Welcome to Transformative Principle.
This is Jethro Jones.
I'm pulling some old stuff out of the vault for you today.
Stuff that is still relevant, even though I recorded it a while ago for the Transformative Leadership Summit.
Were you a listener when I did those?
'cause they were pretty awesome.
So today's episode is from that vault.
I hope you enjoy it.
I haven't released these publicly and.
Listening to them.
Again, I cannot believe how relevant they are.
So good stuff, and I hope you enjoy it.
Thanks so much for listening to Transformative Principle.
Hello.
Welcome.
Uh, I am excited to have Glenn Robbins on today, and this interview is gonna be awesome.
Glenn is the principal of Northfield Community School in Northfield, New Jersey, where he's implemented many awesome things, including surfboard bars.
And you can learn more about that by listening to that interview that I did with him on the Transformative Principal podcast.
But today, we're gonna talk about how to actually make that innovation happen.
Glenn is also the principal… the Digital Principal 2016 by NASSP, and the winner of the 2015 Middle School BAMMY EduVoice Award.
He also calls himself the lead learner/designer, so maybe we should start there.
Glenn, welcome.
I'm so excited to talk to you today.
You are an inspiration to me, so thanks for coming on and chatting.
Oh, thank you for having me, Jethro.
This is fantastic.
So I wanna talk about some of the, um, things that you're doing in your school where there's a lot of innovation happening.
What is it that you do to make sure that that innovation happens?
I think ultimately as a leader and as I, I put /designer, I'm trying to think about what is the experience I'm trying to create for my students and my staff and my community in whole.
And trying to look at it from a, a lens of not just an educator, uh, not just a dad, but as a human being, what is for the betterment for, you know, humanity and where are we going in the future.
And for me, I have, um, I believe in autonomy, um, and giving my staff and giving my students that autonomy, um, that open door relationship where they can feel that trust to come up to me and speak with me and share ideas.
Um, I do not like the standardized ideas.
I do not like the idea of my son, who's four, having the same education that I had, uh, back in my day, and I would like to somewhat like to disrupt, you know, critically disrupt that, uh, traditional silo that we continue to fall into.
So, you know, we look at ways on what can we do to improve the lives of not only our kids, but s- and as a staff, but also the community.
And like I said, it's having those open, honest conversations.
And it's, um, you know, using that design thinking mindset, which is yes, and, how might we, and what if, and trying to remove all those, uh, negative, uh, people from the situations.
You know, if they have a problem, which I welcome critiques all the time 'cause that helps better the situation, but I would like, you know, two solutions to come with it, as John Gordon always mentions.
So, uh, for me, you know, the ideas come… I'd like to think of our school somewhat of like an incubator, uh, for the staff, and the students can have a true voice to their school.
And I, I feel that they should be empowered in every way because, you know, student empowerment or staff empowerment equals staff and student voice, which equals staff and student engagement, which equals pride, and that's ultimately what I try to seek each and every day
Well, that's pretty awesome.
You just gave a ton of great information there.
Um, let's break it down into some, uh, smaller chunks, and let's first talk about the idea of, um, people bringing problems and coming with two solutions.
How do you actually talk to your staff about setting that up so that they know they should come with a problem and solution, but also, um, they should come with two and not just one?
You know, I think it's, uh, having those open, honest conversations.
I'm in my fourth year now at our school, and when I came into the building, it was somewhat of a mess.
And, uh, there's, you know, the background of my story.
It, it wasn't an ideal situation for any principal to come into.
So first and foremost, it was about building that transparency with my staff and trying to show them I'm with them, not against them.
I try to be a transformational/servant leader the best I can be, because ultimately it's about coming in and giving every day instead of trying to get and get the awards.
It's about what's best for them to make their jobs easier, to be more successful.
Um, you know, so one of the greatest mistakes I ever made was I, you know, tried to flip a faculty meeting, uh, for five minutes, and I, I do not like faculty meetings.
I, I'm on record stating that multiple times 'cause I'm sure you can just have a meeting to have a meeting.
Um, if it can be on an email, send it out in an email.
Let's make it meaningful PD time, uh, because they're well-respected individuals in the profession but they're not always treated that way.
Uh, so I figured, you know, I'm gonna send a five-minute email out, uh, video of, you know, talking about the building, uh, talk about a couple teachers that don't ever really get recognized and then, you know, give them a little homework, which was write down three things that you love about your building and where do you see we're going from here.
And I, I sent that to my IT director, who I love and I think is probably one of the best IT people I've ever worked with, and he put it out there and, uh, it took off the next day.
