Tori (00:00)
It's like, okay, fine, you don't have to apologize because it's going to be empty. But did you have to start singing the song again into Bronwyn's face? that's that extra step where it's like, now you know that her feelings are hurt and you are gonna sing the song again. That's the part where I'm sure everyone at brunch is like, come on now.

Ian (00:21)
now that she has the information, not only the information at the party, but the information that was given to her after, before they're on court, on the plane, in the cockpit, right? At the brunt.

Tori (00:30)
Yep. Yep. Yep. She has not stopped

singing. Yeah. Yeah.

Alrighty, hello overthinkers. This is Tori and Ian and we are Overthinking Reality. Today we are talking about Real Housewives of Salt Lake City season seven, episode six. Hello, Ian.

Ian (02:00)
Hey Tori,

Tori (02:01)
We are finally back in Salt Lake. They had a three episode stint in San Francisco. The ladies gave us a lot. And before I even recap, Ian and I mentioned before we started recording that this was a pretty tame, pretty mild episode, depending on what your gauge for reality TV and Housewives is.

Ian, you're getting introduced to it. So you can notice, right? this wasn't the most crazy episode to have happened yet.

Ian (02:31)
No, and I again I've the producers have been my favorite characters thus far, and I'm noticing this pattern that outside of San Francisco, we have this like it's very much like a movie, right? We have the development in the build, and then we have this separation where people are talking about other people, and then we like the crescendo in the climax where they're all together and talking about it, then we have the come down. And so I feel like this is

Tori (02:53)
Mm-hmm.

Ian (02:54)
the build-up. And then in the coming episodes, we came from the climax of the the party with.

And so it'll be interesting to see, but it

Tori (03:01)
Yes.

Ian (03:01)
I don't know if this is I would assume there's some pattern to this, but this was, I think, sort of the build episode for me.

Tori (03:07)
It's almost like the producers are giving us a little bit of a breath after San Francisco. Yeah.

Ian (03:11)
That's right. I and boy did I need it.

Tori (03:14)
Because also we do know next week Heather's throwing a party and that as you're describing, that will probably ramp up. Anytime there's a party or an event, something's gonna happen.

Ian (03:27)
aren't the husbands going too or the husbands are partners or yeah, so well that's so they're like

Tori (03:29)
Yes, yes. Yep. Yeah. It it'll

be a lot of a lot of dynamics going on. so for this mild episode, we're back in Salt Lake. It starts with Angie catching Mary up on what happened in San Francisco. We can talk a little bit more about that later, just Angie and Mary's dynamic, but there's some pretty funny scenes with like Angie is going above and beyond to make sure that Mary is comfortable.

Maybe even to a fault, because Mary was like, get to the point. But we'll come back to that. in this episode, we get a little glimpse into Brittany and her daughter's dynamic, which you have not seen from previous seasons, but they they kind of talk about it. Brittany and her daughter have been estranged for a majority of her daughter's life. They've only actually since

Brittany started filming, have they reconciled? So like not even before she started filming. And that is largely due to a pattern from Britney of choosing men over her daughter and children. and like prioritizing those relationships in her life again to an extreme, extreme fault.

but in this episode, Britney's daughter is having her twenty first birthday and she's including her mom, which is a big deal. And the women come and they're supportive and they chit chat about the trip and all of that kind of stuff.

The majority of this episode happens at Mary's first like social outing since since they've gotten back from San Francisco and really since the season started. And she calls it her boss brunch. She tells everyone to like dress like a lady boss, like come everyone's wearing,

They've all got shoulder pads, blazers of that sort. And Mary kind of like puts them all in their place. Cause she wants to hear where everyone is coming from, what are the issues, but then she kind of like reads them and is like, you guys need to deal with with your stuff better than you are. Because from Mary's perspective, last time she saw all of these women was them all saying, We're gonna be sisters, we're gonna get along. Like it was very kumbaya moment for Mary.

They went to San Francisco without Mary. Everything broke loose. And Mary's like, What is wrong with you guys? so within the brunch, though, what does happen is Bronwyn gives her feelings on the hypocrisy and bullshit song. She's still upset about that. because she's questioning like why they did it.

Meredith ends up giving an apology. Again, we will talk about this more, but just as a recap, Meredith gives an apology, Lisa does not, because she says it would be fake. We also get a little bit into Whitney versus Kwai, but also Meredith versus Whitney versus Kwai, because they show that Kwai has made up with Meredith and now it's putting Whitney on the out. So like that dynamic is ever changing as Kwai finds her spot in the group.

