WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:10.431 --> 00:00:11.571 Colin: Welcome to build and learn. 00:00:11.571 --> 00:00:12.441 My name is Colin. 00:00:12.771 --> 00:00:13.521 CJ Avilla: and I'm CJ. 00:00:13.521 --> 00:00:18.051 And today we're talking about PTO taking time off and trying to relax. 00:00:18.051 --> 00:00:21.741 I don't know, vacation a little bit, so yeah, it'll be, this is, 00:00:21.771 --> 00:00:25.911 this is an interesting topic because I think especially in tech and 00:00:25.911 --> 00:00:30.771 especially as software engineers, We're we're bad at taking time off. 00:00:31.041 --> 00:00:31.371 I don't know. 00:00:31.371 --> 00:00:32.061 At least I am. 00:00:32.061 --> 00:00:32.361 What about you? 00:00:33.306 --> 00:00:37.476 Colin: Yeah, this is a double edged sword one because you know, tech workers, you 00:00:37.481 --> 00:00:39.886 hear that have these amazing benefits. 00:00:40.426 --> 00:00:43.980 But I think it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy where it's like, we're gonna give 00:00:43.980 --> 00:00:49.740 you in some cases, unlimited PTO or more PTO than most jobs have even, you know, 00:00:49.740 --> 00:00:51.450 four, six weeks, something like that. 00:00:51.955 --> 00:00:53.875 And yet people still don't take it. 00:00:53.875 --> 00:00:58.075 So, you know, or if they do, they're like still on slack and still checking 00:00:58.075 --> 00:01:03.265 in cuz they feel like they're the lifeblood of either a project or a team. 00:01:03.745 --> 00:01:08.155 And we're gonna break down a little bit about how to avoid that because I 00:01:08.160 --> 00:01:09.325 think you should take some time off. 00:01:09.891 --> 00:01:14.297 And I think you're taking some time off, which is a good segue into this. 00:01:14.572 --> 00:01:14.932 CJ Avilla: Yeah. 00:01:14.932 --> 00:01:16.552 So today I'm technically off 00:01:17.837 --> 00:01:19.037 Colin: Well, we don't get paid for this. 00:01:19.037 --> 00:01:19.247 Right? 00:01:19.247 --> 00:01:20.177 So this isn't work. 00:01:20.197 --> 00:01:20.497 CJ Avilla: Yeah. 00:01:20.497 --> 00:01:22.337 So it's a, it's a Thursday. 00:01:22.672 --> 00:01:24.352 So I'm taking Thursday, Friday off this week. 00:01:24.742 --> 00:01:28.705 We're if you're listening in the future right now, it is the middle 00:01:28.705 --> 00:01:33.625 of July and our kids are having their last few days of summer camp. 00:01:33.725 --> 00:01:36.275 This week, and then they're gonna be sort of at home until 00:01:36.275 --> 00:01:37.865 school starts in late August. 00:01:38.225 --> 00:01:41.315 So I'm taking today and tomorrow and hanging out with Nicole. 00:01:41.345 --> 00:01:45.485 So we're, we're kind of just like gonna spend some time with like free daycare. 00:01:46.085 --> 00:01:50.581 I So that's yeah, that's the how I'm wrapping up this this week 00:01:50.581 --> 00:01:51.931 and having a long weekend, but, 00:01:52.236 --> 00:01:52.716 Colin: Nice. 00:01:52.776 --> 00:01:55.926 Do you, do you usually do like long weekends when you take time 00:01:55.926 --> 00:01:59.196 off have, or do you like to take like a week off all at once? 00:01:59.556 --> 00:02:05.602 We have a lot of Europeans in our company that take off like three weeks to a month. 00:02:06.079 --> 00:02:08.419 It's, you know, in some cities. 00:02:09.144 --> 00:02:11.244 August is when the city shuts down. 00:02:11.934 --> 00:02:15.294 you're a local and it's just, you know, cultural and you see the jokes 00:02:15.294 --> 00:02:19.674 about how, like, you know, someone's taking time off to go get a suntan. 00:02:19.704 --> 00:02:22.794 And then in America they're taking time off to go get a surgery or something like 00:02:22.799 --> 00:02:23.034 that. 00:02:23.034 --> 00:02:26.994 And it's, it's a stark reality that people are using that, you know, instead 00:02:26.994 --> 00:02:28.374 of sick days and things like that. 00:02:28.374 --> 00:02:29.138 But yeah. 00:02:29.138 --> 00:02:30.038 What does that look like for you? 00:02:30.038 --> 00:02:33.218 Do you prefer to like use 'em for lots of long weekends? 00:02:33.218 --> 00:02:37.088 Or do you end up taking like a long week when you need to longer? 00:02:37.093 --> 00:02:37.928 If, if necess. 00:02:38.493 --> 00:02:42.603 CJ Avilla: So I think for most of my career, I've done the long weekend. 00:02:43.006 --> 00:02:47.836 . And also maybe we should like sort of Pret preface or like prefix all of this entire 00:02:47.836 --> 00:02:52.456 discussion with like, we are incredibly privileged to have any paid time off. 00:02:52.636 --> 00:02:56.746 like the fact that we work jobs, where we get paid money to like, not go to 00:02:56.746 --> 00:03:01.036 work for some set of time, as a benefit of tech is like incredibly awesome. 00:03:01.424 --> 00:03:01.647 But yeah. 00:03:01.647 --> 00:03:04.437 So back back, back back to the main question, right? 00:03:04.437 --> 00:03:05.247 Like, yeah. 00:03:05.247 --> 00:03:05.830 I take time. 00:03:05.830 --> 00:03:07.630 Either in the form of a long weekend. 00:03:08.052 --> 00:03:13.452 Recently I guess in June I took, I did take a full week off, which was amazing. 00:03:13.542 --> 00:03:15.132 And so yeah. 00:03:15.132 --> 00:03:15.492 I don't know, 00:03:15.522 --> 00:03:17.242 Colin: More of that, more of that CJ 00:03:17.502 --> 00:03:18.432 CJ Avilla: yes, I know. 00:03:18.437 --> 00:03:22.651 I know I've got at one week coming in, in October, we're 00:03:22.651 --> 00:03:24.331 gonna go to Dominican Republic. 00:03:24.720 --> 00:03:27.045 Never been I'm super, super excited. 00:03:27.045 --> 00:03:30.045 And I think I'm actually gonna take a week plus like a couple of days, 00:03:30.375 --> 00:03:33.975 Colin: Yeah, you're gonna need to, well, I guess it's closer for you to fly to 00:03:33.975 --> 00:03:36.255 now, but for me it was a gnarly flight. 00:03:36.315 --> 00:03:39.735 We went literally a week before the pandemic happened, 00:03:40.725 --> 00:03:42.015 so you're gonna like it. 00:03:42.015 --> 00:03:43.005 I think it's a fun 00:03:43.020 --> 00:03:46.150 CJ Avilla: Yeah, it's we're super excited to go. 00:03:46.510 --> 00:03:48.243 We planned it months and months ago. 00:03:48.573 --> 00:03:52.189 But what was, what I was thinking of was like, okay. 00:03:52.849 --> 00:03:58.129 One of the main reasons for PTO in general is to like avoid burning out right into 00:03:58.134 --> 00:04:00.469 like actually recharge and whatever. 