Joe: There's reality, which is loving awareness,
Sam: unconcerned by the arising and passing away of phenomena.
Ali: And then there are the 10, 000
things.
Sam: Welcome to the 10, 000 things.
My name is Sam Ellis.
Joe: I'm Joe Loh.
Ali: And I'm Ali Catramados.
Joe: Today on the show, how do we know if therapy is working?
Uh, I propose this topic.
I've been doing a lot of work in the last three years in psychoanalysis.
And sometimes as I speak, to my psychoanalyst about, it's a
bit, unclear if it's working.
Ali, Sam, also both in therapy, uh, what are your thoughts?
Sam: I think
Sometimes it's impossible to tell and other times you really feel like
you've just aced it and you walk out.
Going, Oh, mate, I'm cured.
I'm there.
Joe: Oh, no.
See, I always feel good afterwards, but what's not clear is what's changing.
Ali: Hmm.
I have like, so I'm like, Sam, sometimes I come out and it's like, Oh, I
really feel, you know, like positive.
And then sometimes it's not so clear,
but anytime I have doubt and I say that to my psychologist, he always says, yes,
but look, you can't compare yourself.
To like what you're thinking of feeling you should be, he goes,
look at yourself six months ago, 12 months ago, two years ago.
And that's where I can say, actually, hang on, this is really working because
I've made very different decisions.
I've made better choices.
it might not still have the outcome that I want, but it's better than
what historically I would have done.
So I can definitely see it in the big scheme of things.
Sam: Yeah, that's right.
If you're trying to measure progress against some sort of ideal image
of the self that's gonna be, you're not gonna see it that much of it.
You might see some, um, and yeah, it might be good to have high aspirations and high
expectations of yourself sometimes, but if you are, one of the big problems with
the human mind is that it's very good at,
healing over the scars of its own changes that it's had to make over time.
So neuroplasticity, which is like good news.
One thing that can happen is you forget how fucked up you were and you are unable,
you're unable to appreciate the progress you've made until you are reminded of it.
Maybe there's an audio recording or a video recording of yourself at a
certain point, or you see an old photo or just whatever it is that you realize,
Oh, I actually have come a long way.
So holding onto that, journal entries are really good.
Like I don't have very many, but I occasionally stumble across
something, you know, I wrote scribbled down 15 years ago, and I'm like,
Joe: I've done it every day since March.
Sam: Yeah.
So yeah.
Can you, can you say
Joe: like, I had to look back the other day, actually, I'm
a bit scared to look back.
Sam: Yeah.
It is.
It's horrifying sometimes.
Joe: Uh, yeah, I mean I, there's stuff, there's obsessive thoughts that
are stuck in my head and I actually use, I've been using prayer actually
to overcome one of those, uh, which has been incredibly effective and
an atheist could say, oh well you're just rewiring your neural pathways.
Yeah.
I would say I'm asking them high power to help remove an obsessive thought from
my mind and finding that it's 80 percent.
Sam: If it works, it works.
Joe: That's what my therapist would probably say.
I mean, she said that she feels like when I came in three years ago, I
had small boy's fears and a small boy's mind in a lot of ways and that
I've matured in the last three years.
But what you said is really interesting is that if I haven't matured in the
previous month, I'm only referring to myself two weeks ago or whatever.
I'm not, it's very hard to access January 2020 Joe.
You know, so I don't, like, like you said, if I had journal entries,
I could probably go back and have a look and, um, it's, it's, you
know what I'm talking about though, it is, can be incredibly
subtle what therapy is doing,
-And a lot of men particularly will go and have two or three sessions, and I think
what happens is the therapist goes, this person's not going to open up, get And
they say to them, you know what, you're doing great, you don't need to come back.
And then they come back to me and they're like, I don't know why you
spent so long in and saw a therapist twice and they said I was fine.
And it's like, maybe the therapist could just tell you
weren't going to do the work.
Ali: Yeah.
Sam: I still say boo to that therapist though.
What they should be saying instead is, okay, mate, maybe
you don't understand what like.
Actually, no, the Sopranos is not a bad example in some ways, but you
know what that therapist should be saying in my unprofessional, but
nonetheless expert opinion, damn it.
I've earned the right to talk about this.
That therapist should be saying, this is more like a personal trainer.
Like the reason you've hired me is because you're unwilling or unable
to do this entirely by yourself.
People don't get a personal trainer so that the personal trainer can do the reps.
The personal trainer makes you do the reps.
So you don't seem to have understood you're coming here to do the reps.
Ali: I really love that metaphor.
Yeah.
Sam: Yeah.
And if you, yeah, if you don't want to do the reps, that's okay,
Ali: but don't don't expect results.
Sam: Don't fuck around.
Joe: Here's a question for you.
Yeah.
Is there a 40 year old who doesn't need therapy?
Uh, I, I, I would say no, no.
Sam: Yeah.
Joe: I would say you've had enough trauma.
Even if you don't have a mental illness, you've had enough shit go on, by the
40, and also you've got death looming.
Sam: You're at the halfway point, probably.
