Kevin: Hey, Rob.
And hey everyone.
Welcome back to Subspace Radio.
Rob: Hello, Kevin.
And welcome everybody to this third episode in the exciting
new series of white, middle aged men talking about a nerdy thing.
Kevin: Yeah.
Okay, great.
That's how we'll be known forevermore, those two white nerdy
guys who do a Star Trek podcast.
Rob: They'll be able to find us online like that.
Kevin: If this is your first episode, there's not that many to catch up on.
You could go back and hear everything.
Rob: In fact, yeah.
Pause now, have a two hour break and listen back to what you've missed and
come back to us, and, and you're back!
Welcome!
How was it?
Kevin: Ugh.
I'm— Yeah, I know, right?
I know.
Rob: We've missed you.
You did a slingshot around the sun, came back and now here you are.
Kevin: We are here today to talk about the season one finale of Star Trek:
Strange New Worlds "A Quality of Mercy".
Rob: Damn right, yeah.
And it, I can't believe the season's already over.
10 episodes.
Not enough.
Kevin: For sure.
Give me another season right now.
Rob: So, The Enterprise is summoned to one of the bases on the line of the Neutral
Zone between Federation and Romulan space.
Pike is perplexed when he meets the young son of the man who runs the station.
And the name sounds familiar.
It is the name of one of the people in his future that does not survive the
accident that severely damages— yeah that's an understatement, isn't it, Kevin?
—our dear Pike.
So that sends him on a spiral.
Does he get in touch with this young man and try and change his destiny?
And at that moment, you guessed it.
A future version of Pike shows up and goes, oh, you're
gonna get into some trouble.
And then we have an awesome experience where Pike cuts ahead about seven years
and a moment from the original series, the iconic episode that has inspired
so many future incarnations of Star Trek is played out in this new form.
Yes—
Kevin: Balance of Terror!
Rob: —is played out and we what would happen if Balance of Terror was
played out through Pike's captaincy and Pike has to make some rough
decisions about what he's going to do.
Kevin: It felt like the movie to end the season to me.
Rob: Now, I received a message from young Kevin here before watching
the episode, cuz he is aware that my Original Series knowledge is not
as up to standard as it should be.
So he did send me the message saying it's probably best to watch Balance
of Terror before you watch this.
And I went,
Kevin: Yeah.
I sent that to a few people this week.
If you haven't seen it or haven't seen it lately, it's worth a watch.
Rob: Yes.
So I went in, of course, with my with my self assured entitled arrogance that,
only comes at someone my age and my skin color and my sex identification.
And about five minutes in, I went, you know what?
I should have listened to the expert.
I paused the episode, went and watched Balance of Terror and then came back
to the rest of A Quality of Mercy.
That was a good morning.
Kevin: Yeah, I got real lucky.
When we were talking last week about character deaths, the first one I
could remember, like the first time I remember being hit by someone dying
in Star Trek was young Tomlinson the phaser crew member in Balance of Terror.
And I went back and re-watched that episode to see: it was
significant to me; how significant was it to the show at the time?
And I guess for a, for an episodic sixties episode, it
was a pretty significant death.
That was the final beat of the episode is Kirk consoling his,
his now I was gonna say widowed wife to be, but they didn't even—
Rob: They did even get to yeah.
And they did take the time in the episode to, go back to
the two of them and reconnect.
So you see their dynamic as a relationship with, so it's more than
just a, yeah, a red shirt filler.
There was more to it.
Kevin: But I had watched the episode for that reason, so that when I saw
the trailer for this week's episode and I saw the Romulan weapons flying
through space, those plasma torpedoes that have a limited range, famously,
I was like, Ooh, I know what that is.
I are they bringing Romulans in?
Cuz that's gonna be problematic to the canon.
But they were all over it.
In fact, as soon as Pike was saying the speech in the chapel, I
paused it and I went, huh, they're reusing the speech in the chapel.
I guess every wedding on a Starship uses the same speech and then I un-paused it
and five seconds later, I paused it again.
I went, hang on, this *is* Balance of Terror.
Rob: And you were.
It's one of those episodes where they're not only revisiting
a classic episode, they are incorporating a modern version of it.
And especially this particular episode, like copying specific shots,
specific lines of dialogue and action.
But from this newer, skewed point of view with Pike in charge as opposed to James T.
Kirk.
Kevin: We're gonna focus in the second half on other episodes of Star Trek,
where somehow through some miracle, we revisit a previous adventure of Star Trek.
I'll leave you in suspense as to what exact episodes we're gonna talk
about, but before we go there, is there anything else about this episode
that is a highlight, a low light, something that you want to talk about?
Rob: Well, yeah, I am interested in uh, in getting your opinion, cuz
Kevin: Yeah.
I interested in getting your opinion.
Yeah, I got one or two.
I got one or two opinions about…
Rob: Yeah.
And I think it has a lot to do with those of us who are, quite familiar with the
classic series and know it back and forth.
And those like myself who have a broad view of it.
So
Kevin: I feel, I feel like I'm being subtly called a snob here.
Rob: Oh, no, not at all.
I would never, this is one of the moments where two nerds get together.
This is where I bow down to your knowledge and absorb it.
So I'm more than happy to play the little fiddle.
