[00:00:00] Dan: Hello. And welcome back to we not meet the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.

[00:00:13] Pia: And I am peerly. Now I'm a bit jealous of you, Mr. Hammond, because you have, been mountain biking in the lovely sunny island of Madeira. Protel. 

[00:00:23] Dan: I have indeed five of us gentlemen of a certain age went off to slightly unwisely, probably do some downhill mountain biking, but it was truly wonderful. I've had a really good break. Thank you. And yeah, we had a nice little squat out there with its own strange cultures and yeah, we had just brilliant fun together. It was wonderful.

[00:00:39] Pia: And so did you completely switch off or, did you stray by looking at a little bit of social media while you're out there?

[00:00:45] Dan: I was pretty good. I know that the graveyards are full of indispensable people. So I've learned to actually. not look at my email and And, that worked pretty well, but I did have a little look at social media and we're starting to get a bit of interest on social media, quite a few comments and uh, some really interesting insights coming from our listeners, which is just really nice. 

[00:01:04] Pia: So what stood out? Any one in particular?

[00:01:06] Dan: The one that really made me chocolate a little bit was but also it's a good reminder was Matt our listener um, having listened to Dr. Jess talking about psychological safety, he, it reminded him of this quote. The minute you stop making mistakes is the minute you stopped learning. He thought he'd heard it from a sort of ex colleague who was a bit of a guru, but it turned out to be a Miley Cyrus quote, which made me chuckle.

[00:01:29] Pia: And there's wisdom, there's wisdom there, but it is interesting actually because university of Chicago booth that they did a really interesting piece of research with teams, a number of teams, and ask them to self rate, whether they thought they were high-performing and 90% of them thought high-performing then they brought out a criteria for what high-performance looked like and actually only 17% hit that. So what does that mean? Well, if you Don't measure it and if you don't know what you're measuring, then it becomes difficult to know how well you're doing and what your mistakes are, and then it becomes personal.

[00:02:07] So I think today's episode is really spot on because sports teams have been doing this for probably a lot longer than businesses or corporations. And they've got used to having the hard conversation around the data and the analytics, it water really in that singular goal of improving performance. So I think that should be an interesting avenue for our podcast today. 

[00:02:37] Dan: I think it will. We're hearing from Owen Finnegan, who's an ex professional sportsmen ex Wallaby, Australian rugby. And now is the CEO of the kids' cancer project. And he has loads to say about teams on, of all kinds that he's come across through his really very career. So let's listen to him now. 

[00:02:56] get, just get us started though. And tell us a little bit about yourself. I know a lot of people will know you, but us a little bit of a potted background could you get us all moving

[00:03:05] Owen: Yeah, I had a, I was lucky enough to after six or seven years in the workforce drop into professional sports. Played rugby for up until I was almost 22 years of age and then rugby became professional. Yeah, I was able to move from being a electrician into playing rugby and followed that career for about 16 years, playing and coaching at a professional level and then post that move in, moved into the not-for-profit world. So currently the CEO of the kids' cancer project, a national charity in Australia that funds scientific research uh, looking for better treatments, better survival and better quality of life for the children diagnosed with caner. 

[00:03:49] Dan: Wonderful It's an incredible organization that I hope bill we'll hear a bit of that later but if we sort of rewind a little bit in that though in what talk to us about those early days could you in think start thinking about what drew you into sport and that world of teams as well What were your early experiences as as you made that shift into into professional sport

[00:04:06] Owen: Yeah, I now I've applied a bit of everything when I was growing up. Whether it be water polo, swimming, know. Local surf club played rugby league and rugby union till I was almost 21. Cricket and tennis and Aussie. Lifestyle's all about sports and playing as much. And as many as you can. So it came from our rich family. Two brothers and two sisters, and I'm the only one born in Australia. So mum and dad. Yeah, immigrated out from Ireland and lucky enough to grow up here in Australia. And it's a real sporting background. So yeah, conscious now that I'd drive my kids around everywhere and I can just remember my mum, dad dropped me around fields around 

[00:04:43] Sydney for, yeah. For most of my early days. 

