00:00:00.459 --> 00:00:08.809 Jenny Luna: We didn't want to just bring someone else in who really didn't understand the landscape and understand the tone of what the GSB is. 00:00:09.290 --> 00:00:14.190 Neil McPhedran: Welcome to Continuing Studies, a podcast for higher education podcasters to learn and get inspired. 00:00:14.419 --> 00:00:19.719 I'm Neil McPhedran, founder of Podium Podcasts, an agency for higher education podcasters. 00:00:20.210 --> 00:00:25.179 Jennifer-Lee: And I'm Jennifer-Lee, founder of Jpod Creations, podcasting is broadcasting. 00:00:25.180 --> 00:00:26.740 We want you to know you're not alone. 00:00:26.800 --> 00:00:31.390 In fact, there are many of you higher ed podcasters out there and we can all learn from each other. 00:00:31.710 --> 00:00:34.980 Please also join our community at HigherEdsPods.com. 00:00:35.420 --> 00:00:43.259 Neil McPhedran: Okay, Jen, we've got the two Jennifer episode, you and we interview in this episode, Jenny Luna. 00:00:43.800 --> 00:00:44.779 Jenny squared. 00:00:45.169 --> 00:00:50.040 We interview Jenny Luna from Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:00:50.474 --> 00:01:00.994 And for you long time listeners, you'll remember that Jenny was actually our first episode guest, and she's been kind enough to come back again. 00:01:01.025 --> 00:01:11.215 And this time we had her chatting about a new podcast that the Graduate School of Business launched in the last year, since we last chatted with her. 00:01:11.285 --> 00:01:19.524 That podcast is called If/Then, and it's the new flagship podcast from the Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:01:19.584 --> 00:01:32.215 Jenny talks a little bit about what it is, um, but we wanted her to come back on to talk about how this podcast is quite different from the other podcasts that Jenny works on at the Graduate School of Business. 00:01:32.445 --> 00:01:38.664 Jennifer-Lee: And Jenny gives us all her secrets of why they're the masters of successful podcasts at the Stanford GSB. 00:01:38.945 --> 00:01:41.625 Neil McPhedran: Okay, so let's get into it with Jenny. 00:01:42.285 --> 00:01:42.995 Welcome, Jenny. 00:01:42.995 --> 00:01:46.205 It's so great to have you here on Continuing Studies. 00:01:46.354 --> 00:01:47.785 Jenny Luna: Yeah, it's great to be back. 00:01:47.785 --> 00:01:48.794 Thanks for having me. 00:01:48.945 --> 00:01:51.625 Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, I'm excited to see Jenny again. 00:01:51.625 --> 00:01:57.715 I haven't talked to you for over a year and I got to meet you in person last year at the podcast movement. 00:01:58.214 --> 00:02:01.865 And you took Neil and I somewhere very cool and different. 00:02:01.875 --> 00:02:04.035 We went to the Meow Wolf Museum. 00:02:04.564 --> 00:02:09.174 I don't know how to explain it to people what I went to, but it was pretty interesting. 00:02:09.664 --> 00:02:10.914 Jenny Luna: Yeah, that was crazy. 00:02:10.934 --> 00:02:14.974 I've always wanted to go and it was so fun that I just told you guys, okay, we're going somewhere. 00:02:15.014 --> 00:02:15.924 Don't ask questions. 00:02:16.215 --> 00:02:17.195 We're just going to show up. 00:02:17.204 --> 00:02:22.340 And this wacky, colorful, artsy, crafty, crazy explosion of color. 00:02:22.520 --> 00:02:22.680 Neil McPhedran: Yeah. 00:02:22.680 --> 00:02:24.140 I don't know how to explain it either. 00:02:24.190 --> 00:02:30.949 I just got a notification on, from Apple that I was at the end of my iCloud room. 00:02:30.950 --> 00:02:36.120 And so I had, I was just going through a bunch of photos this weekend and there's all these videos and photos from that. 00:02:36.120 --> 00:02:37.269 That was, yeah, that was fun. 00:02:37.279 --> 00:02:41.259 Anyone who has never been to a Meow Wolf who's listening, do go check them out. 00:02:41.260 --> 00:02:42.530 I know we went to the one in Denver. 00:02:43.030 --> 00:02:44.740 Um, you know, I think there's one in Vegas. 00:02:44.760 --> 00:02:47.120 I think that there's a couple of them out there, but definitely go. 00:02:47.120 --> 00:02:49.920 So, but that's not why we have you here, Jenny, today. 00:02:50.010 --> 00:02:51.990 This is your second time on Continuing Studies. 00:02:52.080 --> 00:02:53.530 Thanks for coming back. 00:02:53.580 --> 00:02:55.029 You're our first repeat guest. 00:02:55.069 --> 00:03:02.130 And we wanted to today chat about a new podcast that, uh, the Graduate School of Business launched, Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:03:02.380 --> 00:03:03.920 Called If/Then. 00:03:03.940 --> 00:03:10.669 And you've just wrapped up season one, I think about a month ago, and you're actually starting to work on season two. 00:03:10.669 --> 00:03:16.999 So we thought it would be a great time to have you on to talk about that journey and that process. 00:03:17.039 --> 00:03:29.255 And being a higher ed pod vet as you are, this is, I think, maybe, what is this, your third or fourth podcast you worked on and launched at the GSB? 00:03:29.464 --> 00:03:34.954 Jenny Luna: Yeah, this is about fourth show that we've launched, but this one is what we call the flagship. 00:03:34.994 --> 00:03:41.005 So it was really the first show we worked on that we wanted to represent the Graduate School of Business as a whole. 00:03:41.284 --> 00:03:41.644 Neil McPhedran: Right. 00:03:41.994 --> 00:03:47.985 So maybe you could just quickly give us a quick explanation on If/Then as a podcast. 00:03:48.025 --> 00:04:00.495 And again, like, as you said, it's the flagship, so it's a bit different from the other podcasts, which are, you know, a professor or a couple of professors are the hosts and you've essentially sort of helped them stand up their shows. 00:04:00.505 --> 00:04:06.055 This one is across the board and it's the flagship coming from the Graduate School of Business. 00:04:06.065 --> 00:04:09.865 So maybe you could sort of explain a little bit of what it's all about for our audience. 