WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:01:40.558 --> 00:01:42.058 Duke: all right, Corey, what are we going with today 00:01:42.958 --> 00:01:44.668 CJ: Oh man, duke, today's gonna be a good one. 00:01:44.668 --> 00:01:46.588 We're going beyond the cert. 00:01:46.618 --> 00:01:47.698 Duke: beyond the cert? 00:01:47.728 --> 00:01:55.599 Holy mackerel, because I got some, uh, uh, gotta defend my rep again. 00:01:57.824 --> 00:01:59.064 I think I have a bad rep though. 00:01:59.064 --> 00:02:00.564 I think people think I'm Antier. 00:02:01.578 --> 00:02:03.318 CJ: So why would they think that Duke, 00:02:05.178 --> 00:02:05.838 Duke: Um 00:02:06.528 --> 00:02:08.538 CJ: like I know you're anti categories. 00:02:09.168 --> 00:02:10.698 Duke: Oh yeah, yeah, for sure. 00:02:10.698 --> 00:02:11.628 I'm anti category. 00:02:13.428 --> 00:02:14.268 Oh boy. 00:02:14.328 --> 00:02:16.638 Have we done a episode on the category tree yet? 00:02:16.818 --> 00:02:18.588 CJ: We have definitely not done one on light. 00:02:18.588 --> 00:02:19.968 The category tree on fire. 00:02:20.688 --> 00:02:21.768 Duke: yeah, we should do that. 00:02:22.083 --> 00:02:22.773 CJ: Well, he should. 00:02:23.028 --> 00:02:24.319 Duke: should be a video and we should just. 00:02:25.203 --> 00:02:27.693 Print out category trees and just burn them in a 00:02:27.753 --> 00:02:29.403 CJ: Yeah, just think exactly. 00:02:29.403 --> 00:02:30.413 Throw him in a solo stove. 00:02:31.083 --> 00:02:31.323 Duke: Okay. 00:02:31.323 --> 00:02:33.213 Anyway, so beyond the cer. 00:02:33.243 --> 00:02:33.453 Okay. 00:02:33.453 --> 00:02:35.583 Why do people think that I'm Anticit? 00:02:35.943 --> 00:02:41.007 Probably because I talk about them in ways that people don't expect, 00:02:41.767 --> 00:02:42.057 CJ: Okay. 00:02:42.417 --> 00:02:44.817 Duke: Like I in, nuanced ways. 00:02:45.807 --> 00:02:46.557 So I think. 00:02:47.502 --> 00:02:51.822 Only simple idea scale, and the simplest idea for certs is that you 00:02:51.822 --> 00:02:53.862 get the cert and you are qualified. 00:02:54.378 --> 00:02:54.728 CJ: Right. 00:02:55.118 --> 00:02:55.408 Okay. 00:02:55.603 --> 00:02:58.933 Duke: that that's like the market just eats that message up on 00:02:58.933 --> 00:03:00.343 both sides of the house, right? 00:03:02.358 --> 00:03:02.648 CJ: Yeah. 00:03:02.938 --> 00:03:03.328 Yeah. 00:03:03.328 --> 00:03:05.158 It's, it's kind of what they're selling. 00:03:05.158 --> 00:03:05.548 Yeah. 00:03:05.713 --> 00:03:05.923 Duke: Yeah. 00:03:05.928 --> 00:03:10.033 I mean the, the, the people who sell you the cert, big air quotes, 00:03:10.258 --> 00:03:10.708 CJ: Yeah. 00:03:10.891 --> 00:03:14.251 Duke: are selling the air quotes, credibility and the people who are 00:03:14.431 --> 00:03:18.585 consuming that credibility, partners and customers want it to be true. 00:03:18.585 --> 00:03:23.415 That the cert means that you are capable and credible and experienced. 00:03:23.640 --> 00:03:24.060 CJ: right. 00:03:24.301 --> 00:03:26.161 Duke: and not to say they're not valuable. 00:03:26.161 --> 00:03:27.691 They certainly are valuable. 00:03:27.961 --> 00:03:31.261 And not to say that you don't learn anything, cuz you certainly do learn 00:03:31.261 --> 00:03:34.471 something in the same way that. 00:03:34.896 --> 00:03:37.566 , somebody who's fresh out of university with a medical 00:03:37.566 --> 00:03:39.613 degree, knows about surgery. 00:03:43.483 --> 00:03:43.903 CJ: Right. 00:03:45.343 --> 00:03:45.643 Yeah. 00:03:45.643 --> 00:03:48.806 I mean like academic, Probably did something on the cadaver, , so 00:03:48.806 --> 00:03:50.966 like, kinda like, you know, just like with assert, right? 00:03:50.966 --> 00:03:54.356 It's academic knowledge and you've probably run through a simulator, you 00:03:54.356 --> 00:03:56.453 know, And that's better than nothing. 00:03:56.453 --> 00:03:57.323 Absolutely. 00:03:57.473 --> 00:03:57.803 Right. 00:03:57.998 --> 00:04:02.288 Duke: And I have no illusions about how much I know about war fighting, right? 00:04:02.288 --> 00:04:07.838 But I imagine that there's a stark difference between having been trained for 00:04:07.838 --> 00:04:12.515 months and months and months, how to fight wars and actually being in a firefight. 00:04:12.840 --> 00:04:13.320 CJ: Yeah. 00:04:13.380 --> 00:04:14.640 that's a pretty good metaphor, right? 00:04:14.640 --> 00:04:17.970 Because I've, that one seems to, , present itself in a lot of books, right? 00:04:17.975 --> 00:04:20.310 Like, you have that newly minted lieutenant comes in 00:04:20.820 --> 00:04:22.170 and, and you know, is gone. 00:04:22.350 --> 00:04:24.120 Through West Point and knows all the things. 00:04:24.120 --> 00:04:24.450 Right? 00:04:24.690 --> 00:04:27.540 And then as soon as they hit the ground right, and get into a firefight, 00:04:27.810 --> 00:04:30.660 the person who's actually running the wars, the sergeant, right? 00:04:30.660 --> 00:04:33.370 Because they've been there and done that, until the lieutenant they're, 00:04:33.370 --> 00:04:35.900 and they're essentially, now this is telling the lieutenant, this is 00:04:35.900 --> 00:04:37.430 where your real training begins, 00:04:37.720 --> 00:04:38.010 Duke: Yeah. 00:04:38.363 --> 00:04:40.283 again, I'm not anti certain they have value. 