WEBVTT 00:00:00.192 --> 00:00:05.052 Matt Abrahams: Know your stuff, practice, and then just do it and be there. 00:00:05.592 --> 00:00:08.531 My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach Strategic Communication at 00:00:08.531 --> 00:00:10.182 Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:00:10.372 --> 00:00:13.761 Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:18.746 --> 00:00:20.806 Today I'm really excited to speak with Kai Ryssdal. 00:00:21.146 --> 00:00:24.636 Kai is the host and senior editor of Marketplace, an Emmy and Peabody 00:00:24.636 --> 00:00:28.416 Award-winning daily show where he translates complex economic and 00:00:28.416 --> 00:00:33.526 business news into engaging, accessible conversations for millions of listeners. 00:00:33.865 --> 00:00:37.276 Before Marketplace, Kai spent eight years in the United States Navy 00:00:37.296 --> 00:00:40.435 and later served as a member of the United States Foreign Service. 00:00:40.536 --> 00:00:43.845 He's renowned for his signature conversational delivery and 00:00:43.875 --> 00:00:45.895 deep economic expertise. 00:00:46.195 --> 00:00:47.225 So welcome, Kai. 00:00:47.325 --> 00:00:49.525 I am a big listener, to your show. 00:00:49.555 --> 00:00:54.456 I enjoy it every day, and a big thank you to Mary Beth Kirchner 00:00:54.456 --> 00:00:56.175 and JJ Yore for the introduction. 00:00:56.235 --> 00:00:56.756 Thanks for being here. 00:00:56.805 --> 00:00:57.965 Kai Ryssdal: I'm absolutely pleased to. 00:00:58.096 --> 00:00:58.416 Matt Abrahams: Okay. 00:00:58.426 --> 00:00:59.105 Shall we get started? 00:00:59.166 --> 00:00:59.366 Kai Ryssdal: Yeah. 00:00:59.466 --> 00:01:00.016 Matt Abrahams: All right. 00:01:00.476 --> 00:01:03.906 Uh, you've got a unique gift of making sense of a lot of really 00:01:03.956 --> 00:01:06.566 complex, detailed information. 00:01:07.116 --> 00:01:09.626 A lot of the people listening in are in similar situations where they 00:01:09.626 --> 00:01:12.655 have technical, financial, scientific information they have to get across. 00:01:12.956 --> 00:01:16.166 How do you think about making that content accessible? 00:01:16.466 --> 00:01:19.076 Kai Ryssdal: It's important to understand that I am not 00:01:19.116 --> 00:01:20.646 a business and economics guy. 00:01:21.106 --> 00:01:23.765 I'm a history and political science guy from way back, right? 00:01:23.806 --> 00:01:27.826 I have not taken economics course number one in college or in graduate school. 00:01:28.346 --> 00:01:31.846 And until I got the job at Marketplace, I hadn't really given it much thought. 00:01:32.335 --> 00:01:36.406 So when I sit down and this holds true for my entire time at Marketplace, when I sit 00:01:36.406 --> 00:01:38.005 down to write the show, I do two things. 00:01:38.495 --> 00:01:41.406 I have to make it make sense to myself what I'm saying, right? 00:01:41.406 --> 00:01:44.446 So obviously I have to do some research and understand what it is, and then 00:01:44.796 --> 00:01:46.026 figure out how I'm gonna explain it. 00:01:46.306 --> 00:01:48.936 And then, and this is the God's honest truth I think about how I 00:01:48.936 --> 00:01:50.436 would help my mother understand it. 00:01:50.615 --> 00:01:55.786 My mom is an 86-year-old woman who, this is true, does not have an ATM card. 00:01:56.286 --> 00:01:59.676 Goes to the bank every Friday afternoon and cashes a check for $100 00:01:59.696 --> 00:02:00.896 to tide her over till next Friday. 00:02:01.346 --> 00:02:04.636 So if I can make it make sense to her then I think I'm doing all right. 00:02:04.835 --> 00:02:08.365 The caveat and the catch with that, of course, is that we 00:02:08.366 --> 00:02:10.806 have really sophisticated listeners to Marketplace, right? 00:02:10.835 --> 00:02:12.785 We have folks who work on Wall Street. 00:02:12.816 --> 00:02:14.126 We have folks who work in the industry. 00:02:14.126 --> 00:02:17.965 We have folks who work in every possible slice of this economy, 00:02:17.985 --> 00:02:20.105 and they understand in depth the things that I'm talking about. 00:02:20.436 --> 00:02:23.375 So make it understandable, but don't dumb it down. 00:02:23.466 --> 00:02:24.355 That's the challenge. 00:02:24.686 --> 00:02:25.006 Matt Abrahams: Right. 00:02:25.266 --> 00:02:27.455 And are there particular techniques that you rely on? 00:02:27.486 --> 00:02:29.586 Analogies, stories? 00:02:29.586 --> 00:02:30.706 Kai Ryssdal: Just a turn of phrase. 00:02:30.706 --> 00:02:35.546 This is sort of overly simplistic, but radio audio, video aside, right, 'cause 00:02:35.546 --> 00:02:40.616 that's where podcasts are going or already are, is a distinctly aural medium. 00:02:41.016 --> 00:02:43.106 And so it has to resonate with people. 00:02:43.106 --> 00:02:46.656 It has to come off my tongue in a way that I know what I'm talking about, and 00:02:46.656 --> 00:02:49.975 then it has to land with them in a way that they're gonna be able to absorb it 00:02:50.276 --> 00:02:54.986 so that they're not trying to process the thing I just said while they're 00:02:54.986 --> 00:02:56.386 listening to the thing I'm saying now. 00:02:56.506 --> 00:02:58.466 So it's a little bit of wordplay, it's a little bit of humor, it's 00:02:58.476 --> 00:03:03.286 a little bit of self-deprecation, and then the nuts and bolts, right? 