WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:11.906 --> 00:00:17.966 jethro_2_04-23-2025_143737: Welcome to Transformative Principle, where I help you stop putting out fires and start leading. 00:00:18.476 --> 00:00:19.976 I'm your host, Jethro Jones. 00:00:19.976 --> 00:00:22.676 You can follow me on Twitter at Jethro Jones. 00:00:35.021 --> 00:00:37.151 Jethro D. Jones: Welcome to Transformative Principle. 00:00:37.151 --> 00:00:38.621 I am your host, Jethro Jones. 00:00:38.621 --> 00:00:42.341 You can find me on all the social networks at Jethro Jones. 00:00:42.716 --> 00:00:47.186 The Transformative Principle Podcast is a proud member of the BE Podcast Network. 00:00:47.396 --> 00:00:58.526 We've got so many great shows and we just got a brand new show called Improving Education Today, the Deep Dive, which is a new experimental podcast that you might be interested in. 00:00:58.866 --> 00:01:02.016 This one is created from the writings of Dr. Howie Kn. 00:01:03.111 --> 00:01:06.111 Ai, using Notebook lm, which some people may know about. 00:01:06.216 --> 00:01:15.936 And instead of just throwing a bunch of junk in there, he has well-researched, well-written documents, that he then puts into there and it makes a podcast out of it. 00:01:15.936 --> 00:01:18.096 So if that sounds intriguing. 00:01:18.136 --> 00:01:19.426 Go check it out. 00:01:19.486 --> 00:01:23.746 And if you're not using notebook, lm, my friend Aaron says that it is amazing. 00:01:24.016 --> 00:01:25.036 I've played with it. 00:01:25.036 --> 00:01:25.576 I enjoy it. 00:01:25.576 --> 00:01:26.536 I think that it's cool. 00:01:26.726 --> 00:01:28.676 And definitely worth checking out. 00:01:28.946 --> 00:01:37.781 I'm in the middle of writing my dissertation, so I'm putting my documents in there and I'm gonna see what happens when I. Do my literature review and just take all that stuff and see what it says. 00:01:37.811 --> 00:01:39.341 It'll be interesting to see what happens. 00:01:39.671 --> 00:01:43.451 But today on the show we have Bobby Kenosha Carr. 00:01:43.541 --> 00:01:50.771 He's a leadership coach, author, mindfulness teacher, and a former teacher and principal, and a senior public education executive. 00:01:51.041 --> 00:01:56.711 He's the founder and CEO of Enlightened Leadership Coaching, and the senior managing director of schools at equitus. 00:01:56.881 --> 00:02:07.561 Academy Charter Schools as a school principal, Bobby led the turnaround of a large public high school in Los Angeles and subsequently founded a charter school in his hometown of San Pedro, California. 00:02:08.011 --> 00:02:12.511 He's a pioneer in personalized and project-based learning, restorative practices and mentoring in schools. 00:02:12.871 --> 00:02:15.841 Bobby recently published his first book, can I Go To the Bathroom? 00:02:15.841 --> 00:02:23.191 In Other Asinine Questions We Ask in School, it's an exploration of the dysfunctional power dynamics that leave almost everyone feeling disempowered. 00:02:23.581 --> 00:02:24.871 In American schools. 00:02:25.231 --> 00:02:31.141 And let me be honest, the reason I said yes to this podcast was because of the title of his book. 00:02:31.531 --> 00:02:32.851 Can I go to the bathroom? 00:02:33.001 --> 00:02:35.581 So Bobby, welcome to Transformative Principle. 00:02:35.581 --> 00:02:36.481 Great to have you here. 00:02:36.481 --> 00:02:36.531 I. 00:02:36.831 --> 00:02:37.701 Bobby Canosa-Carr: Yeah, thanks Jetro. 00:02:37.701 --> 00:02:38.451 I'm happy to be here. 00:02:39.151 --> 00:02:57.241 Mm-hmm. 00:02:57.541 --> 00:03:02.206 Jethro D. Jones: when I was a principal, if I was teaching a class or leading a class, which I did on a regular basis. 00:03:02.866 --> 00:03:16.046 I said, if you ever ask me to go to the bathroom, then that is the only thing you can really get in trouble for because if you have to ask me to go to the bathroom, we have much bigger problems and I don't want to hear that question ever. 00:03:16.346 --> 00:03:18.536 If you need to go to the bathroom, just go to the bathroom. 