Spencer Horn 00:09 - 00:33 Welcome everyone to Teams Unleashed. This is the podcast where we explore the art and science of team coaching and how to truly unlock the power and human potential of teams. I'm your host, Spencer Horn, and I'm president of Team Coaching International. One of the biggest shifts that is happening in the coaching industry today is this. Spencer Horn 00:34 - 00:56 We are moving from coaching individuals to coaching teams as a system. And today, our amazing guest is Jane Zhang, who is founder and CEO of Talent Insight in Dusseldorf. She is an advanced, I got to talk about you before we talk, Jane. She's an advanced certified team coach. Spencer Horn 00:56 - 01:10 She is a master certified coach. She is a certified team performance coach and ORSC certified coach. She is, and she has a CPCC. I mean, I got a lot of, uh, alphabets behind your name here. Spencer Horn 01:11 - 01:46 And she has been a pioneer in team coaching with over 28 years of HR experience in HR management, people development, and executive coaching. And she specializes in helping leaders and teams unlock their potential, build trust, achieve sustainable success through team coaching. She has done this for so long, founded this company in 2011, Talent Insights in China. and now you are based in Dusseldorf and working with European companies that are doing business in China. Spencer Horn 01:47 - 02:13 Let me just give our listeners a sense of some of the clients, the quality of the clients that you have worked with and are working with. Clients like BMW, Volvo, Dow, Daimler, Cummings, AMD, Kikert, Pfizer, Merck, Bayer, Honeywell, Shell, Disney, Samsung. That's not even half the list of clients that you work with. And what that says, these are very, very high quality organizations. Spencer Horn 02:14 - 02:38 And they have chosen Jane and her organization to help them be their best. And that's what team coaching is all about, is to unlock the potential of people. And today, we are specifically going to be talking about how one team transformed by changing DNA. And we're going to talk all about what is that DNA? Spencer Horn 02:38 - 02:41 How did they transform? Jane, welcome to the show. Jane Zhang 02:42 - 03:00 Thank you so much, Spencer. And then when you list down all these customers, like you said, maybe I'm just part of them. And I feel like I really just appreciate, so much appreciation, because that allows me to witness so many transformations in the teams. Spencer Horn 03:01 - 03:03 It's really a gift, isn't it? Jane Zhang 03:03 - 03:05 Yeah, yeah. Spencer Horn 03:05 - 03:16 You feel emotional because of the work we get to do with human beings, and they're creating so many great projects and outcomes in the world, and you get to participate in that. Jane Zhang 03:17 - 03:33 Exactly. And then they really let us witness that because a lot of vulnerability, a lot of hard time, a lot of transformation. So we are so honored. I mean, as team coach, I'm so honored to witness that. Spencer Horn 03:34 - 03:41 Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's get into that. So first of all, for our listeners who don't know you, how did you get into coaching? Spencer Horn 03:41 - 03:49 Tell us a little bit about your career. in HR and then in executive coaching and eventually into team coaching. Tell us a little bit about your story. Jane Zhang 03:50 - 04:02 Yeah, it's a long story. I was HR before. And then, you know, as Chinese, we set goals. Goal very important for us, result orientated. Jane Zhang 04:02 - 04:32 So I set the goal is like, OK, now is great China HR head and the next step APAC and then next step, maybe go to corporate. So that's so-called the career path I kind of designed by myself or for myself. And then but one day when I joined the CTI, Coactive Coaching, a powerful question kind of hit me, like, who are you without your name card? And I think, oh, who am I? Jane Zhang 04:32 - 04:43 Without the title, without, yeah. So who are you? I think, yeah, because I work with, you know, all these technical people, I think engineers and all this. Yeah. Jane Zhang 04:43 - 04:55 They have something right for HR, I think. Oh, yeah. I support them or a lot of time is just support them. And if you put me on the road, I don't know at that time who am I. Jane Zhang 04:55 - 05:16 So that started my reflection and also the question of who I want to be. And at that time, CTI just came to China and I was so lucky. I became the first batch of leaders for them from room leader, supervisor and examiner. So that started my coaching journey. Jane Zhang 05:16 - 05:17 Yeah. Spencer Horn 05:17 - 05:47 Yeah, and there was an individual that was associated with CTI, and that was Phil Sandahl. He helped write a lot of their programs, their books, and their systems. And Phil, along with Alexis Phillips, they started a company 20 years ago. by the name of Team Coaching International, and they went to the ICF conference and said, we want to present this idea of team coaching. Spencer Horn 05:48 - 06:00 And 20 years ago, it was not very well known. So how did you get connected with Team Coaching International, making that transition from executive coach to team coach? Jane Zhang 06:01 - 06:22 Yeah, this is a really interesting question. And that's the question really bridged me, you know, bridged Talent Insight and TCI, Team Coaching International. At that time, you know, Phil's book called Active Coaching is so famous. And then by Stephen Covey, he said this is the Bible for coaching, right? Jane Zhang 06:22 - 06:55 So at that time, my leader, my teacher in CTI, kind of ask like, hey, there is, you know, Phil is looking for someone who can represent him and then can start team coaching in China. And then that time we just started like coaching and group coaching. And then also because I was HR before, I would think about how to bring coaching, such a wonderful tools to cooperate. And then we designed a program to focus on business. Jane Zhang 06:56 - 07:09 And then there was a call with Phil I think it's like 90 minutes. We talked about this. I say, I just introduced my company. I said, I really want to really bring coaching, but not like fluffy, fluffy parts. Jane Zhang 07:09 - 07:42 Sometimes the business leaders, they don't get it. And then also the culture piece also, you know, like how we can bridge that and also really help the business leaders to see the effect, the powerfulness of coaching. And then Phil said, so at that moment, I think we really already clicked. And he said in Europe, in US, so many people, they spend money, spend energy, time to learn coaching, but end up coaching as a hobby or, you know, like not really a career. Jane Zhang 07:42 - 08:13 So he thought about how can we bring this coaching, such a powerful coaching to business and help the business to see the result and even can measure. And I said, wow, can measure. So So we start that conversation and then from the, I think value wise and also like the deep level, like we really want to serve the business and then also kind of help the business to see we can support them and not, you cannot just cut the people. This half go to business, this half go to work. Jane Zhang 08:13 - 08:28 This is a whole person and a whole system, whole team. So at that point, I think we