WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.299 Joe: There's reality, which is loving awareness, 00:00:02.379 --> 00:00:05.610 Sam: unconcerned by the arising and passing away of phenomena. 00:00:05.910 --> 00:00:07.360 Ali: And then there are the 10, 000 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:07.760 things. 00:00:17.525 --> 00:00:19.035 Sam: Welcome to the 10, 000 things. 00:00:19.235 --> 00:00:20.345 My name is Sam Ellis. 00:00:20.805 --> 00:00:21.465 Joe: I'm Joe Loh. 00:00:21.605 --> 00:00:22.605 Ali: And I'm Ali Catramados. 00:00:23.025 --> 00:00:27.125 Joe: Today on the show, how do we know if therapy is working? 00:00:27.425 --> 00:00:28.895 Uh, I propose this topic. 00:00:29.345 --> 00:00:33.435 I've been doing a lot of work in the last three years in psychoanalysis. 00:00:33.815 --> 00:00:38.285 And sometimes as I speak, to my psychoanalyst about, it's a 00:00:38.285 --> 00:00:40.818 bit, unclear if it's working. 00:00:42.185 --> 00:00:46.383 Ali, Sam, also both in therapy, uh, what are your thoughts? 00:00:46.497 --> 00:00:47.287 Sam: I think 00:00:47.457 --> 00:00:52.167 Sometimes it's impossible to tell and other times you really feel like 00:00:52.167 --> 00:00:53.957 you've just aced it and you walk out. 00:00:54.637 --> 00:00:56.847 Going, Oh, mate, I'm cured. 00:00:57.007 --> 00:00:57.567 I'm there. 00:00:58.037 --> 00:00:58.437 Joe: Oh, no. 00:00:58.437 --> 00:01:04.577 See, I always feel good afterwards, but what's not clear is what's changing. 00:01:04.737 --> 00:01:05.227 Ali: Hmm. 00:01:05.707 --> 00:01:09.467 I have like, so I'm like, Sam, sometimes I come out and it's like, Oh, I 00:01:09.777 --> 00:01:11.587 really feel, you know, like positive. 00:01:11.587 --> 00:01:13.527 And then sometimes it's not so clear, 00:01:13.957 --> 00:01:19.257 but anytime I have doubt and I say that to my psychologist, he always says, yes, 00:01:19.257 --> 00:01:21.177 but look, you can't compare yourself. 00:01:21.697 --> 00:01:25.097 To like what you're thinking of feeling you should be, he goes, 00:01:25.097 --> 00:01:29.017 look at yourself six months ago, 12 months ago, two years ago. 00:01:29.347 --> 00:01:32.877 And that's where I can say, actually, hang on, this is really working because 00:01:33.197 --> 00:01:34.677 I've made very different decisions. 00:01:34.797 --> 00:01:36.107 I've made better choices. 00:01:36.414 --> 00:01:38.564 it might not still have the outcome that I want, but it's better than 00:01:38.674 --> 00:01:40.634 what historically I would have done. 00:01:41.234 --> 00:01:44.134 So I can definitely see it in the big scheme of things. 00:01:44.284 --> 00:01:45.134 Sam: Yeah, that's right. 00:01:46.414 --> 00:01:50.166 If you're trying to measure progress against some sort of ideal image 00:01:50.166 --> 00:01:54.176 of the self that's gonna be, you're not gonna see it that much of it. 00:01:54.356 --> 00:01:58.376 You might see some, um, and yeah, it might be good to have high aspirations and high 00:01:58.376 --> 00:02:03.666 expectations of yourself sometimes, but if you are, one of the big problems with 00:02:03.666 --> 00:02:06.546 the human mind is that it's very good at, 00:02:06.556 --> 00:02:12.387 healing over the scars of its own changes that it's had to make over time. 00:02:12.387 --> 00:02:14.727 So neuroplasticity, which is like good news. 00:02:16.037 --> 00:02:22.142 One thing that can happen is you forget how fucked up you were and you are unable, 00:02:23.642 --> 00:02:28.882 you're unable to appreciate the progress you've made until you are reminded of it. 00:02:28.892 --> 00:02:32.092 Maybe there's an audio recording or a video recording of yourself at a 00:02:32.092 --> 00:02:36.672 certain point, or you see an old photo or just whatever it is that you realize, 00:02:36.722 --> 00:02:39.042 Oh, I actually have come a long way. 00:02:39.912 --> 00:02:42.352 So holding onto that, journal entries are really good. 00:02:42.982 --> 00:02:47.447 Like I don't have very many, but I occasionally stumble across 00:02:47.687 --> 00:02:50.597 something, you know, I wrote scribbled down 15 years ago, and I'm like, 00:02:52.677 --> 00:02:54.207 Joe: I've done it every day since March. 00:02:54.267 --> 00:02:54.567 Sam: Yeah. 00:02:55.607 --> 00:02:56.057 So yeah. 00:02:56.097 --> 00:02:57.027 Can you, can you say 00:02:57.027 --> 00:02:59.237 Joe: like, I had to look back the other day, actually, I'm 00:02:59.237 --> 00:03:00.317 a bit scared to look back. 00:03:00.337 --> 00:03:00.817 Sam: Yeah. 00:03:00.867 --> 00:03:01.017 It is. 00:03:01.017 --> 00:03:01.707 It's horrifying sometimes. 00:03:05.487 --> 00:03:09.297 Joe: Uh, yeah, I mean I, there's stuff, there's obsessive thoughts that 00:03:09.297 --> 00:03:14.807 are stuck in my head and I actually use, I've been using prayer actually 00:03:14.847 --> 00:03:20.537 to overcome one of those, uh, which has been incredibly effective and 00:03:20.537 --> 00:03:24.887 an atheist could say, oh well you're just rewiring your neural pathways. 00:03:25.047 --> 00:03:25.277 Yeah. 00:03:25.457 --> 00:03:30.027 I would say I'm asking them high power to help remove an obsessive thought from 00:03:30.027 --> 00:03:32.707 my mind and finding that it's 80 percent. 00:03:34.392 --> 00:03:35.112 Sam: If it works, it works. 00:03:35.892 --> 00:03:37.512 Joe: That's what my therapist would probably say. 00:03:37.572 --> 00:03:43.432 I mean, she said that she feels like when I came in three years ago, I 00:03:43.442 --> 00:03:50.042 had small boy's fears and a small boy's mind in a lot of ways and that 00:03:50.122 --> 00:03:52.312 I've matured in the last three years. 00:03:52.562 --> 00:03:55.932 But what you said is really interesting is that if I haven't matured in the 00:03:56.702 --> 00:04:01.132 previous month, I'm only referring to myself two weeks ago or whatever. 00:04:01.142 --> 00:04:05.232 I'm not, it's very hard to access January 2020 Joe. 00:04:05.837 --> 00:04:09.097 You know, so I don't, like, like you said, if I had journal entries, 00:04:09.097 --> 00:04:13.477 I could probably go back and have a look and, um, it's, it's, you 00:04:13.477 --> 00:04:16.117 know what I'm talking about though, it is, can be incredibly 00:04:16.117 --> 00:04:17.917 subtle what therapy is doing, 00:04:18.102 --> 00:04:23.752 -And a lot of men particularly will go and have two or three sessions, and I think 00:04:23.752 --> 00:04:28.192 what happens is the therapist goes, this person's not going to open up, get And 00:04:28.192 --> 00:04:31.252 they say to them, you know what, you're doing great, you don't need to come back. 00:04:31.852 --> 00:04:33.582 And then they come back to me and they're like, I don't know why you 00:04:33.582 --> 00:04:36.912 spent so long in and saw a therapist twice and they said I was fine. 00:04:37.762 --> 00:04:40.252 And it's like, maybe the therapist could just tell you 00:04:40.252 --> 00:04:41.162 weren't going to do the work. 00:04:41.162 --> 00:04:41.452 Ali: Yeah. 00:04:42.282 --> 00:04:44.472 Sam: I still say boo to that therapist though. 00:04:44.472 --> 00:04:48.642 What they should be saying instead is, okay, mate, maybe 00:04:48.652 --> 00:04:50.082 you don't understand what like. 00:04:56.527 --> 00:05:01.327 Actually, no, the Sopranos is not a bad example in some ways, but you 00:05:01.327 --> 00:05:04.617 know what that therapist should be saying in my unprofessional, but 00:05:04.837 --> 00:05:07.337 nonetheless expert opinion, damn it. 00:05:07.617 --> 00:05:09.037 I've earned the right to talk about this. 00:05:10.947 --> 00:05:14.337 That therapist should be saying, this is more like a personal trainer. 00:05:14.837 --> 00:05:19.337 Like the reason you've hired me is because you're unwilling or unable 00:05:19.337 --> 00:05:21.377 to do this entirely by yourself. 00:05:22.437 --> 00:05:25.817 People don't get a personal trainer so that the personal trainer can do the reps. 00:05:26.547 --> 00:05:29.107 The personal trainer makes you do the reps. 00:05:29.457 --> 00:05:33.017 So you don't seem to have understood you're coming here to do the reps. 00:05:33.107 --> 00:05:34.217 Ali: I really love that metaphor. 00:05:34.307 --> 00:05:34.587 Yeah. 00:05:34.827 --> 00:05:35.097 Sam: Yeah. 00:05:35.157 --> 00:05:38.337 And if you, yeah, if you don't want to do the reps, that's okay, 00:05:38.667 --> 00:05:39.967 Ali: but don't don't expect results. 00:05:39.977 --> 00:05:40.747 Sam: Don't fuck around. 00:05:40.857 --> 00:05:41.867 Joe: Here's a question for you. 00:05:41.917 --> 00:05:42.247 Yeah. 00:05:42.357 --> 00:05:44.387 Is there a 40 year old who doesn't need therapy? 00:05:46.147 --> 00:05:48.437 Uh, I, I, I would say no, no. 00:05:48.487 --> 00:05:48.737 Sam: Yeah. 00:05:48.807 --> 00:05:50.767 Joe: I would say you've had enough trauma. 00:05:51.202 --> 00:05:54.442 Even if you don't have a mental illness, you've had enough shit go on, by the 00:05:54.482 --> 00:05:58.332 40, and also you've got death looming. 00:05:58.352 --> 00:06:00.022 Sam: You're at the halfway point, probably. 00:06:00.022 --> 00:06:02.002 Joe: If you're lucky, if you're really lucky. 00:06:02.222 --> 00:06:02.752 I think if you've 00:06:02.752 --> 00:06:07.462 Ali: got, yeah, for, for, where was my train of thought with this? 00:06:07.552 --> 00:06:08.052 Sorry. 00:06:08.222 --> 00:06:08.652 Um. 00:06:08.682 --> 00:06:08.952 Take your 00:06:08.952 --> 00:06:09.232 Joe: time. 00:06:09.342 --> 00:06:11.672 We'll cut it out, Ali, so you seem really switched on. 00:06:13.612 --> 00:06:15.002 Always sharpen you up, mate. 00:06:15.342 --> 00:06:16.792 So what, what did you say? 00:06:17.462 --> 00:06:19.352 Is there a 40 year old who doesn't need therapy? 