1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,460 Mark Ackers: Welcome to the podcast. Here's a sneak peek of 2 00:00:02,460 --> 00:00:05,460 what's coming up in today's episode. Brian, did you used to 3 00:00:05,460 --> 00:00:06,360 be crap at sales? 4 00:00:06,420 --> 00:00:10,140 Bryan Mulry: Yes, 100% at the beginning of every new chapter 5 00:00:10,140 --> 00:00:13,320 in my sales career, I have been bad at that chapter and then 6 00:00:13,500 --> 00:00:15,420 quickly stopped being bad at it 7 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:17,940 Mark Ackers: on a scale of one to 10. When you think about your 8 00:00:17,940 --> 00:00:19,440 crappist, how crap were you? 9 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:25,700 Unknown: Oh, we're talking like sending 700 word mass emails to 10 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:29,120 1000 people at a time. We're talking hanging up on someone 11 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:31,640 when they pick up the phone, doing a cold call and then 12 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:34,400 blaming it on technical troubles in an email after them. Like 13 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:37,040 we're talking, not asking people for the money when they were 14 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:39,260 ready to hand over money. We're talking pretty bad at the 15 00:00:39,260 --> 00:00:41,740 beginning, I'd had this wonderful two months long 16 00:00:41,740 --> 00:00:44,140 training about Google Cloud. As far as I was concerned, I knew 17 00:00:44,140 --> 00:00:47,560 everything about Google Cloud. I was 2122 years of age. I knew 18 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:50,860 nothing, right? There were people who had been working on 19 00:00:50,860 --> 00:00:52,660 cloud computing longer than I was alive. 20 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:56,200 Mark Ackers: In today's episode, I want to use your sales 21 00:00:56,200 --> 00:01:00,660 coaching brain to pick apart what sales leaders that you've 22 00:01:00,660 --> 00:01:03,900 met Google at sales loft, and people that you've spoken with 23 00:01:03,900 --> 00:01:07,260 to understand what made them so good. What do the best sellers 24 00:01:07,260 --> 00:01:10,980 do, and what don't they do, and what are the winning habits talk 25 00:01:10,980 --> 00:01:14,100 to you about at Google, the sales leadership team that you 26 00:01:14,100 --> 00:01:18,240 got to experience. What did the best managers have in terms of 27 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:19,860 traits and habit my 28 00:01:19,860 --> 00:01:21,680 Unknown: manager, as SDR manager, he 29 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:25,160 Mark Ackers: knew 100% what's the one thing that you do 30 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:29,180 consistently as a coach to really help reps level up. 31 00:01:29,180 --> 00:01:29,660 There's a lot 32 00:01:29,660 --> 00:01:32,780 Unknown: of limiting beliefs the reps don't know they have. And 33 00:01:32,780 --> 00:01:34,940 they will come to a coaching session with someone like 34 00:01:34,940 --> 00:01:38,540 myself, and they'll say it out loud, and I'll go, hang on, 35 00:01:38,540 --> 00:01:40,820 what? Where did that come from? What are we talking about here? 36 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:43,360 And my job is to pull them back into reality. 37 00:01:47,740 --> 00:01:50,320 Mark Ackers: Hello and welcome to the I used to be crap at 38 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:53,440 sales podcast. My name is Mark Akers. I'm the co founder and 39 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:56,680 Head of Sales here at my sales coach. And we called the podcast 40 00:01:56,680 --> 00:02:00,720 that because it's true, and all of our guests say the same. And 41 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:03,780 today I'm joined by a man with a very interesting background, 42 00:02:04,020 --> 00:02:08,520 someone who went from selling suits for six euros and a half 43 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:13,260 an hour at the age of 15 to making over 100,000 pounds in 44 00:02:13,260 --> 00:02:17,820 sales. This person is a former SDR at Google, SDR and then 45 00:02:17,820 --> 00:02:21,860 account manager for sales loft. They are now self employed sales 46 00:02:21,860 --> 00:02:26,660 coach and my sales coach coach today on the podcast. It's Brian 47 00:02:26,660 --> 00:02:29,960 Murray, Brian, welcome. Great to have you with us. How you 48 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:30,380 feeling? 49 00:02:30,620 --> 00:02:33,080 Unknown: Hello, I'm feeling great. I'm really glad that 50 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:34,820 we're getting to do this absolutely 51 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:38,540 Mark Ackers: in today's episode, I want to use your sales 52 00:02:38,540 --> 00:02:43,000 coaching brain to pick apart what sales leaders that you've 53 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:46,780 met, Google, sales loft and people that you've spoken with 54 00:02:46,780 --> 00:02:50,860 to understand what made them so good. I want to also understand 55 00:02:50,860 --> 00:02:54,460 about sellers. You know, what do the best sellers do, and what 56 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:57,700 don't they do, and what are the winning habits, so to speak, 57 00:02:57,700 --> 00:03:01,080 that's what we're going to get into today. But before all of 58 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:04,860 that, we always start with a yes. No question, Brian, did you 59 00:03:04,860 --> 00:03:09,720 used to be crap at sales? Yes, 100% what point of your career 60 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:11,760 rushed to the front of your mind? What 61 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:13,920 Unknown: really kicked into my brain there was actually the 62 00:03:13,920 --> 00:03:18,000 beginning of each role in each new chapter. At the beginning of 63 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:21,320 every new chapter in my sales career, I have been bad at that 64 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:26,600 chapter and then quickly stopped being bad at it. But yeah, I've 65 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:30,140 been crap at sales multiple times, and I will be again on 66 00:03:30,140 --> 00:03:32,300 Mark Ackers: a scale of one to 10 when you think about your 67 00:03:32,300 --> 00:03:34,340 crappist, how crap were you? Oh, 68 00:03:34,340 --> 00:03:41,080 Unknown: we're talking like sending 700 word mass emails to 69 00:03:41,140 --> 00:03:44,500 1000 people at a time. We're talking, hanging up on someone 70 00:03:44,500 --> 00:03:47,080 when they pick up the phone, doing a cold call, and then 71 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:51,160 blaming it on technical troubles in an email after them, like 72 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:53,800 we're talking, not asking people for the money when they were 73 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:56,560 ready to hand over money. We're we're talking pretty bad luck. 74 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:56,980 Share 75 00:03:56,980 --> 00:04:00,720 Mark Ackers: with us your biggest howler in sales. One 76 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:02,940 Unknown: of my biggest haulers is actually pretty interesting 77 00:04:02,940 --> 00:04:07,500 one, working in sales loft as an account manager. I had a list of 78 00:04:07,500 --> 00:04:10,680 people who were not going to renew with us, and burnt people 79 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:14,160 who were very unhappy with us. They unfortunately got a message 80 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:17,460 asking for more money and asking, you know, hey, we've 81 00:04:17,460 --> 00:04:19,860 built these wonderful new new features. I think they'll be 82 00:04:19,860 --> 00:04:23,240 wonderful for your team. Let's, let's speak about them. And I 83 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:26,840 got a lot of angry messages back. Though I had, I had one 84 00:04:26,840 --> 00:04:30,260 job send the right message to the right person, and 85 00:04:30,260 --> 00:04:34,400 unfortunately, in a moment of tiredness, I sent it to about 50 86 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:36,920 of our least happy customers. 87 00:04:37,220 --> 00:04:39,440 Mark Ackers: So bright. What were the repercussions of that? 88 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:39,680 There's 89 00:04:39,740 --> 00:04:41,780 Unknown: obviously that emotional moment when you get 90 00:04:41,780 --> 00:04:44,620 that first email back. Go back going, you know, I've already 91 00:04:44,620 --> 00:04:47,980 told you I'm going to cancel, or, you know, I've already told 92 00:04:47,980 --> 00:04:50,380 you that I don't want to use this product, or I don't already 93 00:04:50,380 --> 00:04:52,600 told you that I'm not doing this. And you get that first 94 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:55,960 messages back and you go, Oh, no, I can't believe I did that. 95 00:04:55,960 --> 00:05:00,120 Your start goes into the pit of your stomach, but, yeah. The 96 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:03,540 repercussions were that, I guess if I had wanted to try and 97 00:05:03,540 --> 00:05:05,820 salvage any of those customers, all the goodwill was gone. 98 00:05:07,740 --> 00:05:09,180 Mark Ackers: I'm guessing you learned from that, though, 99 00:05:09,180 --> 00:05:12,840 right? That was a learning moment. And speaking of 100 00:05:12,840 --> 00:05:17,160 learning, let's talk about where you learn to sell. So it feels 101 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:22,400 like I need to go to when you were 15 years old, selling suits 102 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:25,880 you. You say, this was your first sales job. This is where 103 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:29,420 you learn that sales should be a conversation between two people, 104 00:05:29,420 --> 00:05:31,940 and at some point that conversation money changes 105 00:05:31,940 --> 00:05:35,420 hands. How did you learn that in that role? That 106 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:38,240 Unknown: was a really interesting one. It gave me my 107 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:43,000 foundation for what real selling is, even though I wasn't on 108 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:45,580 commission, I was a retail assistant. I was this young, 15 109 00:05:45,580 --> 00:05:49,420 year old guy who knew how to help people find the right 110 00:05:49,420 --> 00:05:51,760 clothes. In the eyes of the business, I shouldn't have been 111 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:54,040 anything more than a guy who knows how to operate a till and 112 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:58,360 hang clothes on a job, right? I actually started quote, unquote, 113 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:01,500 selling out of almost pure boredom. In that place, there 114 00:06:01,500 --> 00:06:03,720 were three layers. I was in the basement. And, you know, if 115 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:06,120 people don't come down to the basement, I had no one to talk 116 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:08,640 to. So what happened is I just start chatting with people. You 117 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:10,800 know, someone would be over in suits, and would be over with 118 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:13,260 the with the jeans, we over the shirts. And I just go, you know, 119 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:16,080 have you an event coming up? Or, you know, those suits are great 120 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:18,840 for weddings and things like that. And I just start chatting 121 00:06:18,840 --> 00:06:22,340 with people. And after about a year and a half or two years of 122 00:06:22,340 --> 00:06:24,620 doing this, and I was, you know, I was in school at the time, so 123 00:06:24,620 --> 00:06:29,600 just weekend work, I started to turn it into a game. My greatest 124 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:31,880 achievement, as far as I'm concerned, it was a dude came in 125 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:37,700 for socks and left with a full new suit, three pairs of jeans, 126 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:41,860 three four shirts, a new pair of shoes. And he just came in. He 127 00:06:41,860 --> 00:06:44,440 came in wanting socks for a specific thing, and then ended 128 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:46,840 up with a lot of others. And I sort of turned it into a game 129 00:06:46,840 --> 00:06:50,380 of, all right, well, let's see what people need. Let's see why 130 00:06:50,380 --> 00:06:53,320 they're coming in here and actually looking for clothes. 