WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:06.640 Music. 00:00:06.634 --> 00:00:13.764 I'm Pastor Luke, I'm Pastor Cameron, and this is the Uncut Podcast, where we have 00:00:13.863 --> 00:00:18.764 uncut, honest conversations about faith, life, and ministry. 00:00:19.102 --> 00:00:25.804 Today, we're just kind of sitting in here, don't have like too much of a plan of what 00:00:25.804 --> 00:00:29.364 we're going to talk about, but we're going to have a little bit of a plan. 00:00:29.364 --> 00:00:33.272 We have like a topic that we just kind of tossed, but I don't know what I'm going to say about it yet. 00:00:33.444 --> 00:00:42.644 So I don't really know either. We were talking with someone in the congregation yesterday who shared that they had some questions 00:00:42.644 --> 00:00:44.324 about something that was going on. 00:00:44.324 --> 00:00:49.524 They had some questions about baptism and the process of baptism and stuff like that. 00:00:49.524 --> 00:00:58.124 And then they, I don't want to say stumbled upon, but a lot of their questions ended up 00:00:58.124 --> 00:01:01.884 being answered in the podcast episode that we did. 00:01:01.884 --> 00:01:04.609 I think it's called Water and the Spirit. I'm not sure what episode it was, 00:01:04.888 --> 00:01:07.604 but that we talked about baptism. 00:01:07.604 --> 00:01:12.984 And so her encouragement to us, which I think was valid and a good idea, 00:01:12.984 --> 00:01:21.443 was that we would use this platform sometimes, not all the time, but sometimes to be able to have 00:01:21.569 --> 00:01:26.817 maybe a little bit deeper excursus on the things that are going on here at Conduit 00:01:27.204 --> 00:01:32.957 or in the church in general, maybe those of our listeners who attend Conduit. 00:01:34.748 --> 00:01:40.600 Can have a little bit better picture, insight into what we're doing. 00:01:40.744 --> 00:01:41.914 Or no, it wasn't baptism. 00:01:42.104 --> 00:01:46.037 It wasn't baptism. It was communion liturgy. It was communion liturgy, that's right. 00:01:46.184 --> 00:01:49.224 Yes, it was communion liturgy. She was like, why are we doing this? 00:01:49.224 --> 00:01:51.439 I don't get why we're doing this. What's the point? 00:01:51.624 --> 00:01:56.525 And then she listened to the podcast episode on communion and on liturgy. 00:01:57.544 --> 00:02:04.504 And was like, oh, okay, I'm in. Yeah, well, and my hope, I think, also too, 00:02:04.504 --> 00:02:11.541 is that sometimes we kind of get into things that are more oriented in our philosophy of ministry, 00:02:11.829 --> 00:02:18.344 like why, how, why do we choose to do things in a particular way in the ministry here? 00:02:18.344 --> 00:02:22.404 And so even if you're not at this particular church, you're not at Conduit with us, 00:02:22.404 --> 00:02:23.982 you're somewhere else and you're listening, 00:02:24.585 --> 00:02:30.464 I hope those provide context for you to reflect on how you're conducting your own ministry, 00:02:30.464 --> 00:02:34.397 how you're interacting with your church, just a deeper, 00:02:36.513 --> 00:02:40.492 gives you some deeper reflection to how you bring that into where you're practicing faith. 00:02:40.704 --> 00:02:48.584 Right. Yeah, because not everyone, we're not all given the opportunity to see. 00:02:50.313 --> 00:02:55.323 One of the things that she said and it's this episode it's not about what she's our meeting 00:02:55.323 --> 00:02:59.543 That's lady because it was a very encouraging very helpful for us, 00:03:00.823 --> 00:03:09.803 but one of the things that she one of the Conversation loops that we had was around she brought this thing to us and we're like, yeah, 00:03:10.307 --> 00:03:17.343 We've been talking about that for weeks now and here are some like steps that are being taken and like and it was 00:03:17.343 --> 00:03:21.380 And her response was like, oh yeah, I guess you guys, 00:03:22.163 --> 00:03:23.783 you do think about this stuff. 00:03:23.783 --> 00:03:32.083 I'm like, well, really, it's difficult for us to think about anything other than this stuff. 00:03:32.083 --> 00:03:39.781 And you don't always get to see or get to hear all of the conversation or thought or prayer, 00:03:40.375 --> 00:03:47.963 or failed attempts or new ideas or old ideas that are tried in order to do things or address things. 00:03:49.083 --> 00:03:57.677 But, and I've said this to people before, it's like, if you see something within the church 00:03:57.848 --> 00:04:03.826 you either like or you don't like, or as a frustration point, or like a feature. 00:04:05.483 --> 00:04:14.917 Or like, I would almost guarantee you that it is like, that I'm aware of it too. 00:04:15.880 --> 00:04:24.003 Yeah. Very, very, very rarely is there like a issue that I'm like, oh my gosh, I was so aware. 00:04:24.003 --> 00:04:32.323 No idea. No, like, like it is, you know, we're, all those issues tend to be kind of front 00:04:32.323 --> 00:04:34.353 and center in our minds, so. 00:04:34.524 --> 00:04:35.352 It is like. 00:04:36.603 --> 00:04:45.092 You know, modern church is so complex. Like, there's so many different things that like, 00:04:45.677 --> 00:04:49.071 I mean, in some ways, it's not complex. And in some ways, it's complex, right? Like. 00:04:50.332 --> 00:04:55.173 What we're doing, the main things haven't necessarily changed, but the way churches 00:04:55.173 --> 00:05:02.053 function has like, ballooned. And, you know, I was talking, I think I was talking with you a 00:05:02.053 --> 00:05:09.813 couple weeks ago, and it had been a week where I had to do a lot of writing and a number of 00:05:09.813 --> 00:05:14.773 teaching. I think I taught Monday night and wrote Monday night, taught and wrote Wednesday night, 00:05:14.872 --> 00:05:19.886 taught and wrote Sunday. And I was just like, how did preachers used to do the rhythm of 00:05:20.291 --> 00:05:26.213 preach Sunday morning, preach Sunday night, preach Wednesday night? And your response was just like, well, that was... 00:05:26.323 --> 00:05:31.653 That's all they did. That's all they did. I was like, oh, well, maybe that's doable. Still a lot. 00:05:32.669 --> 00:05:36.613 Yeah. But there's just so many other things that end up crossing our desks. 