00:03:03.546 --> 00:03:04.936 Matt Abrahams: And you're so good at doing that. 00:03:04.946 --> 00:03:08.345 I really appreciate this idea that it's not just landing what you're saying 00:03:08.356 --> 00:03:11.945 in the moment, but you don't want it to distract them from what comes next. 00:03:11.955 --> 00:03:14.295 Kai Ryssdal: So that's the difference between audio and print, right? 00:03:14.295 --> 00:03:17.446 When I'm reading a, a newspaper article or a magazine article, if I 00:03:17.455 --> 00:03:20.255 realize that I've blipped out for a second and I can't remember what this 00:03:20.256 --> 00:03:21.925 guy's name is, I can scroll back. 00:03:22.085 --> 00:03:24.945 You can do that on a podcast, but you know, on broadcast audio you can't. 00:03:24.955 --> 00:03:28.735 And if you have to do it on podcast and in digital audio, you're kind 00:03:28.735 --> 00:03:30.225 of breaking the rhythm, you know? 00:03:30.625 --> 00:03:31.665 Matt Abrahams: Yeah, there is a rhythm to it. 00:03:31.665 --> 00:03:34.805 And you're very good at keeping things moving. 00:03:34.806 --> 00:03:36.696 There's a flow to the work you do. 00:03:36.935 --> 00:03:37.896 Are you conscious of that? 00:03:37.896 --> 00:03:37.946 Do you think about that? 00:03:37.946 --> 00:03:38.786 Kai Ryssdal: Oh, yeah, very much so. 00:03:38.836 --> 00:03:39.256 Very much so. 00:03:39.256 --> 00:03:39.786 Matt Abrahams: Tell me more about that. 00:03:39.796 --> 00:03:43.405 Kai Ryssdal: My job is to make everybody who's there at the beginning of 00:03:43.406 --> 00:03:46.086 the program or the beginning of the podcast or the beginning of whatever 00:03:46.086 --> 00:03:48.186 I'm doing, still be there at the end. 00:03:48.556 --> 00:03:50.996 So you weave that through the program. 00:03:50.996 --> 00:03:53.836 You make references to things you have said or are going to say. 00:03:54.116 --> 00:03:55.435 You talk about things that are coming up. 00:03:55.436 --> 00:03:57.855 Just make people still be there, you know? 00:03:57.856 --> 00:04:02.196 If you actually listen to a 28 minute and 45 second episode of Marketplace, 00:04:02.196 --> 00:04:06.215 which is how much time we have my total content, on days that don't have 00:04:06.216 --> 00:04:10.355 a lot of interviews and me content, my total contribution is three and a 00:04:10.356 --> 00:04:14.105 half, maybe four minutes, in 30 second chunks setting up our reporters, right? 00:04:14.445 --> 00:04:18.755 So my job is to make those reporters' stories sing, and to make people, at 00:04:18.755 --> 00:04:21.485 the end of my 30 second introduction, say, "Oh, wait, now I want to hear 00:04:21.485 --> 00:04:24.025 this story," and make them hang around for another three minutes 00:04:24.025 --> 00:04:25.115 and 30 seconds or whatever it is. 00:04:25.496 --> 00:04:27.375 And so that's sort of what I do. 00:04:27.385 --> 00:04:30.115 Matt Abrahams: When I teach my students, I use the analogy of being a tour guide. 00:04:30.115 --> 00:04:33.186 A good tour guide gets people excited and keeps them moving throughout 00:04:33.186 --> 00:04:34.256 and wanting to see what's next. 00:04:34.256 --> 00:04:34.306 Kai Ryssdal: You bet. 00:04:34.306 --> 00:04:35.316 But doesn't give it away. 00:04:35.356 --> 00:04:36.076 Matt Abrahams: That's exactly right. 00:04:36.076 --> 00:04:36.256 Kai Ryssdal: Right? 00:04:36.456 --> 00:04:37.926 'Cause if you give it away, then what are you even doing? 00:04:38.046 --> 00:04:38.516 Matt Abrahams: That's right. 00:04:38.516 --> 00:04:40.665 You have to make them curious without revealing too much. 00:04:40.665 --> 00:04:41.566 There's a skill to that. 00:04:41.735 --> 00:04:44.935 Speaking of the way your show runs we had Peter Sagal on, who did 00:04:45.235 --> 00:04:48.537 Wait Wait… Don't Tell Me!, and we talked about Introductions. 00:04:48.567 --> 00:04:51.577 Many of us are in situations where we have to introduce people. 00:04:51.707 --> 00:04:54.167 You do a lot of introductions, just like him. 00:04:54.517 --> 00:04:59.647 Do you have a way of introducing people that others could leverage? 00:04:59.927 --> 00:05:01.767 Kai Ryssdal: So first of all, just on my own personal experience and, 00:05:01.817 --> 00:05:03.987 and for those out there who wind up doing a lot of introductions 00:05:04.367 --> 00:05:05.867 don't read somebody's CV out loud. 00:05:05.877 --> 00:05:07.227 Just don't do that, please. 00:05:07.257 --> 00:05:09.297 not only is it mortifying, it's not edifying for the audience. 00:05:09.697 --> 00:05:14.267 Find something personal, find an anecdote, find something that's gonna make it stick. 00:05:14.277 --> 00:05:15.667 That's the only thing I can say. 00:05:15.677 --> 00:05:19.048 Make it relevant to the people to whom this person is 00:05:19.048 --> 00:05:20.167 going to be speaking, right? 00:05:20.528 --> 00:05:21.487 Introduce them. 00:05:21.697 --> 00:05:25.557 Make them make friends, you know, in, in as short a period as you have to do 00:05:25.557 --> 00:05:27.287 it because that's what you have to do. 00:05:27.287 --> 00:05:30.148 And when I'm setting up an interview, it's me and this person for the next four 00:05:30.148 --> 00:05:32.307 minutes, and the audience has to be there. 00:05:32.677 --> 00:05:38.037 And if you don't have the audience with you, then you've failed, honestly, right? 