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Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.

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I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling

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author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.

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Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge

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thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.

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I have a request.

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If you like what we do, please
like, subscribe, tell a friend.

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It really helps us get this work done.

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As you might know from my
books, I'm an autism dad.

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And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several

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equine assisted, neuroscience
backed certification programs.

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If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.

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com.

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So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.

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Welcome back.

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I'm your host Rupert
Isaacson, and I've got Dr.

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Chantel Pratt with me today
who's a neuroscientist.

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And as you know, in our work movement
method, horse Boy Method Tacking, we like

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neuroscience because we tend to be working
with the brain and the nervous system.

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So it's sort of logical for us to look to
neuroscientists who hopefully understand

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about such things for mentorship.

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So I'm excited to have Chantel on today.

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Chantel's also a horse, woman
and has dived into that side

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of neuroscience as well.

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So we get to ask her some questions
about horses', brains but also about.

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The interaction between a human brain
and what goes on with horses, because

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those of us who are involved in
the therapeutic and equine assisted

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world need to know these things.

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And because the science is rapidly
developing all the time and changing,

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we sort of rely on people like
Chantel to keep us up to snuff.

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So Chantel, welcome.

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Thank you for coming on.

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Who are you and what do you do?

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Dr. Chantel Prat:

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Thank you so much for having me.

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You might have noticed that I laughed
a little bit when you said Dr.

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Chantel Pratt.

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It's true.

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I am a doctor, but I'm also
a first gen college student.

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My husband and I both were
raised by people with high school

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educations and I still, I mean,
I think I got my PhD in 2004.

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But it's still more often
than not someone's making fun

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of me when they call me Dr.

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Pratt.

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'cause I've just crashed into a.

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Hole with an ice cream cone
or something like this.

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But nonetheless, yes, it is true.

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And and I really deeply believe that
science is an important way for asking

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and understanding these big questions
that at the end of the day feel

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almost more ethereal or I was going
to say metaphysical, but like when you

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were talking about myself as a horse
person and myself as a neuroscientist.

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I thought like both of these are really
hard things to understand and I, I

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just wanna start by say, I'm gonna
give you my credentials and what have

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you, but I just wanna start by saying
that probably because of how long I've

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been studying these things, and I'm
talking, looking at pictures of brains,

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you know, doing the numbers you know,
working with baby and, and older horses.

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And I have a huge amount of humility
and I, and I probably am much more

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aware of all of the things I don't
know than the things I do know, because

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these are really complicated questions
and really intense, immense goals.

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So.

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That being said I am a neuroscientist,
a psychologist, and a linguist at the

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University of Washington in Seattle.

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My research for over 25 years has been
looking at individual differences in

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how the brain gives rise to the mind.

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So I am a cognitive neuroscientist
by training, which is a fun thing

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to say when somebody asks you at the
bar, because they either will leave

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you alone, pretend to understand
what it means or ask the question.

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But, you know, neuroscience is
a huge field and some people

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are really, you know, trying to
understand it at the chemical level.

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And some people are very interested
in the nervous system from the

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neck down, the, you know, the, the
body and the spine and all of that

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important stuff, vagal and et cetera.

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And I have really been focused on the
sense-making aspects of the brain and.

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Not just the sense-making aspects of the
brain, but how our individual biology

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and experiences give rise to the way
that we connect the dots when we try and

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understand the world and our place in it.

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And this is huge.

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You know, we were talking to, I
was, I started by saying I have a

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lot of humility about this, but I
just wanna point out that our, our

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brain is about 86 billion neurons.

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It's one of the most, if not the most
complex systems studied by humans.

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It's totally crazy to get into the idea
that your brain is studying itself.

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So all of the limits we have in
understanding the thing are, you know,

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it, it's, it's a closed loop system here.

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But even though the brain is complex
and powerful, it's, it's finite

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and it tries to understand and
operate in this infinite world.

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This infinite world full of energy
that is constantly changing by

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taking discreet bite-sized chunks of
information and then connecting the dots.

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We're constantly trying to figure out
what's going on now based on what's

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happened to us in the past, and
we're constantly trying to predict

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the future, but we really don't
like our understanding of the now.

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The past and the future is
just largely inferential.

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It's largely connecting the dots
and people see, think, and feel

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differently because they have different
brains and different experiences

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that have shaped those brains.

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Rupert Isaacson: Tell us about your
book and the studies that went into

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that book because this is really,
seems to be at the heart of your

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work is, is looking at individuality.

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Dr. Chantel Prat:

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Mm-hmm.

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Yeah.

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Rupert Isaacson: And what that means.

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Dr. Chantel Prat:

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Yeah.

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Rupert Isaacson: So yeah,
so tell us about it.

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Dr. Chantel Prat:

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My book is called The Neuroscience
of You, how Every Brain Is Different

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and How to Understand Yours.

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And, you know, the book was created
with the goal of helping people

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understand themselves first and foremost.

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I think you know, I've been arguing that
theories about how the brain gives rise

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to the mind that are one size fits all,
which is the vast majority of research

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that exists don't fit anyone very well.

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It's just like one size
fits all T-shirt, right?

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It's down to your knees or, or not.

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And and importantly, I think in
that process of helping people

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understand themselves, I hope I am
laying a foundation for, for helping

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people to relate across differences.

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So if we think that
there's one way to learn.

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Well, if we think there's one way to
be intelligent, if we think there's one

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style of decision making that is good,
we, we operate in this totally false

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paradigm that makes us see differences
as better, better or worseness, right?

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We, we, we naturally line
up like, oh, I'm smarter.

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I'm better at math.

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I have a good memory.

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I am, and, and the truth is that the
human humans are social primates.

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Our brains evolved to solve problems
collectively in groups, in small family

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groups mostly, or small tribal groups.

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Because of this and because their vast
power and because we can never understand

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the infinite ever-changing world, these
differences are features, not bugs.

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We, we, there are trade-offs in
the different ways that we can be.

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And the book talks about things that
vary from introversion and extroversion

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and how that's explained by our
dopamine reward system to whether

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we are like strongly right-handed,
strongly left-handed ambidextrous.

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And what this says about how jobs get
assigned to our two hemispheres, always

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looking at trade-offs, always looking
at the match rather than saying, this

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brain design is better or worse, looking
at what is this brain design well.

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Well designed to do what is the
match between what I am asking

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my brain to do and my natural
predispositions and the things I've

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learned from my previous experiences.

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So, I mean, I'm, I'm about, when we
get off this podcast, I'm going to

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start week 10 of a class that I'm
teaching here at the University of

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Washington with 30 undergrads who
have gone through the book, done a lot

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of me, what I call me search, right?

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Done a lot of tests to figure
out how their brains work.

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And probably the thing that I'm
proudest about is to hear people move

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from saying things like, I'm bad at
attention, or I'm bad at memory, or I'm.

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This way and that way to saying
like, there's a trade off, or I know

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that I'm better at this than that.

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And just that the sort of self-acceptance
and awareness that comes from

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understanding, from moving from a sort
of strength deficit idea towards thinking

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about the match between the environment
and what you're asking your brain to do.

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Rupert Isaacson: Of course, the
environments that we find ourselves in are

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largely determined by economics, right?

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Yeah.

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And so the diversely,

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express,

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ishness of the human species,
which I presume must be

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across all mammalian species.

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Mm-hmm.

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Presumably comes about because any
natural environment has an infinitude of.

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Potential things that can happen.

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Mm-hmm.

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And you might be, you might
specialize, so you might be more

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hunter or gatherer if you are.

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Mm-hmm.

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Within hunter gatherer, you
might be more, you might be more

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running hunter or bow hunter.

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Mm-hmm.

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Or tracker.

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Mm-hmm.

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You might be more medicinal plant person.

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You might be more really able to discern
between plants that almost look the same

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as each other, doppelganger type plants.

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Mm-hmm.

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Or you might be the person that
can really get up well in the

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trees and shake down the nuts.

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So you could see, you could
definitely see why all of these.

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This infinitude of brains would evolve.

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Mm-hmm.

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In any kind of, and I think

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Dr. Chantel Prat:

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more so, more so in, in
animals that exist in packs.

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Right.

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So I think that there are revolutionary
so I think that like, you know, I, this

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is not a brain thing, but I, I always
compare the human brain to the pea

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cocktail where it's like, okay, you can
say this pea cocktail is better or worse

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than this peacock tail based on how long
it is or how colorful it is, or, you know.

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So I think in like, less collaborative
animals, there probably are things

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that are more adaptive than others,
but there are always differences.

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Right.

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I guess the way selection, selection
has unfolded for humans, you know, we

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selected four differences for sure.

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Rupert Isaacson: Right.

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So we also have the ability
to pool our knowledge.

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Right.

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So

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Dr. Chantel Prat:

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Correct.

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Rupert Isaacson: And make strategies.

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Dr. Chantel Prat:

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Mm-hmm.

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Rupert Isaacson: That seems to
be our, our biggest superpower.

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We're sort of.

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Victims of our own success perhaps.

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Yeah.

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But you could also see how we've arrived
in the kind of culture that you and I live

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in at a point where economically now we've
almost specialized our environment to a

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point where only certain types of brain
can thrive in an easy or straightforward

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manner, and other types of brain

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get undervalued.

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Dr. Chantel Prat:

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Mm-hmm.

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Rupert Isaacson: And for real reasons,
because within that more narrow economic

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confine, indeed there are only like
these three or four types of brain that,

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you know, really do well with that.

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And all those other ones,
perhaps not so much.

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And this leads us into, or
here's a, is a question.

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Does this lead us into a
false set of assumptions?

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About normality.

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Mm-hmm.

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And where we think normality is
being able to conform to that narrow

00:12:33.099 --> 00:12:38.199
economic construct, whereas in
fact, that narrow economic construct

00:12:38.199 --> 00:12:40.599
itself is, is an abnormality.

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Mm-hmm.

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In the sort of greater history of mankind.

00:12:44.645 --> 00:12:45.065
Mm-hmm.

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And therefore, we're actually
mistaken, but we're sort of

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right and wrong at the same time.

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And then if you come along with someone
like me who would say, well, my experience

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of maths at school in the way that I was
taught means that I think I'm bad at math.

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Later on when I had to homeschool my
son in math, I realized that being bad

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at math was actually kind of a good
thing because it meant, meant I could

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empathize with somebody who was No.

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And, and I could, I could look at.

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How to break things down.

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So I had to understand it first, and
if I could understand it with the

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difficulties I had, then there was perhaps
a sporting chance that he might Mm.

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Or they actually turned out to
be better than me, of course.

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But

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I guess the question I'm asking is, do
you still feel in this day and age of

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the recognition of diversity, which is
different to when we were kids, that the

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sort of narrow idea of what's normal and
what's not normal and what's a, a good

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brain and what's a bad brain, or has,
has that now not all broken down a bit?

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Or am I just living under completely
false solutions because I work within

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this field and think that people are
actually, are, are people still stuck

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in these ideas of normal and, uh mm-hmm.

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Yeah.

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Dr. Chantel Prat:

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So there's two, two
things I want to address.

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The first is about this particular
economic, the definition of good

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being based on what makes money
or what functions in the way

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we've set up Western societies.

00:14:22.810 --> 00:14:22.960
Mm-hmm.

00:14:23.170 --> 00:14:25.360
And then you started to
answer the question by talking

00:14:25.360 --> 00:14:27.569
about teaching your sons.

00:14:28.079 --> 00:14:29.670
I think it starts in education.

00:14:29.670 --> 00:14:32.310
I think the big problem is
actually how education is set

00:14:32.310 --> 00:14:34.110
up, not how industry is set up.

00:14:34.110 --> 00:14:37.979
And I think that our
educational systems are largely.

00:14:38.225 --> 00:14:39.515
Set up.

00:14:39.605 --> 00:14:44.735
I mean, it just boggles the mind because
education is set up from a time in which

00:14:44.735 --> 00:14:48.275
only the teacher had the knowledge and
like, you know, you're supposed to sit

00:14:48.275 --> 00:14:52.295
and sit still and listen because you
have to transfer in this laborious way,

00:14:52.295 --> 00:14:54.095
knowledge from one brain to another.

00:14:54.095 --> 00:15:00.425
And we're so far, we've, we have evolved
as a society, not as a brain, because

00:15:00.425 --> 00:15:03.965
where the brain is coming from, written
language is still new and hard, right?

00:15:03.965 --> 00:15:07.475
So when you think about chat, GPT and
all this stuff, like we've come so far,

00:15:07.475 --> 00:15:12.785
but yet we still have this model in
which kids are supposed to sit still

00:15:12.785 --> 00:15:15.005
and passively absorb instruction.

00:15:15.005 --> 00:15:21.055
And that is so far from how any brain
evolved to learn and problem solve.

00:15:21.610 --> 00:15:26.530
That I think you know, the challenges
when it comes to value and what

00:15:26.530 --> 00:15:30.699
we value start much earlier
than, than in the economic cri.

00:15:31.030 --> 00:15:31.479
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:15:31.479 --> 00:15:35.199
And you talk, there is a correlation
between that and industry, right.

00:15:35.199 --> 00:15:37.959
Because of course, making
kids sit down, shut up and

00:15:38.949 --> 00:15:38.950
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:15:38.949 --> 00:15:39.280
Yeah.

00:15:39.280 --> 00:15:39.609
Behave

00:15:39.609 --> 00:15:41.709
Rupert Isaacson: was part of preparing
them to go work in factories,

00:15:41.709 --> 00:15:41.710
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:15:41.709 --> 00:15:42.729
sit in front of a Yes.

00:15:42.729 --> 00:15:43.870
Sit in front of a computer and,

00:15:43.905 --> 00:15:44.194
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

00:15:44.290 --> 00:15:44.589
Yeah.

00:15:44.589 --> 00:15:47.800
So I mean, does not one create the other?

00:15:48.400 --> 00:15:48.401
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:15:48.400 --> 00:15:50.170
Yes, but not necessarily.

00:15:50.170 --> 00:15:54.550
I think what, and I think both to
your question about where are we

00:15:54.550 --> 00:16:00.439
now, I think both are, coming to
understand and appreciate differences.

00:16:00.469 --> 00:16:00.559
Mm-hmm.

00:16:00.779 --> 00:16:01.979
For different reasons.

00:16:01.979 --> 00:16:05.009
So like I would argue,
and, you know, I do.

00:16:05.009 --> 00:16:09.719
So, I am on the advisory board for Ariana
Huffington, who founded the Huffington

00:16:09.719 --> 00:16:13.979
Post, has a company called Thrive Global,
and it's about wellness in the workplace.

00:16:13.979 --> 00:16:18.839
And we're creating a training there
about diversity in the workplace

00:16:18.839 --> 00:16:23.489
and specifically about the benefits
in decision making that come when

00:16:23.489 --> 00:16:26.399
you have different brains with
different backgrounds at the table.

00:16:26.399 --> 00:16:32.219
So I think I would argue that
there is an economic advantage to

00:16:32.249 --> 00:16:34.709
considering many different brain types.

00:16:35.054 --> 00:16:39.884
To having people who think, again, as
we evolve to think and make decisions

00:16:39.884 --> 00:16:44.624
in groups, to valuing people with these
different brain types at the table.

00:16:44.624 --> 00:16:50.174
And when you create work environments
that support different kinds of thinkers

00:16:50.174 --> 00:16:55.664
and deciders, and you incorporate
their ideas, you also create products

00:16:55.664 --> 00:16:59.234
that work for more kinds of thinkers.

00:16:59.234 --> 00:17:00.104
Mm-hmm.

00:17:00.204 --> 00:17:09.234
So there, and, and and so I think we are
at a sort of turning point where, you

00:17:09.234 --> 00:17:13.794
know, I, I've been spending more and more
time with C-level execs who understand.

00:17:14.424 --> 00:17:19.704
That diversity is not only about sitting
around a table with people who look

00:17:19.704 --> 00:17:21.744
different than you and think the same.

00:17:21.744 --> 00:17:22.494
That's not it.

00:17:22.494 --> 00:17:23.814
That's not the magic sauce.

00:17:23.814 --> 00:17:27.354
It's sitting around a table with
people with different experiences and

00:17:27.354 --> 00:17:31.044
different brain types that they can
bring into this decision making space

00:17:31.044 --> 00:17:37.854
and learning how to appreciate these
different perspectives and find something

00:17:38.034 --> 00:17:41.544
that will work well for more people.

00:17:41.754 --> 00:17:44.064
That there are a lot of
advantages in that space

00:17:44.094 --> 00:17:48.414
Rupert Isaacson: is industry
actually now Refinding the

00:17:48.414 --> 00:17:53.274
hunter-gatherer model because
industry itself has become so diverse.

00:17:53.274 --> 00:17:54.235
You know, it used to be.

00:17:54.235 --> 00:17:54.354
Mm-hmm.

00:17:54.864 --> 00:17:59.634
A factory was sort of a factory and it ran
with an assembly line and you know, you,

00:18:00.054 --> 00:18:03.985
and it's now looking very, very different.

00:18:03.985 --> 00:18:07.975
And in a few years, robots
will do all that anyway and.

00:18:09.474 --> 00:18:14.034
Are we at the point now this interesting
point where we're returning to a sort

00:18:14.034 --> 00:18:19.104
of hunter-gatherer economy, but that's
post-industrial, where we actually

00:18:19.284 --> 00:18:22.674
now suddenly realize, oh my gosh,
yes, we do need to create products

00:18:22.674 --> 00:18:25.554
for all these different brains, but
this is actually, again, quite new

00:18:25.554 --> 00:18:30.054
within the, since the Industrial
revolution, things were more homogenized.

00:18:30.544 --> 00:18:30.604
Yeah.

00:18:30.634 --> 00:18:31.774
Interesting that, that you're there.

00:18:33.814 --> 00:18:35.314
What, what do you say?

00:18:35.314 --> 00:18:37.864
You're working with
these CEOs and so forth.

00:18:38.659 --> 00:18:42.409
What are they saying about this
and what are they, and then how

00:18:42.529 --> 00:18:47.899
are they able to make their work
environments possible for Yeah.

00:18:48.229 --> 00:18:49.609
People with these different brains.

00:18:50.419 --> 00:18:52.684
That's not just lip service saying,
well, we're gonna hire Right.

00:18:52.689 --> 00:18:53.749
So people Right.

00:18:53.749 --> 00:18:54.199
Exactly.

00:18:54.199 --> 00:18:55.189
Gonna hire so and so.

00:18:55.249 --> 00:18:55.699
Exactly.

00:18:55.699 --> 00:18:57.589
But they're gonna just go
and shred paper or whatever.

00:18:57.799 --> 00:18:58.819
Yeah, exactly.

00:18:58.819 --> 00:18:58.820
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:18:58.819 --> 00:18:59.509
Exactly.

00:18:59.509 --> 00:19:02.269
And so I think that that's,
that's the real work.

00:19:02.269 --> 00:19:05.539
So your, your vision of returning
to hunter gatherer is quite

00:19:05.539 --> 00:19:09.539
interesting because that's
the work is that, naturally.

00:19:09.599 --> 00:19:13.289
I think because of the way that
we understand one another, there's

00:19:13.289 --> 00:19:17.189
all this really interesting social
neuroscience work that shows that if

00:19:17.189 --> 00:19:22.469
we're in the wild and we're moving
around choosing our friends, we

00:19:22.469 --> 00:19:23.969
choose people who work like we do.

00:19:23.999 --> 00:19:25.259
Like you can predict.

00:19:25.259 --> 00:19:29.969
They did this crazy fascinating study
on an island in South Korea where they

00:19:30.034 --> 00:19:36.539
created a social network of like 700
villagers and then stuck them in a scanner

00:19:36.539 --> 00:19:40.379
and measured their brain connectivity
and showed that you could predict who

00:19:40.379 --> 00:19:46.139
would be friends with whom based on how
similarly their brains were wired, and

00:19:46.139 --> 00:19:50.879
that this explained, you know, friendships
above and beyond things like age.

00:19:51.459 --> 00:19:55.389
Politics, personality, so long
as they live close enough to

00:19:55.389 --> 00:19:57.219
have come into casual contact.

00:19:57.819 --> 00:20:03.549
When we're choosing people to spend time
with, we choose people who work like us.

00:20:03.549 --> 00:20:07.869
And I think that's because our sort of
default to mirror neurons and so forth

00:20:07.869 --> 00:20:14.169
and so on, allows us to make easier
intuitive inferences when somebody

00:20:14.169 --> 00:20:17.199
works like us now in the workplace.

00:20:17.259 --> 00:20:21.199
I think that often how this
translates is when they say somebody

00:20:21.199 --> 00:20:23.089
is not a good fit culturally.

00:20:23.089 --> 00:20:26.779
Like there are all these kind of like code
words when you're in hiring and you might

00:20:26.779 --> 00:20:31.819
say it's not a good fit for the culture
or, and I think that that's a feeling that

00:20:31.819 --> 00:20:36.409
comes when the person you're interviewing
has a different brain, a different

00:20:36.409 --> 00:20:38.839
thinking, feeling, behaving style.

00:20:39.469 --> 00:20:44.539
And I also think that we are more likely
to think someone who comes up with

00:20:44.539 --> 00:20:47.869
the same solution as we do is smarter.

