WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:06.800 Music. 00:00:07.111 --> 00:00:11.783 To the Uncut Podcast. I'm Pastor Luke. I'm Pastor Cameron. 00:00:11.900 --> 00:00:18.346 And this is the Uncut Podcast, where we have uncut, honest conversations about faith, life, 00:00:18.436 --> 00:00:26.925 and ministry. Today, we are going to be diving into, I don't know, is it a current topic? It's 00:00:27.206 --> 00:00:35.606 a current church topic of maybe some debate, some back and forth, controversy. He said, 00:00:35.606 --> 00:00:41.806 He said type of the type of thing that's been going around the internet the last, 00:00:43.646 --> 00:00:53.806 Couple weeks. Yeah. Um, yeah this specific this specific one, but the the the controversy surrounding some of the characters involved is, 00:00:54.850 --> 00:00:57.166 Longer. Yeah, it's nothing particularly new, 00:00:58.586 --> 00:01:06.606 so And I didn't I wasn't aware of this until yesterday until you brought it to my attention it escaped my eagle eye, 00:01:08.462 --> 00:01:11.606 Of what's going on in the church world and, 00:01:13.686 --> 00:01:15.871 How do we want to frame it well. 00:01:19.486 --> 00:01:24.972 That's a good question because I would like to give, 00:01:25.917 --> 00:01:29.815 Even though I have my own thoughts and perspectives, I would like to give an equal. 00:01:31.589 --> 00:01:40.239 An equal um fair shake essentially to each of the parties involved right which we'll link 00:01:40.348 --> 00:01:47.919 we'll link all we'll both we'll link both parties yeah responses to each other and statements in the 00:01:47.919 --> 00:01:52.319 in the show notes so that you can go and look at those yourself you can even go do that before 00:01:52.319 --> 00:02:00.882 you listen if you really want to okay so i guess i'll just explain yeah the situation so in down 00:02:01.199 --> 00:02:07.959 Down in Georgia, there is a very influential pastor by the name of Andy Stanley, 00:02:07.959 --> 00:02:12.099 son of the famous Charles Stanley, if you're of the church world. 00:02:13.439 --> 00:02:22.079 Andy is pastor of North Point Community Church, one of the largest and most influential churches in America. 00:02:22.079 --> 00:02:29.212 He is probably one of the most, He is one of the most influential pastors in America. 00:02:29.399 --> 00:02:35.442 And I've always respected his ministry, liked his ministry. 00:02:35.759 --> 00:02:39.239 I've never really paid that much attention to him, if I'm 100% honest. 00:02:39.239 --> 00:02:42.265 I don't think I've ever listened to a sermon by him or anything like that. 00:02:42.359 --> 00:02:47.163 Maybe read a book that was required of me at one point. He's a really good communicator. 00:02:47.279 --> 00:02:53.119 Yeah. Very, very good communicator and a really good writer. 00:02:53.119 --> 00:02:59.279 Writer, read a couple of his books that I thought were excellent. Probably his most excellent book 00:02:59.279 --> 00:03:04.639 was in response to the last controversy that he was a part of, a book called Irresistible. 00:03:05.887 --> 00:03:11.999 Excellent, excellent book, but it was in response to a controversy that was created after he 00:03:12.117 --> 00:03:20.479 made some comments about unhitching the Old Testament from current Christian experience 00:03:20.479 --> 00:03:29.199 in theology, and that book was essentially his explanation of that comment in a very, 00:03:29.199 --> 00:03:30.148 very long form. 00:03:30.199 --> 00:03:34.226 Yeah, I thought it was excellent. Okay Okay. Bye-bye. 00:03:35.496 --> 00:03:40.346 So his church, essentially. 00:03:43.076 --> 00:03:46.695 After experiencing what he described as starting way back. 00:03:50.066 --> 00:03:54.950 In 2011, I think, had been experiencing lots of- 00:03:59.757 --> 00:04:07.906 Pastoral concerns, shepherding responsibilities. And the main concern, or the main things 00:04:07.906 --> 00:04:10.272 that were coming up were that they were finding 00:04:10.386 --> 00:04:15.178 middle schoolers and youth group age kids, students, 00:04:15.466 --> 00:04:19.265 who were expressing in their small groups, 00:04:20.026 --> 00:04:26.306 that they were having same-sex attraction, they were having a homosexual desire, 00:04:26.306 --> 00:04:27.664 they didn't know what to do with it, 00:04:28.026 --> 00:04:32.957 they were scared, they were confused, they were, they didn't know how, 00:04:33.146 --> 00:04:35.739 why they were feeling the way that they were feeling. 00:04:36.333 --> 00:04:38.706 And they were confessing these things to their small group leaders. 00:04:39.646 --> 00:04:40.510 And they're small groups. 00:04:41.842 --> 00:04:54.914 It was 10 years ago. And so, what they were experiencing then was this sense of like, 00:04:55.492 --> 00:05:00.032 how do we shepherd these kids through this and in this? 00:05:01.278 --> 00:05:10.569 But equally as important is how do we support the family unit, parents in particular, 00:05:11.212 --> 00:05:18.473 as they parent their kids through these really difficult situations and questions 00:05:18.752 --> 00:05:20.552 in a way that honors Jesus, 00:05:21.281 --> 00:05:26.552 in a way that allows them to remain in relationship and connection with their kids 00:05:26.552 --> 00:05:31.552 without just like flat out, you know, ostracizing them. 00:05:33.472 --> 00:05:39.682 And so they started a ministry back in 2013 called Parent Connect. Yep. 00:05:40.832 --> 00:05:47.109 Which gave parents who were having similar experiences essentially a small group of their own. 00:05:48.312 --> 00:05:51.752 And that eventually grew and grew and grew and grew and grew and grew and grew 00:05:51.752 --> 00:05:54.293 to like 300 some parents. 00:05:57.326 --> 00:06:00.112 I mean, understand this is a church of tens of thousands of people. 00:06:00.112 --> 00:06:02.062 Right, right. So yeah. 00:06:03.792 --> 00:06:12.531 And so as they were, as this was happening, they were saying like, we were this parent connect group, 00:06:16.152 --> 00:06:23.613 as a whole and the leaders of that were saying like, we need a bigger resource to help these parents. 00:06:28.915 --> 00:06:35.847 Navigate through these very difficult waters. And so the leaders of that ministry went to Andy, 00:06:36.512 --> 00:06:40.112 with the pastor and said, could we hold some kind of training, 00:06:40.112 --> 00:06:41.429 some kind of conference. 00:06:42.662 --> 00:06:52.432 In order to bring perspective, help encourage parents, maybe bring some resourcing, 00:06:53.438 --> 00:07:00.992 that will help them to navigate through this. And so Andy said, absolutely. I think that's a 00:07:00.992 --> 00:07:10.272 great idea. And so they established a conference called Unconditional, which I'm assuming is meant 00:07:10.380 --> 00:07:13.472 to express, you know, unconditional love for our kids. 00:07:13.472 --> 00:07:23.472 The, if you go to the website for Unconditional, the conference, the stated goal of the conference 00:07:23.472 --> 00:07:29.552 is, you will be equipped, refreshed, and inspired as you hear from leading communicators on topics 00:07:29.552 --> 00:07:34.512 that speak to your heart, soul, and mind. No matter the theological stance you hold, 00:07:34.512 --> 00:07:39.632 we invite you to listen, reflect, and learn as we approach this topic from the quieter 00:07:39.709 --> 00:07:40.537 middle space. 