Jenny Luna: We didn't want to just bring someone else in who really didn't understand the landscape and understand the tone of what the GSB is.
Neil McPhedran: Welcome to Continuing Studies, a podcast for higher education podcasters to learn and get inspired.
I'm Neil McPhedran, founder of Podium Podcasts, an agency for higher education podcasters.
Jennifer-Lee: And I'm Jennifer-Lee, founder of Jpod Creations, podcasting is broadcasting.
We want you to know you're not alone.
In fact, there are many of you higher ed podcasters out there and we can all learn from each other.
Please also join our community at HigherEdsPods.com.
Neil McPhedran: Okay, Jen, we've got the two Jennifer episode, you and we interview in this episode, Jenny Luna.
Jenny squared.
We interview Jenny Luna from Stanford Graduate School of Business.
And for you long time listeners, you'll remember that Jenny was actually our first episode guest, and she's been kind enough to come back again.
And this time we had her chatting about a new podcast that the Graduate School of Business launched in the last year, since we last chatted with her.
That podcast is called If/Then, and it's the new flagship podcast from the Stanford Graduate School of Business.
Jenny talks a little bit about what it is, um, but we wanted her to come back on to talk about how this podcast is quite different from the other podcasts that Jenny works on at the Graduate School of Business.
Jennifer-Lee: And Jenny gives us all her secrets of why they're the masters of successful podcasts at the Stanford GSB.
Neil McPhedran: Okay, so let's get into it with Jenny.
Welcome, Jenny.
It's so great to have you here on Continuing Studies.
Jenny Luna: Yeah, it's great to be back.
Thanks for having me.
Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, I'm excited to see Jenny again.
I haven't talked to you for over a year and I got to meet you in person last year at the podcast movement.
And you took Neil and I somewhere very cool and different.
We went to the Meow Wolf Museum.
I don't know how to explain it to people what I went to, but it was pretty interesting.
Jenny Luna: Yeah, that was crazy.
I've always wanted to go and it was so fun that I just told you guys, okay, we're going somewhere.
Don't ask questions.
We're just going to show up.
And this wacky, colorful, artsy, crafty, crazy explosion of color.
Neil McPhedran: Yeah.
I don't know how to explain it either.
I just got a notification on, from Apple that I was at the end of my iCloud room.
And so I had, I was just going through a bunch of photos this weekend and there's all these videos and photos from that.
That was, yeah, that was fun.
Anyone who has never been to a Meow Wolf who's listening, do go check them out.
I know we went to the one in Denver.
Um, you know, I think there's one in Vegas.
I think that there's a couple of them out there, but definitely go.
So, but that's not why we have you here, Jenny, today.
This is your second time on Continuing Studies.
Thanks for coming back.
You're our first repeat guest.
And we wanted to today chat about a new podcast that, uh, the Graduate School of Business launched, Stanford Graduate School of Business.
Called If/Then.
And you've just wrapped up season one, I think about a month ago, and you're actually starting to work on season two.
So we thought it would be a great time to have you on to talk about that journey and that process.
And being a higher ed pod vet as you are, this is, I think, maybe, what is this, your third or fourth podcast you worked on and launched at the GSB?
Jenny Luna: Yeah, this is about fourth show that we've launched, but this one is what we call the flagship.
So it was really the first show we worked on that we wanted to represent the Graduate School of Business as a whole.
Neil McPhedran: Right.
So maybe you could just quickly give us a quick explanation on If/Then as a podcast.
And again, like, as you said, it's the flagship, so it's a bit different from the other podcasts, which are, you know, a professor or a couple of professors are the hosts and you've essentially sort of helped them stand up their shows.
This one is across the board and it's the flagship coming from the Graduate School of Business.
So maybe you could sort of explain a little bit of what it's all about for our audience.
Jenny Luna: Yeah.
If/Then, the official title is If/Then, Research Findings to Help Us Navigate Complex Issues in Business, Leadership, and Society.
Long title, mostly for SEO, but we could talk more about that later.