00:04:10.005 --> 00:04:10.465 Jenny Luna: Yeah. 00:04:10.705 --> 00:04:20.124 If/Then, the official title is If/Then, Research Findings to Help Us Navigate Complex Issues in Business, Leadership, and Society. 00:04:20.269 --> 00:04:23.780 Long title, mostly for SEO, but we could talk more about that later. 00:04:23.849 --> 00:04:38.659 If/Then has faculty members on to talk specifically about their research because a big messaging goal of the Graduate School of Business is to let our audiences know truly how the work that our professors do in research changes the world. 00:04:38.950 --> 00:04:43.320 How it changes the way we think, how it changes policy, how it changes management. 00:04:43.680 --> 00:04:53.430 And so our goal is each episode features one faculty really detailing a paper or their body of work, and we use storytelling to get that message across. 00:04:54.060 --> 00:05:06.519 So we only go with tenure line faculty, which is different for us, but for the first season, it was really important to do only tenure line faculty and represent every academic area across the institution. 00:05:06.710 --> 00:05:11.340 Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, I found it really interesting, especially taking a look at some of the episode titles. 00:05:11.380 --> 00:05:16.400 You have some controversial topics like, do people need to go back to the office space? 00:05:16.660 --> 00:05:19.330 Is Zoom effective for communication? 00:05:19.330 --> 00:05:25.859 And I always thought that was something that maybe we were done with talking about, but we're not because it is such a big contentious point. 00:05:25.919 --> 00:05:28.520 So it was really interesting to listen to that episode. 00:05:28.780 --> 00:05:37.284 So really, how do you guys decide for your season what is going to be important to showcase Stanford School of Business? 00:05:37.565 --> 00:05:42.875 Jenny Luna: What we did for the first season is we actually based it really on the faculty members themselves. 00:05:42.885 --> 00:05:55.884 So we knew that we had some folks coming out with really exciting research, like the episode that you just mentioned, Jen, with Jonathan Levav, he's a professor of marketing, we knew that he had stuff that was very top of mind. 00:05:55.895 --> 00:05:57.294 And so we would want to feature him. 00:05:57.314 --> 00:06:03.415 So we decided the lineup based on the professors themselves and all of the academic areas. 00:06:03.845 --> 00:06:09.695 One of the challenges with having a podcast that shows the breadth of the Graduate School of Business is that. 00:06:10.005 --> 00:06:10.765 Exactly that. 00:06:10.775 --> 00:06:12.105 It's not a niche show. 00:06:12.115 --> 00:06:13.655 We want to talk about AI. 00:06:13.675 --> 00:06:16.205 We want to talk about the return to work. 00:06:16.245 --> 00:06:18.555 We want to talk about negotiation. 00:06:18.555 --> 00:06:22.635 We want to talk about economics and the digital dollar. 00:06:22.644 --> 00:06:30.484 So we really have thirteen episodes that span just about anything that you could think of when it comes to leadership, business, and society. 00:06:30.594 --> 00:06:34.575 Jennifer-Lee: And obviously it comes down to the importance too of having a great host. 00:06:34.575 --> 00:06:37.405 How did you decide who got to host the podcast and why? 00:06:37.554 --> 00:06:38.125 Neil McPhedran: Good question. 00:06:38.264 --> 00:06:39.585 Jenny Luna: Yeah, that was tricky. 00:06:39.585 --> 00:06:50.909 We, in our initial brainstorms where we were concepting the show, thinking about what we wanted to do, we were thinking about who would be a great person to be on the other side of the mic interviewing faculty. 00:06:50.909 --> 00:06:53.010 So they had to have rapport with faculty. 00:06:53.010 --> 00:06:56.479 They had to have institutional knowledge of the Graduate School of Business. 00:06:56.479 --> 00:06:58.129 They had to be naturally curious. 00:06:58.719 --> 00:07:04.000 So we were all sitting around a room thinking about it, looked over at our colleague Kevin. 00:07:04.009 --> 00:07:06.290 He's been at Stanford for more than twenty years. 00:07:06.629 --> 00:07:11.180 He interviews faculty all the time, um, for his written pieces that he does. 00:07:11.530 --> 00:07:14.970 And we knew, okay, if Kevin's willing to do it, Kevin's the person. 00:07:15.210 --> 00:07:19.170 It was really important to us for this first season to pick someone internal. 00:07:19.240 --> 00:07:23.750 That way, again, like I said, the institutional knowledge was there, the rapport with faculty was there. 00:07:23.759 --> 00:07:27.240 He's already worked with many of the guests on other projects. 00:07:27.600 --> 00:07:34.860 We didn't want to just bring someone else in who really didn't understand the landscape and understand the tone of what the GSB is. 00:07:35.060 --> 00:07:37.610 Neil McPhedran: Plus, he's got a good voice for podcasting. 00:07:38.670 --> 00:07:40.430 Jenny Luna: Exactly, exactly. 00:07:40.540 --> 00:07:47.965 He's got a great voice and he, we've been able to work with him really intimately in training sessions and sort of hosting bootcamp. 00:07:47.965 --> 00:07:53.844 He had never hosted before, but I think he's really risen to the occasion and he's doing a fantastic job. 00:07:54.094 --> 00:07:54.724 Neil McPhedran: Oh, that's great. 00:07:54.924 --> 00:07:55.424 That's great. 00:07:55.534 --> 00:07:59.669 Curious, your team is beyond just podcasting. 00:07:59.729 --> 00:08:14.199 Your team does a lot of video, you've got a website, you've got a very active enewsletter, obviously your social channels are very robust, some of the most robust social channels of anyone else at Stanford. 00:08:14.279 --> 00:08:21.770 Why did you guys choose podcasting to lean into, to tell these stories, to share this research, so on and so forth? 00:08:22.135 --> 00:08:28.065 Jenny Luna: I love this question, Neil, because this is the question I always ask when someone says they want to make a podcast. 