five key attributes. 00:07:12.673 --> 00:07:17.463 Creativity, problem solving team building, communication and resilience. 00:07:18.283 --> 00:07:20.553 And it was funny because that was just my own observations. 00:07:20.633 --> 00:07:22.303 I had no data to back that up. 00:07:22.303 --> 00:07:23.513 It was just, it was interesting. 00:07:24.073 --> 00:07:32.353 But in the corporate learning space, there's ATD, the Association of Talent Development, which is what used to be ASTD, one of the biggest. 00:07:32.903 --> 00:07:41.093 Membership organization out there for corporate learners learning about and a year or two later, they came out with a study and they were studying the same thing. 00:07:41.093 --> 00:07:42.673 I was observing. 00:07:42.893 --> 00:07:43.663 And guess what? 00:07:44.823 --> 00:07:46.273 I nailed all 5 of them. 00:07:47.963 --> 00:07:56.333 And so I decided I was going to write this book and just share my own personal anecdotes and experiences with. 00:07:57.193 --> 00:08:16.493 All of these people that, all these students that I was onboarding into the corp, bringing them, trying to bridge that gap between their academic careers and their new, newfound careers and helping them to build these attributes, because I found that they were really struggling to come from the academic world into the corporate world. 00:08:16.503 --> 00:08:25.078 It was you may know your subject matter, When you come, in some cases, because not all people will get a job in the discipline in which they went to school. 00:08:27.068 --> 00:08:38.488 I found that a lot of the types of activities that I had engaged in throughout all my unconventional journey through my academic career helped me develop those types of things. 00:08:38.858 --> 00:08:42.958 And I also learned from my own experience working with these young people. 00:08:44.433 --> 00:08:45.793 how to help them develop those. 00:08:45.833 --> 00:08:49.043 So that was, that's the short synopsis of the book. 00:08:50.543 --> 00:08:50.953 Nick Davies: That's great. 00:08:50.963 --> 00:08:52.433 Now, can you name those five again? 00:08:52.433 --> 00:08:54.923 Those are awesome things that we can all be working on. 00:08:55.123 --> 00:08:55.473 Cheryl Johnson: Yes. 00:08:55.533 --> 00:09:00.343 Creativity, problem solving, team building, communication, and resilience. 00:09:00.563 --> 00:09:01.313 Not in that order. 00:09:02.663 --> 00:09:06.853 Nick Davies: So it sounds like we have a lot of schools now that are pushing towards project based learning. 00:09:07.093 --> 00:09:12.193 And those are some of the the tenants that I don't want to quote them, but those are some of the things that they focus on, right? 00:09:12.203 --> 00:09:12.463 Yes. 00:09:12.583 --> 00:09:14.373 And that's becoming bigger and bigger. 00:09:14.533 --> 00:09:19.683 I know in my district, we have two schools specifically that is their main method of teaching. 00:09:19.973 --> 00:09:27.073 And it's becoming more and more common for teachers, just like individual classroom teachers, to work that into a unit or two or three throughout the school year. 00:09:28.068 --> 00:09:34.598 Cheryl Johnson: Yes, and I'm so excited to hear that because I felt like even we're in 2024. 00:09:34.648 --> 00:09:37.858 I'm like, I've been preaching this for how long now? 00:09:38.288 --> 00:09:49.938 And they're finally starting to catch on, which I'm super, super excited about, because I think that and, I was on a podcast with another person the other day from, the academic disciplines. 00:09:50.688 --> 00:09:53.073 And we were talking about A. I. Yeah. 00:09:53.653 --> 00:09:54.973 Everybody's favorite subject, right? 00:09:56.283 --> 00:10:02.143 And how it's going to change the whole dynamic of the workplace, which I believe it's going to be very disruptive and it's going to cause a lot of problems. 00:10:02.733 --> 00:10:13.933 And what's going to happen is all these kids that are graduating from these schools and universities or whatever, and entering the workforce, what the discipline that they come in with. 00:10:15.013 --> 00:10:18.453 In a year's time might not exist. 00:10:18.903 --> 00:10:19.893 And so what do we do? 00:10:20.473 --> 00:10:21.433 What do we, these kids are? 00:10:21.433 --> 00:10:27.533 After all these years of being put through what I consider conveyor belt education Yeah. 00:10:27.563 --> 00:10:29.863 Are all of a sudden going, I don't know. 00:10:29.863 --> 00:10:32.633 Like I said, I encountered that through all the, through all my years. 