WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.789 --> 00:00:06.320 Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs Podcast, the show for dog lovers who 00:00:06.340 --> 00:00:12.000 see dogs not as toys or tools, but wise souls worth our respect and care. 00:00:12.580 --> 00:00:14.559 I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host. 00:00:15.320 --> 00:00:20.560 I talk to poor some humans, people who do great work for dogs and their people. 00:00:21.099 --> 00:00:23.360 So come and join us for today's conversation. 00:00:25.257 --> 00:00:27.387 Anke: Hello and welcome, Vivian. 00:00:27.777 --> 00:00:29.697 I'm super excited to have you here. 00:00:31.107 --> 00:00:33.297 Vivian: Thank you so much for inviting me, Anka. 00:00:33.297 --> 00:00:34.977 I'm really delighted. 00:00:34.977 --> 00:00:35.967 I'm thrilled to be here. 00:00:35.967 --> 00:00:37.977 I've been looking forward to speaking with you. 00:00:38.772 --> 00:00:39.282 Anke: Me too. 00:00:39.282 --> 00:00:39.852 Me too. 00:00:40.212 --> 00:00:43.422 So let people know, like let's start straight in. 00:00:43.422 --> 00:00:46.962 Where are you based and you know, what's your business with dogs? 00:00:47.772 --> 00:00:48.072 Vivian: Sure. 00:00:48.642 --> 00:00:53.142 So I am presently located right outside Bo Boston, Massachusetts, 00:00:53.142 --> 00:00:53.683 in the United States. 00:00:54.867 --> 00:00:59.967 It's about, um, I, I'm in, uh, a town called Waltham about, 00:00:59.997 --> 00:01:02.697 uh, seven miles, uh, west. 00:01:03.237 --> 00:01:07.437 Uh, but I frequent all over Boston, the whole area. 00:01:07.527 --> 00:01:11.607 I drive about maybe 20 to 30 miles to meet with clients. 00:01:12.237 --> 00:01:16.617 I work with clients in their homes and, uh, I am a human 00:01:16.617 --> 00:01:18.417 dog relationship Therapist. 00:01:19.272 --> 00:01:20.652 Um, which is a thing. 00:01:21.312 --> 00:01:23.412 Uh, so I come from the training world. 00:01:23.412 --> 00:01:29.802 I, uh, studied and practiced, learned about training, dog training, 00:01:29.802 --> 00:01:35.112 years and years ago, I stumbled into the dog training profession. 00:01:35.817 --> 00:01:40.047 Because of my own dogs, I was interested to learn more about them. 00:01:40.947 --> 00:01:47.127 And there was also a need where I was living, uh, for PET services. 00:01:47.217 --> 00:01:53.247 And so I began a dog walking business and I learned a lot. 00:01:53.667 --> 00:01:53.697 Okay. 00:01:54.687 --> 00:01:55.287 Yeah. 00:01:55.347 --> 00:01:58.407 There were, you know, and then I started to meet people who were 00:01:58.407 --> 00:02:02.817 using certain equipment that I, I. 00:02:03.297 --> 00:02:06.237 Maybe didn't understand or didn't agree with. 00:02:06.417 --> 00:02:12.537 Um, and I wanted to help educate people on the world of the dog. 00:02:13.767 --> 00:02:16.827 And as I, uh, I learned more about dogs. 00:02:16.827 --> 00:02:19.437 I, uh, studied, uh. 00:02:21.027 --> 00:02:26.457 Certainly became, uh, certified in, uh, dog training here in the United States. 00:02:26.457 --> 00:02:29.337 There's, uh, some, there's a few credentialing bodies. 00:02:29.727 --> 00:02:33.597 So I went, uh, through the path of the Council of Certified Professional 00:02:33.597 --> 00:02:39.687 Dog Trainers and, uh, became, uh, certified Fear Free, uh, started 00:02:39.687 --> 00:02:41.457 working with a veterinarian. 00:02:41.787 --> 00:02:43.407 He and I became friends. 00:02:43.467 --> 00:02:44.007 Um. 00:02:44.092 --> 00:02:48.622 In the Boston area, and I would shadow him and his staff. 00:02:48.622 --> 00:02:50.872 And so we worked together. 00:02:50.872 --> 00:02:55.282 I would work with him, and I learned more about clinical medicine, small 00:02:55.282 --> 00:03:01.342 animals, and a whole world opened up and it was just so intriguing, 00:03:01.522 --> 00:03:05.362 you know, to under, to, to learn about a different animal Right. 