00:03:19.166 --> 00:03:20.966 Why do we ask this question in school? 00:03:22.301 --> 00:03:24.311 Bobby Canosa-Carr: Yeah, I, exactly. 00:03:24.401 --> 00:03:37.121 Everything you just said and some more, to me, that question speaks to so much more than just that experience of students feeling like their basic bodily functions are being monitored by other people. 00:03:37.601 --> 00:03:47.201 To me, it speaks to the broader issue of power dynamics in American schools, and that's really what the book is about, is how. 00:03:47.981 --> 00:03:59.711 The American school system has built this culture of permission seeking, where every single person, it's not just the kids, it's the teachers, it's the administrators as well. 00:03:59.831 --> 00:04:11.921 Every single person, as soon as they arrive on a school campus, is put into a position in a power dynamic where they're constantly seeking permission to make even the most basic decisions. 00:04:12.706 --> 00:04:18.916 I deeply believe that that is at the heart of what we need to address if we're really gonna have great schools in this country. 00:04:19.676 --> 00:04:20.156 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah. 00:04:20.186 --> 00:04:29.746 So, I think we can just, we can assume that people understand what you mean when you say that, and we're just gonna move forward because I don't wanna spend a lot of time dissecting that. 00:04:29.746 --> 00:04:37.336 Let's just talk about this permission seeking issue, what happens when you're in this permission seeking issue? 00:04:37.806 --> 00:04:59.806 Is that you believe that you can't make decisions and that your only choice is to either be subversive, or feel subversive or to, to do something else radical or, or something to, to be able to do what you feel like you need to do as a person in any position in a school. 00:04:59.806 --> 00:05:00.826 What's your take on that? 00:05:01.391 --> 00:05:05.471 Bobby Canosa-Carr: That is absolutely right and very much aligned with my lived experience. 00:05:05.471 --> 00:05:23.991 I was always that subversive person and continue to be that, as a high school student, I, I. Was leading protests in my own high school, organizing sit-ins in the principal's office because I didn't have channels to really advocate for meaningful change. 00:05:24.041 --> 00:05:35.111 From my perspective as a student, as a teacher, I was the one that was always pushing the boundaries and bringing in texts that weren't on the reading list and facilitating discussions that. 00:05:35.821 --> 00:05:45.151 Didn't always sit well with my administrators because they didn't see the clear alignment to mastery as measured by standardized assessments. 00:05:45.251 --> 00:05:52.241 And then as a principal, this is how I actually moved over from a traditional school system to the charter side. 00:05:52.291 --> 00:05:57.761 I came up with an LA unified school district, all the way from teacher to high school, principal. 00:05:58.421 --> 00:06:24.281 But eventually was positioned so frequently to be that subversive voice that even when I was just trying to do the things that my teachers needed, my students needed, my families needed, my community needed, I was constantly put into a position where I felt like I had to fight to just be able to do what seemed like the obvious right? 00:06:24.281 --> 00:06:25.841 Move in service to other people. 00:06:26.336 --> 00:06:33.606 And that's when I moved over to the charter world, where things are different but not, not altogether better. 00:06:33.756 --> 00:06:34.716 Right there, there are. 00:06:34.771 --> 00:06:35.971 Jethro D. Jones: that all went away, right? 00:06:36.331 --> 00:06:39.241 You could, you can do whatever you want in a charter school, right, Bobby? 00:06:39.891 --> 00:06:40.881 Bobby Canosa-Carr: Not how it works. 00:06:40.911 --> 00:06:41.931 Not how it works. 00:06:41.931 --> 00:06:44.151 We, we, we, we still have oversight. 00:06:44.151 --> 00:06:56.331 We still have have outdated laws and policies and regulations, and we still have leadership that runs the gamut from highly effective to highly ineffective, just like any other school system. 