WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.049 --> 00:00:02.120 Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World. 00:00:02.150 --> 00:00:03.830 I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson. 00:00:03.943 --> 00:00:07.033 New York Times bestselling author of the Horse Boy. 00:00:07.038 --> 00:00:11.027 Founder of New Trails Learning Systems and long ride home.com. 00:00:11.027 --> 00:00:16.644 You can find details of all our programs and shows on Rupert isaacson.com. 00:00:16.694 --> 00:00:18.614 Here on Equine Assisted World. 00:00:18.614 --> 00:00:23.744 We look at the cutting edge and the best practices currently being developed and, 00:00:23.794 --> 00:00:27.604 established in the equine assisted field. 00:00:27.634 --> 00:00:32.884 This can be psychological, this can be neuropsych, this can be 00:00:33.034 --> 00:00:38.284 physical, this can be all of the conditions that human beings have. 00:00:38.794 --> 00:00:43.204 These lovely equines, these beautiful horses that we work with, help us with. 00:00:43.301 --> 00:00:47.201 Thank you for being part of the adventure and we hope you enjoy today's show 00:00:47.320 --> 00:00:52.860 welcome back to Equine Assisted World, where we talk to people, who are in 00:00:52.860 --> 00:00:59.380 the world of therapy therapeutic, stuff that is just pl flat out good for you. 00:00:59.760 --> 00:01:04.200 working with horses in a way for the body, for the mind, for the soul. 00:01:05.100 --> 00:01:06.630 what's the cutting edge of this? 00:01:06.630 --> 00:01:12.230 It's, it's a rapidly developing field, and the point of this, podcast is 00:01:12.230 --> 00:01:17.810 to make people aware of some of the people who are out there really at the 00:01:17.815 --> 00:01:21.630 cutting edge, doing amazing work with this on the neuroscience end, on the 00:01:21.635 --> 00:01:25.860 practical end, on the horse welfare end, or putting it all together. 00:01:26.490 --> 00:01:30.360 So I have today somebody absolutely fabulous. 00:01:30.570 --> 00:01:32.670 you can always rely on me to find people who are absolutely 00:01:32.675 --> 00:01:33.990 fabulous, and this is one of them. 00:01:34.200 --> 00:01:36.150 She's called Terry Brosnan. 00:01:36.930 --> 00:01:41.520 If you don't know who Terry Brosnan is, you should, Terry Brosnan is 00:01:41.520 --> 00:01:49.320 in Dublin, and she runs the, equine program at the Child Vision, school, 00:01:49.680 --> 00:01:51.330 which is in the middle of Dublin. 00:01:51.360 --> 00:01:54.120 I don't mean on the edge of Dublin with some fields, I mean in the 00:01:54.210 --> 00:01:58.590 middle of Dublin with horses starving kids from, poor backgrounds. 00:01:59.310 --> 00:02:04.560 And, it's a school for the visually impaired, which has a really, really, 00:02:04.590 --> 00:02:06.390 really large collegiate intake. 00:02:06.855 --> 00:02:11.505 But it's also, a school that has large amounts of people with autism, other 00:02:11.505 --> 00:02:15.615 neuropsychiatric related, conditions and physical conditions, some of them quite 00:02:15.615 --> 00:02:18.855 severe and visually impaired altogether. 00:02:18.855 --> 00:02:26.885 It's a really, it's tough job, , in a tough place, and Terry makes it work. 00:02:27.395 --> 00:02:29.045 but Terry doesn't just do that. 00:02:30.185 --> 00:02:36.755 Terry has been somewhat of a newcomer to the equine assisted world, 00:02:37.175 --> 00:02:39.035 meaning within the last decade. 00:02:39.995 --> 00:02:43.235 And one of the things which she identified, which I thought was very 00:02:43.240 --> 00:02:48.575 interesting, was that there was a lot of factionalism and a lot of 00:02:48.575 --> 00:02:54.275 division between the different areas of equine assisted stuff, whether it 00:02:54.305 --> 00:03:01.595 was Path International or R d a or Hippotherapy or I gala or Horse Boy or 00:03:01.595 --> 00:03:03.695 Dead, all of which are great things. 00:03:04.805 --> 00:03:06.785 But they were all existing very much separate from each other. 00:03:07.085 --> 00:03:10.685 And people, having an idea that somehow they were in competition with each 00:03:10.685 --> 00:03:14.885 other or, you should do one but not the other, which of course is not true. 00:03:15.365 --> 00:03:17.195 all the best practices combined. 00:03:17.735 --> 00:03:22.715 So, Terry really saw this problem and she's one of the few people I've run 00:03:22.715 --> 00:03:28.085 across who were proactive about it, and I was lucky enough to be sitting in a, in a. 00:03:28.955 --> 00:03:35.915 Meeting about three years ago in Dublin, where an idea came up to create, an 00:03:35.915 --> 00:03:40.475 organization called Equine Assisted Ireland, a national association 00:03:40.480 --> 00:03:44.225 that would put together all these modalities, all these paradigms, 00:03:44.825 --> 00:03:48.605 and, look for the best and look, look for the best practices within them. 00:03:50.195 --> 00:03:54.965 This then went on to something else rather extraordinary. 00:03:55.265 --> 00:03:57.365 And this is what I'm gonna ask Terry about. 00:03:57.365 --> 00:03:59.105 So Terry, just introduce her. 00:03:59.110 --> 00:03:59.735 Who are you? 00:03:59.735 --> 00:04:00.335 What do you do? 00:04:01.145 --> 00:04:01.595 Why are you here? 00:04:02.435 --> 00:04:03.455 Terri Brosnan: I'm Terry Brosnan. 00:04:03.515 --> 00:04:08.255 I have grown up around horses and fascinated by the way that we 00:04:08.255 --> 00:04:10.145 interact with them all of my life. 00:04:10.535 --> 00:04:14.855 I got the opportunity, just over seven years ago to work 00:04:14.860 --> 00:04:17.670 in, a therapeutic setting. 00:04:18.240 --> 00:04:21.990 and to take it on and make it work cuz it was sitting there. 00:04:21.990 --> 00:04:23.220 It wasn't quite working. 00:04:23.970 --> 00:04:29.520 and they didn't know what was, why this couldn't work in a situation 00:04:29.520 --> 00:04:33.360 that had been set up specifically for it and it still wasn't working. 00:04:33.870 --> 00:04:38.280 and so I came in and, one of the big problems that I found was that 00:04:38.280 --> 00:04:43.320 there was a lack of communication between all of these different groups 00:04:43.590 --> 00:04:48.780 that were setting themselves up within the equine assisted areas. 00:04:49.260 --> 00:04:54.540 There was a lot of what we would call here in Ireland, snobbery, and just difference 00:04:54.540 --> 00:05:00.300 between groups, and a feeling that certain groups were better or less than others. 00:05:00.360 --> 00:05:03.150 from my understanding of it, because I was coming in from the 00:05:03.150 --> 00:05:07.260 outside, I could kind of see that all of these groups were fantastic. 00:05:07.290 --> 00:05:11.460 All of them offered really good connections with the people 00:05:11.460 --> 00:05:12.690 that they were working with. 00:05:12.930 --> 00:05:18.780 They were all coming from a really good place, and all of them wanted to learn 00:05:18.780 --> 00:05:24.120 more than they currently knew, and wanted this practice to move forward. 00:05:24.930 --> 00:05:29.370 so I think that when I, when I see common goals, I'm, I'm somebody who kind of goes, 00:05:29.370 --> 00:05:33.270 oh, well, let's group all these people together and see, see where this can go, 00:05:33.270 --> 00:05:35.010 because we're always better together. 00:05:35.010 --> 00:05:38.820 We're, you know, human beings, we're better in a tribe, you know, we're 00:05:38.820 --> 00:05:43.110 always better when we have support, and we're not trying to go it alone. 00:05:43.620 --> 00:05:48.360 and so I thought, right, if I can get all these people in a room and we can 00:05:48.365 --> 00:05:53.280 say, actually, look, we have so much to offer each other, we can go send so many 00:05:53.280 --> 00:05:55.350 more places together than we can apart. 00:05:55.930 --> 00:05:58.090 , and that was where the idea was born out of. 00:05:58.540 --> 00:06:03.220 , we have a great relationship with I Gala because, you know, their 00:06:03.220 --> 00:06:06.370 practices are so high standard here. 00:06:06.370 --> 00:06:09.460 Their, their, their people are really well trained and, and 00:06:09.465 --> 00:06:11.690 fantastic, , at what they do. 00:06:12.470 --> 00:06:16.660 And when we looked at the R D A I, which it is in Ireland, which is the 00:06:16.660 --> 00:06:20.980 equivalent of PATH or the R D A in the uk, these guys had been working 00:06:20.980 --> 00:06:25.610 at this since, in Ireland, I think since the seventies and the eighties. 00:06:26.060 --> 00:06:27.890 all with really good backgrounds. 00:06:27.890 --> 00:06:31.410 They, a lot of these women coming from horsey backgrounds, knowing 00:06:31.410 --> 00:06:35.680 their, their good Irish horses, knowing all these attributes, and 00:06:35.740 --> 00:06:41.680 desperate for more information and not really having a way of connecting 00:06:41.680 --> 00:06:46.240 in with the wider world and wider developments and EQU assisted activities. 00:06:46.840 --> 00:06:51.490 And, and so bringing everybody together was a way of trying to, establish 00:06:51.490 --> 00:06:57.100 connections to the likes of Hetty I, Ohio, the larger organizations where research 00:06:57.100 --> 00:07:01.535 was being done where, like Horse Boy where people could actually just say, 00:07:01.565 --> 00:07:06.185 oh yeah, I can see how I can apply this to my work and improve what I'm doing. 00:07:06.695 --> 00:07:08.255 So that was how we started that. 00:07:09.815 --> 00:07:12.425 Rupert Isaacson: So, just for the listeners who aren't familiar with 00:07:12.425 --> 00:07:17.045 Heti and I Ohio, can you just tell us a little bit about what they're, 00:07:17.885 --> 00:07:19.505 Terri Brosnan: so I'll start with I Ohio, cause they're a 00:07:19.510 --> 00:07:21.185 really interesting organization. 00:07:21.455 --> 00:07:25.805 They're the International Association of Human Animal Interaction Organizations. 00:07:26.285 --> 00:07:31.715 So they look after things like, you know, human animal interactions with dogs, cats, 00:07:31.745 --> 00:07:34.035 farm animals, horses, elephants, whale. 00:07:34.710 --> 00:07:35.280 Everything. 00:07:35.460 --> 00:07:36.000 Everything. 00:07:36.000 --> 00:07:36.060 Yeah. 00:07:36.450 --> 00:07:40.710 And they're interested in studying how humans and animals interact with each 00:07:40.710 --> 00:07:47.130 other, and they very involved in research and looking at this across the globe. 00:07:47.760 --> 00:07:52.330 Then, I suppose Hetty is the horses in Education and Therapy International, 00:07:52.630 --> 00:07:54.220 and they would be a member of Ohio. 00:07:54.490 --> 00:07:54.780 Okay. 00:07:55.360 --> 00:07:59.710 They would be one of the members of Iowa, Ohio, but they specialize in horses alone. 00:08:00.470 --> 00:08:06.140 And so they would have originally been made up of the rda, the Riding for the 00:08:06.140 --> 00:08:09.170 Disabled Association, path International. 00:08:09.570 --> 00:08:12.300 those would've been the original founding groups of Hetty. 00:08:12.790 --> 00:08:16.990 and it has evolved now, and it includes Al in various countries. 00:08:17.200 --> 00:08:24.040 It includes, horse boy practitioners, it includes therapeutic riding coaches, OTs, 00:08:24.040 --> 00:08:29.650 physios, everybody who's coming into this field, can become a member of if Hetty. 00:08:30.110 --> 00:08:35.330 , and they're looking at trying to ensure great welfare for their horses, welfare 00:08:35.335 --> 00:08:41.570 for clients and, and a kind of standard, professional standard across the board. 00:08:42.320 --> 00:08:45.650 Rupert Isaacson: And so I, I, I was there with you. 00:08:45.800 --> 00:08:47.660 That's kind of when I more or less first met you. 00:08:48.020 --> 00:08:48.080 Yeah. 00:08:48.110 --> 00:08:53.810 and we were, you were, putting forward, an island based national association, 00:08:53.840 --> 00:08:55.670 which has since gained ground. 00:08:56.075 --> 00:08:59.975 Called Equine Assisted Ireland, bringing all of these diverse groups together, 00:09:00.395 --> 00:09:01.415 which I thought was a brilliant idea. 00:09:01.925 --> 00:09:08.645 and now several years on, I now see that you're doing something else on a 00:09:08.650 --> 00:09:11.345 national level, which I find intriguing. 00:09:11.945 --> 00:09:17.545 so what, for the listeners, what, what Terry's done is she, so 00:09:17.645 --> 00:09:21.815 she, she has, well, tell us, you involved Horse Sport Ireland, right? 00:09:22.265 --> 00:09:22.715 Yes. 00:09:22.865 --> 00:09:27.125 She managed to get the sport horse organization, which would be the 00:09:27.125 --> 00:09:35.105 equivalent of the US Equestrian Federation or the British Horse Society to back 00:09:35.345 --> 00:09:39.365 a really interesting project that, so what have you managed to do, Terry? 00:09:40.595 --> 00:09:44.765 Terri Brosnan: So, I think, you know, we recognize the need for 00:09:44.770 --> 00:09:49.055 therapeutic riding across every society that we've come across. 00:09:49.925 --> 00:09:53.015 and what's happening is people are turning up on riding school 00:09:53.015 --> 00:09:57.995 doors and going, knocking there and saying, hi, can you see my child? 00:09:58.895 --> 00:10:02.945 and the riding instructors that are there have all this horse knowledge. 00:10:03.215 --> 00:10:05.195 They've learned how to give a flat work lesson. 00:10:05.195 --> 00:10:10.895 They've learned how to give a lunch lesson, lead rain, jumping, all of this. 00:10:10.900 --> 00:10:13.595 But they've never learned how to give a therapeutic session. 00:10:15.065 --> 00:10:15.485 and. 00:10:15.860 --> 00:10:19.280 They didn't have that skill, that toolbox, that skill group. 00:10:19.880 --> 00:10:24.620 and so horse Sport Ireland, came to us and said, look, we have this 00:10:24.625 --> 00:10:26.810 demand, we have this enormous demand. 00:10:27.890 --> 00:10:29.570 How are we going to fill it? 00:10:29.575 --> 00:10:31.340 How, how can, what can we do? 00:10:31.970 --> 00:10:37.250 How can we allow the people that are there who have all of this horse knowledge 00:10:37.520 --> 00:10:43.580 to expand it and have a toolbox to work with children with, autism, sensory 00:10:43.580 --> 00:10:48.105 processing issues, disabilities, all sorts of, in a regular riding school 00:10:48.105 --> 00:10:50.025 environment, in a regular riding school. 00:10:50.175 --> 00:10:50.385 Right? 00:10:50.385 --> 00:10:50.475 And 00:10:50.475 --> 00:10:52.275 Rupert Isaacson: I guess this would also include people with eating 00:10:52.275 --> 00:10:56.865 disorders or anxiety or D H D or just the stuff that shows up, right? 00:10:57.315 --> 00:10:58.605 Terri Brosnan: Everything across the board. 00:10:58.725 --> 00:11:02.835 So, I mean, they're, these people are the type of people who are, are 00:11:02.835 --> 00:11:06.435 knocking on the doors of writing centers all over Ireland anyway. 00:11:06.975 --> 00:11:10.785 and there was a huge demand, but no qualified staff. 00:11:11.505 --> 00:11:16.125 and so horse board Allen said, look, we need to provide qualified people here. 00:11:16.125 --> 00:11:17.655 How do, how are we gonna do it? 00:11:18.225 --> 00:11:22.005 And they came to, our team and, where I work in television, they said, look, you 00:11:22.005 --> 00:11:25.305 guys all started as riding instructors. 00:11:25.305 --> 00:11:31.215 You guys all came from a horse background system is working and 00:11:31.515 --> 00:11:33.045 you're providing this amazing service. 00:11:33.045 --> 00:11:34.905 So how can we, how can we become you? 00:11:34.965 --> 00:11:39.885 How, how can we make ourselves, how can we provide this information to. 00:11:40.530 --> 00:11:44.370 All of, the, people around, excuse me, there's a ghost in the background here. 00:11:46.200 --> 00:11:47.830 Large dogs, but a four-legged one. 00:11:47.830 --> 00:11:48.110 Yeah. 00:11:48.390 --> 00:11:49.110 A four-legged one. 00:11:49.140 --> 00:11:49.470 Yes. 00:11:50.010 --> 00:11:55.740 So, we proposed that we would sit down, examine our practices and 00:11:55.740 --> 00:12:01.140 see what it was that makes ridings instructors really good at this work. 00:12:02.010 --> 00:12:03.960 And I think we're uniquely qualified. 00:12:03.960 --> 00:12:08.670 Actually, horsey people are uniquely qualified because our day-to-day 00:12:09.390 --> 00:12:14.430 colleague is a large non-verbal colleague. 00:12:14.435 --> 00:12:18.810 We work with non-verbal people, inver commas, horses, 00:12:19.140 --> 00:12:20.115 Rupert Isaacson: with a lot of anxiety. 00:12:20.355 --> 00:12:21.755 A horse with a prey animal, 00:12:22.075 --> 00:12:22.355 Terri Brosnan: absolutely. 00:12:22.525 --> 00:12:24.385 With high cortisol levels. 00:12:25.315 --> 00:12:28.945 So, I mean, these are our, these are our, best friends and our, 00:12:28.945 --> 00:12:30.355 and our colleagues every day. 00:12:30.360 --> 00:12:33.145 And so we are used to reading body language. 00:12:33.385 --> 00:12:40.495 We're used to not having to communicate with words, and we're used to doing risk 00:12:40.495 --> 00:12:43.705 assessments on a very, very quick basis. 00:12:43.825 --> 00:12:49.825 so we, we have lots of skills within our armor that we can add to, to, 00:12:49.825 --> 00:12:56.455 allow people to really provide good quality researched, Sessions that 00:12:56.455 --> 00:12:59.185 will meet goals for people, okay. 00:12:59.185 --> 00:13:03.515 Meet goals for the children and adults that they're seeing, and improve lives. 00:13:03.515 --> 00:13:04.535 So that was what we did. 00:13:04.535 --> 00:13:07.385 We put together a course, we wrote it over lockdown. 00:13:08.065 --> 00:13:11.715 and then we, they, they, they came to us and, and said, 00:13:11.715 --> 00:13:13.515 look, we'll fund it with you. 00:13:13.515 --> 00:13:16.515 If you apply for funding with us, we'll, we'll go for it. 00:13:16.605 --> 00:13:17.715 We applied for funding. 00:13:17.745 --> 00:13:18.945 We were successful. 00:13:19.455 --> 00:13:25.925 And that financed the setting up writing and, rolling out of this course. 00:13:26.405 --> 00:13:34.835 So I, last year, between actually November, 2021 and November, 2022, 00:13:35.445 --> 00:13:42.495 we had had about 50 people on our course, but qualified about 35 of them. 00:13:42.495 --> 00:13:47.175 They all had the right qualifications to get certified within the process. 00:13:47.775 --> 00:13:50.175 Rupert Isaacson: So when you say the right qualifications, this, this means that 00:13:50.175 --> 00:13:54.495 these were people, for example, who'd already done their B H S A I, that would 00:13:54.495 --> 00:13:58.545 be the British Horse Society assisted instructor basic level thing, that they 00:13:58.550 --> 00:13:59.955 had to at least have something like that, 00:13:59.985 --> 00:14:01.095 Terri Brosnan: or Absolutely. 00:14:01.100 --> 00:14:04.335 They had to have some coaching ch or teaching qualification. 00:14:04.725 --> 00:14:07.515 They had to have a good horse background. 00:14:08.015 --> 00:14:13.655 and they also needed, because of the, the, the setup with the Horse, 00:14:13.655 --> 00:14:16.505 port Island and the Association of Irish Riding establishments. 00:14:16.850 --> 00:14:21.740 Who really pushed for this to go through, they had to be a member 00:14:21.740 --> 00:14:26.820 of the Association of Irish Riding Establishments or be, an employee of a 00:14:26.825 --> 00:14:28.680 member of the Association of Irish Riding 00:14:28.680 --> 00:14:29.190 Rupert Isaacson: establishment. 00:14:29.195 --> 00:14:30.690 So there's something here that's blowing my mind. 00:14:30.760 --> 00:14:37.750 I'm used to the large horse associations, being closed priesthoods 00:14:38.290 --> 00:14:44.500 that perhaps, act like gatekeepers and this can, like any bureaucratic 00:14:44.500 --> 00:14:47.080 organization, make change a slow thing. 00:14:47.920 --> 00:14:53.890 You said that horse Sport Island came to you, you didn't go to them. 00:14:55.090 --> 00:14:55.150 No. 00:14:55.150 --> 00:14:55.510 That's unheard of. 00:14:56.380 --> 00:14:57.160 How did this happen? 00:14:58.690 --> 00:15:02.585 Terri Brosnan: well, I think they had, I, I knew a lot of people who were working 00:15:02.590 --> 00:15:04.925 in the industry have done all of my life. 00:15:05.585 --> 00:15:11.795 and they were interested in, when I started into therapeutic writing, 00:15:11.795 --> 00:15:14.915 they were interested because they know the way my mind works. 00:15:14.975 --> 00:15:16.205 I need to have facts. 00:15:16.565 --> 00:15:21.545 I, I'm very logical, I like things to, to progress in an order. 00:15:22.265 --> 00:15:27.125 and they know that for me, the horse knowledge is where I want to come from. 00:15:27.740 --> 00:15:29.120 I always wanna learn more. 00:15:29.640 --> 00:15:33.480 I want to interact with my horses in the best way that I can. 00:15:34.200 --> 00:15:37.530 and I'm not afraid to say there's lots of things I don't know, and 00:15:37.530 --> 00:15:40.500 I'm always willing to learn if there's a better way to do something. 00:15:41.250 --> 00:15:43.290 and so we started this. 00:15:43.290 --> 00:15:47.910 I got a lot of help from people within the organization that I work from. 00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:49.590 I have an amazing team. 00:15:50.190 --> 00:15:51.840 Everybody came with ideas. 