[00:00:00] Dan: Hello and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.

[00:00:13] Pia: And I am Pia Lee.

[00:00:15] Dan: You are indeed. You are indeed. And, uh, Pia, don't, before we get stuck into today's topic, it we, I wanted to ask you what sort of, um, yeah, what other conversations you are having with teams at the moment? How are, how are teams out there? It'd be really interesting to hear what you are, what you're seeing.

[00:00:30] Pia: There's a couple of things. So, uh, systemically, there's a lot of pressure in the system. People are busy. You know, I, I think one of the things that I focused on with the team was, you know, the, the tyranny of, busyness, not the busy, but the being busy, you know. depletes all human connection. And I, what I'm saying is, is that the, the busyness and this post, this post covid phase and all the insecurity in the world, and all the economic pressures were getting very transactional.

[00:01:03] So teams are not thinking about how they're operating. They're really doubling down on what. And particularly at the team level, we are seeing that group where people are almost becoming, um, becoming competitive with one another. So, and, and they haven't invested time, ' yeah, because they've been so focused on that transactional, they've lost the ability to build those human connections and relationships and also think strategically.

[00:01:37] So we tend to be operating from the protection of our KPIs rather than how we come together to achieve that bigger vision. And there's a bit in the, you know, because a lot of leadership development took a pause. During that time, we've afi some of those, some of those skills. And unless you've got a particular passion for it, the nature of that, of getting the job done and delivering is just creating a bit of tunnel vision. And, and I don't think that's anyone's fault. I think that's just trying to unpick what's, what's happening.

[00:02:13] Dan: and I suppose it is, as you say, system pressure on how do I deal with this? I, I, I've got personal, individual pressure and I feel a sense of threat, probably a lot of people, and I'm gonna knuckle down and make sure that I do my job. Whereas actually the job we've gotta do in teams is to. Push up and say, how do we do this? Because that unlocks multiple percentage points of performance.

[00:02:35] But, uh, yeah, it's, it's a tough job for everyone at the moment. I think it's a very challenging time. But our conversation today is definitely with a leader who sees that slightly differently, who has a take, takes a different approach, sees that leadership role as number one in order to harness and therefore deliver performance. Yeah, we're talking to our very own, uh, head of development at Squadify, Felipe Tabares, um, and, uh, yeah, I think that this is a, this is a wonderful conversation. Really heartwarming to see someone with this technical capability, but who sees their leadership role as, uh, something that they need to nurture and deliver. And, uh, yeah, he has some really profound thoughts about it. So let's go over and hear from Philippe now. 

[00:03:19] Pia: And it is our especially wonderful delight to have Felipe to Baris all the way from Columbia on our We, not me today. Welcome, Felipe.

[00:03:30] Felipe: Thank you so much, Pia.

[00:03:31] Pia: It's wonderful. So in full disclosure, we do, we do work together. We have a very strong and close tie around Squadify and um, Felipe is our amazing technical powerhouse that takes Dan and i's crazy ideas and translates them into something that really works on our platform. So we're gonna have a very interesting conversation because what we really want to delve into today is about the life of development teams and, um, and what happens there.

[00:04:03] So, you know the drill though, Felipe, you have to enter into the, um, torture chamber with Mr. Hammond first and to answer the questions that he, or the card that he's going to pick out for you at random. Honestly, we haven't

[00:04:19] Dan: It really is. I'm, I'm cut this

[00:04:21] Pia: make it even worse.

[00:04:22] Dan: I, I've been shuffling the pack and now I'm gonna cut it. I'm really hoping for something nice that Felipe likes because we owe you so much Felipe. So I hope this is an easy one. Oh, here we go. Um, the best piece of feedback I ever received.

[00:04:36] Felipe: Yeah, that's a good one. So actually, actually is, is a kind of obvious one for leaders and individual contributors of a team. It's, uh, learn to say no. So that's a super power actually more than, more than feedback that I have, i, I, I have received before, uh, you know, learning and I'm, I'm still learning actually how to say no to some things.

[00:05:02] Uh, and, uh, you know, when, when, when you say no, you feel like you are not committed or you are not enough, uh, contributing to the team. But, uh, actually. I have felt that when I say no to certain things, I'm actually contributing more. I'm actually focusing more on the proposed, and I'm actually doing more than saying yes. So I think that's, that's the feedback, the, the best one, so far. It's kind of obvious, but uh, it's been the best one.