00:05:37.566 --> 00:05:44.293 Yeah. Right. Yeah. It feels to me, in fact, I just posted something on Instagram about it. 00:05:44.930 --> 00:05:55.393 But it feels to me like there is a pressure, a cultural shift, sometimes even a shift within 00:05:55.393 --> 00:06:07.393 the church for pastors to be organizational professionals primarily and shepherds if they 00:06:07.393 --> 00:06:10.393 have time. 00:06:10.393 --> 00:06:21.253 Lead the organization, cast the vision, organize the mission, allocate resources, hire the 00:06:21.253 --> 00:06:31.933 right staff, do all of the like CEO responsibilities, and then if you have time when you're done 00:06:31.933 --> 00:06:38.062 doing all that important stuff, it wouldn't be a bad idea if you met and prayed with people 00:06:38.368 --> 00:06:43.148 or you visited the sick, or you met one-on-one. 00:06:45.513 --> 00:06:49.633 With someone who's wanting to go deeper in their relationship with Jesus and you read the Bible together 00:06:49.633 --> 00:06:55.157 and studied the Bible together, or you offered counseling or spiritual soul care for people. 00:06:55.814 --> 00:07:00.833 If you have time, do all that stuff, but make sure you get to the organizational nuts and bolts. 00:07:01.108 --> 00:07:05.833 Yeah, pastor as CEO, pastor as a startup guru, 00:07:05.833 --> 00:07:13.018 guru, pastor is like, you know, like there's, you can put pastor as and fill in the blank. 00:07:13.657 --> 00:07:18.313 And like, there's a, yeah, pastor is entrepreneur, right? 00:07:19.085 --> 00:07:23.993 Like those are molds that pastors have been kind of thrust into. 00:07:23.993 --> 00:07:26.134 There's a little bit of it that I think. 00:07:27.664 --> 00:07:32.643 Has overflowed into idolatry like an idolatry of leadership. Yeah. 00:07:36.703 --> 00:07:47.434 Now that's not to say that, you know, we should settle for being poor Leaders. No, no, like because there's that like like I know you and I both, 00:07:48.694 --> 00:07:54.654 read listen to interactive leadership content and are consistently trying to grow in our 00:07:54.833 --> 00:07:56.778 our leadership skills. 00:07:56.934 --> 00:08:04.134 Right. The danger being though, is that like, we would overemphasize that in our own self 00:08:04.134 --> 00:08:05.894 and neglect the primary thing. 00:08:05.894 --> 00:08:13.576 Yeah, like how much time are we spending listening to leadership podcasts versus like spending time in the word 00:08:13.814 --> 00:08:15.494 just personally or ourselves? 00:08:15.494 --> 00:08:20.454 Like I could fall under some serious conviction about that if someone leveled that question to me. 00:08:20.454 --> 00:08:28.520 No one's going to though, right? You know, I think that's real, so... 00:08:28.714 --> 00:08:34.137 One of the things that we were talking about this morning is the difficulty or... 00:08:34.354 --> 00:08:51.554 Yeah, I'll call it the difficulty of balancing a pastoral heart and approach. 00:08:51.554 --> 00:08:56.554 With also the feeling of necessity, really, 00:08:57.660 --> 00:08:59.811 to get things done. 00:09:00.394 --> 00:09:00.694 Yeah. 00:09:05.394 --> 00:09:11.055 So an example for us would be, and this is a real life example for us, 00:09:11.274 --> 00:09:19.157 is, okay, so we have, here at Conduit, we have a pretty substantially attended kids ministry, 00:09:19.877 --> 00:09:27.334 on Sunday mornings. Up to a third of our worshiping attendance on a Sunday is kids 12 and under. 00:09:28.970 --> 00:09:38.152 And that demonstrates a large allocation of human resources on a Sunday morning, meaning 00:09:38.566 --> 00:09:46.934 we need a lot of volunteers. Unless we wanna stick all 50, 60 kids in one big room and just say, 00:09:46.934 --> 00:09:53.494 run amok. Wow. And still we need like a certain ratio of volunteers. We've committed to a safety 00:09:53.494 --> 00:09:57.494 and protocol and all of that. Right. And we have people who do a snacks and we have floaters in 00:09:57.494 --> 00:10:02.026 between rooms and we have room leaders and assistant room leaders. And then we have people 00:10:02.294 --> 00:10:10.380 who run the check-in and you know, it's like it, it's, it's a complex web of volunteers that are, 00:10:10.641 --> 00:10:17.574 that are needed. And, and of course in that, you know, we're talking about, we're not talking about. 00:10:16.844 --> 00:10:28.414 You know junior Holy Spirit here that we want No, we want yeah people who love Jesus and who are who are following Jesus closely and who are eager to. 00:10:30.131 --> 00:10:38.174 Teach the word to kids and to help get them closer to Jesus so that Jesus can transform their lives as well and so, 00:10:39.115 --> 00:10:45.534 It's not just warm bodies. Yeah, God's God is interested in their lives What's going on in their soul? 00:10:45.534 --> 00:10:46.272 Absolutely. 00:10:46.659 --> 00:10:51.350 Like interested in their spiritual development. It's not like God suddenly cares once they turn 18. Right. 00:10:51.899 --> 00:10:55.211 Right? It's... They're no less a part of the church. They're no less a part of the body. 00:10:55.932 --> 00:11:02.234 Right. If we just look at the... Like, if you've ever been to our church and you look at the physical space, you walk in 00:11:02.234 --> 00:11:10.354 immediately through the front doors into the worship sanctuary, but that is like the space 00:11:10.354 --> 00:11:17.034 that is like, it's the smallest space, if we were to just kind of like divvy up the types of spaces. 00:11:17.492 --> 00:11:19.815 My area, yeah. It's like worship sanctuary. 00:11:20.674 --> 00:11:24.034 And then probably the offices would be the smallest amount of space. 00:11:24.034 --> 00:11:31.354 Next would be worship, adult worship sanctuary. And then the biggest amount of space that the entire building is made up out of is children's 00:11:31.354 --> 00:11:33.102 ministry. Kids ministry. 00:11:33.498 --> 00:11:37.423 Yeah, 100%. Right? Because we have a duplicate space below the worship sanctuary that is like where the kids, 00:11:37.954 --> 00:11:41.654 have a big group. entire ground floor is kids ministry. Yes, it's all. 00:11:42.518 --> 00:11:46.214 And then three rooms upstairs. Yes. Kids ministry. 