00:15:52.080 --> 00:15:57.120 We were lucky enough to be introduced to you, Rupert, and we, we absorb, 00:15:57.150 --> 00:16:01.830 we have a team that absorbs ideas and we will find the best principles and 00:16:01.830 --> 00:16:03.510 we'll take them and run with them. 00:16:03.870 --> 00:16:04.830 I'm a magpie. 00:16:04.830 --> 00:16:09.360 I will take anybody else's idea if I think it's good enough, and I will run with it. 00:16:09.840 --> 00:16:11.610 And that's really what happened. 00:16:11.610 --> 00:16:16.950 We learned a lot very quickly from our OTs, our physios from the 00:16:16.950 --> 00:16:22.530 experts in orientation and mobility, disability experts learned a lot 00:16:22.590 --> 00:16:27.330 going back to basics of horsemanship and going, okay, so what can we do? 00:16:27.360 --> 00:16:29.310 How do we marry this all together? 00:16:29.760 --> 00:16:33.420 The final linchpin for me was the horse boy experience. 00:16:33.810 --> 00:16:37.890 So that marries the, the, the two aspects really well together. 00:16:38.130 --> 00:16:43.020 And it showed me the place of the horse at the center of the work that I'm 00:16:43.020 --> 00:16:45.300 doing, which really sat well with me. 00:16:46.140 --> 00:16:49.650 and so when I'm doing something like that and I'm all enthusiastic, 00:16:49.650 --> 00:16:52.080 I'll, I'm very evangelistic. 00:16:52.350 --> 00:16:54.330 I'm, I'm talking to everybody about it. 00:16:54.810 --> 00:16:59.155 so I, you know, I was, I was letting, people that I knew in the industry 00:16:59.155 --> 00:17:02.935 know about this, the work that I was doing, and they said, this sounds 00:17:03.565 --> 00:17:09.565 just like really good horsemanship and that's what we want to promote. 00:17:10.315 --> 00:17:14.185 and you're, you're really preserving your horses at the center of the 00:17:14.185 --> 00:17:18.055 work and you're doing good work with the clients that you're seeing. 00:17:18.055 --> 00:17:20.005 So that's what we are interested in. 00:17:20.005 --> 00:17:23.365 We're interested in coming from a horse perspective. 00:17:24.055 --> 00:17:32.575 I think the difficulty is for the, the governing horse bodies around the world 00:17:34.375 --> 00:17:42.595 is that the horse isn't always the center of therapeutic riding or therapeutic or 00:17:42.895 --> 00:17:45.505 equine-assisted activities, whatever the 00:17:45.510 --> 00:17:49.285 Rupert Isaacson: terminology of sport riding as well, I mean, or, or of sport 00:17:49.285 --> 00:17:49.705 Terri Brosnan: riding. 00:17:49.710 --> 00:17:50.335 Exactly. 00:17:51.055 --> 00:17:53.995 Rupert Isaacson: Horse is often neglected as even, yes. 00:17:54.235 --> 00:17:54.505 Yeah. 00:17:55.705 --> 00:17:59.215 Terri Brosnan: So, so they're really are starting to move towards a 00:17:59.215 --> 00:18:02.605 system where the horse is the center. 00:18:03.265 --> 00:18:03.595 Okay. 00:18:03.685 --> 00:18:06.415 And everything else needs to come from that. 00:18:07.285 --> 00:18:10.645 The, you know, because if we're looking at having. 00:18:12.010 --> 00:18:17.230 Other professions wanting to join us in the arena, they need 00:18:17.230 --> 00:18:18.850 to have a horse person there. 00:18:19.300 --> 00:18:23.020 I think the analogy I like to use is, you know, when you're a healthcare 00:18:23.020 --> 00:18:26.650 professional and you're working with parents, they are the expert on their 00:18:26.650 --> 00:18:30.670 child and they will tell you all of this amazing information about their 00:18:30.670 --> 00:18:36.260 child and they know more about their children's needs than anybody else. 00:18:36.520 --> 00:18:37.420 And that's equivalent. 00:18:38.530 --> 00:18:41.860 You know, there doesn't make them a professional, a healthcare professional, 00:18:42.070 --> 00:18:46.450 because if they had seen a thousand children at that level, that makes them a 00:18:46.450 --> 00:18:48.340 horse care pro or healthcare professional. 00:18:48.730 --> 00:18:50.410 And I would feel the same about horses. 00:18:50.680 --> 00:18:55.330 Somebody who owns one horse and knows it well may be an expert in that horse, but 00:18:55.335 --> 00:18:57.100 it doesn't make them a horse professional. 00:18:57.460 --> 00:18:57.490 Mm. 00:18:57.610 --> 00:19:02.110 But when you've had hundreds of horses through your hands and working with 00:19:02.110 --> 00:19:06.760 them on an ongoing basis, that makes you a horse professional, hopefully 00:19:06.760 --> 00:19:09.700 you're a horse professional who puts the horse at the center of your work. 00:19:10.330 --> 00:19:14.410 and I think we need to be really, enthused that horse. 00:19:14.410 --> 00:19:17.560 People want to get involved in this because they need to protect the horse 00:19:17.680 --> 00:19:19.240 and keep it at the center of this work. 00:19:19.480 --> 00:19:19.810 I want 00:19:19.810 --> 00:19:25.000 Rupert Isaacson: to come in a few minutes to how exactly you are putting the horse 00:19:25.000 --> 00:19:30.670 first, and what are you doing for the horse body, mind, spirit wellbeing as 00:19:30.670 --> 00:19:32.050 part of this work and policy force. 00:19:32.290 --> 00:19:34.960 But before I go there, what's been the response? 00:19:35.500 --> 00:19:39.640 From the equine, these young equine professionals that you're reaching out to. 00:19:39.880 --> 00:19:42.370 Cause you're basically saying to them, if, if I understand it correctly, 00:19:42.610 --> 00:19:44.290 look, there's a career path here. 00:19:44.860 --> 00:19:49.510 whether you do actual therapeutic modalities or whether you want to 00:19:49.510 --> 00:19:53.490 just be, , a writing instructor, but knowing that you're gonna get 00:19:53.700 --> 00:19:58.830 these people coming in now more and more with diagnosed conditions or 00:19:58.830 --> 00:20:02.760 maybe undiagnosed conditions, but still needing a more sensitive hand. 00:20:03.240 --> 00:20:05.160 what's been the response from these people? 00:20:05.310 --> 00:20:07.770 Because horse people are famously bossy and like, well, they 00:20:07.770 --> 00:20:09.840 should just get up with it and, you know, pull their socks up. 00:20:09.900 --> 00:20:15.150 And so how, how have you managed to, to get through that bossy horsiness that 00:20:15.420 --> 00:20:17.010 so many of us were brought up with? 00:20:18.660 --> 00:20:20.910 Terri Brosnan: I, I, there are two aspects to this. 00:20:20.915 --> 00:20:25.370 I think the overwhelming response has been relief, interesting from people. 00:20:25.800 --> 00:20:26.370 Interesting. 00:20:26.730 --> 00:20:32.040 They have been looking for a way to deal with these clients that they're seeing. 00:20:32.430 --> 00:20:37.380 Either they know and they're being told these clients have autism or A 00:20:37.380 --> 00:20:42.240 D H D or they're not told and they're still having to try and put them 00:20:42.240 --> 00:20:47.850 on a horse and teach them riding without any skillset or toolkit. 00:20:48.810 --> 00:20:56.970 so on that basis, there was overall relief and that was added to by the idea that. 00:20:57.705 --> 00:21:02.385 Yes, you already have a huge number of the skills that are required. 00:21:02.685 --> 00:21:05.115 We're not gonna teach you to suck eggs. 00:21:05.625 --> 00:21:08.085 You know, we're not going to reinvent the wheel here. 00:21:08.445 --> 00:21:14.475 All of the skills that you have around horses are all valid, and this is 00:21:14.480 --> 00:21:18.705 how you utilize them better to put the horse at the center of your work. 00:21:19.575 --> 00:21:23.385 and I think it's really important for, particularly in Ireland, because 00:21:23.385 --> 00:21:26.535 we're the land of the horse and nobody wants to be talked down to here. 00:21:26.535 --> 00:21:30.435 We're all very prickly about, you know, we know what we're doing. 00:21:30.855 --> 00:21:36.255 so it, it leads to that idea of, you know, if you're gentle with people 00:21:36.315 --> 00:21:41.385 and assume that they're coming from a place of knowledge, they can always 00:21:41.385 --> 00:21:46.125 ask if they, if they want to fill in any gaps, and we leave that space open. 00:21:46.995 --> 00:21:50.205 But we're saying to them, okay guys, this is stuff you have. 00:21:50.835 --> 00:21:53.355 How do you want to evolve it? 00:21:54.165 --> 00:21:57.075 You know, we're gonna give you everything you need. 00:21:57.855 --> 00:21:59.085 What are you looking for? 00:21:59.445 --> 00:22:04.215 So we're asking them to feed back into it, and that takes away the bossiness. 00:22:04.215 --> 00:22:08.025 We all need to be a little bit more curious, a little bit more vulnerable, 00:22:08.295 --> 00:22:12.315 a little less, you know, on edge when we, when we meet with other 00:22:12.315 --> 00:22:16.695 professionals, who might, it might seem quite threatening, you know, here's 00:22:16.695 --> 00:22:20.505 somebody going to tell you how to run your life or how to run your horses. 00:22:20.775 --> 00:22:22.365 And that's not what we're about at all. 00:22:22.365 --> 00:22:22.935 We're about. 00:22:23.745 --> 00:22:25.455 Saying, look, we were curious. 00:22:25.455 --> 00:22:30.135 We, we found this great system and we found other great systems and 00:22:30.135 --> 00:22:31.935 we've implemented them all together. 00:22:32.475 --> 00:22:36.340 or as much of the, the best practice with a human and the best practice 00:22:36.345 --> 00:22:39.910 with a horse that we could find for various different reasons. 00:22:39.910 --> 00:22:44.800 I mean, our specialty is visual impairment and it's a very unique slot. 00:22:45.160 --> 00:22:46.900 And we found all the experts in that. 00:22:46.900 --> 00:22:48.850 And we, we look at that very particularly. 00:22:49.510 --> 00:22:53.200 but we have lots to learn from our students as well. 00:22:53.680 --> 00:22:57.430 And we're not above saying to them, look, what is your experience? 00:22:57.430 --> 00:22:58.570 Tell us your experience. 00:22:58.930 --> 00:23:01.930 Bring your personality into the situation. 00:23:02.410 --> 00:23:02.800 Trust the 00:23:02.800 --> 00:23:03.610 Rupert Isaacson: experts, basically. 00:23:03.610 --> 00:23:04.750 The experts being absolutely, yeah. 00:23:04.755 --> 00:23:05.500 With the condition. 00:23:05.590 --> 00:23:05.890 Yeah. 00:23:05.980 --> 00:23:07.780 Yeah, that makes perfect sense. 00:23:08.260 --> 00:23:11.830 So, I'm gonna ask you actually a bit in a mi in a moment about the 00:23:11.830 --> 00:23:14.590 specifics of working with people with visual impairments, and particularly 00:23:14.595 --> 00:23:19.210 when there's visual impairments are combined with say, autism or 00:23:19.210 --> 00:23:21.550 say, a serious physical condition. 00:23:22.270 --> 00:23:24.610 but let's talk about this horse welfare aspect. 00:23:25.030 --> 00:23:29.975 so if you were saying that the, horse sport island, and then professionals 00:23:29.975 --> 00:23:38.105 within the horse industry there were reacting well to what you were including 00:23:38.105 --> 00:23:42.125 in this course, for professionals, not just about how you work with people with. 00:23:42.380 --> 00:23:46.700 Special needs of one kind or another, but also on how do you prioritize 00:23:46.700 --> 00:23:49.070 the welfare of the horse in this? 00:23:49.340 --> 00:23:51.800 Can you tell us a bit about how you do prioritize the 00:23:51.800 --> 00:23:52.820 welfare of the horse in this? 00:23:53.390 --> 00:23:55.820 Cause you, you're in a unique position there in the middle of the city. 00:23:56.510 --> 00:23:56.780 Terri Brosnan: Yeah. 00:23:56.785 --> 00:24:00.350 So it there, there's a couple of interesting aspects to this. 00:24:00.560 --> 00:24:05.000 Yes, we are in the city center, so that means that we actually 00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:07.970 don't have access to daily grazing. 00:24:08.750 --> 00:24:14.330 We don't have access to some of the things that in an ideal world, we would 00:24:14.330 --> 00:24:17.210 want for our horses on a day-to-day 00:24:17.210 --> 00:24:17.630 Rupert Isaacson: basis. 00:24:17.630 --> 00:24:18.880 Well, that many people take for granted. 00:24:19.160 --> 00:24:20.570 Terri Brosnan: Yeah, absolutely. 00:24:20.570 --> 00:24:25.820 Horses and humans live have and will always live hand and gel for the last 00:24:26.030 --> 00:24:27.770 God knows how many thousand of years. 00:24:27.770 --> 00:24:33.140 So we've found a way of prioritizing the most important things, 00:24:33.140 --> 00:24:37.520 which are our horses, welfare and happiness on a daily basis. 00:24:38.030 --> 00:24:40.100 why, why would I be interested in this? 00:24:40.700 --> 00:24:46.850 Well, originally when I, went and, and talked to the guys in Ohio, I, 00:24:48.110 --> 00:24:51.260 I was talking to them from a horse perspective and a lot of their. 00:24:51.860 --> 00:24:55.640 Practitioners were coming from psychological perspectives and working 00:24:55.640 --> 00:24:59.300 with horses, but, but not necessarily always from a horse background. 00:24:59.570 --> 00:25:02.810 And they were really interested to work with people who were just 00:25:02.810 --> 00:25:04.250 coming from an equine background. 00:25:04.860 --> 00:25:09.150 And so one of the things that I got involved in early on was a, an 00:25:09.150 --> 00:25:13.230 equine welfare task force, or an equine task force, not just welfare. 00:25:13.380 --> 00:25:18.390 One of the modules we worked on was welfare and training of the 00:25:18.390 --> 00:25:22.410 horse and best practices within equine assisted activities. 00:25:22.800 --> 00:25:26.880 It was a group from all over the world, and everybody was coming at 00:25:26.880 --> 00:25:30.930 it from their own unique perspective. 00:25:31.170 --> 00:25:33.720 You know, people from South Africa, from Australia, from 00:25:34.110 --> 00:25:36.990 France, Germany, the states. 00:25:37.290 --> 00:25:42.840 And everybody's situation was different, but the core tenants of 00:25:43.050 --> 00:25:44.820 best welfare practice were the same. 00:25:45.690 --> 00:25:49.110 and so that was an interesting group to work with. 00:25:49.110 --> 00:25:53.190 And it, it, it, it fed into a lot of what I knew, what I'd learned, 00:25:53.430 --> 00:25:54.960 what I was going to go on and learn. 00:25:55.650 --> 00:25:59.760 and I'd always been interested in, Andrew McLean and Paul McGreevy's 00:25:59.760 --> 00:26:02.400 work on equitation science. 00:26:03.390 --> 00:26:05.430 I'd always been interested in how horses learn. 00:26:06.630 --> 00:26:10.760 And then having worked with you guys in Horse Boy , it's applying that learning. 00:26:11.765 --> 00:26:17.075 To keeping horses interested, keeping them happy, not letting them go 00:26:17.075 --> 00:26:19.445 still, cuz in Ireland, I don't know. 00:26:20.285 --> 00:26:22.025 I, I can only speak from my own perspective. 00:26:22.025 --> 00:26:25.715 We have a situation where we break horses around four years of age. 00:26:25.985 --> 00:26:29.855 We teach them a lot between four and six, maybe seven years of age. 00:26:30.635 --> 00:26:35.885 And then we just stop, we stop their education. 00:26:36.185 --> 00:26:36.275 Mm-hmm. 00:26:36.515 --> 00:26:41.165 Unless they're very, in a very tiny number of elite horses 00:26:41.165 --> 00:26:46.295 that are doing, progressing with dressage or venting, we stop. 00:26:46.645 --> 00:26:50.945 And it's just so devastating for horses. 00:26:50.945 --> 00:26:52.535 They're such intelligent beings. 00:26:52.535 --> 00:26:53.465 They love to learn. 00:26:54.245 --> 00:26:55.715 and they, they'll learn anything. 00:26:55.715 --> 00:26:58.775 They'll learn lots of bad habits as well as good habits if you let them. 00:26:59.345 --> 00:27:03.820 and I think that's inevitably what often happens to, to, horses in the 00:27:03.820 --> 00:27:07.930 long run is that they get so bored, that they, they learn bad habits 00:27:07.930 --> 00:27:08.680 Rupert Isaacson: instead of I agree. 00:27:08.680 --> 00:27:12.520 I mean the, the, the, a lot of what people say, I think when they're saying, 00:27:12.525 --> 00:27:16.360 oh, this horse is bad to behave, or it's just bored and, and that horses 00:27:16.360 --> 00:27:19.180 are essentially playful animals and the one thing they're often so often 00:27:19.185 --> 00:27:20.920 not allowed to ever do is play. 00:27:20.920 --> 00:27:24.100 And certainly that, that play can't come into the working environment. 00:27:24.310 --> 00:27:30.280 Can you tell us how that, given that you are in these, this really 00:27:30.280 --> 00:27:37.060 constrained environment, what is your week to week program? 00:27:37.900 --> 00:27:41.290 For your horses that keeps them happy, involved, fit and body and 00:27:41.290 --> 00:27:43.330 mind that others could follow. 00:27:43.330 --> 00:27:44.560 What, what, what's your formula? 00:27:44.560 --> 00:27:45.850 What do you do at Child Vision? 00:27:46.180 --> 00:27:47.620 Terri Brosnan: Okay, so it's a real mix. 00:27:47.740 --> 00:27:48.640 across the board. 00:27:49.030 --> 00:27:51.430 There are play times, there's loose schooling. 00:27:51.850 --> 00:27:54.520 most of the weekends we, we don't work at the weekends. 00:27:54.520 --> 00:27:57.070 We're in a very luxury position with horses. 00:27:57.070 --> 00:27:58.090 Unlike most people. 00:27:58.450 --> 00:28:03.580 We, we are, our horses are off every weekend, so we encourage 00:28:03.580 --> 00:28:07.870 lots of loose schooling over our weekends, loose jumping, little 00:28:07.870 --> 00:28:11.680 bit of lunging, but nothing where there's a human on their back. 00:28:11.680 --> 00:28:15.490 If we can possibly get away with it over the weekend, Monday to 00:28:15.490 --> 00:28:17.560 Friday, then we'll work in hand. 00:28:17.560 --> 00:28:22.360 We'll work long reigns, we'll work lunging, and we will school our horses. 00:28:22.840 --> 00:28:24.340 We don't have a huge amount of time. 00:28:24.340 --> 00:28:25.810 We see an awful lot of people. 00:28:25.870 --> 00:28:29.530 How many do you see Between 80 and 120 every week. 00:28:30.760 --> 00:28:31.060 Okay. 00:28:31.060 --> 00:28:34.630 And we have a, we have a staff of, of four at the moment. 00:28:34.960 --> 00:28:35.290 80 00:28:35.290 --> 00:28:36.580 Rupert Isaacson: to a hundred people a week. 00:28:37.030 --> 00:28:37.960 Staff of four. 00:28:38.770 --> 00:28:43.720 And you said lunging in hand and long reigning during the week. 00:28:43.720 --> 00:28:47.680 When you're seeing these hundred people, how do you avoid there being a time 00:28:47.710 --> 00:28:51.190 conflict between what you gotta do for the horse and what you gotta do for 00:28:51.190 --> 00:28:51.580 Terri Brosnan: the people? 00:28:52.105 --> 00:28:54.895 So this was, this was the really interesting thing working 00:28:54.895 --> 00:28:58.705 with you guys was just where, how could we find the time? 00:28:58.915 --> 00:29:00.475 Where would we find the time? 00:29:00.475 --> 00:29:04.195 Because it seemed like, you know, you needed time for in hand work, you needed 00:29:04.195 --> 00:29:05.515 time for this, you needed time for that. 00:29:05.995 --> 00:29:08.305 And where were we gonna see all these clients? 00:29:08.875 --> 00:29:12.445 so we, we combined the two where, where possible, you know, we give lunch 00:29:12.445 --> 00:29:16.195 lessons, we'll give in hand work with our clients, we'll teach them how to 00:29:16.195 --> 00:29:18.025 do it, we'll teach them how to lunch. 00:29:18.775 --> 00:29:21.595 We will, you know, work with them in long reigns. 00:29:21.955 --> 00:29:26.065 We will in use side rains and we'll use market harbors. 00:29:26.070 --> 00:29:30.715 We'll use v e side rains to give our horse contact to work into, so 00:29:30.715 --> 00:29:33.715 that they can continue the work that they've done on the lunge or in the 00:29:33.955 --> 00:29:35.815 side rains as they progress around. 00:29:35.905 --> 00:29:36.415 Rupert Isaacson: Oh, that's clever. 00:29:36.415 --> 00:29:38.635 So you, you sessions, they can build their muscles at the 00:29:38.635 --> 00:29:39.775 same time as working with the 00:29:39.780 --> 00:29:40.165 Terri Brosnan: kids. 00:29:40.615 --> 00:29:41.245 Absolutely. 00:29:41.245 --> 00:29:43.945 Cuz we don't have enough time to do it outside of sessions. 00:29:44.155 --> 00:29:48.835 We have to incorporate that work into when the horses are actually moving. 00:29:49.555 --> 00:29:51.775 Rupert Isaacson: okay, so you, you, for example, would have an autistic 00:29:51.775 --> 00:29:55.375 or blind child on the horse while doing the in-hand work with the horse? 00:29:55.915 --> 00:29:56.335 Absolutely. 00:29:56.485 --> 00:29:57.805 Terri Brosnan: It gives them amazing feel. 00:29:58.335 --> 00:29:59.185 Rupert Isaacson: Ah, okay. 00:29:59.815 --> 00:30:00.475 Okay. 00:30:00.475 --> 00:30:01.135 No, this makes sense. 00:30:01.525 --> 00:30:04.285 And then do some of your, older. 00:30:05.500 --> 00:30:08.440 Clients who maybe are getting to adolescent, can you bring 00:30:08.440 --> 00:30:09.550 them in as part of the team? 00:30:09.550 --> 00:30:13.000 Can you then hand over some of the lunging, long reigning and in hand 00:30:13.000 --> 00:30:13.570 Terri Brosnan: work to them? 00:30:13.720 --> 00:30:17.200 Yeah, I mean, we, we would have, we would have volunteers and we would 00:30:17.200 --> 00:30:22.420 have older clients that come in and do work experience with us and volunteer. 00:30:22.840 --> 00:30:28.540 And we would try, and this is not rocket science, and there is very little 00:30:28.540 --> 00:30:34.960 gatekeeping within, our organization or our team within the expertise we have. 00:30:35.590 --> 00:30:37.780 We have this expertise, do you wanna come and learn? 