131 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:56,860 And that's, that's where it really sort of began, of just 132 00:06:56,860 --> 00:06:58,360 having conversations with people. 133 00:06:58,660 --> 00:07:00,840 Mark Ackers: And was that all self taught? Like, would you 134 00:07:00,840 --> 00:07:03,180 just try to learn from every conversation? Or do you have 135 00:07:03,180 --> 00:07:05,160 someone in store that was older than 136 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:08,100 Unknown: you? So I did that completely myself, but it was 137 00:07:08,100 --> 00:07:12,240 more so, yeah, again, it wasn't. There were no benefits to me 138 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:14,760 doing this. I could have been on my phone the whole time, and I 139 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:17,280 would have been paid the exact same amount and got the exact 140 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:20,340 same amount of reward from it. But I, I've always enjoyed just 141 00:07:20,340 --> 00:07:22,880 talking to people. I've always enjoyed sort of having these 142 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:25,820 conversations and just striking up conversations with people and 143 00:07:25,820 --> 00:07:29,900 seeing what comes from them. And I found very early on that if I 144 00:07:29,900 --> 00:07:32,420 put pressure on myself to quote, unquote, sell something or have 145 00:07:32,420 --> 00:07:35,540 someone buy something, and I put pressure on the outcome, then I 146 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:38,360 would make a total mess of it. But if I just wanted to chat 147 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:41,260 with people, then that usually sort of ended up having a good 148 00:07:41,260 --> 00:07:41,560 time for 149 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:43,720 Mark Ackers: both of us. So that's interesting. The game 150 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:44,680 wasn't to sell. No, 151 00:07:45,460 --> 00:07:47,560 Unknown: the game was just to have a conversation, and then at 152 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:51,940 certain points I would introduce new things and see if, see if 153 00:07:51,940 --> 00:07:56,320 people would have would add to their interest or not. Yeah, it 154 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:58,840 was just a really interesting sort of start to it. But I, at 155 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:01,680 the time, I wouldn't have considered a sales whereas now, 156 00:08:01,980 --> 00:08:03,540 now I would understand 157 00:08:03,540 --> 00:08:05,760 Mark Ackers: that. And I think what's interesting though, is it 158 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:08,760 feels at a very young age, you learn, what I think takes 159 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:12,060 sellers far too long to learn, is disconnecting from the 160 00:08:12,060 --> 00:08:15,360 outcome, and that's probably because you you weren't paid if 161 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:18,480 they bought anything. It was just a game. But I'm guessing 162 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:20,660 that being able to disconnect from the outcome is something 163 00:08:20,660 --> 00:08:23,480 you took with you into your first sales job. And it looks 164 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:26,000 like in between there, there's a little bit of a marketing role 165 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:30,260 with media, HQ, but your first real sales job, to me, looks 166 00:08:30,260 --> 00:08:33,260 like was an SDR with Google. Well, it's 167 00:08:33,260 --> 00:08:35,360 Unknown: funny. There's a bit of a gap in there, 168 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:40,099 and it's really interesting. I was a chugger for a little 169 00:08:40,099 --> 00:08:43,239 while, a charity mugger, for anyone who doesn't know that 170 00:08:43,239 --> 00:08:45,339 word, you most people on the street that are wave at uni 171 00:08:45,339 --> 00:08:47,679 going, Hey, can I have your bank account details? That was me. I 172 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:51,279 did it for a summer, and I would consider that to be one of the 173 00:08:51,279 --> 00:08:53,859 best sales trainings I've ever had, even though it was one of 174 00:08:53,859 --> 00:08:57,459 the worst and most toxic environments I've ever been in 175 00:08:57,459 --> 00:09:00,539 in my life. That one was 100% commission sales, that one was 176 00:09:00,539 --> 00:09:03,239 standing at the street and waving at people, and that's 177 00:09:03,239 --> 00:09:06,299 where sort of numbers and the law of averages really gets 178 00:09:06,299 --> 00:09:09,299 hammered in. It was interesting where, you know, as far as we 179 00:09:09,299 --> 00:09:13,079 were concerned, 100 waves was eight stops. Oh, sorry, it was 180 00:09:13,079 --> 00:09:15,899 10 stops. Of those 10 stops, you'd get eight conversations. 181 00:09:15,899 --> 00:09:18,119 Of those eight conversations, you get five closes, and of 182 00:09:18,119 --> 00:09:20,899 those five closes, you get one sale. So it was one of those 183 00:09:20,899 --> 00:09:23,359 things where you had to know your numbers, and you'd people 184 00:09:23,359 --> 00:09:25,819 talk about it with door knocking, but I knew that if I 185 00:09:25,819 --> 00:09:29,659 had spent six hours in a shopping center in the middle of 186 00:09:29,659 --> 00:09:33,679 Ireland waving at people, and I'd wave at 300 people and not a 187 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:36,679 single person had stopped, I had to believe, in my heart of 188 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:40,459 hearts, that the next three people that I wave at, just true 189 00:09:40,459 --> 00:09:43,299 through law of averages would be the ones that would stop, um, 190 00:09:43,299 --> 00:09:46,239 and there was a bunch of different elements that added to 191 00:09:46,239 --> 00:09:48,999 that. I would learned a lot about what good sales management 192 00:09:48,999 --> 00:09:52,179 is by learning what awful sales management is. And then I 193 00:09:52,179 --> 00:09:54,819 learned a lot about sort of myself and how I work in high 194 00:09:54,819 --> 00:09:58,239 pressure environments through through that as well. That was 195 00:09:58,239 --> 00:10:02,999 kind of a sales environment. That then projected me into 196 00:10:02,999 --> 00:10:06,479 deciding that I wanted to go into sales and SDR for Google, 197 00:10:06,479 --> 00:10:09,239 because it was a much better environment for 198 00:10:09,780 --> 00:10:12,840 Mark Ackers: I can imagine. I would love to pick your brains 199 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:15,360 on being a chugger. That's not a phrase I've ever heard of 200 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:19,920 before. But let's remain true to the mission this podcast, and 201 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:24,320 let's focus on on later stages in your career. But yeah, I'm 202 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:26,600 sure there's loads you could talk about, and loads of funny 203 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:31,700 stories, I'm sure as well. So we took the job as an SDR with 204 00:10:31,700 --> 00:10:35,360 Google. Just tell us about that, right? Google is one of those 205 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:38,600 companies that everyone just thinks must be fun to work 206 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:41,620 there, right? They've got the slides, the bean bags, the table 207 00:10:41,620 --> 00:10:45,880 tennis, the whatever, fun chairs and all this stuff. What's it 208 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:49,540 like, being what must be, you know, a young man getting that 209 00:10:49,540 --> 00:10:53,260 job at Google, going from working in a clothes shop, being 210 00:10:53,260 --> 00:10:56,860 a chugger, using your phrase, to working at Google. What was that 211 00:10:56,860 --> 00:10:57,040 like? 212 00:10:57,520 --> 00:10:59,800 Unknown: Well, you know, what's funny, I never saw bean bags, 213 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:03,480 the slides or anything like that, because I started in July 214 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:03,780 2020, 215 00:11:05,580 --> 00:11:06,720 we were all locked down, 216 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:16,020 so I had the glamor and glitz of working from a Chromebook In my 217 00:11:16,020 --> 00:11:25,700 bedroom. So that was sort of the extent to which the glam of of 218 00:11:25,700 --> 00:11:30,260 Google Cloud came in, um, however, the experience that I 219 00:11:30,260 --> 00:11:33,440 had there, what it was like, it was actually really, really 220 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:37,760 interesting, because you'd think that a massive corporation like 221 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:41,140 Google would have everything nailed down, and it's just like 222 00:11:41,140 --> 00:11:44,620 every other sales org, you know, we still have problems with 223 00:11:44,620 --> 00:11:47,140 sales apps. You still have problems with updating your CRM. 224 00:11:47,140 --> 00:11:51,940 You still have problems with, you know, Product Market Fit and 225 00:11:51,940 --> 00:11:55,540 messaging and targets and accounts and commissions and 226 00:11:55,540 --> 00:11:59,140 everything. It has the exact same challenges. And I think the 227 00:11:59,140 --> 00:12:02,460 way they do that is they keep everything small. So I was on a 228 00:12:02,460 --> 00:12:08,400 team of about 20 SDRs targeting the globe. However, in that I 229 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:11,340 was broken up into a smaller team after a little while. And 230 00:12:11,340 --> 00:12:13,800 at the beginning, I started selling enterprise, and then I, 231 00:12:13,860 --> 00:12:18,360 later on, I started selling SMB, but they kept it in quite small, 232 00:12:18,540 --> 00:12:22,340 siloed teams to keep that startup culture and that startup 233 00:12:22,340 --> 00:12:27,980 feel throughout the massive organization. That's kind of the 234 00:12:27,980 --> 00:12:30,380 way that it felt. That's what it was like while I was in there. 235 00:12:30,620 --> 00:12:33,020 Mark Ackers: Would that surprise people? Some of it maybe not 236 00:12:33,020 --> 00:12:38,240 like the CRM universal problem, but having that product market 237 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:42,160 fit, I think, would surprise people. Talk to me about the 238 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:45,700 SDRs that you work with when you joined. You've obviously said at 239 00:12:45,700 --> 00:12:49,420 the start of the podcast, every job you took you initially were 240 00:12:49,420 --> 00:12:53,200 crap at it, and you progressed. But when you reflect back on 241 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:58,240 that SDR team, were you on par? Were they elite? How did that 242 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:00,520 team compare to to yourself? 