[00:04:46] Pia: And D and so on when you were obviously one of these like really annoying people, it was really good All sports So how did you start choosing and narrowing it down when, when you were probably talented a number of things

[00:05:00] Owen: I think I was probably more average than most of them, and then I fell into rugby. It was more of a social decision in the early 19 when I was 19 or 20 years old and rugby was on a Saturday and you'd have a few beers on a Saturday night, it felt less and less like playing a game of rugby league on a Sunday. But then I've made some junior rep teams and represented New South Wales and Australia. Under nineteens age groups. And as I said, I was working full-time as a electrician playing provincial footy for the first couple of years. And it wasn't until rugby became professional then I moved down to Canberra and spent almost two decades down there, playing and working in in both rugby and not-for-profits.

[00:05:39] So that was a bit of a lucky transition. I think it's great to have yeah. And you learn a lot about teams in between moving from a job and working then into a professional sport and then back out of it and into running a not-for-profit and a charity and so many different stakeholders and managing relationships that sports are really good tool for that. Yeah. Managing different groups and different.

[00:06:03] Pia: I have to ask you, were you a good electrician?

[00:06:05] Owen: Yeah, it was reasonably good. Only electrocuted myself twice in seven years. So I think that's a reasonably good. And the first one wasn't my fault. The tradesman supervising told me that he had isolated a switch, but it was somehow wind up wrong. Yeah. 

[00:06:17] Pia: Could it be an all over. 

[00:06:17] Owen: yeah, no, it's a, it was an enjoyable yeah. I had seven years post finishing school in that. And now it was a good time, as I said, it really the, you get that sort of lucky where you can change from working a nine to five job to working a couple of and a couple of morning and a couple of hours in the afternoon and out in the oval and, and having as a job. I want him to do that anyway. So getting paid for it was a bonus on top. 

[00:06:43] So lucky in a way, to straddle both the amateur and professional areas and probably not take it for granted on on how lucky I was.

[00:06:52] Dan: That's great. Well you're here Is to still tell the tale after your two electrocution then into into the, not for profit world the kids' cancer project, how did you how'd you end up making that transition

[00:07:03] Owen: Yeah, it was sort of a move I'd been in the not-for-profit for about four years. And I'd been at the kids' cancer project for about six years. So it was moving from Canberra back to Sydney where I grew up and the kids were going to high school. So I was looking for a to stay in the charity world. Uh, you know, I left my family up in Sydney for about five months until I found the right job and the kids' cancer project was it.

[00:07:24] Two or three months before I started there. Father passed away with probably four months before with cancer. Um, Now it was uh really appealing sort of charity for me. They did a great work. And also when I was playing at the Brumbies and the wallabies, when I first moved to Canberra and my roommate flatmate was David Giffin and uh, you know, our children are the same age. Now they're both 19 now, but when our kids were two, his was diagnosed with childhood caner. 

[00:07:52] Uh, Gift was from up in Brisbane and his wife was out front and Brisbane and they were living in Canberra and it just got a job assisting Eddie Jones as the assistant Wallaby coach, probably a couple of months prior to the diagnosis. And it was about the guy over on a European tour and then. Joseph got diagnosed. So yeah, I've moved up to Sydney and then moved into my sister's place for the first five or six months and where we could, we were in the hospital giving him a hand. So yeah, it was a pretty much 24 7. And when you got other kids, one one's at home and one's at the hospital, so it can be a really challenging. 

[00:08:28] Having gone through little bit, not as a parent, but as a good close friend, you understand the difference that good treatments can make, and now, even on the long-term side effects that the treatment causes and the challenges that they have as, as a young kid, but then constantly know through till now so, it was a really good fit and it's one of those jobs that we can wake up every morning and be excited about making a difference.

[00:08:55] Dan: that's amazing. You're doing amazing work and, uh, it's just really worth taking a look out for all our listeners to see what you get up to. Um, so looking at those two worlds or several worlds, if you include everything you've done, people are often looking to sport to draw lessons for leadership in, in business in not-for-profits and outside the world of sport. What would you say are the sort of commonalities you've seen and what are the key differences how would you draw those those out?

