1 00:00:00,180 --> 00:00:12,180 Editing is a service job, and publishing is the business of conveying your enthusiasm for a book to the rest of the world. 2 00:00:14,380 --> 00:00:16,400 Hello, listeners. 3 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:24,280 This is I'll Probably Delete This, where today we learn about the book business 4 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:30,100 by exploring stories from a notable person from the publishing industry. 5 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:36,840 And today, that is one of the preeminent editors from the last 70 years. 6 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:42,900 My name is Will Jauquet, and welcome to Episode 5. 7 00:00:43,820 --> 00:00:47,880 This episode, I hope, will be relatively short. 8 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:53,420 And instead of a story, we are going to pull insights from 10 00:00:54,260 --> 00:00:58,460 long-time editor Robert Gottlieb, based on his memoir. 11 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:02,800 Join me now as we learn from that long-time editor. 12 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:09,020 Robert Gottlieb started his career in publishing in 1955, 13 00:01:09,780 --> 00:01:16,440 and just 10 years later became editor-in-chief at publishing house Simon & Schuster. 14 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:22,720 Following that, he went to Alfred A. Knopf, where he was again editor-in-chief. 16 00:01:24,260 --> 00:01:28,760 He also spent five years as managing editor of The New Yorker magazine. 17 00:01:29,580 --> 00:01:34,040 When he left The New Yorker, he returned to Knopf as a senior book editor, 18 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:37,120 where he would stay for the rest of his career. 19 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:42,260 Gottlieb, over that career, edited hundreds of books, 20 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:46,740 and by his estimate, he edited more than 700 different books. 21 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:50,820 He edited many important books and notable authors. 22 00:01:50,820 --> 00:01:54,140 Among those authors are Toni Morrison, 23 00:01:54,260 --> 00:01:57,180 Bill Clinton, and Robert Caro. 24 00:01:57,900 --> 00:02:02,660 Robert Caro is famous for his biography first of Robert Moses, 25 00:02:03,180 --> 00:02:07,820 and then his multi-part biography that he's doing of Lyndon Johnson. 26 00:02:08,780 --> 00:02:11,940 Caro is really exploring the nature of power, 27 00:02:12,460 --> 00:02:15,660 and particularly political power in America. 28 00:02:16,500 --> 00:02:24,240 The reason why I spent time on Caro is that you can get a view into Gottlieb's role as editor, 29 00:02:24,260 --> 00:02:30,220 and his relationship to Caro in the movie Turn Every Page. 30 00:02:30,980 --> 00:02:37,540 It is a surprisingly compelling documentary about two very successful men, 31 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:43,000 bookish old men talking about research, editing, and books. 32 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:48,240 Sadly, Bob died in 2023 at the age of 92. 33 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:54,240 So he isn't going to be around to edit Caro's last volume of his studies. 34 00:02:54,260 --> 00:02:56,260 But he's going to be a part of the study of Johnson. 35 00:02:56,260 --> 00:03:00,260 We should all pray, however, that Caro is able to finish it. 36 00:03:00,980 --> 00:03:06,620 What follows, then, is advice and observations taken directly from Gottlieb's book. 37 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:14,220 That book is Avid Reader: A Life. And it was published by Farrar, Strauss, and Giroux. 38 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:20,840 We'll have four sections, first covering advice or admonitions for editors, 39 00:03:21,580 --> 00:03:24,080 followed by his comments on book design, 40 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:24,180 and then his comments on book design. 41 00:03:24,180 --> 00:03:24,240 And then his comments on book design, and then his comments on book design, 42 00:03:24,260 --> 00:03:29,680 and then a short discussion of marketing and promotion. 43 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:36,900 And we'll close with a few comments from Gottlieb on the nature of publishing. 44 00:03:39,220 --> 00:03:47,640 First up is five pieces of advice or admonitions that Gottlieb offers to editors. 45 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:54,180 And the first is, "Get back to your writers right away." 46 00:03:54,180 --> 00:04:03,800 Bob was famous for being a quick reader and being very quick in turning around comments on a manuscript. 47 00:04:04,820 --> 00:04:10,300 In episode four (https://probably-delete.transistor.fm/s1/4) of this podcast, we heard about how it took three months 48 00:04:10,300 --> 00:04:14,640 before Laura Ingalls Wilder heard back from Marion Fiery, 49 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:18,440 even though Fiery had requested the manuscript. 