00:07:42.014 --> 00:07:45.309 Okay. Okay. So. 00:07:48.396 --> 00:07:57.926 That's what happened. He hosted a conference that came out of an ongoing pastoral need and or 00:07:57.926 --> 00:08:09.286 ministry that had been ongoing to parents of LGBTQ+. And yeah, so it seems like a very natural 00:08:09.286 --> 00:08:20.166 thing to do from all of that backstory. So the reason it hit the news, or it hit kind of like 00:08:20.166 --> 00:08:28.726 the blogosphere, like it became a talking point was because Albert Moeller, who is... 00:08:29.771 --> 00:08:39.286 He's president of Southern Baptist Convention. And he's also, he hosts, he does a lot of political social commentary. He has like a 00:08:39.286 --> 00:08:44.806 podcast that's every day. It's like, you know, a 15, 20 minute podcast where he just talks about 00:08:44.949 --> 00:08:51.606 the headlines and talks about like theological implications for social things. He wrote a 00:08:51.606 --> 00:08:54.212 article for where, what was it? World. 00:08:54.545 --> 00:09:05.926 World where he calls out, he sees the conference prior to it having happened. So conference, I think when he wrote that 00:09:05.926 --> 00:09:08.472 article, the conference had not yet happened. It was like, no, 00:09:09.086 --> 00:09:16.493 he know it was it hadn't happened yet. Yeah. So it hadn't happened yet. It was scheduled to happen. molar got on the 00:09:16.726 --> 00:09:20.328 website, read about the conference read about the 00:09:20.670 --> 00:09:27.766 speakers became knowledgeable what slash already was knowledgeable about who those speakers are. 00:09:27.766 --> 00:09:35.424 Moeller is a, if nothing else, a very intelligent man with a mind that has like a steel trap. 00:09:35.566 --> 00:09:39.953 He seems to be constantly reading and aware of things. 00:09:40.547 --> 00:09:46.006 He reads that and he essentially kind of calls Andy Stanley out for having. 00:09:47.289 --> 00:09:56.179 Departed from biblical Christianity, raising concerns over the language when you stated 00:09:56.179 --> 00:10:03.939 that the purpose of the conference, Moeller takes particular aim at this, the quieter middle ground. 00:10:07.539 --> 00:10:14.458 In particular, he says, and I'll quote him here, he says, He says, ministry leaders working through these issues. 00:10:17.619 --> 00:10:23.163 In clearly biblical terms would be a welcome development, but the advertising for the Unconditional Conference 00:10:23.339 --> 00:10:30.104 indicates clearly that this event is designed as a platform for normalizing the LGBTQ revolution, 00:10:30.671 --> 00:10:34.083 while claiming that the conference represents the quieter middle space. Right. 00:10:36.499 --> 00:10:42.659 And his assertion behind that is that the speaker, the speaker list... Speakers, yeah. 00:10:43.995 --> 00:10:50.579 Contains three prominent speakers, I think, that I remember he mentioned specifically, 00:10:51.241 --> 00:10:59.497 who he identified as clearly not holding biblical or New Testament Christian sexual ethic 00:10:59.650 --> 00:11:08.259 in concern with homosexuality and homosexual practice. And so he sees that as a clear red 00:11:08.259 --> 00:11:15.139 flag, warning sign that this is wrong, that this conference is about normalizing homosexual 00:11:15.139 --> 00:11:24.179 practice in the Christian faith, and kind of fires that shot across the bow. And that's... 00:11:25.379 --> 00:11:32.419 And that becomes at least the spark for all of the subsequent people talking about it, 00:11:32.419 --> 00:11:42.899 responding to it. And the conference happens. Andy Stanley on this past Sunday, if I've got my timing right. 00:11:46.245 --> 00:11:53.135 Dedicated his Sunday morning church services, didn't have a traditional Sunday service and 00:11:53.135 --> 00:12:01.695 give a traditional message, but gave it time to essentially just respond to that article. 00:12:03.764 --> 00:12:10.335 And that's up on, again, all of the articles, the responses, all that's linked in the show notes. 00:12:10.533 --> 00:12:18.415 He gives what was like, I think it was like 49 minute talk Um in response where he kind of outlines the history that you just gave, 00:12:19.284 --> 00:12:25.423 so, uh, which is I think is a key important like part to the story um, 00:12:26.846 --> 00:12:33.135 Is you know is that at that point andy kind of made visible what was invisible to a lot of people, 00:12:33.741 --> 00:12:35.569 Was that his historical? 00:12:36.028 --> 00:12:43.662 Or historical thread that carried them to the decision to hold the conference and stuff like that. 00:12:44.575 --> 00:12:49.585 And then he kind of gave his explanation, and we'll talk probably more about that, so, 00:12:50.055 --> 00:12:55.428 I don't want to dive into Andy's response too deeply, other than simply to say that 00:12:55.770 --> 00:13:04.955 Andy gave the explanation that you sort of gave, that story, and affirmed conservative 00:13:04.955 --> 00:13:11.995 Christian sexual ethic, and then kind of move forward. 00:13:13.315 --> 00:13:19.265 So then Albert Moller saw that response obviously and gave another response 00:13:19.265 --> 00:13:25.565 I don't know if he wrote an article, but he did release I listened to his podcast response, 00:13:26.783 --> 00:13:32.175 and So he He kind of doubled down, 00:13:32.685 --> 00:13:38.645 calling out some of the wording and responses that Andy used in his response and so 00:13:38.819 --> 00:13:45.925 That's at least where this kind of stands. It's probably pretty much the end of the conversation. I don't imagine that either of them, 00:13:47.128 --> 00:13:51.764 Have too much more to go back and forth on no, I don't know. I can't imagine why, 00:13:52.619 --> 00:13:54.600 but when you're also seeing like, 00:13:55.689 --> 00:14:02.205 You know you say that okay, Andy Stanley has a pretty big platform. Yes. He does have an extraordinarily large platform. 00:14:03.494 --> 00:14:07.045 There's good argument to say that Albert Mueller's platform is larger probably, 00:14:07.779 --> 00:14:15.805 Um, the Southern Baptist convention is the largest Protestant denomination in the United States. Yeah. 00:14:16.250 --> 00:14:28.085 Um, and there are some big heavy hitters in the SBC, um, they, uh, and so, and so it is 00:14:28.085 --> 00:14:35.405 obviously filtering into the followers essentially of both Andy Stanley and the SBC. 00:14:35.405 --> 00:14:42.445 I'm sure that the conversation itself is not over, but the primary, the primary, the Stanley 00:14:42.445 --> 00:14:48.205 and Moeller, I don't imagine will exchange much more than they already have. 00:14:48.205 --> 00:14:56.922 I think all the followers, the subsequent people like us will continue the conversation though. Right. So... 00:14:57.859 --> 00:15:03.805 I... Where do we want to go from there? 00:15:05.628 --> 00:15:03.872 Yeah. 00:15:05.628 --> 00:15:11.698 So I wrote a lot of questions down. Yeah, that are that I want to kind of wrestle with. 00:15:15.629 --> 00:15:18.771 Also recognizing that. 00:15:20.904 --> 00:15:30.438 It's I think it's difficult and I was why I appreciated Andy's message The sermon that he gave this week. It's difficult to divorce the 00:15:30.758 --> 00:15:38.630 the conversation around it from the reason, ultimately, that the conference was developed in the church. 00:15:39.107 --> 00:15:44.337 Yes. You can't divorce it from the people that he's seeking to care for. 00:15:45.742 --> 00:15:51.358 Right. If I could characterize, like, I don't want to overly broad sweep this and say that Albert 00:15:51.358 --> 00:15:59.658 Moeller has zero pastoral heart or intention, but it seems to me that Albert Moeller is 00:15:59.785 --> 00:16:07.778 particularly concerned with theological orthodoxy and clarity, and Andy Stanley, I don't want 00:16:07.778 --> 00:16:15.138 to say he's unconcerned with those things, but he seems to be primarily more emphasizing 00:16:15.138 --> 00:16:25.658 shepherding and pastoral care concerns over the particular clarity and being hyper-clear 00:16:25.658 --> 00:16:34.418 and like, you know, line by line affirming kind of traditional Christian ethics, sexual 00:16:34.418 --> 00:16:35.418 ethic. 