00:05:38.287 --> 00:05:40.827 And look, I'm a huge fan of Peter's and Peter does this really well, 00:05:40.877 --> 00:05:42.157 you know, and he does it with humor. 00:05:42.297 --> 00:05:44.837 He has the benefit actually of having the live audience, right? 00:05:44.837 --> 00:05:46.687 So he's got that feedback mechanism. 00:05:47.097 --> 00:05:50.218 Um, but you know, just make people make friends. 00:05:50.257 --> 00:05:50.758 That's it. 00:05:50.948 --> 00:05:52.357 Matt Abrahams: I like what you said. 00:05:52.357 --> 00:05:55.687 To me, a good introduction, and you hinted at this, is it's an invitation. 00:05:55.687 --> 00:05:57.927 It's an invitation … to wanna hear more. 00:05:57.977 --> 00:06:00.497 And you're setting the other person up, and anecdotes are great ways to do it. 00:06:00.917 --> 00:06:05.117 So you interview a wide range of people, from Fortune 500 CEOs to a small business 00:06:05.117 --> 00:06:10.087 owner, and your interviews often feel very conversational, not very threatening. 00:06:10.167 --> 00:06:14.207 Uh, how do you work to make that conversation happen? 00:06:14.447 --> 00:06:17.477 It feels like people are just talking to you even though there 00:06:17.487 --> 00:06:18.947 are many, many people listening in. 00:06:18.987 --> 00:06:21.347 Kai Ryssdal: So, this is a methodology question, right? 00:06:21.367 --> 00:06:21.737 Matt Abrahams: Yes. 00:06:21.807 --> 00:06:24.277 Kai Ryssdal: Obviously, there's a team of producers at Marketplace, 00:06:24.377 --> 00:06:26.897 who do the booking of the interview. 00:06:27.197 --> 00:06:31.157 They'll do sometimes an initial conversation with that person, and then 00:06:31.167 --> 00:06:34.027 sometimes, you know, actually think about the questions they wanna ask. 00:06:34.028 --> 00:06:35.518 And they give me basically a one-sheet. 00:06:35.738 --> 00:06:37.657 And they say, "Listen, this is why we're interviewing this person. 00:06:37.857 --> 00:06:40.738 Here are my thoughts on this, and here's a couple of questions." I 00:06:40.768 --> 00:06:42.937 take that, and I internalize it. 00:06:43.467 --> 00:06:47.102 And then I put it away And I will not go into a studio with a 00:06:47.102 --> 00:06:48.392 list of questions in front of me. 00:06:48.682 --> 00:06:52.192 I will have major points and things that really need to be said, especially 00:06:52.202 --> 00:06:53.042 if it's a big deal interview. 00:06:53.042 --> 00:06:55.402 Like, if I'm talking to Jay Powell you know, there's some things I have to 00:06:55.402 --> 00:06:57.022 ask him, and, and I'll note those down. 00:06:57.442 --> 00:07:00.912 But the name of the game is to be there. 00:07:00.942 --> 00:07:02.882 And by being there, I mean you have to listen. 00:07:03.322 --> 00:07:08.772 Because we can all hear when an interviewer is literally running down 00:07:08.772 --> 00:07:12.302 a list of questions, and has not paid attention to the answer preceding the 00:07:12.302 --> 00:07:13.572 next question, and just moves right on. 00:07:13.922 --> 00:07:14.892 And that makes me crazy. 00:07:15.082 --> 00:07:16.162 So be there. 00:07:16.172 --> 00:07:17.182 Be in the moment. 00:07:17.482 --> 00:07:18.832 Make it a conversation. 00:07:19.172 --> 00:07:22.491 understand that you are in charge, and you have to guide this person 00:07:22.492 --> 00:07:24.191 to where you want them to be. 00:07:24.612 --> 00:07:28.032 But it can't be just ticking through a list of questions, right? 00:07:28.312 --> 00:07:31.642 And sometimes the best question is an interrogatory. 00:07:31.711 --> 00:07:32.721 Tell me more about that. 00:07:32.841 --> 00:07:33.261 Oh? 00:07:33.731 --> 00:07:37.721 Or sometimes if it's a newsmaker who's blowing you off, come on, really? 00:07:38.051 --> 00:07:39.861 Just be there and be yourself. 00:07:40.312 --> 00:07:40.502 Matt Abrahams: Yeah. 00:07:40.511 --> 00:07:43.561 And connect what they're saying to what's important for you. 00:07:43.562 --> 00:07:46.752 Kai Ryssdal: And Marketplace has a very specific purpose, right? 00:07:46.962 --> 00:07:50.742 Our purpose is to raise the economic intelligence of the country. 00:07:50.932 --> 00:07:53.852 And so what you will hear in my interviews versus an interview that you 00:07:53.852 --> 00:07:58.382 hear on other shows or other podcasts is me going with that lens, right? 00:07:58.581 --> 00:08:01.441 Let's figure out what the economic slice of this, what the business slice 00:08:01.441 --> 00:08:06.731 of this is, and help people understand that part of what it is that they're 00:08:06.731 --> 00:08:08.121 gonna consume in the news that day. 00:08:08.481 --> 00:08:11.751 I'm incredibly conscious of that because that's our bread and butter, right? 00:08:12.051 --> 00:08:16.041 Our bread and butter is business and the economy as a lens to see the world. 00:08:16.805 --> 00:08:18.715 And that's what I do every day when I go into the studio. 00:08:19.155 --> 00:08:22.205 Matt Abrahams: So having a clear focus of what the goal is, the larger goal, 00:08:22.635 --> 00:08:27.615 being present and listening, and knowing that it's not just the questions you 00:08:27.615 --> 00:08:30.475 ask, but it's the responses to the question that keep it conversational. 00:08:30.475 --> 00:08:32.915 Kai Ryssdal: It, it's entirely the responses to the questions, right? 