00:20:48.849 --> 00:20:51.759
Because you can understand that solution.

00:20:51.819 --> 00:20:53.169
You agree with it.

00:20:53.169 --> 00:20:55.719
And so you're like, oh yeah, this
is a great person I have on my team.

00:20:55.719 --> 00:21:00.699
It's like duplicating Triplicating
myself, cloning myself.

00:21:00.729 --> 00:21:06.729
And so people need concrete
examples and evidence.

00:21:06.789 --> 00:21:07.299
It's hard.

00:21:07.299 --> 00:21:11.349
It's certainly harder to create
communication styles to create

00:21:11.379 --> 00:21:16.419
management systems that go away from
assumptions about how people think,

00:21:16.419 --> 00:21:21.309
feel, and operate towards, you know,
more personalized, individualized

00:21:21.309 --> 00:21:23.619
spaces that support these differences.

00:21:24.189 --> 00:21:28.299
And they need concrete examples for how
this is gonna make them money, right?

00:21:28.299 --> 00:21:29.739
And how the decision making will look.

00:21:29.739 --> 00:21:31.629
'cause it's not gonna feel.

00:21:32.784 --> 00:21:34.524
Like, oh, this is great.

00:21:34.524 --> 00:21:35.424
You're brilliant.

00:21:35.424 --> 00:21:36.204
I love you.

00:21:36.264 --> 00:21:37.584
It's gonna feel weird.

00:21:37.584 --> 00:21:41.844
Like, and so that's where I think
the, my book has helped give some

00:21:41.844 --> 00:21:43.644
kind of engineering examples.

00:21:43.644 --> 00:21:45.234
Like, this is how brains work.

00:21:45.234 --> 00:21:49.344
These are the weaknesses that are
associated with all these kind of fast,

00:21:49.344 --> 00:21:51.714
instant, probabilistic decision making.

00:21:51.744 --> 00:21:52.944
This is what you're missing.

00:21:52.944 --> 00:21:59.124
And so getting people to feel
curious about the brain across

00:21:59.124 --> 00:22:03.084
the table that is saying something
that you might think is asinine

00:22:05.274 --> 00:22:07.764
or doing something that
you might think is asinine.

00:22:07.794 --> 00:22:13.284
That's, I think, the magic and the secret
sauce, because every brain does things

00:22:13.284 --> 00:22:15.744
that they think are perfectly reasonable.

00:22:16.044 --> 00:22:19.074
Every brain, every single brain
is moving through the world trying

00:22:19.074 --> 00:22:23.154
to find good things and avoid
bad things based on their, their

00:22:23.154 --> 00:22:24.804
engineering and their experiences.

00:22:24.804 --> 00:22:29.304
So instead of thinking, why is this
idea asinine, asking questions about

00:22:29.304 --> 00:22:31.284
how that person got to that place.

00:22:32.424 --> 00:22:35.964
Is this kind of opening
experience for sort of,

00:22:38.244 --> 00:22:41.784
you know, sort of reconceptualizing
better or worse, right or

00:22:41.784 --> 00:22:43.404
wrong with what am I missing?

00:22:44.184 --> 00:22:44.244
Yeah.

00:22:44.604 --> 00:22:46.974
What is this person
highlighting that I missed?

00:22:47.064 --> 00:22:49.644
Rupert Isaacson: I just wrote down,
I just wrote curiosity underlined.

00:22:49.944 --> 00:22:49.945
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:22:49.944 --> 00:22:50.394
Yes.

00:22:50.424 --> 00:22:52.164
It's curiosity is the magic.

00:22:52.164 --> 00:22:54.864
It's my favorite thing that I
learned about in writing my book.

00:22:54.864 --> 00:22:56.394
And it's the secret sauce I think.

00:22:57.324 --> 00:22:58.194
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I agree.

00:22:58.194 --> 00:23:00.594
And I, you know, without
curiosity, there's no innovation.

00:23:00.594 --> 00:23:04.434
Without innovation, there's no
long-term thriving economically.

00:23:04.434 --> 00:23:04.734
Right.

00:23:04.734 --> 00:23:05.994
Because conditions change.

00:23:06.294 --> 00:23:10.494
So one has to, whether it's in hunter
gatherer context here, there could be

00:23:10.494 --> 00:23:15.204
a drought, there could be some natural
thing that causes the shifting of changes.

00:23:15.204 --> 00:23:15.294
Mm-hmm.

00:23:15.534 --> 00:23:16.314
Natural resources.

00:23:16.319 --> 00:23:16.439
Mm-hmm.

00:23:16.779 --> 00:23:20.579
Obviously market forces, you
know, we're seeing some disruptive

00:23:20.579 --> 00:23:25.649
market forces going on as we as,
as we speak here in March, 2025.

00:23:25.649 --> 00:23:26.969
It's an interesting time.

00:23:27.389 --> 00:23:27.509
Oh, boy.

00:23:27.559 --> 00:23:29.539
If you're not curious, I mean, yeah.

00:23:29.539 --> 00:23:33.499
How can you, how can you
thrive in these things?

00:23:33.499 --> 00:23:33.619
Right.

00:23:33.919 --> 00:23:36.829
I want to bring you back though,
to, you talked about mirror neurons.

00:23:37.339 --> 00:23:37.429
Mm-hmm.

00:23:37.669 --> 00:23:41.059
Mirror neurons are something which
you hear a lot of people talk about.

00:23:41.719 --> 00:23:41.809
Mm-hmm.

00:23:42.049 --> 00:23:45.499
But I've got a, I've just caught a
neuroscientist on the end of my screen.

00:23:45.829 --> 00:23:48.349
Tell us exactly what neuro,
what, what mirror neurons are.

00:23:49.519 --> 00:23:49.520
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:23:49.519 --> 00:23:52.639
Well, I can tell you exactly how they
were discovered and then I can tell

00:23:52.639 --> 00:23:54.289
you about the ambiguities of them.

00:23:54.289 --> 00:23:54.619
Right.

00:23:54.619 --> 00:23:56.089
So a mirror neuron.

00:23:56.554 --> 00:24:01.174
At its core is a neuron in the
brain that responds, that is both

00:24:01.174 --> 00:24:06.874
involved in generating an action in
the person themselves and when they

00:24:06.874 --> 00:24:09.694
observe someone else doing an action.

00:24:09.694 --> 00:24:14.314
So it was first discovered in
Italy in a monkey lab where they

00:24:14.314 --> 00:24:18.904
were actually trying, so they had
electrodes in this monkey's brain

00:24:18.994 --> 00:24:22.679
and they were doing they were, you
know, I don't know, putting fruit.

00:24:23.574 --> 00:24:24.924
On a tray in front of the monkey.

00:24:24.924 --> 00:24:28.644
And what they wanted to see is
like what part of the motor cortex

00:24:29.004 --> 00:24:32.604
executes a specific grabbing response.

00:24:32.604 --> 00:24:36.264
So there's a lot of motor pro, a lot
of brain is involved in just motor

00:24:36.264 --> 00:24:41.184
programming and what they found, so
they had, you know, these motor cortex

00:24:41.274 --> 00:24:44.554
neurons isolated for this monkey's hand.

00:24:44.554 --> 00:24:48.214
And what they found was the experimenter
who was a human, by the way.

00:24:48.784 --> 00:24:51.094
Obviously, I guess, I
mean, would be really cool.

00:24:51.109 --> 00:24:51.229
I

00:24:51.229 --> 00:24:51.669
Rupert Isaacson: should be surprised.

00:24:51.669 --> 00:24:51.672
I mean, it

00:24:52.269 --> 00:24:52.270
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:24:52.269 --> 00:24:54.004
would be really cool to have monkeys.

00:24:54.054 --> 00:24:58.434
But anyway, it was a human, that
Italian monkeys, no, that exactly.

00:24:58.434 --> 00:25:00.624
They're very social and very, very smart.

00:25:01.054 --> 00:25:04.774
But the, when the human put like
the, you know, the fruit, the treat

00:25:04.774 --> 00:25:08.884
on the tray, they used the same
grasp, the same motion that they

00:25:08.884 --> 00:25:10.174
were trying to study in the monkey.

00:25:10.174 --> 00:25:13.984
And they found these neurons started
firing these neurons that were supposed

00:25:13.984 --> 00:25:19.654
to be for motor programming started
firing when they saw someone else.

00:25:20.239 --> 00:25:22.579
Do the action that they
are supposed to do.

00:25:22.579 --> 00:25:28.399
So we know that there are populations
of neurons in the human brain that

00:25:28.399 --> 00:25:32.689
are both involved in the per, it's
really important for language.

00:25:32.689 --> 00:25:38.350
For instance, there are neurons in,
around, in and around the sort of speech

00:25:38.399 --> 00:25:44.970
bro's area that will listen to speech
sounds and they sort of activate the

00:25:44.970 --> 00:25:48.810
motor plan that would create those
speech sounds and that helps them

00:25:48.810 --> 00:25:49.355
understand where, where are the brain?

00:25:49.355 --> 00:25:49.356
Are

00:25:49.360 --> 00:25:50.100
Rupert Isaacson: these located

00:25:50.760 --> 00:25:50.761
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:25:50.760 --> 00:25:52.860
mostly in the frontal cortex?

00:25:53.520 --> 00:25:57.300
So they're mostly in the, I would
say, both sides of the frontal cortex.

00:25:57.629 --> 00:26:04.679
Now what happens is, I think so, so
the criteria for something to be a

00:26:04.679 --> 00:26:12.780
mirror neuron specifically is that
I both generate a behavior and.

00:26:13.215 --> 00:26:17.025
I respond when I see other
people doing that behavior.

00:26:17.025 --> 00:26:17.055
Okay.

00:26:17.745 --> 00:26:22.305
And, and that's, and so like, you know,
in the original research on animals,

00:26:22.305 --> 00:26:25.825
we had an you know, an electrode
in the brain and we were really

00:26:25.825 --> 00:26:27.745
specific about what was going on.

00:26:27.955 --> 00:26:31.615
Now there's, I think that the research
has gotten fuzzier because when

00:26:31.615 --> 00:26:35.365
you're looking at human brains and
you don't have electrodes in them,

00:26:35.365 --> 00:26:38.755
there are a lot of parts of the brain
that do a lot of different things.

00:26:39.565 --> 00:26:43.255
And so, you know, the mirror I, to
the best of my knowledge, mirror

00:26:43.255 --> 00:26:48.325
re neuron research has become
controversial in some areas.

00:26:48.325 --> 00:26:53.095
So like, one of the things that I think
is quite evocative is the idea that mirror

00:26:53.095 --> 00:26:57.685
neurons are involved in empathy and and.

00:26:59.065 --> 00:27:02.845
One of the reasons I think this
is evocative is how hard it is to

00:27:03.325 --> 00:27:05.095
just, is empathy a single thing?

00:27:05.095 --> 00:27:10.435
How hard it is to define empathy, how hard
it is to catch a brain being empathetic.

00:27:10.795 --> 00:27:14.575
And so usually when they study, you
know, you have to think about this.

00:27:14.575 --> 00:27:18.295
If you're thinking about flow or like
creativity or things that are really

00:27:18.295 --> 00:27:20.065
cool that we actually wanna understand.

00:27:20.395 --> 00:27:24.745
If we can't time it to the precise
millisecond, if we can't catch it

00:27:24.745 --> 00:27:30.895
in action, if we can't cause it, how
sure can we be that we're studying it?

00:27:30.895 --> 00:27:34.585
So with with empathy, often what
they do is watch somebody get hurt.

00:27:34.915 --> 00:27:40.075
It's like a physical pain, empathy,
and it, and then you're looking at

00:27:40.075 --> 00:27:45.385
like, activation in the sort of somatic
somatosensory areas and you know.

00:27:46.030 --> 00:27:46.600
Similar.

00:27:46.600 --> 00:27:49.420
Like you see somebody get hit
with a ball or something and you

00:27:49.420 --> 00:27:52.030
look for like the feeling of pain.

00:27:52.035 --> 00:27:52.285
Yeah.

00:27:52.395 --> 00:27:53.405
Rupert Isaacson: They get hit in the army.

00:27:53.465 --> 00:27:54.565
Clutch your arm, right?

00:27:54.670 --> 00:27:54.671
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:27:54.670 --> 00:27:55.090
Yeah.

00:27:55.090 --> 00:27:55.420
Right.

00:27:55.420 --> 00:27:57.460
And you I do, I definitely feel, yeah.

00:27:57.790 --> 00:28:01.030
You know, that's why I, like, we have,
I, I probably shouldn't talk about this,

00:28:01.030 --> 00:28:04.960
but like we have a divide in my family
about nut shot videos and whether or not

00:28:04.960 --> 00:28:09.040
they're hysterical, I like feel it, I
don't, obviously don't have testicles,

00:28:09.040 --> 00:28:13.750
but like I feel the pain from those so
viscerally that I can't, they're both

00:28:14.320 --> 00:28:15.581
Rupert Isaacson: painful and funny.

00:28:15.581 --> 00:28:16.045
I'd say that they're both right.

00:28:16.045 --> 00:28:16.360
But my husband

00:28:16.360 --> 00:28:16.361
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:28:16.360 --> 00:28:19.600
and my daughter think they're
hysterical and will cry and just

00:28:19.600 --> 00:28:21.550
watch like endless snapshot videos.

00:28:21.550 --> 00:28:25.360
So I'm like, okay, is that something
different about our mirror neurons?

00:28:25.450 --> 00:28:26.200
Like, I don't know.

00:28:26.350 --> 00:28:27.910
It certainly crosses gender.

00:28:27.910 --> 00:28:30.880
So, I don't know what's going
on there, but, but that's a very

00:28:30.880 --> 00:28:32.350
specific kind of empathy, right?

00:28:32.350 --> 00:28:37.540
So I, you know, to the extent that
that generalizes to cognitive pain, you

00:28:37.540 --> 00:28:39.650
know, to emotional pain I don't know.

00:28:39.650 --> 00:28:42.500
But, but the, you know, when it comes to.

00:28:43.430 --> 00:28:46.190
How we understand one another
and how we understand our horses.

00:28:46.190 --> 00:28:50.870
I think this is fascinating 'cause
the, you know, the idea is that

00:28:50.870 --> 00:28:54.710
mirror neurons is kind of a way of
understanding through simulation, right?

00:28:54.710 --> 00:28:59.090
Like, I watch you do an action, the part
of my brain that would execute that action

00:28:59.420 --> 00:29:06.230
activates and I think ow or whatever, you
know, but I think this is why we're drawn

00:29:06.230 --> 00:29:08.090
to brains that work like ours in the wild.

00:29:08.120 --> 00:29:11.820
'cause this isn't mirror neurons
are intuitive, instinctual.

00:29:11.820 --> 00:29:13.830
It's, it's not learned.

00:29:13.830 --> 00:29:17.190
It's why little kids cover their
eyes and think they disappear.

00:29:17.520 --> 00:29:18.120
You know?

00:29:18.200 --> 00:29:25.100
This is our, the easiest way of
understanding one another, I think.

00:29:25.220 --> 00:29:26.210
And so.

00:29:26.930 --> 00:29:32.570
If you and I have totally different
wirings and I'm watching you behave,

00:29:32.870 --> 00:29:37.040
and I'm simulating it, and I'm thinking,
this is asinine, my brain is different.

00:29:37.040 --> 00:29:42.350
So when my brain walks through, thumbs
up, when my brain walks through, what

00:29:42.350 --> 00:29:46.590
it would be doing in that case, and I
have all these different priors and I

00:29:46.590 --> 00:29:51.330
have all these different wirings, and
I think that makes no sense whatsoever.

00:29:52.110 --> 00:29:54.960
Then it's like stepping into
shoes that are a different, you

00:29:54.960 --> 00:29:57.690
know, walking a mile in someone's
shoes that are a different size.

00:29:57.690 --> 00:30:02.460
So that's where I think the, the more,
what Paul Bloom, I think, wrote a book

00:30:02.460 --> 00:30:08.130
called Against Empathy, a, a Case for
Rational Compassion, where he talks

00:30:08.130 --> 00:30:14.510
about understanding in this more what we
call theory of mind way, which is a more

00:30:14.510 --> 00:30:21.450
abstract clue based use the information
to reverse engineer somebody else.

00:30:21.450 --> 00:30:25.980
And I think that kind of theory of
mind understanding is not as warm,

00:30:25.980 --> 00:30:34.600
it's not as a effective effective,
but it allows you, I think to

00:30:34.600 --> 00:30:38.770
understand people who work differently.

00:30:39.820 --> 00:30:42.580
Than you do, like you might and,
and with the horses, I think it's

00:30:42.580 --> 00:30:47.260
interesting to, to consider how
much we're feeling with a horse and

00:30:47.260 --> 00:30:50.560
getting it wrong because the horse
has a different experience than we do.

00:30:50.560 --> 00:30:50.620
Yeah.

00:30:51.070 --> 00:30:54.220
Versus using the bits and of,
you know, the bits we've learned

00:30:54.220 --> 00:30:58.510
about how horses work to kind of
rationalize what might be going

00:30:59.895 --> 00:31:03.490
Rupert Isaacson: on just
quickly, just to beat the, the

00:31:03.490 --> 00:31:04.900
dead horse on mirror neurons.

00:31:05.320 --> 00:31:05.440
Mm-hmm.

00:31:05.680 --> 00:31:09.940
I, am I correct in, in thinking that
a mirror neuron is not just a mirror

00:31:09.940 --> 00:31:11.890
neuron that a mirror neuron does?

00:31:11.890 --> 00:31:15.820
Lots of, might do other things, might
have other jobs it does as well.

00:31:15.850 --> 00:31:18.370
Of which the imitation

00:31:19.600 --> 00:31:19.601
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:31:19.600 --> 00:31:19.870
right

00:31:20.050 --> 00:31:21.970
Rupert Isaacson: thing, it's
just one function, but they could

00:31:21.970 --> 00:31:24.490
equally do other things as well?

00:31:24.670 --> 00:31:26.050
Or is it dedicated?

00:31:27.070 --> 00:31:27.071
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:31:27.070 --> 00:31:28.270
I don't know the answer to that.

00:31:28.540 --> 00:31:31.030
So I think that I mean they
have at least two jobs.

00:31:31.030 --> 00:31:33.070
One would be executing
the behavior in you.

00:31:33.075 --> 00:31:33.145
Mm-hmm.

00:31:33.225 --> 00:31:36.490
Like you don't only, so I guess maybe
that answers your question, that

00:31:36.490 --> 00:31:39.670
part of the brain in the monkeys
is firing when they're trying to

00:31:39.670 --> 00:31:43.750
grab a, a, a grape, whether they're
seeing someone else do it or not.

00:31:43.750 --> 00:31:48.010
So it is involved in social imitation
and learning, but it has a, a

00:31:48.010 --> 00:31:49.985
primary job in controlling your body.

00:31:50.830 --> 00:31:54.010
Rupert Isaacson: So if we're involved in
the sort of therapeutic writing end of

00:31:54.010 --> 00:32:00.130
things, which obviously a lot of people
listening to this show are what I presume

00:32:00.130 --> 00:32:06.680
that trying to optimize people's mirror
neuron development would be a useful

00:32:06.680 --> 00:32:16.600
thing because it helps them to learn how
to thrive in a confusing world by kind

00:32:16.600 --> 00:32:18.895
of learning which behaviors to emulate.

00:32:18.895 --> 00:32:19.600
Mm-hmm.

00:32:19.900 --> 00:32:22.720
What's the best.

00:32:23.905 --> 00:32:28.525
Advice that you would give to somebody
working in Sayan equine assisted

00:32:28.525 --> 00:32:33.235
field who wanted to help somebody
optimize their mirror neurons?

00:32:34.615 --> 00:32:34.616
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:32:34.615 --> 00:32:36.355
Do optimize them for other people or,

00:32:36.535 --> 00:32:37.465
Rupert Isaacson: well, for both.

00:32:37.465 --> 00:32:41.365
I mean, 'cause I should imagine cross
species, if you are, if you talk

00:32:41.365 --> 00:32:44.905
to a lot of autistic people, for
example, they'll say, well, it does

00:32:44.905 --> 00:32:47.245
feel like I'm dealing with another
species when I'm dealing with you.

00:32:47.820 --> 00:32:48.240
Mm-hmm.

00:32:48.320 --> 00:32:50.425
So whether I'm dealing with a
horse or whether I'm dealing with a

00:32:50.425 --> 00:32:52.315
neurotypical human, whatever that is.

00:32:52.885 --> 00:32:56.155
And then similarly for neurotypical
humans, when they're dealing with

00:32:56.695 --> 00:32:59.125
people on the spectrum, it can
feel like dealing with, it can feel

00:32:59.125 --> 00:33:00.295
like dealing with another species.

00:33:00.355 --> 00:33:02.785
And this is where the
communication breaks down.

00:33:03.415 --> 00:33:08.935
So how can we help ourselves
out neurologically Yeah.

00:33:09.505 --> 00:33:16.735
As the practitioners so that we can help
our, our, if you like, service users.

00:33:16.870 --> 00:33:16.871
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:33:16.870 --> 00:33:17.290
Mm-hmm.

00:33:18.480 --> 00:33:21.775
So my instinctive response is that.