The day after I came back everybody said, "Oh, this is the greatest idea ever. You know, you, this is brilliant." And I'm thinking to myself, wait a minute, all I did was just speak about the school in five-minute fashion, and it's no different than a 60-minute, you know, typical faculty meeting.
And as the day went on, people kept coming up to me and saying, "This is brilliant, this is brilliant." I, I just couldn't figure it out until finally I realized that depending on what platform you're watching it on-
Are you there?
I think I lost you.
Are you there, Jethro?
Yep.
You ju- you were just saying depending on what platform you're watching it on, go.
Okay.
Um, depending on what platform I was watching, they were watching it on, um, I was upside down.
And I literally flipped the faculty meeting.
So I had walked into the faculty meeting saying, "I made a mistake.
I tried to do something different.
I was trying to be creative and outside the box, like I always try to strive to say to you, but it wasn't perfect, and it, it came out and look what happened." You know, so I put my guard down and I put my ego aside, checked it at the door.
And, uh… Did I lose you again?
Sorry, I'm on my- You're, you're good.
No problem … I'm on my phone, sorry.
I had a phone buzz in.
Um, so I'll back up for a second.
So I w- I basically was being transparent.
I said I'd love to take credit for it, but I did not mean to do it that way.
It was just the way it came out, and I took ownership of my mistake, and that, that broke down a lot of barriers and a lot of walls.
And from that point on, I also, you know, said to my staff, I said, "Look, I, I go to people asking for help all the time. You know, I would like you to do the same for me. You know, none of us are perfect in here." Uh, which I obviously just showed you all.
"And, you know, from this point on, like I said, as we move forward, I need your input to make our school better.
Uh, but don't just come with one answer, come with two, because we'd like to have a multiple view of what we can do differently
instead of just one person's perspective." And they bought into it, and, you know, it's a, it's a relationship that we've had ever since, and I, I appreciate their honesty and their, their expertise every time they come to me.
Yeah, so going into a difficult situation as a principal, um, any principal going in, in there is going to have some, um, parts that are difficult, right?
You're the new guy, new gal coming in.
So making a mistake could be a very scary thing for you to experience.
Um, how did you… How… What advice would you give to someone to own their mistakes?
How do you make it okay to do that and not be so afraid that they're gonna see a flaw?
What, what do you need to know to be able to do that?
You know, that's a tough mindset to adjust to, because, you know, you're used to your training and your observations and your, you know, your, um, your internships, and that's all you've always been told.
But yet you always forget in the back of the mind, when your teachers told you back in college, "If you don't know the answer, just tell the other student, 'Get back to her.'
You know, I have the answer right there." But when you get into administration, people get more egotistical and have that, you know, the shoulders up and say, "I have to know it all and be all." And I think it's just relinquishing that and saying, "I'm just a human being trying to do what's best for everybody and anybody."
And, um, you know, that's not an easy sell by any means, and that's a, that's a big part of, you know, the s- staff and you trying to work together.
Um, but I also think it, it, it shows what you're trying to do for the betterment of the school if you're putting in the hard work.
You need to do.
You know, are you there late nights like most of us are?
Are you there, you know, working, talking to parents or kids or a teacher?
Um, you're not always clocking out at whenever time dismissal is with the kids.
You're, you're there in the after hours.
You're there during the day.
Um, you know, and you, you put in the hard work, and you're visible, you know, throughout the day to have those conversations instead of being locked behind closed doors.
So, you know, it's just, if people will see the hard work that you're putting in, and they'll see that passion and that dedication to them, that after a while, it makes it a little bit easier for people to realize that you are a human being, and you're there for and best for them, like I said before, not to get them
Yeah, and I think that that is, uh, an important piece that we often forget, that you need to show that you're there.
Um, and I think being visible throughout the day, it's so easy when we get mandates from the district or things that we need to do to be in our office and, and not be out doing stuff.
And, um, I've, I've heard many principals say that they do that district stuff in their office after all the kids are gone so that teachers know where to find them after school, but during the day you gotta be out and about.
Um, when it comes to innovation, how do you, um, how do you make it so that it's not just people bringing problems to you, but bringing ideas for new opportunities, or is every new idea a solution to some problem?
No.
I've, uh, I've been asking the staff and kids for years, saying, "This is our building, our building, our building.
You know, what can we do to make it truly our building and for all of you to have a voice?" So like I mentioned earlier, it's about having those open, honest conversations with them and following through.
