Duke: all right, Corey, what are we going with today
CJ: Oh man, duke, today's gonna be a good one.
We're going beyond the cert.
Duke: beyond the cert?
Holy mackerel, because I got some, uh, uh, gotta defend my rep again.
I think I have a bad rep though.
I think people think I'm Antier.
CJ: So why would they think that Duke,
Duke: Um
CJ: like I know you're anti categories.
Duke: Oh yeah, yeah, for sure.
I'm anti category.
Oh boy.
Have we done a episode on the category tree yet?
CJ: We have definitely not done one on light.
The category tree on fire.
Duke: yeah, we should do that.
CJ: Well, he should.
Duke: should be a video and we should just.
Print out category trees and just burn them in a
CJ: Yeah, just think exactly.
Throw him in a solo stove.
Duke: Okay.
Anyway, so beyond the cer.
Okay.
Why do people think that I'm Anticit?
Probably because I talk about them in ways that people don't expect,
CJ: Okay.
Duke: Like I in, nuanced ways.
So I think.
Only simple idea scale, and the simplest idea for certs is that you
get the cert and you are qualified.
CJ: Right.
Okay.
Duke: that that's like the market just eats that message up on
both sides of the house, right?
CJ: Yeah.
Yeah.
It's, it's kind of what they're selling.
Yeah.
Duke: Yeah.
I mean the, the, the people who sell you the cert, big air quotes,
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: are selling the air quotes, credibility and the people who are
consuming that credibility, partners and customers want it to be true.
That the cert means that you are capable and credible and experienced.
CJ: right.
Duke: and not to say they're not valuable.
They certainly are valuable.
And not to say that you don't learn anything, cuz you certainly do learn
something in the same way that.
, somebody who's fresh out of university with a medical
degree, knows about surgery.
CJ: Right.
Yeah.
I mean like academic, Probably did something on the cadaver, , so
like, kinda like, you know, just like with assert, right?
It's academic knowledge and you've probably run through a simulator, you
know, And that's better than nothing.
Absolutely.
Right.
Duke: And I have no illusions about how much I know about war fighting, right?
But I imagine that there's a stark difference between having been trained for
months and months and months, how to fight wars and actually being in a firefight.
CJ: Yeah.
that's a pretty good metaphor, right?
Because I've, that one seems to, , present itself in a lot of books, right?
Like, you have that newly minted lieutenant comes in
and, and you know, is gone.
Through West Point and knows all the things.
Right?
And then as soon as they hit the ground right, and get into a firefight,
the person who's actually running the wars, the sergeant, right?
Because they've been there and done that, until the lieutenant they're,
and they're essentially, now this is telling the lieutenant, this is
where your real training begins,
Duke: Yeah.
again, I'm not anti certain they have value.
Yes, you learned something, but to me credibility is evidence of,
of having been there and done it.
CJ: yeah.
Agree, right?
So how, how do you get that evidence, right?
Like how do you symbolize and convey that you have that evidence
of having been there, done it.
Duke: And that's, I mean, it's the difficult part.
When I say the stuff I say about certs, I'm not like pointing fingers
and passing moral judgment on anyone.
Right.
CJ: I hope not cuz I got a lot of them.
Duke: What's that?
CJ: I said I hope.
I hope not.
Cause I got a lot of.
Duke: No, and, and good for you, man.
Like, and I don't, and I've been hurt by it.
, so.
I guess it's just, there's the reality that we want, and the reality that
is, and I'm far more interested in the reality, it is how does it really work?
You know what I mean?
What is the real value of them?
And, and there is real value in them, but it's just, it's, more complicated
than the market lets you on in that you have cert there for you are a credible.
And again, only.
Simple idea scale cuz try telling the market this gigantic hive mind
without a single consciousness.
Try telling the market.
The certification prepares you for credibility, but then you
need a few trials in the fire and then you are truly capable.
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: Like, it just, it too many words.
CJ: Yeah.
it does become more complex than nuanced at that point.
Right.
Like it, you know, you say, Hey, I need you to have a cert.
It's like, great.
Oh, but I also need, right.
And that's the part of it that, that it, that doesn't get
really conveyed by the market.
Right.
That, and I also need, right.
And.
Duke: Yeah, and I think the market has it, pressure release for the fact
that the certs aren't always giving credibility either, And that, and
that's why you have stuff like must have two or three years experience.
