WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:05.000 --> 00:00:06.109 Colin: Welcome to build and learn. 00:00:06.109 --> 00:00:06.820 My name is Colin. 00:00:07.399 --> 00:00:10.329 CJ: And I'm CJ and we're back again, just catching up on what we're 00:00:10.329 --> 00:00:11.820 working on, what we're learning. 00:00:12.399 --> 00:00:16.729 And we thought we might kick this one off with a little fitness update. 00:00:17.380 --> 00:00:22.459 So I, yeah, I mean, we, we talked about this a while ago and you 00:00:22.509 --> 00:00:26.649 as the listeners are holding us accountable to some fitness goals here. 00:00:26.709 --> 00:00:31.019 So Colin, you want to, yeah, why don't you give us a quick update on your fitness? 00:00:32.064 --> 00:00:36.384 Colin: Yeah, for me, I'm trying to do the James Clear consistency 00:00:36.414 --> 00:00:40.754 over you know, doing like these Herculean effort type things. 00:00:41.334 --> 00:00:47.244 So I have a plan, a training plan from Hal Higdon marathon training plan. 00:00:47.254 --> 00:00:51.484 So I'm gearing up for just it's a 30 week plan. 00:00:51.484 --> 00:00:55.924 So it's not like one of those, like do a marathon in 12 weeks type of thing. 00:00:55.934 --> 00:01:00.759 It's very slow burn gets you back into just like, Knocking off the 00:01:00.759 --> 00:01:05.049 runs and then you'll start getting into the more marathon training plan. 00:01:05.049 --> 00:01:12.399 So I'm hoping to do a marathon in September with a friend of the show one 00:01:12.399 --> 00:01:14.439 of our friends Calvin, up in Washington. 00:01:15.009 --> 00:01:18.889 And and then potentially one in December in Honolulu. 00:01:18.969 --> 00:01:20.379 CJ: Ooh, nice. 00:01:21.489 --> 00:01:23.149 Colin: be my first time down to Hawaii. 00:01:23.169 --> 00:01:28.829 So that's the plan and just trying to get into the habit of it, have the 00:01:28.829 --> 00:01:33.869 rhythm of it, you know, even if it's, if it's a three mile run, it doesn't 00:01:33.869 --> 00:01:35.299 need to be a fast three mile run. 00:01:35.299 --> 00:01:36.699 It just needs to be done. 00:01:36.839 --> 00:01:37.299 So 00:01:37.364 --> 00:01:37.574 CJ: hmm. 00:01:37.575 --> 00:01:38.094 Mm hmm. 00:01:38.109 --> 00:01:38.239 Colin: that. 00:01:39.094 --> 00:01:43.824 CJ: And what are the long runs in the first couple of weeks for that program? 00:01:44.789 --> 00:01:50.119 Colin: My first long run this last weekend was going to be seven miles. 00:01:50.339 --> 00:01:50.909 So 00:01:51.059 --> 00:01:53.869 it's, you know, you still do the long run on Sundays, the whole 00:01:53.879 --> 00:01:55.269 church of the long run type 00:01:55.269 --> 00:01:55.619 thing. 00:01:56.119 --> 00:02:00.359 And so it'll ramp up to eventually, usually you do like, eventually 00:02:00.359 --> 00:02:01.799 you get up to like 20 miles. 00:02:02.329 --> 00:02:05.889 a few, maybe four weeks before the actual marathon, and then you 00:02:05.919 --> 00:02:08.339 taper off into the actual thing. 00:02:08.339 --> 00:02:12.979 And so you don't need to have run a marathon before you go do the marathon. 00:02:13.519 --> 00:02:17.219 But yeah, just getting into that and trying to weave in a little bit of 00:02:17.269 --> 00:02:19.089 things like kettlebells and strength. 00:02:19.629 --> 00:02:21.709 A lot of working on the knees. 00:02:21.729 --> 00:02:23.119 They don't work like they used to. 00:02:23.119 --> 00:02:27.349 So making sure that they have the strength that they need to support 00:02:27.699 --> 00:02:29.029 myself through that whole run. 00:02:29.644 --> 00:02:30.294 CJ: Very cool. 00:02:30.724 --> 00:02:35.624 Is the, the marathon that's in Washington in November, is it, 00:02:36.094 --> 00:02:37.494 is it in Washington in November? 00:02:37.614 --> 00:02:38.094 I think I 00:02:38.339 --> 00:02:38.789 Colin: September. 00:02:38.789 --> 00:02:39.159 Yeah. 00:02:39.344 --> 00:02:39.904 CJ: or September. 00:02:39.954 --> 00:02:40.254 Okay. 00:02:40.274 --> 00:02:43.774 And is that one like a qualifying one for Honolulu or can you just go 00:02:43.774 --> 00:02:46.744 to Honolulu even if like, no, okay. 00:02:47.099 --> 00:02:47.309 Colin: Yeah. 00:02:47.309 --> 00:02:47.559 Yeah. 00:02:47.739 --> 00:02:48.389 They're separate. 00:02:48.419 --> 00:02:51.699 This one's just, you know, my brother wants to do the Honolulu one. 00:02:51.709 --> 00:02:56.769 So I'm training with him and then Calvin wants to do the one up by him. 00:02:56.769 --> 00:02:59.129 So I'm training with him for that one. 00:02:59.129 --> 00:03:01.289 And, and for me, their accountability. 00:03:01.399 --> 00:03:05.499 You know, once you pay for a race, once you have it in your calendar, you, you 00:03:05.499 --> 00:03:09.059 can't just be like in the 11th hour, decide like, Oh, I guess I should 00:03:09.059 --> 00:03:13.459 get ready for that, which is a good way to think of like a lot of goals. 00:03:13.469 --> 00:03:17.629 Like if you want to try to like write a book, you're not going to be like. 00:03:18.054 --> 00:03:21.434 Oh, I procrastinated until the 11th hour and then I wrote the whole book. 00:03:21.434 --> 00:03:22.884 Like it just doesn't work like that. 00:03:22.884 --> 00:03:24.234 So it's good. 00:03:24.264 --> 00:03:28.114 You know, I could just do things like there's the Spartan races and, you 00:03:28.114 --> 00:03:31.304 know, all those kinds of races and things, but it'll be good to like, 00:03:31.334 --> 00:03:36.294 keep myself accountable, keep them accountable and have it on the calendar. 00:03:36.774 --> 00:03:37.324 CJ: Nice. 00:03:37.364 --> 00:03:37.644 Yeah. 00:03:37.644 --> 00:03:42.394 I think the destination marathons are the ones that are most interesting and 00:03:42.394 --> 00:03:46.614 attractive to me because it's like, you've got, not only do you have like 00:03:46.614 --> 00:03:49.354 this big thing that you're planning for and you're prepping for, and you have 00:03:49.354 --> 00:03:53.844 it on the horizon, but all of that, like anticipation of like, Oh, it's going 00:03:53.844 --> 00:03:57.434 to be so cool to like fly there and be there and be in like a different place 00:03:57.434 --> 00:04:02.484 and experience like Hawaii after like all of this hard work and everything. 00:04:02.494 --> 00:04:03.764 So that seems. 00:04:03.939 --> 00:04:05.039 Like it would be awesome. 00:04:05.139 --> 00:04:08.729 On there's a instructor on Peloton that I really like Matt Wilpers. 00:04:08.779 --> 00:04:13.739 And he often talks about like, you know, plan out your year and make 00:04:13.739 --> 00:04:17.399 your trips like fitness related, or like have some thing that you're 00:04:17.399 --> 00:04:19.179 going to do fitness wise on a trip. 00:04:19.629 --> 00:04:22.339 And then even if you're not like going to do a race or something, 00:04:22.339 --> 00:04:27.089 you can still make it, you know, interrelated with your vacationing. 00:04:27.099 --> 00:04:29.749 And then you kind of like build your lifestyle around, like, you know, 00:04:29.769 --> 00:04:31.009 these healthy habits and things. 00:04:31.009 --> 00:04:31.609 And I don't know. 00:04:31.629 --> 00:04:35.019 It definitely, definitely seems attractive. 00:04:35.399 --> 00:04:35.909 So 00:04:36.209 --> 00:04:38.879 Colin: I think when you go on trips, they try to like, you know, depending on where 00:04:38.879 --> 00:04:42.639 you're going, there's all these like excursion options and like side things. 00:04:42.639 --> 00:04:47.889 And, you know, honestly going on hikes, even if they're like with guides or you 00:04:47.889 --> 00:04:51.699 know, doing some back country stuff, like it's a great way to see those places. 00:04:51.979 --> 00:04:53.309 They tend to be less touristy. 00:04:53.339 --> 00:04:56.689 They tend to be not super expensive to see, like kind of 00:04:56.699 --> 00:04:58.569 more of the local take of it. 00:04:58.609 --> 00:05:03.649 When we went on the offsite in Portugal for orbit, it was funny because like, 00:05:03.874 --> 00:05:07.874 We were with this like outdoor adventure team that was taking us on this thing. 00:05:07.874 --> 00:05:11.644 And like, it was very apparent that we all sit at a desk and work inside all day. 00:05:13.904 --> 00:05:16.724 Like some people are super stoked to be outside and doing things. 00:05:16.724 --> 00:05:18.534 And others were like are we there yet? 00:05:18.684 --> 00:05:19.264 We're done. 00:05:19.314 --> 00:05:19.534 We're 00:05:19.534 --> 00:05:20.714 ready to sit on the beach. 00:05:21.184 --> 00:05:22.234 So yeah. 00:05:22.594 --> 00:05:23.414 How about your update? 00:05:23.414 --> 00:05:24.514 How's things going for you? 00:05:24.964 --> 00:05:25.884 CJ: Things are going well. 00:05:25.884 --> 00:05:28.344 We've got our our accountability crew. 00:05:28.394 --> 00:05:30.804 We are in week seven of eight weeks. 00:05:30.814 --> 00:05:34.624 So we're doing like an eight week session and we're trucking along. 