00:04:00.489 --> 00:04:00.769 And. 00:04:01.414 --> 00:04:05.914 I am kind of like questioning how long is the minimum amount of time that 00:04:05.914 --> 00:04:10.204 you need to be out of the office or offline or unplugged or off the grid 00:04:10.684 --> 00:04:15.424 in order to actually feel recharged and to avoid burnout successfully. 00:04:15.424 --> 00:04:20.464 And so I think a week is great, but also it seems like burnout 00:04:20.464 --> 00:04:22.864 is one of those things that sort of just accumulates, right. 00:04:22.864 --> 00:04:28.054 It kind of just builds up and has this residual effect where, you know, for a 00:04:28.054 --> 00:04:32.899 long time, There were years where I went without taking any significant time off, 00:04:32.899 --> 00:04:37.759 like maybe long weekend, but no, there was no way that I took an entire week off. 00:04:38.209 --> 00:04:38.809 Colin: Why was that? 00:04:39.330 --> 00:04:39.570 CJ Avilla: yeah. 00:04:39.570 --> 00:04:41.940 So I guess if we we could talk 00:04:42.000 --> 00:04:43.290 Colin: gonna have a little therapy session here. 00:04:43.380 --> 00:04:44.880 CJ Avilla: Yeah, we're gonna have a little bit of, we're gonna have 00:04:44.880 --> 00:04:47.910 a little bit of a conversation here about unlimited time off. 00:04:48.390 --> 00:04:48.780 Right. 00:04:48.780 --> 00:04:53.610 And so in my experience, the companies that I have worked for that 00:04:53.610 --> 00:04:57.780 had an unlimited time off policy, I never took any time off ever. 00:04:58.260 --> 00:04:59.190 So this 00:04:59.460 --> 00:05:01.200 Colin: And the statistics would back you up on 00:05:01.200 --> 00:05:01.470 that. 00:05:01.470 --> 00:05:05.095 Like there's been a lot of reports that prove that, and there's a lot 00:05:05.095 --> 00:05:08.095 of debating about whether it's good or bad to have unlimited time off. 00:05:08.755 --> 00:05:11.415 There's a little bit of a weird nuance here where. 00:05:12.025 --> 00:05:16.945 I don't think it's being done in a mischievous way, but there's this thing 00:05:16.945 --> 00:05:21.445 in the United States where if you don't accrue PTO like a normal, like you get a 00:05:21.445 --> 00:05:25.105 certain number of hours per pay period, then the company doesn't have to pay 00:05:25.105 --> 00:05:27.145 you back for unused time when you leave. 00:05:27.527 --> 00:05:30.959 A little, I don't think that companies are like being that nefarious about this. 00:05:30.964 --> 00:05:34.019 It's more of, they wanna just not have to worry about it. 00:05:34.019 --> 00:05:37.019 Like I still have to record when I'm going to just so we have a 00:05:37.019 --> 00:05:41.501 record of it, but it's more of like, we have a minimum, not a maximum 00:05:42.071 --> 00:05:45.100 And that might be a perk for a company that they don't have to pay it off back. 00:05:45.130 --> 00:05:48.550 I'm not sure, but the problem there is, then you need to make sure you use it. 00:05:48.550 --> 00:05:52.840 And so if you were going and not using your PTO, like, I guess what were the 00:05:52.840 --> 00:05:57.640 reasons why you didn't do it then if you technically had it, the whole team had 00:05:57.645 --> 00:05:59.200 it, but then no one was taking time off. 00:06:00.020 --> 00:06:03.290 CJ Avilla: So it also like, it, it wasn't, there were some people on 00:06:03.290 --> 00:06:07.940 the team that did take time off, but I was absolutely like, I felt, I, I 00:06:07.940 --> 00:06:12.170 think I felt a lot of guilt around like leaving the team kind of, you 00:06:12.170 --> 00:06:14.060 know, shorthanded and short staffed. 00:06:14.510 --> 00:06:17.960 I would feel guilty about taking a significant chunk. 00:06:17.960 --> 00:06:20.510 So I felt more comfortable being like, oh yeah, we have 00:06:20.510 --> 00:06:21.740 an unlimited time off policy. 00:06:21.740 --> 00:06:23.570 Let me take three long weekends this year. 00:06:23.960 --> 00:06:25.310 , you know, like that felt 00:06:25.325 --> 00:06:27.995 Colin: generous, how generous of you yourself? 00:06:28.520 --> 00:06:29.000 CJ Avilla: Yeah. 00:06:29.180 --> 00:06:32.600 And so there were several companies that I worked for all startups too, 00:06:32.600 --> 00:06:37.100 where it was kind of like everyone was working way more than 40 hours. 00:06:37.100 --> 00:06:40.880 Everyone was just kind of like working super, super hard to try to make this 00:06:41.330 --> 00:06:48.230 company a success and in order to do so, we were all hustling and it felt, yeah, 00:06:48.230 --> 00:06:49.430 it felt like you were leaving the team. 00:06:50.000 --> 00:06:54.350 Letting the team down, if you took time off, which was just it's, it's horrible. 00:06:54.350 --> 00:06:55.820 And I don't recommend it. 00:06:56.645 --> 00:06:57.155 Colin: Yeah. 00:06:57.380 --> 00:06:58.310 CJ Avilla: yeah, I mean, if you 00:06:58.325 --> 00:06:59.495 Colin: that's a cultural problem. 00:06:59.495 --> 00:07:03.771 I think like startups need a sense of urgency for sure. 00:07:04.424 --> 00:07:07.004 But you need to be rest like a rested racehorse. 00:07:07.004 --> 00:07:10.214 Like you need to be able to go, but then you need to rest, like you're not 00:07:10.214 --> 00:07:11.684 running the racehorse into the ground. 00:07:12.389 --> 00:07:16.194 And I know we can get into like, there's a lot of privilege, like you mentioned here 00:07:16.734 --> 00:07:18.594 of being able to race in the first place. 00:07:18.624 --> 00:07:18.984 Right. 00:07:19.074 --> 00:07:22.314 But if we keep the race metaphor up, like it's a marathon, not a sprint. 00:07:22.734 --> 00:07:25.944 And you need to be able to take time off so that when you are on work, 00:07:25.944 --> 00:07:32.004 you're not completely undone by small inconvenience that you're stressed. 00:07:32.064 --> 00:07:35.094 And so some small thing happens in your life that then, or maybe lots 00:07:35.099 --> 00:07:36.384 of big things happen in your life. 00:07:36.744 --> 00:07:40.884 And it completely, you know, GLS you, which I has happened to me when I've 00:07:40.889 --> 00:07:44.244 been a freelancer, cuz time off in a Lance world is like a whole nother. 