Joe: If you're lucky, if you're really lucky.
I think if you've
Ali: got, yeah, for, for, where was my train of thought with this?
Sorry.
Um.
Take your
Joe: time.
We'll cut it out, Ali, so you seem really switched on.
Always sharpen you up, mate.
So what, what did you say?
Is there a 40 year old who doesn't need therapy?
Ali: No, no, like I think you, It's in the same way that I see going to the doctors
regularly, going to the dentist regularly going to, you know, it's the brain
Sam: person that doesn't need to
go to a GP?
Ali: No, exactly.
Yeah.
It's a part of our body that has a huge part of, you know, like our brains
have a huge impact on our day to day.
You should keep on top of that in the same way that you would get your
car serviced, that you would get, you know, like a lot of responsibilities.
And I think mental health is just one of those things we need to add into that
needs to be maintained and updated and.
You know, and stay on top of,
Sam: yeah.
I mean, so I guess for me, it's like a, it's like a teeth cleaning.
It's a, it's a brushing the teeth.
It's like a, it's, it's a high frequency, uh, for other people.
And maybe it's like, you know, that super duper clean you get
every 12 months at the dentist.
But I would suggest, even if you don't take it up as a weekly thing,
um, some people even go twice weekly, God knows how they afford it, but
you may not need that, but I would definitely recommend like a good stint.
And then a break.
So like, don't go for less than six, seven sessions.
Yeah.
And
Joe: reality is in Australia, incredibly privileged, you can get
10 sessions basically for free.
And so, so, so people say it's too expensive.
It's like, well, it's not if you're an Australian citizen.
I'm not going to take the bait.
No.
Sam: But that's a rebate though.
So the thera what the therapist charges might be considerably in
excess of what that rebate is.
You get most of it back.
Joe: You're gonna get most of it back.
It's not, it's not, it's not a financial, it's not a
financial problem for the first.
10 sessions
Sam: also, you have to look at the savings that ultimately you're gonna
be experiencing some major financial savings because it's probably, it close
Joe: my mind that we, we do that here, but we do it, you know, we do do it.
And it's amazing.
So there's no financial reason really for most people not to get 10
sessions with a, with a therapist.
There's a stronger aversion and I'm mostly talking to men to going to therapy.
Yes.
So I guess what I want to lay down is concrete.
So, there's a lot of stuff Sam, like how do you know therapies working?
Like what have you done 10 years of it?
What have you got to show for it?
Well,
Sam: there were times when it wasn't, there were times when it wasn't working
and a good therapist will confront that and they'll get you through it.
And so it's like, I, you know, I've noticed a pattern in like the last three
sessions, you've done a lot of this.
And then right before we're about to finish up, you'll get started on the
thing you really want to talk about.
Here's, you know, here's your homework for next week.
Why don't you give a bit of thought to,
basically, you know, when you write the long email and then you delete
the top 90 percent and the last paragraph is the one you send.
Yeah.
Sometimes it's like that in therapy.
So you might have to do.
You might have to waste your time, in a sense, for three or four sessions until
you kind of start to clear away some of the rubble and you go, okay, let's get
to something that's a bit more central.
So this is why you have to make more than a three session commitment.
And also like I, I'm very sympathetic towards anybody,
but yeah, let's say blokes a lot of the time that are like that.
I said, I'm fine.
And I just walked out.
Like, I'm very sympathetic to that.
I'd love nothing better than to just have that confidence that I'm fine.
I'm no flies on me, mate.
Ali: I prefer to work these things out myself.
Yeah.
Good one.
I prefer to work them out myself.
How's that been working out for you?
Joe: Yeah, Bill Burr said therapy was bullshit and oh yeah, you go in and
just talk about the few big things that have happened and then you
don't, there's no need to keep going.
Sam: Uh, no, no, he does it.
No, he does it.
And well,
Joe: that's what I, I saw a video of him and this is a deep fake Sam.
Oh,
Sam: it might be an old one though.
No, no, no, no.
He's, he's, he started it a while ago and I'm pretty sure.
And more importantly though, like he quit drinking like four times and
then it's stuck on the last time.
And he does.
Two weekly, two weekly shows, which, I know he's on to three or four now,
where he's actually constantly examining himself, like you see it, and so like, uh.
So he's a not a, he's a bad example for the average person to follow because
this person is fearlessly self examining and has been that way for too long.
He
Ali: is.
Joe: But this show is, I don't know for you guys, for me, it's
incredibly therapeutic, but it's also not formal therapy.
It's not.
Uh, like you talk about the end of an email, I hit the end of a therapy session.
We're flying by the end.
By the time we get to 50 minutes, it's like.
Like, there's like fucking fireworks going off, you know, like there's so much
flowing out from my whole life and it's like, and that's the end of the session.
Sam: It's a bummer.
I was reading about the castration thing, the castration complex
or castration anxiety and where that really originally came from.
And it was Freud's observation that people always felt like they were
making the most progress right when the session had to end and that there
would be this fear and resentment
Joe: Make it weird and about balls though, didn't he?