00:08:33.095 --> 00:08:36.675 Because the person you're talking to has to feel that they are 00:08:36.675 --> 00:08:38.175 in a conversation with you. 00:08:38.525 --> 00:08:42.035 If they feel they're on the spot or they're just answering rote 00:08:42.055 --> 00:08:44.535 questions, then their answers change. 00:08:44.675 --> 00:08:47.905 That's death to a decent interview, and it's four minutes that my 00:08:47.905 --> 00:08:49.205 mom's gonna turn off the radio. 00:08:49.275 --> 00:08:50.945 Matt Abrahams: How do you keep an interview on track? 00:08:50.945 --> 00:08:54.855 Sometimes people wander or they don't wanna answer the question you, you asked. 00:08:54.855 --> 00:08:55.155 Kai Ryssdal: Yeah, they do. 00:08:56.065 --> 00:08:56.125 Well, so look. 00:08:56.125 --> 00:08:56.185 Matt Abrahams: How do you bring it back? 00:08:56.185 --> 00:08:57.055 Kai Ryssdal: So that's two different things. 00:08:57.175 --> 00:08:59.505 If they don't wanna answer the question you asked, you have 00:08:59.505 --> 00:09:00.565 to ask the question again. 00:09:00.585 --> 00:09:04.475 And what I will not infrequently do is after I've asked question A, 00:09:04.775 --> 00:09:06.595 they will give me answer X, right? 00:09:06.895 --> 00:09:11.415 And I will say, in these many words, "Let me try this again and see if I 00:09:11.415 --> 00:09:12.775 can get a different answer," right? 00:09:12.775 --> 00:09:16.465 So that they know that, number one, I'm not satisfied with what they said, right? 00:09:16.685 --> 00:09:19.875 But number two, maybe they'll frame things in a slightly different way. 00:09:20.125 --> 00:09:22.565 A really experienced CEO is gonna stick to their knitting 00:09:22.565 --> 00:09:24.285 and give you the stock answer. 00:09:24.595 --> 00:09:28.585 Somebody who's, you know, regular walk of life or running a small business or what 00:09:28.595 --> 00:09:31.355 have you is gonna probably recirculate. 00:09:31.805 --> 00:09:35.475 And then the other thing is, you know, if they don't tell you what you need to 00:09:35.475 --> 00:09:38.035 know, you have to keep going at it, right? 00:09:38.035 --> 00:09:41.365 If it's an important thing, if it's an important interview, you have to 00:09:41.365 --> 00:09:43.635 get that information out there because that's what the listener demands. 00:09:43.955 --> 00:09:46.015 Matt Abrahams: And when somebody goes off track or on a tangent, 00:09:46.045 --> 00:09:46.685 how do you pull them back? 00:09:46.685 --> 00:09:48.505 Kai Ryssdal: You, you, gotta interrupt them sometimes, right? 00:09:48.505 --> 00:09:50.923 Sometimes you have to say, "Listen, let's put a pin in that conversation 00:09:50.943 --> 00:09:54.203 and let's bring it back here to this other thing." Also, if you're doing 00:09:54.204 --> 00:09:57.234 a live interview, it's one thing, but if you're doing a taped interview, 00:09:57.553 --> 00:10:00.064 you have the power of the razor blade and the splicing tape, you know? 00:10:00.064 --> 00:10:01.813 And you can sort of save them from themselves. 00:10:01.853 --> 00:10:04.333 Matt Abrahams: One of the techniques I like to use when things get a little 00:10:04.333 --> 00:10:06.354 off on a tangent is to interrupt. 00:10:06.354 --> 00:10:06.884 I totally agree. 00:10:06.884 --> 00:10:09.264 But I do so with a paraphrase where I'll highlight something that 00:10:09.264 --> 00:10:10.694 they've said and then pull it back. 00:10:10.734 --> 00:10:14.254 But again, it comes back to that being that tour guide where you know 00:10:14.324 --> 00:10:16.284 where you wanna go and if we start going off, we gotta pull it back. 00:10:16.284 --> 00:10:18.154 Kai Ryssdal: And, and the catch, of course, is finding that moment, right? 00:10:18.154 --> 00:10:20.424 'Cause you don't wanna be rude, you don't wanna really interrupt 00:10:20.424 --> 00:10:23.284 them, but it's your job to keep the train on the tracks, for sure. 00:10:23.464 --> 00:10:26.354 Matt Abrahams: And the rudeness piece, I think, is a really important point. 00:10:26.394 --> 00:10:28.434 When you're, you don't wanna be rude to the guest, but you're 00:10:28.444 --> 00:10:31.198 being rude to the other people, the audience if you don't do it. 00:10:31.198 --> 00:10:32.288 So you've gotta weigh those. 00:10:33.048 --> 00:10:35.448 There's a lot of emotion in some of the things that you talk about, 00:10:35.468 --> 00:10:38.818 anxiety in particular, you know, when we're talking about economics, 00:10:38.818 --> 00:10:39.938 what's going on in the world. 00:10:41.310 --> 00:10:46.140 How do you thread that needle of acknowledging the emotion, the anxiety in 00:10:46.140 --> 00:10:50.150 the moment, but also not getting people so upset and fearful that they tune out? 00:10:50.380 --> 00:10:53.710 Kai Ryssdal: We had this conversation a lot in the early days of the financial 00:10:53.710 --> 00:10:58.660 crisis going on now 20 years ago, 'cause the news, much as it is today, 00:10:59.020 --> 00:11:02.620 was really, really grim, and it was economically and financially scary. 00:11:02.800 --> 00:11:06.060 And our conversation was, what's our job? 00:11:06.180 --> 00:11:09.870 Is our job to make people feel better, or is our job to help them 00:11:09.870 --> 00:11:14.440 understand what's happening and then they can process it how they want? 00:11:14.620 --> 00:11:17.800 And we came down on, we have to help them understand this, right? 