Kevin: My, my high level summary of my reaction to this
episode is I love the concept.
Rob: Yes.
Kevin: Nothing could make me more excited than revisiting, with a twist, one of
the most classic episodes of Star Trek, as we'll talk about it in a minute,
they've done that successfully before.
And if there is one episode worth revisiting and honoring,
this is one of them for sure.
Balance of Terror, many people's favorite episode of the original series.
And I wouldn't try to talk them out of it.
Rob: And as someone who watched it for the first time I just
went, this is… this is timeless.
It is such a well written, well-acted well-directed episode.
Kevin: Tense, tight submarine…
Rob: Submarine warfare drama.
Yeah.
Kevin: With character beats that are stronger than you usually
see in that, that early series.
It is so good.
This episode, like I was saying on paper, I am totally behind it.
I feel like something was let down in the execution.
Now, I might have just been hungry when I was watching it.
Sometimes things just don't strike you quite right.
But as I was watching this, I was going, I see what they're
doing and it's not quite landing.
It's feeling a little awkward.
Yes, they're replaying the lines in clever ways that I'm totally behind,
but the line reading is slightly different, the words feel wrong in
that actor's mouth for some reason.
They're repeating a line rather than saying something from the heart.
And I just kept having that feeling of being taken out of the episode
rather than being pulled in.
Rob: Sure, yeah.
One thing that stood out me was the character, the representation
of the hostile Federation member angry towards the Romulans.
So in the original episode, yeah, in the original episode it was Stiles.
And he has that great moment and is beautifully played by both of them.
Kevin: Never met a good Stiles.
There's never been a good Stiles in Star Trek.
Styles is also the captain of the Excelsior in Star Trek III,
when they steal the Enterprise…
Rob: That's right.
Kevin: He's the one with the riding crop.
Rob: Riding crop and the mustache.
Then he went back in time and became Doogie Howser's father.
That's right.
Kevin: Never met a good Styles.
Rob: But he mentioned that his ancestors fought in the original
Romulan war a hundred years ago.
and Kirk says that great line, "Their war.
Not yours."
It's a great moment.
And it immediately sets up where this prejudice comes from.
Whereas throughout the entire episode, Ortegas is playing that role,
but there isn't any justification of why it … to her personally.
It's said, they killed all these Federation members and
stuff, but there was no personal connection as it was for Stiles.
So that,
Kevin: The idea that just because she's been portrayed as a bit of a hot
head, is like emotionally front foot.
Does that translate to like subtle racism?
Rob: Yeah, it was a bit of a, it was a bit of a step and they didn't really,
they didn't really make those connections.
Yeah.
I appreciated those moments where they recreated the briefing room
with the uh, surprise, surprise, the arrival at last, which we all knew was
coming because they did spoil it, I think even before the series started…
Kevin: Yeah.
They said it was coming in season two, but they gave it to us one episode early
Rob: And they, yep.
They gave us a Captain Kirk played by Paul Wesley and played very well!
Kevin: That's another one where we're going to differ.
And I'll say I may warm up to him.
But I really wanted to like him.
Like I was rooting for him.
I was cheering him on, but every moment he was on screen, I was uncomfortable
that this did not feel like someone who would grow into the Captain Kirk that
we knew, or indeed at the point in the timeline where this is meant to be, he
is the same, like he's meant to be the same age as the Captain Kirk, we meet in
Balance of Terror, a season one episode, but still having watched that captain
Kirk looks more relaxed, more fun, more of the ladies man he's reputed to be.
Whereas Paul Wesley, like, I'll give him this: we've at least once heard
Kirk described as "a walking stack of books" in his early Academy days.
Like the, he was the nerd at the Academy, supposedly, Chris Pine's portrayal aside.
Rob: Oh, good, yes.
Can we please put it aside?
Kevin: I actually liked, like my first reaction to Chris Pine was
more positive than Paul Wesley.
And Paul Wesley, I've never seen him before.
I know he plays in some vampire show,
Rob: He is in The Vampire Diaries.
Kevin: It felt wooden and, and unlikable.
And if James T.
Kirk should be anything, it should be charismatic.
And…
Rob: That's true.
That's
Kevin: …just didn't get charisma from him.
Rob: Sure.
Yeah I didn't see him as that wooden.
I liked his I liked his tone.
It clearly, wasn't a, yeah, there's sort of like this middle ground between
a bit of Shatner and a bit of Pine.
Whereas I think, like I was saying, uh, in the briefing room, they showed that whole
connection that Spock and Kirk will have.
So those moments where they agree about the aggressive behavior and
that sort of like puts Christopher Pike going, oh, hang on, that's not
what— and so that was quite cool.
Also, I loved finally Sam and, James, "Jimmy" meeting and hugging
and going, ah, yes, there you go.
Doesn't look exactly like him, but you… and in that moment where
Sam gets to talk about his brother and all that type of stuff.
And, and, and the fact that Pike is worried that, James T.
Kirk might be the threat.
It's really, yeah.
I like that kind of play on things.
Kevin: Sam Kirk feels still like a torpedo in the tube for me.
Like the, his reason for being a character on the show, I haven't seen it yet.
He's been the, he's been the emotional guy in the horror episode last week, who's
freaking out that they're all gonna die.