00:04:40.343 --> 00:04:44.686 Yes, you learned something, but to me credibility is evidence of, 00:04:44.691 --> 00:04:46.306 of having been there and done it. 00:04:46.670 --> 00:04:46.880 CJ: yeah. 00:04:46.880 --> 00:04:47.630 Agree, right? 00:04:47.680 --> 00:04:50.080 So how, how do you get that evidence, right? 00:04:50.080 --> 00:04:53.530 Like how do you symbolize and convey that you have that evidence 00:04:53.530 --> 00:04:54.690 of having been there, done it. 00:04:55.120 --> 00:04:57.790 Duke: And that's, I mean, it's the difficult part. 00:04:57.790 --> 00:05:00.460 When I say the stuff I say about certs, I'm not like pointing fingers 00:05:00.460 --> 00:05:03.130 and passing moral judgment on anyone. 00:05:03.310 --> 00:05:03.700 Right. 00:05:04.435 --> 00:05:06.055 CJ: I hope not cuz I got a lot of them. 00:05:06.430 --> 00:05:06.880 Duke: What's that? 00:05:07.435 --> 00:05:07.975 CJ: I said I hope. 00:05:08.275 --> 00:05:08.815 I hope not. 00:05:08.815 --> 00:05:09.535 Cause I got a lot of. 00:05:10.740 --> 00:05:12.580 Duke: No, and, and good for you, man. 00:05:12.580 --> 00:05:14.920 Like, and I don't, and I've been hurt by it. 00:05:15.370 --> 00:05:16.120 , so. 00:05:16.330 --> 00:05:19.390 I guess it's just, there's the reality that we want, and the reality that 00:05:19.390 --> 00:05:22.810 is, and I'm far more interested in the reality, it is how does it really work? 00:05:23.230 --> 00:05:23.740 You know what I mean? 00:05:23.740 --> 00:05:25.570 What is the real value of them? 00:05:25.570 --> 00:05:29.080 And, and there is real value in them, but it's just, it's, more complicated 00:05:29.085 --> 00:05:32.910 than the market lets you on in that you have cert there for you are a credible. 00:05:34.390 --> 00:05:35.526 And again, only. 00:05:35.526 --> 00:05:40.866 Simple idea scale cuz try telling the market this gigantic hive mind 00:05:41.376 --> 00:05:42.686 without a single consciousness. 00:05:43.566 --> 00:05:44.766 Try telling the market. 00:05:44.800 --> 00:05:47.500 The certification prepares you for credibility, but then you 00:05:47.530 --> 00:05:51.490 need a few trials in the fire and then you are truly capable. 00:05:51.866 --> 00:05:52.376 CJ: Yeah. 00:05:52.486 --> 00:05:54.466 Duke: Like, it just, it too many words. 00:05:57.056 --> 00:05:57.416 CJ: Yeah. 00:05:57.438 --> 00:05:59.863 it does become more complex than nuanced at that point. 00:05:59.863 --> 00:06:00.073 Right. 00:06:00.073 --> 00:06:02.743 Like it, you know, you say, Hey, I need you to have a cert. 00:06:02.743 --> 00:06:03.523 It's like, great. 00:06:03.823 --> 00:06:05.323 Oh, but I also need, right. 00:06:05.323 --> 00:06:07.633 And that's the part of it that, that it, that doesn't get 00:06:07.633 --> 00:06:08.743 really conveyed by the market. 00:06:08.743 --> 00:06:08.953 Right. 00:06:09.013 --> 00:06:11.473 That, and I also need, right. 00:06:11.473 --> 00:06:11.773 And. 00:06:12.693 --> 00:06:16.678 Duke: Yeah, and I think the market has it, pressure release for the fact 00:06:16.768 --> 00:06:20.478 that the certs aren't always giving credibility either, And that, and 00:06:20.478 --> 00:06:23.658 that's why you have stuff like must have two or three years experience. 00:06:23.688 --> 00:06:27.888 Why would they consistently put that if the cert was basically the definitive 00:06:27.893 --> 00:06:30.148 prepare preparatory thing, sing. 00:06:31.213 --> 00:06:33.403 CJ: Yeah, and so, it's funny that you mentioned that, right? 00:06:33.408 --> 00:06:36.583 Cause I, I do kind of look at this as a combination effort, right? 00:06:36.620 --> 00:06:39.080 it's kind of like how the sum of the parts are, are worth more 00:06:39.080 --> 00:06:40.610 than them individually, right? 00:06:40.610 --> 00:06:43.610 So you get two or three years of experience and you go on 00:06:43.610 --> 00:06:44.630 interview and that's one thing. 00:06:44.630 --> 00:06:45.471 But if you got two or three ex. 00:06:45.650 --> 00:06:47.930 Years of experience plus assert, right? 00:06:47.935 --> 00:06:50.540 Like then if someone knows, okay, you've not only been there and done 00:06:50.540 --> 00:06:54.233 that, but you've also, taken a test that shows that you're at least 00:06:54.233 --> 00:06:58.100 passable at it, And so that, that takes, that gives your experience a 00:06:58.100 --> 00:06:59.510 little bit more authenticity, right? 00:06:59.515 --> 00:07:01.130 Like it kind of validates it a bit more. 00:07:01.430 --> 00:07:03.490 And that takes you to second level, right? 00:07:03.550 --> 00:07:07.580 or an additional level in, , than someone who has just one 00:07:07.580 --> 00:07:08.840 of either of those things. 00:07:09.193 --> 00:07:12.403 Duke: I want to put a, definitively more positive spin on this too. 00:07:13.213 --> 00:07:16.563 Like you can think of the certs as being the doctrine. 00:07:16.756 --> 00:07:20.303 for anybody who's, of the religious bent, you think about going to some 00:07:20.303 --> 00:07:22.463 kind of, religious school, right? 00:07:22.958 --> 00:07:23.318 CJ: Hmm. 00:07:23.753 --> 00:07:27.443 Duke: And you learn the doctrines of the religion from your religious text. 00:07:27.953 --> 00:07:29.633 Well, that's way different 00:07:30.693 --> 00:07:30.983 CJ: Yeah. 00:07:31.423 --> 00:07:32.673 Duke: from living it out, right? 