00:33:22.345 --> 00:33:26.155
To the best of my knowledge, and I will
admit that I'm not an expert in this,

00:33:26.605 --> 00:33:29.785
the mirror neuron system is pretty

00:33:29.885 --> 00:33:35.375
I'm so hesitant to use the word innate,
but I guess what I would say is I would

00:33:35.495 --> 00:33:39.815
sca rather than trying to train the
mirror neuron system per se, I would

00:33:39.815 --> 00:33:42.005
be trying to train explicit behaviors.

00:33:42.005 --> 00:33:48.785
Like if the mirror neuron system is
working atypically, because this is

00:33:48.785 --> 00:33:50.495
something you see in, in infants.

00:33:50.495 --> 00:33:52.655
You see them imitating facial expressions.

00:33:52.655 --> 00:33:54.220
You, this is something
that's been milestones,

00:33:54.240 --> 00:33:54.540
Rupert Isaacson: et cetera.

00:33:54.550 --> 00:33:56.405
Those milestones are not happening, right?

00:33:56.405 --> 00:33:56.615
Yeah.

00:33:56.645 --> 00:33:56.646
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:33:56.645 --> 00:33:57.365
Right, right, right.

00:33:57.725 --> 00:34:02.165
So, I mean, it, it, it's either been
unfolding or not unfolding typically

00:34:02.165 --> 00:34:04.055
up until the point of intervention.

00:34:04.165 --> 00:34:08.545
So, you know, my, what I would be
doing is making the things that

00:34:08.575 --> 00:34:12.295
might be implicit to us explicit.

00:34:13.120 --> 00:34:13.960
To the learner.

00:34:14.020 --> 00:34:17.609
I think that that's a more
tractable learning technique.

00:34:17.759 --> 00:34:17.879
Right.

00:34:17.879 --> 00:34:18.270
Put that in

00:34:18.270 --> 00:34:21.330
Rupert Isaacson: terms that somebody
walking around an arena with a

00:34:21.330 --> 00:34:23.339
kid on a pony in Staffordshire

00:34:24.210 --> 00:34:24.211
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:34:24.210 --> 00:34:24.299
mm-hmm.

00:34:24.540 --> 00:34:25.440
Rupert Isaacson: On a Tuesday night.

00:34:26.520 --> 00:34:26.521
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:34:26.520 --> 00:34:27.330
So you want them stand and

00:34:27.330 --> 00:34:28.290
Rupert Isaacson: put into practice.

00:34:28.799 --> 00:34:28.801
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:34:28.799 --> 00:34:31.679
So again, is, are we trying
to get them to understand the

00:34:31.679 --> 00:34:33.629
pony or the, the instructor?

00:34:35.100 --> 00:34:36.299
Rupert Isaacson: That's a good question.

00:34:36.745 --> 00:34:39.585
If you're in the equine assisted
field, or if you're considering

00:34:39.585 --> 00:34:43.505
a career in the equine assisted
field, you might want to consider

00:34:43.575 --> 00:34:47.845
taking one of our three neuroscience
backed equine assisted programs.

00:34:47.905 --> 00:34:53.485
Horseboy method, now established
for 20 years, is the original

00:34:54.080 --> 00:35:00.390
Equine assisted program specifically
designed for autism, mentored by and

00:35:00.390 --> 00:35:03.060
developed in conjunction with Dr.

00:35:03.060 --> 00:35:05.940
Temple Grandin and many
other neuroscientists.

00:35:06.280 --> 00:35:09.550
We work in the saddle
with younger children.

00:35:10.045 --> 00:35:14.995
Helping them create oxytocin in their
bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain.

00:35:15.655 --> 00:35:17.095
It works incredibly well.

00:35:17.095 --> 00:35:18.815
It's now in about 40 countries.

00:35:19.525 --> 00:35:20.275
Check it out.

00:35:20.955 --> 00:35:25.105
If you're working without horses,
you might want to look at movement

00:35:25.115 --> 00:35:28.485
method, which gets a very, very
similar effect, but can also be

00:35:28.485 --> 00:35:30.235
applied in schools, in homes.

00:35:30.435 --> 00:35:35.425
If you're working with families, you can
give them really tangible exercises to do

00:35:35.425 --> 00:35:36.965
at home that will create neuroplasticity.

00:35:38.320 --> 00:35:39.600
when they're not with you.

00:35:40.110 --> 00:35:43.550
Finally, we have taquine
equine integration.

00:35:43.910 --> 00:35:46.530
If you know anything about our
programs, you know that we need a

00:35:46.530 --> 00:35:50.530
really high standard of horsemanship
in order to create the oxytocin

00:35:50.560 --> 00:35:54.850
in the body of the person that
we're working with, child or adult.

00:35:55.290 --> 00:35:58.630
So, this means we need to train
a horse in collection, but this

00:35:58.650 --> 00:36:02.890
also has a really beneficial
effect on the horse's well being.

00:36:03.090 --> 00:36:07.380
And it also ends your time conflict,
where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how

00:36:07.380 --> 00:36:10.680
am I going to condition my horses and
maintain them and give them what they

00:36:10.680 --> 00:36:13.775
need, as well as Serving my clients.

00:36:14.015 --> 00:36:18.515
Takine equine integration aimed
at a more adult client base

00:36:18.845 --> 00:36:20.495
absolutely gives you this.

00:36:20.605 --> 00:36:20.606
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:36:20.605 --> 00:36:23.695
Because for the pony, like I would say,
do you notice what his ears are doing?

00:36:23.725 --> 00:36:25.465
Like, what do you think that means?

00:36:25.575 --> 00:36:29.205
You know, and how about how does that
look compared to this Pony's ears?

00:36:29.205 --> 00:36:31.065
Like, you know, what
can we learn from this?

00:36:31.065 --> 00:36:35.745
And like with the instructor or with, you
know, Billy, you could say like, you know.

00:36:36.915 --> 00:36:39.855
When you said, Hey, shut up, or
whatever just happened, like,

00:36:39.855 --> 00:36:41.175
you know, what did you notice?

00:36:41.175 --> 00:36:46.695
You know, you know, did you see this
thing and you can like point out and now

00:36:46.965 --> 00:36:50.745
Rupert Isaacson: what if, what if the per,
that all sounds highly reasonable, and now

00:36:50.745 --> 00:36:54.555
what if the person doesn't have the kind
of brain that can receive information in

00:36:54.555 --> 00:36:56.235
that way, sort of top down instruction.

00:36:56.240 --> 00:36:56.390
Mm-hmm.

00:36:56.470 --> 00:36:56.870
Mm-hmm.

00:36:56.955 --> 00:37:00.870
So what if they're, what if they're
like severely autistic or mm-hmm.

00:37:01.090 --> 00:37:06.115
Away with the fairies in whatever way,
and you want to help to bring them into

00:37:07.045 --> 00:37:08.965
this type of empathetic cognition.

00:37:09.565 --> 00:37:09.745
Mm.

00:37:09.835 --> 00:37:13.405
So that, not so that they can be
changed, but just so that they

00:37:13.465 --> 00:37:15.535
don't get their ass kicked mm-hmm.

00:37:15.815 --> 00:37:17.765
Too heavily by the world that they're in.

00:37:19.385 --> 00:37:24.605
How could we, what, what, what are some
things that spring to mind for you?

00:37:25.685 --> 00:37:25.686
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:37:25.685 --> 00:37:27.095
So the thing that, to help kickstart that

00:37:27.095 --> 00:37:28.655
Rupert Isaacson: process,
theory of mind effectively.

00:37:29.165 --> 00:37:29.166
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:37:29.165 --> 00:37:29.555
Yeah.

00:37:30.135 --> 00:37:33.375
The thing that makes sense to me,
based on my understanding of the

00:37:33.375 --> 00:37:38.085
brains of people with autism is that
you've got a, the thing that you want

00:37:38.085 --> 00:37:41.865
them to learn about, you've gotta
restrict distracting information.

00:37:41.865 --> 00:37:45.745
So you would need to simplify
the world to the extent that

00:37:45.745 --> 00:37:51.655
you could make the learning item
of interest the most salient.

00:37:51.925 --> 00:37:56.605
So I hear you saying like, I'm on a
horse and I, and my brain is not verbal,

00:37:56.635 --> 00:37:58.765
or it's not programmable in this way.

00:37:58.885 --> 00:38:04.255
And part of that is because you're
the, you know, the things that they pay

00:38:04.255 --> 00:38:07.825
attention to are not as predictable as
the things that we pay attention to.

00:38:07.825 --> 00:38:12.705
Like, you can you in a neurotypical,
individual, you can, there are

00:38:12.705 --> 00:38:16.425
certain things like social cues,
like language, like faces that take

00:38:16.425 --> 00:38:21.895
priority a lot of times over things
that would be very salient for someone

00:38:21.895 --> 00:38:23.635
with autism, like repeated motion.

00:38:23.635 --> 00:38:24.085
Of course.

00:38:24.085 --> 00:38:27.685
That's, you know, that's what we're
working toward by, or like, machines,

00:38:27.685 --> 00:38:32.465
anything that's predictable is something
that might help attract their attention,

00:38:32.465 --> 00:38:37.535
which is kind of the exact opposite of the
noisy, chaotic human face and, and voice.

00:38:38.315 --> 00:38:43.745
So I guess, and I'm sure people have
done this because it seems obvious the,

00:38:45.815 --> 00:38:51.635
the learning should be happening
in a situation that is as free

00:38:51.635 --> 00:38:56.975
from other kinds of distraction
as possible to make the, the.

00:38:57.620 --> 00:39:02.480
The cue, you know, so when I think of
mirror neurons, I think of a match between

00:39:02.480 --> 00:39:04.700
what you're seeing and what you're doing.

00:39:05.480 --> 00:39:10.850
And to the extent that such a thing
could be trained you would want

00:39:10.850 --> 00:39:14.510
to just eliminate every, every
other kind of as many other kinds

00:39:14.515 --> 00:39:16.700
of distracting things as possible.

00:39:16.700 --> 00:39:22.030
So I, I've, I've read about, for instance
vocabulary development in autism.

00:39:22.030 --> 00:39:26.320
And it's fascinating because, you know, in
a typically developing brain, mom can take

00:39:26.320 --> 00:39:28.810
a pen and go point to it and say, pen.

00:39:29.020 --> 00:39:33.040
And there are all these, you're
listening to mom's face, voice the point.

00:39:33.040 --> 00:39:37.000
There are all these social
cues that point you to this.

00:39:37.120 --> 00:39:41.110
The attention on this object
and, and a typically developing

00:39:41.110 --> 00:39:43.120
kid with autism is like.

00:39:44.005 --> 00:39:47.515
Listening to the finger, the butt,
the way the socks feel, and the shoes,

00:39:47.515 --> 00:39:53.125
like you might learn any amount of this
sensory information might be capturing.

00:39:53.605 --> 00:39:53.815
Right.

00:39:53.815 --> 00:39:54.415
Your attention.

00:39:54.895 --> 00:39:57.205
Rupert Isaacson: You know, it, it,
it's really interesting when I was

00:39:57.205 --> 00:40:00.935
first having to get involved in this
'cause I had to 'cause of my son.

00:40:01.475 --> 00:40:02.345
There was,

00:40:05.675 --> 00:40:12.515
and there still is a belief
among some people that say

00:40:15.845 --> 00:40:19.140
a wall with art on it or something
like that would be too distracting.

00:40:19.680 --> 00:40:19.681
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:40:19.680 --> 00:40:19.900
Mm.

00:40:20.555 --> 00:40:24.665
Rupert Isaacson: And then, and so
people would be working in these

00:40:24.665 --> 00:40:26.555
really very sterile environments.

00:40:26.585 --> 00:40:26.675
Mm-hmm.

00:40:27.095 --> 00:40:30.455
White walls, frankly depressing.

00:40:30.455 --> 00:40:31.145
Aesthetically.

00:40:31.160 --> 00:40:31.161
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:40:31.160 --> 00:40:31.450
Yeah.

00:40:31.865 --> 00:40:32.105
Yeah.

00:40:32.185 --> 00:40:34.405
Rupert Isaacson: But I found of
course, going out into nature.

00:40:34.960 --> 00:40:35.350
With my

00:40:35.350 --> 00:40:35.351
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:40:35.350 --> 00:40:35.650
kid.

00:40:35.655 --> 00:40:35.735
Mm-hmm.

00:40:36.075 --> 00:40:37.095
Rupert Isaacson: Opened everything up.

00:40:37.395 --> 00:40:37.396
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:40:37.395 --> 00:40:37.615
Yes.

00:40:37.615 --> 00:40:38.015
And that makes,

00:40:38.315 --> 00:40:43.150
Rupert Isaacson: and there were multiple
distractions, but those distractions

00:40:43.750 --> 00:40:45.790
seemed to work for us, not against us.

00:40:45.820 --> 00:40:45.970
Mm-hmm.

00:40:46.240 --> 00:40:47.950
So my question with that is,

00:40:48.040 --> 00:40:48.041
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:40:48.040 --> 00:40:49.960
oh, this is a good, this
gives me a good idea.

00:40:49.990 --> 00:40:50.260
Okay.

00:40:50.710 --> 00:40:51.130
Keep going.

00:40:51.700 --> 00:40:52.090
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:40:52.090 --> 00:40:57.150
Is, is this is this because a,
those distractions didn't have a

00:40:57.150 --> 00:40:59.610
bad sensory effect because mm-hmm.

00:40:59.670 --> 00:41:02.280
They're the distractions that
our organism is set up for.

00:41:03.000 --> 00:41:03.150
Mm-hmm.

00:41:03.150 --> 00:41:03.152
I mm-hmm.

00:41:03.157 --> 00:41:05.550
You know, the wind, the, the
light, the trees or whatever.

00:41:05.670 --> 00:41:06.060
Mm-hmm.

00:41:06.690 --> 00:41:08.475
So therefore they're
not really distractions.

00:41:08.475 --> 00:41:08.520
Mm-hmm.

00:41:08.970 --> 00:41:10.200
They're just sort of our habitat.

00:41:10.950 --> 00:41:11.040
Mm-hmm.

00:41:11.350 --> 00:41:14.890
And then do our brains that
automatically respond better to those.

00:41:15.590 --> 00:41:18.380
And then the other thing was, of
course, it was all in, in movement.

00:41:18.380 --> 00:41:20.450
And that brings me back to mm-hmm.

00:41:21.530 --> 00:41:25.100
What you were saying earlier about
with factories and, and schools.

00:41:25.430 --> 00:41:26.690
The brain didn't evolve.

00:41:28.835 --> 00:41:31.895
To learn and problem solve
that way sitting still.

00:41:31.895 --> 00:41:34.475
So I wanted, so I made a
little note to myself, say, ask

00:41:34.475 --> 00:41:35.885
about movement and the brain.

00:41:36.305 --> 00:41:37.565
So nature movement.

00:41:37.595 --> 00:41:38.105
Okay.

00:41:38.765 --> 00:41:42.695
And then what I would do, of
course was look for what seemed

00:41:42.695 --> 00:41:44.495
to motivate him from the, that's

00:41:44.495 --> 00:41:44.496
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:41:44.495 --> 00:41:46.265
exactly what I wrote, I wrote,

00:41:46.355 --> 00:41:49.865
Rupert Isaacson: and then
just go in that direction.

00:41:50.135 --> 00:41:50.795
That's exactly right.

00:41:50.795 --> 00:41:52.210
And the reason I did it though, mm-hmm.

00:41:52.475 --> 00:41:54.845
Was not because I was intelligent.

00:41:54.935 --> 00:42:00.875
The only reason I did it was because
I'm not intelligent and because I know

00:42:00.875 --> 00:42:02.735
that I'm not intelligent in that way.

00:42:03.245 --> 00:42:07.085
I went for mentorship from Temple
Grandin who told me to do that mm-hmm.

00:42:07.835 --> 00:42:08.945
As an autistic person.

00:42:08.945 --> 00:42:09.035
Mm-hmm.

00:42:09.155 --> 00:42:13.655
So I, as a journalist went, well, she's
autistic and she's successful, so she

00:42:13.655 --> 00:42:14.735
must know what she's talking about.

00:42:14.855 --> 00:42:18.695
So therefore I will do what she says
because that just seems rational.

00:42:19.135 --> 00:42:20.485
And I did and it worked.

00:42:20.845 --> 00:42:21.715
Mm-hmm.

00:42:21.766 --> 00:42:25.426
But I, yeah, I definitely found
that following what other, what

00:42:25.426 --> 00:42:29.356
sometimes behavioral therapists
would've called distractions, I

00:42:29.356 --> 00:42:30.796
found were not distractions at all.

00:42:30.796 --> 00:42:30.886
Mm-hmm.

00:42:31.156 --> 00:42:32.296
They were motivators.

00:42:32.716 --> 00:42:32.717
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:42:32.716 --> 00:42:33.376
That's right.

00:42:33.381 --> 00:42:33.641
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:42:33.641 --> 00:42:33.882
That's right.

00:42:33.887 --> 00:42:36.526
So, so what's going on
with there, with the brain?

00:42:36.526 --> 00:42:36.646
And

00:42:37.821 --> 00:42:37.822
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:42:37.821 --> 00:42:42.316
so there's some, my gosh, like there
is a person here at UW called, his

00:42:42.316 --> 00:42:46.996
name is Gregory Bratman, and there's a
team that are studying nature wellness

00:42:46.996 --> 00:42:52.476
interactions and in so many different
ways sort of nature and mental health.

00:42:52.476 --> 00:42:54.696
And like the first thing that I
thought about when you were talking

00:42:54.696 --> 00:43:00.796
about walls with no art and versus
nature is this idea of soft.

00:43:01.246 --> 00:43:04.906
One of the things that seems to be
true is that when we are in nature,

00:43:04.906 --> 00:43:07.816
we are inherently softer in our focus.

00:43:07.816 --> 00:43:09.916
We are more like the horses, right?

00:43:09.916 --> 00:43:10.006
Mm-hmm.

00:43:10.246 --> 00:43:15.856
Like we have this wide picture, and
I do think that that's very settling.

00:43:15.886 --> 00:43:17.056
It's restorative.

00:43:17.251 --> 00:43:20.011
Mm, for the nervous system, right?

00:43:20.011 --> 00:43:22.921
Because we also have something
called like attentional fatigue.

00:43:22.921 --> 00:43:26.761
And I think, you know, as you were
talking about the white walls and, and

00:43:26.761 --> 00:43:32.101
things like this, I thought, okay, what
is, how do you get from distracting

00:43:32.101 --> 00:43:37.381
to like stressful amount of pressure
in one area, which will then fatigue

00:43:37.621 --> 00:43:40.051
your brain and your nervous system?

00:43:40.231 --> 00:43:44.801
And I think this kind of soft
focus which you also get, we know

00:43:44.801 --> 00:43:46.421
this is true from moving, right?

00:43:46.421 --> 00:43:52.241
You, the rhythm, rhythm of walking
relaxes the nervous system and it opens

00:43:52.241 --> 00:43:57.401
up creativity and opens up like the
ability to think and reason and learn.

00:43:59.276 --> 00:44:02.276
So that's the first thing is that
this is, is that the, the way we

00:44:02.276 --> 00:44:05.396
focus in nature, we need to be aware,
we need to be alert, we need to know

00:44:05.396 --> 00:44:08.306
where we're putting our feet, which
is kind of cool and interesting.

00:44:08.956 --> 00:44:12.796
But the, we're not necessarily
hyper-focused on something

00:44:12.796 --> 00:44:14.446
that will fatigue the brain.

00:44:14.446 --> 00:44:19.606
We have a, a, a kind of broader
awareness, which seems to be from

00:44:19.606 --> 00:44:21.736
a mental health point, restorative.

00:44:21.736 --> 00:44:23.866
And you're right, that's,
that's how we are meant.

00:44:24.641 --> 00:44:27.646
We, we are animals.

00:44:27.646 --> 00:44:30.946
And that is how we are meant to exist.

00:44:30.946 --> 00:44:37.466
It is, and I think it's in this space of
normal value what's good and what's bad.

00:44:37.466 --> 00:44:43.016
I, I worry so much about how removed
we are from how, how many things

00:44:43.016 --> 00:44:48.176
that we think are bad about our
brains that are just absolutely the

00:44:48.176 --> 00:44:51.296
way that we are designed to exist.

00:44:51.296 --> 00:44:52.676
Our brains have not.

00:44:53.066 --> 00:44:56.216
Evolved nearly as fast as our society.

00:44:56.216 --> 00:44:59.096
The pressures that our
society has put on them have

00:44:59.101 --> 00:44:59.341
Rupert Isaacson: what?

00:44:59.486 --> 00:45:03.236
What do we think is bad about our brains
that, that we could be wrong about?

00:45:03.236 --> 00:45:03.536
I think

00:45:03.536 --> 00:45:03.537
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:45:03.536 --> 00:45:05.186
a attention is the biggest thing.

00:45:05.186 --> 00:45:08.776
Like, you know, my students like, and I
think that this is a great, I also wanna

00:45:08.776 --> 00:45:13.096
talk about your, your question about do we
think we've diversity is accepted or not?

00:45:13.216 --> 00:45:14.326
I think it depends.

00:45:14.776 --> 00:45:16.036
Attention is a huge thing.