Yeah, he did.
Sam: Isn't that Freud though?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
He's very genital focused man.
Like where's the balls coming.
And the bum and the bum as well, all about the bum.
But like, I think there's something in that that like you have to place
limits on things and it was his observation, we don't like that.
And that's actually part of the,
it's part of the essential functioning of the therapy is that there's a start
and end time and that you will get cut off and that you can't, you can't self
indulge endlessly and that you will always feel, um, although it seems
like Joe's going out on a high, but like, I always feel like, damn it.
There was more I could have done.
And then what that does is it focuses the mind on, well, what
is the more you could have done?
Joe: And then you focus for next week.
But like, yeah, I don't take drugs, but I
would love to do like, uh,
The an MD M D M A six hour therapy session.
Yeah, so M D M A first came about and this is how it's used now with That's right.
It was used clinically at first.
It's, it's used now with people with ptsd.
Ts
Sam: ptsd, TS d Yeah, I'm, I'm gonna sign up, could
Joe: handle like six to eight hour M D M A therapy session where I talk about my
relationship with my parents or whatever.
Sam: I wanna do the ketamine actually.
But yeah,
Joe: just take ketamine.
I can get you some.
Just fucking take it.
Something really weird will happen.
Time will stop working.
You'll feel like you literally spend eternity in there and then
you're like, time kicks back in.
You're like, oh my God.
I was in there for eternity and like my hand was giant and like
it's stressful as fuck, you know?
But you feel maybe good the next day.
Sam: I would, you have to get the exact right dose,
Joe: but yeah, you are not talking.
Can it mean you're not doing talking therapy?
Oh, no, no, I mean, I'm interested in doing both.
For MDMA, your emotions are protected and opened up, right?
So, but leaving with it, I would do seven hour caffeine therapy where I just drank
coffee and talked more and more and more and more and more with my therapist.
Like, there's no, I haven't found a limit to how much therapy I can do.
No.
I would, if I had the means.
And I'm a long way off this, I would go twice a week.
Yeah.
Go twice a day.
Sam: Twice a week.
I'd go
Joe: twice a week.
Yeah.
Where I'm at now in therapy at three years, it's now's the time
to go twice a week because I don't fucking waste time in there.
If I go into therapy and talk about the woman I went on a date with
last week, I'm wasting my time.
Yeah.
But if I go in there and be like, you know, in my household when I was 12 years
old, there was always this blah, blah.
It's like, she's never told me to talk about my childhood, because
she just sits there and doesn't say anything at all, and won't even, if
I say, G'day, how are you, she'll be like, doesn't matter how I am, Joe.
So
Sam: Yeah, we're here to talk about you, there's a tip from the top,
uh, yeah, if you're not entirely sure what to go in there and talk
about, just Just pick any significant childhood memory and start there.
Like it'll, it'll lead you somewhere.
Joe: Yeah, but they won't tell you to do that.
You can decide to talk about whatever you can go in and just talk about what
you have for breakfast if you want.
Yeah, it's your time.
It's your money.
Sam: Also, I think a lot of people hesitate to go to therapy because
they don't want to go in there and walk away hating their parents and
blaming their parents for everything.
It's actually the opposite of that.
Yes.
It's about letting go of blame and hate.
Yeah, it really is.
Ali: Oh, that's a good one, Sam.
forward.
Yeah, I've certainly experienced that with, when it comes to my
family and any resentments and things like, and being able to move
really positively forward with that.
Like that's, that's been huge
Joe: for me last week that she feels like we're, our relationship's so much
better since I've been going to therapy.
Sam: Yeah, it should be.
Yeah.
Joe: And I've processed a lot of stuff to do without my relationship with her.
And it's like,
You think that you're going to be prosecuting your parents in the, but
yeah, it's exactly what you just said.
I think.
Sam: Work on yourself, man.
That's it.
Yeah.
Joe: I think it's a big misconception.
And we also have the dead parents, Sam.
Sam: Yeah.
It seems especially unfair, doesn't it?
But it's like
Joe: they're sainted.
Yeah.
Right.
That's right.
The sainted dead parent.
But it's.
It's still worth looking at your relationship with them
Sam: and it's through like that exploration of...
You have
Ali: to, in fact.
Like yourself and then, you know, and seeing yourself as a complex and flawed
person and then seeing your parents as...
Sam: In the same light.
Ali: In the same light as complex and flawed people who made mistakes and
then, yeah, that understanding and forgiveness and going, okay, I know.
Yeah, this might've been a mistake and it's also acknowledging,
okay, this really hurt me.
I, my feelings are valid around that, but also similarly, they were doing the best
they could with what they had and you know, it wasn't a malicious, you know.
Thing.
It was just, you know, they've made a mistake and it doesn't
minimize the impact it's had on you.
But yeah, it gives you an understanding and like you said, a forgiveness
being able to move forward,
Joe: which is fundamental to growing up.
Yeah.
Yes, exactly.
That's actually what growing up is.
Yes.
Giving your parents, yeah.
Sam: Yes.