243 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,560 Unknown: We were normal sellers. We were just regular people. You 244 00:13:04,560 --> 00:13:07,380 go out, you make your calls, you send your emails, you do your 245 00:13:07,380 --> 00:13:11,280 LinkedIn steps, and you come up with tactics and plans and 246 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:14,880 messaging, and then you send them out to people. And it's 247 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:19,320 funny, I actually think selling for Google Cloud was really 248 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:22,940 difficult, and some people would say, Hal, you're Google. Reason 249 00:13:22,940 --> 00:13:27,260 being is, my prospects knew more about Google Cloud than I ever 250 00:13:27,260 --> 00:13:32,960 could. There were three players in that space, AWS, Azure and 251 00:13:33,980 --> 00:13:38,600 GCP, so it's Amazon, Microsoft and Google. I would reach out to 252 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:43,540 a CTO about a specific problem, and they'd go, yeah, all of my 253 00:13:43,540 --> 00:13:46,420 engineers already know about that. They're using this to do 254 00:13:46,420 --> 00:13:50,380 it. Your product is crap because of this. You know, Google Cloud 255 00:13:50,380 --> 00:13:54,340 doesn't fix that problem. For me, they knew more about it than 256 00:13:54,340 --> 00:13:57,760 I did, so a big part of my job was either re educating people 257 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:01,140 or finding the right people with the right messaging. It was a 258 00:14:01,140 --> 00:14:04,800 lot of testing, but that was a strange environment, and that 259 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:07,500 you think you know, everyone wants to talk to Google. They 260 00:14:07,500 --> 00:14:10,260 don't, if they know exactly what you do better than you do, 261 00:14:10,860 --> 00:14:12,900 Mark Ackers: and I think that's really interesting. One of the 262 00:14:12,900 --> 00:14:15,660 things that I talk regularly about when it comes to the 263 00:14:15,660 --> 00:14:19,080 challenges SDR face is they're reaching out to people that they 264 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:22,280 just don't understand, right? Right, like, unless you're going 265 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:25,820 to tell me otherwise, I'm guessing you've not really got a 266 00:14:25,820 --> 00:14:29,120 clue at this point in your career what a CTO goes to work 267 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:31,760 for, the challenges they face, the problems that are going to 268 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:36,320 resonate, what they moan about, the pain of not being on your 269 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:39,680 platform and product and and you don't speak their language, and 270 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:42,820 when you're spending someone that thinks they know everything 271 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:49,180 that can be really difficult. So who enabled you as an SDR and as 272 00:14:49,180 --> 00:14:53,620 an SDR function at Google, who helped you level up and combat 273 00:14:53,620 --> 00:14:53,800 that? 274 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:56,080 Unknown: There was a couple of people in that. So there were 275 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:58,600 obviously the internal ones. There were people who'd been 276 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:01,860 around for a little bit longer. Were the actual ladies in Google 277 00:15:01,860 --> 00:15:04,740 Cloud who obviously had been there longer and knew more about 278 00:15:04,740 --> 00:15:07,800 it. Them bringing me on calls really helped me understand how 279 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:11,160 much I didn't know. Obviously there was enablement people 280 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:13,440 internally, a guy called Ludwig Hofmeister, which is an 281 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:19,500 incredible sales enablement leader based in Ireland, despite 282 00:15:19,500 --> 00:15:24,380 his very German name. However, that actually, at that point in 283 00:15:24,380 --> 00:15:27,260 my career, I actually discovered John Barrows sales and for 284 00:15:27,260 --> 00:15:29,600 anyone who doesn't know him, he's an American sales trainer, 285 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:31,880 and he puts out a lot of content. And I was kind of 286 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:34,400 looking at it going, Oh, that's interesting. That's interesting. 287 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:37,700 That's interesting. I connected with a dude called James Buckley 288 00:15:37,700 --> 00:15:40,720 who used to work, or still works with John Barrows. James is this 289 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:43,180 American trainer. And we just got chatting, and then all of a 290 00:15:43,180 --> 00:15:45,820 sudden James was introducing me to new ways of thinking and new 291 00:15:45,820 --> 00:15:48,400 ways of doing that were very brilliant. They were very me and 292 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:52,120 how I operate. They were very authentic. And I had to lean 293 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:55,600 into the fact that I didn't know as much as the CTOs, and my 294 00:15:55,600 --> 00:16:00,840 messaging changed from I know everything to I know a lot about 295 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:04,260 this one thing that you probably don't know about, let me educate 296 00:16:04,260 --> 00:16:06,900 you. Let me help you. Let me let me challenge you on this. Or 297 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:09,840 while you know way more about the technical specs, here's what 298 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:13,740 everybody else is doing. Can I show you how this could benefit 299 00:16:13,740 --> 00:16:17,880 you as well? And it became a really interesting sort of way 300 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:21,680 of leaning into my incompetence or not knowing what I was doing. 301 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:24,620 Have you come across the Dunning Kruger effect 302 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:27,860 Mark Ackers: I have? But why don't you tell it for those that 303 00:16:27,860 --> 00:16:29,000 are listening? Okay, 304 00:16:29,060 --> 00:16:30,620 Unknown: it's very, very simple. 305 00:16:32,780 --> 00:16:36,380 At the very beginning of learning about a topic, after 306 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:39,500 you get about, you know about 10% of the material, your 307 00:16:39,500 --> 00:16:42,880 confidence is super high. You're like, I put 20 hours into this 308 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:48,100 thing. I know so much about it. And then you put 56789, 10, more 309 00:16:48,100 --> 00:16:52,120 hours into it, and you realize you know nothing. And what 310 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:55,180 happens is you go into what's known as the valley of despair, 311 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:58,900 where you go, I will never know everything that I need to know. 312 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:03,540 And the more time and energy and effort you put into that topic, 313 00:17:03,540 --> 00:17:08,040 that task, that skill, you go way back up in your confidence 314 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:11,100 levels, but it takes a lot longer, and you go from sort of 315 00:17:11,220 --> 00:17:15,360 unconscious incompetence, where you think you know a lot, but 316 00:17:15,360 --> 00:17:19,080 you actually don't, to conscious competence, where you know All 317 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:23,780 of the things that you should know, plus, plus what you don't 318 00:17:23,780 --> 00:17:28,520 know and what I what I ended up doing as an as an as an SDR is 319 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:31,340 at the beginning I'd had this wonderful two months long 320 00:17:31,340 --> 00:17:33,740 training about Google Cloud. As far as I was concerned, I knew 321 00:17:33,740 --> 00:17:37,760 everything about Google Cloud. Was 19 years of age. Oh no, I 322 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:43,960 wasn't. I was 2122 years of age, I knew nothing, right? There 323 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:46,780 were people who had been working on cloud computing longer than I 324 00:17:46,780 --> 00:17:51,460 was alive that I was trying to sell to. But after, after a 325 00:17:51,460 --> 00:17:54,340 while and listening to people and understanding just how much 326 00:17:54,340 --> 00:17:58,120 I didn't know, I realized, all right, I'm now going to lean 327 00:17:58,120 --> 00:18:02,580 into my actual role here, which is connecting people, making a 328 00:18:02,580 --> 00:18:06,180 connection, putting messages in front of people working hard. 329 00:18:06,300 --> 00:18:07,860 That's my value here, not my knowledge. 330 00:18:08,220 --> 00:18:11,160 Mark Ackers: And that's a great sound bite. Hello. I'm Mark the 331 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:13,920 host of the I used to be crap at sales podcast. Thank you for 332 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:16,740 listening. We called the podcast that because it's true and all 333 00:18:16,740 --> 00:18:19,800 of our guests say the same. As a sales leader, you would have 334 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:22,520 been crap ourselves once, no doubt, but that changed, and now 335 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:25,340 you're responsible for a team. It's your job to help that team 336 00:18:25,340 --> 00:18:27,920 get to where you need to get them to, but also it's your job 337 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:30,620 to develop and grow them as sales professionals. Here's the 338 00:18:30,620 --> 00:18:33,440 problem, you don't have the time. You are too busy with 339 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:36,200 other competing priorities, and I get it, but that doesn't mean 340 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:38,420 your sales team should miss out. It doesn't mean they shouldn't 341 00:18:38,420 --> 00:18:41,200 fulfill that potential and grow that's where we come in. If 342 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:43,600 you'd be curious to hear about how we're working with 343 00:18:43,660 --> 00:18:47,800 organizations providing their team with expert coaching on a 344 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:50,980 one to one basis, get in touch. Be happy to have a conversation. 345 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:53,680 What I love about how you explain that is it? It could be 346 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:57,460 coupled very nicely to, I think the challenge we also face as 347 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:03,600 sellers and as humans is this desire to give away information, 348 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:08,160 to show how smart we are. You know, it's, it's, it's like the 349 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:11,220 little professor in us. And I think one of the things you see 350 00:19:11,460 --> 00:19:14,520 when people start a role is because they don't know they ask 351 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:18,180 loads of questions. But when they get to sort of six, 912, 352 00:19:18,540 --> 00:19:21,680 months into the role, they think they know the answers. So their 353 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:24,860 discoveries come more about giving information than 354 00:19:24,860 --> 00:19:27,920 gathering information because they want to showcase. Look, I 355 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:31,700 know I know this. I'm an expert in this. You will trust me. But 356 00:19:31,700 --> 00:19:33,920 actually, what you've got to do is you've got to get over that 357 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:36,740 hump and get to a place where you've got the knowledge, but 358 00:19:36,740 --> 00:19:40,360 you act like a novice, and you continue to discover. And then 359 00:19:40,360 --> 00:19:43,540 only when it becomes really the right time do you share the 360 00:19:43,540 --> 00:19:46,720 information. It couples really nicely with with your theory, in 361 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:47,260 my opinion, 362 00:19:47,260 --> 00:19:49,060 Unknown: that actually comes from a place of almost 363 00:19:49,060 --> 00:19:54,040 insecurity. It's like, I need to prove that I know about this. 364 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:58,000 Instead of actually knowing about it, there's a there's a 365 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:00,960 big level to it, where people go. Go. It's almost like 366 