00:05:34.634 --> 00:05:39.314 We keep posting updates of every single meal and You know, our exercise 00:05:39.314 --> 00:05:40.274 routines and things like that. 00:05:40.274 --> 00:05:42.094 I think we've missed a couple here and there. 00:05:42.094 --> 00:05:44.674 And you always just trying to catch back up and get back on the train. 00:05:45.264 --> 00:05:48.254 So I am this past weekend. 00:05:48.254 --> 00:05:52.674 I waited in like two 16, which was down from like two 50 in the summer. 00:05:52.694 --> 00:05:54.844 So making tons of progress. 00:05:54.954 --> 00:05:56.794 And it's all just like consistency. 00:05:56.794 --> 00:06:00.524 Like you've got to kind of just show up and eat the right things every single day. 00:06:00.524 --> 00:06:08.634 And, I think that I've kind of found a pretty high protein diet that is 00:06:08.644 --> 00:06:11.854 sustainable, like relatively sustainable, which has been working really well 00:06:11.854 --> 00:06:15.044 for me, kind of just like it took me a while of like looking at every 00:06:15.044 --> 00:06:19.714 single thing I was eating and trying to figure out, you know, is this, or 00:06:19.724 --> 00:06:21.784 what is the protein content of this? 00:06:22.214 --> 00:06:22.954 What is the fat? 00:06:22.964 --> 00:06:27.604 Like, what are the macros of each meal or each like part of the meal and is there 00:06:27.604 --> 00:06:31.164 something I can swap out or swap in for something that's like a higher protein? 00:06:31.654 --> 00:06:35.864 And as a result, like yeah, I've kind of like narrowed in on a few dishes 00:06:35.874 --> 00:06:37.954 that I never would have had before. 00:06:37.954 --> 00:06:40.844 Like one is I'll have like Greek yogurt. 00:06:41.174 --> 00:06:44.774 In the morning, I'll have Greek yogurt with like scoops of protein powder, like 00:06:44.844 --> 00:06:50.294 plant based protein powder and flax seed and I just stir it all up and it sounds 00:06:50.294 --> 00:06:55.404 gross, but it's so good and it's just like become this, like, super high protein, 00:06:55.954 --> 00:07:00.714 like 30, it's like 35 grams of protein, very little net carbs, very little other 00:07:00.714 --> 00:07:06.254 stuff in it and it's really filling and so satiety is very high so doing that and 00:07:06.254 --> 00:07:13.174 then On the, like the exercise front doing a power zone challenge with on the bike. 00:07:13.194 --> 00:07:17.194 So we have like two 45 minute rides and then a long ride on the weekend. 00:07:17.194 --> 00:07:20.014 That's like between 60 and 120 minutes. 00:07:20.674 --> 00:07:26.874 And then five days a week I've been doing like a barbell, like dumbbell type 00:07:26.874 --> 00:07:33.824 strength training, just like a really low key, 30 minute a day, five day split. 00:07:33.934 --> 00:07:37.334 And, yeah, all of that seems to be working really, really well and 00:07:37.434 --> 00:07:41.214 yeah, feeling pretty strong and I'm really happy with the progress. 00:07:41.214 --> 00:07:42.464 So yeah, 00:07:42.494 --> 00:07:43.014 continue to 00:07:44.269 --> 00:07:46.429 Colin: I've been seeing your, your updates on Strava. 00:07:46.439 --> 00:07:48.449 So I can see you're out there doing it. 00:07:48.784 --> 00:07:49.274 CJ: nice. 00:07:49.294 --> 00:07:49.804 Nice. 00:07:50.014 --> 00:07:54.614 Yeah, I, I, it's like automatically hooked up to Peloton, which I love 00:07:54.624 --> 00:07:56.584 because it sends the rides along. 00:07:56.979 --> 00:07:59.739 And you know, like when you do like a strength workout, but I also 00:07:59.739 --> 00:08:02.959 use Peloton a lot for meditation and that like Postman's drama too. 00:08:02.959 --> 00:08:05.579 It's like, all right, CJ couldn't sleep that night. 00:08:05.579 --> 00:08:09.849 Obviously he did, like three meditations and like yeah. 00:08:10.124 --> 00:08:12.414 Colin: noticed, I mean, I've noticed that they were on there, but I'm not, I 00:08:12.414 --> 00:08:16.294 haven't, didn't notice what times they were posted, but, you know, it also shows 00:08:16.634 --> 00:08:20.024 the Strava TriHards that you're out there stretching and out there taking 00:08:20.024 --> 00:08:21.744 walks and out there, you 00:08:21.744 --> 00:08:24.914 know, it's not always maximum efforts, like, oh, I just did 00:08:24.914 --> 00:08:28.514 this super long bike ride or bike, you know, run, things like that. 00:08:28.514 --> 00:08:28.864 So 00:08:29.294 --> 00:08:31.304 it's another tool, another accountability thing. 00:08:31.404 --> 00:08:32.134 Which can help. 00:08:32.134 --> 00:08:36.164 So, and I think like, you know, we're, we're, we're talking about 00:08:36.164 --> 00:08:39.424 this fitness stuff to kind of also hold each other accountable too. 00:08:39.814 --> 00:08:45.804 And like diet, nutrition fitness is all super individual. 00:08:45.804 --> 00:08:49.730 So I'm glad that you found some things that you like that work for you. 00:08:49.730 --> 00:08:52.387 It's not going to work for everyone who's listening. 00:08:52.387 --> 00:08:54.159 It's, we're not a fitness podcast, 00:08:54.159 --> 00:08:54.454 but. 00:08:54.844 --> 00:08:56.344 We pretend to be one on TV. 00:08:57.024 --> 00:08:57.294 CJ: Yeah. 00:08:57.294 --> 00:09:02.154 And I think what's what does maybe resonate more with listeners 00:09:02.164 --> 00:09:05.304 is that it wasn't like clear. 00:09:06.034 --> 00:09:08.714 The answer wasn't clear for what to try or what to do. 00:09:08.744 --> 00:09:12.734 It was all very much like experimentation and learning and watching videos and 00:09:13.034 --> 00:09:16.304 trying to figure out which fitness influencers I believe and trust and 00:09:16.304 --> 00:09:19.834 you know, like reading these books about you know, And you know, white 00:09:19.834 --> 00:09:24.194 papers about different, like new research that's coming out about muscle 00:09:24.194 --> 00:09:29.504 protein synthesis and creatine and you know, should you take TRT or not? 00:09:29.504 --> 00:09:32.434 And like all these different things, you know, like so yeah, 00:09:32.574 --> 00:09:33.814 Colin: There's a lot of that right now. 00:09:33.864 --> 00:09:34.534 A lot. 00:09:34.704 --> 00:09:35.284 CJ: tons. 00:09:35.314 --> 00:09:36.034 There's tons. 00:09:36.034 --> 00:09:37.014 Yeah, totally. 00:09:37.454 --> 00:09:41.304 So yeah, one that's definitely on my list to research too, is like, what 00:09:41.304 --> 00:09:46.334 are the impacts of Ozempic and all of these like GLP one or whatever drugs 00:09:46.344 --> 00:09:50.224 that are supposed to be like You know, you get a shot and then you magically 00:09:50.224 --> 00:09:54.794 lose a bunch of weight and yeah, just trying to see how, how that's affecting 00:09:54.794 --> 00:09:59.674 people's like stomach longterm, you know, is it is it, you know, 00:09:59.674 --> 00:10:01.304 damaging their digestion or whatever. 00:10:01.304 --> 00:10:04.054 So yeah, lots of stuff to research and learn. 00:10:04.054 --> 00:10:07.674 And yeah, it's kind of like building your own health or 00:10:07.674 --> 00:10:09.674 something, but yeah, fun stuff. 00:10:10.144 --> 00:10:10.534 Colin: Yeah. 00:10:11.334 --> 00:10:15.084 Well, this is kind of around the consistency and like what we do every 00:10:15.084 --> 00:10:19.854 day kind of like defines what, where we spend our time and our identity. 00:10:19.854 --> 00:10:25.074 And this thing that keeps coming up in the podcasts I listen to and some videos 00:10:25.074 --> 00:10:28.994 I've been watching has been this like concepts that I'd be curious to get your 00:10:29.004 --> 00:10:34.384 take on of if you're busy creating things. 00:10:35.069 --> 00:10:40.999 You should spend less time consuming things or vice versa, like in a way it 00:10:40.999 --> 00:10:45.799 almost I think now that I said it out loud like casts like consuming as bad and like 00:10:45.799 --> 00:10:50.189 when you hear like mindless consumption or like doom scrolling and Instagram 00:10:50.189 --> 00:10:53.539 and tick tock like they want your time and attention, which means that you're 00:10:53.549 --> 00:10:59.379 probably not going out and making your own things, whether it's content or code or. 00:10:59.869 --> 00:11:01.799 Working out or whatever it is, right? 00:11:01.799 --> 00:11:03.349 It's, it's time and attention. 00:11:03.999 --> 00:11:07.559 I'd be curious, like, what do you think about that in terms of like, 00:11:07.939 --> 00:11:11.909 do the things that you consume help you to be a better creator? 00:11:12.329 --> 00:11:16.649 Are they kind of like the yin and yang of like, you know, inspiration and creation 00:11:16.659 --> 00:11:21.429 or, or like, Oh, too busy, too busy creating things in a little vacuum over 00:11:21.429 --> 00:11:23.089 here that you know, it can't be bothered. 