00:08:28.085 --> 00:08:29.585 Why does it have to be a podcast? 00:08:29.594 --> 00:08:33.395 Why can't it be a newsletter or a social media channel? 00:08:33.525 --> 00:08:35.684 So you know, I love podcasting. 00:08:35.754 --> 00:08:43.015 I really feel that podcasting is a channel that we should think about the same way we think about social media and newsletters and a website. 00:08:43.125 --> 00:08:47.180 We were not really in the podcast space as an institution. 00:08:47.189 --> 00:08:54.739 Again, we have these one off shows with different professors, like Matt Abrahams had Think Fast, Talk Smart, and Jonathan Burke had All Else Equal. 00:08:54.770 --> 00:09:00.359 We had a podcast about an event called View From the Top, but we didn't have one that really showed the GSB. 00:09:00.499 --> 00:09:05.439 And I think a podcast is, like I said, just as important as any other communications channel. 00:09:05.650 --> 00:09:11.530 So another thing that we were finding is we had professors coming to us and they were asking for podcasts. 00:09:11.569 --> 00:09:13.720 They were saying, I've been on other shows. 00:09:13.740 --> 00:09:15.510 I see these other shows we're making. 00:09:16.020 --> 00:09:19.650 Why don't we have a show or can you help me make my own show? 00:09:19.690 --> 00:09:26.260 And so the If/Then was really an answer to be able to have an in house podcast to have professors on. 00:09:26.270 --> 00:09:28.780 That way we could control the content a little bit more. 00:09:29.375 --> 00:09:34.985 And, you know, we, we're not a one stop shop to give every single faculty member on campus their own podcast. 00:09:35.655 --> 00:09:38.594 But by bringing it in house, we can have them all on as guests. 00:09:38.824 --> 00:09:48.064 Jennifer-Lee: And you guys are so successful at any podcast you touch, either if it's just with the professors or now with the Stanford School of Business podcast, If/Then. 00:09:48.145 --> 00:09:52.275 Why do you guys think you're so great at creating podcasts? 00:09:53.230 --> 00:09:55.820 Jenny Luna: Oh my gosh, what a complimentary question. 00:09:55.830 --> 00:09:56.790 Thanks Jen. 00:09:56.810 --> 00:10:07.400 Jennifer-Lee: Everyone always talks about, even here in Vancouver, and of course I know you guys through Neil, but I'm usually in discussions and everyone brings up the Stanford podcast. 00:10:07.400 --> 00:10:08.309 They're like, what about this one? 00:10:08.310 --> 00:10:08.769 This one? 00:10:09.080 --> 00:10:09.310 So. 00:10:10.094 --> 00:10:15.114 Jenny Luna: Yeah, I give a lot of credit to the channels we have that are already established. 00:10:15.234 --> 00:10:17.925 As Neil was saying, we already had a great social channel. 00:10:18.104 --> 00:10:30.444 Our brand team has been working for years to really make Stanford Graduate School of Business or Stanford GSB sort of top in the communications that we do in our branding, in our look, and our feel, and our reputation. 00:10:30.464 --> 00:10:35.880 So it's easy when the GSB LinkedIn shares a new podcast. 00:10:35.910 --> 00:10:40.890 People are going to go click on it because they really trust the GSB brand in a lot of ways. 00:10:40.960 --> 00:10:53.640 One thing I would like to say though is, you know, we are a department that has to cover all communication so when it comes to making a podcast, we hire out agencies and we work with partners who help us make the concept for the show. 00:10:53.650 --> 00:10:56.060 They help us editorially direct the show. 00:10:56.080 --> 00:10:58.060 They help us with publishing and marketing. 00:10:58.080 --> 00:11:02.090 So we're getting a lot of support from podcast agencies along the way. 00:11:02.190 --> 00:11:10.180 Jennifer-Lee: And I think that's an important thing that we've kind of talked to a little bit throughout this past season is the fact that it's not just you. 00:11:10.425 --> 00:11:12.805 And it's not just one person doing it. 00:11:12.855 --> 00:11:20.084 Either many of the faculty that are at the universities or colleges are wearing many hats or they're outsourcing some of the work to agencies. 00:11:20.085 --> 00:11:25.735 Because as you know, podcasts are a lot of work and they're not just a, hey, we're going to put it up. 00:11:25.744 --> 00:11:34.235 So, and a lot of you guys are doing additional jobs too, besides the podcast in your communications departments within your specific schools. 00:11:34.535 --> 00:11:35.605 Jenny Luna: Yeah, definitely. 00:11:35.665 --> 00:11:41.105 We're still doing newsletters or writing social media copy or we're writing articles for the website. 00:11:41.135 --> 00:11:46.504 So to think that we all, we do the whole podcast in house, I think that would really be too difficult. 00:11:46.555 --> 00:11:49.844 We really lean on our creative partners to help us concept. 00:11:49.844 --> 00:11:52.445 And they're out there doing only podcasting. 00:11:52.474 --> 00:11:59.055 So we learned so much from them and their recommendations when it comes to how we're going to put the show out and how we're going to structure the show. 00:11:59.314 --> 00:12:11.184 And a lot of decisions, honestly, that we would want to make internally because we have internal stakeholders and things that we need to do to make everything go smoothly from the institutional perspective. 00:12:11.265 --> 00:12:21.275 We really value these agencies because they're in the podcast world and they can turn to us and say, you know, I realize that you're beholden in X, Y, and Z way, but the quality is really going to suffer. 00:12:21.415 --> 00:12:30.470 And so they've really helped us up our quality by making more concessions in some of that internal stuff that happens in higher education. 00:12:30.650 --> 00:12:31.250 Neil McPhedran: That's great. 00:12:31.290 --> 00:12:36.479 So for If/Then, you engaged with a couple of agencies. 00:12:36.520 --> 00:12:43.179 There was one on the production side and the one on the marketing side once the show was ready to launch. 