00:07:32.703 --> 00:07:32.993 Like 00:07:33.473 --> 00:07:33.953 CJ: Right, 00:07:34.073 --> 00:07:36.910 Duke: can memorize the Bible, for the, for the Christians out there, 00:07:36.910 --> 00:07:38.530 you can memorize the Bible, but. 00:07:38.595 --> 00:07:42.555 It takes a special kind of experience to actually go out and minister to 00:07:42.555 --> 00:07:45.855 the poor and the sick and the hungry, doesn't it Like it's a different game. 00:07:45.855 --> 00:07:46.905 It's not reading, is it? 00:07:47.626 --> 00:07:47.896 CJ: Yeah. 00:07:47.896 --> 00:07:50.476 And it takes a, and, and that's a certain kind of experience, right? 00:07:50.476 --> 00:07:53.866 Because you not only have to go out and do that thing, you have to do it well. 00:07:53.892 --> 00:07:57.852 you have to have evidence that, of that, that you've done it because it takes, it 00:07:57.857 --> 00:08:01.272 is a certain kind of way that you need to do it in order to be successful, right? 00:08:01.272 --> 00:08:05.569 And so I just think ultimately When you do get that experience, it's completely 00:08:05.569 --> 00:08:07.309 different than what you read in the book. 00:08:07.309 --> 00:08:12.259 I remember back way back in the nineties, right when I got my, uh, M C S E there 00:08:12.259 --> 00:08:17.419 was a, a huge influx of folks that, you know, we called Paper Mces, right? 00:08:17.689 --> 00:08:17.899 There were. 00:08:20.594 --> 00:08:21.414 There you go. 00:08:24.294 --> 00:08:26.544 You know, but they were folks who could pass the test, right? 00:08:26.549 --> 00:08:30.114 But if you put them inside of a, company with NT four, yeah, I'm 00:08:30.114 --> 00:08:34.074 dating myself, but an NT four, um, a net Wendell network, right? 00:08:34.074 --> 00:08:38.064 Like they'd, they'd be asking you how to create a user, and MCSE was 00:08:38.064 --> 00:08:40.854 supposed to be a fairly advanced sort of certification, right? 00:08:40.859 --> 00:08:42.054 So if you can't create a user. 00:08:42.054 --> 00:08:44.131 You obviously haven't been there and done it, right. 00:08:44.341 --> 00:08:48.336 So, yeah, the cert is the validation, that doctrine, right, 00:08:48.336 --> 00:08:49.596 that I know the book of it. 00:08:49.716 --> 00:08:51.376 But if you haven't done it right, 00:08:52.237 --> 00:08:55.597 Duke: I will be the first person to say that part of the reason 00:08:55.597 --> 00:08:59.421 I'm so passionate about this is because I was a, paper M C S E. 00:09:00.467 --> 00:09:04.157 I had this stupid idea I was gonna be an accountant and I didn't plan my 00:09:04.162 --> 00:09:07.347 education properly enough so I didn't have the right course prerequisites 00:09:07.347 --> 00:09:10.527 to go through the accounting route in Canada, which is where I'm from. 00:09:10.827 --> 00:09:12.717 , and so I'm like, what else can I do? 00:09:12.717 --> 00:09:16.257 And a f a few of my friends were in it and they're like, oh, just go get your mcse. 00:09:16.257 --> 00:09:20.667 I went to an MCSE bootcamp, came out with a paper mcse and. 00:09:20.931 --> 00:09:24.651 I, did a few of like the worst interviews of my entire life. 00:09:24.651 --> 00:09:29.241 I was a, I was a child, so that kind of happens, but you know what I mean? 00:09:29.241 --> 00:09:32.151 It's just that deep discomfort of like, well, what can you do? 00:09:32.151 --> 00:09:35.061 And I'm like, whatever you tell me to do, like I'm on the learn. 00:09:36.441 --> 00:09:39.232 That real deep discomfort that you don't really have what they want 00:09:39.331 --> 00:09:40.971 and you know it, and they know it. 00:09:40.971 --> 00:09:42.561 And there's 25 minutes left at the interview. 00:09:43.161 --> 00:09:47.471 CJ: Oh man, that is the worst. 00:09:47.976 --> 00:09:50.226 Duke: Yeah, so I have been there. 00:09:50.286 --> 00:09:54.156 and I really don't want this to come off as this huge negative thing or that I 00:09:54.156 --> 00:09:57.126 don't believe in ServiceNow certification system or anything like that. 00:09:57.131 --> 00:10:02.166 I'm just saying that there's a deeper, more nuanced reality and you 00:10:02.166 --> 00:10:04.356 can still excel in that paradigm. 00:10:05.121 --> 00:10:06.981 CJ: what we were saying right before we hit record. 00:10:06.981 --> 00:10:07.161 Right. 00:10:07.161 --> 00:10:10.941 And I think that it, it bears mentioning in the actual podcast is, there's a 00:10:10.941 --> 00:10:14.651 reason when you get a certification, you don't automatically get the job. 00:10:14.724 --> 00:10:17.574 and I think that's really all we're seeing here we're not, you 00:10:17.574 --> 00:10:18.864 know, poo pulling certifications. 00:10:18.864 --> 00:10:20.064 Like I said, I got quite a few. 00:10:20.374 --> 00:10:23.674 I don't walk in and, and, you know, and slide my certifications across 00:10:23.674 --> 00:10:27.287 the desk and then start working, there's still a conversation, right? 