00:11:25.209 --> 00:11:31.059 CJ: I, I need to think a lot more about this, but I, my gut reaction is that 00:11:31.149 --> 00:11:38.599 you have to consume a little to build like taste and it's important to see 00:11:38.729 --> 00:11:42.489 like what other people are doing to consider whether or not that's something 00:11:42.489 --> 00:11:44.269 you want to incorporate into your own. 00:11:44.374 --> 00:11:51.714 I don't think mindlessly scrolling is good or beneficial for like, for creation. 00:11:52.194 --> 00:11:55.814 I think if you go into it and you open up TikTok and you look at it and you 00:11:55.814 --> 00:11:59.414 say to yourself, I'm going to look at these TikToks because I want to 00:11:59.414 --> 00:12:02.114 see what they're doing to go viral. 00:12:02.734 --> 00:12:07.024 That is like a very different intention when you open the app than like, I'm 00:12:07.024 --> 00:12:11.554 bored or I'm tired or I'm anxious or I'm like, you know, like other 00:12:11.554 --> 00:12:16.054 reasons why you might like reach for a dopamine hit through through tick talk. 00:12:16.084 --> 00:12:19.474 And like it, those things are not good for you for sure. 00:12:19.484 --> 00:12:19.734 Right. 00:12:19.734 --> 00:12:21.794 Like the just mindless scrolling. 00:12:21.944 --> 00:12:26.484 But I think, yeah, if you can, if you're consuming intentionally to become a better 00:12:26.484 --> 00:12:31.119 creator, then I could see that, that would be totally positive and, and there's 00:12:31.129 --> 00:12:32.849 like absolutely a good way to do it. 00:12:33.479 --> 00:12:37.589 That said, I don't think anyone, or like, I would say most people are not 00:12:37.679 --> 00:12:43.849 mindfully consuming TikTok, Instagram, YouTube Shorts, or any of the, 00:12:43.989 --> 00:12:46.359 like, algorithmic feeds of anything. 00:12:46.839 --> 00:12:52.959 And yeah, personally, I have definitely fallen into a really unhealthy pattern 00:12:52.999 --> 00:12:57.659 of consuming mindlessly at night and like all the algorithms just want 00:12:57.659 --> 00:13:03.114 to show me like political shit now, and I'm like I'm very, very over it. 00:13:03.124 --> 00:13:09.054 Like I don't want to hear about political news and I just get sucked into it like 00:13:09.104 --> 00:13:13.254 on a daily basis where every time I open up any of the, these apps, it's just 00:13:13.254 --> 00:13:18.444 showing me like all of this junk like political propaganda stuff basically. 00:13:18.914 --> 00:13:20.929 And so it's definitely not good. 00:13:20.929 --> 00:13:22.074 And I'm also like. 00:13:22.754 --> 00:13:27.184 Trying to be better about when I open any of the social media apps. 00:13:27.184 --> 00:13:30.274 Like, what do I want to learn or what do I, like, how do I want to 00:13:30.274 --> 00:13:32.244 like grow from this experience? 00:13:32.644 --> 00:13:35.964 And so yeah, I'm trying to be a little bit better about it, but yeah, just 00:13:36.594 --> 00:13:43.059 throwing yourself off of the cliff into the algorithm is is definitely 00:13:43.119 --> 00:13:44.979 not, not the right way to go for sure. 00:13:45.039 --> 00:13:48.649 Colin: Yeah, and I think like with most things, I mean, you can use them as 00:13:48.649 --> 00:13:52.569 entertainment, like we don't need to open them every time with like, I must get 00:13:52.569 --> 00:13:57.749 something out of it, like that's useful in my work or whatever, but tends to be 00:13:57.749 --> 00:14:03.644 that like, if you mindfully say I'm going to watch a show or like, I think A lot of 00:14:03.654 --> 00:14:08.254 people are moving to watching things on YouTube that and like it used to be that 00:14:08.334 --> 00:14:12.404 YouTube videos were super long and they became shorter and shorter and shorter. 00:14:12.404 --> 00:14:17.214 And now some creators that I follow are like creating series of like 00:14:17.254 --> 00:14:21.664 pretty like 30, 40 minute, you know, adventure videos and things like that. 00:14:22.264 --> 00:14:24.434 And I watch those like I would watch. 00:14:24.664 --> 00:14:28.274 Like a tv show and I'll watch one and then walk away from it and not 00:14:28.274 --> 00:14:32.604 necessarily Get pulled into the the algorithm or the next video. 00:14:32.604 --> 00:14:38.334 I think watching YouTube on like a tv you don't have that sidebar as much 00:14:38.364 --> 00:14:43.184 of like next videos It still kind of happens, but it's it's not I don't think 00:14:43.184 --> 00:14:46.784 they spend as much time on that Like how do we get you to click on the next one 00:14:46.784 --> 00:14:48.574 as much as they've done it on the web? 00:14:49.204 --> 00:14:52.819 Or probably even But yeah, I hear you. 00:14:52.869 --> 00:14:55.509 I mean, it's really easy to fall into. 00:14:55.509 --> 00:14:59.579 I think the whole Senate hearing thing that happened recently, some, a lot of 00:14:59.579 --> 00:15:01.939 that was like kangaroo court around. 00:15:02.539 --> 00:15:06.359 They already had soundbites that they wanted to, you know, tell tick tock 00:15:06.359 --> 00:15:11.539 and meta and all these, but there is a lot of truth in the fact that they. 00:15:11.919 --> 00:15:13.589 want you to use it more. 00:15:13.969 --> 00:15:18.089 And so their, their motivations are not always aligned with like what 00:15:18.089 --> 00:15:22.409 our goals are for what we use those apps for, or like what's the job 00:15:22.409 --> 00:15:24.009 to be done with Instagram, right? 00:15:24.029 --> 00:15:29.659 It's a lot of it is ads now, which are very, very good and very targeted ads. 00:15:29.689 --> 00:15:35.454 But I've been wondering myself, like, how would I feel Less of an urge to 00:15:35.454 --> 00:15:37.784 buy things if I wasn't on social. 00:15:38.294 --> 00:15:43.674 And now I like witness the, like, Oh, this thing's easy to buy right now. 00:15:43.954 --> 00:15:47.404 If I want it, I'll write it down and see if I still want it. 00:15:48.094 --> 00:15:51.434 And usually if it comes from the internet, it's probably 00:15:51.434 --> 00:15:52.874 not, not something that I need. 00:15:53.424 --> 00:15:56.344 Yeah, so that's, that's a good one. 00:15:56.354 --> 00:15:58.514 I think something for everyone to think about at home, just. 00:15:58.579 --> 00:16:00.739 How much are you consuming? 00:16:00.919 --> 00:16:02.949 Do you want to be creating more? 00:16:03.239 --> 00:16:04.869 It doesn't have to be a public thing. 00:16:04.879 --> 00:16:06.829 It might even be a thing for yourself. 00:16:07.299 --> 00:16:09.199 Just kind of time, time and attention. 00:16:10.029 --> 00:16:10.429 CJ: Yeah. 00:16:10.459 --> 00:16:16.479 We've been, it's, it's, it's interesting too, when we try to help our kids 00:16:16.479 --> 00:16:21.259 learn how to be like thoughtful consumers and productive creators. 00:16:21.589 --> 00:16:27.459 Not like you don't, YouTube famous or anything, but like trying to 00:16:27.509 --> 00:16:29.669 help them understand that playing. 00:16:30.169 --> 00:16:34.069 Or like, yeah, consuming social media right now for them at their age, 00:16:34.179 --> 00:16:38.959 completely off limits, but there's also like a difference for them between playing 00:16:38.959 --> 00:16:46.639 certain games and watching, you know, documentaries and, and then like creating. 00:16:46.649 --> 00:16:49.079 And so we've tried to like carve up screen time into these. 00:16:49.424 --> 00:16:56.134 Different sort of scopes, maybe where if they are spending time on the computer to 00:16:56.144 --> 00:17:01.764 make a podcast or a video or a stop motion animation or to write a story or to draw 00:17:01.804 --> 00:17:04.384 or something like that, we feel much more comfortable with being like, yeah, sure. 00:17:04.384 --> 00:17:08.424 Like go be creative, use the tools, go 3D print stuff, go 00:17:08.424 --> 00:17:09.494 print things out, whatever. 00:17:10.064 --> 00:17:12.914 But if you want to just go on the computer and scroll through YouTube 00:17:13.234 --> 00:17:14.964 and watch people play video games. 00:17:15.129 --> 00:17:19.579 That in our opinion is like way less healthy than like, even 00:17:19.589 --> 00:17:21.789 if they were to just go and play the video game themselves. 00:17:21.819 --> 00:17:22.089 Right. 00:17:22.089 --> 00:17:26.709 Like they're at least like a little bit more engaged, but yeah, both like the 00:17:26.759 --> 00:17:28.649 yeah, just kind of garbage entertainment. 00:17:28.649 --> 00:17:32.789 That's trying to get them to buy stuff versus a little bit more 00:17:32.939 --> 00:17:36.029 thoughtful, like, okay, let's watch a documentary about space or something 00:17:36.169 --> 00:17:42.169 that we as parents have somehow deemed more valuable for their future. 00:17:42.269 --> 00:17:43.129 But yeah, I don't know. 00:17:43.129 --> 00:17:44.959 It's it's an interesting balance for sure. 00:17:45.159 --> 00:17:45.529 So, 00:17:46.189 --> 00:17:46.519 Colin: Yeah. 00:17:47.029 --> 00:17:51.649 Well, speaking of building things, what have you been working on building lately? 