00:06:19.592 --> 00:06:24.777 Ali: No, no, like I think you, It's in the same way that I see going to the doctors 00:06:24.797 --> 00:06:29.197 regularly, going to the dentist regularly going to, you know, it's the brain 00:06:29.237 --> 00:06:30.197 Sam: person that doesn't need to 00:06:31.307 --> 00:06:31.417 go to a GP? 00:06:31.417 --> 00:06:31.727 Ali: No, exactly. 00:06:31.727 --> 00:06:31.927 Yeah. 00:06:31.927 --> 00:06:34.987 It's a part of our body that has a huge part of, you know, like our brains 00:06:34.987 --> 00:06:37.047 have a huge impact on our day to day. 00:06:37.267 --> 00:06:40.047 You should keep on top of that in the same way that you would get your 00:06:40.047 --> 00:06:43.557 car serviced, that you would get, you know, like a lot of responsibilities. 00:06:43.557 --> 00:06:46.557 And I think mental health is just one of those things we need to add into that 00:06:46.667 --> 00:06:48.597 needs to be maintained and updated and. 00:06:49.027 --> 00:06:50.527 You know, and stay on top of, 00:06:50.617 --> 00:06:50.887 Sam: yeah. 00:06:50.887 --> 00:06:53.697 I mean, so I guess for me, it's like a, it's like a teeth cleaning. 00:06:53.697 --> 00:06:54.877 It's a, it's a brushing the teeth. 00:06:54.947 --> 00:06:58.047 It's like a, it's, it's a high frequency, uh, for other people. 00:06:58.047 --> 00:07:02.057 And maybe it's like, you know, that super duper clean you get 00:07:02.347 --> 00:07:03.777 every 12 months at the dentist. 00:07:03.797 --> 00:07:07.977 But I would suggest, even if you don't take it up as a weekly thing, 00:07:08.167 --> 00:07:12.947 um, some people even go twice weekly, God knows how they afford it, but 00:07:14.007 --> 00:07:18.057 you may not need that, but I would definitely recommend like a good stint. 00:07:18.847 --> 00:07:19.697 And then a break. 00:07:19.707 --> 00:07:23.747 So like, don't go for less than six, seven sessions. 00:07:23.757 --> 00:07:24.027 Yeah. 00:07:24.317 --> 00:07:24.547 And 00:07:24.867 --> 00:07:28.097 Joe: reality is in Australia, incredibly privileged, you can get 00:07:28.097 --> 00:07:29.737 10 sessions basically for free. 00:07:30.517 --> 00:07:33.067 And so, so, so people say it's too expensive. 00:07:33.067 --> 00:07:35.057 It's like, well, it's not if you're an Australian citizen. 00:07:35.117 --> 00:07:36.187 I'm not going to take the bait. 00:07:36.847 --> 00:07:37.087 No. 00:07:38.177 --> 00:07:39.407 Sam: But that's a rebate though. 00:07:39.852 --> 00:07:43.312 So the thera what the therapist charges might be considerably in 00:07:43.312 --> 00:07:44.817 excess of what that rebate is. 00:07:44.817 --> 00:07:45.882 You get most of it back. 00:07:45.922 --> 00:07:46.732 Joe: You're gonna get most of it back. 00:07:47.002 --> 00:07:49.712 It's not, it's not, it's not a financial, it's not a 00:07:49.712 --> 00:07:51.182 financial problem for the first. 00:07:51.577 --> 00:07:52.357 10 sessions 00:07:52.387 --> 00:07:54.967 Sam: also, you have to look at the savings that ultimately you're gonna 00:07:54.967 --> 00:07:58.327 be experiencing some major financial savings because it's probably, it close 00:07:58.327 --> 00:08:01.597 Joe: my mind that we, we do that here, but we do it, you know, we do do it. 00:08:01.597 --> 00:08:02.317 And it's amazing. 00:08:02.317 --> 00:08:05.497 So there's no financial reason really for most people not to get 10 00:08:05.497 --> 00:08:07.647 sessions with a, with a therapist. 00:08:08.427 --> 00:08:13.147 There's a stronger aversion and I'm mostly talking to men to going to therapy. 00:08:13.177 --> 00:08:13.537 Yes. 00:08:13.627 --> 00:08:16.027 So I guess what I want to lay down is concrete. 00:08:16.057 --> 00:08:19.347 So, there's a lot of stuff Sam, like how do you know therapies working? 00:08:19.347 --> 00:08:20.977 Like what have you done 10 years of it? 00:08:21.617 --> 00:08:22.867 What have you got to show for it? 00:08:22.887 --> 00:08:23.017 Well, 00:08:23.017 --> 00:08:25.327 Sam: there were times when it wasn't, there were times when it wasn't working 00:08:25.947 --> 00:08:31.147 and a good therapist will confront that and they'll get you through it. 00:08:31.357 --> 00:08:35.517 And so it's like, I, you know, I've noticed a pattern in like the last three 00:08:35.517 --> 00:08:37.547 sessions, you've done a lot of this. 00:08:37.977 --> 00:08:41.697 And then right before we're about to finish up, you'll get started on the 00:08:41.707 --> 00:08:43.067 thing you really want to talk about. 00:08:44.497 --> 00:08:47.187 Here's, you know, here's your homework for next week. 00:08:47.187 --> 00:08:50.407 Why don't you give a bit of thought to, 00:08:50.421 --> 00:08:53.528 basically, you know, when you write the long email and then you delete 00:08:54.068 --> 00:08:58.068 the top 90 percent and the last paragraph is the one you send. 00:08:58.178 --> 00:08:58.398 Yeah. 00:08:58.578 --> 00:09:00.118 Sometimes it's like that in therapy. 00:09:00.158 --> 00:09:00.898 So you might have to do. 00:09:01.828 --> 00:09:05.728 You might have to waste your time, in a sense, for three or four sessions until 00:09:05.728 --> 00:09:09.398 you kind of start to clear away some of the rubble and you go, okay, let's get 00:09:09.398 --> 00:09:11.348 to something that's a bit more central. 00:09:11.598 --> 00:09:14.128 So this is why you have to make more than a three session commitment. 00:09:14.618 --> 00:09:18.038 And also like I, I'm very sympathetic towards anybody, 00:09:18.038 --> 00:09:21.828 but yeah, let's say blokes a lot of the time that are like that. 00:09:21.858 --> 00:09:22.768 I said, I'm fine. 00:09:22.768 --> 00:09:23.658 And I just walked out. 00:09:23.658 --> 00:09:25.318 Like, I'm very sympathetic to that. 00:09:25.328 --> 00:09:29.868 I'd love nothing better than to just have that confidence that I'm fine. 00:09:29.978 --> 00:09:31.218 I'm no flies on me, mate. 00:09:31.218 --> 00:09:35.718 Ali: I prefer to work these things out myself. 00:09:35.748 --> 00:09:35.988 Yeah. 00:09:35.988 --> 00:09:36.118 Good one. 00:09:36.118 --> 00:09:36.358 Good one. 00:09:36.358 --> 00:09:37.580 I prefer to work them out myself. 00:09:37.580 --> 00:09:41.648 How's that been working out for you? 00:09:41.648 --> 00:09:45.603 Joe: Yeah, Bill Burr said therapy was bullshit and oh yeah, you go in and 00:09:45.853 --> 00:09:48.033 just talk about the few big things that have happened and then you 00:09:48.033 --> 00:09:49.313 don't, there's no need to keep going. 00:09:49.403 --> 00:09:50.533 Sam: Uh, no, no, he does it. 00:09:50.683 --> 00:09:51.253 No, he does it. 00:09:51.503 --> 00:09:52.263 And well, 00:09:52.263 --> 00:09:55.183 Joe: that's what I, I saw a video of him and this is a deep fake Sam. 00:09:55.253 --> 00:09:55.383 Oh, 00:09:55.383 --> 00:09:56.433 Sam: it might be an old one though. 00:09:57.103 --> 00:09:57.363 No, no, no, no. 00:09:57.363 --> 00:10:00.783 He's, he's, he started it a while ago and I'm pretty sure. 00:10:00.813 --> 00:10:06.163 And more importantly though, like he quit drinking like four times and 00:10:06.163 --> 00:10:07.913 then it's stuck on the last time. 00:10:08.393 --> 00:10:09.833 And he does. 00:10:10.288 --> 00:10:15.048 Two weekly, two weekly shows, which, I know he's on to three or four now, 00:10:15.648 --> 00:10:20.038 where he's actually constantly examining himself, like you see it, and so like, uh. 00:10:21.263 --> 00:10:24.643 So he's a not a, he's a bad example for the average person to follow because 00:10:24.643 --> 00:10:29.963 this person is fearlessly self examining and has been that way for too long. 00:10:29.963 --> 00:10:30.073 He 00:10:30.943 --> 00:10:30.963 Ali: is. 00:10:32.133 --> 00:10:34.733 Joe: But this show is, I don't know for you guys, for me, it's 00:10:34.733 --> 00:10:37.993 incredibly therapeutic, but it's also not formal therapy. 00:10:38.423 --> 00:10:38.933 It's not. 00:10:38.983 --> 00:10:43.773 Uh, like you talk about the end of an email, I hit the end of a therapy session. 00:10:44.103 --> 00:10:45.633 We're flying by the end. 00:10:46.023 --> 00:10:48.403 By the time we get to 50 minutes, it's like. 00:10:49.038 --> 00:10:53.138 Like, there's like fucking fireworks going off, you know, like there's so much 00:10:53.148 --> 00:10:57.528 flowing out from my whole life and it's like, and that's the end of the session. 00:10:57.808 --> 00:10:58.328 Sam: It's a bummer. 00:10:58.908 --> 00:11:01.758 I was reading about the castration thing, the castration complex 00:11:01.758 --> 00:11:05.448 or castration anxiety and where that really originally came from. 00:11:05.698 --> 00:11:10.008 And it was Freud's observation that people always felt like they were 00:11:10.008 --> 00:11:14.898 making the most progress right when the session had to end and that there 00:11:14.898 --> 00:11:17.438 would be this fear and resentment 00:11:22.538 --> 00:11:24.398 Joe: Make it weird and about balls though, didn't he? 00:11:24.628 --> 00:11:25.448 Yeah, he did. 00:11:25.808 --> 00:11:26.708 Sam: Isn't that Freud though? 00:11:26.898 --> 00:11:27.678 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:11:27.678 --> 00:11:30.118 He's very genital focused man. 00:11:30.128 --> 00:11:31.798 Like where's the balls coming. 