00:10:27.342 --> 00:10:27.582 Duke: That. 00:10:27.612 --> 00:10:28.152 Yeah. 00:10:28.194 --> 00:10:31.914 if it did what people thought it did, then why did people get interviewed 00:10:32.247 --> 00:10:32.607 CJ: Yeah. 00:10:32.819 --> 00:10:36.564 and that experience that we're talking about two, three years experience like 00:10:36.569 --> 00:10:40.501 that we maybe mentioned earlier what we just mean is that you need to have. 00:10:40.501 --> 00:10:45.144 Done the thing , that the paper says you can do in some kind of way now, 00:10:45.144 --> 00:10:46.914 that that could be hands-on labs, right? 00:10:47.124 --> 00:10:50.259 That could be your own service now instance that you've built out , and 00:10:50.259 --> 00:10:54.249 built processes for, and automations and integrations, whatever, right? 00:10:54.399 --> 00:10:58.239 Like, and because the search's gonna get you the conversation, but the 00:10:58.239 --> 00:10:59.889 conversation's gonna get you the job. 00:11:00.819 --> 00:11:01.154 Right. 00:11:01.304 --> 00:11:05.447 And, the hands on work that you're doing, it's going to, you know, help you 00:11:05.537 --> 00:11:07.127 get that job through the conversation. 00:11:07.127 --> 00:11:07.427 So, 00:11:07.938 --> 00:11:10.728 Duke: So you can't rely on the cert to get you through the interview. 00:11:10.728 --> 00:11:12.888 So what does get you through the interview? 00:11:12.968 --> 00:11:14.138 CJ: it's a good question, right? 00:11:14.373 --> 00:11:17.313 Duke: And what gets you through the interview if you don't have 00:11:17.313 --> 00:11:18.933 the two or three years experience. 00:11:19.233 --> 00:11:22.923 And I think that's where we can offer maybe a more hopeful message, right? 00:11:23.613 --> 00:11:24.123 CJ: Yeah, yeah. 00:11:24.123 --> 00:11:24.633 No doubt. 00:11:24.987 --> 00:11:26.547 Duke: there's strong hope out there 00:11:26.862 --> 00:11:28.782 CJ: Yeah, and, and free hope too. 00:11:29.712 --> 00:11:35.412 Duke: Free Yeah, totally, totally free hope the, the pdi, the Free Hope instance. 00:11:37.542 --> 00:11:42.282 Okay, so maybe let's break down strategies for bridging that gap. 00:11:42.282 --> 00:11:44.412 how can I challenge the two year thing? 00:11:44.532 --> 00:11:48.302 How can I showcase credibility beyond the cert? 00:11:48.691 --> 00:11:49.501 CJ: So where would you start? 00:11:49.970 --> 00:11:52.590 Duke: Uh, which episode did we do the things to build while you're 00:11:52.590 --> 00:11:53.590 learning how to build on ServiceNow? 00:11:54.345 --> 00:11:54.795 CJ: Oh man. 00:11:54.795 --> 00:11:56.775 Yeah, that, um, I don't know 00:11:57.660 --> 00:11:58.590 Duke: I go back and listen to 00:11:58.640 --> 00:11:59.475 CJ: we got again, 00:11:59.670 --> 00:12:04.650 Duke: one is listen to that episode, but build on the P d I. 00:12:05.175 --> 00:12:06.225 CJ: Yeah, absolutely. 00:12:06.840 --> 00:12:10.380 Duke: And I have a cohort now of people who have gone through 00:12:10.380 --> 00:12:13.070 ServiceNow boot camps and I'm bridging the gap there between. 00:12:13.398 --> 00:12:15.888 What they've learned the boot camps and how do they show enough 00:12:15.888 --> 00:12:16.728 credibility to get the job? 00:12:16.728 --> 00:12:17.688 I have boot camps now. 00:12:17.693 --> 00:12:21.943 You can contact me if you want in on one or the next one, but, a thing 00:12:21.943 --> 00:12:25.783 that came up on that was, , you have to express what you can do in 00:12:25.788 --> 00:12:29.203 ServiceNow, in, in coherent solutions. 00:12:29.443 --> 00:12:31.213 And it's still, it's like a, it's a federalism. 00:12:32.323 --> 00:12:34.003 What does a coherent solution mean? 00:12:34.483 --> 00:12:38.773 It means having all the pieces for a full solution, all the pieces. 00:12:38.773 --> 00:12:41.520 So a lot of people will say like, the boot camps taught me a ton 00:12:41.520 --> 00:12:42.660 about how to build catalog items. 00:12:42.665 --> 00:12:43.680 I can build catalog items. 00:12:43.770 --> 00:12:43.980 Great. 00:12:43.980 --> 00:12:44.880 Can you use Flow Designer? 00:12:44.940 --> 00:12:45.180 No. 00:12:45.180 --> 00:12:46.380 I don't really know how to use Flow Designer. 00:12:46.800 --> 00:12:48.560 Okay, well then you don't really know how to use catalog items. 00:12:50.590 --> 00:12:50.940 CJ: Right. 00:12:51.330 --> 00:12:53.790 Duke: It's like, whatcha gonna do with half a coin? 00:12:54.400 --> 00:12:54.690 CJ: Yeah. 00:12:54.840 --> 00:12:55.130 Yeah. 00:12:55.130 --> 00:12:55.450 Right, 00:12:55.470 --> 00:12:58.320 Duke: gonna do with, with two wheels on a pickup truck? 00:12:58.530 --> 00:12:59.280 It, it's. 00:13:00.240 --> 00:13:03.746 You can't have one without the other, otherwise you're just listing features. 00:13:03.746 --> 00:13:05.676 I know how to use UI actions for what? 00:13:10.031 --> 00:13:11.381 CJ: Like, yeah, like where are you putting them? 00:13:11.381 --> 00:13:12.371 But what are you doing with them? 00:13:12.553 --> 00:13:15.973 and if you don't know that and you don't have the actual use case, , or 00:13:15.973 --> 00:13:20.288 solution right, that the UI action is, um, executing, , then do you really 00:13:20.293 --> 00:13:21.488 know what they're d what they do? 00:13:21.488 --> 00:13:21.489 Right. 00:13:21.728 --> 00:13:22.088 Yeah, sure. 00:13:22.088 --> 00:13:24.398 You know the mechanism of it, right? 00:13:24.398 --> 00:13:27.758 Like, you know where the table is, you know, you know where that it has a 00:13:27.758 --> 00:13:29.978 couple places for code, blah, blah, blah. 00:13:29.978 --> 00:13:30.248 Right? 