00:07:44.829 --> 00:07:49.509 Thing, because you get paid by the time that you work and worse is a salaried 00:07:49.509 --> 00:07:54.247 job where PTO is an amazing convenience, because you're still paid to take 00:07:54.252 --> 00:07:56.947 that time off and you don't have to be doing the work during that time. 00:07:57.427 --> 00:08:00.997 So like when some of your teammates would take off, was there 00:08:00.997 --> 00:08:02.377 anything that you guys had to do? 00:08:02.382 --> 00:08:05.287 Like, were there repercussions of like, did you feel it, that 00:08:05.287 --> 00:08:06.307 they were taking time off? 00:08:06.307 --> 00:08:10.357 And so then you didn't want to do that to somebody else or was it in your head? 00:08:10.537 --> 00:08:13.317 And, you know, the company was fine when those people took. 00:08:14.062 --> 00:08:15.862 CJ Avilla: I think part of it was in my head. 00:08:15.892 --> 00:08:17.512 A lot of it was in my head and. 00:08:18.562 --> 00:08:23.212 One of the things that I think we'll get into is that when you actually take time 00:08:23.212 --> 00:08:30.554 off, it is a good forcing function to have really great things that are in place 00:08:30.559 --> 00:08:32.624 so that you can safely take time off. 00:08:33.198 --> 00:08:36.817 So that your team can do all of the things that you were doing without you. 00:08:36.947 --> 00:08:37.147 There. 00:08:37.509 --> 00:08:39.201 I know there's like the, the bus factor, right? 00:08:39.201 --> 00:08:42.891 Like if you're the only who knows how to do X, Y, or Z, like that's a bad 00:08:42.891 --> 00:08:46.611 thing because maybe on your one day of PTO that year you get hit by a bus and 00:08:46.611 --> 00:08:52.065 then no one knows how to restart some weird service or something, you know or 00:08:52.185 --> 00:08:53.685 Colin: Even if you don't get hit by a bus, right. 00:08:53.685 --> 00:08:55.305 You might be completely off grid 00:08:55.725 --> 00:08:58.935 and the server's down and no one knows how to restart it by you. 00:08:59.085 --> 00:08:59.445 Right. 00:08:59.865 --> 00:09:01.455 That, that, that would be a problem. 00:09:01.455 --> 00:09:05.895 And so I even say like, what happens if this employee leaves, right? 00:09:05.955 --> 00:09:07.875 It's more of it. 00:09:07.875 --> 00:09:11.535 It's gonna shine a light on all the things that whether culturally, or 00:09:11.535 --> 00:09:15.375 even literally technically like better docs, better socializing of concepts. 00:09:15.375 --> 00:09:16.605 I am guilty of this too. 00:09:16.610 --> 00:09:19.965 Like I would do the long weekend thing and. 00:09:20.415 --> 00:09:25.035 Just, you know, make sure that every, like I might even stay up late the night before 00:09:25.035 --> 00:09:27.045 I leave, which is like the worst thing. 00:09:27.593 --> 00:09:31.583 And I will even say like, usually I used to do PTO for trips. 00:09:32.003 --> 00:09:38.663 I'm now all about the PTO where I stay home and just take care of life. 00:09:38.783 --> 00:09:39.263 CJ Avilla: Totally. 00:09:39.353 --> 00:09:39.653 Yeah. 00:09:39.653 --> 00:09:43.673 I think like my manager has been really good at kind of mentoring and 00:09:43.673 --> 00:09:48.323 advising in terms of taking time off to, for a family, like for your family. 00:09:48.743 --> 00:09:51.773 And so self-care is super important, right? 00:09:51.773 --> 00:09:53.903 You want to be firing on all cylinders, but also. 00:09:54.793 --> 00:09:59.713 Especially when you're in this startup, like really scrappy mode, it can be 00:09:59.713 --> 00:10:04.963 easy to let your relationships maybe like, yeah, like your, with your 00:10:04.963 --> 00:10:08.460 spouse or maybe your relationships with your children kind of go 00:10:08.460 --> 00:10:09.720 on the back burner a little bit. 00:10:09.720 --> 00:10:14.520 And so taking pay time off where they are, the focus can be really valuable 00:10:14.640 --> 00:10:18.930 in terms of just like maintaining your own sort of family life and parental 00:10:18.930 --> 00:10:20.580 and marriage and all of those things. 00:10:20.580 --> 00:10:22.620 So like there's definitely benefits to. 00:10:23.670 --> 00:10:25.010 Yeah, like just taking time off. 00:10:25.630 --> 00:10:29.830 Where you don't go somewhere fancy, like you said, but like instead, just hanging 00:10:29.830 --> 00:10:34.360 out at home and playing games with the kids and, you know, going out on dates 00:10:35.049 --> 00:10:38.799 with your spouse or whatever, like those kinds of things can also be really, really 00:10:38.799 --> 00:10:43.239 valuable and also recharging because spending time with your loved ones is 00:10:43.299 --> 00:10:47.679 definitely shown to like, increase your, your gratitude, increase, your positivity 00:10:47.679 --> 00:10:50.109 increase like your overall happiness. 00:10:50.169 --> 00:10:53.679 And that is like a really important, like part of being a whole person too. 00:10:53.999 --> 00:10:54.669 Colin: Totally. 00:10:55.479 --> 00:10:55.659 Yeah. 00:10:55.659 --> 00:10:58.209 And we're going a little outta order and kind of touching on 00:10:58.209 --> 00:10:59.259 things as they come up here. 00:10:59.259 --> 00:11:02.997 But I think we should definitely come back to making sure that you're not 00:11:02.997 --> 00:11:06.717 the blocker for things like things you can do to make sure you take time off. 00:11:06.717 --> 00:11:10.867 I think there's a way to celebrate people taking time off instead of dreading it. 00:11:11.377 --> 00:11:15.602 we have a slack channel where when people either are come back or are 00:11:15.602 --> 00:11:19.892 taking time off, it's almost like a, you know, a celebration that they were gone. 00:11:19.892 --> 00:11:20.822 And what did they do? 00:11:20.822 --> 00:11:22.532 And it's like pictures of their trip or. 00:11:22.942 --> 00:11:23.902 Pictures of their garden. 00:11:23.902 --> 00:11:25.382 They worked on whatever it might be. 00:11:25.802 --> 00:11:28.906 But I really liked this and I can't remember what if it was a book 00:11:28.906 --> 00:11:31.996 or a talk that he gave, but Brad Feld, who's been in startup land 00:11:32.001 --> 00:11:33.466 and investing for a long time. 00:11:33.826 --> 00:11:34.846 He does this thing. 