00:16:35.794 --> 00:16:43.320 And so it, that's I think where some of the conflict is coming from, Moller coming at this from like a... 00:16:46.327 --> 00:16:51.064 More detached theological perspective, Andy coming at it from a more, 00:16:53.115 --> 00:16:56.264 integrated pastoral perspective. Right. So. 00:16:56.319 --> 00:17:03.544 Right. And one of my questions, you know, one of my ultimate questions is, is like, what is the, 00:17:05.592 --> 00:17:12.824 you know, is this a pastoral issue, or is it a theological issue, or is it both, 00:17:12.824 --> 00:17:15.611 and what is the connection there. 00:17:16.904 --> 00:17:22.384 And maybe we can come back to that. But I'm not, you know, like I'm not, 00:17:22.384 --> 00:17:27.404 I don't wanna come down at least at this point as saying I agree with this, 00:17:28.124 --> 00:17:33.744 I agree with Andy or I agree with Al or I agree with, you know, whatever. 00:17:35.544 --> 00:17:41.601 What I will say is that I do feel for Andy in this situation. 00:17:41.804 --> 00:17:44.824 I feel for him because I do get the sense. 00:17:49.044 --> 00:17:56.284 I have no reason to not believe him that this came out of the reality. 00:18:00.484 --> 00:18:06.312 Of the people that he's pastoring that are just really confused and really hurt 00:18:06.604 --> 00:18:09.373 and don't know how to proceed. 00:18:10.404 --> 00:18:21.044 And his desire is to respond in some way to those, to their hurt and to their confusion. 00:18:21.949 --> 00:18:31.923 And I mean, as a father of children with some non-normative issues myself, Mm-hmm. I. 00:18:33.409 --> 00:18:42.339 I like have myself been in a place of like I'm suffocating under the weight 00:18:42.339 --> 00:18:45.868 of not knowing what to do, not knowing where to go, 00:18:46.099 --> 00:18:54.739 wondering who I can talk to about these issues because they're not normal and not everyone experiences them 00:18:54.739 --> 00:18:59.470 and I kind of just feel out on an island about it. 00:18:59.739 --> 00:19:06.024 And so, if my pastor was like, we're gonna get, you know, like, 00:19:06.419 --> 00:19:10.147 we're gonna surround you with a community of people that are experiencing the same things as you, 00:19:10.839 --> 00:19:19.419 we're going to do our best to resource you with people who are mired in the conversation 00:19:19.419 --> 00:19:20.554 for longer than we are. 00:19:21.139 --> 00:19:29.579 We're gonna take this issue that's serious for you, I guess for you, we're gonna take it serious as a church. 00:19:29.579 --> 00:19:34.435 That would be life-giving, life-giving. 00:19:40.059 --> 00:19:49.499 So I feel a little bit sympathetic towards Andy because I feel like he responded pastorally 00:19:49.622 --> 00:19:54.499 and is getting a lot, taking a lot of heat from it. 00:19:54.499 --> 00:19:55.159 The heat from it. 00:19:55.419 --> 00:20:02.419 Now, that's not to say that, 00:20:05.790 --> 00:20:14.000 when every time we respond pastorally, we have to do so with an absence of theological perspective. 00:20:17.840 --> 00:20:23.720 Meaning like we can't, I don't think that we can. Because people's lives are involved, 00:20:23.720 --> 00:20:26.666 I get to kind of make theology foggy. 00:20:27.297 --> 00:20:28.200 Right, or soft. 00:20:29.187 --> 00:20:36.659 Yeah, right. I don't have to take a strong theological perspective because it's a sensitive issue for people. 00:20:36.840 --> 00:20:41.840 We don't, that's not being pastoral, actually. 00:20:42.120 --> 00:20:53.547 Being pastoral, I think, is integrating a deep care for a person along with a commitment to, 00:20:54.258 --> 00:20:56.194 what we believe the truth of God's word is, 00:20:57.120 --> 00:21:04.320 knowing that the truth of God's word actually offers the most deeply pastoral response 00:21:04.386 --> 00:21:15.120 people. It's just, I think it's in the nuancing of biblical truth that the pastoral heart comes out. 00:21:15.504 --> 00:21:15.680 Yeah. 00:21:16.854 --> 00:21:18.640 You know, because there is a difference between. 00:21:21.193 --> 00:21:26.340 The classic line of beating someone over the head with the Bible, right? Yeah. 00:21:26.964 --> 00:21:35.140 And speaking the truth of God's heart and God's word into the midst of a relationship 00:21:35.140 --> 00:21:39.468 that's already been developed of trust and love, 00:21:40.260 --> 00:21:44.640 and respect, you know. 00:21:49.496 --> 00:22:03.686 So I there I feel some I feel some sympathy. Yeah, some empathy or sure Yeah, I feel sorry for right a little bit and and I'll be honest like I've never watched an Anley Stanley sermon 00:22:04.062 --> 00:22:08.546 I'm not sure that I've read an Anley Stanley book. So I'm really very just not familiar with him, 00:22:09.265 --> 00:22:11.986 But having watched his response video, 00:22:13.106 --> 00:22:21.026 My respect for him went up. Yeah, I was like, oh oh, there's some robustness here and a pastor's heart 00:22:21.406 --> 00:22:25.145 that I can really resonate with and actually respect. 00:22:28.266 --> 00:22:36.020 He said something towards the end, it was like kind of his last main section of his response, 00:22:36.706 --> 00:22:37.883 which was essentially. 00:22:41.586 --> 00:22:46.931 Okay, there was the history of how this came about and why we decided to do it, 00:22:47.326 --> 00:22:52.143 but you all want to know, what do we believe as a church? 00:22:55.816 --> 00:23:03.766 Because it would seem that if we believe that homosexuality is indeed a sin according to scripture 00:23:03.766 --> 00:23:05.664 and incompatible with Christian teaching, 00:23:08.186 --> 00:23:13.343 that there is a Christian sexual ethic and it does not include homosexual practice, 00:23:14.126 --> 00:23:18.070 then what is it that we believe, Andy? Why are we, what do we believe? 00:23:19.466 --> 00:23:26.526 I thought his response was really good and not one that I ever really stopped 00:23:26.526 --> 00:23:33.977 to consider the difference, the nuance, because he said something to the effect of like, what we believe. 00:23:35.192 --> 00:23:41.282 Is really the wrong question. Because in a church as large as ours, this is him speaking, 00:23:41.282 --> 00:23:46.322 yes, in a church as large as ours, yes, you're going to find people that believe, 00:23:47.522 --> 00:23:53.362 1000 different things on the same topic, right? And even a church as large as ours, yes, 00:23:54.043 --> 00:24:00.722 you're going to find that people believe different things. Yeah, on different topics, 00:24:00.882 --> 00:24:06.342 Around the same topic, right, but what do we teach? Yes, but he said the question is not what we believe, 00:24:06.835 --> 00:24:12.930 The question is what do we teach? Yes. Mm-hmm. I thought that was a really helpful distinction. Yes. Well, 00:24:13.922 --> 00:24:16.562 before you go on I do think that like. 00:24:18.016 --> 00:24:26.522 I Read a paper. It's like there's not very many papers I read in my degree that like I actively remember but there are a handful 00:24:26.522 --> 00:24:37.551 One of them was an argumentation for a hermeneutic of love. So, hermeneutic being, 00:24:38.523 --> 00:24:46.562 like a fancy word for how we read and understand a text. The lens you look through. And that can be applied to the Bible. Usually when 00:24:46.562 --> 00:24:48.882 you're talking with pastors and Christians, hermeneutics is applied, 00:24:49.479 --> 00:25:00.262 strictly to the Bible. Hermeneutics is also a larger discipline in scholasticism and can be applied to any text as a larger philosophical question. 00:25:00.786 --> 00:25:07.342 But this paper or book, it was arguing that, like, one of our key lenses we need to read 00:25:07.342 --> 00:25:11.858 through is with a lens of love and charity. 