00:12:43.679 --> 00:12:51.200 Any insights you can share with other higher ed podcasters about that journey. 00:12:51.240 --> 00:13:00.970 And I know this show had a bit more budget, which was great, but there must've been a process you put in place to find those agency partners. 00:13:01.200 --> 00:13:03.270 And there obviously was a bit of a journey there. 00:13:03.270 --> 00:13:13.570 So anything you can share with fellow podcasters that are about to embark on a similar journey or are considering bringing in an outside agency partner. 00:13:14.130 --> 00:13:19.480 Jenny Luna: Yeah, we started, like we do most projects, with an RFP, a request for proposal. 00:13:19.490 --> 00:13:29.500 So we just honestly, by Google searches or by contacts we had, we reached out to probably eight podcast agencies and asked them to make us a proposal. 00:13:29.500 --> 00:13:31.019 We let them know what we were looking for. 00:13:31.020 --> 00:13:35.250 We wanted to see what ideas and costs and scope of work was out there. 00:13:35.280 --> 00:13:38.710 We narrowed that down to, I think, three top picks. 00:13:38.820 --> 00:13:46.780 It was really clear folks who spent time and looked at what the GSB was all about and looked at the podcast we made and made a proposal that tailored that. 00:13:46.950 --> 00:13:52.220 And then it was clear that other folks have a template that they send out to every possible client. 00:13:52.270 --> 00:13:57.980 So it was important to us that they had at least taken the time to look at our website, maybe listen to another podcast that we had. 00:13:58.100 --> 00:13:59.960 And again, we narrowed it down to three. 00:13:59.960 --> 00:14:08.450 We had a lot of meetings with these three, and then it was really important actually to see if that working relationship would work, how we would work with them creatively. 00:14:08.500 --> 00:14:11.605 Would they be able to come to campus when needed. 00:14:11.905 --> 00:14:19.475 And then we found a partner that we worked with really well out of New York, and they really came in and helped us concept the show. 00:14:19.825 --> 00:14:29.305 A lot of different agencies offer different things, but I think at the nascent stage, what we were really looking for was someone who could help us brainstorm the concept. 00:14:29.590 --> 00:14:31.050 Because that was square one. 00:14:31.050 --> 00:14:37.130 And we knew if we didn't nail the concept right away, we would get lost by the time we're on episode six or seven. 00:14:37.439 --> 00:14:41.879 So we actually did a really robust, creative brainstorm activity. 00:14:41.879 --> 00:14:44.089 And I think that set us up for success. 00:14:44.260 --> 00:15:02.500 Neil McPhedran: So even though your team had identified a podcast, you knew it was going to be the flagship, you'd obviously had budget approved, set aside, you still went through that strategic brainstorming session to really outline and figure out like, what is this podcast and so on and so forth. 00:15:02.510 --> 00:15:05.660 I think that's excellent that you guys still went through that whole process. 00:15:05.660 --> 00:15:06.340 And you're right. 00:15:06.760 --> 00:15:15.199 There's something to be said about having a plan and a strategy going in versus just like getting to episode six, as you said, and going like, okay, now what? 00:15:15.490 --> 00:15:16.020 Jenny Luna: Yeah. 00:15:16.250 --> 00:15:20.979 And one thing I want to add is we spent a lot of time in the discovery. 00:15:20.979 --> 00:15:28.635 So even before that creative brainstorm we had the podcast agency meet with faculty members just over a cup of coffee. 00:15:28.635 --> 00:15:36.175 We met with senior associate deans and we really just had it as a conversation to, you know, what is this professor's research about? 00:15:36.225 --> 00:15:38.064 What is the GSB all about? 00:15:38.095 --> 00:15:48.135 And so the agency could really, again, come to campus and get an idea of what Stanford is all about, what the GSB is all about, who are these professors, what are they working on? 00:15:48.165 --> 00:15:52.435 And so that discovery really helped inform the brainstorm. 00:15:53.010 --> 00:15:57.700 Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, and it's really important then once you have all those episodes, is to figure out your launch. 00:15:57.700 --> 00:16:02.220 So there's always discussion about this, of how many do we release? 00:16:02.250 --> 00:16:03.410 Is there a magic number. 00:16:03.440 --> 00:16:06.160 Do we release just one or do we release three? 00:16:06.440 --> 00:16:10.269 If people really enjoy what you're doing, they can kind of binge it like Netflix. 00:16:10.430 --> 00:16:13.200 What was the approach to launching once you guys had the concept? 00:16:13.365 --> 00:16:14.205 Jenny Luna: Yeah, you're right. 00:16:14.235 --> 00:16:17.625 Always something that people are asking about and thinking about. 00:16:17.685 --> 00:16:23.925 So we did have a pilot phase where we produced three pilot episodes, practiced episodes. 00:16:24.365 --> 00:16:30.815 Uh, it made sure that we were working with the agency correctly, made sure that the concept really stood up to what we were trying to do. 00:16:30.845 --> 00:16:36.275 This was also our proof point that we could take to the senior associate deans to let them know we were on track. 00:16:36.395 --> 00:16:41.725 And again, the big budget question, like, here's what we're making before we continue to make it. 00:16:41.825 --> 00:16:43.655 Do you want to weigh in in any way? 00:16:43.685 --> 00:16:50.665 Again, higher ed has a lot of different stakeholders that podcast producers out in the wild probably don't have. 00:16:50.875 --> 00:16:59.504 So we did have three pilots we started with, and then we started, I think we got six fully produced before we launched. 00:16:59.784 --> 00:17:05.845 Although I think our agency told us, when we asked them that question, what magic number should we have? 00:17:05.985 --> 00:17:07.275 They were like, it's never enough. 