00:11:17.800 --> 00:11:18.970 And we can't sugarcoat it. 00:11:19.180 --> 00:11:22.750 So let's address the anxiety, let's address the fact that these are scary, 00:11:22.750 --> 00:11:27.700 scary times, and then go from there with them having the information. 00:11:28.020 --> 00:11:31.280 I had done about, probably 10 years ago now, an interview 00:11:31.570 --> 00:11:34.140 with, the CEO of Marriott. 00:11:34.450 --> 00:11:36.580 I went to New York, went to breakfast with him in a Marriott 00:11:36.580 --> 00:11:38.790 hotel, and we had a great conversation, and it was really good. 00:11:39.360 --> 00:11:40.890 Arne Sorenson, CEO of Marriott. 00:11:40.980 --> 00:11:41.410 Formerly. 00:11:41.440 --> 00:11:46.500 Anyway, early in COVID, I discovered that he had been diagnosed with stage four, 00:11:46.840 --> 00:11:51.070 cancer of some variety or other, and it was, like, terminal, and he knew that. 00:11:51.670 --> 00:11:55.970 And so we got him back on the show because he hadn't stepped down yet, 00:11:55.980 --> 00:11:59.890 but he was clearly dying, and we did it on video, actually, and he 00:11:59.890 --> 00:12:01.470 looked like a stage four cancer guy. 00:12:02.080 --> 00:12:07.760 And we had a whole conversation about his scary moment in these really scary times. 00:12:08.270 --> 00:12:11.410 It landed with me, it landed with listeners, and you just 00:12:11.410 --> 00:12:13.390 have to go there, right? 00:12:13.490 --> 00:12:15.880 And look, I've been doing this for a while now, and I, I think 00:12:15.900 --> 00:12:17.870 listeners trust me to take them there. 00:12:18.330 --> 00:12:20.260 I think about that interview a lot, actually. 00:12:20.320 --> 00:12:21.190 That was a moment, right? 00:12:21.210 --> 00:12:21.680 It was a moment. 00:12:21.700 --> 00:12:23.020 And you just have to lean into it. 00:12:23.320 --> 00:12:26.370 Matt Abrahams: Acknowledging that there is anxiety around this and 00:12:26.380 --> 00:12:28.330 saying, "We're gonna get through this together," but you're better 00:12:28.330 --> 00:12:29.860 off understanding and and knowing. 00:12:29.910 --> 00:12:33.240 And that way people are willing to go that distance, and I think the point you 00:12:33.240 --> 00:12:36.740 made is that there's a trust that people have in you that allows that to happen. 00:12:37.360 --> 00:12:40.790 I wanna deal with anxiety, specifically about anxiety you might feel. 00:12:40.790 --> 00:12:42.400 You've been a fighter pilot, a diplomat. 00:12:42.400 --> 00:12:44.000 You're a live on-air host. 00:12:44.370 --> 00:12:47.290 for many of us, those would be anxiety-filled situations. 00:12:47.490 --> 00:12:50.630 Do you have some things that you do to help you manage your anxiety that 00:12:50.630 --> 00:12:52.260 others of us could benefit from? 00:12:52.440 --> 00:12:56.840 Kai Ryssdal: Here is my mantra, and it makes my producers crazy when I say this 00:12:56.840 --> 00:12:58.750 out loud, but it is truly what I believe. 00:12:59.220 --> 00:13:03.696 If you think about how you sound In front of a microphone, while you're sitting 00:13:03.696 --> 00:13:06.926 in front of a microphone, you're gonna screw up how you sound on the microphone, 00:13:07.096 --> 00:13:09.416 so don't think, just talk, okay? 00:13:09.716 --> 00:13:13.186 Now, that's not to say don't be prepared. 00:13:13.466 --> 00:13:16.186 It's not to say don't think about what you wanna get out of it before 00:13:16.186 --> 00:13:17.346 you go sit down in the studio. 00:13:17.696 --> 00:13:21.856 It's not to say don't be your prepared best, right? 00:13:22.056 --> 00:13:25.466 But once you get there, and this goes back to the thing we were talking about 00:13:25.466 --> 00:13:26.776 before, about being in the conversation. 00:13:26.896 --> 00:13:30.986 Once you get there, the only way to be there is not to think 00:13:30.996 --> 00:13:31.986 about all those other things. 00:13:32.116 --> 00:13:33.326 Just be there. 00:13:33.606 --> 00:13:35.106 And have that conversation. 00:13:35.416 --> 00:13:37.476 It sounds silly, but in a way that's calming, right? 00:13:37.476 --> 00:13:40.276 Because if you know you've done your homework before you get into the studio, 00:13:40.646 --> 00:13:42.046 you don't need that piece of paper. 00:13:42.056 --> 00:13:43.556 You don't need the producer in that ear. 00:13:43.876 --> 00:13:47.556 Once you're there, you have to be there. 00:13:48.596 --> 00:13:50.996 And if you're thinking about all that other crap, you're doing it wrong. 00:13:51.136 --> 00:13:53.396 Matt Abrahams: You know, a lot of my work in the last several years 00:13:53.396 --> 00:13:55.986 has been helping people speak in the moment and spontaneously. 00:13:56.006 --> 00:13:57.446 And it's exactly what you're talking about. 00:13:57.616 --> 00:13:58.886 You can do a lot to prepare. 00:13:59.236 --> 00:14:02.586 People always sort of cock their head when I say you can prepare to be 00:14:02.586 --> 00:14:06.036 spontaneous, but it's that planning and then when you show up, you just do it. 00:14:06.036 --> 00:14:06.886 It's like an athlete. 00:14:07.206 --> 00:14:08.566 Athletes do lots of drills. 00:14:08.596 --> 00:14:10.356 Kai Ryssdal: And look, there are some people who can actually 00:14:10.356 --> 00:14:12.906 not think about it and show up and be spontaneous and be great. 