Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs Podcast, the show for dog lovers who
see dogs not as toys or tools, but wise souls worth our respect and care.
I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host.
I talk to poor some humans, people who do great work for dogs and their people.
So come and join us for today's conversation.
Anke: Hello and welcome, Vivian.
I'm super excited to have you here.
Vivian: Thank you so much for inviting me, Anka.
I'm really delighted.
I'm thrilled to be here.
I've been looking forward to speaking with you.
Anke: Me too.
Me too.
So let people know, like let's start straight in.
Where are you based and you know, what's your business with dogs?
Vivian: Sure.
So I am presently located right outside Bo Boston, Massachusetts,
in the United States.
It's about, um, I, I'm in, uh, a town called Waltham about,
uh, seven miles, uh, west.
Uh, but I frequent all over Boston, the whole area.
I drive about maybe 20 to 30 miles to meet with clients.
I work with clients in their homes and, uh, I am a human
dog relationship Therapist.
Um, which is a thing.
Uh, so I come from the training world.
I, uh, studied and practiced, learned about training, dog training,
years and years ago, I stumbled into the dog training profession.
Because of my own dogs, I was interested to learn more about them.
And there was also a need where I was living, uh, for PET services.
And so I began a dog walking business and I learned a lot.
Okay.
Yeah.
There were, you know, and then I started to meet people who were
using certain equipment that I, I.
Maybe didn't understand or didn't agree with.
Um, and I wanted to help educate people on the world of the dog.
And as I, uh, I learned more about dogs.
I, uh, studied, uh.
Certainly became, uh, certified in, uh, dog training here in the United States.
There's, uh, some, there's a few credentialing bodies.
So I went, uh, through the path of the Council of Certified Professional
Dog Trainers and, uh, became, uh, certified Fear Free, uh, started
working with a veterinarian.
He and I became friends.
Um.
In the Boston area, and I would shadow him and his staff.
And so we worked together.
I would work with him, and I learned more about clinical medicine, small
animals, and a whole world opened up and it was just so intriguing,
you know, to under, to, to learn about a different animal Right.
That we'd live with.
And, uh, yeah.
And so that brought me into, um.
I was sort of this nerd.
I am a nerd when it comes to dogs.
I'm a sort of a closet nerd, and, um, I was also a junkie and
I, you know, mark Beckoff, Dr.
Nicholas Dodman, um, Sue Sternberg, um, Dr.
Susan Friedman.
There's so many.
Wonderful animal psychologists, animal research, ethologists, um,
veterinarians, and, uh, by their books and read everything that I
could go to the seminars and such.
And I, I, I met Dr.
Nicholas Dodman.
And, um, I asked him if I could work with him or I could volunteer, and he
at the time was starting the Center for Canine Behavior Studies and I was really
interested in a, having access to him because I was working cases, you know,
with behavior modification training.
Um, and.
Also just the mission that they have is, was, is similar to what I, I believe and
want to do, educate people about human dog relationships and, um, and help
reduce the risk of bites to, to people.
And, you know, also surrenders, right?
To reduce the risk of surrenders.
Um, this is all big.
This is all a lot, right?
But if I could just work with him, I would be so happy.
And in fact, he and Chris Elli, uh, interviewed a number of people.
Um, I was hired, um, volunteering.
You don't really get paid.
Uh, but I got to work on studies, uh, which was new to me.
So working on, uh, so the research that we do at the center, they're
mostly, they're survey studies.
Um, and so we have a wonderful.
Statistician, uh, who helps decipher the data.
Um, so I had one foot there and then I was really interested in, again, furthering
my education and I tapped into, um, Dr.
Mark Beckoff is on our advisory board, so I emailed him.
He he's lovely.
He emails me back.
He gave me some guidance about, um, uh, different um.
Uh, wonderful.
Um, because I, I was confused on what I should do.
Should I go neuroscience?
What should I do for a master's of science degree, because
that's a big commitment, right?
And expensive.
But he, uh, he introduced anthology, you know, the study
of human animal relations and.
And, uh, the different facets of human animal relationships.
And that opened up a huge, another world for me.
Learning about the, you know, which you're probably familiar with, you
know, and, uh, just seeing the, our animals, our dogs, our pets, our
cats, seeing a different perspective.