00:45:16.036 --> 00:45:19.906
Like many, many people, like you're,
you are saying I'm not intelligent, but

00:45:19.906 --> 00:45:23.206
I think that's because you have a very
specific idea of intelligence that's like

00:45:23.206 --> 00:45:28.426
sitting in front of books like I am right
now and digesting things and, you know,

00:45:28.426 --> 00:45:33.586
and remembering them when they have like,
no tangible purpose in your real life.

00:45:33.586 --> 00:45:37.366
Or like, you know, how, how well did you
absorb numbers on the chalkboard when

00:45:37.366 --> 00:45:39.166
someone gave it to you without a context?

00:45:39.646 --> 00:45:44.026
And, and when it comes to, I just think
that there's a very straightforward way

00:45:44.026 --> 00:45:45.586
that your brain defines intelligence.

00:45:45.586 --> 00:45:48.616
Your brain defines intelligence
as learning the things that will

00:45:48.616 --> 00:45:51.286
move you through the world and
help you find good things, period.

00:45:51.886 --> 00:45:52.306
Right.

00:45:52.366 --> 00:45:57.886
And so having the ability to like
undergo six hours of class a day

00:45:57.886 --> 00:46:02.086
for 25 years of your life before you
finally get a job where you make money

00:46:02.086 --> 00:46:06.226
and can then buy the good things is
like not, that's not very natural.

00:46:06.256 --> 00:46:08.866
That's a lot of delayed gratification.

00:46:08.866 --> 00:46:09.346
Right.

00:46:09.916 --> 00:46:14.776
So, I'm completely, I'm, I
am, I'm thinking about nature.

00:46:14.776 --> 00:46:15.586
What, what did you ask me?

00:46:15.586 --> 00:46:16.421
What's it, the brain, well, well,

00:46:16.426 --> 00:46:17.716
Rupert Isaacson: that you
talked about attention.

00:46:17.956 --> 00:46:18.586
So, yeah.

00:46:18.586 --> 00:46:19.096
Attention.

00:46:19.096 --> 00:46:19.097
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:46:19.096 --> 00:46:23.266
So a lot of people feel they hate, like
I I, at the beginning of this class, I

00:46:23.266 --> 00:46:25.186
would hear my students saying, I hate.

00:46:27.271 --> 00:46:27.363
A DHD.

00:46:27.721 --> 00:46:30.811
Do you know how many of my, like in
my students, I'm at the University of

00:46:30.811 --> 00:46:35.641
Washington, it's widely considered one of
the 10 bus public schools in the world.

00:46:35.671 --> 00:46:35.761
Mm-hmm.

00:46:36.001 --> 00:46:39.301
I think that could be changing,
but and so these students are at

00:46:39.301 --> 00:46:43.381
the top of what society would call
high functioning intellectual.

00:46:43.381 --> 00:46:48.581
And I probably have about 25% of
the students in my class, this

00:46:48.581 --> 00:46:53.171
upper division, like neuroscience
class with diagnoses of A DHD.

00:46:53.651 --> 00:46:55.601
And I think there's
something in that, right?

00:46:55.601 --> 00:46:59.591
So either we can say, and, and if
you look at incidents of A DHD,

00:46:59.591 --> 00:47:01.121
it really depends on the country.

00:47:01.121 --> 00:47:02.951
It depends on the time period.

00:47:03.521 --> 00:47:07.091
It, it could be something
that's increasing because of,

00:47:07.151 --> 00:47:09.791
you know, digital stimulation.

00:47:09.791 --> 00:47:14.921
It could be something that's di being more
widely diagnosed because of awareness.

00:47:15.071 --> 00:47:18.611
But the fact is that one in four.

00:47:18.986 --> 00:47:24.656
Students have this diagnosis means
that it's not rare, it's not atypical,

00:47:24.661 --> 00:47:26.311
and it also means it can't be bad

00:47:26.311 --> 00:47:26.591
Rupert Isaacson: of a thing.

00:47:26.591 --> 00:47:26.791
Right.

00:47:26.791 --> 00:47:28.831
Otherwise it can't that, that
bad of a thing getting into

00:47:29.041 --> 00:47:30.236
University of Washington.

00:47:30.956 --> 00:47:30.957
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:47:30.956 --> 00:47:31.856
Exactly.

00:47:31.916 --> 00:47:32.636
Exactly.

00:47:32.936 --> 00:47:36.226
And in some ways but, but, but the
students will say, I hate that.

00:47:36.226 --> 00:47:39.436
And then I say, okay, well
let's talk about the opposite.

00:47:39.616 --> 00:47:40.276
Do they say why

00:47:40.276 --> 00:47:41.206
Rupert Isaacson: they hate it, by the way?

00:47:41.776 --> 00:47:41.777
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:47:41.776 --> 00:47:46.396
I think they hate, well, they, they
will say like, I don't know why I

00:47:46.396 --> 00:47:50.026
can't be motivated to sit and do
something for a long period of time.

00:47:50.026 --> 00:47:50.056
Okay.

00:47:50.086 --> 00:47:54.126
Or how, or or that I then get hyper.

00:47:54.126 --> 00:47:57.336
You know, they're aware that they
also get hyper-focused and like

00:47:57.696 --> 00:48:00.816
down a rabbit hole for something
that they say like wasn't important.

00:48:01.386 --> 00:48:04.356
And so one of the things that we've
learned in my class is like, when

00:48:04.356 --> 00:48:07.566
you are, you know, what widely.

00:48:07.971 --> 00:48:13.011
In both this kind of economical world and
in the classroom, what's widely considered

00:48:13.011 --> 00:48:17.541
valuable or good is the ability to pay
attention according to some goal, right?

00:48:17.541 --> 00:48:21.291
Like I am, I'm telling you, pay
attention to what I'm saying.

00:48:21.291 --> 00:48:25.401
'cause we're on a podcast right now
and that means whatever, or you know,

00:48:25.401 --> 00:48:28.581
I'm telling you, pay attention to your
homework or I'm telling you, pay attention

00:48:28.581 --> 00:48:31.371
to dropping your heels or whatever, right?

00:48:31.641 --> 00:48:33.351
And the ability to, but like.

00:48:34.116 --> 00:48:38.706
When people are paying, paying attention
first, it's expensive for everyone.

00:48:38.706 --> 00:48:40.506
That's why it's called
freaking paying attention.

00:48:40.536 --> 00:48:41.796
It uses the frontal globes.

00:48:42.036 --> 00:48:45.156
When you're paying attention, what
you're actually doing is you are

00:48:45.156 --> 00:48:49.026
overriding everything you've learned
from trial and error experience.

00:48:49.266 --> 00:48:49.686
Oh, that's interesting.

00:48:49.686 --> 00:48:49.716
Okay.

00:48:49.786 --> 00:48:51.826
So like everything you've
learned about how to stay alive,

00:48:51.826 --> 00:48:53.116
how to find the good things.

00:48:53.116 --> 00:48:53.206
Mm-hmm.

00:48:53.266 --> 00:48:58.156
You can override that to now focus
on a specific piece of the world

00:48:58.156 --> 00:48:59.566
and ignore the other pieces of the

00:48:59.566 --> 00:49:00.106
Rupert Isaacson: world.

00:49:00.106 --> 00:49:00.107
Mm-hmm.

00:49:00.401 --> 00:49:02.021
For a specific outcome.

00:49:02.071 --> 00:49:02.421
Right.

00:49:02.561 --> 00:49:02.781
For

00:49:02.781 --> 00:49:02.782
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:49:02.781 --> 00:49:03.621
a specific outcome.

00:49:04.201 --> 00:49:08.536
It, it costs a lot from an energetic
perspective and you are literally

00:49:08.536 --> 00:49:11.716
distorting the world as it is,
and you are less likely to see

00:49:11.716 --> 00:49:13.486
something that you're not expecting.

00:49:15.346 --> 00:49:15.556
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:49:15.586 --> 00:49:15.587
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:49:15.586 --> 00:49:18.676
So, you know, if you don't have someone
with a DHD in your, a hunter gatherer

00:49:18.676 --> 00:49:23.986
group and you happen upon a cave with
eyeballs popping out of it, you're dead.

00:49:24.706 --> 00:49:24.946
Yeah.

00:49:25.126 --> 00:49:28.126
You're over here counting blueberries
like you're supposed to and see how

00:49:28.126 --> 00:49:30.286
many are in the basket or whatever, and.

00:49:30.931 --> 00:49:33.511
You're not even seeing
the eyeballs in that cave.

00:49:33.991 --> 00:49:35.491
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, no, absolutely.

00:49:35.491 --> 00:49:38.251
And that, that's always been my
thought about a DHD is that, you

00:49:38.251 --> 00:49:42.511
know, having, having lived with hunter
gatherers you can see how the human

00:49:42.511 --> 00:49:50.551
brain has to be able to operate in
effectively multiple parallel universes.

00:49:51.061 --> 00:49:51.301
Correct.

00:49:51.541 --> 00:49:53.406
And at the same time hyperfocus.

00:49:54.066 --> 00:49:54.486
Mm-hmm.

00:49:54.571 --> 00:49:58.021
And at the same time allow
itself to be distracted.

00:49:59.281 --> 00:49:59.282
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:49:59.281 --> 00:50:01.621
And isn't it convenient if you
have different people who are

00:50:01.621 --> 00:50:04.711
good at those things and can
communicate with one another?

00:50:04.711 --> 00:50:05.191
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:50:05.191 --> 00:50:05.491
Right.

00:50:05.491 --> 00:50:09.001
So you can defer to, you are better
at the blueberries than I am.

00:50:09.001 --> 00:50:11.461
So when it comes to blueberries,
I'm deferring to Chantal.

00:50:12.121 --> 00:50:17.281
So then maybe I can give Chantal the
chance to go down the blueberry rabbit

00:50:17.281 --> 00:50:18.811
hole because we'll benefit from that.

00:50:18.991 --> 00:50:21.361
And I'll watch out for bears.

00:50:21.946 --> 00:50:25.186
While she's doing that because she
knows more about blueberries than I do.

00:50:25.526 --> 00:50:28.256
When it comes time to do the thing
that I'm good at, she'll do the

00:50:28.256 --> 00:50:29.366
same, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:50:29.756 --> 00:50:33.001
But, and then, you know, the, the
need to change on a dime and pivot.

00:50:33.501 --> 00:50:33.921
Mm-hmm.

00:50:34.001 --> 00:50:39.056
So if you're hunting conditions change
like that, the wind changes or the animal

00:50:39.116 --> 00:50:40.761
hunts you back, or you realize mm-hmm.

00:50:40.886 --> 00:50:43.796
Another animal was hunting you while
you're hunting or whatever it is.

00:50:44.126 --> 00:50:50.096
And so if you can't then pivot very,
very fast, well you can't get food.

00:50:50.366 --> 00:50:54.311
So, you, one I've often wondered
when people talked about A DHD,

00:50:54.311 --> 00:50:57.666
like, is, does a DHD, why is
there a deal on the end of it?

00:50:58.881 --> 00:51:00.341
Why is it a disorder and a deficit?

00:51:00.341 --> 00:51:00.701
Mm-hmm.

00:51:00.781 --> 00:51:03.636
So it's only a disorder and a
deficit, presumably if it no

00:51:03.636 --> 00:51:05.286
longer fits the economic model.

00:51:05.796 --> 00:51:06.486
So That's right.

00:51:06.491 --> 00:51:06.541
Yeah.

00:51:06.546 --> 00:51:06.816
And in

00:51:06.816 --> 00:51:06.817
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:51:06.816 --> 00:51:10.266
fact, the diagnostic criteria, I talk
about this from time to time because

00:51:10.266 --> 00:51:14.106
I study attention and attentional
differences in the lab, and there are

00:51:14.106 --> 00:51:18.126
a number of tests you can do about
distractibility focus goal, you know,

00:51:18.306 --> 00:51:21.786
orienting all the, you can break it
into a million different boring tasks.

00:51:22.086 --> 00:51:23.196
There's no criteria.

00:51:23.196 --> 00:51:25.716
There's no, if you get
this score, you have a DHD.

00:51:25.716 --> 00:51:27.396
It is not, that's not
how you get diagnosed.

00:51:27.396 --> 00:51:28.326
You get diagnosed

00:51:28.326 --> 00:51:28.566
Rupert Isaacson: objective.

00:51:29.046 --> 00:51:29.047
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:51:29.046 --> 00:51:29.766
It's if you, yeah.

00:51:29.766 --> 00:51:33.636
Is this, is this impairing your
ability at home work or whatever.

00:51:33.636 --> 00:51:33.876
Right.

00:51:33.876 --> 00:51:34.956
In context.

00:51:35.346 --> 00:51:35.526
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:51:35.526 --> 00:51:35.527
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:51:35.526 --> 00:51:36.996
So that's about functionality.

00:51:36.996 --> 00:51:38.436
It's not about typicality.

00:51:38.736 --> 00:51:39.156
Rupert Isaacson: Well, right.

00:51:39.156 --> 00:51:41.946
And then that depends on what's
being valued at home, presumably.

00:51:41.951 --> 00:51:42.221
Correct.

00:51:42.361 --> 00:51:47.696
So if, if the home culture is
that, I as an 8-year-old boy should

00:51:48.476 --> 00:51:48.477
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:51:48.476 --> 00:51:49.346
sit, still

00:51:49.376 --> 00:51:52.016
Rupert Isaacson: behave
like a Philadelphia lawyer.

00:51:52.976 --> 00:51:53.306
Yes.

00:51:53.546 --> 00:51:54.026
You know.

00:51:55.181 --> 00:51:59.201
There might be a small percentage
of boys that can do that at eight.

00:51:59.831 --> 00:51:59.832
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:51:59.831 --> 00:51:59.921
Mm-hmm.

00:52:00.671 --> 00:52:02.351
Rupert Isaacson: But if
you're not one of them,

00:52:03.886 --> 00:52:03.887
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:52:03.886 --> 00:52:06.416
then you start to feel like there's
something wrong with a dysfunction.

00:52:06.526 --> 00:52:06.816
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:52:06.821 --> 00:52:09.431
Then it means that we've
gotten very narrow in

00:52:09.551 --> 00:52:09.552
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:52:09.551 --> 00:52:09.941
mm-hmm.

00:52:10.811 --> 00:52:13.871
Rupert Isaacson: What we perceive as
an economically viable thing, right?

00:52:13.901 --> 00:52:14.351
Yes.

00:52:14.501 --> 00:52:14.502
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:52:14.501 --> 00:52:14.831
Yeah.

00:52:15.071 --> 00:52:15.701
Rupert Isaacson: Instead of, yeah.

00:52:15.701 --> 00:52:19.091
So diversity, you talk about diversity
and one and one, one thinks about

00:52:19.091 --> 00:52:22.361
it as diversity of people, diversity
of brain types, but there's also

00:52:22.361 --> 00:52:23.801
diversity of economics, right?

00:52:23.801 --> 00:52:24.371
Surely Yes.

00:52:24.371 --> 00:52:28.602
You know, we need multiple skill
sets, people with multiple correct.

00:52:28.661 --> 00:52:29.111
Skill sets.

00:52:29.621 --> 00:52:29.951
Yeah.

00:52:29.951 --> 00:52:29.952
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:52:29.951 --> 00:52:34.181
And, and, and Temple Grandin
is big about she is so, you

00:52:34.181 --> 00:52:36.101
know, tuned into that as well.

00:52:36.101 --> 00:52:40.541
And like, we're under training for really
important skill sets when we had dinner.

00:52:41.291 --> 00:52:45.801
Two weeks ago she said that her new
passion is going around looking at

00:52:45.801 --> 00:52:48.441
all the certificates everywhere in
the world that have not been checked,

00:52:48.441 --> 00:52:49.791
like the elevator certificates.

00:52:50.271 --> 00:52:50.601
Yes, she does.

00:52:52.456 --> 00:52:54.771
And I was like, I don't like
elevators to start with.

00:52:54.771 --> 00:52:56.421
You're not helping me at all.

00:52:56.421 --> 00:52:58.221
She's like, they're everywhere like you.

00:52:58.221 --> 00:52:58.401
She came, she

00:52:58.401 --> 00:53:00.861
Rupert Isaacson: came and spoke at the
conference that we did in September, and

00:53:00.861 --> 00:53:03.891
she, the first thing out of her mouth when
she got on the floor, she says, I just

00:53:03.891 --> 00:53:08.701
checked the elevator coming up here and
it's out of date by, and we're like, okay.

00:53:08.761 --> 00:53:09.571
All using the stairs.

00:53:11.161 --> 00:53:11.162
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:53:11.161 --> 00:53:11.221
Yeah.

00:53:11.221 --> 00:53:11.222
Yeah.

00:53:11.491 --> 00:53:12.061
Comforting.

00:53:12.061 --> 00:53:12.781
Comforting.

00:53:12.781 --> 00:53:14.851
But hey, awareness is, is key

00:53:14.941 --> 00:53:15.601
Rupert Isaacson: indeed.

00:53:15.811 --> 00:53:20.371
What part of the brain, just quickly
about attention, what part or parts

00:53:20.461 --> 00:53:22.261
of the brain govern attention?

00:53:22.951 --> 00:53:23.521
Hmm.

00:53:24.121 --> 00:53:24.122
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:53:24.121 --> 00:53:29.451
So I would say the attention is a, an
interaction between the frontal lo?

00:53:29.481 --> 00:53:30.831
Well, it depends on the kind, right?

00:53:30.831 --> 00:53:34.401
So there's natural, or I
call it organic attention.

00:53:34.401 --> 00:53:35.601
Some people call it distractible.

00:53:35.601 --> 00:53:39.621
But I love it because squirrel
is, you know, that's the kind

00:53:39.621 --> 00:53:41.061
of prototypical distractibility.

00:53:41.061 --> 00:53:43.491
But hey man, squirrel
is an organic attention.

00:53:43.491 --> 00:53:43.672
That's thing.

00:53:43.677 --> 00:53:44.226
Well, squirrel is

00:53:44.226 --> 00:53:44.666
Rupert Isaacson: also edible.

00:53:45.056 --> 00:53:45.057
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:53:45.056 --> 00:53:46.346
Yeah, right.

00:53:46.346 --> 00:53:47.666
I mean, why wouldn't, I mean, you
know, that's why wouldn't I look at

00:53:47.716 --> 00:53:48.066
Rupert Isaacson: sport?

00:53:48.071 --> 00:53:50.331
I might be able to eat it in
a hunter gatherer context.

00:53:50.661 --> 00:53:50.662
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:53:50.661 --> 00:53:50.811
Yeah.

00:53:51.291 --> 00:53:52.971
Or you might be able to
make friends with it here.

00:53:52.971 --> 00:53:54.531
Theyre, or maybe it's
going quite aggressive.

00:53:54.621 --> 00:53:58.131
Steelers of lunches might
be your competition.

00:53:58.601 --> 00:53:58.871
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:53:59.761 --> 00:53:59.762
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:53:59.761 --> 00:54:00.721
So there's two things.

00:54:00.721 --> 00:54:03.511
One is that you have a frontal
lobe that holds the goal in

00:54:03.511 --> 00:54:05.311
mind if you're paying attention.

00:54:05.431 --> 00:54:09.301
And two is that you have these basal
ganglia, which are my favorite parts

00:54:09.301 --> 00:54:14.251
of the brain, which are the the
dopamine rich reward centers that

00:54:14.251 --> 00:54:17.791
learn based on previous experiences,
where to find the good things.

00:54:17.791 --> 00:54:22.471
Now, the basal gang, my husband has a,
a, a really cool computational model

00:54:22.471 --> 00:54:26.221
about this called conditional signal
routing, which by the way, we found was

00:54:27.001 --> 00:54:28.771
working quite differently in autism.

00:54:29.101 --> 00:54:34.741
And the idea is that when you have a
goal, the frontal lobe can help change

00:54:34.741 --> 00:54:38.071
the rules for what good looks like, right?

00:54:38.371 --> 00:54:44.701
So like if you know, you know, ice cream
is good and so, and you feel hungry

00:54:44.761 --> 00:54:48.931
and there's ice cream, you're like,
this is a high probability reward.

00:54:49.141 --> 00:54:49.981
But if you're like.

00:54:51.391 --> 00:54:56.761
Energized enough to hold in mind that
you wanna live to be 100 and that

00:54:56.761 --> 00:54:58.681
you haven't eaten any vegetables.

00:54:59.191 --> 00:55:02.971
The frontal lobe can tell the basal
ganglia, Hey, like right now, actually

00:55:02.971 --> 00:55:07.501
fiber, things that grew from the
planet are good in a, like, in a

00:55:07.501 --> 00:55:09.001
way that aligns with these goals.

00:55:09.001 --> 00:55:11.101
And you can, and you can
make a different decision.

00:55:11.131 --> 00:55:14.941
Rupert Isaacson: So it's, so is your
basal ganglia, your impulse and your

00:55:15.461 --> 00:55:18.671
prefrontal cortex, what you're talking
about there, that that could override that

00:55:18.671 --> 00:55:20.906
impulse for kinda to change what's good?

00:55:21.286 --> 00:55:21.287
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:55:21.286 --> 00:55:21.706
Mm-hmm.

00:55:21.936 --> 00:55:22.306
Kind of.