00:03:05.362 --> 00:03:06.262 That we'd live with. 00:03:06.802 --> 00:03:08.482 And, uh, yeah. 00:03:08.482 --> 00:03:10.912 And so that brought me into, um. 00:03:12.012 --> 00:03:13.482 I was sort of this nerd. 00:03:13.542 --> 00:03:15.552 I am a nerd when it comes to dogs. 00:03:15.552 --> 00:03:21.432 I'm a sort of a closet nerd, and, um, I was also a junkie and 00:03:21.552 --> 00:03:24.642 I, you know, mark Beckoff, Dr. 00:03:24.642 --> 00:03:30.042 Nicholas Dodman, um, Sue Sternberg, um, Dr. 00:03:30.102 --> 00:03:30.852 Susan Friedman. 00:03:30.852 --> 00:03:31.602 There's so many. 00:03:32.052 --> 00:03:38.262 Wonderful animal psychologists, animal research, ethologists, um, 00:03:38.382 --> 00:03:43.632 veterinarians, and, uh, by their books and read everything that I 00:03:43.632 --> 00:03:46.602 could go to the seminars and such. 00:03:46.602 --> 00:03:48.552 And I, I, I met Dr. 00:03:48.552 --> 00:03:49.602 Nicholas Dodman. 00:03:50.877 --> 00:03:56.877 And, um, I asked him if I could work with him or I could volunteer, and he 00:03:56.877 --> 00:04:02.577 at the time was starting the Center for Canine Behavior Studies and I was really 00:04:02.577 --> 00:04:08.217 interested in a, having access to him because I was working cases, you know, 00:04:08.217 --> 00:04:10.437 with behavior modification training. 00:04:11.007 --> 00:04:12.327 Um, and. 00:04:13.767 --> 00:04:19.887 Also just the mission that they have is, was, is similar to what I, I believe and 00:04:19.887 --> 00:04:26.307 want to do, educate people about human dog relationships and, um, and help 00:04:26.517 --> 00:04:31.557 reduce the risk of bites to, to people. 00:04:31.557 --> 00:04:34.707 And, you know, also surrenders, right? 00:04:34.737 --> 00:04:36.927 To reduce the risk of surrenders. 00:04:36.957 --> 00:04:38.787 Um, this is all big. 00:04:38.787 --> 00:04:40.137 This is all a lot, right? 00:04:41.412 --> 00:04:44.232 But if I could just work with him, I would be so happy. 00:04:44.232 --> 00:04:49.692 And in fact, he and Chris Elli, uh, interviewed a number of people. 00:04:49.752 --> 00:04:53.052 Um, I was hired, um, volunteering. 00:04:53.052 --> 00:04:54.162 You don't really get paid. 00:04:54.912 --> 00:04:58.992 Uh, but I got to work on studies, uh, which was new to me. 00:04:59.202 --> 00:05:02.472 So working on, uh, so the research that we do at the center, they're 00:05:02.802 --> 00:05:04.782 mostly, they're survey studies. 00:05:05.262 --> 00:05:07.392 Um, and so we have a wonderful. 00:05:08.022 --> 00:05:12.312 Statistician, uh, who helps decipher the data. 00:05:12.732 --> 00:05:18.192 Um, so I had one foot there and then I was really interested in, again, furthering 00:05:18.192 --> 00:05:22.302 my education and I tapped into, um, Dr. 00:05:22.302 --> 00:05:27.042 Mark Beckoff is on our advisory board, so I emailed him. 00:05:27.312 --> 00:05:28.572 He he's lovely. 00:05:29.052 --> 00:05:30.162 He emails me back. 00:05:30.762 --> 00:05:35.922 He gave me some guidance about, um, uh, different um. 00:05:36.537 --> 00:05:38.757 Uh, wonderful. 00:05:38.757 --> 00:05:42.117 Um, because I, I was confused on what I should do. 00:05:42.117 --> 00:05:44.097 Should I go neuroscience? 00:05:44.097 --> 00:05:46.137 What should I do for a master's of science degree, because 00:05:46.137 --> 00:05:47.757 that's a big commitment, right? 00:05:47.757 --> 00:05:49.137 And expensive. 00:05:50.157 --> 00:05:54.987 But he, uh, he introduced anthology, you know, the study 00:05:54.987 --> 00:05:57.042 of human animal relations and. 00:05:58.242 --> 00:06:02.652 And, uh, the different facets of human animal relationships. 00:06:02.652 --> 00:06:05.412 And that opened up a huge, another world for me. 00:06:05.922 --> 00:06:09.882 Learning about the, you know, which you're probably familiar with, you 00:06:09.882 --> 00:06:15.642 know, and, uh, just seeing the, our animals, our dogs, our pets, our 00:06:15.642 --> 00:06:18.972 cats, seeing a different perspective. 