Why would they consistently put that if the cert was basically the definitive
prepare preparatory thing, sing.
CJ: Yeah, and so, it's funny that you mentioned that, right?
Cause I, I do kind of look at this as a combination effort, right?
it's kind of like how the sum of the parts are, are worth more
than them individually, right?
So you get two or three years of experience and you go on
interview and that's one thing.
But if you got two or three ex.
Years of experience plus assert, right?
Like then if someone knows, okay, you've not only been there and done
that, but you've also, taken a test that shows that you're at least
passable at it, And so that, that takes, that gives your experience a
little bit more authenticity, right?
Like it kind of validates it a bit more.
And that takes you to second level, right?
or an additional level in, , than someone who has just one
of either of those things.
Duke: I want to put a, definitively more positive spin on this too.
Like you can think of the certs as being the doctrine.
for anybody who's, of the religious bent, you think about going to some
kind of, religious school, right?
CJ: Hmm.
Duke: And you learn the doctrines of the religion from your religious text.
Well, that's way different
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: from living it out, right?
Like
CJ: Right,
Duke: can memorize the Bible, for the, for the Christians out there,
you can memorize the Bible, but.
It takes a special kind of experience to actually go out and minister to
the poor and the sick and the hungry, doesn't it Like it's a different game.
It's not reading, is it?
CJ: Yeah.
And it takes a, and, and that's a certain kind of experience, right?
Because you not only have to go out and do that thing, you have to do it well.
you have to have evidence that, of that, that you've done it because it takes, it
is a certain kind of way that you need to do it in order to be successful, right?
And so I just think ultimately When you do get that experience, it's completely
different than what you read in the book.
I remember back way back in the nineties, right when I got my, uh, M C S E there
was a, a huge influx of folks that, you know, we called Paper Mces, right?
There were.
There you go.
You know, but they were folks who could pass the test, right?
But if you put them inside of a, company with NT four, yeah, I'm
dating myself, but an NT four, um, a net Wendell network, right?
Like they'd, they'd be asking you how to create a user, and MCSE was
supposed to be a fairly advanced sort of certification, right?
So if you can't create a user.
You obviously haven't been there and done it, right.
So, yeah, the cert is the validation, that doctrine, right,
that I know the book of it.
But if you haven't done it right,
Duke: I will be the first person to say that part of the reason
I'm so passionate about this is because I was a, paper M C S E.
I had this stupid idea I was gonna be an accountant and I didn't plan my
education properly enough so I didn't have the right course prerequisites
to go through the accounting route in Canada, which is where I'm from.
, and so I'm like, what else can I do?
And a f a few of my friends were in it and they're like, oh, just go get your mcse.
I went to an MCSE bootcamp, came out with a paper mcse and.
I, did a few of like the worst interviews of my entire life.
I was a, I was a child, so that kind of happens, but you know what I mean?
It's just that deep discomfort of like, well, what can you do?
And I'm like, whatever you tell me to do, like I'm on the learn.
That real deep discomfort that you don't really have what they want
and you know it, and they know it.
And there's 25 minutes left at the interview.
CJ: Oh man, that is the worst.
Duke: Yeah, so I have been there.
and I really don't want this to come off as this huge negative thing or that I
don't believe in ServiceNow certification system or anything like that.
I'm just saying that there's a deeper, more nuanced reality and you
can still excel in that paradigm.
CJ: what we were saying right before we hit record.
Right.
And I think that it, it bears mentioning in the actual podcast is, there's a
reason when you get a certification, you don't automatically get the job.
and I think that's really all we're seeing here we're not, you
know, poo pulling certifications.
Like I said, I got quite a few.
I don't walk in and, and, you know, and slide my certifications across
the desk and then start working, there's still a conversation, right?
Duke: That.
Yeah.
if it did what people thought it did, then why did people get interviewed
CJ: Yeah.
and that experience that we're talking about two, three years experience like
that we maybe mentioned earlier what we just mean is that you need to have.
Done the thing , that the paper says you can do in some kind of way now,
that that could be hands-on labs, right?
That could be your own service now instance that you've built out , and
built processes for, and automations and integrations, whatever, right?
Like, and because the search's gonna get you the conversation, but the
conversation's gonna get you the job.
Right.
And, the hands on work that you're doing, it's going to, you know, help you
get that job through the conversation.
So,
Duke: So you can't rely on the cert to get you through the interview.
So what does get you through the interview?
CJ: it's a good question, right?