It's brilliant.
It's 90% of it, I reckon, and, and it because, and not to understate it, because
it's like, oh, well great, well fine.
I'll just forgive my parents.
Done.
It's like, eh, actually, yeah.
You haven't gone into it yet.
Yeah.
And yes, you might walk out of a session hating your mother or your
father, that's part of the work, but that's not going to, that wound is not
going to stay open and fester forever.
And another way to think about it is that wound was already there.
And then you, what you've had to, yeah.
Joe: You've been very clear that in hindsight, your parents
shouldn't have sent you to a martial Hare Krishna boarding school.
Yeah.
It was a big mistake.
The weirdo that you ended up becoming is.
Yeah, in large part due to the trauma of that time.
Sam: Yes, there's a lot of manure here that's turning into roses hopefully,
but the truth is it's and as much as like I've made So they fucked that up?
They did.
They fucked it up.
And as much as I've made interesting stories out of it, I've made, I've made
a meal out of it in the past, but this is something I've been wanting to share with
both of you actually that I've just, just last week, I think on Tuesday night, I
was going to get out some podcast work or something and then instead I picked up the
journal and the pen and, and then I went, no, I'm not going to do a journal entry.
I'm going to write about boarding school.
It was not such a conscious intention.
I just, I was finishing the dishes up and I was like, ah, the words
were coming to me, describing in a kind of flow of consciousness.
I was running around the temple in Melbourne and then I was like, and
then I get on the plane and then I'm at the other place and all the boys
are crying in the dormitory at night.
And I was like, ah, I really need to tell this story and I need to tell it properly
and not as an entertaining anecdote.
I need to get to the truth of it, which is that it was very painful and therapy has.
We've been doing more and more work on the boarding school thing
and less and less on other stuff.
So,
you know, when I first went into therapy, I thought it was about
more recent things, the death of my mother, the loss of this relationship.
My struggles to start a career.
And it's just, no, go back.
It's, oh, it's about the teenage years.
No, no, go back.
It's always, keep going back.
It's like, no, no, no, the wound is earlier.
All of this other stuff is just echoes.
And look, don't fall for the illusion of the one wound either, because
it's never quite that simple.
But so to stick to my point here, Adams helped me get back to the, and
it even goes back before the serious separation from the family at age six,
but there's things before that, but.
That's the big thing.
So finally I'm writing this story properly the other night and I, I was,
I felt, I felt like very emotional, but
I felt this great sense of fulfillment and satisfaction at the same time.
Right.
And that's what, that's the.
That's the best of what you'll get out of the therapeutic process, a feeling that
you're doing what you need to be doing.
And that something's been resolved.
Something's been resolved.
And you're that much closer to, well, and it may not always
feel like a complete resolution.
So that's the other thing you have to,
you might have to lower your expectations about what
Joe: it's going to feel like.
I asked my therapist last week, I said, can I resolve this stuff?
And she said, no, no, but you can carry it much more lightly than you have been.
We
Sam: have to carry these things lightly, Adam says.
I was going to say,
Joe: Ali, what...
How do you know that therapy is working for you?
Ali: Well, like even like this last week, um, I opened up to Joe about
some stuff that had happened to me when I was younger, which I'd always.
Historically, what one did not speak about at all, I couldn't even verbalize
it, I got to a point where I could start to verbalize it, but I would get myself
into such a state of extreme distress, like we're talking like throwing up,
crying, like it was really extreme.
And so I just, it became a thing like, I can't talk about
it, I can't talk about it.
And I know now over the years, like.
The last few years doing EMDR, doing like lots of trauma therapy, it's been,
I can now, it's not that there's still no emotion when I, I mean, I'd love
to get to a point where I don't have emotions attached to these memories
and I don't know that I ever will.
I said that to Joe, but a much more manageable thing that I could
discuss something that's happened to me in a way without getting, you
know, completely falling to pieces.
And that's because...
Joe: But without being detached from
Ali: it either.
Yeah, it's not detached from it because it's still very
hard and painful to talk about.
But, I haven't...
Yeah, I mean, I don't talk about that openly with many people at all.
Um, or at all, really, I mean, mainly in therapy, but yeah, just being able
to, you know, as my, and I, I did say to my therapist this week, I was
like, Oh, I was actually able to speak to a friend about, you know, some of
this stuff, like for the first time.
And he was just like, this is huge for you because there must've been a, there's
a level of trust and safety there with your friend that you can actually,
that information's not going to be.
Yeah.
Okay.
Weaponize or used to hurt you or any way and that you just felt safe enough
to be able to openly share What I think
Joe: that's the thing about friends who are all doing therapy Which is us on this
podcast is that you shared that with me.
It was horrific Maybe one of the worst things I've ever heard from someone I
know but and then it stayed with me for a couple of days and disturbed me but
because I'm doing therapy That's okay Because I got my own shit floating around
and it's always kind of disturbing me.
Focus on someone else's.
So, well I was actually able to hold Ali's stuff, like because
I have a process and I've got a person that I talk to and I like, it
gives me capacity to take on adult
Sam: stuff.