00:25:12.162 --> 00:25:17.882 He was a professor, if I remember correctly, and he had a student who, like, in a lecture 00:25:17.882 --> 00:25:24.142 class said, like, oh, the author of this book is so dumb, and, like, just decided, just 00:25:24.142 --> 00:25:31.222 tried to kind of just, like, ride over this author's opinion and his argumentation in the book. 00:25:31.375 --> 00:25:37.422 And the professor stopped his student and said, would you say that to the author's face? 00:25:39.117 --> 00:25:44.887 Is that how you would treat him if he was here in the room?" And so, the professors, 00:25:44.887 --> 00:25:52.327 the guy who wrote this article, he is just like, can you enter into a dialogue with who you're 00:25:52.327 --> 00:25:58.283 reading? And can you choose to do so with charity? Christian charity, Christian love, 00:25:58.607 --> 00:26:08.327 seek understanding, do not become determined to misunderstand, right? And for me, that's something 00:26:08.327 --> 00:26:14.407 that's resonated with me for a long time, still stands out in my mind. And as I hear these three, 00:26:15.135 --> 00:26:22.407 pieces, the article, the response by Andy, and then Albert Muller's podcast, there are instances 00:26:22.407 --> 00:26:29.207 in all three of those where I feel like they are committed to misunderstanding and speaking past 00:26:29.207 --> 00:26:38.087 each other. And what you're pointing out is one of those reasons. Is that distinction 00:26:38.087 --> 00:26:46.887 between what do we believe and what do we teach, right? And that is a ecclesiological distinction, 00:26:47.741 --> 00:26:53.746 that is probably very necessary at the size of church that Andy Stanley pastors at. 00:26:55.105 --> 00:27:02.887 And the complexity of that, that I'm not sure is incorporated to the way that Albert Moeller is 00:27:02.887 --> 00:27:06.407 responding to Andy's statements. 00:27:06.799 --> 00:27:15.087 I think what Al wants is he wants a unity of belief within in the church. 00:27:17.161 --> 00:27:19.610 Not necessarily a unity of teaching. Yeah. 00:27:20.762 --> 00:27:25.083 He wants a unity of like, no, everyone must believe this way. 00:27:25.290 --> 00:27:30.291 Right. Making it clear that if you do not believe that way, you are in some way not, 00:27:30.853 --> 00:27:33.971 welcome, or you are some way not in. 00:27:34.121 --> 00:27:35.300 Or you have departed. 00:27:35.589 --> 00:27:42.131 Right. From biblical Christianity. Right. It's an in, it's an out. It's that statement. Andy is seeking, 00:27:42.131 --> 00:27:52.771 very possibly because of the nature of his ministry, like, and its necessity for that, 00:27:53.188 --> 00:28:00.309 is seeking to figure out how to draw a line—draw circles rather than lines, which is a whole 00:28:00.571 --> 00:28:06.571 statement in itself that they go back and forth over. But—and I don't know, like, I don't have—I 00:28:06.571 --> 00:28:15.091 I continue to wrestle with, we're not pastors of a massive megachurch, and so our philosophy 00:28:15.091 --> 00:28:21.032 of ministry hasn't had to accommodate some of the complexities of size. 00:28:21.451 --> 00:28:28.931 And I do still wonder if there comes a point at which, you know, my philosophy of ministry 00:28:28.931 --> 00:28:34.131 would not allow me to pastor a church of a certain size because of the compromises I 00:28:34.292 --> 00:28:38.037 I would potentially have to make on how I think ministry should be conducted. 00:28:38.388 --> 00:28:42.962 And so I don't know that I necessarily agree with some of the conclusions that Andy draws with, 00:28:43.403 --> 00:28:46.544 but I do respect and understand them, I think. 00:28:47.112 --> 00:28:51.771 Yes, yeah, agree. Yeah. I agree with that. So I didn't mean to completely derail 00:28:51.771 --> 00:28:55.754 where you were going with that, but I thought that was a really key thing. 00:28:55.891 --> 00:28:56.267 Sure. 00:28:56.960 --> 00:29:06.811 So, yeah, I, um, anyway, in that section of that message, he does outline, at least in 00:29:06.811 --> 00:29:10.891 some general terms, one of the, one of the points that Albert Mueller makes throughout 00:29:10.891 --> 00:29:16.621 all of his responses that Andy just doesn't go far enough in the clarity of his belief 00:29:16.837 --> 00:29:17.811 or what he teaches. 00:29:18.196 --> 00:29:19.520 Right. And. 00:29:21.059 --> 00:29:30.269 And partially, Andy responds to that actually in his message where he says, 00:29:30.269 --> 00:29:36.129 my first responsibility of communication and clarity is to my local church. Yes. 00:29:37.272 --> 00:29:45.410 So I like, it's really not unclear where we stand here in North Point. 00:29:45.509 --> 00:29:52.989 Right. Because everyone who's here, Shears the teaching and knows, right? 00:29:53.009 --> 00:29:58.649 So maybe I'm like being a little unfair with this really brief explanation about what they teach 00:29:58.649 --> 00:30:06.034 because I'm sure, because I'm a pastor and I know that someone could soundbite, 00:30:06.349 --> 00:30:12.849 grab something that I say in a sermon and say, this is all that they believe on a topic 00:30:12.849 --> 00:30:17.863 where they haven't listened to the last nine years of preaching that I've done here. Right. 00:30:18.899 --> 00:30:23.769 So how could they grab it out of one thing? So with that understanding. 00:30:24.929 --> 00:30:30.929 I do think that there is some, there could have been more room for clarity, 00:30:31.729 --> 00:30:41.557 and going further in Andy's response about what do we believe about a New Testament sexual ethic. 00:30:41.989 --> 00:30:49.149 You know, and he does, we affirm what scripture says about marriage. 00:30:49.149 --> 00:30:52.349 We affirm what scripture says about homosexual practice. 00:30:52.522 --> 00:30:55.394 We agree with Paul. We agree with Jesus. 00:30:55.569 --> 00:30:56.798 We agree with the scripture. 00:30:57.069 --> 00:31:02.069 But then you look at the conference and you're like, 00:31:06.719 --> 00:31:10.374 How, where does the theology impact the practice? 00:31:13.569 --> 00:31:18.569 Right, and what, like what is the discernment process. 00:31:21.969 --> 00:31:30.809 That happens when you say on one side of the coin, we affirm what, for instance, 00:31:30.809 --> 00:31:32.528 First Corinthians chapter six, verse nine, 00:31:33.086 --> 00:31:41.350 or essentially we affirm what the scripture says about marriage between one man and one woman, 00:31:41.709 --> 00:31:43.799 for life, all this, we affirm all that. 00:31:44.267 --> 00:31:47.589 And then on the other side, now we're holding a conference. 00:31:48.909 --> 00:31:57.589 And if I had to guess, I would say that the conference speakers are actually 00:31:57.589 --> 00:31:59.211 the sticking point for Al Mohler. 00:32:00.228 --> 00:32:07.169 Probably I think that they are the thing that was like spotlight Mm-hmm that they're the thing that ultimately, 00:32:08.168 --> 00:32:13.049 Brought the attention if Andy Stanley would have been the one just teaching the lessons. Mm-hmm, 00:32:13.498 --> 00:32:16.929 I think it wouldn't have been a thing right but some of the speakers, 00:32:18.071 --> 00:32:21.474 That they brought to the conference. Mm-hmm We're troubled. 00:32:21.699 --> 00:32:23.193 It's troublesome. And I... 00:32:24.858 --> 00:32:25.173 Thank you. 00:32:27.856 --> 00:32:34.095 I get it. I get where Al Mueller is coming from. Yeah. That this is, this is troubling. Yes. 00:32:35.226 --> 00:32:39.546 For instance, in his first, um, uh, first article, he said, schedule speakers for the 00:32:39.546 --> 00:32:44.586 event included two men who are married to other men, at least according to current civil law, 00:32:45.564 --> 00:32:54.845 um, biographical background on speakers, Justin Lee and Brian needs will indicate that both men are in what is now described as same sex marriages. Um, 00:32:55.866 --> 00:33:02.848 Lee is well-known as a platform speaker who argues for the legitimacy of monogamous same-sex relationships. 00:33:03.526 --> 00:33:07.682 Nietzsche presents seminars on restoring LGBTQ plus faith. 