00:11:47.014 --> 00:11:53.951 So it takes a lot to make that happen, right? and like. 00:11:54.987 --> 00:12:02.597 I don't know if this is, I really don't know. I'd be interested to know if this is a pattern in other churches or if it's just, if it's unique here. I'm not sure. 00:12:03.350 --> 00:12:11.317 But we have a real difficult time getting volunteers committed into those spaces, 00:12:12.280 --> 00:12:19.797 and maintaining volunteers. And it's probably one of the biggest organizational headaches that we 00:12:19.797 --> 00:12:26.774 that we encounter is ensuring that we have people in rooms to teach kids on Sunday mornings. 00:12:27.566 --> 00:12:37.567 So like. I mean, somebody on staff spends several hours a week doing that. Doing that, right. 00:12:38.497 --> 00:12:47.257 So what's the solution there? Well, there is a part of me who thinks that I could. 00:12:52.697 --> 00:13:00.154 That I probably have enough relational equity here to stand up on a Sunday morning and to, 00:13:02.537 --> 00:13:07.437 for lack of a better term, cajole people. Cajole. Yeah. 00:13:07.657 --> 00:13:16.937 Coerce. Coerce. Not quite coerce, but cajole. cajole people into signing up to be in volunteering in the kids ministry. 00:13:20.364 --> 00:13:25.504 And could probably get that done. Leveraging a bunch of guilt. 00:13:26.194 --> 00:13:30.914 Leveraging a bunch of, you know, like threatening to have to shut down kids' ministry rooms 00:13:30.914 --> 00:13:33.354 because we don't have enough volunteers and all that. 00:13:33.354 --> 00:13:39.737 Anyone who's in ministry, I think, has a secret closet somewhere in their brain 00:13:39.890 --> 00:13:43.950 where they put all of the really snarky things they wish they could say or do. 00:13:45.794 --> 00:13:49.459 In order to get their point across, but they know that like they shouldn't. 00:13:49.714 --> 00:13:52.694 That's just not pastoral. Well, no, right? Like... 00:13:53.934 --> 00:13:57.474 It's not the representation of good leadership, it's not the representation of compassionate 00:13:57.474 --> 00:14:01.099 leadership or godly leadership, but nevertheless, it is there. 00:14:01.810 --> 00:14:02.720 Yeah. Yeah. 00:14:04.079 --> 00:14:14.274 Yeah, and it's not... I was talking with a friend in an entirely different denominational 00:14:14.274 --> 00:14:24.514 space than we are. And they have the same exact problem. For as different as their worship is 00:14:24.514 --> 00:14:29.634 from ours, they have the exact same problem. They can't get anybody to help out with the youth. 00:14:29.634 --> 00:14:35.623 And the guy who I was talking with is in charge of their children's program and stuff, and he was 00:14:36.034 --> 00:14:42.434 talking with the priest, and the priest was like, maybe we're just not the body of Christ because 00:14:42.434 --> 00:14:48.914 we don't care about the children." It was just like going at it. It was like, oh, okay. 00:14:50.514 --> 00:14:56.594 So it's not just a... It's not just to us, I definitely think it's a broader problem, but, 00:14:57.886 --> 00:15:04.304 there's definitely a lot of... Yeah, there's things that we're like, I'm just like, 00:15:04.457 --> 00:15:09.474 oh, I could say that. That wouldn't be pastoral or Christ-like or... 00:15:09.787 --> 00:15:17.394 Yeah, right. Or it wouldn't, even practically speaking, it wouldn't actually move the needle over the long 00:15:17.394 --> 00:15:24.994 term. You might convince someone to serve a couple weeks out of a year, but it doesn't actually 00:15:24.994 --> 00:15:29.151 it doesn't actually engender or plant within them 00:15:29.574 --> 00:15:34.554 a heart that desires to lead kids closer to Jesus. 00:15:34.723 --> 00:15:36.397 Which is what we... 00:15:37.865 --> 00:15:44.835 That's really what we wanna plant in people. We wanna plant in people that there's a calling. 00:15:48.955 --> 00:15:57.475 To serve the Lord, serve the kingdom, and serve these kids by teaching them, 00:16:00.075 --> 00:16:06.715 being a place of safety for them, giving them a place of community 00:16:06.715 --> 00:16:14.795 is contextual to who they are and their age groups and all of that, so that they can meet Jesus, 00:16:15.674 --> 00:16:18.395 and that Jesus can transform their lives. 00:16:18.395 --> 00:16:18.771 Yeah. 00:16:19.023 --> 00:16:23.821 Right? Because if you're passionate about that, you'll do it. 00:16:24.208 --> 00:16:30.715 You'll do it. Right. I didn't understand this for the longest time because I just don't know if it just didn't 00:16:30.780 --> 00:16:35.275 click or I didn't hear people explain it well enough, but there was this like, don't get up 00:16:35.275 --> 00:16:41.515 there and say, we need volunteers, like using the word need was like the dirty word you're never 00:16:41.515 --> 00:16:45.835 supposed to use in like a church announcement. And I was just like, I don't understand because 00:16:45.835 --> 00:16:55.595 don't we need people? Like, you know, and the, the, it's less about the, the need, right? It's 00:16:55.595 --> 00:17:01.035 less about using that word need. And it's more about like the thing actually behind it of like. 00:17:02.126 --> 00:17:06.888 Like, cause you can get people who will just like, oh yeah, I will show up and fill a need. 00:17:06.995 --> 00:17:10.273 I will do the thing because it seems urgent. 00:17:10.475 --> 00:17:18.395 It seems important, but that kind of volunteer will only last for very short, 00:17:18.395 --> 00:17:24.275 very short period of time before they're like, well, like it doesn't seem like the urgency, 00:17:24.275 --> 00:17:26.342 showed up, the urgency disappeared. 00:17:27.359 --> 00:17:31.929 And so now am I really still needed slash there's something else that's maybe more 00:17:31.929 --> 00:17:38.409 interesting or more urgent or more needed that I would rather go do versus someone who shows up 00:17:38.409 --> 00:17:48.169 because they're dedicated and committed to seeing kids know Christ. Yeah, those are two different 00:17:48.169 --> 00:17:50.630 volunteers and one's gonna last longer. Right. 00:17:50.864 --> 00:18:01.129 Not just last longer, serve in a different capacity. Right. Well, yeah, like I'd say two things. One is I think we talked a couple weeks ago, 00:18:02.180 --> 00:18:11.929 about how when things get difficult in ministry, if you are not firmly planted in your calling, 00:18:13.226 --> 00:18:14.414 then it's really easy to quit. Yeah. 00:18:16.025 --> 00:18:22.249 If you're there for some other reason other than you truly believe that God has called you to this 00:18:22.249 --> 00:18:28.485 very thing. Yeah. And that the work is important, eternally important. That's what roots us here. 00:18:28.737 --> 00:18:33.849 Yeah. That's what roots me in ministry. Right. Like it's not, I mean, I love, I love my job and 00:18:33.849 --> 00:18:38.801 I love the church and I love the people and I love to preach and I love the word of God and I, 00:18:38.855 --> 00:18:48.083 you know, like all of those things. Yep. But the thing that keeps me planted is that God has, 00:18:48.329 --> 00:18:50.864 has a calling on my life. 00:18:51.129 --> 00:18:54.222 This is the reason that I was created. 