[00:05:34] Pia: I think it's one we all struggle with, I think. And then being able to say no, that somebody isn't affronted. I mean, that's, that's like a sales job. That's that, that's amazing. That is that, that it seems like that's a perfect gift when I've said no,

[00:05:48] Dan: that's right. It, it, it, it, it's, it's, it's one of the, it's that sort of English way of only afterwards, I think, hold on a second. That was lovely, but he actually, he actually said no. 

[00:06:00] Pia: I think, I think, I think working with two English people has started to wear off on you. Felipe, I I it. Getting some interesting skills. 

[00:06:10] Dan: it's a good, it's a great start and a lovely, lovely place to start, Felipe. But, so tell us a little bit more about, about you Felipe, your, your little life story in a box.

[00:06:19] Felipe: Yeah. So, uh, nice to meet you all. Uh, and thanks for listening. I am Felipe from Colombia, South America. Not Columbia, by the way. Uh, it's Colombia. So I'm technology advisor. Uh, but I've been in, in the industry or the software around 16 or 17 years, uh, now. So playing several roles in innovation, engineering, working with, uh, teams. Uh, I started actually my career as a, as a software developer. So, uh, and, uh, my career evolved, uh, to be more part of the leadership teams, also the business, uh, operations and, uh, you know, both in the technical side and in the project management, people management as well.

[00:07:08] I love, uh, to provide or to give advisory, because of all the mistakes that I have, uh, done, uh, in the past, in my experience and I continue, continue, uh, having. So I, what I most enjoy of my career and, uh, you know, these, uh, leadership, uh, positions or role that I, that I have today is that I learn every single minute. That I spend with, uh, people. So, uh, you know, teams, uh, vendors slash providers, uh, clients, uh, any stakeholder, any people, uh, that I meet.

[00:07:50] Pia: So tell us a little bit about development teams and why those teams might be different or the same as other teams. So, you know, our, our listeners have come from such a broad background of corporations, communities, and, and indeed across multiple countries. But it'd be quite, I, I think development teams are quite a specific type of team, aren't they? And so that would be good for take us into, into, into a better understanding of it.

[00:08:23] Felipe: Yeah. So in, in the, in my experience, uh, development team is not that different, uh, to any other team. Uh, and I, I, I will give you, uh, my reasons. So I would say, what's a bit different from a, a development team is the grade of a specialty that we have. So the different roles, the, uh, technical landscape that we can handle in development teams. But I, if you compare this with any other team, so there is technical land, landscape, there's, there's product, process, people management. So it's, it's all the same. Uh, at the end of the day, it's the only difference is that, uh, developers probably, uh, have the idea in their minds that they do something, uh, really, really different than, uh, other teams. But at, at the end of the day, we are contributing to, uh, life in general, so impacting human lives.

[00:09:21] So we do software. Other people do kind of, uh, you know, accounting, finance. Uh, but at the end of the day, we're impacting human lives, uh, somehow. So it's not that different. It's, it is only the discipline. But, uh, let me give you my reasons why. In my opinion, it's not that different.

[00:09:38] So any team including development teams, uh, have a clear propose. So development teams. Uh, should have a clear purpose. So in this case, developing, uh, a piece of software or a, or a software application, uh, to perform any transaction or activity inside a company or, you know, uh, or for any process. We all have measurements in our development team. We measure, uh, lines of code, productivity. We measure also engagement.

[00:10:12] Uh, so software developers are, deal a bit with, uh, engagement because probably the high, uh, demand that we have in around the globe for developers. So the engagement and the, or, or keep these people engaged is a bit more difficult, uh, in my opinion. So we have a lot of competition. But we have also this, this is part of the measurements that we have for teams.

[00:10:37] Also, um, we need us in the other teams or, you know, that are not development teams. We need competent peoples or, or skilled people. So, uh, compare with the finance or the accounting team. So, you know, an accounting team, we need, uh, a good accountant, or, or, or people that are able to do forecasts and so on. Uh, it's similar in the, in our development team. So we need a skill, uh, a certain skillset that's required to, uh, achieve the goals. And also we, we need a shared fate, as in, you know, any other team. So what means that means what happens to one, happens to all the teams.

[00:11:20] So, so if you see these points or you listen these points, in this case, uh, I think we are not that different to other teams. So we pursue the same. We, we have goals, we have measurements, and that we have a shared faith in the team. So yeah, only the discipline is, could be different in the engagement as 

[00:11:41] Dan: Yeah, I'm very interested in the disciplines and, and I have to say, in our Squadify work, we've found that teamwork is teamwork. We, we work in so many different ways. Obviously as you say, they have different outcomes, but, but really the same things are gonna make that thing tick.