00:30:37.900 --> 00:30:38.920 Let's do this. 00:30:39.400 --> 00:30:42.970 You know, we'll give, we'll pitch it at the right volume, we'll 00:30:42.970 --> 00:30:44.230 pitch it at the right level. 00:30:44.710 --> 00:30:48.670 but we are not saying, you can't do this or you can't learn this. 00:30:48.820 --> 00:30:50.650 There's far too much of that in horses. 00:30:50.950 --> 00:30:53.590 It's like, I have this knowledge and you need to give me all 00:30:53.595 --> 00:30:54.730 your money so you can have it. 00:30:56.200 --> 00:30:59.680 so we try and just say, look, you know, what, what part of this, do 00:30:59.680 --> 00:31:01.480 you wanna help us train these horses? 00:31:01.630 --> 00:31:04.210 Would you like to, to learn how to lunge them? 00:31:04.420 --> 00:31:06.340 Would you like to learn how to do in handwork? 00:31:06.880 --> 00:31:11.200 And we keep it fairly basic because, you know, it depends on how we 00:31:11.200 --> 00:31:12.880 don't wanna overwhelm people either. 00:31:13.600 --> 00:31:17.950 You want to set them up for success and make sure that they're, you're, you're 00:31:17.950 --> 00:31:21.850 providing them with accurate training that's going to allow them to do the work 00:31:21.850 --> 00:31:26.260 that th that you're doing with them and improve what the situation and, and make 00:31:26.265 --> 00:31:27.790 it all happier for them and the horse. 00:31:28.225 --> 00:31:30.565 Rupert Isaacson: From the listener's point of view, I can really attest to this. 00:31:30.625 --> 00:31:35.155 I had the, honor of going to the, Royal Dublin show, which 00:31:35.160 --> 00:31:36.835 is the big Irish horse show. 00:31:37.615 --> 00:31:39.445 If you haven't ever gone there, you really should. 00:31:39.450 --> 00:31:41.905 It's one of the great cultural experiences in the world, I think. 00:31:42.445 --> 00:31:50.520 and, I saw you Terry and Lucy, Lucy, Dylan, your right hand, who's amazing, and 00:31:50.550 --> 00:31:53.070 David, , tell me David's surname again. 00:31:53.080 --> 00:31:53.870 David Mole. 00:31:54.000 --> 00:31:55.320 David Mole, that's right. 00:31:55.320 --> 00:31:57.720 David Moore, who comes from a show jumping background, but is 00:31:57.725 --> 00:31:59.580 now working in the autism field. 00:31:59.730 --> 00:32:06.090 I saw you guys do a, a demo of the work, and one of the things that I 00:32:06.090 --> 00:32:12.390 found very amusing was that the horses looked so good, that, and you listeners 00:32:12.395 --> 00:32:13.440 will get a chuckle out of this. 00:32:13.800 --> 00:32:16.680 So, basically the reason why a lot of people bring their horses 00:32:16.680 --> 00:32:18.780 stubborn and show, obviously try and sell their horses, right? 00:32:18.780 --> 00:32:21.780 So the, the horses had to look fabulous, you know, huge top 00:32:21.780 --> 00:32:24.390 lines, huge muscles, da da. 00:32:24.390 --> 00:32:29.040 And so the, the child, we saw the child vision team go in to do their 00:32:29.400 --> 00:32:31.860 therapeutic riding demo on horses. 00:32:31.860 --> 00:32:36.480 That looked so good that people came up who had no idea what they 00:32:36.480 --> 00:32:39.600 were doing and said, oh, which showing class are these horses in? 00:32:39.900 --> 00:32:41.100 And are they for sale? 00:32:42.480 --> 00:32:46.320 And these were like donation throwaway horses that you guys had. 00:32:47.055 --> 00:32:50.295 Totally turned around, and looked frankly magnificent. 00:32:50.385 --> 00:32:53.685 and this of course, I was, I'm not used to seeing in the therapeutic riding world. 00:32:53.955 --> 00:32:58.455 What do you think, we can do or you can or one can do mm-hmm. 00:32:58.530 --> 00:33:07.035 To get their therapeutic places, getting their horses into meta horses like this. 00:33:07.035 --> 00:33:10.125 Because I saw how these horses arrived with you and they Yeah. 00:33:10.275 --> 00:33:11.055 Didn't look like that. 00:33:11.475 --> 00:33:15.315 And then I saw how they were a year later, while having been trained 00:33:15.645 --> 00:33:17.895 and rehabbed while serving the kids. 00:33:17.900 --> 00:33:21.195 It wasn't like you had the time and the luxury to take them out 00:33:21.195 --> 00:33:23.685 of work and build them, and then you've done it at the same time. 00:33:23.985 --> 00:33:28.845 What would you say to, people who are running therapeutic riding or even 00:33:28.850 --> 00:33:32.085 just regular riding, establishments who are, you do have this time 00:33:32.090 --> 00:33:34.545 crunch to get their horses like this? 00:33:34.545 --> 00:33:35.475 What, what's your advice? 00:33:36.555 --> 00:33:40.755 Terri Brosnan: Well, first of all, on a very basic business economic level, 00:33:41.295 --> 00:33:43.605 this is just a no-brainer for me. 00:33:44.355 --> 00:33:49.605 you know, up until, you know, a couple of years ago, people are spending money, 00:33:49.905 --> 00:33:51.525 massively on equine chiropractics. 00:33:52.785 --> 00:33:56.685 you're, you know, you're spending money on spas, equine spas. 00:33:56.955 --> 00:34:01.905 You're, you're trying to find time to school your horses there, 00:34:01.905 --> 00:34:05.445 your insurance is going through the roof because your horses are. 00:34:05.895 --> 00:34:06.975 Switched off. 00:34:07.065 --> 00:34:10.575 And accidents happen when horses are not paying attention and 00:34:10.575 --> 00:34:12.675 they're not engaged with the people that are working with them. 00:34:13.365 --> 00:34:18.310 so from a very basic economic perspective, I have a very low insurance, rate. 00:34:18.580 --> 00:34:22.360 I have really good feedback from my clients. 00:34:22.360 --> 00:34:25.660 They love being on my horses and looking up my horses. 00:34:25.870 --> 00:34:27.010 They want to be with them. 00:34:27.460 --> 00:34:29.860 I don't have big chiropractic bills. 00:34:30.040 --> 00:34:34.480 I have very small spa and chiropractic bills for my horses because they have 00:34:34.480 --> 00:34:37.240 good core strength and they are stable. 00:34:37.540 --> 00:34:42.010 So from, if you leave everything else aside, you know, if I leave all of 00:34:42.010 --> 00:34:43.000 the therapeutics, by the way, that's a 00:34:43.005 --> 00:34:44.740 Rupert Isaacson: dog in the background, everybody, sorry. 00:34:44.740 --> 00:34:45.220 It is 00:34:46.270 --> 00:34:49.750 Terri Brosnan: a very, very large dog with high heel spot clip 00:34:49.750 --> 00:34:51.010 clapping across the wooden floor. 00:34:51.430 --> 00:34:56.110 if you leave all of, if you leave the therapeutics aside, but you were in a 00:34:56.115 --> 00:35:02.890 horse business and you want your horse to turn out and be, you know, look amazing 00:35:03.940 --> 00:35:10.870 and behave amazingly, and be interested in what they're doing, then the work 00:35:10.870 --> 00:35:13.510 that we do with them is how that happens. 00:35:13.750 --> 00:35:16.870 It wa they, as you say, they weren't like that when we got them. 00:35:17.470 --> 00:35:21.820 but putting these horses together not only improves their physical 00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:24.730 attribute, but they're mentally much. 00:35:25.045 --> 00:35:26.155 More engaged. 00:35:26.485 --> 00:35:30.085 They really have a trust bond with the people that are 00:35:30.085 --> 00:35:32.455 working beside them every day. 00:35:32.875 --> 00:35:37.525 You know, they'll look to Lucy and David and myself, and they'll, you know, they'll 00:35:37.525 --> 00:35:42.535 trust us over whatever is happening on their back, which means that we 00:35:42.540 --> 00:35:47.665 can use them for very compromised kids because they're not listening to this. 00:35:47.815 --> 00:35:48.445 They're listening. 00:35:48.475 --> 00:35:50.235 They're not listening to the sky monkey, they're not listening 00:35:50.235 --> 00:35:51.025 to the person on the back. 00:35:51.265 --> 00:35:54.655 They're listening to the person at their front, at the side who's, who's 00:35:54.655 --> 00:35:57.985 going to mind them, and who's the person who puts all the work into them. 00:35:58.825 --> 00:36:03.025 and so from that basis, it's, it really is a no-brainer. 00:36:03.655 --> 00:36:09.745 and I couldn't go back to producing horses for anything in a different way, because 00:36:09.745 --> 00:36:11.695 it just wouldn't make economic sense. 00:36:12.265 --> 00:36:16.435 Rupert Isaacson: So for you, the, the, the secret is in the, the play time, loose 00:36:16.435 --> 00:36:21.505 schooling, and then also the lunging in hand and, and in, and, long reigning work. 00:36:22.075 --> 00:36:22.165 Yeah. 00:36:22.375 --> 00:36:27.625 But combining that with the clients now, can they come to you and learn this? 00:36:28.285 --> 00:36:28.885 Terri Brosnan: Absolutely. 00:36:29.275 --> 00:36:33.415 you know, we're, we're happy, happy to teach people what we're we're doing. 00:36:33.865 --> 00:36:37.345 because it's, I think when you find something that works so 00:36:37.345 --> 00:36:39.535 well, you want to pass it on. 00:36:39.535 --> 00:36:41.155 You don't want to keep it to yourself. 00:36:41.155 --> 00:36:46.645 You wanna spread the word, and you know, We're an open door. 00:36:46.645 --> 00:36:48.655 People can come in and shadow us. 00:36:49.135 --> 00:36:50.995 They can come and do courses with us. 00:36:51.445 --> 00:36:52.915 they can learn about what we do. 00:36:53.605 --> 00:36:54.625 we're, we're happy. 00:36:54.625 --> 00:36:57.055 We're really are very open campus. 00:36:57.235 --> 00:36:58.855 because the, we've nothing to hide. 00:36:59.845 --> 00:37:01.315 I think that's one of the things as well. 00:37:01.315 --> 00:37:02.905 It takes away that whole anxiety. 00:37:03.655 --> 00:37:06.475 You know, people, how do you train your horses? 00:37:06.475 --> 00:37:07.285 Is there some secret? 00:37:07.285 --> 00:37:08.275 There's no secret. 00:37:09.085 --> 00:37:10.555 This is science. 00:37:10.555 --> 00:37:16.225 This is basic good horsemanship, teaching your horse new tricks, keeping them 00:37:16.225 --> 00:37:21.445 engaged, doing with your horse is what you would love people to do with your kids. 00:37:21.925 --> 00:37:22.075 Yeah. 00:37:22.945 --> 00:37:24.655 Keeping them interested. 00:37:24.655 --> 00:37:29.245 Learning, moving, supple, happy, engaged. 00:37:30.415 --> 00:37:35.365 Rupert Isaacson: So this what this sounds like, you, you, you, you, there's some 00:37:35.875 --> 00:37:37.195 sounds like conflict resolution to me. 00:37:37.885 --> 00:37:42.745 so you've got, you've got time conflict resolved. 00:37:42.750 --> 00:37:42.885 Yeah. 00:37:43.465 --> 00:37:50.395 You've got a seeming conflict between the sport or performance horse aspect 00:37:50.455 --> 00:37:53.125 and the therapeutic aspect result. 00:37:53.155 --> 00:37:53.575 Mm-hmm. 00:37:53.660 --> 00:37:58.945 You've got, can we have horses in a city versus country seemingly resolved? 00:37:59.395 --> 00:38:02.425 and also looking for resolution through what you're doing through equine assisted 00:38:02.425 --> 00:38:07.315 island and the, these courses for young professionals with horse sport island. 00:38:09.205 --> 00:38:15.415 I know that you have a bit of a background in conflict resolution, 00:38:15.895 --> 00:38:17.125 that's a little bit unusual. 00:38:17.125 --> 00:38:22.465 Would you tell us, cuz it, because I think those stories would really help 00:38:22.470 --> 00:38:30.635 inform people of how you've managed to come up with this rather revolutionary. 00:38:30.785 --> 00:38:31.395 Yeah, yeah. 00:38:31.955 --> 00:38:35.395 Terri Brosnan: I have, I have a brain that is tuned to conflict. 00:38:35.935 --> 00:38:40.245 I suppose I grew up, , in the north of Ireland, between, I was born in 00:38:40.250 --> 00:38:43.665 1969, just after the trouble started. 00:38:44.505 --> 00:38:48.345 and I lived there until I was 10 years old, 11 years of age in 1981. 00:38:48.795 --> 00:38:49.185 Now, 00:38:49.185 --> 00:38:52.065 Rupert Isaacson: just before you go on, not everyone who's listening knows 00:38:52.065 --> 00:38:56.475 what the troubles were and that's, it doesn't sound like a very big word. 00:38:57.935 --> 00:39:02.865 Terri Brosnan: It's, it's a very small word to describe an apartheid system. 00:39:03.345 --> 00:39:03.735 Okay. 00:39:03.795 --> 00:39:08.595 so in the north of Ireland, there were two opposing, factions. 00:39:09.765 --> 00:39:16.365 Very divided between what was seen as the Catholic Irish Republican, faction and 00:39:16.365 --> 00:39:22.005 the Protestant unionist with, that's a union with the uk, and wanting to still 00:39:22.005 --> 00:39:25.125 be part of the UK government and monarchy. 00:39:25.575 --> 00:39:30.255 these were people who had originally been, asked to come and settle 00:39:30.255 --> 00:39:33.315 the land in Northern Ireland, from Scotland, from England. 00:39:33.825 --> 00:39:38.955 they had been given this land to settle and to organize, centuries before. 00:39:39.315 --> 00:39:42.825 So they were at odds with each other because the people who had come 00:39:42.825 --> 00:39:47.565 in, been given the land, had taken it off the existing inhabitants. 00:39:47.955 --> 00:39:52.635 they had organized all of the businesses, and the economics so 00:39:52.640 --> 00:39:56.925 that they benefited only and that the indigenous pop, indigenous 00:39:57.105 --> 00:39:59.655 population couldn't benefit from it. 00:40:00.225 --> 00:40:03.465 and, and that obviously leads to conflict. 00:40:04.455 --> 00:40:10.455 however, you also have a situation where people have to live side by 00:40:10.460 --> 00:40:16.815 side, and they've defined a way of, regardless of their internal politics 00:40:16.815 --> 00:40:20.595 or even their external politics, of finding a way of smiling and nodding 00:40:20.595 --> 00:40:25.485 at people across the counter in a, in a, in a day-to-day situation. 00:40:25.935 --> 00:40:26.295 and. 00:40:27.210 --> 00:40:31.980 I have great observation skills, so I, I spent my childhood watching these 00:40:31.980 --> 00:40:38.760 interactions, and watching people who I knew were in opposition to 00:40:38.760 --> 00:40:44.550 each other, having to go about their day-to-day lives in some somewhat of 00:40:44.550 --> 00:40:49.860 a hand in glove way, and yet being at very opposing ends of the spectrum. 00:40:50.280 --> 00:40:51.630 And it was fascinating how that 00:40:52.120 --> 00:40:52.590 Rupert Isaacson: might turned. 00:40:52.590 --> 00:40:57.270 Well, that makes it sound like sort of village or o office politics. 00:40:57.270 --> 00:40:58.470 This is not what was going on. 00:40:58.800 --> 00:41:02.130 The, the, the, the troubles for tho for those listeners who, dunno, what happened 00:41:02.400 --> 00:41:05.010 was it erupted into enormous violence. 00:41:05.310 --> 00:41:05.610 Yes. 00:41:05.670 --> 00:41:06.250 and not, not 00:41:06.250 --> 00:41:09.160 Terri Brosnan: British army were sent in to the British Army, 00:41:09.160 --> 00:41:10.990 were sent in to qam the violence. 00:41:11.695 --> 00:41:16.285 It started with, peaceful marches, people looking for, civil rights, 00:41:16.465 --> 00:41:18.215 effectively, the, the Catholics 00:41:18.215 --> 00:41:19.295 Rupert Isaacson: looking for civil rights 00:41:19.295 --> 00:41:19.695 Terri Brosnan: effectively. 00:41:19.700 --> 00:41:20.985 Catholics looking for civil rights. 00:41:21.465 --> 00:41:25.185 and, the English government going, oh, well, we can't have them taking over. 00:41:25.190 --> 00:41:30.465 Because the English government had a vested interest in supplying the unionist 00:41:30.555 --> 00:41:35.205 population, the, the Protestant population with money and jobs and keeping the 00:41:35.505 --> 00:41:40.935 governing Northern Ireland, keeping it all of their income in the UK tax coffers. 00:41:41.355 --> 00:41:43.905 and so they said, look, we will support you guys. 00:41:44.025 --> 00:41:47.535 We'll send in the Army to keep the peace in inverted commas. 00:41:47.985 --> 00:41:53.325 and so in 1969, they sent paratroopers onto the streets of Belfast, and 00:41:53.325 --> 00:41:59.295 violence erupted on a grand scale, because, Catholic, people were 00:41:59.295 --> 00:42:04.545 already living in enclaves and, very poor economic and, situations. 00:42:05.295 --> 00:42:07.455 They were at the end of their tether, tether. 00:42:07.455 --> 00:42:10.605 They could not earn a living, successfully. 00:42:10.815 --> 00:42:14.835 They couldn't get out of the situation they were in, because all 00:42:14.895 --> 00:42:19.575 of very, like a apartheid in South Africa, all of the, power was in the 00:42:19.575 --> 00:42:21.165 hands of the unionist population. 00:42:21.945 --> 00:42:22.035 tell 00:42:22.035 --> 00:42:23.025 Rupert Isaacson: us about the violence. 00:42:23.175 --> 00:42:24.855 How did the violence manifest itself? 00:42:24.945 --> 00:42:26.145 What, what happened? 00:42:26.955 --> 00:42:29.895 Terri Brosnan: Oh, So, yeah, this is a, it's a, it's a thing. 00:42:29.895 --> 00:42:31.875 It's funny to to think about it now. 00:42:33.315 --> 00:42:35.955 It's, there were bombs all the time. 00:42:36.045 --> 00:42:38.535 There were bomb scares every day. 00:42:39.255 --> 00:42:43.245 So you might be in a shop and just be asked to leave, put down everything 00:42:43.250 --> 00:42:45.315 you've, you've done and walk out the door. 00:42:46.215 --> 00:42:49.425 you got searched every time you went into a public building. 00:42:49.815 --> 00:42:55.695 Any public building, could be a library, could be a shop, anywhere where other 00:42:55.695 --> 00:42:57.345 people went into the door as well. 00:42:57.375 --> 00:43:02.205 You could be, bodily searched at every entrance to the shop. 00:43:03.045 --> 00:43:04.635 your handbag was looked in. 00:43:05.265 --> 00:43:08.655 your shopping bags were examined every time you went into a shop. 00:43:09.165 --> 00:43:09.375 and 00:43:09.375 --> 00:43:10.875 Rupert Isaacson: bombs were going off, right? 00:43:10.875 --> 00:43:10.965 Yes. 00:43:11.085 --> 00:43:12.495 Bombs were actually exploding. 00:43:13.065 --> 00:43:13.365 Yep. 00:43:13.455 --> 00:43:13.815 And killing 00:43:13.815 --> 00:43:14.175 Terri Brosnan: people. 00:43:14.715 --> 00:43:15.075 Yep. 00:43:15.645 --> 00:43:20.175 People were being kidnapped, people were being shot, people were being disappeared. 00:43:20.985 --> 00:43:26.085 and it may, it was happening and it didn't always happen so close to home, 00:43:27.285 --> 00:43:29.145 but it was happening all around you. 00:43:29.745 --> 00:43:33.345 The funny thing that always springs to mind when, when I talk about this 00:43:33.345 --> 00:43:37.305 is there was an announcement used to be made around about six o'clock 00:43:37.305 --> 00:43:38.595 or seven o'clock in the evening. 00:43:38.895 --> 00:43:41.925 It would just come on in the middle of TV programs on your tv and it would, 00:43:41.925 --> 00:43:46.605 people would say, will all key holders in a certain area please return to their. 00:43:47.730 --> 00:43:48.330 Shops. 00:43:48.810 --> 00:43:52.440 And that was because there had been a fire bomb or there had been, 00:43:52.800 --> 00:43:54.510 there was a bomb scare in the area. 00:43:54.870 --> 00:43:59.730 And, and my, my father was a business owner, so he would often have to get up, 00:44:00.090 --> 00:44:06.750 drive back into Belfast, go and open the shop or do whatever was required of him. 00:44:07.170 --> 00:44:09.720 And people lived like this all the 00:44:09.720 --> 00:44:10.620 Rupert Isaacson: time now. 00:44:10.620 --> 00:44:10.860 Okay. 00:44:10.860 --> 00:44:13.200 So your father was a business owner through Yes. 00:44:13.440 --> 00:44:16.770 So you, and you were a child through this thing with bombs going 00:44:16.775 --> 00:44:18.240 off, people targeting businesses. 00:44:18.660 --> 00:44:24.295 And one of the things I know happened, was that both sides ended up behaving 00:44:24.295 --> 00:44:26.445 somewhat criminally and Yeah. 00:44:26.665 --> 00:44:31.975 And getting protection rackets going where they would go and say, 00:44:31.975 --> 00:44:34.585 well, we will burn your shop or we'll bomb your shop or whatever. 00:44:35.065 --> 00:44:36.615 or we'll kill you if you, you don't pay us protection money. 00:44:36.620 --> 00:44:39.865 You don't pay us protection money, which we'll use to supposedly 00:44:39.865 --> 00:44:41.575 for our, our, our cause. 00:44:42.335 --> 00:44:42.965 Our cause. 00:44:42.965 --> 00:44:44.465 But actually we're gonna, you know, use to, yeah. 00:44:44.945 --> 00:44:45.275 yeah. 00:44:45.905 --> 00:44:47.225 What happened to your dad? 00:44:47.315 --> 00:44:48.755 Was he caught up in this? 00:44:49.325 --> 00:44:49.715 Terri Brosnan: Yes. 00:44:49.720 --> 00:44:51.065 So he had an off license. 00:44:51.245 --> 00:44:51.665 Rupert Isaacson: what's an off 00:44:51.665 --> 00:44:53.135 Terri Brosnan: license for those who are not British? 00:44:53.265 --> 00:44:54.995 Oh, , where you sell beer and wine. 00:44:55.035 --> 00:44:55.555 A liquor store? 00:44:55.775 --> 00:44:56.065 yeah. 00:44:56.065 --> 00:44:57.195 Liquor store, exactly. 00:44:57.195 --> 00:44:58.425 In the States, the liquor store. 00:44:58.425 --> 00:45:01.145 In, in, in, in Australia it's an an offie. 00:45:02.895 --> 00:45:03.195 So 00:45:04.215 --> 00:45:06.075 Rupert Isaacson: license to sell alcohol off premises. 