[00:09:21] Owen: Yeah, I think, yeah, I've been in really successful teams on many. Some ordinary teams and some in-between teams, but obviously, the better teams winning world cups and winning whether like cups and having a full cupboard was around rod McWane and John ales and George Gregan. So late strong leaders. Good business. Yeah, I'll just look know we've started in the not-for-profit world and our charity sort of investing in data in the last two or three years. And I just think we were looking at data and rugby 20 years ago, looking at statistics and trends and performance and viewing those statistics to guide how you performed and what your targets were on KPIs and looking at improving your game and all that sort of stuff.

[00:10:07] And. Yeah, we do the same sort of thing now, but. It's 20 years, as I said, two decades down the track. There's a lot of things in sports that guide that a lot of it, a lot of the relationship stuff, and yeah, understanding your team, just not as know, people that do a job, but individuals as well is really important because you can have some wonderful teams, but unless you get their own on the same page and some sort of connection, you're not gonna in.

[00:10:34] Dan: Yeah, I get the impression from outside professional sport that there's a very rich as a culture of feedback. It seems to be that, you know, that, uh, teams will review the videos. They will look at the data and they will be really straight up. About what's actually happened on the field and just people take it. Is that, is that a reasonable sort of view from the outside? Is that what that would, is actually like on the inside?

[00:11:00] Um, 

[00:11:01] Owen: It can be. Yeah, it can be gruesome. Some of the feedback it's uh, I've seen 

[00:11:05] Pia: How is that delivered 

[00:11:06] Owen: It's straight talking and without offense I've seen. Yeah. I've seen an Eddie Jones pool. Front row forwards into the change rooms and make them take their shirts off and tell them how bad they look and they need to get in the gym and do some more work, do some more. 

[00:11:23] Dan: It's free. 

[00:11:24] Owen: brutal feedback that, you know, if you tried it at any other job, you'd, you'd be uh, in all sorts of trouble.

[00:11:30] Pia: That's sort of a bit of a fine line between public shaming and feedback there 

[00:11:35] Owen: Yeah. And also something recently, one of the Irish internationals, Rob Carney came over to Australia to play. And when he came over, he was a bit critical of Michael checker and his style of coaching. And he's, sometimes, in, in sport it's easier to be brutal because everyone's a hundred percent on the same page. And if you can't have an honest conversation and.

[00:11:55] There was, you know, I remember doing work on years ago and they were talking about the right side and the left side of your brain when you're having conversations. And, know, in rugby circles, you don't really have that just whatever's in your brain. It, you don't try and make it nice. 

[00:12:09] Pia: comes 

[00:12:09] Owen: You don't try. And yeah, you don't 

[00:12:11] Dan: Yeah. 

[00:12:11] Owen: about what people are having in work. You could be thinking something totally different on the other side of your brain, you're saying, how do I say this to the person really nicely. So it doesn't matter. So conversations can be really strong. And I think in teams, the more honest conversations you can have where people see it as, constructive feedback rather than criticism, that strengthens attain. And then even individually in professional sport, you are held to accountability on your performance and, you can imagine that 10 or 15 lawn ants and a game, and you don't lift someone or you miss a call and there's, everyone in the team does it. Every one of the forwards makes one mistake. That's, you're losing a thing on outs and then you're not winning a test match or a world cup. So it relies on that performance unless you're training that sort of, and you've got a high caliber of individual who doesn't accept mistakes. Yeah. Then you're definitely held to accountable and that's a day in, day out where you get good habits.