[00:11:57] But a couple of differences. That first one, the mentioned, the engagement. Is there is, is there a, a global scarcity of developers? So is that, you mentioned it's under pressure. What's the situation there?

[00:12:10] Felipe: Yeah. So I would say that's a, that's a general concern in the industry. Uh, a lot of demand. That's, that's one. So we're in, we are in a digital world, so we need developers. Uh, we need engineers. And, um, normally companies compete, uh, for the best talent. So keep the talent engaged to one project, uh, for a long time is challenging in, in this kind of world.

[00:12:36] Then the second one is, uh, you know, the level of, uh, seniority and the specialization that they, uh, get for developers. Uh, resonates in, I need more. I need another challenge. So I'm not gonna be here like for two or three years. Uh, so in six months or one year, I'm gonna go through an a different challenge. So, uh, yeah, keep that moti, keep the motivation, the engagement, the career path is, is super difficult, uh, because of all these changing, uh, challenges.

[00:13:11] Dan: That's really interesting. And can I, can I kind of follow that up with this other piece about discipline because my, perception of development teams is that they do use different ways of working, that, that you are, the discipline behind that is a sort of more, much more advanced in terms of agile than most of the business teams that we see. That's for sure. Could, could you just pick that one up and talk about potential differences there?

[00:13:36] Felipe: Yeah. You know, for engineering in general, there are a lot of frameworks, methodologies, and the ways to, to do our job. Uh, I would say that this is a pretty, let's say there's a lot of work behind, uh, the discipline for engineering teams. For development. Uh, at the end of the day, we are developing products, so, uh. all of, all of those disciplines and methodologies, uh, apply. But, uh, uh, what I was referring to was more related to the practices that we have. So we have diverse practices.

[00:14:12] So for example, we have SaaS platforms, we have mobile applications, we have desktop applications. We have, uh, you know, AI nowadays, uh, is a boom. So I was more, uh, referring to those practices, because the discipline at the end of the day, or the framework, uh, is the way you do or you, you execute your work. And I think that's, uh, that's pretty much set today.

[00:14:41] So I think, I cannot imagine, and, and the, and the, probably I'm wrong today, but I cannot imagine like a different way to do things, like more than agile, lean the traditional way to do things. Uh, so, so, yeah. But what's diverse, uh, is related to the practices, I think. So the, the different platforms, uh, the different, uh, you know, uh, subcategories now that we are creating.

[00:15:08] So for example, before we had these, uh, big, uh, data category. And now we have a lot of, uh, stuff like, uh, AI, ML, deep learning. Uh, uh, before we had like a software development in general, now we have digital experience, we have SaaS platforms, we have mobile. So this is, this is more my reasoning behind the, the discipline.

[00:15:32] So, and, and that I haven't seen, uh, and, and, and again, probably, probably I'm wrong, but I haven't seen any other career having a lot of changes at the same time in a year, for example, challenging people to, uh, every, every time like a go and research and learn more and more every single day as, uh, you know, uh, the life of a software engineer.

[00:16:01] Pia: And if I understand this correctly, I mean that there's, there's, there's a lot of complexity there and, and I, and quite a fast moving landscape in terms of development. I mean, you know, take us as an example, six months ago when ChatGPT hit the airwaves, then, you know, everyone got very excited, including ourselves. And that must mean that your clients are going Well, how do we, you know, that they're getting excited by the new developments.

[00:16:28] But the people in your team are also learning. I mean, it's not like you've been, you know, in a, in a cave, swatting up on ChatGPT and AI for the last 10 years, you know, we're, it's all so fast that we're all, all learning at the same time. So, you know, how how do you keep that learning together and not fragmented across the team, so that you really then move forward as a team?

[00:16:54] Felipe: That's a great question actually. And, uh, let me start with, uh, an anecdote that I have, so perhaps nine months ago I was investing all my time and energy in immersive metaverse and all this cool stuff. I created a team for that, uh, or we created a team for that actually. Uh, we invest, uh, money, energy, time, as I said, together, and then we figured out that we were, uh, probably in the wrong place because AI was, uh, beating uh, all the industry.

[00:17:28] So I, I, I just want, wanted to start with that one because, uh, learning is also, or, or, or we have to have the skill to, uh, pivot super quick if we find any other trend or any other, uh, way to do things better, uh, and the focus on the right problems to solve, uh, super fast. So that's, that's one thing.