clicked. That was 2011, end of 2011 and start from 2012. we really bring, you know, all this certification program to China. Jane Zhang 08:29 - 08:30 So that was the start. Spencer Horn 08:31 - 08:50 Yeah. looking for this while you were talking. And that's the book that Phil helped to write with Laura Whitworth. And then they've written another book called Teams Unleashed, which is the name of our podcast. Spencer Horn 08:50 - 09:02 You said so many important things. I just want to highlight a few things. You know, in the very beginning of our podcast, we were getting a little bit emotional about the work. And people listening to that may have thought that was fluffy. Spencer Horn 09:02 - 09:28 But what is interesting when you talk about how you are so driven and results oriented, the reason why we get emotional is because we are helping people achieve real results. We are helping them make real changes in their lives and in their business. And I love the fact that you, you know, so many people say, well, I'm different at home than I am at work. No, what happens at work? Spencer Horn 09:29 - 09:41 impacts you at home. What happens at home impacts you at work. So when you say we treat the whole person, it impacts every part of their life. And that is very, very powerful. Spencer Horn 09:41 - 10:08 And it's not fluffy because it comes down to the fact that we believe teams exist for one purpose, and that's to produce results. It doesn't matter if you're a non-profit, that means you are creating more value for your constituents, your community. If it's government, same thing, services for the community. For-profit is how do we create sustainable profitability so that companies continue to do the good work that they do. Spencer Horn 10:08 - 10:30 So it is very defined. I think it really gets into DNA of an organization And I love this metaphor that you use, and we'll get to that. But the DNA, what is the DNA of the organization that enables it to be successful or struggle, right? I mean, that's what you're looking at there. Spencer Horn 10:30 - 10:36 We're looking at it very scientifically. I love that you bring in biology. Jane Zhang 10:37 - 11:27 Yeah, exactly. I think we know a lot of tools like they talk about like how to make a team successful, different tools. What I like about TCI, about Phil and Alex is what they created is this is so much like one side you can hold on something is really solid you you can measure and you know what are the elements you need to look into deep dive and on the other side it's so connected uh with people with what you're thinking with emotion the soft part so uh phil always say if team i mean team exists is to deliver results if you are really there is no result and then the team doesn't need to exist. Jane Zhang 11:27 - 11:39 This sounds very hard, but on the other side, this is business. This is the hard truth. On the other side, like if you just drive KPI, KPI, KPI, and many companies, they're doing that. They're still doing that, right? Jane Zhang 11:39 - 12:01 So the thing is that people just feel the leader feels so exhausted and the whole team also feel like really dry, right? So it's no fun to work. And I think about 24 hours, you work eight hours and this is one third of your life. And then with your eyes widely open, consciously, and this is life. Jane Zhang 12:01 - 12:24 So if we improve that part of life, the quality of that part of life, actually we are really improve the quality of whole life. So I think the TCI part is really bring that part nicely within like result and also positivity. So productivity and positivity, both sides need to wave together. Spencer Horn 12:24 - 12:46 And so what you're saying is if a company is too focused on productivity, then they shrivel up and can't sustain that. However, if they're too focused on positivity, on the relationships, then nothing is getting done and they likewise aren't successful. But there has to be a balance, right? And so how do we measure the success? Spencer Horn 12:46 - 13:12 It's the relationships enable the work to go forward. And it's very, very clear that you have done a great job in creating relationships with your clients. They obviously trust you and they continue to hire Talent Insights to deliver your team coaching services and other services that you provide. So let's jump in, if we can, and talk about an example of how team coaching works. Spencer Horn 13:14 - 13:25 Let's talk about a team that you worked with. that was maybe having challenges. I have a slide, do you want me to put that up? Jane Zhang 13:25 - 13:38 for people to look at. This is a company that we work with at that time. They're really facing a lot of challenges. So one thing is their market is declining. Jane Zhang 13:39 - 14:03 And also there's a lot of organization change, top-down organization change. And interesting enough, it's like maybe you know, you also encounter that when the organization change, they're not just the finalized the change. In between of the change, something other things also kind of continuous adjust. It's like the plane, the aeroplane need to fly in between, you need to repair the aeroplane. Jane Zhang 14:04 - 14:26 So it's a lot of change plus change. And at the same time is you will see the department because of matrix organization and some internal competition as well. So the local leaders, they report to corporate. I think only, if I remember correct, only four people they have solid line reporting, the rest all dot line reporting relationships. Jane Zhang 14:26 - 14:43 So a lot of KPI, actually they fight with each other as well, people and KPI. So it's a lot of challenges there. Yeah. And so you can imagine like ambiguity is happening and here is internal competition. Jane Zhang 14:43 - 14:48 So the morale is also not that high. So these are the difficulties when we work with them. Spencer Horn 14:48 - 15:03 Yeah. So very, very challenging. And what's interesting is this is not unique to this organization, right? I mean, there are We know that statistically that less than 10% of teams around the world are what we call high performing. Spencer Horn 15:03 - 15:21 So most 90% of teams are experiencing some kinds of challenges, but these seem like big challenges. So let's, yes, let's get into, what did the leaders think about the issue? What did they think the issue were? Jane Zhang 15:22 - 15:52 At that time, the leader who engages is the head of the organization, and his goal is to deliver the total commercial target. So there is a target he needs to deliver. So it means like people not reporting to him, most of the people not reporting to him, only four people, but he needs to hold the team together and deliver that particular result, right? So the challenge you can imagine that the salespeople, they just want safety stock there. Jane Zhang 15:52 - 16:10 However, the warehouse people, logistic people, they have their own thoughts. And people, they just cannot work together. um, you know, really in aligned goal with aligned goal. And also on the other side for him is, uh, this is very obvious results. Jane Zhang 16:10 - 16:20 So if you just say one goal for him is to, I can achieve my business result and these people can work as a team. So this is his headache. Spencer Horn 16:20 - 16:30 Yeah. That's, that's