[00:13:11] Dan: You mentioned there that. E it's easier to give feedback in the in the sports world, because you said everyone's on the same page. What, what, what's the difference there that we're obviously in in, in business and in other outside sport let's say we really want people to have a to be on the same page to be sort of purpose-driven and, and, and, and really aligned. What was the, what's the difference there with sport that you have that uh, 

[00:13:36] Owen: Well, I think in sport, most people are driven by their performance and their team's performance. So if you're in a team sport in particular um, you know, you're the individual bit is your salary compared to someone else's salary, but you don't, that doesn't come into your mind when you run out in the football field. You're not thinking, Someone else do it because he's paid more. It's about you doing your job and doing it well, and being happy with what you've got and you striving for the team's goals. And and everyone's side. I look at most of the teams I played in, people are sacrificing things to go into and you do a little bit in work, but probably not as much because you go in working, but you're sacrificing your time at home, or, depending on the hours you work or when your work, but in rugby, you can move countries or you can move state so you can move into teams and you're moving a lot and, you know, cause there's not too many people that will have a 15 year or 20 year career in one spot not have to move. Yeah. So you sacrifice, you move your family and move schools. So it's about then you're there for a reason and performance, and now the rest of your team want to do it, that's a really clear alignment and clear goal. So that's something that I've learned that if you don't have that in a business sense and you're not aligning everybody and you're not you haven't got that clear goal and vision and people know how their roles feed up into that, then you don't have that performance.

[00:14:59] So it's a front row in a scrum, for example, who pushes hard and wins every scrum can be just as good for a team as the David Campese, you're a Joe Roth or a Matt Burke scoring tries out in the wing and looking beautiful and pretty when all the hard work's been done at the front.

[00:15:13] Pia: So they're a Bit I wanted to ask Well, so if you, you're used to that brutal feedback and it's an all in, what does that do to the culture of the team? Like what does, what does it feel like to be part of that high-performing team? 

[00:15:26] Owen: I actually think it makes it stronger. I think culture there's no, yeah. There's no trying to mince around your words or if someone has a bad day and they come in and yeah. 

[00:15:36] I remember it was like, yeah, it was a bit of a practical joker when I was playing, but I used to go into the medical room and all the; you have to go in there every morning and weigh yourself and do a health and wellbeing and talk about how irritable you were. And I used to go in there every day just to see who was irritable so I could go and then wan them up and get them a bit more. Tighten the pressure off a little bit. And they use often and roll them up and most places, if you went in there and you looked at someone's dad like that and saw that they were irritable and you tried to make him more irritable, then they'd probably you would get the same result. But and I think there's a, it was a really good environment where, you know, honest conversations expected.

[00:16:15] I suppose the thing that I hated most about professional sport was when you had times that you weren't in a team or you were dropped and you were told something by a coach and you a hundred percent knew it wasn't right. Or it's not, it was just yeah. Just tell you that, tell you the truth and I'll be happy, if you're someone's better than me, just say they are, don't say it's for balance or they'd say it's because great yeah we want to rotate them around or we want to have a fresh approach or because he hasn't done it to the rest of the team. So I think, and the more honest you can be with your team in a work perspective the better, but sometimes you have to show you the coat things because it's not too often. You can go say to someone that you're, you've done a crap job and now and not upset them.

[00:16:59] Pia: And particularly when emotionally invested you know that the want to be doing a really good job. it's not just a, it's not just a head decision you know? There's a passion behind that as well. So, you've had that, you've had this experience elite sports highly analytical and then you move into What was the what about that change? What was different? 

[00:17:22] Owen: Oh, one thing was the hours. Like I was like, I suppose I was lucky that I had a slower transition, 13 or 14 years of playing. And as I said, you cut couple hours in the morning and go for lunch with the boys and they need a couple hours in the afternoon and then you're finished. But then I had four or five years coaching. And that was like, yeah, getting there before training at 5 36. So you can train the boys at seven 30 for a couple of hours, in review that training session to see if you could improve anything and then try in the afternoon. And then. Yeah review that session and look at previous games and past games, and then it became like a real job and you thought, oh, this is a little bit different.

[00:17:58] And then moving into sort of the not-for-profit world. It was, yeah. The hardest thing was exactly that like moving into a job where not everyone was as aspirational for the same thing. And and there for different reasons, I look at most workplaces and you've got to, and Allen, we've got a broad range of staff from different backgrounds and some have degrees and others don't and they're all coming in here, there's 20 people coming for different reasons and finding the balance of that way when you're in sport and you're in a team, the 20 people are coming for the one thing.