00:11:34.851 --> 00:11:38.476 That's like essential for his mental health and work life balance, which 00:11:38.476 --> 00:11:41.476 is, he works super hard all the time. 00:11:41.596 --> 00:11:45.016 And then he takes off a week, a quarter, which in the grand 00:11:45.016 --> 00:11:46.606 scheme of things is four weeks. 00:11:46.776 --> 00:11:47.126 CJ Avilla: Mm. 00:11:47.876 --> 00:11:49.496 Colin: And he goes completely off grid. 00:11:49.496 --> 00:11:53.276 Only his assistant knows where he is only that they can reach out to him if there's 00:11:53.276 --> 00:11:57.506 like a true fire, no work and one week. 00:11:57.506 --> 00:11:59.846 And you brought this up, like is a week enough? 00:12:01.001 --> 00:12:05.651 I think if you can go completely off grid, you're literally, you know, can't 00:12:05.651 --> 00:12:07.781 go into slack, can't go into GitHub. 00:12:07.991 --> 00:12:08.771 Can't do all that stuff. 00:12:09.281 --> 00:12:12.731 It feels good around the, for me, the four, five day mark is when 00:12:12.731 --> 00:12:15.161 you're like start to like relax. 00:12:15.851 --> 00:12:19.211 And if you're not again, doing like full combat travel in 00:12:19.211 --> 00:12:20.201 Europe or something like that. 00:12:21.086 --> 00:12:22.946 Where you actually can relax you're at home. 00:12:23.306 --> 00:12:24.506 It does take that many days. 00:12:24.506 --> 00:12:26.499 So like, what does it look like to take two weeks off? 00:12:26.919 --> 00:12:28.689 I don't know, what's better here. 00:12:28.689 --> 00:12:33.099 Is it better to take, you know, lots of long weekends, if that fits your lifestyle 00:12:33.104 --> 00:12:35.859 and you're doing lots of like camping and backpacking trips or something, 00:12:36.434 --> 00:12:38.019 it better to take four, one weeks? 00:12:38.019 --> 00:12:42.609 Is it better to take two two-weeks and like have more 00:12:42.609 --> 00:12:44.259 longer lasting type of thing? 00:12:44.469 --> 00:12:47.239 And again, if you have the ability to have unlimited time off. 00:12:47.664 --> 00:12:52.134 What is that, I guess, at what point do, does it not feel unlimited anymore? 00:12:52.134 --> 00:12:56.035 Like you're starting to use up a culturally acceptable upper bound. 00:12:56.500 --> 00:12:56.830 CJ Avilla: Yeah. 00:12:57.470 --> 00:12:59.060 Those are all like, really important habits too. 00:12:59.060 --> 00:12:59.600 I think. 00:12:59.660 --> 00:13:04.430 And the other, another thing that you can do as a team and as a company is 00:13:04.430 --> 00:13:09.530 making sure that leadership is visibly out of office for like a similar 00:13:09.530 --> 00:13:10.940 amount of time, at least, right. 00:13:10.940 --> 00:13:14.640 If leadership is always on and never takes time off, then like 00:13:14.640 --> 00:13:16.080 that's setting the wrong message too. 00:13:16.440 --> 00:13:16.830 Totally. 00:13:17.865 --> 00:13:19.935 Yeah, visibility celebration of it. 00:13:20.620 --> 00:13:23.110 I'd be curious for us to do this as a little experiment. 00:13:23.110 --> 00:13:24.310 I'm happy to volunteer. 00:13:24.324 --> 00:13:28.066 Colin: You know, I've never to my knowledge taken two weeks off, so 00:13:28.296 --> 00:13:28.906 that's 00:13:28.941 --> 00:13:29.751 CJ Avilla: was gonna ask what's 00:13:29.826 --> 00:13:29.976 Colin: yeah. 00:13:30.321 --> 00:13:30.801 CJ Avilla: taken off. 00:13:31.582 --> 00:13:33.347 Colin: Yeah, like intentionally, right. 00:13:33.617 --> 00:13:36.197 We haven't took it on the show, but when I got COVID, that was 00:13:36.197 --> 00:13:37.907 not intentional taking time off. 00:13:38.357 --> 00:13:39.581 That was sick days. 00:13:39.771 --> 00:13:41.182 Plus a work trip. 00:13:41.182 --> 00:13:43.682 So it felt like a vacation, but it ended up being a lot more. 00:13:45.052 --> 00:13:46.282 Extended than I thought it was gonna be. 00:13:46.792 --> 00:13:51.742 So like intentional PTO, probably a week in a, in a weekend. 00:13:51.742 --> 00:13:51.922 Right? 00:13:51.922 --> 00:13:53.857 Like the weekend on either end of that week. 00:13:54.557 --> 00:13:57.557 I think doing it two weeks would be pretty amazing. 00:13:57.557 --> 00:14:01.007 So I guess that puts me in that mindset of okay, if I'm gonna be gone for 00:14:01.012 --> 00:14:07.427 two weeks, what can I do to set up my team now that they don't feel bad? 00:14:07.427 --> 00:14:11.057 We, we men or not feel bad, but like they're set up for success. 00:14:11.492 --> 00:14:16.022 They don't need to come ask me for things or if they do, they're gonna re 00:14:16.112 --> 00:14:17.852 like hold onto them until I get back. 00:14:19.487 --> 00:14:19.787 CJ Avilla: Yeah. 00:14:19.787 --> 00:14:24.647 Is it, is there, are there things that you intentionally hand off or make 00:14:24.652 --> 00:14:25.937 sure that other people are involved? 00:14:27.032 --> 00:14:28.322 Before you leave for a week. 00:14:28.352 --> 00:14:30.362 I mean, the other thing is like a week is just a week, right? 00:14:31.082 --> 00:14:31.322 yeah. 00:14:31.322 --> 00:14:35.042 Maybe if a server goes down or whatever, like some servers, it doesn't 00:14:35.042 --> 00:14:36.212 matter if they're down for a week. 00:14:36.212 --> 00:14:39.302 And like when you get back, you can just kick it and, you know, whatever 00:14:39.302 --> 00:14:41.072 background jobs will catch back up. 00:14:41.077 --> 00:14:42.092 But like, yeah. 00:14:42.257 --> 00:14:43.547 Colin: Thankfully, I'm not worried. 00:14:43.637 --> 00:14:45.257 I'm not, I don't have to touch the servers. 00:14:45.257 --> 00:14:46.397 Like I do deploys. 00:14:46.937 --> 00:14:48.197 So it's like more. 00:14:49.352 --> 00:14:53.702 This is a good lesson of, is there something that's actively being worked on? 00:14:53.762 --> 00:14:58.052 And I think maybe leading up to you going on, on vacation, talking to your 00:14:58.052 --> 00:15:01.862 manager, talking to your team and figuring out if you're gonna be a blocker before 00:15:01.862 --> 00:15:06.542 you leave and not doing this outside of your working hours, but part of 00:15:06.542 --> 00:15:10.892 your job before you leave during your working day, not an additional amount 00:15:10.892 --> 00:15:15.512 of work or labor is to like, just look ahead, work with engineering manager. 