50 00:04:19,540 --> 00:04:22,800 Despite all the good that Fiery did for Wilder, 52 00:04:24,100 --> 00:04:28,640 this is one aspect about which Bob Gottlieb would not approve. 53 00:04:29,940 --> 00:04:34,820 The next three pieces of advice all hit on the same theme. 54 00:04:35,620 --> 00:04:41,160 So, number two, "It's the writer's book, not yours." 55 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:48,280 Number three, "Try to help make the book a better version of what it is 56 00:04:48,280 --> 00:04:51,460 and not into something that it isn't." 57 00:04:51,460 --> 00:04:53,460 And number four, 58 00:04:54,100 --> 00:04:59,320 "Spend your strength and your ego in service of the writer, 59 00:04:59,780 --> 00:05:01,720 not for your own sake." 60 00:05:03,280 --> 00:05:08,800 So Gottlieb is telling us that an editor really needs to work with the material 61 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:14,000 that she or he has been given and to try to improve it. 62 00:05:14,340 --> 00:05:17,500 The editor should make the book better, 63 00:05:17,500 --> 00:05:22,740 but shouldn't turn it into or try to turn it into the editor's own book. 64 00:05:24,260 --> 00:05:28,780 And then number five is going to mirror his prior advice 65 00:05:28,780 --> 00:05:31,540 and say it even more succinctly. 66 00:05:32,100 --> 00:05:35,920 And you can hear him say this over and over again in interviews. 67 00:05:36,460 --> 00:05:39,920 And that is, "It's a service job." 68 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:46,300 I've now listened to more than a half dozen interviews of Gottlieb. 69 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:51,300 And in all of those interviews, when he talks about publishing or editing, 70 00:05:51,300 --> 00:05:53,220 he repeats this mantra, 71 00:05:53,220 --> 00:05:56,360 that editing is a service job. 72 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:03,580 Next up is Gottlieb's thoughts on book production and design. 73 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:07,480 And his comments are really about what happens inside the cover. 74 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:09,480 He's not talking about cover design. 75 00:06:10,740 --> 00:06:15,260 When designing a book, really when designing and laying out the pages of a book, 76 00:06:15,660 --> 00:06:21,660 his overarching philosophy is to give the reader a break. 77 00:06:21,660 --> 00:06:27,140 This succinct philosophy leads to a number of conclusions. 78 00:06:27,140 --> 00:06:29,540 So we're going to go through a number of them now. 79 00:06:29,540 --> 00:06:35,820 First, "Keep the price of a book as low as possible." 80 00:06:35,820 --> 00:06:38,900 For as much as the book industry hates it, 81 00:06:38,900 --> 00:06:42,700 this is one part that Amazon tends to get right. 82 00:06:42,700 --> 00:06:51,460 Then, remember to make sure that the type is legible and as legible as possible, gnerous in size. Readability is everything. 83 00:06:51,660 --> 00:07:06,960 Next, don't talk about an important photograph or portrait or picture and then not show it. 84 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:10,960 Also, in terms of designing the page, 85 00:07:12,380 --> 00:07:15,220 deploy useful running headings. 86 00:07:16,420 --> 00:07:19,800 He wants the name of the particular story or essay 87 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:21,640 rather than the name of the author. 88 00:07:21,660 --> 00:07:25,180 The reader knows the name of the author. 89 00:07:27,580 --> 00:07:35,740 And don't deploy fancy ornaments or folios on the page that may distract from the text. 90 00:07:36,380 --> 00:07:38,540 In other words, don't over-design it. 91 00:07:40,940 --> 00:07:49,900 And the last piece of advice he has on this topic is just remember the things that irritate you 92 00:07:50,540 --> 00:07:51,620 in books that you are reading. 95 00:07:53,460 --> 00:07:55,060 So, do unto others. 96 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:56,420 Think about the reader. 97 00:07:56,780 --> 00:07:58,760 Put yourself in the reader's place. 98 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:01,960 Remember the things that bother you as a reader 99 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:04,800 and then don't do those things. 100 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:08,560 When I picked up his memoir, 101 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:11,140 I was hoping to hear about 102 00:08:11,140 --> 00:08:13,240 the book publishing industry 103 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:15,100 and how it had changed 104 00:08:15,100 --> 00:08:17,720 and what Gottlieb would also say 105 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:19,780 about marketing books. 