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:03,180 imposter syndrome, where they go, if I don't show in my 367 00:20:03,180 --> 00:20:06,840 questions, then I know exactly what they're talking about. Then 368 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:12,540 they'll think, x, y, z, and when you get to a point where you 369 00:20:12,540 --> 00:20:17,760 realize nobody's thinking about you, that then can help get 370 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:19,560 through that hump that we're talking about 371 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:22,100 Mark Ackers: absolutely and that is a little bit like what you 372 00:20:22,100 --> 00:20:25,100 spoke about earlier on. You're reaching out to CTOs that have 373 00:20:25,100 --> 00:20:28,040 been doing this longer than you've been alive. And imposter 374 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:32,360 syndrome is just something that affects everybody from SDR all 375 00:20:32,360 --> 00:20:35,420 the way up to the very top of the chain. Right? Everyone has a 376 00:20:35,420 --> 00:20:38,000 level of imposter syndrome, but it's something that's hard to 377 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:41,080 self diagnose. It's hard to admit. It's even harder to get 378 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:45,400 coaching on that, and it can affect people so much in their 379 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,400 sales conversations because they don't believe that their 380 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:52,060 prospect will see them at the same level. One of the things I 381 00:20:52,060 --> 00:20:55,600 always say to people when they start working with me is, even 382 00:20:55,600 --> 00:21:01,560 after a day, you know more than 99.99% of the world about this 383 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:04,200 company, because you've had eight hours here, right? And 384 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:07,800 it's about giving them that confidence. Let's talk about 385 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:13,380 your manager at Google. Then talk to me about, well, not just 386 00:21:13,380 --> 00:21:17,100 specifically Google, I suppose, because you were speaking to 387 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:19,980 other managers in the business as well, right? Like you would 388 00:21:19,980 --> 00:21:23,000 have met other sales leaders, but rather than Yeah, focus on 389 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:26,720 the one person. Talk to me about at Google, the sales leadership 390 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:31,940 team that you got to experience. What did the best managers have 391 00:21:31,940 --> 00:21:35,480 in terms of traits and habits, because you've alluded to 392 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:39,140 learning about bad practice in an earlier role. Talk to me 393 00:21:39,140 --> 00:21:41,980 about what traits and habits good managers have from your 394 00:21:41,980 --> 00:21:43,660 experience at Google. In Google, 395 00:21:43,660 --> 00:21:49,180 Unknown: there was a couple of different levels, but every 396 00:21:49,180 --> 00:21:54,820 single manager knew their role in that almost hierarchy. My 397 00:21:54,820 --> 00:21:59,320 manager, as SDR manager, he knew 100% his job was to look after 398 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:05,040 me and make sure that I as his rep was fine, emotionally, 399 00:22:05,220 --> 00:22:08,820 physically and hitting target. All of those were key to him, 400 00:22:08,820 --> 00:22:13,740 especially during a pandemic. Right above him, he that manager 401 00:22:13,740 --> 00:22:17,220 knew that he needed to make sure that all the SDR managers were 402 00:22:17,220 --> 00:22:20,840 fine, that they were all working well, but they were able to 403 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:23,480 produce their results, and then above them, they actually had to 404 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:26,300 look at overall org structure. And it's funny, knowing this 405 00:22:26,300 --> 00:22:29,600 from an SDR level, I knew my manager, knew exactly his role, 406 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:32,180 who supported him, and how he was supported, and knew how that 407 00:22:32,180 --> 00:22:35,480 rolls up the chain. And because it was so clearly defined, not 408 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:40,780 in rigid senses, but in a secure sense, he knew exactly where his 409 00:22:40,780 --> 00:22:43,540 boundaries were here, where his responsibilities were, and that 410 00:22:43,540 --> 00:22:47,440 allowed him to then be creative within those walls. As far as 411 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:49,240 I'm concerned, when the walls are blurred or when the 412 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:51,700 obstacles are blurred, you there's no room for creativity. 413 00:22:51,940 --> 00:22:54,640 Creativity is wonderful in a box. You just have to know where 414 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:59,800 the box is. So my manager knew exactly what he needed to get 415 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:03,720 out of me, and then he focused properly on two things. I was at 416 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:06,840 the beginning of my SDR career. We focused very much on numbers, 417 00:23:07,020 --> 00:23:10,260 not on output, but on the numbers that actually mattered. 418 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,440 He shared with me the difference between, you know, your vanity 419 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:16,980 metrics of KPIs plus the ones that actually mattered, and then 420 00:23:16,980 --> 00:23:20,160 how they filtered into the overall org. And we also focused 421 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:22,880 on numbers of other performers and top, top sellers and top 422 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:27,560 performers. He gave me something very, very tangible to do, and 423 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:30,380 now looking back, it was because he wanted me to get my reps in. 424 00:23:30,380 --> 00:23:35,060 He wanted to make me to make sure that I was getting 1000 425 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:41,080 calls in, you know, a year or 1000 emails. Because the more he 426 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:46,000 knew, the more I did it, the better I was going to become. So 427 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:50,380 throughout that, he focused very much on where I was at in my 428 00:23:50,380 --> 00:23:56,680 career, not where he wanted me to be. That was key. And then it 429 00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:59,920 was funny, because we're a sales where we were sales role, he 430 00:23:59,920 --> 00:24:04,560 actually took the pressure off on the results side, not more. 431 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:08,160 So he took the thread away. He was like, if things start to go 432 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:11,040 south, here's the process. And he did this very early in my 433 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:13,440 career. He was like, here's the process. You're not going to get 434 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:15,840 a knock on the door one day and be told you're out. Here's what 435 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:20,040 the process is for and why it is the way it is and how it works. 436 00:24:20,100 --> 00:24:23,840 And that removed the anxiety from me, not the anxiety of 437 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:29,000 selling that, but that didn't leave for years, but the anxiety 438 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:33,740 of, if I'm bad at this, I will be let go. I was almost like I 439 00:24:33,740 --> 00:24:37,940 was given permission to be bad at it at the beginning. And that 440 00:24:37,940 --> 00:24:40,520 was really key. So it was a couple of different elements to 441 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,360 it, and that he was secure in himself and knew where his 442 00:24:43,360 --> 00:24:45,640 boundaries were. I knew where my boundaries were. I knew the 443 00:24:45,700 --> 00:24:49,000 worst case scenario. I knew the best case scenario, and he gave 444 00:24:49,060 --> 00:24:52,180 me something very clear to focus on, which was, here are the 445 00:24:52,180 --> 00:24:54,760 numbers that we need to look at. At the beginning of your career. 446 00:24:55,180 --> 00:24:56,140 That was key for me. 447 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:57,940 Mark Ackers: Sounds like he just knew how to create an 448 00:24:57,940 --> 00:25:01,200 environment where you felt comfortable. All to do what was 449 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,020 being asked of you and be successful. About the pressure. 450 00:25:04,860 --> 00:25:07,680 What did your one to ones typically look like? Then my 451 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:09,660 Unknown: one to ones were manager one to ones. They were 452 00:25:09,660 --> 00:25:12,900 not coaching one to ones. They were number run throughs. Here's 453 00:25:12,900 --> 00:25:15,120 what other people are doing. Maybe show me an email or two, 454 00:25:15,120 --> 00:25:17,280 but it was every center will know this. You get in, you talk 455 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:19,440 about your numbers, you talk about what, what's going well 456 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:21,540 and why it's cost going badly. You're asked a couple of 457 00:25:21,540 --> 00:25:25,100 questions. You don't really have any follow ups to do afterwards. 458 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:29,360 It's quote, unquote check ins. Are you doing? Okay? What are 459 00:25:29,360 --> 00:25:32,900 your numbers like? Okay, when you change that number, make 460 00:25:32,900 --> 00:25:36,020 more calls, make more emails, do these things, etc. It's nothing 461 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:40,420 it's nothing crazy. The coaching element was led by somebody 462 00:25:40,420 --> 00:25:42,880 else. So he just, he just did the standard manager stuff. 463 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:43,960 Mark Ackers: How did that make you feel? 464 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,480 Unknown: Pretty fine. I was happy with that at the time. I 465 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:50,200 didn't know what I was missing. Okay, I did feel a little quote, 466 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:54,700 unquote scrutinized at the time, but that's kinda, that's part of 467 00:25:54,700 --> 00:25:56,920 the job. That's part of the role. You know, it was more 468 00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,500 being held accountable to the right things. I don't have any 469 00:25:59,500 --> 00:26:03,300 sort of really positive or negatives to say, with that sort 470 00:26:03,300 --> 00:26:06,480 of management style, it suited what he needed to do and it 471 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:10,140 suited what I needed. Kind of at the time, I would never take 472 00:26:10,140 --> 00:26:14,040 that management style now, given you know, the journey I've been 473 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:14,940 on so 474 00:26:14,940 --> 00:26:17,640 Mark Ackers: you said you didn't know you missing out on, looking 475 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,720 back now, with your coaching hat on, what were you missing out on 476 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:21,740 questions, 477 00:26:21,740 --> 00:26:24,500 Unknown: not answers? I would say something along the lines 478 00:26:24,500 --> 00:26:27,380 of, I'm not getting enough call connects. And the response would 479 00:26:27,380 --> 00:26:32,840 be, here's how you fix that. That's a manager hat. Or we need 480 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:35,120 to get your call connect rates up. We're going to focus on 481 00:26:35,120 --> 00:26:37,460 these numbers and hits, hey, this is how we're going to focus 482 00:26:37,460 --> 00:26:40,120 on those numbers. A coaching hat is very different. The A if 483 00:26:40,120 --> 00:26:42,760 someone comes to me and says, I need to