00:14:13.346 --> 00:14:14.256 That's not most people. 00:14:14.316 --> 00:14:14.916 Matt Abrahams: That's correct. 00:14:15.016 --> 00:14:15.616 That's correct. 00:14:15.986 --> 00:14:19.236 So what helps you to manage some of the fear is that you do a lot of prep 00:14:19.296 --> 00:14:20.186 then you just focus and come do it. 00:14:20.186 --> 00:14:22.286 Kai Ryssdal: But then I know when I get in the room, I know what I'm doing. 00:14:22.676 --> 00:14:25.346 Matt Abrahams: So if something doesn't go the way you want, a question doesn't 00:14:25.346 --> 00:14:29.086 come out right, you say something that you're not happy with, in the 00:14:29.086 --> 00:14:30.716 moment, what do you do with that? 00:14:30.726 --> 00:14:32.366 And after the fact, what do you do with that? 00:14:32.376 --> 00:14:36.396 Kai Ryssdal: So I try really hard not to fix things after the fact, right? 00:14:36.396 --> 00:14:39.406 So when we're doing a taped interview and I screw something up and I know 00:14:39.406 --> 00:14:42.406 I've screwed it up, I will actually correct it in the next moment, right? 00:14:42.406 --> 00:14:44.996 The next moment I have in that interview, just to go back 00:14:44.996 --> 00:14:46.386 and, and be honest about it. 00:14:46.586 --> 00:14:48.696 Sometimes my producer will be on Slack and say, "Listen, 00:14:48.696 --> 00:14:50.596 it's 42, not 17," or whatever. 00:14:50.906 --> 00:14:53.036 But just fix it right there, you know? 00:14:53.086 --> 00:14:53.376 Matt Abrahams: Right. 00:14:53.661 --> 00:14:56.521 And not beat yourself up about it, because you can then get in your head 00:14:56.521 --> 00:14:59.241 saying, "Oh, I can't believe I made that mistake. I said the wrong number." 00:14:59.631 --> 00:15:01.321 You have to still be in that moment. 00:15:01.601 --> 00:15:04.541 Mike Krzyzewski, the famous basketball coach taught his 00:15:04.541 --> 00:15:06.371 players this idea of next play. 00:15:06.701 --> 00:15:08.598 So you screw up, you keep going. 00:15:08.648 --> 00:15:10.598 Kai Ryssdal: So I'm a high school and college soccer referee. 00:15:10.708 --> 00:15:11.738 And it's the same deal. 00:15:12.148 --> 00:15:16.088 Because if you don't let the mistake that you made by not calling that 00:15:16.088 --> 00:15:19.418 foul or missing the handball or whatever, if you don't let that go, 00:15:19.598 --> 00:15:21.828 you will surely miss the next one. 00:15:21.828 --> 00:15:24.988 And it's a 90-minute game, and you gotta be there for all 90 minutes of it. 00:15:24.988 --> 00:15:25.958 That's exactly right. 00:15:26.078 --> 00:15:26.538 Matt Abrahams: You're a ref. 00:15:26.538 --> 00:15:29.478 I find that really interesting, given what you do for a profession. 00:15:29.478 --> 00:15:30.968 I see some commonalities of that. 00:15:30.978 --> 00:15:36.268 But absolutely, you can carry with you that issue and that in and 00:15:36.268 --> 00:15:39.368 of itself is a skill that's hard for people to manage, to let go. 00:15:39.408 --> 00:15:39.918 Kai Ryssdal: It's really hard. 00:15:39.938 --> 00:15:43.098 Matt Abrahams: And I like to distinguish between rumination and reflection. 00:15:43.148 --> 00:15:44.388 I think reflection's really important. 00:15:44.398 --> 00:15:45.668 That's how we learn and we grow. 00:15:45.978 --> 00:15:49.418 But if we ruminate in that moment it's gonna cause everything else to tumble. 00:15:49.638 --> 00:15:51.018 You ask a lot of questions. 00:15:51.248 --> 00:15:53.158 How do you stay curious about that? 00:15:53.158 --> 00:15:57.388 I mean, it can become sort of mundane, but you seem genuinely interested. 00:15:57.388 --> 00:16:00.088 Kai Ryssdal: I'm a genuinely curious person and that's the rewarding 00:16:00.088 --> 00:16:00.838 part of being a journalist. 00:16:00.838 --> 00:16:03.848 My job, you know, people always say, "Well, the host's job in a radio program 00:16:03.848 --> 00:16:06.638 is to be a, you know, a stand-in for the audience and ask them what they wanna 00:16:06.638 --> 00:16:09.928 know." And sure, yes, to some degree, but my job is to be respectful of the 00:16:09.928 --> 00:16:13.758 guest and respectful of the audience's time, and to try to elicit from them, 00:16:13.938 --> 00:16:15.748 you know, things that I think the audience is gonna find interesting. 00:16:15.748 --> 00:16:18.928 And the only way to do that is to be curious about what they do. 00:16:19.128 --> 00:16:23.228 Sometimes it's manufactured curiosity, and sometimes it's genuine, but the 00:16:23.228 --> 00:16:24.508 name of the game is don't let that show. 00:16:24.528 --> 00:16:28.368 Be there, ask those questions, and hope the audience gets something out of it. 00:16:28.578 --> 00:16:30.348 Matt Abrahams: And even in those manufactured moments, there's 00:16:30.348 --> 00:16:31.888 something in there that is interesting. 00:16:31.918 --> 00:16:32.318 Kai Ryssdal: Oh, yeah. 00:16:32.348 --> 00:16:35.588 There's always something that makes you go, "Huh?" And th- which by the way, if 00:16:35.588 --> 00:16:40.328 you're listening to the answer, leads you on a different path, and it takes you off 00:16:40.328 --> 00:16:42.028 of that prepared list of questions, right? 00:16:42.048 --> 00:16:42.498 Matt Abrahams: That's right. 00:16:42.828 --> 00:16:45.498 Is there a question that you have that you go back to if you 00:16:45.498 --> 00:16:46.738 need a question in the moment? 