great. So they, and sometimes have you seen that the leader thinks the, the problem is different than it actually is. Jane Zhang 16:32 - 17:01 Yeah, sometimes I think this leader is quite, how to say, advanced in terms of leadership. He really thinks there is a leadership issue also, not just, you know, this KPI, KPI, only the number. And also, he's not thinking it's just one particular person's issue. And then many of our clients start the business like, hey, Jane, I think this one and that one, you know, that department not working well. Jane Zhang 17:01 - 17:16 Maybe these two leaders have problem. Can you help me to fix them? You know, and sometimes they don't see their own problem. So, but for this leader, I think is quite, I say quite advanced means like, He really see he's part of that as well. Jane Zhang 17:16 - 17:18 So he said, can you do something? Spencer Horn 17:18 - 17:44 When you have a leader like that, then it's so much easier when because so much of the work that what we do is creating self-awareness, right? Not only for the leader, but for the system. A team coach goes in to help the system really understand itself. And so we reveal the dynamics of the system to itself. Spencer Horn 17:44 - 18:01 And one of the ways that we do that is with metrics. One way, it starts with metrics. Of course, it's the skill of the coach that really reflects the system back to the leaders and to the people in the group. Yet, this is where I think the DNA comes in. Spencer Horn 18:01 - 18:09 talk a little bit about when you looked deeper, what was really going on beneath the surface? What was happening beneath the surface? Jane Zhang 18:10 - 18:32 Yeah, so I when we work with them, we start with some interviews before the workshop. And then we start to hear a lot of like, you know, we can hear the message is like, I work so hard. I already try my 150% efforts, almost like that. So everyone trying hard. Jane Zhang 18:32 - 18:53 And then, however, the result is not good. And then this is the common, how to say, common message at that time. And then on the other side, we also, the good thing is that people, they want to see the change. On the other side, they feel like we have no other choices because we work so hard already, right? Jane Zhang 18:54 - 19:17 And then when we really go further and then not only just talk to them, but also have the TDA assessment applied. And then we found out actually there were a few really key areas. We call it acupuncture point, or we say the DNA, you find the DNA where it's wrong, right? Really beneath the system. Jane Zhang 19:17 - 19:51 So what we found out is that they, For example, they have conflict, they don't know how to express that conflict because they involve multicultural inside. And then sometimes they need to talk about corporate and different culture, how to deliver the message and how to express your disagreement. between departments, so communication, constructive interaction. It sounds like a very basic thing, communication, and then many 500 fortune companies, they provide this kind of training. Jane Zhang 19:51 - 20:02 You never think about Yeah, communication, but actually communication is very key, but for them, especially is constructive interaction, like how to express the different opinion in a healthy way. Spencer Horn 20:02 - 20:04 How to disagree, right? Jane Zhang 20:04 - 20:07 How to, how to, yes, yes. Spencer Horn 20:07 - 20:23 Jane, I had a mentor, I'm sorry, I had a mentor that said the number one problem in business is communication. Literally, that was what he said, because it's just almost always comes down to some kind of communication issue. So keep going, yes. Jane Zhang 20:24 - 20:45 Yeah, yeah, yeah. So like you said, without this basic thing, if you don't debate, you don't argue in a healthy way, then actually the alignment is not there. So in that sense, a lot of places is missing alignment. Even you work hard, but actually in a wrong way, right? Jane Zhang 20:45 - 21:04 People just use their strengths, their efforts in different way, quite distracted. and dilute a lot of efforts. And on the other side is that because they are so, how to say, they're so proud of their own department. So in that sense, they work for them own, they work for the KPI. Jane Zhang 21:05 - 21:21 So they want to show like my department is great. So the accountability, they draw a very clear line, this is my territory. So in that sense also, you kind of see the symptom work in silo. Yeah, so these are also the thing. Jane Zhang 21:21 - 21:39 So with all this trust is also score very low. you can see the trust law. However, according to my experience, many teams, they will show trust is low. However, you cannot just walk on the trust. Jane Zhang 21:39 - 21:57 Like you just cannot force people like you love these people, or you trust these people, we cannot force. However, it takes time. So in team coaching is a journey. So when we discover all these areas, And then we kind of discuss with the leader, like, what do you see? Jane Zhang 21:57 - 22:18 And then what's most urgent for you? And also the team, they kind of find out. The interesting thing for team coaching is not we as team coach to say, hey, you need to improve this four areas. Actually, when we talk to the head of the organization, we already sense there are some areas need to improve. Jane Zhang 22:18 - 22:24 However, in no use. They need to see these areas by themselves, then they can reflect. Spencer Horn 22:24 - 22:26 Can I show some of those areas that you look at? Jane Zhang 22:27 - 22:28 Yeah, please. Spencer Horn 22:28 - 23:05 So this is some of the DNA, if you're watching this, that she's talking about, that they're measuring. So they're measuring It looks like the productivity gene, right, for DNA, and it has team leadership, their decision-making ability, how accountable, you were talking about accountability. And it's so funny, you know what came to mind when you were discussing that team, that they were proud of their results. It's like being on a sports team and you did all your individual effort, but you lost as a team. Spencer Horn 23:06 - 23:17 But you're still proud because I got my goals, but the defense didn't do their job, but you still lost as a team. That's the issue is you can't win even if the whole team is losing. Jane Zhang 23:19 - 23:35 Yeah. So at that time when like their left brain, theoretically, they probably know, yeah, we need to win together, we need to achieve that. And then part of the small self still so proud, you know, I'm good, you know, that's the human side, right? Spencer Horn 23:36 - 24:04 So, yeah. So you're measuring these genes, how are they using their resources, how are they setting goals, and how proactive are they? But on the other side, you're also measuring what you talked about, trust. And in some cases, it's taken them years to erode trust and to create an environment where trust is not thriving, where they may struggle with that constructive interaction, which is the disagreement that you talked about. Spencer Horn 24:05 - 24:23 And so no wonder that they may have optimism issues. because they're giving all of this effort. Much of it is being dragged away by the fact that they don't communicate well, that they're working against each other. And so it's like