00:45:06.390 --> 00:45:07.560 Absent off, off license. 00:45:07.560 --> 00:45:07.650 Okay. 00:45:07.650 --> 00:45:07.860 Off 00:45:07.860 --> 00:45:08.370 Terri Brosnan: license. 00:45:08.800 --> 00:45:13.030 And so, he had been in the wine trade all of his life. 00:45:13.360 --> 00:45:15.010 really enjoyed that end. 00:45:15.015 --> 00:45:18.190 Had a barn restaurant in a, in a village. 00:45:18.940 --> 00:45:24.010 And he knew instinctively that actually the area that he was looking at to 00:45:24.010 --> 00:45:28.330 set up this off license would be, was a developing up and coming area. 00:45:28.780 --> 00:45:31.360 And he thought, I know that needs an off license. 00:45:31.450 --> 00:45:35.050 And he was right, it did, maybe just not at that time. 00:45:35.470 --> 00:45:40.450 So he, he put this off license in what was effectively an old part 00:45:40.450 --> 00:45:42.400 of the markets area of off Belfast. 00:45:42.970 --> 00:45:46.630 and, it was right between two areas. 00:45:46.840 --> 00:45:48.370 one was Protestant, one was Catholic. 00:45:48.375 --> 00:45:53.440 So both factions would come, knock on his door, hold ho, hold him up with guns, 00:45:53.590 --> 00:45:56.470 bombs, and demand money with menaces. 00:45:56.710 --> 00:46:03.040 and so he had, he had three or four bad incidences, where he 00:46:04.060 --> 00:46:07.270 just avoided being seriously hurt. 00:46:07.840 --> 00:46:09.310 Rupert Isaacson: there's one you told me about. 00:46:10.960 --> 00:46:13.510 Terri Brosnan: About, oh, the guys with the, with the barber, the ceiling. 00:46:13.750 --> 00:46:17.080 Rupert Isaacson: Please tell us that story so solicits can get 00:46:17.080 --> 00:46:18.640 an idea of how extreme this was. 00:46:19.030 --> 00:46:21.010 Terri Brosnan: So they came in, one had a gun. 00:46:21.010 --> 00:46:25.450 So he hold, holds my dad up and he says, you know, just don't make any false moves. 00:46:25.450 --> 00:46:26.920 Don't ring anybody, don't shout. 00:46:27.430 --> 00:46:31.450 and he sent the other guy up to plant an incendiary device, which obviously 00:46:31.455 --> 00:46:34.900 a bottle shop is a great place to plant an incendiary device cuz you're 00:46:34.900 --> 00:46:38.860 gonna have lots of, you're gonna have lots of glass flying everywhere. 00:46:39.400 --> 00:46:47.740 and so he sends them upstairs into the, store area, and there's this and the 00:46:47.740 --> 00:46:51.970 floor, the ceiling literally comes down near the floor and goes back up again. 00:46:52.270 --> 00:46:52.450 Really 00:46:52.450 --> 00:46:54.510 Rupert Isaacson: it's obvious that this, the ceiling goes, 00:46:54.515 --> 00:46:55.690 goes down, it comes back up. 00:46:56.080 --> 00:46:56.500 Yeah. 00:46:56.650 --> 00:46:58.480 Most people never see that in, in their life. 00:46:59.020 --> 00:46:59.320 I know. 00:46:59.320 --> 00:46:59.321 It 00:46:59.326 --> 00:47:04.120 Terri Brosnan: just go and the, the, the reaction from the floor back up again. 00:47:04.120 --> 00:47:08.880 So it just, and, and the guy who's holding my dad up says, walk. 00:47:08.940 --> 00:47:12.240 Don't run to the guy upstairs. 00:47:12.245 --> 00:47:13.560 He's s scuffling out. 00:47:14.190 --> 00:47:18.060 The incendiary device had gone on under his arm, got off under his arm 00:47:18.060 --> 00:47:23.100 and it, he, he was missing part of his limb and the other guy grabs him. 00:47:23.100 --> 00:47:26.400 The two of them make it out onto the street and they get away. 00:47:26.940 --> 00:47:27.390 And this guy's 00:47:27.390 --> 00:47:28.960 Rupert Isaacson: like holding it his seven arm. 00:47:28.960 --> 00:47:29.160 Yes. 00:47:29.550 --> 00:47:29.850 Yeah. 00:47:30.480 --> 00:47:30.900 Blood spurting 00:47:32.160 --> 00:47:32.850 Terri Brosnan: never caught. 00:47:34.500 --> 00:47:35.070 Rupert Isaacson: Incredible. 00:47:35.520 --> 00:47:37.920 Got into, and this was just, this was just one of several incidents. 00:47:38.220 --> 00:47:39.630 Terri Brosnan: One of several incidents. 00:47:40.320 --> 00:47:45.360 so yeah, it wasn't a place to have a successful business in the seventies. 00:47:45.360 --> 00:47:46.440 It just wasn't possible. 00:47:46.770 --> 00:47:46.920 Now 00:47:47.010 --> 00:47:51.720 Rupert Isaacson: how were you getting into horses mm-hmm. 00:47:51.900 --> 00:47:56.520 While you were living effectively in a war zone in Belfast during the troubles? 00:47:56.520 --> 00:47:58.590 What, what, what was happening that you could do that? 00:47:59.340 --> 00:47:59.610 So, 00:47:59.615 --> 00:48:03.210 Terri Brosnan: it's interesting, you know, my dad had, he has this 00:48:03.210 --> 00:48:05.400 vision for, an amazing place. 00:48:05.940 --> 00:48:10.740 he wanted to set up a hotel that also had a riding stables, along 00:48:10.740 --> 00:48:14.580 a river, in a beautiful place called Newcastle and County down. 00:48:15.120 --> 00:48:19.410 And he had bought the hotel sale, ended up falling through 1974. 00:48:20.100 --> 00:48:23.970 but he had this vision and he, he knew that this was what something 00:48:23.970 --> 00:48:25.260 that people would love to do. 00:48:26.280 --> 00:48:30.660 and he said, you know what, you, you would love to be on horses. 00:48:30.665 --> 00:48:35.125 And at the age of five, I was sent, onto the back of this little Shetland 00:48:35.125 --> 00:48:38.155 pony with my brother, and he hated it. 00:48:38.485 --> 00:48:39.955 And he fell off the first day. 00:48:40.285 --> 00:48:42.535 And I loved it and I couldn't get enough of it. 00:48:43.195 --> 00:48:44.905 and so it was a priority. 00:48:44.905 --> 00:48:47.335 My dad just went, yeah, do you know what you're gonna do this? 00:48:47.845 --> 00:48:52.145 So he sent me every week, And it, you know, it was one of the, the, it was the 00:48:52.145 --> 00:48:56.555 light in my life, in the maddest of times. 00:48:56.765 --> 00:48:58.565 It was the thing that kept me going. 00:48:58.655 --> 00:48:58.895 Right. 00:48:58.900 --> 00:48:59.045 Because 00:48:59.045 --> 00:49:01.055 Rupert Isaacson: Belfast itself as a city was not so big. 00:49:01.060 --> 00:49:03.815 So you could get out of it to the countryside relatively quickly. 00:49:03.845 --> 00:49:04.565 Absolutely. 00:49:04.565 --> 00:49:04.895 Terri Brosnan: Yeah. 00:49:04.900 --> 00:49:06.305 Really, really easily. 00:49:06.695 --> 00:49:10.275 Rupert Isaacson: and so this craziness is going on where you are living. 00:49:10.845 --> 00:49:11.175 Terri Brosnan: Yeah. 00:49:11.175 --> 00:49:12.165 And you need to get away from 00:49:12.165 --> 00:49:12.285 Rupert Isaacson: it. 00:49:12.645 --> 00:49:12.975 Okay. 00:49:13.485 --> 00:49:14.145 That makes sense. 00:49:14.325 --> 00:49:14.775 But it's not just 00:49:15.235 --> 00:49:17.445 Terri Brosnan: going on, it's not just going on where you're living. 00:49:17.445 --> 00:49:21.315 It's going on around the families that you're living with. 00:49:21.435 --> 00:49:21.645 Mm-hmm. 00:49:21.645 --> 00:49:26.025 The people you're in school with, you know, it may not be happening in your 00:49:26.025 --> 00:49:27.735 home, but it's happening in their home. 00:49:27.735 --> 00:49:29.325 It's happening in your family. 00:49:29.325 --> 00:49:31.425 Extended families lives. 00:49:31.635 --> 00:49:32.565 It affected everybody. 00:49:32.565 --> 00:49:34.215 It's a very small area. 00:49:34.215 --> 00:49:36.945 I mean, we've less than a million people at the time in Northern 00:49:36.950 --> 00:49:39.855 Ireland and over six counties. 00:49:40.575 --> 00:49:45.285 and so, you know, a dispersed population, very few of them in the city. 00:49:45.985 --> 00:49:49.285 Rupert Isaacson: So obviously, this is not really a healthy environment, if you can 00:49:49.285 --> 00:49:51.565 possibly get out of it, to bring up kids. 00:49:51.655 --> 00:49:53.275 what did your dad do? 00:49:53.275 --> 00:49:55.015 How did he handle that dilemma? 00:49:56.065 --> 00:50:01.015 Terri Brosnan: So in interestingly, he had, through, through all of this trouble 00:50:01.020 --> 00:50:05.185 in, in the off license, he'd ended up, one of his bank businesses had gone bankrupt. 00:50:05.395 --> 00:50:07.705 He was working for other people. 00:50:08.035 --> 00:50:12.655 And it was 1980s, , Thatcher government in the uk. 00:50:13.375 --> 00:50:16.525 lots of economic hardship across the uk. 00:50:17.065 --> 00:50:19.405 so he had lost a job that he had. 00:50:20.125 --> 00:50:23.875 and during the day when he was unemployed, he used to go down to the library 00:50:23.875 --> 00:50:28.435 and look at all of the newspapers that they had for possible jobs. 00:50:28.495 --> 00:50:32.755 And one of them was for a job on a stud farm in county temporary. 00:50:33.355 --> 00:50:38.005 and he clipped it out, brought it home, and he said, oh my goodness, look at this. 00:50:38.005 --> 00:50:39.235 Wouldn't this be amazing? 00:50:39.955 --> 00:50:42.985 and on a whim, he applied for the job. 00:50:42.985 --> 00:50:48.265 It was a job of, effectively, house manager butler to an American 00:50:48.265 --> 00:50:50.905 multimillionaire who ran a stud farm. 00:50:51.400 --> 00:50:55.540 In the most beautiful county in Ireland, in temporary, and in 00:50:55.540 --> 00:50:56.200 Rupert Isaacson: Southern Ireland. 00:50:56.200 --> 00:50:57.070 Not in Northern Ireland. 00:50:57.070 --> 00:50:57.850 In Southern Ireland. 00:50:57.850 --> 00:50:58.930 Terri Brosnan: Away from the troubles. 00:50:59.230 --> 00:51:00.490 Away from the troubles. 00:51:00.910 --> 00:51:02.380 And he got the job. 00:51:03.520 --> 00:51:06.190 and he went down to try it out for a couple of months, 00:51:06.300 --> 00:51:09.220 and things were escalating. 00:51:09.220 --> 00:51:12.790 The hunger strikes were ongoing in, Belfast at the time. 00:51:13.060 --> 00:51:17.440 These were political prisoners, hunger striking for political, political 00:51:17.440 --> 00:51:21.430 prisoner status and recognition by the uk, which was not happening. 00:51:22.060 --> 00:51:24.730 they had been on dirty protests and they had gone on 00:51:24.730 --> 00:51:27.510 to, , starvation, hunger strike. 00:51:27.630 --> 00:51:34.620 and so tensions were incredibly high, and we couldn't really wait to get out. 00:51:35.490 --> 00:51:36.960 it was getting closer and closer. 00:51:36.960 --> 00:51:38.670 My, my parents were really concerned. 00:51:38.675 --> 00:51:44.670 My older brother was at, you know, he's 13, 14, very vulnerable age 00:51:45.240 --> 00:51:48.270 when you're seeing all of this tension around you community-wise. 00:51:48.930 --> 00:51:57.000 and we had arranged to leave in May of 1981, and the day we moved house 00:51:57.000 --> 00:51:58.710 was the day that Bobby Sands died. 00:51:59.100 --> 00:51:59.850 Rupert Isaacson: One of the may. 00:51:59.855 --> 00:52:00.490 Tell us who, yeah. 00:52:00.490 --> 00:52:02.700 Tell us who Bobby Sands was and why that was important. 00:52:03.120 --> 00:52:03.450 He 00:52:03.450 --> 00:52:05.400 Terri Brosnan: was one of the main hunger strikers. 00:52:05.910 --> 00:52:08.665 and on the Catholic end, on the, yeah, Catholic end. 00:52:08.665 --> 00:52:16.405 He, he was in the Mays prison and he was, Protesting peacefully for political 00:52:16.405 --> 00:52:21.595 prisoner status of recognition that these people were not just, were not criminals. 00:52:22.465 --> 00:52:28.165 That they were there because they were engaged in, conflict. 00:52:28.735 --> 00:52:34.015 That a political conflict with, the current regime in the north of Ireland. 00:52:34.855 --> 00:52:37.225 and it wasn't being recognized. 00:52:37.435 --> 00:52:38.425 so they'd been arrested. 00:52:38.425 --> 00:52:41.035 A lot of them had been interned without trial. 00:52:41.755 --> 00:52:46.075 and then they took things as far as they could. 00:52:46.495 --> 00:52:47.905 They stopped wearing clothes. 00:52:47.905 --> 00:52:50.905 They started, stopped using toilet facilities. 00:52:51.385 --> 00:52:54.805 and they smeared their excrement on the walls in the, in the, the prison 00:52:55.045 --> 00:52:56.875 in order to highlight their plight. 00:52:57.355 --> 00:53:00.145 and eventually the only thing they could resort to was hunger strike. 00:53:00.685 --> 00:53:01.555 and so they did. 00:53:01.735 --> 00:53:09.295 and several of them died, and Bobby Sands had stood as an MP for his 00:53:09.295 --> 00:53:14.815 area, and it was unheard of that a member of parliament, parliament 00:53:15.325 --> 00:53:19.225 of the UK parliament would be on hunger strike and then subsequently 00:53:19.225 --> 00:53:21.685 die, from that hunger strike. 00:53:22.225 --> 00:53:25.105 And it was just insane. 00:53:25.105 --> 00:53:26.665 The place went up like a Tinder kick. 00:53:28.435 --> 00:53:28.735 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:53:28.735 --> 00:53:30.565 So then it really erupted the violence. 00:53:30.955 --> 00:53:31.795 I remember this. 00:53:32.245 --> 00:53:32.395 yeah. 00:53:33.025 --> 00:53:33.865 Cause bombs were going off. 00:53:33.865 --> 00:53:34.855 I was brought up in London. 00:53:34.855 --> 00:53:36.925 Bombs were going off in London at that time as well. 00:53:37.225 --> 00:53:39.415 Terri Brosnan: I remember we're driving, we're driving outta Dodge 00:53:40.525 --> 00:53:42.145 with all of our stuff on our back. 00:53:42.145 --> 00:53:42.535 Rupert Isaacson: Literally. 00:53:42.595 --> 00:53:43.915 So your dad gets this job? 00:53:44.425 --> 00:53:44.545 Yeah. 00:53:44.550 --> 00:53:45.895 In the south hundred. 00:53:45.895 --> 00:53:48.825 150 miles or more away from Yeah, all of this. 00:53:49.435 --> 00:53:51.505 Terri Brosnan: We leave the day that this all erupts. 00:53:51.505 --> 00:53:52.165 We're leaving. 00:53:52.195 --> 00:53:52.375 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:53:52.585 --> 00:53:54.685 Leaving as literally the buildings are burning around you. 00:53:54.685 --> 00:53:55.465 You are driving out. 00:53:56.095 --> 00:53:56.185 It's 00:53:56.185 --> 00:53:58.105 Terri Brosnan: an interesting Yeah, it was an interesting day. 00:53:58.555 --> 00:53:58.885 Good lord. 00:53:58.915 --> 00:54:04.705 and we arrived to a very rural, very bucolic, south County 00:54:04.705 --> 00:54:09.715 temporary stud farm, you know, three or four miles from any town. 00:54:10.105 --> 00:54:14.005 It's all very quiet, and very different lifestyle. 00:54:14.185 --> 00:54:15.325 Very different lifestyle. 00:54:15.835 --> 00:54:17.425 Rupert Isaacson: And that's where your horse career really took 00:54:17.430 --> 00:54:17.635 Terri Brosnan: off. 00:54:18.115 --> 00:54:19.015 Yeah, absolutely. 00:54:19.020 --> 00:54:23.905 I had the most amazing luxury of these fun, fantastic people 00:54:24.085 --> 00:54:28.795 who had stunning horse knowledge and who wanted to pass it on. 00:54:29.365 --> 00:54:31.135 and this was the crim Carol family. 00:54:31.165 --> 00:54:35.245 Amazing family in temporary, me under their wing and taught me everything. 00:54:35.245 --> 00:54:35.575 I know. 00:54:36.085 --> 00:54:37.135 They were incredible. 00:54:37.915 --> 00:54:39.110 and I was like a little sponge. 00:54:39.140 --> 00:54:41.090 I just couldn't wait to learn more and more and more. 00:54:41.780 --> 00:54:44.540 and, yeah, it was an amazing education. 00:54:45.890 --> 00:54:46.580 So 00:54:46.580 --> 00:54:52.430 Rupert Isaacson: you then grow up and go through your adolescence, become, get into 00:54:52.435 --> 00:54:56.980 the horse world, become a professional, , something is intriguing me here though. 00:54:57.790 --> 00:54:58.180 Okay. 00:54:58.180 --> 00:55:03.910 We've talked about your, your background with conflict and looking for resolution 00:55:03.910 --> 00:55:07.930 within conflict, and perhaps that being something of an instinct, because you 00:55:07.930 --> 00:55:14.140 would've, as a kid, been having to negotiate that whole system of in school, 00:55:14.140 --> 00:55:18.820 in the shops in family while all this stuff was going on in Northern Ireland. 00:55:19.330 --> 00:55:21.670 then suddenly you find yourself in horse paradise. 00:55:22.660 --> 00:55:22.661 Yes. 00:55:22.930 --> 00:55:29.025 but something else that I'm dictator, detecting rather down in, in what you've 00:55:29.025 --> 00:55:35.475 been doing within the equine assisted world is there's a system to it. 00:55:35.480 --> 00:55:41.925 Like you, you identified a problem which was fragmentation, factionalism 00:55:41.955 --> 00:55:47.205 people from one area of therapeutic writing saying, oh, there's not 00:55:47.205 --> 00:55:48.105 so good to the other people. 00:55:48.255 --> 00:55:52.305 Which I guess if you're coming out of the troubles in Northern Ireland, if you can 00:55:52.305 --> 00:55:55.635 put it in perspective and say, well, yeah, at least you're not planting a century 00:55:55.635 --> 00:55:57.015 bombs in each other, in each other's. 00:55:57.015 --> 00:55:57.075 Yeah. 00:55:57.080 --> 00:55:58.785 This is small potatoes, guys. 00:55:58.785 --> 00:56:00.045 You get over yourself. 00:56:00.255 --> 00:56:00.465 Right. 00:56:00.885 --> 00:56:03.585 I get, I mean, you useful, a useful perspective to come from. 00:56:03.915 --> 00:56:07.935 and then, but this thing about, you know, looking for the system of, you know, 00:56:07.940 --> 00:56:13.185 lunging in hand long reigning to, and play to get the, keep the horses happy. 00:56:13.245 --> 00:56:13.425 Yeah. 00:56:13.515 --> 00:56:14.985 Muscled and supple and. 00:56:15.720 --> 00:56:19.980 And then looking for how to incorporate that into the session 00:56:19.980 --> 00:56:21.120 so there's no time conflict. 00:56:21.390 --> 00:56:24.810 And then looking at, you know, how to create these courses with Horse Sport 00:56:24.810 --> 00:56:26.760 Island, this is all very systematic. 00:56:26.970 --> 00:56:29.010 Where does your systems thinking come from? 00:56:30.030 --> 00:56:33.750 Terri Brosnan: Oh, so interestingly, although my dad had this amazing 00:56:33.755 --> 00:56:37.890 idea that I would get to involved in all these horses, he didn't 00:56:37.890 --> 00:56:39.090 want me doing it as a job. 00:56:39.300 --> 00:56:41.670 He was like, you know, there's no money in horses. 00:56:41.670 --> 00:56:43.620 Don't, don't ever work with horses. 00:56:43.620 --> 00:56:44.490 There's no money in it. 00:56:44.790 --> 00:56:46.770 Unless you have a lot of money to start with. 00:56:47.130 --> 00:56:49.110 You're gonna end up with absolutely no money. 00:56:49.115 --> 00:56:51.120 You're not gonna get paid for the work that you do. 00:56:51.810 --> 00:56:54.420 and in lots of ways, he wasn't wrong. 00:56:54.780 --> 00:56:58.680 particularly in Ireland, you know, you, you need to come for money 00:56:58.680 --> 00:57:02.940 in order to have and continue to have horses successfully over time. 00:57:03.450 --> 00:57:06.090 it's something that eats at your money rather than earning you money on, 00:57:06.090 --> 00:57:07.590 unless you're at the very high end. 00:57:08.220 --> 00:57:10.410 And then it kind of produces money for itself. 00:57:11.070 --> 00:57:15.360 so he said to me, look, you know, you're, you have a brain, like a steel trap. 00:57:16.260 --> 00:57:18.240 It just wants to learn new things. 00:57:18.660 --> 00:57:21.210 He said, why don't you go to college and do something useful? 00:57:21.450 --> 00:57:25.350 So I went, and I did, management because why that? 00:57:25.640 --> 00:57:28.230 Oh, you could have done anything very systematic, very logical. 00:57:28.230 --> 00:57:29.610 I have a very logical brain. 00:57:29.610 --> 00:57:32.250 You know me well, Rupert, I love logic. 00:57:32.520 --> 00:57:33.600 I love maths. 00:57:33.660 --> 00:57:35.220 I'm a big maths person. 00:57:35.730 --> 00:57:40.410 and so for me, the appliance of mathematics is structural engineering. 00:57:41.100 --> 00:57:45.660 and really that was what I wanted to know, but I'm, I'm also. 00:57:46.380 --> 00:57:47.550 I'm a problem solver. 00:57:47.550 --> 00:57:49.620 I, I can't just know one thing. 00:57:49.950 --> 00:57:52.650 I have to know how that one thing fits in with the next, 00:57:52.980 --> 00:57:54.330 it's like little cogs and wheels. 00:57:54.335 --> 00:57:56.370 So engineering was a perfect fit for me. 00:57:56.910 --> 00:58:01.500 and so not only engineering, but project management within construction 00:58:01.500 --> 00:58:03.660 was the area I wanted to go for. 00:58:04.140 --> 00:58:06.900 So you had to learn a little bit about architecture, a little bit, lot 00:58:06.900 --> 00:58:11.250 about structural engineering, quantity surveying, finance, economics, maths. 00:58:11.910 --> 00:58:14.850 You know, you had to, you had to have an overview. 00:58:15.060 --> 00:58:16.290 And I love an overview. 00:58:17.370 --> 00:58:18.750 I'm no good on small picture. 00:58:18.755 --> 00:58:19.950 I'm all about the big picture. 00:58:20.550 --> 00:58:22.620 and so that fascinated me. 00:58:22.710 --> 00:58:24.780 and I learned how systems went together. 00:58:25.320 --> 00:58:27.180 I learned how reliances worked. 00:58:27.180 --> 00:58:30.930 You know, if you want something to move along that you've gotta rely on other 00:58:30.930 --> 00:58:32.610 people to come in and help you out. 00:58:33.180 --> 00:58:37.980 the best practices around realizing that everything is 00:58:37.980 --> 00:58:40.620 just a part of a growing wheel. 