If/Then has faculty members on to talk specifically about their research because a big messaging goal of the Graduate School of Business is to let our audiences know truly how the work that our professors do in research changes the world.
How it changes the way we think, how it changes policy, how it changes management.
And so our goal is each episode features one faculty really detailing a paper or their body of work, and we use storytelling to get that message across.
So we only go with tenure line faculty, which is different for us, but for the first season, it was really important to do only tenure line faculty and represent every academic area across the institution.
Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, I found it really interesting, especially taking a look at some of the episode titles.
You have some controversial topics like, do people need to go back to the office space?
Is Zoom effective for communication?
And I always thought that was something that maybe we were done with talking about, but we're not because it is such a big contentious point.
So it was really interesting to listen to that episode.
So really, how do you guys decide for your season what is going to be important to showcase Stanford School of Business?
Jenny Luna: What we did for the first season is we actually based it really on the faculty members themselves.
So we knew that we had some folks coming out with really exciting research, like the episode that you just mentioned, Jen, with Jonathan Levav, he's a professor of marketing, we knew that he had stuff that was very top of mind.
And so we would want to feature him.
So we decided the lineup based on the professors themselves and all of the academic areas.
One of the challenges with having a podcast that shows the breadth of the Graduate School of Business is that.
Exactly that.
It's not a niche show.
We want to talk about AI.
We want to talk about the return to work.
We want to talk about negotiation.
We want to talk about economics and the digital dollar.
So we really have thirteen episodes that span just about anything that you could think of when it comes to leadership, business, and society.
Jennifer-Lee: And obviously it comes down to the importance too of having a great host.
How did you decide who got to host the podcast and why?
Neil McPhedran: Good question.
Jenny Luna: Yeah, that was tricky.
We, in our initial brainstorms where we were concepting the show, thinking about what we wanted to do, we were thinking about who would be a great person to be on the other side of the mic interviewing faculty.
So they had to have rapport with faculty.
They had to have institutional knowledge of the Graduate School of Business.
They had to be naturally curious.
So we were all sitting around a room thinking about it, looked over at our colleague Kevin.
He's been at Stanford for more than twenty years.
He interviews faculty all the time, um, for his written pieces that he does.
And we knew, okay, if Kevin's willing to do it, Kevin's the person.
It was really important to us for this first season to pick someone internal.
That way, again, like I said, the institutional knowledge was there, the rapport with faculty was there.
He's already worked with many of the guests on other projects.
We didn't want to just bring someone else in who really didn't understand the landscape and understand the tone of what the GSB is.
Neil McPhedran: Plus, he's got a good voice for podcasting.
Jenny Luna: Exactly, exactly.
He's got a great voice and he, we've been able to work with him really intimately in training sessions and sort of hosting bootcamp.
He had never hosted before, but I think he's really risen to the occasion and he's doing a fantastic job.
Neil McPhedran: Oh, that's great.
That's great.
Curious, your team is beyond just podcasting.
Your team does a lot of video, you've got a website, you've got a very active enewsletter, obviously your social channels are very robust, some of the most robust social channels of anyone else at Stanford.
Why did you guys choose podcasting to lean into, to tell these stories, to share this research, so on and so forth?
Jenny Luna: I love this question, Neil, because this is the question I always ask when someone says they want to make a podcast.
Why does it have to be a podcast?
Why can't it be a newsletter or a social media channel?
So you know, I love podcasting.
I really feel that podcasting is a channel that we should think about the same way we think about social media and newsletters and a website.
We were not really in the podcast space as an institution.
Again, we have these one off shows with different professors, like Matt Abrahams had Think Fast, Talk Smart, and Jonathan Burke had All Else Equal.
We had a podcast about an event called View From the Top, but we didn't have one that really showed the GSB.
And I think a podcast is, like I said, just as important as any other communications channel.
So another thing that we were finding is we had professors coming to us and they were asking for podcasts.
They were saying, I've been on other shows.