00:17:52.099 --> 00:17:52.959 CJ: Oh my gosh. 00:17:53.179 --> 00:17:57.199 So at work, we are we're building out a bunch of tools for calculating 00:17:57.209 --> 00:17:59.189 gross margin on projects. 00:17:59.599 --> 00:18:04.769 Lots of different calculators and estimators and caching data in certain 00:18:04.769 --> 00:18:06.744 places so that things render quickly. 00:18:08.344 --> 00:18:11.764 Also continuing to work on our messaging release for Twilio, 00:18:11.894 --> 00:18:13.504 which is coming along pretty well. 00:18:14.944 --> 00:18:19.964 And so we've been experimenting with like recording calls and routing calls 00:18:19.964 --> 00:18:21.424 and building all that kind of stuff. 00:18:21.474 --> 00:18:26.684 And then yeah, on the side, continuing to hack on buckets here and there. 00:18:28.134 --> 00:18:28.784 So buckets. 00:18:28.804 --> 00:18:30.374 cjav. 00:18:30.374 --> 00:18:35.514 dev, if folks are interested, it's going to be a little personal finance app. 00:18:35.774 --> 00:18:41.404 And yeah, like we, you and I chatted about this in all the different data providers. 00:18:41.424 --> 00:18:45.004 And it's funny watching Josh Pigford on Twitter, like just 00:18:45.004 --> 00:18:48.854 raging about how the data providers for all this financial data. 00:18:49.419 --> 00:18:53.479 There's like not one good one that will give you all the connections to all the 00:18:53.479 --> 00:18:57.619 banks and mortgage companies and you know, brokerage accounts and bank accounts 00:18:57.619 --> 00:18:58.809 and credit cards and all these things. 00:18:58.829 --> 00:19:03.509 And so went through the whole cycle of trying to integrate lots of 00:19:03.509 --> 00:19:08.299 different ones and then came full circle back to, back to Stripe. 00:19:08.299 --> 00:19:10.549 And it's still like, none of them are perfect. 00:19:10.729 --> 00:19:12.699 But it's been, it's been fun to hack on. 00:19:12.859 --> 00:19:13.149 So. 00:19:14.329 --> 00:19:15.249 Colin: Yeah, I've got it. 00:19:15.519 --> 00:19:19.509 Running on my machine too and I've been playing around with figuring out 00:19:19.509 --> 00:19:23.799 where I can be useful and what we can add to it and I think it's funny that, 00:19:23.879 --> 00:19:26.109 you know, as you've been tweeting about it, so many people are like, 00:19:26.589 --> 00:19:29.089 just use maybe just use Josh's thing. 00:19:29.109 --> 00:19:32.259 It's like, well, we have our own little thing going on over here. 00:19:32.674 --> 00:19:33.174 CJ: Yeah. 00:19:33.264 --> 00:19:33.654 Yeah. 00:19:34.394 --> 00:19:34.624 Yeah. 00:19:34.624 --> 00:19:41.244 It's partly, I mean, it's fun to scratch your own itch and it's also fun to have 00:19:41.244 --> 00:19:45.244 full control over it, you know, instead of it being like this open source thing 00:19:45.244 --> 00:19:51.144 where I definitely feel like Josh is going after like a global solution that has 00:19:51.754 --> 00:19:54.354 recently he's been talking a lot about like currency conversion and all these 00:19:54.354 --> 00:19:58.824 different features that will support a global solution, which I think is awesome. 00:19:58.894 --> 00:20:05.219 It's a great use case for, Open source and all these things to scratch our own itch. 00:20:05.459 --> 00:20:10.329 Like, I don't, I don't know about you, but I only have US dollars , so like currency 00:20:10.329 --> 00:20:14.369 conversion feature that can wait for you know, scale or something like that. 00:20:14.399 --> 00:20:15.089 So it's like, 00:20:15.824 --> 00:20:18.404 Colin: Well, and some people have been poking him on that about 00:20:18.404 --> 00:20:23.824 like, should you not make a fully complete system for USD first 00:20:24.214 --> 00:20:26.044 before you start going wide? 00:20:26.054 --> 00:20:30.424 And I, I actually think like following the journey of lunch 00:20:30.454 --> 00:20:35.704 money which is a budgeting tool, like they were digital nomads. 00:20:36.184 --> 00:20:37.504 Jen from from lunch money. 00:20:37.504 --> 00:20:42.034 It's built by one person and she was moving around the world being digital meds 00:20:42.064 --> 00:20:44.414 and it needed to be multi currency first. 00:20:44.624 --> 00:20:44.954 Like it's 00:20:44.954 --> 00:20:49.054 really hard to go back in and be like, let's tack on multi currency. 00:20:49.064 --> 00:20:50.644 Like it doesn't work well. 00:20:50.654 --> 00:20:54.754 So I think they're probably right in starting it first. 00:20:55.194 --> 00:20:57.974 But there was a lot of really interesting conversations around. 00:20:58.384 --> 00:20:59.999 I don't want you to convert it. 00:21:00.239 --> 00:21:03.439 the other currencies into my money, I want you to keep them 00:21:03.439 --> 00:21:06.889 in the currency that they're in because they're in that currency. 00:21:06.959 --> 00:21:10.899 And you lose little tiny amounts of rounding errors and 00:21:10.899 --> 00:21:12.409 things when you do conversions. 00:21:12.409 --> 00:21:17.239 And if it's sitting in another account in France, you know, in another currency, 00:21:17.239 --> 00:21:20.639 like keep it in that currency and just keep the balances going in that currency. 00:21:21.189 --> 00:21:25.339 And sure, you could do like a total net worth in USD or whatever you want. 00:21:25.689 --> 00:21:29.049 With my like a lot of my interest in personal finance, it's so interesting 00:21:29.069 --> 00:21:33.719 to think about like how easy and like for us it is to just think in U. 00:21:33.719 --> 00:21:33.889 S. 00:21:33.889 --> 00:21:34.299 Dollars. 00:21:34.299 --> 00:21:37.699 But like most people in other countries have to be thinking 00:21:37.699 --> 00:21:40.359 multilingual, multi currency, right? 00:21:40.379 --> 00:21:43.679 They have a lot of them have investments in U. 00:21:43.679 --> 00:21:43.849 S. 00:21:43.849 --> 00:21:44.509 Dollars in the U. 00:21:44.509 --> 00:21:44.609 S. 00:21:44.619 --> 00:21:48.459 Stock Exchange as well as their home countries or others 00:21:48.929 --> 00:21:50.359 a little bit more diversified. 00:21:50.389 --> 00:21:52.769 So it's a wild world. 00:21:53.259 --> 00:21:53.839 CJ: Totally. 00:21:54.569 --> 00:22:00.409 Yeah, I think yeah, maybe to paint a picture to like the initial idea was I, 00:22:01.309 --> 00:22:05.099 I mean, we both used mint for a long time to just like track balances and stuff. 00:22:05.139 --> 00:22:09.549 And we both use a different app for budgeting. 00:22:09.549 --> 00:22:12.199 So I use YNAB and you you're using co pilot. 00:22:12.824 --> 00:22:15.934 Shout out if they want to give us a affiliate link or something. 00:22:16.544 --> 00:22:18.754 Or yeah, we'll share, we'll share links to affiliate things. 00:22:18.754 --> 00:22:19.854 I'm sure we'll find them. 00:22:20.294 --> 00:22:23.824 So you can, you can try those out based on the show notes, but those 00:22:23.824 --> 00:22:25.104 are, those are great budgeting apps. 00:22:25.124 --> 00:22:28.724 I don't think what like we're trying to build as a budgeting app by any means. 00:22:28.724 --> 00:22:34.584 It's like, how can we look at our entire like financial wellbeing and 00:22:34.634 --> 00:22:39.154 make suggestions or adjustments or plans based on kind of where we're at. 00:22:39.324 --> 00:22:40.064 as a whole. 00:22:40.574 --> 00:22:44.574 And so, yeah, the idea of buckets is like you can put your, you can kind of 00:22:44.574 --> 00:22:47.474 like assign the money that's in different accounts into these buckets that you 00:22:47.474 --> 00:22:49.094 can track the balance of over time. 00:22:49.094 --> 00:22:52.814 So maybe you have an emergency fund and you have some goal 00:22:52.814 --> 00:22:53.834 for that emergency fund. 00:22:53.834 --> 00:22:56.704 So you can associate one of your accounts with an emergency fund and 00:22:56.714 --> 00:22:59.874 then see that in the dashboard as like your emergency fund bucket. 00:23:00.264 --> 00:23:03.404 Or maybe you have one that's like retirement and you have in your 00:23:03.404 --> 00:23:07.124 mind some number that you need for retirement that you want to retire 00:23:07.124 --> 00:23:08.434 early or whatever, like you can. 00:23:08.634 --> 00:23:13.624 have your retirement accounts roll up to and aggregate some 00:23:13.674 --> 00:23:15.534 balance over time for retirement. 00:23:16.024 --> 00:23:18.074 Same thing with real estate. 00:23:18.074 --> 00:23:21.874 And then all of that, obviously rolling up into some net worth calculation. 00:23:22.484 --> 00:23:26.914 One component of that is when you're tracking real estate assets over time, 00:23:26.924 --> 00:23:28.534 you want to try to get like, what is the. 00:23:28.694 --> 00:23:29.774 Estimated value. 00:23:29.774 --> 00:23:34.984 If you were to like sell this house today and Zillow has like a really 00:23:35.224 --> 00:23:39.904 legit data science team with pretty good estimates called Zestimates. 