00:11:32.108 --> 00:11:34.338 And the bum and the bum as well, all about the bum. 00:11:34.338 --> 00:11:38.798 But like, I think there's something in that that like you have to place 00:11:38.798 --> 00:11:43.258 limits on things and it was his observation, we don't like that. 00:11:43.643 --> 00:11:45.083 And that's actually part of the, 00:11:45.237 --> 00:11:48.442 it's part of the essential functioning of the therapy is that there's a start 00:11:48.442 --> 00:11:53.652 and end time and that you will get cut off and that you can't, you can't self 00:11:53.652 --> 00:11:58.482 indulge endlessly and that you will always feel, um, although it seems 00:11:58.482 --> 00:12:02.482 like Joe's going out on a high, but like, I always feel like, damn it. 00:12:02.952 --> 00:12:04.152 There was more I could have done. 00:12:04.422 --> 00:12:06.742 And then what that does is it focuses the mind on, well, what 00:12:06.742 --> 00:12:07.942 is the more you could have done? 00:12:07.982 --> 00:12:09.552 Joe: And then you focus for next week. 00:12:09.562 --> 00:12:13.842 But like, yeah, I don't take drugs, but I 00:12:14.084 --> 00:12:16.324 would love to do like, uh, 00:12:16.377 --> 00:12:20.836 The an MD M D M A six hour therapy session. 00:12:20.866 --> 00:12:24.586 Yeah, so M D M A first came about and this is how it's used now with That's right. 00:12:24.586 --> 00:12:25.606 It was used clinically at first. 00:12:25.806 --> 00:12:28.136 It's, it's used now with people with ptsd. 00:12:28.176 --> 00:12:28.376 Ts 00:12:28.636 --> 00:12:31.306 Sam: ptsd, TS d Yeah, I'm, I'm gonna sign up, could 00:12:31.306 --> 00:12:36.286 Joe: handle like six to eight hour M D M A therapy session where I talk about my 00:12:36.286 --> 00:12:37.846 relationship with my parents or whatever. 00:12:37.846 --> 00:12:39.076 Sam: I wanna do the ketamine actually. 00:12:39.106 --> 00:12:39.556 But yeah, 00:12:39.796 --> 00:12:40.816 Joe: just take ketamine. 00:12:41.176 --> 00:12:42.076 I can get you some. 00:12:42.196 --> 00:12:43.246 Just fucking take it. 00:12:43.246 --> 00:12:44.806 Something really weird will happen. 00:12:45.016 --> 00:12:46.126 Time will stop working. 00:12:46.126 --> 00:12:49.696 You'll feel like you literally spend eternity in there and then 00:12:49.696 --> 00:12:51.736 you're like, time kicks back in. 00:12:51.736 --> 00:12:53.086 You're like, oh my God. 00:12:53.086 --> 00:12:58.006 I was in there for eternity and like my hand was giant and like 00:12:58.066 --> 00:12:59.926 it's stressful as fuck, you know? 00:12:59.926 --> 00:13:01.576 But you feel maybe good the next day. 00:13:01.786 --> 00:13:03.646 Sam: I would, you have to get the exact right dose, 00:13:03.646 --> 00:13:05.296 Joe: but yeah, you are not talking. 00:13:05.566 --> 00:13:07.456 Can it mean you're not doing talking therapy? 00:13:07.706 --> 00:13:09.206 Oh, no, no, I mean, I'm interested in doing both. 00:13:09.206 --> 00:13:13.416 For MDMA, your emotions are protected and opened up, right? 00:13:13.566 --> 00:13:18.506 So, but leaving with it, I would do seven hour caffeine therapy where I just drank 00:13:18.536 --> 00:13:21.686 coffee and talked more and more and more and more and more with my therapist. 00:13:22.166 --> 00:13:25.976 Like, there's no, I haven't found a limit to how much therapy I can do. 00:13:26.046 --> 00:13:26.226 No. 00:13:26.406 --> 00:13:28.026 I would, if I had the means. 00:13:28.381 --> 00:13:31.231 And I'm a long way off this, I would go twice a week. 00:13:31.241 --> 00:13:31.541 Yeah. 00:13:31.591 --> 00:13:32.371 Go twice a day. 00:13:32.981 --> 00:13:33.431 Sam: Twice a week. 00:13:33.441 --> 00:13:33.691 I'd go 00:13:33.781 --> 00:13:34.501 Joe: twice a week. 00:13:34.511 --> 00:13:34.701 Yeah. 00:13:34.721 --> 00:13:34.861 Yeah. 00:13:34.871 --> 00:13:38.641 Where I'm at now in therapy at three years, it's now's the time 00:13:38.641 --> 00:13:41.841 to go twice a week because I don't fucking waste time in there. 00:13:43.111 --> 00:13:45.781 If I go into therapy and talk about the woman I went on a date with 00:13:45.781 --> 00:13:47.421 last week, I'm wasting my time. 00:13:47.481 --> 00:13:47.741 Yeah. 00:13:47.791 --> 00:13:53.151 But if I go in there and be like, you know, in my household when I was 12 years 00:13:53.151 --> 00:13:55.881 old, there was always this blah, blah. 00:13:57.216 --> 00:14:02.206 It's like, she's never told me to talk about my childhood, because 00:14:02.206 --> 00:14:06.586 she just sits there and doesn't say anything at all, and won't even, if 00:14:06.586 --> 00:14:10.396 I say, G'day, how are you, she'll be like, doesn't matter how I am, Joe. 00:14:10.846 --> 00:14:11.026 So 00:14:13.696 --> 00:14:16.316 Sam: Yeah, we're here to talk about you, there's a tip from the top, 00:14:16.396 --> 00:14:19.686 uh, yeah, if you're not entirely sure what to go in there and talk 00:14:19.686 --> 00:14:24.406 about, just Just pick any significant childhood memory and start there. 00:14:24.416 --> 00:14:26.016 Like it'll, it'll lead you somewhere. 00:14:26.046 --> 00:14:28.196 Joe: Yeah, but they won't tell you to do that. 00:14:28.366 --> 00:14:31.576 You can decide to talk about whatever you can go in and just talk about what 00:14:31.576 --> 00:14:33.006 you have for breakfast if you want. 00:14:33.076 --> 00:14:34.206 Yeah, it's your time. 00:14:34.206 --> 00:14:35.096 It's your money. 00:14:35.156 --> 00:14:37.636 Sam: Also, I think a lot of people hesitate to go to therapy because 00:14:37.636 --> 00:14:40.906 they don't want to go in there and walk away hating their parents and 00:14:40.906 --> 00:14:42.016 blaming their parents for everything. 00:14:42.676 --> 00:14:44.026 It's actually the opposite of that. 00:14:44.026 --> 00:14:44.206 Yes. 00:14:44.206 --> 00:14:45.966 It's about letting go of blame and hate. 00:14:46.166 --> 00:14:47.726 Yeah, it really is. 00:14:48.146 --> 00:14:49.286 Ali: Oh, that's a good one, Sam. 00:14:49.661 --> 00:14:49.801 forward. 00:14:49.801 --> 00:14:52.571 Yeah, I've certainly experienced that with, when it comes to my 00:14:52.571 --> 00:14:55.981 family and any resentments and things like, and being able to move 00:14:56.501 --> 00:14:58.831 really positively forward with that. 00:14:58.841 --> 00:15:00.341 Like that's, that's been huge 00:15:01.041 --> 00:15:04.781 Joe: for me last week that she feels like we're, our relationship's so much 00:15:04.781 --> 00:15:06.121 better since I've been going to therapy. 00:15:06.121 --> 00:15:06.991 Sam: Yeah, it should be. 00:15:07.081 --> 00:15:07.491 Yeah. 00:15:07.601 --> 00:15:10.711 Joe: And I've processed a lot of stuff to do without my relationship with her. 00:15:10.811 --> 00:15:11.661 And it's like, 00:15:11.885 --> 00:15:15.515 You think that you're going to be prosecuting your parents in the, but 00:15:16.225 --> 00:15:17.555 yeah, it's exactly what you just said. 00:15:17.565 --> 00:15:17.905 I think. 00:15:18.685 --> 00:15:19.385 Sam: Work on yourself, man. 00:15:19.385 --> 00:15:19.855 That's it. 00:15:19.885 --> 00:15:20.385 Yeah. 00:15:20.385 --> 00:15:22.365 Joe: I think it's a big misconception. 00:15:22.405 --> 00:15:24.095 And we also have the dead parents, Sam. 00:15:24.215 --> 00:15:24.815 Sam: Yeah. 00:15:24.975 --> 00:15:26.535 It seems especially unfair, doesn't it? 00:15:26.575 --> 00:15:27.125 But it's like 00:15:27.125 --> 00:15:28.045 Joe: they're sainted. 00:15:28.105 --> 00:15:28.335 Yeah. 00:15:28.365 --> 00:15:28.625 Right. 00:15:28.635 --> 00:15:28.995 That's right. 00:15:29.075 --> 00:15:30.425 The sainted dead parent. 00:15:30.625 --> 00:15:31.175 But it's. 00:15:31.450 --> 00:15:34.690 It's still worth looking at your relationship with them 00:15:34.690 --> 00:15:36.270 Sam: and it's through like that exploration of... 00:15:36.280 --> 00:15:36.540 You have 00:15:36.540 --> 00:15:37.180 Ali: to, in fact. 00:15:37.690 --> 00:15:41.420 Like yourself and then, you know, and seeing yourself as a complex and flawed 00:15:41.420 --> 00:15:43.190 person and then seeing your parents as... 00:15:43.270 --> 00:15:44.020 Sam: In the same light. 00:15:44.030 --> 00:15:47.900 Ali: In the same light as complex and flawed people who made mistakes and 00:15:48.050 --> 00:15:50.980 then, yeah, that understanding and forgiveness and going, okay, I know. 00:15:51.430 --> 00:15:53.520 Yeah, this might've been a mistake and it's also acknowledging, 00:15:53.530 --> 00:15:54.790 okay, this really hurt me. 00:15:54.980 --> 00:15:59.150 I, my feelings are valid around that, but also similarly, they were doing the best 00:15:59.150 --> 00:16:02.630 they could with what they had and you know, it wasn't a malicious, you know. 00:16:03.235 --> 00:16:03.565 Thing. 00:16:03.565 --> 00:16:06.145 It was just, you know, they've made a mistake and it doesn't 00:16:06.265 --> 00:16:07.705 minimize the impact it's had on you. 00:16:07.705 --> 00:16:10.495 But yeah, it gives you an understanding and like you said, a forgiveness 00:16:10.495 --> 00:16:11.335 being able to move forward, 00:16:11.340 --> 00:16:12.865 Joe: which is fundamental to growing up. 00:16:12.925 --> 00:16:13.105 Yeah. 00:16:13.135 --> 00:16:14.155 Yes, exactly. 00:16:14.245 --> 00:16:15.805 That's actually what growing up is. 00:16:15.835 --> 00:16:16.225 Yes. 00:16:16.225 --> 00:16:17.335 Giving your parents, yeah. 00:16:17.340 --> 00:16:17.845 Sam: Yes. 00:16:17.965 --> 00:16:18.445 It's brilliant. 00:16:18.445 --> 00:16:23.085 It's 90% of it, I reckon, and, and it because, and not to understate it, because 00:16:23.085 --> 00:16:24.585 it's like, oh, well great, well fine. 00:16:24.585 --> 00:16:25.515 I'll just forgive my parents. 