I think you're ready for a relationship after all, Joe.
Because
Ali: it's, it's interesting, like, I've always been very much...
It's not with Ali.
It's a
Sam: wonderful thing you two have got, don't mess it up.
Um,
Ali: yeah, but like being able to share, yeah, sharing that information
and knowing that yeah, it is.
Yeah, I don't want to expose anyone to any sort of vicarious trauma.
It's quite, it's quite, it's not a, like, yeah.
And feeling comfortable that, yeah, Joe would be able to like, to handle it.
And him also reassuring me that you can tell me or that,
yeah, I can, I can handle it.
And, and knowing that, okay, he's, you know.
Yeah, he's not going to take this on personally.
He might think about it and think, you know, might have to process
Joe: it.
I just get really curious as to like why people are the way they are.
Yeah, and until they explain to me their trauma.
Yeah, it's very, it just becomes, if you get close enough with a
person, there's a certain point where the stuff that's hidden behind
Yeah, the black wall or whatever.
You need to know that stuff because it's hinted at all the time.
Completely agree.
And...
Once you know the extent of it,
Sam: It's so much easier to forgive that person for
Ali: things.
Or just an understanding of like, oh, I can understand why they're
behaving the way they are now.
It is, it's that understanding of like, why on earth would that person do that?
But in the context of, well, they've experienced all these
things and this is the patterns of behavior that are a result of that.
Oh, that makes
Joe: sense.
And the, the, the, the part, the, the way that I didn't like to get that
information was working on a psych ward.
You could look up people's file, and you could see what their trauma was, as in
the criminal stuff, or stuff that had happened to them, and I used to never
look up patients files, because I only ever wanted them to tell me, as a peer
support worker, what they wanted to tell me, and not be defined by it was Whatever
horrible things that happen to them.
Whereas a lot of the clinicians would look at them as defined by whatever
horrible things that happen to
Sam: them.
And the same thing often happens in education.
Yeah.
Ali: Yeah, because it's yeah You're looking at it through the lens of okay
Well, these these traumatic events have potentially created a series of
personality disorders or like diagnosable things And so I mean from a clinical point
of view that they would need to know that information Whereas your role as a peer
support worker is different in that you don't have to have that lens clouding,
what you're providing to that person.
Joe: But the wonderful thing about my therapist, and I would broaden it
out to say about psychoanalysis, and she's a Lacanian trained psychoanalyst,
also a clinical, clinical psych who's worked in hospitals, and maybe
still does, because she's mysterious, doesn't tell me anything, but like,
The refreshing thing about her, I had psychologists in the past who kind
of gave me a bit of a pat on the back and said, Oh, you're not doing so bad.
Oh, we all worry about stuff like that.
Don't worry about it.
You're doing good.
Um, I think the right lady will come along and think you're just great and
like nice older lady therapists, you know?
Yeah.
And my current therapist is an older lady therapist, but she...
Looked at me, and she wasn't, it's the same thing.
She didn't just, a psychiatrist looks at me and says, he has bipolar.
Yeah.
Which is a genetic thing, which is a brain chemical thing, which
I'm gonna give him medication for.
Yeah.
And I don't really care about his childhood or his past relationships,
I'm just gonna give him these pills, that'll be 600, and the last psychiatrist
I saw said, take these two things for the rest of your life and don't
come back, get on with your life.
And I was, I, look and I've stuck to that and he was right.
But that's, that's, it's, it's a bit more like going to see a mechanic or
something, you know, it's like, you
Ali: can't, They're not so much interested in the reason why, they just know how to,
Sam: Whereas
Joe: Peter was willing to step right back and be like, I don't even
care about your bipolar diagnosis.
I'm not going to...
It's neither here nor there for me.
It's neither here nor there.
Let's work out why you are the way you are.
And if some of that involves some bipolarity, she almost approaches
it like a literary device.
Like she was talking to me the other day about two tracks of thought, my father and
my mother, and they're on separate tracks.
And she's like, that's a very bipolar way of looking at it, isn't it?
But they're gonna have to converge, because they're not actually
separate, the way that you've laid them out in your mind.
So she'll use the bipolar thing as a mechanism, but it's almost like a
literary mechanism to open up a story.
She...
Creates the strongest impression that she thinks my bipolar comes
from what happened to me as a child.
It's not just something I was born with that was triggered by some marijuana use,
which is what a psychiatrist would say.
Yes.
And she does these little smiles when I mention, you know, a psychiatrist.
I wouldn't say that, and they just go,
Sam: hmm.
Ali: Therapists, they I mean, there's a lot of evidence with bipolar that
there's obviously a genetic component.
There's a genetic factor, but it's actually a traumatic
event, not necessarily drug use.
It's actually trauma that then triggers it into becoming, to be expressing
those traits as genetic traits.
25
Sam: years since, 30 years since Dolly the sheep or whatever, and we still don't.
Have strong genetic correlates for a lot of mental illness.
Like it's really pretty poor, but it suggests that nurture
is playing a huge role here.