00:16:46.748 --> 00:16:49.075 Do you have a favorite or a go-to or not so much? 00:16:49.075 --> 00:16:53.228 Kai Ryssdal: Uh, I smile because me having a, me going blank in a big 00:16:53.228 --> 00:16:57.038 interview led to one of the most revealing answers we've ever had on Marketplace. 00:16:57.058 --> 00:16:58.148 But let me give you my go-to. 00:16:58.148 --> 00:17:01.752 My go-to for anybody is In a business and economic situation, 00:17:02.212 --> 00:17:03.062 what's your worst nightmare? 00:17:03.272 --> 00:17:04.102 What keeps you up at night? 00:17:04.302 --> 00:17:07.082 It gives me time to think and regroup, you know? 00:17:07.342 --> 00:17:09.892 And they will, sometimes the answers are revealing and sometimes it's 00:17:09.912 --> 00:17:10.952 cutting room floor stuff, right? 00:17:10.972 --> 00:17:12.342 Sometimes it's good and sometimes it's not. 00:17:12.842 --> 00:17:17.792 I was interviewing Janet Yellen once between her time as Fed chair and when 00:17:17.792 --> 00:17:19.162 she got the job as Treasury Secretary. 00:17:19.162 --> 00:17:21.102 So it's like 2018, '19. 00:17:21.552 --> 00:17:24.372 We went to her office in Brookings in Washington. 00:17:24.842 --> 00:17:27.272 When I go into those interviews, I don't have a piece of paper in front 00:17:27.272 --> 00:17:31.462 of me because I like to be there and present with the person I'm talking to. 00:17:32.462 --> 00:17:35.512 And she finished whatever answer she had given to the question, 00:17:35.842 --> 00:17:37.182 and my mind just went blank. 00:17:37.422 --> 00:17:39.082 I just completely brain-farted. 00:17:39.772 --> 00:17:42.942 And so I looked at her and I said, "Do you think Donald Trump understands 00:17:43.022 --> 00:17:47.602 economic policy?" And she looked at me and said, "No, I don't." And I was 00:17:47.602 --> 00:17:50.272 like, "Oh my God." Oh my God, right? 00:17:50.512 --> 00:17:54.132 It came from me just not knowing what else to do, so I just came up with something. 00:17:54.612 --> 00:17:56.402 So, you know, just say something, right? 00:17:56.582 --> 00:17:59.052 Matt Abrahams: The biggest fear people report to me is the fear of blanking out. 00:17:59.542 --> 00:18:01.402 Kai Ryssdal: But it happens to everybody, right? 00:18:01.492 --> 00:18:01.722 You know? 00:18:01.722 --> 00:18:02.292 I mean… 00:18:02.472 --> 00:18:04.332 Matt Abrahams: And the way through it is to do what you did, 00:18:04.332 --> 00:18:04.882 just to throw out a question. 00:18:04.882 --> 00:18:05.842 Kai Ryssdal: The way through it is through it. 00:18:05.952 --> 00:18:06.142 Matt Abrahams: Yeah. 00:18:06.552 --> 00:18:07.302 Really interesting. 00:18:07.575 --> 00:18:10.265 I end all of my episodes with three questions. 00:18:10.425 --> 00:18:12.205 One I'm gonna make up just for you, and the other two I've been 00:18:12.205 --> 00:18:13.435 asking people for a long time. 00:18:13.435 --> 00:18:13.965 Are you up for that? 00:18:14.055 --> 00:18:14.325 Kai Ryssdal: Yeah. 00:18:14.965 --> 00:18:17.715 Matt Abrahams: In terms of what you do, how do you see AI impacting 00:18:17.715 --> 00:18:20.895 communication and journalism in general? 00:18:20.975 --> 00:18:22.655 Kai Ryssdal: Well, so that's two different things, right? 00:18:22.655 --> 00:18:26.995 The issue of communication and fakes and all of those things is deeply 00:18:26.995 --> 00:18:30.885 troubling, not just on a journalistic level, but on a societal level, right? 00:18:30.925 --> 00:18:35.965 On a trust and on a mutual adherence to norms basis. 00:18:35.965 --> 00:18:37.385 I think that's really, really challenging. 00:18:37.855 --> 00:18:43.815 Journalism can be really, really helped by artificial intelligence: analysis, trend 00:18:43.815 --> 00:18:45.765 spotting, you know, all of those things. 00:18:45.865 --> 00:18:51.009 But AI writing articles and doing podcasts and all of which it's 00:18:51.009 --> 00:18:54.629 capable of doing is not the way to a successful future for the United 00:18:54.629 --> 00:18:55.829 States and for the rest of the planet. 00:18:56.249 --> 00:18:59.049 You know, set aside the fact that it would put me and probably you out of a job. 00:18:59.069 --> 00:18:59.839 Matt Abrahams: Yeah, absolutely. 00:19:00.159 --> 00:19:00.379 Yeah. 00:19:00.379 --> 00:19:00.799 Kai Ryssdal: You know? 00:19:01.379 --> 00:19:01.719 Matt Abrahams: Right. 00:19:01.729 --> 00:19:03.099 So use it as a tool. 00:19:03.409 --> 00:19:04.529 Kai Ryssdal: It is a tool, right? 00:19:04.529 --> 00:19:07.419 But be smart, and let's have a human in that loop, and let's not 00:19:07.419 --> 00:19:10.579 just abrogate all responsibility and say, "Here you go." AI's gonna 00:19:10.579 --> 00:19:12.049 take care of this," 'cause it's not. 00:19:12.539 --> 00:19:14.859 Matt Abrahams: At the end of the day, communication is operationalized 00:19:14.899 --> 00:19:17.769 critical thinking, and if we let AI do that, we're missing out on things. 00:19:18.889 --> 00:19:19.629 Question number two. 00:19:19.756 --> 00:19:22.166 Who's a communicator that you admire, and why? 00:19:22.806 --> 00:19:27.516 Kai Ryssdal: The two that I've come up with are not spoken word people. 