I see these other shows we're making.
Why don't we have a show or can you help me make my own show?
And so the If/Then was really an answer to be able to have an in house podcast to have professors on.
That way we could control the content a little bit more.
And, you know, we, we're not a one stop shop to give every single faculty member on campus their own podcast.
But by bringing it in house, we can have them all on as guests.
Jennifer-Lee: And you guys are so successful at any podcast you touch, either if it's just with the professors or now with the Stanford School of Business podcast, If/Then.
Why do you guys think you're so great at creating podcasts?
Jenny Luna: Oh my gosh, what a complimentary question.
Thanks Jen.
Jennifer-Lee: Everyone always talks about, even here in Vancouver, and of course I know you guys through Neil, but I'm usually in discussions and everyone brings up the Stanford podcast.
They're like, what about this one?
This one?
So.
Jenny Luna: Yeah, I give a lot of credit to the channels we have that are already established.
As Neil was saying, we already had a great social channel.
Our brand team has been working for years to really make Stanford Graduate School of Business or Stanford GSB sort of top in the communications that we do in our branding, in our look, and our feel, and our reputation.
So it's easy when the GSB LinkedIn shares a new podcast.
People are going to go click on it because they really trust the GSB brand in a lot of ways.
One thing I would like to say though is, you know, we are a department that has to cover all communication so when it comes to making a podcast, we hire out agencies and we work with partners who help us make the concept for the show.
They help us editorially direct the show.
They help us with publishing and marketing.
So we're getting a lot of support from podcast agencies along the way.
Jennifer-Lee: And I think that's an important thing that we've kind of talked to a little bit throughout this past season is the fact that it's not just you.
And it's not just one person doing it.
Either many of the faculty that are at the universities or colleges are wearing many hats or they're outsourcing some of the work to agencies.
Because as you know, podcasts are a lot of work and they're not just a, hey, we're going to put it up.
So, and a lot of you guys are doing additional jobs too, besides the podcast in your communications departments within your specific schools.
Jenny Luna: Yeah, definitely.
We're still doing newsletters or writing social media copy or we're writing articles for the website.
So to think that we all, we do the whole podcast in house, I think that would really be too difficult.
We really lean on our creative partners to help us concept.
And they're out there doing only podcasting.
So we learned so much from them and their recommendations when it comes to how we're going to put the show out and how we're going to structure the show.
And a lot of decisions, honestly, that we would want to make internally because we have internal stakeholders and things that we need to do to make everything go smoothly from the institutional perspective.
We really value these agencies because they're in the podcast world and they can turn to us and say, you know, I realize that you're beholden in X, Y, and Z way, but the quality is really going to suffer.
And so they've really helped us up our quality by making more concessions in some of that internal stuff that happens in higher education.
Neil McPhedran: That's great.
So for If/Then, you engaged with a couple of agencies.
There was one on the production side and the one on the marketing side once the show was ready to launch.
Any insights you can share with other higher ed podcasters about that journey.
And I know this show had a bit more budget, which was great, but there must've been a process you put in place to find those agency partners.
And there obviously was a bit of a journey there.
So anything you can share with fellow podcasters that are about to embark on a similar journey or are considering bringing in an outside agency partner.
Jenny Luna: Yeah, we started, like we do most projects, with an RFP, a request for proposal.
So we just honestly, by Google searches or by contacts we had, we reached out to probably eight podcast agencies and asked them to make us a proposal.
We let them know what we were looking for.
We wanted to see what ideas and costs and scope of work was out there.
We narrowed that down to, I think, three top picks.
It was really clear folks who spent time and looked at what the GSB was all about and looked at the podcast we made and made a proposal that tailored that.
And then it was clear that other folks have a template that they send out to every possible client.
So it was important to us that they had at least taken the time to look at our website, maybe listen to another podcast that we had.
And again, we narrowed it down to three.
We had a lot of meetings with these three, and then it was really important actually to see if that working relationship would work, how we would work with them creatively.
Would they be able to come to campus when needed.