00:17:07.505 --> 00:17:13.785 You know, in terms of, if you could have the whole season done, or seven or eight episodes done, that would be ideal. 00:17:14.224 --> 00:17:23.474 Because there always is that crunch time after launch, when you're working on promoting episode one, two, three, but you're still editing episode six, seven, eight. 00:17:23.905 --> 00:17:28.615 And that's, for me, you know, always like the toughest time of the production cycle. 00:17:28.820 --> 00:17:29.139 Neil McPhedran: Yeah. 00:17:29.249 --> 00:17:30.919 Okay, so that's interesting. 00:17:30.919 --> 00:17:45.520 So you and the team basically developed three episodes and then shopped those around, if you will, or shared those around with all your key stakeholders on your end before you even sort of kept going. 00:17:45.520 --> 00:17:51.080 So even before you officially launched the show, that was still that internal process. 00:17:51.360 --> 00:17:51.739 Jenny Luna: Yes. 00:17:51.759 --> 00:18:04.920 And those three episodes ended up being really valuable as we continued to reach out to professors One of the biggest hurdles was trying to get professors to sign up to be a guest on the show without having a show to show them. 00:18:05.500 --> 00:18:12.660 So having the pilot episodes was really great because we could say, Dear Professor Admati, would you like to be on If/Then? 00:18:12.740 --> 00:18:17.230 Here's a sample episode with your colleague, Szu-chi Huang, that we did about robots. 00:18:17.780 --> 00:18:22.745 And so them being able to listen to a produced clip was really important. 00:18:22.745 --> 00:18:24.155 It helped get people on. 00:18:24.155 --> 00:18:30.914 And now that we have a fully produced first season, the number of professors who have signed on to do season two is probably triple. 00:18:30.924 --> 00:18:33.334 We, we received a lot of no's in the beginning. 00:18:33.700 --> 00:18:36.830 And it's because we didn't have anything to show. 00:18:36.990 --> 00:18:42.460 Jennifer-Lee: And now it shows you're legit and you're not going to ruin their reputation, so they want to be on the podcast. 00:18:42.469 --> 00:18:43.589 So that's great. 00:18:43.650 --> 00:18:44.780 You mentioned season two. 00:18:44.790 --> 00:18:47.570 Have you guys started creating episodes yet? 00:18:47.580 --> 00:18:48.439 Are you recording it? 00:18:48.469 --> 00:18:53.770 Are you kind of just in the brainstorming, uh, trying to figure out who you're going to line up for guests for season two? 00:18:54.080 --> 00:18:57.300 Jenny Luna: Yeah, all of those things actually done at once. 00:18:57.300 --> 00:19:01.439 Last week we had the team back out to do a major brainstorm. 00:19:01.460 --> 00:19:14.760 One thing we did, I'm really glad that we decided to do this, was we did an audience survey with season one so we could really see what people wanted more of, what they wanted less of, were the episodes too long, did you find them interesting? 00:19:14.760 --> 00:19:21.110 We asked a bunch of questions and that gave us actionable feedback, so we have that going forward. 00:19:21.110 --> 00:19:25.449 So we had the survey and then we use the survey results to do another brainstorm. 00:19:25.499 --> 00:19:26.280 What worked? 00:19:26.429 --> 00:19:26.979 What didn't? 00:19:27.339 --> 00:19:30.599 What are some opportunities to improve or change? 00:19:30.719 --> 00:19:37.429 Because again of the sort of tight production schedule on season one, we're now starting season two this early. 00:19:37.800 --> 00:19:50.389 And again, because we have something to show the professors, it's becoming a little bit easier, because we just say, you know, they're familiar with it, their colleagues have talked about it, they may have seen their colleagues share it on social media, so people are more on board. 00:19:50.390 --> 00:19:52.350 So we're sort of doing it all at once. 00:19:52.370 --> 00:19:55.130 Brainstorming for season two, identifying guests. 00:19:55.610 --> 00:20:01.220 And, um, even starting what we do prep sessions and have our very first recording tomorrow. 00:20:01.290 --> 00:20:01.710 Neil McPhedran: Oh, wow. 00:20:01.950 --> 00:20:05.539 Jennifer-Lee: Can we know when it's going to release, the season two? 00:20:05.540 --> 00:20:07.150 Are you guys still trying to figure that out? 00:20:07.790 --> 00:20:10.600 Jenny Luna: We will release again in late January. 00:20:10.640 --> 00:20:15.060 I think that will always be our cadence is kind of run January through July. 00:20:15.250 --> 00:20:15.730 Jennifer-Lee: Perfect. 00:20:15.730 --> 00:20:16.100 Can't wait. 00:20:16.270 --> 00:20:17.360 Neil McPhedran: So you guys are way ahead. 00:20:17.370 --> 00:20:17.910 That's excellent. 00:20:18.445 --> 00:20:24.665 Jenny Luna: This one requires a lot more branding and special logos, so it can be quite a lift. 00:20:24.965 --> 00:20:36.685 Again, and last year was, it felt like a really big crunch on the team right at the end of December, everybody's going on holiday break, but yet we're still trying to get this podcast ready for a January launch. 00:20:36.945 --> 00:20:45.555 Jennifer-Lee: Well, and I would say that's something big that you guys learned, but was there anything else that you learned in season one that you'd want to do differently for season two? 00:20:45.735 --> 00:20:49.815 Jenny Luna: Yeah, actually, this is a learning we just came across last week. 00:20:49.854 --> 00:20:51.455 We asked a lot of the professors. 00:20:51.455 --> 00:20:57.494 We're not only asking for ninety minutes of their time to record their episode, but we also asked to have prep sessions with them. 00:20:57.494 --> 00:20:59.754 So we can just, traditionally, we popped on a Zoom. 00:21:00.415 --> 00:21:02.185 Connected with them about their research. 00:21:02.185 --> 00:21:06.315 Maybe, do we want to talk body of work or do we want to drill in on one paper? 00:21:06.345 --> 00:21:07.795 We get a sense of them personally. 00:21:07.795 --> 00:21:08.815 They meet the team. 00:21:08.985 --> 00:21:12.474 We've done these, as I said, on Zoom because it's easier for everyone. 