00:55:22.361 --> 00:55:25.451
I think that basal ganglia are
a lot smarter than just impulse.

00:55:25.451 --> 00:55:29.101
I think they're at any, given the
frontal lobe gets all of this, I think

00:55:29.101 --> 00:55:32.251
of the frontal lobe, like the CEO that
gets all of this credit for making

00:55:32.251 --> 00:55:35.731
decisions, but the basal ganglia are
already filtering behind the scenes

00:55:35.731 --> 00:55:39.511
based on your previous experiences to say
this information is pretty particularly

00:55:39.511 --> 00:55:41.221
important for making your decision.

00:55:41.221 --> 00:55:42.241
Rupert Isaacson: Where are they located?

00:55:42.241 --> 00:55:43.171
The basal ganglia right

00:55:43.171 --> 00:55:43.172
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:55:43.171 --> 00:55:44.281
in the middle of the brain.

00:55:44.551 --> 00:55:45.571
Rupert Isaacson: Why
are they called ganglia?

00:55:45.571 --> 00:55:45.661
Right.

00:55:46.621 --> 00:55:46.622
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:55:46.621 --> 00:55:47.191
I don't know.

00:55:47.281 --> 00:55:48.556
I think that means multiple.

00:55:48.556 --> 00:55:49.276
They, yes.

00:55:49.396 --> 00:55:50.756
I think I would imagine them like,

00:55:51.506 --> 00:55:52.796
Rupert Isaacson: like octopus alien,

00:55:53.641 --> 00:55:53.642
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:55:53.641 --> 00:55:55.711
we had a, we had Halloween costume

00:55:55.711 --> 00:55:56.161
Rupert Isaacson: type.

00:55:56.551 --> 00:55:56.851
Yeah.

00:55:56.856 --> 00:55:57.836
With Dangly

00:55:58.986 --> 00:55:58.987
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:55:58.986 --> 00:55:59.676
Dang things.

00:56:00.271 --> 00:56:00.421
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:56:01.501 --> 00:56:01.502
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:56:01.501 --> 00:56:03.211
We had a Halloween costume collective.

00:56:03.211 --> 00:56:04.531
We were called the Basil Gang.

00:56:06.931 --> 00:56:09.751
I think it means multiple ganglion.

00:56:09.751 --> 00:56:12.291
I think it's a thing, but
I don't honestly know.

00:56:12.691 --> 00:56:17.251
And then there's this, so it seems
also within this frontal and then

00:56:17.251 --> 00:56:21.231
in inner basal ganglia system,
there's also a left and right.

00:56:21.621 --> 00:56:23.451
Ideas, and I think this
is super interesting.

00:56:23.481 --> 00:56:28.341
The left seems to be more goal focused
and predicting the future, whereas

00:56:28.341 --> 00:56:33.561
the right seems to be more focused on
the now and noticing abnormalities or

00:56:33.561 --> 00:56:35.511
things that move and so forth and so on.

00:56:35.511 --> 00:56:40.311
So, for instance, there's a, a
disorder called the visual neglect

00:56:40.311 --> 00:56:42.141
or hemis hemifield neglect.

00:56:42.141 --> 00:56:47.911
If you get damage in the in the right
hemisphere, the left hemisphere can still

00:56:47.911 --> 00:56:49.681
kind of like figure out what's going on.

00:56:49.681 --> 00:56:52.471
But if you miss the noticing
hemisphere, you might just like

00:56:52.471 --> 00:56:55.741
ignore an entire half of your body.

00:56:55.831 --> 00:56:59.071
So there's this different kinds of
awareness in the two hemispheres,

00:56:59.071 --> 00:57:00.091
which is quite interesting.

00:57:00.301 --> 00:57:05.011
And if you have people bisect a line, so
we did this in my class, just give a, give

00:57:05.011 --> 00:57:10.756
people a bunch of lines and have 'em draw
a a line where you think the middle is.

00:57:11.461 --> 00:57:14.971
You can get and, and then measure
how close you are to center.

00:57:15.031 --> 00:57:19.111
You can get some idea of whether you
have this more or you know, if your

00:57:19.231 --> 00:57:24.091
right hemisphere, if your right, if
the line is to the left of center,

00:57:24.451 --> 00:57:27.991
it means that your left hemisphere
is driving your noticing more.

00:57:27.991 --> 00:57:31.021
And if the line is to the right,
you can, you can say that you

00:57:31.021 --> 00:57:33.271
have like a more organic brain.

00:57:33.871 --> 00:57:38.671
So a DHD people are more, are
more driven by the right side.

00:57:38.686 --> 00:57:38.976
Okay.

00:57:39.391 --> 00:57:39.961
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:57:39.961 --> 00:57:43.261
And we live in a bit of a left
brain society, so therefore Yeah.

00:57:43.261 --> 00:57:45.481
Therefore they've, it's
a disorder suddenly.

00:57:45.721 --> 00:57:45.722
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:57:45.721 --> 00:57:46.081
Right.

00:57:46.171 --> 00:57:46.591
Whereas, but it,

00:57:47.251 --> 00:57:50.251
Rupert Isaacson: in another culture
it would be a, a a, an asset.

00:57:50.821 --> 00:57:50.822
Dr. Chantel Prat:

00:57:50.821 --> 00:57:51.241
Right.

00:57:51.241 --> 00:57:51.751
Exactly.

00:57:51.751 --> 00:57:55.831
And I think that that applies to a lot
of different skill sets and a lot of

00:57:55.831 --> 00:57:59.401
different ways of being that we're,
you know, sort of under appreciating.

00:57:59.851 --> 00:58:03.121
And you know, going back
to your question about I.

00:58:04.276 --> 00:58:07.666
The first question, which I feel like I
never fully answered about, are we, where

00:58:07.666 --> 00:58:09.826
are we at in the acceptance of diversity?

00:58:10.876 --> 00:58:16.576
I love that neurodiversity is searched
for four times more frequently on

00:58:16.576 --> 00:58:18.586
Google now than five years ago.

00:58:18.636 --> 00:58:22.596
I, I think that there is a general
awareness that probably one in

00:58:22.596 --> 00:58:27.816
five people have some kind of,
what, what will be diagnosable

00:58:27.816 --> 00:58:30.636
as atypical brain organization.

00:58:30.636 --> 00:58:34.446
And I love, you know, these stickers
that say neuros spicy and this kind

00:58:34.446 --> 00:58:40.136
of acknowledgement that I think that
there is a general increase of awareness

00:58:40.136 --> 00:58:43.556
and a general increase in people
claiming that they're neurodiverse,

00:58:43.556 --> 00:58:44.936
you know, like making it public.

00:58:44.936 --> 00:58:46.586
Having the neuro spicy sticker.

00:58:47.051 --> 00:58:51.251
And understanding that this is not
a personality deficit, this is just

00:58:51.251 --> 00:58:57.021
the way my brain works, is kind of a
claiming, stepping into that recognition.

00:58:57.651 --> 00:59:01.731
However, I think there's work to do,
number one, I think that, that, that

00:59:01.731 --> 00:59:05.571
understanding that this is not like
a personal weakness or a deficit,

00:59:05.841 --> 00:59:07.581
this is just the way my brain works.

00:59:08.211 --> 00:59:11.961
I think that there's room for that in the
typically developing population as well.

00:59:11.961 --> 00:59:14.691
I think, like I said with my
students, people who hate, don't

00:59:14.691 --> 00:59:17.391
understand why they're distractible,
don't understand why they're not

00:59:17.391 --> 00:59:21.531
motivated to do boring things, don't
understand why they forget forgetting.

00:59:21.531 --> 00:59:23.631
This is important for
learning as remembering.

00:59:23.631 --> 00:59:26.571
Like I just think there are a lot
of things about our brain designs

00:59:26.571 --> 00:59:31.921
that we really, that we perceive
as character flaws because of

00:59:31.921 --> 00:59:37.201
this kind of societal value of a
particular thing that's very abnormal.

00:59:37.891 --> 00:59:41.191
And I think there are certain.

00:59:42.781 --> 00:59:47.671
Labels that are more popular than others,
like a DHD is so metal and rock and roll

00:59:47.671 --> 00:59:51.781
and yeah, I'm neuros spicy, but like
when I talk to people who are on, who

00:59:51.781 --> 00:59:56.041
have autism spectrum disorder, many of
them don't wanna be the person on that

00:59:56.041 --> 01:00:00.361
panel or don't want their employers
to know about it and are worried about

01:00:00.361 --> 01:00:04.861
being stigmatized and are worried, you
know, so like, it, it's, I don't think

01:00:04.861 --> 01:00:09.421
we're there yet when there's like a
cool disorder and a not cool disorder.

01:00:09.421 --> 01:00:14.181
And, and again, I think that nor
I just think the work comes to

01:00:14.331 --> 01:00:16.491
it with normalizing differences.

01:00:17.271 --> 01:00:19.671
We're all different and people with.

01:00:20.286 --> 01:00:24.816
Asper or an autism spectrum disorder
label are just as different from

01:00:24.816 --> 01:00:26.466
one another as people without it.

01:00:26.496 --> 01:00:29.856
Like, you know, so assuming that
that per that label lets, you know,

01:00:29.856 --> 01:00:34.236
oh, I'm gonna, I don't know, like
people make very weird assumptions.

01:00:34.236 --> 01:00:36.816
And when they want me to talk about
neurodiversity in the workplace, they

01:00:36.816 --> 01:00:40.746
want me to say something like, eye
contact is aggressive or like that.

01:00:40.746 --> 01:00:42.156
It doesn't, it's not true for everybody.

01:00:42.156 --> 01:00:44.706
Or like, not everybody thinks
in pictures, not everybody.

01:00:44.706 --> 01:00:49.776
This, you know, there's, there's diversity
within and, and between these labels.

01:00:50.316 --> 01:00:55.686
So I think normalizing differences
and rethinking about deficits as of

01:00:55.686 --> 01:00:58.416
just a mismatch between the thing
that we're asking our brain to

01:00:58.416 --> 01:00:59.976
do and what our brain is good at.

01:00:59.976 --> 01:01:06.486
And to your point, strength
building, working with the nature

01:01:06.486 --> 01:01:08.826
of our brains, working with the
things that we're passionate about.

01:01:08.856 --> 01:01:10.686
'cause literally no one.

01:01:10.776 --> 01:01:15.156
It gets lit up by doing
boring things no one does.

01:01:15.156 --> 01:01:16.806
And that takes us back to curiosity.

01:01:16.836 --> 01:01:19.266
Do you know that when
your brain feels curious?

01:01:19.926 --> 01:01:21.066
It is.

01:01:21.156 --> 01:01:23.196
First of all, it requires safety.

01:01:23.916 --> 01:01:26.226
You cannot feel curious
when you're not safe.

01:01:26.976 --> 01:01:31.476
And when your brain feels curious,
it emits dopamine in anticipation

01:01:31.476 --> 01:01:32.856
of an information rewarding.

01:01:32.886 --> 01:01:35.946
The same interesting basal
ganglia that looks for food.

01:01:36.906 --> 01:01:40.116
Treats the human brain treats
information as a reward when it's

01:01:40.116 --> 01:01:41.616
something you're curious about.

01:01:42.126 --> 01:01:48.096
And when that dopamine comes online, it's
dopamine is something that is not actually

01:01:48.096 --> 01:01:50.466
for reward, it's for motivating learning.

01:01:51.036 --> 01:01:57.036
So it motivates you to work and it re,
your brain gets rewired more quickly.

01:01:57.516 --> 01:02:00.846
So I guess like when you started
talking about your son and then you

01:02:00.846 --> 01:02:03.126
said you worked with what motivates him?

01:02:03.156 --> 01:02:07.146
My second answer to that person
who's got a kid on a pony is

01:02:07.146 --> 01:02:09.366
learn about that kid's what?

01:02:09.366 --> 01:02:12.666
Lights them up and put it into that.

01:02:12.696 --> 01:02:17.736
We, there's, so there's a study that
was actually done in, I think it was

01:02:17.736 --> 01:02:21.466
Nigeria that's so brilliant and so easy.

01:02:21.466 --> 01:02:24.886
They were teaching kids math and
they gave them, and this was like

01:02:24.886 --> 01:02:29.026
secondary school math, and they gave
them a 10 minute interest survey.

01:02:29.836 --> 01:02:31.246
Where do you like to shop?

01:02:31.396 --> 01:02:32.236
What do you buy?

01:02:32.236 --> 01:02:33.076
Who are your friends?

01:02:33.076 --> 01:02:34.066
What's your name?

01:02:34.126 --> 01:02:38.656
And then they did this math
instruction where they personalize

01:02:38.716 --> 01:02:44.896
the problems or, so yeah, Rupert
went to the store to buy whiskey.

01:02:44.896 --> 01:02:45.136
IPA.

01:02:45.826 --> 01:02:46.696
Yeah, there you go.

01:02:46.696 --> 01:02:50.826
An IPA and and you know, and
then you do the math in that.

01:02:50.826 --> 01:02:56.246
And of course you, and I know this because
we're parents the kids who had a a, the

01:02:56.246 --> 01:02:57.926
math wasn't taught differently at all.

01:02:57.926 --> 01:03:01.226
It was just taught in a context that
the kid cared about, which meant that

01:03:01.226 --> 01:03:04.376
you get curiosity kind of by periphery.

01:03:05.556 --> 01:03:05.557
Sure.

01:03:05.976 --> 01:03:07.086
And they learned more.

01:03:07.086 --> 01:03:10.796
And so this is like, in my writer's group,
I had a friend tell me, you're like one of

01:03:10.796 --> 01:03:13.496
those moms who puts vegetables in dessert.

01:03:13.496 --> 01:03:15.866
'cause I'm curious about the
brain and I don't wanna be.

01:03:15.866 --> 01:03:16.496
I'm like, yes.

01:03:16.496 --> 01:03:17.786
That's the secret sauce.

01:03:18.506 --> 01:03:19.496
Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting.

01:03:19.546 --> 01:03:23.206
We have a whole thing within horse boy
method of movement method of, of before.

01:03:24.106 --> 01:03:27.676
We see someone trying to, as you
say, get as much info as we can.

01:03:28.156 --> 01:03:28.246
Mm-hmm.

01:03:28.252 --> 01:03:30.766
And we want to know all the
motivators we want to know Yeah.

01:03:31.096 --> 01:03:34.156
If they're into Pokemon, well,
what aspect of Pokemon, you know?

01:03:34.186 --> 01:03:34.611
Yeah, yeah.

01:03:34.636 --> 01:03:35.506
Who are the characters?

01:03:35.506 --> 01:03:38.356
What are the, you know, and we'll,
we'll tailor it all around that.

01:03:38.416 --> 01:03:38.506
Yes.

01:03:38.506 --> 01:03:38.626
Yeah.

01:03:39.016 --> 01:03:40.366
But also what, what do they hate?

01:03:40.936 --> 01:03:41.116
Yeah.

01:03:41.386 --> 01:03:43.771
And we find that that's as
important too, so, oh yeah.

01:03:43.876 --> 01:03:45.076
That's sensory, right?

01:03:45.076 --> 01:03:45.691
So mm-hmm.

01:03:45.771 --> 01:03:49.606
They hate this sense, so we're gonna great
these things, we can, that's back, perhaps

01:03:49.606 --> 01:03:51.166
back to your point about distraction.

01:03:51.196 --> 01:03:51.286
Mm-hmm.

01:03:51.406 --> 01:03:55.216
We can then try to eliminate as
much as possible those smells, those

01:03:55.216 --> 01:03:59.806
noises, those characters, those types
of things from the environment that

01:03:59.806 --> 01:04:01.727
we are gonna work in, so that mm-hmm.

01:04:01.911 --> 01:04:04.936
And if we then maximize the things
that are the motivators, well then

01:04:04.936 --> 01:04:07.396
presumably we've got a better chance.

01:04:07.606 --> 01:04:12.436
But one thing I, I often see with
in the therapy world, sadly, is

01:04:12.886 --> 01:04:15.946
a lack of curiosity and mm-hmm.

01:04:16.006 --> 01:04:20.476
I think within the horse world, this
can be particularly endemic, sadly.

01:04:20.546 --> 01:04:20.846
Mm-hmm.

01:04:21.266 --> 01:04:24.746
That we horsey people are quite
bossy and quite opinionated.

01:04:24.776 --> 01:04:24.866
Mm-hmm.

01:04:25.406 --> 01:04:26.516
And we don't like change.

01:04:26.911 --> 01:04:27.331
Mm-hmm.

01:04:27.391 --> 01:04:31.211
So we hate admitting that maybe
we need to rethink something or,

01:04:32.051 --> 01:04:34.811
you know, we'll usually dial on
nail of how we've always done it.

01:04:35.351 --> 01:04:35.441
Mm-hmm.

01:04:35.831 --> 01:04:40.751
And obviously that's not massively helpful
when we are dealing with our horses.

01:04:40.751 --> 01:04:41.921
It tends to make us stuck.

01:04:42.191 --> 01:04:46.151
But of course, if we're then trying
to take a therapeutic approach, that

01:04:46.151 --> 01:04:50.321
lack of curiosity is going to shoot
us in the foot fairly massively.

01:04:50.326 --> 01:04:50.406
Mm-hmm.

01:04:51.641 --> 01:04:51.731
Mm-hmm.

01:04:51.971 --> 01:04:58.151
Presumably that lack of curiosity
can't be really endemic because

01:04:58.151 --> 01:05:00.101
humans are curious apes.

01:05:00.336 --> 01:05:00.756
Mm-hmm.

01:05:00.841 --> 01:05:02.651
So here's a question.

01:05:02.651 --> 01:05:04.661
Do we have curiosity trained out of us?

01:05:05.321 --> 01:05:05.471
Mm-hmm.

01:05:05.471 --> 01:05:06.491
And can we retrain it?

01:05:06.816 --> 01:05:07.036
Yes.

01:05:07.151 --> 01:05:10.781
And what part of the brain do
we need to target for that?

01:05:10.781 --> 01:05:11.171
And how?

01:05:11.861 --> 01:05:11.862
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:05:11.861 --> 01:05:12.311
Mm.

01:05:13.091 --> 01:05:13.631
So.

01:05:14.111 --> 01:05:17.081
There are sort of state and
trait differences in curiosity.

01:05:17.081 --> 01:05:21.131
Some people are more curious
by nature than others and there

01:05:21.131 --> 01:05:23.681
are also different kinds of
curiosity or perceptual curiosity.

01:05:23.681 --> 01:05:25.421
People who wanna feel things.

01:05:25.601 --> 01:05:25.841
Mm-hmm.

01:05:26.481 --> 01:05:29.181
And epistemic curiosity,
which blows my mind.

01:05:29.181 --> 01:05:34.641
It's, it's strange as much as it's true of
me, that people wanna know things, wanna

01:05:34.641 --> 01:05:38.781
know that jellyfish could essentially be
eternal 'cause they can like go, you know,

01:05:38.781 --> 01:05:42.651
go back a stage developmentally, it's
like, how will that ever help me in life?

01:05:42.651 --> 01:05:44.541
But it's so fascinating, you know,

01:05:44.961 --> 01:05:46.191
Rupert Isaacson: because
it makes you optimistic.

01:05:46.581 --> 01:05:46.582
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:05:46.581 --> 01:05:46.881
Yeah.

01:05:46.881 --> 01:05:49.281
You're like, oh, somebody can do it makes
you, it generally, generally optimistic,

01:05:49.281 --> 01:05:51.531
Rupert Isaacson: which means you
assume better outcomes, which

01:05:51.531 --> 01:05:52.791
means you probably will get them

01:05:53.271 --> 01:05:53.272
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:05:53.271 --> 01:05:53.631
right.

01:05:53.631 --> 01:05:59.211
And so there in the jellyfish example
you have highlighted, where curiosity,

01:05:59.241 --> 01:06:02.901
like where does it come from and
can we, is it trained out of us?

01:06:02.991 --> 01:06:03.621
Absolutely.

01:06:03.621 --> 01:06:03.951
Yes.

01:06:03.951 --> 01:06:07.371
I think, and depending on the
discipline, sometimes it's very explicit.

01:06:07.371 --> 01:06:09.681
Like, don't ask questions, do what I say.

01:06:10.221 --> 01:06:12.621
And, but we, I think we know the recipe.

01:06:12.621 --> 01:06:15.171
I think there's a pretty
good recipe for curiosity.

01:06:15.171 --> 01:06:21.481
And and my favorite is a model
by Gruber and Ranana Char.

01:06:21.551 --> 01:06:24.971
Char and Ranana was one of my
professors in grad school, and

01:06:24.971 --> 01:06:26.291
it's called the PACE Model.

01:06:26.291 --> 01:06:27.791
So it's easy, PACE.

01:06:28.031 --> 01:06:29.831
So number one is predict.

01:06:30.161 --> 01:06:35.551
So, if you think you know the answer,
if you think you know what's right,

01:06:36.181 --> 01:06:37.831
you're not going to be curious.

01:06:38.191 --> 01:06:38.641
Right?

01:06:39.121 --> 01:06:42.751
It's, and that's like to that
point of we get stuck in mm-hmm.

01:06:42.752 --> 01:06:43.501
In habits.

01:06:43.561 --> 01:06:47.821
If something surprises us if something
doesn't go as planned or we find

01:06:47.821 --> 01:06:51.331
ourself in a new situation, that's
where we have the first opening.

