WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.170 --> 00:00:01.120 Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for joining us. 00:00:01.190 --> 00:00:03.230 Welcome to Live Free, Ride Free. 00:00:03.410 --> 00:00:06.810 I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times bestselling author of 00:00:06.830 --> 00:00:08.389 The Horseboy and The Long Ride Home. 00:00:08.450 --> 00:00:13.089 Before I jump in with today's guest, I want to say a huge thank you to you, our 00:00:13.089 --> 00:00:14.989 audience, for helping to make this happen. 00:00:15.000 --> 00:00:15.949 I have a request. 00:00:16.219 --> 00:00:19.750 If you like what we do here, please give it a thumbs up, 00:00:19.799 --> 00:00:22.380 like, subscribe, tell a friend. 00:00:22.770 --> 00:00:24.910 It really, really helps us to make the pro. 00:00:24.910 --> 00:00:28.930 To find out about our certification courses, online video libraries, 00:00:29.435 --> 00:00:33.325 books, and other courses, please go to rupertisaacson.com. 00:00:34.894 --> 00:00:36.125 So now let's jump in. 00:00:36.785 --> 00:00:39.635 Welcome back to Live Free, ride Free today. 00:00:39.695 --> 00:00:41.795 I've got Jeff, Tom Hay. 00:00:41.825 --> 00:00:44.285 He's a lawyer, he's Native American. 00:00:44.285 --> 00:00:48.625 He has a unique perspective not just on the American experience and, you know, 00:00:49.074 --> 00:00:53.514 the world experience of America, but also on the America, within America. 00:00:53.664 --> 00:01:00.774 And many of us who are not American, or at least not born there, have a 00:01:00.834 --> 00:01:05.695 perception of the USA usually based around what we see coming through 00:01:05.695 --> 00:01:07.225 the media of one kind or another. 00:01:07.524 --> 00:01:11.035 But the, the truth is that there are many Americans and that the Native 00:01:11.035 --> 00:01:16.324 American experience is something that I think is probably unfamiliar, hidden 00:01:16.324 --> 00:01:23.435 from most outsiders because it's just not what is presented front and center 00:01:23.914 --> 00:01:30.035 in the media experience to the outside world except in certain enclaves of 00:01:30.035 --> 00:01:35.225 Hollywood or a film dealing with the American West or something like that. 00:01:35.225 --> 00:01:40.024 But even then it would be through the, usually through the perspective of, you 00:01:40.024 --> 00:01:42.684 know, a, a non-native film director or so. 00:01:42.954 --> 00:01:48.814 So it's great to be able to have, you on Jeff, because you have spent 00:01:48.814 --> 00:01:53.074 your life as a lawyer for tribal advocacy, which I suspect probably 00:01:53.074 --> 00:01:54.934 has not made you a multimillionaire. 00:01:55.424 --> 00:01:56.924 Although I do hope it does one day. 00:01:57.464 --> 00:02:02.344 And you are, if I have it right, hada Nation. 00:02:02.794 --> 00:02:02.884 Yes. 00:02:02.914 --> 00:02:04.654 Same geographic area. 00:02:04.684 --> 00:02:11.044 You informed me as the Mandan and Aria Kiri, which those listening 00:02:11.044 --> 00:02:16.984 from outside the USA or outside that area would be like the upper Missouri 00:02:16.984 --> 00:02:21.844 Basin sort of plains of the Dakotas. 00:02:21.844 --> 00:02:21.995 Yes. 00:02:22.325 --> 00:02:24.365 Would I be right in in, in thinking that? 00:02:24.394 --> 00:02:24.515 Yes. 00:02:24.995 --> 00:02:27.865 And so that is an America within America. 00:02:28.045 --> 00:02:35.155 How does one live one's life as a tribal advocate? 00:02:35.605 --> 00:02:43.670 And maybe before we get into this, your name Tom, Tom Ha Tom ha Tom hav 00:02:44.170 --> 00:02:44.590 Jeff Tomhave: Tom ha 00:02:45.025 --> 00:02:45.415 Rupert Isaacson: Tom ha. 00:02:45.805 --> 00:02:49.015 Talk to us about the origin of that name, because I suspect that in 00:02:49.015 --> 00:02:52.465 the origin of names we can learn a lot and then we can go from there. 00:02:53.575 --> 00:02:56.965 Jeff Tomhave: Well, I'm, I'm glad you asked that because most people assume that 00:02:56.965 --> 00:03:00.505 Tom Hay is some kind of indigenous name. 00:03:00.505 --> 00:03:00.595 Mm-hmm. 00:03:00.890 --> 00:03:02.130 It's actually German. 00:03:02.135 --> 00:03:02.455 Okay. 00:03:02.725 --> 00:03:05.395 One quarter German and. 00:03:06.535 --> 00:03:12.095 The German ancestors I'm sure you know this, Rupert a lot of German immigrants 00:03:12.095 --> 00:03:17.144 moved to, you know, the great the Great Lakes area and the upper plains. 00:03:18.015 --> 00:03:23.529 So Minnesota, North Dakota, South Dakota is filled with Germans and Germans. 00:03:23.535 --> 00:03:24.614 Germans and Scandinavians. 00:03:24.704 --> 00:03:25.005 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:03:25.065 --> 00:03:25.484 Jeff Tomhave: Yes. 00:03:25.575 --> 00:03:30.050 And, and I've been told it's because, you know, that part of the United 00:03:30.050 --> 00:03:31.865 States looks like where they came from. 00:03:32.195 --> 00:03:39.800 So in doing the, my own genealogy research, I found that Tom ha is actually, 00:03:39.800 --> 00:03:41.600 you know, the, the, the shortened version. 00:03:41.600 --> 00:03:43.220 It was originally Tom Haven. 00:03:43.520 --> 00:03:44.660 Ah, that would make sense. 00:03:44.665 --> 00:03:47.690 From like, from like, I don't know, like the 13 hundreds. 00:03:47.690 --> 00:03:49.250 It was Zh at one time. 00:03:49.590 --> 00:03:53.410 But anyway, anyway, that's, that's where that name comes from. 00:03:53.410 --> 00:03:58.060 And throughout my life you know, teachers and, and you know, other 00:03:58.060 --> 00:04:02.140 people have always assumed that it's it's some kind of indigenous name 00:04:02.140 --> 00:04:03.880 and Well, I just let 'em think that. 00:04:04.570 --> 00:04:04.960 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:04:05.050 --> 00:04:05.380 Yeah. 00:04:05.620 --> 00:04:08.740 It's, but I mean it, I think one could be forgiven for thinking that because 00:04:08.740 --> 00:04:13.300 it's not an obvi, if it was Tom Haven, it one would automatically think Germanic. 00:04:13.330 --> 00:04:14.140 Yes, it's true. 00:04:14.540 --> 00:04:16.069 Tom Hay one does not. 00:04:16.069 --> 00:04:20.029 And I'm, I was actually busy googling it as you were talking there, and 00:04:20.029 --> 00:04:26.599 it, it also seems to possibly have a a Belgian, but it would be the, 00:04:26.680 --> 00:04:29.740 the Flemish, Dutch what's the area? 00:04:29.790 --> 00:04:31.890 Free Freezeland area. 00:04:31.890 --> 00:04:31.980 Mm-hmm. 00:04:32.215 --> 00:04:32.505 Name. 00:04:32.790 --> 00:04:35.640 And then, then it actually does make sense to me. 00:04:36.150 --> 00:04:40.950 And yeah, as you, as you say, that's, you know, rather, like me, I'm a 00:04:40.950 --> 00:04:43.170 product of the colonial experience. 00:04:43.380 --> 00:04:54.320 My surname Isaacson was Lithuanian Jews who wanted to sound less Jewish and 00:04:54.320 --> 00:04:57.290 less starve in German, southwest Africa. 00:04:57.470 --> 00:05:05.380 So they misguidedly changed their name from Mirko to Isaacson, thinking this 00:05:05.380 --> 00:05:08.440 would make them more, more accepted. 00:05:08.470 --> 00:05:12.100 I dunno why they didn't go for like, fun, Isaac or something like that. 00:05:12.100 --> 00:05:14.680 But no, they went with Isaacson, which of course didn't work. 00:05:15.070 --> 00:05:17.860 And the other side we're all, you know, Dutch and English and 00:05:17.860 --> 00:05:19.690 Scottish and you know, yeah. 00:05:19.780 --> 00:05:21.130 Here I am, the mishmash. 00:05:21.550 --> 00:05:29.720 So, but you, despite the fact that the name is Germanic yes. 00:05:30.890 --> 00:05:37.880 Are Native Americans, so, and why did you decide to get involved in tribal advocacy? 00:05:38.270 --> 00:05:40.430 Why not just go and live your life? 00:05:40.460 --> 00:05:44.060 And also if you're gonna become a lawyer, why not just go off and 00:05:44.060 --> 00:05:45.080 become the kind of lawyer that. 00:05:45.500 --> 00:05:45.979 Gets rich. 00:05:45.979 --> 00:05:50.900 Why, why not just, you know, look after nice oil contracts in North Dakota or 00:05:50.900 --> 00:05:54.229 something like that, and then, you know, retire to Palm Springs and play golf. 00:05:54.289 --> 00:05:57.890 You know, like why did you choose the part you chose? 00:05:58.610 --> 00:06:00.200 Jeff Tomhave: These are all good questions. 00:06:00.440 --> 00:06:02.240 I'm gonna probably ask that every day. 00:06:02.570 --> 00:06:06.520 First I wanna swing back to to you know, my own heritage. 00:06:06.580 --> 00:06:11.570 So, so my father was, you know, he was half so he grew up on his 00:06:11.570 --> 00:06:15.830 reservation, the Fort Reservation in North Dakota, you know, as a half breed. 00:06:15.830 --> 00:06:20.475 And so he was never, he wasn't Indian enough for the Indian kids, and he 00:06:20.475 --> 00:06:24.620 was, you know, not white enough for the white kids and, and all of that. 00:06:25.280 --> 00:06:28.940 But on my mother's side, my mother's maiden name is Kit, 00:06:29.690 --> 00:06:32.150 and that is an indigenous name. 00:06:32.450 --> 00:06:38.340 And that actually means lake Superior in, in Potawatomi because 00:06:38.340 --> 00:06:40.020 that's where she came from. 00:06:40.080 --> 00:06:42.180 You know, that's where, that's where her tribe was from. 00:06:42.390 --> 00:06:48.790 So on my mom's side, I am also Potawatomi and HoChunk which are two 00:06:48.790 --> 00:06:52.240 tribes from was the Wisconsin area and. 00:06:53.395 --> 00:07:01.265 Like most native people of my generation, and I am 62 years old 00:07:01.265 --> 00:07:06.335 now, our parents probably met at some off reservation boarding school. 00:07:06.335 --> 00:07:12.275 And so most Native Americans are this tribe and that tribe because their 00:07:12.275 --> 00:07:14.075 parents met at boarding schools. 00:07:14.135 --> 00:07:17.165 And so, you know, I'm a product of that. 00:07:17.465 --> 00:07:21.635 And that gets into, you know, why, why tribal advocacy. 00:07:22.235 --> 00:07:28.625 My father worked for the Bureau of Indian Affairs, and which if your audience is 00:07:28.625 --> 00:07:36.445 not familiar, that is the branch of the federal government that provides most of 00:07:36.445 --> 00:07:42.575 the services on Indian reservations that the federal government would provide. 00:07:43.025 --> 00:07:47.615 And to give you a sort of a historical perspective getting into colonialism, 00:07:48.065 --> 00:07:53.625 it would be like a a British, or I mean a European colony somewhere. 00:07:54.015 --> 00:07:58.785 The governor of that colony would be the one, you know, administering 00:07:59.355 --> 00:08:01.545 the programs for that colony. 00:08:01.845 --> 00:08:05.775 That's essentially the BIA did. 00:08:05.775 --> 00:08:11.055 And in, and in some part still does on different reservations 00:08:11.085 --> 00:08:12.315 in the United States. 00:08:12.685 --> 00:08:18.335 And so he worked for that, his entire, his entire professional career. 00:08:18.815 --> 00:08:26.575 And ultimately, you know, made his way up the, up the organization where 00:08:26.575 --> 00:08:31.795 they wanted him to be to run it in DC and he ac he actually refused to 00:08:31.795 --> 00:08:36.265 do so and, and he, he turned down promotion after promotion because he 00:08:36.265 --> 00:08:38.935 saw how you can't really do anything. 00:08:39.055 --> 00:08:43.975 I mean, you know, you, you, you can provide services, but you can't 00:08:43.975 --> 00:08:50.215 really help the people if, if the services aren't geared for the people. 00:08:51.145 --> 00:08:56.575 Put it this way, if you're, if you are serving the federal government, you're 00:08:56.575 --> 00:08:59.245 not necessarily serving the tribal people. 00:08:59.335 --> 00:09:01.795 And that's sort of what he saw and that's what he told me. 00:09:02.275 --> 00:09:06.205 And and honestly, that's really what I've done. 00:09:06.205 --> 00:09:12.595 And, and because I am this tribe and this tribe and this tribe, I 00:09:12.595 --> 00:09:20.275 sort of have a, a, a more global perspective of what tribes need. 00:09:20.665 --> 00:09:24.745 And I originally didn't want to do this. 00:09:24.745 --> 00:09:29.255 I actually wanted to get into, into media, into filmmaking and 00:09:29.255 --> 00:09:31.235 was starting out doing that. 00:09:31.785 --> 00:09:39.135 And along the way I, I had a found a mentor and this mentor told me. 00:09:39.195 --> 00:09:44.325 He said, well, if you ever wanna have, if you ever wanna own a new car, and 00:09:44.325 --> 00:09:51.135 if you ever wanna buy a house, find a profession, you know, get a, get a degree 00:09:51.135 --> 00:09:55.695 and, and, and make that be what you do. 00:09:56.145 --> 00:09:57.585 And then this can be your hobby. 00:09:58.245 --> 00:10:00.465 And so I actually took his advice to heart. 00:10:00.525 --> 00:10:04.685 And so, 10 years out of college, I went back to law school. 00:10:05.345 --> 00:10:07.955 And I, I didn't wanna be a lawyer. 00:10:08.045 --> 00:10:08.915 I never wanted to be a lawyer. 00:10:08.915 --> 00:10:11.765 'cause God knows the world is filled with enough lawyers. 00:10:12.095 --> 00:10:20.175 But I wanted to have the law degree because it gives you an opening that 00:10:20.295 --> 00:10:23.840 not having it wouldn't, wouldn't give you Oh, it gives you a Yeah. 00:10:24.190 --> 00:10:25.125 Sort of, yeah. 00:10:25.125 --> 00:10:29.745 There's a gravitas to having a, a JD behind your name and it opens doors and 00:10:29.745 --> 00:10:31.905 it, and it keeps conversations going. 00:10:31.995 --> 00:10:37.155 And that's what I wanted to do, is I wanted to have my law degree so 00:10:37.155 --> 00:10:38.745 that I could help Indian people. 00:10:39.045 --> 00:10:41.115 I had no idea how to do that. 00:10:42.035 --> 00:10:51.155 But other than, you know, because the United States government, the whole 00:10:51.155 --> 00:10:53.495 founding of it is based upon property law. 00:10:53.495 --> 00:10:54.485 Mm-hmm. 00:10:56.000 --> 00:10:58.670 The, the Bill of Rights, which is, you know, oh yeah, let's, 00:10:58.670 --> 00:10:59.630 let's protect the people too. 00:10:59.630 --> 00:11:02.420 That was sort of an add-on, you know, in order to get the Constitution 00:11:02.420 --> 00:11:04.520 passed, they said, okay, we'll throw on the bill of Rights too. 00:11:04.730 --> 00:11:06.140 But it's basically about property law. 00:11:06.140 --> 00:11:14.600 It's about how to keep the property with the people who own it and 00:11:14.600 --> 00:11:15.680 how to protect that property. 00:11:15.860 --> 00:11:18.590 That's pretty much the United States government in a nutshell. 00:11:19.250 --> 00:11:19.370 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:11:19.400 --> 00:11:25.350 Jeff Tomhave: And so I wanted to use that legal training for tribal people so that 00:11:25.350 --> 00:11:32.610 they could use their own property, whether it was real property or intellectual 00:11:32.610 --> 00:11:34.590 property for their own benefit. 00:11:34.650 --> 00:11:38.910 And so that's really why, what I wanted to do with a law degree, not necessarily, you 00:11:38.910 --> 00:11:45.180 know, be in a courtroom arguing, you know, esoteric matters of the law, but getting 00:11:45.180 --> 00:11:50.700 tribal people to start thinking about how they could really exercise their own 00:11:50.760 --> 00:11:53.460 inner power to do what they wanted to do. 00:11:54.030 --> 00:11:57.090 And so that's, that's, that's really what I wanted the law degree for. 00:11:57.090 --> 00:12:00.570 Rupert Isaacson: And let me ask you, Anai, even perhaps to your mind, 00:12:00.570 --> 00:12:06.000 overly obvious question, but if you are listening to this, say in Germany or 00:12:06.960 --> 00:12:11.880 New Zealand, it might not be obvious why Native American people might need that. 00:12:12.390 --> 00:12:16.110 Why did you feel or still feel that Native American people 00:12:16.110 --> 00:12:19.200 need that kind of access to. 00:12:19.740 --> 00:12:23.070 The power to argue for their property rights? 00:12:23.670 --> 00:12:25.650 What's missing that they don't have? 00:12:26.640 --> 00:12:32.420 Jeff Tomhave: Well, because there are 575 federally recognized tribes in the 00:12:32.420 --> 00:12:38.030 United States, 236 have reservations. 00:12:38.030 --> 00:12:41.450 So a, a land base that they call their home. 00:12:42.200 --> 00:12:49.700 However, except for a handful of cases, they don't actually own that land. 00:12:49.700 --> 00:12:53.630 The federal government owns that land and it's held in 00:12:53.630 --> 00:12:55.970 trust for the benefit of them. 00:12:56.330 --> 00:13:02.270 So, for instance, Navajo Nation biggest reservation in the United States, 00:13:02.780 --> 00:13:05.325 they don't own a, a, a bit of it. 00:13:05.725 --> 00:13:05.925 Interesting. 00:13:05.930 --> 00:13:10.970 They own parcels outside of it, you know, but they're like any other landowner. 00:13:11.150 --> 00:13:13.040 They, they own that place. 00:13:13.220 --> 00:13:14.780 They don't own their reservation. 00:13:15.590 --> 00:13:24.200 And so the way that the, the federal laws have been designed is to disenfranchise 00:13:24.840 --> 00:13:29.250 Indian people from pretty much everything from their land, from their culture, 00:13:29.340 --> 00:13:31.290 from their language, from their history. 00:13:31.560 --> 00:13:37.860 And so that's why it's important for me and, and professional 00:13:37.860 --> 00:13:41.520 natives of my generation to get. 00:13:41.955 --> 00:13:45.135 Indian people, especially elected leaders, to start thinking all 00:13:45.135 --> 00:13:49.185 around the lines of, we don't need the federal government's permission 00:13:49.185 --> 00:13:51.075 to do something, we can just do it. 00:13:51.555 --> 00:13:54.825 Besides, they're gonna give it to us anyway, so why don't we just do it? 00:13:56.805 --> 00:13:57.255 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 00:13:57.255 --> 00:13:59.745 The question is, do what, what is the need? 00:13:59.745 --> 00:14:09.255 Like if, if you were to put in a nutshell, the lack that spurred you 00:14:09.255 --> 00:14:12.855 as a younger man to say, look, I need to try and fill this gap here. 00:14:12.975 --> 00:14:14.235 What is that gap? 00:14:15.105 --> 00:14:17.175 What is the major disenfranchisement? 00:14:18.555 --> 00:14:25.440 Jeff Tomhave: The major disenfranchisement is the fact that Indian people 00:14:25.440 --> 00:14:32.220 have been so colonized that they've forgotten how they govern themselves. 00:14:32.790 --> 00:14:40.680 What I mean by that is most tribal nations did not have jails. 00:14:41.040 --> 00:14:48.450 You know, you dealt with a wrongdoing by having the, the, the person who 00:14:48.450 --> 00:14:50.640 did the wrong make things right. 00:14:51.210 --> 00:14:56.820 So, for instance, if you killed somebody for whatever reason, you know, accident 00:14:57.030 --> 00:15:03.660 on purpose, you were jealous, whatever, you then had the responsibility to 00:15:03.660 --> 00:15:05.940 take care of that person's family. 00:15:06.360 --> 00:15:07.710 For the rest of your life. 00:15:08.250 --> 00:15:10.710 That was your sentence. 00:15:11.370 --> 00:15:15.540 And so, so jump forward to present day. 00:15:16.950 --> 00:15:22.980 When tribes run their own jail systems, they don't have the capacity 00:15:23.310 --> 00:15:29.970 to do it the way it's done, say outside in the local county jail or 00:15:29.970 --> 00:15:31.620 in the state prisons or whatever. 00:15:31.860 --> 00:15:33.120 They don't have the personnel. 00:15:33.360 --> 00:15:36.120 They don't have the expertise, they don't have the programming. 00:15:36.270 --> 00:15:41.490 For instance, they don't have healthcare in, in jails, in, in tribal jails. 00:15:41.490 --> 00:15:43.350 There is no healthcare in tribal jails. 00:15:43.800 --> 00:15:50.670 And so rather than trying to perfect jails, why not go back to the old 00:15:50.670 --> 00:15:58.650 way of doing things of not jailing people and make the sentence more 00:15:58.710 --> 00:16:04.830 in line with how your worldview used to be and how it should be. 00:16:04.830 --> 00:16:08.730 Because if you don't have the capacity to run a jail, then 00:16:08.730 --> 00:16:10.170 you shouldn't be jailing people. 