00:06:19.062 --> 00:06:21.732 That blew my mind. 00:06:22.182 --> 00:06:24.522 And, uh, so. 00:06:25.347 --> 00:06:29.397 I just, it was a lot of work and I really enjoyed it and it is still a lot of work. 00:06:29.547 --> 00:06:34.347 And, um, for a little period of time I was not taking as many clients 00:06:35.397 --> 00:06:37.587 because it was just too overwhelming. 00:06:38.037 --> 00:06:40.467 Um, and I was also taking care of my mother. 00:06:40.467 --> 00:06:42.057 My mother is 94 years old. 00:06:42.057 --> 00:06:44.727 She's a big part of my life, so that's why I'm talking about her. 00:06:44.727 --> 00:06:45.447 And, um. 00:06:46.397 --> 00:06:51.167 And so my husband and I have been caretaking her and you know, we are 00:06:51.167 --> 00:06:53.507 all managing a lot in our lives, right? 00:06:53.512 --> 00:06:53.912 For sure. 00:06:54.102 --> 00:06:54.392 Yeah. 00:06:54.392 --> 00:07:00.467 Um, but I, I just, uh, but lately, um, I. 00:07:00.467 --> 00:07:04.122 I, I wanna say in the past couple of years I've taken on more clients. 00:07:04.122 --> 00:07:07.512 I'm back to managing about five six. 00:07:08.472 --> 00:07:15.132 I, uh, I offer, again, I'd say it's a very long, um, three month, uh, 00:07:15.132 --> 00:07:19.512 program where I evaluate, uh, and help. 00:07:20.262 --> 00:07:24.642 People understand the function of their animals or their pet dog's behaviors. 00:07:24.642 --> 00:07:26.922 A lot of people are, are suffering. 00:07:27.282 --> 00:07:32.592 You know, they may have, um, acquired a dog not understanding 00:07:32.592 --> 00:07:35.262 that they had a learned past, right? 00:07:35.262 --> 00:07:41.952 They had a history or maybe, um, the, the, the pet dog. 00:07:42.387 --> 00:07:46.767 Uh, companion develops something over time. 00:07:47.157 --> 00:07:54.357 Uh, they might acquire the dog for a rescue or a breeder, and, uh, they might 00:07:54.357 --> 00:07:57.357 not understand that they're an individual. 00:07:58.137 --> 00:07:58.467 Anke: Yeah. 00:07:58.467 --> 00:08:03.657 You know, I, I actually must say I, I really only understood that when 00:08:04.047 --> 00:08:07.422 the second dog came into my life, because obviously you start, I mean, I. 00:08:09.732 --> 00:08:11.352 One little dog in the street. 00:08:11.412 --> 00:08:12.672 Oh, I have a dog, right? 00:08:13.302 --> 00:08:16.392 And so, you know, that's how learning starts. 00:08:16.392 --> 00:08:20.562 And I didn't really catch on. 00:08:21.447 --> 00:08:25.437 To how different they actually are until the second and the third dog. 00:08:25.437 --> 00:08:29.907 You know, like I've never had, I've never had more than three at a time, but you 00:08:29.907 --> 00:08:33.057 see how they're totally different, you know, and they're in the same household. 00:08:33.687 --> 00:08:36.867 They're in the same, they grow up with, with the same people. 00:08:36.867 --> 00:08:38.457 So it's like, isn't that interesting? 00:08:38.757 --> 00:08:42.372 And I never really gave that much thought before I had the experience. 00:08:44.042 --> 00:08:46.982 And I kind of totally get it because, you know, I always wanted 00:08:46.982 --> 00:08:51.092 a dog, but it wasn't even, I didn't even go to a breed or rescue, like 00:08:51.182 --> 00:08:53.402 Little Relay found me in the street. 00:08:53.462 --> 00:08:55.832 They all did, except the last one, you know? 00:08:55.832 --> 00:08:59.522 And so it was like I was prepared and I wasn't, you know? 00:08:59.522 --> 00:08:59.672 Mm-hmm. 00:08:59.672 --> 00:09:03.417 So I kind of wanted it, but I also like, yeah, you. 00:09:08.937 --> 00:09:14.007 In your experience working with people who kind of find that, okay, this having 00:09:14.007 --> 00:09:16.407 a dog thing isn't quite what I expected. 00:09:16.497 --> 00:09:16.767 Right? 00:09:17.157 --> 00:09:21.867 So what is, like, if, are there certain things that, um, that 00:09:21.867 --> 00:09:24.537 you wish people knew about 00:09:27.177 --> 00:09:27.957 Vivian: with, uh. 00:09:28.512 --> 00:09:33.972 With respect to the challenges with, with respect to, to dogs, I wish that 00:09:33.972 --> 00:09:39.942 they would, they understood that they do talk to us, they communicate to us. 00:09:40.842 --> 00:09:47.712 Um, and that's really, that communication is the, you know, 00:09:47.922 --> 00:09:49.512 unfortunately we talk, talk, talk, talk. 00:09:49.512 --> 00:09:50.832 We were use words, right? 