You know, a lot of the changes that we make here were staff and student driven.
Uh, the artwork you can see behind me, you know, we had the kids and the staff, uh, and the community support revamp our logo.
You know, that was in desperate need of an update, and we gave a huge survey, got everybody involved, and this was the new logo that they chose.
And I had eighth grade girls paint it up there for me, and then I had fifth grade kids paint all throughout the hallways, which we now-
Did I lose you?
You did.
That's all right.
All right.
You had fifth grade- Where I lose you at?
Eighth grade girls painted behind you and fifth grade kids Okay, so fifth grade kids also painted in the hai- hallways, also in their idea streets, uh, to build up that, that sense of culture.
Um, you know, kids started saying, "Hey, maybe we could get some shirts or T-shirts."
So sure enough, we started doing that for each new s- grade level coming in.
Uh, we needed a mentorship, and some of the teachers expressed, you know, the difficulties they've had with eighth graders and fifth graders that we have in the building, so we come up with a mentoring program from that point on.
Um, so like I said, it's just having those authentic conversations to move forward and, um, and that includes the kids.
And includ- you know, I mean, I go after each kid that's not the captain of the soccer team or the, you know, student council, uh, president.
I go after every kid asking for their advice as well on what they'd like to see differently.
You know, now obviously you can't do every single change that they want, but, you know, if you listen to them, you work with them, you know, they, they appreciate that.
Yeah.
So how do you… Where, where would somebody start?
Somebody's coming into a new building, or they've been out of school for a while, and they just haven't been able to have it be an our building kind of approach.
Where do you start with that?
How… What's one way where you can start momentum, uh, something small you can do to get things rolling?
I think one of the best things that we did recently was doing a design thinking charrette, and we brought in teachers, we brought in s- uh, community members, we brought in the local library, we brought in administration, we brought in, uh, board members.
You name it, we brought it in.
And we looked at our school from a non-biased lens and tried to really break down, what do we need to do to create a better experience for our kids?
And that buy-in right there built throughout the day, and we put together our Life Ready manifesto, um, because of the fact that we bought into it.
We built this.
'Cause you're gonna ask people to look at their mission statements or read their mission statements in their school, I'm pretty sure the majority of people can't read it, or nor recite it, I should say, because it was devised, I don't know, 10, 15 years ago.
And, you know, it still uses that same vernacular, 21st century, you know, we're 16 years into the 21st century, uh, things along those lines.
Uh, so the Life Ready manifesto that we put together was, you know, what can we do to get these kids ready for right now?
And that built, that was like the premise or the foundation from that point on.
We put up posters, we put up a huge, um, mantra in the one room that we created, and we really got the staff, uh, involved.
From that point on, we evolved to staff meetings, uh, for welcome back and service days, and we did a full workshop, uh, full day long, where myself and another teacher, uh, helped lead it, and every staff member was involved.
So they all bought into it.
And I think the, the biggest thing to them is, like you mentioned earlier, there's so many mandates out there, there's so many new things coming from the state or, and/or the district, that you have to take ownership with them.
And it's not just, "Hey, this is what central's saying to do, this is what state's saying to do." Instead, it has to be, "This is what we need to do, and how can we do this together as one?" And, you know, when you have that trust and that, you know, y- you work through that design, thinking charette, working with everybody into doing these crazy activities, and being open and honest.
And no one, you know, is to hold back in any way, because if you hold back, you're ultimately hurting us in the long run.
So, you know, you have to be open and honest throughout that whole process.
And then putting it in action, and following through, and letting the staff know that this is not just a one-and-done thing, you know, a year from now when another mandate comes out.
This is something we're gonna build on from this point on.
And that can be anything.
You know, we did it through design thinking, but that could be through any type of mandate or whatever it may be that your building comes into.
My advice is to seize it and run with it, and make it a whole collaborative effort instead of just being top-down driven.
Yeah.
So, um, that, you know, bringing staff, community, and students in, that sounds like a, a, a big thing that you need to do.
What's a, a smaller thing that you can do to start this out, Glenn?
Um, and I wanna ask a follow-up question about the Life Ready Manifesto, but, but let's start smaller.
What's something that you c- where's an easy place to start in anybody's school, um, to start getting people to buy in?
Um, one thing I've been doing for the last three years, and I made it a purpose and a passion of mine, is I meet with my union president every morning, uh, for the- Every, every day?
Every morning.
Okay.
Every day.
Um, and I'll say it again, every day.
Yes, I get that look and the same question every time I say it.