And then we found a partner that we worked with really well out of New York, and they really came in and helped us concept the show.
A lot of different agencies offer different things, but I think at the nascent stage, what we were really looking for was someone who could help us brainstorm the concept.
Because that was square one.
And we knew if we didn't nail the concept right away, we would get lost by the time we're on episode six or seven.
So we actually did a really robust, creative brainstorm activity.
And I think that set us up for success.
Neil McPhedran: So even though your team had identified a podcast, you knew it was going to be the flagship, you'd obviously had budget approved, set aside, you still went through that strategic brainstorming session to really outline and figure out like, what is this podcast and so on and so forth.
I think that's excellent that you guys still went through that whole process.
And you're right.
There's something to be said about having a plan and a strategy going in versus just like getting to episode six, as you said, and going like, okay, now what?
Jenny Luna: Yeah.
And one thing I want to add is we spent a lot of time in the discovery.
So even before that creative brainstorm we had the podcast agency meet with faculty members just over a cup of coffee.
We met with senior associate deans and we really just had it as a conversation to, you know, what is this professor's research about?
What is the GSB all about?
And so the agency could really, again, come to campus and get an idea of what Stanford is all about, what the GSB is all about, who are these professors, what are they working on?
And so that discovery really helped inform the brainstorm.
Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, and it's really important then once you have all those episodes, is to figure out your launch.
So there's always discussion about this, of how many do we release?
Is there a magic number.
Do we release just one or do we release three?
If people really enjoy what you're doing, they can kind of binge it like Netflix.
What was the approach to launching once you guys had the concept?
Jenny Luna: Yeah, you're right.
Always something that people are asking about and thinking about.
So we did have a pilot phase where we produced three pilot episodes, practiced episodes.
Uh, it made sure that we were working with the agency correctly, made sure that the concept really stood up to what we were trying to do.
This was also our proof point that we could take to the senior associate deans to let them know we were on track.
And again, the big budget question, like, here's what we're making before we continue to make it.
Do you want to weigh in in any way?
Again, higher ed has a lot of different stakeholders that podcast producers out in the wild probably don't have.
So we did have three pilots we started with, and then we started, I think we got six fully produced before we launched.
Although I think our agency told us, when we asked them that question, what magic number should we have?
They were like, it's never enough.
You know, in terms of, if you could have the whole season done, or seven or eight episodes done, that would be ideal.
Because there always is that crunch time after launch, when you're working on promoting episode one, two, three, but you're still editing episode six, seven, eight.
And that's, for me, you know, always like the toughest time of the production cycle.
Neil McPhedran: Yeah.
Okay, so that's interesting.
So you and the team basically developed three episodes and then shopped those around, if you will, or shared those around with all your key stakeholders on your end before you even sort of kept going.
So even before you officially launched the show, that was still that internal process.
Jenny Luna: Yes.
And those three episodes ended up being really valuable as we continued to reach out to professors One of the biggest hurdles was trying to get professors to sign up to be a guest on the show without having a show to show them.
So having the pilot episodes was really great because we could say, Dear Professor Admati, would you like to be on If/Then?
Here's a sample episode with your colleague, Szu-chi Huang, that we did about robots.
And so them being able to listen to a produced clip was really important.
It helped get people on.
And now that we have a fully produced first season, the number of professors who have signed on to do season two is probably triple.
We, we received a lot of no's in the beginning.
And it's because we didn't have anything to show.
Jennifer-Lee: And now it shows you're legit and you're not going to ruin their reputation, so they want to be on the podcast.
So that's great.
You mentioned season two.
Have you guys started creating episodes yet?
Are you recording it?
Are you kind of just in the brainstorming, uh, trying to figure out who you're going to line up for guests for season two?
Jenny Luna: Yeah, all of those things actually done at once.
Last week we had the team back out to do a major brainstorm.
One thing we did, I'm really glad that we decided to do this, was we did an audience survey with season one so we could really see what people wanted more of, what they wanted less of, were the episodes too long, did you find them interesting?