00:33:08.906 --> 00:33:12.435 Just to be clear, I do not believe that this is the quieter middle space. 00:33:14.846 --> 00:33:18.706 And then he quotes David Gushie, who is a doctor, a scholar, 00:33:20.446 --> 00:33:21.879 who says, essentially, 00:33:22.437 --> 00:33:29.810 I grant that the historical claim that the Christian church has believed over the time that same-sex acts 00:33:29.906 --> 00:33:32.240 in relationships are always wrong, 00:33:32.426 --> 00:33:36.426 but the book traces his change over time to a position in which it clearly asserts 00:33:36.426 --> 00:33:38.767 that the Christian church has been historically wrong on the issue. 00:33:41.426 --> 00:33:49.201 And then he quotes Gushie one more time saying, this is one of the speakers, Gushie, 00:33:49.300 --> 00:33:54.146 I am, I am instead asking whether a devout gay and lesbian Christian might be able to 00:33:54.146 --> 00:34:00.626 participate in the covenantal marital sexual ethical standard, one person for life, faithful 00:34:00.626 --> 00:34:05.774 and exclusive in a loving, non-exploitive, non-coercive reciprocal relationship. 00:34:05.946 --> 00:34:11.076 That is the highest expression of Christian sexual ethics, which in fact, a goodly number are already doing. 00:34:11.400 --> 00:34:15.866 I can find a compelling reason. I can't find a compelling reason to say no anymore. 00:34:16.838 --> 00:34:23.466 Right. So he says you can be gay and in a homosexual relationship and be a Christian. Yes. 00:34:26.956 --> 00:34:31.206 Those are the speakers. Those are the speakers that that's their personal views their personal 00:34:31.206 --> 00:34:37.526 view set written books about done other speaking events about they were invited to speak at the 00:34:37.526 --> 00:34:45.126 conference on I don't think I don't get the sense that they were given a blank platform. 00:34:46.707 --> 00:34:51.526 But it's also like, I don't really know. So I don't know the content of what they said or what 00:34:51.526 --> 00:34:57.206 exactly they were invited for and he did give some context in his response of saying like, 00:34:58.006 --> 00:35:05.810 wanted them to share their stories and wanted them to provide kind of um greater level of like, 00:35:06.836 --> 00:35:14.006 wanted to I guess his stated reason for having them there was to provide uh the parents with 00:35:14.006 --> 00:35:34.006 greater levels of understanding of what potentially their children are experiencing, or what they feel. And that was the main reason why he brought them there. That seems to be what Andy was intending to communicate when he responded. 00:35:34.006 --> 00:35:52.415 Right. Yeah. So that was, I think if I had to guess that that's probably one of the main issues is like, yeah. And I get it. I really get it because I don't agree with gushy. Right. I don't. 00:35:53.006 --> 00:36:02.926 I don't, especially when he says that that is the highest expression of Christian sexual ethics. 00:36:04.496 --> 00:36:09.166 For me, that ends the conversation, because you can't have a conversation about the highest 00:36:09.166 --> 00:36:13.646 expression of Christian sexual ethics without talking about the rightness or wrongness of 00:36:13.646 --> 00:36:18.366 homosexual practice. That is within a Christian sexual ethic. 00:36:18.366 --> 00:36:28.606 Right? Or, or the calling of singleness. Celibacy. Celibacy. Yes. And, and its place in Christian 00:36:28.606 --> 00:36:34.446 practice. Yes. So, which is a very obvious principle in the script of scripture. Yeah. 00:36:34.446 --> 00:36:39.811 A call to celibacy as being better if you're able. Jesus and Paul both talked about it. Right. So, 00:36:40.766 --> 00:36:45.306 So, um, so I don't agree and, uh, with Kashi. 00:36:45.826 --> 00:36:50.758 And so I think the question then is, huh. 00:36:52.982 --> 00:36:57.386 To what level of agreement must a pastor have? 00:37:00.310 --> 00:37:09.360 In order to allow someone to, for lack of a better term, speak behind their pulpit. 00:37:11.689 --> 00:37:24.679 Like what ends up being the litmus test of belief in order to like give permit, like, okay, Okay. 00:37:25.480 --> 00:37:28.478 Mm-hmm. Teach the people. Yeah. 00:37:28.730 --> 00:37:34.760 I will challenge that a little bit, just because it is a conference. 00:37:34.760 --> 00:37:39.118 It's not a Sunday morning. It's not to the general audience. 00:37:40.100 --> 00:37:44.120 I don't know. Tell me what you think about this. I'll just kind of make forth what I'm thinking. 00:37:44.120 --> 00:37:47.239 I don't know if I agree with this or not. 00:37:47.400 --> 00:37:55.880 So in my degree program when I was studying at Moody, loved my program there, benefited a lot from it. 00:37:55.880 --> 00:37:59.260 One of the critiques, I have a couple of critiques, but one of the critiques, particularly of 00:37:59.260 --> 00:38:06.480 my degree program, was that a lot of times my professors would hand us books by authors 00:38:06.480 --> 00:38:10.068 that we were meant to essentially wholesale agree with. 00:38:11.360 --> 00:38:17.640 So we would be handed a book, and we might agree or disagree with them a little bit, 00:38:17.909 --> 00:38:24.280 but very rarely did a professor inside of my pastoral degree program hand me a book 00:38:24.280 --> 00:38:29.040 and say, this is kind of a controversial take, but I want you to wrestle with the ideas that. 00:38:30.576 --> 00:38:30.920 Are in here. 00:38:30.920 --> 00:38:34.456 I did have professors who did that, but they were outside of my degree program. 00:38:34.560 --> 00:38:39.443 They were either in the philosophy department, theology department, or in a different department. 00:38:39.520 --> 00:38:43.680 Weren't dedicated to the pastoral department. A lot of the pastoral department was just kind of 00:38:43.680 --> 00:38:47.392 like, this is what I think is right. You should agree with most of what this book says, because 00:38:47.520 --> 00:38:55.600 I agree with it. And that was kind of the understood tenor. And in academia, I very much appreciate... 00:38:56.736 --> 00:39:08.106 Reading and hearing all sides. Mm-hmm. Like I'm an Enneagram nine. I Love like reading and understanding all of the all of the sides. So and there's something, 00:39:08.946 --> 00:39:19.946 particularly enlightening to reading somebody and understanding Their thought process and learning from someone who you disagree with on significant points, 00:39:20.706 --> 00:39:28.186 There's significant learning there I think if you if you are unable to learn from people who you. 00:39:29.046 --> 00:39:35.246 Don't agree with 100% then I think you're going to miss out on a lot of things and. 00:39:35.995 --> 00:39:43.486 I think at least my conceptualization my if I was to guess like if I were to put myself in Andy's shoes and say 00:39:43.881 --> 00:39:45.555 What reasoning would I have? 00:39:45.766 --> 00:39:59.486 Potentially to make the decisions that he made is I would say that there are, you know, a... what do these parents need to learn to grow, and do they 00:39:59.486 --> 00:40:07.946 need to be exposed to people who maybe they do not agree with, but have something that they can learn from? 00:40:07.946 --> 00:40:13.427 And is there room inviting them to say, hey, I'm not asking you to come here and bring 00:40:13.607 --> 00:40:20.766 your conviction, maybe, on theological—again, I'm making an assumption, but I'm not asking you to 00:40:20.766 --> 00:40:26.286 come and give your argument for your biblical interpretation of the Bible. I just want you to 00:40:26.286 --> 00:40:32.097 share your church experience. I want you to share what happened to you growing up, how that impacted 00:40:32.286 --> 00:40:38.846 you, and how that's made it difficult for you to maintain faith as you've grown up, or things like 00:40:38.846 --> 00:40:44.926 that, which could be really informative. So, I could kind of see an argument there for that, 00:40:44.926 --> 00:40:51.006 and it's being directed not at a general congregation, but at people who are very 00:40:51.006 --> 00:40:59.646 much facing that reality as it was. And so, I don't know, what do you think about that? Does that... 00:41:02.174 --> 00:41:07.824 Um, does that begin to approach what you were saying about what level of agreement do you 00:41:07.824 --> 00:41:13.264 need to have to share, uh, to let someone preach behind your pulpit or do you feel like 00:41:13.264 --> 00:41:14.885 I'm making too many concessions? 