00:09:51.312 --> 00:09:53.922 And we overlook the fact that our dogs. 00:09:54.522 --> 00:09:55.092 Don't. 00:09:55.092 --> 00:09:55.422 Right. 00:09:55.992 --> 00:10:00.252 If, if people could understand that our dogs do under do communicate. 00:10:00.252 --> 00:10:05.532 They are providing information through their signaling. 00:10:05.532 --> 00:10:05.922 Right? 00:10:05.927 --> 00:10:05.997 But. 00:10:06.732 --> 00:10:10.542 They're also understanding how we feel through, through smelling 00:10:10.542 --> 00:10:12.762 us, through observing us. 00:10:13.062 --> 00:10:13.542 Right? 00:10:13.902 --> 00:10:18.492 And so they learn the same way as we do through, um, positive and 00:10:18.492 --> 00:10:20.622 negative associations, you know? 00:10:20.802 --> 00:10:27.942 Um, so I wish people maybe invested a little bit more time, just a 00:10:27.942 --> 00:10:29.742 little bit in learning theory. 00:10:29.802 --> 00:10:33.702 Doesn't have to be, you know, just to help them too, right? 00:10:34.692 --> 00:10:36.132 Yes, yes. 00:10:36.507 --> 00:10:37.617 Yes, yes. 00:10:37.617 --> 00:10:39.807 Our psychology is very similar. 00:10:40.647 --> 00:10:40.677 Mm. 00:10:40.677 --> 00:10:47.727 You know, our, our psychology is very similar and, um, and I don't wanna 00:10:47.727 --> 00:10:49.737 make this about promoting my book. 00:10:50.127 --> 00:10:51.057 Well, why not? 00:10:51.177 --> 00:10:51.897 Let's do it. 00:10:51.987 --> 00:10:58.287 But that's, but I, that's, that's, I write about, um, my book is entitled, 00:10:58.287 --> 00:11:00.987 being Good Dog in the Human's World. 00:11:01.497 --> 00:11:04.107 And I go over. 00:11:05.307 --> 00:11:10.287 The, um, some of the issues that we, um, we stumble upon, 00:11:10.677 --> 00:11:12.747 uh, knowingly or unknowingly. 00:11:12.747 --> 00:11:16.887 I talk about guardianship and ownership, the differences. 00:11:16.887 --> 00:11:18.147 What, is there a difference? 00:11:18.147 --> 00:11:22.077 Why is it, why does it matter if we think of ourselves as a, an 00:11:22.077 --> 00:11:24.357 owner versus a guard, a guardian? 00:11:24.387 --> 00:11:28.347 Because it, it does affect how we behave as. 00:11:28.992 --> 00:11:31.752 As, as, um, caretakers, right? 00:11:32.262 --> 00:11:32.352 Mm-hmm. 00:11:32.592 --> 00:11:36.672 Um, and I know someone might think, you know, you're getting, you know, 00:11:36.672 --> 00:11:40.782 it's all terminology, but it does affect us, um, in our behavior. 00:11:41.112 --> 00:11:44.352 I talk about the, um, wealth I try to give people, um, I. 00:11:45.207 --> 00:11:49.347 Perspective from, from, um, what it is like to be a dog. 00:11:49.587 --> 00:11:52.137 We'll never really know 'cause we're humans, right? 00:11:52.347 --> 00:11:54.117 But emotionally we are the same. 00:11:54.537 --> 00:11:58.347 I talk about training, I talk about our relationship, how we became 00:11:58.557 --> 00:12:03.717 friends, the history of, of the dog and human, where it goes wrong. 00:12:04.377 --> 00:12:09.117 I just want, I don't, it's not coming from a place of judgment. 00:12:09.147 --> 00:12:10.257 It's more factual. 00:12:10.257 --> 00:12:11.697 It's all evidence based. 00:12:12.792 --> 00:12:18.282 And, um, it's up to people, you know, to, to, you know, you know, if they're 00:12:18.282 --> 00:12:23.202 interested in diving in a little bit deeper, maybe reflecting upon themselves. 00:12:23.802 --> 00:12:26.292 I talk about some cases I've worked on. 00:12:27.162 --> 00:12:29.082 Not all of them were successful. 00:12:29.592 --> 00:12:37.212 You unfortunately, we, um, we sometimes, uh, you know. 00:12:37.917 --> 00:12:44.037 We want things easy and, um, we might make mistakes sometimes. 00:12:44.757 --> 00:12:49.917 You know, we make mistakes that can be hurtful and, uh, and I, 00:12:49.917 --> 00:12:51.687 anyway, it's not a sad book. 00:12:52.377 --> 00:12:56.337 It's just, it's a a, it's a factual book. 00:12:56.517 --> 00:12:59.547 Took me a long time, uh, to write. 