That blew my mind.
And, uh, so.
I just, it was a lot of work and I really enjoyed it and it is still a lot of work.
And, um, for a little period of time I was not taking as many clients
because it was just too overwhelming.
Um, and I was also taking care of my mother.
My mother is 94 years old.
She's a big part of my life, so that's why I'm talking about her.
And, um.
And so my husband and I have been caretaking her and you know, we are
all managing a lot in our lives, right?
For sure.
Yeah.
Um, but I, I just, uh, but lately, um, I.
I, I wanna say in the past couple of years I've taken on more clients.
I'm back to managing about five six.
I, uh, I offer, again, I'd say it's a very long, um, three month, uh,
program where I evaluate, uh, and help.
People understand the function of their animals or their pet dog's behaviors.
A lot of people are, are suffering.
You know, they may have, um, acquired a dog not understanding
that they had a learned past, right?
They had a history or maybe, um, the, the, the pet dog.
Uh, companion develops something over time.
Uh, they might acquire the dog for a rescue or a breeder, and, uh, they might
not understand that they're an individual.
Anke: Yeah.
You know, I, I actually must say I, I really only understood that when
the second dog came into my life, because obviously you start, I mean, I.
One little dog in the street.
Oh, I have a dog, right?
And so, you know, that's how learning starts.
And I didn't really catch on.
To how different they actually are until the second and the third dog.
You know, like I've never had, I've never had more than three at a time, but you
see how they're totally different, you know, and they're in the same household.
They're in the same, they grow up with, with the same people.
So it's like, isn't that interesting?
And I never really gave that much thought before I had the experience.
And I kind of totally get it because, you know, I always wanted
a dog, but it wasn't even, I didn't even go to a breed or rescue, like
Little Relay found me in the street.
They all did, except the last one, you know?
And so it was like I was prepared and I wasn't, you know?
Mm-hmm.
So I kind of wanted it, but I also like, yeah, you.
In your experience working with people who kind of find that, okay, this having
a dog thing isn't quite what I expected.
Right?
So what is, like, if, are there certain things that, um, that
you wish people knew about
Vivian: with, uh.
With respect to the challenges with, with respect to, to dogs, I wish that
they would, they understood that they do talk to us, they communicate to us.
Um, and that's really, that communication is the, you know,
unfortunately we talk, talk, talk, talk.
We were use words, right?
And we overlook the fact that our dogs.
Don't.
Right.
If, if people could understand that our dogs do under do communicate.
They are providing information through their signaling.
Right?
But.
They're also understanding how we feel through, through smelling
us, through observing us.
Right?
And so they learn the same way as we do through, um, positive and
negative associations, you know?
Um, so I wish people maybe invested a little bit more time, just a
little bit in learning theory.
Doesn't have to be, you know, just to help them too, right?
Yes, yes.
Our psychology is very similar.
Mm.
You know, our, our psychology is very similar and, um, and I don't wanna
make this about promoting my book.
Well, why not?
Let's do it.
But that's, but I, that's, that's, I write about, um, my book is entitled,
being Good Dog in the Human's World.
And I go over.
The, um, some of the issues that we, um, we stumble upon,
uh, knowingly or unknowingly.
I talk about guardianship and ownership, the differences.
What, is there a difference?
Why is it, why does it matter if we think of ourselves as a, an
owner versus a guard, a guardian?
Because it, it does affect how we behave as.
As, as, um, caretakers, right?
Mm-hmm.
Um, and I know someone might think, you know, you're getting, you know,
it's all terminology, but it does affect us, um, in our behavior.
I talk about the, um, wealth I try to give people, um, I.
Perspective from, from, um, what it is like to be a dog.
We'll never really know 'cause we're humans, right?
But emotionally we are the same.
I talk about training, I talk about our relationship, how we became
friends, the history of, of the dog and human, where it goes wrong.
I just want, I don't, it's not coming from a place of judgment.
It's more factual.
It's all evidence based.
And, um, it's up to people, you know, to, to, you know, you know, if they're
interested in diving in a little bit deeper, maybe reflecting upon themselves.
I talk about some cases I've worked on.
Not all of them were successful.
You unfortunately, we, um, we sometimes, uh, you know.
We want things easy and, um, we might make mistakes sometimes.