01:06:52.066 --> 01:06:55.426
That's where I think, like for me,
like humility about what I don't

01:06:55.426 --> 01:06:58.066
know, keeps me like always curious.

01:06:58.826 --> 01:07:01.856
So, so prediction, failure
is the first trigger.

01:07:01.856 --> 01:07:03.806
It needs to be something you
don't know everything about.

01:07:03.806 --> 01:07:06.116
But also if it's something you
know nothing about, you're probably

01:07:06.116 --> 01:07:09.866
also not curious 'cause you're
trying to make connections.

01:07:09.866 --> 01:07:13.076
You know, you wanna integrate everything,
everything into your knowledge of

01:07:13.076 --> 01:07:14.516
the world and your place in it.

01:07:15.491 --> 01:07:20.731
Then the, the important part, I think
is the assessment number two, am I safe?

01:07:21.121 --> 01:07:26.401
You know, and if you're a hunter gatherer
and you find something unexpected, if

01:07:26.401 --> 01:07:30.091
you make a wrong turn on Google and
you find yourself in the wrong place,

01:07:30.421 --> 01:07:35.131
if you're in a situation and your
conversation is not going as planned,

01:07:35.431 --> 01:07:37.621
the question is, am I physically safe?

01:07:37.621 --> 01:07:38.881
Am I psychologically safe?

01:07:38.881 --> 01:07:40.801
And I think this is something
that corporations haven't been

01:07:40.801 --> 01:07:43.981
spending enough time with when
it's like, best answer, right?

01:07:43.981 --> 01:07:48.361
This, you know, it's like in order to make
people feel curious, it's not like, be

01:07:48.361 --> 01:07:50.431
curious and be the best or you're fired.

01:07:50.431 --> 01:07:54.031
Like, that just doesn't, you know,
that kind of like environment

01:07:54.031 --> 01:07:55.321
does not promote curiosity.

01:07:55.321 --> 01:07:59.971
So in the training out of curiosity,
it's like how do we treat answers that

01:07:59.971 --> 01:08:01.711
are different than what we wanted?

01:08:02.566 --> 01:08:04.306
Are we like, no, that's not right.

01:08:04.306 --> 01:08:07.426
Are we focusing on deficits or are
we like, oh, tell me what, you know,

01:08:07.426 --> 01:08:08.686
what made you think about that?

01:08:08.686 --> 01:08:09.766
Like, where did that come from?

01:08:09.766 --> 01:08:12.436
What do you know that
led you to that answer?

01:08:12.976 --> 01:08:17.176
So psychological and physical
safety are precursors.

01:08:17.536 --> 01:08:19.576
You need to ha be in a place
that you can't predict.

01:08:19.576 --> 01:08:20.146
You need to think.

01:08:20.146 --> 01:08:21.316
You don't know the answer.

01:08:21.796 --> 01:08:23.296
You need to feel safe.

01:08:24.106 --> 01:08:29.276
And then once, once your brain has
sort of, gone through those two

01:08:29.276 --> 01:08:31.436
steps, you experience curiosity.

01:08:31.436 --> 01:08:35.396
And the point of curiosity
is to motivate exploration.

01:08:35.396 --> 01:08:36.086
That's the E.

01:08:36.116 --> 01:08:38.516
So curiosity, explore.

01:08:38.966 --> 01:08:43.206
And what's beautiful about this is
you know, I would say these first

01:08:43.206 --> 01:08:48.156
two predict and assess are what, what
my trainer, Gabby Nora, who I love,

01:08:48.156 --> 01:08:51.996
calls getting your horse or yourself
into the learning frame of mind.

01:08:51.996 --> 01:08:52.056
I.

01:08:53.001 --> 01:08:56.901
You know, they've got, and I think
it's true of your, of your kids, your

01:08:56.901 --> 01:09:01.251
students, you want to do the work
first before you do anything to get

01:09:01.251 --> 01:09:02.721
them into the learning frame of mind.

01:09:02.721 --> 01:09:05.271
They've gotta feel safe,
they've gotta feel engaged,

01:09:05.451 --> 01:09:06.501
Rupert Isaacson: gotta build relationship.

01:09:06.501 --> 01:09:07.911
The environment's gotta be right.

01:09:07.941 --> 01:09:08.181
Yeah.

01:09:08.301 --> 01:09:08.481
Yeah.

01:09:08.541 --> 01:09:08.542
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:09:08.541 --> 01:09:08.841
Yep.

01:09:08.931 --> 01:09:09.141
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:09:09.266 --> 01:09:09.267
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:09:09.266 --> 01:09:13.851
And then you have this curious
learner who will learn, who

01:09:13.851 --> 01:09:17.961
will the rewire more period.

01:09:17.961 --> 01:09:21.231
Like if I gave you 10 questions,
I asked you trivia questions

01:09:21.231 --> 01:09:24.051
and I asked you, which are you
the most interested in learning?

01:09:24.201 --> 01:09:26.151
And then I gave you the
answers to the all 10.

01:09:26.271 --> 01:09:29.541
You will learn, you'll remember the
ones that you were most curious to

01:09:29.541 --> 01:09:34.281
learn better because your basal ganglia
has said, this is interesting to me.

01:09:34.311 --> 01:09:38.331
This is an information reward
and it's predicting a reward.

01:09:38.331 --> 01:09:43.281
It's motivating you then like, one of my
favorite studies actually had people risk

01:09:43.341 --> 01:09:45.801
electrical shock to learn a magic trick.

01:09:46.911 --> 01:09:47.331
Rupert Isaacson: Wow.

01:09:47.336 --> 01:09:48.326
Because there is, I would do that.

01:09:48.771 --> 01:09:48.772
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:09:48.771 --> 01:09:49.701
Yeah, exactly.

01:09:49.701 --> 01:09:52.551
So would I, and there is this
aspect of curiosity where it is

01:09:52.551 --> 01:09:54.201
potentially dangerous, right?

01:09:54.201 --> 01:09:58.041
When, when you're in the unknown, and
especially with perceptual curiosity and

01:09:58.041 --> 01:09:59.841
trying drugs and things like this, right?

01:09:59.841 --> 01:10:03.441
It's like there's often
a risk reward benefit.

01:10:03.441 --> 01:10:06.111
And when we're curious,
we're super motivated to find

01:10:06.111 --> 01:10:07.311
information and we'll do work.

01:10:07.316 --> 01:10:07.916
Well, we also know

01:10:07.916 --> 01:10:09.531
Rupert Isaacson: that,
that we can't avoid risk.

01:10:09.531 --> 01:10:13.641
So we need to, like, if you hunt
and gather, it's risky, right?

01:10:13.641 --> 01:10:14.301
So right.

01:10:14.571 --> 01:10:16.101
Being on planet earth is risky.

01:10:16.311 --> 01:10:18.141
So we need to dance with risk.

01:10:18.141 --> 01:10:18.471
We need,

01:10:18.741 --> 01:10:18.742
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:10:18.741 --> 01:10:19.071
right?

01:10:19.281 --> 01:10:19.581
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:10:20.151 --> 01:10:20.152
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:10:20.151 --> 01:10:20.391
Right.

01:10:20.391 --> 01:10:24.361
And so that, that curiosity in
this, in this in this study, the

01:10:24.361 --> 01:10:27.451
more curious they were to learn the
magic trick, the more likely they

01:10:27.451 --> 01:10:29.191
were to take a risk to get a shock.

01:10:29.191 --> 01:10:31.171
Like, okay, it's a 20% risk.

01:10:31.171 --> 01:10:32.641
Okay, it's a 40% risk.

01:10:32.641 --> 01:10:33.841
Like when do you say.

01:10:34.246 --> 01:10:37.426
How, no, I don't really care
about the magic trick that much.

01:10:37.636 --> 01:10:37.786
Right?

01:10:37.786 --> 01:10:41.716
But what was inter, but that basal
ganglia, that filtering part of the

01:10:41.716 --> 01:10:44.566
brain that's sending information
to the frontal lobe that I said

01:10:44.566 --> 01:10:46.006
is smarter than just impulse.

01:10:46.186 --> 01:10:46.546
Rupert Isaacson: Right?

01:10:46.726 --> 01:10:46.727
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:10:46.726 --> 01:10:52.516
When people took a risk for a electric
shock, the basal ganglia turned down the

01:10:52.516 --> 01:10:56.206
volume on the part of your brain that
might simulate what the shock feels like.

01:10:56.926 --> 01:10:59.506
It turned down connectivity to the hand.

01:10:59.686 --> 01:11:01.036
Rupert Isaacson: The basal
ganglia has that power.

01:11:02.146 --> 01:11:02.147
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:11:02.146 --> 01:11:02.476
Yes.

01:11:02.476 --> 01:11:06.046
It has inputs from everywhere in the
brain and then it sends repetitive

01:11:06.046 --> 01:11:07.066
things to the frontal lobe.

01:11:07.066 --> 01:11:10.516
It turns up or turns down the world.

01:11:10.816 --> 01:11:12.046
That's the kind of filtering.

01:11:12.046 --> 01:11:12.316
Interesting.

01:11:12.736 --> 01:11:17.236
So, so when it's like, no, we really wanna
know this, like I think that this magic

01:11:17.236 --> 01:11:20.176
trick is really important and we're not
gonna think about what the shop would

01:11:20.176 --> 01:11:21.976
feel like when you make this decision.

01:11:22.846 --> 01:11:23.236
So.

01:11:23.821 --> 01:11:26.641
You know, it's, I mean,
it's a major motivator.

01:11:26.641 --> 01:11:30.571
So in your learners, I think and,
and of course like, you know, back to

01:11:30.571 --> 01:11:35.481
our idea about what's gone wrong in
schools and what goes wrong in horse

01:11:35.481 --> 01:11:37.041
training, I think all the time too.

01:11:37.041 --> 01:11:43.011
It's like, if you make this thing
feel incompetent, wrong, threatened,

01:11:43.371 --> 01:11:47.491
if you, you know, if a, if a, if one
of those eight year olds who doesn't

01:11:47.491 --> 01:11:51.851
wanna sit still and be like, behave
like a lawyer already thinks there's

01:11:51.851 --> 01:11:56.921
something wrong with them, they already
feel threat in these environments,

01:11:57.191 --> 01:11:57.281
Rupert Isaacson: right?

01:11:57.311 --> 01:11:57.461
We

01:11:57.461 --> 01:11:57.462
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:11:57.461 --> 01:12:01.121
have, we've, we've already shut down
the curiosity that makes learning not

01:12:01.121 --> 01:12:06.521
only fun, you know, I think to your
specialty, I think something that

01:12:06.941 --> 01:12:09.641
is like completely overlooked is.

01:12:10.991 --> 01:12:13.121
We're meant to learn to
find the good things.

01:12:13.121 --> 01:12:17.141
And like learning has taken on this
serious, you know, whether it's learning

01:12:17.141 --> 01:12:22.211
to ride horses or learning to do math,
it's taken on this serious reputation,

01:12:22.211 --> 01:12:25.691
which is in and of itself antithetical
to how we were designed to learn.

01:12:25.691 --> 01:12:26.921
We are designed to learn.

01:12:27.071 --> 01:12:28.511
Learning is supposed to be fun.

01:12:28.541 --> 01:12:31.481
We're supposed to like, the fact
that we feel excited about something

01:12:31.481 --> 01:12:34.721
is our brain's way of saying, we
think this is gonna be useful.

01:12:34.721 --> 01:12:37.391
We think this is gonna be interesting,
we think this is gonna be important.

01:12:37.871 --> 01:12:40.391
And so everything else created equally.

01:12:40.451 --> 01:12:44.651
Something you do to make learning
fun will also make it more effective.

01:12:46.691 --> 01:12:49.701
Rupert Isaacson: If you're a horse
nerd, and if you're on this podcast,

01:12:50.101 --> 01:12:55.001
I'm guessing you are, then you've
probably also always wondered a little

01:12:55.001 --> 01:12:57.251
bit about the old master system.

01:12:57.716 --> 01:12:59.026
of dressage training.

01:12:59.066 --> 01:13:07.636
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony
program, we outline there step by step

01:13:07.706 --> 01:13:13.986
exactly how to train your horse from
the ground to become the dressage horse

01:13:13.996 --> 01:13:20.516
of your dreams in a way that absolutely
serves the physical, mental and emotional

01:13:20.566 --> 01:13:23.336
well being of the horse and the rider.

01:13:23.396 --> 01:13:24.136
Intrigued?

01:13:24.336 --> 01:13:25.196
Like to know more?

01:13:26.066 --> 01:13:28.896
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.

01:13:30.596 --> 01:13:32.286
Check out the free introduction course.

01:13:32.846 --> 01:13:33.366
Take it from there.

01:13:33.870 --> 01:13:38.610
Talk to us about the relationship
of movement with this and

01:13:38.610 --> 01:13:40.860
Neurotrophins, BDNF and so on.

01:13:42.210 --> 01:13:42.211
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:13:42.210 --> 01:13:47.400
This is a little bit farther out of my
area of expertise, but I do know that

01:13:47.400 --> 01:13:50.040
we evolve to solve problems on the go.

01:13:50.655 --> 01:13:51.135
Right.

01:13:51.315 --> 01:13:55.935
So moving the body, again is something
that regulates the nervous system and puts

01:13:55.935 --> 01:14:02.385
us into a state of alertness that helps
us focus on what it is we're learning.

01:14:02.475 --> 01:14:10.935
The challenge then becomes presenting
information while walking or presenting

01:14:10.940 --> 01:14:13.695
information, and then going to
move through the world to cogniti.

01:14:13.785 --> 01:14:13.995
Well, what's

01:14:13.995 --> 01:14:16.265
Rupert Isaacson: interesting with
that is, is so for example, the

01:14:16.265 --> 01:14:18.905
two other languages that I sort
of speak are French and German.

01:14:19.445 --> 01:14:20.435
I learned them on horseback.

01:14:21.465 --> 01:14:23.805
So I'm balancing, I'm problem solving.

01:14:23.805 --> 01:14:24.045
That makes

01:14:24.045 --> 01:14:24.046
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:14:24.045 --> 01:14:24.346
perfect sense.

01:14:24.430 --> 01:14:24.650
Got

01:14:24.855 --> 01:14:24.975
Rupert Isaacson: the, yeah.

01:14:24.975 --> 01:14:27.855
The BDNF is going the, that brain
derive neurotrophic factor thing.

01:14:28.065 --> 01:14:29.925
But also I'm motivated to be there.

01:14:29.925 --> 01:14:31.065
Yes, I wanna be on the horse, right?

01:14:31.065 --> 01:14:34.575
And I'm motivated to learn this
vocabulary about horses because I'm

01:14:34.635 --> 01:14:36.345
just intrinsically interested in it.

01:14:36.465 --> 01:14:36.466
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:14:36.465 --> 01:14:36.915
Right?

01:14:36.975 --> 01:14:37.365
Rupert Isaacson: If I was,

01:14:37.455 --> 01:14:37.456
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:14:37.455 --> 01:14:37.815
that's right.

01:14:37.845 --> 01:14:37.995
If

01:14:37.995 --> 01:14:40.665
Rupert Isaacson: I was a cooking guy, I'd
wanna be moving around a kitchen, right?

01:14:40.670 --> 01:14:41.050
Mm-hmm.

01:14:41.210 --> 01:14:42.075
Learning the same thing.

01:14:42.705 --> 01:14:44.775
But it seems to me that movement.

01:14:45.075 --> 01:14:48.195
You, you, you've talked a lot
about the difficulties of sitting

01:14:48.195 --> 01:14:49.965
still in a DHD and mm-hmm.

01:14:50.205 --> 01:14:50.715
Want on the go.

01:14:51.075 --> 01:14:51.585
So

01:14:52.635 --> 01:14:52.636
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:14:52.635 --> 01:14:54.765
I think movement also changes.

01:14:55.005 --> 01:14:56.535
You know, you get fatigue.

01:14:56.595 --> 01:14:59.715
You, you know, if you have the
same exact perspective, if you're

01:14:59.715 --> 01:15:04.365
doing the same task, you're wearing
out the parts of your brain.

01:15:04.365 --> 01:15:06.525
You're using up neurotransmitters.

01:15:06.525 --> 01:15:07.485
That's, you know what I mean?

01:15:07.515 --> 01:15:11.385
So I think like movement
cognitively and movement physically

01:15:11.685 --> 01:15:12.675
changes your perspective.

01:15:12.675 --> 01:15:12.676
You're

01:15:12.681 --> 01:15:12.920
Rupert Isaacson: neurotransmitters.

01:15:12.925 --> 01:15:13.575
That's interesting.

01:15:13.665 --> 01:15:14.025
Okay.

01:15:14.535 --> 01:15:14.536
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:15:14.535 --> 01:15:16.065
It's kind of like a a, that's

01:15:16.065 --> 01:15:17.475
Rupert Isaacson: brain
fatigue effectively.

01:15:17.505 --> 01:15:17.506
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:15:17.505 --> 01:15:18.105
Correct?

01:15:18.165 --> 01:15:18.645
Yeah.

01:15:19.125 --> 01:15:19.425
Yeah.

01:15:22.095 --> 01:15:26.445
It's kind of like, I mean, we don't have
camera flashes so much anymore, but kind

01:15:26.445 --> 01:15:30.765
of like in the olden days you used to see
a camera flash and you have a blind spot.

01:15:30.885 --> 01:15:31.275
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:15:31.335 --> 01:15:31.336
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:15:31.335 --> 01:15:32.055
For a second.

01:15:32.055 --> 01:15:36.705
That's temporary, but you've
like run those those neurons out.

01:15:37.320 --> 01:15:38.670
Of neurotransmitters, temporary.

01:15:38.670 --> 01:15:41.910
It was like a really intense,
focused in one part of the

01:15:41.940 --> 01:15:44.100
brain or one part of the retina.

01:15:44.570 --> 01:15:45.710
And it can't work anymore.

01:15:45.710 --> 01:15:46.190
It's like, whew.

01:15:46.370 --> 01:15:49.550
It has to wait to rebuild
and, and get going.

01:15:49.550 --> 01:15:55.220
So, I mean, I think we have biological,
energetic needs in our brains, and

01:15:55.220 --> 01:16:01.970
whether we're sitting still or cognitively
focusing on one thing, I think we

01:16:01.970 --> 01:16:05.450
also fatigue those, those networks.

01:16:06.230 --> 01:16:07.100
Rupert Isaacson: Makes perfect sense.

01:16:07.310 --> 01:16:16.015
So one of the challenges of working
with children who have been diagnosed

01:16:17.005 --> 01:16:19.285
with one thing or another thing mm-hmm.

01:16:19.510 --> 01:16:25.465
Is I find twofold, one, and I wanna ask
you some questions around this because

01:16:25.465 --> 01:16:29.635
I think a lot of people listening
will be having these challenges too.

01:16:29.635 --> 01:16:30.175
Mm-hmm.

01:16:31.000 --> 01:16:31.870
First challenge.

01:16:31.920 --> 01:16:34.020
You have a kid that's been
told they need therapy.

01:16:34.890 --> 01:16:37.170
I have never yet met a
kid that wanted therapy.

01:16:37.830 --> 01:16:39.390
I've met lots of kids
that would like to play.

01:16:39.780 --> 01:16:39.870
Mm-hmm.

01:16:39.900 --> 01:16:42.600
I've met lots of kids that would
like to do interesting stuff.

01:16:42.900 --> 01:16:42.990
Mm-hmm.

01:16:43.080 --> 01:16:46.830
I've met lots of kids that would like to
have fun, but I've never had a kid walk

01:16:46.830 --> 01:16:50.760
up to me and say, you know, Rupert, what
I really would like today is some therapy.

01:16:50.760 --> 01:16:50.850
Mm-hmm.

01:16:51.930 --> 01:16:56.970
And so if I'm saying to a kid who's
a developing brain, day in, day

01:16:56.970 --> 01:17:00.060
out for a decade, you need therapy.

01:17:00.060 --> 01:17:02.070
Let's go to therapy, let's go
to the therapy session now.

01:17:02.340 --> 01:17:04.560
Oh, it's time for your
such and such therapy.

01:17:05.370 --> 01:17:08.580
It's not that the therapy's a bad, it's
just that it's sending a message to

01:17:08.580 --> 01:17:10.140
the kid that they need therapy at all.

01:17:11.280 --> 01:17:11.730
Mm-hmm.

01:17:11.731 --> 01:17:14.640
Which has to be not a confidence giver.

01:17:14.640 --> 01:17:14.730
Right.

01:17:15.180 --> 01:17:16.800
That's the first thing.

01:17:17.040 --> 01:17:22.020
The second thing, of course, is
that if attention where we began and

01:17:24.570 --> 01:17:26.910
the value placed on
sitting still to learn.

01:17:27.270 --> 01:17:29.550
Even though it may not be natural mm-hmm.

01:17:30.900 --> 01:17:35.580
Gets to a point where you then say
to the child, not only do you need

01:17:35.580 --> 01:17:41.340
therapy, but you need drugs, we're going
to alter your brain with these drugs.

01:17:42.240 --> 01:17:49.890
And then indeed, if you stop taking those
drugs, there will be a negative effect.