they're putting all this effort, but it's not going into productive results. Spencer Horn 24:24 - 24:28 So you're measuring each of these elements on the team, right? Jane Zhang 24:29 - 25:11 Yes, we measure them and then each like elements we have some questions behind and then but these are I like these we call DNA elements is so easy to map with the company like the leadership competence so easy there is no much jargon like oh difficult to understand very easy to understand and also it's easy to kind of identify like which area you want to make a change because then it's easy for team to own that, to have that ownership, to have that discussion. Otherwise they will rely on you. Even you say team coach, they just rely on you. Jane Zhang 25:11 - 25:15 You tell us, what should we do? You solve the problem, right? Spencer Horn 25:16 - 25:21 They're looking to you to save them when in fact you're coming in to teach them to save themselves. Jane Zhang 25:22 - 25:55 Yeah, yeah. And we even don't teach when the team coaching design that Phil already did. Yes, what he, I think the beauty of that is like you came in without sensing you are in a team coaching. So just for example, instead of teach them say, hey, you know what, best team they had these dimensions, instead of doing that, just invite them to talk about, hey, what's your best experience about a great team in your past experience can be a you know, football team, can Jane Zhang 25:55 - 26:09 be any team or previous team or just the current team. So everyone, you know, not this team, but the other team, they hate each other, you know, sometimes. Merge acquisition team, they really don't like each other. You can see the gesture, how they sit. Jane Zhang 26:09 - 26:27 However, when they come to this part, like talk about your own experience, the best experience, the peak experience about team, they feel so proud of that. And then easily they open themselves. So in that sense, we say, hey, what did you discover after hearing all these stories? Spencer Horn 26:28 - 26:38 Oh, yeah, right. The word teach came out of my mouth, but it's not what we're doing. You're absolutely right. I mean, even when it comes to accountability, they struggle with it. Spencer Horn 26:38 - 26:58 We are not coming in and telling you, here's how you hold each other accountable. Through coaching, we are creating awareness around what the lack of accountability looks like and if that's something they want to maintain and what they want to do. And they literally will learn to solve their own problems. So this brings up an interesting question for me. Spencer Horn 26:58 - 27:09 So you came into this organization. They had all these challenges. Sometimes it took years for them to get there. How long does it take before team coaching starts producing results? Spencer Horn 27:10 - 27:25 And I'm hearing you say that you're going to start working on certain problems, the ones that are the biggest issues first, not all the problems, because it's going to happen over time. But how long before you start seeing a shift, results start improving? Jane Zhang 27:26 - 27:40 This is a good question. So to answer, actually, there's two answers. One, to see the whole result, the whole journey, it took us eight months, eight to 10 months, actually. Eight, yeah. Jane Zhang 27:40 - 27:53 I'm sorry, 10 months, this case, 10 months. That's not very long. Yeah, yeah. However, when we see the change, after the first coaching session, it already show up. Jane Zhang 27:53 - 28:20 So, yeah, so give you one example, we have an exercise talk about me and we right so team coaching, we have a lot of topic but one key line of the threat, let's say, is to move the individual me to a we. Sometime we say us, right? So this is something interesting when we talk about, like, who are you? Like, what brings you here or why you are here? Jane Zhang 28:21 - 28:52 And then the other people will share, you know, when they talk about me, it's so fluent. But when they talk about we, like, we are we, so they don't realize that is really we. And then they started to talk about build on each other. Even after that simple exercise, they change their chair and then from move from me to we, they start to look at each other, create that eye contact, and then let the space inform them like, what we are doing here. Jane Zhang 28:53 - 29:05 You receive, you guys are so excellent people. You receive hunter calls every day. So what makes you still stay here? What you want to achieve with this particular group of people at this stage? Jane Zhang 29:05 - 29:25 So they start to build on and on, and then there's moment, it just show up. Like they find that spot, why we are here. So they will create, we call it team purpose, but it's not like a big thing or every company has... Spencer Horn 29:25 - 29:29 It's not what they put on their website, right? No, it's how they decide to work together. Jane Zhang 29:30 - 29:37 Exactly. Exactly. So just Monday, you open your eyes. You think that is meaningful. Jane Zhang 29:38 - 29:55 If I go and see this group of people, I work with them. We create something together and we create the legend together. So this is something once that show up, not necessarily perfect words even. So you will sense the system kind of something changed. Jane Zhang 29:56 - 29:56 Yeah. Spencer Horn 29:56 - 30:15 So I had to do that because I love what you said. We are going to create a legend. I think that is fantastic. And I love what you're saying. Spencer Horn 30:16 - 30:52 And my experience has been the same, Jane, is that in a day to two days, you will see major shifts. The ongoing work is there to help fine-tune. And it's not as heavy as that first two days, but these are touches that are just continuing to tweak and to keep that organizational shift happening. So what was it that you actually did to make the first shift with this team? Spencer Horn 30:54 - 30:58 What was the thing that started to make things change right away? Jane Zhang 31:01 - 31:33 One thing I think is from mindset wise, I think they realized while there is a we, suddenly they feel the linkage among each other. I think that's the one that they see the the line, which they didn't see before, you know, the connections, I think this is one. And they create that kind of belongings and then purpose, this is one. When we really started the team coaching for follow up sessions, and each session, we really, really go deeper, and then connect with their daily work. Jane Zhang 31:33 - 31:48 And then what's the business I mean, pain points for them. So, for example, earlier I mentioned that their KPI fight with each other, right, so much. Of course, you can run a business meeting, you say, hey, what's your KPI? What's my KPI? Jane Zhang 31:48 - 32:27 And people just they don't care like you just submit your ones and then they but for this session they really start from the we point of view and then also they challenge each other but at that moment the challenge is really so you can see people kind of open their heart to listen and then the other side willing to give input so That's why sometimes we talk to business, like if you want to work on your strategy, work on other things, it's not that these people cannot create idea, but just their heart not there. The system, we say