get my call connects up, 484 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:45,160 I start asking questions. And that's what coaches will do. 485 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:47,620 Coaches will ask questions like, Who you're calling, when are you 486 00:26:47,620 --> 00:26:51,700 calling? Them, what numbers are you using? And they will try and 487 00:26:51,700 --> 00:26:55,120 gain a much deeper understanding. And then what I 488 00:26:55,120 --> 00:26:59,020 would have liked was for him to ask me questions, whereby the 489 00:26:59,020 --> 00:27:01,200 direction of the questions helped me to come to my own 490 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:03,420 conclusion. Easiest way to describe this is, at the 491 00:27:03,420 --> 00:27:06,840 beginning, I would tell Nathan, every single time, I'm bad at 492 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:11,100 cold calling, because all I was getting was non Connect. I 493 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,580 wasn't really connecting with people. Turns out CTOs don't 494 00:27:14,580 --> 00:27:18,120 pick up numbers who knew. And as because I wasn't getting enough 495 00:27:18,120 --> 00:27:20,900 reps, and I was like, I'm bad at cold calling. And as a manager, 496 00:27:20,900 --> 00:27:23,480 he'd go, No, you're not. Here's how we boost your Connect 497 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:27,560 rights. As a coach, you have to ask the question, why are you 498 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:31,880 bad at cold calling? And you get down to making the other person 499 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:35,360 realize that the reality is that they're not talking to enough 500 00:27:35,660 --> 00:27:38,720 people because of call connect rates, not that they're bad at 501 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:41,180 calling. And I would have enjoyed a little bit more of 502 00:27:41,180 --> 00:27:43,720 that sort of paradigm breaking at the time. Breaking earlier on 503 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:44,200 in my career. 504 00:27:44,620 --> 00:27:47,620 Mark Ackers: Here's the thing, that's how most one to ones go. 505 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:51,100 Most managers don't coach. Why do you think that is 506 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:55,240 Unknown: they don't know any better? Um, you know, they were, 507 00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:57,580 they were managed in a certain way, so they'll get mad. Don't 508 00:27:57,580 --> 00:28:00,420 matter someone else in a certain way. But also, their managers 509 00:28:00,420 --> 00:28:04,740 are asking them about about numbers and results and things 510 00:28:04,740 --> 00:28:07,620 like that. So if the CRO is asking the VP of sales, asking 511 00:28:07,620 --> 00:28:10,860 the sales directors, asking the SDR leaders, asking the SDRs and 512 00:28:10,860 --> 00:28:13,140 its numbers all the way down, what else you gonna get when I 513 00:28:13,140 --> 00:28:15,360 was in, when I was an account manager, at least at the 514 00:28:15,360 --> 00:28:17,640 beginning, most of my one on ones were just deal reviews. 515 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:19,920 What's happening this deal? What's happening this deal? 516 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:21,960 Something this deal? What's happening this deal? Do you have 517 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:24,500 next steps? Yes. Yes. Deal? Do you have next steps? Yes, yes, 518 00:28:24,500 --> 00:28:28,100 yes. Okay, cool. Update the CRM, please. You know that was most 519 00:28:28,100 --> 00:28:33,080 of those sessions we then had to dedicate time to coaching, and 520 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:35,720 sometimes, sometimes it happened and sometimes they didn't. But 521 00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,360 you know, the manager one on ones where someone was about was 522 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:42,880 going to ask them what I was doing, those answers were always 523 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,040 given, whereas the coaching ones now they weren't always 524 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:47,620 fulfilled, at least at the beginning of my time as an AM, 525 00:28:47,620 --> 00:28:50,380 Mark Ackers: and that is where the challenge lies. The manager 526 00:28:50,620 --> 00:28:54,580 using the one to one to fulfill their agenda and their goals for 527 00:28:54,580 --> 00:28:57,700 what they need to provide up, rather than making it about the 528 00:28:57,700 --> 00:29:02,040 individual, you talk about how your journey has shown you a 529 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:07,320 different way. Let's get into that SalesLoft, you took another 530 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:12,480 SDR role at SalesLoft at the time. What was the appeal? 531 00:29:12,780 --> 00:29:15,780 Unknown: SalesLoft had the best sellers in the world selling a 532 00:29:15,780 --> 00:29:20,960 technology that I loved. I got to a place in Google Cloud. So 533 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,020 Google Cloud bought sales left as a tool to use, and I was the 534 00:29:24,020 --> 00:29:26,600 EMEA guinea pig for that. So I was spending half my days 535 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,120 teaching people how to use sales left, and half my days teaching 536 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,120 people, you know, cold calling and selling for for Google 537 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:34,880 Cloud. And at that point, I was quite good at in Google Cloud, I 538 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,820 was the top there's a story about me hitting q2 target in 539 00:29:37,820 --> 00:29:43,720 four days with my my second last quarter there. So I had a lot of 540 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:48,760 time on my hands to fulfill with this. And I kind of looked up 541 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:53,980 for a second, and I saw the AES that had years of experience in 542 00:29:53,980 --> 00:29:58,240 Google Cloud, and I could see myself on a track earning 100k a 543 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:02,220 year, 24 years of age. Working for Google, living in Dublin, 544 00:30:02,220 --> 00:30:05,460 selling Google Cloud to small businesses. You know, really, 545 00:30:05,460 --> 00:30:10,560 really cool work, but it would have required me to care about 546 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:15,060 CTOs, CIOs and their problems. And I went, I don't know, I 547 00:30:15,060 --> 00:30:17,940 spent half my days talking about this really cool tech. And then 548 00:30:17,940 --> 00:30:20,480 when I looked at the business, it was full of some of the best 549 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:22,400 sellers, the best sales leadership, the best sales 550 00:30:22,820 --> 00:30:25,700 thought leadership, the best sales culture. I'd come across 551 00:30:25,700 --> 00:30:28,940 given the opportunity to move to London, and I went, you know 552 00:30:28,940 --> 00:30:33,800 what I want to get in there. So then I did that. I applied for 553 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:35,660 sales and after and got in there, and 554 00:30:35,660 --> 00:30:37,580 Mark Ackers: it feels like you had huge success there. I 555 00:30:37,580 --> 00:30:40,720 noticed in your LinkedIn, it said you were the second highest 556 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:45,160 performing SDR in your region, Callum McKenzie and yeah, shout 557 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:49,060 out to Callum McKenzie for for being number one. Um, what was 558 00:30:49,060 --> 00:30:51,700 Callum doing differently to you? That 559 00:30:51,700 --> 00:30:54,460 Unknown: man is a workhorse. That man is nothing but 560 00:30:54,460 --> 00:30:58,600 consistent. Callum just gets it done. So 561 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,380 Mark Ackers: I was going to push you on that, because when I ask 562 00:31:01,380 --> 00:31:04,560 sales leaders, what do their top performers do differently? And 563 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,680 they say, Oh, they work harder, or they're a workhorse, I'm sure 564 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:11,280 they are. But there are traits and habits that are different, 565 00:31:11,820 --> 00:31:14,940 and it feels like you've just touched upon it there as well. 566 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:19,920 So Callum would just continually ask for help, seek feedback and 567 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:23,420 use that, I'm guessing. What about in his conversations? What 568 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:27,140 was he doing differently there, when he was reaching out and 569 00:31:27,140 --> 00:31:30,920 booking meetings as an SDR, was he doing anything different with 570 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:32,360 his outreach? To you very 571 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:35,720 Unknown: little we'd always share things across teams. In 572 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:40,060 his continuous work on himself was consistent. So I 573 00:31:40,060 --> 00:31:43,120 Mark Ackers: get he was working on himself. I get that he was 574 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:46,960 seeking feedback. I get that he worked maybe just that, just a 575 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:51,400 little bit harder and maybe more focused and didn't maybe veer 576 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:55,720 off the track to try new things. But I'm curious in his actual 577 00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:59,500 conversations, was he doing anything differently with 578 00:31:59,500 --> 00:32:00,220 prospects? 579 00:32:00,580 --> 00:32:02,760 Unknown: The conversations that we were, we were having, would 580 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:08,880 have been quite similar, maybe 1% to 5% different. It was the 581 00:32:09,180 --> 00:32:11,880 it was the the other work that I think made the made the 582 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:12,420 difference 583 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:14,040 Mark Ackers: talking about people that weren't as 584 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:18,060 successful as you and and Callum in the role, what mistakes are 585 00:32:18,060 --> 00:32:20,340 they making that could have been avoided. 