00:16:10.260 --> 00:16:16.020 But if you do have the capacity to monitor somebody's penance 00:16:16.020 --> 00:16:19.980 through their own atonement work, well then you could do that. 00:16:20.700 --> 00:16:23.880 The reason that I mentioned that tribes don't own their 00:16:23.880 --> 00:16:25.680 land, it's important because. 00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:28.230 Because they don't own their land. 00:16:28.230 --> 00:16:29.910 They can't impose property taxes. 00:16:30.300 --> 00:16:34.440 And without property taxes, you can't run government services. 00:16:34.500 --> 00:16:39.210 And so everything that tribes do, jails for instance, all depend upon 00:16:39.210 --> 00:16:40.680 funding from the federal government. 00:16:41.310 --> 00:16:45.810 And funding from the federal government is, it's haphazard. 00:16:45.810 --> 00:16:47.670 It, you know, it happens every year. 00:16:47.940 --> 00:16:53.350 Congress can fund programs for Indian tribes however they want to, and 00:16:53.350 --> 00:16:56.320 they usually are grossly underfunded. 00:16:56.800 --> 00:17:01.900 And that's the situation is if you don't have the capacity to enact 00:17:01.900 --> 00:17:07.630 property tax to provide services for your people, then you gotta rethink how 00:17:07.630 --> 00:17:11.230 you are gonna provide those services and what kind of services you provide. 00:17:11.680 --> 00:17:15.940 For instance, why run a jail if you don't have, if you don't have 00:17:15.940 --> 00:17:19.090 the revenue to run it properly? 00:17:19.560 --> 00:17:24.790 And why not do something that is more in line with your own traditional 00:17:25.240 --> 00:17:29.860 philosophy of how to deal with wrongdoing. 00:17:30.940 --> 00:17:31.150 That 00:17:31.150 --> 00:17:32.585 Rupert Isaacson: kind Is that, is that what you have? 00:17:32.830 --> 00:17:40.570 Is that where you have spent a lot of your career, is in that aspect of trying to 00:17:40.570 --> 00:17:45.970 change the relationship with wrongdoing? 00:17:46.330 --> 00:17:48.580 And if so, how on earth do you enforce that? 00:17:50.380 --> 00:17:54.180 Jeff Tomhave: Well, that is still an unrealized ambition of mine. 00:17:54.210 --> 00:17:54.240 Okay. 00:17:54.240 --> 00:17:56.100 But you asked why I wanted to get into this. 00:17:56.100 --> 00:17:56.370 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:17:56.550 --> 00:17:56.820 Okay. 00:17:56.820 --> 00:17:58.680 So this is like in principle, right? 00:17:58.680 --> 00:17:58.920 Jeff Tomhave: Yes. 00:17:58.925 --> 00:17:59.395 In principle. 00:17:59.395 --> 00:18:00.360 In principle, yeah. 00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:05.700 And I just use the, the, the jail analogy because everyone understands jail. 00:18:05.700 --> 00:18:09.240 So no matter where your audience is, they all understand, you know, 00:18:10.230 --> 00:18:14.400 what they're supposed to be and usually what they actually are. 00:18:14.460 --> 00:18:20.400 So you could imagine in the tribal aspect, there're a lot more there're a 00:18:20.400 --> 00:18:23.610 lot more degraded than, than elsewhere. 00:18:23.850 --> 00:18:26.010 And I've toured tribal jails. 00:18:26.010 --> 00:18:29.700 They're, they're actually really pretty bad. 00:18:30.120 --> 00:18:30.960 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I'm sure they are. 00:18:31.320 --> 00:18:40.140 What, what is, what have you spent, like, talk us through the highlights 00:18:40.500 --> 00:18:42.600 of your career in advocacy then. 00:18:42.900 --> 00:18:45.270 What have been the things that you've worked on? 00:18:45.690 --> 00:18:47.160 What have you seen succeed? 00:18:49.530 --> 00:18:53.990 Jeff Tomhave: Well, most of what we've spent, or Brandy and I have 00:18:53.990 --> 00:19:00.220 spent the last 22 years working on is infrastructure development 00:19:00.220 --> 00:19:02.260 that most people take for granted. 00:19:03.400 --> 00:19:10.900 For instance, you could live in any, any big city in America or any small, you 00:19:10.900 --> 00:19:17.690 know, rural county in America and you're probably going to have electricity, 00:19:17.930 --> 00:19:20.150 running water and a paved road outside. 00:19:20.480 --> 00:19:25.160 Now you may not be able to afford to hook up to that electricity 00:19:25.160 --> 00:19:28.400 or that running water, but you can walk on that paved road. 00:19:28.760 --> 00:19:31.550 It's available to you whether you can afford it or not. 00:19:32.060 --> 00:19:37.250 In a lot of places in Indian country, there still is not paved roads. 00:19:37.250 --> 00:19:39.590 There's still not running water, there's still not electricity. 00:19:40.060 --> 00:19:43.450 There are some places where there still not telephone service. 00:19:44.980 --> 00:19:48.670 Nowadays with cell phone service, that's pretty much over. 00:19:48.970 --> 00:19:54.640 But even 20 years ago, there were places you didn't have hardwire cell 00:19:54.690 --> 00:19:59.620 hardwire, landline telephone service just because it was too remote and too 00:19:59.620 --> 00:20:01.570 cost prohibitive to put it in there. 00:20:04.390 --> 00:20:06.640 Rupert Isaacson: So I'm just gonna play devil's advocate. 00:20:06.640 --> 00:20:11.320 'cause of course, when I was a kid growing up in the uk in the late 00:20:11.320 --> 00:20:16.090 seventies, early eighties, even on the farms a hundred miles from London, you 00:20:16.090 --> 00:20:17.770 didn't necessarily have electricity. 00:20:18.100 --> 00:20:20.350 People certainly didn't necessarily own a car. 00:20:20.710 --> 00:20:25.060 The road might not be paved, you know, and this happened somewhat slowly. 00:20:25.060 --> 00:20:26.380 You know, there'd been World War ii. 00:20:26.860 --> 00:20:29.560 Post-war austerity growth was slow. 00:20:30.050 --> 00:20:35.210 The, the general prosperity that one sees now in Western Europe wasn't there. 00:20:35.550 --> 00:20:36.420 The cities were filthy. 00:20:36.420 --> 00:20:38.250 They were, you know, falling down. 00:20:38.680 --> 00:20:39.580 That's changed now. 00:20:39.610 --> 00:20:43.595 But of course, if you, and when I was a kid in I have Portuguese family, 00:20:43.895 --> 00:20:48.815 and I remember in the countryside in Portugal, around then it was, people 00:20:48.815 --> 00:20:54.305 would still walk, women would walk a kilometer to get water pots on the head. 00:20:54.665 --> 00:20:56.915 And rural transport was Volkswagens. 00:20:57.305 --> 00:21:02.345 Not in, not in the capital in Lisbon, but outside in the mountain shore. 00:21:02.795 --> 00:21:03.575 Again, that changed. 00:21:03.635 --> 00:21:07.385 Then of course, I remember seeing Eastern Europe went through its thing and it 00:21:07.385 --> 00:21:11.795 went from, you know, horse agriculture to mechanized agriculture, kind of in 00:21:11.795 --> 00:21:13.715 front of my eyes after the war came down. 00:21:14.015 --> 00:21:21.905 So, and, and I remember even when I moved first to Texas 25 years ago or so, the 00:21:21.905 --> 00:21:25.475 community that we went were in certainly didn't have paved roads and, you know, and 00:21:25.475 --> 00:21:27.515 that was really just outside of Austin. 00:21:27.635 --> 00:21:35.015 But what you have said is true because in all of those cases, as 00:21:35.015 --> 00:21:38.915 soon as the governments could provide those services, they of course did. 00:21:39.465 --> 00:21:42.645 As soon as those revenues were there, you know, the pa the road 00:21:42.645 --> 00:21:45.705 outside our place in Texas did become bathed, et cetera, et cetera. 00:21:46.155 --> 00:21:50.625 And when I was working as a journalist in, say, on the Navajo reservation, back 00:21:50.625 --> 00:21:52.905 in the nineties, late nineties and so on. 00:21:53.085 --> 00:21:53.505 Yeah. 00:21:53.685 --> 00:22:04.095 The, the life that one saw was remotely rural in that way, that, that, you 00:22:04.095 --> 00:22:07.545 know, outside of certain places, there just were no services, period. 00:22:07.545 --> 00:22:10.155 People were self-sufficient and that was that. 00:22:10.755 --> 00:22:13.455 And I believe in, in many cases, probably still are. 00:22:14.715 --> 00:22:18.315 You have worked then trying to get that kind of infrastructure 00:22:19.065 --> 00:22:20.655 to these places, I presume. 00:22:20.655 --> 00:22:20.745 Yes. 00:22:21.435 --> 00:22:23.925 Have you done it and have you been successful at it? 00:22:25.295 --> 00:22:33.265 Jeff Tomhave: Yeah, we have because really when you you gotta find your champion 00:22:33.495 --> 00:22:38.815 whether it's in a member of Congress or it's someone in a federal agency. 00:22:39.355 --> 00:22:48.145 And once you do, and okay, this might not be how it is right now in 00:22:48.145 --> 00:22:51.550 Washington DC under this current, but 00:22:51.955 --> 00:22:53.230 Rupert Isaacson: who knows how it's right now in Washington, 00:22:53.950 --> 00:22:56.875 Jeff Tomhave: in, in our history, you know, in our experience. 00:22:56.875 --> 00:23:00.815 And, you know, we've been doing this brand and I have been doing this together 00:23:00.815 --> 00:23:06.575 for 22 years, but we've both been doing stuff like this for the previous 10 years. 00:23:07.055 --> 00:23:09.335 Just not with each other, not not our own company. 00:23:09.754 --> 00:23:13.235 Our experience has been that people come to DC because they 00:23:13.235 --> 00:23:17.074 want, they want to solve problems. 00:23:17.074 --> 00:23:21.935 They wanna, they want to fix things, they want to, they wanna leave a legacy. 00:23:22.175 --> 00:23:23.165 Rupert Isaacson: They wanna make things better. 00:23:23.284 --> 00:23:23.495 Yeah. 00:23:23.524 --> 00:23:24.754 Jeff Tomhave: They wanna make things better. 00:23:25.004 --> 00:23:30.975 And so you find that champion and you take, you know, in our case, our 00:23:30.975 --> 00:23:37.034 community story, and we usually begin in the local community and make, make it 00:23:39.195 --> 00:23:43.695 tell their story to that person that we eventually find as a champion. 00:23:43.699 --> 00:23:43.850 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:23:44.385 --> 00:23:48.074 Jeff Tomhave: And make it be their story, because they wanna be the hero, they 00:23:48.080 --> 00:23:50.355 want to be the hero of, of whatever. 00:23:50.415 --> 00:23:52.695 And so that's how we've been able to do it. 00:23:53.024 --> 00:23:57.794 We've been able to say, Hey, all we need is, you know, a couple hundred 00:23:57.794 --> 00:23:59.594 thousand dollars to do the study. 00:24:00.165 --> 00:24:01.754 Everything with the infrastructure. 00:24:01.935 --> 00:24:05.294 You gotta do the preliminary studies, the environmental studies, the 00:24:05.294 --> 00:24:08.385 historical studies, everything first. 00:24:08.685 --> 00:24:10.274 And that's usually the first phase. 00:24:10.635 --> 00:24:16.034 And then afterwards, then you find the funding to actually do the project. 00:24:16.604 --> 00:24:22.870 But once you've done the first step, which is the studies, the, the second 00:24:23.175 --> 00:24:28.094 step is usually much easier because, oh, you've already done step one. 00:24:28.274 --> 00:24:29.625 Now we just move on to step two. 00:24:30.044 --> 00:24:35.109 And, and that's how the process used to work here in dc. 00:24:37.089 --> 00:24:38.829 Hopefully we'll get back to that someday. 00:24:40.239 --> 00:24:40.719 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:24:41.110 --> 00:24:41.649 Jeff Tomhave: But yeah, 00:24:41.949 --> 00:24:47.709 Rupert Isaacson: so, so there you are based in dc you know, originally from deep 00:24:47.769 --> 00:24:52.899 within the American heartland, but then based in DC would a tribe then contact 00:24:52.899 --> 00:24:59.479 you or your firm, engage your services and say Jeff, we need this health service, 00:24:59.479 --> 00:25:02.810 we need this road, we need a better jail. 00:25:02.810 --> 00:25:04.009 We need a thing. 00:25:04.580 --> 00:25:04.759 Right. 00:25:04.809 --> 00:25:10.569 Can you help us to find a congressman or woman who will advocate for 00:25:10.569 --> 00:25:15.939 us and help us find that money to put into place this service? 00:25:16.089 --> 00:25:19.689 Is that basically describe what you would do 00:25:20.379 --> 00:25:20.979 Jeff Tomhave: Exactly. 00:25:21.039 --> 00:25:22.064 That, that's exactly how, 00:25:22.844 --> 00:25:23.134 Rupert Isaacson: okay. 00:25:23.134 --> 00:25:23.614 Exactly. 00:25:23.739 --> 00:25:25.059 Jeff Tomhave: How, how it works. 00:25:25.209 --> 00:25:28.389 Rupert Isaacson: Can you give us a couple of examples of where that succeeded? 00:25:29.919 --> 00:25:30.519 Jeff Tomhave: Sure. 00:25:31.929 --> 00:25:36.259 The I don't know how familiar you're with, with Navajo, but it's in three states. 00:25:36.259 --> 00:25:36.619 You know, 00:25:36.949 --> 00:25:38.959 Rupert Isaacson: I'm, I'm quite familiar with Navajo now. 00:25:38.959 --> 00:25:41.989 Primarily I'm coming to my own story with Navajo in a minute, but yeah. 00:25:42.019 --> 00:25:42.049 Jeff Tomhave: Okay. 00:25:42.049 --> 00:25:45.709 Primarily Arizona and New Mexico and a little, little part in Utah. 00:25:45.889 --> 00:25:46.219 Rupert Isaacson: Yep. 00:25:46.509 --> 00:25:50.809 Jeff Tomhave: The Utah section, there's a, there is a community 00:25:50.809 --> 00:25:52.819 there called Navajo Mountain. 00:25:53.389 --> 00:25:54.889 It's on Navajo Mountain. 00:25:55.609 --> 00:25:55.729 Mm-hmm. 00:25:55.780 --> 00:26:02.800 And there, it, it is in the Utah section, but the road to get to 00:26:02.800 --> 00:26:05.440 it starts in the Arizona section. 00:26:06.250 --> 00:26:10.270 There is no way to get to it from the Utah, from other places 00:26:10.600 --> 00:26:13.300 in Utah on U through Utah. 00:26:13.750 --> 00:26:19.670 The only road that goes there is in Arizona, so it's a 14 mile road. 00:26:20.390 --> 00:26:21.170 The 00:26:23.450 --> 00:26:29.090 students who went there were bused from all over the Utah section because in 00:26:29.120 --> 00:26:35.630 United States school districts work by, by, you know, districts, but they're, 00:26:35.630 --> 00:26:37.310 they're confined to their states. 00:26:37.310 --> 00:26:41.720 And so the Utah School District represented about half of the 00:26:41.720 --> 00:26:43.550 Utah section, the Navajo Nation. 00:26:43.880 --> 00:26:47.690 And in order for the kids to get to that school, they had to be bused through the 00:26:47.690 --> 00:26:50.180 Arizona section and then back up to Utah. 00:26:50.600 --> 00:26:55.940 It was about a four hour one way drive for some, if not most of the students. 00:26:56.180 --> 00:26:56.540 Rupert Isaacson: Wow. 00:26:56.630 --> 00:27:03.530 Jeff Tomhave: And the, the, the parents got frustrated because, you 00:27:03.530 --> 00:27:08.630 know, obviously when it rains there and the, the roads turn into mud bogs, 00:27:08.990 --> 00:27:11.150 the school bus can't get through. 00:27:11.150 --> 00:27:14.990 And so kids are missing all kinds of school missing so much school, 00:27:14.990 --> 00:27:17.760 in fact, that I believe if you miss. 00:27:18.590 --> 00:27:24.170 Something like 16 school days in a, in a school year, you actually 00:27:24.170 --> 00:27:27.230 have to be held back for the next year because you've missed too much. 00:27:27.230 --> 00:27:30.230 School kids were, that was happening repeatedly. 00:27:30.590 --> 00:27:35.860 Parents were frustrated and so they actually sued not only the the Bureau of 00:27:35.860 --> 00:27:41.950 Indian Affairs, but the Navajo Nation and the state of Utah to say, Hey, fix this 00:27:41.950 --> 00:27:46.570 road so that, you know, it doesn't take four hours to get there, you know, so that 00:27:47.380 --> 00:27:51.400 kids can get there in a normal, you know, school drive, you know, an hour at most, 00:27:51.400 --> 00:27:53.350 you know, or school bus drive an hour. 00:27:53.350 --> 00:27:53.860 At most. 00:27:55.090 --> 00:27:57.310 The lawsuit was actually successful. 00:27:57.580 --> 00:28:03.580 And all three of the parties, the Navajo Nation, the state of Utah, and the 00:28:03.580 --> 00:28:08.410 Bureau of Indian Affairs, they actually built a brand new school in Utah. 00:28:08.500 --> 00:28:09.160 Two new schools. 00:28:09.160 --> 00:28:12.410 In fact, the, the the primary school in the secondary school, 00:28:12.710 --> 00:28:16.490 brand new beautiful facilities, and they paved the road all the way 00:28:16.490 --> 00:28:19.070 from the school to the Utah border. 00:28:19.640 --> 00:28:24.050 Problem was the Arizona side was still a dirt road, so there's 14 00:28:24.050 --> 00:28:28.070 miles that was still a dirt road, so the problem was still in existence. 00:28:29.330 --> 00:28:34.900 So we took that issue and took it to Navajo's. 00:28:35.705 --> 00:28:42.395 Representative at the time and said, this is an obvious equal protection argument. 00:28:42.395 --> 00:28:45.485 This is a constitutional issue. 00:28:45.785 --> 00:28:50.645 These kids have a, have a constitutional right to get to school 00:28:50.705 --> 00:28:56.165 like any other kid in any other district school district in America. 00:28:56.525 --> 00:28:57.965 And that was the winning argument. 00:28:57.995 --> 00:29:01.895 Our member of Congress was able to get us the money for that. 00:29:02.285 --> 00:29:09.035 And in that time, in that process of, of getting the, the roadway 00:29:09.515 --> 00:29:12.665 paved, what had happened was that 00:29:14.825 --> 00:29:20.315 the local utility, the Navajo owned utility, put in new water lines 00:29:20.345 --> 00:29:22.595 along that right of way of the road. 00:29:23.075 --> 00:29:27.125 And they also put in new electrical and new internet lines. 00:29:27.125 --> 00:29:33.465 And so not only did we get this 14 sec, 14 mile section of road 00:29:33.465 --> 00:29:38.745 paved, but they got brand new infrastructure all the way because 00:29:38.805 --> 00:29:40.485 the road was actually not being used. 00:29:40.485 --> 00:29:43.215 And so they could do all of that maintenance work and all that, 00:29:43.215 --> 00:29:44.495 all that construction work. 00:29:44.795 --> 00:29:49.985 And so now, the Navajo Mountain schools are like state of the art. 00:29:49.985 --> 00:29:51.815 They're winning awards in Utah. 00:29:51.965 --> 00:29:55.685 They've got this robotics team that they do robotics 00:29:55.715 --> 00:29:57.335 competitions all over the country. 00:29:57.425 --> 00:30:02.795 And so that's sort of like one one example, another example we got a 00:30:02.795 --> 00:30:12.075 call from a local Navajo aids patient advocacy groups saying we can't get 00:30:12.075 --> 00:30:18.585 any treatment for HIV aids, you know, and, and, you know, our local Indian 00:30:18.585 --> 00:30:23.415 Health Service is not being responsive, you know, do something about this. 00:30:23.655 --> 00:30:27.645 So we actually looked into what that was, and we found out that 00:30:29.875 --> 00:30:33.805 treatment for HIV aids, that wasn't anything that the Indian Health 00:30:33.805 --> 00:30:36.325 Service was off, was authorized to do. 00:30:36.775 --> 00:30:41.125 They were authorized to provide prevention and awareness and 00:30:41.125 --> 00:30:43.105 screening, but not treatment. 00:30:43.465 --> 00:30:46.135 And so that was a, a pretty easy one. 00:30:46.315 --> 00:30:53.075 So when the reauthorization for the federal HIV aids treatment bill came 00:30:53.075 --> 00:30:56.705 through, we were able to get the internet health service included in that. 00:30:57.215 --> 00:30:58.895 And I say that as though that was easy. 00:30:58.895 --> 00:31:00.935 It actually took us about four years to do that. 00:31:01.205 --> 00:31:07.955 But it was a, it was a really easy fix because the local community thought their. 00:31:08.420 --> 00:31:13.950 Their local Indian health Service was being unresponsive, not knowing 00:31:13.950 --> 00:31:16.710 that they weren't, they weren't able to do this anyway, but we 00:31:16.710 --> 00:31:18.300 were able to get them to do this. 00:31:18.630 --> 00:31:23.310 And so now HIV AIDS treatment is available throughout Indian country 00:31:23.310 --> 00:31:24.630 because we were able to do that. 00:31:25.500 --> 00:31:28.090 Rupert Isaacson: What's interesting to me about that story is given that AIDS 00:31:28.090 --> 00:31:32.620 was such a big thing surely you as a Native American, you know, would've been 00:31:32.620 --> 00:31:36.430 aware that that service was lacking. 