00:13:30.253 --> 00:13:32.873 But if you haven't done it, You haven't done it. 00:13:33.231 --> 00:13:34.971 Duke: and we make the mistake. 00:13:35.338 --> 00:13:37.258 I make this mistake super frequently. 00:13:37.263 --> 00:13:39.508 Okay, so let's just start with me. 00:13:39.898 --> 00:13:43.648 Like, I can't tell you how much trouble I've gotten into life where if I read 00:13:43.648 --> 00:13:45.928 something and understand something I. 00:13:45.928 --> 00:13:50.413 I have this idea in my head that I could have manifested that idea myself, 00:13:50.443 --> 00:13:52.513 or I, I totally understand the idea. 00:13:53.173 --> 00:13:54.913 I think it's the Dunning Kruger effect. 00:13:55.663 --> 00:13:55.993 CJ: Yeah. 00:13:56.353 --> 00:13:56.803 Duke: Right. 00:13:56.983 --> 00:13:58.573 But, uh, but, but it's not true. 00:13:58.603 --> 00:14:02.473 The reading and comprehending is a lot different than manifesting 00:14:02.473 --> 00:14:03.873 and deeply understanding. 00:14:04.768 --> 00:14:09.661 So you will go through your textbook, you will read the exercise, you 00:14:09.661 --> 00:14:12.181 will understand it, but that does not mean that you know it. 00:14:12.481 --> 00:14:17.301 So knowing it would mean applying the lessons in a completely different context. 00:14:17.908 --> 00:14:22.438 That's why I keep saying you have to build, what do you build it? 00:14:22.468 --> 00:14:23.668 It almost doesn't matter. 00:14:23.668 --> 00:14:26.068 Go back and listen to our episode, but you have to build. 00:14:26.581 --> 00:14:26.851 CJ: Yeah, I 00:14:26.986 --> 00:14:31.396 Duke: to be extra in excess of what your bootcamp is telling you to do. 00:14:31.658 --> 00:14:32.618 CJ: oh, that's a good one. 00:14:32.618 --> 00:14:33.603 That's a good point, . Right. 00:14:33.603 --> 00:14:35.043 It's not just the lessons, right? 00:14:35.043 --> 00:14:37.233 It's got, you gotta get outside the box, right? 00:14:37.233 --> 00:14:41.173 Like you gotta fail, and you gotta take the guard guardrails off and 00:14:41.173 --> 00:14:44.733 then you gotta go out there and do something that is That isn't completely 00:14:44.733 --> 00:14:48.666 scripted, Where you've gotta, where you have a step by step guidebook, right? 00:14:48.666 --> 00:14:51.486 Like throw all it away and then try to do something right? 00:14:51.486 --> 00:14:52.206 See what happens, right? 00:14:52.206 --> 00:14:53.256 Something's gonna break. 00:14:53.436 --> 00:14:56.586 Then you gotta figure out what broke and how you fix it, This 00:14:56.586 --> 00:14:57.876 is where experience comes in. 00:14:57.876 --> 00:15:00.007 This is how you get that applied knowledge, right? 00:15:00.246 --> 00:15:03.096 By things going on, not by, um, things going right. 00:15:03.606 --> 00:15:05.886 Duke: And you fill in the vagaries, right? 00:15:05.886 --> 00:15:09.436 Like, , with this cohort, , I made them recreate my SOAP app, but I 00:15:09.436 --> 00:15:10.696 didn't say, here's my SOAP app. 00:15:10.701 --> 00:15:11.596 You recreate it. 00:15:11.596 --> 00:15:14.656 First we go to catalog items, then we go to workflow, blah, blah, blah. 00:15:14.836 --> 00:15:17.686 I didn't step by step, nothing, nothing. 00:15:17.686 --> 00:15:18.646 I gave them nothing. 00:15:20.086 --> 00:15:25.246 And we started off with, I told them, I make soap, I am 00:15:25.306 --> 00:15:27.166 dissatisfied with the process. 00:15:27.166 --> 00:15:28.726 You have to make me an app go. 00:15:29.208 --> 00:15:29.558 CJ: Right. 00:15:29.769 --> 00:15:32.139 Duke: And they had to struggle through the discomfort of, but 00:15:32.139 --> 00:15:33.279 we don't know what to build. 00:15:33.279 --> 00:15:35.889 I'm like, then ask me intelligent questions about what I 00:15:35.894 --> 00:15:37.779 don't like about my process. 00:15:38.994 --> 00:15:39.384 CJ: Vasco. 00:15:39.759 --> 00:15:40.119 Duke: You know? 00:15:40.119 --> 00:15:42.599 And they struggled through it and eventually they got all the requirements 00:15:42.789 --> 00:15:46.769 that they needed and then, there's still vague stuff that they, you know, 00:15:47.219 --> 00:15:48.989 until they got to the build component. 00:15:49.126 --> 00:15:49.756 Of that thing. 00:15:49.756 --> 00:15:51.406 They're like, but really how does this work? 00:15:51.586 --> 00:15:51.946 You know what I mean? 00:15:51.946 --> 00:15:55.036 So there's, back to the stakeholder, it's just like a real life implementation. 00:15:55.726 --> 00:15:56.086 CJ: Yeah. 00:15:56.536 --> 00:15:57.796 Now let me ask you this question. 00:15:57.956 --> 00:16:00.073 how many times along that course, did things break? 00:16:00.623 --> 00:16:04.763 Duke: I'm not really sure because like I'm really proud of my cohort. 00:16:04.763 --> 00:16:07.706 A couple of 'em just like they understood the data structure, they built the data 00:16:07.706 --> 00:16:11.516 structure and then on their own time they built flow designer and one of them 00:16:11.516 --> 00:16:13.316 just kept on going until she got it. 00:16:13.766 --> 00:16:17.126 And so she may had many, many failures along the way, but she eventually got it. 00:16:17.576 --> 00:16:21.206 And so we'll actually have a vi, I'll have a video in the description below that. 00:16:21.206 --> 00:16:23.996 You can click and see how she overcame. 