00:16:25.515 --> 00:16:25.905 Done. 00:16:26.175 --> 00:16:28.245 It's like, eh, actually, yeah. 00:16:28.425 --> 00:16:29.385 You haven't gone into it yet. 00:16:29.390 --> 00:16:29.955 Yeah. 00:16:29.955 --> 00:16:29.956 Yeah. 00:16:32.015 --> 00:16:35.105 And yes, you might walk out of a session hating your mother or your 00:16:35.105 --> 00:16:39.685 father, that's part of the work, but that's not going to, that wound is not 00:16:39.685 --> 00:16:41.705 going to stay open and fester forever. 00:16:42.035 --> 00:16:45.075 And another way to think about it is that wound was already there. 00:16:45.465 --> 00:16:47.595 And then you, what you've had to, yeah. 00:16:47.625 --> 00:16:50.045 Joe: You've been very clear that in hindsight, your parents 00:16:50.075 --> 00:16:55.125 shouldn't have sent you to a martial Hare Krishna boarding school. 00:16:55.135 --> 00:16:55.355 Yeah. 00:16:55.375 --> 00:16:56.785 It was a big mistake. 00:16:56.865 --> 00:16:59.205 The weirdo that you ended up becoming is. 00:16:59.565 --> 00:17:03.625 Yeah, in large part due to the trauma of that time. 00:17:03.665 --> 00:17:06.575 Sam: Yes, there's a lot of manure here that's turning into roses hopefully, 00:17:06.575 --> 00:17:11.175 but the truth is it's and as much as like I've made So they fucked that up? 00:17:11.195 --> 00:17:11.605 They did. 00:17:11.605 --> 00:17:12.185 They fucked it up. 00:17:12.335 --> 00:17:15.345 And as much as I've made interesting stories out of it, I've made, I've made 00:17:15.345 --> 00:17:19.205 a meal out of it in the past, but this is something I've been wanting to share with 00:17:19.205 --> 00:17:24.975 both of you actually that I've just, just last week, I think on Tuesday night, I 00:17:24.975 --> 00:17:29.305 was going to get out some podcast work or something and then instead I picked up the 00:17:29.305 --> 00:17:37.305 journal and the pen and, and then I went, no, I'm not going to do a journal entry. 00:17:37.415 --> 00:17:40.065 I'm going to write about boarding school. 00:17:40.565 --> 00:17:42.265 It was not such a conscious intention. 00:17:42.265 --> 00:17:46.505 I just, I was finishing the dishes up and I was like, ah, the words 00:17:46.505 --> 00:17:49.955 were coming to me, describing in a kind of flow of consciousness. 00:17:50.370 --> 00:17:53.230 I was running around the temple in Melbourne and then I was like, and 00:17:53.230 --> 00:17:56.720 then I get on the plane and then I'm at the other place and all the boys 00:17:56.720 --> 00:17:58.550 are crying in the dormitory at night. 00:17:59.460 --> 00:18:04.770 And I was like, ah, I really need to tell this story and I need to tell it properly 00:18:04.800 --> 00:18:06.560 and not as an entertaining anecdote. 00:18:06.680 --> 00:18:17.120 I need to get to the truth of it, which is that it was very painful and therapy has. 00:18:18.790 --> 00:18:21.100 We've been doing more and more work on the boarding school thing 00:18:21.630 --> 00:18:23.130 and less and less on other stuff. 00:18:23.130 --> 00:18:23.460 So, 00:18:24.530 --> 00:18:27.020 you know, when I first went into therapy, I thought it was about 00:18:27.480 --> 00:18:30.750 more recent things, the death of my mother, the loss of this relationship. 00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:34.130 My struggles to start a career. 00:18:34.650 --> 00:18:36.170 And it's just, no, go back. 00:18:36.690 --> 00:18:38.150 It's, oh, it's about the teenage years. 00:18:38.160 --> 00:18:39.070 No, no, go back. 00:18:39.200 --> 00:18:40.250 It's always, keep going back. 00:18:40.290 --> 00:18:42.520 It's like, no, no, no, the wound is earlier. 00:18:42.540 --> 00:18:44.270 All of this other stuff is just echoes. 00:18:44.740 --> 00:18:48.360 And look, don't fall for the illusion of the one wound either, because 00:18:48.360 --> 00:18:49.430 it's never quite that simple. 00:18:49.430 --> 00:18:56.050 But so to stick to my point here, Adams helped me get back to the, and 00:18:56.050 --> 00:19:00.180 it even goes back before the serious separation from the family at age six, 00:19:00.180 --> 00:19:01.710 but there's things before that, but. 00:19:02.240 --> 00:19:03.190 That's the big thing. 00:19:04.700 --> 00:19:09.480 So finally I'm writing this story properly the other night and I, I was, 00:19:10.270 --> 00:19:14.680 I felt, I felt like very emotional, but 00:19:16.020 --> 00:19:21.160 I felt this great sense of fulfillment and satisfaction at the same time. 00:19:21.170 --> 00:19:21.370 Right. 00:19:21.370 --> 00:19:22.495 And that's what, that's the. 00:19:22.965 --> 00:19:26.125 That's the best of what you'll get out of the therapeutic process, a feeling that 00:19:26.125 --> 00:19:27.705 you're doing what you need to be doing. 00:19:27.715 --> 00:19:29.145 And that something's been resolved. 00:19:29.155 --> 00:19:30.095 Something's been resolved. 00:19:30.435 --> 00:19:33.735 And you're that much closer to, well, and it may not always 00:19:33.735 --> 00:19:35.115 feel like a complete resolution. 00:19:35.115 --> 00:19:36.255 So that's the other thing you have to, 00:19:36.605 --> 00:19:39.055 you might have to lower your expectations about what 00:19:39.605 --> 00:19:39.965 Joe: it's going to feel like. 00:19:39.965 --> 00:19:43.545 I asked my therapist last week, I said, can I resolve this stuff? 00:19:44.175 --> 00:19:48.525 And she said, no, no, but you can carry it much more lightly than you have been. 00:19:48.615 --> 00:19:48.775 We 00:19:48.775 --> 00:19:50.525 Sam: have to carry these things lightly, Adam says. 00:19:50.715 --> 00:19:51.345 I was going to say, 00:19:51.385 --> 00:19:52.105 Joe: Ali, what... 00:19:53.230 --> 00:19:55.030 How do you know that therapy is working for you? 00:19:55.600 --> 00:19:59.860 Ali: Well, like even like this last week, um, I opened up to Joe about 00:19:59.860 --> 00:20:02.840 some stuff that had happened to me when I was younger, which I'd always. 00:20:03.370 --> 00:20:07.990 Historically, what one did not speak about at all, I couldn't even verbalize 00:20:07.990 --> 00:20:12.230 it, I got to a point where I could start to verbalize it, but I would get myself 00:20:12.230 --> 00:20:16.000 into such a state of extreme distress, like we're talking like throwing up, 00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:18.160 crying, like it was really extreme. 00:20:19.280 --> 00:20:21.420 And so I just, it became a thing like, I can't talk about 00:20:21.420 --> 00:20:22.110 it, I can't talk about it. 00:20:22.110 --> 00:20:23.935 And I know now over the years, like. 00:20:24.185 --> 00:20:29.145 The last few years doing EMDR, doing like lots of trauma therapy, it's been, 00:20:29.485 --> 00:20:32.825 I can now, it's not that there's still no emotion when I, I mean, I'd love 00:20:32.825 --> 00:20:35.125 to get to a point where I don't have emotions attached to these memories 00:20:35.125 --> 00:20:36.285 and I don't know that I ever will. 00:20:36.305 --> 00:20:41.375 I said that to Joe, but a much more manageable thing that I could 00:20:41.465 --> 00:20:45.135 discuss something that's happened to me in a way without getting, you 00:20:45.135 --> 00:20:46.555 know, completely falling to pieces. 00:20:47.240 --> 00:20:48.480 And that's because... 00:20:49.040 --> 00:20:50.310 Joe: But without being detached from 00:20:50.310 --> 00:20:51.140 Ali: it either. 00:20:51.140 --> 00:20:52.940 Yeah, it's not detached from it because it's still very 00:20:52.940 --> 00:20:54.620 hard and painful to talk about. 00:20:54.960 --> 00:20:56.800 But, I haven't... 00:20:57.230 --> 00:21:01.340 Yeah, I mean, I don't talk about that openly with many people at all. 00:21:01.955 --> 00:21:06.455 Um, or at all, really, I mean, mainly in therapy, but yeah, just being able 00:21:06.455 --> 00:21:09.695 to, you know, as my, and I, I did say to my therapist this week, I was 00:21:09.695 --> 00:21:12.385 like, Oh, I was actually able to speak to a friend about, you know, some of 00:21:12.385 --> 00:21:13.375 this stuff, like for the first time. 00:21:13.755 --> 00:21:17.355 And he was just like, this is huge for you because there must've been a, there's 00:21:17.355 --> 00:21:21.585 a level of trust and safety there with your friend that you can actually, 00:21:21.915 --> 00:21:23.385 that information's not going to be. 00:21:23.725 --> 00:21:23.875 Yeah. 00:21:23.895 --> 00:21:24.055 Okay. 00:21:24.485 --> 00:21:27.525 Weaponize or used to hurt you or any way and that you just felt safe enough 00:21:27.525 --> 00:21:29.605 to be able to openly share What I think 00:21:29.955 --> 00:21:33.335 Joe: that's the thing about friends who are all doing therapy Which is us on this 00:21:33.355 --> 00:21:35.705 podcast is that you shared that with me. 00:21:35.725 --> 00:21:39.275 It was horrific Maybe one of the worst things I've ever heard from someone I 00:21:39.295 --> 00:21:45.505 know but and then it stayed with me for a couple of days and disturbed me but 00:21:45.505 --> 00:21:50.375 because I'm doing therapy That's okay Because I got my own shit floating around 00:21:50.375 --> 00:21:51.785 and it's always kind of disturbing me. 00:21:53.345 --> 00:21:53.875 Focus on someone else's. 00:21:54.155 --> 00:21:59.825 So, well I was actually able to hold Ali's stuff, like because 00:21:59.825 --> 00:22:05.185 I have a process and I've got a person that I talk to and I like, it 00:22:05.185 --> 00:22:08.855 gives me capacity to take on adult 00:22:09.095 --> 00:22:09.715 Sam: stuff. 