There is a bit of, he is the loose cannon on the ship.
There's a bit of that.
That makes him an interesting character,
Rob: There was a bit of foreshadowing, like the way that he was attacking Spock
is very much how McCoy attacks Spock of going your green blooded Vulcan.
Don't you have any emotion?
You're just a, yeah.
Kevin: Yeah.
In that, he's a useful character.
Why is it Jim's Kirk's brother?
I struggle to think it is only so that he could say, oh, my brother likes
to break the rules to Pike in this episode, I suspect there is a story to
be told of why the creators— and they may not have figured it out themselves.
I think they've gifted themselves that ability to tell an interesting story
with Sam Kirk, that we haven't seen yet.
Rob: Yeah.
And like we were talking about previously, you know, I don't think
we've heard the full story, obviously, of all the characters, especially
Ortegas, being denied finding out more about her character and Sam as well.
But after our talk last week, was there another little cameo that you noticed?
As
Kevin: Oh yes.
A certain Scottish engineer.
Rob: Only voiceover!
Kevin: Only voiceover.
Yes, I believe that is one of the shots that is mirrored
from the original episode.
Spock is in the Jeffries tube and just Scotty's arm appears to hand
him a tool in the exact same way.
So, it was cheeky, but not that cheeky.
It was true to the original.
I loved it.
I'm in no rush to see Scotty.
I like that, that little taste would do me for three seasons, honestly.
Rob: But I'm just going, so was that Scotty from, was he on,
Kevin: Yeah.
He's on the Enterprise at the time of Balance of Terror.
Rob: So he is on the Enterprise cause I was thinking, had he
come over from Kirk's ship, or…
Kevin: No, No, I assume he's a crew member on the Enterprise at that point.
He does eventually get replaced by Scotty.
Rob: Eventually.
Yeah.
Well the one thing that I was trying to figure out timeline wise and doing
my homework of watching previous episodes that we'll talk about, I did
realize they've got so much time to play with we, we don't know how much
time has passed from The Cage to here, but, from a certain episode, they talk
about, the cage was 13 years ago from, the original season's first season.
So I'm there going oh, Pike swimming in gravy for at least
another seven or eight years.
Kevin: Yeah.
I think he said he's he feels, he thinks he has about a decade, something like…
Rob: Yeah,
Kevin: Other highlights from this episode: I wanted to talk about this
maroon uniform that uh, future Pike appears in, cuz I know from our chats
offline, that is your favorite uniform.
Rob: It is, and it was a little bit jooged up.
Kevin: Do you feel they did it justice?
Rob: Look, I did, I kind, I kind of also like, um, cuz it jooged up, like the arms
had a different type of texture to it…
Kevin: …been doing that again and again.
It seems like that is their stamp.
This show is putting that stamp on all of the uniforms.
Even the dress uniform that Uhura had, had the same… I wanna say rubberized
texture down the arms and shoulders.
Rob: It was definitely, raised in, in, to I don't wanna say the
word rimmed cuz that'll give.
But it was definitely for our visual pleasure.
I really um, it was great to see Anson in that outfit.
He wore it very well.
It's a great fitting uniform.
And it wasn't as much of a deviation from what we've seen before.
I mean, obviously, from the sixties to now, they've come back a bit.
And the one thing I have noticed as well, cuz the costumes they had of
uniforms, sorry they had for Discovery was completely changed for this.
Kevin: Yeah, I do miss those uh, TOS Discovery uniforms, look real sharp to me.
Rob: And there's elements of that, that you see in The Cage
Kevin: When I think of the maroon uniform, which in fan circles I have learned this
week is referred to as the Monster Maroon.
That's what it's called colloquially.
I haven't been able to figure out why, but that's what it's called.
Anyway the overriding impression I get is of a starched jacket.
Like it, it looks stiff in a formal uniform sense.
And that double breast that goes right across almost all the way
to your shoulder and then down.
And so you can undo the toggle and rip it open if you're feeling
emotional uh, like that is the feature of this uniform for me.
And it's the biggest thing that let me down in this remake is they
moved, if my eyes aren't tricking me, they moved that shoulder.
Like that, that double breast that goes almost to the shoulder, they took
it down and it's, it looks like it's gone limp so that it's almost doing
a line diagonally down their chest.
Almost the crisscross uniform that we saw earlier in the season, the
wraparound uniform that Captain Pike got.
Yeah.
It almost looks like that.
And it takes all the formality out of it for me and the nail in the
coffin for me is that the white strip that comes down for the toggle.
It's it looks like it's flopping all over the place, cuz it
needs to go way further down.
So that really bothered me.
Rob: It is the, the
Kevin: it's the alternate future.
It's never coming back.
It's okay.
Rob: And yeah.
And because they're just so caught up with this punishing war with the Romulans,
Kevin: …did read, someone suggested that the uniform designers with
taste got killed in the war.
Rob: I think they did.
Yes.
And let's have a moment's silence for those superior designers.
Kevin: okay.
Uh, what did you think of this stuff on board the Romulan ship?
Because for me the most memorable thing of that original episode is
the captain and his old friend.
And then the old friend dies when the piece of styrofoam falls on him.
Rob: And they act very well at trying to give it some weight, even though
five seconds earlier, you're gone that has clearly bounced off that old actor.