00:06:56.391 --> 00:07:03.921 And so I think I have found myself chasing opportunities to, I. 00:07:04.761 --> 00:07:17.081 Be able to collaborate with people at schools to make schools better places for everyone, and found myself running up against barriers, in most of the places where I found myself across my life. 00:07:17.831 --> 00:07:23.491 And, that was really what inspired this book was, was my wanting to initially just. 00:07:23.971 --> 00:07:25.591 Explore the ideas. 00:07:25.651 --> 00:07:35.851 And then as I started having conversations with other educators, I realized my experience was, was shared by a lot of folks in the field, and people wanted an opportunity to think about it for themselves. 00:07:37.261 --> 00:07:49.856 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah, and, and really what the way that I dealt with this is I would just do the thing that I needed or wanted to do and, I have a. A strong moral compass. 00:07:49.976 --> 00:07:52.406 And so I felt comfortable doing that. 00:07:52.406 --> 00:07:55.706 But like you said, I always felt like I had to fight for it. 00:07:55.796 --> 00:08:08.801 And I was always prepared for the, the superintendent or the principal or the director or whoever to come down and say, you can't do X, Y, or Z anymore because not allowed. 00:08:08.821 --> 00:08:09.201 And even. 00:08:10.276 --> 00:08:24.346 my specialty was finding ways to make it allowed by, by doing things that were, permitted but not, not exactly condoned and, but that were well within the, the rules and regulations that we had set up. 00:08:24.406 --> 00:08:26.896 You know, some people might fall kind, fuck, might. 00:08:27.216 --> 00:08:28.716 Call that finding loopholes. 00:08:29.016 --> 00:08:30.426 And, and that's what I would do. 00:08:30.426 --> 00:08:34.866 I was, I would find loopholes where we could get away with doing the things we wanted to. 00:08:35.166 --> 00:08:41.356 So, for example, in one district, we were required, teachers were required to submit lesson plans. 00:08:41.536 --> 00:08:46.216 And I was the principal and I asked around, I said, who's checking up on me collecting the lesson plans? 00:08:46.576 --> 00:08:48.136 And nobody was. 00:08:48.136 --> 00:08:49.246 And so I said, well. 00:08:50.431 --> 00:08:51.601 We're not gonna do this anymore. 00:08:51.601 --> 00:08:56.761 We're not gonna collect lesson plans from everybody because one, I'm not going to review them all. 00:08:56.811 --> 00:08:57.231 Bobby Canosa-Carr: Mm-hmm. 00:08:57.241 --> 00:09:01.081 Jethro D. Jones: so if you're turning them in so that I can review them, that's not gonna happen. 00:09:01.411 --> 00:09:08.161 If you're turning them in so that you have some accountability, then sure, go ahead and still do that, but I'm just gonna file it away in the trash. 00:09:08.161 --> 00:09:08.821 I'm not gonna. 00:09:09.136 --> 00:09:12.046 I'm not gonna look at it 'cause I'm gonna be in your classroom seeing what's going on. 00:09:12.106 --> 00:09:12.456 Bobby Canosa-Carr: Right. 00:09:13.156 --> 00:09:21.586 Jethro D. Jones: and, and if there's any other reason I can't figure it out, why that would be beneficial as a school-wide, district-wide policy that you turn it in. 00:09:21.886 --> 00:09:26.626 So we just stopped and and my teachers were like, well, you can't just stop doing this. 00:09:26.626 --> 00:09:27.406 It's required. 00:09:27.736 --> 00:09:28.846 And I was like, says who? 00:09:28.876 --> 00:09:31.336 Like, where's, where's the thing? 00:09:31.336 --> 00:09:34.306 And I didn't ask if I could stop collecting them. 00:09:34.306 --> 00:09:34.996 I just did. 00:09:35.236 --> 00:09:36.406 And guess what, Bobby? 00:09:36.766 --> 00:09:37.576 Nobody. 00:09:38.476 --> 00:09:40.221 and said, you need to start doing this again. 00:09:40.521 --> 00:09:40.741 Bobby Canosa-Carr: Yep. 00:09:40.816 --> 00:09:45.916 Jethro D. Jones: the superintendent, not the curriculum director, not anybody, because nobody was paying attention. 