00:22:09.765 --> 00:22:11.655 I think you're ready for a relationship after all, Joe. 00:22:12.755 --> 00:22:13.155 Because 00:22:13.155 --> 00:22:14.895 Ali: it's, it's interesting, like, I've always been very much... 00:22:14.895 --> 00:22:15.455 It's not with Ali. 00:22:15.465 --> 00:22:15.925 It's a 00:22:17.125 --> 00:22:19.165 Sam: wonderful thing you two have got, don't mess it up. 00:22:20.255 --> 00:22:20.605 Um, 00:22:20.865 --> 00:22:24.135 Ali: yeah, but like being able to share, yeah, sharing that information 00:22:24.135 --> 00:22:25.435 and knowing that yeah, it is. 00:22:25.835 --> 00:22:28.625 Yeah, I don't want to expose anyone to any sort of vicarious trauma. 00:22:29.235 --> 00:22:31.875 It's quite, it's quite, it's not a, like, yeah. 00:22:32.115 --> 00:22:37.025 And feeling comfortable that, yeah, Joe would be able to like, to handle it. 00:22:37.245 --> 00:22:39.645 And him also reassuring me that you can tell me or that, 00:22:39.645 --> 00:22:41.195 yeah, I can, I can handle it. 00:22:41.195 --> 00:22:43.565 And, and knowing that, okay, he's, you know. 00:22:44.125 --> 00:22:45.905 Yeah, he's not going to take this on personally. 00:22:45.905 --> 00:22:48.225 He might think about it and think, you know, might have to process 00:22:48.225 --> 00:22:48.355 Joe: it. 00:22:48.355 --> 00:22:52.545 I just get really curious as to like why people are the way they are. 00:22:52.845 --> 00:22:55.925 Yeah, and until they explain to me their trauma. 00:22:55.995 --> 00:23:01.255 Yeah, it's very, it just becomes, if you get close enough with a 00:23:01.255 --> 00:23:05.085 person, there's a certain point where the stuff that's hidden behind 00:23:05.445 --> 00:23:07.045 Yeah, the black wall or whatever. 00:23:08.010 --> 00:23:12.500 You need to know that stuff because it's hinted at all the time. 00:23:12.910 --> 00:23:13.560 Completely agree. 00:23:13.620 --> 00:23:14.070 And... 00:23:14.730 --> 00:23:16.890 Once you know the extent of it, 00:23:17.540 --> 00:23:19.440 Sam: It's so much easier to forgive that person for 00:23:19.950 --> 00:23:20.090 Ali: things. 00:23:20.210 --> 00:23:22.740 Or just an understanding of like, oh, I can understand why they're 00:23:22.740 --> 00:23:23.970 behaving the way they are now. 00:23:23.990 --> 00:23:26.950 It is, it's that understanding of like, why on earth would that person do that? 00:23:27.190 --> 00:23:29.550 But in the context of, well, they've experienced all these 00:23:29.550 --> 00:23:32.320 things and this is the patterns of behavior that are a result of that. 00:23:32.390 --> 00:23:33.000 Oh, that makes 00:23:33.000 --> 00:23:33.270 Joe: sense. 00:23:33.270 --> 00:23:37.020 And the, the, the, the part, the, the way that I didn't like to get that 00:23:37.020 --> 00:23:39.330 information was working on a psych ward. 00:23:39.870 --> 00:23:46.610 You could look up people's file, and you could see what their trauma was, as in 00:23:46.610 --> 00:23:51.000 the criminal stuff, or stuff that had happened to them, and I used to never 00:23:51.000 --> 00:23:56.620 look up patients files, because I only ever wanted them to tell me, as a peer 00:23:56.620 --> 00:24:02.185 support worker, what they wanted to tell me, and not be defined by it was Whatever 00:24:02.185 --> 00:24:03.705 horrible things that happen to them. 00:24:03.705 --> 00:24:08.185 Whereas a lot of the clinicians would look at them as defined by whatever 00:24:08.185 --> 00:24:09.115 horrible things that happen to 00:24:09.115 --> 00:24:09.145 Sam: them. 00:24:09.145 --> 00:24:11.095 And the same thing often happens in education. 00:24:12.265 --> 00:24:12.855 Yeah. 00:24:13.065 --> 00:24:15.775 Ali: Yeah, because it's yeah You're looking at it through the lens of okay 00:24:15.775 --> 00:24:20.205 Well, these these traumatic events have potentially created a series of 00:24:20.395 --> 00:24:24.275 personality disorders or like diagnosable things And so I mean from a clinical point 00:24:24.275 --> 00:24:27.535 of view that they would need to know that information Whereas your role as a peer 00:24:27.565 --> 00:24:31.315 support worker is different in that you don't have to have that lens clouding, 00:24:31.645 --> 00:24:33.595 what you're providing to that person. 00:24:33.755 --> 00:24:37.005 Joe: But the wonderful thing about my therapist, and I would broaden it 00:24:37.005 --> 00:24:40.995 out to say about psychoanalysis, and she's a Lacanian trained psychoanalyst, 00:24:41.895 --> 00:24:46.555 also a clinical, clinical psych who's worked in hospitals, and maybe 00:24:46.555 --> 00:24:49.505 still does, because she's mysterious, doesn't tell me anything, but like, 00:24:50.353 --> 00:24:54.533 The refreshing thing about her, I had psychologists in the past who kind 00:24:54.533 --> 00:24:59.113 of gave me a bit of a pat on the back and said, Oh, you're not doing so bad. 00:24:59.133 --> 00:25:00.783 Oh, we all worry about stuff like that. 00:25:00.783 --> 00:25:01.593 Don't worry about it. 00:25:01.593 --> 00:25:02.283 You're doing good. 00:25:02.693 --> 00:25:05.993 Um, I think the right lady will come along and think you're just great and 00:25:06.023 --> 00:25:08.433 like nice older lady therapists, you know? 00:25:08.563 --> 00:25:08.873 Yeah. 00:25:08.983 --> 00:25:11.933 And my current therapist is an older lady therapist, but she... 00:25:13.063 --> 00:25:15.783 Looked at me, and she wasn't, it's the same thing. 00:25:15.813 --> 00:25:21.223 She didn't just, a psychiatrist looks at me and says, he has bipolar. 00:25:21.693 --> 00:25:21.883 Yeah. 00:25:21.963 --> 00:25:25.223 Which is a genetic thing, which is a brain chemical thing, which 00:25:25.223 --> 00:25:26.893 I'm gonna give him medication for. 00:25:26.893 --> 00:25:27.073 Yeah. 00:25:27.483 --> 00:25:31.653 And I don't really care about his childhood or his past relationships, 00:25:32.303 --> 00:25:37.333 I'm just gonna give him these pills, that'll be 600, and the last psychiatrist 00:25:37.333 --> 00:25:39.843 I saw said, take these two things for the rest of your life and don't 00:25:39.843 --> 00:25:40.943 come back, get on with your life. 00:25:41.833 --> 00:25:45.903 And I was, I, look and I've stuck to that and he was right. 00:25:46.183 --> 00:25:49.403 But that's, that's, it's, it's a bit more like going to see a mechanic or 00:25:49.403 --> 00:25:51.743 something, you know, it's like, you 00:25:51.743 --> 00:25:54.683 Ali: can't, They're not so much interested in the reason why, they just know how to, 00:25:54.843 --> 00:25:55.283 Sam: Whereas 00:25:55.853 --> 00:26:00.213 Joe: Peter was willing to step right back and be like, I don't even 00:26:00.213 --> 00:26:02.063 care about your bipolar diagnosis. 00:26:02.723 --> 00:26:03.973 I'm not going to... 00:26:04.023 --> 00:26:05.113 It's neither here nor there for me. 00:26:05.123 --> 00:26:06.313 It's neither here nor there. 00:26:07.313 --> 00:26:09.753 Let's work out why you are the way you are. 00:26:10.433 --> 00:26:15.073 And if some of that involves some bipolarity, she almost approaches 00:26:15.073 --> 00:26:18.023 it like a literary device. 00:26:18.323 --> 00:26:22.113 Like she was talking to me the other day about two tracks of thought, my father and 00:26:22.133 --> 00:26:24.603 my mother, and they're on separate tracks. 00:26:24.603 --> 00:26:27.473 And she's like, that's a very bipolar way of looking at it, isn't it? 00:26:27.758 --> 00:26:31.268 But they're gonna have to converge, because they're not actually 00:26:31.278 --> 00:26:33.768 separate, the way that you've laid them out in your mind. 00:26:33.918 --> 00:26:39.528 So she'll use the bipolar thing as a mechanism, but it's almost like a 00:26:39.528 --> 00:26:41.968 literary mechanism to open up a story. 00:26:42.348 --> 00:26:43.148 She... 00:26:44.128 --> 00:26:49.138 Creates the strongest impression that she thinks my bipolar comes 00:26:49.138 --> 00:26:51.528 from what happened to me as a child. 00:26:51.888 --> 00:26:56.948 It's not just something I was born with that was triggered by some marijuana use, 00:26:56.998 --> 00:26:58.798 which is what a psychiatrist would say. 00:26:58.838 --> 00:26:59.078 Yes. 00:26:59.118 --> 00:27:02.878 And she does these little smiles when I mention, you know, a psychiatrist. 00:27:02.968 --> 00:27:05.788 I wouldn't say that, and they just go, 00:27:05.788 --> 00:27:07.248 Sam: hmm. 00:27:07.418 --> 00:27:10.518 Ali: Therapists, they I mean, there's a lot of evidence with bipolar that 00:27:10.518 --> 00:27:12.278 there's obviously a genetic component. 00:27:12.288 --> 00:27:14.968 There's a genetic factor, but it's actually a traumatic 00:27:14.968 --> 00:27:16.578 event, not necessarily drug use. 00:27:16.918 --> 00:27:20.968 It's actually trauma that then triggers it into becoming, to be expressing 00:27:20.968 --> 00:27:22.608 those traits as genetic traits. 00:27:22.608 --> 00:27:22.618 25 00:27:24.758 --> 00:27:28.638 Sam: years since, 30 years since Dolly the sheep or whatever, and we still don't. 00:27:28.958 --> 00:27:32.818 Have strong genetic correlates for a lot of mental illness. 00:27:33.058 --> 00:27:37.258 Like it's really pretty poor, but it suggests that nurture 00:27:37.268 --> 00:27:38.478 is playing a huge role here. 00:27:38.678 --> 00:27:41.668 Joe: I would suggest Sam, I'm going to do a Sam impersonation. 00:27:41.678 --> 00:27:41.918 Yeah. 00:27:41.958 --> 00:27:42.198 Right. 00:27:42.198 --> 00:27:42.678 You ready? 00:27:42.738 --> 00:27:43.228 Yeah. 00:27:43.548 --> 00:27:46.608 To any bipolar people out there, I would suggest you have both a 00:27:46.608 --> 00:27:48.458 psychiatrist and a psychologist. 