We asked a bunch of questions and that gave us actionable feedback, so we have that going forward.
So we had the survey and then we use the survey results to do another brainstorm.
What worked?
What didn't?
What are some opportunities to improve or change?
Because again of the sort of tight production schedule on season one, we're now starting season two this early.
And again, because we have something to show the professors, it's becoming a little bit easier, because we just say, you know, they're familiar with it, their colleagues have talked about it, they may have seen their colleagues share it on social media, so people are more on board.
So we're sort of doing it all at once.
Brainstorming for season two, identifying guests.
And, um, even starting what we do prep sessions and have our very first recording tomorrow.
Neil McPhedran: Oh, wow.
Jennifer-Lee: Can we know when it's going to release, the season two?
Are you guys still trying to figure that out?
Jenny Luna: We will release again in late January.
I think that will always be our cadence is kind of run January through July.
Jennifer-Lee: Perfect.
Can't wait.
Neil McPhedran: So you guys are way ahead.
That's excellent.
Jenny Luna: This one requires a lot more branding and special logos, so it can be quite a lift.
Again, and last year was, it felt like a really big crunch on the team right at the end of December, everybody's going on holiday break, but yet we're still trying to get this podcast ready for a January launch.
Jennifer-Lee: Well, and I would say that's something big that you guys learned, but was there anything else that you learned in season one that you'd want to do differently for season two?
Jenny Luna: Yeah, actually, this is a learning we just came across last week.
We asked a lot of the professors.
We're not only asking for ninety minutes of their time to record their episode, but we also asked to have prep sessions with them.
So we can just, traditionally, we popped on a Zoom.
Connected with them about their research.
Maybe, do we want to talk body of work or do we want to drill in on one paper?
We get a sense of them personally.
They meet the team.
We've done these, as I said, on Zoom because it's easier for everyone.
But one thing we're going to try moving forward is actually having Kevin, our host, sit down and have a cup of coffee with the professors.
And I think as you guys know, you make podcasts.
When you're in person, when you're as conversational as possible, that's just going to make the content better.
And I think what was happening is starting the very first interaction that the professor has with our podcast team is on Zoom.
It's very formal.
Someone, sends like an agenda beforehand.
They are sort of going into teacher mode.
And one thing we got from our surveys was the audience loved the more personal anecdotes from the professors and when we could get more conversational.
So we're going to try to build that in from the start.
So again, that prep session becomes a cup of coffee on campus between Kevin and the professor just catching up outside in our beautiful outdoor sunny campus.
Versus logging on to Zoom, multiple people, an agenda, a chat, someone's screen sharing.
I think that mentally kind of puts everybody in a different state.
Jennifer-Lee: Yeah.
Neil McPhedran: I like that.
That's a really good idea.
I know just like even the three of us here on this podcast right now, we talked about off the top, like we've hung out with you Jenny.
So it definitely makes it a lot more comfortable when you have that real life familiarity.
It's not always possible in this world we live in, but what a great idea.
And I think that's a really good insight for us in the higher ed space where typically it is a campus and you are gathering in the same place.
So there is more opportunity to have that in real life for sure.
Jennifer-Lee: I'd rather be having coffee with Jenny right now in person.
Neil McPhedran: Yes, yes, yes, for sure.
Jenny Luna: That would be nice.
One other thing that we learned, and I wouldn't say it's because we didn't do it right the first time, but something we did, and I'm so glad that we did, was right at the beginning of the brainstorming, we came up with a persona who was our listener.
So we did an exercise where we all sort of weighed in on, literally down to what this person likes to do for fun, what their name is, what they do for work, what sorts of things they're thinking about, what they grapple with, what other podcasts they listen to.
And so throughout season one, when we were making things, we were always asking back toward our persona.
What is the person going to take away from it?
What are they learning from it?
And when we did all of our brainstorming for season two, we looked at back, you know, are we reaching this persona that we created?