00:09:45.916 --> 00:09:50.086 Nobody cared, and it was a stupid rule that didn't make any sense at all. 00:09:50.086 --> 00:09:53.446 And so I just found a loophole and we stopped doing it and. 00:09:54.616 --> 00:10:03.736 It turns out it didn't matter one tiny bit and there are about a million other things in education that are like that where they don't matter if, if I may share one more story 00:10:04.036 --> 00:10:04.576 Bobby Canosa-Carr: please. 00:10:04.876 --> 00:10:07.216 Jethro D. Jones: I actually looked like a genius, even though I wasn't. 00:10:07.486 --> 00:10:08.866 I was just being obstinate. 00:10:09.196 --> 00:10:26.746 We had our first year of digital state testing in Alaska and there was all this pressure and tension around making sure the computers could do the digital state testing, and I said, I'm not going to spend multiple days practicing to make sure that this stuff works. 00:10:26.746 --> 00:10:30.121 If it's not ready for prime time, then we're not. 00:10:30.841 --> 00:10:31.861 We shouldn't be doing it. 00:10:32.221 --> 00:10:34.526 And again, I didn't ask permission. 00:10:35.041 --> 00:10:37.381 The superintendent said this, these are the practice days. 00:10:37.411 --> 00:10:38.611 I said, we're not doing that. 00:10:39.031 --> 00:10:41.161 And I just ignored it basically. 00:10:41.281 --> 00:10:43.021 And I didn't like make a big deal about it. 00:10:43.021 --> 00:10:44.491 I just ignored it. 00:10:44.491 --> 00:10:47.791 And when the IT director said, Hey, we need to set these things up. 00:10:47.791 --> 00:10:51.271 I said, you know, you can go ahead and test 'em, but I'm not devoting time. 00:10:51.541 --> 00:10:52.681 Class time to doing it. 00:10:52.681 --> 00:11:01.141 So you can come down here, bring your IT folks down, and you guys can do whatever you need to, but we're not, we're not testing because we're not testing the test because that's not what we're here for. 00:11:01.141 --> 00:11:02.071 We're here to learn. 00:11:02.071 --> 00:11:03.661 And, and kids are actually learning. 00:11:03.961 --> 00:11:05.311 This is not going to help them learn. 00:11:05.731 --> 00:11:11.301 And so then the test came and we have a window, and I said, we're gonna do the very last week. 00:11:11.391 --> 00:11:15.051 And they're like, no, you can't do that because it's new and there might be issues. 00:11:16.011 --> 00:11:17.991 And I said, let everybody else figure out the issues. 00:11:18.261 --> 00:11:21.051 We're gonna have our testing window be the very last week. 00:11:21.321 --> 00:11:23.301 We're not gonna start until the very last Monday. 00:11:23.541 --> 00:11:27.231 We're gonna do three days and then we'll have, Thursday and Friday for makeups. 00:11:27.231 --> 00:11:29.481 And they're like, you might run out of people. 00:11:29.481 --> 00:11:32.951 There might not be enough time to get all the makeups and then we won't get our 95%. 00:11:33.431 --> 00:11:34.721 And I was like, doesn't matter. 00:11:34.721 --> 00:11:35.861 This is when we're doing it. 00:11:35.861 --> 00:11:36.221 And. 00:11:36.971 --> 00:11:42.581 And I, I got a little bit of pushback, but I was, but they didn't have a good reason to say, no, you need to do it earlier. 00:11:42.881 --> 00:11:45.551 So then the test starts, it's open for a month. 00:11:45.851 --> 00:11:56.561 Second week in, at the University of Kansas, somebody cuts a cable and a fire optic cable, and the test can't be accessed anymore because it was going to the servers there. 00:11:56.981 --> 00:12:01.751 And now I look like a genius because our whole school got out doing the test that year. 00:12:02.126 --> 00:12:08.306 Because I wasn't willing to go along with this stupid plan to be panicky about that. 00:12:08.996 --> 00:12:12.416 a lot of principals and teachers don't feel like they can do that. 00:12:12.776 --> 00:12:13.046 Bobby Canosa-Carr: Yeah. 00:12:13.346 --> 00:12:16.316 Jethro D. Jones: frankly was so sure of what the right thing to do was that. 00:12:16.316 --> 00:12:25.946 It wasn't hard for me, but it was very stressful for my assistant principal, for the counselor, for other teachers in the building, but it wasn't for me because I was sure what we were doing was the right thing. 