[00:17:49] Now how we can, um, put the learning together and then make making sure that, uh, it is not fragmented, was your question, right? So, um, I would say one is creating the, the room for learning, for curiosity, uh, as a team and not as individual efforts. So this is the same concept as share fate. In this case, if I'm learning something, uh, my team is learning as well. So, uh, if I, uh, have this shared faith idea, I think all the team is gonna understand, uh, that learning is a, is a joint effort. It's not an individual effort, it's a team effort or, or investment. So that's one kind of, uh, create a mindset. Let's learn together. Uh, and then let's figure out how.

[00:18:39] So. starting with the purpose, joining the team, then the how is having the right tools for learning, uh, creating the paths and, uh, you know, sharing the knowledge. Uh, this includes, uh, having time to share knowledge in, uh, you know, sessions around the team, uh, so that for example, one team member, uh, is learning about, uh, let's say ChatGPT, uh, given the space, given the room to, uh, first learn and then teach the team, uh, that's one. Then for example, the other team members is learning about, uh, any other LLM. So give the room, uh, to learn and teach, uh, the team. Then compile everything in a share, in a central share will be a good idea. So that we can visit it, uh, record, uh, and have enough documentation for the rest of the team or, or, or, you know, for anyone that, uh, wants to acquire that knowledge, uh, together.

[00:19:40] So I would say, uh, super simple, uh, two things that we can do. Uh, giving the room to learn and teach and, uh, having a central share. Uh, I think those were, those, uh, will be my recommendations. Uh, enabling curiosity. Uh, that's, you know, having the right mindset, uh, for people to start learning and, uh, don't.

[00:20:05] One, one thing that I would recommend is, uh, avoid forcing uh, learning the learning path or the career paths and, you know, it's, it's about asking people, Hey, what do you want to learn? What do you want to, uh, to do in this few, uh, weeks? I think that enables, uh, the, the right mindset as well for, for the team to learn and teach.

[00:20:29] Dan: And do you find people in this world because there's so much change, they are naturally leaning towards being good learners already? 

[00:20:40] Felipe: Yeah. That's natural And that's natural of, uh, the latest generations as well. Like, uh, what we call them, millennials in the Z generation. That's natural. That's something that comes in the DNA, 

[00:20:54] Dan: One of the things you said, just thinking about this discipline and how the ways of working it, it was, I had a wry smile because you said that, um. I, I'm trying to quote you now, but you said these traditional methods like agile and lean. And you know, we spend a lot of time with teams, non-development teams, business teams, you know, top teams, mid teams, whatever, doing different things. And they have not yet adopted agile. So you know, they don't, you see, you know, their execution is really basically like the teams that I was in in the nineties, it's sort of, Right we're gonna have a discussion and then someone's gonna take that away and do it. But actually, and there might be minutes of a meeting or something, but it is really old school so that, most teams are doing that, so I was interested to hear that you're saying those traditional methods.

[00:21:46] So I think it seems to me that development teams are quite distinct in that there are ways of doing things that are accepted and presumably people come into your team and they already know pretty much how you're gonna work. I wonder if you could just sort of explore that for us. What are the ways of working? How do you take on tasks? How do you work together? And then maybe if I can ask two questions at once, what is it about this world that means that that is so disciplined, that there's something here that seems a little bit different about other, other teams?

[00:22:18] Felipe: I, I think in, in my opinion, there's a gap because all the documentation that we find is for engineers, not for, uh, you know, citizens, uh, let's say, let's call citizens to, uh. In my case, what's not a developer or an engineer. I think this is, this is responsibility of, uh, you know, the creators of, uh, for example, scrum, agile, lean. They always use, uh, engineering as the example. So you can actually, you can create an agile accounting team. You can create any, any structure, uh, in the, you know, uh, any structure can become an agile organization. Uh, we can start with that. But, uh, the, let's say the, the literature is not so, uh engaging for other organizations, uh, different to development teams or to software engineering or to, you know, buildings and, and so on.

[00:23:14] Uh, perhaps, we have seen methods like, uh, you know, the kanban method is, is not exclusive, actually was not created for development teams. Uh, it was for production lines, but we adopted and documented pretty well so that we, we are using it, uh, almost, I would say more than, uh, product, product lines, uh, type of organizations, uh, because software is a product line, uh, at the end of the day as well.

[00:23:42] So how, how, uh, a software development team works in an Agile environment? So what I can tell you is, um, the main purpose of the framework or, or the agile mindset is to avoid wasting time. Uh, that's one. Second, second thing is, um, that you fail early, in an early stage. For example, you don't have to wait and, uh, let's say one month, uh, three months or one years of one year of execution to figure out that, uh, this is not what I wanted to do or wanted to, or this is not what we wanted to achieve.