00:58:41.100 --> 00:58:43.830 So, you know, nobody's gonna be amazing on their own. 00:58:43.830 --> 00:58:49.770 If I send you out to build a bridge, you know, over a large river and you're one 00:58:49.775 --> 00:58:53.670 man, no matter what idea you have, you're not gonna be able to make that work. 00:58:54.330 --> 00:58:57.540 You might be, but it's gonna take you an awful long time. 00:58:58.140 --> 00:59:02.970 and so I love the fact that all of these different skills could come together 00:59:03.900 --> 00:59:05.850 and make everything work much quicker. 00:59:06.990 --> 00:59:10.170 Yet they kept, you know, they kept professional boundaries. 00:59:10.170 --> 00:59:12.960 They kept, quality control going. 00:59:12.960 --> 00:59:13.980 Huge part of it. 00:59:14.400 --> 00:59:16.920 You know, you can't build a building without making sure that 00:59:16.920 --> 00:59:18.720 everything hits the quality control. 00:59:19.530 --> 00:59:24.120 and all those aspects were respected and valued on site. 00:59:24.150 --> 00:59:26.520 And I loved working in that direct, in that way. 00:59:27.120 --> 00:59:31.800 that the T boy was more important sometimes than the chief engineer, 00:59:32.370 --> 00:59:36.300 you know, cuz you can only feed an army on its stomach, like, you know. 00:59:36.300 --> 00:59:41.820 So it was really important that everybody had their role and it was valued. 00:59:42.900 --> 00:59:47.340 And I think it's something that I really value in my team as well. 00:59:47.760 --> 00:59:53.070 you know, when I have an amazing team where I work, and, and they would be an 00:59:53.075 --> 00:59:59.610 extraordinarily amazing rider and riding instructor in David Moul, but on the 00:59:59.610 --> 01:00:06.330 other end you have Lucy who is just this incredible horse, woman and a brilliant 01:00:06.330 --> 01:00:13.770 educator, like an extraordinary educator, and person extraordinarily brilliant 01:00:13.770 --> 01:00:15.660 and talented at working with children. 01:00:16.200 --> 01:00:18.780 And everybody brings their strengths and weaknesses to the team. 01:00:18.780 --> 01:00:20.850 And nobody has to do everything. 01:00:21.570 --> 01:00:25.800 It doesn't matter if I'm not the best rider or I'm not the best horse 01:00:25.800 --> 01:00:27.990 person, or I'm not the best lunger. 01:00:28.350 --> 01:00:30.090 We have those skills within the team. 01:00:30.095 --> 01:00:31.020 So it doesn't really matter. 01:00:31.020 --> 01:00:31.380 We can. 01:00:31.725 --> 01:00:33.555 Pick and choose where it works best. 01:00:34.245 --> 01:00:35.865 but I think that's my system's 01:00:36.275 --> 01:00:36.625 Rupert Isaacson: brain. 01:00:37.125 --> 01:00:39.925 Did you got a chance to put this into practice, I presume? 01:00:39.925 --> 01:00:42.905 Did you go out and work on building sites and, and Yeah, I did build 01:00:43.065 --> 01:00:43.625 Terri Brosnan: projects. 01:00:44.225 --> 01:00:46.525 I was involved in the building of a, a bridge over the 01:00:46.525 --> 01:00:48.595 rivers Laney in hy in Wexford. 01:00:49.015 --> 01:00:53.215 so this was one of the last ever, I love this, this, this work. 01:00:53.485 --> 01:00:56.965 It was one of the last ever cast in situ do bridges, which meant that 01:00:56.970 --> 01:00:58.555 we poured the concrete every day. 01:00:58.555 --> 01:01:02.335 We didn't, didn't just bring in, pieces that had been precast 01:01:02.335 --> 01:01:04.135 elsewhere and went together like Lego. 01:01:04.735 --> 01:01:07.375 we actually had to do a huge amount of problem solving on site. 01:01:07.735 --> 01:01:11.995 and we had to actually pour the concrete and deal with this 01:01:11.995 --> 01:01:14.665 active substance on a daily basis. 01:01:14.665 --> 01:01:15.685 It was fascinating. 01:01:15.715 --> 01:01:16.225 And you only have 01:01:16.225 --> 01:01:17.305 Rupert Isaacson: one chance to get it right. 01:01:17.785 --> 01:01:18.325 Absolutely. 01:01:18.325 --> 01:01:19.705 And the whole county is watching 01:01:21.325 --> 01:01:25.495 Terri Brosnan: every, everybody on site that day and every, the whole town is 01:01:25.495 --> 01:01:27.025 watching, so you don't get it wrong. 01:01:27.325 --> 01:01:27.655 Yeah. 01:01:28.385 --> 01:01:28.675 Yeah. 01:01:28.675 --> 01:01:28.995 That's 01:01:28.995 --> 01:01:29.115 Rupert Isaacson: great. 01:01:29.115 --> 01:01:33.540 okay, so then how did you then, you, you seem to have moved away from horses there. 01:01:34.200 --> 01:01:35.730 Did you keep horses going as a parallel 01:01:35.730 --> 01:01:36.090 Terri Brosnan: career? 01:01:37.080 --> 01:01:43.140 Yeah, I, I, I, I was trying to move away and go and have this career, in 01:01:43.140 --> 01:01:46.320 engineering and I kept being dragged back. 01:01:46.770 --> 01:01:47.310 so I. 01:01:47.940 --> 01:01:49.650 I, I, I thought, you know, I miss horses. 01:01:49.650 --> 01:01:53.190 I might like to ride occasionally at a weekend. 01:01:54.570 --> 01:01:54.940 That is a hobby. 01:01:55.500 --> 01:01:56.730 I know you're laughing now. 01:01:57.000 --> 01:02:00.660 And I, I went, literally went, rang a riding school and I said, do you, do you 01:02:00.665 --> 01:02:03.330 have a ride out on a, on a Sunday morning? 01:02:03.750 --> 01:02:05.850 and they were like, yeah, do you have much experience? 01:02:05.850 --> 01:02:09.570 And I said, oh, a little bit, you know, and said, what kind of experience? 01:02:09.570 --> 01:02:11.940 Well, I used to teach, but I, I haven't done it in a while. 01:02:11.940 --> 01:02:15.360 And, and they were like, oh, well, do you wanna come up 01:02:15.360 --> 01:02:17.100 and, and, and stay for a bit? 01:02:17.730 --> 01:02:20.640 so I arrived up on the Sunday morning at about 10 o'clock and left 01:02:20.645 --> 01:02:22.290 there like nine o'clock that night. 01:02:22.290 --> 01:02:24.595 And, I was immediately hooked back in. 01:02:24.685 --> 01:02:27.565 Within weeks I was leaving my job and going back to horses. 01:02:28.620 --> 01:02:32.515 So, so my dad's plans went astray and I went back to working with horses. 01:02:32.665 --> 01:02:32.875 And you 01:02:32.880 --> 01:02:35.365 Rupert Isaacson: went into the sport horse industry at that point, I presume. 01:02:35.515 --> 01:02:36.235 What, what, what did. 01:02:37.660 --> 01:02:39.580 Terri Brosnan: Mostly it was riding schools actually. 01:02:39.610 --> 01:02:44.020 and teaching riding, riding out, taking trekking in the Phoenix Park 01:02:44.020 --> 01:02:49.120 in Dublin, which is this amazing huge park, where, you know, it's beautiful. 01:02:49.120 --> 01:02:55.300 On a sunny day, you ride out onto this 15 acre field with people behind you. 01:02:55.600 --> 01:02:57.490 There are deer in the background. 01:02:57.490 --> 01:03:02.110 It's all very lovely until you're there in September and the deer are 01:03:02.110 --> 01:03:06.340 rotting, in the little gap that you have to go out into this 15 acres where 01:03:06.340 --> 01:03:10.150 you exercise your horses and it all becomes a little bit more problematic. 01:03:11.710 --> 01:03:13.390 And you learn a lot in those days. 01:03:13.720 --> 01:03:19.030 and you've to bring new horses on you, you know, you're having to risk assess 01:03:19.420 --> 01:03:21.580 people who've never been on horses before. 01:03:22.270 --> 01:03:24.730 Japanese tourists were an experience for me. 01:03:25.030 --> 01:03:25.210 Mm-hmm. 01:03:25.455 --> 01:03:26.925 we, we had a group of Japanese tourists. 01:03:26.925 --> 01:03:29.865 None of them ever held a re while they were out the entire time. 01:03:31.815 --> 01:03:34.575 We relied on the goodness and kindness of our horses who were amazing. 01:03:35.055 --> 01:03:40.275 but those kind of experiences show you where the gaps are, particularly if you 01:03:40.275 --> 01:03:44.595 have a brain like mine that loves to find out where, where, where the gaps are, 01:03:45.045 --> 01:03:49.215 what, what, what went wrong, and why, and how you could redo it a better way. 01:03:49.275 --> 01:03:49.605 How did you 01:03:49.605 --> 01:03:52.185 Rupert Isaacson: make it safe for these people who'd never been on horses to 01:03:52.185 --> 01:03:53.835 go out among all the rutting deer? 01:03:54.390 --> 01:03:57.420 Terri Brosnan: So, yeah, interestingly, and, and, and I didn't 01:03:57.420 --> 01:04:02.550 know as much as I do now, but our horses were really intelligent. 01:04:02.550 --> 01:04:04.260 Really, they trusted us. 01:04:04.440 --> 01:04:06.180 We worked with them day in, day out. 01:04:06.185 --> 01:04:09.120 So they trusted the people who worked on the ground with them. 01:04:10.050 --> 01:04:13.950 And we, you know, we schooled them out on the, in the Phoenix Park 01:04:13.950 --> 01:04:17.280 when we weren't taking tres, and they would follow nose to tail. 01:04:17.490 --> 01:04:19.440 They knew not to pass the lead rider. 01:04:20.040 --> 01:04:25.110 or they'd get growled up by the lead rider and they would stay behind us. 01:04:25.110 --> 01:04:29.400 They were incredibly well trained, without having a huge amount of training. 01:04:30.150 --> 01:04:30.300 Right. 01:04:30.305 --> 01:04:33.630 And they incredibly well intentioned horses 01:04:33.990 --> 01:04:34.470 Rupert Isaacson: actually. 01:04:34.920 --> 01:04:37.380 No, but you said, okay, this is effectively trekking. 01:04:37.380 --> 01:04:37.440 Yeah. 01:04:37.950 --> 01:04:41.610 But I know, I know for a fact that you, you said for example, that you 01:04:41.910 --> 01:04:44.310 grew up with the Kreme Carroll family. 01:04:44.370 --> 01:04:45.240 Yeah, yeah. 01:04:45.240 --> 01:04:46.910 They're they're an iconic Yeah. 01:04:47.340 --> 01:04:48.810 Family in the Irish horse world. 01:04:48.810 --> 01:04:52.440 So they, they must have taught you way beyond this. 01:04:52.740 --> 01:04:53.310 Absolutely. 01:04:53.340 --> 01:04:55.110 What was the education you went through with them? 01:04:55.710 --> 01:04:59.580 Terri Brosnan: So, very classical, who would've taught me most, was, would've 01:04:59.580 --> 01:05:04.800 been I think the first I in Ireland, BHS I, which is the full instructor 01:05:04.800 --> 01:05:06.870 level of the BHS exams British Sure. 01:05:06.875 --> 01:05:07.830 Society exams. 01:05:08.550 --> 01:05:17.400 and we were just really lucky to not only have that family, but again, they were 01:05:17.400 --> 01:05:19.950 amazing women, who wanted to learn more. 01:05:20.265 --> 01:05:24.015 And Michelin was never happy with, just that's the way it is. 01:05:24.015 --> 01:05:25.905 She wanted to know why all the time. 01:05:25.905 --> 01:05:28.995 So if she didn't know, if it was something she didn't know and she 01:05:28.995 --> 01:05:34.065 couldn't teach me, she would then look outside and she would go and learn it. 01:05:34.065 --> 01:05:38.955 So she did a lot of classical dress with, a Dutch rider living in Ireland 01:05:38.955 --> 01:05:41.025 and around Kilkenny Carmel at the time. 01:05:41.505 --> 01:05:43.965 van Dvar was based there. 01:05:44.445 --> 01:05:46.665 and, the Lum family were down the road. 01:05:47.265 --> 01:05:48.345 and she worked with them. 01:05:48.525 --> 01:05:50.365 Tell us about them who were there. 01:05:50.425 --> 01:05:54.305 well, William Lum is the, the person most people would associate, with them. 01:05:54.305 --> 01:05:58.025 Now William is the one of the sons, his dad was an amazing horseman. 01:05:58.505 --> 01:06:02.645 They were Dutch family living again outside of, Tom Allen Re, 01:06:03.095 --> 01:06:05.645 and fantastic horse knowledge. 01:06:05.705 --> 01:06:07.835 Rupert Isaacson: What discipline were they, were they in? 01:06:07.835 --> 01:06:08.765 Mostly dressage 01:06:08.770 --> 01:06:09.515 Terri Brosnan: and show jumping. 01:06:09.695 --> 01:06:09.985 Okay. 01:06:10.385 --> 01:06:16.295 but, but you know, really well-rounded ac I think a lot of the people I was lucky 01:06:16.295 --> 01:06:23.915 enough to come across at that stage, started off as three day Advers, knew 01:06:23.920 --> 01:06:29.435 that the whole, picture of your horse depended on, you know, you wanted to 01:06:29.435 --> 01:06:30.605 have a horse who could do everything. 01:06:31.285 --> 01:06:31.985 And who was fit, 01:06:31.990 --> 01:06:32.465 Rupert Isaacson: I guess. 01:06:32.555 --> 01:06:33.545 Terri Brosnan: Yeah, absolutely. 01:06:33.665 --> 01:06:36.665 and so those were the days of eventing, did roads and tracks. 01:06:36.665 --> 01:06:37.055 Mm-hmm. 01:06:37.085 --> 01:06:40.475 So, you know, you did, you did steeplechase roads and tracks, 01:06:40.475 --> 01:06:42.215 you also did cross country. 01:06:42.395 --> 01:06:47.375 You did dress out and your horse had to be supple, collectible, expandable, 01:06:47.825 --> 01:06:53.615 jump, do everything speed up, really go fast, come back, you know, so they 01:06:53.615 --> 01:06:55.835 trained their horses for that work. 01:06:56.975 --> 01:06:59.075 and they didn't want to just train, show jumpers. 01:06:59.105 --> 01:07:02.495 I think there wasn't a market for pure show jumpers at that stage. 01:07:02.615 --> 01:07:02.675 Mm. 01:07:02.675 --> 01:07:03.095 In Ireland. 01:07:03.100 --> 01:07:03.695 Definitely. 01:07:04.025 --> 01:07:08.855 So they had to produce these really well-rounded horses that would do whatever 01:07:08.855 --> 01:07:10.925 the market demanded them to, to do. 01:07:11.045 --> 01:07:11.105 Mm. 01:07:11.435 --> 01:07:14.585 So we learned everything so versatility, basically. 01:07:14.795 --> 01:07:15.485 Absolutely. 01:07:15.490 --> 01:07:15.875 Yeah. 01:07:16.085 --> 01:07:20.465 I mean, we were looking at that time at Irish draft horses and Irish sport 01:07:20.470 --> 01:07:24.035 horses, which came from the idea of having a horse that would drive you to mass. 01:07:24.635 --> 01:07:29.985 You could, you know, ride, , afterwards and it was, you 01:07:29.985 --> 01:07:31.065 know, it would also plow your 01:07:31.065 --> 01:07:34.275 Rupert Isaacson: fields and then you go hunting on it at, on a Saturday. 01:07:34.485 --> 01:07:35.145 Absolutely. 01:07:35.145 --> 01:07:35.495 Right. 01:07:35.500 --> 01:07:35.745 Yeah. 01:07:35.750 --> 01:07:36.415 Up all the big banks. 01:07:36.655 --> 01:07:36.855 Absolutely. 01:07:36.925 --> 01:07:37.215 Terri Brosnan: Yeah. 01:07:37.645 --> 01:07:37.935 Yeah. 01:07:38.415 --> 01:07:42.345 It had to do everything and that, that ethos permeated the entire 01:07:42.345 --> 01:07:44.355 equine industry here in Ireland. 01:07:44.685 --> 01:07:44.925 Mm-hmm. 01:07:45.105 --> 01:07:49.695 Was don't specialize, generalize, we're too small to specialize. 01:07:49.695 --> 01:07:50.265 Mm-hmm. 01:07:51.305 --> 01:07:53.535 You know, so we need to produce these horses that can do 01:07:53.535 --> 01:07:53.985 Rupert Isaacson: everything. 01:07:54.285 --> 01:07:58.095 So now let's just jump ahead to Child Vision, where you are now. 01:07:58.575 --> 01:08:01.605 fitness is a really interesting thing because o obviously, you know, for many of 01:08:01.605 --> 01:08:03.285 us, we'd say, okay, well that's hill work. 01:08:03.285 --> 01:08:06.910 Or that's, you know, a lot of, trail riding at the trot. 01:08:06.910 --> 01:08:10.510 You know, get your horses fit, get them hard fit in the tendons as well. 01:08:10.840 --> 01:08:11.630 Da da da da da. 01:08:12.190 --> 01:08:14.200 Well, you can't really do that where you are. 01:08:14.200 --> 01:08:16.600 You're, it's just for li No, we have no room, no. 01:08:17.080 --> 01:08:21.310 For listeners who, dunno where she's, you think Drumcondra in, in Dublin. 01:08:21.315 --> 01:08:25.960 It's not greenfields and leprechauns if, or there might be leprechauns. 01:08:25.965 --> 01:08:27.880 No, but they're living in, in tower blocks. 01:08:27.880 --> 01:08:29.530 It's Sydney Center, right? 01:08:29.530 --> 01:08:33.580 It's, it's, it's the city center of a, of a large European city with 01:08:34.060 --> 01:08:35.320 a couple of million people in it. 01:08:35.650 --> 01:08:36.130 So, 01:08:36.130 --> 01:08:40.210 Terri Brosnan: and it's, it's not the Hyde Park end of a city center. 01:08:40.210 --> 01:08:40.300 Right. 01:08:40.600 --> 01:08:43.270 It's not the Shali end of the city center. 01:08:43.300 --> 01:08:46.660 No, it is in the real core. 01:08:46.870 --> 01:08:47.110 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 01:08:47.380 --> 01:08:49.900 It's not the Phoenix Park that she was talking about. 01:08:49.900 --> 01:08:50.110 Yeah. 01:08:50.110 --> 01:08:51.970 It's, it's no, like I said, if there's leprechauns, they're 01:08:51.970 --> 01:08:52.720 living in tower blocks. 01:08:53.440 --> 01:08:54.130 Absolutely. 01:08:54.160 --> 01:08:55.750 How are you keeping your horses fit there? 01:08:58.150 --> 01:08:59.440 Terri Brosnan: We're, we're working them. 01:08:59.440 --> 01:09:01.360 We're lunging them, we're riding them. 01:09:01.450 --> 01:09:03.880 We are we working them in hand and long reigning them. 01:09:04.330 --> 01:09:05.620 We don't have the space. 01:09:05.650 --> 01:09:08.440 Everything has to be done on a micro basis. 01:09:08.620 --> 01:09:08.650 Mm. 01:09:09.250 --> 01:09:10.600 You know, so you've gotta be 01:09:10.600 --> 01:09:10.690 Rupert Isaacson: free. 01:09:10.690 --> 01:09:11.980 So they're better in the gym 01:09:11.980 --> 01:09:12.550 Terri Brosnan: the whole time. 01:09:13.060 --> 01:09:13.810 Absolutely. 01:09:14.440 --> 01:09:16.900 You've gotta find the smallest amount of space that you 01:09:16.900 --> 01:09:18.160 can do the most amount with. 01:09:18.925 --> 01:09:21.595 So we don't even have, you know, we don't have a gallop track. 01:09:21.595 --> 01:09:22.495 We don't have, yeah. 01:09:22.525 --> 01:09:24.355 We've had to make, do amend. 01:09:24.565 --> 01:09:28.255 I recently had a visit from, a college in Northern Ireland coming down to 01:09:28.260 --> 01:09:33.115 see what we were doing, and they said, when we talk to you and you tell us 01:09:33.115 --> 01:09:37.495 about what you do, it, it, we thought we were coming to this huge place. 01:09:37.495 --> 01:09:39.715 And you, you, it's so tiny. 01:09:39.720 --> 01:09:40.045 It was like, 01:09:40.045 --> 01:09:40.765 Rupert Isaacson: yeah, it's really tiny. 01:09:40.825 --> 01:09:42.505 Yeah, it's really tiny. 01:09:42.865 --> 01:09:46.765 So even within this tiny postage stamp that you've got, I know that you have 01:09:46.770 --> 01:09:49.015 a trail around a sports field as well. 01:09:49.105 --> 01:09:49.345 Yeah. 01:09:49.645 --> 01:09:52.316 which you've gotta share with the rugby players and the Yes, we do. 01:09:53.395 --> 01:09:55.465 but honors today, yeah. 01:09:55.465 --> 01:09:58.825 I've seen your horses and they are muscled and magnificent. 01:09:59.695 --> 01:10:05.695 So would you be available, for example, if there are, if there are people 01:10:05.695 --> 01:10:09.025 listening saying, well, gosh, you know, I, I don't really have a lot of space. 01:10:09.505 --> 01:10:11.245 what absolutely, what can I do? 01:10:11.245 --> 01:10:14.455 Would you be able to mentor them in, in a program of fitness and 01:10:14.455 --> 01:10:18.565 lunging and, and that sort of thing that you can use a small space 01:10:18.565 --> 01:10:18.625 Terri Brosnan: for? 01:10:19.785 --> 01:10:24.535 I, I mean, realistically for, for us, the big key to this 01:10:24.535 --> 01:10:26.935 was the in-hand work that yoga. 01:10:27.055 --> 01:10:31.915 I mean, you know, if you have a bathroom that is only as wide as 01:10:31.915 --> 01:10:36.685 your arms, And as long as your body, you have enough space to do yoga in. 01:10:37.255 --> 01:10:39.475 and, and we would feel the same about the horses. 01:10:39.475 --> 01:10:43.945 So the in-hand work, the suppleness work, that all happens 01:10:44.005 --> 01:10:46.165 in a relatively short space. 01:10:46.645 --> 01:10:50.635 You don't even need a 20 meter circle to do this work in, 01:10:51.355 --> 01:10:52.705 you can do it in the yard. 01:10:53.185 --> 01:10:55.135 you know, up and down between the boxes. 01:10:55.135 --> 01:10:58.015 We can, we can work in a very small space with this. 01:10:58.525 --> 01:11:02.305 and actually sometimes it really helps to work in a small space because it helps 01:11:02.305 --> 01:11:03.835 the horse to have a direction to move in. 01:11:04.345 --> 01:11:07.975 but yeah, all that supple work, it's yoga for horses. 01:11:08.605 --> 01:11:10.435 and so our horses are supple. 01:11:10.675 --> 01:11:12.235 When they're supple, it's easier. 01:11:12.235 --> 01:11:15.985 They're building muscle because they're relaxed. 01:11:16.285 --> 01:11:19.225 There's no tension, there's no stress in the body. 01:11:19.555 --> 01:11:22.555 and they're able to, they're, they're getting, they're feeling better. 01:11:23.455 --> 01:11:27.025 So they're feeling like they can move their shoulders a little bit more. 01:11:27.025 --> 01:11:29.935 They're feeling like they can move their hindquarters a little bit more. 01:11:30.355 --> 01:11:35.185 When they feel like that and you put them on the lunge, they are starting to get 01:11:35.185 --> 01:11:37.075 that hind leg further underneath them. 01:11:37.375 --> 01:11:41.515 They're starting to feel good about themselves the way we do when we 01:11:41.520 --> 01:11:43.675 are more supple and more agile. 01:11:44.245 --> 01:11:45.745 and you get the same response. 01:11:45.775 --> 01:11:49.165 They're more willing to take a leap to go and, and and go that 01:11:49.165 --> 01:11:51.115 extra mile cuz it feels good. 01:11:51.115 --> 01:11:52.465 It doesn't feel hard. 01:11:53.455 --> 01:11:56.005 Rupert Isaacson: How do you avoid, I mean, horses still need to get 01:11:56.005 --> 01:11:57.175 out there and eat grass, you know? 01:11:57.655 --> 01:11:58.285 Sooner or later. 