00:15:15.512 --> 00:15:16.352 If you have one. 00:15:16.802 --> 00:15:19.502 To see how to pull things off your plate. 00:15:19.502 --> 00:15:23.132 Maybe even a few days before you leave can use those days to 00:15:23.132 --> 00:15:27.212 socialize concepts or ownership of the code, if it needs to happen. 00:15:27.647 --> 00:15:33.256 I've taken to starting a list of things that I'm like if this like, okay, I'm 00:15:33.261 --> 00:15:34.726 the only one who knows how this works. 00:15:34.846 --> 00:15:36.046 Why is that the case? 00:15:36.316 --> 00:15:37.456 How do we fix that? 00:15:38.266 --> 00:15:42.406 And also, do I need to be the one who now needs to do that work? 00:15:42.832 --> 00:15:45.947 Not before I leave, but like, Why is it? 00:15:46.007 --> 00:15:48.407 Why do I have that thought that I'm the only one who can do that work? 00:15:48.467 --> 00:15:52.187 And I think this probably resonates with a lot of developers you might be 00:15:52.187 --> 00:15:53.387 the only one who knows how it works. 00:15:53.437 --> 00:15:53.887 CJ Avilla: Yeah. 00:15:53.977 --> 00:15:54.247 Yeah. 00:15:54.252 --> 00:15:58.777 I think that also, so we're starting to head into territory around just 00:15:59.107 --> 00:16:01.867 good habits and best practices for when you take time off. 00:16:01.872 --> 00:16:04.897 So it sounds like as you're heading into time off, making 00:16:04.897 --> 00:16:06.517 sure that you have good docs. 00:16:07.177 --> 00:16:12.202 Some really clear ownership of who's going to take over while you're away. 00:16:12.772 --> 00:16:13.032 Yeah. 00:16:13.032 --> 00:16:17.472 What I guess, going back to the, the idea of having a list of the 00:16:17.472 --> 00:16:22.212 stuff that you're doing, one of the cultural norms that I've seen work 00:16:22.212 --> 00:16:24.702 really successfully is having a doc. 00:16:25.212 --> 00:16:29.532 That is just a list of all the stuff you're working on and who is going 00:16:29.532 --> 00:16:31.302 to cover that while you're out. 00:16:31.632 --> 00:16:33.270 So that's been kind of like a cool thing. 00:16:33.480 --> 00:16:34.263 Are there other, yeah. 00:16:34.263 --> 00:16:37.876 What are the other sort of best practices you've seen or like tools and tips and 00:16:38.326 --> 00:16:41.296 technology you can use to make sure that you have a successful out of office. 00:16:42.196 --> 00:16:42.616 Colin: Yeah. 00:16:42.616 --> 00:16:45.856 I mean, I think the, if you're not truly off grid, the thing 00:16:45.856 --> 00:16:49.486 that is hard to Dodge is the slack notifications and things like that. 00:16:49.486 --> 00:16:54.106 So setting in away message is great, going away, going in and turning 00:16:54.106 --> 00:16:57.536 off all the notifications on all your devices is, is necessary. 00:16:57.816 --> 00:17:01.056 We teased this on a past episode when I was going outta town, but 00:17:01.056 --> 00:17:06.756 the GitHub away feature is amazing because with slack, if you message me 00:17:06.756 --> 00:17:09.756 it doesn't, I mean, it has a status, but it doesn't say anything to you. 00:17:09.756 --> 00:17:13.881 It's just like, You have to go hover over my status to see that I'm out. 00:17:13.881 --> 00:17:17.661 I gotta pick an emoji that I think is gonna be either, you know, Palm 00:17:17.661 --> 00:17:20.601 trees or something like an X or something that makes it evocative. 00:17:20.601 --> 00:17:27.081 So people know if you mention me in an issue, a PR or commit any of these things, 00:17:27.141 --> 00:17:29.631 GitHub will tell you that I am out. 00:17:30.016 --> 00:17:30.626 CJ Avilla: mm-hmm 00:17:31.056 --> 00:17:32.496 Colin: And it's act proactive. 00:17:32.556 --> 00:17:35.346 They're like, you get to set what the message is. 00:17:35.706 --> 00:17:37.236 You can set a status down GitHub. 00:17:37.236 --> 00:17:40.746 I don't know that many people do that, but there's setting a status and then 00:17:40.746 --> 00:17:43.116 there's this like full on I am away. 00:17:43.536 --> 00:17:46.866 And I think it was maybe designed for like open source 00:17:46.866 --> 00:17:48.546 contributors and things like that. 00:17:48.546 --> 00:17:50.586 CJ Avilla: I mean, it's funny that we're talking about this again. 00:17:50.586 --> 00:17:53.796 I am away and right now, like since we started this call, I 00:17:53.796 --> 00:17:55.626 have four new unreads in slack. 00:17:56.076 --> 00:17:58.356 which I should not even have opened right now, but like 00:17:58.971 --> 00:17:59.601 Colin: Yeah. 00:17:59.601 --> 00:18:01.341 So do you set your away 00:18:02.136 --> 00:18:02.916 CJ Avilla: I set it. 00:18:03.036 --> 00:18:03.486 Yeah. 00:18:03.491 --> 00:18:05.976 It says out of office and still I have four 00:18:05.976 --> 00:18:06.456 unreads 00:18:06.626 --> 00:18:08.571 Colin: do, but is your.off, I guess, cuz there's the 00:18:08.571 --> 00:18:11.331 setting of and then there's set away or active? 00:18:11.331 --> 00:18:11.571 Yeah. 00:18:11.586 --> 00:18:11.826 CJ Avilla: Yeah. 00:18:11.831 --> 00:18:13.416 My dot shows active. 00:18:13.606 --> 00:18:15.916 I would send that to a way still doesn't help. 00:18:15.966 --> 00:18:18.906 So now let's just say it's been a week and you've been gone. 00:18:19.296 --> 00:18:22.656 What is your process for when you come back for triaging? 00:18:23.016 --> 00:18:27.426 What is likely to be a million messages in email, slack, whatever 00:18:27.426 --> 00:18:28.966 internal tools that you have. 00:18:29.581 --> 00:18:31.321 2022-07-28--t04-20-48pm--guest644854--cj-avilla: I always start with slack because 00:18:31.321 --> 00:18:34.981 I assume that the real time communication is gonna be something 00:18:34.981 --> 00:18:37.021 that's someone needed more urgently. 00:18:37.501 --> 00:18:41.281 Then I go to email and if you don't already have this turned on, you can 00:18:41.281 --> 00:18:45.571 go into the E like the Gmail labs feature and enable keyboard shortcuts, 00:18:45.601 --> 00:18:47.131 which I think is a killer feature. 00:18:47.131 --> 00:18:48.361 So you can kind of just use. 00:18:49.046 --> 00:18:53.216 you know, J K to move up and down and then you can mark things. 00:18:53.776 --> 00:18:54.454 I don't even remember. 00:18:54.454 --> 00:18:56.074 I just like have the muscle memory right. 