Joe: I would suggest Sam, I'm going to do a Sam impersonation.
Yeah.
Right.
You ready?
Yeah.
To any bipolar people out there, I would suggest you have both a
psychiatrist and a psychologist.
Yes.
Now the psychiatrist will keep you functioning in capitalism and paying
your bills and rent or mortgage.
That's true.
'cause they'll medicate you correctly.
Yep.
So that you can be functioning, be functional, functioning.
Yeah.
Psych, minimize side effects might actually help you work
out why you have so much pain.
Yes.
And drama in your life.
And you might actually overcome a lot of this stuff.
Yes.
So there you go, Sam.
I did a bit of advice to the listeners.
I try not to give advice.
It's exactly
Sam: what I would say though.
Yeah.
I think, no, I think, I think it was a fair impression.
It was very complimentary to me.
Thank you.
Joe: I think it's because you're a teacher.
You're quite comfortable just being like, I think you should try this.
It's more than comfortable.
I get very uncomfortable trying to suggest to anyone that they should.
Sam: It is.
It's not just comfort.
It's a, it's a goddamn awful habit that I have, yes, of being
didactic, Joe, I do apologize, but so
to return to the subjective experience of existence, um, one of the ways I can tell
I'm making progress is ironically that,
that I'm containing things more, that I don't feel the need to tell
this big old story to someone.
It's like, Oh no, no, no.
I'm doing that work.
Yeah.
I'm processing it.
And I'm not saying we should do our therapy and clam up and
never bother anyone else with it.
But one of the, one of the problems I had was still working on, obviously,
was poor boundaries and like not containing and holding enough stuff.
And so getting, so that's just one way to measure it.
For other people, they're containing and holding too much and the measure
will be they are sharing more.
But
Joe: it sounds corny, but it's as simple as, tell me if I'm wrong.
Yeah.
It was horrible.
Yes.
But you left the boarding school?
Yes.
You're never going back there?
No.
And it's like, that's in the past now, Sam.
You're never going back there again, Sam.
And it's like, some of this stuff we're walking around, I can't, a psychologist
might be able to explain why you are certain ways because of those
childhood boarding school experiences.
And why are you in the world trying to use the most words and get the
most attention or whatever, right?
Sam: Well, it's not hard to see, yeah.
Joe: I struggle to see some of that stuff.
That's why I wouldn't be a very good therapist.
But I can understand from doing therapy that they're gonna...
The part of the job for you is to close the door for one last time on
that boarding school and really feel in your body that you're now safe
and you're not being trained to be a paramilitary Hare Krishna kid, you know?
That's right.
Only you can do that.
The therapist can't do it.
I can't do it.
Ali: They can say it.
Like they can suggest like, yeah.
They can't say it in the first session.
Not in the first session.
No.
They've got to hear you
Joe: for
Ali: years.
You've got to, yeah, you've got to really feel it.
And then like, yeah, they can direct you towards you are safe now.
I certainly have had my psychologist tell me, yes, but like if I'm, you
know, talking about a perceived threat, yeah, but you're safe now you're
here in an, in a very grounding way.
It's like you're in this room with me.
You are safe now.
Even though this person, you know.
He's not here anymore or whatever, you know, you are safe right in this moment.
Sometimes I actually just really need that grounding in that moment.
And he's very good at that and picking the time and place to do that.
Yeah,
Sam: that's right.
They have, they have to avoid editorializing as much as possible,
but, but it's like, for example, to hear from Adam was very affirming,
you know, recently he just, he really didn't want to say it, but he kind
of eventually felt the need to do it.
That C.
You are a competent pair of hands.
You, other people can trust you.
You can trust yourself.
You
Joe: don't get that out of them easily.
Sam: No, no, no.
I get quite a bit
Ali: of that.
Joe: Like yours is a much more of a booster than mine and Sam's.
Cause you're not doing psychoanalysis,
Ali: are you?
Oh, no, there's, that's, there's an element of that, but it's
more, but he definitely does.
Cause so much of mine is self doubt and, you know, and criticism and,
you know, imperfectionism and where, and he's, you know, sometimes I just
objectively need somebody to take a step back and go, here is the evidence.
Yeah.
No, like when I'm going on about something that I've done wrong or fucked
up or whatever, he's like, yeah, but you've got to show me the evidence.
Show me the evidence where you have such this, this narrative of.
You know, and so he makes me argue it out with myself, like, why am I,
why have I, you know, is, you know, Ali, this horrible piece of shit?
She's not like, you know, but I have to argue it out to get to that point.
And that's how I process things.
And that works really effectively for me.
Sam: It sounds like a very workable method for the particular
circumstances you're dealing with.
Whereas I couldn't even, I found it very hard to access the self blame at all.
Like it took, it took a long, well, I mean, no, it would come and go,
but it was, it was often neurotic and kind of too much in the self pity
area and not enough in the truth area.
So it's like actually getting to a point where you were willing to say
that where I was willing to say in therapy, no, I am a piece of shit that
I, you know, and I've let everyone down.