00:21:12.474 --> 00:21:19.555 But one thing we're going to try moving forward is actually having Kevin, our host, sit down and have a cup of coffee with the professors. 00:21:20.040 --> 00:21:22.470 And I think as you guys know, you make podcasts. 00:21:22.500 --> 00:21:27.810 When you're in person, when you're as conversational as possible, that's just going to make the content better. 00:21:28.179 --> 00:21:34.709 And I think what was happening is starting the very first interaction that the professor has with our podcast team is on Zoom. 00:21:35.329 --> 00:21:36.510 It's very formal. 00:21:36.520 --> 00:21:39.430 Someone, sends like an agenda beforehand. 00:21:39.670 --> 00:21:42.030 They are sort of going into teacher mode. 00:21:42.870 --> 00:21:51.489 And one thing we got from our surveys was the audience loved the more personal anecdotes from the professors and when we could get more conversational. 00:21:51.489 --> 00:21:54.249 So we're going to try to build that in from the start. 00:21:54.270 --> 00:22:06.110 So again, that prep session becomes a cup of coffee on campus between Kevin and the professor just catching up outside in our beautiful outdoor sunny campus. 00:22:06.560 --> 00:22:11.750 Versus logging on to Zoom, multiple people, an agenda, a chat, someone's screen sharing. 00:22:11.780 --> 00:22:14.970 I think that mentally kind of puts everybody in a different state. 00:22:15.129 --> 00:22:15.480 Jennifer-Lee: Yeah. 00:22:15.889 --> 00:22:16.570 Neil McPhedran: I like that. 00:22:16.610 --> 00:22:17.739 That's a really good idea. 00:22:17.740 --> 00:22:25.650 I know just like even the three of us here on this podcast right now, we talked about off the top, like we've hung out with you Jenny. 00:22:25.650 --> 00:22:33.929 So it definitely makes it a lot more comfortable when you have that real life familiarity. 00:22:33.939 --> 00:22:38.720 It's not always possible in this world we live in, but what a great idea. 00:22:39.060 --> 00:22:48.620 And I think that's a really good insight for us in the higher ed space where typically it is a campus and you are gathering in the same place. 00:22:48.629 --> 00:22:52.100 So there is more opportunity to have that in real life for sure. 00:22:52.179 --> 00:22:54.784 Jennifer-Lee: I'd rather be having coffee with Jenny right now in person. 00:22:55.215 --> 00:22:56.404 Neil McPhedran: Yes, yes, yes, for sure. 00:22:56.405 --> 00:22:57.485 Jenny Luna: That would be nice. 00:22:57.535 --> 00:23:10.455 One other thing that we learned, and I wouldn't say it's because we didn't do it right the first time, but something we did, and I'm so glad that we did, was right at the beginning of the brainstorming, we came up with a persona who was our listener. 00:23:10.765 --> 00:23:25.150 So we did an exercise where we all sort of weighed in on, literally down to what this person likes to do for fun, what their name is, what they do for work, what sorts of things they're thinking about, what they grapple with, what other podcasts they listen to. 00:23:25.550 --> 00:23:31.799 And so throughout season one, when we were making things, we were always asking back toward our persona. 00:23:32.205 --> 00:23:34.055 What is the person going to take away from it? 00:23:34.075 --> 00:23:35.245 What are they learning from it? 00:23:35.315 --> 00:23:43.485 And when we did all of our brainstorming for season two, we looked at back, you know, are we reaching this persona that we created? 00:23:44.055 --> 00:23:52.345 And if not, do we want to reach a new persona or do we need to change the show in some way to make sure that we are reaching this persona that we want to reach? 00:23:52.345 --> 00:24:02.679 So again, that was something that podcast agency we work with recommended we do right out the gate and it's seriously been like such a guiding force through the production of If/Then. 00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:03.680 Neil McPhedran: That's funny. 00:24:04.120 --> 00:24:05.810 I want to jump back to the launch. 00:24:05.880 --> 00:24:13.759 So when you did actually launch, uh, did you have a teaser or a trailer? 00:24:14.149 --> 00:24:23.320 Um, did you put the teaser trailer out there and then a week later, two weeks later, drop your first episode or what was that actual launch to the audience? 00:24:23.795 --> 00:24:26.105 Jenny Luna: Pretty much what you had said, Neil, we did. 00:24:26.105 --> 00:24:34.975 We launched a trailer a week before, which again, when I talked about how production got really busy, we didn't make time for that. 00:24:34.985 --> 00:24:44.015 So that would have been something I learned I would have done sooner in the process of production is making that trailer kind of as you were making those early episodes. 00:24:44.025 --> 00:24:46.580 Versus, oh shoot, we've got to put a trailer out. 00:24:46.870 --> 00:24:48.550 It did feel a little last minute. 00:24:48.889 --> 00:24:54.499 Neil McPhedran: And then you mean, have the trailer live for longer than your official launch is what you're saying, potentially. 00:24:54.825 --> 00:24:57.585 Jenny Luna: Or maybe just start working on it sooner. 00:24:57.605 --> 00:25:04.785 I, but we did have it ready for a week before, and then we launched with two episodes, which I, again, had never done before. 00:25:04.785 --> 00:25:08.124 And that was the recommendation of the podcast agency that we worked with. 00:25:08.565 --> 00:25:12.294 Because people can come and they can choose right away. 00:25:12.445 --> 00:25:15.594 I really like to think of podcast episodes like a menu. 00:25:15.784 --> 00:25:20.155 People want to come and order what looks the most delicious to their ears, let's say. 00:25:20.155 --> 00:25:26.554 So we launched with our two strongest right out of the gate so that people could come to the show and then pick which one. 00:25:26.735 --> 00:25:29.624 Hopefully like it enough that they then listen to the second one. 00:25:29.844 --> 00:25:33.305 By the time that has happened, the third one is coming out. 00:25:33.465 --> 00:25:38.275 Jennifer-Lee: Something else that I noticed you guys do really well too is your YouTube channel. 