00:18:56.074 --> 00:18:58.984 But the key there's keyboard shortcuts to just like plow through your email 00:18:58.984 --> 00:19:03.364 super quickly finding all the ones that don't matter, deleting those 00:19:03.364 --> 00:19:05.554 and then replying quickly to others. 00:19:06.055 --> 00:19:11.180 But yeah, I think I took, when I took a week in June, it took me at 00:19:11.180 --> 00:19:13.580 least a week to catch back up from. 00:19:14.225 --> 00:19:18.335 Email notifications, slack notifications, GitHub notifications, et cetera. 00:19:18.845 --> 00:19:22.025 Track 1: I'm curious about is whether or not those were even important, right? 00:19:22.025 --> 00:19:23.795 Cause I'm in a lot of slack channels. 00:19:23.795 --> 00:19:25.655 And so they're all lit up when I come back. 00:19:26.105 --> 00:19:29.105 So now it's up to me to triage what was important and that's, that's 00:19:29.105 --> 00:19:32.525 where I think the GitHub away feature thing would be kind of interesting. 00:19:32.525 --> 00:19:34.775 Colin: And again, I'm free idea for an app here, right? 00:19:34.795 --> 00:19:35.145 CJ Avilla: Mm. 00:19:35.455 --> 00:19:39.425 Colin: imagine if you had a true away status in slack, every 00:19:39.425 --> 00:19:40.535 message that's sent to you get. 00:19:41.885 --> 00:19:44.585 maybe they even say like, Hey, CJ's out. 00:19:45.275 --> 00:19:48.785 Do you want me to remind him when he comes back or something? 00:19:48.815 --> 00:19:48.995 Cause 00:19:48.995 --> 00:19:50.555 I don't love this. 00:19:50.560 --> 00:19:54.065 Like, was this important, let me build context for all these things 00:19:54.065 --> 00:19:57.365 that there's, there's a meme out there about PTO, you pay for 00:19:57.365 --> 00:19:58.775 taking time off when you come back. 00:19:59.122 --> 00:20:03.090 I don't know if GitHub does like a little, like here's everything 00:20:03.090 --> 00:20:05.550 you missed since you were out type thing, but that's for you. 00:20:05.730 --> 00:20:07.120 How you can have that one for free too. 00:20:07.150 --> 00:20:11.425 CJ Avilla: The one feature I would call out in slack is that if I am, 00:20:11.815 --> 00:20:16.465 if I'm supposed to be away, but I'm actually online, whether that's in 00:20:16.465 --> 00:20:20.065 slack, on my phone, or I'm just doing other things on my computer, then. 00:20:21.295 --> 00:20:24.595 I, if something is sort of on fire, then I'll probably 00:20:24.595 --> 00:20:26.845 respond to the slack message. 00:20:26.845 --> 00:20:31.075 But if it's not urgent and it can be dealt with, when I get back, then I'll right. 00:20:31.075 --> 00:20:34.525 Click on the message and say, remind me next week. 00:20:34.585 --> 00:20:37.373 And then I'll get like a slack bot reminder next week. 00:20:37.853 --> 00:20:39.754 And then try to plow through all of those. 00:20:39.874 --> 00:20:42.724 I think the other thing is it's probably good hygiene to actually 00:20:42.724 --> 00:20:45.754 just delete the slack app from your phone while you're out. 00:20:45.754 --> 00:20:50.524 And then you won't see that badge counting up as your yeah. 00:20:50.564 --> 00:20:52.004 My manager's like really adamant. 00:20:52.004 --> 00:20:54.944 He's like delete slack and. 00:20:55.514 --> 00:20:57.914 Then if something urgent comes up, he'll just text me. 00:20:58.319 --> 00:21:00.829 Which is I mean, that's like fine, right? 00:21:01.099 --> 00:21:04.519 Like having an emergency way to go around. 00:21:04.579 --> 00:21:05.709 Colin: Like your pager PagerDuty. 00:21:05.709 --> 00:21:06.109 yeah, 00:21:06.324 --> 00:21:06.829 CJ Avilla: exactly. 00:21:06.829 --> 00:21:07.249 Exactly. 00:21:07.249 --> 00:21:08.329 Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. 00:21:08.875 --> 00:21:15.389 So I, I added the topic paternity maternity leave that I think we can 00:21:15.389 --> 00:21:17.159 just spend a, a short amount of time on. 00:21:18.024 --> 00:21:21.804 The reason why I wanted to talk about this was because when I was thinking about what 00:21:21.804 --> 00:21:28.734 is the longest time I've taken off, it was when my second son was born and that was, 00:21:29.064 --> 00:21:32.904 I took one month off and that was paid. 00:21:33.485 --> 00:21:39.047 But for my first child, I had just started a job and I didn't have any. 00:21:39.632 --> 00:21:40.682 Paid time off accrued. 00:21:40.682 --> 00:21:45.002 And so I took seven days unpaid leave for like, that was my 00:21:45.002 --> 00:21:46.712 whole paternity leave for, 00:21:46.802 --> 00:21:48.542 Colin: they assume they didn't have paternity leave. 00:21:49.082 --> 00:21:49.442 CJ Avilla: no. 00:21:49.442 --> 00:21:52.502 Yeah, it was like, I don't, I don't even remember if they had 00:21:52.622 --> 00:21:55.052 paternity leave, but if they did, it was just, it was atrocious. 00:21:55.052 --> 00:21:56.552 So yeah, I think. 00:21:57.612 --> 00:22:02.412 The bigger tech companies, you will find pretty generous paternity 00:22:02.412 --> 00:22:04.272 and maternity leave situation. 00:22:04.272 --> 00:22:07.662 Sometimes you can split it up and take part of it when the baby's first 00:22:07.662 --> 00:22:11.352 born and then take another part of it later when one of the partners goes 00:22:11.352 --> 00:22:13.842 back to work or whatever like that is. 00:22:14.370 --> 00:22:14.860 Yeah. 00:22:15.010 --> 00:22:19.600 So that's, that's definitely something like that feels like a benefit 00:22:19.600 --> 00:22:23.890 that more people take advantage of at bigger companies than at 00:22:23.890 --> 00:22:25.780 startups, just in my experience. 00:22:26.755 --> 00:22:27.295 Colin: Yeah. 00:22:27.355 --> 00:22:30.205 And it's unfortunate that people have to make that like calculus 00:22:30.205 --> 00:22:34.435 of am I gonna go unpaid for a week to even a week is not enough time. 00:22:34.435 --> 00:22:34.705 Right? 00:22:34.705 --> 00:22:38.635 When you're talking about adding to your family and all the things that come up 00:22:38.635 --> 00:22:42.535 with that, and you shouldn't have to use traditional PTO for that either. 