Kevin: And he sacrifices his friend by loading him into the torpedo tube and
throwing him out into space as a decoy, like none of that is present here.
The captain on the Romulan ship is all alone.
Rob: Yes.
And I mean, maybe it's also because the unfair expectation, once you have an actor
of Mark Lenard's stature and especially his stature within the Star Trek universe,
Kevin: Mark Lenard the actor who played the Romulan captain in
the original episode, also played Sarek, Spock's father, and at
least one Klingon over the years.
Rob: Yeah, there is that, that lofty, yeah, incredible performance.
So anyone who has to fill that role have a, you know,
Kevin: Oh, I felt bad for the actor.
The close up on the face, where he was delivering that iconic line "In another
reality I could have called you friend," and I just went, you're no Mark Lenard.
Rob: No, and I didn't feel it either.
I did not feel it either.
I went, ah, see what you're trying to do, but,
Kevin: Again and again, that's what I left this episode going is they set
themselves up for failure by mirroring one of the best episodes of Star Trek ever.
And they brought way more money to the table, but the gravitas just wasn't there.
Rob: It's interesting.
You know, we've been so behind it, and I'm, we're both still very much behind
this series and just how consistently strong and solid this show has been.
And even before it went to air, they'd already had season two,
pretty much all wrapped up.
So they already knew in some way, shape or form, what they had in the can, so you can
see them shooting big and they had that confidence, or, dare I say, arrogance to
go, you know what, no we're gonna do it.
We're gonna take on Balance of Terror.
And we are going to do our copy version of it.
But it seems once they get to it going, oh, we need to get an
actor who can match up to it.
Oh, well.
And no discredit to the actor who did fill the role of the leader of that ship.
But like you said, he just, he wasn't able to shine like Lenard was.
And in the original that's what made it so beautiful is his right
hand man was supportive and going, I've been with you on all these
adventures and they talk about the hierarchy within the Romulan system.
The two of them talk together about that, really clever little detailed
stuff for the first appearance of the Romulans is incredible.
Kevin: Yeah, overall I'm a bit disappointed, but you know what?
I'm still with them and I congratulate them on the attempt.
Rob: So we've explored the most recent episode of Strange New
Worlds, and that got us inspired to go through a bit of, a a worm hole
to find some similar type episodes.
And we're mixing things up a bit this week.
We've agreed on three episodes that sort of like revisit a classic
story and do a new version of it.
So we've agreed on three and let's talk through those, shall we?
Yeah.
Kevin: I almost missed this first one.
But it came to me in a flashback, if you will.
The Menagerie, which is the Star Trek episode, partway through season one,
it's about halfway through season one where, and I'm gonna steal something
from podcaster, Jason Snell here.
So a hat tip of the hat, here.
This is the episode of Star Trek, where the crew of the Enterprise sits down and
watches an episode of Star Trek together.
Rob: Yeah.
Yeah, it is the ultimate in and it's, I think it's the
first instance of ah, meta in—
Kevin: Yes.
So, famously, the original pilot of Star Trek, The Cage was never aired and they
had it just sitting there on the shelf.
And so as they were working their way through season one,
they thought, you know what?
We can use that.
And in this episode, we get to see the story of Christopher Pike, who gets
broken out of Starfleet jail by Spock, so that Spock can take him back to Talos
IV, the banned, restricted planet where the Talosians can make your dreams come…
Rob: Mm.
And if you do visit there, threatened of death!
Kevin: Yeah, And so Christopher Pike gets his happily ever after.
And Spock gets a course martial, wherein transmissions from the planet
replay the events of The Cage for the assembled court, so that they can decide
whether Spock's actions were justified.
Rob: And in classic Star Trek, fan fashion of Star Trek characters watching
a Star Trek episode, they complain about the quality of the picture they call,
they're going, oh, is this good sounds?
Or the effects are pretty, you know, outdated and, oh, it's just, the
reflective nature of it is hilarious.
Kevin: On the surface, this one on paper would underwhelm me, but every
time I watch it, I am reminded it's one of my favorite episodes of the series,
because it does some world building, I think, that we don't usually get.
They go from a star base to a ship and to a courtroom, the whole
procedural of the court case.
But also Spock's caper of breaking Pike out of his uh, I said prison at the start.
It's a prison of the mind, isn't it?
Rob: …is, yes, he's being cared for rather intensely by, by Starfleet
officers in very short skirts.
Oh, the hell of it all.
Kevin: But this idea that Spock is more loyal to this character that we've never
seen before than to his crew mates on the Enterprise is a delectable mystery.
Rob: And it's really interesting, cuz this is the first time I've actually seen it.
I'd watched The Cage when they first released it on VHS, Kevin.
And I was always fascinated by it.
The sort of what could have been.
And so I'm always a sucker for the underdog franchises, so my favorite
era of the Disney franchise is the dark ages, like the seventies and the early
eighties, when Ron Miller's in charge and they do stuff like Something Wicked
This Way Comes or The Black Hole or Watcher In the Woods, all these failed
movies, but it's so dark and watching the original Cage I went, oh, what could
have been with Pike and Number One.
And so that's why I think I'm into Strange New Worlds so much is that I'm
finally getting to see these characters that I saw when I was in high school.