00:27:48.513 --> 00:27:48.603 Yes. 00:27:49.293 --> 00:27:52.743 Now the psychiatrist will keep you functioning in capitalism and paying 00:27:52.743 --> 00:27:54.723 your bills and rent or mortgage. 00:27:54.723 --> 00:27:55.263 That's true. 00:27:55.268 --> 00:27:55.613 That's true. 00:27:55.863 --> 00:27:57.333 'cause they'll medicate you correctly. 00:27:57.363 --> 00:27:57.543 Yep. 00:27:57.548 --> 00:27:59.883 So that you can be functioning, be functional, functioning. 00:27:59.913 --> 00:28:00.123 Yeah. 00:28:00.123 --> 00:28:02.643 Psych, minimize side effects might actually help you work 00:28:02.643 --> 00:28:05.013 out why you have so much pain. 00:28:05.103 --> 00:28:05.463 Yes. 00:28:05.493 --> 00:28:06.813 And drama in your life. 00:28:07.688 --> 00:28:10.958 And you might actually overcome a lot of this stuff. 00:28:11.148 --> 00:28:11.428 Yes. 00:28:11.438 --> 00:28:12.848 So there you go, Sam. 00:28:12.858 --> 00:28:15.058 I did a bit of advice to the listeners. 00:28:15.188 --> 00:28:16.528 I try not to give advice. 00:28:16.728 --> 00:28:17.238 It's exactly 00:28:17.268 --> 00:28:18.108 Sam: what I would say though. 00:28:18.108 --> 00:28:18.388 Yeah. 00:28:18.608 --> 00:28:18.838 Yeah. 00:28:19.378 --> 00:28:19.718 Yeah. 00:28:19.828 --> 00:28:22.088 I think, no, I think, I think it was a fair impression. 00:28:22.128 --> 00:28:23.208 It was very complimentary to me. 00:28:23.268 --> 00:28:23.788 Thank you. 00:28:24.618 --> 00:28:27.048 Joe: I think it's because you're a teacher. 00:28:27.428 --> 00:28:29.888 You're quite comfortable just being like, I think you should try this. 00:28:30.148 --> 00:28:30.868 It's more than comfortable. 00:28:30.878 --> 00:28:34.418 I get very uncomfortable trying to suggest to anyone that they should. 00:28:34.648 --> 00:28:35.368 Sam: It is. 00:28:35.398 --> 00:28:36.298 It's not just comfort. 00:28:36.298 --> 00:28:40.593 It's a, it's a goddamn awful habit that I have, yes, of being 00:28:40.593 --> 00:28:43.273 didactic, Joe, I do apologize, but so 00:28:44.003 --> 00:28:48.593 to return to the subjective experience of existence, um, one of the ways I can tell 00:28:48.593 --> 00:28:52.603 I'm making progress is ironically that, 00:28:52.825 --> 00:28:57.465 that I'm containing things more, that I don't feel the need to tell 00:28:57.465 --> 00:28:59.375 this big old story to someone. 00:28:59.615 --> 00:29:00.415 It's like, Oh no, no, no. 00:29:00.415 --> 00:29:01.525 I'm doing that work. 00:29:01.595 --> 00:29:01.875 Yeah. 00:29:01.875 --> 00:29:02.705 I'm processing it. 00:29:02.705 --> 00:29:05.585 And I'm not saying we should do our therapy and clam up and 00:29:05.595 --> 00:29:06.855 never bother anyone else with it. 00:29:07.465 --> 00:29:11.525 But one of the, one of the problems I had was still working on, obviously, 00:29:11.525 --> 00:29:15.215 was poor boundaries and like not containing and holding enough stuff. 00:29:15.645 --> 00:29:18.525 And so getting, so that's just one way to measure it. 00:29:18.525 --> 00:29:21.545 For other people, they're containing and holding too much and the measure 00:29:21.545 --> 00:29:23.285 will be they are sharing more. 00:29:23.285 --> 00:29:23.615 But 00:29:23.845 --> 00:29:27.965 Joe: it sounds corny, but it's as simple as, tell me if I'm wrong. 00:29:28.215 --> 00:29:28.485 Yeah. 00:29:29.855 --> 00:29:30.975 It was horrible. 00:29:31.045 --> 00:29:31.495 Yes. 00:29:31.535 --> 00:29:33.735 But you left the boarding school? 00:29:33.765 --> 00:29:34.195 Yes. 00:29:34.715 --> 00:29:36.375 You're never going back there? 00:29:36.415 --> 00:29:36.495 No. 00:29:37.550 --> 00:29:40.330 And it's like, that's in the past now, Sam. 00:29:40.350 --> 00:29:43.030 You're never going back there again, Sam. 00:29:43.100 --> 00:29:48.310 And it's like, some of this stuff we're walking around, I can't, a psychologist 00:29:48.310 --> 00:29:52.400 might be able to explain why you are certain ways because of those 00:29:52.400 --> 00:29:54.150 childhood boarding school experiences. 00:29:54.715 --> 00:29:58.195 And why are you in the world trying to use the most words and get the 00:29:58.195 --> 00:30:00.065 most attention or whatever, right? 00:30:00.065 --> 00:30:01.475 Sam: Well, it's not hard to see, yeah. 00:30:01.545 --> 00:30:03.435 Joe: I struggle to see some of that stuff. 00:30:03.505 --> 00:30:05.165 That's why I wouldn't be a very good therapist. 00:30:05.255 --> 00:30:08.815 But I can understand from doing therapy that they're gonna... 00:30:09.355 --> 00:30:14.655 The part of the job for you is to close the door for one last time on 00:30:14.655 --> 00:30:18.805 that boarding school and really feel in your body that you're now safe 00:30:19.175 --> 00:30:23.755 and you're not being trained to be a paramilitary Hare Krishna kid, you know? 00:30:23.815 --> 00:30:24.115 That's right. 00:30:25.035 --> 00:30:26.225 Only you can do that. 00:30:26.245 --> 00:30:27.215 The therapist can't do it. 00:30:27.225 --> 00:30:28.055 I can't do it. 00:30:28.155 --> 00:30:28.825 Ali: They can say it. 00:30:28.825 --> 00:30:30.215 Like they can suggest like, yeah. 00:30:30.215 --> 00:30:31.865 They can't say it in the first session. 00:30:31.875 --> 00:30:32.545 Not in the first session. 00:30:32.565 --> 00:30:32.785 No. 00:30:32.785 --> 00:30:34.085 They've got to hear you 00:30:34.085 --> 00:30:34.245 Joe: for 00:30:34.245 --> 00:30:34.745 Ali: years. 00:30:34.755 --> 00:30:37.215 You've got to, yeah, you've got to really feel it. 00:30:37.215 --> 00:30:40.915 And then like, yeah, they can direct you towards you are safe now. 00:30:40.945 --> 00:30:44.775 I certainly have had my psychologist tell me, yes, but like if I'm, you 00:30:44.775 --> 00:30:47.475 know, talking about a perceived threat, yeah, but you're safe now you're 00:30:47.475 --> 00:30:49.815 here in an, in a very grounding way. 00:30:49.815 --> 00:30:52.115 It's like you're in this room with me. 00:30:52.265 --> 00:30:53.305 You are safe now. 00:30:53.355 --> 00:30:54.545 Even though this person, you know. 00:30:54.955 --> 00:30:57.835 He's not here anymore or whatever, you know, you are safe right in this moment. 00:30:57.875 --> 00:31:01.165 Sometimes I actually just really need that grounding in that moment. 00:31:01.165 --> 00:31:04.445 And he's very good at that and picking the time and place to do that. 00:31:04.475 --> 00:31:04.765 Yeah, 00:31:05.015 --> 00:31:05.365 Sam: that's right. 00:31:05.365 --> 00:31:08.495 They have, they have to avoid editorializing as much as possible, 00:31:08.975 --> 00:31:12.265 but, but it's like, for example, to hear from Adam was very affirming, 00:31:12.575 --> 00:31:15.315 you know, recently he just, he really didn't want to say it, but he kind 00:31:15.315 --> 00:31:17.335 of eventually felt the need to do it. 00:31:17.895 --> 00:31:19.465 That C. 00:31:19.755 --> 00:31:21.415 You are a competent pair of hands. 00:31:21.805 --> 00:31:23.445 You, other people can trust you. 00:31:23.795 --> 00:31:25.405 You can trust yourself. 00:31:25.625 --> 00:31:25.795 You 00:31:27.555 --> 00:31:29.075 Joe: don't get that out of them easily. 00:31:29.075 --> 00:31:29.845 Sam: No, no, no. 00:31:30.085 --> 00:31:30.665 I get quite a bit 00:31:30.865 --> 00:31:31.135 Ali: of that. 00:31:31.135 --> 00:31:33.885 Joe: Like yours is a much more of a booster than mine and Sam's. 00:31:34.285 --> 00:31:35.555 Cause you're not doing psychoanalysis, 00:31:35.845 --> 00:31:35.945 Ali: are you? 00:31:36.015 --> 00:31:38.265 Oh, no, there's, that's, there's an element of that, but it's 00:31:38.265 --> 00:31:39.745 more, but he definitely does. 00:31:39.885 --> 00:31:43.495 Cause so much of mine is self doubt and, you know, and criticism and, 00:31:43.515 --> 00:31:46.935 you know, imperfectionism and where, and he's, you know, sometimes I just 00:31:47.175 --> 00:31:50.805 objectively need somebody to take a step back and go, here is the evidence. 00:31:51.555 --> 00:31:51.825 Yeah. 00:31:51.825 --> 00:31:54.055 No, like when I'm going on about something that I've done wrong or fucked 00:31:54.055 --> 00:31:56.765 up or whatever, he's like, yeah, but you've got to show me the evidence. 00:31:56.775 --> 00:32:00.375 Show me the evidence where you have such this, this narrative of. 00:32:00.775 --> 00:32:03.505 You know, and so he makes me argue it out with myself, like, why am I, 00:32:03.615 --> 00:32:06.545 why have I, you know, is, you know, Ali, this horrible piece of shit? 00:32:06.785 --> 00:32:09.995 She's not like, you know, but I have to argue it out to get to that point. 00:32:09.995 --> 00:32:11.475 And that's how I process things. 00:32:11.475 --> 00:32:13.185 And that works really effectively for me. 00:32:13.535 --> 00:32:16.635 Sam: It sounds like a very workable method for the particular 00:32:16.635 --> 00:32:18.585 circumstances you're dealing with. 00:32:19.015 --> 00:32:24.990 Whereas I couldn't even, I found it very hard to access the self blame at all. 00:32:25.030 --> 00:32:27.560 Like it took, it took a long, well, I mean, no, it would come and go, 00:32:27.610 --> 00:32:32.740 but it was, it was often neurotic and kind of too much in the self pity 00:32:32.750 --> 00:32:34.890 area and not enough in the truth area. 00:32:34.960 --> 00:32:38.150 So it's like actually getting to a point where you were willing to say 00:32:38.520 --> 00:32:41.190 that where I was willing to say in therapy, no, I am a piece of shit that 00:32:41.190 --> 00:32:42.990 I, you know, and I've let everyone down. 00:32:43.640 --> 00:32:46.000 It's like, actually that took a bit of work to actually get there. 