00:10:33.183 --> 00:10:37.143 But it's just gonna become on an ex expedited schedule. 00:10:37.853 --> 00:10:42.593 And because of that, it is coming so important that they develop these skills. 00:10:45.028 --> 00:10:45.358 Nick Davies: Yeah. 00:10:45.678 --> 00:10:52.218 We talk about when I was at the high school, we talked about making sure that our kids were college, career and life ready, right? 00:10:52.258 --> 00:10:54.748 Because you don't know what you're going to face. 00:10:54.768 --> 00:10:57.168 Yeah, we'd love everyone to make it to college, but they don't. 00:10:57.198 --> 00:10:58.718 And so are they career ready? 00:10:58.718 --> 00:11:02.178 But then even that are the kids just ready to go out there and live, right? 00:11:02.268 --> 00:11:07.668 And those five keys that you mentioned are not just going to be helpful out in the business world, right? 00:11:07.668 --> 00:11:09.958 They're just to help you just move through life. 00:11:10.528 --> 00:11:11.548 Cheryl Johnson: I totally agree. 00:11:11.588 --> 00:11:12.108 100%. 00:11:12.638 --> 00:11:12.808 Nick Davies: Yeah. 00:11:13.118 --> 00:11:14.178 Thank you for sharing those. 00:11:15.008 --> 00:11:17.678 Now, you've done a lot of different things in your career. 00:11:17.678 --> 00:11:18.468 You've written a book, right? 00:11:18.468 --> 00:11:20.958 You've consulted, worked for businesses. 00:11:21.678 --> 00:11:24.688 How do you feel like you get the best return on your time? 00:11:24.688 --> 00:11:27.698 Like, how do you make sure that you have time to get the most important stuff done? 00:11:28.248 --> 00:11:31.038 Cheryl Johnson: Oddly enough, goes back to what we're just talking about a little bit. 00:11:31.358 --> 00:11:33.848 Early on, and I'm, keep in mind, I'm on the tail end. 00:11:33.848 --> 00:11:34.848 I'm on the retirement end. 00:11:34.848 --> 00:11:35.368 I'm like, oh. 00:11:36.078 --> 00:11:39.608 I have more time than I do, it's but most people don't have that, right? 00:11:40.233 --> 00:11:45.293 And early on, I hired a lot of contractors to help me, and guess who those contractors were? 00:11:46.223 --> 00:11:48.663 They were my kids, because they were in college, and they needed money. 00:11:49.213 --> 00:11:57.513 But then their kids, or their friends found out, Ooh, I can work for, at this time in 2010, 20 an hour, which they thought they were getting rich. 00:11:57.843 --> 00:11:59.783 And I can work remotely. 00:12:00.093 --> 00:12:03.093 On my own hours, they thought they were in seventh heaven, right? 00:12:03.973 --> 00:12:18.693 But that's where I really started going, Okay, I'm dealing with a ton of these college kids who come to, don't know how to manage their time, don't know how to deal with a project plan, don't know how to deal with any of those types of things. 00:12:19.123 --> 00:12:26.053 And so I spent a lot of time training them how to do that, at the behest of my daughter, no less, who was actually pretty good at it. 00:12:26.333 --> 00:12:26.943 Thank goodness. 00:12:28.083 --> 00:12:30.713 And she was a great inspiration and a help to me. 00:12:31.183 --> 00:12:32.333 And that's. 00:12:33.173 --> 00:12:38.593 They say you learn the most by teaching and by teaching them, that's how I learned how to do that. 00:12:40.693 --> 00:12:41.263 Nick Davies: That's awesome. 00:12:41.713 --> 00:12:41.913 Yeah. 00:12:41.963 --> 00:12:48.383 I, so I asked that question to so many different people and you're the first one to say hire a contractor, like find, essentially find someone. 00:12:48.383 --> 00:12:50.483 If there's something you can outsource, then outsource it. 00:12:50.793 --> 00:12:51.943 Really interesting idea. 00:12:51.953 --> 00:12:59.903 I would, I've all, I've thought a little bit about that of working in public schools that, if I had my own like virtual assistant, that would, that'd be wrong for a bunch of reasons. 00:13:00.143 --> 00:13:07.733 Especially with like public records requests or whatever, but just, are there other things that could be done like that to help ease a school leader's job? 00:13:07.973 --> 00:13:11.163 Not like your day to day operations, but other things, and I'm sure there are. 00:13:11.453 --> 00:13:13.673 I just need to sit down and think that one through for longer. 00:13:14.153 --> 00:13:23.903 Cheryl Johnson: Interestingly enough, and this is an anecdote from my book, I will tell you, going back to the idea that we teach, we learn most, we learn best when we teach, right? 