I went, oh, if only, now it's…
Kevin: Yes.
So it's interesting that this episode that shares so much in common with this
prominent episode of Strange New Worlds is also deeply linked to the series itself.
It's where those characters originate.
It's where they appeared on TV for the first time.
And it's also the payoff for the final moments of A Quality of Mercy, where Spock
almost with, so few words understands what Pike has been through and the debt
of gratitude that, that he owes to Pike.
Rob: It's incredible work from Ethan Peck, who just— I'm, I'm gonna say this.
Leonard Nimoy is a giant and an incredible presence in Star Trek.
And I never really got into Zachary Quinto.
I never really got Quinto's performance.
Everyone went oh, but he looks so much like him, but then when
he, the performance was there going, but he isn't Spock.
He never felt Spock for me.
But as soon as Ethan Peck came along, even in Discovery, and especially now
in the series, I've gone, this is Spock.
This is a perfect tribute and a good companion to Nimoy's iconic version.
And that moment, he's a wonderful actor and that moment of nuance
and going, that's the type of stuff Nimoy did so well.
That, that show of emotion through subtlety, as opposed
to, oh, I think Spock's angry.
Oh.
I think Zachary Quinto's having a bit of a hissy fit.
But that moment was a beautiful moment and it does connect directly to
Menagerie of why Spock is willing to do… risk everything, risk death, risk
his career and his life for this man.
And this is the thing there's so much weight in Strange New Worlds
about about Pike and sharing it with Spock and Una, about this is my life.
This is what happens to me.
But they don't know.
Kevin: They don't know that he gets a happily ever after at the end!
Rob: And you get to hang out with Melissa George.
Kevin: Vena, yeah!
Rob: Aussie's own Melissa George was Vena in the Discovery episode
when he had the visions in The Cage.
Yeah, so it was interesting to finally watch, cause I'd seen The Cage,
but I hadn't seen The Menagerie.
So to see what, how they structure showing The Cage within it, especially
that final shot of when she goes, I'm returned to my beautiful form and
Kevin: They replay the moment as a completely different scene.
Rob: And he goes "…and more," and she just smiles.
He goes, yeah, she could smile before.
And because they didn't wanna show from the original, when she grabs onto the
imaginary Christopher Pike, they wanted to use that as the real imaginary.
Oh!
Kevin: Right!
It's so clever.
Rob: And the look on Shatner's face at the end.
He looks, it's a beautiful moment and I don't care what people say about,
oh, the hokey acting in the sixties.
There's some beautiful stuff in there and it doesn't care what era it is.
He, the look on his face when he's just looking at a blank screen of him finally
seeing this character, this person, Christopher Pike, get the happy ending he
deserves and this nice knowing smile is is a beautiful bit of acting from Shat.
Kevin: We've talked about two, three, if you count Menagerie as two parts, we've
talked about three great episodes of Star Trek in the first season of that series.
It's amazing what…
Rob: I've been going back and watching a lot more, thanks to this podcast,
and thanks to your encouragement.
And season one, man, is like so much killer, not much filler.
And like in an episode, like there's The Menagerie, then there's another episode.
And then you're in Balance of Terror.
It's just wall to wall classic stuff.
So it's not so much of an incorporation that episode.
It's more of a, yeah, just sit back and watch.
Kevin: Yeah.
Well, then let's do a true incorporation with Trials and Tribble-ations.
Rob: I have been bringing this up a lot, and so I, I like, I liken your thought.
Let's go.
Let's just get it outta the way, okay Rob?
You've been talking about it every week.
Let's talk about it in full, then get it outta your system.
And we, there is so much more for…
Kevin: …us the excuse.
Trials and Tribble-ations, I hadn't seen it in a while.
I re-watched it before this, so I'm all freshened up.
It is the episode where they revisit The Trouble with Tribbles the classic comedy
from, maybe the only comedy from the Original Series where deep space station
K-7 suffers an infestation of tribbles, which apart from nearly overtaking that
Starbase, are responsible for unmasking a hidden Klingon agent in their midsts.
Rob: That's right.
And for the 30th anniversary of Star Trek, Deep Space Nine decided to do
a tribute where they go back in time.
That's right.
Sisko and Dax and Odo and Worf and Bashir and O'Brien all travel back in
time to find a time traveling bandit who threatens to blow up the space station.
And it's the same actor they get for Deep Space Nine,
Kevin: Arne Darvin is the character.
Rob: That's easy for you to say!
I mean, it was cutting edge at the time and
Kevin: It was amazing!
They must have spent a entire season's worth of their visual
effects budget on this one episode.
Rob: And it shows the proof is in the pudding.
I mean, We will never get fully restored Deep Space Nine, or, enhancement of
the CGI effects, which fans are crying out for, but it's just not gonna
happen, but this one still holds up.
Whether you watch it streamer or on the DVD.
Kevin: I think this episode might be one of the reasons we never get an
HD DS9 because to do, to redo this in HD would be next to impossible.
Rob: Yeah.
It's an incredible episode.
It's incredible feat in special effects, and it is that really—
Well, I think you mentioned it's like the Back to the Future II.
Kevin: Yes, that's right.