00:25:38.615 --> 00:25:51.540 Um, because I've looked at lots of other podcasts that have similar followings to you or notoriety and they can get quite a bit of views, but their engagement in their comment section is not as hot as yours. 00:25:51.560 --> 00:25:54.580 I noticed that in some of the episodes you guys have a ton of comments. 00:25:54.600 --> 00:25:59.790 What do you think is so engaging about If/Then on a YouTube channel? 00:26:00.189 --> 00:26:04.390 Jenny Luna: Yes, YouTube is a equally important part of our strategy for podcasting. 00:26:04.410 --> 00:26:10.730 And we've had a lot of success there, honestly, because the, the channel itself was already so healthy and robust. 00:26:10.740 --> 00:26:13.530 People were coming to us for content. 00:26:13.539 --> 00:26:15.130 So adding the podcast there. 00:26:15.210 --> 00:26:19.880 And we used to not show comments, but we decided to allow comments. 00:26:19.880 --> 00:26:23.485 And that's really upped the engagement to podcasting as well. 00:26:23.675 --> 00:26:31.855 We weren't ready to do video, and so they are up there without any video, and being a podcaster and an audio person, I think that's okay. 00:26:31.855 --> 00:26:38.874 I think it works well with the really nice logo, not needing it to actually be the video interaction between the host and the guest. 00:26:38.944 --> 00:26:43.285 And we share out the YouTube link in the same way we share out Spotify. 00:26:43.285 --> 00:26:47.485 We usually do Spotify, Apple, YouTube, and then let the user pick. 00:26:47.735 --> 00:26:51.035 If they listen on a different app, they can do that on their phone too. 00:26:51.379 --> 00:26:54.179 Jennifer-Lee: You guys are doing it totally proper. 00:26:54.189 --> 00:27:04.600 We had somebody last year that was big into YouTube that teaches at NYU and he said, doesn't matter if you have video, you just have to be on YouTube. 00:27:04.769 --> 00:27:08.169 And you can have a placard with a moving bar, he said, just be on YouTube. 00:27:08.209 --> 00:27:08.600 Jenny Luna: Yeah. 00:27:08.629 --> 00:27:16.639 I, again, like I'm at old school, always want to just be in the podcast world, but that's where, where people are listening and that's how they're finding us. 00:27:16.649 --> 00:27:19.775 The searchability is so much better on YouTube too. 00:27:19.805 --> 00:27:24.665 I'm sure if you just type in YouTube Stanford GSB podcast, it will come up. 00:27:24.764 --> 00:27:28.735 I don't think that's the same, you know, in Google, you might have to sift through a few more things. 00:27:28.745 --> 00:27:31.585 So the searchability on YouTube just makes it really easy. 00:27:32.120 --> 00:27:38.980 Jennifer-Lee: Actually, when I googled your podcast to listen to today and I put, If/Then, the YouTube came up first before Spotify or anything like that. 00:27:39.180 --> 00:27:44.020 YouTube is important, and I'm not going to get into this like tangent, but YouTube is important. 00:27:44.089 --> 00:27:52.325 But there's still no correlation yet if we're actually watching the person at the microphone versus if we're just listening to podcasts with the moving bar. 00:27:52.385 --> 00:27:57.035 You just have to be there for searching and be able to listen to it somehow. 00:27:57.035 --> 00:28:00.095 But anyways, that's another discussion for another day. 00:28:00.155 --> 00:28:08.095 Neil McPhedran: I know there was a number of launch slash growth tactics that you and your team executed again with help from an agency. 00:28:08.125 --> 00:28:12.245 I believe when you told me before you did some podcast swaps with other shows. 00:28:12.625 --> 00:28:17.945 There was some paid budget that went behind things and organic tactics and PR. 00:28:18.165 --> 00:28:20.715 There was a lot of things that your team did. 00:28:21.024 --> 00:28:34.775 So maybe without going too, too deep into each one of those, but just curious, which were some of those growth tactics, strategies that you felt worked that you're going to be leaning into in season two again? 00:28:35.075 --> 00:28:41.205 Jenny Luna: We had underestimated the power of our internal comms and sort of our internal audiences. 00:28:41.205 --> 00:28:44.825 And when I say internally, I mean sort of things that Stanford does. 00:28:45.065 --> 00:28:51.524 So yes, we did cross promos and yes, we did paid budget and we saw uptick listeners for that. 00:28:51.565 --> 00:29:00.055 But again, we underestimated how well getting shared in Stanford's main alumni newsletter would do and Stanford's main social media channel. 00:29:00.065 --> 00:29:07.115 So we had really built out a communications plan to go all across Stanford in hopes that they would share that we had launched a new podcast. 00:29:07.385 --> 00:29:10.115 They did, and we saw really good results from that. 00:29:10.214 --> 00:29:10.625 Neil McPhedran: That's great. 00:29:10.850 --> 00:29:20.709 So you'll be leaning into that for launching season two and then obviously working off of the base of followers that you've created for season one as well. 00:29:20.860 --> 00:29:21.979 Jenny Luna: Yeah, definitely. 00:29:22.060 --> 00:29:22.479 Neil McPhedran: That's great. 00:29:22.834 --> 00:29:25.534 That's a really great insight for you to share with us. 00:29:25.534 --> 00:29:25.925 Thank you. 00:29:26.054 --> 00:29:30.384 Jenny, it's been wonderful having you on the show again, and thank you for all of your insights. 00:29:30.384 --> 00:29:34.245 There's some really good nuggets there, I think, for all of us. 00:29:34.414 --> 00:29:36.624 Jen, we need to find our own persona. 00:29:36.624 --> 00:29:38.174 I think that was a really good insight. 00:29:38.205 --> 00:29:44.205 We have not thought about that, and we need to come up with a name for the Continuing Studies persona. 