00:31:36.760 --> 00:31:41.140 Like would've heard someone saying about something about it somewhere. 00:31:41.710 --> 00:31:42.790 It's interesting. 00:31:43.090 --> 00:31:46.210 And, you know, I would've assumed, okay, it's a health, you know, 00:31:46.210 --> 00:31:47.170 there are health services. 00:31:47.380 --> 00:31:50.950 AIDS is the thing that would be sort of on the, and of course my background's 00:31:50.950 --> 00:31:52.810 in Africa, lots of it down there. 00:31:52.960 --> 00:31:59.230 So, you know, it's just front and center to find out that it 00:31:59.230 --> 00:32:03.160 wasn't, is, let's say, surprising. 00:32:03.400 --> 00:32:04.600 What were people doing? 00:32:04.600 --> 00:32:05.680 Were they just dying at home? 00:32:07.330 --> 00:32:09.640 Jeff Tomhave: Or they'd go off reservation to go seek treatment? 00:32:09.700 --> 00:32:10.030 Yeah. 00:32:10.120 --> 00:32:10.510 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:32:10.690 --> 00:32:11.170 Okay. 00:32:12.160 --> 00:32:17.530 So if they could afford to find some health insurance somewhere, they could go 00:32:17.530 --> 00:32:19.840 and get it, but not on the reservation. 00:32:20.080 --> 00:32:26.290 If they were dependent upon the local reservation service, they might die. 00:32:27.280 --> 00:32:27.700 Jeff Tomhave: Right. 00:32:27.820 --> 00:32:28.150 Exactly. 00:32:28.150 --> 00:32:28.420 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:32:28.750 --> 00:32:29.080 Wow. 00:32:30.020 --> 00:32:30.350 Okay. 00:32:30.350 --> 00:32:30.885 Tell us another one. 00:32:32.405 --> 00:32:37.085 Jeff Tomhave: Well, I, I know Brandy had mentioned this one but we were able to get 00:32:37.085 --> 00:32:42.015 the first cancer treatment center on a, on Indian Indian reservation at the Tuba 00:32:42.015 --> 00:32:44.375 City Hospital in on the Navajo Nation. 00:32:44.855 --> 00:32:46.445 And that was a 10 year process. 00:32:46.450 --> 00:32:46.460 Okay. 00:32:47.715 --> 00:32:53.845 But the finding the the oncologists and finding the 00:32:53.975 --> 00:32:57.995 pharmacy and all the specialized equipment, that was the easy part. 00:32:58.505 --> 00:33:02.825 The hard part was getting the federal government to reimburse the services, 00:33:03.215 --> 00:33:07.325 which they do everywhere else across the country except for Indian country 00:33:07.865 --> 00:33:10.175 because they weren't authorized to do so. 00:33:10.355 --> 00:33:15.245 And so it, it was a 10 year process for us to get the federal agency that does 00:33:15.245 --> 00:33:17.045 that, to get them authorized to do that. 00:33:17.435 --> 00:33:19.145 Rupert Isaacson: Why were they not authorized and why would it be 00:33:19.145 --> 00:33:20.735 difficult to get 'em to be authorized? 00:33:22.385 --> 00:33:24.185 Jeff Tomhave: Well, because 00:33:26.525 --> 00:33:30.455 pretty much everybody in the federal government assumes that, well, since 00:33:30.455 --> 00:33:32.735 there is a bureau of Indian Affairs right? 00:33:32.735 --> 00:33:36.485 And there's an Indian Health Service, they're the ones that do all that stuff. 00:33:37.295 --> 00:33:41.555 Not knowing that they actually don't do all of that stuff. 00:33:41.615 --> 00:33:44.375 They're very limited in what they can do. 00:33:44.945 --> 00:33:47.615 Even more limited in, in how they're funded. 00:33:47.855 --> 00:33:53.625 And so a lot of other federal agencies actually provide services 00:33:54.075 --> 00:33:59.445 for Indian tribes in Indian country through other programs. 00:33:59.625 --> 00:34:03.765 It's just that the leadership of those agencies and departments 00:34:04.005 --> 00:34:08.115 might not necessarily ever even know that or be aware of that. 00:34:08.445 --> 00:34:15.235 So they didn't, they didn't know that and they didn't wanna know about that. 00:34:15.775 --> 00:34:17.185 So that's why it took us 10 years. 00:34:18.715 --> 00:34:19.285 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:34:19.345 --> 00:34:20.575 And what are you working on now? 00:34:20.575 --> 00:34:21.625 What's the current project? 00:34:22.805 --> 00:34:26.805 Jeff Tomhave: Well right now the the hospital is it's the hospital 00:34:26.805 --> 00:34:30.035 that where we were able to get the cancer services stood up. 00:34:30.905 --> 00:34:35.695 They their actual building is well over 50 years old and so 00:34:35.695 --> 00:34:37.285 they wanna get it replaced. 00:34:37.405 --> 00:34:39.325 It's gonna be about a billion dollars. 00:34:39.385 --> 00:34:45.475 And as I've told them, there's, there are no pot of money in Washington DC that is 00:34:45.475 --> 00:34:47.125 a billion dollars to replace a hospital. 00:34:47.125 --> 00:34:51.595 We're gonna have to do it in, in stages and in phases and, and, and all that. 00:34:51.925 --> 00:34:55.535 But no, we that's the big one that I'm working on right now. 00:34:55.825 --> 00:35:00.625 But also because of the work that we were doing with cancer. 00:35:00.775 --> 00:35:06.345 I'm starting a an organization that is gonna try to get cancer treatment 00:35:06.345 --> 00:35:08.495 on reservations more readily. 00:35:08.735 --> 00:35:12.995 Now that we've been able to get the services reimbursed, now we actually 00:35:12.995 --> 00:35:14.375 want to start providing services. 00:35:14.375 --> 00:35:21.185 And so I'm working with the handful of, of native oncologists across the country. 00:35:21.546 --> 00:35:23.796 And when I say handful, I mean a handful. 00:35:23.796 --> 00:35:28.475 There was only five that we know of, of native oncologists, and 00:35:28.475 --> 00:35:31.406 they're all willing to partner and, and get this thing going. 00:35:32.276 --> 00:35:32.816 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:35:33.266 --> 00:35:36.566 You know, it's, it's very interesting when, I remember when I moved to 00:35:36.566 --> 00:35:41.665 the USA one of my first questions was, where do I find Indians? 00:35:42.056 --> 00:35:43.346 Where do I find Indian culture? 00:35:43.466 --> 00:35:48.756 And I moved to California when I first moved, and so, you know, it was 00:35:48.816 --> 00:35:56.346 San Francisco and my then partner's, you know, friendship Circle was very 00:35:56.346 --> 00:35:59.316 liberal, very progressive, very East Bay. 00:36:00.006 --> 00:36:00.096 Mm-hmm. 00:36:00.336 --> 00:36:01.056 So I thought, oh, they'll know. 00:36:02.136 --> 00:36:06.636 In the same way that if you, if you are Southern African, you, you know 00:36:06.636 --> 00:36:09.936 where the tribes live, you know that, you know the clauses are there 00:36:09.936 --> 00:36:11.436 in the Eastern cape, you know that. 00:36:11.766 --> 00:36:14.136 Tu are up there in Latu. 00:36:14.166 --> 00:36:17.046 You know that the su swazis are there In Su Swaziland, there're is zululand. 00:36:17.376 --> 00:36:20.196 There is, you know, up in Botswana it's the Botswana, there's Shauna 00:36:20.196 --> 00:36:21.876 and the end Bailey, that's Zimbabwe. 00:36:22.086 --> 00:36:23.076 You, you know this. 00:36:23.076 --> 00:36:27.396 And you, you might be unaware of some smaller tribes and know, and there also 00:36:27.396 --> 00:36:32.796 might be not so nice colonial reasons why they are placed, where they are placed. 00:36:32.796 --> 00:36:39.246 But you do know, I mean, you would know where to go, what you know, to, to see 00:36:39.246 --> 00:36:43.386 and experience the indigenous culture. 00:36:44.556 --> 00:36:51.216 What flummoxed me when I got to the USA was like, no, like not only did people not 00:36:51.216 --> 00:36:53.376 know, but they really didn't want to know. 00:36:53.766 --> 00:37:03.726 And so you would ask people including liberal, educated, you know, Northern 00:37:03.726 --> 00:37:11.316 Californians and the, the resistance to it and the dismissal of the question 00:37:12.096 --> 00:37:14.766 was almost a little bit hostile. 00:37:14.886 --> 00:37:17.886 And it was interesting to me. 00:37:17.886 --> 00:37:18.366 I thought, wow. 00:37:18.366 --> 00:37:20.196 And, and, and then I would ask, well, aren't you interested? 00:37:20.196 --> 00:37:21.396 I mean, you know, you're born here. 00:37:21.396 --> 00:37:24.666 I mean, you're born on that mountain and surely you'd kind of want to know, 00:37:24.666 --> 00:37:28.146 and that mountain kind of has an Indian name or the, the state has an Indian 00:37:28.146 --> 00:37:30.216 name, or the river has an Indian name. 00:37:30.216 --> 00:37:33.306 And aren't you kind of curious about, you know, just who the people were? 00:37:33.336 --> 00:37:34.926 I mean, aren't you curious about the history, even if 00:37:34.926 --> 00:37:35.826 they're not there anymore? 00:37:36.816 --> 00:37:37.296 No. 00:37:37.866 --> 00:37:38.976 The answer was like, no. 00:37:39.246 --> 00:37:41.226 And I think, what, what's the difference? 00:37:41.226 --> 00:37:44.736 Why, why were people so incurious? 00:37:45.186 --> 00:37:49.536 Almost deliberately incurious, and it's my journalist mind. 00:37:49.536 --> 00:37:51.186 It's like, I've gotta know this, you know? 00:37:51.486 --> 00:37:52.776 And then I realized, oh, I see. 00:37:52.776 --> 00:37:58.536 Because the colonial experience in southern Africa, while brutal was not that 00:37:58.536 --> 00:38:05.406 type of genocide there were genocides that happened, but overall, there wasn't enough 00:38:05.736 --> 00:38:07.986 overwhelming white settlement coming in. 00:38:08.286 --> 00:38:13.896 There weren't tens of millions of people getting on ships from Europe and 00:38:13.896 --> 00:38:18.216 going down to South Africa, there were, you know, maybe a couple of million. 00:38:18.466 --> 00:38:22.696 So just pure economics, you're not gonna go down and wipe out the labor 00:38:22.696 --> 00:38:27.166 force, and you couldn't, if you tried something might happen like a smallpox 00:38:27.166 --> 00:38:33.106 epidemic or a, a particularly brutal local war those things for sure happened. 00:38:33.496 --> 00:38:37.096 But in general, you were always gonna be outnumbered by the people who lived 00:38:37.096 --> 00:38:40.696 there, which of course meant that sooner or later they were gonna take it back. 00:38:40.696 --> 00:38:41.866 And that's of course what happened. 00:38:42.556 --> 00:38:49.006 But the story in North America was so different because the sheer volume 00:38:49.216 --> 00:38:53.596 of people coming in was greater than the number of people who were 00:38:53.596 --> 00:38:56.265 living there in the first place. 00:38:56.596 --> 00:38:56.806 Right. 00:38:57.076 --> 00:38:59.356 And so there was. 00:39:00.046 --> 00:39:02.086 No other way that it was gonna go. 00:39:02.536 --> 00:39:07.736 And I thought, I see there must be some sort of deep-rooted guilt about 00:39:07.736 --> 00:39:13.526 that, which makes people incurious, who even would, these would be the 00:39:13.526 --> 00:39:16.826 sort of people who would go to an anti-apartheid rally, you know? 00:39:16.826 --> 00:39:22.375 Or perhaps now it would be something for freedom for Palestine or something. 00:39:22.375 --> 00:39:22.466 Yes. 00:39:23.395 --> 00:39:29.665 But they wouldn't take up the flag for the local Indian tribe. 00:39:29.665 --> 00:39:33.145 And, and so I, I was asking people, well, who are the local Indians here? 00:39:33.145 --> 00:39:36.326 There must be, I mean, you know, there were people living here before. 00:39:36.446 --> 00:39:39.296 I mean, I know San Francisco's, you know, been a Spanish settlement for a 00:39:39.296 --> 00:39:43.736 long time, but before them, there were people here and I'm looking on the map. 00:39:43.766 --> 00:39:44.696 Look, there's reservations. 00:39:44.701 --> 00:39:46.526 Look, look, no, what's that tribe? 00:39:46.736 --> 00:39:49.945 You know, it begins with m it's you know, and have you been there? 00:39:50.005 --> 00:39:50.455 No. 00:39:51.535 --> 00:39:52.255 Do you wanna go there? 00:39:52.285 --> 00:39:52.735 No. 00:39:53.785 --> 00:39:54.595 Why not? 00:39:55.285 --> 00:39:56.635 Why are you asking these questions? 00:39:57.745 --> 00:39:59.365 Okay, interesting. 00:39:59.695 --> 00:40:05.296 So then, of course, I had to go and I found out about, so I, you 00:40:05.296 --> 00:40:06.375 asked me about Navajo Nation. 00:40:06.375 --> 00:40:10.575 I owe a debt of gratitude to Indian country and Navajo Nation. 00:40:10.575 --> 00:40:14.656 Now, I would say that anyone who's gone and lived in America, or benefited 00:40:14.656 --> 00:40:18.526 from America in any way, of course owes a debt of gratitude to Native 00:40:18.526 --> 00:40:21.106 America because they created America. 00:40:21.345 --> 00:40:24.406 And so if you have benefited from America, you have benefited from. 00:40:24.810 --> 00:40:26.340 The fruits of those peoples. 00:40:26.880 --> 00:40:29.250 But that's, but in a more direct way. 00:40:29.490 --> 00:40:35.670 I began a journalistic experience in Navajo Nation that started in the late 00:40:36.060 --> 00:40:40.140 nineties and then popped up again a couple of times where I was following 00:40:40.140 --> 00:40:41.910 various land rights issues there. 00:40:42.400 --> 00:40:46.990 In the same way that I was doing it in Africa and reporting on it, not for 00:40:47.050 --> 00:40:50.290 American press, but for British press because Brits are interested in it. 00:40:51.070 --> 00:40:57.610 By the time my son became diagnosed with severe autism and those of you, you know, 00:40:57.610 --> 00:41:02.710 who know my story that I went to Mongolia and there was a very big healing there. 00:41:02.710 --> 00:41:06.130 And then I was back in Africa and then I found myself in 00:41:06.130 --> 00:41:07.780 Australia in the rainforest there. 00:41:08.020 --> 00:41:10.840 But my, the final healing was actually on Navajo. 00:41:11.830 --> 00:41:17.420 And it was this guy called Chi who also went by the name of Blue Horse. 00:41:17.960 --> 00:41:27.270 And at the end of that healing where we sweated on behalf of my son my son 00:41:27.270 --> 00:41:34.410 became like properly conversational that day, not a week afterwards. 00:41:37.095 --> 00:41:37.875 That day. 00:41:38.295 --> 00:41:42.945 And he did it on I 40 driving out of Navajo reservation. 00:41:42.945 --> 00:41:49.395 He said something to me that was not what his previous scripted 00:41:49.395 --> 00:41:53.085 autism, you know, it was, we had just come out of the last ceremony, 00:41:53.415 --> 00:41:53.505 Jeff Tomhave: mm-hmm. 00:41:53.745 --> 00:41:55.785 Rupert Isaacson: Sunrise ceremony with, with pollen. 00:41:56.325 --> 00:42:00.885 And subsequently various friends of mine went to this healer for various things. 00:42:00.885 --> 00:42:05.985 And all of them ended up with a very, very positive outcome. 00:42:07.245 --> 00:42:08.355 And 00:42:11.385 --> 00:42:13.125 so I have this debt. 00:42:13.785 --> 00:42:18.495 And also professionally, I have a debt because my first break into journalism 00:42:18.495 --> 00:42:22.155 was actually given to me by the Cree Indians when I was living up in Canada. 00:42:22.365 --> 00:42:26.595 I reported on their land rights issue where the government, hydro company, 00:42:26.595 --> 00:42:28.755 hydro Quebec, was going to flood. 00:42:29.055 --> 00:42:32.265 It blew my mind an area the size of France 00:42:32.835 --> 00:42:33.075 Jeff Tomhave: mm-hmm. 00:42:33.081 --> 00:42:33.150 And 00:42:33.340 --> 00:42:39.675 Rupert Isaacson: area the size of France to sell this wa hydroelectricity 00:42:39.675 --> 00:42:41.205 to the New England states. 00:42:41.535 --> 00:42:46.125 And the flow of the water was going to be so big that it was gonna cause 00:42:46.125 --> 00:42:49.455 the earth's crus to shift and release all this mercury from the bedrock. 00:42:49.795 --> 00:42:52.735 And it actually had happened before in the seventies and a smaller. 00:42:53.650 --> 00:42:54.580 Way. 00:42:54.580 --> 00:42:59.590 So they, the Cree had managed to get a settlement from the government 00:42:59.590 --> 00:43:01.090 and they'd used it quite wisely. 00:43:01.300 --> 00:43:03.910 Quite a lot of their kids had ended up going off to law school 'cause 00:43:03.910 --> 00:43:05.590 they knew that it would happen again. 00:43:06.160 --> 00:43:08.470 And of course when it did, they were sort of ready. 00:43:08.830 --> 00:43:10.150 And I went and reported on that. 00:43:10.150 --> 00:43:11.980 Again, not for the Canadian press, not for the American 00:43:12.010 --> 00:43:13.330 press, but for the British press. 00:43:13.780 --> 00:43:15.310 And they were successful. 00:43:15.940 --> 00:43:19.120 And they gave me that story 'cause I went up there as a completely 00:43:19.120 --> 00:43:21.340 poverty stricken freelance journalist. 00:43:21.340 --> 00:43:24.820 And they flew me around on the, on the sea planes. 00:43:24.820 --> 00:43:28.000 And they got me out to the trapping camps on the snowmobiles. 00:43:28.000 --> 00:43:29.680 And all of this would've cost thousands. 00:43:29.680 --> 00:43:32.290 Thousands so I could get that story out. 00:43:32.680 --> 00:43:43.600 And so I owe so much to Native America, and I'm always intrigued by how 00:43:43.600 --> 00:43:47.230 invisible it is when you are in the USA. 00:43:47.890 --> 00:43:49.780 I was just in Florida, right? 00:43:49.780 --> 00:43:52.570 I was just in Florida and I went to visit a friend who lives in a 00:43:52.570 --> 00:43:55.300 place called Jupiter, Florida, which is just outside Palm West Farm. 00:43:56.170 --> 00:44:02.740 And I am driving around and then I see this little blo, you know, 00:44:02.740 --> 00:44:04.030 brown plaque about a battle. 00:44:04.690 --> 00:44:09.850 I'm like that battle, the date, it could only have been against 00:44:09.850 --> 00:44:12.940 Indians, it couldn't have been against the Spanish or anything. 00:44:13.060 --> 00:44:14.860 And I remembered, oh yeah, the Seminole Wars. 00:44:14.860 --> 00:44:16.330 I'd heard of the Seminole Wars. 00:44:17.140 --> 00:44:17.350 Yeah. 00:44:17.350 --> 00:44:17.560 Yeah. 00:44:17.560 --> 00:44:19.900 So I get on Wikipedia, I look up and I realized I'm in the 00:44:19.900 --> 00:44:21.430 middle of Seminole country. 00:44:22.210 --> 00:44:25.300 And there are actually semial reservations around me, but 00:44:25.480 --> 00:44:28.060 there is zero evidence of it. 00:44:28.360 --> 00:44:31.330 So why is this Jeff? 00:44:32.230 --> 00:44:34.810 Why, you know, somewhere like Navajo notion. 00:44:34.840 --> 00:44:35.440 Okay. 00:44:35.620 --> 00:44:40.120 In the southwest, huge areas, vast, you know, remote. 00:44:40.180 --> 00:44:40.450 Okay. 00:44:40.450 --> 00:44:42.130 And then when you get in there, oh yeah, okay. 00:44:42.130 --> 00:44:43.390 Here's a big intact culture. 00:44:44.470 --> 00:44:47.320 But we can understand that it's a schlep to get in there 00:44:47.320 --> 00:44:48.580 'cause it's a remote place. 00:44:49.330 --> 00:44:53.350 But when you're dealing with places like Upstate New York or California, 00:44:53.410 --> 00:44:56.380 or Florida, it's not remote. 00:44:57.250 --> 00:44:57.520 Jeff Tomhave: Yeah. 00:44:57.700 --> 00:45:00.010 Rupert Isaacson: These people are living right there in the communities. 00:45:00.160 --> 00:45:01.570 So why is it invisible? 00:45:01.630 --> 00:45:03.010 Why is Native America invisible? 00:45:04.760 --> 00:45:09.860 As you know, if you followed any of my work, I'm an autism dad and we have 00:45:09.860 --> 00:45:16.420 a whole career before this podcast in helping people with neurodivergence, 00:45:17.100 --> 00:45:19.320 either who are professionals in the field. 00:45:19.400 --> 00:45:20.240 Are you a therapist? 00:45:20.660 --> 00:45:21.930 Are you a caregiver? 00:45:22.320 --> 00:45:23.330 Are you a parent? 00:45:23.765 --> 00:45:25.795 Or are you somebody with neurodivergence? 00:45:27.235 --> 00:45:32.175 When my son, Rowan, was diagnosed with autism in 2004, 00:45:32.215 --> 00:45:33.845 I really didn't know what to do. 00:45:34.045 --> 00:45:39.315 So I reached out for mentorship, and I found it through an amazing adult 00:45:39.355 --> 00:45:42.155 autistic woman who's very famous, Dr. 00:45:42.305 --> 00:45:43.195 Temple Grandin. 00:45:43.395 --> 00:45:45.035 And she told me what to do. 00:45:45.085 --> 00:45:49.325 And it's been working so amazingly for the last 20 years. 