For those who haven't seen it, our crew of, uh, Deep Space Nine
on the Defiant, which can cloak, conveniently for this episode.
Rob: That's right.
Kevin: They, they share scenes with the original cast of TOS.
So they replay scenes of the original Trouble with Tribbles with
Deep Space Nine characters in the background, in the foreground, even
interacting with characters from the original episode in the most
clever split screens you have ever…
Rob: So beautiful.
You get to see Kirk getting angry at O'Brien and Bashir, who got
into a ballroom brawl with Scotty.
Love it.
Kevin: Yeah, there's a lot to talk about here.
I wanna start with the way they get into the past, which is to use the Orb of Time.
So the Prophets of the wormhole famously have these orbs that they
gift to the Bajoran people and each one has a different magical power.
This one lets you do time stuff,
Rob: And if you get it all in a gauntlet, you can control.
Oh, no, that's a…
Kevin: That's a different franchise.
But compare that to the Klingon time crystals that were used in
Strange New Worlds this week.
As soon as that came out I groaned.
I was like, ah, are we seriously going back to the Klingon time monks?
I was hoping we could, we could set that aside and pretend it never happened.
Rob: …Kevin!
In time!
Kevin: They are angry, Klingon monks in time.
Rob: If you just touch the crystal, it'll send you forward.
Kevin: So yeah, that's the thing, this whole idea that it, it will send you
forward, not into a vision of your future, but into an interactive simulation of
your future in which you can tell Spock.
I am here from the past, and Spock will give you a mind meld to confirm this.
Like, it's that interactive.
Rob: Lot of levels, lot of levels.
Kevin: At the end in the very last scene, somehow old Pike has traveled
with him into this vision because Pike is in his future ready room.
I don't get it at all.
Whereas at least the Orb of Time, they get it outta the way quickly.
They're like, it's an orb of time.
It does time.
Oh, look, we're in the past.
That's all you need to know.
Like, that's it.
They don't even bother with the return to the future at the end.
It's just like we, we did it.
Rob: Yeah there.
Okay.
We've got the agents from the time disruption…
Kevin: I guess I wanna say if you're gonna break the rules, do it quickly
and don't draw too much attention to it.
No loving shots of a green crystal in a case.
And you're like, who made that case?
Uh, like,
Rob: Wonder what happens to their seven year future plan.
Kevin: Yeah, it… I think they gilded the lilly a bit too
much in Strange New Worlds.
And in DS9, they knew how to get it outta the way quickly
and not make it a distraction.
Rob: And it's fun.
You get to see the cast in your original uniforms.
Kevin: They cosplay!
For the 30th anniversary, the cast of DS9 cosplays as TOS characters.
Rob: And Sisko has to get a voucher, a token, go up to his star and
get an autograph like we all do…
Kevin: Right at the end, yeah.
Exactly.
This, to me, I wrote this down, cuz up until this point, I felt
like— and this is fifth season DS9.
So we were deep into it by this point.
But at least me as a casual viewer at that time, I— not
that casual; let's be serious.
As a viewer…
Rob: Nice try though.
Nice try.
I like how you tried to cover that.
You went, "Look, as a casual viewer."
Oh really?
You want me to believe that?
Nice try.
Kevin: As a viewer at the time, I still felt like DS9 was too cool to be fully
connected to the rest of Star Trek canon.
I felt like they were doing their own thing, and they were almost
holding themselves at arm's length to the rest of Star Trek history.
Rob: Mm-hmm.
Kevin: And in this episode, these characters that I thought were too
cool for school are dressing up and geeking out about Spock and Kirk and…
Rob: …and, and talking about why the Klingons look human and
they just do the beautiful line.
"It's a part of our history we don't talk about."
Okay.
All right.
My, my favorite moment is right at that.
One of my, the whole episode is one of my favorites, but at the start, just to
set that tone, when they mention James T.
Kirk and the two guys from the bureau do classic Star Trek
references to time travel.
"Oh, that guy.
He's broken so many time travel laws."
And then you just have Sisko when they say James T.
Kirk and he lights up and you see him, like when he talks about
baseball, he goes "The very same."
Kevin: And he gets 'em by the end, he gets one of the agents to go, "You know what?
I probably would've done the same thing."
Rob: And it's great.
Like, you've got O'Brien with his daggy sixties haircut.
That's awesome.
You've got Jadzia…
Kevin: …O'Brien.
Bashir's got the most amazing slick…
Rob: He's got, he looks, he, it looks very sixties, about 150 years beforehand.
Um, and Jadzia, having a bit of googly eyes at McCoy.
McCoy getting some love.
Kevin: She googly-eyes Spock and then reveals she has she's
had a, an affair with McCoy.
Rob: That's right.
That's right.
Kevin: Yeah.
Not afraid to get around, our Dax.
She's had many years to do it, so good on her.
Rob: …old man is a player.
I love it.
And Terry Farrell looks great.
They all look fantastic.
The boys' haircut could be a bit better, but Terry Farrell's sixties
hairdo, the updo is amazing.
Kevin: My favorite scene in this episode is in the turbo lift.
They bump into the uh, attractive crewperson in the
lift for the second time.
And she's like, "I'll be in uh, sick bay later for my physical," and she leaves
and Bashir's like, "You don't know!