the system not ready yet. So better do team coaching first. Jane Zhang 32:27 - 32:31 And then you start with the business discussion. Spencer Horn 32:31 - 32:48 Such a good point. So I have a brand new coach. She just certified and hasn't even gone through the second part of team coaching certification. She went through what we call the master class and a great foundation for team coaching. Spencer Horn 32:48 - 32:59 And then there's a you know, more to practice and deepen. But she is a very accomplished coach. She worked with GE for many years. She works with high net worth individuals. Spencer Horn 33:00 - 33:18 She just did her first diagnostic just this last week. And what she reported is, I mean, these are, again, high performing, high net worth individuals. They want to rush to solution. They want to rush to the strategy, don't they, Jane? Spencer Horn 33:19 - 33:32 It's all about measurement and KPIs. And what you're saying is, well, hold on. If you keep doing what you're doing, you're going to continue to get the same results. You've got to slow down. Spencer Horn 33:32 - 33:42 Slow down and solve the fundamental, the foundational issues that are taking people's focus away from the work that you actually need them to do. Jane Zhang 33:44 - 33:53 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like what you said. This is really the pattern. People, if it doesn't work, they just work harder and faster and repeat it. Spencer Horn 33:54 - 34:01 They're tired. They're working 100% already. But that adds to the hopelessness. How can we get any better? Spencer Horn 34:01 - 34:02 We can't work any harder. Jane Zhang 34:03 - 34:05 Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like this. Spencer Horn 34:05 - 34:08 But you have a process. I'm sorry. Yeah. Jane Zhang 34:09 - 34:32 Yeah. You know, like sometimes, you know, so many companies now, especially from one country moved to another country, for example, a Chinese company invest overseeing Europe in other countries. And when things not coming, they think, how can I work harder or I bring my own people. So, so this is something people all want to, you know, stay in their own comfortable zone. Jane Zhang 34:32 - 34:33 Right. So. Spencer Horn 34:33 - 34:42 Yeah, so you have a process that you run. Yeah. And so do you want to describe this to our listeners? Jane Zhang 34:43 - 35:04 OK, yeah, sure. So like we said, team coaching, we want to really help the team to deliver results. So how can we support them to have a really concrete, solid result? This process is like first, at very beginning, we have results review. Jane Zhang 35:04 - 35:29 So this result review is the TDA assessment. We call team diagnostic analysis. is a kind of a system 80 questions and then this is will help you to see a snapshot where are we now because so often we just want to go where we want to go and then we work on strategy we work on a lot of things in future. Jane Zhang 35:29 - 36:00 And many companies fail, not because of the future picture not clear, but also because the current situation is really not clear enough. It's like we drive, keying, you know, the destination, the GPS. Without this A, the A have so many A, 14 people, senior team leader, they have 14 different A's, but you want to arrive the same B, it doesn't work. Yeah. Spencer Horn 36:00 - 36:17 And it looks like through that team diagnostic that you identified four areas that really needed focus. Because there are 14 elements of your DNA, right? I mean, seven of the productivity and seven of the positivity. So what did you identify was the issue? Jane Zhang 36:20 - 36:43 Yeah. If you look at the process itself, it's like the team, they start to get together and then identify, have very good conversation, really qualified conversation. And then they identify, like, we help them. Of course, team coach will ask a lot of questions. Jane Zhang 36:43 - 37:05 And then in the end, we kind of draw a conclusion, say, hey, we want to change this area, that area, and then as coach, we also help them to keep the balance. It's not everything rely, really rely on positivity or productivity. So half, half. So for this case, One side they want to improve is accountability and alignment. Jane Zhang 37:05 - 37:26 And on the other side, we say the soft part, the positivity side is trust and constructive interaction. So this has helped the team kind of work together in a nice way. And then how to build this trust, because normally people talk about trust. A lot of times they talk about it and they feel it, like this is important. Spencer Horn 37:27 - 37:29 It's hard for them to define, isn't it? Jane Zhang 37:29 - 37:44 Exactly. It's how to work on it, how to define, how much trust do I have now? But I like the tool is like you help people identify, okay, the six or the five. So what's going on now? Jane Zhang 37:44 - 37:55 And what do you see that in your daily life, in your daily work? And what's your expectation? And then what are the things happening? So help the team really go to the reality. Jane Zhang 37:55 - 38:19 And then also this is so real. I mean, the conversation is really based on the facts. So this is something help the team also get internal thermometer, like in future they know, okay, so where are we now? And then also, for example, we will share with them, if you look at the team, whether they trust enough or not, just look at their meetings. Jane Zhang 38:19 - 38:37 If everyone just report, you know, how great I am, my department and this and that, This is one team, right? And on the other side, some people, they just play computer and then maybe just pretend very busy. And then you just report your department and I wait for my turn, right? Many companies run meetings like that. Jane Zhang 38:37 - 39:00 And on the other side, some companies, the really great team, what they talk, you can listen to their warnings like, hey, look, here might be a potential risk. Yeah, or I just found in my department and I want to alert you guys and or I want to seek your input. Or they will say give some suggestions to other departments. Spencer Horn 39:00 - 39:28 If you're a business leader right now listening to Jane, And one of your departments said, hey, you know, we have really been taking a look at what's going on and we have we have concerns. Would you be thrilled? Or would you be concerned? I'd be thrilled because now it's not only me that is, you know, focused on strategic thinking, there's ownership throughout the entire organization. Spencer Horn 39:29 - 39:34 But Jane, what does it take for an organization to have that level of vulnerability? Jane Zhang 39:36 - 39:55 Yeah, so on one side, I mean, there's a few different dimensions. One is that allow people to talk about this, like how, what is trust and how important it is for them, right? So start with their life. I really like to connect with life and team coaching itself. Jane Zhang 39:55 - 40:16 So it's just so connected, right? When we talk about constructive interaction, the toxin thing, and then, you know, one of the leader, they will print out this and then share with the family and then use cartoon, work with the kids. And then they share with the team, say, you know what, I did this. And other team members say, can you print it out? Jane Zhang 40:16 - 40:34 I also