[00:24:22] So basically, uh. Most of the Agile, uh, frameworks are based on the small iterations or cycles, let's say one week, two weeks, so that you learn fast, uh, you fail fast as well, and that you keep, uh, on track. So there is no, so much room to deviate, uh, from the goals because you have small iterations. So that's, that's, that's the whole thing.

[00:24:51] So we have ceremonies. Uh, let me tell you a little bit about, uh, one, uh, common, uh, agile framework, which is a scrum. So we have a planning, but the planning is not the whole planning of the whole product or project. It's only a planning for, uh, one or two weeks depending on the, you know, the velocity that we want to gain. Uh, so that planning focuses on, uh, let's achieve the next product increment in the next two weeks, let's say. Uh, and then we follow up, uh, every day. So the, actually the daily standup, uh, which is a 15 minute call is the most important ceremony of the whole, the whole, uh, framework. Because, because it's, uh telling the group or the team, sorry, how I am gonna win the day, uh, and what are my blockers, uh, to win this day.

[00:25:49] So for example, I'm, yesterday did, I did this, and today I will win the day by doing this. But if I cannot unblock off, uh, you know, from this, I won't make it. So the whole team, especially Scrum Masters, is gonna work actually, uh, towards unblocking you. And that that's the way we don't waste time, like, uh, waiting for, uh, an answer or, or, or trying to, to figure things out without, uh, collaboration, et cetera. Uh, I would say that's, uh, in a nutshell, agile.

[00:26:22] And then lean is actually more, uh, aggressive because lean is, is let's not waste time planning. Let's just, uh, execute and, uh, discover at the same time, and plan together. Uh, and also we have, uh, variations like, uh, you know, uh, more towards agile. We have kanban, we have a scrum and so, uh, the framework that we choose, uh, depends on, uh, really what we want to achieve and the how we, how clear we are with the, uh, requirements, uh, and the how many stakeholders we have in team, uh, or for the team.

[00:27:01] Dan: And what, um, sorry, I'm gonna, I've got another question backing up on this. From the, if you look at that, um, look at Agile, it often looks like, it sounds like, you know, set of processes really, or ceremonies and, you know, a kanban with the tasks on it. What are the qualities of a team that make that work?

[00:27:21] Felipe: So the, the, the human side of that is, uh, what I mentioned, the shared fate. That's, uh, you know, what happens to one happens to all. So when you understand that, uh, what that really means, the whole system is gonna work perfectly because you are gonna feel empathy, not only for your team, but also for your stakeholders, uh, and that you are gonna show appreciation, uh, when you can bring real issues to the team. Uh, you're gonna receive and show appreciation, uh, as well.

[00:27:51] And, uh, all of these enables, uh, one word that's uh, key for this, which is transparency. So when, when you have this, uh, shared fate, empathy, and you understand the real outcome of that, transparency is gonna bring kind of, uh, automatically. And that when you bring transparency, you also bring feedback. So when you bring feedback, you are gonna do retrospectives, introspectives, and that you are gonna achieve, uh, as a team, actually any framework that that's made for teams.

[00:28:26] Pia: And I wanna just take that another step and talk about the actual leadership of the team. So Is there a, a chasm that that leadership has to cross from being a developer to being the leader of a team of developers?

[00:28:42] Felipe: Wow. That's a, that's a topic that. personally I have discussed, or, or I have, spoke about a lot of times of what's better, like, uh, coming from, uh, the development side, you know, the software engineering side or, or actually being a natural leader and then, uh, filling the gaps in technology. I have seen both sides.

[00:29:02] Uh, so I have a, an example of a, a teammate that's a great leader in the, he, he just fill the gaps in technology and that he does great actually, uh. One of the, you know, smartest, uh, people and the best leaders that I know, uh, in my life. That's one example. But I, but I, I have also seem these leaders are struggling a lot when it comes to, uh, deal with issues, especially technical issues. Um, so when, when the team is, is bringing technical issues in that you don't have a technical landscape or scope inside the team as a leader, you are gonna be a bit lost in, in. And if you don't have, um, a functional or an accountable team, that's gonna be difficult to deal with.

[00:29:53] I prefer, in my opinion, being a natural leader. It doesn't matter if you were, uh, shape up from the development side, the software development side, or any other discipline. I, I prefer that because I have seen a lot of gaps of, uh, or, or this, this thing that's called the halo effect. Like, Hey, you're a great developer now. You should lead, lead the team. And uh, I've seen people failing a lot on that. And I, I would prefer, like, uh, bringing a natural leader and the filling in the, the technical gaps instead of, uh, filling in the leadership. That's, that's, that's gonna take a whole life.