00:45:49.675 --> 00:45:54.125 That not only is my son basically independent, but we've helped 00:45:54.385 --> 00:45:58.135 countless, countless thousands of others reach the same goal. 00:45:58.475 --> 00:46:02.375 Working in schools, working at home, working in therapy settings. 00:46:03.405 --> 00:46:07.845 If you would like to learn this cutting edge, neuroscience backed 00:46:08.065 --> 00:46:10.105 approach, it's called Movement Method. 00:46:10.765 --> 00:46:14.123 You can learn it online, you can learn it very, very simply. 00:46:14.123 --> 00:46:16.385 It's almost laughably simple. 00:46:17.325 --> 00:46:20.025 The important thing is to begin. 00:46:20.955 --> 00:46:24.105 Let yourself be mentored as I was by Dr. 00:46:24.105 --> 00:46:27.395 Grandin and see what results can follow. 00:46:28.425 --> 00:46:31.355 Go to this website, newtrailslearning. 00:46:33.625 --> 00:46:36.130 com Sign up as a gold member. 00:46:36.570 --> 00:46:39.460 Take the online movement method course. 00:46:39.950 --> 00:46:41.320 It's in 40 countries. 00:46:41.930 --> 00:46:43.990 Let us know how it goes for you. 00:46:44.190 --> 00:46:44.960 We really want to know. 00:46:44.970 --> 00:46:49.470 We really want to help people like me, people like you, out there 00:46:49.820 --> 00:46:53.100 live their best life, to live free, ride free, see what happens. 00:46:54.090 --> 00:46:55.020 Jeff Tomhave: Two reasons. 00:46:55.150 --> 00:47:00.280 I'm gonna give you the, the simple answer first is because Native 00:47:00.280 --> 00:47:02.200 Americans are also Americans. 00:47:02.290 --> 00:47:13.150 And so when you live in an urban area, say in Southern California or Phoenix 00:47:13.150 --> 00:47:21.310 or Albuquerque or Miami, you're gonna, it's hard to differentiate where the 00:47:21.310 --> 00:47:25.300 suburbs end and the reservation begins because you have the same businesses. 00:47:25.630 --> 00:47:25.990 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:47:25.990 --> 00:47:29.980 Jeff Tomhave: And so, so Native Americans are Americans. 00:47:30.340 --> 00:47:36.220 They like the same fast food culture and, and big box store 00:47:36.220 --> 00:47:37.660 culture as everyone else. 00:47:37.660 --> 00:47:38.110 And so. 00:47:38.545 --> 00:47:40.195 That's the easy answer. 00:47:40.795 --> 00:47:46.225 The harder answer is because of the checkerboard system. 00:47:46.885 --> 00:47:50.335 Now, this goes way back in US history. 00:47:50.545 --> 00:47:54.685 Basically to get the railroads built, the federal government promised the 00:47:54.685 --> 00:48:01.225 railroads, Hey, every 10 miles we're gonna give you, you know, a 10 mile 00:48:01.225 --> 00:48:07.165 stretch and it can go for another 20 miles so that you can build your towns. 00:48:07.165 --> 00:48:10.705 And, you know, obviously, 'cause it was steam engines, they, they needed 00:48:10.795 --> 00:48:14.845 every, every 10 miles or so, they needed to get water for their engines. 00:48:14.845 --> 00:48:19.195 And so you could build that infrastructure there and put towns in and you, 00:48:19.195 --> 00:48:22.405 you could sell all that, lease, all that property to pay for all this. 00:48:22.525 --> 00:48:23.335 We'll give that to you. 00:48:23.575 --> 00:48:27.295 Well, where did those, where did that land come from? 00:48:27.895 --> 00:48:29.425 It came from reservations. 00:48:29.455 --> 00:48:33.535 It, it, the reservations that were negotiated, that's 00:48:33.535 --> 00:48:34.825 where that land came from. 00:48:35.275 --> 00:48:41.095 And so part of part of it was building the railroads, took a lot of Indian land 00:48:41.545 --> 00:48:49.245 and then the allotment act, which when public lands were open to homesteaders, 00:48:49.665 --> 00:48:55.185 they said, Hey, come and get all your, you know, your, your 40 acres and, and 00:48:55.965 --> 00:48:58.695 you know, you can prosper and, and. 00:48:59.460 --> 00:49:00.450 You'll succeed. 00:49:01.050 --> 00:49:04.920 And so that's where a lot of a lot of reservations became 00:49:04.920 --> 00:49:06.330 diminished because of that. 00:49:06.390 --> 00:49:06.990 And so 00:49:09.600 --> 00:49:11.990 I know that you've experienced this because I've, I've heard you 00:49:11.990 --> 00:49:15.530 speak about this where you're on a reservation and you don't know 00:49:15.530 --> 00:49:17.510 you're necessarily on a reservation. 00:49:17.930 --> 00:49:22.970 That's also because of right of way, if you're driving on a highway that is 00:49:22.970 --> 00:49:27.260 not the reservation, that's the right of way or of the state or the county. 00:49:27.560 --> 00:49:31.910 And so all of the billboards, all of the gas stations, basically everything 00:49:31.910 --> 00:49:37.550 in that right of way is gonna look as though it's any road, any place else. 00:49:37.850 --> 00:49:41.840 And it isn't until you get off of those roads and go a couple of miles into this, 00:49:41.900 --> 00:49:47.480 to the communities that you'll actually find the Indian settlements, the, the 00:49:47.480 --> 00:49:50.570 people you know, and, and, and that, 00:49:53.030 --> 00:49:57.320 but I also think that what you touched on earlier is also true. 00:49:57.320 --> 00:50:01.460 There's a lot of white guilt in Americans they don't wanna know, 00:50:01.520 --> 00:50:02.660 and so they don't want to see it. 00:50:03.050 --> 00:50:09.810 And so they're, they're, they're more than happy to go buy tax-free cigarettes 00:50:09.810 --> 00:50:12.390 and tax-free gasolines on reservations. 00:50:12.750 --> 00:50:13.980 But that's the extent of it. 00:50:15.510 --> 00:50:15.990 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 00:50:16.770 --> 00:50:18.120 I've got a challenging question. 00:50:18.390 --> 00:50:22.950 So Colonialization is a two-edged sword. 00:50:23.340 --> 00:50:26.070 You know, have you ever seen Monty Python's life of Brian? 00:50:26.400 --> 00:50:26.785 You know, of course. 00:50:26.805 --> 00:50:31.140 And there's, there's the scene where it's the liberation front, you know, 00:50:31.140 --> 00:50:32.730 the ju the Judean Liberation front. 00:50:32.880 --> 00:50:34.230 What are the Romans ever done for us? 00:50:34.470 --> 00:50:35.670 Hey, hey, you know, so well 00:50:35.670 --> 00:50:36.390 Jeff Tomhave: roads 00:50:36.390 --> 00:50:38.670 Rupert Isaacson: aqueduct, apart from Aqueduct, what are they? 00:50:38.670 --> 00:50:40.920 Well, roads well apart from Rhodes, what are they? 00:50:41.100 --> 00:50:44.340 And then they go through the, well, apart from roads, aqueduct healthcare, 00:50:44.340 --> 00:50:47.190 you know, blah, blah, blah, you know, what have they ever done for us? 00:50:47.580 --> 00:50:53.380 And it's poignant because you said, you know, Amer native Americans are Americans, 00:50:53.380 --> 00:50:59.080 they like box store culture, they like fast food culture, et cetera, et cetera. 00:51:00.190 --> 00:51:08.050 And I'm curious about that because that is of course the hand of colonialism. 00:51:09.430 --> 00:51:16.030 If you like destroying culture and I'm, you and I both know that there are many, 00:51:16.030 --> 00:51:21.190 many enclaves of Native America within all over North America, where actually 00:51:21.190 --> 00:51:24.220 the original culture is very, very strong. 00:51:24.800 --> 00:51:29.330 To the point that, like I've been on the valley floor of Canyon Deha in Navajo 00:51:29.330 --> 00:51:32.750 country where it's like a traditional life from about a hundred years ago. 00:51:33.110 --> 00:51:38.420 But, and people living down there to some degree choose that, but by, that's 00:51:38.420 --> 00:51:39.770 by no means, you know, everywhere. 00:51:41.030 --> 00:51:45.350 Why do you, and, and then I remember when we met at the Quis 00:51:45.350 --> 00:51:48.590 Film Festival in Montana last year. 00:51:49.160 --> 00:51:56.000 And I remember there was a movie about the Blackfoot Nation and their relationship 00:51:56.030 --> 00:51:57.650 with horses and the land and so on. 00:51:57.950 --> 00:52:03.110 But as an outsider, I have to say it looked like just other normal 00:52:03.110 --> 00:52:09.260 American sort of semi ranch type people living in trailers, dressing like 00:52:10.130 --> 00:52:12.890 white people driving the same truck. 00:52:12.950 --> 00:52:16.250 You basically adopting the same culture the same. 00:52:16.640 --> 00:52:20.570 And there was a lot of talk about the culture in that movie, and then you saw 00:52:20.570 --> 00:52:24.860 like little snippets of it, but mostly what you actually observed as an outsider. 00:52:24.860 --> 00:52:27.740 It's like, no, look dude, it looks exactly the same as anywhere 00:52:27.740 --> 00:52:29.900 else in White Western America. 00:52:30.170 --> 00:52:31.460 What's the difference? 00:52:31.970 --> 00:52:32.060 Jeff Tomhave: Mm-hmm. 00:52:32.300 --> 00:52:33.080 Rupert Isaacson: Naive question. 00:52:33.170 --> 00:52:40.400 So my question is in a, in a state of being where one is fighting 00:52:40.400 --> 00:52:42.350 for advocacy, self-advocacy, 00:52:44.930 --> 00:52:49.730 why the wholesaler adoption of the colonial culture? 00:52:52.070 --> 00:52:57.260 Jeff Tomhave: Because the traditional culture has been taken away. 00:52:57.260 --> 00:53:01.700 And so a lot of people don't necessarily know it's not their experience. 00:53:01.760 --> 00:53:04.100 They don't know what their traditional culture is. 00:53:04.640 --> 00:53:04.760 Okay. 00:53:04.760 --> 00:53:07.550 And they're, they're like anyone else. 00:53:07.550 --> 00:53:11.270 They're searching, they're, they're looking at things, you know? 00:53:11.270 --> 00:53:14.210 And in order for culture to survive, it has to adapt. 00:53:14.330 --> 00:53:14.990 And so, 00:53:15.320 --> 00:53:15.530 Rupert Isaacson: yeah. 00:53:15.585 --> 00:53:18.345 Jeff Tomhave: I am gonna tell you a story and hopefully this'll, 00:53:18.345 --> 00:53:19.815 this'll illustrate what I mean. 00:53:20.685 --> 00:53:24.915 So, you know, Brandy, she's chota one of the five civilized tribes, and they're 00:53:24.915 --> 00:53:27.375 called civilized tribes because they were 00:53:27.375 --> 00:53:28.005 Rupert Isaacson: Brandy, by the way. 00:53:28.005 --> 00:53:32.325 Is, is, is, is Jeff's wife who runs a Native American Humane Society. 00:53:32.325 --> 00:53:32.415 Yes. 00:53:32.595 --> 00:53:36.825 Please go and check her interview out on Equine Assisted World. 00:53:37.095 --> 00:53:37.935 My other podcast. 00:53:37.935 --> 00:53:41.625 'cause it's, it's really a great interview, but just when he says 00:53:41.625 --> 00:53:42.585 Brandy, that's what he means. 00:53:42.615 --> 00:53:42.975 Okay. 00:53:43.125 --> 00:53:43.335 Sorry. 00:53:43.335 --> 00:53:43.515 Yes. 00:53:43.610 --> 00:53:43.900 Okay. 00:53:44.175 --> 00:53:48.615 Jeff Tomhave: So yes, so, so, should member of Choctaw Nation they're 00:53:48.615 --> 00:53:49.965 part of the five civilized tribes. 00:53:49.965 --> 00:53:54.225 They're called the civilized tribes because early on they adopted 00:53:54.285 --> 00:53:58.155 English, they adopted Christianity, they wrote their own constitutions. 00:53:58.425 --> 00:54:03.585 And like the rest of America, they had African slaves. 00:54:04.035 --> 00:54:07.515 And so they're called the five civilized tribes. 00:54:07.905 --> 00:54:08.355 Right. 00:54:08.565 --> 00:54:09.285 Speak English. 00:54:09.315 --> 00:54:09.735 Right. 00:54:10.635 --> 00:54:14.265 Became Christians really early in their history, 00:54:14.415 --> 00:54:15.735 Rupert Isaacson: settled in towns. 00:54:16.185 --> 00:54:16.425 Jeff Tomhave: Yes. 00:54:16.425 --> 00:54:18.015 Settled in towns, had newspapers. 00:54:18.015 --> 00:54:18.195 It looked 00:54:18.195 --> 00:54:19.305 Rupert Isaacson: like colonial towns. 00:54:19.310 --> 00:54:19.570 Jeff Tomhave: Yeah. 00:54:19.725 --> 00:54:24.225 Had constitutions, had to, had sheriffs and, and all that stuff. 00:54:24.225 --> 00:54:24.615 Right. 00:54:25.425 --> 00:54:30.645 And a couple of years ago we were driving through Oklahoma and 00:54:30.645 --> 00:54:34.545 we went to Durant, which is the capital of the Choctaw Nation. 00:54:35.115 --> 00:54:38.055 They had just opened their cultural center. 00:54:38.055 --> 00:54:40.965 It actually had opened just as COVID hit. 00:54:41.055 --> 00:54:43.935 So when they opened, they actually didn't open. 00:54:44.115 --> 00:54:47.295 And so we were there, you know, a few years afterwards when, you know it was 00:54:47.295 --> 00:54:50.745 safe to come out again and they were actually having their big opening. 00:54:50.985 --> 00:54:52.815 And so we were there. 00:54:53.085 --> 00:54:58.665 And when we got there, there was a Navajo woman who was the, the, the person, 00:54:58.665 --> 00:55:00.405 the hostess who, who introduced us. 00:55:00.405 --> 00:55:01.965 'cause she married a Choctaw guy. 00:55:02.325 --> 00:55:05.175 And she said, oh, here's, here's our programming here. 00:55:05.205 --> 00:55:07.725 Here's what you, you know, here's what you might wanna do today. 00:55:08.055 --> 00:55:10.595 And one of 'em was Choctaw language classes. 00:55:10.895 --> 00:55:13.505 And so, you know, brand new perked up immediately. 00:55:13.865 --> 00:55:19.025 And we went into 'em and they were singing hymns. 00:55:19.625 --> 00:55:27.905 And it finally dawned on me they became Christians so that they could hide 00:55:27.905 --> 00:55:30.275 their culture right out in the open. 00:55:31.085 --> 00:55:33.485 They were singing hymns in Choctaw. 00:55:34.355 --> 00:55:36.485 And it dawned on me right then and there. 00:55:36.755 --> 00:55:39.665 Ah, okay, now I get it. 00:55:40.685 --> 00:55:44.925 So, the Choctaw Nation has probably 00:55:47.655 --> 00:55:52.975 per capita some of the, the, the, the highest fluent speakers of anywhere. 00:55:53.125 --> 00:55:57.055 They are the, I believe they're the, the second largest tribe. 00:55:58.285 --> 00:56:03.985 Navajos being the first, and I know Navajos has a pretty big fluent 00:56:03.985 --> 00:56:07.835 speaker numbers, but I believe Chota is just right behind them. 00:56:08.255 --> 00:56:15.245 And it's not that they, they don't like say, oh, English is bad. 00:56:15.425 --> 00:56:15.635 No. 00:56:15.635 --> 00:56:22.805 It's that they've been able to keep their culture because they, they adapted this 00:56:22.835 --> 00:56:25.835 persona of being just like white people. 00:56:26.105 --> 00:56:30.365 And so they were able to shield it for themselves. 00:56:31.505 --> 00:56:35.935 And I think that that's, that's that is more prevalent than not. 00:56:36.535 --> 00:56:39.115 Now you said, you know, you, you, you've been to enclaves 00:56:39.115 --> 00:56:41.365 where there's thriving cultures. 00:56:42.025 --> 00:56:46.375 I've been to places where there are what are called unacknowledged 00:56:46.375 --> 00:56:50.155 tribes you know, federally recognized tribes, meaning, you know, you have a 00:56:50.155 --> 00:56:51.775 relationship with the federal government. 00:56:52.075 --> 00:56:56.155 You know, it's, it's based on a treaty or a statute or something, but there's 00:56:56.155 --> 00:57:02.515 some federal reason why the United States government deals with you as a 00:57:02.545 --> 00:57:04.885 tribe, as a separate political entity. 00:57:04.885 --> 00:57:06.805 And that's, that's called federal recognition. 00:57:07.315 --> 00:57:11.335 There are what are called unacknowledged tribes in that 00:57:12.265 --> 00:57:14.665 they never had that interaction. 00:57:15.895 --> 00:57:19.795 So they're just these small rural communities off in the 00:57:19.795 --> 00:57:24.025 mountains or wherever, you know, the desert floor, wherever. 00:57:24.595 --> 00:57:27.265 And they haven't ever had that experience. 00:57:27.325 --> 00:57:29.065 So they're completely intact. 00:57:29.305 --> 00:57:31.285 They've got their language, they've got their culture, 00:57:31.285 --> 00:57:33.205 they've got their, their religion. 00:57:33.535 --> 00:57:37.735 And even though they speak English and they go to schools and all that, 00:57:37.885 --> 00:57:41.275 they still have all of that, because that was never taken from them. 00:57:41.785 --> 00:57:43.345 And I've been there, I've seen it. 00:57:43.490 --> 00:57:44.995 It, it, it exists. 00:57:45.105 --> 00:57:48.255 And, and so I think there's, there's, 00:57:50.355 --> 00:57:54.195 there's the extreme way of, oh, we're gonna, we're gonna adapt everything 00:57:54.195 --> 00:58:00.605 that, that white American culture has, and we're gonna take it on as our own 00:58:01.085 --> 00:58:03.785 and hide our own truth inside that. 00:58:04.055 --> 00:58:09.095 Or, Hey, you never bothered to deal with us, therefore you 00:58:09.095 --> 00:58:10.475 never took anything from us. 00:58:10.685 --> 00:58:15.125 And I think most tribal people, they're definitely somewhere in 00:58:15.125 --> 00:58:21.995 between either end of that which is why, which is why, you know, the film 00:58:21.995 --> 00:58:23.405 on the Blackfeet reservation Yeah. 00:58:23.405 --> 00:58:26.855 They look like ranching people because they've always been ranching people. 00:58:27.335 --> 00:58:28.415 Even before horses. 00:58:28.415 --> 00:58:32.675 They were, they were doing animal husbandry with the wildlife, you know? 00:58:32.705 --> 00:58:32.825 Mm-hmm. 00:58:33.425 --> 00:58:37.435 This past summer we are in, we were in North Dakota, we went to 00:58:37.435 --> 00:58:40.585 a powwow, and we were both amazed. 00:58:40.615 --> 00:58:47.815 There's this brand new powwow dance that it's women and they're rodeo women, 00:58:48.145 --> 00:58:50.515 and they dance with, with the lariats. 00:58:50.575 --> 00:58:54.295 And the whole thing is to keep the lariat going up while they're dancing. 00:58:54.415 --> 00:58:55.495 Rupert Isaacson: That's like Gangnam style. 00:58:55.555 --> 00:58:55.825 Yeah. 00:58:56.130 --> 00:58:56.910 Jeff Tomhave: Yes, exactly. 00:58:57.115 --> 00:58:58.435 And it's, it's amazing. 00:58:58.495 --> 00:59:02.815 It's incredible because Indian people do rodeo a lot. 00:59:02.815 --> 00:59:04.855 I mean, you'd think, oh, that's a cowboy thing. 00:59:05.815 --> 00:59:08.945 And you know, Indian people have been doing that you know, basically forever. 00:59:11.165 --> 00:59:13.775 Rupert Isaacson: Well, at least since the colonial experience. 00:59:13.885 --> 00:59:17.460 I, I, I dunno if Indians were doing rodeos before, 00:59:17.670 --> 00:59:18.420 Jeff Tomhave: well, not rodeos, 00:59:18.420 --> 00:59:20.130 Rupert Isaacson: rodeo itself is a Spanish word, right. 00:59:20.130 --> 00:59:20.550 I mean it 00:59:20.970 --> 00:59:21.120 Jeff Tomhave: Yeah. 00:59:21.120 --> 00:59:22.470 But, but animal husbandry 00:59:22.680 --> 00:59:23.010 Rupert Isaacson: works. 00:59:23.010 --> 00:59:23.460 Yeah, sure. 00:59:24.030 --> 00:59:24.690 Absolutely. 00:59:24.900 --> 00:59:28.560 I guess, I guess, you know, I'm, I'm only asking these questions as 00:59:28.560 --> 00:59:31.350 devil's advocate because I think it, it's important for people to try 00:59:31.350 --> 00:59:36.270 and who are not familiar to kind of understand where Native America's at. 00:59:36.750 --> 00:59:40.200 And it's confusing because you can, you can meet, as you say, you 00:59:40.200 --> 00:59:43.320 can meet a tribal person and they come across to a large extent, 00:59:43.320 --> 00:59:44.610 just like any other American. 00:59:44.760 --> 00:59:47.430 And then you're like, well, then where's the lack? 00:59:47.430 --> 00:59:48.840 Why, why are you guys so poor? 00:59:48.840 --> 00:59:49.470 You don't look poor. 00:59:49.470 --> 00:59:50.550 You're wearing a nice thing. 00:59:50.550 --> 00:59:51.450 You're driving a nice car. 00:59:51.690 --> 00:59:54.120 There you are, you're living in Washington, dc you've got a, you know, 00:59:54.120 --> 00:59:55.170 you're a lawyer, you've got a job. 00:59:55.170 --> 00:59:55.320 Yeah. 00:59:55.620 --> 00:59:56.250 Where's the problem? 00:59:56.520 --> 01:00:00.810 And just as people from outside of America. 01:00:01.275 --> 01:00:05.235 Don't see white American poverty, which for sure exists. 01:00:05.235 --> 01:00:10.095 I've lived in rural Texas and you know, the rural south and or, you know, 01:00:10.545 --> 01:00:15.285 people might on the other hand have a perception and say, black America and 01:00:15.285 --> 01:00:17.175 think, well, black America's all ghetto. 