00:12:26.336 --> 00:12:26.636 How? 00:12:26.636 --> 00:12:30.266 How would you give someone courage to say, this is the right thing and we're gonna do it anyway? 00:12:30.686 --> 00:12:35.576 Bobby Canosa-Carr: Yeah, I mean I love that you said we're not gonna do it 'cause that's not what we're here for. 00:12:36.071 --> 00:12:36.551 Jethro D. Jones: Mm-hmm. 00:12:38.216 --> 00:12:41.336 Bobby Canosa-Carr: I actually explore that idea a little bit in the book of. 00:12:42.176 --> 00:12:43.826 Is that actually what we're here for? 00:12:44.096 --> 00:12:52.736 Because to some extent we've gotta acknowledge that we're lying to ourselves if we say we are here entirely to educate kids. 00:12:52.736 --> 00:13:01.886 Because there are so many things, like the examples you're giving that that give evidence to the contrary that say, we are actually here to service the system rather than service the kids. 00:13:02.411 --> 00:13:08.351 We are actually here to funnel public funds to these major international textbook companies and consultants. 00:13:08.681 --> 00:13:17.051 We are actually here to make sure that the lobbyists who get paid by those textbook companies are able to, to do what they do. 00:13:17.531 --> 00:13:25.661 There is a whole system there and it operates below the surface, but I think. 00:13:26.681 --> 00:13:35.381 Some educators get to a point in their careers where they're able to kind of see through the matrix and they're able to see what's really going on. 00:13:35.381 --> 00:13:41.351 It sounds like that's what you're talking about is getting to that point where it doesn't even take courage at some point. 00:13:41.381 --> 00:13:49.751 It just takes seeing the system for what it is and seeing that what I'm being asked to do in this case is not in service to kids. 00:13:49.781 --> 00:13:54.191 It's not actually aligned with our stated mission, vision values. 00:13:54.761 --> 00:14:00.611 You know, every school system has something posted on their website about what they're there to do. 00:14:01.871 --> 00:14:11.586 But if you really audit the practices of any school, you'll find it's a fairly small percentage of their practices that are aligned with what they say their stated purpose is. 00:14:14.451 --> 00:14:17.211 Jethro D. Jones: So, so what's, so what do we do about that? 00:14:17.271 --> 00:14:23.121 How do you, how do you help people get out of that and actually do what we're there to do? 00:14:23.181 --> 00:14:28.431 And I, I mean the, this is actually a deeper question because not everybody believes. 00:14:29.366 --> 00:14:30.686 In what we're there to do. 00:14:30.686 --> 00:14:40.326 In fact, I was at my daughter's transition program, which is for kids with special needs going in grad, leaving high school, and transitioning into, life after high school. 00:14:40.716 --> 00:14:47.526 And the stated goal of this program is to get our kids to be tax paying citizens. 00:14:47.866 --> 00:14:49.846 And like, that's not my goal. 00:14:49.886 --> 00:14:50.306 Bobby Canosa-Carr: Mm-hmm. 00:14:50.446 --> 00:14:50.806 Jethro D. Jones: That's not 00:14:50.911 --> 00:14:51.271 Bobby Canosa-Carr: Yep. 00:14:51.346 --> 00:14:52.336 Jethro D. Jones: for my child, is 00:14:52.351 --> 00:14:52.651 Bobby Canosa-Carr: Yep. 00:14:52.786 --> 00:14:56.996 Jethro D. Jones: their whole purpose to feed into this, giant government system. 00:14:57.026 --> 00:15:05.126 That's, that's not really what I am, what I want her to grow up to have her life's purpose as, but that's how they pitched it in this, in this meeting. 00:15:05.486 --> 00:15:07.046 How do you, how do you combat that? 00:15:08.161 --> 00:15:08.431 Bobby Canosa-Carr: Yeah. 00:15:08.431 --> 00:15:15.871 I mean it's, it's so pervasive that reminds me of, of the statement that RFK Jr recently made about autism and his drive to. 00:15:16.301 --> 00:15:26.021 Find a so-called cure for autism, and the first reason he gave for wanting to do that is because autistic people in his mind will never be taxpayers. 