[00:18:27] Yeah. So trying to find out all those relationships and how they mix and meld and actually even then, do you know what you're doing? So I look at my first four years in a row I just thought things were good, but you don't actually know. So it's only in the last four or five years, but we've been surveying people and finding out actually, what is it, what we're asking them the question of what they do and don't like and yeah. And are they working together as a team and how can we improve? And what's good and what isn't. Yeah. You can always think you've got the right answers, but unless you actually hear it from the horse's mouth, the amount I've made on the right track. 

[00:19:04] Pia: Yeah you can make assumptions, can't you? I mean that's I think that's as quite a big shift that the lead often thinks they have to make all the decisions they own all the accountability And I think that's probably now changing a little bit around more broadly the whole team owning that 

[00:19:20] Owen: And that was a bit, that was a, probably the biggest thing that I learned early in, in professional sport. And rod McWane was the master of it? No, it was the player owners. Right. He organized and had everything running and had people facilitating conversations, but I'm a hundred percent sure that most of the things answers that were facilitated were the ones that he wanted anyway, we were guided down that path and he had everything planned, but yeah, player ownership was a big thing as far as people buying into the dream or the vision or what you're trying to do. And the big thing about leadership is my obviously leading and motivating team, but getting them to come on the journey with you.

[00:20:00] So I look at my rugby career. It was more about not the destination. Not what you want and not what you got to, but the journey and what you learn on the way and your people, you did it with. And that's where you have to get know a lot of businesses have a destination they want to get to, but the important part of managing and leading a team and motivating that is yeah. Having them on the journey and moving them along the way and motivating and inspiring them to get towards whatever that position.

[00:20:29] Pia: And you've done some incredible work with the kids cancer project and you, your ability to really raise the game inside that. So how have you used analytics? and for that, for this team, in order to be able to in such a crucial, crucial role, 

[00:20:42] Owen: Yeah. So there's a couple of different ways in Dallas, at Darla with our donors and stuff like that. We've been a lot more analytical and, and we've had a wonderful partnership with SAS for over three years. And yeah, so I looked four years ago, I was just, I had a data manager and he was just inputting all our donations and that's all we did, but now we're looking closer into that data and who's more likely to move into one area and how.

[00:21:07] Yeah, how do we make the donors donation more impactful? And so there's a lot of work around that sort of stuff, but then internally with the team we've been using Squadify. So I came across Squadify and that, that sort of concept of the three CS of clarity and competency and and climate when we were in once again in Australian rugby, 15 years plus ago, and then, then thought, that could be translated into what we do at the kids' cancer project. 

[00:21:37] So surveying our staff around those people. And like I said, our scores were probably embarrassing to start off with, but may thinking that I was doing a good job leading this team and they all knew what they did, so sometimes it's it's funny because even in the clarity space of. I've got a small team of 20, but you have enough meetings with people and you're telling them as much information as you can, when you, cause you have all these conversations, sometimes you think everyone knows what you know, but they don't.

[00:22:05] So making sure that there is that clarity across the team and everyone knows how their little bit adds up into set in rugby terms, everyone's got a little role to play in the performance of the team and it's the same in a business. Everyone's got to be on the same page. And the really good leaders have had, have brought people along on that journey. Yeah. So I look at John ales as the captain of our Wallaby team that won the World Cup, but he had Phil Kearns David Giffin, David Wilson, George Gregan, Steven Larkin, Tim hall. Yeah, Matt Burke, that all leaders in their own way. And it wasn't like John tried to be on the captain. He passed different sections of the game and control and they had committees and leaderships and medium leadership teams and, everyone.

[00:22:52] Yeah. Everyone was Would have thought they were a leader in that group because everyone had as much input and that built a reliance, not on one person, but on, on a larger team

[00:23:01] Dan: It's really interesting to hear how you've used data though. Or you mentioned earlier on you were in some ordinary teams I think for our non Australian listeners they that means quite bad teams So w what can we what did you learn from those? It's, it's interesting to see the sort of real high performance and the success that you've had, but those teams that just didn't work give us can you give some examples of that and what you've, what you've extracted from that in your team? 