01:00:17.625 --> 01:00:21.795 And it's like, well, some of it is, but no, a lot of it isn't actually. 01:00:21.865 --> 01:00:24.290 There's a lot of people who do very well and you know, blah, blah, 01:00:24.290 --> 01:00:26.960 blah, and all points in between. 01:00:27.320 --> 01:00:33.140 But I think because the Native American experience is so poignant, obviously 01:00:33.140 --> 01:00:37.280 the Black American experiences as well, but the Native American experience of 01:00:38.450 --> 01:00:44.600 dispossession, first of land, then of culture, as you said, you know, and 01:00:44.600 --> 01:00:49.100 then after the conquests even after the reservations then being put into these 01:00:49.100 --> 01:00:52.610 schools where you weren't allowed to speak your language and that, you know, 01:00:52.670 --> 01:00:56.720 and when you were saying, oh, well people are searching for their culture, someone 01:00:56.720 --> 01:00:57.860 listening to this might say, well, why? 01:00:57.860 --> 01:01:00.320 I mean, it, it seems that the culture's everywhere from what you guys are saying. 01:01:00.320 --> 01:01:02.960 There's 500 and something tribes, and there's this and there's that. 01:01:03.260 --> 01:01:06.650 But as you begin to recount the story, you go, oh, I see. 01:01:06.650 --> 01:01:12.620 Unless you were one of those, if you like uncontacted type tribes or happen to be, 01:01:12.620 --> 01:01:17.120 you know, cocooned by the geographical isolation of the middle of the. 01:01:18.260 --> 01:01:21.080 A Navajo reservation, which is the size of Ireland, you know, or 01:01:21.080 --> 01:01:22.580 something like that, then yeah, yeah. 01:01:22.580 --> 01:01:26.450 You know, you, you might well have actually found yourself in a 01:01:26.450 --> 01:01:30.980 cultural no man's land as a sort of alien within your own place. 01:01:31.430 --> 01:01:36.760 And I could see that leading to a kind of despair that, of course you see when 01:01:36.760 --> 01:01:41.650 you meet Native American homeless people in cities and all the substance abuse 01:01:41.650 --> 01:01:44.980 and all the, you know, the stuff that you see and then inherited trauma, we 01:01:44.980 --> 01:01:49.990 now know much more about epigenetics, you know, when one goes up into places 01:01:49.990 --> 01:01:55.360 like the Pine Ridge Reservation or the Rosebud Reservation than the Lakota 01:01:55.360 --> 01:01:59.980 tribes up there where you think, well, why would they be so f you know, effed up? 01:02:00.220 --> 01:02:03.700 Because they're the ones who came out with their, you know, spirit 01:02:03.700 --> 01:02:04.990 intact, their military spirit. 01:02:04.990 --> 01:02:08.680 They, you know, they beat Custer, they won all these battles, red Cloud 01:02:08.680 --> 01:02:12.790 and, you know, sitting Bull and all these people, and they, they're, you 01:02:12.790 --> 01:02:16.690 know, national heroes even outside of a, you know, bazillion movies. 01:02:17.590 --> 01:02:23.650 Why then are these the poorest and most effed up places in America? 01:02:23.650 --> 01:02:28.090 Well, yeah, they, they won those battles, so therefore the, the 01:02:28.090 --> 01:02:31.090 government was going to go in and make sure they didn't win anymore. 01:02:31.390 --> 01:02:32.290 And yeah. 01:02:32.400 --> 01:02:37.760 Which, which is interesting because in Zulu land in South Africa where 01:02:37.760 --> 01:02:40.620 my grandfather came from the Zulus. 01:02:41.460 --> 01:02:46.530 Beat the British Army Fair and Square, huge battle battle of Tijuana. 01:02:46.990 --> 01:02:50.170 They wiped out two British regiments had to climb over their own 01:02:50.170 --> 01:02:51.580 dead to do it, but they did it. 01:02:52.120 --> 01:02:57.580 And because of that, weirdly came out of the colonial experience with 01:02:58.360 --> 01:03:04.090 a real sense of pride and therefore, weirdly less animosity towards whites. 01:03:04.600 --> 01:03:08.260 But they didn't have the overwhelming immigration. 01:03:08.620 --> 01:03:12.460 They were still, of course, massively abused and under apartheid and so on, 01:03:12.790 --> 01:03:17.920 but it, it wasn't, I guess they just weren't so outnumbered and overwhelmed. 01:03:18.610 --> 01:03:22.060 So when you talk about, 01:03:24.130 --> 01:03:29.170 when one encounters people's attitudes towards Native America, there's 01:03:29.170 --> 01:03:34.840 often a, an assumption, particularly within white America, that the Amer, 01:03:34.870 --> 01:03:38.800 that the Native Americans actually do have money and they're just kind 01:03:38.800 --> 01:03:40.480 of lazy and have no work ethic. 01:03:40.570 --> 01:03:43.630 And you hear this a lot, like you hear, well, you know, they don't 01:03:43.630 --> 01:03:46.390 have to pay taxes, and they've got all this and they've got all that, 01:03:46.390 --> 01:03:50.680 and they have these casinos, and the casinos make, you know, billions. 01:03:50.830 --> 01:03:52.420 So where's all that money going, eh? 01:03:52.780 --> 01:03:57.610 And why should we, American taxpayers have to pay for these guys who don't 01:03:57.610 --> 01:04:01.930 pay taxes, who have all this money coming from, say perhaps oil and gas 01:04:01.930 --> 01:04:05.440 or perhaps from, casinos, et cetera. 01:04:06.850 --> 01:04:10.780 And I think a lot of those people are asking those questions in good faith 01:04:10.780 --> 01:04:16.000 because they themselves don't know, again, because of this invisibility issue. 01:04:16.510 --> 01:04:17.710 So can you answer that? 01:04:18.250 --> 01:04:22.510 Why are American reservations in Indian reservations so poor 01:04:22.930 --> 01:04:28.210 when huge natural resources, when gambling, et cetera, et cetera? 01:04:28.450 --> 01:04:29.020 Why? 01:04:29.050 --> 01:04:30.340 What, what's, what's the disconnect? 01:04:30.340 --> 01:04:30.910 What's going on? 01:04:30.910 --> 01:04:31.420 What's happening? 01:04:33.130 --> 01:04:35.950 Jeff Tomhave: Well, the short answer is that money doesn't 01:04:35.950 --> 01:04:38.050 stay on the reservations. 01:04:38.200 --> 01:04:41.950 Obviously with the resource extractions, it's the companies that are doing it, 01:04:42.190 --> 01:04:42.550 Rupert Isaacson: right? 01:04:42.790 --> 01:04:44.800 Jeff Tomhave: The tribe's getting a small royalty. 01:04:44.800 --> 01:04:48.040 I mean, there's been, you know, it's documented. 01:04:48.040 --> 01:04:54.390 There's court cases, you know, been going on for decades, if not, you know, a 01:04:54.390 --> 01:05:01.050 century now of how mismanaged the federal government is with with tribal resources. 01:05:01.160 --> 01:05:04.610 And that they don't even get market rates for them. 01:05:04.610 --> 01:05:06.050 They get, you know, less than that. 01:05:06.050 --> 01:05:09.500 And so, so that's sort of like the easy one. 01:05:09.920 --> 01:05:11.750 The other one is with gaming. 01:05:11.780 --> 01:05:17.330 You know, most people assume that it's the tribe that is, you know, running this 01:05:17.330 --> 01:05:18.950 and therefore getting all the profits. 01:05:19.400 --> 01:05:23.480 Well, most of these casinos, they're financed by outsiders. 01:05:23.540 --> 01:05:24.350 You know, some of them. 01:05:25.280 --> 01:05:28.960 The it's one of the tribes in Connecticut. 01:05:28.960 --> 01:05:34.680 I don't remember if it's the PWAs or, or, or the Ashing Tucket, but 01:05:34.680 --> 01:05:38.250 I believe the Sultan of Bruna is the one who put up money for that. 01:05:38.700 --> 01:05:43.830 And of course, you know, it's a long term, you know, like 30 year loan, and so 01:05:44.100 --> 01:05:52.680 the profits go to pay back the debt, you know, and part of the federal law that 01:05:52.710 --> 01:05:59.890 regulates gaming on Indian reservations it was actually crafted by the State 01:05:59.890 --> 01:06:05.890 Governor's Association so that they would get the lion's share of any profit. 01:06:06.520 --> 01:06:14.590 So that is why, if you are aware of this there are a handful of really, 01:06:14.590 --> 01:06:19.730 really profitable tribal gaming enterprises across the country. 01:06:20.210 --> 01:06:24.950 And they give money to, you know, the local volunteer fire 01:06:24.950 --> 01:06:28.070 department to build, you know, new stations, get new fire trucks. 01:06:28.070 --> 01:06:34.400 They, they put up the new little league ball fields, you know, new auditoriums 01:06:34.400 --> 01:06:35.780 for the local high school, all that stuff. 01:06:36.020 --> 01:06:40.400 That's because that's part of the federal law that. 01:06:40.790 --> 01:06:46.280 Regulates Indian gaming is a portion of any profits goes to 01:06:46.580 --> 01:06:48.860 the local adjacent community. 01:06:49.460 --> 01:06:50.840 And then there, and then, yes. 01:06:50.840 --> 01:06:58.520 And then eventually some of it does come down to the tribe providing for itself. 01:06:58.910 --> 01:07:04.260 And there are some there are some tribes where they're making 01:07:04.260 --> 01:07:08.670 obscene amounts of money and their individual members are getting tens 01:07:08.670 --> 01:07:10.110 of thousands of dollars a month. 01:07:10.140 --> 01:07:14.700 And there, there is that, that, oh, well they don't work. 01:07:14.700 --> 01:07:15.300 They're lazy. 01:07:15.300 --> 01:07:16.950 Well, they don't have to work. 01:07:17.160 --> 01:07:20.820 I mean, if I was getting $30,000 a month, I wouldn't work. 01:07:23.670 --> 01:07:23.940 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:07:23.970 --> 01:07:24.660 Jeff Tomhave: But I'm not, 01:07:24.660 --> 01:07:27.090 Rupert Isaacson: but, but what, why are some, why are some gaming 01:07:27.090 --> 01:07:32.130 enterprises then able to pay tribal members 30,000 a month and others not 01:07:33.540 --> 01:07:38.445 Jeff Tomhave: because they are a bus ride from New York, or they're in, 01:07:38.445 --> 01:07:41.670 they're in suburban southern California. 01:07:42.360 --> 01:07:49.890 They're where people are who wanna gamble and most Indian tribes are not. 01:07:50.580 --> 01:07:59.790 And so, you know, they're, they're most Indian tribal casinos are on some, you 01:07:59.790 --> 01:08:02.280 know, not even a, a interstate highway. 01:08:02.280 --> 01:08:03.900 They're on some US highway. 01:08:04.410 --> 01:08:08.670 Out in the middle of, you know, ranch land where Yeah. 01:08:08.670 --> 01:08:11.610 If you're lucky, there's, you know, there's 50 people 01:08:11.610 --> 01:08:12.810 there that night, you know? 01:08:13.290 --> 01:08:14.130 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:08:14.220 --> 01:08:15.750 Jeff Tomhave: So they're not, they're not where people are. 01:08:15.840 --> 01:08:18.390 That's, and that's why some of them aren't very successful 01:08:18.810 --> 01:08:20.700 Rupert Isaacson: if there, if there are a handful though, 01:08:20.700 --> 01:08:22.200 that are really successful. 01:08:22.380 --> 01:08:23.070 Jeff Tomhave: Yes, there are. 01:08:23.280 --> 01:08:28.230 Rupert Isaacson: Are you able, in your advocacy work, let's say you want to 01:08:28.320 --> 01:08:34.230 pave that road in Utah, or you want to build that new hospital for the cancer 01:08:34.230 --> 01:08:38.670 center, can you go to those other tribes? 01:08:38.910 --> 01:08:43.510 Is there, is there that kind of solidarity in Native America, or is there not, 01:08:43.840 --> 01:08:48.340 would, would a tribe, would the PWAs say, that's not our, that's not our concern. 01:08:48.520 --> 01:08:49.030 Would they say? 01:08:49.030 --> 01:08:50.440 No, that's definitely our concern 01:08:51.520 --> 01:08:51.910 Jeff Tomhave: there. 01:08:51.915 --> 01:08:53.830 It, it, it's a case by case basis. 01:08:53.860 --> 01:08:53.980 Mm-hmm. 01:08:54.160 --> 01:08:59.600 Most of them have philanthropic foundations, but they are, like any 01:08:59.600 --> 01:09:03.170 philanthropic foundation, they're, they're basically concentrating on, 01:09:03.440 --> 01:09:04.970 you know, their geographic area. 01:09:06.830 --> 01:09:09.590 So, you know, so you couldn't go to somebody in Connecticut for a project 01:09:09.590 --> 01:09:14.990 in, say, Arizona, you know, you could go to the Arizona tribes and say, 01:09:14.990 --> 01:09:17.480 Hey, can you do this thing in Arizona? 01:09:17.840 --> 01:09:21.230 And you know, if it, if it aligns with what their, you 01:09:21.230 --> 01:09:23.870 know, what their principles are, then sure, you could ask them. 01:09:24.290 --> 01:09:27.080 But it's, it's like anything else, you, you need to have that relationship 01:09:27.140 --> 01:09:28.790 already established with them. 01:09:29.000 --> 01:09:29.090 Mm-hmm. 01:09:29.090 --> 01:09:29.900 That takes the time. 01:09:29.990 --> 01:09:35.840 It takes time to cultivate and but yeah, so to answer your question, no, there 01:09:35.840 --> 01:09:38.960 isn't that general overall solidarity. 01:09:39.150 --> 01:09:46.850 But there, but you can find connection points if there philanthropic 01:09:46.910 --> 01:09:50.690 guidelines align with your, with, with what you're asking for. 01:09:51.710 --> 01:09:53.870 Rupert Isaacson: So the question again, as an outsider is why 01:09:53.870 --> 01:09:55.280 isn't there that solidarity? 01:09:55.380 --> 01:09:59.940 So if, if all Native Americans have had this same basic experience of 01:10:00.450 --> 01:10:05.250 genocide, colonialization, you know, just having a really, really awful time 01:10:05.940 --> 01:10:12.270 at the hands of European colonials, that's a common experience that 01:10:12.630 --> 01:10:15.090 presumably binds people together. 01:10:15.760 --> 01:10:19.420 And as you say, being thrown into schools where there's different tribes and and 01:10:19.420 --> 01:10:22.715 so on, and so, and so people are marrying across the tribes and, and so on. 01:10:22.900 --> 01:10:26.050 So why, what prevents that solidarity? 01:10:28.210 --> 01:10:31.200 Jeff Tomhave: Well, I think it's it's a it's a legacy of, you know, the whole 01:10:31.200 --> 01:10:33.890 divide and conquer, you know, practice. 01:10:34.280 --> 01:10:38.330 You know, the federal government, it deals with tribes across the 01:10:38.330 --> 01:10:40.790 country based upon which, which. 01:10:41.210 --> 01:10:43.910 Federally administered region that they are in. 01:10:44.210 --> 01:10:49.790 And so you'll have those tribes all get together and, you know, meet and discuss 01:10:50.180 --> 01:10:53.220 about their things the others, their own. 01:10:53.580 --> 01:10:56.295 And so there's never really a, a, 01:10:58.560 --> 01:11:03.720 a time or a place for tribes ever just to get together on their own. 01:11:04.320 --> 01:11:10.050 There are a few national tribal organizations but they're actually funded 01:11:10.050 --> 01:11:14.020 primarily by the federal governments that by the federal government 01:11:15.340 --> 01:11:22.510 agencies that these organizations are supposed to provide oversight to. 01:11:22.900 --> 01:11:27.700 But when, but when you're being funded by them, you don't really police them. 01:11:27.880 --> 01:11:30.400 And so that's really what happens. 01:11:30.430 --> 01:11:35.260 So I think there really hasn't, there, there really isn't 01:11:35.260 --> 01:11:38.120 that that avenue to do that. 01:11:38.870 --> 01:11:42.800 And hopefully that, that's, that's, that's kind of what I'm 01:11:43.100 --> 01:11:44.810 been trying to do is, is get. 01:11:45.770 --> 01:11:49.580 Elected tribal people or just tribal people in general to start thinking, 01:11:49.580 --> 01:11:53.120 Hey, just because the federal government told us we have to do it this way 01:11:53.330 --> 01:11:55.040 doesn't mean we have to do it this way. 01:11:55.130 --> 01:11:55.520 Rupert Isaacson: Right? 01:11:55.520 --> 01:11:58.280 I mean, there must have been people who had this vision. 01:11:58.430 --> 01:12:00.890 I mean, you would think, where is the Native American Martin 01:12:00.890 --> 01:12:02.600 Luther King that there has there? 01:12:02.600 --> 01:12:04.880 No, never been anyone who said, I have a dream. 01:12:05.030 --> 01:12:05.390 You know? 01:12:05.450 --> 01:12:09.040 And and also effectively, you know, listen, lads, these guys 01:12:09.040 --> 01:12:13.690 are always gonna do us up the backside unless we get together. 01:12:13.810 --> 01:12:18.880 And I can see how the legacy, it's not just divide and conquer, 01:12:18.880 --> 01:12:22.330 it was also divided before white people showed up, right? 01:12:22.330 --> 01:12:25.720 People have been at war with each other, nations have been at war with each other 01:12:26.140 --> 01:12:30.730 in Native America before, long before any, any anyone from Europe ever showed up. 01:12:30.730 --> 01:12:33.340 And I could see, of course that doesn't go away. 01:12:33.710 --> 01:12:35.780 The old rivalries exist in Europe. 01:12:35.780 --> 01:12:37.820 Why wouldn't they exist everywhere else in the world? 01:12:37.850 --> 01:12:43.385 But nonetheless, when you are getting, when you're really 01:12:43.485 --> 01:12:47.750 get, you are all getting it from the, the man in the same way. 01:12:47.750 --> 01:12:52.550 You would think at a certain point people would go all in the 500 year, 600 year 01:12:52.550 --> 01:12:56.600 history, you know, someone would go, alright, look, it's pretty clear that 01:12:56.930 --> 01:13:01.940 unless we present some sort of united front here, nothing's gonna change. 01:13:02.480 --> 01:13:05.720 Do you think that can happen? 01:13:05.720 --> 01:13:07.220 Will happen, will ever happen? 01:13:09.230 --> 01:13:09.650 And if so, 01:13:09.700 --> 01:13:13.565 Jeff Tomhave: I am, I'm, I'm optimistic that it can happen. 01:13:14.585 --> 01:13:20.735 I'm dubious that it will happen because people are people, people, you know, have 01:13:20.735 --> 01:13:26.825 their old animosities and Yeah, there is, there's definitely tribal animosities, 01:13:26.825 --> 01:13:31.575 which will prevent that from happening across certain, you know, certain divides. 01:13:31.885 --> 01:13:32.995 And that goes way back. 01:13:32.995 --> 01:13:35.665 That's all pre-contact. 01:13:35.965 --> 01:13:36.205 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:13:36.445 --> 01:13:40.405 Jeff Tomhave: Animosities and warfare, and those probably will never be resolved. 01:13:41.155 --> 01:13:44.695 But people are, people and, and people, you know, have their 01:13:44.695 --> 01:13:48.535 own agendas and you are right. 01:13:48.565 --> 01:13:52.115 There is no Native American Martin Luther King. 01:13:52.715 --> 01:13:56.315 There hasn't been for hundreds of years. 01:13:56.415 --> 01:14:00.915 You know, and the last ones were, you know, military leaders who tried to, 01:14:01.035 --> 01:14:02.955 you know, create these tribal alliances. 01:14:02.955 --> 01:14:07.305 And some cases did, and some cases were not successful. 01:14:07.695 --> 01:14:12.525 But there hasn't been any in contemporary times. 01:14:12.675 --> 01:14:21.375 And it's a, it's a shame, but I also think that because the native 01:14:21.375 --> 01:14:24.180 population is so small mm-hmm. 01:14:24.260 --> 01:14:24.300 That. 01:14:25.425 --> 01:14:25.905 That 01:14:28.125 --> 01:14:31.275 the, you know, most tribes are just a collection of, you know, 01:14:31.275 --> 01:14:36.615 a handful of families and, you know, this family is in power once 01:14:36.615 --> 01:14:38.715 they're in the elected positions. 01:14:39.345 --> 01:14:42.615 And then that family gets power once they get an election. 01:14:42.615 --> 01:14:47.565 And so there's, there's those familial intertribal squabbles that 01:14:47.565 --> 01:14:49.035 will prevent that from happening. 01:14:49.425 --> 01:14:54.015 But I do think that because the population is so small that, that 01:14:56.085 --> 01:14:58.575 the vision for unity 01:15:01.845 --> 01:15:05.415 that conversation almost never happens because 01:15:07.605 --> 01:15:12.465 someone will say, oh, well, you know, we can't do this because of X, Y, or Z. 01:15:13.005 --> 01:15:15.765 And the other person will say, oh, and I wouldn't wanna do it with 01:15:15.765 --> 01:15:18.045 you because of this there or that. 01:15:19.425 --> 01:15:23.205 So, I think if the population was larger, that would be an easier 01:15:23.205 --> 01:15:27.995 conversation because those voices would just sort of be background noise. 