00:23:39.904 --> 00:23:43.764 It's like their little internal estimation thing or whatever. 00:23:44.244 --> 00:23:44.554 Yeah. 00:23:44.554 --> 00:23:45.084 Zesty. 00:23:45.154 --> 00:23:50.584 So Submitted we submitted some paperwork to try to like get access to their API. 00:23:50.614 --> 00:23:53.364 I have not heard back after the first kind of like back and 00:23:53.364 --> 00:23:54.494 forth with their support team. 00:23:54.494 --> 00:23:57.384 So if any, if we know anyone that works at Zillow, like 00:23:57.414 --> 00:23:57.654 let 00:23:57.694 --> 00:24:00.864 Colin: to say, we might need to like flex our DevRel muscle here. 00:24:00.894 --> 00:24:01.384 CJ: yeah, 00:24:01.714 --> 00:24:04.474 Colin: Who's the Zillow DevRel? 00:24:04.624 --> 00:24:07.054 CJ: videos and some shared content here. 00:24:07.564 --> 00:24:07.814 Colin: Just, 00:24:08.619 --> 00:24:10.539 CJ: But yeah, the rent cast. 00:24:10.549 --> 00:24:11.969 So rent cast is another API. 00:24:12.259 --> 00:24:16.229 We I think it was just bought by RealtyMole or RealtyMole bought 00:24:16.239 --> 00:24:17.349 rent cast or something like that. 00:24:17.859 --> 00:24:23.429 And we are using rent cast or we're using the RealtyMole API at Craftwork. 00:24:23.959 --> 00:24:26.519 And so I was like, Oh, like we can use that for now. 00:24:26.539 --> 00:24:30.119 And then I put in my own, like a couple of my own addresses and 00:24:30.119 --> 00:24:33.649 the property estimates were just like way off, like twice as much 00:24:33.649 --> 00:24:35.069 as I think they're probably worth. 00:24:35.119 --> 00:24:38.499 And so we'll have to figure that out, but yeah, you don't want your 00:24:38.669 --> 00:24:39.929 Colin: multiply them all by two. 00:24:40.299 --> 00:24:41.039 CJ: Yeah, exactly. 00:24:41.049 --> 00:24:42.019 Just, just double it. 00:24:42.019 --> 00:24:43.519 Just whatever, you know, like, 00:24:44.259 --> 00:24:44.639 Colin: Yeah. 00:24:44.679 --> 00:24:46.659 I think we've been, we've been thinking too small here. 00:24:46.659 --> 00:24:49.059 I think we should just get Zillow to sponsor the podcast. 00:24:49.089 --> 00:24:49.309 I think 00:24:49.539 --> 00:24:50.349 CJ: great idea. 00:24:50.869 --> 00:24:51.549 There you go. 00:24:51.589 --> 00:24:52.179 There you go. 00:24:52.969 --> 00:24:55.229 Colin: house Zillow. 00:24:56.209 --> 00:24:57.609 CJ: Didn't they do something like that? 00:24:57.659 --> 00:24:58.669 Or was that a different company? 00:24:58.679 --> 00:24:59.419 Redfin maybe? 00:24:59.419 --> 00:25:01.439 Or there was like some real estate property. 00:25:01.469 --> 00:25:02.169 It was Zillow. 00:25:02.549 --> 00:25:03.219 Colin: I don't know. 00:25:03.269 --> 00:25:06.049 I'm, I'm a Redfin fan myself. 00:25:06.099 --> 00:25:06.249 I 00:25:06.249 --> 00:25:06.939 do like that. 00:25:07.219 --> 00:25:08.569 I don't know why their app is just. 00:25:09.394 --> 00:25:12.734 Less cartoony feeling to me than Zillow, so I'm not sure why, I 00:25:12.734 --> 00:25:17.764 don't know if it's the colors or what, but yeah, Redfin, Zillow, 00:25:17.764 --> 00:25:19.534 give us access to your APIs, please. 00:25:19.889 --> 00:25:20.269 CJ: Yeah. 00:25:20.739 --> 00:25:23.019 I feel like there was a company, like one of those companies went 00:25:23.019 --> 00:25:27.059 out and bought a bunch of properties and then they couldn't unload them. 00:25:27.109 --> 00:25:27.439 like 00:25:27.599 --> 00:25:28.889 the, and they were like stuck with a 00:25:28.969 --> 00:25:30.159 Colin: They both did that. 00:25:30.159 --> 00:25:35.289 They both became like the I buyer type thing where they were the very thing that 00:25:35.659 --> 00:25:37.429 they realized that like the hell is data. 00:25:37.429 --> 00:25:40.369 So we could arbitrage and buy houses and then sell them. 00:25:40.689 --> 00:25:43.079 You can still list your house with Redfin. 00:25:43.089 --> 00:25:46.159 So it like, it's like using. 00:25:47.239 --> 00:25:52.529 But Redfin is your agent and they get like a special marking on the UI that's like 00:25:52.529 --> 00:25:57.339 listed by Redfin and they probably have like lower fees or something like that. 00:25:57.699 --> 00:26:04.149 Man, but like in 2007 I worked on building out and this is before a 00:26:04.149 --> 00:26:06.869 lot of these APIs existed on this. 00:26:06.939 --> 00:26:09.059 There was this idea to build a website. 00:26:09.354 --> 00:26:13.044 You could sell your house to like, if you needed to move tomorrow, you 00:26:13.044 --> 00:26:17.014 could just get like kind of what you've done with craftwork, like 00:26:17.024 --> 00:26:20.674 get inspections and get all these different things done in one place. 00:26:21.184 --> 00:26:24.994 And there's so many steps when you buy and sell a house from inspections 00:26:24.994 --> 00:26:27.664 and escrow and all that kind of stuff. 00:26:27.704 --> 00:26:29.954 And unfortunately, this was like before. 00:26:30.499 --> 00:26:34.349 Any of these things, Zillow, Redfin, and it was just too far ahead of its 00:26:34.349 --> 00:26:37.319 time because we were trying to figure out, like, how do we send a text message 00:26:37.319 --> 00:26:41.789 to these people who only take text messages and phone calls and fax machines 00:26:41.789 --> 00:26:48.039 and like, just automate it via paper, but with texts and facts and stuff 00:26:48.039 --> 00:26:51.979 like that, and you know, and that's very much what Redfin and Zillow did. 00:26:51.979 --> 00:26:54.829 And then they, like you said, they found it really hard to actually, 00:26:55.059 --> 00:26:58.549 they were stuck with a lot of inventory and couldn't actually make. 00:26:58.949 --> 00:27:03.149 Money on those houses, even though houses have gone up in crazy value. 00:27:03.149 --> 00:27:08.469 So yeah, it turns out pure technology is, has more margins there. 00:27:09.124 --> 00:27:09.564 CJ: Yeah. 00:27:09.624 --> 00:27:10.234 Interesting. 00:27:10.424 --> 00:27:10.954 Interesting. 00:27:11.094 --> 00:27:17.654 So yeah, maybe the someone needs to make a bad ass course about 00:27:17.674 --> 00:27:19.574 how to buy and sell houses. 00:27:20.164 --> 00:27:23.454 Speaking of bad ass courses, you see that transition, 00:27:23.909 --> 00:27:25.379 Colin: all the segues today. 00:27:26.624 --> 00:27:27.934 CJ: your segues were on point. 00:27:27.934 --> 00:27:30.074 I had to make like a, just as the cheesiest one. 00:27:32.034 --> 00:27:34.332 Colin: Yeah, so I've, I've been binging a lot of course creation, 00:27:34.332 --> 00:27:38.734 dev rel, docs type content. 00:27:38.764 --> 00:27:43.514 So back that maybe that was where the consuming versus creating kind of came in. 00:27:44.094 --> 00:27:47.494 I'm sure it was mentioned multiple times, but one that stuck out to 00:27:47.494 --> 00:27:52.604 me was badass courses with Joel hooks really good podcast for 00:27:52.604 --> 00:27:54.794 course creators and course builders. 00:27:54.794 --> 00:27:59.684 And I actually think the podcast is called course builders with Greg rogue 00:27:59.774 --> 00:28:03.284 it's, I think it's their first episode, raising the bar for online learning. 00:28:03.334 --> 00:28:06.594 And what I really liked about the episode was they both are 00:28:06.594 --> 00:28:08.384 video course creators and. 00:28:08.714 --> 00:28:10.754 platform creators as well. 00:28:10.764 --> 00:28:16.024 Like they both, both Joel and Greg run their own course platforms. 00:28:16.044 --> 00:28:19.864 Greg actually runs two two different ones, two different code bases. 00:28:19.894 --> 00:28:25.054 And the really big question that they posed at the top of it was how 00:28:25.154 --> 00:28:28.934 do you actually approach sitting down to learn a new complex topic? 00:28:28.934 --> 00:28:31.894 So they both are video course creators. 00:28:32.354 --> 00:28:36.364 And I think their answer was kind of interesting that both of them 00:28:36.364 --> 00:28:38.384 are actually, they learn by reading. 00:28:38.914 --> 00:28:43.664 And so their, their, their own favorite method of learning 00:28:43.664 --> 00:28:45.704 is a little bit different than the stuff that they put out. 00:28:46.094 --> 00:28:49.344 So yeah, I'd be curious just to hear what your approach is 00:28:49.344 --> 00:28:50.964 to sitting down to a new thing. 00:28:51.399 --> 00:28:56.259 CJ: I'm jealous because I, I wish that reading was my like priority version 00:28:56.259 --> 00:28:58.599 of learning, but usually it's video. 00:28:59.019 --> 00:29:03.929 And so it like, that basically means that like the videos that I make are just 00:29:04.279 --> 00:29:08.699 like lower quality versions of the other videos I've seen online or something, you 00:29:08.699 --> 00:29:10.979 know, like a collection of other videos. 