00:32:46.410 --> 00:32:50.810 And, and it was a necessary, like, um, cause it's not a true 00:32:50.810 --> 00:32:52.480 statement either, but it's like. 00:32:53.230 --> 00:32:55.010 Whereas a lot of women will go straight in with that. 00:32:55.160 --> 00:32:55.530 Ali: Yeah. 00:32:55.570 --> 00:32:57.000 Like, yeah, that's, that's my default. 00:32:57.010 --> 00:32:57.990 Like program is okay. 00:32:58.000 --> 00:32:58.930 What have I done wrong? 00:32:59.090 --> 00:33:00.170 How have I fucked this up? 00:33:00.370 --> 00:33:01.810 You know, like, yeah, yeah. 00:33:01.810 --> 00:33:02.860 How can I make this right? 00:33:03.150 --> 00:33:03.340 Yeah. 00:33:03.340 --> 00:33:04.220 That's the default. 00:33:04.230 --> 00:33:05.940 That's not the resolution. 00:33:05.950 --> 00:33:06.910 The default is that. 00:33:06.910 --> 00:33:08.770 And so it's then actually, okay, well. 00:33:09.300 --> 00:33:12.660 Is that really RA based in any sort of rational That's right. 00:33:12.690 --> 00:33:16.110 You know, thought process and it's, it's not, most of the time it's not. 00:33:16.140 --> 00:33:17.100 No, it's never, yeah. 00:33:17.190 --> 00:33:17.490 And, and 00:33:17.490 --> 00:33:21.870 Sam: adjusting the, you know, like I, I heard a Jungian say on a podcast that, 00:33:22.570 --> 00:33:27.685 you know, Jungians will put a lot of work into deconstruction and they tend 00:33:27.685 --> 00:33:32.475 to see that as their main or even only priority a lot of the time And you got 00:33:32.475 --> 00:33:35.985 to remember that some of the Jung's original patients a lot like Freud's 00:33:36.335 --> 00:33:39.505 middle class women who badly needed Deconstructing they were too constructed. 00:33:39.535 --> 00:33:43.355 They were too put together. 00:33:43.385 --> 00:33:48.630 Their identity was Far too defined and all of their roles and relations 00:33:48.630 --> 00:33:52.860 to others was all, in other words, they were living in a, a corset. 00:33:53.220 --> 00:33:53.310 Yeah. 00:33:53.310 --> 00:33:56.850 If you were, and it needed to be deconstructed and pulled apart. 00:33:57.510 --> 00:34:03.180 But let's say someone else comes in, they're a, they're an, they're an addict. 00:34:03.300 --> 00:34:04.680 They're sleeping on couches. 00:34:04.680 --> 00:34:07.290 They're this, they're that, that person does not need deconstruction. 00:34:07.290 --> 00:34:08.460 They need construction. 00:34:08.460 --> 00:34:08.520 Yeah. 00:34:08.820 --> 00:34:09.960 And it's like, ah, okay. 00:34:09.960 --> 00:34:11.850 So having a really important realization early on. 00:34:12.525 --> 00:34:15.365 Uh, no, five years into therapy that I came across this information that was 00:34:15.365 --> 00:34:18.435 like, Oh, different people are going to need different things in therapy. 00:34:18.445 --> 00:34:22.235 It should have been obvious to me and, but you know, so, yeah, and I think, I 00:34:22.645 --> 00:34:27.325 Joe: think we should wrap it up, but I think it comes down to what 00:34:27.325 --> 00:34:29.065 I would call the final level boss. 00:34:29.695 --> 00:34:30.025 Yeah. 00:34:30.045 --> 00:34:33.415 So I'm, when I met my therapist, I was 40 full of fear and 00:34:38.735 --> 00:34:41.225 The last thing I needed was another pat on the back. 00:34:41.435 --> 00:34:42.185 Yeah, there's a huge back, 00:34:42.225 --> 00:34:46.425 Sam: there's a back pat trend at the moment. 00:34:46.805 --> 00:34:49.445 I wanted to say this Joe, I nearly, nearly got to it earlier. 00:34:49.905 --> 00:34:53.125 I keep coming across references to the pat on the back in therapy, and 00:34:53.125 --> 00:34:55.865 I think, yeah, there might be too much of that going on at the moment. 00:34:55.995 --> 00:34:56.595 I had those 00:34:56.595 --> 00:34:58.565 Joe: therapists in my 20s and 30s. 00:34:58.615 --> 00:35:01.765 Um, all women, like, you're doing okay. 00:35:02.070 --> 00:35:02.750 You've got it. 00:35:02.750 --> 00:35:03.310 Isn't it hard? 00:35:03.310 --> 00:35:04.230 You've got bipolar. 00:35:04.330 --> 00:35:04.740 Yeah. 00:35:04.970 --> 00:35:05.515 And I just sat down. 00:35:05.515 --> 00:35:05.685 How do 00:35:05.685 --> 00:35:06.910 Ali: you feel about that? 00:35:06.910 --> 00:35:08.340 And I'm like, I know I feel like shit. 00:35:08.340 --> 00:35:11.260 I just want someone to practically tell me how to live my life. 00:35:11.340 --> 00:35:15.810 That was my huge argument for, yeah, with why I didn't think historically 00:35:15.810 --> 00:35:16.840 that therapy worked for me. 00:35:16.840 --> 00:35:17.660 I knew what had happened. 00:35:17.660 --> 00:35:18.450 Sam: Don't tell me it's okay. 00:35:18.450 --> 00:35:19.290 I'm being a disaster. 00:35:19.540 --> 00:35:20.240 I don't want to be a disaster. 00:35:20.300 --> 00:35:20.400 Yeah. 00:35:20.580 --> 00:35:20.830 Yeah. 00:35:20.830 --> 00:35:20.900 It's 00:35:21.140 --> 00:35:21.970 Ali: more the day to day. 00:35:21.970 --> 00:35:23.040 I'm really struggling with it. 00:35:23.040 --> 00:35:25.080 So I know all the, I can rationalize. 00:35:25.305 --> 00:35:28.165 It's everything horrible thing that I can understand very quickly. 00:35:28.175 --> 00:35:28.505 Okay. 00:35:28.505 --> 00:35:28.675 Yeah. 00:35:28.675 --> 00:35:30.045 This, this came from my childhood. 00:35:30.225 --> 00:35:31.895 This pattern of behavior has developed from that. 00:35:31.905 --> 00:35:35.165 I can put those bits and pieces together quickly. 00:35:35.165 --> 00:35:38.375 And as my psychologist would say, almost too quickly to my detriment, 00:35:38.405 --> 00:35:39.015 Sam: I was struggling Yeah. 00:35:39.605 --> 00:35:39.775 So 00:35:39.775 --> 00:35:41.555 Ali: whereas I can put it all together and have the 00:35:41.555 --> 00:35:43.115 understanding of it really quickly. 00:35:43.115 --> 00:35:46.225 It's just, it doesn't translate into really functional behaviors as an adult. 00:35:47.875 --> 00:35:49.315 Joe: Intellectualized feelings. 00:35:49.555 --> 00:35:50.365 I can't feel them. 00:35:50.875 --> 00:35:50.935 Mm. 00:35:51.085 --> 00:35:52.405 So I can turn them into words. 00:35:52.435 --> 00:35:52.705 Yeah. 00:35:52.710 --> 00:35:55.525 I do this, I'll do it on this show a lot, but I don't feel anything. 00:35:55.555 --> 00:35:56.065 That's right. 00:35:56.125 --> 00:35:56.665 That's a tough one. 00:35:56.665 --> 00:35:58.015 But yeah, I'll, yeah, I'll finish up. 00:35:58.015 --> 00:36:02.375 But like the final level boss concept for me and with me and Peter is, You 00:36:02.375 --> 00:36:07.005 finally get into the room and you sit down and you say, Hi, how are you? 00:36:07.175 --> 00:36:09.965 And she says, it doesn't matter how I am, Joe. 00:36:10.305 --> 00:36:12.375 And then sits there and just stares at you. 00:36:12.375 --> 00:36:14.755 And she's got this real intensity about her. 00:36:15.755 --> 00:36:20.945 And then there's an uncomfortable silence and it's like, Oh, so 00:36:20.945 --> 00:36:23.065 what do I need to talk about? 00:36:24.365 --> 00:36:25.065 Nothing. 00:36:25.255 --> 00:36:33.005 Uncomfortable silence and just waits, but intense, like incredibly intense eyes. 00:36:33.860 --> 00:36:37.260 And it's a nice environment, and you're in a nice part of town, and you're sitting 00:36:37.260 --> 00:36:45.370 on a nice chair, and then it's just like, your brain, all the social mores are gone. 00:36:45.450 --> 00:36:45.940 That's right. 00:36:46.900 --> 00:36:47.990 We don't need to be polite. 00:36:48.040 --> 00:36:50.140 You're never going to find out, is she married? 00:36:50.500 --> 00:36:51.410 Does she have kids? 00:36:51.410 --> 00:36:52.380 Is she a lesbian? 00:36:52.380 --> 00:36:53.550 Like, I'm never... 00:36:55.320 --> 00:36:59.490 I will never in this environment have to ask you a single question about 00:36:59.490 --> 00:37:03.090 your own life or try and make sure the conversation flows two ways. 00:37:03.110 --> 00:37:04.840 This is not a two way conversation. 00:37:05.270 --> 00:37:09.990 This is an exploration and it's like, all right, so why am I so scared about 00:37:10.335 --> 00:37:16.935 This, you know, and, and we get into it and three years later, I, I just do 00:37:16.935 --> 00:37:21.355 not walk around with as much, as much, I've talked about my anxieties a lot 00:37:21.365 --> 00:37:25.975 on this show, and some of that is my coping mechanism, which is I turn it 00:37:25.975 --> 00:37:29.685 into a Woody Allen esque neurotic humor. 00:37:29.745 --> 00:37:30.015 Yeah. 00:37:30.045 --> 00:37:30.665 Yeah, right. 00:37:30.715 --> 00:37:31.265 Sam: Picaresque 00:37:31.455 --> 00:37:32.215 Joe: escapades. 00:37:32.255 --> 00:37:37.955 But what I'm actually feeling in my chest and my gut is a lot less fear and that's 00:37:38.135 --> 00:37:43.015 partly my addiction recovery work And it's partly the work that I've done in 00:37:43.015 --> 00:37:49.635 therapy and now finally three years later I can get into stuff from my adolescence 00:37:50.185 --> 00:37:55.915 That is the fundamental, like, I finally hit pay dirt three years in, you know, 00:37:56.195 --> 00:37:57.985 so that's how I know therapy is working. 00:37:58.145 --> 00:38:02.185 Um, I'm finally talking about the shit that I really needed to talk about, 00:38:02.235 --> 00:38:04.195 but I took me three years to get there. 00:38:04.425 --> 00:38:04.545 Yeah, 00:38:05.325 --> 00:38:06.025 Sam: I'll finish on that. 00:38:06.145 --> 00:38:07.615 Yeah, makes a lot of sense to me. 00:38:07.675 --> 00:38:08.235 Go on Ali. 00:38:08.495 --> 00:38:08.605 I was 00:38:08.615 --> 00:38:10.885 Ali: gonna say three years is about the mark, like I went in 00:38:10.905 --> 00:38:14.300 after my hospitalization and I was like Very optimistically, 00:38:14.380 --> 00:38:15.730 I'll get this done in six months. 