00:22:42.540 --> 00:22:46.784 But we we li at least we live in America and that's what it is. 00:22:47.481 --> 00:22:48.051 So. 00:22:48.366 --> 00:22:49.266 Good call out. 00:22:49.326 --> 00:22:53.256 You know, it is part of, I guess, of all the things that you could take time 00:22:53.256 --> 00:22:55.176 off, you have usually paid time off. 00:22:55.236 --> 00:22:58.506 You might have paternity or maternity leave, parental leave. 00:22:59.956 --> 00:23:00.466 2022-07-28--t04-20-48pm--guest644854--cj-avilla: Yes.. 00:23:00.836 --> 00:23:03.975 When I broke my ankle in January I remember. 00:23:04.620 --> 00:23:08.730 Feeling well, after I had sort of pain meds and whatever I was, I was just laying 00:23:08.730 --> 00:23:10.890 in bed, like doing literally nothing. 00:23:10.890 --> 00:23:13.710 And I felt so like, yeah. 00:23:13.715 --> 00:23:18.579 So useless and I was like, I need to be useful somehow. 00:23:18.579 --> 00:23:21.729 And I can be useful if I have my computer and I'm just like doing stuff. 00:23:22.149 --> 00:23:25.899 CJ Avilla: But then I had like one call with my manager and he was 00:23:25.899 --> 00:23:28.659 like, dude, you, there's no way that you should be at work right now. 00:23:28.659 --> 00:23:28.899 Like, 00:23:28.959 --> 00:23:29.439 Colin: right? 00:23:29.529 --> 00:23:29.709 Yeah. 00:23:29.709 --> 00:23:30.999 Like how many pain drugs have you 00:23:31.179 --> 00:23:31.719 CJ Avilla: Exactly. 00:23:31.719 --> 00:23:31.899 Yeah. 00:23:31.899 --> 00:23:35.409 Pain medication and whatever he is like, no, just shut it down and like, 00:23:35.469 --> 00:23:37.149 or like watch a movie or something. 00:23:37.149 --> 00:23:38.619 And so, yeah. 00:23:38.619 --> 00:23:39.819 It's gosh. 00:23:39.849 --> 00:23:40.029 Yeah. 00:23:40.029 --> 00:23:42.399 I think it's, it's so hard. 00:23:42.499 --> 00:23:42.859 Colin: Yeah. 00:23:44.119 --> 00:23:49.530 So in addition to sick leave we have this thing and some others might, but right. 00:23:49.535 --> 00:23:52.050 You've got holidays in addition to those days 00:23:52.670 --> 00:23:53.090 off. 00:23:53.190 --> 00:23:54.930 And then we. 00:23:55.695 --> 00:24:01.335 At orbit, we had a summer and a winter, what we call Refuel week, which was 00:24:01.695 --> 00:24:05.325 a week off in the summer, a week off between Christmas and new year's. 00:24:05.934 --> 00:24:09.131 You know, that kind of lull period of people aren't really 00:24:09.131 --> 00:24:10.151 getting a lot done anyway. 00:24:10.156 --> 00:24:11.345 So let's just give it off. 00:24:11.945 --> 00:24:14.747 We've also experimented with something called like Rocket Days, which was 00:24:14.747 --> 00:24:20.777 more of we're still working, but we're working on all the process 00:24:20.887 --> 00:24:25.742 and stuff that you know, you should incrementally improve every day, but 00:24:25.742 --> 00:24:27.602 we don't always get to those things. 00:24:27.602 --> 00:24:32.372 It's some tech debt pay downs, some process development, some reflection, 00:24:32.372 --> 00:24:36.542 and like retro it's like a retro week or a process improvement type week. 00:24:36.547 --> 00:24:40.982 And so refuel is like truly refuel rest, you know, reenergized 00:24:41.552 --> 00:24:43.082 come back, you know, strong. 00:24:43.712 --> 00:24:46.442 Hard to do with support and 00:24:46.502 --> 00:24:48.242 uptime and stuff like that. 00:24:48.242 --> 00:24:54.392 So we tend to try to like, have some sort of like you're off, but this 00:24:54.392 --> 00:24:57.362 person's watching the queue this day, this day, this day, so forth. 00:24:57.412 --> 00:24:57.742 . CJ Avilla: Yeah. 00:24:57.744 --> 00:24:58.464 When I. 00:24:59.139 --> 00:25:05.889 First joined this company, I was in the support function and during 00:25:05.889 --> 00:25:09.279 the sort of holiday shutdown where many people were out of office, we 00:25:09.279 --> 00:25:12.772 did that thing where it was kind of just like on a volunteer basis. 00:25:13.042 --> 00:25:15.982 Get coverage to make sure that we could still have people online 00:25:15.982 --> 00:25:19.432 to meet our SLAs for anyone who might be writing into support or 00:25:19.432 --> 00:25:21.112 chatting with us on IRC or discord. 00:25:21.772 --> 00:25:26.752 And then when I transitioned from support into developer advocacy, 00:25:27.142 --> 00:25:31.462 I remember being like, oh, this is like, no one has to be around 00:25:31.467 --> 00:25:34.462 technically during this short period. 00:25:34.462 --> 00:25:37.222 And so it's nice that everyone can go and recharge at the same time. 00:25:37.768 --> 00:25:37.918 So. 00:25:40.288 --> 00:25:40.498 Colin: Yeah. 00:25:40.498 --> 00:25:47.038 If you're in that boat and you can volunteer even a few hours to relieve 00:25:47.038 --> 00:25:50.518 a support, you know, function, I think that's helpful cuz unfortunately 00:25:51.118 --> 00:25:52.598 if you're full-time support. 00:25:53.443 --> 00:25:55.873 You, it feels like another day sometimes 00:25:56.173 --> 00:26:00.163 like hopefully ticket volume's gonna be lower, but it'll also just be great 00:26:00.163 --> 00:26:01.946 to have a buddy during that time. 00:26:02.636 --> 00:26:07.209 And ideally, you know, we've done things where we, we explicitly post on our blog 00:26:07.629 --> 00:26:11.529 and in communities that we have Refuel week, there'll be a little bit of a 00:26:11.529 --> 00:26:17.454 longer response time go, please enjoy the time off as well, type of thing. 00:26:17.454 --> 00:26:18.564 Like let's put it back on you. 00:26:18.864 --> 00:26:20.574 Like, why why are you working this week? 00:26:20.686 --> 00:26:22.396 CJ Avilla: I mean, like back to your point earlier about like, 00:26:22.396 --> 00:26:27.106 okay, you know, leading up to taking time off, you shouldn't work extra. 00:26:27.346 --> 00:26:30.856 I think this is another bad habit that I've had that people might 00:26:30.856 --> 00:26:32.986 also have where, you know, okay. 00:26:32.986 --> 00:26:33.316 Yes. 00:26:33.316 --> 00:26:36.706 I know that I'm taking Thursday, Friday off, so let me work three extra 00:26:36.706 --> 00:26:39.256 hours on Monday and and Wednesday. 00:26:39.256 --> 00:26:39.766 So that 00:26:39.766 --> 00:26:40.066 like. 00:26:40.111 --> 00:26:41.431 Colin: toxic personality trait. 00:26:41.791 --> 00:26:42.211 CJ Avilla: Exactly. 00:26:42.781 --> 00:26:46.691 well, I mean, yeah, like it's, but if someone, maybe it's possible in 00:26:46.691 --> 00:26:51.521 that unlimited scenario that someone just works like insane amounts. 