00:41:15.218 --> 00:41:23.424 Um, I think that the practice of exposing yourself to people that you don't agree with 00:41:23.424 --> 00:41:30.004 Um, is, um, is can be helpful. 00:41:30.171 --> 00:41:30.630 Mm. 00:41:32.565 --> 00:41:45.444 Um, I don't think it's a particularly wise thing to do in the, um, when we're 00:41:45.880 --> 00:41:49.256 dealing with issues that are, 00:41:50.984 --> 00:41:53.064 I would say, fairly settled in scripture. 00:41:56.584 --> 00:42:14.224 And while I would be fine with that happening fine with that happening in like a conference in a hotel or in a hotel or 00:42:14.224 --> 00:42:23.689 something like that. Yeah. My my position on the ministry of the word is that I, 00:42:24.617 --> 00:42:30.009 don't I'm not going to intentionally expose the people that I am pastorally responsible. 00:42:31.332 --> 00:42:38.702 For To things that I believe are firmly established as sin in Scripture just for the sake of their. 00:42:42.822 --> 00:42:51.222 Broadening the horizon's flexibility, right? Because which is the difference between church and academia, right? Because I think if you'd say okay, does that, 00:42:52.073 --> 00:42:55.170 Hold water. Would you say the same thing? Mm-hmm for, 00:42:57.062 --> 00:43:06.242 Something else that is Like what I bring an Aryan would you bring someone who who says that they do not believe? 00:43:07.182 --> 00:43:13.662 Adultery is Or like I'm a Christian swinger, 00:43:16.502 --> 00:43:21.880 Want you to come and just hear my right position or a Christian polygamist or 00:43:22.182 --> 00:43:29.676 polyamory, right We wouldn't do that. No What I wouldn't yeah, we wouldn't that's not intellectual honesty, right? 00:43:31.622 --> 00:43:42.182 And so And so no, I I wouldn't I wouldn't do that And in particular with this guy like this guy Duffy. I don't know him, 00:43:43.179 --> 00:43:44.854 Duffy's that his name gushy gushy. 00:43:47.815 --> 00:43:55.989 He was there not representing his personal story He was there representing what the, the, the, um, his 00:43:56.385 --> 00:44:01.302 assertions in his book, which a goodly number are, and I can, 00:44:01.302 --> 00:44:04.662 I can't find a compelling, compelling reason to say no. 00:44:05.022 --> 00:44:05.302 Right. 00:44:05.766 --> 00:44:08.702 Anymore. So he's making his case, you know? 00:44:09.622 --> 00:44:20.268 Um, and we, we, you know, we, we have dealt with similar with similar issues on a smaller scale here, which is like... 00:44:22.573 --> 00:44:27.423 What level, like, when does friendship. 00:44:30.503 --> 00:44:38.723 Or relationship or even participation in ministry equal affirmation of their belief? 00:44:38.903 --> 00:44:39.254 Yes. 00:44:41.183 --> 00:44:50.075 So, how deeply can I be in relationship with a person, maybe even inside of my own church? 00:44:50.863 --> 00:45:01.623 How much leadership can I give them, how involved in ministry can they be while maintaining a separation 00:45:01.623 --> 00:45:04.479 from the affirmation of what they believe, 00:45:06.263 --> 00:45:10.753 or maybe even what they practice, how their life is lived. 00:45:11.275 --> 00:45:16.010 And I think that there does become a tipping point. 00:45:24.185 --> 00:45:28.362 Even scripturally speaking, where we're not, you know, 00:45:28.823 --> 00:45:32.908 that we're not to associate with certain people, 00:45:33.718 --> 00:45:41.263 that bad company corrupts good character, that there is a system even for expelling. 00:45:48.143 --> 00:45:51.605 The immoral brother, as the scripture says, or even in Matthew chapter 18, 00:45:52.663 --> 00:45:57.663 Jesus is like, they can be put out of community 00:45:57.663 --> 00:46:15.903 because of a, a willfulness towards unrepentance for sin. And so there, and this, this said, this, 00:46:17.235 --> 00:46:26.687 speaks to a main theological value of Andy. One of the first things that he said was that, 00:46:27.038 --> 00:46:29.223 Listen Jesus didn't draw lines, 00:46:30.225 --> 00:46:32.530 He drew Jesus drew circles. Yeah, 00:46:34.105 --> 00:46:39.983 Which is really pithy. Oh, it's great. Um, everyone loves it. Everyone wants to be in the circle Donald preach, 00:46:42.583 --> 00:46:50.103 Right if you've ever if you've ever seen meet the parents, you know, yeah, Robert De Niro talks about the Burns family circle of trust, 00:46:51.023 --> 00:46:54.663 Either in it or you're out of it right here. We have the Jesus circle 00:46:54.927 --> 00:47:01.031 Yeah of inclusivity, right? Is it true in the Gospels that Jesus drew a, 00:47:01.783 --> 00:47:03.543 very wide circle, 00:47:04.506 --> 00:47:09.088 To include people that the religious community of the day. 00:47:11.167 --> 00:47:18.027 Ostracized. Yes, absolutely. 100%. 100%. He drew the circle wider than anyone ever had. 00:47:20.008 --> 00:47:24.538 Yeah. He's had down with tax collectors and sinners, prostitutes, right? Samaritans. And, 00:47:24.538 --> 00:47:30.378 you know, to Albert Mueller's point, yes. His podcast response to that, which was a very good 00:47:30.522 --> 00:47:37.018 point. Very good point. Jesus drew circles. Absolutely. He drew circles, but he also drew 00:47:37.018 --> 00:47:46.294 lines. He drew hard lines. Yeah, he did. He drew hard lines up into the point of eternal damnation. Depart from me for I 00:47:46.678 --> 00:47:50.378 did not know you. Yes, right. The sheep and the goats. Yeah, 00:47:50.418 --> 00:47:57.574 as an example, right? Or the ritual young ruler. What what what do I need to do? sell all of your possessions? Went away 00:47:57.646 --> 00:48:00.178 sad, right? Right. Didn't say oh, it's fine. 00:48:00.178 --> 00:48:06.252 Yeah. Come in the circle, right? So like the narrow door, right? 00:48:07.117 --> 00:48:14.049 Or the narrow gate. Yes. Like the, you know, the narrow path, narrow path that leads to life, but if you find it, 00:48:14.258 --> 00:48:18.910 right. But why does the road that leads to destruction and many follow it? 00:48:19.090 --> 00:48:19.938 Yes. 00:48:22.277 --> 00:48:26.098 So those are lines. They're both right. They're both correct. 00:48:26.098 --> 00:48:35.978 Yes. circles, but Jesus draws just as many lines and the lines are always with sin, repentance, 00:48:37.382 --> 00:48:46.058 a willingness to follow him. And so when it comes back to these, the speakers of the conference, 00:48:47.231 --> 00:48:55.818 are they in the circle or is there a line? And it's clear that Andy's willing to draw larger 00:48:55.818 --> 00:49:00.858 circles than maybe I would. Maybe Albert Mueller would. Maybe you would. I don't know. 00:49:04.698 --> 00:49:10.618 He may have a different perspective on the sharing of his pulpit than I do. I don't know. 00:49:11.312 --> 00:49:22.858 I think that the pulpit as an analogy for the ministry of the word is a sacred trust. 00:49:23.321 --> 00:49:27.462 And I think Andy is responsible for everything, ultimately. 00:49:30.198 --> 00:49:33.338 For the teaching, doctrine, faith and life of the congregation. 00:49:33.338 --> 00:49:34.178 Yeah, that comes out of North Point. 