want that. Just imagine if your team leaders, they want to use that tool in their own family. And then that shows what kind of, you know, like openness or commitment. Definitely they will bring that into their you know, work as well. Jane Zhang 40:34 - 40:55 So these are the things we will bring the link, help them understand. If you want to see trust and what symptoms, what the things, if you have something, you talk to your friend, which one you will talk? You will talk about, oh, you change your car, you change your house, or you change whatever, you promote it, or you talk with someone like, you know what? I got some difficulty here. Jane Zhang 40:55 - 41:05 You know what? I really struggled with the position, or I have some problem with my marriage. So who is, you know, what is trust? Which one, right? Jane Zhang 41:06 - 41:32 So in that sense, the senior leaders, I mean, they easily for them to understand, identify the difference between trust and then social trust, and then really deep trust, right? Slowly bring in. And then we will also help them to, we will introduce some activities. For these activities, normally, For each follow-up session, we will bring in one activity to help them to review themselves. Jane Zhang 41:33 - 41:51 For example, accountability, then we will bring some activity they didn't know they are headquartered or not headquartered, but they try so hard to work with their own. And then, you know, then it turned out to be that you're too siloed. But if you ask if they work in silo, of course not. You know, I have a big heart. Spencer Horn 41:51 - 41:58 I love that you're bringing this up. So what did Phil always used to say, Jane? How a team does anything. Jane Zhang 41:59 - 41:59 Yeah. Spencer Horn 42:00 - 42:09 His team does everything. Right? Yes. So all you have to do is introduce an activity, a game, and their real nature comes out. Jane Zhang 42:10 - 42:27 Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then don't waste time to do warm up or ice break exercise. I mean, we do need warm up, do need ice break, but build in. So for example, this follow up session is about accountability. Jane Zhang 42:28 - 42:54 And then you just design all the activities around that to review the reality Okay, so where are they? So the people, if you say, I'm silo, I don't want to say that, right? I don't see that, but not because of only people don't see that, but sometimes we also don't want to admit, or we have blind spot, who knows, right? But the activity itself will reveal this in a such a nice way. Jane Zhang 42:54 - 42:59 And then people talk about it. And then normally we will say, what's your experience? What's your learning about yourself? Spencer Horn 42:59 - 43:07 Oh yeah, that does happen. That really does. Yes. And then they can begin to admit, oh yeah, that's exactly how it shows up. Spencer Horn 43:07 - 43:32 Because we always want to make ourselves look better than we are. It's called the fundamental attribution error. We attribute other people's behavior as having bad intentions, but we always have good intentions. And so we judge ourselves in America, there's research, psychological research that says 90% of Americans think that they're excellent drivers. Spencer Horn 43:33 - 44:05 And 40% of Americans think they're the best drivers that they know. So, and 80% of managers, according to Tomasz Czemoro-Pramuzyk, 80% of managers think that they're above average as managers. So we overestimate always, right, our impact. I wanna tell, I just wanna go back to something that you said, and if you're listening to this and saying, why would we want to get into their personal life? Spencer Horn 44:05 - 44:29 Why would we wanna focus on that? It is so important, and I want to illustrate a story. If you've heard of Clayton Christensen, he is the thought leader who passed away three years ago, I think. Harvard Business School professor, he was the individual who created the whole idea of disruptive technology, right? Spencer Horn 44:30 - 44:53 Disrupt your own business, he wrote the book, The Innovator's Dilemma. So the idea, if you don't disrupt your business, Blockbuster didn't go with the Netflix idea, and so they got replaced by Netflix. You have to disrupt your own business, and he was the one who created this. He created a company early in his career that did scientific research with MIT professors. Spencer Horn 44:53 - 45:13 So they were very advanced, doing research. And they had a lab technician, a woman who was responsible for validating all of the research that was going on. They had like 34 researchers, PhDs. And so they didn't have a lot of resources. Spencer Horn 45:13 - 45:27 They only had one validator. And she was constantly fighting to just keep her head above water. And every researcher thought their plan was the most important, right? They wanted to get their research validated now. Spencer Horn 45:28 - 45:42 And they had a company party in July. And Clayton Christensen was looking at all these employees. And he saw this woman who was in charge of validating all of the research. And he saw her with her two daughters and her husband. Spencer Horn 45:42 - 46:15 And in his mind's eye, he envisioned her coming home feeling unappreciated, overworked, complained to that you didn't get it to me fast enough, and argued with because my research is more important than so-and-so's, and having to deal with all this pressure and not feeling a sense of self-worth. Remember, without the title, who are you, right? Coming home and walking in the door to those two daughters and that husband. How would she feel? Spencer Horn 46:16 - 46:54 What is the energy that she's bringing into that home? How does she wake up the next day and how excited is she to go back to that work and fight that fight again with all those obnoxious egotistical you know, researchers. And then he flipped it and he envisioned her being appreciated and those researchers thanking her for all her effort and understanding the stress and worry that she had and letting her know how important she was to the organization and how much the relationships that you were talking about earlier, right? Spencer Horn 46:54 - 47:20 And now, at the end of the day, going home, having experienced that type of work culture, how she felt coming home to those two daughters and that husband, how that whole interaction in that evening changed and how that changed when she woke up in the morning and how excited she was to go fight the fight the next day. You cannot separate your individual life from your work life. It's just not possible. Spencer Horn 47:20 - 47:35 And so for those of you who are thinking, well, it's all about results. No. When you slow down and do a team diagnostic, you are doing the work of the business within that meeting. You are not just doing fluff to exactly what you said. Spencer Horn 47:36 - 47:42 You are actually moving the team forward and producing results in that diagnostic process. Jane Zhang 47:43 - 48:04 Yeah, and I really see that. So, for example, we say the constructive interaction, once they identify their own model, they will say, hey, actually, I will bring this to my family, I will talk to my wife, you know, I have that toxin. So sometimes, you know, do team coaching also benefit for the family? Exactly. Jane