00:18:55.329 --> 00:18:59.290 Right. And, and I like, There. 00:19:02.099 --> 00:19:09.709 What else could I do I can do no other I can do no other right But if I was here out of a sense of well 00:19:09.709 --> 00:19:16.709 I was kind of looking for a job didn't it paid fairly decent had flexible hours and you know, whatever sure 00:19:16.709 --> 00:19:20.104 I'll do it. No problem as soon as it got hard. Oh, 00:19:21.706 --> 00:19:26.567 Yeah, you're out the benefits of being a pastor or not that great. No No. 00:19:26.846 --> 00:19:33.445 The compensation packages are not, don't include like time shares or, you know. 00:19:33.749 --> 00:19:34.408 Right. 00:19:35.480 --> 00:19:43.529 You know. So it is, it functions in a similar way with, for instance, conduit kids leaders, or kids 00:19:43.529 --> 00:19:45.220 ministry leaders. Yeah. 00:19:45.529 --> 00:19:52.251 And I'm not, I'm honestly not faulting people for that, like, I'm really not. 00:19:52.549 --> 00:20:03.149 But I think that it's sometimes overlooked the role that a pastor has to essentially, 00:20:03.149 --> 00:20:15.963 what we do is we lead, organize, motivate, inspire, empower, encourage a large staff, 00:20:16.440 --> 00:20:27.477 of people that is not necessarily extraordinarily called to that specific ministry, right? 00:20:29.029 --> 00:20:31.051 Whom we don't pay. Yes. 00:20:32.491 --> 00:20:37.061 And they are very busy and usually have kids of their own. So it's like, 00:20:38.387 --> 00:20:41.301 they're trying to show up early on Sunday. If you're in the business world, 00:20:42.529 --> 00:20:48.421 you have some teeth with your employees. Sure. There are things that they must do 00:20:48.421 --> 00:20:52.741 in order to maintain or keep that job. Right. And that gives you the opportunity to, 00:20:53.952 --> 00:20:58.181 to, you know, it takes a lot of the leadership equation out of it. 00:20:59.417 --> 00:21:06.177 It. Yeah. Oh, all of our, all of our employees in kids ministry are volunteers. Yes. And 00:21:06.501 --> 00:21:12.921 so if they say, if they call us on a Sunday morning at 7 a.m. be like, uh, Hey, yeah, 00:21:12.921 --> 00:21:16.755 by the way, I'm not going to be there this week or this morning for my, we're not, what 00:21:17.061 --> 00:21:20.521 are we going to say? We can't say, well, uh, we're going to have to talk about this on 00:21:20.521 --> 00:21:24.221 Monday in my office, or I could, sure. 00:21:24.281 --> 00:21:33.101 I could, I could be like, I could like leverage some of the equity, relational pastoral leadership equity or whatever. 00:21:33.221 --> 00:21:33.461 Yeah. 00:21:34.081 --> 00:21:44.481 Um, but to what end, to the end of guilting them into doing the thing that they committed to doing, or is it like a, you know, remember the 00:21:44.481 --> 00:21:49.241 calling, remember the, remember the task, remember the stakes, remember, remember, 00:21:49.241 --> 00:21:54.361 remember. Yeah. Okay. Well, I'm still not gonna be here. Okay. Love you. 00:21:55.801 --> 00:22:02.681 Well, I always feel immensely conflicted when someone comes to me, maybe they've been serving 00:22:02.681 --> 00:22:09.321 for a while, and they say, Pastor Luke, I'm just burned out. I've got too many things going on. 00:22:09.427 --> 00:22:17.295 Like, I need a break. And like, I'm Mr. Pastoral. I'm Mr. Like, you know, I'm like, 00:22:17.763 --> 00:22:22.418 I get it. Like, I hear you. Like, you need a break. Like, I... 00:22:24.137 --> 00:22:29.565 Yeah, I'm just like I don't want you to serve in a place that's like harming you or like, 00:22:30.223 --> 00:22:33.841 detrimental to your spiritual health to your emotional health like, 00:22:34.562 --> 00:22:40.081 um, I of course want you to be able to participate in other aspects of the body like, you know, i'm, 00:22:41.201 --> 00:22:46.976 My heart is to immediately go into care mode for someone who comes to me and says like i'm burnt out. Yep, 00:22:48.227 --> 00:22:52.440 but at the same time Right? Like there's a question of like, 00:22:54.641 --> 00:22:56.212 are we the first thing that you cut? 00:22:58.761 --> 00:23:02.973 Like when things, when, when stress happens, when things happen, 00:23:03.108 --> 00:23:08.941 do you ever consider that there are other things that you could potentially cut back on, trim that, 00:23:09.796 --> 00:23:14.154 or is this the thing that's maybe the easiest because it has the least amount of consequences? 00:23:14.208 --> 00:23:16.521 Or it's the thing, I don't know. I don't know. 00:23:16.593 --> 00:23:21.589 You can't, there's, I have zero ability to judge anyone's heart on that matter. 00:23:21.681 --> 00:23:28.121 But it's always, it always puts me in a place of just like, that's I'm, you know, of course you absolutely 00:23:28.121 --> 00:23:30.115 we're not gonna force anyone to serve. 00:23:30.721 --> 00:23:35.273 But then as soon as they leave, I am immediately calling other people. Right. 00:23:35.801 --> 00:23:41.197 Sometimes people who I had that same conversation with several months ago and said, 00:23:41.281 --> 00:23:43.081 oh, I'll be back at some point. 00:23:43.081 --> 00:23:48.541 And now I'm like, okay, well, we need you back because somebody else is doing what, you know, 00:23:48.541 --> 00:23:51.531 that same conversation I had with you several months ago. 00:23:51.961 --> 00:23:52.801 I don't know. 00:23:53.503 --> 00:23:59.881 That feels like such a tricky space to be in consistently. Yeah, it is. 00:23:59.881 --> 00:24:04.881 Yeah, because like we can't, right, can't force anyone. 00:24:05.441 --> 00:24:08.981 No, nor do we want to. Nor do I want to, right? So that's the rub, there's the rub. 00:24:08.981 --> 00:24:17.259 Like I can't force anyone, I don't want to, But therein lies the problem, it's like, okay, well. 00:24:17.561 --> 00:24:19.921 We still have kids show up. We still have kids show up. 00:24:19.921 --> 00:24:24.921 We can't responsibly or safely staff a kids ministry. 