You know, we make mistakes that can be hurtful and, uh, and I,
anyway, it's not a sad book.
It's just, it's a a, it's a factual book.
Took me a long time, uh, to write.
Um oh.
And then, um, I have, uh, another one coming out.
Um, it's the, the next one's gonna be fiction and it's about
a dog, um, that I write in the first book, uh, chapter seven,
Anke: you know how to tease right now we have to get the first book
to understand the second one, right?
Vivian: No, uh, the second one is, um, it's on pet loss.
Oh, mm, because, um, there I go again.
I don't mean to get sad, but, uh, the, uh, one of the dogs, uh, all of
the dogs, I fell in love with all of the dogs, people I fell in love with.
They're all wonderful.
Uh, but, uh, this one dog, uh, ended up, um, with cancer, uh, uh,
Cammy older dog, nine years old.
She lived, uh, it talk, the, the second book talks about her journey, uh,
from a puppy mill to a loving home.
It talks about building confidence, resilience, and.
Uh, it's a lovely book.
I found a beau, a beautiful illustrator in Poland, um, from Poland, um,
who does all the illustration.
We collaborated and I, I, I educated her a little bit about the world
of the dog and body language and she was able to shape it.
Uh, so it's, I I love it.
I love it.
I hope others will too.
Anyway, so educating people is really important to me.
Yeah.
Anke: No, that's, that's beautiful.
It's, um, I mean, see what, like, what actually sparked me to even start this
whole podcast and everything was that I saw so many times that people would use,
like, use looks kind of like, oh, we get a, we get a dog for the kid, right?
And it's like, oh, you know, it's just as if it was just a toy.
And then, and then, you know, it's either the dog needs to serve.
I mean, that's, I don't know.
I always think where I come from in Germany, it's not that extreme, but
in Spain it certainly is, right?
So the dog's either a toy for the kids or it's like a, a like guardian or
it, or it's an emotional support dog.
Like there's almost like it's a tool or it's a toy.
Right, right.
I never really felt that really that it appreciated the wisdom they have
and how much they have to teach us.
You know, and I love, I love how you come at this to sort of say, well
actually you help if you understand.
If you take a minute to try and look at the world through the eyes of
a dog, you know you're never gonna look at the world the same again.
Vivian: And you know what?
An it also helps us.
To understand other people, our animals, our animal friends, understanding.
And that's something that was a revelation for me as well when I began
to, you know, take a step back and, uh.
Understand what the dog was saying and how they were feeling based
on what they were presenting.
It then transfers to our under, looking at other people, right, and
saying, okay, wait a minute, maybe that person's having a ha hard day.
This person that cuts me off or yells at me or.
You know, what is the underlying, it's, what is the underlying reason
why, you know, taking that step back and saying why, why, what could it be?
Right?
And giving people more of a be benefit of the doubt, just as we should
with our animal friends, right?
Mm-hmm.
And you know, it's interesting that you talk about the toys,
uh, that, that people, and they do, they commodify our animals.
And this is, this is something I talk about as well, and.
Um, you know, I understand people have to make a living and they get desperate
and, you know, they start breeding dogs in the backyard and they're selling 'em and,
but, uh, or they gift a dog to a child.
And, um, and unfortunately even with our toys, right?
Um, I'm kind of, I don't mean to.
Go, go, um, talk about many, many things right here, but I'm,
I'm thinking about even our toys that we give children, right?
That the little dog and they're squeezing and they're holding and they're pulling.
And so this is the way we introduce our animals to our
dogs, which is not, is not right.
When the per, when this young child grows a little bit older, or maybe,
you know, maybe even as a young child, then they're gifted a, a dog.
They're, they're treating the dog like a toy.
They're mishandling the dog and then dogs have teeth.
Anke: Right.
Exactly.
And
Vivian: then it's always
Anke: the fault of the dog.
Right,
Vivian: right.
But then also the parents.
And, and I understand this, they wanna have, you know, in terms of, um, families,
you know, especially here in the United States and in, we in Western cultures,
we're seeing more and more dogs are part of the family and, um, accepted
into the family and I appreciate that.
But I think the pendulum is going too much to the right, in my opinion.
Um, that.
You know, dogs are called siblings and brothers.