106 00:08:19,780 --> 00:08:29,680 Avid Reader did have some of that but not very much. I'll pass on the little bit that i pulled 107 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:36,540 from the book on the topic he talked about the move away from doing print advertising 108 00:08:36,540 --> 00:08:45,280 so early in his career print advertising for books had been the primary way to promote a new book 109 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:53,000 but the cost of ads went up and so publishing houses moved away from print ads 110 00:08:53,000 --> 00:09:03,100 it became less cost effective in selling books to the public. Because of this other forms of 111 00:09:03,100 --> 00:09:12,740 promotion became more important at the same time print was fading you had the rise of the medium 112 00:09:12,740 --> 00:09:15,260 of TV which we touched on in Episode 1 (https://probably-delete.transistor.fm/s1/1) 113 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:23,960 The reality was that tv appearances could sell books for the right 114 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:31,480 kind of author or the right kind of book and he called out people like Lauren Bacall the famous 115 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:38,460 hollywood actress or Julia Child whose start we covered back in episode one of the show 116 00:09:38,460 --> 00:09:44,760 i encourage you to go back and listen to that if you haven't (https://probably-delete.transistor.fm/s1/1). For people like that 118 00:09:45,260 --> 00:09:51,460 TV really could sell books. And that's true whether it's national tv appearances 119 00:09:51,460 --> 00:09:59,160 on places like Jack Parr or later Johnny Carson or other late night tv programs or 120 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:07,200 local tv. Either national or local could be effective. But there were some books and some 121 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:14,640 authors for whom TV appearances would not move books. Gottlieb said "we couldn't sell a french 122 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:15,240 novelist 123 00:10:15,260 --> 00:10:25,680 by sending him on a nationwide book tour." Back to print advertising even with the rise of TV 124 00:10:25,680 --> 00:10:34,520 and the lack of cost effectiveness of print ads publishing houses still used print 125 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:42,880 print remained important to individual writers. 126 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:45,240 the writers not only 127 00:10:45,260 --> 00:10:51,100 enjoyed seeing them but took them as a gauge of the publisher's belief in them 128 00:10:51,100 --> 00:10:59,000 so print ads acted as a vote of confidence in the writer from the publishing house 129 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:06,360 and that's how the writers viewed it and you can kind of understand why an individual writer 130 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:13,240 might want print ads because it's something that you could go and cut out you could show to your 131 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:13,480 friends and family you could sell them to a publisher and that's how the writers viewed it 132 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:24,360 and because of this publishers kept using print ads for certain authors because that's what the 133 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:34,620 authors expected, so the publishers had to do it last we'll end with gottlieb's view of what 134 00:11:34,620 --> 00:11:43,220 publishing is and as you'll see many of them relate to book promotion first 135 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:51,500 publishing is the business of conveying your own honest enthusiasm for a book and a writer 136 00:11:51,500 --> 00:11:59,660 to the rest of the world i've got not much more to say other than that's really well put 137 00:11:59,660 --> 00:12:06,620 the business of publishing and marketing a book is to convey your own honest enthusiasm for that 138 00:12:06,620 --> 00:12:13,460 book to the rest of the world second if you believe in publishing you're not going to be able to get 139 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:19,060 In a book, there are others who will too, because you're not special. 140 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:21,860 This one's really interesting. 141 00:12:22,740 --> 00:12:26,140 He is saying, you're not unique in your tastes, 142 00:12:26,580 --> 00:12:30,320 and your interests will be shared by many, many other people. 143 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:33,060 Even though he's talking about books, 144 00:12:33,060 --> 00:12:38,640 this insight well describes much of the power of the Internet. 145 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:46,820 If you have an interest, there are probably many thousands and thousands of people on the Internet 146 00:12:46,820 --> 00:12:53,740 who share that interest with you, and you can then use the Internet to find them. 147 00:12:54,900 --> 00:13:00,580 Third, "Every book has its own potential readership. 148 00:13:01,500 --> 00:13:04,740 Figure out what it is and reach for it. 149 00:13:05,100 --> 00:13:08,620 Don't try to sell every book to everyone." 