Zhang 48:04 - 48:23 And then they also hold the picture they want to reveal, like, you know, I'm this type, I'm really stone warning, I want you to remind me. So because this is sometimes awareness, you know that, but you cannot change, right? Because you inherited for so many years. But with your colleague, with your family, like you said, this is just so connected. Jane Zhang 48:24 - 48:41 And then you really can change as long as you open your heart. So sometimes we say team coaching, not just give the tools, maybe you look at the timeline, this is a tool, but if their heart not open, if they're the the quality of conversation is different, then it's totally different team coaching. Spencer Horn 48:41 - 48:54 So they started making a shift in this process. You identified those four areas, trust, accountability, constructive interaction, and alignment. What started to happen when they saw that? Jane Zhang 48:56 - 49:21 So this one, they even, I mean, when they identify, I mean, they identify five, six, and later on they debate, you know, they vote, they debate, and then they say why this is more important. So this is interesting. And once they define that, we work one by one, and then they volunteer as leader for each topic. And then later on in the company, actually, they spend specific time for follow up. Jane Zhang 49:21 - 49:49 internally, and then for their managed meeting, they also check back what's going on. In the end, they, especially for the, I think it's a start from constructive interaction already start to change the first follow up. And then the KPI one is so, so, so connect with what their, you know, the pain points, their business pain. So that creates a huge shift in corporate as well, how they see this team. Jane Zhang 49:50 - 50:23 So you can see, yeah, this slide is that overall productivity and positivity increased more than, you know, one is 16%, one is Yes, for accountability, it's really increased a lot. And then 29% alignment, trust and constructive interaction. And then you can see this circle actually is growing bigger, even some area, other areas also kind of expanded because they're so interconnected. Spencer Horn 50:24 - 50:39 Yeah. So if you think about this, so this is a polar diagram of the 14 elements that you measured. And you didn't just impact the four that were the biggest problem, you impacted all of them. And so think about this as an artery, right? Spencer Horn 50:39 - 51:04 If the dotted area was where the blood flow was before, now we're releasing more blood can actually flow to the organism. So for the same amount of effort, they're getting more results, more productivity out of the same exact team. I think this is such a cool diagram. And the measurable outcomes, what surprised you the most of those results? Jane Zhang 51:05 - 51:24 Yeah, I mean, when we see this results is for the accountability, really, at that time, they just told us, they share with us, they say, hey, we, sometimes we were volunteers say, what can I support you? Anything I can contribute to you? In the past, they just like have a fence, right? So this is my territory. Jane Zhang 51:24 - 51:47 But now they start to ask, offer their support. And then in many meetings, they have that discussion and contribution, this totally different quality. We heard about that, but when we see the number, we say, wow, this is something. And then especially the team, they said, after this team coaching, we feel like we are so strong, we can do, like nothing can defeat us, something like that. Jane Zhang 51:47 - 52:23 So what they said, and then later on, this company also experienced like merge, acquisition, some changes in the organization. But the team leaders, they still talk about this, team coaching, and then they bring this concept in their new organization. So we actually continue to serve them for different, you know, even after they kind of separated. But then they bring these seeds, like team coaching seeds, into different organizations because they see how team coaching brings the business change. Spencer Horn 52:24 - 52:41 You do a good job in coaching when the client no longer needs you. Our job is to help them to be productive without us. I'm going to use the word teaching them. We're coaching them to not need a coach. Spencer Horn 52:42 - 52:57 But what happens is life happens, mergers happen. new companies, new leaders, new dynamics. And so because they've seen those results before, they call you again. Jane, we need talent insights. Jane Zhang 52:59 - 53:10 Yeah, yeah. So later on, they actually find out the business numbers. Because what we show is just TDA, Team Diagnostic Analysis, the difference between before and after. Like, we always make jokes. Spencer Horn 53:10 - 53:12 What happened to the profit and loss statement? Jane Zhang 53:13 - 53:34 Yeah, so how about the business? What's the impact for business? So they share with us the big change in terms of their business KPI as well. The customer complaint dropped like 75% and then the delivery also has really shortened the time and accounts receivable. Jane Zhang 53:34 - 53:36 So a lot of numbers change. Yeah. Spencer Horn 53:36 - 53:47 Here are the results. 71% decline in business increase in delivery rate, 71%. And account receivable turnover was down almost 8%. Jane Zhang 53:47 - 53:59 Yeah. Yeah. And then this is the first time in the whole corporate for a team kind of win. I forgot the name. Jane Zhang 53:59 - 54:11 It's global premium. It's kind of a president award. So they won that award. not only because of one person or what, but this is because they build a team in such a way. Jane Zhang 54:11 - 54:17 And then they see the progress of this team. So because of this, they won the award. Spencer Horn 54:17 - 54:25 Yeah. I love that so much. Well, I can't believe we've almost been talking for an hour. Jane Zhang 54:25 - 54:33 I know. Yeah. If you're interested, there was some interview from this leader because he's, he really liked team coaching and then, yeah. So, Spencer Horn 54:33 - 54:48 Let's do a few more things. You actually put a slide together about TCI. What did you want to say about this? Jane Zhang 54:49 - 55:03 Yes, because I think we are, you know, like work with this CTI starting from 2012. And however, CTI already this year, I think it's 20 years, 20 years. Yes. Yes. Jane Zhang 55:04 - 55:15 Yes. And then I, I like this because now I work with a global company. Sometimes they need coaches in different countries. So for us, we really know because we train the trainer, right? Jane Zhang 55:15 - 55:51 Train the coaches. So we know really the, good coaches in different locations. And the other thing I love about this is because the database is not just the individual, you know, you check it, you have assessment, but it's for the whole team at this moment, not our assumption. Sometimes we also receive some team diagnostic, but this is more like as based on assumption, how this group people work together instead of just at this moment alive and real for this team. Jane Zhang 55:51 - 56:00 And then also we have a lot of data comparison, 6,000, more than 6,000 teams database there have before and after. Spencer Horn 56:00 - 56:26 So there's a, it's not, this is something that's been going on for a long time. We have a lot of validated