It's like, actually that took a bit of work to actually get there.
And, and it was a necessary, like, um, cause it's not a true
statement either, but it's like.
Whereas a lot of women will go straight in with that.
Ali: Yeah.
Like, yeah, that's, that's my default.
Like program is okay.
What have I done wrong?
How have I fucked this up?
You know, like, yeah, yeah.
How can I make this right?
Yeah.
That's the default.
That's not the resolution.
The default is that.
And so it's then actually, okay, well.
Is that really RA based in any sort of rational That's right.
You know, thought process and it's, it's not, most of the time it's not.
No, it's never, yeah.
And, and
Sam: adjusting the, you know, like I, I heard a Jungian say on a podcast that,
you know, Jungians will put a lot of work into deconstruction and they tend
to see that as their main or even only priority a lot of the time And you got
to remember that some of the Jung's original patients a lot like Freud's
middle class women who badly needed Deconstructing they were too constructed.
They were too put together.
Their identity was Far too defined and all of their roles and relations
to others was all, in other words, they were living in a, a corset.
Yeah.
If you were, and it needed to be deconstructed and pulled apart.
But let's say someone else comes in, they're a, they're an, they're an addict.
They're sleeping on couches.
They're this, they're that, that person does not need deconstruction.
They need construction.
Yeah.
And it's like, ah, okay.
So having a really important realization early on.
Uh, no, five years into therapy that I came across this information that was
like, Oh, different people are going to need different things in therapy.
It should have been obvious to me and, but you know, so, yeah, and I think, I
Joe: think we should wrap it up, but I think it comes down to what
I would call the final level boss.
Yeah.
So I'm, when I met my therapist, I was 40 full of fear and
The last thing I needed was another pat on the back.
Yeah, there's a huge back,
Sam: there's a back pat trend at the moment.
I wanted to say this Joe, I nearly, nearly got to it earlier.
I keep coming across references to the pat on the back in therapy, and
I think, yeah, there might be too much of that going on at the moment.
I had those
Joe: therapists in my 20s and 30s.
Um, all women, like, you're doing okay.
You've got it.
Isn't it hard?
You've got bipolar.
Yeah.
And I just sat down.
How do
Ali: you feel about that?
And I'm like, I know I feel like shit.
I just want someone to practically tell me how to live my life.
That was my huge argument for, yeah, with why I didn't think historically
that therapy worked for me.
I knew what had happened.
Sam: Don't tell me it's okay.
I'm being a disaster.
I don't want to be a disaster.
Yeah.
It's
Ali: more the day to day.
I'm really struggling with it.
So I know all the, I can rationalize.
It's everything horrible thing that I can understand very quickly.
Okay.
Yeah.
This, this came from my childhood.
This pattern of behavior has developed from that.
I can put those bits and pieces together quickly.
And as my psychologist would say, almost too quickly to my detriment,
Sam: I was struggling Yeah.
So
Ali: whereas I can put it all together and have the
understanding of it really quickly.
It's just, it doesn't translate into really functional behaviors as an adult.
Joe: Intellectualized feelings.
I can't feel them.
Mm.
So I can turn them into words.
Yeah.
I do this, I'll do it on this show a lot, but I don't feel anything.
That's right.
That's a tough one.
But yeah, I'll, yeah, I'll finish up.
But like the final level boss concept for me and with me and Peter is, You
finally get into the room and you sit down and you say, Hi, how are you?
And she says, it doesn't matter how I am, Joe.
And then sits there and just stares at you.
And she's got this real intensity about her.
And then there's an uncomfortable silence and it's like, Oh, so
what do I need to talk about?
Nothing.
Uncomfortable silence and just waits, but intense, like incredibly intense eyes.
And it's a nice environment, and you're in a nice part of town, and you're sitting
on a nice chair, and then it's just like, your brain, all the social mores are gone.
That's right.
We don't need to be polite.
You're never going to find out, is she married?
Does she have kids?
Is she a lesbian?
Like, I'm never...
I will never in this environment have to ask you a single question about
your own life or try and make sure the conversation flows two ways.
This is not a two way conversation.
This is an exploration and it's like, all right, so why am I so scared about
This, you know, and, and we get into it and three years later, I, I just do
not walk around with as much, as much, I've talked about my anxieties a lot
on this show, and some of that is my coping mechanism, which is I turn it
into a Woody Allen esque neurotic humor.
Yeah.
Yeah, right.
Sam: Picaresque
Joe: escapades.
But what I'm actually feeling in my chest and my gut is a lot less fear and that's
partly my addiction recovery work And it's partly the work that I've done in
therapy and now finally three years later I can get into stuff from my adolescence
That is the fundamental, like, I finally hit pay dirt three years in, you know,
so that's how I know therapy is working.
Um, I'm finally talking about the shit that I really needed to talk about,
but I took me three years to get there.
Yeah,
Sam: I'll finish on that.
Yeah, makes a lot of sense to me.
Go on Ali.
I was
Ali: gonna say three years is about the mark, like I went in
after my hospitalization and I was like Very optimistically,
I'll get this done in six months.