Um, and the purpose being is I would like to know the pulse of the building.
You know, I have the o- I have the conversations throughout the day with all the staff, but obviously there are some people that still prefer to go to their union rep or whatever it may be.
So when she comes in, and I'm blessed, you know, I have an amazing union president, uh, that will sit behind closed doors, and there's days we get along.
There's days where we, like, pound our head against each other and… But ultimately, it stays behind the closed doors, and when we go out, it's for the betterment of the kids.
And I built that relationship of, uh, openness and transparency because I wanted what's best for the school.
And so often you always hear the Darth Vader theme song when the administrator walks down the hallway, and it's the dark side versus the light side.
Why can't it be our side?
Why can't it be a school together as one?
You know, why does it have to always be second-guessed?
You meet every day.
You know, things along that nature.
You know, why isn't it a, a together, cohesive unit?
And as long as you're doing what's best for the kids, no one can ever fault you with that.
And you're not always gonna agree, but when you start having that meeting with your union president or whoever it may be in your building, a rep, whatever it may be.
And, and then there's other days where we just talk about family or we talk about a lesson going on in the classroom.
You know, things of that nature.
It's not always business.
It's, it's also, you know, the understanding of the complexity of the whole person instead of the whole child.
You know, you're, you're looking at that person and understanding what they're going through, and finding out things that other staff members may be going through, that's hardships in their life, whatever, and trying to work with them, and that's a huge recommendation I would make.
I know that might be tough for some people to jump into, because it's an ego type of a situation when you jump in.
You gotta check it at the door.
You, you have to do that, because if you're gonna be two-sided, you know, what, what are you truly wanting to accomplish?
And, uh, you know, if you want it bad enough and you wanna move your school forward, you need to do it.
Yeah, and what I li- I was gonna talk about the ego thing too, but what I like about m- meeting with that person each morning is that- You build a relationship with someone that you meet with every single day, and that's really what it's about, is building that relationship so that maybe the first year you don't hear about any problems, but then the second year they're like, "Hey, this guy's actually doing this.
I'm gonna start talking about some of the things that I'm hearing and maybe we can… Maybe he'll actually do something about it." Whereas I think the typical approach is it doesn't matter if we tell the principal, 'cause he's not gonna change his mind or her mind about it.
Right.
Um, so when, when it comes to, um, these giving people, you know, autonomy and, and helping, having them come up with solutions, how do you deal with the bad ideas that come that people maybe are really passionate about and it's just not going to work for your school and it's clear it's not going to work?
How do you shoot down the bad ideas without ruining the relationship or destroying what you're trying to create?
I think ultimately it's you don't always have to give an answer right away.
And what I mean by that is if you came to me right now at my desk and said, "Hey, I wanna do this, this, and that."
Well, you've had plenty of time to think about it, I haven't.
Um, you know, so I need to look at it from the administrator role as what is for the best for the school and all the stakeholders, everyone involved, instead of just one particular person view towards maybe just improving their classroom or just their kids.
So, you know, I take it in and then maybe go back and have that conversation.
I try not to have conversations in passing, um, if it's a big issue, because it's not fair to them.
And I say that, uh, many times throughout the s- the year, the staff, "Hey, look, this is not the time or place," and/or, you know, th- "I may have two minutes and you're worth way more than two minutes of that conversation time, so can we meet up later?"
And they respect that because that's an open, honest answer saying that they are worth more than a two-minute conversation, that they really feel passionate about that.
And then when you sit down at th- both sides of the table, you have those conversations and say, "This is what I'm thinking for the betterment of the school.
Maybe we can modify your idea," you know, or, "Maybe it can't work because of financial budgeting," whatever it may be.
And but I'm never gonna write off anything totally.
You know, if there's a will and a way, and it's f- for the betterment of the school, we're gonna try to make it happen.
If, you know, it's just a, a situation or a too big or too complex of a, um, proposal, then we, I have to be saying no, and it's okay to say no.
You know, you're, you're not stifling anybody because you built that relationship already to know that they can come to you again, you know, as you, time goes on.
And you know, you gotta let them know and say that you appreciate the time and effort you put into it.
You know, then… And not every time we're gonna say yes to everything, or we all…
You can only imagine if everybody said yes all the time what the world would be, you know?
So, you know, they have to be understanding and, and empathetic to what we're trying to do.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that's a, that's a great response.
It's not fair to them to have a passing conversation 'cause they're worth more than that.
That's a great way to, um, deal with those, those opportunities that come across.
What would you say is one of the challenges of, of having an open, uh, forum to discuss things all the time?