And if not, do we want to reach a new persona or do we need to change the show in some way to make sure that we are reaching this persona that we want to reach?
So again, that was something that podcast agency we work with recommended we do right out the gate and it's seriously been like such a guiding force through the production of If/Then.
Neil McPhedran: That's funny.
I want to jump back to the launch.
So when you did actually launch, uh, did you have a teaser or a trailer?
Um, did you put the teaser trailer out there and then a week later, two weeks later, drop your first episode or what was that actual launch to the audience?
Jenny Luna: Pretty much what you had said, Neil, we did.
We launched a trailer a week before, which again, when I talked about how production got really busy, we didn't make time for that.
So that would have been something I learned I would have done sooner in the process of production is making that trailer kind of as you were making those early episodes.
Versus, oh shoot, we've got to put a trailer out.
It did feel a little last minute.
Neil McPhedran: And then you mean, have the trailer live for longer than your official launch is what you're saying, potentially.
Jenny Luna: Or maybe just start working on it sooner.
I, but we did have it ready for a week before, and then we launched with two episodes, which I, again, had never done before.
And that was the recommendation of the podcast agency that we worked with.
Because people can come and they can choose right away.
I really like to think of podcast episodes like a menu.
People want to come and order what looks the most delicious to their ears, let's say.
So we launched with our two strongest right out of the gate so that people could come to the show and then pick which one.
Hopefully like it enough that they then listen to the second one.
By the time that has happened, the third one is coming out.
Jennifer-Lee: Something else that I noticed you guys do really well too is your YouTube channel.
Um, because I've looked at lots of other podcasts that have similar followings to you or notoriety and they can get quite a bit of views, but their engagement in their comment section is not as hot as yours.
I noticed that in some of the episodes you guys have a ton of comments.
What do you think is so engaging about If/Then on a YouTube channel?
Jenny Luna: Yes, YouTube is a equally important part of our strategy for podcasting.
And we've had a lot of success there, honestly, because the, the channel itself was already so healthy and robust.
People were coming to us for content.
So adding the podcast there.
And we used to not show comments, but we decided to allow comments.
And that's really upped the engagement to podcasting as well.
We weren't ready to do video, and so they are up there without any video, and being a podcaster and an audio person, I think that's okay.
I think it works well with the really nice logo, not needing it to actually be the video interaction between the host and the guest.
And we share out the YouTube link in the same way we share out Spotify.
We usually do Spotify, Apple, YouTube, and then let the user pick.
If they listen on a different app, they can do that on their phone too.
Jennifer-Lee: You guys are doing it totally proper.
We had somebody last year that was big into YouTube that teaches at NYU and he said, doesn't matter if you have video, you just have to be on YouTube.
And you can have a placard with a moving bar, he said, just be on YouTube.
Jenny Luna: Yeah.
I, again, like I'm at old school, always want to just be in the podcast world, but that's where, where people are listening and that's how they're finding us.
The searchability is so much better on YouTube too.
I'm sure if you just type in YouTube Stanford GSB podcast, it will come up.
I don't think that's the same, you know, in Google, you might have to sift through a few more things.
So the searchability on YouTube just makes it really easy.
Jennifer-Lee: Actually, when I googled your podcast to listen to today and I put, If/Then, the YouTube came up first before Spotify or anything like that.
YouTube is important, and I'm not going to get into this like tangent, but YouTube is important.
But there's still no correlation yet if we're actually watching the person at the microphone versus if we're just listening to podcasts with the moving bar.
You just have to be there for searching and be able to listen to it somehow.
But anyways, that's another discussion for another day.
Neil McPhedran: I know there was a number of launch slash growth tactics that you and your team executed again with help from an agency.
I believe when you told me before you did some podcast swaps with other shows.
There was some paid budget that went behind things and organic tactics and PR.
There was a lot of things that your team did.
So maybe without going too, too deep into each one of those, but just curious, which were some of those growth tactics, strategies that you felt worked that you're going to be leaning into in season two again?