150 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:14,100 The third pairs well with the second that we just talked about. 151 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:19,100 It's a great reminder, I think, for every author and publisher. 152 00:13:19,980 --> 00:13:21,460 Not every book is for everyone. 153 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:26,400 You shouldn't write a book for everyone, and you shouldn't market a book for everyone. 154 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:30,300 You should write it not for everyone, but for someone. 155 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:34,020 Find the right market. Find the right someone. 156 00:13:36,020 --> 00:13:38,620 Fourth, 157 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:40,580 "Take every detail seriously, 158 00:13:41,140 --> 00:13:45,240 since we don't know what makes certain books do better than others, 159 00:13:45,780 --> 00:13:48,920 except, of course, their innate qualities." 160 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:54,940 And fifth, which he says may be hardest to accept, is 161 00:13:54,940 --> 00:13:57,640 "Readers aren't stupid." 162 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:04,380 Readers' tastes, judgment, and instincts "may prove to be sounder than" your own. 163 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:08,100 Hopefully, in that, 164 00:14:08,100 --> 00:14:11,100 you've found at least one nugget of wisdom or entertainment 165 00:14:11,100 --> 00:14:16,940 from the various quotes that we covered and from the points we discussed from Gottlieb. 166 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:20,100 For the postscript on today's episode, 167 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:25,980 I'm pulling from an interview that Gottlieb gave to Terry Gross of Fresh Air. 168 00:14:26,740 --> 00:14:32,960 In that interview, she asked a question about his view of the decline in book culture 169 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:35,120 and the importance of books. 170 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:37,540 And Gottlieb was, 171 00:14:38,100 --> 00:14:40,880 he didn't agree, he rejected the premise 172 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:47,180 and said that there are still lots of people who care very much about books 173 00:14:47,180 --> 00:14:50,240 and that books are still really important. 174 00:14:50,660 --> 00:14:55,060 He didn't have a negative view of the health of books or of book culture. 175 00:14:56,120 --> 00:15:00,440 And I think that can be refreshing for people in the publishing industry to hear, 176 00:15:00,940 --> 00:15:03,760 that it still is vibrant and important. 177 00:15:04,380 --> 00:15:06,520 And at least during the pandemic, 178 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:08,080 and even the numbers from, 179 00:15:08,100 --> 00:15:12,180 from 2024 suggest that book sales are growing. 180 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:14,720 So I wanted to end on that positive note. 181 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:16,800 For the bibliography, 182 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:21,620 obviously, we've got the book that we've been talking about this whole episode. 183 00:15:22,100 --> 00:15:25,600 Again, it is Avid Reader, A Life, 184 00:15:26,340 --> 00:15:28,260 written by Robert Gottlieb, 185 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:34,540 published in 2016 by Farrar, Strauss, and Giroux. 186 00:15:35,540 --> 00:15:36,940 Gottlieb wrote other books. 187 00:15:36,940 --> 00:15:38,080 This one is his, 188 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:40,380 his memoir of his life as an editor. 189 00:15:41,660 --> 00:15:46,780 I will say that it is filled with kind of name dropping of authors 190 00:15:46,780 --> 00:15:52,080 and other sort of notable or famous people that he worked with or rubbed elbows with. 191 00:15:52,820 --> 00:15:54,940 But for the average reader, 192 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:57,080 and maybe I'm counting myself, 193 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:01,060 most of the names in the book will likely mean very little. 194 00:16:01,700 --> 00:16:03,020 For some of you, however, 195 00:16:03,020 --> 00:16:07,980 you fit nicely in that target market for his book. 196 00:16:08,540 --> 00:16:10,460 If you're in that target audience, 197 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:12,660 I encourage you to pick it up. 198 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:17,460 Join me next time for another episode of 199 00:16:17,460 --> 00:16:19,540 I'll Probably Delete This, 200 00:16:19,540 --> 00:16:24,380 where we'll explore more stories from authors, 201 00:16:25,060 --> 00:16:27,100 storytellers, great books, 202 00:16:27,420 --> 00:16:30,500 and the people involved in publishing them. 203 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:32,880 Happy reading. 204 00:16:33,420 --> 00:16:37,580 Thanks, everybody.