[00:30:35] Dan: It's a classic story, isn't it? You lose your best developer and you also get a bad manager in that situation, so you, you've got two things happening.

[00:30:45] Felipe: I'm, I'm on that line actually. I'm with that line, yeah, of thinking.

[00:30:50] Pia: and it's difficult when, you know, certainly in the organizations that we work with, when you are technically proficient and that has elevated you through your career, and then you're at a point where you need to drop some of that functional capacity in order to take a more strategic role inside the company. But that's a bit gray. I mean, that's like we, we get more of a dopamine hit by doing the things that we know well, and that we know that we can really contribute. So it's hard to let go of those things, I think.

[00:31:23] Felipe: it's very hard. Actually in the, at the beginning could be frustrating. Uh, because when you are a, a great individual contributor, let's say that, uh, I thought you are a team, uh, you are producing great results, but then leading or being in a more tactical slash strategic position could be frustrating. Because now more people depends on you. Uh, more processes, more responsibilities, uh, in the, now it's gonna be like at the real world, uh, in that dealing with different, uh, type of contributions, the good and the bad. So yeah, it could be frustrating and could be super hard to, uh, let it go actually, uh, being a proficient contributor to now deal with, uh, you know, different or diverse, uh, type of roles.

[00:32:17] Dan: And is there anything that you do, Felipe, to sort of keep that, keep your hands on the, on the code and the develop, just to keep that fire burning? What do you, do you have a, feel a need to, your, your first love really maybe was, uh, was developing and, and write, developing code. Do you, do you do anything to keep that flame burning?

[00:32:38] Felipe: Yeah. Yeah. So, so actually, uh, there was a point in my career in which I, I had to. Um, choose between, you know, taking a, a, a master degree on, you know, more leadership or software architecture. And I actually decided, uh, to do the software architecture one and, uh, do more workshops or kind of, uh, different other, uh training, uh, on leadership. I still consider, or I still want to, to have my hands dirty, but I'm pretty bad actually on that today. So I cannot compare with a, with a, you know, even with a junior developer.

[00:33:23] So I'm aware of that and I can, what I can do is to contribute with, uh, the general, you know, architecture, the general technical, uh, landscape. But, uh, they will do their job, uh, on, on the code deeply in the code quite better than me. But yeah, I, I, I feel that, you know, necessity of, uh, you know, put my, putting my hands there, uh, still, or perform a query in a database, uh, create something that's, that's something that you, you'll never, uh, lose, actually.

[00:33:53] Pia: So Felipe, how, tell us how you plan and work to create a high performing team inside your organization, that takes quite a lot of thought and planning, as I say behind that. 

[00:34:06] Felipe: And energy. so yeah 

[00:34:08] Pia: Yes. 

[00:34:09] Felipe: Yeah, but I, I love that actually. Uh, uh, one of my strengths, or, or I would say my uniques is assembling teams. I like, uh, team assembly, but also I like, like, uh, taking a, an existing team and, uh, converting it to a, into a high performing team. So I, I have kind of a personal formula that I apply that is, uh, first I identify if I have a non-functional team or a functional team.

[00:34:39] So how I identify if I have a non-functional team is if they don't know what they're suppo, uh, supposed to be doing, or they don't know how to do, uh, the job, or actually they don't consider, uh, what they're doing is, uh, important enough for the company. I start with that. Because if you don't, if you don't have the why, if you don't have the purpose, there is no way you're gonna create a functional and then an accountable team and, and then taking this team to ultimate, uh, success.

[00:35:11] So I identified that, and, uh, any refinement that I need to do with the purpose, uh, you know, uh, making sure that they know not only the proposed, but also how they can contribute to it. Uh, so I do that. So I, I try to refine that as, as much as possible, uh, at the very beginning. If I'm assembling a new team, I start with that. I start with the why, uh, generally, and then, uh, the what.

[00:35:39] So then with all of that clear, um, I go to the next, uh, stage, which is creating a functional team. Uh, so a functional team is, is a team that clearly understood the purpose, not only understood, but ac accepted it, uh, because that's different. And also they know how to contribute to it. Uh, then I create the KPIs or the measurements. So, uh, you can't improve what you don't measure. So that's, uh, obvious. So I try to create the two or three most important measurements, uh, for the team. I don't, I don't like the approach of creating like a 10, 12, 15, or 20 KPIs for the team. So kind of, uh, the two or three most, uh, important ones to start with, to ensure that I'm getting the right information about the team.