Jenny Luna: We had underestimated the power of our internal comms and sort of our internal audiences.
And when I say internally, I mean sort of things that Stanford does.
So yes, we did cross promos and yes, we did paid budget and we saw uptick listeners for that.
But again, we underestimated how well getting shared in Stanford's main alumni newsletter would do and Stanford's main social media channel.
So we had really built out a communications plan to go all across Stanford in hopes that they would share that we had launched a new podcast.
They did, and we saw really good results from that.
Neil McPhedran: That's great.
So you'll be leaning into that for launching season two and then obviously working off of the base of followers that you've created for season one as well.
Jenny Luna: Yeah, definitely.
Neil McPhedran: That's great.
That's a really great insight for you to share with us.
Thank you.
Jenny, it's been wonderful having you on the show again, and thank you for all of your insights.
There's some really good nuggets there, I think, for all of us.
Jen, we need to find our own persona.
I think that was a really good insight.
We have not thought about that, and we need to come up with a name for the Continuing Studies persona.
Any thoughts?
Jennifer-Lee: I'm excited.
I'm already thinking about this, Neil.
Her name is Janine.
She likes Starbucks and she walks her dog on the seawall while listening to our podcast.
Neil McPhedran: Okay, I think we might need to dig a little bit deeper, but I like the start of that.
That's a good start.
I'm down with the name too, you know, I feel like it's got a little bit of you and a little bit of me in the name.
So, okay.
We'll start there.
Jenny Luna: Can I add something?
Can I add something about Janine?
Neil McPhedran: Please.
Jenny Luna: Janine has a communications background and works in higher ed, and she's had not only her boss, but multiple stakeholders at her organization approach her and say, I'm seeing a lot of our competitors have podcasts.
I need you to make a podcast, please.
And she doesn't have experience in audio or podcasting, so she's gotta go figure out.
A, how do I make a podcast?
B, how do I make it good?
And where do I start?
Neil McPhedran: That's brilliant.
Jennifer-Lee: And that's why she comes to Neil and I.
I love it.
Neil McPhedran: I think we need Jenny on our Continuing Studies podcast more and giving us these great ideas.
Jennifer-Lee: I know.
Neil McPhedran: Yeah.
Well, thanks so much for joining us today.
It's been wonderful.
Some really good insights for the audience.
Thank you so much.
Jennifer-Lee: Thank you so much, Jenny, for coming back on.
Hope to have you back again.
Jenny Luna: Thank you so much.
Talk to you both soon.
Neil McPhedran: Great.
Thanks, Jenny.
Jennifer-Lee: Thanks.
Bye.
Neil McPhedran: Okay, Jen.
That was great.
I don't know about you, but as usual, got some wonderful insights in this episode.
I really liked the persona and I think Jenny's right that that is such a great way to think about your audience.
But also, it's a good way to really rally around the entire team.
It's a great way for the entire team to rally around who that audience is and to define them.
And then coming up with a name for that audience member and that persona, where you can refer to that person in such a familiar way.
I think is super helpful, but just even just defining what that, who that person is, I think is super helpful for us all to think about.
And as we talked about in the episode, when we were chatting with Jenny is, we definitely need to figure this out for our own podcast.
Jennifer-Lee: Well, she already created this one, Janine, she already went deep into it.
I feel like that is our listener.
Jenny is on the ball.
They're on point.
Something else that they did, I tell people this all the time.
They don't take enough time to do it is always figure out your concept.
Like really dig deep.
Brainstorm.
That's what I've done with many of the clients I've worked with.
Same thing for you.
And it's like, a lot of times people just want to get to the microphone, but there's so much work before you get to the microphone and hit record.
And that's why their podcasts are successful.
So until next time, I'm excited to find out more about the wonderful people making Continuing Studies podcasts.
Neil McPhedran: Totally agree, Jen.
Okay, so why don't you read us out?
Jennifer-Lee: So thank you for tuning in to the Continuing Studies podcast, a podcast for higher education podcasters.
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