00:19:27.596 --> 00:19:33.536 Jim Fallows, formerly at The Atlantic, now on his own Substack, but for many years an 00:19:33.546 --> 00:19:38.316 observational journalist of international affairs, national security, and a writer. 00:19:38.706 --> 00:19:40.676 I would read almost anything he's written, truly. 00:19:41.066 --> 00:19:44.546 Same thing goes for John Dickerson, late of CBS News and Slate. 00:19:44.976 --> 00:19:49.006 I just find those two guys really interesting to read. 00:19:49.156 --> 00:19:53.666 I'm really critical of spoken word people or television people because 00:19:53.736 --> 00:19:55.076 I'm so innately connected to that. 00:19:55.676 --> 00:19:57.346 Part of that's probably professional jealousy. 00:19:57.476 --> 00:19:59.326 Part of it's probably envy somehow. 00:19:59.376 --> 00:20:01.196 But those are two who, who come to the top of my head. 00:20:01.196 --> 00:20:03.346 Matt Abrahams: Is there something that they do in their writing that's 00:20:03.376 --> 00:20:05.116 particularly, is it their thoroughness? 00:20:05.116 --> 00:20:09.406 Kai Ryssdal: They are at the same time very concrete and very big 00:20:09.406 --> 00:20:13.246 idea, and they have the ability to land that plane, if you will. 00:20:13.356 --> 00:20:14.246 Matt Abrahams: And that's, that's an art. 00:20:14.392 --> 00:20:17.142 Final question, what are the first three ingredients that go into a 00:20:17.142 --> 00:20:19.072 successful communication recipe? 00:20:19.332 --> 00:20:24.332 Kai Ryssdal: Know what you're talking about, but not to such a degree as you 00:20:24.332 --> 00:20:26.362 are paralyzed by the information, right? 00:20:26.382 --> 00:20:28.712 It's like you use the recipe thing. 00:20:28.722 --> 00:20:30.622 I will continue that analogy. 00:20:30.762 --> 00:20:32.572 You know, sometimes you need a pinch of salt. 00:20:32.572 --> 00:20:34.322 Sometimes you need a half a tablespoon of salt. 00:20:34.512 --> 00:20:34.792 Whatever. 00:20:34.792 --> 00:20:35.562 Throw some salt in there, right? 00:20:35.612 --> 00:20:36.862 So know what you're talking about. 00:20:36.982 --> 00:20:40.942 Number two, some concept of brevity. 00:20:41.642 --> 00:20:44.532 If you are long-winded, you will lose people's attention. 00:20:45.072 --> 00:20:48.552 If you are too short-winded, you shortchange your listener 00:20:48.572 --> 00:20:49.542 and the subject at hand. 00:20:49.552 --> 00:20:54.052 So find that happy medium between going on too long and just saying, "All 00:20:54.052 --> 00:20:57.652 right, let's go." And then finally, I'm gonna go back to my old standby. 00:20:58.032 --> 00:20:58.952 Don't think too much. 00:20:59.592 --> 00:21:00.952 Know what you're talking about, right? 00:21:01.102 --> 00:21:03.272 Item number one on this, know what you're talking about. 00:21:03.732 --> 00:21:07.512 And then once you know that, once you've internalized it, then just 00:21:07.522 --> 00:21:09.092 be in the moment and just do it. 00:21:09.392 --> 00:21:10.082 Be present. 00:21:10.092 --> 00:21:11.062 Be yourself. 00:21:11.442 --> 00:21:14.722 Express yourself, and then the audience will react to you. 00:21:15.960 --> 00:21:16.740 Matt Abrahams: Know your stuff. 00:21:17.060 --> 00:21:17.910 Be concise. 00:21:18.020 --> 00:21:18.580 And be present. 00:21:18.720 --> 00:21:18.980 Kai Ryssdal: Yeah. 00:21:19.480 --> 00:21:20.420 Matt Abrahams: Excellent ingredients. 00:21:20.440 --> 00:21:23.540 And helpful for not just what you do, but for what all of us do. 00:21:23.870 --> 00:21:25.430 Kai, this has been fantastic. 00:21:25.530 --> 00:21:26.820 A fan boy moment for me. 00:21:26.820 --> 00:21:30.613 I, I really enjoy your show, and I enjoy how you communicate and try to 00:21:30.613 --> 00:21:31.833 emulate some of the things you do. 00:21:32.133 --> 00:21:34.313 Thank you for your time, and keep up the great work. 00:21:34.723 --> 00:21:35.443 Kai Ryssdal: Absolutely a pleasure, Matt. 00:21:35.443 --> 00:21:35.813 Thank you. 00:21:35.923 --> 00:21:37.703 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for listening to another episode of 00:21:37.713 --> 00:21:39.953 Think Fast, Talk Smart, the Podcast. 00:21:40.373 --> 00:21:45.313 To learn more about similar communication, listen to Peter Sagal, episode 220. 00:21:45.763 --> 00:21:50.103 This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. 00:21:50.433 --> 00:21:52.003 Our music is from Floyd Wonder. 00:21:52.283 --> 00:21:56.953 With special thanks to the team at Spotify Los Angeles and Podium Podcast Company. 00:21:57.373 --> 00:22:00.583 Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. 00:22:00.693 --> 00:22:02.833 Be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:22:02.913 --> 00:22:05.753 Also, follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram. 00:22:06.323 --> 00:22:10.153 And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language 00:22:10.153 --> 00:22:12.093 learning content, and our newsletter. 00:22:12.433 --> 00:22:15.343 Please consider joining our Think Fast, Talk Smart Learning Community 00:22:15.343 --> 00:22:17.793 at fastersmarter.io/learning. 00:22:18.263 --> 00:22:21.943 You'll find video lessons, learning quests, discussion boards, my AI 00:22:21.973 --> 00:22:24.143 coach, and book club opportunities. 00:22:24.383 --> 00:22:29.133 Again, that's fastersmarter.io/learning to become part of the Think Fast, 00:22:29.253 --> 00:22:30.993 Talk Smart Learning Community