00:13:00.117 --> 00:13:01.857 Um oh. 00:13:02.382 --> 00:13:06.312 And then, um, I have, uh, another one coming out. 00:13:06.942 --> 00:13:11.862 Um, it's the, the next one's gonna be fiction and it's about 00:13:11.952 --> 00:13:17.922 a dog, um, that I write in the first book, uh, chapter seven, 00:13:19.727 --> 00:13:22.692 Anke: you know how to tease right now we have to get the first book 00:13:22.692 --> 00:13:24.222 to understand the second one, right? 00:13:25.542 --> 00:13:29.532 Vivian: No, uh, the second one is, um, it's on pet loss. 00:13:30.327 --> 00:13:34.047 Oh, mm, because, um, there I go again. 00:13:34.467 --> 00:13:39.477 I don't mean to get sad, but, uh, the, uh, one of the dogs, uh, all of 00:13:39.477 --> 00:13:43.467 the dogs, I fell in love with all of the dogs, people I fell in love with. 00:13:43.467 --> 00:13:44.667 They're all wonderful. 00:13:46.032 --> 00:13:51.067 Uh, but, uh, this one dog, uh, ended up, um, with cancer, uh, uh, 00:13:51.372 --> 00:13:54.552 Cammy older dog, nine years old. 00:13:54.552 --> 00:13:59.202 She lived, uh, it talk, the, the second book talks about her journey, uh, 00:13:59.232 --> 00:14:01.452 from a puppy mill to a loving home. 00:14:01.602 --> 00:14:04.452 It talks about building confidence, resilience, and. 00:14:05.217 --> 00:14:07.017 Uh, it's a lovely book. 00:14:07.017 --> 00:14:13.437 I found a beau, a beautiful illustrator in Poland, um, from Poland, um, 00:14:13.647 --> 00:14:15.027 who does all the illustration. 00:14:15.027 --> 00:14:19.407 We collaborated and I, I, I educated her a little bit about the world 00:14:19.407 --> 00:14:23.967 of the dog and body language and she was able to shape it. 00:14:24.057 --> 00:14:25.977 Uh, so it's, I I love it. 00:14:26.247 --> 00:14:26.727 I love it. 00:14:26.727 --> 00:14:27.897 I hope others will too. 00:14:28.017 --> 00:14:31.737 Anyway, so educating people is really important to me. 00:14:31.737 --> 00:14:32.127 Yeah. 00:14:33.462 --> 00:14:34.902 Anke: No, that's, that's beautiful. 00:14:34.902 --> 00:14:40.842 It's, um, I mean, see what, like, what actually sparked me to even start this 00:14:40.842 --> 00:14:45.282 whole podcast and everything was that I saw so many times that people would use, 00:14:46.152 --> 00:14:50.892 like, use looks kind of like, oh, we get a, we get a dog for the kid, right? 00:14:51.132 --> 00:14:54.102 And it's like, oh, you know, it's just as if it was just a toy. 00:14:55.392 --> 00:14:58.962 And then, and then, you know, it's either the dog needs to serve. 00:14:58.962 --> 00:15:00.282 I mean, that's, I don't know. 00:15:00.822 --> 00:15:04.332 I always think where I come from in Germany, it's not that extreme, but 00:15:04.332 --> 00:15:05.952 in Spain it certainly is, right? 00:15:06.192 --> 00:15:12.342 So the dog's either a toy for the kids or it's like a, a like guardian or 00:15:12.342 --> 00:15:14.442 it, or it's an emotional support dog. 00:15:14.442 --> 00:15:17.382 Like there's almost like it's a tool or it's a toy. 00:15:17.487 --> 00:15:18.782 Right, right. 00:15:19.257 --> 00:15:24.867 I never really felt that really that it appreciated the wisdom they have 00:15:24.867 --> 00:15:26.787 and how much they have to teach us. 00:15:27.177 --> 00:15:30.147 You know, and I love, I love how you come at this to sort of say, well 00:15:30.147 --> 00:15:32.877 actually you help if you understand. 00:15:34.167 --> 00:15:37.797 If you take a minute to try and look at the world through the eyes of 00:15:37.797 --> 00:15:41.247 a dog, you know you're never gonna look at the world the same again. 00:15:42.597 --> 00:15:43.467 Vivian: And you know what? 00:15:43.467 --> 00:15:46.347 An it also helps us. 00:15:46.932 --> 00:15:51.972 To understand other people, our animals, our animal friends, understanding. 