00:15:26.471 --> 00:15:37.001 So again, it's just an example of the system is set up to achieve certain things like collecting taxes from us that are not aligned with what most educators get into the system for. 00:15:37.931 --> 00:15:42.671 To me, the way we combat that. 00:15:43.846 --> 00:15:45.916 We've gotta start engaging in more dialogue. 00:15:46.256 --> 00:15:54.686 I think the way that the system obscures what's really going on, keeps people confused and keeps people seeking permission is by turning us against one another. 00:15:55.886 --> 00:15:59.066 And so in the book, can I go to the bathroom? 00:15:59.066 --> 00:16:09.266 Isn't the only question we look at every, every chapter is actually named after a question that gets asked in schools all the time, and one of the chapters is called Why is It Always My Fault? 00:16:09.971 --> 00:16:12.761 Which any teacher or administrator hears that question all the time. 00:16:12.761 --> 00:16:13.811 Why is it always my fault? 00:16:14.801 --> 00:16:20.501 And I've really explored the idea that the system trains us to point fingers at one another. 00:16:21.581 --> 00:16:31.996 It trains students to look at their teachers as the source of power and see their teachers often as the oppressors and the people who are keeping them from being able to live fulfilled lives while they're at school. 00:16:33.176 --> 00:16:38.981 We all know many, many teachers see their administrators in that same light. 00:16:39.701 --> 00:16:52.441 And most administrators are looking at their superintendent, their district office folks, their state education agency, whatever it is, as the source of the problem. 00:16:52.501 --> 00:17:02.551 And I think as long as we're pointing fingers at one another, especially those of us who go to school campuses every day, it's like a game of divide and conquer. 00:17:03.256 --> 00:17:10.336 And they turn the people who spend their time at schools against one another in order to obscure some of these deeper issues. 00:17:10.396 --> 00:17:30.136 And so my big push and what I think is actually the first step in in addressing some of this is creating more opportunities for dialogue, actually helping students and teachers and administrators to sit down together and talk about what's working for them at their schools and what's not working for them at their schools. 00:17:30.736 --> 00:17:32.656 Start being vulnerable with one another. 00:17:32.756 --> 00:17:39.326 It drives me crazy how we have all these constructs that keep us from connecting with people at different levels. 00:17:40.130 --> 00:17:47.096 The fact that in a lot of schools, teachers and administrators don't even want kids to know what their first name is. 00:17:47.276 --> 00:17:50.626 It's not even about I want you to respect me by calling me Mr. 00:17:50.626 --> 00:17:52.636 Or Miss, Mrs. Doctor, whatever it is. 00:17:53.656 --> 00:17:55.006 I have no problem with that, but. 00:17:55.696 --> 00:18:01.366 Where it's like, I don't even want you to know what my first name is because I have to maintain emotional distance from you. 00:18:03.136 --> 00:18:11.866 That type of dynamic that's just become commonly accepted in schools, it keeps us separate and it signals to us we can't be vulnerable with one another. 00:18:11.866 --> 00:18:13.276 We can't be human with one another. 00:18:13.276 --> 00:18:17.506 We can't acknowledge our suffering in relation to one another. 00:18:18.196 --> 00:18:20.896 And I didn't really figure that out until after. 00:18:21.256 --> 00:18:25.066 I was done being a principal, and I was a principal for seven years in two different schools. 00:18:26.056 --> 00:18:30.316 It wasn't until after that that I realized I was suffering deeply. 00:18:31.726 --> 00:18:33.856 It wasn't that I wasn't good at my job, I was effective. 00:18:33.856 --> 00:18:37.606 I got results, but I was suffering deeply. 00:18:37.606 --> 00:18:43.876 I was really not fulfilled as a human being, as a professional, but nobody knew. 00:18:44.731 --> 00:18:48.511 Because they couldn't, because I had to maintain that professional distance. 