00:49:35.538 --> 00:49:39.538 I don't know how you get around that, Andy. Like, you might not be the person 00:49:39.538 --> 00:49:43.258 that says the words all the time, but you're still responsible, 00:49:43.258 --> 00:49:46.673 even if you're unaware of what's being said. Ultimately, you're responsible. 00:49:47.258 --> 00:49:50.698 You are the leader. So... 00:49:54.568 --> 00:50:04.158 So, yeah, I think that there's a I think that there's a significant issue there for me. Mm-hmm, and I think that I think probably, 00:50:05.677 --> 00:50:12.960 It'd be stupid to To think that Andy didn't calculate that He obviously did. Yeah, and. 00:50:14.760 --> 00:50:20.138 And obviously he calculated, you know, it was a calculated a risk that he was willing to take. Mm-hmm, 00:50:21.197 --> 00:50:27.458 Right. Because I like, if you listen to his talk, his primarily I like, I, you 00:50:27.458 --> 00:50:36.878 know, I see things from both perspectives. And but one of the things that I think is, you know, powerful about Andy's position, is he's like, what 00:50:36.878 --> 00:50:44.018 we've been doing has not been working, right? He is like, he gave some very 00:50:44.125 --> 00:50:49.578 compelling statistics up front, which I know statistics are, you know, 95% of 00:50:49.578 --> 00:50:57.418 statistics are just made up. But, you know, if those, if, you know, I imagine, I don't imagine 00:50:57.418 --> 00:51:03.178 he made those up. I don't mean to say that, but statistics can be convenient. So he said something 00:51:03.178 --> 00:51:10.835 along the lines of like, what, 70% of gays have left their faith or something like that. Like, 00:51:10.880 --> 00:51:14.868 there was a large number. The numbers are staggering. The numbers are staggering. The 00:51:15.018 --> 00:51:21.658 amount of people who now live in an alternative sexual lifestyle, who at one point had Christian 00:51:21.658 --> 00:51:28.058 faith and have now left it because of that sexual lifestyle. And he's like, this isn't good. What's 00:51:28.058 --> 00:51:35.498 happening isn't... he sees it as a problem. And he's like, what do we need to do to fix it? 00:51:35.498 --> 00:51:39.390 And I think he has, I do think that like in one regard. 00:51:41.047 --> 00:51:49.057 Because it's it's the if I think if I try and put myself in the frame that he's in and he's operating in this frame 00:51:49.057 --> 00:51:55.497 of parents and he makes it very clear that like and it's I agree with them it's a. 00:51:57.417 --> 00:52:04.435 Wisdom that you Ultimately, you cannot control what other adults do right? 00:52:05.245 --> 00:52:11.417 And that's where he I think a lot of the ministry that to the parents of people who are LGBT, 00:52:13.817 --> 00:52:20.337 Comes in and he's like you cannot convince control coerce. I think he you know some sort of, 00:52:21.817 --> 00:52:23.510 Alliteration that he had there, 00:52:24.834 --> 00:52:32.116 He's like you ultimately cannot control what your adult child chooses to do with their sexuality. 00:52:32.449 --> 00:52:40.561 It's ultimately their choice. And so, some of the language he uses is that of kind of boundary drawing, 00:52:40.714 --> 00:52:47.825 clear self-differentiation, saying like, I'm not responsible for what they do. 00:52:48.177 --> 00:52:55.177 I'm responsible for what I do. And he's saying, let me do things that maintain relationship, 00:52:55.177 --> 00:52:57.782 rather than destroy relationship. 00:52:57.957 --> 00:53:02.130 And so, and I don't think he ever leaves that framework. 00:53:03.437 --> 00:53:07.486 I think he stays in that framework for pretty much his entire talk. 00:53:08.597 --> 00:53:11.377 And I think that's one of the things that's kind of tricky about Andy's talk 00:53:11.377 --> 00:53:14.292 is because Albert Moeller is talking about... 00:53:15.571 --> 00:53:20.180 He's talking in a large philosophical, sociological context. 00:53:20.233 --> 00:53:25.920 I think Andy, even if you listen to his talk, aside for a handful of comments, it's almost 00:53:25.968 --> 00:53:32.120 entirely directed towards his local church, and his publishing of it is mostly just letting 00:53:32.120 --> 00:53:33.980 people listen into it. 00:53:34.140 --> 00:53:39.900 There wasn't very often that he turned and he talked, metaphorically I mean this, not 00:53:39.900 --> 00:53:45.053 very often that he metaphorically talked to the larger audience that wasn't in the room. 00:53:45.278 --> 00:53:52.020 I don't think Andy would have done that response if people in his church had not been affected 00:53:52.020 --> 00:53:55.780 by the public outcry. 00:53:55.780 --> 00:54:02.260 He largely frames it like, the reason I'm giving this talk is because you, my congregation, 00:54:02.260 --> 00:54:08.260 not Albert Moeller, not the news pundits, whatever, I'm giving this because you are 00:54:08.260 --> 00:54:13.014 confused, you're calling the office, some of you are leaving, some of you are angry, 00:54:13.340 --> 00:54:20.580 of you are shocked, and he didn't quite explicitly ask for forgiveness or apologize, but he seemed 00:54:20.580 --> 00:54:27.283 to make an admission, at least implied, that there was some misstep or oversight in the 00:54:27.580 --> 00:54:32.756 fact that they had not clearly communicated that this was a ministry that existed. 00:54:33.512 --> 00:54:37.020 Already. Already. For 10 years. For 10 years. 00:54:37.020 --> 00:54:40.363 So it was something that was at the church, but they hadn't made it very publicly known. 00:54:40.540 --> 00:54:47.420 It seems that they kind of connected people to the ministry quietly, and so a large amount 00:54:47.420 --> 00:54:52.380 of people didn't know this was going on, and then they felt shocked and confused and weren't 00:54:52.380 --> 00:54:53.425 sure what to do about it. 00:54:53.980 --> 00:54:59.727 And he perhaps... He doesn't quite explicitly admit guilt or responsibility there, but it's kind of implied 00:54:59.844 --> 00:55:04.260 that there was a misstep in not having that public. 00:55:04.260 --> 00:55:12.040 But so there's that question, and this is where, and we will probably have to turn this 00:55:12.040 --> 00:55:17.623 into a part two if we want to dive, really dive down into this rabbit hole. But anyway. Bye. Bye. 00:55:19.468 --> 00:55:27.399 Do you, like, where does that principle, because I agree, generally, with that principle of like, 00:55:28.795 --> 00:55:32.359 I cannot control what other people do, they're responsible for what they do, if they, 00:55:33.062 --> 00:55:39.159 I have my sexual ethic, I've told them about it, I've taught it, but it's ultimately their 00:55:39.159 --> 00:55:46.279 responsibility for what they will do with the truth. Right? That is a good thing. Good. It's 00:55:46.279 --> 00:55:52.519 a good thing to have in mind as a pastor, as a preacher, as a parent. It's great. At what point, 00:55:53.740 --> 00:56:00.759 does that become permissive and deny church discipline, accountability, and so forth? 00:56:01.914 --> 00:56:10.279 And Andy seems very, again, seems, from my perspective, seems to be willing to allow 00:56:10.279 --> 00:56:22.999 a wide variety of choice, despite explicit teaching, yeah. And some of 00:56:22.999 --> 00:56:26.879 that is potentially the dynamic of having such a large church. 00:56:29.047 --> 00:56:26.985 Thank you. 00:56:29.047 --> 00:56:36.097 But is that a negligence to Paul's command, do not associate with such a one? 00:56:38.563 --> 00:56:36.591 Right. 00:56:38.897 --> 00:56:45.617 That's where, for me, as much as I can empathize with Andy and some of the things that he says, 00:56:45.617 --> 00:56:50.274 and the framework that I think he's operating from, I get to that point, I'm like, I don't, 00:56:50.897 --> 00:56:57.537 know, at what point, you know, is someone coming to the church, listening to the teaching, and 00:56:57.537 --> 00:57:00.617 and saying, yeah, he disagrees with me. 00:57:00.617 --> 00:57:06.812 And like, yeah, I'm hearing the truth, but there's zero teeth, zero enforcement of it. 00:57:06.977 --> 00:57:15.004 They're powerless to do anything to not coerce, but hold accountability, to speak prophetically, 00:57:15.417 --> 00:57:17.569 to call forward into obedience. 