01:17:50.310 --> 01:17:52.290
'cause there'll be some
sort of withdrawal.

01:17:53.250 --> 01:17:53.340
Mm-hmm.

01:17:53.580 --> 01:18:00.780
And then the child's in front of
me, how much of this child authe,

01:18:00.840 --> 01:18:02.130
authentically am I dealing with?

01:18:02.130 --> 01:18:04.830
How much am I dealing with the medication?

01:18:05.610 --> 01:18:05.700
Mm-hmm.

01:18:06.990 --> 01:18:10.230
How much or how little is
that medication blocking the

01:18:10.290 --> 01:18:12.060
authentic experience of the world?

01:18:12.660 --> 01:18:15.000
The, of the brain's ability to process.

01:18:15.000 --> 01:18:15.090
Mm-hmm.

01:18:15.435 --> 01:18:16.155
Information.

01:18:16.155 --> 01:18:18.975
Some would say, well, it's the medication
that's allowing him to process.

01:18:18.975 --> 01:18:21.105
And others would say, no,
actually it's blocking.

01:18:21.405 --> 01:18:23.085
And the child's sort of an innocent in it.

01:18:23.085 --> 01:18:23.685
They're just sort of

01:18:23.895 --> 01:18:23.896
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:18:23.895 --> 01:18:23.985
mm-hmm.

01:18:24.405 --> 01:18:25.275
Rupert Isaacson: Trying to get through.

01:18:25.805 --> 01:18:31.445
And then you have perhaps that
child grows up and is medicated

01:18:31.445 --> 01:18:34.985
till the day they die and is never
experiencing the world without that.

01:18:35.825 --> 01:18:35.915
Mm-hmm.

01:18:36.275 --> 01:18:40.045
I'm not necessarily anti-medication in
terms of if you're in a crisis, I mean,

01:18:40.045 --> 01:18:41.665
shit, you need an antibiotic, right?

01:18:41.815 --> 01:18:41.905
Mm-hmm.

01:18:42.145 --> 01:18:49.145
But what I find alarming about
behavioral modification medications is

01:18:49.145 --> 01:18:51.220
that there's never an exit strategy.

01:18:51.545 --> 01:18:54.995
It's not like an antibiotic that
they say, take this for 10 days,

01:18:55.265 --> 01:18:59.255
and then when the symptoms go away,
you know, stop taking it or you'll

01:18:59.255 --> 01:19:00.935
wipe out your gut floor or whatever.

01:19:01.535 --> 01:19:03.905
They just say, no, stay on this
stuff for the rest of your life.

01:19:03.905 --> 01:19:08.225
Effectively, there is no, I, I've
never heard of anyone being given the

01:19:08.225 --> 01:19:09.665
exit strategy when they're put on.

01:19:10.670 --> 01:19:14.810
So that's the brain
and the nervous system.

01:19:14.840 --> 01:19:14.930
Mm-hmm.

01:19:15.175 --> 01:19:18.020
That's the thing that you are
working with in your field.

01:19:18.290 --> 01:19:18.291
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:19:18.290 --> 01:19:18.770
Mm-hmm.

01:19:19.010 --> 01:19:19.100
Mm-hmm.

01:19:22.970 --> 01:19:26.060
Rupert Isaacson: If we give
a, a kid that's having trouble

01:19:26.060 --> 01:19:27.980
sitting still a drug to sit still,

01:19:30.800 --> 01:19:34.640
what, what does that do
to the developing brain?

01:19:35.870 --> 01:19:36.590
Do we even know?

01:19:38.450 --> 01:19:38.451
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:19:38.450 --> 01:19:39.800
I would say some.

01:19:39.800 --> 01:19:42.170
We know something, but
probably not enough Uhhuh.

01:19:42.410 --> 01:19:47.830
And, you know, I have one thing
we know, I guess one thing we

01:19:47.830 --> 01:19:54.250
know for sure is that they, drugs
do not work well for everybody.

01:19:54.520 --> 01:19:54.940
Mm-hmm.

01:19:55.515 --> 01:19:57.345
And what does it mean to work well again?

01:19:57.345 --> 01:19:57.645
Right.

01:19:57.645 --> 01:20:01.005
This is, again, compared, I think that
there's a lot in what you're saying.

01:20:01.005 --> 01:20:07.185
One is like, how do we involve the
children in these decisions about.

01:20:07.630 --> 01:20:13.360
Interventions, whether they be therapeutic
or behavioral and, and like, does the, are

01:20:13.360 --> 01:20:16.930
the parents just overwhelmed and they need
the kid to function in the society that

01:20:16.930 --> 01:20:20.860
they've been born into and they're hoping
for the magic pill that suddenly makes

01:20:20.860 --> 01:20:23.680
the kid look like the neighbor's kid.

01:20:24.100 --> 01:20:24.430
Right.

01:20:24.430 --> 01:20:24.490
Yeah.

01:20:24.790 --> 01:20:26.380
Which I think almost never works.

01:20:26.770 --> 01:20:30.040
And what is the, how does
the kid feel about this?

01:20:30.040 --> 01:20:35.450
I think it's quite interesting because
in particular receiving a diagnosis

01:20:35.450 --> 01:20:42.080
and then the interventions that occur
accordingly from a like self sense of

01:20:42.080 --> 01:20:49.580
self perspective, it seems different when
it happens in childhood and adulthood.

01:20:49.640 --> 01:20:50.930
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely,
a hundred percent.

01:20:51.320 --> 01:20:54.170
And I've met plenty of adults that
want wanted therapy 'cause that seems

01:20:54.170 --> 01:20:55.760
to be an adult sort of decision.

01:20:55.970 --> 01:20:57.200
Adult self expression.

01:20:57.860 --> 01:20:57.861
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:20:57.860 --> 01:21:01.190
And adults that get diagnoses,
and they're not crushed by it.

01:21:01.190 --> 01:21:03.560
They don't feel other, they
feel relieved and they're like,

01:21:03.560 --> 01:21:05.300
oh my gosh, now I have a plan.

01:21:05.600 --> 01:21:05.690
Right.

01:21:05.720 --> 01:21:10.910
And I, you know, there's like a, a,
a, a way moving forward and I think,

01:21:10.910 --> 01:21:14.740
you know, for a lot of these drug
interventions, there are adaptations.

01:21:14.770 --> 01:21:18.910
Like your brain does always, whether,
you know, whether it's antidepressant

01:21:18.910 --> 01:21:25.560
or whether you're taking Ritalin or you
know, or you know, anti-anxiety meds.

01:21:25.560 --> 01:21:29.370
Like it's, you are intervening with
this neurochemistry and your brain

01:21:29.370 --> 01:21:32.430
will try to adapt accordingly.

01:21:32.430 --> 01:21:35.190
It will try and move
around that system mm-hmm.

01:21:35.430 --> 01:21:39.840
In ways that like create,
adapt adaptations and tolerance

01:21:39.840 --> 01:21:41.580
and and so forth and so on.

01:21:41.580 --> 01:21:47.220
So, you know, some kids do feel a lot
better on, they feel better, I think.

01:21:47.220 --> 01:21:50.940
Like, I guess I wanna know how you feel
and do you feel better and do you feel

01:21:50.940 --> 01:21:56.910
better able to meet the demands of your
day on these medications or do you not?

01:21:56.910 --> 01:22:00.900
And is that coming from the kid
or coming from somebody else's

01:22:00.900 --> 01:22:03.060
definition of what it means to be good?

01:22:03.060 --> 01:22:08.850
And are we sort of like, like is this
akin to like, we're modifying our, our

01:22:08.880 --> 01:22:13.771
children to fit into this like, cookie
cutter template of, of what normal means?

01:22:14.040 --> 01:22:18.420
So for me, I think understanding
how the kids feel, but also this

01:22:18.420 --> 01:22:23.040
identity around being labeled, you
know, to our point of other and

01:22:23.040 --> 01:22:26.340
being told that there's something
wrong and that you need to fix it.

01:22:26.340 --> 01:22:29.880
I think I would love to
see, kids involvement.

01:22:29.880 --> 01:22:32.430
And what, what is it that you
would like, what do you find easy?

01:22:32.430 --> 01:22:34.440
You said you asked the kid what
they like and what they hate.

01:22:34.440 --> 01:22:36.900
What is it that you find easy, right?

01:22:36.900 --> 01:22:38.370
What is it that you find hard?

01:22:38.370 --> 01:22:40.440
Is there anything you'd
like to get better at?

01:22:41.430 --> 01:22:43.410
Rupert Isaacson: Well, right, I mean,
that's the first question is usually

01:22:43.410 --> 01:22:44.700
is what do you feel like doing?

01:22:45.015 --> 01:22:45.305
Yeah.

01:22:45.310 --> 01:22:45.510
Yeah.

01:22:45.810 --> 01:22:47.670
And I've, I've got some
intel about what you like.

01:22:47.760 --> 01:22:50.370
I've sort of set a few things
up, but you might want that

01:22:50.370 --> 01:22:51.240
one, you might want that one.

01:22:51.240 --> 01:22:52.080
You might want that one.

01:22:52.080 --> 01:22:55.110
And it might be completely
different to what I think.

01:22:55.110 --> 01:22:58.110
So as much as possible, if you can
answer me, I'd, I'd love to know.

01:22:58.380 --> 01:23:01.020
But we never call, if someone
comes out to a horse boy place, for

01:23:01.020 --> 01:23:02.310
example, we never call it therapy.

01:23:02.460 --> 01:23:03.030
It's a play date.

01:23:03.600 --> 01:23:04.530
It's always a play date.

01:23:05.100 --> 01:23:05.665
You, you, that's cool.

01:23:05.665 --> 01:23:05.985
You're coming.

01:23:06.005 --> 01:23:06.425
And, and

01:23:06.425 --> 01:23:06.426
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:23:06.425 --> 01:23:07.560
I'm sure it actually is too.

01:23:08.160 --> 01:23:09.930
Rupert Isaacson: Well, it has
to be, otherwise it won't work.

01:23:09.930 --> 01:23:15.120
But it, it, I, it's just we realized
very early that to even use the word

01:23:15.120 --> 01:23:18.400
therapy was kind of depressing, you
know, for a lot of, a lot of the kids.

01:23:18.730 --> 01:23:20.290
But the.

01:23:20.665 --> 01:23:23.695
Doesn't mean what you do
can't be very therapeutic, but

01:23:23.695 --> 01:23:24.655
that's not the kids' problem.

01:23:24.655 --> 01:23:28.345
That's sort of up to us to sort of
deliver under the table if you like

01:23:28.345 --> 01:23:28.346
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:23:28.345 --> 01:23:28.405
it.

01:23:28.465 --> 01:23:31.945
It's funny that you said play date
because I had this aha moment for my

01:23:31.945 --> 01:23:36.205
own self and with my own horses and,
and I think this is relevant because

01:23:36.205 --> 01:23:40.825
in both of these cases, I think
you have to think about short-term

01:23:40.825 --> 01:23:42.385
learning and long-term learning.

01:23:42.385 --> 01:23:42.386
Yeah.

01:23:42.391 --> 01:23:44.785
And it's kind of like, I don't
wanna use the battle in the war.

01:23:44.785 --> 01:23:44.995
Right.

01:23:44.995 --> 01:23:50.395
But like, are you learning how to do X
but also learning that you are broken?

01:23:51.355 --> 01:23:51.685
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:23:53.455 --> 01:23:53.456
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:23:53.455 --> 01:24:00.505
And not good enough and you know
this, or are you learning how to

01:24:00.505 --> 01:24:01.825
work with the grain of your nature?

01:24:01.825 --> 01:24:03.295
Learning how to.

01:24:03.745 --> 01:24:07.735
You know, be successful with
the tools that you have.

01:24:07.765 --> 01:24:10.075
And, and how does that change
your, your sense of self?

01:24:10.075 --> 01:24:14.125
And I, you know, this is the thing
that, it's just so sad to think

01:24:14.125 --> 01:24:18.295
that like by kindergarten, kids
already have a sense of, do I fit in?

01:24:18.295 --> 01:24:19.255
Am I good in school?

01:24:19.255 --> 01:24:20.545
Does my teacher like me?

01:24:20.545 --> 01:24:27.355
And how much that scales up to what they,
you know, again, to curiosity versus

01:24:27.355 --> 01:24:33.205
threat to trying, like, nobody tr I
have yet to meet a person who is super

01:24:33.205 --> 01:24:36.385
excited to try something that they're
quite sure they're gonna be crap at.

01:24:37.885 --> 01:24:38.275
Right.

01:24:38.275 --> 01:24:39.115
So like, it just, yeah.

01:24:39.120 --> 01:24:39.170
Well,

01:24:39.170 --> 01:24:41.035
Rupert Isaacson: particularly
if you feel that you might be,

01:24:43.165 --> 01:24:45.505
there might be some adverse
reaction to being crap at it.

01:24:46.075 --> 01:24:46.165
Yeah.

01:24:46.165 --> 01:24:47.605
Like, it being crap is fun.

01:24:47.605 --> 01:24:49.015
It's like, I'm gonna try
and jump off this face.

01:24:49.015 --> 01:24:49.075
Yeah.

01:24:49.075 --> 01:24:49.380
That's fun.

01:24:49.615 --> 01:24:49.675
Yeah.

01:24:49.675 --> 01:24:51.535
I'm gonna land on my ass like a jackass.

01:24:51.535 --> 01:24:52.015
That's funny.

01:24:52.015 --> 01:24:52.915
And then laugh your ass off.

01:24:52.915 --> 01:24:52.916
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:24:52.915 --> 01:24:53.335
Yeah.

01:24:53.335 --> 01:24:53.395
Yeah.

01:24:53.635 --> 01:24:53.855
Rupert Isaacson: But,

01:24:53.955 --> 01:24:53.956
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:24:53.955 --> 01:24:57.195
so I had this when I was working
with my, my horses the other day.

01:24:57.195 --> 01:24:59.925
I had this just new idea of success.

01:24:59.955 --> 01:25:01.965
'cause I'm thinking about the long term.

01:25:01.965 --> 01:25:06.405
I'm not, for me, I don't really
care if I can, you know, ride a high

01:25:06.405 --> 01:25:08.595
school dressage test ever with them.

01:25:08.905 --> 01:25:11.755
But I am quite curious to see
what I can learn to do with them.

01:25:11.755 --> 01:25:16.735
And then I thought like, my idea
of success is that every training

01:25:16.735 --> 01:25:18.235
feels like a play date with mom.

01:25:18.565 --> 01:25:18.685
Right.

01:25:18.685 --> 01:25:22.705
Because I think that that
sets me up for the long term.

01:25:22.705 --> 01:25:25.675
Like, if, if the only thing my
horse learns is that learning

01:25:25.675 --> 01:25:27.085
is fun, then what can I not do?

01:25:27.655 --> 01:25:27.985
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:25:27.985 --> 01:25:28.645
Exactly.

01:25:29.215 --> 01:25:29.755
Exactly.

01:25:29.815 --> 01:25:35.005
And if I do find that it's stressful for
me or the horse, can I change it somehow?

01:25:35.575 --> 01:25:35.576
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:25:35.575 --> 01:25:35.815
Right.

01:25:36.085 --> 01:25:36.415
Rupert Isaacson: You know?

01:25:36.415 --> 01:25:38.335
And, and what are the
options for changing it?

01:25:38.875 --> 01:25:41.245
Can the person who's teaching me.

01:25:41.965 --> 01:25:42.895
Do it another way.

01:25:43.435 --> 01:25:43.436
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:25:43.435 --> 01:25:43.705
Right.

01:25:43.855 --> 01:25:45.415
Rupert Isaacson: If not,
do I need another teacher?

01:25:45.775 --> 01:25:46.045
Yeah.

01:25:46.135 --> 01:25:46.136
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:25:46.135 --> 01:25:46.495
Yeah.

01:25:46.795 --> 01:25:49.675
And I think that it's important in
this space to acknowledge that it's

01:25:49.675 --> 01:25:52.195
always a little bit stressful to
be doing something you don't know.

01:25:52.765 --> 01:25:53.845
Rupert Isaacson: Well, not, yeah.

01:25:53.845 --> 01:25:57.580
So is all stress it's a little bit
necessarily bad because No, exactly.

01:25:57.580 --> 01:25:58.420
Right, because Exactly.

01:25:59.785 --> 01:26:02.095
And, and there can be
fun involved in stress.

01:26:02.095 --> 01:26:05.815
I'm just thinking about myself if
I'm, I like to cross country jump,

01:26:06.085 --> 01:26:09.805
so if I'm heading in a cross country
jump, I'm always shitting myself.

01:26:10.285 --> 01:26:11.635
'cause I've had some bad wrecks.

01:26:11.635 --> 01:26:12.655
I know what can happen.

01:26:13.075 --> 01:26:14.415
And but I love it.

01:26:14.895 --> 01:26:20.055
So I've got my sympathetic nervous system
going, but it's also excited and kind

01:26:20.055 --> 01:26:22.125
of, maybe that's basal ganglia, Uhhuh

01:26:22.940 --> 01:26:22.941
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:26:22.940 --> 01:26:23.200
uhhuh.

01:26:23.415 --> 01:26:24.345
Rupert Isaacson: And it's
quite, 'cause you remember

01:26:24.345 --> 01:26:24.346
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:26:24.345 --> 01:26:26.955
all, all the times that you, you
made it more than you wrecked.

01:26:27.225 --> 01:26:28.065
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.

01:26:28.215 --> 01:26:31.275
And it's just such good crack, you know?

01:26:31.605 --> 01:26:31.695
Yeah.

01:26:31.775 --> 01:26:35.105
So all of those things come together where
there's a trade off between the fear.

01:26:35.810 --> 01:26:38.510
And the curiosity and
the excitement and so on.

01:26:38.720 --> 01:26:42.080
But if it were to go beyond a certain
point, like if you were to put me at

01:26:42.080 --> 01:26:46.760
a fence that I just know I'm not gonna
get over, you know, then well sure

01:26:46.820 --> 01:26:48.530
there'd, there'd be no enjoyment in it.

01:26:49.070 --> 01:26:53.450
Or if I felt that there'd be some
really adverse shaming or something.

01:26:53.900 --> 01:26:58.100
If, if I, if I didn't make it or if I
backed away from it, maybe that one,

01:26:58.520 --> 01:27:02.570
that would be more like my upbringing if
I said, oh, just not feeling it today.

01:27:02.720 --> 01:27:05.150
So I, I was pushed to go at fences.

01:27:06.170 --> 01:27:12.320
The culture was to be kind
of brave, but not wise.

01:27:12.830 --> 01:27:21.980
So I learned that, and my fear of
being censored as a coward overrode my

01:27:21.980 --> 01:27:26.420
knowledge that I probably would wreck
and I probably should back away the, the

01:27:26.420 --> 01:27:28.130
conditions were not right for whatever.

01:27:28.550 --> 01:27:31.010
And I was more afraid of the
judgment that would come.

01:27:31.340 --> 01:27:35.270
You know, so, but that comes back a little
bit to my mind, to the drugs thing because

01:27:35.270 --> 01:27:41.000
if it, if I'm seeing an overwhelming
number of kids who are on these drugs,

01:27:41.000 --> 01:27:42.620
it's not like, oh, it's just one or two.

01:27:42.920 --> 01:27:44.420
Because it's not just the kids
that come to me, it's like

01:27:44.420 --> 01:27:45.585
half their classmates or more.

01:27:45.585 --> 01:27:45.985
Mm-hmm.

01:27:46.070 --> 01:27:47.270
It's so many.

01:27:48.200 --> 01:27:53.000
And at that point, you're going,
do they just, every single kid

01:27:53.000 --> 01:27:55.040
that's on actually need, like what?

01:27:55.250 --> 01:28:01.520
Like so many, like this percentage
how do we survive as a culture

01:28:01.520 --> 01:28:02.630
at all before this then?

01:28:02.635 --> 01:28:02.815
Mm-hmm.

01:28:02.955 --> 01:28:07.700
If this is like such a problem that
we gotta have all these medications

01:28:07.700 --> 01:28:10.310
that, like how do we possibly
come up with internal combustion

01:28:10.310 --> 01:28:12.260
engine or anything, you know?

01:28:12.260 --> 01:28:12.440
Yeah.

01:28:12.530 --> 01:28:13.100
Or the wheel.

01:28:13.105 --> 01:28:13.255
Mm-hmm.

01:28:13.335 --> 01:28:13.655
But we did.

01:28:13.655 --> 01:28:13.656
Mm-hmm.

01:28:14.510 --> 01:28:17.630
And in, in other parts of the world
where they don't have those things or do

01:28:17.630 --> 01:28:19.340
those things, why are they not all just.

01:28:19.565 --> 01:28:21.690
You know, failing because
they're not right.

01:28:21.690 --> 01:28:21.970
Yeah.

01:28:22.190 --> 01:28:22.610
Mm-hmm.

01:28:22.695 --> 01:28:28.115
So we must be creating, therefore,
a society where things that are not

01:28:28.115 --> 01:28:29.735
disorders are perceived as disorders.

01:28:30.455 --> 01:28:30.605
Right.

01:28:30.610 --> 01:28:31.115
And, and

01:28:31.115 --> 01:28:31.116
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:28:31.115 --> 01:28:35.645
I also think also a, a society where
we're looking for easy fix and magic fix.