00:13:24.623 --> 00:13:29.833 And teachers, I find, I'm guilty, number one, are the worst people, that's, see? 00:13:30.123 --> 00:13:31.893 I graduated, I have really good grammar. 00:13:33.488 --> 00:13:43.578 Are the worst at how would you say allowing our students to teach because we live in a world where we're the expert. 00:13:43.648 --> 00:13:44.828 We know everything. 00:13:44.848 --> 00:13:46.218 We're going to share the knowledge. 00:13:46.218 --> 00:13:47.778 Then we're going to test you to see. 00:13:48.178 --> 00:13:55.808 My son became an electrician and my brother hired him and especially in the vocational space. 00:13:55.818 --> 00:13:57.618 You're going to find a lot of. 00:13:58.268 --> 00:14:09.608 People coming into that space, employees who, for whatever reason, they probably didn't do well in school or, and they don't have a lot of good work habits and blah, blah, blah, whole story, right? 00:14:10.208 --> 00:14:10.588 Anyway. 00:14:11.773 --> 00:14:20.303 They were really struggling at 7am on Fridays to get their, 17, 18, 19 year old kids to stay awake for safety training. 00:14:20.303 --> 00:14:21.253 Can you imagine that? 00:14:21.253 --> 00:14:21.853 Go figure, right? 00:14:22.243 --> 00:14:23.783 Safety training is so exciting. 00:14:24.323 --> 00:14:28.893 And so my brother was complaining to me one day and I said why don't you just let them teach safety? 00:14:28.903 --> 00:14:30.863 He's I'm not letting them teach safety training. 00:14:30.863 --> 00:14:31.683 Are you kidding? 00:14:32.233 --> 00:14:33.743 He said, that'd be the worst thing we could do. 00:14:33.743 --> 00:14:34.853 These guys know nothing. 00:14:35.433 --> 00:14:37.588 And I'm like, That's the point. 00:14:38.048 --> 00:14:40.198 I said, you don't just say here. 00:14:40.198 --> 00:14:41.628 I want you to teach this. 00:14:42.338 --> 00:14:44.138 You say next Friday. 00:14:44.348 --> 00:14:47.368 You are going to be teaching this safety protocol. 00:14:48.338 --> 00:14:50.378 Now we're going to spend the next week working together. 00:14:50.853 --> 00:15:04.373 On your presentation and during that time, you're going to learn all of this information and by them, not only learning all that information, they're also whenever you have to teach something, you have to break it down. 00:15:04.373 --> 00:15:05.943 You have to, there's so much you have to do. 00:15:05.943 --> 00:15:08.313 My mom learned this to teaching piano and everything. 00:15:08.313 --> 00:15:11.043 Yeah, there's so many little things that we don't think about. 00:15:11.093 --> 00:15:12.543 And teachers can fully appreciate this. 00:15:13.473 --> 00:15:22.438 And so they not only learn the subject matter, But they also learn how to communicate and, all these kind of things. 00:15:22.748 --> 00:15:31.958 And then when they're teaching their peers, their peers are going to start asking questions and then they're like I don't know the answer to that, but they have somebody there who can help them. 00:15:32.428 --> 00:15:41.368 But through that process, so I would really strongly encourage teachers to allow your students to do a lot more of the teaching. 00:15:41.918 --> 00:15:47.628 And but prepare them don't just throw them into the deep end of the pool and say, I hope you learn how to swim here. 00:15:49.068 --> 00:15:56.458 But, I just found that to be 1 of the most powerful ways of helping people learn in general is to get that opportunity. 00:15:57.533 --> 00:15:58.133 Nick Davies: I think that's great. 00:15:58.233 --> 00:16:00.523 And it gives students leadership opportunities as well. 00:16:01.103 --> 00:16:04.493 Now the last thing I always like to ask people is about this idea of balance. 00:16:04.493 --> 00:16:10.053 And I know you've, I've heard you use this phrase about harmonic leadership and how that relates to balance and that kind of stuff. 00:16:10.053 --> 00:16:11.593 So can you talk about this idea? 00:16:11.913 --> 00:16:13.323 What is harmonic leadership? 00:16:13.323 --> 00:16:14.143 What does that mean to you? 00:16:14.143 --> 00:16:16.183 How does it relate to like other parts of your life? 00:16:17.168 --> 00:16:24.602 Cheryl Johnson: That's interesting because that's such a, whoo, we 00:16:24.602 --> 00:16:26.438 Nick Davies: could 00:16:26.618 --> 00:16:27.658 Cheryl Johnson: spend hours talking. 