Duke: And what gets you through the interview if you don't have
the two or three years experience.
And I think that's where we can offer maybe a more hopeful message, right?
CJ: Yeah, yeah.
No doubt.
Duke: there's strong hope out there
CJ: Yeah, and, and free hope too.
Duke: Free Yeah, totally, totally free hope the, the pdi, the Free Hope instance.
Okay, so maybe let's break down strategies for bridging that gap.
how can I challenge the two year thing?
How can I showcase credibility beyond the cert?
CJ: So where would you start?
Duke: Uh, which episode did we do the things to build while you're
learning how to build on ServiceNow?
CJ: Oh man.
Yeah, that, um, I don't know
Duke: I go back and listen to
CJ: we got again,
Duke: one is listen to that episode, but build on the P d I.
CJ: Yeah, absolutely.
Duke: And I have a cohort now of people who have gone through
ServiceNow boot camps and I'm bridging the gap there between.
What they've learned the boot camps and how do they show enough
credibility to get the job?
I have boot camps now.
You can contact me if you want in on one or the next one, but, a thing
that came up on that was, , you have to express what you can do in
ServiceNow, in, in coherent solutions.
And it's still, it's like a, it's a federalism.
What does a coherent solution mean?
It means having all the pieces for a full solution, all the pieces.
So a lot of people will say like, the boot camps taught me a ton
about how to build catalog items.
I can build catalog items.
Great.
Can you use Flow Designer?
No.
I don't really know how to use Flow Designer.
Okay, well then you don't really know how to use catalog items.
CJ: Right.
Duke: It's like, whatcha gonna do with half a coin?
CJ: Yeah.
Yeah.
Right,
Duke: gonna do with, with two wheels on a pickup truck?
It, it's.
You can't have one without the other, otherwise you're just listing features.
I know how to use UI actions for what?
CJ: Like, yeah, like where are you putting them?
But what are you doing with them?
and if you don't know that and you don't have the actual use case, , or
solution right, that the UI action is, um, executing, , then do you really
know what they're d what they do?
Right.
Yeah, sure.
You know the mechanism of it, right?
Like, you know where the table is, you know, you know where that it has a
couple places for code, blah, blah, blah.
Right?
But if you haven't done it, You haven't done it.
Duke: and we make the mistake.
I make this mistake super frequently.
Okay, so let's just start with me.
Like, I can't tell you how much trouble I've gotten into life where if I read
something and understand something I.
I have this idea in my head that I could have manifested that idea myself,
or I, I totally understand the idea.
I think it's the Dunning Kruger effect.
CJ: Yeah.
Duke: Right.
But, uh, but, but it's not true.
The reading and comprehending is a lot different than manifesting
and deeply understanding.
So you will go through your textbook, you will read the exercise, you
will understand it, but that does not mean that you know it.
So knowing it would mean applying the lessons in a completely different context.
That's why I keep saying you have to build, what do you build it?
It almost doesn't matter.
Go back and listen to our episode, but you have to build.
CJ: Yeah, I
Duke: to be extra in excess of what your bootcamp is telling you to do.
CJ: oh, that's a good one.
That's a good point, . Right.
It's not just the lessons, right?
It's got, you gotta get outside the box, right?
Like you gotta fail, and you gotta take the guard guardrails off and
then you gotta go out there and do something that is That isn't completely
scripted, Where you've gotta, where you have a step by step guidebook, right?
Like throw all it away and then try to do something right?
See what happens, right?
Something's gonna break.
Then you gotta figure out what broke and how you fix it, This
is where experience comes in.
This is how you get that applied knowledge, right?
By things going on, not by, um, things going right.
Duke: And you fill in the vagaries, right?
Like, , with this cohort, , I made them recreate my SOAP app, but I
didn't say, here's my SOAP app.
You recreate it.
First we go to catalog items, then we go to workflow, blah, blah, blah.
I didn't step by step, nothing, nothing.
I gave them nothing.
And we started off with, I told them, I make soap, I am
dissatisfied with the process.
You have to make me an app go.
CJ: Right.
Duke: And they had to struggle through the discomfort of, but
we don't know what to build.
I'm like, then ask me intelligent questions about what I
don't like about my process.
CJ: Vasco.
Duke: You know?
And they struggled through it and eventually they got all the requirements
that they needed and then, there's still vague stuff that they, you know,
until they got to the build component.
Of that thing.