I might be destined to meet her, fall in love with her and have
children, and I might be my own grandfather, for all you know."
And O'Brien's like, "Oh boy, are we ready to beam out."
Rob: That guy is so desperate to get laid.
Look just, let's just go to the holosuite, okay?
We'll pretend to do a World War II bombing raid… But yeah, it's
just beautifully structured.
It's more than just a comedy episode.
It's there.
Like you said, it's that moment, especially in season five, we're getting
into the heart of Dominion War stuff.
We're going into some dark territory and for them to just go, let's get this really
cooler-than-thou crew to just let loose.
And the whole cast, cuz they're just incredible, really lets slip.
And that final moment where you have Sisko and Kirk together,
and they make you wait for it.
They go, you wanna see the two of them together?
It's not gonna happen.
Of course is gonna happen.
Kevin: Also for the 30th anniversary of Star Trek, Star Trek Voyager was on
the air at the time and they did their own homage to the past of Star Trek.
This episode, Flashback season three, episode two of Voyager actually aired
before Trials and Tribble-ations.
So we're doing these out of order.
Um, but, to me, another one of those ones that on paper, it's a loving homage.
In practice, it doesn't quite work for me.
Rob: Yeah.
Look it's just, when you bring back an iconic character like Sulu and
especially when it's his time on Excelsior, you want that to be where
the meat and potatoes of the episode is, but this one does like veer more
into, Tuvok and Janeway's relationship.
And they could do that in any way, shape or form, like with
Trials and Tribble-ations, they go, let's go there and let's lean
into it and let's just embrace it.
Kevin: They get there quick and they spend a lot of time there in Deep Space Nine.
In Voyager, I was looking at the progress bar and it's not until halfway
through the episode that they land in what is the iconic opening scene of
Star Trek IV: The Undiscovered Country.
And I'm gonna say it, also my favorite opening of a Star Trek movie of perhaps
my favorite Star Trek movie of all time.
Rob: And look, it's— Oh, wow!
Wow.
That is a big call.
You just slipped that under the radar, Kevin Yank.
Just went.
Oh yeah, by the way one of my favourite…
You always want to know when you've got a captain on a Federation
vessel, how they do certain things.
So of course Kirk had, many opportunities to do a variation of "Fire."
And in Star Trek VI, he does the dramatic one where his hand comes up
and he grips it and goes, "Fi-yah!"
But for Sulu, he gets his moment when he sees the waves of Praxis coming
towards him, and he calls out "Sheilds!"
Ah, and I was just going there you are.
why he gets the captain's role.
Kevin: It's so great.
He's such a great captain.
I remember around this time, there was lots of speculation off the
back of the movie of would we get the Captain Sulu TV series?
Rob: Such a missed opportunity.
Kevin: But we get a taste of what it would be here because we get to, like,
peek behind the scenes of those very few moments on the Excelsior in the movie.
We get to see a bit more of a day in the life on the Excelsior.
We get to see Commander Janice Rand doing her thing, being like
a competent officer on a Starship.
It's amazing.
And the other guy, Dimitri Valtane was, to me, a very memorable
presence in that opening scene on the Excelsior in the movie.
Like, his reports back to the captain are so efficient and logical.
He's sitting at that point on the bridge where the famous Vulcan usually sits.
Rob: Yes.
Kevin: But we get to see a human with a beard in that role.
And I just remember at the time going, yeah, well done, sir.
You're filling those shoes nicely.
Rob: Exactly.
And is it cuz it has been a while since I've seen it because Tim
Ross does appear, but I'm not.
it in Star Trek IV or is it in,
Kevin: I don't think we see him in Star Trek IV.
He's very conveniently put over in a corner of the bridge that
it would be natural not to go to.
He's he's a cadet.
Yeah?
Oh yes, yes.
He's plays another character in Generations.
Rob: That's right.
He plays a human in…
Kevin: Yeah.
But in this, at this point in Tuvok's career as a cadet, it's his first
deep space mission on the Excelsior.
He's naive.
He's the one who's quoting regulations to his captain and getting a little
smacked down by the first officer for it.
And all that stuff is delightful.
Rob: But where is that, that shadowy cadet who has to wake up Sulu?
Kevin: Ah, Christian Slater.
Rob: Yeah!
Where is… why did… where did he…?
Kevin: Why they couldn't get him?
Rob: Why couldn't they get Christian Slater back to do…?
But in every shot, he'd always be in shadow?
Even if he's in, like on the deck and it's bright light, he's just,
got his own shadow that just follows him around everywhere?
Kevin: So like this week's episode of Strange New Worlds, I think the
difficulty level was extraordinarily high for what they set out to do, here.
And not downplaying what Deep Space Nine did by seamlessly editing themselves
into an episode of television from the sixties, but here again was a
case where this feature film had come out just five years before.
It had a feature film budget, feature film production values, and here was
Star Trek: Voyager episode of the week in four by three, trying to insert
itself and replay the same events.
And to me, things just… again, the gravitas wasn't there.
That opening scene of the wave hitting the ship, it is entirely scored in Voyager
with generic Voyager dramatic music.
And I went back and watched the movie that entire scene has no score.
It has played out to silence, and it feels real.
Rob: Yeah, the music of the opening credits is so good.