586 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:26,000 Unknown: There is a set way of doing the SDR role, or a role in 587 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:29,720 your organization, and what everyone will do is they'll tell 588 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:33,860 you go and copy the top performer. Okay, so let's say 589 00:32:33,860 --> 00:32:37,580 you do that. You go in, you take exactly the top performer is 590 00:32:37,580 --> 00:32:42,880 doing, and you copy it. If that is all you do, you will be a 591 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:48,880 middle of the middle of the rail performer. Because what people 592 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:52,180 would do is they'd set one way of doing things and then 593 00:32:52,180 --> 00:32:55,840 consistently repeat that one way of doing it, regardless as to 594 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,060 whether it was working or not, or getting them the results. Are 595 00:32:58,060 --> 00:33:00,120 they not it was the quote, unquote, right way of doing it, 596 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,240 and they were looking for the right way of doing it. 597 00:33:03,660 --> 00:33:05,880 Unfortunately, with sales, there's no right way of doing 598 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,700 things. Everything is relative. Everything is relative to the 599 00:33:08,700 --> 00:33:11,760 situation that you're in. The markets. Change the person in 600 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:14,160 front of you, change their mood has changed from the last time 601 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:17,220 you talked to them. Everything is consistently changing, and 602 00:33:17,220 --> 00:33:23,000 you as a seller need to be able to maneuver that and watch out 603 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:26,780 for that, and be ready for that. Rather than going, Hey, I've put 604 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:29,840 the right ingredients in and I've put it in the right 605 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:32,300 process. Why am I not getting the results? Sales isn't like 606 00:33:32,300 --> 00:33:34,580 that. And people like to think of it as, you know, people like 607 00:33:34,580 --> 00:33:36,440 to think of it as that, especially because we were 608 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:39,200 working with a product that sort of processified the outbound 609 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:44,680 process. It was, you know, it was almost conducive to having a 610 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:49,720 mechanized or a process driven methodology of, if I just put 611 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:53,080 more inputs in, I'll get more outputs. But that that gets you 612 00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:56,620 a baseline, the extra bits of becoming a top performing 613 00:33:56,620 --> 00:33:59,320 seller. You need a bit of creativity. You need a big extra 614 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:01,440 ways of doing things. You need consistent, continuous 615 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:06,360 improvement. That's, that's the difference that it makes between 616 00:34:06,900 --> 00:34:10,200 someone who becomes a middle of the road performer and someone 617 00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:16,740 who, who, I guess, yeah, gets bored too quickly to stay, to 618 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:18,780 stay a middle of the road performer. It 619 00:34:18,780 --> 00:34:20,780 Mark Ackers: feels like it sounds loft is where you really 620 00:34:20,780 --> 00:34:24,560 flourished and developed as a sales professional. Talk about 621 00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:27,500 the manager that you had there and the impact they had on your 622 00:34:27,500 --> 00:34:29,360 development. So I had three 623 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:30,380 Unknown: managers in sales left. 624 00:34:31,820 --> 00:34:34,940 I had one as an SDR, and then I had two as an account manager. 625 00:34:35,180 --> 00:34:39,740 What was really consistent was their care and attention for me 626 00:34:39,740 --> 00:34:42,340 and my personal growth and my personal professional 627 00:34:42,340 --> 00:34:46,180 development that was above and beyond anything I'd ever seen. 628 00:34:46,780 --> 00:34:49,180 They really taught me the difference between a manager and 629 00:34:49,180 --> 00:34:52,660 a leader. Managers focus on numbers, leaders focus on 630 00:34:52,900 --> 00:34:53,560 trajectory 631 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:57,040 and just growth in general. 632 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:05,160 And I. What I really learned was that a great leader can manage a 633 00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:08,280 team quite well, but a great manager isn't a good leader, and 634 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:10,680 we can spend a long time chatting about the differences 635 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:14,400 between the two, but what they did quite differently was find 636 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:18,600 opportunities for me proactively, or point out things 637 00:35:18,660 --> 00:35:24,200 I didn't know, be able to tell me exactly what other reps were 638 00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:26,840 doing that was and wasn't working, and proactively provide 639 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:31,040 that information to me so I could add it into my mix and 640 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:35,540 force me to take breaks. That was key for every single one of 641 00:35:35,540 --> 00:35:39,320 my managers forced me to take breaks I didn't take a proper 642 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:44,980 break in sales loft for 10 months. A reason being was 643 00:35:44,980 --> 00:35:48,940 because for my first five, six months, I was on the Enterprise 644 00:35:48,940 --> 00:35:52,120 team, and then I was like, Yeah, I'll take an I'll take a new 645 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:55,240 I'll take a break when the new year begins. And then all of a 646 00:35:55,240 --> 00:35:57,760 sudden, I was kicked to a new team, and I went, Well, I can't 647 00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:01,140 change now. So spent a couple months almost completely burned 648 00:36:01,140 --> 00:36:04,260 myself out, went on holidays for two weeks, came back, hit my 649 00:36:04,260 --> 00:36:09,360 target in about a week and a half, and they're proactively 650 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:14,280 making sure that it doesn't matter what Brian thinks. If 651 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:18,000 Brian thinks what he's doing is okay, I'm gonna push him to look 652 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,900 after himself. That was key for me, a guest 653 00:36:20,900 --> 00:36:24,380 Mark Ackers: I recently had on the on the podcast, spoke about 654 00:36:24,380 --> 00:36:28,700 that. Spoke about managers identifying burnout, encouraging 655 00:36:28,700 --> 00:36:31,340 people to use their holidays and actually not just have, like one 656 00:36:31,340 --> 00:36:34,340 day off. It's like, take a break, take a week off, take two 657 00:36:34,340 --> 00:36:38,600 weeks off, and you speak about experiencing burnout. What are 658 00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:43,000 the early signs to look for in someone burning out. 659 00:36:43,240 --> 00:36:44,380 Unknown: You're on autopilot. 660 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:49,360 You're working on autopilot. You're going to work because 661 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,600 work is the next best thing to do. You your calendar is 662 00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:55,000 dictating everything in your life, and you're just following 663 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:57,280 that. You're up. You're living life on autopilot. As a lot of 664 00:36:57,280 --> 00:36:59,740 people will feel that they live in life on autopilot, and that's 665 00:36:59,740 --> 00:37:03,060 fine. You might not necessarily be burned out, but in the sales 666 00:37:03,060 --> 00:37:08,760 role, if there is no creativity, if there is no new way of doing 667 00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:12,960 things, if there are no choices in your day, if it's okay, I'm 668 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:16,080 gonna get in. I'm gonna answer my emails. I'm gonna answer my 669 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:18,660 slacks. I'm gonna do these meetings, and then I'm gonna do 670 00:37:18,660 --> 00:37:20,940 x, y, z, and then I'm gonna go home and I'm gonna do this 671 00:37:20,940 --> 00:37:22,820 thing. I might go to the gym. You might go to the gym. You 672 00:37:22,820 --> 00:37:25,160 might be doing all the right things, but if you're not 673 00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:27,560 actually making any choices, including in your day, that I 674 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:30,800 think is a first step medically, you lose touch with your 675 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,260 emotions. You start to dissociate. I'm a well 676 00:37:33,260 --> 00:37:36,140 therapized individual now at this point, after having burnt 677 00:37:36,140 --> 00:37:41,020 out twice, so I have now able to spot it way quicker with my 678 00:37:41,020 --> 00:37:43,600 connection to emotions. But for anyone who isn't, if you find 679 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,060 that you're on autopilot and haven't taken a break in a long 680 00:37:46,060 --> 00:37:50,680 time, check just see at that point. Oh, and if the thought of 681 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:54,760 taking a break scares you, they're probably burned out. If 682 00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:59,500 the idea of, oh, wow, I can't take a week off, not because of, 683 00:37:59,500 --> 00:38:02,280 you know, extranuting circumstances, because I but 684 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:06,060 because I don't know what that's like, then you've been living in 685 00:38:06,060 --> 00:38:06,900 the matrix too long. 686 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:11,220 Mark Ackers: So as a coach, how do you spot burnout in an 687 00:38:11,220 --> 00:38:14,760 individual before they spot it themselves? You you speak about 688 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:18,780 being proactive. As a great leader, how do you proactively 689 00:38:18,780 --> 00:38:20,340 spot burnout in someone else? 690 00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:23,780 Unknown: They have absolutely no emotions when they're speaking 691 00:38:23,780 --> 00:38:27,020 about the problem that they're coming to you with. Nobody goes 692 00:38:27,020 --> 00:38:29,480 to a coach without having some kind of problem in their head, 693 00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:32,360 or at least our jobs as coaches is to pull problems out of 694 00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:35,000 people. So even if they come in and go, I'm fine, my job is to 695 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:38,840 help find areas of improvement. And if I can't attach that to 696 00:38:38,900 --> 00:38:43,660 any kind of emotion whatsoever, that's a red flag for me. If 697 00:38:43,660 --> 00:38:46,780 someone is telling me, you know, I'm not hitting my target, and I 698 00:38:46,780 --> 00:38:49,660 go, how does that make you feel? And they go, Well, I'm not 699 00:38:49,660 --> 00:38:54,580 hitting my target. Like, hang on, how does that make you feel? 700 00:38:54,580 --> 00:38:59,020 And if they can't verbalize any kind of emotion whatsoever, I'm 701 00:38:59,020 --> 00:39:01,380 I'm red flags are going off in my head. And I'm going all 702 00:39:01,380 --> 00:39:03,720 right, where am I finding you? What's going on here? There's 703 00:39:03,720 --> 00:39:06,660 additional things, and I'm starting to talk about life and 704 00:39:06,660 --> 00:39:09,480 family and situations and things like that, which can make some 705 00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:12,000 people relatively uncomfortable, because, you know, you come to 706 00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:14,520 me for cold calling, email writing, just getting better as 707 00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:17,160 a seller, and all of a sudden I'm talking about your dad. It's 708 00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:20,040 not even that. It's all linked. It's all imperative to each 709 00:39:20,340 --> 00:39:23,540 other. Do you know the worst sales days I've had have been 710 00:39:23,540 --> 00:39:27,620 after fights at my girlfriend, but not realizing that I was 711 00:39:27,620 --> 00:39:30,320 walking into work with that energy. No wonder they weren't 712 00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:33,740 enjoying my cold calls. I was still angry about the 713 00:39:33,740 --> 00:39:36,140 conversation I had with my girlfriend. I was angry on the 714 00:39:36,140 --> 00:39:40,940 phone. Um, so that is how I spotted as a coach, I try and 715 00:39:40,940 --> 00:39:43,540 attach it to some kind of emotion. And most people are 716 00:39:43,540 --> 00:39:46,180 able to verbalize an emotion, even if they're not, you know, 717 00:39:46,420 --> 00:39:49,780 Zen and monk like you're able to verbalize some kind of emotion. 718 00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:50,980 That's what's key to me. 719 00:39:51,220 --> 00:39:54,460 Mark Ackers: And let's talk about now the people that you've 720 00:39:54,460 --> 00:39:57,580 had that you would speak to, right? So your boss is at 721 00:39:57,580 --> 00:40:00,720 Google, at sounds loft, and you spoke really high. In particular 722 00:40:00,720 --> 00:40:04,380 about sales loft hiring the best sales leaders and sales talent. 