00:16:24.403 --> 00:16:25.063 they struggled. 00:16:25.068 --> 00:16:27.673 I don't know how they struggled specifically, but yeah, they struggled. 00:16:28.303 --> 00:16:29.413 CJ: Yeah, and that's my point, right? 00:16:29.413 --> 00:16:32.223 Like you don't have experience until you've experienced things, Brooklyn. 00:16:32.803 --> 00:16:35.323 Duke: And they said specifically like, this is so much better 00:16:35.323 --> 00:16:38.303 than learning it from a textbook or learning it from a course. 00:16:38.303 --> 00:16:41.603 Because with the course it's just like, click here, then click here, 00:16:41.633 --> 00:16:42.833 then click here, then click here. 00:16:42.953 --> 00:16:43.523 I see. 00:16:43.523 --> 00:16:44.093 I read. 00:16:44.098 --> 00:16:44.723 I do. 00:16:44.873 --> 00:16:47.373 I understand, but I didn't learn anything cuz 00:16:47.933 --> 00:16:49.433 CJ: Exactly, because nothing 00:16:49.528 --> 00:16:49.933 Duke: application. 00:16:50.753 --> 00:16:51.113 CJ: Yeah. 00:16:51.536 --> 00:16:52.616 Look, the, so that's the thing. 00:16:52.916 --> 00:16:55.106 You, you know, you see, you read, you do, right? 00:16:55.106 --> 00:16:56.396 But then you also gotta learn, right? 00:16:56.396 --> 00:16:59.426 So you gotta apply that in a way that's not, you know, step by step for you. 00:16:59.936 --> 00:17:03.386 Duke: well, you know, something that like, well, you know, a lot of 00:17:03.386 --> 00:17:06.983 things, I don't know a lot of 'em, but, virtual agent is one of those 00:17:06.983 --> 00:17:08.153 things I just haven't gone deep on. 00:17:08.153 --> 00:17:10.733 And I know you've done a couple virtual agent things, so how did you, 00:17:10.733 --> 00:17:12.533 like even, how did you even start? 00:17:13.913 --> 00:17:14.663 CJ: Oh, that's a good one. 00:17:14.663 --> 00:17:14.873 Right. 00:17:14.873 --> 00:17:18.419 So I, I've just always been interested in the, in the tech, just because I 00:17:18.419 --> 00:17:20.489 like alternate user interfaces, right? 00:17:20.494 --> 00:17:25.404 And I feel like, uh, chatbot is a great user interface for, service, management. 00:17:25.623 --> 00:17:30.033 I feel like while portals are great, you should be able to go to a chatbot and 00:17:30.033 --> 00:17:33.063 say, and I think we're gonna get there really quickly right now with chat G 00:17:33.068 --> 00:17:37.343 P T, But you should be able to go to a chat bot and say, I'm having a problem 00:17:37.343 --> 00:17:40.249 printing to, the printer, next to my desk. 00:17:40.279 --> 00:17:40.579 Right? 00:17:40.579 --> 00:17:44.053 And then that chat bot should be able to take that sentence, and then parse who 00:17:44.058 --> 00:17:48.269 you are, where you sit, what printers are near you, figure out which one is 00:17:48.274 --> 00:17:50.610 broken, fix it, and then report back. 00:17:51.138 --> 00:17:56.624 That is my ideal kind of light bar of what great service management is, and the, and, 00:17:56.624 --> 00:17:58.934 um, virtual agent is a way to get there. 00:17:58.934 --> 00:18:01.394 Now we can do all of this now. 00:18:01.394 --> 00:18:02.804 It's a little bit more, complicated, right? 00:18:02.804 --> 00:18:05.594 Like parson the data and you gotta have, make sure you have all that stuff. 00:18:05.594 --> 00:18:08.804 But the reason, that's the reason I kind of got into virtual agents cuz 00:18:08.804 --> 00:18:10.124 I could see that potential there. 00:18:10.534 --> 00:18:13.174 And the first thing I did, , I have my own instances. 00:18:13.174 --> 00:18:16.594 So the first thing I did is I installed it and then I started playing with it. 00:18:17.294 --> 00:18:17.489 Right. 00:18:17.489 --> 00:18:21.389 And as I hit, places where things were broken and I got stuck, then I'd 00:18:21.389 --> 00:18:23.519 either go to docs or I'd go to YouTube. 00:18:23.659 --> 00:18:26.804 and I figure out how to get unstuck, and then I'd build some 00:18:26.804 --> 00:18:28.334 more until I get stuck again. 00:18:28.664 --> 00:18:28.844 Right. 00:18:28.844 --> 00:18:31.360 And eventually, I'd gotten to the point I was really, really good at it. 00:18:31.471 --> 00:18:34.736 and then, uh, you know, I had a client who wanted me to do implementation for him. 00:18:34.736 --> 00:18:38.276 I jumped in and, you know, put some of my consulting skills to work. 00:18:38.616 --> 00:18:41.983 Did the, like you said, ask intelligent questions To figure out like what they 00:18:41.983 --> 00:18:45.283 actually, um, what the requirements around what they wanted to build were. 00:18:45.283 --> 00:18:49.903 And then I got to it and because I had been doing it for a while right? 00:18:49.903 --> 00:18:53.553 And I had, gotten a microservice in it and I've, you know, built my own 00:18:53.553 --> 00:18:58.143 environment and, and different things and I experienced it breaking, right? 00:18:58.143 --> 00:19:01.443 Like, I, I was able to jump in with the client and actually, deliver value. 00:19:01.869 --> 00:19:02.919 So that's kind of how it works. 