[00:36:30] Then, with that clear, now I create, or I make sure that we have competent people. Uh, competent people, uh, is about having the right people, you know, the, the, the right culture, the right personality and behaviors into the right seat. So that's a, that's an approach that we call, uh, generally the right person in the right seat. So you can have actually right person in the wrong seat, so we will need to figure out what's the best, not only for the team, but also for the individual in this case? Uh, you know, not being part of the team or, or, or being part of another team because probably, uh, you are in the wrong, uh, position. And then creating this high degree of, uh, shared fate.

[00:37:18] Uh, if I have all of those components, I can declare that I have a functional team. Then I'm ready for the next step. This, this can take, you know, weeks or months of work with the team.

[00:37:30] Then the next step is encourage the team to deal with real issues together. So if I have a, an issue if something someone's already is not showing up on the daily standups. If someone is not giving what I need, I mean, if I'm a team member and my other teammate is not helping the team, and as a team member I know that, uh, I encourage the team to avoid, like, uh, complaining with me as a leader, as the leader of the team. Just bring to the whole team.

[00:38:05] And that's a, that was a switch actually that was, um, something that, uh, was hard to me to understand because normally what you do is to go to your leader, complain or maximum do a one-on-one with the teammate, but bring in the real issues as a team is gonna create or enforce this shared fate. So in the speak, uh, on behalf of yourself, like, Hey, Dan, I'm noticing that you are not showing up in the dailies, and the team is suffering that. So is there anything that's happening to you? Uh, is there anything that I can do for you or we as a team can do for you? So, uh, I, I actually learned that recently, and it's super powerful.

[00:38:56] So normally we do a one-on-one as a, as a, as a first option. Uh, but now we are encouraging, uh, the teams, especially the more mature teams to bring the real issues and to deal with them, uh, together. So that will decrease the fear of, uh, separation. Because if you go to your leader or you start ping with some, with someone else, you are gonna feel the fear of separation of the team. Like, and now you are creating Icelands in instead of a, a whole unit.

[00:39:25] So that's having an accountable team. Then when I have that accountable team, my next, or my last step is, uh, going to the ultimate success, what, what we call the ultimate success for the team. That can take a lot of time, but now it's individual commitment to each other's, uh, success. So this is the we, not me, actually. So now, what happens to me happens to everyone. And if I can from my individual contribution, uh, help the others to succeed, now I can say that I'm, I'm in an accountable team, uh, plus, let's say I'm in the ultimate, uh, success stage of the team. 

[00:40:07] When you have all of that, uh, you have an accountable team. You have a high performing team. And then notice that I didn't talk anything about technology, anything about technical gaps. If you have all of these, and in my case, uh, if I have all of these, technical gaps are super easy to manage, actually.

[00:40:28] Dan: it's a really, it's a beautifully thought out approach, philippe, and I know you are, you've studied this stuff. You're a student of leadership. As you said, that was one of your, it's one of your loves to do, and it, it really comes through in that. And so just bringing out the conversation to a close here, just, there's so much there, but is there something that you would leave the listener with something, what's a, a little takeaway for them that you, you could leave them with?

[00:40:52] Felipe: I have had coaches and mentors and, uh, my general takeaway is that for all what I said, to be real and to be possible, you need to be vulnerable. You need to show your weakness, uh, to allow people to help you. You need to be vulnerable to, uh, receive feedback in a good way. So vulnerability has been my main takeaway, uh, you know, the last two or three years I would say. And uh, for example, if I don't know all the details of a software development process, if I'm vulnerable with that, I can get help. But if I, if my ego is over here all the time, I'm not vulnerable, i, I don't receive feedback, there's no way that I can improve. There's no way that I can create this shared fate, these accountable teams. Uh, I need help all the time. So being vulnerable.

[00:41:52] And, and, and also we all are human, so we have our pers personal things. So I just had, uh, some loses in my family if I'm vulnerable with that. If, if I let the people know that I'm human as well, so I'm gonna get help, I'm gonna get support, and that there is not, nothing like, uh, getting, uh, support and, uh, you know, see how people surround you, uh, when you are in a, in vulnerable, uh, situations as well. So this, I think, uh, gets the best of people like, uh, when you're vulnerable and, uh, when you need help.

[00:42:28] Pia: I think that's really powerful, and very authentic. And I think we are, we're understanding this better, but vulnerability is a superpower. You know, the ability to, to be able to say, um, I don't know, what do you think? Um, I'm not in the best position to answer this. Um, and actually things aren't that great at the moment, ' cause that's a human's a human experience, and I think that's really powerful. And I think then, that builds the respect, and also is the role modeling for the rest of the team. And then that just drives the performance really, because then as you say, everybody is leaning in to support each other. Is that that accountable team.