01:15:28.535 --> 01:15:29.675 But right now they're prominent. 01:15:31.355 --> 01:15:31.775 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:15:31.775 --> 01:15:35.875 It's, it's interesting to me you would have thought that the same 01:15:37.225 --> 01:15:44.095 issue would have pervaded in, in black America, because again, to the 01:15:44.095 --> 01:15:45.715 outsiders, oh, black America's a thing. 01:15:45.715 --> 01:15:46.735 But of course, black America's. 01:15:47.320 --> 01:15:51.310 Many, many, many cultures not all of whom were on good terms with each 01:15:51.310 --> 01:16:00.820 other, and yet they did manage to forge a movement that fundamentally 01:16:00.820 --> 01:16:05.585 shifted the political landscape. 01:16:06.880 --> 01:16:07.960 I'm optimistic. 01:16:07.960 --> 01:16:10.030 You know, I think, I think people can change. 01:16:10.030 --> 01:16:14.530 Like if you, it's really interesting if you look at say Scandinavia, right? 01:16:14.920 --> 01:16:19.570 We all look at Scandinavia as like, you know, Canada's the 01:16:19.570 --> 01:16:20.950 Scandinavia of North America. 01:16:20.950 --> 01:16:24.370 North America is the Canada, you know, it's, you know, yeah. 01:16:24.440 --> 01:16:28.095 They're, they're the Canada of Europe and, you know, enlightened liberal 01:16:28.095 --> 01:16:33.225 people who very have great, you know, policies of social this and social 01:16:33.225 --> 01:16:37.395 that, and look after their environment and was not always, so there was, there 01:16:37.395 --> 01:16:42.225 were these people called Vikings who committed all sorts of atrocities. 01:16:42.595 --> 01:16:48.355 And you could even argue that the Northern European colonial experience was just 01:16:48.355 --> 01:16:50.635 a continuation of the Viking tradition. 01:16:51.025 --> 01:16:55.245 Yet the, somewhere along the line. 01:16:56.940 --> 01:17:02.400 They stopped doing that and became transformed into a very different society, 01:17:02.820 --> 01:17:06.060 Mongolia, when I was in Mongolia, this was really interesting, you know, the, 01:17:06.270 --> 01:17:12.240 the most brutal and violent culture on the planet, you know, exploding 01:17:12.240 --> 01:17:15.690 out of Mongolian, like we killed everybody, you know, kill everybody 01:17:15.690 --> 01:17:19.590 from the Pacific to the Mediterranean, you know, once every 50 years. 01:17:19.590 --> 01:17:21.720 And then, whoa, that was a bit tiring, wasn't it, lads? 01:17:21.840 --> 01:17:22.080 You know? 01:17:22.080 --> 01:17:24.930 And so then they end up, you know, going back to the heartland and sort of 01:17:24.930 --> 01:17:26.670 recovering for a, a generation or so. 01:17:26.670 --> 01:17:28.350 Then they get everybody again. 01:17:28.350 --> 01:17:31.980 And you know, you got Genghis Kahan and Khan and Tamerlan and all these people, 01:17:31.980 --> 01:17:37.710 you know, and then somewhere in the 17th century you get these Tibetan monks 01:17:37.710 --> 01:17:42.810 wandering over the Altai plateau and talking about this thing called Buddhism. 01:17:43.290 --> 01:17:46.770 And like in one generation, the Mongolians go, yeah, you know, 01:17:46.770 --> 01:17:47.940 that's a good idea actually. 01:17:48.390 --> 01:17:49.050 Yeah, yeah. 01:17:49.050 --> 01:17:50.850 Maybe we, yeah, maybe we should do that. 01:17:51.280 --> 01:17:54.130 Or the Berlin War coming down or the end of apartheid or whatever. 01:17:54.340 --> 01:17:56.230 So I, I just wonder, 01:17:58.360 --> 01:18:05.050 do you think that maturation process is round the corner 01:18:05.050 --> 01:18:07.270 somehow for Native America? 01:18:07.270 --> 01:18:11.890 Because it seems that as long as I've been involved in North America 01:18:11.920 --> 01:18:17.830 that those, the, the problems despite growing prosperity generally have 01:18:17.830 --> 01:18:20.350 remained really acute in Native America. 01:18:21.050 --> 01:18:22.880 The, the social problems, the. 01:18:23.270 --> 01:18:27.470 The poverty, the, as you said, all the things that you outlined, despite 01:18:27.470 --> 01:18:30.860 as, yes, as you say, some, some people of course, do very well, but 01:18:31.040 --> 01:18:32.210 we know that that's not the norm. 01:18:33.500 --> 01:18:40.190 Sooner or later there kind of has to be a collective pinching of the 01:18:40.190 --> 01:18:44.630 skin and kind of going, all right, listen, we, we, we gotta do it 01:18:44.630 --> 01:18:46.550 differently because we're still here. 01:18:46.610 --> 01:18:46.880 Right? 01:18:46.880 --> 01:18:49.580 I mean, that is an achievement, as you say, it's a very small 01:18:49.580 --> 01:18:53.780 population, but that is actually a testament to an achievement, because 01:18:53.780 --> 01:18:55.340 by rights you shouldn't exist. 01:18:55.760 --> 01:18:56.030 You know? 01:18:56.060 --> 01:18:59.930 I mean, if you think about the effort that went into annihilation 01:19:00.890 --> 01:19:06.170 of native community, you know, one just has to start reading the 01:19:06.170 --> 01:19:09.470 histories and it's, it's criminal. 01:19:09.470 --> 01:19:10.550 Jeff Tomhave: Mm-hmm. 01:19:10.556 --> 01:19:13.160 Rupert Isaacson: But it was also, it was final solution type criminal. 01:19:13.160 --> 01:19:16.640 It was very well thought out, mass death on an industrial scale. 01:19:16.970 --> 01:19:19.460 And just as Hitler couldn't kill all the Jews, though, he 01:19:19.460 --> 01:19:21.560 gave it good old college try. 01:19:22.160 --> 01:19:26.510 They couldn't obviously complete the genocides to the Native Americans, 01:19:26.510 --> 01:19:28.370 but they jolly well had a go. 01:19:28.670 --> 01:19:30.680 And, you know, I, I lived in Texas, you know. 01:19:31.160 --> 01:19:32.630 That's Comanche country, right? 01:19:32.630 --> 01:19:37.250 I lived in the middle of Comanche, not one Comanche, you know, within 01:19:37.250 --> 01:19:41.540 a hundred, 200, 300, 400, 500 miles. 01:19:41.750 --> 01:19:46.670 They, they got rid of them like really efficiently, but yet there's 01:19:46.670 --> 01:19:49.520 still some sitting up there in a Oklahoma where they shoved them. 01:19:49.940 --> 01:19:50.810 They're still there. 01:19:50.810 --> 01:19:52.040 You guys are still there. 01:19:52.040 --> 01:19:54.530 And there you've got people like you sitting in Washington, 01:19:54.530 --> 01:19:56.630 DC you know, advocates. 01:19:57.080 --> 01:19:59.300 You must have this dream somewhere in you. 01:20:00.590 --> 01:20:01.460 Jeff Tomhave: Oh, of course I do. 01:20:01.530 --> 01:20:06.960 Yeah, it's something that I've, I've wanted and thought about and contemplated 01:20:07.050 --> 01:20:10.960 and that's, and that's why when I started I said, you know, native professionals 01:20:10.960 --> 01:20:15.640 of my generation, because it is something that people do talk about. 01:20:16.030 --> 01:20:19.750 It's like, when are we gonna get over these, these petty squabbles 01:20:19.810 --> 01:20:23.740 and actually get into the game and, you know, do something about this? 01:20:24.130 --> 01:20:31.960 And so yeah, it, it is something that, that that I, I dream about. 01:20:32.290 --> 01:20:35.650 But I'm not sure how it's actually going to happen. 01:20:36.770 --> 01:20:45.830 Because as long as the federal government basically controls pretty much every 01:20:45.830 --> 01:20:52.910 aspect of tribal governments, and it does, that's not a conversation that's gonna 01:20:52.910 --> 01:20:55.460 happen at the tribal governmental level. 01:20:55.880 --> 01:20:56.930 It may happen elsewhere. 01:20:56.990 --> 01:21:01.190 And that's, that's where my optimism comes from, is it may happen 01:21:01.580 --> 01:21:07.130 at the community level, it may happen at the, the grandma level. 01:21:07.430 --> 01:21:08.030 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:21:08.270 --> 01:21:09.920 Jeff Tomhave: It's gotta happen somewhere. 01:21:10.340 --> 01:21:16.250 Because I think the, the, it's too easy to distract a tribal 01:21:16.250 --> 01:21:18.530 government by doing something else. 01:21:18.590 --> 01:21:22.190 It's like throwing a, throwing a ball at a dog, you know, the dog's gonna go 01:21:22.190 --> 01:21:27.770 chase it, you know, rather than stay where they are, stay at the attention 01:21:27.770 --> 01:21:29.540 and, and do what needs to be done. 01:21:29.960 --> 01:21:33.650 So I think that that conversation, as far as I know, it hasn't happened 01:21:33.650 --> 01:21:38.390 yet, but it could happen just not in the arena of, of tribal government. 01:21:38.395 --> 01:21:39.050 Rupert Isaacson: I, I agree with you. 01:21:39.050 --> 01:21:42.210 I think that I think that I mean, let's face it, Martin Luther King didn't 01:21:42.210 --> 01:21:44.550 happen at the federal government level. 01:21:45.100 --> 01:21:46.390 And we also know what happened to him. 01:21:47.050 --> 01:21:47.500 But 01:21:50.020 --> 01:21:52.510 how, let's dream a little bit, okay. 01:21:52.510 --> 01:21:54.130 Let's say it happens at the community level. 01:21:54.130 --> 01:21:55.690 Let's say it happens at the grandma level. 01:21:57.610 --> 01:22:02.140 What happens fantasy scenario, what happens and how does it play out? 01:22:02.410 --> 01:22:06.640 And what does America then look like 50 years after that happens? 01:22:11.080 --> 01:22:15.490 As you may know, if you've been following my work, we are also horsey folk here. 01:22:15.995 --> 01:22:20.485 And we have been training horses for many, many years in the manner of 01:22:20.535 --> 01:22:23.695 the old classical dressage masters. 01:22:24.125 --> 01:22:26.915 This is something which is often very confusing for people. 01:22:27.305 --> 01:22:32.305 We shine a light on that murky, difficult stuff and make it crystal clear. 01:22:32.565 --> 01:22:37.395 If you'd like to learn to train your horse in the manner of the old masters and 01:22:37.395 --> 01:22:43.195 really have fun and joy for you and your equine, go to our website, heliosharmony. 01:22:43.195 --> 01:22:45.525 com Sign up as a premium member. 01:22:45.845 --> 01:22:49.855 and begin to take the Helios Harmony course, which will take you from zero 01:22:50.325 --> 01:22:55.455 to the Piaf, where the horse is dancing on the spot in hand on the ground. 01:22:56.045 --> 01:22:59.755 And then from there, you can develop out to anywhere you want to. 01:23:00.715 --> 01:23:01.455 Heliosharmony. 01:23:01.965 --> 01:23:05.635 com to unlock the secrets of the old masters. 01:23:06.040 --> 01:23:08.880 Jeff Tomhave: Well, I think it first starts off with 01:23:09.120 --> 01:23:15.720 with everybody airing their grievances, whatever they are, get them out in the 01:23:15.720 --> 01:23:24.210 open and done with because there is so much trauma that I, I, you can physically 01:23:24.210 --> 01:23:26.100 see people carrying this trauma with them. 01:23:26.100 --> 01:23:27.900 They're, they're hunched over. 01:23:27.900 --> 01:23:29.070 It's, it's, it's in them. 01:23:29.070 --> 01:23:29.130 Yeah. 01:23:29.395 --> 01:23:29.515 Yeah. 01:23:29.515 --> 01:23:31.110 You can see the pain in them. 01:23:31.560 --> 01:23:36.310 And I think once you start to let it out, I think it'll, it'll happen. 01:23:36.640 --> 01:23:43.000 And I think once people aren't overburdened with whatever the 01:23:43.000 --> 01:23:46.540 trauma is, whether it's immediate trauma from something they've 01:23:46.540 --> 01:23:50.140 experienced, or it's this historic trauma, you know, it's still there. 01:23:50.140 --> 01:23:51.910 It exists, it's real. 01:23:52.300 --> 01:23:58.250 And there isn't a way to, I think deal with it in a healthy manner. 01:23:58.790 --> 01:24:02.450 There are now Indian Health Service programs to deal with people's 01:24:02.450 --> 01:24:03.860 historic trauma, put it that way. 01:24:04.220 --> 01:24:04.520 Rupert Isaacson: Ah, 01:24:04.520 --> 01:24:07.760 Jeff Tomhave: you can't go to a local clinic and, and, and, 01:24:07.940 --> 01:24:09.650 you know, get that service. 01:24:09.650 --> 01:24:10.580 It doesn't exist. 01:24:10.640 --> 01:24:11.060 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 01:24:11.270 --> 01:24:14.750 Jeff Tomhave: But once people have done that and, and, and they sort of relieve 01:24:14.750 --> 01:24:16.370 themselves, or at least, you know. 01:24:16.790 --> 01:24:21.890 Released some of that anguish and, and pain, you can start 01:24:21.890 --> 01:24:22.910 talking about, oh, okay. 01:24:22.910 --> 01:24:25.550 We can start dreaming, we can start thinking about possibility. 01:24:25.550 --> 01:24:27.110 We can start doing things differently. 01:24:27.620 --> 01:24:31.520 You know, perhaps we should stop disenrolling our members. 01:24:31.760 --> 01:24:33.200 I mean, that would be a great idea. 01:24:33.260 --> 01:24:33.980 Rupert Isaacson: Tell me about that. 01:24:33.980 --> 01:24:35.150 I wouldn't even know what that means. 01:24:37.850 --> 01:24:41.420 Jeff Tomhave: Because tribes have been successful with gaming some 01:24:41.420 --> 01:24:45.020 tribes have just started disenrolling their members because they, they 01:24:45.020 --> 01:24:46.340 don't wanna share the profits. 01:24:46.760 --> 01:24:48.350 They want to keep 'em all to themselves. 01:24:48.830 --> 01:24:53.000 And so there's a, it's a, it's a thing that's been going on for, 01:24:53.000 --> 01:24:55.070 you know, the past 20 years now. 01:24:55.520 --> 01:24:57.650 Tribes will just disenroll people. 01:24:58.280 --> 01:25:00.110 Rupert Isaacson: How does one, how does one get away with that? 01:25:00.110 --> 01:25:02.630 I mean, if you're born into that tribe, you're, that's like 01:25:02.630 --> 01:25:06.620 disen, that's like denying your ci stripping of your citizenship. 01:25:07.340 --> 01:25:08.420 How, how can that happen? 01:25:08.420 --> 01:25:09.260 How does that happen? 01:25:11.010 --> 01:25:18.120 Jeff Tomhave: Well, you, the current tribal government will say we no longer 01:25:18.120 --> 01:25:24.450 recognize these families as being, you know, legitimately members of our tribe. 01:25:25.050 --> 01:25:29.280 And they'll point to something, some historic, you know, thing about that 01:25:29.550 --> 01:25:33.750 family, that family line to say, that's why they're not a member of the tribe. 01:25:34.845 --> 01:25:37.425 And because it's the tribal government, they can do it. 01:25:38.115 --> 01:25:42.555 And the federal government says, oh, it's an internal tribal matter. 01:25:42.555 --> 01:25:44.295 We, we can't do anything about this. 01:25:45.495 --> 01:25:50.205 And so you've got this phenomenon now where, where tribes are disenrolling 01:25:50.205 --> 01:25:53.625 their members in the short term. 01:25:53.625 --> 01:25:57.555 What that does is that increases their, their own percentage of whatever, you 01:25:57.555 --> 01:26:02.955 know, gaming profits there are, but it also decreases their tribal members. 01:26:03.045 --> 01:26:07.785 And federal services are based upon how many members of the tribe you have. 01:26:08.235 --> 01:26:13.725 And eventually one of one of the consequences of a, of a federal law 01:26:13.725 --> 01:26:17.715 that's about a hundred years old now, it's called the Blood quantum. 01:26:18.285 --> 01:26:23.985 You know, only members of your tribe that have this amount of Indian blood in them 01:26:23.985 --> 01:26:26.325 are considered members of your tribe. 01:26:26.595 --> 01:26:31.875 Once they, you know, once they fall below that amount, they're 01:26:31.875 --> 01:26:34.485 no longer members of your tribe. 01:26:34.755 --> 01:26:36.045 They're no longer Indians. 01:26:36.405 --> 01:26:37.185 And so. 01:26:38.115 --> 01:26:43.425 The genocide, it still is going on, is just a paper legislative genocide. 01:26:43.425 --> 01:26:46.995 Now, whether the federal government does it through blood quantum or 01:26:46.995 --> 01:26:50.205 whether tribes themselves do it through disenrollment, it's happening. 01:26:50.475 --> 01:26:54.165 So basically the ultimate result of genocide is when you get people 01:26:54.165 --> 01:26:57.405 to kill them, kill themselves, which is what is happening now. 01:26:57.825 --> 01:27:06.585 And so if tribes can stop disenrolling people, that will be a big step 01:27:06.585 --> 01:27:09.195 into realizing a, a better future. 01:27:10.185 --> 01:27:13.545 Rupert Isaacson: Do you think, are you any part of trying to get that to happen? 01:27:13.725 --> 01:27:16.485 I mean, and is there some, is there an appeal process? 01:27:16.695 --> 01:27:21.225 And could you go and say, and get a DNA test and say, actually look, I am, you 01:27:21.225 --> 01:27:24.635 know, totally a member of this tribe because look, here's the DNA test. 01:27:25.055 --> 01:27:28.475 What are, yeah, what recourse would somebo do people have if, if that, 01:27:29.015 --> 01:27:30.545 and is it arbitrary and sudden? 01:27:30.545 --> 01:27:35.795 Does someone just like get a letter through the mailbox saying, sorry, 01:27:35.795 --> 01:27:37.445 you're not a member of the tribe anymore. 01:27:37.925 --> 01:27:40.835 And it like, yeah. 01:27:41.195 --> 01:27:42.515 So how does it happen? 01:27:42.515 --> 01:27:43.835 Is there an appeal process? 01:27:44.015 --> 01:27:48.755 What about DNA tests and how would people stop? 01:27:48.785 --> 01:27:52.655 How would you stop this process inside the genocide? 01:27:52.655 --> 01:27:53.225 Interesting. 01:27:55.190 --> 01:27:55.580 Jeff Tomhave: Yeah. 01:27:55.610 --> 01:28:00.020 Well, there is no appeal process as, as I mentioned before, if a, if a 01:28:00.020 --> 01:28:05.000 currently, you know, legitimate tribal government decides they wanna disenroll, 01:28:05.000 --> 01:28:07.880 you know, so many people they can do it. 01:28:08.270 --> 01:28:08.630 Right? 01:28:08.635 --> 01:28:12.260 And, and the federal government who's supposed to have oversight 01:28:12.800 --> 01:28:16.910 always says, this is an internal matter we're not gonna deal with. 01:28:16.910 --> 01:28:18.230 It's an internal tribal matter. 01:28:18.230 --> 01:28:20.360 We have no say over this. 01:28:20.630 --> 01:28:25.220 And of course, they like that because the less, the less tribal people they have 01:28:25.220 --> 01:28:27.050 to deal with, the easier their job is. 01:28:27.380 --> 01:28:27.680 Yeah. 01:28:27.780 --> 01:28:29.310 So there's no appeal process. 01:28:29.410 --> 01:28:34.900 As far as I know, there's no, you know, movement to try to rectify this. 01:28:35.320 --> 01:28:39.580 There is no, you know, DNA fight to, to, to, because there 01:28:39.580 --> 01:28:40.240 Rupert Isaacson: ought to be right. 01:28:40.240 --> 01:28:44.350 If there's a blood quantum, there ought to be a DNA answer to that, right? 01:28:44.590 --> 01:28:44.740 Jeff Tomhave: Yes. 01:28:45.010 --> 01:28:45.880 There, there should be. 01:28:46.090 --> 01:28:50.470 Well, and the thing too is, is, as I've been saying all along, is, you know, 01:28:50.470 --> 01:28:55.270 this federal law that says there's blood quantum tribes don't have to follow that. 01:28:55.300 --> 01:29:00.100 They can say, no, this is, this is what we consider to be a tribal member. 01:29:00.460 --> 01:29:00.490 Okay? 01:29:00.490 --> 01:29:03.310 And it could be somebody who's been a historic member of a tribe. 01:29:03.580 --> 01:29:07.090 I mean, historically you didn't even have to be Indian to 01:29:07.090 --> 01:29:08.260 become a member of a tribe. 01:29:08.260 --> 01:29:11.290 A tribe could just adopt you in, and then now you're a member of the tribe. 01:29:11.350 --> 01:29:13.780 I mean, it could get back to. 01:29:14.455 --> 01:29:15.955 That at some point. 01:29:16.315 --> 01:29:20.185 And I think for a lot of tribes where they're dwindling down to, you 01:29:20.185 --> 01:29:23.695 know, just a couple of dozen members, they need to do something like that. 01:29:23.695 --> 01:29:25.495 Otherwise, they're not gonna be a tribe anymore. 01:29:25.855 --> 01:29:27.025 They're not gonna exist. 01:29:28.045 --> 01:29:28.435 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 01:29:28.435 --> 01:29:32.455 That, that would, yeah, that would seem to be logical. 01:29:32.455 --> 01:29:38.245 So it, it, you know, it's just, it is intriguing to me because let's say 01:29:39.745 --> 01:29:43.015 somebody is gonna get stripped of their citizenship for whatever reason, which is 01:29:43.105 --> 01:29:46.855 like one of the most extreme things that can happen, and it almost never happens. 