00:15:51.972 --> 00:15:56.532 And that's something that was a revelation for me as well when I began 00:15:56.532 --> 00:16:01.842 to, you know, take a step back and, uh. 00:16:02.682 --> 00:16:06.222 Understand what the dog was saying and how they were feeling based 00:16:06.222 --> 00:16:07.842 on what they were presenting. 00:16:09.042 --> 00:16:13.812 It then transfers to our under, looking at other people, right, and 00:16:13.812 --> 00:16:16.902 saying, okay, wait a minute, maybe that person's having a ha hard day. 00:16:16.902 --> 00:16:20.592 This person that cuts me off or yells at me or. 00:16:21.112 --> 00:16:24.802 You know, what is the underlying, it's, what is the underlying reason 00:16:24.802 --> 00:16:29.902 why, you know, taking that step back and saying why, why, what could it be? 00:16:29.902 --> 00:16:30.202 Right? 00:16:30.202 --> 00:16:33.412 And giving people more of a be benefit of the doubt, just as we should 00:16:33.412 --> 00:16:35.122 with our animal friends, right? 00:16:35.127 --> 00:16:35.217 Mm-hmm. 00:16:35.632 --> 00:16:38.512 And you know, it's interesting that you talk about the toys, 00:16:40.852 --> 00:16:46.972 uh, that, that people, and they do, they commodify our animals. 00:16:46.972 --> 00:16:49.672 And this is, this is something I talk about as well, and. 00:16:50.907 --> 00:16:55.917 Um, you know, I understand people have to make a living and they get desperate 00:16:55.917 --> 00:17:01.647 and, you know, they start breeding dogs in the backyard and they're selling 'em and, 00:17:02.817 --> 00:17:06.147 but, uh, or they gift a dog to a child. 00:17:06.147 --> 00:17:12.357 And, um, and unfortunately even with our toys, right? 00:17:12.687 --> 00:17:14.217 Um, I'm kind of, I don't mean to. 00:17:15.882 --> 00:17:19.752 Go, go, um, talk about many, many things right here, but I'm, 00:17:19.812 --> 00:17:24.762 I'm thinking about even our toys that we give children, right? 00:17:24.762 --> 00:17:28.302 That the little dog and they're squeezing and they're holding and they're pulling. 00:17:28.302 --> 00:17:31.152 And so this is the way we introduce our animals to our 00:17:31.152 --> 00:17:34.242 dogs, which is not, is not right. 00:17:36.267 --> 00:17:39.927 When the per, when this young child grows a little bit older, or maybe, 00:17:40.107 --> 00:17:44.787 you know, maybe even as a young child, then they're gifted a, a dog. 00:17:44.787 --> 00:17:48.597 They're, they're treating the dog like a toy. 00:17:48.777 --> 00:17:52.107 They're mishandling the dog and then dogs have teeth. 00:17:53.007 --> 00:17:53.247 Anke: Right. 00:17:53.247 --> 00:17:53.547 Exactly. 00:17:53.547 --> 00:17:53.637 And 00:17:54.207 --> 00:17:54.867 Vivian: then it's always 00:17:54.867 --> 00:17:56.157 Anke: the fault of the dog. 00:17:56.157 --> 00:17:56.517 Right, 00:17:56.937 --> 00:17:57.357 Vivian: right. 00:17:57.537 --> 00:17:59.997 But then also the parents. 00:18:00.882 --> 00:18:06.252 And, and I understand this, they wanna have, you know, in terms of, um, families, 00:18:06.672 --> 00:18:11.292 you know, especially here in the United States and in, we in Western cultures, 00:18:11.292 --> 00:18:18.012 we're seeing more and more dogs are part of the family and, um, accepted 00:18:18.012 --> 00:18:19.992 into the family and I appreciate that. 00:18:20.082 --> 00:18:26.082 But I think the pendulum is going too much to the right, in my opinion. 00:18:26.982 --> 00:18:28.302 Um, that. 00:18:29.532 --> 00:18:32.292 You know, dogs are called siblings and brothers. 00:18:32.292 --> 00:18:38.472 And, um, and, and then the reason why we, we just maybe, maybe wanna. 00:18:38.907 --> 00:18:46.497 Take a step back is because when we think of our animal friends as uh, a brother 00:18:46.497 --> 00:18:51.117 or sister, a biological brother, and we know as adults, they are not, but 00:18:51.117 --> 00:18:53.217 a child doesn't, they're fantastical. 00:18:53.217 --> 00:18:53.697 Right. 00:18:54.147 --> 00:18:54.207 Um. 00:18:55.322 --> 00:19:00.422 And we might also, uh, drop our defenses, right? 00:19:00.512 --> 00:19:02.012 And may not supervise. 