And it's that ominous build up to it.
And then,
Kevin: It drops out, and Praxis explodes.
Rob: And that's it.
You have no music, you just have the sound of everything.
It plays for real.
It's, yeah.
It's a fantastic opening.
Kevin: But what I did like— I like that Tuvok tells Janeway, "Praxis has
just exploded," and we all as fans know exactly what that means, but we get to
look around this bridge, seeing them going about their business, unaware
of what, what is about to hit them.
And that is a delicious bit of dramatic irony that we get to play through.
Then the, the moments of the upset of the ship as the wave hits them goes through.
And a lot of lines are replayed, but to me, the line readings aren't quite there.
I know those, I feel that opening of Star Trek IV deep in my soul.
And when captain Salus says, "Turn her into the wave!"
in the movie, it feels heroic.
And in this, he goes, "Turn her *into* the wave," and I'm like,
oh, you didn't quite nail it.
Rob: Yeah.
Kevin: I think you were in a bit of a hurry, there.
Rob: Yeah.
It's a difference between having Nicolas Myer directing you or not.
Kevin: Yeah.
And ultimately, the episode, it does not fully honor the source
material because they kind of bail out of the story halfway through.
They get to that critical moment for the plot where Valtane dies on the bridge,
and they discover that is the moment Tuvok got infected by this parasite
that's causing him a false memory.
They extract themselves from the mind meld, they're in the Voyager
sick bay and they resolve the issue.
And the rest of Star Trek IV happens in a couple of lines of dialogue
where Tuvok says, "Oh, so we had, a significant role in the Khitomer
accords that happened after that."
and Janeway says, "Oh, aren't you nostalgic about that time?"
And Tuvok says, "Vulcans don't feel nostalgia."
The end.
And it's a bit of a "Wah-wahh."
Rob: It is, yeah.
And like I said, if you're bringing these people back, give them the
focus they deserve, you know?
On the Original Series, they're doing it for the first time, they dedicate
two episodes and the entire regular cast sit and watches the unaired pilot.
In Trials and Tribble-ations, you have a perfect balance of what the
Deep Space Nine characters are doing, plus you give that revered focus from
a different perspective, as opposed to just cutting away from them.
You actually see the same shots, but from the lower decks, almost, level.
But yeah, with this, it really smacks of we'll do a little bit of
nostalgia; our main focus is our cast and our show, and it's a disservice.
It doesn't take anything away from your Voyager cast if you give that
full attention to really capturing and having a bit of a nod to this missed
opportunity in, ah, Star Trek lore with the Excelsior crew led by Sulu.
Kevin: Yeah, they have flown close to that particular sun once or twice, though.
There is some peril.
I'm reminded of the Enterprise series finale, These Are the Voyages, where
effectively the the cast of the show that is ending play second fiddle to Commander
Riker and Counselor Troi who are just watching it as a holodeck simulation.
Rob: That's right.
Kevin: And so, I think I see the opposite side of that coin, that if Voyager had
played this as a retread like a true revisit of Undiscovered Country, the
risk there is that it doesn't feel like a Star Trek: Voyager episode.
So there is a perfect balance.
And I think we can agree Deep Space Nine struck it.
Rob: Got it perfectly.
Yeah, and I think we did a good exploration of revisiting an episode
and the success and the failures.
So I think us revisiting those moments is uh, up there with
Trials and Tribble-ations,
Kevin: Oh write in if you agree or disagree with Rob's take.
Rob: That bold statement is demanding some retribution.
Kevin: If you do want to write into us, we have a Twitter account, now.
You can reach us at @subspacedotfm, that's D-O-T-F-M at the end, and
uh, yeah, send us your thoughts.
We'd love to hear them.
Rob: We also have a website, don't we, Kevin?
Kevin: We do have a website.
And you may have visited it on your way here, but if you found us some other way,
you can visit subspace.fm to find all our old episodes, of which there are now two.
If you missed episode zero, I could understand, it's a little sneaky of us.
We did an episode zero.
But it's a full episode, go back and watch it if you want more of us.
yeah.
What's happening next, Rob?
can't believe we actually have not discussed this.
Rob: I know, we haven't actually talked about what we are gonna do…
Kevin: We're going into uncharted space, here.
There is a gap of Star Trek episodes in which we could choose to do
something or we can hold fire.
What they have told us is that a third season of Lower Decks is coming soon
and we can reconvene for episode one of Star Trek: Lower Decks, season three.
Rob: Do we hold off until Lower Decks or do we do one before then?
So like a bit of a free for all about whatever topic we
want to bring to the table.
And I dunno what to do.
I've spoken about Trials and Tribble-ations for the last time I'm out!
Kevin: I… If I had to make a call here and now, I would say let's
wait for Lower Decks, season three.
Rob: All right.
That's good.
Yeah, let's.
Yeah.
Let's leave 'em wanting more.
Kevin: Okay.
Dear listener we've talked about it and, if not before, you will be
hearing from us with the premiere of Star Trek: Lower Decks season three.
I hope it's not too far off.
My, my gut feel is it's in the next month or so we will see that.
So we'll see you then.
We may surprise you with something else, so stay subscribed to the feed.
But otherwise, see you with the return of Boimler and crew.
Rob: Hit it.