Right.
And my psychologist laughed at me.
And he's just, he's like, he's like, well, look, you can be as diligent
as you like, but you know, that's, that's pretty, that's optimistic.
He goes, I'm not saying it can't be done, but like, you know,
and I said, well, how long?
Like, you know, I don't want to be doing this for like 20 years.
And he said, three years.
He's like three years, you'll see the, so I'm a, I'm sort of at the
two and a half year mark now, so I'm huge difference almost there.
Not quite,
Sam: but almost.
So final thought.
Yeah, man.
Uh, look, I, I wish someone had said it's gonna take more than three years.
You know, I think I needed to hear that at an earlier point.
Um, but I think honestly, my therapist might have had
higher expectations than that.
But I think I proved to be a very tough case and that I managed to, uh, I'm not
saying that like that, The therapeutic challenges themselves were necessarily
more difficult, but I think I was very good at obstructing the work, and very
good at avoiding it, and that it took Adam a long time to, for example, one day say,
You know Sam, I think you were, did one of the rare editorials, you know,
and it really goes in when he does it, you know, I think you um, I think
you were befuddled and exasperated.
by the world and adults most of the time and I think ever since you have
been exasperating and befuddling others including me and you can keep doing
that but I don't think you want to and I think you've exasperated every one
of your partners you've exasperated your friends you've exasperated your
employers yes yes yes and then when I came across ADD ASD, it was like, this
is why you're exasperating everyone.
Well, yes, but no, there's other reasons.
And one of the most remarkable findings in this process has been, if you'd have
asked me at the start, am I persuaded by the idea that childhood of events
will, you know, impact adulthood?
I'd have said, of course, you know, but I don't know actually how convinced I was.
And honestly, I think I've been resisting the conclusion.
I've, I've ended up many times just continually coming back to this.
To this illusion that like, it's all happening in the present.
And that the self is like much the same from moment to moment and I think we
stubbornly, a lot of people, myself clearly more than most, stubbornly
hold on to this idea of the integrity of the self and that, you know, this
illusion of the separate self, you know, cling, I cling to it as well as being
very attracted to getting rid of it.
That's most humans.
Most humans and the ego is so strong, you know, the determination to
craft it and shape it and own it.
Um, and you know, Thank you.
I think that's gotten in the way of doing the work, honestly, and it's taken a long
time to go, No, no, no, these childhood events, greatly impacting the present, but
actually recognising that I'm a different person then, and then, and then, and
then, has been incredibly difficult to do.
Recognising that I can change, recognising that, that I wanted to change.
So, that's the really, the most helpful stuff I can offer, I think, to others.
You, you probably do want to change.
You might be struggling to believe it's possible, but I'll, I'm here
to tell you, no, it not only is it possible, it's inevitable that you're
going to change one way or the other.
Let's try and craft that in a positive direction as far as we can.
And, and,
but also, um, I've got a very unaspirational statement to offer as
well though, which is that the end result of therapy may be to accept
ordinary human unhappiness, which was.
What was said so long.
That's all I want, Sam.
Joe: Yeah.
I mean, I keep saying, we'll finish on this.
Yeah.
But, uh, look, the childhood stuff.
Yeah.
It's a cliche.
We spoke about it in my last session.
Yeah.
It's a cliche for a reason.
It is.
And the one thing I learned in addiction recovery, things are cliches for a reason.
Sam: And the same themes keep occurring in that work.
Joe: There's a reason I don't pick up a drink one day at a time.
Now that's a cliché, there's a, it's incredibly helpful for
me to remember that one cliché.
That's right.
Uh, and in Diction Recovery there's hundreds of them.
In therapy the one big cliché is it's all about your childhood or
it's all about blaming your parents.
Yes.
But each individual's journey, just remember that you're going to start
in good self analysis with a blank screen and no one's ever going to
tell you to talk about anything.
And if you end up in your childhood, it's because you realize that the
other stuff was a distraction.
Sam: Yes.
That's right.
And please, if, if, yeah, anyone's listening, going to therapy next, just,
yeah, get into some childhood stuff.
You know, like there was a thing that I'd be wanting to tell Adam
and I'd told my, and I've been putting it off for weeks, right?
And I told myself, Oh, this thing's just a little curiosity that he
might be interested in, right?
I, look, here's a little curio, a little knick knack I found, a little
object for your mantel shelf, Adam.
You know, this will be of interest to you as a professional.
And then that one little thing was the entire 50 minutes
and it was a hell of a ride.
And I was like, Oh, okay.
What an odd little story to tell yourself.
Yeah.
That like, oh, uh, this is for your amusement and dilatation, Adam.
I'm sure you'll enjoy this little thing.
And it's like, no, no.
You
Joe: dunno what that was for you.
Yeah.
You dunno what the citizen Kane Rosebud sleigh is, but you probably have got one.
Yeah.
Right.
Alright, let's finish up.
Yep.
See you guys.
See you next week.
See you.
Love your work.
Sam: See you.
Bye
Joe: Bye.
Bye.