00:24:27.315 --> 00:24:32.001 With a number of people that we have or don't have. And so what is then the response? 00:24:32.001 --> 00:24:35.525 Well, the response is, okay, well, we have to cancel these rooms this week. 00:24:36.686 --> 00:24:40.755 And then the response is like, well, what gives, guys? All right. 00:24:41.281 --> 00:24:46.801 Like, why don't we have conduit kids this week? And what do we say? Well, because y'all canceled. 00:24:48.241 --> 00:24:52.961 Or do we take a more pastoral approach and be like, well, we're just struggling with, 00:24:53.791 --> 00:24:57.041 maintaining staffing in those rooms and da-da-da-da-da. I don't know. 00:24:57.086 --> 00:25:07.281 Right. Well, we tried for a season to do, because most months have four Sundays. Every once in a 00:25:07.281 --> 00:25:11.687 a while, there's a month, there's like, what, four a year that have five Sundays in them. 00:25:11.921 --> 00:25:17.260 And so we tried to do those fifth Sundays do like a joint family service and stuff. And that was... 00:25:18.619 --> 00:25:25.434 Part just to alleviate some of the stress that we were feeling of like, oh we got an extra Sunday this month like, 00:25:26.685 --> 00:25:35.329 People were less able of willing available to serve on those Sundays And so we were consistently running up like how are we gonna have? 00:25:36.029 --> 00:25:39.849 Children's ministry. So well, let's just have a joint family service and try and, 00:25:41.008 --> 00:25:46.989 Try and love the community that way and there's some good things in it But then what we'd largely noticed is that people 00:25:47.219 --> 00:25:49.776 with children just stopped attending those weeks. 00:25:49.848 --> 00:25:52.648 They would say, oh, it's a fifth Sunday, just not coming to church this week. 00:25:52.949 --> 00:25:58.749 Yeah, because it's hard to have your kids in church with you to not feel like you're a distraction. 00:25:58.749 --> 00:26:03.216 It's like one, and it's one thing if you've got one small kid that can sit on your lap, 00:26:03.810 --> 00:26:04.869 it's another if you've got five. 00:26:05.359 --> 00:26:07.749 Five in the front row. Five in the front row. 00:26:07.749 --> 00:26:10.220 I don't know who falls into that category, but like. 00:26:11.840 --> 00:26:17.179 You know. You. And yeah, that's hard. 00:26:17.669 --> 00:26:24.189 So I don't like, I wish I knew what the answer was. I mean, I think the classical answer is, 00:26:24.189 --> 00:26:26.100 well, you need to cast better vision. 00:26:26.449 --> 00:26:28.629 You need to cast better vision, you need to cast better vision, 00:26:28.629 --> 00:26:35.129 you need to cast better vision. Yeah, but again, that's like a thing that I've heard, But again... 00:26:36.426 --> 00:26:45.869 What does that exactly mean or yeah, I mean I could cast vision till I'm blue in the face Yeah, right at and, 00:26:47.435 --> 00:26:53.596 It's been I don't know. Maybe it may be maybe it just is I have not cast a clear enough vision 00:26:53.596 --> 00:26:58.310 I have not cast it often enough. I have not been more clear about the, 00:26:59.678 --> 00:27:03.276 The goal or the mission or the vision or whatever? 00:27:03.276 --> 00:27:07.596 Or organizational mumbo-jumbo you get yourself mixed up with these days. 00:27:09.396 --> 00:27:15.216 Tell us how you really feel about that, Cameron. I could rant and rave about the, you know, 00:27:15.756 --> 00:27:21.014 kind of postmodern, like, obsession with mission, vision, core values, 00:27:21.221 --> 00:27:26.001 and how it just completely consumes a leader's, like, time. 00:27:27.396 --> 00:27:39.180 To align all those things and to make them Um, provocative and intriguing and sticky and, um, all of the things in an effort to, 00:27:39.558 --> 00:27:44.087 you know, create an organizational soup that tastes good to all the people who. 00:27:44.519 --> 00:27:45.662 Are coming there. 00:27:46.103 --> 00:27:51.636 Right. Right. I think the funniest example of this in that I cannot remember the specifics, but I 00:27:51.636 --> 00:27:57.076 know it was the CEO of Uber and he, like when they redesigned their logos, I think he 00:27:57.076 --> 00:28:01.996 spent like a year, two years, some exorbitant amount of time and money. 00:28:01.996 --> 00:28:07.076 I'm talking like millions and millions of dollars to design a new logo. 00:28:07.141 --> 00:28:13.335 And it was like this massive, like mission vision, like he had to, it had to embody 00:28:13.740 --> 00:28:16.116 like the ride sharing service. 00:28:16.116 --> 00:28:25.236 It was like, it was like, what do we, what do we stand for? Like, there was like all this like woo woo corporate speak mumbo jumbo, like 00:28:25.236 --> 00:28:30.356 wrapped up in something that the CEO had done like one-on-one personally with like a graphic 00:28:30.356 --> 00:28:36.676 designer for like years and spent millions of dollars on and it was a 00:28:35.814 --> 00:28:43.304 Fine logo not changing the world not even as good as coca-cola Right, right 00:28:43.584 --> 00:28:49.684 So like you can get all wrapped up into that Yeah, and the fun, you know. 00:28:51.343 --> 00:28:58.944 You want to know what's really funny is if you were to get on to any of like the AI free AI go to chat GPT whatever sign up for it and 00:28:59.301 --> 00:29:05.269 and ask it to generate a church mission, vision, and like value statement or whatever, 00:29:05.384 --> 00:29:10.004 and then go compare it to just look up churches, 00:29:10.804 --> 00:29:15.264 and look at their mission and vision statements and see how eerily close it is. 00:29:15.264 --> 00:29:18.547 Like it is- There's nothing novel. 00:29:19.024 --> 00:29:24.624 No. In the realm of that. I would say in 90%, 95% of churches, 00:29:25.064 --> 00:29:32.484 99% of churches, their mission and vision stuff Yeah, so boilerplate. Yeah, believe belong, 00:29:35.670 --> 00:29:41.424 You know, right go out serve right, you know believe belong gather grow and go yeah. 00:29:47.024 --> 00:30:00.364 Well Cameron, okay, yes live laugh love I mean live love serve Oh my gosh, live, laugh, love, die, cry, and hate, how about that? 00:30:00.364 --> 00:30:04.900 How about instead of live, laugh, love, it's die, cry, and hate? 00:30:05.926 --> 00:30:11.844 I mean, okay, yes, do we gather? Yes. Do we grow? Yes. 00:30:13.344 --> 00:30:13.992 Do we go? Yes. Right. 