[00:23:26] Owen: So I went to the Brumbies in 1996 and we were tagged misfits and rejects. So there were other provinces that were stronger and better, but we moved and, from day one we were tagged as. The, but it's that old adage of, champion team versus a team of champions, but, and that everyone expected the other provinces to be stronger, but by year one, we were in the top five by, year two, we were in a final of the super rugby.

[00:23:55] And then, and then, yeah, so I think in my 10 years at the Brumbies, we made six or seven finals and we won two of them. And and across 10 years, that's repleted success and like strong, continued performance, which is what you need for a high performing team. But I've been in other teams where I've had better players, but they haven't been on the same page.

[00:24:14] I think that idea of yeah. Of player ownership and everyone playing their part and having know. Champion team wherever and respects what other people are contributing. Not one person wants to take all the credit. I remember one of rod McQueen's big things was, yeah, I think after one of the games, I don't know what it was, maybe the British and Irish lions. He sent roses to all the wives and partners because you need to sell. Yeah, you have to stop and smell the roses. It was his thing. So that was the way you celebrated. Understand what we've done. Take time out to think about what, what we've achieved. And so a lot of it can be, it's not about just getting 15 of the best players around the world and sticking them together.

[00:24:57] Yeah, they'll do a great job, but you could get 15 people that want to work really hard for each other. aren't the best in the world, but can perform against them because they've got that kind of Asian and there's team qualities and they're working hard for each other and they possibly don't all 15 or the rock stars will want to be rock stars and impress, but they don't want to do the hard work, which you need to. It's funny, those sort of teamwork. And there were some teams like that. 

[00:25:23] I'd been in the workforce for seven years, but it wasn't until I got to rugby that I did my first SWAT analysis and that sort of idea of understanding, and rod McQueen's big thing was understanding, you know, sun Xu, understanding your enemy and understanding having a alignment and what you're doing and so all those things become important about. In the workplace as well about having a good team, understanding the strengths of your own team and not just working on your weaknesses as such, but using the strengths of your team to, to, to your benefit as well. 

[00:25:55] Dan: And you've you've managed to, extract a lot of goodness there from your, from your sports um, and your not-for-profit careers Um, for everyone, if we were to wrap up what would you what advice would you give team leaders and teams today?

[00:26:09] Owen: Yeah, it's funny. When you sent the invite, the join you on the podcast and I looked at your title. We not me. Now that is probably a big one when you're talking about teams. And I remember, so we have, leading up to the world cup in 1999, we're in, we was staying in some shared accommodation and they used to have a thing called quote of the week, and one of the quotes that then ended up on our cheat sheet for the rugby world cup in 1999 was a way not me. So it was a, it was Ben Toon who came up with that. And it actually became the catch cry for our For our world cup campaign in that do it for the better of the team and not for yourself. And there's no individuals and it's all for the greater good. And it's not about any one person taking the limelight.

[00:26:56] And I think we've got that even at our board level where most of our team now, even our border so it's not as if they're high and mighty, it's all encompassing, we're all equal. We're all the same. And we had a stage there where we just went from one thing to the next thing, and didn't really stop to look at our performance and celebrate success and analyze that performance and see what we can improve in the next time round. It was, we were just so busy going from one thing to the next, where if you don't take time to do some of that analysis, then you don't improve.

[00:27:30] Dan: That's great. And we have to endorse the we, not me takeaway there. That's a great I must say I thought we'd been very clever in coming up with that that title of it. Good to hear it help the world cup way back in the day.

[00:27:40] So, um, oh and thank you so much for joining us you've really um, managed to share some some light and actually some of that. Stories and take us into the sports world to see what teams do they can learn So thank you so much for joining us 

[00:27:54] Owen: pleasure. And if any of our listeners want to learn a little bit more about the kids' cancer project, that's a kids' cancer project.org.edu. Great charity started 26 years ago by a bus driver. And in the last 15 years, we've been able to come in over $50 million into childhood cancer research. So we're getting there and making a difference. So Pia and Dan, thanks for your time. And thanks for inviting me to the.