results. Yes, yes. Because of your ongoing work with Team Coaching International, you are a trusted partner that is actually doing coaching certification and what which means you are delivering the level of professionalism for there's a lot of team coaching programs out there that are that are really good as a matter Spencer Horn 56:26 - 57:03 of fact some some of the TCI coaches are working for other other programs and They they were they were taught by TCI. They learned how to do it and I What I know and what I'm hearing is that those programs are good. However, if you want to be a coach that is ready to go immediately work with clients, the certification that Talent Insight and Team Coaching International does is really where you want to go. And so you are actually doing a certification masterclass in Europe in September. Spencer Horn 57:03 - 57:04 Is that right? Jane Zhang 57:05 - 57:32 Yeah, in September, September 22nd, I think. And that one is, again, I need to thank Phil, really honor Phil, because that was started many years ago, start the trial run in Shanghai, but now it's already seven years, I think. So it's really bringing the real practice into the class. So first three days is for class training. Jane Zhang 57:32 - 57:51 And then a lot of cases study and like a lab, bring the theory into the lab to practice. But the fourth day is to go to the real client. So we really, you know, have the TDA, have the interview already done for you. But as participants, you can go there to practice your coaching. Jane Zhang 57:51 - 57:59 And the last day, leaders will give you feedback. So that receive tremendous positive feedback on that. Yeah. Spencer Horn 57:59 - 58:36 What a great format. And that is hugely valuable if you want to develop the skills to be a team coach, to have great coaches that are helping you and an environment where you can practice those skills and get feedback. And if any good coach wants to have that feedback to always get better. You know, you put a slide up with, you talked about Phil, and here's Phil, and he and Alexis wrote a book called Teams Unleashed, and it looks like you've gotten that translated into Mandarin. Jane Zhang 58:36 - 58:40 Yeah, we translated it into Mandarin, and then now it's second edition already. Spencer Horn 58:41 - 58:59 Oh my goodness, that's fantastic. And it's such a great book, and it really teaches the process of team coaching and what we do on our certification. So it's a great companion to the certification. Well, we love the partnership that we have with you at Talent Insights. Spencer Horn 59:00 - 59:19 And you're based in Europe and in Asia. Right now you're in Dusseldorf, so it's afternoon, evening there. I'm so grateful, Jane, that you took some time I have one more question for you, for our listeners. And then as we end, if you don't mind, if you would just stay on for a moment with me. Spencer Horn 59:19 - 59:34 First of all, I want to put this slide back up. If people want to get a hold of you and learn more about Talent Insights, your training, your services, your coaching certification, what's the best number to reach you here? I mean, I put it up on the screen here. Jane Zhang 59:36 - 59:46 Yeah, you can check the internet there. I mean there is a link for our company and also my email address there. Yeah. Spencer Horn 59:47 - 1:00:17 Yeah, so jane.zing at talentinsight-europe.com. We also have talentinsight-europe.com, and that is a great place to go to learn about their courses, their certifications, and any other services that they have. Well, we are so grateful for the association and the great work that you and your, you have an incredible team. We didn't even talk about all your, your incredible team coaches that you have working with you. Spencer Horn 1:00:18 - 1:00:40 But here's my question for you, Jane. What is one of the biggest challenges that you have faced as a systems coach? And talk about how did you navigate it? What shows up that's, you know, it's not all, you know, we talk about how wonderful it is, but sometimes there are real issues that show up in the team coaching environment. Spencer Horn 1:00:40 - 1:00:45 And where did trusting that team coaching international process make a difference? Jane Zhang 1:00:46 - 1:01:07 I think for the, this is need to back to BD part, business development, like how you how you get engaged, how you engage your customer. This is very important. Sometime HR join our class, certification program, the class certification or training, right? So they think, wow, team coaching is good, right? Jane Zhang 1:01:07 - 1:01:26 So they want to bring this into their company. So they see some leaders have problems. So they say, Hey, can you do this for us? And then That is a good opportunity for you to start a business, but be careful, not just start the business directly, you need to talk to the leader and then also get the sense whether the leader is on. Jane Zhang 1:01:27 - 1:01:44 So because many times HR want to, sometimes, not many times, sometimes HR want to kind of use us to fix some business leaders. That doesn't work. So that is a trap. At very beginning of our business, we did that and then we experienced that. Jane Zhang 1:01:44 - 1:02:02 So try to avoid that trap. And then it's very important to have an open discussion with the business leaders and then sense whether they are at the right moment or not. Team coaching itself is great, but there's also team coaching moment. Spencer Horn 1:02:04 - 1:02:13 Yeah, I think that's really, really important. They're not ready for it, they're not going to show up. Yeah, and then you will... The leader will resist. Jane Zhang 1:02:15 - 1:02:31 Yes, they will pretend this is a training. They don't have really a good understanding of this. And then they will think this is sort of, you know, a program HR arranged, and then I need to go through with it. So, yeah, so Spencer Horn 1:02:31 - 1:03:02 I think that's really good advice. So if you're a coach listening to this, you know, you get a call from HR and you're so excited because you get to have an engagement and we all want to be busy with work. The problem with that is it's a, The engagement will end with that. If, however, you are doing it the right way, you are setting it up, you are taking the time to get the buy-in of that team leader, the results will be real. Spencer Horn 1:03:03 - 1:03:24 You will get more spinoff business over time from that because you did it the right way. I think that is brilliant, brilliant advice. Jane, thank you so much for your generosity coming on. And I know that there's so many coaches in the team coaching, you know, there's over 45 master certified coaches. Spencer Horn 1:03:24 - 1:03:34 that TCI's changed. I'd love for this community to stay in touch. You've found how to reach Jane. She's got such a wealth of knowledge. Spencer Horn 1:03:35 - 1:03:52 We need to support each other as coaches. If you're thinking about certifying, please reach out to Team Coaching International or Team Insights, as you see there, for that certification. Jane, I hope to talk to you again soon. Hang on the line with me as we wrap up. Spencer Horn 1:03:52 - 1:03:58 And thank you listeners, please like and subscribe Teams Unleashed, and we'll see you again next time. Jane Zhang 1:04:00 - 1:04:01