00:19:03.094 --> 00:19:05.444 Duke: There's one thing I love about what you said about that 00:19:05.444 --> 00:19:10.154 right at the beginning is that you loved the idea before you even, 00:19:10.401 --> 00:19:10.691 CJ: Yeah. 00:19:11.161 --> 00:19:11.451 Yeah. 00:19:11.731 --> 00:19:16.251 Duke: by the value of the idea before you even started laying hands on it and. 00:19:16.748 --> 00:19:18.968 Think about all the times on this podcast we've talked about, 00:19:18.968 --> 00:19:20.588 like understanding the outcomes 00:19:20.888 --> 00:19:21.108 CJ: Yes. 00:19:21.498 --> 00:19:24.368 Duke: and, and it's like you kind of understood what the outcomes would be 00:19:24.368 --> 00:19:28.558 beforehand, so you had a vested interest in knowing , how the engine worked. 00:19:28.608 --> 00:19:29.898 CJ: No, that's a really good point. 00:19:30.002 --> 00:19:30.662 I did it right. 00:19:30.662 --> 00:19:33.662 Like, so I, I did have, like, I had a solution I was working towards, right. 00:19:33.662 --> 00:19:37.157 And that solution was rather vague, but it was outcomes that I were 00:19:37.162 --> 00:19:38.237 trying, that I was trying to get to. 00:19:38.242 --> 00:19:38.387 Right? 00:19:38.392 --> 00:19:40.007 I, I, I think this technology is cool. 00:19:40.007 --> 00:19:42.257 I think it's gonna be able to do X, Y, and Z right? 00:19:42.257 --> 00:19:43.157 In a general sense. 00:19:43.162 --> 00:19:45.637 Now let me build it and get there absolutely. 00:19:45.697 --> 00:19:48.494 You, I, do think you need to have that visualization first, right? 00:19:48.494 --> 00:19:50.257 Of, where you want to go with the think. 00:19:50.828 --> 00:19:54.848 Duke: we've talked about that for the tech side, but recently 00:19:54.848 --> 00:19:57.968 I've been asked the same kind of question on the implementation side. 00:19:57.968 --> 00:20:03.877 So if I wanted to show that I'm a credible implementer of I T S M or S P M or 00:20:03.997 --> 00:20:07.897 SecOps, whatever, how do I showcase that? 00:20:09.007 --> 00:20:10.657 Like how do I build credibility with that? 00:20:10.657 --> 00:20:13.297 Do I not need to be on implementations? 00:20:13.486 --> 00:20:16.031 But then to be on an implementation, I have to show credibility anyway, 00:20:16.031 --> 00:20:17.471 so how do I get out of that loop? 00:20:18.002 --> 00:20:18.512 CJ: Ooh. 00:20:18.602 --> 00:20:19.832 Yeah, that one's tough, right? 00:20:19.882 --> 00:20:22.552 It's funny, you gotta have knowledge in order to get experience. 00:20:22.892 --> 00:20:26.612 , , and most people always, it is really hard when you're starting out, right? 00:20:26.612 --> 00:20:29.762 To find someone who's willing to take a chance on, a newbie. 00:20:29.862 --> 00:20:34.345 , but you have to do all you can do, to generate that applied learning 00:20:34.495 --> 00:20:35.345 so that you can speak to it. 00:20:36.140 --> 00:20:39.590 Right when you're being asked, I mean, I, I think that's really the, case. 00:20:39.590 --> 00:20:43.210 And like you said, speaking towards solutions rather than features, often 00:20:43.215 --> 00:20:47.107 gets folks, um, a little bit more motivated to help you out, Because when 00:20:47.107 --> 00:20:49.797 you're speaking towards, solutions, you can show that you understand 00:20:50.077 --> 00:20:53.107 the implement, the implementation and integration of those parts. 00:20:53.457 --> 00:20:55.857 Duke: So here's what I would do to stack the deck in my favor. 00:20:55.862 --> 00:20:57.567 And again, it's coming from personal experience. 00:20:57.572 --> 00:21:00.027 I did it once with, I T B M. 00:21:00.087 --> 00:21:04.372 Now, s p m, make a playbook, we already know that you should be like understanding 00:21:04.372 --> 00:21:09.562 the outcomes that this app provides anyway, but also figure out the main 00:21:09.562 --> 00:21:11.812 features it has and how they work. 00:21:11.812 --> 00:21:13.432 Literally write it down how they work. 00:21:13.855 --> 00:21:18.805 And if you can do that once, then you've basically got the better parts of a 00:21:18.805 --> 00:21:23.525 training guide and a starting point for documentation for things that you add. 00:21:23.805 --> 00:21:24.495 But. 00:21:25.395 --> 00:21:28.845 Also, if you do it once for every other interview afterwards, even 00:21:28.845 --> 00:21:32.125 if you've done precisely zero implementations, like, okay, so, 00:21:32.125 --> 00:21:33.175 but what do you wanna know about? 00:21:33.175 --> 00:21:34.735 Yeah, I have zero implementations. 00:21:34.740 --> 00:21:35.485 But what do you wanna know? 00:21:35.490 --> 00:21:37.855 You wanna know how to, plan costs for a project? 00:21:37.915 --> 00:21:38.335 Okay. 00:21:38.385 --> 00:21:39.165 , here's how you do it. 00:21:40.065 --> 00:21:43.115 Do you wanna know how to, , baseline a project? 00:21:44.105 --> 00:21:44.945 This is how you do it. 00:21:44.945 --> 00:21:47.805 Do you want to know how to compare, , any number of your baselines 00:21:47.805 --> 00:21:49.602 together and see where the drift was? 00:21:49.632 --> 00:21:50.472 Here's how you do it. 00:21:50.739 --> 00:21:55.009 You wanna know what it's like to screen a demand and then resize and 00:21:55.009 --> 00:21:56.839 reshape it via the tribal council. 00:21:56.989 --> 00:21:57.859 Here's how you do that. 00:21:58.109 --> 00:22:01.529 And that's what I did before I went on an it P implementation. 00:22:02.159 --> 00:22:04.975 So it's like whatever scenario you're going to get to on site, they're 00:22:04.975 --> 00:22:06.425 doing all this stuff somehow anyway. 