723 00:40:04,860 --> 00:40:08,340 No doubt they didn't suffer any falls at Google as well from a 724 00:40:08,340 --> 00:40:11,580 leadership point of view. Indeed, let's imagine you were 725 00:40:11,580 --> 00:40:17,040 tasked with creating the perfect sales leader. What habits and 726 00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:21,020 traits do they have? What do they care about where do they 727 00:40:21,020 --> 00:40:21,800 spend their time? 728 00:40:22,580 --> 00:40:24,560 Unknown: A manager is someone 729 00:40:26,180 --> 00:40:32,960 who internally cares deeply about the data, and externally, 730 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:37,160 could not care less. It's such a strange sentence, but what I 731 00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:43,720 mean by that is they themselves need to be on top of the machine 732 00:40:43,720 --> 00:40:47,740 that they're running, every element of it, know, every cog, 733 00:40:47,980 --> 00:40:53,800 every spoke, every single element of that. And then when 734 00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:57,160 it comes to working with their reps, they shouldn't even talk 735 00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:01,620 about numbers. They should go way deeper into the person who 736 00:41:01,620 --> 00:41:05,220 they are, what they're getting on with, what they do and don't 737 00:41:05,340 --> 00:41:09,240 even like finding, creating in their environment that works 738 00:41:09,240 --> 00:41:14,640 best for them. Metea shaper, who now runs her own business and 739 00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:19,320 was an incredible SDR for sales out on the doc market, didn't 740 00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:22,220 call call because she booked all of her meetings through 741 00:41:22,220 --> 00:41:26,660 LinkedIn. And then there were some people who just co called 742 00:41:26,660 --> 00:41:28,940 in sales lot and booked all the meetings through that and did 743 00:41:28,940 --> 00:41:33,740 never, never did a single thing on LinkedIn and being able to 744 00:41:34,340 --> 00:41:39,020 find the right thing for your reps rather than telling them 745 00:41:39,020 --> 00:41:42,280 what the right thing is. That's what the manager should be. But 746 00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:44,440 they themselves should know every single element of the 747 00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:47,680 data, the KPIs, how it marks, how it moves, everything like 748 00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:51,640 that. But I, as a rep shouldn't know that you care about your 749 00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:54,640 numbers at all, because when you are only numbers focused, I'm 750 00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:57,340 only numbers focused, and that's going to lead to bad behaviors. 751 00:41:57,520 --> 00:41:59,680 Mark Ackers: And how does your answer change? And if I said 752 00:41:59,920 --> 00:42:01,380 sales leader, leaders 753 00:42:01,380 --> 00:42:05,760 Unknown: are all about empowerment. So with them, it's 754 00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:10,500 almost like a folly. Sharp is one of the best people in this 755 00:42:10,500 --> 00:42:13,620 space where what he does is he goes, All right, is the entire 756 00:42:13,620 --> 00:42:18,840 sales org happy? If it is, I know that if the targets are 757 00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:21,800 realistic, they're gonna hit it. Now, obviously he's way more 758 00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:26,120 detailed than that, but a leadership in a role is very 759 00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:29,480 much about empowerment rather than enablement. Managers job 760 00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:31,520 should be to take all the obstacles out of the way and 761 00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:35,060 just let you run. A leader's job should be to point you in the 762 00:42:35,060 --> 00:42:37,880 right direction and make fill you up with energy juice. If I 763 00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:42,220 were to create a leader, what they do all day, every day, is 764 00:42:42,220 --> 00:42:48,760 speak to reps, customers, things like that, and focus deeply on 765 00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:52,540 the human element and the human level. And then they should be 766 00:42:52,540 --> 00:42:57,940 solving problems on, how do I make the humans happier and 767 00:42:57,940 --> 00:43:02,220 better? Not the machine, but everybody in that machine that I 768 00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:04,800 think is the difference between a leader, some 769 00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:07,440 Mark Ackers: great answers there. I've really enjoyed 770 00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:10,800 listening to you there, Brian explain what a great manager 771 00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:14,100 comprises of and a great leader, and the analogies and stories as 772 00:43:14,100 --> 00:43:19,560 well. Let's come with some closing questions to bring us 773 00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:23,240 towards the end of the podcast. I'm keen, as a sales coach that 774 00:43:23,240 --> 00:43:28,400 you are to get your take on this. How often should a sales 775 00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:31,460 rep receive one to one coaching from their manager? 776 00:43:31,700 --> 00:43:34,280 Unknown: My standard is once a week, right? And it's dedicated 777 00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:38,180 coaching time, not manager time. It's dedicated upskilling things 778 00:43:38,180 --> 00:43:41,620 like that, right? That's that's a standard answer. Some managers 779 00:43:41,620 --> 00:43:44,500 shouldn't coach and some reps should not be coached by their 780 00:43:44,500 --> 00:43:47,800 managers. Reps will need continuous development and 781 00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:50,860 someone they can speak with about the coaching element. But 782 00:43:50,860 --> 00:43:54,220 the whole point of a coach is to ask questions and guide people 783 00:43:54,220 --> 00:43:58,360 to answering their own questions. A manager's job, in 784 00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:01,320 some cases, is to give answers, and a coach's job is not to give 785 00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:05,460 answers. So how often it should be happening? Happening is, you 786 00:44:05,460 --> 00:44:08,520 know, as often as needed, at the very beginning of a career, 787 00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:11,760 perhaps mainly coaching, every 123, days. Whereas, you know, if 788 00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:13,740 you've had 30 years in sales, you're actually going to 789 00:44:13,740 --> 00:44:16,320 probably shy away from a coach because you might not even want 790 00:44:16,500 --> 00:44:16,740 to 791 00:44:16,740 --> 00:44:18,420 Mark Ackers: be called out. Talk to me more about that. What? 792 00:44:18,420 --> 00:44:22,100 What is your experience of the average manager and their 793 00:44:22,100 --> 00:44:23,000 coaching ability. 794 00:44:23,240 --> 00:44:28,520 Unknown: This comes from not my experience as a coach E but my 795 00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:32,600 experience of selling to sales managers and sales leaders. 796 00:44:33,500 --> 00:44:38,000 Typically the route is, you were a wonderful rep, so let's put 797 00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:40,100 you in charge of a bunch of other reps, and then you can 798 00:44:40,100 --> 00:44:43,420 just, you know, create a bunch more use right? That's the 799 00:44:43,420 --> 00:44:47,260 standard track for for managers. And someone goes, Wait, I can 800 00:44:47,260 --> 00:44:49,660 make money off somebody else's deals and earn a commission on 801 00:44:49,660 --> 00:44:51,880 their percentage as well as my own. Yeah, sure, I'll do that. 802 00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:56,140 I'll just tell them what I did, and then they get numbers 803 00:44:56,140 --> 00:44:58,780 focused, and the skills that helped them really excel as a 804 00:44:58,780 --> 00:45:01,680 rep are the exact. Opposite skills that help them as a 805 00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:06,000 manager. Harvard Business Review did deals on did did work on 806 00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:09,480 this. Years ago, I studied, I learned about this in college. 807 00:45:09,780 --> 00:45:15,720 Number one skill of a of a sales manager is listening. That is 808 00:45:15,720 --> 00:45:18,000 not necessarily, although it should be, but that is not 809 00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:20,700 necessarily the number one skill of a top performing sales rep. 810 00:45:20,700 --> 00:45:26,960 The idea is that most managers are results focused and results 811 00:45:27,020 --> 00:45:30,800 oriented. From a numbers perspective, coaches are growth 812 00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:36,020 focused and progression focused. So they're not necessarily 813 00:45:36,020 --> 00:45:40,120 always focused on numbers. They're they're focused on, I 814 00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:43,840 guess expanding the human being that's in front of them. And 815 00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:46,240 those are not always the same, and they should they shouldn't 816 00:45:46,240 --> 00:45:49,240 have to be. You know, sometimes, if you need a hardcore numbers 817 00:45:49,240 --> 00:45:52,360 driven manager that can instill fear in a bunch of junior reps, 818 00:45:52,720 --> 00:45:54,820 and that's what your business is built on, 819 00:45:56,740 --> 00:45:59,260 they're not going to be a good coach, and that's on purpose. I 820 00:45:59,260 --> 00:46:01,380 Mark Ackers: couldn't agree more. But therein lies the 821 00:46:01,380 --> 00:46:03,840 challenge, because we spoke about this earlier on, you feed 822 00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:06,840 up as a manager, and therefore you have your own goals, your 823 00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:11,280 own objectives. You've got your own reports to put together, and 824 00:46:11,460 --> 00:46:16,800 it's almost an impossible task to be a manager and a coach, 825 00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:19,980 because you have your own agenda. You have things that you 826 00:46:19,980 --> 00:46:23,120 need that team to do, and that might not align to their growth 827 00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:27,500 needs, and therein lies, lies the challenge. And that's why we 828 00:46:27,500 --> 00:46:30,860 have people like you and my sales coach to be that external 829 00:46:30,860 --> 00:46:33,740 person that isn't connected to the goals, isn't connected to 830 00:46:33,740 --> 00:46:36,680 the to the company, number and visiting and you can spend your 831 00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:39,620 time what you're very good at not being connected to the 832 00:46:39,620 --> 00:46:43,000 outcome. This is about being connected to the individual and 833 00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:48,700 their needs. What's the one thing that you do consistently 834 00:46:48,700 --> 00:46:52,720 as a coach to really help reps level up? 835 00:46:53,140 --> 00:46:56,920 Unknown: Every rep has a stupid idea in their head that I need 836 00:46:56,920 --> 00:47:02,400 to squash. And it's not the same one, but it is every rep has 837 00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:05,820 this limiting belief, or a limiting belief, or just 838 00:47:05,820 --> 00:47:08,580 something in their head that they believe about themselves 839 00:47:08,580 --> 00:47:15,660 that is not reality. If you say I'm bad at cold calling, or I'm 840 00:47:15,660 --> 00:47:21,020 not a good salesperson, or even something as innocuous as I 841 00:47:21,020 --> 00:47:23,480 shouldn't be here, or I'm the worst person on this team. 842 00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:26,000 There's a lot of limiting beliefs the reps don't know they 843 00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:28,940 have. And they will come to a coaching session with someone 844 00:47:28,940 --> 00:47:32,720 like myself, and they'll say it out loud, and I'll go, Hang on. 845 00:47:32,720 --> 00:47:35,000 What? Where did that come from? What are we talking about here? 846 00:47:35,180 --> 00:47:39,260 And my job is to pull them back into reality and go, hang on. 847 00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:42,340 You're telling me that because you missed target last month, 848 00:47:42,820 --> 00:47:46,120 and you're working really hard, but you're selling to the French 849 00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:50,740 market, and they're all gone in August, that you're a bad rep. 850 00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:54,220 And they're like, Huh? I'm like, Yeah, that's what you're telling 851 00:47:54,220 --> 00:47:58,660 me that is sort of key for me as a coach, is pulling these 852 00:47:58,660 --> 00:48:00,780 limiting beliefs and just pulling these these things that 853 00:48:00,780 --> 00:48:03,540 people just take for granted about themselves, all day, every 854 00:48:03,540 --> 00:48:05,940 day, and then all of a sudden they speak in front of someone 855 00:48:05,940 --> 00:48:09,960 like me, and I go, what? And I get to break those beliefs. 