01:29:47.605 --> 01:29:52.195 There would be all kinds of legal challenges that could and would be made, 01:29:52.345 --> 01:29:55.795 you know, if someone was to try and take away your American citizenship or 01:29:55.795 --> 01:29:57.385 your British citizenship or whatever. 01:29:57.865 --> 01:29:59.275 It's, it's so extreme. 01:29:59.275 --> 01:30:01.705 If it happens, you've gotta be a member of a terrorist organization 01:30:01.705 --> 01:30:03.025 or something, or something. 01:30:03.835 --> 01:30:04.135 Jeff Tomhave: Yep. 01:30:04.515 --> 01:30:07.575 Rupert Isaacson: So I'm, I'm a little bit stunned to know that 01:30:07.575 --> 01:30:11.055 there's no appeal process and that there'd be no DNA answer to it. 01:30:11.925 --> 01:30:16.435 But equally, as you say why not adopt people in? 01:30:17.305 --> 01:30:20.635 And then why not be very wise about who you adopt? 01:30:20.665 --> 01:30:23.455 Like why not adopt Warren Buffet? 01:30:23.725 --> 01:30:29.415 You know, why not adopt Jeff Bezos, you know, and say, alright, now 01:30:29.415 --> 01:30:30.735 you are, you are, you are a homie. 01:30:30.735 --> 01:30:32.385 So, you know, let's, let's see. 01:30:32.385 --> 01:30:33.165 Some of that money to. 01:30:34.110 --> 01:30:35.580 Build a hospital or two please. 01:30:35.940 --> 01:30:38.670 You know, which clearly they've got that money. 01:30:40.290 --> 01:30:44.880 Is that, is, is it something like that actually, is it something 01:30:45.840 --> 01:30:52.050 about no, no longer trying to protect culture and hold it apart? 01:30:53.280 --> 01:31:01.590 And coming back to my question about why would Native Americans adopt so eagerly 01:31:02.430 --> 01:31:10.920 white culture, but actually could there be a wisdom in that integration in order 01:31:10.920 --> 01:31:18.480 to sort of do a more successful version of what the Choctaws did to say, okay, 01:31:18.480 --> 01:31:25.770 well then, then let's swell our numbers and then let's decide, okay, if your 01:31:25.770 --> 01:31:31.200 family has been in America at all for some gender, or even if you've just got 01:31:31.200 --> 01:31:39.050 off the boat and we like you, maybe, you know, all, all new new American citizens. 01:31:39.050 --> 01:31:42.200 Like when I got my American citizenship, what if, what if 32 tribes had 01:31:42.200 --> 01:31:45.315 come to me and said, sort of made a little presentation to me and said, 01:31:45.320 --> 01:31:48.290 which one of us would you like to, you know, we'd love to have you. 01:31:48.920 --> 01:31:51.860 Of course if we have you, you know, we'd like you to. 01:31:52.265 --> 01:31:55.115 Rather like a church, we'd like you to pay a tithe and, you know, 01:31:55.175 --> 01:31:58.125 that would go towards, you know, some of the things that we did. 01:31:58.125 --> 01:32:00.945 But, you know, here, here are the benefits of being a member of, 01:32:01.065 --> 01:32:03.015 of, of this tribe or that tribe. 01:32:03.285 --> 01:32:06.315 It's very interesting, isn't it, that that isn't the way of thinking. 01:32:07.255 --> 01:32:08.995 Do, do you think something like that could happen? 01:32:14.095 --> 01:32:16.275 Jeff Tomhave: I I think it's possible. 01:32:16.605 --> 01:32:17.955 I don't think it's realistic. 01:32:17.955 --> 01:32:21.495 I don't think tribes would want to do it, but I definitely see 01:32:21.495 --> 01:32:24.405 the benefit of how you could 01:32:26.865 --> 01:32:32.275 increase your political reach if you had people who had different skill 01:32:32.275 --> 01:32:36.335 sets and different economic levels. 01:32:36.385 --> 01:32:38.395 Yeah, I, I de, I definitely see that. 01:32:38.476 --> 01:32:41.536 You know, and that's, you know, again, I go back to that's 01:32:41.536 --> 01:32:43.426 something that tribes used to do. 01:32:43.431 --> 01:32:47.986 You know, you used to adopt people, you know, the, you know, in my part 01:32:47.986 --> 01:32:51.046 of the country in North Dakota, you know, the first people that we, the 01:32:51.046 --> 01:32:57.136 first Europeans we met were the French, you know, and, you know, we adopted 01:32:57.136 --> 01:32:59.506 French people into our tribe, you know? 01:32:59.506 --> 01:32:59.516 Mm-hmm. 01:33:00.436 --> 01:33:04.906 And, you know, the Hadza knew French before they knew English, you know. 01:33:05.356 --> 01:33:09.316 So it's, it, it's not out of the realm of possibility. 01:33:10.396 --> 01:33:12.795 But I do like your idea of, of Warren Buffet. 01:33:12.795 --> 01:33:13.575 That's a, that's, 01:33:13.665 --> 01:33:13.875 Rupert Isaacson: yeah. 01:33:13.875 --> 01:33:14.835 I mean, why not? 01:33:14.840 --> 01:33:14.960 You know? 01:33:16.620 --> 01:33:17.000 Jeff Tomhave: But, you know, 01:33:17.476 --> 01:33:19.785 Rupert Isaacson: is every, is every American president an honorary 01:33:19.785 --> 01:33:21.226 member of a tribe, for example? 01:33:22.965 --> 01:33:23.865 They should be, shouldn't they? 01:33:23.870 --> 01:33:24.405 Jeff Tomhave: It should be. 01:33:24.465 --> 01:33:24.945 Exactly. 01:33:25.186 --> 01:33:25.635 Exactly. 01:33:25.875 --> 01:33:29.135 I think I think tribal people would probably be more comfortable with 01:33:29.135 --> 01:33:33.476 somebody like Mark ruffle because, you know, he's out there, you know, on on 01:33:33.476 --> 01:33:37.616 the front lines, you know, whenever there is a, whenever there's an issue. 01:33:38.156 --> 01:33:38.906 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, sure. 01:33:39.746 --> 01:33:39.956 But 01:33:40.796 --> 01:33:43.616 Jeff Tomhave: having the Hulk would be, would be a, a big catch. 01:33:44.186 --> 01:33:45.386 But I, I don't know. 01:33:45.496 --> 01:33:51.276 You know, but seriously, I think that there are a lot of people who don't 01:33:51.276 --> 01:33:54.126 know that they do have native heritage. 01:33:54.516 --> 01:33:58.536 You know, it might be family lore, it might be suspected, and 01:33:58.536 --> 01:34:02.766 of course now with DNA, you know, you can be more certain of that. 01:34:02.916 --> 01:34:03.006 Mm-hmm. 01:34:03.006 --> 01:34:05.256 But I mean, I think to start the conversation, it would 01:34:05.256 --> 01:34:08.376 have to be something along, you know, that kind of mm-hmm. 01:34:08.496 --> 01:34:12.326 Scientifically, you know, sort of genetically there's gotta 01:34:12.326 --> 01:34:15.956 be a more than just, oh, you wanna be a member of a tribe? 01:34:15.986 --> 01:34:17.816 There's gotta be something there. 01:34:19.286 --> 01:34:21.446 I definitely like the idea of. 01:34:21.791 --> 01:34:22.781 What can you bring? 01:34:22.871 --> 01:34:26.651 Not tribes going to a new citizen and saying, Hey, here's what we can offer you. 01:34:26.651 --> 01:34:30.521 But people coming to the tribes saying, here's what you can, you know, 01:34:30.551 --> 01:34:31.841 here's what you can offer the tribe. 01:34:32.231 --> 01:34:35.201 Here's my skillset, here's my, here's my reach. 01:34:35.201 --> 01:34:42.161 You know, here's, here's everybody that I know who, who can, who will 01:34:42.431 --> 01:34:45.341 go to their member of Congress and do this thing for you. 01:34:45.496 --> 01:34:45.761 You know? 01:34:45.776 --> 01:34:45.996 Mm. 01:34:47.296 --> 01:34:47.416 I 01:34:47.576 --> 01:34:48.056 Rupert Isaacson: I think, yeah. 01:34:48.221 --> 01:34:50.771 I wonder if the tribes can have like a golden visa type thing. 01:34:50.771 --> 01:34:54.821 It's like, yeah, you can come in and you can, you know, live here and you 01:34:54.821 --> 01:34:58.521 can have a nice house and you can do all this and but you know, it's 01:34:58.521 --> 01:35:02.471 gonna cost you 500 grand and you know, you need to build that hospital. 01:35:03.071 --> 01:35:06.340 But it seems to me though that yeah, 'cause what we're dealing 01:35:06.340 --> 01:35:08.291 with the i is the idea of nations. 01:35:09.311 --> 01:35:11.500 Some people say tribes, some people say nation, right? 01:35:11.500 --> 01:35:11.590 Yes. 01:35:12.311 --> 01:35:18.041 And nations can nation build or they can decline and, and die or, or 01:35:18.041 --> 01:35:19.661 become absorbed into other nations. 01:35:19.661 --> 01:35:22.000 And we know that's the process of history. 01:35:22.661 --> 01:35:27.611 It just is intriguing that despite all attempts to extinguish it, 01:35:28.511 --> 01:35:30.221 native America is still there. 01:35:30.431 --> 01:35:35.441 And as you say, so many people who have lived for more than a 01:35:35.441 --> 01:35:40.211 couple of generations in North America do have ma native blood. 01:35:41.021 --> 01:35:45.731 And perhaps that is something that might bring. 01:35:46.661 --> 01:35:48.971 Things to a, a, a better person. 01:35:48.971 --> 01:35:49.811 You yourself. 01:35:49.871 --> 01:35:55.961 Now, are you, you've, you've lived a long time in DC doing this advocacy work, so 01:35:55.961 --> 01:36:00.431 you can obviously work and you and your wife are now moving back to the Dakotas. 01:36:00.431 --> 01:36:02.081 I mean, that's why you're sitting in that empty room. 01:36:02.081 --> 01:36:04.211 I happen to know 'cause you're moving house. 01:36:04.661 --> 01:36:04.871 Jeff Tomhave: Yes. 01:36:04.876 --> 01:36:09.901 Rupert Isaacson: You've gone, you've bought this old school on the is it 01:36:09.901 --> 01:36:13.321 the Mandan and reservation standing? 01:36:13.326 --> 01:36:15.526 Jeff Tomhave: No, we're, we're in we're in Eastern North Dakota. 01:36:15.556 --> 01:36:17.656 We're about four hours from my reservation. 01:36:17.896 --> 01:36:18.406 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:36:18.656 --> 01:36:19.736 Jeff Tomhave: An hour west of Fargo. 01:36:20.306 --> 01:36:26.456 Rupert Isaacson: So you yourself are deciding to go back to Native America? 01:36:27.476 --> 01:36:27.776 Jeff Tomhave: Yes. 01:36:28.076 --> 01:36:28.616 Rupert Isaacson: Why? 01:36:28.616 --> 01:36:29.636 And what are you gonna do there? 01:36:31.176 --> 01:36:34.176 Jeff Tomhave: Well, as you mentioned, we bought this old school and 01:36:34.176 --> 01:36:35.556 we're gonna turn it into our house. 01:36:35.556 --> 01:36:40.466 But also it's gonna be, you know, where our businesses are located. 01:36:40.466 --> 01:36:45.086 So Tom Hay Group will be there, and Brandy is executive director 01:36:45.086 --> 01:36:46.916 of Native American Humane Society. 01:36:46.976 --> 01:36:48.356 That will be centered there. 01:36:48.806 --> 01:36:53.656 This new cancer treatment network that I'm creating that will be centered there. 01:36:53.866 --> 01:36:58.846 So not only it's gonna be our residents and the center of our businesses, but 01:36:58.846 --> 01:37:03.166 because it is an old school, we intend on keeping one of the classrooms as an 01:37:03.166 --> 01:37:09.436 old classroom, I mean as a classroom, so that we can invite, different tribal 01:37:09.466 --> 01:37:13.156 governments, different tribal entities and organizations there so that we 01:37:13.156 --> 01:37:17.596 can conduct trainings, they can have their own trainings and meetings there. 01:37:18.136 --> 01:37:25.576 Since we will be, you know, in North Dakota, you know, we are, we are just 01:37:25.576 --> 01:37:31.426 a couple of days drive from about half the reservations in the country. 01:37:31.966 --> 01:37:34.246 And so that is really important to us. 01:37:34.816 --> 01:37:40.686 Plus you know, when we made this purchase and I told my cousin who runs the hospital 01:37:40.686 --> 01:37:44.436 on, on my reservation, said, Hey, I'm gonna be four hours away from you. 01:37:44.436 --> 01:37:45.186 She said, great. 01:37:45.186 --> 01:37:48.726 She said, because, you know, other than her immediate family, you 01:37:48.726 --> 01:37:52.326 know, all of her extended family have left and she is so great. 01:37:52.326 --> 01:37:56.286 So you can come back for, you know, all of the birthdays and holidays, but especially 01:37:56.286 --> 01:38:01.566 the, the tribal ceremonies, which, because I've never lived there, I've 01:38:01.566 --> 01:38:02.976 never been able to participate in 'em. 01:38:02.976 --> 01:38:05.556 I've always lived, you know, a few times zones away. 01:38:05.736 --> 01:38:10.506 So it's never anything that was ever in, you know, my, my thinking. 01:38:10.656 --> 01:38:14.986 But now that she's thinking yeah, you can come for the tribal ceremonies, you know, 01:38:15.226 --> 01:38:18.886 to these you know, sacred ceremonies, which I've never been a part of. 01:38:19.021 --> 01:38:23.686 You know, that's really that's really something that I'm looking forward to. 01:38:23.686 --> 01:38:23.776 Mm-hmm. 01:38:24.091 --> 01:38:28.676 Especially since, you know, I'm getting older and, you know, 01:38:29.276 --> 01:38:29.456 Rupert Isaacson: yeah. 01:38:29.561 --> 01:38:32.726 Jeff Tomhave: We're, you know, none of us are gonna last forever, so I, I actually 01:38:32.726 --> 01:38:37.705 want to be able to, pass this stuff on to our son so that he knows it, you 01:38:37.705 --> 01:38:39.955 know, well before he's in his sixties. 01:38:40.401 --> 01:38:41.696 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:38:42.116 --> 01:38:46.616 No, I mean, like I said, you know, further back in this conversation, I myself just 01:38:46.616 --> 01:38:50.035 personally owe several debts of gratitude. 01:38:50.035 --> 01:38:53.245 I talk, I, you know, to Native American ceremony. 01:38:53.606 --> 01:38:55.436 I told you about the one with my son. 01:38:56.056 --> 01:38:58.875 Previous to that also on Navajo Nation. 01:38:58.875 --> 01:39:04.665 I attended a, a sweat that was for the Bushman because I brought the 01:39:04.665 --> 01:39:09.955 Sun Bushman to the Navajo Nation as part of our attempts to help 01:39:09.955 --> 01:39:14.545 them get their legal title to their ancestral land back in, in Botswana. 01:39:14.545 --> 01:39:17.005 And it was indeed successful. 01:39:17.575 --> 01:39:23.875 The medicine man at that healing said to me, do you hunt? 01:39:24.955 --> 01:39:28.015 And I said, I do, but it might not be a, a type of hunting you 01:39:28.015 --> 01:39:31.255 are familiar with because I'm Fox hunting, British fox hunting. 01:39:31.705 --> 01:39:32.875 And he said, that's not important. 01:39:32.875 --> 01:39:36.085 I'm just getting it loud and clear from the spirit world that you 01:39:36.085 --> 01:39:39.925 have to give it up and it's somehow connected to your son's autism. 01:39:40.495 --> 01:39:41.545 I didn't even question it. 01:39:41.695 --> 01:39:46.945 I, I gave it up right there and then and then. 01:39:49.150 --> 01:39:54.460 A lot of really positive things in my life happened, like from that point when, and 01:39:54.460 --> 01:40:00.080 then when we were got into Washington, DC and we went into the State Department. 01:40:00.080 --> 01:40:03.200 Finally, we testified before Congress, congressional Human 01:40:03.200 --> 01:40:04.940 Rights Caucus and all this stuff. 01:40:05.430 --> 01:40:13.770 But it was when we walked into the State Department, we walked into the office of 01:40:13.770 --> 01:40:19.830 a man who had been, was gonna give us an interview, and he happened to be Apache. 01:40:21.180 --> 01:40:23.220 And he just looked at the guys that I was coming with. 01:40:23.220 --> 01:40:24.900 He said, he said, I know exactly what you're dealing with. 01:40:25.080 --> 01:40:27.060 I grew up on the reservation there. 01:40:27.210 --> 01:40:30.330 And he just picked up the phone and he called the Botswana land Minister 01:40:30.330 --> 01:40:33.690 in front of us and said, you guys are supposed to be our trade partners. 01:40:33.690 --> 01:40:36.150 I've got, you know, five guys sitting here from the counter house, said 01:40:36.150 --> 01:40:39.035 they've been tortured and da da da and illegally evicted, da da da. 01:40:39.040 --> 01:40:40.140 What's going on? 01:40:41.250 --> 01:40:44.700 And this had a massive se, seismic effect. 01:40:45.240 --> 01:40:50.580 The woman who set up that meeting was called Rebecca Adamson, who's Lumbee 01:40:50.580 --> 01:40:56.460 Indian from and ran First Nations Development Institute, which was basically 01:40:56.460 --> 01:41:05.520 the force in America that supported our work in Africa, again, native America. 01:41:05.790 --> 01:41:10.230 And then quite recently as recently as 2021, I was going through a personal, 01:41:10.380 --> 01:41:19.090 real personal crisis and, I ended up with a Lakota medicine man who put me 01:41:19.090 --> 01:41:27.340 through a ceremony that absolutely, absolutely dealt with the issue. 01:41:28.480 --> 01:41:32.380 And I walked into that ceremony with the issue and I walked out of 01:41:32.380 --> 01:41:34.030 that ceremony without the issue. 01:41:35.050 --> 01:41:41.110 So, and I, I wonder how many people have a story like that. 01:41:41.170 --> 01:41:45.820 I think more people, I happen to have a few of them, but I, I feel that Native 01:41:45.820 --> 01:41:51.760 America has been subsidizing, if you like, white America for a very long time, 01:41:52.210 --> 01:41:54.100 partly by simply virtue of geography. 01:41:55.030 --> 01:42:02.080 It's your place with, to some degree guests, but equally by still 01:42:02.080 --> 01:42:04.210 creating this sacred heartland. 01:42:05.440 --> 01:42:09.310 And you know, that feeling, you, you, you've spent time on Navajo, you know 01:42:09.310 --> 01:42:13.240 that when, particularly when you're down in the Southwest and you're on Navajo 01:42:13.240 --> 01:42:18.850 Nation, Hopi Nation and those places, and some of the surrounding ones, you 01:42:18.850 --> 01:42:23.020 absolutely feel that you are touching the living heart of the continent. 01:42:24.140 --> 01:42:27.105 And I don't, I know even very sort of conservative, skeptical people, 01:42:27.375 --> 01:42:28.785 white people would say the same thing. 01:42:28.965 --> 01:42:33.915 There's something about Monument Valley, there's something about those landscapes. 01:42:33.915 --> 01:42:35.865 There's something about Bryce Canyon or whatever. 01:42:37.260 --> 01:42:39.030 You are now going back in there. 01:42:39.190 --> 01:42:42.700 You have this dream, this quiet 01:42:46.120 --> 01:42:52.000 Luther King type dream, although I wish you a much better outcome personally. 01:42:52.510 --> 01:42:58.750 Do you, what do you see coming out of this place, this education and cultural 01:42:58.750 --> 01:43:04.210 and service center that you are going to start, as you say, at the heart of 01:43:04.810 --> 01:43:10.240 within two days drive of every Indian reservation, pretty much in the country 01:43:12.400 --> 01:43:13.690 dream irrationally. 01:43:14.110 --> 01:43:14.710 Please 01:43:16.750 --> 01:43:19.240 don't let rationality hamper you. 01:43:20.920 --> 01:43:23.470 Let's say 30 years after you die. 01:43:24.490 --> 01:43:28.930 What would you like to 50 years after you die, what would you like 01:43:28.930 --> 01:43:30.640 to see coming out of that place? 01:43:31.360 --> 01:43:33.430 What change landscape would you like to see? 01:43:34.120 --> 01:43:34.960 What's the legacy? 01:43:37.000 --> 01:43:40.350 Jeff Tomhave: Well, I'm glad you asked that because this is something that brand 01:43:40.350 --> 01:43:44.610 and I have been talking about and one of the things that I wanna do as Tom Hay 01:43:44.610 --> 01:43:49.510 Group, because as we, you know, mentioned before, you know, we do our advocacy 01:43:49.510 --> 01:43:54.220 in Washington DC and, you know, we've been, you know, basically guns for hire. 01:43:54.220 --> 01:43:58.870 You know, people have an issue, they hire us and, and we take care of it for them. 01:43:59.500 --> 01:44:00.400 I actually. 01:44:01.210 --> 01:44:03.340 Using the guns Slinger analogy. 01:44:03.340 --> 01:44:05.920 I don't wanna be the guns slinger, I wanna teach them how 01:44:05.920 --> 01:44:07.570 to, how to shoot on their own. 01:44:07.570 --> 01:44:07.660 Right. 01:44:07.990 --> 01:44:10.390 I want, I wanna teach them how to advocate. 01:44:10.960 --> 01:44:18.250 And ever since COVID being in DC doesn't matter because all meetings 01:44:18.250 --> 01:44:20.740 are, you know, virtual nowadays anyway. 