[00:43:13] Dan: it's a very powerful place to end, Philippe. Thank you. And I want, and I think that our listener will, will see, will have really enjoyed actually what we enjoy of our partnership with you, which is that vulnerability but also your grace and your diligence, has really shone through, which just makes you a great partner and, uh, a great guest on We Not Me today. So thank you so much for everything Philippe.

[00:43:36] Felipe: Thanks so much for the invitation. Uh, a pleasure to be here. 

[00:43:40] Pia: I loved, uh, towards the end of this conversation with Felipe, when he talked about some of the elements to create a high performing team. I, I love that he had moved away from one-to-ones, and he really got, he took, he said, I want, I want the individuals to bring the real issues to the team. It's a very collective way of doing things, but he said, you need to be able to speak on behalf of yourself and not through me, which should be music to a lot of people who are listening to this. You know, just a different way around that you're not having countless and countless one-to-ones where you are the, the hub and spoke, 

[00:44:24] Dan: I've definitely done it myself, so, um, but it's a slightly infantilizing way to lead, isn't it? To, to use that word. You know, it's sort of, bring it to mom, mom and pop and, we'll, I'll sort it out instead of keeping it down in that team, I thought that's, yeah, it's, and he really made that just so clear.

[00:44:40] And then of course, your one-to-ones that you have are based on. Development. And so, but you're not just spending time saying, what can I take on from you to take it back out to the team? And it's such a powerful way to build a team.

[00:44:54] Pia: It was a nice way that, you know, he's taking. You know how, how he breaks down problems from a development perspective and, and actually applies a sort of similar rationale, and he talks about automating success. So when you've got those problems shared and solved within the team, then how do we take the learning of that so that we, we don't keep getting tripped up by the same things?

[00:45:16] Dan: This should, again, music to people's ears, I think, that he said that once you get that team working, things like the development, the task just gets done. It's, it makes it easy to solve these things, even that fast moving environment that, that just, that just happens. And I think that final step, so hard to achieve I think this, but brilliant to have that as a goal is the, is when individual, there's an individual commitment to others' success. And he said that was a we not me thing. And you know, getting, it's the opposite of what you're saying at the top of the show, Pia, which is that we have to compete with each other.

[00:45:49] And it's very hard when people are in these times when everything's so constrained and under pressure. But that's a lovely goal, isn't it? Something to, I think, verbalize with teams. I think I'll be using that with the teams I work with to view that as a, as a sort of a point that we're trying to, trying to get to, I think it's, it's quite. So sur, so, so much the opposite from the old days of KPIs where I can succeed and you fail, and that a, doesn't matter, but probably is quite good for my career. Um, so that, that was, that was refreshing. 

[00:46:21] And that point, that last point about vulnerability? Brilliant how that is the opposite again from the old days, but as you said in the, in the interview just opens everything up if, if people can, you know, we talk about psychological safety as well, coming from the leader, how do you make things safe? And vulnerability is another way to just say part of that, which is I'm learning. I don't know. I may have made a mistake, you know, or, um, or I'm having, as you know, Felipe mentioned briefly that he's had deaths in the family recently. He had a really rough time, and he was open about that, and the team closed around him and gave him time with his family. And whereas if he'd kept that to himself or toughed it out, it would just be bad for everyone.

[00:47:03] Pia: it was really refreshing, really refreshing talking to him, um, in such an authentic way. And he'd come up with a lot of this stuff. He just researched and thought about it and practiced it, and his passion for people and leadership, you know, he said, I, I don't know all the latest, I've got great people that do. And I think that was really inspirational. No ego.

[00:47:25] Dan: Yeah, absolutely. And I, and it's a, as you say, it's a real rarity though, isn't it, that a leader sees their primary job as leading, you know, that, that he really sees it as a professional. I know from working with him, um, that he sees that as his sort of, a core capability that he studies, that he refines, he think, as you can see, thinks about. But so often leaders, even a senior position see their functional role or the, you know, their expertise as the number one thing. And, um, and so it is really refreshing to see this.

[00:47:56] And you get the results. I think when you see that first, then you do that first and you, you actually unlock the team in these, really impressive and advanced ways as he has. But yeah, lovely, lovely, refreshing thought for us as we are all under a lot of pressure.

[00:48:10] But that is it for this episode. You can find show notes at squadify.net under Resources. If you've enjoyed the show, please do share the love and recommend it to your friends. If you'd like to contribute to the show, just email us at wenotmepod@gmail.com. We not Me is produced by Mark Steadman of Origin. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.

[00:48:32] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.