00:16:27.668 --> 00:16:31.948 So I'll just, how about if I just give you one brief idea, okay. 00:16:32.528 --> 00:16:43.258 Is harmonic leadership to me is really about helping people once again, understand that as a leader, a teacher, whatever you want to call it, that we are all leaders. 00:16:44.698 --> 00:16:52.768 I had the hardest time understanding this in my life because I didn't ever feel I wasn't a CEO, I wasn't the head of some department, I wasn't anything. 00:16:53.018 --> 00:16:57.738 I was just a contractor that went in and sure I hired a bunch of other contractors to help me. 00:16:58.108 --> 00:17:00.068 And I didn't ever see myself as a leader. 00:17:00.368 --> 00:17:08.358 If everybody sees themself as a leader and takes the time to really internalize what that means. 00:17:08.828 --> 00:17:10.428 We behave differently. 00:17:11.508 --> 00:17:12.218 If I were, 00:17:14.608 --> 00:17:20.358 let's just say I was a CEO and I have a whole bunch of people who are really struggling to find work life balance or whatever. 00:17:20.938 --> 00:17:29.778 If I put myself in their shoes and I start walking their walk, then all of a sudden I look at things differently. 00:17:30.818 --> 00:17:40.758 And so when we talk about harmonic leadership, we talk a lot about quiet leadership, about servant leadership, and about walking in other people's shoes. 00:17:41.603 --> 00:17:48.993 Because when you do that, and things through that different lens, it naturally creates harmony. 00:17:49.488 --> 00:18:33.198 Because we're connecting with other people simply because we're understanding them and we're no longer focused on spreadsheets and bottom line and, teachers making sure we have all of these, when you're as a teacher, you might, you're a leader, but if you put yourself in your student's shoes and try to walk their walk and talk their talk, it creates, I would think, in my experience doing this, A harmonious environment, I know this is so woo out there, that's why I said it takes an hour to talk about it, but this harmonious environment just naturally reduces stress, obviously I talk a lot with my hands, and brings people closer together. 00:18:35.923 --> 00:18:37.553 Nick Davies: So thank you for sharing that perspective. 00:18:37.583 --> 00:18:46.103 And that's a, I think we can lose that at times of this idea of putting ourselves in Who are we leading putting ourselves in their shoes? 00:18:46.103 --> 00:18:51.043 And I love the idea of as a teacher as a school leader what does it look like? 00:18:51.043 --> 00:18:56.533 What does your school look like if you were to walk as a student not as a principal not as a teacher? 00:18:57.753 --> 00:19:18.543 And I know like when I was in graduate school, we were we actually had to do that for a whole day We literally had to go shoulder to shoulder with a kid and follow them through their day, but when people don't force you to do that, I think we forget and that's a great reminder of go sit next to a kid in a classroom and view the teacher from their perspective, not just from an evaluation perspective or a coaching mindset or anything like that. 00:19:18.543 --> 00:19:20.103 Thank you for that perspective, Cheryl. 00:19:20.628 --> 00:19:28.188 Cheryl Johnson: And just on a brief note on the end here I'm heavily involved in you want to talk about the two most contentious topics in the world, religion and politics, right? 00:19:28.668 --> 00:19:32.828 And I have a Sunday night group and we talk so much about harmony. 00:19:33.493 --> 00:19:49.343 And just building unity and bridging divides and just the small number of people in the group and just, we've talked, I just went to lunch and just got home from lunch at 630 at night with somebody with a member of one of my groups. 00:19:49.343 --> 00:19:53.363 And she says, I love coming to your group because I feel better. 00:19:53.363 --> 00:19:56.923 And she says, even though we're all on zoom, I feel connected to people. 00:19:58.963 --> 00:19:59.533 Nick Davies: That's cool. 00:19:59.943 --> 00:20:01.103 Cheryl, this was super fun. 00:20:01.173 --> 00:20:06.903 Thank you for sharing all your perspectives and letting us know about your book, The Ambition Quotient. 00:20:07.173 --> 00:20:09.343 And so just want to say thank you so much. 00:20:09.833 --> 00:20:11.063 Cheryl Johnson: Thank you so much for having me. 00:20:11.763 --> 00:20:12.073 Nick Davies: Of course. 00:20:12.123 --> 00:20:12.553 Take care. 00:20:12.933 --> 00:20:13.213 Cheryl Johnson: Bye.