00:30:15.631 --> 00:30:24.219 Oh, exalting that as like a, we just need a better mission statement 00:30:24.441 --> 00:30:29.260 and we just need to communicate it with more clarity 00:30:29.681 --> 00:30:35.643 and that's really gonna be the silver bullet to our organizational success here. 00:30:35.841 --> 00:30:45.680 I think is so pridefully idolatrous idolatrous, that it is almost that, 00:30:45.841 --> 00:30:54.441 but it has become so normal that for me to say a mission and vision statement is pridefully idolatrous. 00:30:56.341 --> 00:31:01.341 Becomes provocative or scandalous or like, 00:31:02.961 --> 00:31:04.198 what are you talking about? 00:31:04.761 --> 00:31:13.361 Like all of the big churches have mission, vision, core value statement, like, yeah, I, I'm not saying 00:31:13.361 --> 00:31:21.061 that they don't. And I'm not saying that, like, sometimes those things can be helpful, right? I'm not saying that 00:31:21.061 --> 00:31:28.121 they're not help, they can't be helpful. What I'm saying is like, they're not the thing, right? They're not the thing, 00:31:28.432 --> 00:31:41.241 you can have, you can have the best branding, you can have the best like mission and vision and be an absolute shell. 00:31:42.395 --> 00:31:49.885 A whitewashed tomb. Yes, a whitewashed tomb. Yeah, so I just, I weary of it and I think, 00:31:51.793 --> 00:32:02.363 you know, we've here begun to transition or pivot into, I guess what you would call a more simple, 00:32:03.163 --> 00:32:12.210 simpler model of understanding why, you know, why we exist and who we are, you know, and 00:32:12.523 --> 00:32:17.523 And it feels to me to actually be more clarifying for us. 00:32:19.923 --> 00:32:25.003 Than to try and fit every program, every ministry, every decision into a like a, 00:32:25.003 --> 00:32:31.603 well, does this meet our five values and our three points of mission and our six points of vision? 00:32:33.163 --> 00:32:39.923 I feel like, well, does this move people closer to Jesus? Because that's where their transformation is gonna happen 00:32:39.923 --> 00:32:42.044 is not closer to our programs. 00:32:42.710 --> 00:32:51.123 Closer to Jesus, and if we can get them closer to Jesus, the odds are that if they allow him to be lord 00:32:51.123 --> 00:32:54.044 of their life, that Jesus is gonna transform them, period. 00:32:55.203 --> 00:33:03.604 And so our responsibility is not to necessarily create compelling vision so that people wanna serve. 00:33:04.763 --> 00:33:09.763 Our responsibility is to get people closer to Jesus so he can transform their lives, and they'll transform, 00:33:09.763 --> 00:33:14.263 And then he'll go on to transform homes and communities and churches and all of those things. 00:33:14.263 --> 00:33:23.423 So yeah, the temptation in the flesh is to stand up and be like, we need people and we need people 00:33:23.423 --> 00:33:26.263 because we need to do this and we need to do that. 00:33:26.263 --> 00:33:30.557 We need to do that. That's true at its base level, it's true. 00:33:31.383 --> 00:33:38.695 We do need people to continue the, I guess, standard of ministry that we've set in the past. 00:33:38.903 --> 00:33:40.903 But it um... 00:33:42.422 --> 00:33:51.552 You know, I, I, I, I'm not willing to, I'm not willing to cash in pastoral equity that I have, 00:33:52.423 --> 00:34:02.032 on the cajoling of people to, to volunteer when they, when the, when the heart is not there. 00:34:02.032 --> 00:34:02.443 Right. 00:34:02.866 --> 00:34:06.352 But then that leaves us in a space of being like, well, what do we do? What do we do? 00:34:07.592 --> 00:34:16.032 Yeah. There is like, I'm curious, do you think, and this is like, I don't know, I haven't run 00:34:16.032 --> 00:34:20.069 across the study that's really done a deep dive on this and I'm not connected to enough. I don't, 00:34:20.672 --> 00:34:27.938 talk regularly enough with enough pastors, but like, I, I, I wonder, and this isn't like, you 00:34:28.112 --> 00:34:36.032 know, we can't continue to blame everything on the Corona virus, um, still like there, 00:34:36.032 --> 00:34:43.691 there was just such a massive shift in church culture that the pandemic, like, forced all, 00:34:44.512 --> 00:34:54.992 churches through on some level. And I'm, you know, consistently wonder, like, if you remember the 00:34:54.992 --> 00:35:01.642 pandemic, and you remember being locked down, and then you kind of remember that sweet spot between 00:35:01.849 --> 00:35:06.992 being absolutely locked down and being locked in your house, which like may have been different for 00:35:06.992 --> 00:35:12.192 everybody, right? Like I was in Chicago. So like the level of lockdown-ness that was in Chicago 00:35:12.192 --> 00:35:18.112 versus here in Western New York were different. But that space where you started to, you weren't. 00:35:19.007 --> 00:35:25.152 Doing organized sports. You weren't like, you weren't busy, but you had more time for your 00:35:25.152 --> 00:35:28.832 family and for close friends. 00:35:28.342 --> 00:35:32.736 And, and people like everyone I was interacting with was like, 00:35:33.465 --> 00:35:37.032 Oh, this feels amazing. Like there were certain things you missed, right? 00:35:37.032 --> 00:35:40.792 Like you missed going to like restaurants or whatever your particular thing, 00:35:40.792 --> 00:35:45.912 movie theaters. Um, but having a lot of things stripped away, 00:35:46.608 --> 00:35:51.512 brought people a lot closer to things that they prioritized more and cared more 00:35:51.512 --> 00:35:55.992 about working from home, closer to family, all of that. 00:35:56.772 --> 00:36:13.992 And what I've wondered is that in the shuffling of priorities as people have like gotten back to normal life, there's things that have started back up, and people are just like, maybe longing for a more pared down schedule. 00:36:13.992 --> 00:36:16.992 And, well, I don't want to put everything back on. 00:36:16.992 --> 00:36:27.712 Maybe we put like some things lower at the list. list. I don't know. Like, I just wonder, like, has that shuffle, like, ended up with people, 00:36:28.577 --> 00:36:35.872 prioritizing church less or feeling, like, because I, it was really nice to not have to, like. 00:36:38.299 --> 00:36:44.272 You know, I did when I was doing a church plan. And so, like, Sunday mornings were, like, 00:36:45.771 --> 00:36:49.952 more complicated than normal Sunday mornings because they involved us setting up church 00:36:49.952 --> 00:36:54.053 in doing all this extra stuff that you don't have to do in a normal church. 