00:29:11.329 --> 00:29:15.099 Yeah, no, I think like, first of all, learning by learning 00:29:15.099 --> 00:29:16.259 a topic by reading is. 00:29:16.839 --> 00:29:23.219 Obviously going to be very, very important for any career because most content will 00:29:23.219 --> 00:29:25.309 be available as written word, right? 00:29:25.309 --> 00:29:29.549 Like if there's documentation about an API, it will be written documentation. 00:29:29.559 --> 00:29:34.419 There's probably 2 percent or less of information available about how to 00:29:34.419 --> 00:29:36.089 use an API is going to be available. 00:29:37.259 --> 00:29:42.789 And so when, yeah, like learning a complex topic I guess like most of my experience 00:29:42.789 --> 00:29:44.329 in this case comes through Stripe. 00:29:44.779 --> 00:29:45.879 A lot of it would be. 00:29:46.654 --> 00:29:51.104 Read through the docs with a super fine toothed comb because Docs writers 00:29:51.114 --> 00:29:53.284 often try to be as concise as possible. 00:29:53.334 --> 00:29:58.514 And so there might be one sentence on a giant docs page that has the answer 00:29:58.514 --> 00:29:59.764 for something that you're looking for. 00:30:00.304 --> 00:30:02.674 So yeah, just trying to be like really, really thorough when 00:30:02.674 --> 00:30:03.694 you're reading through things. 00:30:03.724 --> 00:30:07.074 And then second is like trying stuff out. 00:30:07.104 --> 00:30:11.244 So just getting really quick at trying quick starts, following 00:30:11.264 --> 00:30:12.844 instructions and tutorials. 00:30:13.214 --> 00:30:14.784 And then also like. 00:30:15.104 --> 00:30:18.594 Yeah, I think I, I guess like recently too, I've been kind of like 00:30:18.654 --> 00:30:22.054 leaning a lot on chat GBT where I'll say like, okay, here's the pieces 00:30:22.064 --> 00:30:26.004 that I think I understand what, where, where are my blind spots? 00:30:26.054 --> 00:30:27.454 And then how would you do this? 00:30:27.884 --> 00:30:30.094 And then give me some alternatives to how you would do it. 00:30:30.644 --> 00:30:34.664 And then trying to like think through the implications of those has kind of been a, 00:30:34.674 --> 00:30:36.944 a little bit of a new approach, but yeah. 00:30:37.724 --> 00:30:38.314 What about you? 00:30:38.324 --> 00:30:40.244 How are you approaching these kinds of things? 00:30:40.264 --> 00:30:40.744 huh. 00:30:41.034 --> 00:30:44.604 Colin: Yeah, I think, they brought up that it really depends on the thing that 00:30:44.604 --> 00:30:46.324 you're learning, which I would agree with. 00:30:46.984 --> 00:30:51.614 And part of that would be, like you said, what's available to learn with. 00:30:52.084 --> 00:30:54.974 ChatsDBT is definitely a new part for me. 00:30:55.194 --> 00:30:59.534 Not just telling it what I know or having it explain it, but I'll sometimes 00:30:59.534 --> 00:31:04.564 take, like, if it's extremely technical, I'll copy technical documentation 00:31:05.294 --> 00:31:06.884 and say, Okay, explain this. 00:31:07.269 --> 00:31:08.059 in a different way. 00:31:08.079 --> 00:31:11.689 Like I'll say, explain it like I'm 10 which is always funny when you, if you 00:31:11.729 --> 00:31:16.819 do the explain it like you're five, they like comes up with like very kid focused 00:31:16.819 --> 00:31:18.759 like metaphors and analogies and things. 00:31:18.799 --> 00:31:21.429 But you know, that can help to break it down. 00:31:21.779 --> 00:31:25.819 Tragedy is also really good at summarizing things and like, say 00:31:25.819 --> 00:31:27.569 like, give me steps or bullet points. 00:31:28.069 --> 00:31:32.059 And I don't know how much when you tell it to do that, how much it's 00:31:32.059 --> 00:31:33.749 still trying to pull from the outside. 00:31:34.009 --> 00:31:34.319 Right. 00:31:34.319 --> 00:31:35.999 And versus what it's been given. 00:31:36.529 --> 00:31:39.619 So that you always got to take that with a grain of salt and make sure it's 00:31:39.619 --> 00:31:41.129 not hallucinating and things like that. 00:31:41.669 --> 00:31:45.579 But for me, I would say like, I definitely like to go find a video like 00:31:45.579 --> 00:31:48.769 you do and just being able to do it. 00:31:48.809 --> 00:31:52.949 I think learning by doing is, is like, if there's a sample project, a quick 00:31:52.949 --> 00:31:57.209 start guide, pull down the tutorial, get clone, whatever it needs to be. 00:31:57.219 --> 00:32:00.649 And I just need to like, get it running and then maybe 00:32:00.669 --> 00:32:01.649 change some things to get it. 00:32:02.089 --> 00:32:06.149 to fail or break and then put it back and just kind of poke at 00:32:06.149 --> 00:32:08.759 the edges to see what's possible. 00:32:09.099 --> 00:32:11.949 I've been doing that a lot with the thing that I'm documenting right now 00:32:12.259 --> 00:32:16.649 because it's like the team that built it, we still can't talk about it. 00:32:17.039 --> 00:32:18.159 The, the team that built it. 00:32:19.144 --> 00:32:23.024 It knows it in and out, but I need to know it in and out to document it. 00:32:23.034 --> 00:32:28.684 And so I'm using it, breaking it, fixing it, thinking like, okay, all 00:32:28.684 --> 00:32:31.534 these things that I already know, do they still apply to this thing? 00:32:31.544 --> 00:32:33.664 Or is this like a new thing that I need to think 00:32:33.674 --> 00:32:33.974 about? 00:32:34.504 --> 00:32:39.624 And to your point, you know, how do we avoid having one very crucial, important 00:32:39.624 --> 00:32:43.414 line buried in the bottom of the docs instead of like, these are the things 00:32:43.414 --> 00:32:44.784 you should know before you start. 00:32:45.294 --> 00:32:50.444 So, that's been interesting and in a, I think like an episode or two 00:32:50.444 --> 00:32:53.124 from now, we'll actually get to talk about the thing, which will be 00:32:53.204 --> 00:32:53.714 CJ: Nice. 00:32:53.974 --> 00:32:54.374 Yeah. 00:32:55.224 --> 00:33:02.174 So when you're thinking about these complex topics and yeah, I guess learning 00:33:02.174 --> 00:33:06.624 a complex topic, like saying complex topic to me is what is throwing me a little 00:33:06.624 --> 00:33:09.264 bit because a lot of like a lot of the stuff that we're working with, a lot of 00:33:09.264 --> 00:33:14.504 the API clients, a lot of the like SDKs and things, they're not that complex. 00:33:14.874 --> 00:33:16.284 It's when they're like, Yeah. 00:33:16.444 --> 00:33:20.004 For me, at least it's when they explode out into like bigger domains. 00:33:20.234 --> 00:33:23.194 So for one example would be like Stripe Connect. 00:33:23.194 --> 00:33:27.764 When you start like trying to facilitate payments on behalf of other people, and 00:33:27.794 --> 00:33:32.634 you know, as a platform like Lyft or Airbnb or whatever that kind of a topic 00:33:32.654 --> 00:33:36.994 where like, okay, using the SDKs is fine, but you also need to know like, here's 00:33:36.994 --> 00:33:40.484 all these different concepts and hold them in your head, like as you're going. 00:33:40.974 --> 00:33:41.654 And. 00:33:42.149 --> 00:33:48.409 Yeah, I guess in, in, in that sense, oftentimes, like when you're reading a 00:33:48.409 --> 00:33:53.109 book, right, like you can kind of get the main points as you go, or like you can 00:33:53.109 --> 00:33:56.959 be entertained as you go, but at the end, you're not going to get a quiz on it. 00:33:56.959 --> 00:33:57.229 Right. 00:33:57.269 --> 00:33:59.959 And when you read through technical documentation, and there's lots of 00:33:59.959 --> 00:34:04.219 different concepts, you almost need to like, Sometimes I, I definitely need 00:34:04.219 --> 00:34:08.179 to go back and like reread it several different times to just build in my head. 00:34:08.179 --> 00:34:11.419 Like what is the mental model for all these different components 00:34:11.419 --> 00:34:12.289 and where do they fit in? 00:34:12.289 --> 00:34:16.649 And like, what step in the flow are they involved in and trying 00:34:16.649 --> 00:34:18.329 to draw analogs to other things. 00:34:18.509 --> 00:34:24.529 So great, like couple great examples, the Twilio conversations API, like they have 00:34:24.529 --> 00:34:30.409 this conversation, the concept of the conversation, which is a set of messages 00:34:30.409 --> 00:34:32.879 between multiple different parties. 00:34:32.909 --> 00:34:35.579 And those are all conversation participants. 00:34:36.019 --> 00:34:39.069 So you have to like make API calls to create the conversation to create 00:34:39.069 --> 00:34:40.339 the conversation participants. 00:34:40.819 --> 00:34:45.649 But as a separate thing, you can create a conversation user Which can 00:34:45.659 --> 00:34:49.259 be a participant in a conversation user represents like, Oh, I'm a 00:34:49.259 --> 00:34:52.269 salesperson or a support person that works at the company that is going to 00:34:52.269 --> 00:34:56.099 like, you know, Act on behalf of the company in certain ways or whatever. 00:34:56.099 --> 00:34:59.219 And so those can also have roles and like all these different things. 