00:22:06.615 --> 00:22:10.405 This is just, I know the way they do it in service now and we'll get there together. 00:22:11.095 --> 00:22:12.775 So build yourself a playbook. 00:22:13.405 --> 00:22:14.575 And yeah, it's a ton of work. 00:22:14.575 --> 00:22:20.072 But you know what, it also is forward motion towards what you want, whereas 00:22:21.032 --> 00:22:24.182 I'm gonna say it, hope casting that somebody's just gonna give you a chance 00:22:24.232 --> 00:22:25.882 is also not getting where you want to be. 00:22:26.217 --> 00:22:29.937 CJ: there's one last thing that I think we wanted to empa emphasize on this. 00:22:30.207 --> 00:22:35.826 in terms of, being able to show, your expertise or that you've done the work or 00:22:35.826 --> 00:22:39.906 that you have, knowledge in addition to, or that you have practical, application 00:22:39.906 --> 00:22:41.376 of skills in addition to knowledge. 00:22:41.873 --> 00:22:42.593 Duke: It's kind of funny. 00:22:42.593 --> 00:22:46.793 I, I was building an asset for my cohort because I was noticing there 00:22:46.793 --> 00:22:49.716 were just, certain parts of lists that they just didn't understand and I'm 00:22:49.721 --> 00:22:51.186 like, list is like the most basic thing. 00:22:51.186 --> 00:22:52.836 But like, nobody sat there and taught them. 00:22:52.841 --> 00:22:56.886 And then I'm like, okay, let's figure out all the things that say a list could do. 00:22:56.976 --> 00:23:02.363 The simplest, most mundane, most primitive thing in service Now a list of records. 00:23:03.563 --> 00:23:09.310 And I got 21 things, 21 distinct things that you can do with a list. 00:23:09.730 --> 00:23:10.180 CJ: Wow. 00:23:10.540 --> 00:23:13.406 Duke: And so if I can do it for lists, you can do it. 00:23:13.406 --> 00:23:16.386 Virtual agent, you can do it for performance analytics, it 00:23:16.391 --> 00:23:19.296 is kind of like the playbook for the process, but more for a tech. 00:23:19.301 --> 00:23:19.406 Right. 00:23:20.256 --> 00:23:20.616 CJ: Right. 00:23:21.336 --> 00:23:23.826 Duke: And it showcases that you, just know this. 00:23:23.826 --> 00:23:25.446 So it's like, oh, you wanna talk about lists? 00:23:25.446 --> 00:23:26.736 What part of list do you wanna talk about? 00:23:26.766 --> 00:23:27.936 Navigation of a list. 00:23:27.936 --> 00:23:31.296 Do you wanna talk about querying and searching a A list? 00:23:31.296 --> 00:23:33.336 Do you wanna talk about advanced displays? 00:23:33.336 --> 00:23:35.046 Do you wanna talk about list utility? 00:23:35.051 --> 00:23:36.186 Like importing, exporting? 00:23:36.186 --> 00:23:36.756 Like what do you want? 00:23:37.206 --> 00:23:40.086 And It solidifies what you know already. 00:23:40.446 --> 00:23:43.806 So especially if you're a beginner, write down everything you know about 00:23:43.806 --> 00:23:49.935 managing a list in ServiceNow and then, Send that to a peer, send it to a mentor. 00:23:49.935 --> 00:23:52.935 If you got one, send it to the community at large and say, 00:23:52.935 --> 00:23:54.195 what am I missing out of this? 00:23:54.515 --> 00:23:56.141 CJ: And you know, dude, I totally get that, right? 00:23:56.141 --> 00:24:00.071 If you can take something that's just like a list view and then come back with 00:24:00.251 --> 00:24:03.311 these features that you've pulled out of it and it's just something as simple 00:24:03.311 --> 00:24:06.251 as that and it shows your understanding of that kind of like core feature. 00:24:06.581 --> 00:24:07.211 Absolutely. 00:24:07.211 --> 00:24:07.571 Makes sense. 00:24:07.925 --> 00:24:10.295 Duke: Not only that, but , even if it's a text document, now you 00:24:10.295 --> 00:24:14.045 have some kind of asset that is cataloging the things that you learn. 00:24:14.045 --> 00:24:16.175 everybody sleeps on taking notes, right? 00:24:17.095 --> 00:24:17.425 CJ: Yeah. 00:24:17.741 --> 00:24:19.241 , Duke: just catalog the stuff that you're learning. 00:24:19.241 --> 00:24:19.961 Like write it down. 00:24:19.961 --> 00:24:22.091 I learned that a record producer does this. 00:24:22.091 --> 00:24:24.371 I learned that variables on record producers, if they're named the 00:24:24.371 --> 00:24:26.711 same way as the call name of the table, you don't have to actually 00:24:26.711 --> 00:24:28.661 map the things to whatever, but. 00:24:30.041 --> 00:24:34.091 Okay, technical difficulty today our recording software is telling us that 00:24:34.091 --> 00:24:35.321 there's actually a limit to our record. 00:24:35.321 --> 00:24:36.941 So Corey and I have to jet early today. 00:24:36.941 --> 00:24:39.061 sorry to say it folks, but the road. 00:24:41.941 --> 00:24:45.991 CJ: You, you make it sound so fatalistic seeing this is it. 00:24:46.191 --> 00:24:47.371 This is, this is it. 00:24:47.491 --> 00:24:49.051 You know, duke has been nice knowing you. 00:24:51.541 --> 00:24:53.611 Duke: The very last episode today. 00:24:53.611 --> 00:24:54.931 The very last episode today. 00:24:55.081 --> 00:24:55.651 CJ: Today 00:24:57.035 --> 00:24:58.295 and still don't have an outro. 00:24:58.895 --> 00:25:00.575 Duke: and still don't, yeah, someday we will. 00:25:00.605 --> 00:25:02.495 Okay, we'll see you on the next one, folks.