00:19:02.342 --> 00:19:07.262 And then the child might toss with the dog and pull the dog or bite the dog, 00:19:07.262 --> 00:19:09.242 and then the dog doesn't wanna bite. 00:19:09.272 --> 00:19:12.452 But, you know, everyone has a limit. 00:19:13.202 --> 00:19:18.572 So there's a lot that can go wrong, um, uh, when we bring two 00:19:18.572 --> 00:19:21.812 different species together, right? 00:19:21.812 --> 00:19:22.952 Without, and there's a lot that goes 00:19:22.952 --> 00:19:23.312 Anke: right. 00:19:23.697 --> 00:19:24.117 Yeah. 00:19:24.117 --> 00:19:28.167 You know, but I think without that level of respect to, to, you know, I 00:19:28.167 --> 00:19:31.857 think it is a beautiful opportunity if you get a dog for a child. 00:19:31.857 --> 00:19:33.507 It's a beautiful opportunity. 00:19:33.837 --> 00:19:38.877 You know, I've had encounters that were horrible where I'm thinking, 00:19:38.877 --> 00:19:42.267 well, I'm doing this education here that you parents over there were not 00:19:42.267 --> 00:19:46.437 even looking, should have done, you know, when little kids would come and 00:19:46.437 --> 00:19:48.957 like just, oh my kind of pounce on. 00:19:52.152 --> 00:19:56.502 Yeah, no, I wasn't friendly, you know, but, uh, at the, the same time, 00:19:56.502 --> 00:19:59.772 you know, there was a particular incident, incident, I remember that 00:19:59.772 --> 00:20:01.392 little boy was maybe five years old. 00:20:01.392 --> 00:20:03.042 Like you could really tell in that little face. 00:20:03.042 --> 00:20:04.092 Nobody had told him that. 00:20:04.452 --> 00:20:08.772 Like nobody had told him that he cannot just kind of pounce on a dog, you know? 00:20:08.772 --> 00:20:12.552 And so, but at the same time, sometimes you meet little kids 00:20:12.552 --> 00:20:17.532 that have such a way and so gentle and so you can tell they grew up. 00:20:17.532 --> 00:20:19.002 So it's a beautiful opportunity. 00:20:19.707 --> 00:20:21.477 You know, to introduce them, right? 00:20:21.477 --> 00:20:24.657 And to teach them from this really young age of how to 00:20:24.657 --> 00:20:27.027 respect another being, you know? 00:20:27.027 --> 00:20:27.537 I agree. 00:20:27.537 --> 00:20:30.447 And so I think there's a lot of opportunity and there's a 00:20:30.447 --> 00:20:33.162 lot of ways it can go home, you know, when you sort of I agree. 00:20:33.447 --> 00:20:34.227 Vivian: I agree. 00:20:34.647 --> 00:20:39.717 We, um, at the center we have an educational initiative, the 00:20:39.717 --> 00:20:45.237 CCBS Center for Canine Behavior Studies, and we are, um, producing 00:20:45.717 --> 00:20:48.057 animated videos for children. 00:20:49.077 --> 00:20:54.087 Yeah, we, we are now on our second, the first one is Pause to Prevent. 00:20:54.567 --> 00:21:00.027 Um, and the second one that we're working on is, um, let Sleeping Dogs Lie, and 00:21:00.027 --> 00:21:04.377 they're just little vignettes, uh, but they're designed for young children. 00:21:05.502 --> 00:21:08.742 Uh, and their parents to understand body language and 00:21:08.742 --> 00:21:10.332 understand the idea of respect. 00:21:10.332 --> 00:21:12.432 And everyone has a personal bubble. 00:21:13.302 --> 00:21:15.792 Uh, everyone meaning all animals, right? 00:21:15.792 --> 00:21:17.832 Human, dog, cat. 00:21:18.672 --> 00:21:19.662 Uh, and that 00:21:19.752 --> 00:21:22.842 Anke: should go into schools, you know, that should be mandatory in schools. 00:21:22.847 --> 00:21:22.897 Yeah. 00:21:23.142 --> 00:21:23.517 You know, it's 00:21:23.517 --> 00:21:24.162 Vivian: free. 00:21:24.162 --> 00:21:29.112 They're, it's, it's, it's a, it's a free resource and we, um, we've 00:21:29.112 --> 00:21:31.332 connected with like the A VMA. 00:21:31.827 --> 00:21:35.907 Um, uh, a lot of pediatricians are asking for it. 00:21:35.907 --> 00:21:40.737 So we're, we are trying to get the word out and, uh, and that, um, so 00:21:40.737 --> 00:21:46.857 we have, uh, the free videos and then also coloring books that are 00:21:46.857 --> 00:21:50.697 associated with it's, you know, so we're gonna be, we're producing that. 00:21:50.697 --> 00:21:55.257 There's a series of 10 and then the sec we're also working on, um. 00:21:55.847 --> 00:21:59.177 Artificial reality applications again. 