They're like, but really how does this work?
You know what I mean?
So there's, back to the stakeholder, it's just like a real life implementation.
CJ: Yeah.
Now let me ask you this question.
how many times along that course, did things break?
Duke: I'm not really sure because like I'm really proud of my cohort.
A couple of 'em just like they understood the data structure, they built the data
structure and then on their own time they built flow designer and one of them
just kept on going until she got it.
And so she may had many, many failures along the way, but she eventually got it.
And so we'll actually have a vi, I'll have a video in the description below that.
You can click and see how she overcame.
they struggled.
I don't know how they struggled specifically, but yeah, they struggled.
CJ: Yeah, and that's my point, right?
Like you don't have experience until you've experienced things, Brooklyn.
Duke: And they said specifically like, this is so much better
than learning it from a textbook or learning it from a course.
Because with the course it's just like, click here, then click here,
then click here, then click here.
I see.
I read.
I do.
I understand, but I didn't learn anything cuz
CJ: Exactly, because nothing
Duke: application.
CJ: Yeah.
Look, the, so that's the thing.
You, you know, you see, you read, you do, right?
But then you also gotta learn, right?
So you gotta apply that in a way that's not, you know, step by step for you.
Duke: well, you know, something that like, well, you know, a lot of
things, I don't know a lot of 'em, but, virtual agent is one of those
things I just haven't gone deep on.
And I know you've done a couple virtual agent things, so how did you,
like even, how did you even start?
CJ: Oh, that's a good one.
Right.
So I, I've just always been interested in the, in the tech, just because I
like alternate user interfaces, right?
And I feel like, uh, chatbot is a great user interface for, service, management.
I feel like while portals are great, you should be able to go to a chatbot and
say, and I think we're gonna get there really quickly right now with chat G
P T, But you should be able to go to a chat bot and say, I'm having a problem
printing to, the printer, next to my desk.
Right?
And then that chat bot should be able to take that sentence, and then parse who
you are, where you sit, what printers are near you, figure out which one is
broken, fix it, and then report back.
That is my ideal kind of light bar of what great service management is, and the, and,
um, virtual agent is a way to get there.
Now we can do all of this now.
It's a little bit more, complicated, right?
Like parson the data and you gotta have, make sure you have all that stuff.
But the reason, that's the reason I kind of got into virtual agents cuz
I could see that potential there.
And the first thing I did, , I have my own instances.
So the first thing I did is I installed it and then I started playing with it.
Right.
And as I hit, places where things were broken and I got stuck, then I'd
either go to docs or I'd go to YouTube.
and I figure out how to get unstuck, and then I'd build some
more until I get stuck again.
Right.
And eventually, I'd gotten to the point I was really, really good at it.
and then, uh, you know, I had a client who wanted me to do implementation for him.
I jumped in and, you know, put some of my consulting skills to work.
Did the, like you said, ask intelligent questions To figure out like what they
actually, um, what the requirements around what they wanted to build were.
And then I got to it and because I had been doing it for a while right?
And I had, gotten a microservice in it and I've, you know, built my own
environment and, and different things and I experienced it breaking, right?
Like, I, I was able to jump in with the client and actually, deliver value.
So that's kind of how it works.
Duke: There's one thing I love about what you said about that
right at the beginning is that you loved the idea before you even,
CJ: Yeah.
Yeah.
Duke: by the value of the idea before you even started laying hands on it and.
Think about all the times on this podcast we've talked about,
like understanding the outcomes
CJ: Yes.
Duke: and, and it's like you kind of understood what the outcomes would be
beforehand, so you had a vested interest in knowing , how the engine worked.
CJ: No, that's a really good point.
I did it right.
Like, so I, I did have, like, I had a solution I was working towards, right.
And that solution was rather vague, but it was outcomes that I were
trying, that I was trying to get to.
Right?
I, I, I think this technology is cool.
I think it's gonna be able to do X, Y, and Z right?
In a general sense.
Now let me build it and get there absolutely.
You, I, do think you need to have that visualization first, right?
Of, where you want to go with the think.
Duke: we've talked about that for the tech side, but recently
I've been asked the same kind of question on the implementation side.
So if I wanted to show that I'm a credible implementer of I T S M or S P M or
SecOps, whatever, how do I showcase that?
Like how do I build credibility with that?
Do I not need to be on implementations?
But then to be on an implementation, I have to show credibility anyway,
so how do I get out of that loop?