What are some of the things that you run into that cause you more challenges than they otherwise would?
I think ultimately it's a challenge, is it will weigh on you as the administrative official, um, because ultimately you…
I'm the type of person that takes it in and, and goes home and reflects, and looks in the mirror and says, "Man, I could have did 15 things differently that day." And of course there are others who do not do that and, you know, look in the mirror and they say that they're perfect.
Uh, but for me, I look at that mirror and go, "Man, I really wish I could do this right.
Maybe I could try," or you know, "I need to have that conversation." So, you know, to me it wears on me.
Um, but I push that and I want that at times because if I had a status quo staff and I had a status quo, uh, school, we would get nowhere, and that would put back the educational system that I had that my four-year-old would eventually have.
Um, so you know, ultimately it's just, you know, you, you have to, you have to reflect, um, on everything you do and try to move forward.
And you let the staff know this might be a one and done thing, you know?
And I've, I've said that many times with a lot of the innovative ideas that we're doing with, you know, Ed Camp period, and digital shop design thinking, and Idea Street, and all this other crazy stuff we're doing, uh, and learning management systems for, for kids.
It's great and all, but at the end of the year we have to sit back and reflect and see what really worked and what didn't.
And you know, we're not gonna live and die on that top of that mountain because we strongly believe in something if it needs to be modified.
Uh, so that's how I look at it and that's how I would recommend it to anybody else, is just be open and honest with yourself, and reflect truly, you know, what is it you're trying to do for the best of the kids.
Yeah.
And, and how do you reflect and how do you determine that something was worth the effort that went into it?
How do you determine if something is successful or not?
'Cause it's, it's easy to try something new, but it's hard to stop something once you start it because it- Yeah … it, it can easily become tradition.
Yeah.
And I, I look at it that way, um- I think it's just the emails that we get, the phone calls, the conversations outside when the parents pick up and drop off kids.
And you know, this year we've had a lot of parents, um, literally crying saying, "Thank you. The kid's just, just so excited to go to school. You know, they want, want, don't wanna come home."
And how often do you hear that in a school where they don't wanna come home, they wanna stay at school, um, they're doing cool things.
And to me, that's our assessment.
You know, when kids… When I'm walking around our idea streets and the kids are, are raving about a project they just worked on or a presentation they just put together, and they have so much enthusiasm, um, and passion to share it.
You know, when I first started here four years ago, I used to have to pull kids out of the classroom and say, "All right, what are you learning? You know, tell me about it." Now, it's like if I'm passing some kids in the hallway or idea street, they'll say, "Hey, Mr. Adams, we're doing this project today. This is what it is."
It's like, you know, it's contagious and it's a, it's amazing thing that every kid is so happy and prideful to share what they're working on.
I think ultimately that's the assessment that I'm looking for, you know?
And, and if they're happy, and the kids are happy, and the staff's happy, and the parents are happy, then good things are happening, you know?
And we don't know what test scores will be in a couple years because in New Jersey it continues to change.
Um, so we're trying to still comparing multiple different things.
Um, but looking at it for the, the, the sake of the whole child, you know, kids are happy coming to school.
We're building a breakfast program for them to eat up till 10:00 every day, plus their lunch as well.
We have programs after school, you know, and we're, we're giving them a voice, you know, of, uh, it's their, their school.
And like I said, when they're, when they're ranting and raving about how great things are, I don't know what better assessment data you need Yeah, absolutely.
And, and kids coming and telling you what's going well is something that you can't really beat.
So Glenn, thank you so much for your time today and for sharing your wisdom with us.
Um, any parting words before we sign off?
I just want to say thank you for this opportunity.
Um, I'm beyond ecstatic to be a part of your, your group that you're putting together here, uh, to share with other administrators.
Uh, I would like to throw it out there, um, I'm a big believer in sharing and working together to build up on the educational field.
So if anybody ever wants to reach out to me on Twitter, @GlennR1809, um, feel, feel free to do so.
Uh, you can also hit me up on email, glennr1809@gmail.com, and I'd love to have those conversations and build those collaborations for years to come, the better my school, your school, and for all the kids.
'Cause ultimately, they're the ones who deserve it the most.
So thank you for Jethro for your time.
No problem.
Thank you.
You'll also have an opportunity to interact with Glenn in the, uh, private Facebook group associated with this event.
So that'll be an awesome opportunity to, uh, get to know him if he joins.
You never know these days.
All right, thanks so much, Glenn.
Thank you, Jethro