00:34:59.219 --> 00:35:02.969 And it took me a long time going through the docs over and over and over and being 00:35:02.969 --> 00:35:06.809 like, why can't I just use conversations and conversation participants? 00:35:06.809 --> 00:35:08.189 Why do I need this like, other thing? 00:35:08.719 --> 00:35:13.309 And yeah, so I guess for me, maybe that's because I'm reading isn't my 00:35:13.309 --> 00:35:16.399 primary, it's like just I have to go over it over and over and over. 00:35:16.729 --> 00:35:17.669 So, yeah. 00:35:17.759 --> 00:35:17.839 I 00:35:17.849 --> 00:35:20.289 Colin: Did they have any diagrams and things, or 00:35:20.859 --> 00:35:21.699 models 00:35:22.329 --> 00:35:27.249 CJ: I did not see diagrams, but that probably would have been helpful. 00:35:27.329 --> 00:35:27.769 Yeah. 00:35:29.649 --> 00:35:32.279 Colin: Yeah, I think the other thing to think about is that we've been 00:35:32.279 --> 00:35:37.389 doing this for so long too that like I realized the other day Do 00:35:37.389 --> 00:35:40.059 you remember when Oath was hard? 00:35:40.839 --> 00:35:41.399 Or is 00:35:41.759 --> 00:35:42.189 CJ: Right. 00:35:42.189 --> 00:35:42.439 Right. 00:35:42.439 --> 00:35:42.629 Right. 00:35:42.629 --> 00:35:42.879 Right. 00:35:43.429 --> 00:35:44.939 Colin: It kind of still can be 00:35:45.309 --> 00:35:47.259 because there's so many flavors of it But 00:35:47.369 --> 00:35:47.789 CJ: Right. 00:35:47.919 --> 00:35:48.359 Yeah. 00:35:48.879 --> 00:35:51.229 Colin: I was working on something in one step. 00:35:51.299 --> 00:35:56.159 It was like step step five do Oath and someone was like What? 00:35:56.659 --> 00:36:00.029 Like, this is like the, this is like the draw a circle and now draw 00:36:00.029 --> 00:36:01.459 the rest of the owl, and you're 00:36:01.459 --> 00:36:05.089 like, no, no, no, to me, doing the OAuth was only one step, but to 00:36:05.089 --> 00:36:06.439 them, like, that's its own guide. 00:36:06.819 --> 00:36:08.799 And I'm like, yeah, you're, you're right. 00:36:08.919 --> 00:36:10.199 And we have a guide on that. 00:36:10.669 --> 00:36:14.589 But for this, it is the tiniest, this is the beginning point. 00:36:14.599 --> 00:36:15.359 Like, if you 00:36:15.369 --> 00:36:19.419 do not, it's a prerequisite to understand OAuth to do this next thing. 00:36:19.779 --> 00:36:24.149 And so we do have to remember not to take, you know, into account like our, the 00:36:24.149 --> 00:36:28.609 curse of knowledge that we have when we think about these things, but there was, I 00:36:28.609 --> 00:36:33.099 remember having to like have this picture of a lot in my head and like this happens 00:36:33.109 --> 00:36:34.319 and then there's this handshake and 00:36:34.809 --> 00:36:40.689 where do I keep this thing and now it's very automatic or like a lot of the SDKs. 00:36:41.099 --> 00:36:42.339 Do it for you now, 00:36:42.619 --> 00:36:46.819 but it's important to know how it works because when it breaks, you 00:36:46.829 --> 00:36:48.119 need to understand how it works. 00:36:48.119 --> 00:36:51.439 So that's something I've just been trying to remind myself more about 00:36:51.439 --> 00:36:55.749 is that, like, how do we keep the beginner's minds when you're learning? 00:36:55.759 --> 00:37:00.149 And then now when you learn the next thing, you're not starting from zero, 00:37:00.149 --> 00:37:03.039 you're starting from a new starting place. 00:37:03.239 --> 00:37:03.669 CJ: hmm. 00:37:04.439 --> 00:37:04.609 Yeah. 00:37:04.609 --> 00:37:08.739 I guess another thing that comes to mind sort of is using friction logging as 00:37:08.739 --> 00:37:11.709 yeah, as a way to start conversations about how things should work. 00:37:12.159 --> 00:37:16.349 So especially when you're on a DevRel team and you're providing 00:37:16.349 --> 00:37:18.939 product feedback to the product team. 00:37:19.544 --> 00:37:22.014 One way to do that is in these things called friction logs, where you 00:37:22.014 --> 00:37:25.674 just like write out your stream of consciousness of you trying to solve a 00:37:25.674 --> 00:37:28.074 problem with the tool that was built. 00:37:28.574 --> 00:37:32.834 And sometimes as you go through that, the product team will be like, Oh, 00:37:32.944 --> 00:37:36.994 whoa, like we, this is not what we expected people to think about that 00:37:36.994 --> 00:37:39.954 part of the documentation or that part of the API or SDK or whatever. 00:37:40.544 --> 00:37:43.934 And so let's have a conversation about that and try to make the 00:37:43.944 --> 00:37:45.704 developer experience better. 00:37:46.054 --> 00:37:48.304 Sometimes it's also like, Oh, I was just being. 00:37:48.709 --> 00:37:52.199 Like dumb and I missed or like completely misunderstood how 00:37:52.199 --> 00:37:53.139 that was supposed to work. 00:37:53.619 --> 00:37:58.249 But yeah, it can, yeah, writing a stream of consciousness to try to explain what 00:37:58.249 --> 00:38:00.499 you were thinking when you're trying to build something and then show it to the 00:38:00.499 --> 00:38:05.659 person, like the team responsible for building that can, it can also lead to 00:38:05.659 --> 00:38:07.919 some fruitful conversations and learning. 00:38:09.384 --> 00:38:09.804 Colin: Totally. 00:38:10.799 --> 00:38:11.189 CJ: Yeah. 00:38:12.114 --> 00:38:12.614 Colin: All right. 00:38:12.614 --> 00:38:16.034 Well, I think we can tease this one for next time, but we can 00:38:16.034 --> 00:38:17.124 talk about it a little bit. 00:38:17.184 --> 00:38:22.744 There's been a lot of conversation about Campfire and the kind of one 00:38:22.754 --> 00:38:25.614 time, once business model of Campfire. 00:38:25.614 --> 00:38:28.924 We talked about it a few episodes ago and like, we're curious to 00:38:28.924 --> 00:38:31.184 see how it went and it went live. 00:38:31.184 --> 00:38:32.044 It got sold. 00:38:32.514 --> 00:38:35.344 The numbers that were kind of thrown around. 00:38:35.669 --> 00:38:41.489 A few weeks ago was that it had only sold, had only, in quotes, sold like a 00:38:41.489 --> 00:38:46.249 thousand copies or so, that's probably more now, but some people have just 00:38:46.249 --> 00:38:50.169 been, you know, armchair experting about whether or not that was a success or not. 00:38:50.249 --> 00:38:54.544 Basecamp is You know, such a big company and being able to release this. 00:38:54.554 --> 00:38:56.734 It's like kind of what, what is the motivation for this? 00:38:56.734 --> 00:38:58.994 Do they think it's the true business model? 00:38:59.414 --> 00:39:03.934 Ultimately it seems like a lot of people bought it just to see the code. 00:39:04.534 --> 00:39:07.764 and we went ahead and bought it so that we could see the code. 00:39:07.764 --> 00:39:10.464 So we'll definitely, we're going to be looking at it. 00:39:10.894 --> 00:39:15.054 And then we'll talk about it in a, in the next episode, but yeah, I 00:39:15.054 --> 00:39:16.304 mean, what do you think about this? 00:39:16.304 --> 00:39:19.974 Do you think that people actually want to host this themselves? 00:39:19.974 --> 00:39:23.064 Do you think that there's like this appetite that you want 00:39:23.064 --> 00:39:24.194 to have a server somewhere? 00:39:25.044 --> 00:39:29.454 CJ: I don't think anyone, well, I mean, I'm sure there's going to be some 00:39:29.454 --> 00:39:32.914 people, but I, I would guess that the majority of people who've bought it so 00:39:32.914 --> 00:39:38.494 far are just interested in looking at the code that DHH wrote, or was kind of 00:39:38.494 --> 00:39:40.844 like responsible for in, in some way. 00:39:41.444 --> 00:39:48.844 And I, I'm really excited that this is available and also like. 00:39:49.089 --> 00:39:55.749 In the same way, watching the maybe code base evolve and, you know, getting to 00:39:55.759 --> 00:40:00.079 read this, getting to read the jumpstart pro source, getting to read you know, 00:40:00.079 --> 00:40:02.779 there's, there's a few other like open source rails projects that have been 00:40:02.779 --> 00:40:04.949 kicking off that seem really interesting. 00:40:04.949 --> 00:40:08.559 And so I'm, I'm just really excited that there's more. 00:40:08.559 --> 00:40:13.561 And then there are full rails applications that are going to be available some 00:40:13.561 --> 00:40:17.891 for free and some for money that you can go and read and see how other 00:40:17.891 --> 00:40:19.011 people are approaching problems. 00:40:19.011 --> 00:40:22.061 Because I think for a long time there, there really weren't any, right. 00:40:22.061 --> 00:40:26.261 It was like, you could see some toy apps online or, you know, some read 00:40:26.261 --> 00:40:31.061 blog posts, but you couldn't really dig into a full application source. 00:40:31.861 --> 00:40:37.621 Some company had used to actually run and execute their entire business. 