01:11:58.285 --> 01:12:02.725 And I, I remember when I was a kid in London, when, 500 years ago, there 01:12:02.725 --> 01:12:06.595 were actually quite a lot of horses in the city then, rag and bone men. 01:12:06.925 --> 01:12:12.415 the, the, the, all the breweries had drays delivering the barrels of beer pooled 01:12:12.420 --> 01:12:15.175 by magnificent, teams of shy horses. 01:12:15.595 --> 01:12:19.465 They obviously all the police horses, but they're also, like a lot of the 01:12:19.465 --> 01:12:24.085 old cab drivers came from families that had, had ha had, had hackney cabs. 01:12:24.445 --> 01:12:24.685 Yeah. 01:12:24.715 --> 01:12:28.345 and still had a tradition of carriage driving in their spare time and kept their 01:12:28.350 --> 01:12:31.285 horses in muses, you know, urban stables. 01:12:31.465 --> 01:12:31.675 Yeah. 01:12:31.765 --> 01:12:32.505 in the middle of the city. 01:12:32.505 --> 01:12:35.345 So interestingly that, that was how, but they, they, they would 01:12:35.345 --> 01:12:36.845 send their horses out, yeah. 01:12:36.845 --> 01:12:40.445 For grazing a certain amount of time in the summer to the counties around. 01:12:40.715 --> 01:12:43.025 What do you do for your horses for this? 01:12:43.115 --> 01:12:43.405 Well, 01:12:43.415 --> 01:12:45.875 Terri Brosnan: well, were we in the same situation here in, in Dublin when 01:12:45.875 --> 01:12:48.190 I moved, into Dublin from Tip Prairie. 01:12:48.640 --> 01:12:52.840 and actually the horse industry in Dublin was full of those guys who 01:12:53.260 --> 01:12:58.780 were, carriage drivers, dray drivers, and they, they were some of the first 01:12:58.780 --> 01:13:02.500 people that I got to know in the city center, around horses in the city center. 01:13:03.040 --> 01:13:07.120 And so when I had this problem of working in a stables in the middle 01:13:07.120 --> 01:13:12.310 of the city center, no turnout or very limited turnout, I went, what? 01:13:12.430 --> 01:13:14.290 How do I get my horses outta grass? 01:13:14.830 --> 01:13:17.410 and I went back to these guys who, you know, and I said, you 01:13:17.410 --> 01:13:18.880 know, guys, what, what do you do? 01:13:18.880 --> 01:13:19.630 What are you doing? 01:13:20.260 --> 01:13:23.590 And I remembered, one, one particular family, the good family. 01:13:23.680 --> 01:13:27.970 and, and they would always, they were big into their horses, went outta grass. 01:13:28.030 --> 01:13:31.690 The minute they weren't being used, they went outta grass, you know, 01:13:31.720 --> 01:13:35.170 if they weren't interacting with humans, they went out, got downtime, 01:13:35.470 --> 01:13:37.780 got to be horses away from humans. 01:13:38.050 --> 01:13:42.580 And so that was, you know, I I, I spoke to Ben and Val about this, Ben and Val. 01:13:42.580 --> 01:13:42.940 Good. 01:13:43.120 --> 01:13:44.501 And I said, where were they? 01:13:44.501 --> 01:13:45.400 Where can I, who were Ben and Val? 01:13:45.400 --> 01:13:45.550 Good. 01:13:45.940 --> 01:13:48.670 The, these are, these are the guys that I'd met who were carriage 01:13:48.670 --> 01:13:50.320 drivers in Dublin City Center. 01:13:50.380 --> 01:13:50.710 Okay. 01:13:51.100 --> 01:13:52.810 Values used to drive the Guinness carriage. 01:13:53.110 --> 01:13:54.940 Ben used to drive the Lord Mayor's carriage. 01:13:55.150 --> 01:13:57.610 So they were great men to us. 01:13:57.610 --> 01:13:58.570 They were great mentors. 01:13:58.930 --> 01:14:03.040 and so, you know, they said, go to me because that's the place for 01:14:03.040 --> 01:14:04.900 the best grass nearest to Dublin. 01:14:04.930 --> 01:14:06.280 And it's the next county up. 01:14:06.850 --> 01:14:08.080 and the soil is fantastic. 01:14:08.080 --> 01:14:10.450 And that was where they had put their horses. 01:14:11.050 --> 01:14:14.890 and so we went to Ashburn in meth and we rented land. 01:14:15.220 --> 01:14:18.520 It was one of the first things I did when I moved into, working in that 01:14:18.520 --> 01:14:22.840 yard, in television, in Dublin, because they just didn't have enough grass. 01:14:23.410 --> 01:14:23.680 Okay. 01:14:23.680 --> 01:14:29.350 and there was no way I could sit there with these horses and look at them never 01:14:29.350 --> 01:14:31.930 getting out for a really good grass. 01:14:32.050 --> 01:14:34.510 Rupert Isaacson: And how far are these pastures that you rented? 01:14:35.230 --> 01:14:38.320 In county me from drum condra, where in the city center, 01:14:38.740 --> 01:14:40.960 Terri Brosnan: they're about 35 kilometers away. 01:14:41.380 --> 01:14:45.190 so it's a sh you know, it's, it's not even an hour with the Horsebox. 01:14:45.730 --> 01:14:49.450 and so we, we, we take them out as often as we can. 01:14:50.470 --> 01:14:53.080 Rupert Isaacson: Do you have a sort of a pattern to it of rotation? 01:14:53.080 --> 01:14:53.320 Yeah, we, 01:14:53.320 --> 01:14:55.990 Terri Brosnan: I mean, we have two weeks in the summer, two weeks at Christmas. 01:14:55.990 --> 01:14:58.600 We'll go for a week at Easter and a week at Halloween as well. 01:14:58.840 --> 01:15:01.120 Around October, no, September, October time. 01:15:01.780 --> 01:15:06.880 and more if it becomes available, if any horse is not doing well, we stop 01:15:06.885 --> 01:15:08.260 the work and we put them outta grass. 01:15:08.590 --> 01:15:11.860 If they're for any reason, they're not going to be working, 01:15:12.520 --> 01:15:13.720 we put them out to grass. 01:15:14.110 --> 01:15:15.670 so it, it's our default place. 01:15:15.670 --> 01:15:20.050 It's our rest home, it's our downtime if we get a long weekend, and it's 01:15:20.050 --> 01:15:23.320 more than just the Monday off, we might have the Friday off as well. 01:15:23.440 --> 01:15:24.460 Horses go to grass. 01:15:24.700 --> 01:15:24.730 Okay. 01:15:24.790 --> 01:15:27.490 So it's, it's, it, it's where we possibly can. 01:15:27.910 --> 01:15:29.740 and we'll rotate them as well. 01:15:29.740 --> 01:15:34.060 So to give one rest and bring one in so that they're coming in fresh all the time. 01:15:34.390 --> 01:15:37.840 I had a horse out last week, because he just needed some downtime. 01:15:39.010 --> 01:15:41.950 he needed to just lie in the sun and be a horse. 01:15:42.430 --> 01:15:43.720 and he's come back in great form. 01:15:44.410 --> 01:15:47.680 you know, and a week of that is really good. 01:15:48.175 --> 01:15:50.095 It's like ourselves when we go on holidays. 01:15:50.275 --> 01:15:54.985 You don't necessarily need two months holidays cuz you enjoy 01:15:54.985 --> 01:15:58.705 your work, but you do need to get away from it on a regular basis. 01:15:58.735 --> 01:15:58.795 Yeah. 01:15:58.795 --> 01:16:00.925 And you need to know that you can come back into it. 01:16:00.925 --> 01:16:01.495 Lots of short 01:16:01.495 --> 01:16:02.995 Rupert Isaacson: breaks rather than Yeah, absolutely. 01:16:02.995 --> 01:16:03.655 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:16:03.660 --> 01:16:06.385 No, I, I, I, I think that's very, very important. 01:16:06.385 --> 01:16:09.535 You know, I, I've, I've, in the course of the horse boy work, I've 01:16:09.535 --> 01:16:13.765 been lucky enough to work with some people who work in, urban settings. 01:16:13.765 --> 01:16:19.055 Obviously you, a a great go Mandy in, in Amsterdam, who is in a, again, a 01:16:19.055 --> 01:16:22.245 very small patch, other, other places. 01:16:22.245 --> 01:16:26.955 And of course they always battle to find the areas outside of 01:16:26.955 --> 01:16:30.255 the city where they can get to, but all of them prioritized it. 01:16:30.915 --> 01:16:33.555 and it seems to be, as you say, the magic formula. 01:16:34.185 --> 01:16:37.665 obviously you need all that good type of work you were talking about, but Yeah, 01:16:37.670 --> 01:16:40.365 just for, for the brain and the, and the nervous system and the gut, you know, 01:16:40.365 --> 01:16:45.015 just to be able to go out to grass and, as you say, not deal with humans for a bit. 01:16:45.705 --> 01:16:47.415 Well, I, I think until they present themselves at the 01:16:47.415 --> 01:16:48.735 gate and say, no, I'm ready to 01:16:48.740 --> 01:16:49.095 Terri Brosnan: come back. 01:16:49.515 --> 01:16:50.295 Yeah, absolutely. 01:16:50.295 --> 01:16:53.085 We, we, I mean we, we mustn't forget our horses work. 01:16:54.150 --> 01:16:55.590 They are working horses. 01:16:56.130 --> 01:16:57.420 They're not leisure horses. 01:16:57.990 --> 01:16:58.950 They do a job. 01:16:59.370 --> 01:17:01.680 and it's really important that they get downtime. 01:17:01.680 --> 01:17:02.550 Like us. 01:17:02.610 --> 01:17:05.910 They can't, you can't give from an empty cup, and our horses 01:17:05.910 --> 01:17:07.170 can't give from an empty cup. 01:17:07.410 --> 01:17:11.850 So you've gotta have that ethos across the board for your team, for your horses. 01:17:12.090 --> 01:17:13.260 Our horses are our team. 01:17:13.260 --> 01:17:16.230 So as far as our, we were concerned, it was a no-brainer, 01:17:17.310 --> 01:17:17.580 Rupert Isaacson: you know? 01:17:17.850 --> 01:17:21.600 So, so tell us a little bit more about the work you do at Child 01:17:21.600 --> 01:17:23.490 Vision with the visually impaired. 01:17:23.580 --> 01:17:28.200 how is that specific within the equine assisted world? 01:17:28.380 --> 01:17:31.380 I know you're not only working with that population, but it's, 01:17:31.385 --> 01:17:35.190 it's a population that I, that I'm intrigued, by for many reasons. 01:17:35.280 --> 01:17:36.240 Talk, talk us through a 01:17:36.240 --> 01:17:36.630 Terri Brosnan: little bit. 01:17:37.410 --> 01:17:39.180 Oh, this is my, my, my pet subject. 01:17:39.180 --> 01:17:40.590 You might not ever get me off this. 01:17:41.010 --> 01:17:41.160 So 01:17:42.330 --> 01:17:43.590 Rupert Isaacson: grab a bottle of whiskey guys. 01:17:43.595 --> 01:17:43.890 Yeah. 01:17:43.890 --> 01:17:44.250 Terri Brosnan: carries off. 01:17:44.490 --> 01:17:45.270 We'll be back in a while. 01:17:45.440 --> 01:17:45.680 no. 01:17:45.890 --> 01:17:51.680 we have the most amazing setup because we have preschool children with a 01:17:51.680 --> 01:17:56.510 visual impairment coming into our service at, from the age of 18 months. 01:17:57.500 --> 01:17:58.700 And so 18 months. 01:17:58.940 --> 01:18:00.050 18 months, yeah. 01:18:00.050 --> 01:18:00.980 So we can have him up on the horse 01:18:00.980 --> 01:18:01.700 Rupert Isaacson: at 18 months. 01:18:01.940 --> 01:18:02.690 Absolutely, 01:18:02.690 --> 01:18:03.080 Terri Brosnan: yes. 01:18:03.260 --> 01:18:03.290 Okay. 01:18:03.290 --> 01:18:03.980 That's interesting. 01:18:04.340 --> 01:18:09.800 So we can even for a few minutes And, and, and, and remember at that age they're 01:18:09.805 --> 01:18:14.930 physically not able to take a huge amount and it would only be supported riding. 01:18:14.930 --> 01:18:16.850 Rupert Isaacson: So are you riding with them in front of you in 01:18:16.850 --> 01:18:17.240 Terri Brosnan: the saddle? 01:18:17.450 --> 01:18:18.020 Absolutely. 01:18:18.020 --> 01:18:23.450 Back riding and for a few minutes just to help encourage head control, you know, 01:18:23.570 --> 01:18:25.370 body control, all those kind of things. 01:18:25.730 --> 01:18:30.530 we are so lucky to have this population to work with because it's interesting. 01:18:31.340 --> 01:18:36.650 None of the children we see are just visually impaired nowadays. 01:18:36.650 --> 01:18:40.640 Somebody with just a visual impairment is considered very mainstream. 01:18:41.570 --> 01:18:48.200 And so the children and adults that we see have visual impairment and another okay. 01:18:48.205 --> 01:18:49.190 Number of issues. 01:18:49.670 --> 01:18:54.260 So they may have autism, which is the most kind of straightforward group of 01:18:54.260 --> 01:18:56.030 kids that we would see from our services. 01:18:56.480 --> 01:19:00.260 They may have cerebral palsy, they may have a number of syndromes 01:19:00.620 --> 01:19:02.660 associated with premature birth. 01:19:03.050 --> 01:19:06.260 They may have cortical visual impairment where their eyes are 01:19:06.260 --> 01:19:09.530 perfect, but their brain can't process. 01:19:10.040 --> 01:19:12.500 The visual information from the eyes. 01:19:12.740 --> 01:19:17.300 And this is a really interesting one for you, Rupert, because neurologically 01:19:17.660 --> 01:19:22.370 the older part of the brain, not the newer part of the brain, is still 01:19:22.580 --> 01:19:28.160 getting some visual information that high contrasts black and white. 01:19:28.460 --> 01:19:32.870 Even with people with visual impairment, the kinia cells are still sending 01:19:32.870 --> 01:19:38.180 signals across the brain, but not in the visual neural pathways that we 01:19:38.300 --> 01:19:40.550 currently associate with color vision. 01:19:41.210 --> 01:19:41.900 And 01:19:42.020 --> 01:19:45.170 Rupert Isaacson: so how are those, so kinia cells for those, or kin cells 01:19:45.175 --> 01:19:46.500 as we should kin them Kinney cells? 01:19:46.500 --> 01:19:46.660 Yeah. 01:19:46.970 --> 01:19:49.160 For those people that Dunno what those are, those, those are cells, 01:19:49.730 --> 01:19:51.920 produced in the, cerebellum mm-hmm. 01:19:52.160 --> 01:19:56.390 That when you move and problem solve, your brain produces this protein called bdnf, 01:19:56.480 --> 01:19:59.960 brain-derived neurotrophic factor that makes your brain produce more brain cells. 01:19:59.965 --> 01:20:00.020 Yeah. 01:20:00.290 --> 01:20:03.980 And among these brain cells are these things called bikini cells, which govern 01:20:03.980 --> 01:20:07.280 motor skills and social skills and act like an internet within the brain. 01:20:07.790 --> 01:20:11.660 How are those, that's just sort of so people understand what you mean by that. 01:20:11.960 --> 01:20:16.280 But my question is how are those cells, you said those cells 01:20:16.280 --> 01:20:18.920 are picking up and transferring information through the brain. 01:20:18.920 --> 01:20:24.110 That's visual, but it's not being interpreted by the brain as sites vision. 01:20:24.580 --> 01:20:25.250 Absolutely. 01:20:25.250 --> 01:20:28.040 How is, how is the brain interpreting that information? 01:20:28.520 --> 01:20:35.000 Terri Brosnan: So the, the, the motor pathways and the old kind of contrast, 01:20:35.360 --> 01:20:41.570 very basic, In the, in, in the really old part of the brain though, that's still, so 01:20:41.570 --> 01:20:45.380 what we associate with modern sight is all this, you know, rods and cones is color, 01:20:45.380 --> 01:20:50.450 high color, high definition vision that we associate with being fully rec sighted. 01:20:50.900 --> 01:20:55.040 But there's an older vision right in the back, which is still about, you 01:20:55.040 --> 01:20:56.660 know, high contrast, black and white. 01:20:57.350 --> 01:21:01.370 that, that is really closely linked with motor pathways. 01:21:01.790 --> 01:21:06.440 And we're currently looking, we're doing some research at the moment into the 01:21:06.440 --> 01:21:12.530 effect of rapid movement on, vision and orientation because we can move people 01:21:12.560 --> 01:21:16.790 on a horse much faster than they're ever gonna move on their own two feet. 01:21:17.060 --> 01:21:22.280 And it makes them solve problems faster, it increases their thought process 01:21:22.280 --> 01:21:27.830 speed, and it is giving them new ideas so that it's, that's just one of my 01:21:27.835 --> 01:21:31.100 hobby horses on, on the end of, and it's something that we're working on 01:21:31.100 --> 01:21:34.910 at the moment of paper we're working on for Denver, actually for the, vision 01:21:34.910 --> 01:21:37.820 2023 conference in Denver in July. 01:21:38.510 --> 01:21:42.140 But, so there's a lot of, there's a lot of similarities. 01:21:42.410 --> 01:21:45.290 Vision impairment is a sensory processing issue. 01:21:45.610 --> 01:21:49.460 If you're having an issue with your vision, you are having an 01:21:49.460 --> 01:21:50.840 issue with one of your senses. 01:21:51.710 --> 01:21:58.295 So, All of the things that apply for sensory processing issues and autism and 01:21:58.295 --> 01:22:00.605 ADHD all apply for visual impairment. 01:22:01.235 --> 01:22:07.535 and so we've got this amazing crossover, and we've got people with absolutely 01:22:07.535 --> 01:22:13.145 no vision cantering on horses, and they're able to turn, turn the 01:22:13.145 --> 01:22:15.605 corner independently, independently. 01:22:15.815 --> 01:22:17.645 We are not even on lunch line. 01:22:18.185 --> 01:22:20.915 They are riding independently encountering these horses. 01:22:21.455 --> 01:22:26.405 and you know, their vision would be very, very poor in 01:22:26.405 --> 01:22:28.115 comparison to the main population. 01:22:28.835 --> 01:22:34.955 they might have some light or you know, some color maybe, but not necessarily the 01:22:34.955 --> 01:22:35.105 Rupert Isaacson: two. 01:22:35.105 --> 01:22:36.845 But they're getting, they're getting down the road with a stick. 01:22:38.105 --> 01:22:39.215 They're, they're sorry, what? 01:22:39.455 --> 01:22:40.115 They're getting down the 01:22:40.115 --> 01:22:40.865 Terri Brosnan: road with a stick. 01:22:41.855 --> 01:22:42.515 Absolutely. 01:22:42.605 --> 01:22:42.905 Yeah. 01:22:43.085 --> 01:22:44.075 They're walking with a cane. 01:22:44.465 --> 01:22:47.375 Rupert Isaacson: So what do you think is allowing these, these people 01:22:47.375 --> 01:22:49.445 to be able to guide their horses? 01:22:50.075 --> 01:22:51.995 So we've, through independently in the 01:22:51.995 --> 01:22:54.785 Terri Brosnan: arena, we've been asking this question actually at 01:22:54.785 --> 01:22:56.195 orientation and mobility conference. 01:22:56.195 --> 01:22:56.255 Yeah. 01:22:56.315 --> 01:22:57.185 Rupert Isaacson: What do they say? 01:22:57.485 --> 01:22:58.055 Have you asked them? 01:22:58.085 --> 01:22:59.945 Terri Brosnan: Well, they've come up with loads of ideas. 01:22:59.950 --> 01:23:03.125 They've come up with this whole idea of echolocation and they've 01:23:03.125 --> 01:23:07.880 come up with the idea of, you know, The feedback from the horse. 01:23:08.180 --> 01:23:12.320 they've, you know, maybe if, if they, they're mapping the arena 01:23:12.350 --> 01:23:14.720 somehow, but these are people who are not on their own feet. 01:23:14.990 --> 01:23:18.140 They're not at the same height they're normally at, they're, you know, 01:23:18.140 --> 01:23:20.120 moving faster than they normally move. 01:23:20.420 --> 01:23:20.510 Right. 01:23:20.510 --> 01:23:26.210 So actually the secret is that this old part of the brain that isn't 01:23:26.480 --> 01:23:32.330 processing vision as we know it, as they move in space, is telling 01:23:32.330 --> 01:23:34.550 them about what's coming up. 01:23:34.610 --> 01:23:40.190 It's giving them a map of the arena or of the space that they're in. 01:23:40.750 --> 01:23:42.890 Rupert Isaacson: So, so they're getting a brain and body map. 01:23:43.340 --> 01:23:43.580 Yes. 01:23:44.270 --> 01:23:46.670 That's extending beyond the horse. 01:23:46.670 --> 01:23:50.600 Because those of you who know what brain and body maps do, let's say 01:23:50.870 --> 01:23:56.600 you're holding a pen, your brain creates the pen as part of your body, or the, 01:23:56.630 --> 01:23:59.810 you're going through a doorway and it creates the hype between your head 01:23:59.815 --> 01:24:01.100 and the doorway as part of your body. 01:24:01.100 --> 01:24:01.850 So you duck Yeah. 01:24:01.850 --> 01:24:02.420 That sort of thing. 01:24:02.810 --> 01:24:07.340 but to, to, to say, to make the whole arena Yes. 01:24:07.400 --> 01:24:08.780 Out of a brain and body map, they 01:24:08.780 --> 01:24:10.520 Terri Brosnan: can map the whole place. 01:24:10.820 --> 01:24:11.450 Do you think that 01:24:11.450 --> 01:24:14.660 Rupert Isaacson: this is therefore like a bit of a superpower that you might get? 01:24:14.665 --> 01:24:14.990 Absolutely. 01:24:15.260 --> 01:24:19.490 If you are visually impaired, because you've gotta overcompensate in another way 01:24:19.940 --> 01:24:21.740 because I, I can't map the whole arena. 01:24:22.640 --> 01:24:24.440 Well, these are my, and I spent my life riding in arenas. 01:24:24.440 --> 01:24:25.190 I don't map, hold on. 01:24:25.490 --> 01:24:26.480 My, my circle's always. 01:24:26.480 --> 01:24:26.720 Shit. 01:24:26.840 --> 01:24:27.730 You know, these are, 01:24:27.820 --> 01:24:30.620 Terri Brosnan: these are called Magnocellular Pathways. 01:24:31.240 --> 01:24:33.890 Rupert Isaacson: Magnocellular Pathways, cellular Pathways 01:24:33.890 --> 01:24:35.390 in Magnocellular Pathways. 01:24:35.390 --> 01:24:36.440 Tell us about these, please. 01:24:37.340 --> 01:24:40.730 Terri Brosnan: I, I, I, I'm currently in my research, mode. 01:24:40.940 --> 01:24:44.390 and I, I have, coming back with more, but I spoke to an ophthalmologist 01:24:44.390 --> 01:24:48.980 today and she said, oh yes, the magnocellular pathways in the brain 01:24:49.040 --> 01:24:51.050 are along the movement pathways. 01:24:51.200 --> 01:24:55.880 They go back into that ancient part of the brain and they're giving an impression 01:24:56.180 --> 01:24:58.010 of what's in front of that person. 