01:44:21.010 --> 01:44:21.220 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:44:21.220 --> 01:44:26.020 Jeff Tomhave: You almost never go in and have an in-person meeting anywhere in DC 01:44:26.410 --> 01:44:32.440 And even if you do, it's a hybrid meeting, you know, some people are there, the 01:44:32.530 --> 01:44:35.020 major principles probably are elsewhere. 01:44:35.380 --> 01:44:38.710 So being in DC doesn't matter anymore. 01:44:38.710 --> 01:44:44.620 And so I think us moving to North Dakota is, you know, we're gonna, 01:44:44.680 --> 01:44:46.390 we're gonna jump on that opportunity. 01:44:46.570 --> 01:44:48.610 You don't have to be in DC to do this work anymore. 01:44:48.610 --> 01:44:48.700 Right. 01:44:49.120 --> 01:44:55.420 And, and if we can teach younger people how to do this, younger 01:44:55.420 --> 01:45:01.390 people than me, obviously, who aren't jaded, is that what the 01:45:01.390 --> 01:45:03.040 Rupert Isaacson: jd, after your name stands for? 01:45:04.150 --> 01:45:06.970 Jeff Tomhave: We still believe that things can, can work well. 01:45:06.970 --> 01:45:10.240 You know, you have to have that optimism, you have to have that energy 01:45:10.570 --> 01:45:13.165 in order to, to realize those things. 01:45:13.165 --> 01:45:19.930 So what I'm hoping to do is, is train, you know, a couple of dozen of people. 01:45:19.930 --> 01:45:23.050 So they go back to their own home communities. 01:45:23.380 --> 01:45:28.480 And so that 50 years from now, they're the ones who are doing this for themselves. 01:45:28.540 --> 01:45:29.680 They're not hiring. 01:45:30.700 --> 01:45:35.800 Any of the big fancy, you know, white shoe law firms here in, in 01:45:35.800 --> 01:45:38.230 Washington, DC to do the work for them. 01:45:38.770 --> 01:45:43.720 And believe me, most tribes do, including the Navajo Nation. 01:45:44.060 --> 01:45:47.360 They hire the big DC law firms to do this stuff. 01:45:48.410 --> 01:45:50.935 And I've been in meetings with those people. 01:45:52.160 --> 01:45:57.560 They don't know anything that you've testified in front of Congress. 01:45:57.680 --> 01:46:00.080 They don't know anything that you don't know how to do. 01:46:00.170 --> 01:46:03.050 It's like, it's, it's, this is not rocket science. 01:46:03.050 --> 01:46:05.630 It's not, there's not an alchemy here. 01:46:06.350 --> 01:46:11.930 It's telling a good compelling story to a receptive audience. 01:46:11.930 --> 01:46:15.740 And if they're not receptive now, make them receptive in the future. 01:46:16.250 --> 01:46:18.680 That's a skillset that anyone has. 01:46:19.010 --> 01:46:22.460 But there's, there's, you know, there's some particulars, you know, how to 01:46:22.460 --> 01:46:26.090 do the dance steps, you know, so I'm wanna teach them the dance steps. 01:46:26.090 --> 01:46:29.900 But basically, once they know the dance steps, they can, they 01:46:29.900 --> 01:46:31.790 can do this however they want to. 01:46:32.300 --> 01:46:37.580 And it's, it will be more effective if the advocacy comes from the 01:46:37.580 --> 01:46:39.530 actual communities themselves. 01:46:39.530 --> 01:46:40.220 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 01:46:40.325 --> 01:46:43.590 Jeff Tomhave: Because they're the ones who are gonna be impacted 01:46:43.590 --> 01:46:45.150 by whatever the outcome is. 01:46:45.480 --> 01:46:48.660 And they're the ones who have the more compelling story. 01:46:49.020 --> 01:46:54.300 And so, like I said, 50 years from now, I want them to have trained people so 01:46:54.300 --> 01:46:56.430 that they're all doing it for themselves. 01:46:56.430 --> 01:46:58.320 And maybe that that. 01:46:59.625 --> 01:47:04.755 That alliance of tribes that I'm hoping for, maybe that'll happen after I'm gone. 01:47:06.285 --> 01:47:08.685 Rupert Isaacson: I think it's a very, very logical first step. 01:47:08.715 --> 01:47:13.155 Are there other, Tom have groups out there doing similar stuff? 01:47:13.515 --> 01:47:20.385 Are you part of a growing network of people like you who are gonna start this 01:47:20.385 --> 01:47:26.115 up across Native America and bring that, you know, because it, it sounds like 01:47:26.115 --> 01:47:33.465 you, you are a, you guys would be a very important organ within a body of that, 01:47:33.495 --> 01:47:35.205 but you might need other organs as well. 01:47:35.475 --> 01:47:37.065 Do you, are there other people out there doing, 01:47:37.575 --> 01:47:42.135 Jeff Tomhave: I wish, I wish I could say there are tons of us, but in 01:47:42.135 --> 01:47:46.155 the almost 25 years that we've been doing this, we've never run across 01:47:46.155 --> 01:47:49.035 anybody who does exactly what we do. 01:47:49.035 --> 01:47:49.635 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 01:47:49.815 --> 01:47:52.815 Jeff Tomhave: You know, and, and you know, to answer your, one 01:47:52.815 --> 01:47:55.605 of your first questions of, you know, why not just be a regular 01:47:55.605 --> 01:47:57.735 lawyer and make all kinds of money? 01:47:57.735 --> 01:48:04.785 And I think you couldn't find two jds, you know, me and Brandy who make 01:48:04.785 --> 01:48:11.805 less money because if you're gonna work in Indian country, you wanna do 01:48:11.805 --> 01:48:15.585 gaming or you want to do a resource extraction, that's where the money is. 01:48:15.945 --> 01:48:16.215 Yeah. 01:48:16.485 --> 01:48:19.845 And you know, that's, that is nothing that we want any part of. 01:48:20.265 --> 01:48:23.655 First of all, there are plenty of entities out there. 01:48:24.450 --> 01:48:25.950 Who are doing that already. 01:48:26.520 --> 01:48:33.060 We wouldn't, we wouldn't compete on that level, nor would we want to, we 01:48:33.060 --> 01:48:40.370 take the hard approach of working on problems that aren't very lucrative. 01:48:40.820 --> 01:48:44.630 You know, we've, we've actually had contracts where small communities have 01:48:44.690 --> 01:48:48.170 paid us just a few thousand dollars, and we've worked for them for years. 01:48:48.440 --> 01:48:52.730 And I mean, over those course of those years, they paid us a few thousand dollars 01:48:53.140 --> 01:48:55.600 just because no one else would do it. 01:48:56.110 --> 01:49:02.500 It's a, it's a relatively easy fix that they're asking for. 01:49:02.500 --> 01:49:03.850 It just takes time. 01:49:03.850 --> 01:49:03.940 Mm-hmm. 01:49:04.210 --> 01:49:08.950 Other people wouldn't do that on another, a big huge Washington DC 01:49:08.950 --> 01:49:14.410 law firm would not take a client on like that because they don't have the 01:49:14.410 --> 01:49:18.250 money to pay for all the time that it would take to do the, we need to do. 01:49:18.790 --> 01:49:20.740 But we've done it because no one else will. 01:49:20.860 --> 01:49:27.490 And, and so I'm hoping that it, as we train other people, you know, 01:49:27.940 --> 01:49:31.960 they can do it for themselves and, and they don't need to hire anybody. 01:49:31.960 --> 01:49:35.800 But as far as I know, there is nobody that does what we do. 01:49:36.250 --> 01:49:41.950 We know other consultants who are just, you know, single, sole proprietorships, 01:49:42.430 --> 01:49:44.410 but they're working on specific things. 01:49:44.410 --> 01:49:46.660 They don't do the advocacy like we do. 01:49:46.710 --> 01:49:50.370 So there might be a, a connection to, to work in different avenues. 01:49:50.790 --> 01:49:54.040 But nobody that we know of does what we do. 01:49:55.660 --> 01:49:59.800 Rupert Isaacson: So 50 years from now, we've got, if, if 01:49:59.800 --> 01:50:01.690 there's 500 and how many nations? 01:50:02.440 --> 01:50:03.010 Jeff Tomhave: 75? 01:50:03.700 --> 01:50:09.070 Rupert Isaacson: 575, then if you had 57.5, 01:50:09.310 --> 01:50:13.240 Tom have groups dotted about the place. 01:50:13.690 --> 01:50:14.020 Jeff Tomhave: Mm-hmm. 01:50:14.590 --> 01:50:21.520 Rupert Isaacson: You'd have a sporting chance of changing the social and 01:50:21.520 --> 01:50:26.200 political landscape to a lasting degree. 01:50:26.200 --> 01:50:30.040 I think you are actually enacting that dream. 01:50:30.950 --> 01:50:34.310 And it's interesting that the only other group I came across, which was 01:50:34.310 --> 01:50:39.500 First Nations Development Institute, who helped us so massively in Africa, run 01:50:39.500 --> 01:50:45.740 by Rebecca Adamson Lumbee Indian living on the East Coast was about the, one 01:50:45.740 --> 01:50:47.870 of the only other people I ever met who 01:50:48.020 --> 01:50:48.110 Jeff Tomhave: mm-hmm. 01:50:48.410 --> 01:50:49.340 Rupert Isaacson: Was doing something similar. 01:50:49.490 --> 01:50:52.190 And of course, of course I just had to be, you know, on your website 01:50:52.190 --> 01:50:55.380 while you were talking about all that, you know, and you kept saying 01:50:55.380 --> 01:50:56.970 jd, after the names I was, had to. 01:50:57.630 --> 01:50:59.400 Look up what that means because I'm British. 01:50:59.590 --> 01:51:03.370 And it's, as you, well, you know, it's Juris doctor, a graduate level 01:51:03.370 --> 01:51:07.840 professional degree for practicing law, similar to an MD for doctors 01:51:08.620 --> 01:51:11.260 signifying completion of law school, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 01:51:11.770 --> 01:51:18.250 But what is the difference between JD and a simple lawyer or attorney 01:51:18.640 --> 01:51:20.140 and why does it make a difference? 01:51:21.760 --> 01:51:24.130 Jeff Tomhave: Well, a JD is just what you get from law school, 01:51:24.130 --> 01:51:28.780 from graduating law school and you know, being a licensed attorney. 01:51:28.780 --> 01:51:32.860 You know, you pass the state bar, whatever jurisdictions bar you're practicing in. 01:51:32.865 --> 01:51:33.075 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:51:33.095 --> 01:51:36.400 Jeff Tomhave: So that you can represent clients, you know, in 01:51:36.400 --> 01:51:40.450 that jurisdiction following that jurisdiction's, you know, procedures. 01:51:40.810 --> 01:51:41.620 So that's what it is. 01:51:41.620 --> 01:51:44.410 And so, you know, I never passed a bar. 01:51:44.530 --> 01:51:46.420 'Cause I told you I never wanted to practice. 01:51:46.420 --> 01:51:47.080 I just wanted to have the jd. 01:51:47.080 --> 01:51:47.140 Yeah. 01:51:48.220 --> 01:51:53.650 Rupert Isaacson: So if you had, again, those 57 jds, some of whom have 57.5 01:51:53.650 --> 01:51:57.510 actually some of whom have passed the bar, some of whom haven't, but all are working 01:51:57.510 --> 01:52:00.420 within jurisprudence to this degree. 01:52:00.720 --> 01:52:01.200 Yes. 01:52:01.200 --> 01:52:08.190 I think that you are actually fulfilling that, the progress towards that dream. 01:52:08.250 --> 01:52:12.390 And that's intriguing to me because in a politically very uncertain 01:52:12.390 --> 01:52:16.020 time whether you are sitting in Europe or whether you're sitting. 01:52:17.025 --> 01:52:19.605 Where you are sitting or whether you're sitting in other parts of the world. 01:52:20.445 --> 01:52:23.745 There's a feeling of instability at the moment that I think is, we haven't 01:52:23.745 --> 01:52:27.675 felt for 80 years maybe in the west. 01:52:28.485 --> 01:52:29.535 And 01:52:32.055 --> 01:52:39.975 there couldn't be a more optimal time for a dream like yours. 01:52:40.185 --> 01:52:43.395 That goes back to the heart, I think, of what it means to be American. 01:52:44.355 --> 01:52:44.475 Mm-hmm. 01:52:44.715 --> 01:52:46.305 I also wonder if 01:52:48.375 --> 01:52:53.655 something like Tom Hav group and the subgroups that come out of Tom Hav 01:52:53.655 --> 01:52:57.765 group, once you plant yourself back there in North Dakota, and I, I could 01:52:57.765 --> 01:53:05.865 see this having an international reach as well, where people might want to engage 01:53:05.925 --> 01:53:11.955 you and the groups that you inspire, similar to the way that the Kalahari 01:53:11.955 --> 01:53:17.415 Bushman engage first Nations Development Institute and also people practicing 01:53:17.415 --> 01:53:23.455 international law, wanting to come an intern, you know, and get a sense of that. 01:53:23.455 --> 01:53:28.315 You know, we, we benefited definitely from pro bono lawyers, many of whom were 01:53:28.315 --> 01:53:32.995 young lawyers in DC who wanted to come and do pro bono work for us in Africa. 01:53:33.805 --> 01:53:36.865 Get a real knowledge of how that whole thing worked. 01:53:37.445 --> 01:53:39.725 I could see that happening the other way as well. 01:53:39.785 --> 01:53:44.185 And people from other parts of the world wanting to come and work on 01:53:44.185 --> 01:53:48.775 these issues with you all to get an understanding to then bring home 01:53:49.225 --> 01:53:53.665 to their communities, even honestly within Europe we, we have these issues. 01:53:54.625 --> 01:53:56.845 I'm very intrigued to see how you and Brandy 01:53:58.915 --> 01:53:59.635 proceed. 01:54:00.305 --> 01:54:04.505 When are you guys officially landing there at that old school 01:54:04.565 --> 01:54:06.575 and hanging up the shield? 01:54:06.755 --> 01:54:07.445 Hanging up the 01:54:08.195 --> 01:54:08.285 Jeff Tomhave: sign? 01:54:09.845 --> 01:54:12.845 Well, as, as you can see, we're still in the process of moving out of here. 01:54:12.845 --> 01:54:16.235 So there's some stuff that we have to do to, to get this place, you know, 01:54:16.325 --> 01:54:16.535 Rupert Isaacson: yeah. 01:54:16.535 --> 01:54:17.435 Jeff Tomhave: On the market. 01:54:17.915 --> 01:54:22.705 But because it's it's winter here in, well, especially North Dakota right 01:54:22.735 --> 01:54:27.095 now is here in Baltimore, I think it was, it's in the thirties, but this 01:54:27.095 --> 01:54:30.485 morning when I went for a run and it was 25 degrees and I think that's what, 01:54:30.485 --> 01:54:32.915 like three or four CEL minus Celsius. 01:54:33.155 --> 01:54:33.545 Yeah, it's 01:54:33.545 --> 01:54:34.145 Rupert Isaacson: minus three or s 01:54:34.290 --> 01:54:36.245 Jeff Tomhave: so, so it's, it's still pretty cold. 01:54:36.305 --> 01:54:40.805 So we gotta wait till winter to be over in North Dakota before we can go in, because 01:54:40.805 --> 01:54:41.825 Rupert Isaacson: that's August, right? 01:54:43.865 --> 01:54:44.975 Jeff Tomhave: Well, April. 01:54:45.095 --> 01:54:47.595 April so probably mid-April is when we're finally gonna out. 01:54:48.000 --> 01:54:49.080 Be leaving here. 01:54:49.140 --> 01:54:51.360 So hopefully we'll have this place up on the market, you 01:54:51.360 --> 01:54:53.370 know, May 1st and we'll be there. 01:54:53.490 --> 01:54:56.490 And then we'll be, you know, rehabbing the school. 01:54:56.550 --> 01:55:00.540 And first we have to build our, our own, our own living space. 01:55:00.570 --> 01:55:02.670 'cause it is just a school. 01:55:03.060 --> 01:55:05.820 But once we do, we'll hope, hope you come by and have a 01:55:06.300 --> 01:55:06.990 Rupert Isaacson: I would love to. 01:55:08.010 --> 01:55:08.580 I would love to. 01:55:08.580 --> 01:55:11.100 And North Dakota's a state I've never been to, so I've never been 01:55:11.100 --> 01:55:14.100 to either of the Dakotas and I've, I've been intrigued by them forever. 01:55:14.610 --> 01:55:17.070 So I can see it on, on the horizon. 01:55:17.070 --> 01:55:20.550 And I wanna have you guys, both you and Brandy back on the show. 01:55:21.040 --> 01:55:25.840 Let's give it, you know, a year, 18 months and see where you guys are at, you know. 01:55:25.940 --> 01:55:29.900 I'll also be coming back to Montana in in September for the same event. 01:55:30.260 --> 01:55:35.510 So, you know, I dunno if you, and one thing I would love to do is 01:55:35.510 --> 01:55:40.040 get involved with what you are doing on the mental health, neuro, 01:55:40.430 --> 01:55:43.190 you know, neuropsychiatric side. 01:55:43.820 --> 01:55:43.910 Mm-hmm. 01:55:44.100 --> 01:55:47.400 And I know that there are also people out there within Native 01:55:47.400 --> 01:55:50.620 America doing that work very well, like Jessica White Plume and so on. 01:55:50.620 --> 01:55:50.865 Mm-hmm. 01:55:51.040 --> 01:55:53.680 And people like that, that I could learn a lot from. 01:55:53.680 --> 01:55:56.890 So, yeah, I think it's an ongoing conversation and I, I 01:55:56.890 --> 01:55:57.910 would love to work together. 01:55:58.400 --> 01:56:00.440 Yes, there's autism and there's all that stuff out there in 01:56:00.440 --> 01:56:01.820 Native America, you know? 01:56:02.150 --> 01:56:02.510 Jeff Tomhave: Yes. 01:56:02.510 --> 01:56:06.440 And I, and I believe Jessica is about four hours away from where, where we'll be. 01:56:06.980 --> 01:56:07.460 So yes. 01:56:07.460 --> 01:56:07.470 Perfect. 01:56:08.330 --> 01:56:12.550 Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so it's watch this space and Jeff, 01:56:12.550 --> 01:56:14.350 Tom have, has a dream lads. 01:56:14.770 --> 01:56:16.870 So let's let's dream it with him. 01:56:17.340 --> 01:56:17.490 Alright. 01:56:17.790 --> 01:56:18.030 Yeah. 01:56:18.030 --> 01:56:18.930 For a better world. 01:56:19.230 --> 01:56:19.500 Jeff. 01:56:19.500 --> 01:56:20.220 It's been amazing. 01:56:20.220 --> 01:56:22.680 Thanks so much for, for coming on. 01:56:22.680 --> 01:56:22.770 Well, 01:56:23.400 --> 01:56:24.270 Jeff Tomhave: thanks for having me. 01:56:24.710 --> 01:56:27.380 Rupert Isaacson: Just give us the, or I guess I can give it to you 'cause 01:56:27.380 --> 01:56:31.880 I'm on your website as I speak where I was and then I, I went to, so 01:56:32.030 --> 01:56:38.000 Tom hav group, T-O-M-H-A-V-E group. 01:56:39.370 --> 01:56:39.460 Dot 01:56:39.940 --> 01:56:40.330 Jeff Tomhave: com. 01:56:40.630 --> 01:56:41.590 Rupert Isaacson: Dot com, right. 01:56:41.890 --> 01:56:47.290 And the, the work is really broad. 01:56:47.320 --> 01:56:50.560 You know, I, I was, I was cruising around on your site. 01:56:51.280 --> 01:56:54.430 Looking at you, you, you've talked about some of the work that you've 01:56:54.430 --> 01:57:00.520 done, but you know, there's also roads, jails missing, an indigenous mi missing 01:57:00.520 --> 01:57:02.560 and murdered indigenous persons. 01:57:03.070 --> 01:57:06.130 How you do what you do, your cancer watch stuff. 01:57:06.550 --> 01:57:08.680 Your there, there, there's so much on here. 01:57:08.680 --> 01:57:14.470 I do really recommend listeners, viewers go on Tom have group.com 01:57:14.680 --> 01:57:16.480 and have a look at the work that they do. 01:57:17.110 --> 01:57:23.200 And if you are a young aspiring lawyer or other person who might like to. 01:57:24.250 --> 01:57:27.220 Get involved in some way and perhaps internal or something. 01:57:27.670 --> 01:57:31.180 I would suggest that you reach out to Jeff and Brandy through that website. 01:57:31.420 --> 01:57:32.080 Can they do that? 01:57:32.080 --> 01:57:32.890 Can people do that? 01:57:33.310 --> 01:57:33.760 Jeff Tomhave: Yes. 01:57:34.360 --> 01:57:34.570 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:57:35.140 --> 01:57:35.560 Okay. 01:57:35.565 --> 01:57:38.675 Jeff Tomhave: Just look just email info@togroup.com 01:57:38.675 --> 01:57:40.175 and we'll get it 01:57:40.715 --> 01:57:43.265 Rupert Isaacson: info@tomhavegroup.com. 01:57:43.745 --> 01:57:44.015 Yep. 01:57:44.525 --> 01:57:45.665 Alright, brilliant. 01:57:46.145 --> 01:57:47.555 I look forward to the next meeting. 01:57:48.065 --> 01:57:48.995 Jeff Tomhave: All right, me too. 01:57:49.265 --> 01:57:49.775 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:57:50.255 --> 01:57:51.035 Happy moving. 01:57:51.785 --> 01:57:52.235 Jeff Tomhave: Thanks. 01:57:52.625 --> 01:57:53.045 Rupert Isaacson: Bye bye. 01:57:53.045 --> 01:57:53.105 Bye. 01:57:53.105 --> 01:57:56.485 I hope you enjoyed today's conversation as much as I did. 01:57:57.315 --> 01:58:01.065 If you did, please help us to make more. 01:58:01.065 --> 01:58:04.945 Please like, subscribe, tell a friend, give us a thumbs up. 01:58:05.395 --> 01:58:10.645 If you'd like to support us on Patreon, please go to my website, rupertisakson. 01:58:10.965 --> 01:58:11.315 com. 01:58:11.515 --> 01:58:14.695 And if you'd like to find out about our certification courses with. 01:58:15.085 --> 01:58:19.035 autism, education, horsemanship, everyday shamanism. 01:58:19.095 --> 01:58:21.435 There's a whole range of cool stuff. 01:58:21.855 --> 01:58:24.885 Putting a show together like this is not 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