00:21:59.717 --> 00:22:06.647 Um, we've got a, a, a really talented, um, designer on, on, on our team that 00:22:06.647 --> 00:22:12.767 is, um, working, um, again, be bite smart and moving it into the digital tech. 00:22:12.767 --> 00:22:15.947 That digital technology, which will be for a little old, you know, 00:22:15.947 --> 00:22:19.037 older, um, people or older children. 00:22:20.122 --> 00:22:20.442 I love that. 00:22:20.442 --> 00:22:20.682 Yeah. 00:22:20.742 --> 00:22:22.187 So I 00:22:22.187 --> 00:22:22.757 Anke: love that we're, we're all 00:22:22.757 --> 00:22:23.327 Vivian: trying. 00:22:23.832 --> 00:22:24.252 Anke: Yeah. 00:22:24.252 --> 00:22:25.782 And I think it is about education. 00:22:25.782 --> 00:22:29.862 I've always said like this whole, you know, dogs needing rescue and all 00:22:29.862 --> 00:22:34.632 this, like, nothing will fundamentally change until a new generation 00:22:34.632 --> 00:22:35.922 is taught something different. 00:22:36.432 --> 00:22:36.762 You know? 00:22:36.762 --> 00:22:41.232 So I think it's like, it's that children need to be taught something different. 00:22:41.627 --> 00:22:42.407 For that to change. 00:22:42.407 --> 00:22:42.497 Right. 00:22:42.647 --> 00:22:45.977 You know, so there's always the bandaid and there's always people kind of 00:22:45.977 --> 00:22:47.867 helping right there in the front lines. 00:22:47.867 --> 00:22:52.637 But also the root of it is like that attitude towards animals. 00:22:52.637 --> 00:22:56.477 It's, oh, they just kind of like need to serve me or they, you know, it's 00:22:56.477 --> 00:23:00.467 like that needs to be replaced with something, you know, much more respectful. 00:23:00.467 --> 00:23:00.827 I agree. 00:23:02.287 --> 00:23:03.037 Vivian: I agree. 00:23:03.042 --> 00:23:03.122 I agree. 00:23:03.122 --> 00:23:04.082 And I love that you're 00:23:04.082 --> 00:23:05.737 Anke: kind of working in that, in that direction. 00:23:05.737 --> 00:23:09.907 So where can people go and find out more about your books and about that, the 00:23:09.907 --> 00:23:12.442 initiative and, you know, and about you? 00:23:13.447 --> 00:23:14.047 Sure, sure. 00:23:14.617 --> 00:23:17.197 Vivian: If they go to vivian zo.com, 00:23:17.857 --> 00:23:22.207 they'll, there's information about my books, there's information about the 00:23:22.207 --> 00:23:26.857 Center for Canine Behavior Studies or be Bite Smart and, uh, that'll, 00:23:26.947 --> 00:23:30.577 that'll take them where they need to go. 00:23:31.767 --> 00:23:33.717 Anke: We'll obviously pop that if you're just listening, if you're 00:23:33.717 --> 00:23:37.017 just driving and listening, it's in the show notes and it's definitely 00:23:37.287 --> 00:23:41.517 right below wherever you're watching this or, or, or, or listening to it. 00:23:41.637 --> 00:23:42.927 So thank you so much. 00:23:43.377 --> 00:23:44.637 It's absolutely delightful. 00:23:44.637 --> 00:23:45.957 You have such a calm presence. 00:23:45.957 --> 00:23:49.947 It's real joy to hang out with you, so I'm very much enjoyed it. 00:23:49.947 --> 00:23:50.337 Thank you. 00:23:50.997 --> 00:23:51.722 Vivian: Thank you dear. 00:23:52.830 --> 00:23:54.060 Thanks so much for listening. 00:23:54.580 --> 00:23:58.880 If you enjoyed the episode, don't forget to subscribe, and leave a review so 00:23:58.980 --> 00:24:00.760 other dog lovers can find the show. 00:24:01.550 --> 00:24:05.040 If you haven't already, head over to soul touched by dogs. 00:24:05.470 --> 00:24:11.040 com and sign up for weekly doggy cuteness tips, recommendations, and personal 00:24:11.140 --> 00:24:13.510 stories to warm your dog loving heart. 00:24:13.510 --> 00:24:17.240 And if you know a pawsome human you think I should interview, 00:24:17.660 --> 00:24:18.800 I'd love an introduction. 00:24:19.280 --> 00:24:21.110 Email me at Anke. 00:24:21.380 --> 00:24:25.615 That's A N k E at Soul touched by dogs.com.