01:24:58.340 --> 01:25:03.500 So it's not vision as such, but is an impression of where 01:25:03.500 --> 01:25:05.150 things are in space around them. 01:25:06.050 --> 01:25:06.470 Okay. 01:25:07.130 --> 01:25:08.630 So that's fascinating for me. 01:25:08.660 --> 01:25:08.930 Absolutely. 01:25:09.410 --> 01:25:14.300 but yes, and it's that bdnf, the more you create the bdn f the 01:25:14.305 --> 01:25:17.510 brain-derived neurotrophic factor, the more you grow those brain cells, 01:25:17.990 --> 01:25:19.820 the more information they're getting. 01:25:19.820 --> 01:25:22.610 The more they come across this, their thought processors are 01:25:22.610 --> 01:25:24.560 just getting faster and faster. 01:25:24.560 --> 01:25:28.370 It's like learning to drive a car, because when you get in first you're like, oh, 01:25:28.610 --> 01:25:30.410 everything's coming up on me so quickly. 01:25:31.040 --> 01:25:33.590 And then you're like, oh, faster, faster going on motorways. 01:25:33.620 --> 01:25:34.280 You're fine. 01:25:34.940 --> 01:25:36.650 You know, you get, become used to it. 01:25:36.655 --> 01:25:39.020 You never step back that pace. 01:25:39.410 --> 01:25:42.860 You never unlearn thinking at that speed. 01:25:43.190 --> 01:25:43.280 Mm-hmm. 01:25:43.820 --> 01:25:47.510 So if we can put them on the horse, they learn to think faster. 01:25:47.840 --> 01:25:48.680 Than they have 01:25:48.680 --> 01:25:49.310 Rupert Isaacson: previously. 01:25:49.430 --> 01:25:52.370 So optimal, optimal cognitive function, basically. 01:25:52.460 --> 01:25:53.180 Terri Brosnan: Absolutely. 01:25:53.300 --> 01:25:53.570 Yeah. 01:25:54.020 --> 01:25:54.770 Interesting. 01:25:54.920 --> 01:25:58.940 Horses moving at 24 kilometers an hour at Cantor, it's, they're 01:25:58.940 --> 01:26:02.000 moving at two and a half to three kilometers an hour on their feet. 01:26:02.630 --> 01:26:02.750 Mm. 01:26:02.750 --> 01:26:03.980 This is 10 times the speed. 01:26:04.070 --> 01:26:06.380 Mm, sorry. 01:26:06.380 --> 01:26:06.800 It's just a, 01:26:08.650 --> 01:26:09.620 Rupert Isaacson: it's so fascinating to me. 01:26:09.680 --> 01:26:12.710 What, what, what, what's fascinating to me there too is that, well, 01:26:12.710 --> 01:26:15.860 obviously if it's a car, if it's a machine, it does your bidding. 01:26:16.520 --> 01:26:16.880 Yes. 01:26:17.300 --> 01:26:20.090 A horse, of course, has many variables. 01:26:20.120 --> 01:26:24.950 It's gonna take that corner differently depending on your body weight, depending 01:26:24.950 --> 01:26:28.640 on if it's either a bird over there, depending on if there's the, the, how 01:26:28.640 --> 01:26:31.760 the ground is, any number of factors. 01:26:31.940 --> 01:26:35.690 So you could do 10 circles and each of those circles, presumably, 01:26:35.690 --> 01:26:38.240 if you're visually impaired, could feel very, very different. 01:26:38.930 --> 01:26:43.040 Yet you can map that circle time after time on an animal that is 01:26:43.610 --> 01:26:45.660 reacting itself to that circle. 01:26:45.740 --> 01:26:46.460 To the circle. 01:26:46.700 --> 01:26:47.180 Yes. 01:26:47.270 --> 01:26:48.260 What's going on there? 01:26:48.440 --> 01:26:49.340 Is that more bdf? 01:26:49.550 --> 01:26:50.210 What's, what's that? 01:26:50.330 --> 01:26:52.790 Terri Brosnan: It's, it's, it's something that's still under research 01:26:52.795 --> 01:26:56.360 that we're looking at at the moment, but it's, ah, it's just a joy to look at. 01:26:56.780 --> 01:27:00.915 and what we're we're seeing is that, you know, when somebody is on the back of the 01:27:00.915 --> 01:27:03.495 horse, part of their body is supported. 01:27:03.915 --> 01:27:09.075 So, you know, if you're visually impaired, you spend a lot of your concentration 01:27:09.080 --> 01:27:11.535 on keeping your body upright in space. 01:27:11.535 --> 01:27:12.225 Mm-hmm. 01:27:13.785 --> 01:27:17.415 Just moving one foot in front of the other is a difficult 01:27:17.415 --> 01:27:17.595 Rupert Isaacson: task. 01:27:17.595 --> 01:27:17.685 Right. 01:27:18.705 --> 01:27:21.465 This is on foot, not even on before you even think about a horse. 01:27:21.885 --> 01:27:22.245 Terri Brosnan: No. 01:27:22.635 --> 01:27:26.985 But if you take away some of that concentration, the horse is 01:27:26.985 --> 01:27:29.445 supporting you from the waist down. 01:27:31.035 --> 01:27:34.275 You've got more brain power to think about other things. 01:27:35.985 --> 01:27:36.795 Rupert Isaacson: This makes sense. 01:27:36.795 --> 01:27:39.795 And I guess something that's spraining to mind while you were talking there. 01:27:40.245 --> 01:27:44.235 You know, we all, those of us who ride all sort of aspire to, to 01:27:44.235 --> 01:27:45.855 that center feeling, you know? 01:27:45.855 --> 01:27:45.945 Yes. 01:27:45.945 --> 01:27:49.275 And sometimes we, we really have it where it feels like our, our 01:27:49.305 --> 01:27:51.885 own legs sort of basically become the front legs of the horse. 01:27:51.885 --> 01:27:56.235 And, you know, we're really at that optimal melding 01:27:56.235 --> 01:27:57.495 shapeshifting really, you know? 01:27:57.645 --> 01:27:57.760 yes. 01:27:59.200 --> 01:28:02.230 And of course, one of the ways many of us who teach riding get people to do 01:28:02.230 --> 01:28:03.670 that is by Shark 10, shut their eyes. 01:28:03.670 --> 01:28:03.820 Right. 01:28:03.825 --> 01:28:06.100 You know, go down the long side, take a certain number 01:28:06.100 --> 01:28:07.360 of steps with your eyes shut. 01:28:07.620 --> 01:28:09.250 You always, your feel improves. 01:28:10.150 --> 01:28:14.350 Do you think that if, if these people are riding effectively with 01:28:14.350 --> 01:28:16.030 their eyes shut the whole time? 01:28:17.050 --> 01:28:19.540 Terri Brosnan: Well, one of the things that stops us from realizing 01:28:19.545 --> 01:28:22.840 our dream of being sent to us is that we open our eyes and we look and we 01:28:22.845 --> 01:28:24.610 see that we're not part of the horse. 01:28:24.615 --> 01:28:24.740 Okay. 01:28:25.330 --> 01:28:25.360 Okay. 01:28:26.290 --> 01:28:30.100 You know, so there's, there's that visual aspect of you're sitting and 01:28:30.100 --> 01:28:32.050 suddenly you're moving through space. 01:28:32.230 --> 01:28:36.910 Your body is moving through space elegantly and beautifully, 01:28:37.180 --> 01:28:39.760 and you don't have this visual. 01:28:40.900 --> 01:28:42.760 Signal say it's not all you. 01:28:45.460 --> 01:28:46.000 That's 01:28:46.660 --> 01:28:47.560 Rupert Isaacson: brilliant, Terry. 01:28:47.560 --> 01:28:50.560 That's something I hadn't considered at all. 01:28:51.340 --> 01:28:57.130 so perhaps the visually impaired experience of riding a horse is 01:28:57.430 --> 01:28:59.160 truer to what we're all seeking. 01:29:00.820 --> 01:29:01.021 I hope so. 01:29:01.090 --> 01:29:02.530 The visually, I hope so. 01:29:03.040 --> 01:29:03.610 Terri Brosnan: They love it. 01:29:04.130 --> 01:29:04.750 What what a 01:29:04.810 --> 01:29:08.650 Rupert Isaacson: what a what a joyful it is a joyful thing. 01:29:08.655 --> 01:29:09.190 Concept. 01:29:09.195 --> 01:29:09.690 I mean, fantastic. 01:29:09.695 --> 01:29:11.920 I just feel my heart lifting as you say that. 01:29:12.820 --> 01:29:16.690 Terri Brosnan: So yes, I have the best job now, and we can start 01:29:16.690 --> 01:29:19.660 them from when they're quite small so we can give them this 01:29:19.660 --> 01:29:20.350 Rupert Isaacson: experience. 01:29:20.380 --> 01:29:20.740 Right. 01:29:20.740 --> 01:29:25.750 So yes, if someone starts with this at 18 months and then is doing this from there, 01:29:25.810 --> 01:29:28.870 by the time they're 20, it's just there. 01:29:29.440 --> 01:29:33.580 So, and, and do you really observe a cause I know you've been there seven 01:29:33.585 --> 01:29:37.600 years now, so you've presumably seen some kids go from, you know, through 01:29:37.600 --> 01:29:39.190 that seven years trajectory with you. 01:29:39.310 --> 01:29:39.490 Yeah. 01:29:39.790 --> 01:29:41.920 What have you observed in their cognitive function, 01:29:42.700 --> 01:29:43.300 Terri Brosnan: of that time? 01:29:43.840 --> 01:29:49.930 They are, I mean, so the, the difficulty is because I see all of our children 01:29:49.935 --> 01:29:53.890 as being bright and beautiful and amazing, and, and having their own towns. 01:29:53.890 --> 01:29:58.120 But you do see huge leaps actually in cognitive function, in their ability 01:29:58.120 --> 01:30:03.580 to interact with you in their wanting to interact, follow instructions. 01:30:04.855 --> 01:30:05.515 Concept 01:30:05.515 --> 01:30:08.215 Rupert Isaacson: development in, in their academic life, in the school away from. 01:30:08.455 --> 01:30:09.295 Terri Brosnan: Absolutely. 01:30:09.355 --> 01:30:12.115 so I mean, we would work towards sort, sort of things, 01:30:12.115 --> 01:30:13.915 pattern recognition, academics. 01:30:14.095 --> 01:30:16.285 We're always working towards that end of things. 01:30:16.525 --> 01:30:19.165 So yes, we can, and we do do academics with some of our 01:30:19.165 --> 01:30:20.815 children on the back of the horse. 01:30:20.905 --> 01:30:25.525 but it's all around initially it's often around concept 01:30:25.525 --> 01:30:27.655 development with visual impairment. 01:30:27.835 --> 01:30:31.675 Concept development is even harder than it is for somebody with autism. 01:30:32.335 --> 01:30:34.075 so, you know, what are you sitting on? 01:30:34.675 --> 01:30:35.605 I have no idea. 01:30:35.665 --> 01:30:36.985 I can't see this horse. 01:30:36.985 --> 01:30:38.845 Interesting, interesting. 01:30:38.850 --> 01:30:42.565 So we work on concept development around everything. 01:30:42.625 --> 01:30:46.225 you know, where they are, what the field looks like, how trees 01:30:46.225 --> 01:30:49.825 are, they can feel them, they can touch them, they can reach up. 01:30:50.215 --> 01:30:53.185 yeah, so we work a lot on concept development initially with them. 01:30:53.275 --> 01:30:57.655 And then we work around movement and then onto academics and all 01:30:57.655 --> 01:30:57.745 Rupert Isaacson: that. 01:30:57.745 --> 01:31:00.895 When you're teaching academics, okay, so let's say your concept development 01:31:00.895 --> 01:31:04.495 is good and they're now understanding the environment they're working in, what 01:31:04.495 --> 01:31:07.285 they're on, and the brain is developing. 01:31:07.885 --> 01:31:09.655 Could you give us an example of how you would. 01:31:10.030 --> 01:31:11.970 Do an academic exercise in the saddle. 01:31:12.110 --> 01:31:12.331 So we 01:31:12.640 --> 01:31:15.400 Terri Brosnan: very simple because you know, we, we are a small charity. 01:31:15.400 --> 01:31:17.980 We don't have massive amounts. 01:31:17.980 --> 01:31:20.170 We're not an international charity, say for example. 01:31:20.175 --> 01:31:22.750 So funding is not enormous. 01:31:22.840 --> 01:31:26.410 so we, we have defined really interesting ways of doing things. 01:31:26.830 --> 01:31:30.640 and one of the things we found, her foam dice are an amazing tool. 01:31:31.240 --> 01:31:35.410 and we hide them in our trail, in boxes and we get the children 01:31:35.410 --> 01:31:39.700 to collect them, find them, and then we might throw the dice. 01:31:39.940 --> 01:31:45.190 and the sum of the dice might be the number that of steps that we taught for, 01:31:45.640 --> 01:31:48.220 or it might be a multiple of the number 01:31:48.220 --> 01:31:48.610 Rupert Isaacson: on the dice. 01:31:48.610 --> 01:31:51.940 Oh, so they, they would, they would take the foam dice throw. 01:31:52.120 --> 01:31:54.400 Can they feel, can they feel the, the dots on it? 01:31:54.400 --> 01:31:56.950 Can they feel vi, is it a bit like braille? 01:31:56.950 --> 01:31:58.540 Can they feel the dots of the number? 01:31:58.545 --> 01:31:58.990 We, we have, 01:31:58.990 --> 01:32:00.700 Terri Brosnan: we have wooden ones that have holes Yeah. 01:32:00.700 --> 01:32:03.430 That have holes in so that they can use those visually impaired. 01:32:03.820 --> 01:32:04.120 Okay. 01:32:04.120 --> 01:32:04.510 Can, can use those. 01:32:04.770 --> 01:32:05.350 Rupert Isaacson: But we, yeah. 01:32:05.450 --> 01:32:06.670 So then they would throw it. 01:32:07.330 --> 01:32:07.510 Yeah. 01:32:07.510 --> 01:32:09.340 A number would, they would feel that number. 01:32:10.000 --> 01:32:13.360 Give them up, put the horse into that number of trot steps. 01:32:13.720 --> 01:32:14.470 Yeah, absolutely. 01:32:14.830 --> 01:32:17.680 And that's a sort of cellular way of becoming a, what 01:32:17.680 --> 01:32:18.610 would you then do with that? 01:32:18.610 --> 01:32:20.350 How would you then turn that into a arithmetic? 01:32:21.400 --> 01:32:24.640 Terri Brosnan: So we might say if, if we, if we are doing it in groups, 01:32:24.640 --> 01:32:27.310 there might be two people with five. 01:32:27.610 --> 01:32:30.940 So we've gone for five and we might say, well, we'll add the second 01:32:30.940 --> 01:32:33.130 five steps onto the first five. 01:32:33.820 --> 01:32:36.010 So we might say, right, we're going to talk for. 01:32:36.415 --> 01:32:43.015 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 5 and five more is 10. 01:32:43.285 --> 01:32:45.145 So we might, we might do it that way. 01:32:45.145 --> 01:32:51.355 We might work on getting them to, you know, add the subtract one from another. 01:32:51.355 --> 01:32:55.165 Well, depending on what we're working on that day, we'll make it very physical. 01:32:55.165 --> 01:32:56.635 We'll make it very practical. 01:32:57.235 --> 01:32:58.375 so that, could you, could 01:32:58.375 --> 01:33:00.475 Rupert Isaacson: you take it beyond addition and subtraction? 01:33:00.475 --> 01:33:02.335 Could you take it to multiplication and division? 01:33:02.335 --> 01:33:03.385 Abso Absolutely. 01:33:03.535 --> 01:33:04.225 Terri Brosnan: How would you do that? 01:33:04.230 --> 01:33:04.395 Two times. 01:33:04.395 --> 01:33:04.915 Five is 10. 01:33:05.335 --> 01:33:06.435 Two times five is 10. 01:33:06.435 --> 01:33:07.885 Okay, so we've got two of you. 01:33:08.005 --> 01:33:10.735 So we've had five and five, that's two times five. 01:33:10.740 --> 01:33:10.915 Okay. 01:33:11.125 --> 01:33:14.995 So how are we gonna, and then if we were to take five away from what we 01:33:14.995 --> 01:33:17.035 did, we'd have only gone for trot. 01:33:17.185 --> 01:33:20.035 We'd have only trotted one time for that first five. 01:33:20.575 --> 01:33:25.255 So 10 minus five is five, you know, so we would in, in that way, we 01:33:25.255 --> 01:33:27.025 develop those concepts over time 01:33:27.265 --> 01:33:29.095 Rupert Isaacson: and all of that is being felt through the body 01:33:30.025 --> 01:33:30.895 Terri Brosnan: completely. 01:33:31.195 --> 01:33:32.905 And it's much more motivational. 01:33:33.175 --> 01:33:36.085 They're getting all of that oxytocin, they're getting that lovely 01:33:36.085 --> 01:33:38.455 movement, and they're having fun. 01:33:38.545 --> 01:33:40.015 They're getting proprioceptive feedback. 01:33:40.015 --> 01:33:44.125 They get everything's involved, their vestibular systems activated, because 01:33:44.125 --> 01:33:48.685 they're moving, and, and they're moving in a rapid movement on the back of the 01:33:48.685 --> 01:33:49.075 Rupert Isaacson: horse. 01:33:49.135 --> 01:33:50.755 And they're, what, what you're really doing there. 01:33:50.755 --> 01:33:53.335 What you're really talking about, it seems is applied neuroscience. 01:33:53.725 --> 01:33:54.475 Absolutely. 01:33:54.535 --> 01:33:54.835 Yeah. 01:33:55.435 --> 01:33:55.915 That just happens. 01:33:56.185 --> 01:33:56.515 Enjoyable. 01:33:56.515 --> 01:33:56.815 Four legs. 01:33:56.815 --> 01:33:56.905 This, 01:33:57.225 --> 01:34:01.705 Terri Brosnan: he's applied neuroscience as a systems girl, I need to be 01:34:01.705 --> 01:34:03.055 working with the main computer. 01:34:03.415 --> 01:34:03.715 You know, 01:34:07.315 --> 01:34:08.695 everything else comes from that. 01:34:08.695 --> 01:34:11.485 Let's make that the, the center of where you're gonna work from. 01:34:11.485 --> 01:34:11.815 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:34:12.145 --> 01:34:13.255 It's fascinating. 01:34:13.375 --> 01:34:21.505 if you were giving advice to somebody starting up now in the therapeutic 01:34:21.505 --> 01:34:26.335 riding world, or somebody who was, had been in it for a while, Yeah. 01:34:26.340 --> 01:34:30.565 But was looking for new horizons, you're obviously developing all of this. 01:34:30.565 --> 01:34:30.625 Yeah. 01:34:30.895 --> 01:34:32.215 What would your first advice be? 01:34:34.945 --> 01:34:38.275 Terri Brosnan: My first advice is be professional. 01:34:38.785 --> 01:34:45.385 Think about the best practice that you can achieve within whatever space you're in. 01:34:45.925 --> 01:34:50.635 It doesn't matter if, if you're 50 horses or you've two horses, do 01:34:50.635 --> 01:34:56.935 the very best that you can at every aspect that you can afford to do it. 01:34:58.345 --> 01:35:03.295 So for me, you know, I like to learn about everything. 01:35:03.415 --> 01:35:05.845 I'm, I just like, I love knowledge. 01:35:05.875 --> 01:35:07.255 I, I'm curious. 01:35:07.435 --> 01:35:09.655 I wanna know, am I doing the right thing? 01:35:09.925 --> 01:35:12.145 And if I'm not, is there something better? 01:35:12.550 --> 01:35:13.480 What makes it better? 01:35:13.480 --> 01:35:14.260 Why is it better? 01:35:14.260 --> 01:35:16.420 How can I improve what I'm doing? 01:35:16.930 --> 01:35:22.480 Because we develop as humans and we want to always, there's no point in, isn't 01:35:22.510 --> 01:35:27.520 what they say about failure is doing the same thing, you know, time after time 01:35:27.520 --> 01:35:29.020 and never learning from your mistakes. 01:35:29.050 --> 01:35:29.290 Well, that's 01:35:29.290 --> 01:35:30.700 Rupert Isaacson: insanity actually is what 01:35:32.320 --> 01:35:32.650 Terri Brosnan: True. 01:35:33.580 --> 01:35:37.420 But you know, so for me it's about what can I learn in this situation? 01:35:37.660 --> 01:35:37.750 Mm-hmm. 01:35:37.750 --> 01:35:38.710 Stay curious. 01:35:38.830 --> 01:35:42.970 Always stay curious, and then go and find the mentorship that you need. 01:35:43.240 --> 01:35:43.660 That's, 01:35:45.310 --> 01:35:45.610 Rupert Isaacson: go ahead. 01:35:46.120 --> 01:35:47.170 I didn't want to interrupt you that. 01:35:47.200 --> 01:35:47.410 Yeah. 01:35:47.500 --> 01:35:50.920 Terri Brosnan: So, so, so just never just say, oh, I don't know 01:35:50.920 --> 01:35:53.140 how to get that information. 01:35:53.170 --> 01:35:56.500 Ask the people who are doing it, because if they're anything like 01:35:56.500 --> 01:35:59.170 me, I will happily tell you forever. 01:35:59.530 --> 01:36:02.645 so, you know, just go and ask. 01:36:02.650 --> 01:36:07.325 People really want, if they're doing something well, they 01:36:07.355 --> 01:36:09.065 want to share that information. 01:36:09.215 --> 01:36:11.465 If they're doing something poorly, they'll want to hide it. 01:36:12.155 --> 01:36:15.125 So if, if they're doing something well, they want the world 01:36:15.125 --> 01:36:16.625 to know about it, you know? 01:36:17.015 --> 01:36:20.915 so they will happily tell you, I've never met somebody who does 01:36:20.915 --> 01:36:24.305 a really good job, who's not happy to say, do you wanna learn? 01:36:24.960 --> 01:36:25.180 Mm. 01:36:25.640 --> 01:36:29.930 And it may be you have to spend three months doing it this way, or you spend 01:36:29.930 --> 01:36:32.060 a year doing it this way to learn. 01:36:32.120 --> 01:36:35.660 You give your time or you give your money or whatever it is that makes it work. 01:36:35.930 --> 01:36:39.500 Find the mentorship, go and find the people who can do it. 01:36:39.710 --> 01:36:42.230 Rupert Isaacson: That seems to me the key word about that's run through 01:36:42.230 --> 01:36:44.450 your whole thing here is mentorship. 01:36:44.510 --> 01:36:44.810 Right. 01:36:44.810 --> 01:36:48.650 So, you were mentored by the Kreme Carroll family. 01:36:48.920 --> 01:36:49.010 Mm-hmm. 01:36:49.760 --> 01:36:52.130 you absorbed all that, Yes. 01:36:52.130 --> 01:36:53.480 Good equine practice. 01:36:53.930 --> 01:36:59.510 Then when you were getting into systems stuff, you mm-hmm. 01:36:59.780 --> 01:37:03.110 Went to be mentored in that mechanical engineering. 01:37:03.110 --> 01:37:03.170 Yeah. 01:37:03.350 --> 01:37:08.300 you went, when you got into the therapeutic riding side, you 01:37:08.300 --> 01:37:10.370 went off for mentorship Yeah. 01:37:10.490 --> 01:37:11.180 For some years. 01:37:11.180 --> 01:37:12.860 And then now you offer mentorship. 01:37:13.430 --> 01:37:13.850 Absolutely. 01:37:14.000 --> 01:37:17.630 I think, I think one of the, the problems in the, in the horse world frankly, 01:37:18.290 --> 01:37:29.840 is lack of curiosity and people being afraid to be judged as a beginner. 01:37:30.320 --> 01:37:32.930 Whereas of course, one always is a beginner. 01:37:33.560 --> 01:37:35.330 Whenever one learns a new skillset. 01:37:35.870 --> 01:37:36.050 Yes. 01:37:36.050 --> 01:37:38.570 So therefore, don't go learn a new skillset. 01:37:38.990 --> 01:37:42.920 Just defend forever what you do, rather aggressively and 01:37:42.925 --> 01:37:44.120 be really grumpy about it. 01:37:44.120 --> 01:37:47.060 If anyone suggests any change, And, and yeah. 01:37:47.060 --> 01:37:47.900 The mo, you 01:37:47.900 --> 01:37:48.700 Terri Brosnan: know, absolutely. 