00:26:51.521 --> 00:26:55.721 They're doing 90 hour weeks for three weeks a month, and then they do take 00:26:55.721 --> 00:26:57.371 a week off and maybe that's okay. 00:26:57.401 --> 00:26:59.501 But maybe it's not like, I don't know. 00:27:00.186 --> 00:27:03.271 Colin: I think some companies even go as far as you have to take this 00:27:03.271 --> 00:27:06.661 much time off and we're gonna pay for your vacation up to a certain 00:27:06.691 --> 00:27:07.411 CJ Avilla: Oh, wow. 00:27:07.831 --> 00:27:08.371 never heard of that. 00:27:08.371 --> 00:27:09.271 That's that's super 00:27:09.271 --> 00:27:09.661 cool. 00:27:09.766 --> 00:27:11.746 Colin: think Zapier does this. 00:27:12.061 --> 00:27:12.571 CJ Avilla: Oh, wow. 00:27:12.661 --> 00:27:15.271 That's that is a great, that is a great perk right there. 00:27:15.271 --> 00:27:15.571 I like 00:27:15.856 --> 00:27:16.186 Colin: Yeah. 00:27:16.216 --> 00:27:18.616 Cuz when I think about it, you're gonna go to the Dominican, right? 00:27:18.616 --> 00:27:19.936 So you're like, okay, I'm taking time off. 00:27:19.936 --> 00:27:20.656 I'm getting paid. 00:27:20.986 --> 00:27:23.926 I'm basically using a good amount of that money to go there. 00:27:24.421 --> 00:27:24.931 CJ Avilla: Yes. 00:27:25.246 --> 00:27:29.656 Colin: so you're probably not using all of your salary for that time to go there, but 00:27:29.656 --> 00:27:33.136 it depends on what you're getting paid and it depends on how baller of a room you're 00:27:33.136 --> 00:27:34.816 gonna get when you go to the Dominicans. 00:27:34.821 --> 00:27:34.996 So 00:27:35.506 --> 00:27:36.766 CJ Avilla: Yeah, sidebar. 00:27:36.796 --> 00:27:41.009 Did you see the I'm gonna call it a marketing stunt, cuz that's what it 00:27:41.009 --> 00:27:42.929 is that topple is doing right now. 00:27:42.929 --> 00:27:43.559 Track 1: Yes. 00:27:43.949 --> 00:27:45.989 CJ Avilla: So you like nominate an open source developer. 00:27:45.989 --> 00:27:46.679 It might be closed. 00:27:46.679 --> 00:27:47.579 I don't know when it ends, 00:27:48.009 --> 00:27:49.260 So yeah. 00:27:49.260 --> 00:27:52.900 tuple.app, or app, whatever is it, is it tuple? 00:27:53.430 --> 00:27:56.520 They're doing this marketing stunt where you can nominate your favorite 00:27:56.520 --> 00:27:58.470 open source dev and whoever wins. 00:27:58.770 --> 00:28:00.990 They're paying for like an all inclusive vacation. 00:28:01.502 --> 00:28:05.312 Colin: So this is that idea that, you know, open source is hard. 00:28:05.792 --> 00:28:08.492 There is no unlimited paid time off in open source. 00:28:08.862 --> 00:28:09.212 CJ Avilla: mm. 00:28:09.857 --> 00:28:12.017 Colin: We're not talking any vacation. 00:28:12.017 --> 00:28:13.307 We're talking serious vacations. 00:28:13.307 --> 00:28:15.467 Here are actual pictures from actual destinations. 00:28:15.767 --> 00:28:17.537 We'll book, the hotel we'll buy the flights. 00:28:17.537 --> 00:28:21.317 We'll give them a prepaid card for meals, adventures, and daquiris by the pool. 00:28:21.647 --> 00:28:25.007 They will get up to $10,000 to spend on their vacation. 00:28:25.332 --> 00:28:28.002 Plus ones are welcome or you can spend the whole thing on yourself. 00:28:28.062 --> 00:28:28.962 So, yeah. 00:28:28.962 --> 00:28:31.782 And they dive into why, I think we'll put this in the show, cuz 00:28:31.782 --> 00:28:35.022 they're talking about all the things that we just did right on. 00:28:35.382 --> 00:28:38.922 How do you give these open source contributors, a break? 00:28:38.922 --> 00:28:42.531 How do you reward them for their service in a way, right? 00:28:42.531 --> 00:28:46.041 Or honor them for that service because you probably rely on their gems, 00:28:46.041 --> 00:28:49.041 their libraries, their tools, and. 00:28:49.221 --> 00:28:50.381 You can go and vote. 00:28:50.381 --> 00:28:54.303 There's 437 people that have been nominated. 00:28:54.922 --> 00:28:57.742 And so you can go vote on 'em, maybe even nominate somebody or 00:28:57.742 --> 00:29:00.188 yourself, if you aren't on the list, 00:29:00.803 --> 00:29:01.193 CJ Avilla: yep. 00:29:01.958 --> 00:29:02.678 Go for it is. 00:29:02.708 --> 00:29:03.548 So it's still open. 00:29:03.818 --> 00:29:04.178 When does 00:29:04.183 --> 00:29:04.538 Colin: like it. 00:29:04.688 --> 00:29:05.163 CJ Avilla: close? 00:29:05.793 --> 00:29:06.340 Colin: That's a good question. 00:29:08.260 --> 00:29:09.850 CJ Avilla: It might be closed by the time this episode 00:29:10.120 --> 00:29:10.900 Colin: It might, but 00:29:10.900 --> 00:29:13.690 if not keep an eye out on this, I think it'll be fun to 00:29:13.690 --> 00:29:15.760 mostly see the end of this, 00:29:16.030 --> 00:29:16.480 cool. 00:29:17.905 --> 00:29:23.140 I think that is probably all the different avenues of this that we could beat. 00:29:23.515 --> 00:29:27.731 I'd love to hear, like, if you have a really good tactic at like how to 00:29:27.736 --> 00:29:32.561 turn off and how to take good PTO, whether it's at home or a vacation, 00:29:32.561 --> 00:29:33.821 definitely send us your tips. 00:29:33.871 --> 00:29:36.312 We're Recovering workaholics ourselves. 00:29:36.372 --> 00:29:40.422 And this topic came up because we know we're not always good at it, 00:29:40.422 --> 00:29:41.712 and we want to get better at it. 00:29:42.042 --> 00:29:44.022 I want my team to feel like they can do it. 00:29:44.022 --> 00:29:48.162 I want them to take time off without worrying about putting me an lurch. 00:29:48.213 --> 00:29:48.633 All right. 00:29:48.633 --> 00:29:50.553 Where can people find notes for the show? 00:29:50.553 --> 00:29:54.623 CJ Avilla: You can find the show notes at buildandlearn.dev 00:29:55.143 --> 00:29:55.623 Colin: Awesome. 00:29:55.623 --> 00:29:57.483 And you can find us online. 00:29:57.483 --> 00:29:59.613 I am at @colinloretz on twitter 00:30:00.413 --> 00:30:02.383 CJ Avilla: I'm at @cjav_dev 00:30:02.403 --> 00:30:03.063 2022-07-28--t04-20-48pm--guest644854--cj-avilla: on Twitter. 00:30:03.068 --> 00:30:05.133 Track 1: we will see you in two weeks. 00:30:05.193 --> 00:30:05.823 Thanks everybody. 00:30:06.533 --> 00:30:07.038 2022-07-28--t04-20-48pm--guest644854--cj-avilla: Bye friends.