01:28:35.645 --> 01:28:38.885
And I think right, there's a com, you
know, whether you're selling someone

01:28:38.885 --> 01:28:45.215
eye cream or a pill for their kid
that, you know, at the root of this is

01:28:45.215 --> 01:28:47.105
a belief that you're not good enough,

01:28:48.485 --> 01:28:51.245
Rupert Isaacson: which comes
back to not safe, right?

01:28:51.995 --> 01:28:51.996
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:28:51.995 --> 01:28:53.045
Mm-hmm.

01:28:53.285 --> 01:28:53.375
Mm-hmm.

01:28:54.335 --> 01:28:58.235
Rupert Isaacson: So the subject
of drugs brings me to something

01:28:58.235 --> 01:28:59.465
else I'd like to ask you about.

01:28:59.465 --> 01:29:01.175
So, states have altered consciousness.

01:29:01.175 --> 01:29:01.265
Mm-hmm.

01:29:01.595 --> 01:29:06.875
So we know that altering the
consciousness is actually part

01:29:06.905 --> 01:29:10.395
of the human species thing.

01:29:10.395 --> 01:29:11.385
We've been doing it.

01:29:12.165 --> 01:29:12.825
A long time.

01:29:12.825 --> 01:29:22.695
It seems not just by taking mushrooms and
ayahuasca, but also in those places of the

01:29:22.695 --> 01:29:26.505
world where those things don't grow, where
there are no psychotropics, you know,

01:29:27.015 --> 01:29:30.645
repetitive dance to go into a trance, to
go into an alter state of consciousness.

01:29:30.645 --> 01:29:31.185
Mm-hmm.

01:29:31.191 --> 01:29:35.715
So presumably states of altered
consciousness actually can

01:29:35.715 --> 01:29:36.675
be very good for the brain.

01:29:37.215 --> 01:29:37.305
Mm-hmm.

01:29:37.545 --> 01:29:41.925
And presumably some forms of them can
be less good for the brain, but it seems

01:29:41.925 --> 01:29:44.475
that the brain actively seeks this out.

01:29:44.985 --> 01:29:45.075
Mm-hmm.

01:29:45.375 --> 01:29:48.045
And that it's, it functions as
part of our healing systems.

01:29:48.495 --> 01:29:48.615
Mm-hmm.

01:29:51.015 --> 01:29:54.705
Do you know much about what parts
of the brain are involved with that?

01:29:54.705 --> 01:29:58.545
With the seeking out of altered
states of consciousness and.

01:29:59.835 --> 01:30:03.045
What parts of the brain
seem to benefit and so on.

01:30:03.045 --> 01:30:03.375
Have you

01:30:03.945 --> 01:30:03.946
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:30:03.945 --> 01:30:04.485
Yeah.

01:30:04.485 --> 01:30:04.545
An

01:30:04.640 --> 01:30:04.720
Rupert Isaacson: idea.

01:30:04.720 --> 01:30:06.360
Can you talk an to us
a bit about that idea?

01:30:06.440 --> 01:30:06.441
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:30:06.440 --> 01:30:08.775
I have an idea and I'm
also looking at the clock.

01:30:08.775 --> 01:30:10.425
'cause my class starts in 20 minutes.

01:30:10.605 --> 01:30:11.595
I'm gonna tell you though.

01:30:12.075 --> 01:30:12.615
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:30:12.615 --> 01:30:16.095
And this is really, this could be
the first of two or even three.

01:30:16.095 --> 01:30:16.155
Yeah.

01:30:16.455 --> 01:30:16.935
Oh my gosh.

01:30:16.935 --> 01:30:18.795
Have we got a lot more ground to cover?

01:30:18.795 --> 01:30:20.715
And I haven't even begun to
ask you about horses yet.

01:30:21.255 --> 01:30:21.256
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:30:21.255 --> 01:30:21.765
Yes.

01:30:21.765 --> 01:30:22.095
Rupert Isaacson: Horse brains.

01:30:22.125 --> 01:30:22.485
Yes.

01:30:22.755 --> 01:30:23.235
Let's do it.

01:30:23.235 --> 01:30:23.620
So we've gotta get there.

01:30:23.745 --> 01:30:25.935
So listeners, we will
get to all that stuff.

01:30:27.075 --> 01:30:27.076
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:30:27.075 --> 01:30:27.495
Yes.

01:30:27.495 --> 01:30:28.185
But today we're going

01:30:28.185 --> 01:30:29.805
Rupert Isaacson: to do
what Chantel has time for.

01:30:30.075 --> 01:30:30.315
Okay.

01:30:30.555 --> 01:30:30.556
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:30:30.555 --> 01:30:30.975
Yes.

01:30:30.975 --> 01:30:31.605
Thank you.

01:30:31.655 --> 01:30:32.735
So, okay.

01:30:32.735 --> 01:30:34.055
So I think.

01:30:34.640 --> 01:30:38.120
First and foremost, perceptual curiosity.

01:30:38.180 --> 01:30:38.690
Right?

01:30:38.690 --> 01:30:44.670
I think that the same reason we look
for different exper tastes, sensations,

01:30:44.670 --> 01:30:48.000
perspective, and so forth in the
real world gives us a perspective

01:30:48.000 --> 01:30:49.800
and broadens our sense making.

01:30:49.860 --> 01:30:50.100
Makes sense.

01:30:50.150 --> 01:30:52.250
So that's what, what draws us to it.

01:30:52.250 --> 01:30:56.210
But I just read this paper that I am
kind of obsessed with that's about

01:30:56.210 --> 01:31:01.330
dreams and and it's, it, you know, some
of the people in my lab didn't like it

01:31:01.360 --> 01:31:07.000
'cause it uses AI and computers as a,
as a way of explaining why we need this.

01:31:07.000 --> 01:31:08.980
So you're like, what's
the healing benefit?

01:31:09.520 --> 01:31:13.560
So, the idea with the dreams
was that we take our sort of

01:31:13.950 --> 01:31:15.690
narrative story structure.

01:31:15.690 --> 01:31:18.960
The part of the brain would be
called the default mode network.

01:31:18.960 --> 01:31:24.160
It's kind of where our mental model
of the world and our place in it

01:31:24.190 --> 01:31:28.120
resides after, you know, hundreds
of thousands of memories and facts

01:31:28.150 --> 01:31:32.260
and learning and personal narrative
settle into this default mode

01:31:32.260 --> 01:31:34.180
network, which is where we store.

01:31:34.690 --> 01:31:35.860
The way we understand is that

01:31:35.860 --> 01:31:38.110
Rupert Isaacson: located in a
particular geographic area of the brain.

01:31:38.450 --> 01:31:38.451
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:31:38.450 --> 01:31:43.790
The whole, it has, it's located in pretty
much all lobes of the brain, but yeah,

01:31:43.790 --> 01:31:47.600
it's kind of in the central parts of
the brain, the temporal lobes and these

01:31:47.600 --> 01:31:51.980
parts of the brain turn on when you mind
wander, turn off when you're on, on task.

01:31:52.470 --> 01:31:54.930
So, and they're, you
know, very characteristic.

01:31:54.930 --> 01:31:58.380
You can, I could tell your brain from
my brain easily by looking at our

01:31:58.380 --> 01:32:00.450
sense-making kind of default mode network.

01:32:01.080 --> 01:32:04.590
So the idea is that
when we dream, we take.

01:32:05.250 --> 01:32:09.060
You know, the reason dreams are kind
of like fantastical and, and like

01:32:09.060 --> 01:32:12.480
they have like combination of things
that are just normal and things that

01:32:12.480 --> 01:32:16.350
are like totally weird, but they're
always story-like, because your

01:32:16.350 --> 01:32:20.130
brain is trying to avoid overfitting,
which means I've sampled a lot of

01:32:20.130 --> 01:32:26.370
experiences over and over, but there's
this space in between that is unknown.

01:32:26.370 --> 01:32:31.410
And so I might make a wrong conclusion
because I haven't gone there.

01:32:32.070 --> 01:32:35.640
And what I, I think I find this
just so evocative, this idea that,

01:32:35.640 --> 01:32:40.800
well, when you sleep, your brain
puts noise into that story system

01:32:40.800 --> 01:32:44.070
to help you explore the in-between.

01:32:45.330 --> 01:32:47.340
Like have you ever had a dream where.

01:32:47.765 --> 01:32:50.855
You're hanging out with your son and
you're like walking through the forest

01:32:50.855 --> 01:32:53.915
and everything is totally normal, except
your son is actually not your son.

01:32:53.915 --> 01:32:55.295
Like the person doing business.

01:32:55.295 --> 01:32:59.885
As this person, you're, you're perfectly
willing to accept that this person is

01:32:59.885 --> 01:33:03.575
ex, although they're like the wrong
gender, the wrong age, it's just

01:33:03.575 --> 01:33:05.525
like a completely different person.

01:33:05.525 --> 01:33:05.585
Yeah.

01:33:05.585 --> 01:33:08.495
So they're like, it's like you have
known actors and agents, but they

01:33:08.495 --> 01:33:12.335
get all scrambled up and then you
just tell a story and your brain

01:33:12.335 --> 01:33:13.985
goes through this set of experiences.

01:33:13.985 --> 01:33:19.295
So I, I believe that like, some of our
hallucinogenic experiences, not only

01:33:19.295 --> 01:33:23.225
are they like increasing plasticity
with serotonin, but they're also like,

01:33:23.855 --> 01:33:28.175
you know, they're, they're exploring
the in-between these, they're allowing

01:33:28.175 --> 01:33:32.855
you to experience something maybe you
couldn't ever really experience here.

01:33:35.195 --> 01:33:35.945
Rupert Isaacson: Got a question?

01:33:36.365 --> 01:33:36.366
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:33:36.365 --> 01:33:36.815
Yeah.

01:33:36.935 --> 01:33:37.865
Rupert Isaacson: You just said something.

01:33:39.215 --> 01:33:41.350
Why so why does serotonin
increase plasticity?

01:33:41.950 --> 01:33:42.070
I.

01:33:43.130 --> 01:33:43.131
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:33:43.130 --> 01:33:43.910
It's a great question.

01:33:43.910 --> 01:33:48.350
We don't know, but we know that the
that these, a lot of the hallucinogenic

01:33:48.530 --> 01:33:52.580
drugs that seem to have mood
rehabilitation affects work on serotonin.

01:33:52.580 --> 01:33:53.325
What we don't know is like

01:33:53.505 --> 01:33:55.340
Rupert Isaacson: silvan
or psilocybin rather.

01:33:55.370 --> 01:33:55.371
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:33:55.370 --> 01:33:56.241
Yes, yes, yes.

01:33:56.330 --> 01:33:57.045
Yeah, exactly.

01:33:57.800 --> 01:34:01.400
But we don't know why, like
serotonin re-uptake inhibitors,

01:34:01.400 --> 01:34:02.270
like antidepressants.

01:34:02.270 --> 01:34:04.580
We don't know why they don't make you
hallucinate, why they don't have the

01:34:04.580 --> 01:34:06.650
same kind of like learning effects.

01:34:07.520 --> 01:34:07.790
Oh,

01:34:09.800 --> 01:34:10.490
this is my alarm.

01:34:10.490 --> 01:34:11.510
Just telling me I have a couple

01:34:11.510 --> 01:34:11.720
Rupert Isaacson: minutes.

01:34:12.200 --> 01:34:13.455
Okay, well that is our pause mode.

01:34:13.475 --> 01:34:13.695
And

01:34:13.700 --> 01:34:13.701
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:34:13.700 --> 01:34:16.130
that, I mean, so that is
like, so it blows my mind.

01:34:16.190 --> 01:34:20.150
Like I said, it's only a theory, but this
is, to me, these two things make sense.

01:34:20.150 --> 01:34:26.150
The desire to see, feel, experience,
different things and that these

01:34:26.150 --> 01:34:29.990
altered states of consciousness
to some extent, depending on your

01:34:29.990 --> 01:34:32.990
own, the adventure you've chosen,
allow you to experience things.

01:34:32.990 --> 01:34:33.560
You couldn't.

01:34:34.655 --> 01:34:36.425
Really experience in this world.

01:34:36.965 --> 01:34:40.825
And that like dreams, there's
this idea of what you learn

01:34:40.825 --> 01:34:42.385
allows you to predict the future.

01:34:42.385 --> 01:34:46.885
But we have, we tend to sort of
have similar experiences over

01:34:46.885 --> 01:34:49.855
and over, and that, that leads to
something called overfitting where

01:34:49.855 --> 01:34:54.015
you develop like, superstitions and
you've like correlated two things

01:34:54.015 --> 01:34:55.905
together that aren't really related.

01:34:55.905 --> 01:35:01.125
And so your, your meaning model likes to
like, let me just inject repeated thoughts

01:35:01.125 --> 01:35:02.385
Rupert Isaacson: becoming beliefs, right?

01:35:02.475 --> 01:35:02.476
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:35:02.475 --> 01:35:03.525
Yeah, yeah,

01:35:03.525 --> 01:35:04.125
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

01:35:05.295 --> 01:35:06.105
Interesting.

01:35:06.285 --> 01:35:08.955
So, and it's interesting
your point about why Yeah.

01:35:09.015 --> 01:35:16.725
Why doesn't the artificial serotonin
take thing work in the same brain

01:35:16.965 --> 01:35:18.730
smic way as the real mm-hmm.

01:35:19.185 --> 01:35:19.635
Thing.

01:35:19.665 --> 01:35:22.185
'cause I guess 'cause it's
not the real thing, you know?

01:35:22.185 --> 01:35:22.270
I think

01:35:22.270 --> 01:35:22.271
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:35:22.270 --> 01:35:22.430
so,

01:35:22.570 --> 01:35:23.895
Rupert Isaacson: and I guess mother nature

01:35:23.895 --> 01:35:23.896
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:35:23.895 --> 01:35:25.905
gave us those magic
mushrooms for a reason like

01:35:25.905 --> 01:35:26.835
Rupert Isaacson: oxytocin, right?

01:35:26.835 --> 01:35:28.725
You know, a shot of oxytocin.

01:35:29.415 --> 01:35:31.905
Gotten through the natural ways is wow.

01:35:32.775 --> 01:35:34.875
And give Pitocin through the nose.

01:35:34.875 --> 01:35:36.735
Bring down some breast, breast milk.

01:35:36.735 --> 01:35:38.895
But it won't make you feel That's right.

01:35:38.955 --> 01:35:39.525
Eureka.

01:35:39.615 --> 01:35:39.915
No.

01:35:40.245 --> 01:35:40.575
Yeah.

01:35:40.665 --> 01:35:40.666
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:35:40.665 --> 01:35:40.905
Yeah.

01:35:41.415 --> 01:35:46.785
Rupert Isaacson: We're clever monkeys,
but I guess nature's always best.

01:35:47.440 --> 01:35:47.441
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:35:47.440 --> 01:35:48.885
Right, right.

01:35:50.265 --> 01:35:53.025
Rupert Isaacson: Listen, there's so
many more questions and I wanted to get

01:35:53.025 --> 01:35:55.455
into the quantum aspects of the brain.

01:35:56.175 --> 01:35:58.815
There've been some interesting
studies in the last year on this.

01:35:58.815 --> 01:36:03.225
I wanted to get your take about
the microtubules within myelin

01:36:03.225 --> 01:36:06.675
and all that stuff, and I wanted
to go into the horse brain.

01:36:07.305 --> 01:36:08.925
Thing people talking about and

01:36:08.930 --> 01:36:08.931
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:36:08.930 --> 01:36:10.215
how we understand horse brains.

01:36:10.275 --> 01:36:10.755
Right.

01:36:10.755 --> 01:36:11.805
Well, we'll have to do part two.

01:36:12.045 --> 01:36:13.215
Rupert Isaacson: So let's do part two.

01:36:13.425 --> 01:36:17.175
So yes, we will ask if horses have
prefrontal cortexes or, and if they don't,

01:36:17.175 --> 01:36:18.975
why do they seem to behave as if they do?

01:36:19.215 --> 01:36:21.705
And we, we'll, I want to
ask all these questions.

01:36:21.805 --> 01:36:23.455
I'm sure that the listeners
want to hear them.

01:36:23.635 --> 01:36:26.335
So shall we reschedule a part two?

01:36:26.335 --> 01:36:26.930
Yes, please.

01:36:26.995 --> 01:36:28.255
And then what We don't get to that.

01:36:28.255 --> 01:36:29.335
We'll do an part three.

01:36:29.905 --> 01:36:29.906
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:36:29.905 --> 01:36:30.175
Yes.

01:36:30.175 --> 01:36:31.345
And then what we don't get to that.

01:36:31.345 --> 01:36:32.125
We'll do an part four

01:36:32.365 --> 01:36:32.785
Rupert Isaacson: super.

01:36:32.785 --> 01:36:32.935
When

01:36:32.935 --> 01:36:32.936
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:36:32.935 --> 01:36:35.125
I come to live with you in Spain,
I don't know if you're with us

01:36:35.125 --> 01:36:36.385
that well, there is also drive day,

01:36:36.605 --> 01:36:40.205
Rupert Isaacson: Coming up horse boy
Drive Day in Ireland, August 9th to 11th.

01:36:40.655 --> 01:36:41.735
Just put it in your diary.

01:36:42.275 --> 01:36:42.276
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:36:42.275 --> 01:36:42.845
Oh my gosh.

01:36:42.845 --> 01:36:43.685
Rupert Isaacson: A big old piss up.

01:36:43.785 --> 01:36:48.135
At Kco, which is the big horse
boys center, just outside Dublin.

01:36:48.135 --> 01:36:49.425
We'll be camping out and

01:36:49.485 --> 01:36:49.486
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:36:49.485 --> 01:36:52.165
it would be like the real
life aver version of our Irish

01:36:52.165 --> 01:36:55.495
singing in the lobby of the uk.

01:36:55.975 --> 01:36:56.815
Rupert Isaacson: That will be it.

01:36:57.505 --> 01:36:57.745
Yeah.

01:36:58.285 --> 01:36:58.525
Yeah.

01:36:58.555 --> 01:36:58.990
Oh my gosh.

01:36:58.990 --> 01:36:59.140
Yeah.

01:36:59.140 --> 01:36:59.215
Yeah.

01:36:59.215 --> 01:37:00.625
With some brain starts and some ponies.

01:37:00.685 --> 01:37:01.555
Some actual ponies.

01:37:01.765 --> 01:37:01.766
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:37:01.765 --> 01:37:02.455
Oh, that'll be so cool

01:37:02.545 --> 01:37:03.265
Rupert Isaacson: there in the field.

01:37:03.355 --> 01:37:03.595
Yeah.

01:37:03.595 --> 01:37:04.045
So.

01:37:04.850 --> 01:37:07.670
Also for listeners, if this is,
if you're listening to this before

01:37:08.330 --> 01:37:12.410
August, 2025, it will be August
9th to 11th Horse Boy Tribe Day.

01:37:12.620 --> 01:37:14.000
You can find out on our website.

01:37:14.120 --> 01:37:18.260
All the really cool people will be there
m Cool because of who they are and what

01:37:18.260 --> 01:37:20.090
they do and they're worth talking to.

01:37:20.700 --> 01:37:22.230
Hopefully Chantal Pratt might join us.

01:37:22.510 --> 01:37:25.690
If not, she'll come down to Spain
where other listeners can join us too.

01:37:27.190 --> 01:37:29.080
Alright, listen, thank you so much.

01:37:29.300 --> 01:37:30.920
The neuroscience of you right?

01:37:30.920 --> 01:37:34.730
Is the book that people need
to pick up and the exam will

01:37:34.730 --> 01:37:36.830
be during our next podcast.

01:37:36.830 --> 01:37:40.400
So, you know, just memorize
pages one 50 to 2 25.

01:37:40.400 --> 01:37:41.090
You should be fine.

01:37:41.330 --> 01:37:41.540
Okay.

01:37:43.970 --> 01:37:43.971
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:37:43.970 --> 01:37:45.590
But only if you feel curious about it.

01:37:47.210 --> 01:37:47.540
Rupert Isaacson: I'm gonna read it.

01:37:49.610 --> 01:37:50.210
Brilliant.

01:37:50.390 --> 01:37:50.840
Okay.

01:37:50.840 --> 01:37:51.950
Thank you so much.

01:37:52.370 --> 01:37:52.371
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:37:52.370 --> 01:37:52.640
Thank you.

01:37:52.875 --> 01:37:54.440
See, I will see you next time soon.

01:37:54.485 --> 01:37:54.775
Yeah.

01:37:54.775 --> 01:37:54.776
Okay.

01:37:54.781 --> 01:37:55.190
Yeah.

01:37:55.430 --> 01:37:55.970
Rupert Isaacson: We'll, we'll take

01:37:55.970 --> 01:37:55.971
Dr. Chantel Prat:

01:37:55.970 --> 01:37:56.330
care.

01:37:56.660 --> 01:37:57.901
Rupert Isaacson: We'll book
it for the next few weeks.

01:37:57.901 --> 01:38:01.021
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conversation as much as I did.

01:38:01.561 --> 01:38:06.461
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01:39:06.256 --> 01:39:09.066
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01:39:09.336 --> 01:39:10.956
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