00:40:37.721 --> 00:40:40.471 Maybe there, maybe there are some but yeah, I think that's like 00:40:40.471 --> 00:40:41.631 the most exciting part about it. 00:40:42.647 --> 00:40:42.987 Colin: Yeah. 00:40:42.987 --> 00:40:46.157 Well, and whoever bought it, I think it already, it happened once. 00:40:46.157 --> 00:40:50.267 I'm not sure if there's plans to do it again, but DHH did a walkthrough 00:40:50.267 --> 00:40:52.177 of the code for anyone who bought it. 00:40:52.627 --> 00:40:56.377 And I, some people were saying like, If you want to think of this as a course, 00:40:56.377 --> 00:40:58.527 like it's cheaper than some courses. 00:40:58.567 --> 00:41:03.747 It's code written by DHH and team who created Rails. 00:41:03.787 --> 00:41:08.787 Now, you know, obviously now Rails is more than just DHH and it's a community effort. 00:41:08.827 --> 00:41:13.567 But if you want to see how, you know, DHH thinks about some 00:41:13.567 --> 00:41:16.037 of these things, that's what's motivating a lot of people to do it. 00:41:16.517 --> 00:41:20.357 I think they're doing a walkthrough around the CSS and design with 00:41:20.357 --> 00:41:22.337 one of their designers coming up. 00:41:22.337 --> 00:41:23.287 So it's, it's interesting. 00:41:23.287 --> 00:41:23.927 It'd be almost. 00:41:24.402 --> 00:41:24.752 Very. 00:41:25.042 --> 00:41:28.862 I would be curious to get recordings of those now that I have a copy of the code. 00:41:29.382 --> 00:41:33.162 And it could be sold as a course if and people can still host it 00:41:33.162 --> 00:41:34.812 themselves the way that it comes. 00:41:35.202 --> 00:41:39.472 It comes with an install script that installs docker. 00:41:39.972 --> 00:41:43.522 And downloads the code and all of that onto the server that it's meant for. 00:41:43.912 --> 00:41:47.352 And they're using like license keys and things like that. 00:41:47.822 --> 00:41:52.802 I'm mostly interested in, in looking at the hotwire and stimulus side of things. 00:41:53.302 --> 00:41:58.952 I don't think that there's like a mobile version necessarily, 00:41:59.012 --> 00:42:02.782 like using like hotwire and turbo native and all that stuff. 00:42:03.202 --> 00:42:06.672 But I could see that becoming a thing in the future. 00:42:06.727 --> 00:42:07.357 Two. 00:42:07.807 --> 00:42:12.417 My first pass of the code, there is a bunch of stuff in there for bots, and 00:42:12.417 --> 00:42:14.907 I remember the OG campfire had bots. 00:42:14.907 --> 00:42:19.107 Like it was, it was ahead of the time, you know, it was people were leaving 00:42:19.107 --> 00:42:23.727 IRC to go to campfire before Slack and before teams and all these other tools. 00:42:24.087 --> 00:42:25.737 So I think those things might happen. 00:42:25.742 --> 00:42:30.127 I just don't know because they're not getting recurring revenue and they're 00:42:30.127 --> 00:42:32.287 not gonna be able to resell like, hey. 00:42:33.417 --> 00:42:37.557 Here's a DLC like is there gonna be like a 20 add on to get bots and integrations, 00:42:37.557 --> 00:42:42.507 but a lot of people use integrations with slack and you're not going to go 00:42:42.507 --> 00:42:46.506 see like can't fire show up in Zapier for instance, you know, you're gonna have 00:42:46.507 --> 00:42:51.607 to make some HTTP requests to your own API, but we'll have to dig into the code. 00:42:51.607 --> 00:42:53.767 I haven't looked to see like, is there an API? 00:42:54.207 --> 00:42:57.507 I imagine That there is, or at least like some sort of webhook 00:42:57.517 --> 00:42:58.927 ingest or something like that. 00:42:59.551 --> 00:43:03.171 CJ: And is it that they just kind of like took a snapshot in time and 00:43:03.171 --> 00:43:07.251 they're selling it as is at a certain version or is it getting updates? 00:43:07.501 --> 00:43:08.541 Like, how does that work? 00:43:09.777 --> 00:43:14.947 Colin: From what I've seen, they've mentioned that it's major version. 00:43:14.987 --> 00:43:19.447 So you'll probably get whatever versions come from this, but they could 00:43:19.507 --> 00:43:21.797 potentially say like Campfire 2 is ready. 00:43:21.797 --> 00:43:23.787 And we redid the whole thing. 00:43:23.797 --> 00:43:27.947 And to be clear, this is not the original Campfire that they packaged 00:43:27.947 --> 00:43:30.237 up from 2008 and threw over the fence. 00:43:30.267 --> 00:43:31.697 Like it was rebuilt. 00:43:32.087 --> 00:43:33.177 There's some things that. 00:43:33.467 --> 00:43:37.607 You know, I wonder, I'm sure they use it internally because they're a 00:43:38.147 --> 00:43:44.607 decent sized team with like having been in large communities in Slack 00:43:44.637 --> 00:43:46.037 and then now working at discord. 00:43:46.037 --> 00:43:51.577 I'd be curious to see like some of their design choices around like having. 00:43:52.037 --> 00:43:54.297 Avatars and who's in the server, like going horizontally. 00:43:54.837 --> 00:43:59.167 If you have over even a hundred people, like scrolling sideways, 00:43:59.217 --> 00:44:01.817 a hundred times is, is rough. 00:44:02.237 --> 00:44:06.057 What does pagination look like when you have thousands of people in a campfire? 00:44:06.397 --> 00:44:09.787 What do rooms look like when you have that many people and notifications 00:44:09.797 --> 00:44:10.677 and all that kind of stuff? 00:44:10.677 --> 00:44:16.887 So yeah, chat apps are challenging, like you've got persistence and you've got, 00:44:17.547 --> 00:44:21.087 you know, I think one of the benefits of this is that you don't have the problem 00:44:21.087 --> 00:44:24.487 that you have with slack where you can't, if you're on free slack, you don't get 00:44:24.487 --> 00:44:27.617 more than 30 days of message retention. 00:44:27.627 --> 00:44:32.567 So if you're really wanting to have a quote unquote free, as long as you 00:44:32.567 --> 00:44:37.027 maintain it solution, it does seem like a pretty cool thing that you can run. 00:44:37.537 --> 00:44:38.597 And if you're a fan of. 00:44:39.042 --> 00:44:42.286 37 signals, then you have another thing to look at. 00:44:44.546 --> 00:44:47.566 CJ: it's interesting because we are building internally, we're building 00:44:47.566 --> 00:44:52.076 like this customer support interface that is very much a chat app. 00:44:52.116 --> 00:44:57.266 It's just, well, like customers will receive the messages as SMS or as email, 00:44:57.776 --> 00:45:03.206 but internally it has like, you know Like bot integration, where we're generating 00:45:03.606 --> 00:45:07.556 responses with different AI tools and then being able to like auto complete. 00:45:07.556 --> 00:45:10.366 And we have like our own little mini co pilot thing going on. 00:45:10.986 --> 00:45:17.176 And the, as a team, we decided to build a lot of that and react just 00:45:17.176 --> 00:45:20.526 because it was like a little bit more interactive on the front end. 00:45:20.556 --> 00:45:23.736 And so looking, I'm kind of curious to see, you know, inside 00:45:23.736 --> 00:45:26.436 of campfire, how are they solving all these things without react? 00:45:26.446 --> 00:45:28.716 And they're just kind of using stimulus and hotwire and. 00:45:29.336 --> 00:45:34.706 They're able to build a world class sort of solution without too much JavaScript or 00:45:35.166 --> 00:45:38.946 so it sounds like, yeah, be cool to see. 00:45:40.047 --> 00:45:40.567 Colin: Totally. 00:45:41.667 --> 00:45:42.697 I'm excited to dig into it. 00:45:42.697 --> 00:45:46.137 It sounds like even for some of those like bot things it might be interesting 00:45:46.137 --> 00:45:49.917 to look at for you guys to see if there's any, anything to inspire there. 00:45:49.917 --> 00:45:56.247 And you know, I'm, I'm still curious to see how all these things Work 00:45:56.257 --> 00:46:00.177 with, I don't think this project uses tailwind because they don't want to 00:46:00.177 --> 00:46:03.487 use all the dependencies and things, but like, I'm always curious to see 00:46:03.487 --> 00:46:08.097 like the front end, both design and JavaScript or lack of JavaScript. 00:46:08.607 --> 00:46:13.487 If not needed to do like these live updates and refreshes and HTML over 00:46:13.497 --> 00:46:14.917 the wire and all that kind of stuff. 00:46:14.917 --> 00:46:17.667 So stoked to dig in. 00:46:18.246 --> 00:46:18.796 CJ: Totally. 00:46:20.046 --> 00:46:23.196 That's probably a good spot to wrap it up as always. 00:46:23.196 --> 00:46:24.736 You can head over to build and learn. 00:46:24.736 --> 00:46:27.796 dev to check out all the links and resources in the show notes. 00:46:27.806 --> 00:46:31.776 And we will yeah, drop some affiliate links to budgeting 00:46:31.776 --> 00:46:33.156 tools you can go sign up for. 00:46:33.816 --> 00:46:34.306 So, 00:46:34.717 --> 00:46:35.237 Colin: All right. 00:46:35.467 --> 00:46:36.817 We'll see you next time. 00:46:37.326 --> 00:46:37.636 CJ: All right. 00:46:37.646 --> 00:46:38.146 Bye friends.