00:36:55.610 --> 00:37:00.490 And I was like, oh, this is kind of nice to just turn on some cameras and then live stream. This 00:37:00.832 --> 00:37:10.112 is simpler and it's easier in some regards. Yeah, I... 00:37:10.112 --> 00:37:15.112 I, like you, I am hesitant to give too much credit, 00:37:18.192 --> 00:37:24.553 to COVID and all of that madness that happened three years ago. 00:37:27.872 --> 00:37:34.887 But I don't know a better explanation than that somehow, or in some ways, 00:37:35.312 --> 00:37:39.415 it affected the culture of church even. 00:37:41.152 --> 00:37:50.029 I think that there's always been a underlying current of consumerism in the church, 00:37:50.552 --> 00:37:59.959 where church has become a product to be consumed or a message to be heard, right? 00:38:00.192 --> 00:38:09.780 Not a place to belong, Not a place to belong, become, and believe. 00:38:10.072 --> 00:38:11.112 Yeah, yeah, 00:38:14.074 --> 00:38:18.964 but it's become something just to consume. And I think that. 00:38:22.324 --> 00:38:30.804 So we're responsible to consume, we're not responsible to produce at all. And I think that, 00:38:31.944 --> 00:38:41.364 COVID, it intensified that because church almost literally was just something that you consumed via 00:38:41.364 --> 00:38:45.879 a digital media, in most cases. 00:38:47.444 --> 00:38:57.600 And so I do think that there is a besetting problem in the church, not conduit, but Big C Church, 00:38:57.762 --> 00:38:59.284 conduit included there. 00:39:00.124 --> 00:39:07.656 I do think that there is a growing problem of the church exists to serve me and feed me. 00:39:12.184 --> 00:39:20.151 But I have no responsibility to belong to a community that then reciprocates that into other people's lives. 00:39:21.168 --> 00:39:20.484 Yeah. 00:39:22.888 --> 00:39:32.025 And that is a dangerous place to be because I think it separates us from the historical nature, 00:39:32.376 --> 00:39:36.895 biblical nature of the people of God who were set apart 00:39:37.324 --> 00:39:41.657 so that they could be the blessing of God to the people of the world. 00:39:41.924 --> 00:39:48.643 And we've lost that a little bit. And I think that there's probably a, 00:39:49.084 --> 00:39:52.124 those two things are separated or connected. 00:39:53.766 --> 00:39:57.888 But I do think that, yeah, like, the, 00:39:58.762 --> 00:40:05.666 the this past pandemic has maybe rewired a little bit of or sped up the trend. 00:40:07.890 --> 00:40:18.940 Yeah, yeah, sure Yeah, it or yeah magnified rewired sped it up Whatever what you know, what was happening in the world or the culture? 00:40:20.331 --> 00:40:30.594 So Yeah, I don't know I Wish I knew what the answer was. I think good leaders would say well, okay, how do you take your current, you know? 00:40:31.719 --> 00:40:36.780 Pain points and how do you pivot in a way that they you know, how do you become creative in ministry? 00:40:36.780 --> 00:40:46.789 So now that you just kind of roll with the current rather than swim upstream against it, you know? 00:40:46.861 --> 00:40:54.060 Well, the thing is, and we've talked about this here, is like, I think what a lot of people, 00:40:54.060 --> 00:40:59.420 the answer that I'm hearing from a lot of church leaders is like, well, just pivot hard digital. 00:41:01.103 --> 00:41:08.457 Like, be more remote, be more, you know, like, do more digital things, right? 00:41:08.780 --> 00:41:16.860 Like embrace the fact that, you know, embrace VR church, Cameron, and all of the things. 00:41:16.860 --> 00:41:19.791 And we've talked, we had an episode where we talked about that stuff. 00:41:20.060 --> 00:41:26.420 And we have theological convictions and reasonings as to why we feel like that is not... That's not it. 00:41:26.420 --> 00:41:34.000 Healthy, like, it's interesting because it's, you know, we talked about, we'd spent several 00:41:34.000 --> 00:41:40.480 weeks talking about sacraments, like communion in particular. 00:41:42.099 --> 00:41:47.860 And the idea of like, oh, well, like, let's not do it every week, or let's not do it very 00:41:47.860 --> 00:41:53.622 often. Let's not do communion all the time, right? Because we didn't want to like devalue its specialness. 00:41:54.260 --> 00:41:58.580 And then you end up doing it less and less and less until you get churches that only do it once a year. 00:41:58.580 --> 00:42:04.542 Like, I don't know, by offering it, by offering things that are important less 00:42:04.940 --> 00:42:14.210 or in a less personal or meaningful way, does not mean that you makes it. 00:42:16.217 --> 00:42:21.747 I don't know. I don't think that going more digitally is going to make people say like, 00:42:21.747 --> 00:42:25.587 oh, I value this more because I can consume it more conveniently. 00:42:25.868 --> 00:42:26.147 No. 00:42:26.867 --> 00:42:30.627 Like convenience does not always equal value. 00:42:31.449 --> 00:42:41.107 No, and convenience is actually antithetical to the gospel of like that the gospel costs 00:42:41.107 --> 00:42:49.027 something. To believe in Jesus costs something. We do not have a faith that has its foundation 00:42:49.027 --> 00:42:58.947 in convenience. We have a faith that it has its foundation in sacrifice and surrender, 00:42:59.824 --> 00:43:06.627 and giving up of myself and taking up my cross and dying to myself. 00:43:06.627 --> 00:43:12.987 Those who lose their life will find it. Right, and so I think the gospel of convenience, 00:43:14.187 --> 00:43:18.567 is a radically Americanized version, 00:43:18.675 --> 00:43:23.644 or Western version of what we desire Christianity to be. 00:43:23.815 --> 00:43:33.826 And like, yes, I am, I see the benefit of digital space, but vehemently opposed to it being the totality. 00:43:35.227 --> 00:43:42.267 Of someone's experience with the church, because I think that people are actually important, right? 00:43:42.267 --> 00:43:47.827 And face-to-face conversation is important, and actually pastoral relationship is important, 00:43:47.827 --> 00:43:51.107 and the sacraments are important, and the proclaiming of the word is important, 00:43:51.107 --> 00:43:53.607 and the worship of the body is important. 