00:57:19.057 --> 00:57:22.737 They have zero power to do that in my life. I'm just going to occasionally hear 00:57:22.737 --> 00:57:25.293 an uncomfortable message once in a while. 00:57:25.537 --> 00:57:32.396 And is that, that's a line that has been, I think, crossed or not drawn. 00:57:33.977 --> 00:57:39.357 Yeah, I have an agree is probably it's the fodder for part two. 00:57:41.146 --> 00:57:45.657 Yeah. Cause yeah, I think I have a note here to talk about the difference between, 00:57:48.977 --> 00:57:51.949 the progression that someone goes through in their discipleship, 00:57:53.191 --> 00:57:57.137 And how, what is the expectation of the speed at which. 00:58:03.357 --> 00:58:07.568 They move from point A to point B. Or even point A to point Z. Yeah. 00:58:08.357 --> 00:58:11.777 In order to be in our church communities. 00:58:13.277 --> 00:58:16.957 What do we expect of them? Like you walk through the door and three steps in, 00:58:16.957 --> 00:58:18.992 you better be repenting of every sin. 00:58:20.459 --> 00:58:24.123 You better be walking away from every decision that you've made, no matter the consequences. 00:58:25.950 --> 00:58:31.800 Or you cannot be a part of this community. Yeah. I, you know, and like, you know what I'm saying? 00:58:31.800 --> 00:58:36.120 Yeah, no, I know exactly what you have. So you have a, you know, a homosexual couple that walks 00:58:36.120 --> 00:58:42.520 in to your church and they have two kids they've adopted, right. Legally adopted, legally married, 00:58:42.520 --> 00:58:48.040 legally married because according to the state, whatever, and your response to them immediately 00:58:48.040 --> 00:58:52.760 is you must repent. You must get divorced. I don't know what's going to happen with the kids, 00:58:52.760 --> 00:59:02.680 but that's not our problem, you know? Or you can't be here to listen about the message of Jesus. 00:59:02.680 --> 00:59:02.920 Right. 00:59:03.967 --> 00:59:06.840 Like, I don't know what you expect us to do. That's just what the Bible says. Yeah. 00:59:07.487 --> 00:59:16.520 You know, so like, what are we asking of people? Right. What are we asking? There was a, I was, because I was curious, I was looking, 00:59:16.520 --> 00:59:23.313 I was trying to find, because church discipline is something that's rather vague in modern church. 00:59:24.402 --> 00:59:24.920 At least like... 00:59:25.563 --> 00:59:35.400 Or just, it just like, it's not readily practiced. Not readily practiced. I did find people who readily practiced it. I was listening to their 00:59:35.400 --> 00:59:40.360 podcast about it and their description of how they practice it. One church, they... 00:59:40.360 --> 00:59:41.939 It's a freaking mess, let's just say that. 00:59:42.200 --> 00:59:47.720 Yeah, they get up and they read a list of people who are not allowed to come forward 00:59:47.720 --> 00:59:49.546 and take communion every time they do communion. 00:59:49.760 --> 00:59:56.657 And they list the sin. They list the sin that they are being held accountable for and why they cannot come to 00:59:56.800 --> 00:59:57.297 comedian. 01:00:00.006 --> 01:00:07.576 So, I'm like, huh, um, I don't know, but, you know, what are you, like, I don't think 01:00:07.576 --> 01:00:10.296 that's, uh, don't think that's what Jesus meant. 01:00:10.296 --> 01:00:17.856 Um, I, you know, I don't think that that is clearly marked in scripture. Um, I don't know. 01:00:17.856 --> 01:00:21.776 And then I've got like an interesting question around like Jesus, because Jesus' statement 01:00:21.776 --> 01:00:30.623 in Matthew 18, where he talks about, he says, treat them as tax collectors and unbelievers, or... 01:00:31.976 --> 01:00:36.216 I don't remember the exact... Can't remember exactly. But the thing that I was thinking 01:00:36.216 --> 01:00:40.795 as I was reflecting on that text, I was like, well, wait, how did Jesus teach, treat those people? 01:00:41.516 --> 01:00:46.736 He had dinner with them. And so I was curious about the interpretation 01:00:46.736 --> 01:00:49.976 of that passage and applying what seems to be 01:00:49.976 --> 01:00:55.118 the immediate context of what Jesus seems to be saying, treat them as not one of you, 01:00:55.289 --> 01:01:00.376 but then Jesus' behavior was constantly to bring them closer into community. 01:01:00.376 --> 01:01:01.321 So, yes. 01:01:01.474 --> 01:01:04.346 To bring them closer to himself. Himself. That's where transformation happens. 01:01:05.327 --> 01:01:09.016 Right, yes. Right, so. Anyways, those are all things I wanna talk about. 01:01:09.016 --> 01:01:15.382 Yeah, well, one of the things that Andy says is like, hey, if your theology does not allow you to be in ministry 01:01:15.456 --> 01:01:19.118 to someone else, you might want to reconsider that theology. 01:01:19.376 --> 01:01:20.865 Yeah, right. 01:01:21.856 --> 01:01:27.216 So this is a complicated. That's a complicated thing. Right. 01:01:27.216 --> 01:01:28.787 But I think it's important to talk about. Mm-hmm. 01:01:30.796 --> 01:01:35.216 So maybe that's where we'll start next week. Yeah. Start with this idea of like, 01:01:35.216 --> 01:01:44.298 to what level of discipleship or sanctification must a person attain to in order to maintain. 01:01:46.944 --> 01:01:49.914 Membership in your, in your religious community. Yeah. 01:01:51.373 --> 01:01:56.394 And when, when, when is there exclusion from community? Right. 01:01:56.631 --> 01:01:58.754 At what point, at what point is there exclusion to community? 01:01:58.754 --> 01:02:00.196 And what are the consequences of that? 01:02:01.069 --> 01:02:03.554 What is the hope of that? What are the consequences of that? 01:02:03.674 --> 01:02:07.754 Yeah. Cause I think those two, there is a biblically described hope. 01:02:10.080 --> 01:02:14.874 Um, my contention is that people are never actually rooted in community. 01:02:15.995 --> 01:02:18.632 When that church discipline comes forward. 01:02:19.154 --> 01:02:22.089 So because they're not actually rooted, they just leave. Yes. 01:02:22.954 --> 01:02:30.569 And the hope is never realized because community hasn't been established in their life first. 01:02:30.714 --> 01:02:31.554 I see what you're saying. 01:02:33.405 --> 01:02:35.514 Yeah. Yep. I can see that train of thought. 01:02:37.394 --> 01:02:42.506 Well, thanks for listening. If you haven't heard about all this that's going on 01:02:42.634 --> 01:02:51.392 and you want to be a part of the conversation, you can go and we'll link all of this in the, 01:02:51.994 --> 01:02:52.954 all of this is linked in the show notes. 01:02:52.954 --> 01:02:56.181 It'll all be linked in the show notes. Yeah. You can read it in the description. 01:02:56.294 --> 01:03:00.834 Yep, the Unconditional Conference website, Andy's response, Al Mohler's response, 01:03:00.834 --> 01:03:02.554 Al Mohler's re-response. 01:03:02.905 --> 01:03:09.434 Yeah. And you can join the conversation with us. As always, if you have any questions or comments, please leave them. 01:03:09.434 --> 01:03:12.634 You can leave them in the show, in the comment section of the YouTube video 01:03:12.634 --> 01:03:18.474 if that's what you're watching, or you can always text us at 716-201-0507. 01:03:22.755 --> 01:03:29.957 And that's our The Uncut Podcast text line. And we'll try and deal with those questions accordingly. 01:03:30.389 --> 01:03:34.234 Like, rate, subscribe, share, all those things if you would, that'd be really helpful for us. 01:03:34.234 --> 01:03:36.493 Thanks for listening, catch you on the next one. We'll see you then.