856 00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:12,240 That's that's a big part of my job. 857 00:48:12,420 --> 00:48:15,420 Mark Ackers: I see that all the time. One of the things that we 858 00:48:15,420 --> 00:48:18,900 do at my sales coach is we provide assessments that assess 859 00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:23,420 individuals and actually compares them to 2.4 million 860 00:48:23,540 --> 00:48:26,720 other sales professionals. And one of the competencies it looks 861 00:48:26,720 --> 00:48:30,560 at is self, self limiting beliefs, but actually supportive 862 00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:35,000 beliefs. And one of the things that we see is in low to mid 863 00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:38,480 performers is their supportive belief is low. And what that 864 00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:42,160 means is they let what they think be true, become true, 865 00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:46,540 right? So they think I'm a bad cold caller. They take that into 866 00:48:46,540 --> 00:48:49,420 their work, and they don't do it. They shy away from it. And I 867 00:48:49,420 --> 00:48:52,900 think this all ties back to that self limiting belief, that 868 00:48:52,900 --> 00:48:57,160 imposter syndrome, that anxiety that turns into reluctance, that 869 00:48:57,160 --> 00:49:00,420 turns into what is a real killer in sales or procrastination, not 870 00:49:00,420 --> 00:49:03,360 doing anything, focusing on other tasks. 871 00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:05,580 Unknown: Oh, man, I remember being busy for two hours a day 872 00:49:05,580 --> 00:49:07,020 filling info at the CRM 873 00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:11,100 Mark Ackers: exactly that. I'm going to end it with one final 874 00:49:11,100 --> 00:49:15,480 question, cool. What's the best piece of advice a sales leader 875 00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:16,260 has ever given you? 876 00:49:16,860 --> 00:49:17,820 Unknown: It's not about you, 877 00:49:19,140 --> 00:49:22,700 simple as that. It's not about me, but that works across every 878 00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:26,720 other area of sales. Do what I mean, had a good day. Great, not 879 00:49:26,720 --> 00:49:30,320 about you. Had a bad day. Great not about you. Someone hangs up 880 00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:33,020 on you, and you know, I've been told some awful things. I'm 881 00:49:33,020 --> 00:49:36,260 calling cold calls that have nothing to do with me. I was 882 00:49:36,260 --> 00:49:38,360 just the wrong play, wrong place, the right time. My 883 00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:41,020 messaging. Soon as I'm talking about me and what I do and how I 884 00:49:41,020 --> 00:49:44,440 work, I'm in the wrong place, because it's not about me, it's 885 00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:49,000 about them and their pains. When bad things have happened in 886 00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:51,880 sales, it's not been about me when great things have happened 887 00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:56,200 in sales, it's not been about me. This idea of it's not about 888 00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:59,500 you, really puts things into perspective. You're still in 889 00:49:59,500 --> 00:50:02,280 control. No, you're still in charge, still your 890 00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:08,460 responsibility. But when you realize that the world of sales, 891 00:50:08,580 --> 00:50:13,080 it's not about you, it's about everything and everybody else, 892 00:50:13,380 --> 00:50:16,140 you start focusing on everything and everybody else, instead of 893 00:50:16,140 --> 00:50:17,040 focusing on yourself. 894 00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:18,960 Mark Ackers: It's a great answer. The only thing I'd add 895 00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:21,620 to that, as you said, it's across sounds. I think that's 896 00:50:21,620 --> 00:50:26,720 across life. I think if you can put it's not about you at the 897 00:50:26,720 --> 00:50:29,660 front of your mind, and engage other people like the 898 00:50:29,660 --> 00:50:33,200 conversations you have, what you learn like just be interesting 899 00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:37,640 other people to be interesting. It's one of the worst habits you 900 00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:40,840 can see in someone is when you start talking and they try, 901 00:50:40,900 --> 00:50:43,000 they're trying to connect with you, but they make it about 902 00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:45,520 them, right? It's like, oh, yeah, that's happened to me. And 903 00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:48,520 all of a sudden you're hearing their story. And it comes back 904 00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:51,940 down to what we said early on, those insecurities that need to 905 00:50:51,940 --> 00:50:54,400 be like that, that little professor, where you want to 906 00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:56,740 connect with that person, and the only way, you know, do that 907 00:50:56,740 --> 00:51:00,300 is to talk about the same thing, but make it about you, because 908 00:51:00,300 --> 00:51:02,700 that's where you're comfortable. I think that is one of the 909 00:51:02,700 --> 00:51:05,580 things that you have to break in sales, and you do that by 910 00:51:05,580 --> 00:51:09,480 learning it. So I think whoever gave you that advice really knew 911 00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:12,420 what they're doing, and I'm sure stood up with shed. Think 912 00:51:12,420 --> 00:51:15,600 whoever gave you that advice really knew what they're doing, 913 00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:17,580 and I'm sure stood up with shed. Can I 914 00:51:17,580 --> 00:51:20,220 Unknown: give you a second free one? Please? Second free one. 915 00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:24,440 And this was given, I can't remember the exact context, but 916 00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:27,440 it switched my brain when it came to sort of like internal 917 00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:30,560 promotions and things like that, or just how I worked. Everyone 918 00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:32,660 will tell you, it's not about what you know. It's about who 919 00:51:32,660 --> 00:51:37,460 you know. That's incorrect. It's about who knows you. It's very 920 00:51:37,460 --> 00:51:39,980 different. It's not about who you know in your sort of 921 00:51:39,980 --> 00:51:42,460 corporate ladder or internal stuff. It's about who knows you, 922 00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:45,400 so making sure that you're in front of the right person with 923 00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:47,560 the right message at the right time, and that the internal 924 00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:50,800 conversations are being had about you, that's key. So don't, 925 00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:54,460 don't think about it as you know. It's not about what I 926 00:51:54,460 --> 00:51:56,860 know. It's about who I know. Doesn't matter who you know. 927 00:51:56,860 --> 00:51:59,020 It's about who knows you and Associates you with that 928 00:51:59,020 --> 00:52:02,340 specific thing that's going to be key for quote, brand 929 00:52:02,340 --> 00:52:05,700 building. But internal brand is what got me my my promotions in 930 00:52:05,700 --> 00:52:08,760 sales left and in Google, and what got me from Google to sales 931 00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:11,820 loft, and then what got me from sales left to going out on my 932 00:52:11,820 --> 00:52:15,480 own. So make sure that when you're focusing all this stuff, 933 00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:17,280 it's about who knows you as well, really, 934 00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:19,320 Mark Ackers: please. You added that Brian, that was, that was 935 00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:22,640 really, really interesting. Um, that does bring us to the end of 936 00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:25,700 the podcast. Even what you just said there, I can ask so many 937 00:52:25,700 --> 00:52:30,380 questions about that, but mindful of time, where can 938 00:52:30,500 --> 00:52:33,620 listeners find more about you and connect with you, what tell 939 00:52:33,620 --> 00:52:34,520 us more about what you're 940 00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:37,040 Unknown: doing today? So you're gonna look you're gonna find me 941 00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:39,860 on LinkedIn. That's the number one place to find me. I'm gonna 942 00:52:39,860 --> 00:52:44,020 ask you a request of you, though, when you find me on 943 00:52:44,020 --> 00:52:46,660 LinkedIn, if you've come for me from this podcast, or if we're 944 00:52:46,660 --> 00:52:49,420 already connected, just drop me a message on LinkedIn that says, 945 00:52:49,420 --> 00:52:51,940 you know, hey, saw you on that podcast. Loved it, hated it. 946 00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:54,400 Hated your accent, hated your background, whatever. Why are 947 00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:56,560 your face covered in spots? Those kinds of things, right? 948 00:52:56,920 --> 00:52:59,980 And the reason that I say that is not for my benefit, it's, 949 00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:04,260 it's for yours. What I say this on every webinar I do, if, let's 950 00:53:04,260 --> 00:53:06,840 say, in a year's time, you reach out to me needing help with 951 00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:10,380 something, and I scroll up and I see that we've already spoken 952 00:53:10,380 --> 00:53:12,900 briefly about the podcast that I did, and I've got really 953 00:53:12,900 --> 00:53:15,780 positive associations with this podcast, then I'll go, oh yeah, 954 00:53:15,780 --> 00:53:18,120 cool. I'll help that person, rather than the dozens of people 955 00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:20,460 who will reach out and go, Hey, Brian, can I have 10 minutes of 956 00:53:20,460 --> 00:53:23,300 your time to pick your brain about X problem? And about X 957 00:53:23,300 --> 00:53:26,120 problem? I will be more likely to help. And I would recommend 958 00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:29,180 you do this with every single person that you listen to on a 959 00:53:29,180 --> 00:53:32,180 podcast or or a webinar or a live event or anything like 960 00:53:32,180 --> 00:53:34,520 that. Just send them a quick message when you're connecting, 961 00:53:34,520 --> 00:53:37,340 saying, I saw I found you on X thing because it will benefit 962 00:53:37,340 --> 00:53:39,980 you and it benefits us as well, because people we love to know 963 00:53:39,980 --> 00:53:41,980 where, where and how people come from, come to us. You.