00:18:48.511 --> 00:18:55.351 I had to maintain what I thought of as respect and authority and and maintain that power dynamic. 00:18:55.771 --> 00:18:57.511 And that's the way administrators are to teachers. 00:18:57.511 --> 00:18:59.101 That's the way teachers are to students. 00:18:59.371 --> 00:19:01.741 And as long as we're doing that, we're not talking to one another. 00:19:01.801 --> 00:19:06.961 And if we're not talking to one another, we're not seeing that this problem isn't a me problem. 00:19:07.291 --> 00:19:08.491 This is a systemic problem. 00:19:08.791 --> 00:19:09.991 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah, absolutely. 00:19:09.991 --> 00:19:30.706 So the mastermind group coaching that I do with principals really powerful in that sense, in that it gives you a place to be able to be vulnerable and share what's really going on, and that is the feedback that I get the most often from it is I. I feel like this is the only place I can really tell what people, what's going on. 00:19:31.066 --> 00:19:32.446 I can't say this in my district. 00:19:32.446 --> 00:19:37.426 I can't say this in my school because if people knew this was going on, they would think that I was a terrible principal. 00:19:37.846 --> 00:19:38.776 And it's like, no. 00:19:39.556 --> 00:19:44.086 Like we all, we all deal with that and we all get frustrated and like we're all human. 00:19:44.086 --> 00:19:47.326 It's not as big a deal as we make it seem. 00:19:47.326 --> 00:19:48.616 And it doesn't have to be either. 00:19:50.477 --> 00:19:50.597 Bobby Canosa-Carr: I, 00:19:50.602 --> 00:20:08.192 I remember when I first launched my coaching business and I was reaching out to folks that I know in senior leadership positions in school districts, and I was talking to a superintendent, and I just asked the question because the push was, well, it sounds like your coaching is a lot of, a lot of fluffy stuff. 00:20:08.192 --> 00:20:11.642 It sounds like it's, it's not as results oriented as we needed. 00:20:11.642 --> 00:20:14.462 Like, can you prove that it's gonna improve standardized test scores? 00:20:15.332 --> 00:20:17.017 And I just said you were a principal. 00:20:19.112 --> 00:20:21.092 How often did you cry on your commute 00:20:23.372 --> 00:20:27.422 and it threw that superintendent for a loop? 00:20:27.482 --> 00:20:41.042 Just being asked that question, because we all know for anyone who is in that role and is really emotionally invested in the work, there's a very good chance that there's a lot of crying happening on that commute. 00:20:41.692 --> 00:20:42.062 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah. 00:20:42.962 --> 00:20:45.632 Bobby Canosa-Carr: because it, the role of principal is. 00:20:46.532 --> 00:20:47.942 Such an enormous burden. 00:20:48.062 --> 00:20:55.682 And it is such a lonely, lonely burden to carry because we are told nobody on your campus is on your level. 00:20:55.682 --> 00:21:00.502 Nobody on your campus can know the things that, you know, you are completely on your own. 00:21:01.042 --> 00:21:07.042 And then principals are also positioned to compete against one another rather than collaborate with one another. 00:21:07.662 --> 00:21:13.692 Especially in, I can speak to, to where I am in California with declining enrollment, we have just. 00:21:14.502 --> 00:21:17.892 Dramatically dropping numbers of school age kids. 00:21:17.982 --> 00:21:24.722 And so each principal is communicating with the principal at the next school over, for that enrollment. 00:21:24.962 --> 00:21:31.502 And so even with your peers, you're just positioned to never be vulnerable, never be yourself, never be fully human. 00:21:31.507 --> 00:21:38.672 And that's just such a disservice to the people in the role, and it prevents them from doing the work to the best of their ability. 