01:37:48.800 --> 01:37:51.920 And, and that has traditionally been the mindset here. 01:37:51.920 --> 01:37:57.560 But for me, mentorship doesn't just come from experts. 01:37:57.620 --> 01:38:03.080 And I have had amazing mentors in my life, John Watson, who was a, an Olympic rider. 01:38:03.080 --> 01:38:05.690 I got to work with him when I was a very small child. 01:38:05.870 --> 01:38:07.610 He used to do pony club rallies. 01:38:08.000 --> 01:38:11.000 I mean, you know, but fantastic mentorship. 01:38:11.600 --> 01:38:15.530 but it isn't always these people with this huge knowledge up here. 01:38:16.040 --> 01:38:19.550 I get mentorship every day from my colleagues. 01:38:19.560 --> 01:38:19.780 Mm. 01:38:20.990 --> 01:38:24.080 I get mentorship from the kids that I see. 01:38:24.110 --> 01:38:24.140 Mm. 01:38:25.400 --> 01:38:29.510 If you're curious, you will find mentorship everywhere you go. 01:38:29.720 --> 01:38:30.020 Are you 01:38:30.020 --> 01:38:32.120 Rupert Isaacson: actively asking your children for their feedback? 01:38:32.120 --> 01:38:32.840 What do you think? 01:38:32.840 --> 01:38:33.050 Yes. 01:38:33.080 --> 01:38:34.190 What could we improve? 01:38:34.790 --> 01:38:36.350 What's working, what's not working? 01:38:36.355 --> 01:38:39.410 Rather than ask our parents, shut up and put this, throw this dice 01:38:39.410 --> 01:38:40.370 so that we can do this exercise. 01:38:40.790 --> 01:38:41.030 Terri Brosnan: Yeah. 01:38:41.360 --> 01:38:41.750 No. 01:38:41.750 --> 01:38:43.100 What do you want to do? 01:38:43.100 --> 01:38:44.840 We give them of the autonomy. 01:38:44.840 --> 01:38:49.730 We ask them where they want to go with it, because it's not about us. 01:38:49.880 --> 01:38:53.600 This, this whole thing is not about, it doesn't matter. 01:38:53.780 --> 01:38:58.670 If I go out there every day and it's about me, then nobody else benefits. 01:38:59.450 --> 01:39:03.440 I can't benefit anybody else unless I give, get their feedback, unless 01:39:03.440 --> 01:39:07.100 I ask them how they want to do this. 01:39:07.190 --> 01:39:08.630 Because it's not about me. 01:39:08.960 --> 01:39:12.650 It's not about my experience of equine assisted therapy or I. 01:39:13.355 --> 01:39:18.995 Any interaction with the horse, it's about I ask my horses what they want to do. 01:39:19.805 --> 01:39:26.315 You know, so I, I I need to be not the center of this situation. 01:39:26.405 --> 01:39:29.045 I need to ask what is best for you? 01:39:29.495 --> 01:39:31.145 How am I best serving you? 01:39:31.325 --> 01:39:33.875 If I'm not serving them, I'm not doing my job. 01:39:34.325 --> 01:39:35.915 I am not there to be served. 01:39:37.085 --> 01:39:37.325 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:39:37.325 --> 01:39:41.615 If something's not working, what can I change? 01:39:41.795 --> 01:39:42.245 Yes. 01:39:42.305 --> 01:39:46.145 Rather than absolutely it's the, the fault of that person, or it's the fault of that 01:39:46.145 --> 01:39:46.505 Terri Brosnan: horse. 01:39:46.715 --> 01:39:50.645 It's, no, it's never, it's, we need to change something in the situation. 01:39:50.645 --> 01:39:54.335 It's not something is wrong or somebody has done something wrong. 01:39:54.785 --> 01:39:57.395 It is just, we need a change. 01:39:58.475 --> 01:40:01.025 And people, I, I'm not great with change. 01:40:01.565 --> 01:40:03.125 I'm not always brilliant with change. 01:40:03.485 --> 01:40:07.595 People are great with change, but I've found that change is what works. 01:40:08.075 --> 01:40:12.275 If again, you know, repeating the same mistake over and over again, 01:40:12.665 --> 01:40:14.315 it's, it's no good for anybody. 01:40:14.795 --> 01:40:18.065 So, you know, there are amazing people out there. 01:40:18.485 --> 01:40:22.410 and I'm really lucky in an, I work in an organization where people 01:40:22.415 --> 01:40:27.330 have lots of different skills and I don't have to have their skills. 01:40:27.330 --> 01:40:30.630 I can just go to the people who have them and say, what do I do now? 01:40:31.565 --> 01:40:33.675 Rupert Isaacson: So you're, you're going to occupational therapists, you're 01:40:33.675 --> 01:40:34.935 gonna physical therapists, you're gonna 01:40:35.445 --> 01:40:38.535 Terri Brosnan: speech and language therapists, o and m specialists, 01:40:38.535 --> 01:40:42.885 orientation and mobility specialists, disability specialists, nursing staff. 01:40:43.275 --> 01:40:46.815 We have nursing staff on campus, which is incredible godsend. 01:40:47.175 --> 01:40:50.295 But even in terms of research, I have library staff, I 01:40:50.295 --> 01:40:51.885 have hr, so I'm very lucky. 01:40:52.395 --> 01:40:56.385 I have an unusual situation because all of the things that you would want to 01:40:56.385 --> 01:41:00.225 have as a business, if you're setting this up, I actually have, and I have 01:41:00.225 --> 01:41:04.815 lots of expertise in that in other areas within the building that I work in. 01:41:05.235 --> 01:41:07.245 And I don't have to do all of that. 01:41:07.485 --> 01:41:10.875 And yes, I have run my own yards and had to be, you know, 01:41:10.875 --> 01:41:13.095 chief, washing, bottle cleaner. 01:41:13.095 --> 01:41:13.605 Everybody. 01:41:13.875 --> 01:41:16.665 I, I did all the jobs, you know, where you're, you're mucking out, 01:41:16.670 --> 01:41:19.875 you're answering the phone, you're teaching the lessons, you're pulling 01:41:19.875 --> 01:41:21.855 the mains, you're doing everything. 01:41:22.215 --> 01:41:24.555 I, I, I've, I've done that and of things. 01:41:24.705 --> 01:41:25.965 And it's not joyful. 01:41:26.595 --> 01:41:26.985 Mm-hmm. 01:41:27.465 --> 01:41:32.985 It's not joyful when you, everything comes on, falls on one person. 01:41:32.985 --> 01:41:35.445 It is joyful to work in harmony with others. 01:41:35.865 --> 01:41:37.395 Tribal, whether it's Yeah. 01:41:37.395 --> 01:41:37.905 Tribal. 01:41:38.055 --> 01:41:38.505 Exactly. 01:41:38.505 --> 01:41:39.225 Extended family. 01:41:39.315 --> 01:41:39.555 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:41:39.555 --> 01:41:40.035 Clan. 01:41:40.040 --> 01:41:40.255 Yeah. 01:41:41.535 --> 01:41:42.855 And that's where the joy comes. 01:41:43.575 --> 01:41:44.055 Interesting. 01:41:44.055 --> 01:41:44.235 Yeah. 01:41:44.335 --> 01:41:48.855 I, I think that that's always the central theme here is that if you are, 01:41:50.385 --> 01:41:55.035 if you are not having wellbeing, if the horse is not having wellbeing, how can 01:41:55.035 --> 01:41:56.565 you and the horse transmit wellbeing? 01:41:57.495 --> 01:41:59.955 To some someone else, you, it's not possible, right? 01:41:59.955 --> 01:42:00.495 It's impossible. 01:42:01.545 --> 01:42:07.275 and you're so right that, that the team tribe call it what you will aspect of 01:42:07.275 --> 01:42:11.955 it, brings joy because that's of course how humans are supposed to to be. 01:42:11.960 --> 01:42:17.085 But we know so many people in the horse industry exists in isolation. 01:42:17.145 --> 01:42:18.765 It's just me in my yard doing my thing. 01:42:18.765 --> 01:42:20.175 I don't want any outside interference. 01:42:20.175 --> 01:42:22.305 I don't want, and this is certainly true in the therapeutic 01:42:22.305 --> 01:42:24.075 Terri Brosnan: world, but it's just fear. 01:42:24.165 --> 01:42:25.545 It's just fear. 01:42:26.115 --> 01:42:30.315 We, I think particularly in the horse industry, there's an awful 01:42:30.315 --> 01:42:34.455 lot of cases of, imposter syndrome. 01:42:34.995 --> 01:42:35.085 Mm. 01:42:35.295 --> 01:42:41.055 So we hide what we don't know under, a facade of bluff. 01:42:41.315 --> 01:42:41.535 Mm. 01:42:42.375 --> 01:42:47.590 and, and, and brusqueness rather than saying, actually, can you show me how that 01:42:47.590 --> 01:42:48.130 Rupert Isaacson: works? 01:42:48.400 --> 01:42:48.940 Right. 01:42:49.370 --> 01:42:51.370 No, I, I couldn't agree more. 01:42:51.430 --> 01:42:54.760 and I think it's a sickness within, obviously it's not just the horse world. 01:42:54.760 --> 01:42:55.150 One, one 01:42:55.150 --> 01:42:55.330 Terri Brosnan: part. 01:42:55.330 --> 01:42:56.350 No, it's everywhere. 01:42:56.590 --> 01:42:56.770 No. 01:42:56.860 --> 01:42:58.385 Rupert Isaacson: it's, it's somehow, particularly a 01:42:58.385 --> 01:42:59.465 little bit in the horse world. 01:42:59.525 --> 01:43:03.485 And one of the things I, I find fascinating about you, Terry, is 01:43:03.490 --> 01:43:08.555 that you, you are one of those few people I've run across there who just 01:43:09.965 --> 01:43:11.705 go into this forever student mode. 01:43:12.670 --> 01:43:14.860 because you could say, look, I'm working for this. 01:43:15.505 --> 01:43:18.385 Really cutting edge, organization, child Vision in Dublin. 01:43:18.385 --> 01:43:19.825 We're doing a fantastic job. 01:43:20.005 --> 01:43:22.195 We really know, think, I know that you're getting invited to 01:43:22.195 --> 01:43:23.215 conferences around the world. 01:43:23.425 --> 01:43:24.955 I know you just got back from Warsaw. 01:43:25.195 --> 01:43:28.525 I know you're off to Colorado, as you just said, to present in Denver. 01:43:28.675 --> 01:43:29.125 Denver. 01:43:29.185 --> 01:43:32.815 there's a neuroscience conference coming up, next year in, in Virginia, which 01:43:32.820 --> 01:43:33.985 I know you're gonna be invited to. 01:43:34.405 --> 01:43:41.035 so, you know, you're, you're in demand, so you could rest on those laurels, but 01:43:41.040 --> 01:43:43.255 you don't, you, you still go out and look. 01:43:43.315 --> 01:43:43.525 Yeah, 01:43:45.745 --> 01:43:48.535 Terri Brosnan: so my brain needs input all the time. 01:43:48.535 --> 01:43:53.575 I have that brain that needs constant, you know, it needs to problem solve. 01:43:54.325 --> 01:43:58.705 I need my vestibular problem solving, brain needs input all the 01:43:58.710 --> 01:44:01.375 time, and I love to solve problems. 01:44:01.675 --> 01:44:05.960 a pattern recognition is my, it's my little, it's my 01:44:05.960 --> 01:44:07.460 specialist area of interest. 01:44:08.870 --> 01:44:09.090 So, 01:44:10.190 --> 01:44:12.500 Rupert Isaacson: so tell us, sir, how can people get in contact with you? 01:44:12.500 --> 01:44:14.480 How can they find out more about your work? 01:44:14.960 --> 01:44:17.690 Terri Brosnan: Okay, so I'm, I'm working in child's vision 01:44:17.690 --> 01:44:18.980 in Interim Contra in Dublin. 01:44:18.980 --> 01:44:23.570 And anybody is welcome to drop in Monday to Friday, nine till 01:44:23.575 --> 01:44:26.090 five into our yard and say hello. 01:44:26.570 --> 01:44:27.050 Where they could 01:44:27.050 --> 01:44:29.090 Rupert Isaacson: just public, they could just Google Child 01:44:29.090 --> 01:44:31.430 Vision is one word, absolutely. 01:44:31.880 --> 01:44:32.180 Terri Brosnan: Ie. 01:44:32.960 --> 01:44:34.070 Child Vision, ie. 01:44:34.610 --> 01:44:36.380 And they can rock up on the campus. 01:44:36.380 --> 01:44:40.925 It's open to the public, so, All, all year round and we'll be there. 01:44:41.435 --> 01:44:45.095 so on a very physical level, you can get your ass into television 01:44:45.095 --> 01:44:46.085 and, and we'll be there. 01:44:46.565 --> 01:44:50.355 and on an internet level, you can find me at terri@equigeek.com, 01:44:51.425 --> 01:44:54.755 so E Q U I g e e k.com. 01:44:55.295 --> 01:44:58.530 and or Terry brosnan@childvision.ie. 01:44:58.920 --> 01:45:00.810 Rupert Isaacson: Just repeat those a couple of times so people 01:45:00.810 --> 01:45:02.070 run off and get their pens. 01:45:02.370 --> 01:45:02.940 Just yeah. 01:45:02.940 --> 01:45:05.880 So it's say them slowly so people can write them 01:45:05.880 --> 01:45:06.090 Terri Brosnan: down. 01:45:06.690 --> 01:45:09.330 The Irish disease of speaking really quickly. 01:45:09.750 --> 01:45:12.920 so it's Terry Brosnan, T e r, yeah. 01:45:13.520 --> 01:45:19.070 R i b r o s n a n at Child Vision, ie. 01:45:19.070 --> 01:45:24.650 That's c h i l d V I S I O n, ie. 01:45:25.250 --> 01:45:34.430 or Terry, t e r r qui geek e q ui g e e k.com. 01:45:35.510 --> 01:45:42.710 Alternatively, you will be able to get me at Terry Horse, ie. 01:45:43.460 --> 01:45:44.750 in the next couple of weeks. 01:45:44.900 --> 01:45:44.930 Okay. 01:45:45.260 --> 01:45:49.010 yeah, so I will answer emails if you send them through to me, I'll, 01:45:49.100 --> 01:45:52.700 I answer any questions or I will put you in touch with somebody who 01:45:52.700 --> 01:45:54.830 knows more about this than I do. 01:45:55.790 --> 01:45:58.520 Rupert Isaacson: and specifically for people who are interested in, in this, 01:45:58.580 --> 01:46:03.900 course that you're doing, for equine professionals wanting to look at the, 01:46:04.010 --> 01:46:07.190 the various ways of getting involved in a therapeutic world professionally. 01:46:07.190 --> 01:46:07.250 Yeah. 01:46:07.640 --> 01:46:09.890 I could imagine that this goes beyond Ireland. 01:46:09.950 --> 01:46:14.240 that if people from other countries wanted to look at the model that 01:46:14.240 --> 01:46:18.740 you've produced and look at some doing something similar, can they get with 01:46:18.740 --> 01:46:19.760 you and talk with you about that? 01:46:19.765 --> 01:46:21.530 Can they book themselves on one of your courses? 01:46:22.160 --> 01:46:22.850 Terri Brosnan: Absolutely. 01:46:23.120 --> 01:46:27.440 we will have a course coming up at the very end of August, beginning of 01:46:27.440 --> 01:46:30.680 September, in Dublin in Child Vision. 01:46:31.190 --> 01:46:33.650 there would be a four day therapeutic writing coaching 01:46:33.650 --> 01:46:38.630 course, on the last week of August into the first week in September. 01:46:39.260 --> 01:46:43.550 it's the Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday of that week, and we, there 01:46:43.550 --> 01:46:49.790 will be one in Northern Ireland in cre, in Enki, in the college, the 01:46:49.790 --> 01:46:53.390 agricultural and equine college in Enki. 01:46:54.545 --> 01:46:57.185 Sometime over Halloween holidays. 01:46:57.185 --> 01:47:00.455 I haven't got exact dates yet, but there's, there's definitely one coming 01:47:00.455 --> 01:47:02.045 up in Northern Ireland for that date. 01:47:02.975 --> 01:47:03.265 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:47:03.305 --> 01:47:06.485 And obviously I'm gonna say because the internet is timeless, 01:47:06.695 --> 01:47:08.585 this is 2023 we're talking about. 01:47:08.855 --> 01:47:08.945 Yeah. 01:47:08.975 --> 01:47:14.225 if you're listening to this, in later timeframes, just contact Terry for 01:47:14.625 --> 01:47:17.065 Terri Brosnan: absolutely when there's gonna be more and we'll continue to 01:47:17.065 --> 01:47:21.995 run these courses, for as long as Horse Board Island will continue to fund us. 01:47:23.345 --> 01:47:23.915 Rupert Isaacson: Fantastic. 01:47:24.215 --> 01:47:29.705 well, listen, Terry, it's been an absolute treat to check in with you. 01:47:30.005 --> 01:47:34.325 the work you're doing is stalking, as we say in Okay. 01:47:35.195 --> 01:47:44.375 and it gives me great gladness because as a dad of an autistic child who 01:47:45.875 --> 01:47:51.575 found his way through horses, but in an unconventional way, I just know that with 01:47:51.575 --> 01:47:55.295 people like you out there doing this sort of thing, there's gonna be more kids like 01:47:55.415 --> 01:47:58.205 mine helped, and this makes me happy. 01:47:58.865 --> 01:48:01.265 I want to thank all the listeners. 01:48:02.255 --> 01:48:02.345 Mm-hmm. 01:48:02.585 --> 01:48:03.365 Or, tune in. 01:48:03.365 --> 01:48:05.405 Please do contact Terry directly. 01:48:05.405 --> 01:48:05.495 Yes. 01:48:05.705 --> 01:48:07.205 She really will get back to you. 01:48:07.385 --> 01:48:08.045 She will help you. 01:48:08.045 --> 01:48:09.845 I've, I've seen her do this time and time again. 01:48:10.235 --> 01:48:12.125 It doesn't matter if you're in the USA or Japan. 01:48:12.800 --> 01:48:16.610 She can help you, particularly if you are trying to put something together in 01:48:16.610 --> 01:48:21.110 a smaller space, particularly if you're looking at how to look at all these 01:48:21.110 --> 01:48:25.760 various, apparently conflicting modalities within the, the therapeutic horse world. 01:48:25.765 --> 01:48:27.020 How do you marry them all together? 01:48:27.680 --> 01:48:28.820 She's the lady to talk to. 01:48:29.300 --> 01:48:36.562 if you are interested in, what we do at Horse Boy, please go to, n ntls.co. 01:48:37.190 --> 01:48:38.330 ntls.co. 01:48:38.330 --> 01:48:40.400 That's for new Trails Learning Systems. 01:48:41.090 --> 01:48:44.420 that's Horse Boy Method Movement Method, and Athena, which is 01:48:44.425 --> 01:48:46.220 our trauma based modality. 01:48:46.670 --> 01:48:48.620 Or if you're interested in the horse training and personal 01:48:48.620 --> 01:48:53.480 development, go to long ride home.com and you'll find us there. 01:48:53.810 --> 01:48:58.700 and please tune in for the next equine assisted world. 01:48:58.700 --> 01:49:02.360 As you can see with Terry here, the people that are coming on this 01:49:02.390 --> 01:49:04.700 are, are doing extraordinary work that we all need to know about. 01:49:05.210 --> 01:49:06.860 I have one last little sneaky question. 01:49:06.890 --> 01:49:07.250 Yes. 01:49:07.490 --> 01:49:07.820 Okay. 01:49:08.150 --> 01:49:13.880 You and I, I'm sure everyone was wondering this, your surname is Brosnan and you're 01:49:13.880 --> 01:49:16.160 Irish and you're living in county. 01:49:16.160 --> 01:49:16.760 Me? 01:49:17.060 --> 01:49:17.660 Yes. 01:49:17.660 --> 01:49:19.820 We're to know that Pierce Brosnan. 01:49:20.180 --> 01:49:22.070 Pierce Brosnan is a Navan man, right? 01:49:22.070 --> 01:49:23.000 I believe he, yes. 01:49:23.450 --> 01:49:23.720 Right. 01:49:24.170 --> 01:49:25.280 Any, yeah, any relation? 01:49:25.280 --> 01:49:25.940 Are you relation? 01:49:25.970 --> 01:49:26.510 Terri Brosnan: Yes. 01:49:26.720 --> 01:49:29.000 They're all actually Kerry men. 01:49:29.960 --> 01:49:29.990 Oh. 01:49:29.990 --> 01:49:32.390 And apparently there was a family feud. 01:49:32.735 --> 01:49:37.665 About a hundred years ago over a farm somewhere in Kerry, on the other side of 01:49:37.665 --> 01:49:39.845 Ireland, on the other side of Ireland. 01:49:40.385 --> 01:49:43.475 so our side of the family doesn't actually know his side of the 01:49:43.475 --> 01:49:48.215 family, for some bizarre reason, but apparently he's a lovely man. 01:49:48.575 --> 01:49:50.905 and yes, his family are from just up the road, so they're 01:49:51.175 --> 01:49:51.465 Rupert Isaacson: okay. 01:49:51.465 --> 01:49:51.545 Yeah. 01:49:51.545 --> 01:49:54.905 So what that really means, our listeners, is if you get in touch with Terry, she'll 01:49:55.115 --> 01:49:56.525 sort you out with a date with Pierce. 01:49:56.675 --> 01:49:57.545 So, excellent. 01:49:57.815 --> 01:49:59.615 Or, or the more reason to, to contact. 01:50:00.275 --> 01:50:03.075 Terri Brosnan: I, I'm only married to his, lovely cousin, so, 01:50:05.175 --> 01:50:07.265 Rupert Isaacson: and, and Nile, Nile Brosnan. 01:50:07.265 --> 01:50:10.325 For those who don't know, Terry's husband is a very, very lovely man. 01:50:10.505 --> 01:50:12.185 He's what you would really call a polymath. 01:50:12.345 --> 01:50:14.265 , computers, mathematics, music. 01:50:14.805 --> 01:50:15.315 Brilliant man. 01:50:15.315 --> 01:50:19.635 If you ever find yourself lucky enough to be around a table with that man 01:50:19.640 --> 01:50:24.465 with a glass of whiskey in Terry's kitchen, so, so if you sign up on 01:50:24.465 --> 01:50:27.075 one of Terry's courses, you might find yourself in that situation. 01:50:27.105 --> 01:50:29.145 Terri Brosnan: You may well find yourself in my kitchen. 01:50:31.395 --> 01:50:31.965 Ruth, thank you. 01:50:31.965 --> 01:50:32.115 It's 01:50:32.115 --> 01:50:32.595 Rupert Isaacson: been such a pleasure. 01:50:32.600 --> 01:50:33.885 Oh, thank you so much. 01:50:33.885 --> 01:50:33.905 Thank you very much. 01:50:33.975 --> 01:50:34.335 All right. 01:50:34.335 --> 01:50:35.445 I can't wait till the next time. 01:50:35.575 --> 01:50:35.865 Okay. 01:50:35.935 --> 01:50:36.225 Okay. 01:50:36.225 --> 01:50:36.785 Talk to you soon. 01:50:36.845 --> 01:50:37.385 See you soon. 01:50:37.495 --> 01:50:37.985 Bye-Bye. 01:50:38.005 --> 01:50:38.225 All. 01:50:38.432 --> 01:50:39.542 thank you for joining us. 01:50:39.572 --> 01:50:41.402 We hope you enjoyed today's podcast. 01:50:41.640 --> 01:50:46.680 Join our website, new trails learning.com, to check out our online 01:50:46.680 --> 01:50:51.870 courses and live workshops in Horse Boy Method, movement Method, and Athena. 01:50:52.578 --> 01:50:57.226 These evidence-based programs have helped children, veterans, and people 01:50:57.226 --> 01:50:59.236 dealing with trauma around the world. 01:50:59.563 --> 01:51:03.313 We also offer a horse training program and self-care program 01:51:03.313 --> 01:51:06.553 for riders on long ride home.com. 01:51:06.852 --> 01:51:10.902 These include easy to do online courses and tutorials that 01:51:10.902 --> 01:51:12.822 bring you and your horse joy. 01:51:13.358 --> 01:51:17.918 For an overview of all shows and programs, go to rupert isaacson.com. 01:51:18.248 --> 01:51:19.178 See you on the next show. 01:51:19.591 --> 01:51:22.281 And please remember to press, subscribe and share.