00:29:44.334 --> 00:29:45.104 Any thoughts? 00:29:45.205 --> 00:29:45.784 Jennifer-Lee: I'm excited. 00:29:45.784 --> 00:29:46.965 I'm already thinking about this, Neil. 00:29:47.164 --> 00:29:48.254 Her name is Janine. 00:29:48.754 --> 00:29:55.310 She likes Starbucks and she walks her dog on the seawall while listening to our podcast. 00:29:55.635 --> 00:29:59.745 Neil McPhedran: Okay, I think we might need to dig a little bit deeper, but I like the start of that. 00:29:59.785 --> 00:30:00.545 That's a good start. 00:30:00.825 --> 00:30:05.495 I'm down with the name too, you know, I feel like it's got a little bit of you and a little bit of me in the name. 00:30:05.495 --> 00:30:06.095 So, okay. 00:30:07.105 --> 00:30:07.405 We'll start there. 00:30:07.405 --> 00:30:08.315 Jenny Luna: Can I add something? 00:30:08.595 --> 00:30:10.185 Can I add something about Janine? 00:30:11.225 --> 00:30:11.725 Neil McPhedran: Please. 00:30:12.195 --> 00:30:24.955 Jenny Luna: Janine has a communications background and works in higher ed, and she's had not only her boss, but multiple stakeholders at her organization approach her and say, I'm seeing a lot of our competitors have podcasts. 00:30:25.005 --> 00:30:26.564 I need you to make a podcast, please. 00:30:26.835 --> 00:30:31.255 And she doesn't have experience in audio or podcasting, so she's gotta go figure out. 00:30:31.905 --> 00:30:33.325 A, how do I make a podcast? 00:30:33.355 --> 00:30:34.895 B, how do I make it good? 00:30:34.905 --> 00:30:35.625 And where do I start? 00:30:36.415 --> 00:30:36.995 Neil McPhedran: That's brilliant. 00:30:36.995 --> 00:30:38.145 Jennifer-Lee: And that's why she comes to Neil and I. 00:30:38.225 --> 00:30:38.585 I love it. 00:30:38.585 --> 00:30:44.935 Neil McPhedran: I think we need Jenny on our Continuing Studies podcast more and giving us these great ideas. 00:30:45.935 --> 00:30:46.435 Jennifer-Lee: I know. 00:30:46.435 --> 00:30:47.494 Neil McPhedran: Yeah. 00:30:47.495 --> 00:30:49.525 Well, thanks so much for joining us today. 00:30:49.555 --> 00:30:50.645 It's been wonderful. 00:30:50.655 --> 00:30:52.895 Some really good insights for the audience. 00:30:52.955 --> 00:30:53.595 Thank you so much. 00:30:53.855 --> 00:30:56.055 Jennifer-Lee: Thank you so much, Jenny, for coming back on. 00:30:56.065 --> 00:30:57.535 Hope to have you back again. 00:30:58.525 --> 00:30:59.535 Jenny Luna: Thank you so much. 00:30:59.565 --> 00:31:00.525 Talk to you both soon. 00:31:01.035 --> 00:31:01.285 Neil McPhedran: Great. 00:31:01.285 --> 00:31:01.825 Thanks, Jenny. 00:31:02.570 --> 00:31:03.010 Jennifer-Lee: Thanks. 00:31:03.360 --> 00:31:03.550 Bye. 00:31:04.810 --> 00:31:05.440 Neil McPhedran: Okay, Jen. 00:31:05.770 --> 00:31:07.780 That was great. 00:31:07.850 --> 00:31:14.550 I don't know about you, but as usual, got some wonderful insights in this episode. 00:31:14.600 --> 00:31:24.670 I really liked the persona and I think Jenny's right that that is such a great way to think about your audience. 00:31:25.000 --> 00:31:31.775 But also, it's a good way to really rally around the entire team. 00:31:31.895 --> 00:31:36.655 It's a great way for the entire team to rally around who that audience is and to define them. 00:31:37.005 --> 00:31:45.535 And then coming up with a name for that audience member and that persona, where you can refer to that person in such a familiar way. 00:31:45.565 --> 00:31:54.845 I think is super helpful, but just even just defining what that, who that person is, I think is super helpful for us all to think about. 00:31:55.125 --> 00:32:02.275 And as we talked about in the episode, when we were chatting with Jenny is, we definitely need to figure this out for our own podcast. 00:32:03.230 --> 00:32:06.950 Jennifer-Lee: Well, she already created this one, Janine, she already went deep into it. 00:32:06.950 --> 00:32:08.620 I feel like that is our listener. 00:32:08.620 --> 00:32:10.290 Jenny is on the ball. 00:32:10.590 --> 00:32:11.240 They're on point. 00:32:11.240 --> 00:32:14.210 Something else that they did, I tell people this all the time. 00:32:14.210 --> 00:32:18.270 They don't take enough time to do it is always figure out your concept. 00:32:18.290 --> 00:32:19.960 Like really dig deep. 00:32:20.100 --> 00:32:21.290 Brainstorm. 00:32:21.510 --> 00:32:23.950 That's what I've done with many of the clients I've worked with. 00:32:23.950 --> 00:32:24.700 Same thing for you. 00:32:24.700 --> 00:32:32.170 And it's like, a lot of times people just want to get to the microphone, but there's so much work before you get to the microphone and hit record. 00:32:32.410 --> 00:32:34.430 And that's why their podcasts are successful. 00:32:34.500 --> 00:32:42.415 So until next time, I'm excited to find out more about the wonderful people making Continuing Studies podcasts. 00:32:42.735 --> 00:32:43.775 Neil McPhedran: Totally agree, Jen. 00:32:44.205 --> 00:32:47.315 Okay, so why don't you read us out? 00:32:47.375 --> 00:32:52.375 Jennifer-Lee: So thank you for tuning in to the Continuing Studies podcast, a podcast for higher education podcasters. 00:32:52.705 --> 00:32:55.735 We hope you found this episode informative and inspiring. 00:32:55.735 --> 00:33:02.340 If you enjoyed the show, we encourage you to follow and subscribe to our podcast on your preferred platform so you'll never miss an episode. 00:33:02.350 --> 00:33:10.960 But if you found this episode particularly valuable, please consider sharing it with your friends and colleagues who also might be interested in higher education podcasts. 00:33:11.280 --> 00:33:20.300 We also invite you to join your peers on HigherEdPods.com, where you can connect with other podcasters in higher education and learn from others in the field. 00:33:20.660 --> 00:33:23.100 Thank you for being part of our community. 00:33:23.150 --> 00:33:30.320 We look forward to continuing to bring you valuable insights and conversations around a higher education podcast. 00:33:30.600 --> 00:33:31.790 See you in the next episode.