[00:28:17] Dan: thank you so much 

[00:28:18] Pia: See you soon.

[00:28:19] Dan: You know, appear on Bree left with a deep sense from sports teams that are in talked about they're about this culture, where data is used that they always think about, look at what they're doing and are quite critical and are prepared to talk really straight with each other. I am not sure I've worked in environment quite as open as, as it's clear about that. Uh, as he described, that's the thing that I'm left with.

[00:28:51] Pia: Yeah, quite insightful. I thought when he moved from being a player to a coach and he realized he had to work a lot longer, but also. He's time was spent analyzing the coaching sessions and the analytics and making the choices out of that. So that's that shows you the level of prominence it has and has had, you know, throughout that sporting sporting world, but it enables that straight talking type of conversation, you talked feedback being brutal. So I don't think I would advocate that in any shape or form but it draws me back to Jesse's point, Dr. Jess's point about. You know that psychological safety, how, how can you literally how could you play the ball, not the man? How can you get those facts so that you can have that type of conversation so that you can lean into how to improve and support. And, and then with it, that brings that whole high level of trust.

[00:29:45] Dan: does bring back that sort of idea of, of the ability to, as, as Dr. Jess said, to create that environment where you can move into discomfort, as you say, some of those over the line for it sort of nowadays, but that's the point that people need to get through. And I think of that. that drive for player ownership sort of enables that I think people are, if people have really feel they own it, then I think that people will both be analytical and, and face the face, the brutal facts, but also I'll be able to take them when they need them, which is a driver for performance of course.

[00:30:19] Pia: And then I think the final bit is, well, what a brilliant title. So rugby world cup, they get a brilliant, cool cry or, out for the team. We, not me. And, um, yeah, brilliant name. I thought that wasn't so good we made a podcast. 

[00:30:32] Dan: I thought we'd been quite original there, but 

[00:30:33] Pia: Obviously not.

[00:30:34] Dan: Exactly. the, the part about champion teams. So. Uh, a champion team will always be the team of champions. I know this is something that you and I've come across many times, and that is backed by the research as well. I suspect in future podcasts, we'll explore that a little bit more, but yeah, bringing stars together is a common mistake made by sports teams. And, uh, when I, when taught there about the Brumbies and it was sort of a little bit of a group of misfits, but they actually created a really great team from those folks rather than just hiring the sort of rocks.

[00:31:06] Pia: And actually it was interesting to hear how they made a team, a team, so they delegated responsibility down through the team. So there wasn't just one captain that, you know, in, in, in alignment with that. Roles and positions, uh, inside the team, they had different responsibilities. So I think that's a really interesting element where you've got leadership as opposed to just the one leader. And I think that's a key element. It's, we've see that play out often in the sports field. It emerges in the business world, but it has to be really fostered and encouraged to make that with great benefits.

[00:31:46] Dan: Yeah, it really does. And we we've been sort of raised to think that there's some great leader there, but actually that leadership has INSEAD is best distributed, especially head out. So, um, so wonderful. Um, I think there's a lot to chew over there. What I'm looking forward to next week's episode. Pia, what have we got coming up?]

[00:32:02] Pia: up we found somebody relatively famous, which is really quite exciting. So, um, next week we're going to go on a very different tangent into the arts world, into acting into, on the set and talk to Eric Thompson, common feature on our TV and film for the last, you know, 20 years, uh, down here in Australia and, uh, and as well internationally. So it is going to be real joy to be talking to him.

[00:32:31] Dan: Really looking forward to it. And, uh, and again, uh, just a totally different view on these, uh, interesting little units called teams. So that's it for this episode, pier, everyone can find the show notes and resources at Squadify dot net. You just have to click on the we, not me podcast link. If you've enjoyed the show, please do share the love and recommend it to your friends. Um, we not me. Bye Mark Steadman at origin.fm. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.

[00:33:00] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.