00:43:53.607 --> 00:44:04.334 And so to say all of those things can happen over the digital space, I think is wrong. 00:44:04.507 --> 00:44:10.267 Well, church is more than just a live worship CD and a sermon podcast. 00:44:10.267 --> 00:44:12.292 It's not a consumable product. 00:44:12.947 --> 00:44:14.300 Which is not a consumable product. 00:44:19.549 --> 00:44:25.246 But yeah, I think that's the way that churches have, or some churches, I should say, have said, 00:44:25.246 --> 00:44:28.299 well, we will just pivot into being that. 00:44:28.366 --> 00:44:33.826 And while I understand the churches who would go in that direction, 00:44:37.926 --> 00:44:42.774 I have serious reservations and concerns about it and choose not to. 00:44:43.046 --> 00:44:45.817 I personally choose not to go that direction. 00:44:46.618 --> 00:44:46.222 So. 00:44:48.563 --> 00:44:57.241 Yeah. So then that leaves us in a place of wanting to stand against where maybe culture's going. 00:44:57.446 --> 00:44:57.853 Mm-hmm. 00:44:58.946 --> 00:45:07.621 Yeah. You know, of like, and you know, the thing is, is, I don't know, I think when we make things, 00:45:07.792 --> 00:45:14.966 there's like that unintuitive sense of when we make things easier for people, 00:45:15.930 --> 00:45:20.926 people have less ownership, buy-in, desire for the thing. 00:45:24.366 --> 00:45:33.106 When it's so, I don't know, like I'm more suspect, like when I go to buy a book, right? 00:45:33.106 --> 00:45:38.237 I go, oh, well, I've got this free book that somebody's like, oh, here's my free book, I'm giving away. 00:45:38.615 --> 00:45:43.468 I assume the free book they're giving away is mostly a sales pitch and a pretty bad book, 00:45:43.945 --> 00:45:49.526 versus a book I'm paying full price for that's only in hardback and it's not in soft cover yet. 00:45:49.526 --> 00:45:51.615 Like, oh, this has gotta be a pretty good book. 00:45:51.806 --> 00:45:57.718 Yeah. Right? Like the, my perception of it. And that translates to- And you went searching for it. 00:45:58.046 --> 00:46:01.926 And I went searching for it. And that translates even to how we interact 00:46:01.926 --> 00:46:05.886 with things like serving and church. 00:46:05.886 --> 00:46:10.366 Like, oh, like it's just a, it's just a live stream like every other church. 00:46:10.366 --> 00:46:12.906 Like I can do it in my pajamas. 00:46:12.906 --> 00:46:23.226 Can watch at any time. It doesn't require me to talk to anyone, to do anything. Do we think that 00:46:23.226 --> 00:46:32.106 is of greater value than the one that costs me something, that's making a demand of me to be 00:46:32.106 --> 00:46:39.146 someone and not just be someone for the church, but be someone for Christ? I think that's the other 00:46:39.372 --> 00:46:46.879 component, and I think why some people might be really burnt out on churches is. 00:46:47.861 --> 00:46:54.226 It is really tempting for churches to be all about their program, their church, 00:46:54.226 --> 00:47:01.026 what they're doing, their mission and vision, and not about... 00:47:00.743 --> 00:47:07.810 God's mission and not about like we want you to be a member here where I think what you're saying is like well 00:47:08.033 --> 00:47:13.773 No, we want people to be closer to Christ. Mm-hmm. That's what we're really searching 00:47:13.773 --> 00:47:18.953 Yeah I mean think that the classic saying is like it's not like the church has a mission and so now we ask God to come 00:47:18.953 --> 00:47:26.353 Alongside of us and bless and prosper our mission. Yeah, so I know God has a mission in the world and he has a church to fulfill it. 00:47:27.660 --> 00:47:31.441 But it's the other way around. 00:47:32.073 --> 00:47:37.913 So I don't think we should be asking, what is our little piece of what we can do? 00:47:38.391 --> 00:47:44.917 No, it's like, it's not ours. It's not our mission. It's not our mission. 00:47:45.513 --> 00:47:53.153 It's his. And are we doing it or not? Or are we distracted? I don't know. 00:47:53.667 --> 00:47:57.733 It's maybe coming across as overly critical of churches who are like uber mission and 00:47:57.733 --> 00:48:01.589 vision focused and I'm not meaning it to be like that. 00:48:01.853 --> 00:48:11.893 I guess what I'm saying is that I'm just weary of it and I'm not sure that I am built for 00:48:11.893 --> 00:48:16.453 leadership in a highly administrative or organizational model of ministry. 00:48:18.955 --> 00:48:23.402 If we were not, neither of us are meant to be business CEOs. No, no. 00:48:24.605 --> 00:48:32.005 And that's demonstrated both in like the witness of the spirit in my life, but also like, you know, natural gifting and 00:48:32.305 --> 00:48:37.797 ability and all of that. I think that we shouldn't ignore that either. So yeah, I agree. 00:48:39.669 --> 00:48:42.805 So in summary, we don't know what to do. We don't know what to do. 00:48:45.605 --> 00:48:53.551 Yeah, we don't know what to do. We wanna be inspiring towards the mission of God in the world. 00:48:54.325 --> 00:49:00.725 We don't wanna be manipulative. But there's also significant need within the church 00:49:00.725 --> 00:49:05.344 to serve specifically in kids ministry. Right, we wanna be pastoral. 00:49:05.685 --> 00:49:09.566 We wanna be pastoral. We want to. Sensitive to what's going on in people's lives. 00:49:10.185 --> 00:49:12.356 Yep, we wanna move people closer to Jesus. 00:49:13.445 --> 00:49:17.920 Not just sign them up for a task. We don't want people to consume a product. 00:49:18.705 --> 00:49:24.518 We want them to be a part of a body that has a mission from God. 00:49:27.545 --> 00:49:35.465 And all of those things kind of run headfirst into each other a lot of times. Yeah, exactly. 00:49:37.302 --> 00:49:45.683 Well, as always, we thank you for listening or watching. If you have questions or comments, anything like that, 00:49:45.872 --> 00:49:52.125 we have a texting line where you can send us a text and we'll get it, 716-201-0507, 00:49:54.745 --> 00:49:58.905 and it will get to us. And we will, if you have a question, 00:49:59.267 --> 00:50:00.788 we'll throw it into a mailbag episode. 00:50:01.185 --> 00:50:04.839 And if you just have a comment, that's helpful as well. Thanks for listening. 00:50:05.360 --> 00:50:17.961 Music.