CJ: Ooh.
Yeah, that one's tough, right?
It's funny, you gotta have knowledge in order to get experience.
, , and most people always, it is really hard when you're starting out, right?
To find someone who's willing to take a chance on, a newbie.
, but you have to do all you can do, to generate that applied learning
so that you can speak to it.
Right when you're being asked, I mean, I, I think that's really the, case.
And like you said, speaking towards solutions rather than features, often
gets folks, um, a little bit more motivated to help you out, Because when
you're speaking towards, solutions, you can show that you understand
the implement, the implementation and integration of those parts.
Duke: So here's what I would do to stack the deck in my favor.
And again, it's coming from personal experience.
I did it once with, I T B M.
Now, s p m, make a playbook, we already know that you should be like understanding
the outcomes that this app provides anyway, but also figure out the main
features it has and how they work.
Literally write it down how they work.
And if you can do that once, then you've basically got the better parts of a
training guide and a starting point for documentation for things that you add.
But.
Also, if you do it once for every other interview afterwards, even
if you've done precisely zero implementations, like, okay, so,
but what do you wanna know about?
Yeah, I have zero implementations.
But what do you wanna know?
You wanna know how to, plan costs for a project?
Okay.
, here's how you do it.
Do you wanna know how to, , baseline a project?
This is how you do it.
Do you want to know how to compare, , any number of your baselines
together and see where the drift was?
Here's how you do it.
You wanna know what it's like to screen a demand and then resize and
reshape it via the tribal council.
Here's how you do that.
And that's what I did before I went on an it P implementation.
So it's like whatever scenario you're going to get to on site, they're
doing all this stuff somehow anyway.
This is just, I know the way they do it in service now and we'll get there together.
So build yourself a playbook.
And yeah, it's a ton of work.
But you know what, it also is forward motion towards what you want, whereas
I'm gonna say it, hope casting that somebody's just gonna give you a chance
is also not getting where you want to be.
CJ: there's one last thing that I think we wanted to empa emphasize on this.
in terms of, being able to show, your expertise or that you've done the work or
that you have, knowledge in addition to, or that you have practical, application
of skills in addition to knowledge.
Duke: It's kind of funny.
I, I was building an asset for my cohort because I was noticing there
were just, certain parts of lists that they just didn't understand and I'm
like, list is like the most basic thing.
But like, nobody sat there and taught them.
And then I'm like, okay, let's figure out all the things that say a list could do.
The simplest, most mundane, most primitive thing in service Now a list of records.
And I got 21 things, 21 distinct things that you can do with a list.
CJ: Wow.
Duke: And so if I can do it for lists, you can do it.
Virtual agent, you can do it for performance analytics, it
is kind of like the playbook for the process, but more for a tech.
Right.
CJ: Right.
Duke: And it showcases that you, just know this.
So it's like, oh, you wanna talk about lists?
What part of list do you wanna talk about?
Navigation of a list.
Do you wanna talk about querying and searching a A list?
Do you wanna talk about advanced displays?
Do you wanna talk about list utility?
Like importing, exporting?
Like what do you want?
And It solidifies what you know already.
So especially if you're a beginner, write down everything you know about
managing a list in ServiceNow and then, Send that to a peer, send it to a mentor.
If you got one, send it to the community at large and say,
what am I missing out of this?
CJ: And you know, dude, I totally get that, right?
If you can take something that's just like a list view and then come back with
these features that you've pulled out of it and it's just something as simple
as that and it shows your understanding of that kind of like core feature.
Absolutely.
Makes sense.
Duke: Not only that, but , even if it's a text document, now you
have some kind of asset that is cataloging the things that you learn.
everybody sleeps on taking notes, right?
CJ: Yeah.
, Duke: just catalog the stuff that you're learning.
Like write it down.
I learned that a record producer does this.
I learned that variables on record producers, if they're named the
same way as the call name of the table, you don't have to actually
map the things to whatever, but.
Okay, technical difficulty today our recording software is telling us that
there's actually a limit to our record.
So Corey and I have to jet early today.
sorry to say it folks, but the road.
CJ: You, you make it sound so fatalistic seeing this is it.
This is, this is it.
You know, duke has been nice knowing you.
Duke: The very last episode today.
The very last episode today.
CJ: Today
and still don't have an outro.
Duke: and still don't, yeah, someday we will.
Okay, we'll see you on the next one, folks.