00:38:15.730 --> 00:38:15.900 Right. 00:38:15.900 --> 00:38:17.680 And my psychologist laughed at me. 00:38:19.390 --> 00:38:22.430 And he's just, he's like, he's like, well, look, you can be as diligent 00:38:22.520 --> 00:38:25.770 as you like, but you know, that's, that's pretty, that's optimistic. 00:38:25.770 --> 00:38:27.710 He goes, I'm not saying it can't be done, but like, you know, 00:38:27.890 --> 00:38:28.980 and I said, well, how long? 00:38:28.980 --> 00:38:31.210 Like, you know, I don't want to be doing this for like 20 years. 00:38:31.410 --> 00:38:32.060 And he said, three years. 00:38:32.460 --> 00:38:36.010 He's like three years, you'll see the, so I'm a, I'm sort of at the 00:38:36.010 --> 00:38:40.320 two and a half year mark now, so I'm huge difference almost there. 00:38:40.350 --> 00:38:40.890 Not quite, 00:38:40.890 --> 00:38:41.250 Sam: but almost. 00:38:41.250 --> 00:38:42.060 So final thought. 00:38:42.120 --> 00:38:42.680 Yeah, man. 00:38:42.740 --> 00:38:48.080 Uh, look, I, I wish someone had said it's gonna take more than three years. 00:38:48.140 --> 00:38:50.990 You know, I think I needed to hear that at an earlier point. 00:38:51.660 --> 00:38:53.820 Um, but I think honestly, my therapist might have had 00:38:54.030 --> 00:38:55.530 higher expectations than that. 00:38:55.530 --> 00:39:01.550 But I think I proved to be a very tough case and that I managed to, uh, I'm not 00:39:01.550 --> 00:39:05.870 saying that like that, The therapeutic challenges themselves were necessarily 00:39:05.870 --> 00:39:11.820 more difficult, but I think I was very good at obstructing the work, and very 00:39:11.820 --> 00:39:16.706 good at avoiding it, and that it took Adam a long time to, for example, one day say, 00:39:16.706 --> 00:39:20.870 You know Sam, I think you were, did one of the rare editorials, you know, 00:39:20.870 --> 00:39:26.500 and it really goes in when he does it, you know, I think you um, I think 00:39:26.500 --> 00:39:30.580 you were befuddled and exasperated. 00:39:31.350 --> 00:39:37.690 by the world and adults most of the time and I think ever since you have 00:39:37.690 --> 00:39:44.870 been exasperating and befuddling others including me and you can keep doing 00:39:44.870 --> 00:39:50.790 that but I don't think you want to and I think you've exasperated every one 00:39:50.790 --> 00:39:54.120 of your partners you've exasperated your friends you've exasperated your 00:39:54.120 --> 00:40:00.525 employers yes yes yes and then when I came across ADD ASD, it was like, this 00:40:00.595 --> 00:40:02.185 is why you're exasperating everyone. 00:40:02.195 --> 00:40:05.435 Well, yes, but no, there's other reasons. 00:40:06.315 --> 00:40:11.745 And one of the most remarkable findings in this process has been, if you'd have 00:40:11.745 --> 00:40:16.865 asked me at the start, am I persuaded by the idea that childhood of events 00:40:16.895 --> 00:40:18.755 will, you know, impact adulthood? 00:40:19.905 --> 00:40:25.045 I'd have said, of course, you know, but I don't know actually how convinced I was. 00:40:25.125 --> 00:40:27.685 And honestly, I think I've been resisting the conclusion. 00:40:29.150 --> 00:40:32.760 I've, I've ended up many times just continually coming back to this. 00:40:33.565 --> 00:40:35.785 To this illusion that like, it's all happening in the present. 00:40:35.875 --> 00:40:39.445 And that the self is like much the same from moment to moment and I think we 00:40:39.485 --> 00:40:43.345 stubbornly, a lot of people, myself clearly more than most, stubbornly 00:40:43.345 --> 00:40:46.465 hold on to this idea of the integrity of the self and that, you know, this 00:40:46.485 --> 00:40:49.755 illusion of the separate self, you know, cling, I cling to it as well as being 00:40:49.755 --> 00:40:51.665 very attracted to getting rid of it. 00:40:51.695 --> 00:40:52.515 That's most humans. 00:40:52.575 --> 00:40:56.945 Most humans and the ego is so strong, you know, the determination to 00:40:57.145 --> 00:40:58.945 craft it and shape it and own it. 00:40:59.335 --> 00:41:01.680 Um, and you know, Thank you. 00:41:02.270 --> 00:41:05.840 I think that's gotten in the way of doing the work, honestly, and it's taken a long 00:41:05.840 --> 00:41:11.700 time to go, No, no, no, these childhood events, greatly impacting the present, but 00:41:11.700 --> 00:41:14.870 actually recognising that I'm a different person then, and then, and then, and 00:41:14.870 --> 00:41:16.950 then, has been incredibly difficult to do. 00:41:17.310 --> 00:41:21.660 Recognising that I can change, recognising that, that I wanted to change. 00:41:22.600 --> 00:41:26.720 So, that's the really, the most helpful stuff I can offer, I think, to others. 00:41:28.145 --> 00:41:30.195 You, you probably do want to change. 00:41:30.255 --> 00:41:34.065 You might be struggling to believe it's possible, but I'll, I'm here 00:41:34.065 --> 00:41:36.775 to tell you, no, it not only is it possible, it's inevitable that you're 00:41:36.775 --> 00:41:38.425 going to change one way or the other. 00:41:38.585 --> 00:41:41.725 Let's try and craft that in a positive direction as far as we can. 00:41:42.135 --> 00:41:42.845 And, and, 00:41:42.865 --> 00:41:46.945 but also, um, I've got a very unaspirational statement to offer as 00:41:46.945 --> 00:41:52.785 well though, which is that the end result of therapy may be to accept 00:41:52.975 --> 00:41:55.145 ordinary human unhappiness, which was. 00:41:55.655 --> 00:41:56.385 What was said so long. 00:41:56.405 --> 00:41:57.105 That's all I want, Sam. 00:41:57.555 --> 00:41:57.855 Joe: Yeah. 00:41:58.215 --> 00:42:00.535 I mean, I keep saying, we'll finish on this. 00:42:00.535 --> 00:42:00.815 Yeah. 00:42:00.855 --> 00:42:04.285 But, uh, look, the childhood stuff. 00:42:04.305 --> 00:42:04.535 Yeah. 00:42:04.535 --> 00:42:05.325 It's a cliche. 00:42:05.345 --> 00:42:06.755 We spoke about it in my last session. 00:42:06.755 --> 00:42:07.025 Yeah. 00:42:07.545 --> 00:42:08.995 It's a cliche for a reason. 00:42:09.045 --> 00:42:09.305 It is. 00:42:09.805 --> 00:42:14.725 And the one thing I learned in addiction recovery, things are cliches for a reason. 00:42:14.725 --> 00:42:17.265 Sam: And the same themes keep occurring in that work. 00:42:17.295 --> 00:42:21.550 Joe: There's a reason I don't pick up a drink one day at a time. 00:42:22.050 --> 00:42:27.080 Now that's a cliché, there's a, it's incredibly helpful for 00:42:27.080 --> 00:42:28.780 me to remember that one cliché. 00:42:28.870 --> 00:42:29.420 That's right. 00:42:29.610 --> 00:42:32.300 Uh, and in Diction Recovery there's hundreds of them. 00:42:32.370 --> 00:42:36.690 In therapy the one big cliché is it's all about your childhood or 00:42:36.690 --> 00:42:38.130 it's all about blaming your parents. 00:42:38.150 --> 00:42:38.510 Yes. 00:42:38.600 --> 00:42:43.510 But each individual's journey, just remember that you're going to start 00:42:43.560 --> 00:42:47.700 in good self analysis with a blank screen and no one's ever going to 00:42:47.700 --> 00:42:49.190 tell you to talk about anything. 00:42:50.015 --> 00:42:54.505 And if you end up in your childhood, it's because you realize that the 00:42:54.505 --> 00:42:56.765 other stuff was a distraction. 00:42:57.605 --> 00:42:58.175 Sam: Yes. 00:42:58.385 --> 00:42:58.845 That's right. 00:42:58.845 --> 00:43:03.255 And please, if, if, yeah, anyone's listening, going to therapy next, just, 00:43:03.255 --> 00:43:04.655 yeah, get into some childhood stuff. 00:43:04.905 --> 00:43:08.025 You know, like there was a thing that I'd be wanting to tell Adam 00:43:08.435 --> 00:43:11.365 and I'd told my, and I've been putting it off for weeks, right? 00:43:11.940 --> 00:43:14.960 And I told myself, Oh, this thing's just a little curiosity that he 00:43:14.960 --> 00:43:16.280 might be interested in, right? 00:43:16.650 --> 00:43:22.150 I, look, here's a little curio, a little knick knack I found, a little 00:43:23.040 --> 00:43:25.640 object for your mantel shelf, Adam. 00:43:25.690 --> 00:43:29.230 You know, this will be of interest to you as a professional. 00:43:30.030 --> 00:43:33.730 And then that one little thing was the entire 50 minutes 00:43:33.760 --> 00:43:35.210 and it was a hell of a ride. 00:43:35.260 --> 00:43:36.660 And I was like, Oh, okay. 00:43:37.835 --> 00:43:40.115 What an odd little story to tell yourself. 00:43:40.115 --> 00:43:40.175 Yeah. 00:43:40.205 --> 00:43:44.165 That like, oh, uh, this is for your amusement and dilatation, Adam. 00:43:44.195 --> 00:43:46.505 I'm sure you'll enjoy this little thing. 00:43:46.505 --> 00:43:47.225 And it's like, no, no. 00:43:47.225 --> 00:43:47.285 You 00:43:47.290 --> 00:43:48.245 Joe: dunno what that was for you. 00:43:48.250 --> 00:43:48.475 Yeah. 00:43:48.515 --> 00:43:48.815 Yeah. 00:43:48.965 --> 00:43:54.815 You dunno what the citizen Kane Rosebud sleigh is, but you probably have got one. 00:43:55.255 --> 00:43:55.585 Yeah. 00:43:55.615 --> 00:43:55.945 Right. 00:43:55.975 --> 00:43:56.995 Alright, let's finish up. 00:43:56.995 --> 00:43:57.115 Yep. 00:43:57.215 --> 00:43:57.955 See you guys. 00:43:57.955 --> 00:43:58.885 See you next week. 00:43:58.915 --> 00:43:59.265 See you. 00:43:59.265 --> 00:43:59.895 Love your work. 00:43:59.895 --> 00:44:00.035 Sam: See you. 00:44:00.415 --> 00:44:00.635 Bye 00:44:00.775 --> 00:44:00.995 Joe: Bye. 00:44:01.015 --> 00:44:01.235 Bye.