00:21:39.537 --> 00:21:42.457 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah, it, it's interesting the, the topic of my. 00:21:42.642 --> 00:21:44.952 Rotation is what? 00:21:45.402 --> 00:21:52.722 How improving your organic skills, which is what I'm calling soft skills, basically like trust, empowerment, things like that. 00:21:53.112 --> 00:21:58.842 How improving those actually increases your effectiveness as a principle, 00:21:59.142 --> 00:22:00.312 Bobby Canosa-Carr: Mm-hmm. 00:22:00.612 --> 00:22:11.812 Jethro D. Jones: to get to the effectiveness as it relates to, standardized test scores, but I just read a different dissertation by someone else who talked about how trust. 00:22:12.232 --> 00:22:27.442 When a, when a principal has a learning centered focus and they have trust with their staff, that it greatly increases the likelihood of their students performing well on state assessments and Right. 00:22:27.442 --> 00:22:28.312 It's all fluffy. 00:22:28.312 --> 00:22:33.202 Like, oh, this feel good, like let's build trust, kumbaya type stuff. 00:22:33.292 --> 00:22:34.402 Yeah, but you know what? 00:22:34.492 --> 00:22:36.502 That actually makes it so that you can. 00:22:36.862 --> 00:22:42.052 Take risks so that you can feel safe, so that you can do the things that you need to do to actually learn. 00:22:42.442 --> 00:22:44.542 Because learning doesn't happen in a vacuum either. 00:22:44.932 --> 00:23:01.832 And so those, those things have to happen and it has to be there because if it's not, then you're not gonna get the results either, you know, so we have to stop poo-pooing these organic skills and start seeing them for what they really are, which is the actual skills that matter. 00:23:02.942 --> 00:23:07.472 Much more than the academic skills because if you have these skills, you can learn anything. 00:23:07.832 --> 00:23:12.332 But if you don't have them, then it's gonna be even more difficult to learn things. 00:23:12.887 --> 00:23:14.807 Bobby Canosa-Carr: Yeah, that's exactly right. 00:23:14.807 --> 00:23:20.237 You know, because you're writing your dissertation, there is so much research around this. 00:23:20.237 --> 00:23:38.137 It's no longer just, some, some guys like us think that it's important to be sensitive, like there is solid science behind those, those organic skills being absolutely crucial levers in moving the needle on our productivity and effectiveness. 00:23:39.277 --> 00:23:40.267 Jethro D. Jones: They absolutely are. 00:23:40.267 --> 00:23:45.017 So, again, the book is called Can I Go To the Bathroom and Other Ask Nine Questions We Ask In School. 00:23:45.297 --> 00:23:48.237 Bobby, my last question is how do people, how can. 00:23:49.212 --> 00:23:53.562 What's one thing that a principal can do this week to be a transformative leader like you? 00:23:55.332 --> 00:23:59.832 Bobby Canosa-Carr: Start a conversation with the person you think is most at odds with you. 00:24:01.347 --> 00:24:26.337 Whoever that person is, whether that is that teacher that you perceive to be the troublemaker, whether that is the student that is the bane of your existence, whether that is the parent that's going to show up at the board meeting and speak out against you in public comment, whoever that person is that is driving you the most crazy. 00:24:28.182 --> 00:24:42.907 Initiate a conversation with them for no reason other than to try to better understand their lived experience and how their lived experience at your school is contributing to the behaviors that you think are problematic. 00:24:45.692 --> 00:24:46.712 Jethro D. Jones: That's great advice. 00:24:46.772 --> 00:24:52.672 And, I've done that and it's scary, but man, it's so worth it when you, when you actually do it. 00:24:52.672 --> 00:25:02.072 So, if, if you wanna follow, bobby, there is a link to his LinkedIn profile and his website in the show notes@transformativeprinciple.org. 00:25:02.552 --> 00:25:08.372 If you want to improve your own leadership, you can apply to join the mastermind@transformativeprinciple.com. 00:25:08.642 --> 00:25:11.702 Bobby, thank you so much for being part of transformative principle today. 00:25:12.412 --> 00:25:13.412 Bobby Canosa-Carr: Yeah, thanks, jetro. 00:25:13.622 --> 00:25:14.672 Enjoyed the conversation. 00:25:14.672 --> 00:25:15.392 Appreciate the opportunity.