And, um, and, and then the reason why we, we just maybe, maybe wanna.
Take a step back is because when we think of our animal friends as uh, a brother
or sister, a biological brother, and we know as adults, they are not, but
a child doesn't, they're fantastical.
Right.
Um.
And we might also, uh, drop our defenses, right?
And may not supervise.
And then the child might toss with the dog and pull the dog or bite the dog,
and then the dog doesn't wanna bite.
But, you know, everyone has a limit.
So there's a lot that can go wrong, um, uh, when we bring two
different species together, right?
Without, and there's a lot that goes
Anke: right.
Yeah.
You know, but I think without that level of respect to, to, you know, I
think it is a beautiful opportunity if you get a dog for a child.
It's a beautiful opportunity.
You know, I've had encounters that were horrible where I'm thinking,
well, I'm doing this education here that you parents over there were not
even looking, should have done, you know, when little kids would come and
like just, oh my kind of pounce on.
Yeah, no, I wasn't friendly, you know, but, uh, at the, the same time,
you know, there was a particular incident, incident, I remember that
little boy was maybe five years old.
Like you could really tell in that little face.
Nobody had told him that.
Like nobody had told him that he cannot just kind of pounce on a dog, you know?
And so, but at the same time, sometimes you meet little kids
that have such a way and so gentle and so you can tell they grew up.
So it's a beautiful opportunity.
You know, to introduce them, right?
And to teach them from this really young age of how to
respect another being, you know?
I agree.
And so I think there's a lot of opportunity and there's a
lot of ways it can go home, you know, when you sort of I agree.
Vivian: I agree.
We, um, at the center we have an educational initiative, the
CCBS Center for Canine Behavior Studies, and we are, um, producing
animated videos for children.
Yeah, we, we are now on our second, the first one is Pause to Prevent.
Um, and the second one that we're working on is, um, let Sleeping Dogs Lie, and
they're just little vignettes, uh, but they're designed for young children.
Uh, and their parents to understand body language and
understand the idea of respect.
And everyone has a personal bubble.
Uh, everyone meaning all animals, right?
Human, dog, cat.
Uh, and that
Anke: should go into schools, you know, that should be mandatory in schools.
Yeah.
You know, it's
Vivian: free.
They're, it's, it's, it's a, it's a free resource and we, um, we've
connected with like the A VMA.
Um, uh, a lot of pediatricians are asking for it.
So we're, we are trying to get the word out and, uh, and that, um, so
we have, uh, the free videos and then also coloring books that are
associated with it's, you know, so we're gonna be, we're producing that.
There's a series of 10 and then the sec we're also working on, um.
Artificial reality applications again.
Um, we've got a, a, a really talented, um, designer on, on, on our team that
is, um, working, um, again, be bite smart and moving it into the digital tech.
That digital technology, which will be for a little old, you know,
older, um, people or older children.
I love that.
Yeah.
So I
Anke: love that we're, we're all
Vivian: trying.
Anke: Yeah.
And I think it is about education.
I've always said like this whole, you know, dogs needing rescue and all
this, like, nothing will fundamentally change until a new generation
is taught something different.
You know?
So I think it's like, it's that children need to be taught something different.
For that to change.
Right.
You know, so there's always the bandaid and there's always people kind of
helping right there in the front lines.
But also the root of it is like that attitude towards animals.
It's, oh, they just kind of like need to serve me or they, you know, it's
like that needs to be replaced with something, you know, much more respectful.
I agree.
Vivian: I agree.
I agree.
And I love that you're
Anke: kind of working in that, in that direction.
So where can people go and find out more about your books and about that, the
initiative and, you know, and about you?
Sure, sure.
Vivian: If they go to vivian zo.com,
they'll, there's information about my books, there's information about the
Center for Canine Behavior Studies or be Bite Smart and, uh, that'll,
that'll take them where they need to go.
Anke: We'll obviously pop that if you're just listening, if you're
just driving and listening, it's in the show notes and it's definitely
right below wherever you're watching this or, or, or, or listening to it.
So thank you so much.
It's absolutely delightful.
You have such a calm presence.
It's real joy to hang out with you, so I'm very much enjoyed it.
Thank you.
Vivian: Thank you dear.
Thanks so much for listening.
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That's A N k E at Soul touched by dogs.com.