Mary is disappointed in all of them. And then Whitney and Kwai get together one-on-one in this episode to try and talk things through versus with all of the women. And then we end at a dinner with Mary, Heather, Angie, and Lisa. And I think that that's a very interesting dynamic that we will get into a little bit later. But they all go out to dinner. It's a smaller group within the group.

And yeah, as always they're all talking, talking smack, talking about each other, questioning nursing home motives and stealing flowers and all of it. So we'll touch on all of that, but that's the general recap. Did I miss anything, Ian?

Ian (07:14)
I do not believe so. I think that was a great recap. No, I

Tori (07:17)
Yeah.

Ian (07:18)
I don't think you missed anything. I think overall from a explosiveness episode, this was definitely like again the setup or like we're trying to catch our breath, get maybe some more information, clear some things up. it was it's interesting as I'm thinking about it

we've given presentations and stuff before, particularly to schools, and one of the things that we talk about a lot is this idea of how do I respond to things versus react to them. And I feel like this is the response episode where like responses

Tori (07:48)
Yes.

Ian (07:48)
are chosen, right? We we have an initial so a reaction is something that is sort of just comes out or it's like innate or it's our first instinct, we just react. And I feel like that was all of the San Francisco trip. It's just reaction, reaction, reaction, reaction. And now Mary's

Tori (08:02)
Yeah.

Ian (08:02)
like, wait a minute, all of these reactions.

reactions. Let's have some like actually thoughtful responses to what we're doing. I can feel myself like exhale like okay this is like where they're actually like talking through some things here because yeah it just the the overall you know sort of scope of what this reality TV show is so is super fascinating to me.

Tori (08:23)
Yeah, Mary's trying to have them all take a take a breath. Because even as they're starting to fight at Mary's brunch, she's like, knock it out. Like this I I've had enough of this. She said that she's disappointed in them, this is she's just like, I'm not having any of this. Mary has higher expectations for the women.

Ian (08:42)
What's the old parent like, I'm not mad, I'm just disappointed. It's like the worst thing to hear when you're younger. It's like, don't get mad.

Tori (08:44)
I'm not mad, I'm just disappointed. Yes. Yes. And and

honestly, if you want to t I mean, talking about response, but like they all respond to like

Ian (08:56)
Hm.

Tori (08:56)
they are all if you if you are thinking about it like a parent versus child kind of thing, they're taking Mary's words to heart, you know, like and it's interesting for Mary, they're not defensive at all. Like how dare you say like Mary literally says to Whitney at one point, like you need to get

Your act together. You need to get on your knees and pray to God and get your life right. And Whitney's just like, yep, she's taking it. no defensiveness when when Mary kind of like reads them. Because I think she's like probably hitting

she is getting to the point. She is she's ma sh and she's making a good point with all these women. So and I I don't think that even has to do with where Mary's coming from. Mary's just very good at verbalizing and reading the room and like I mean, maybe that's part of her pastoral spirit, but the women respond positively to Mary.

Ian (09:50)
And yeah, well I I think she also talked about it too from her history of not having a lot of familial support if I'm remembering correctly and,

Tori (09:56)
Yeah.

Ian (09:57)
you know, really relying on them and you know, the the reading the room is looking at the relationship from sort of a place of like loss of what would it be? You know, obviously

Tori (10:07)
Mm-hmm.

Ian (10:08)
I'm I'm speculating at that, but like what would it be if I were to lose this having not had it before? and so there's maybe a little bit more scarcity or worry that this could go away.

You bring up a really good point too, because I think it's fascinating to me that they in those moments you can see where they would argue with somebody else, per Whitney or somebody in those moments will argue with somebody else, or but when they they it seem to really listen, not just hear Mary, they like listen. However,

Tori (10:32)
Mm-hmm.

Ian (10:33)
I will say it is amazing to me how much they

will listen to somebody or they'll have this moment where they're having a conversation, they there's this connection or this epiphany.

And then all it takes is somebody saying the wrong thing, and bam, here comes the pointed shot

Tori (10:53)
Wait what?

Ian (10:54)
about the lawsuits that Braun is not So that's the thing that's so fascinating to me is like, yes, they're they're listening to Mary, and in that moment they look like they're genuinely like, Okay, I'm not gonna come at you, I'm not gonna do anything. But then we go to these other dinners and there's little side comments, there's what I would call reckless speculation about like to to say this.

Somebody is going to nursing homes to get in Wills. It's just

Tori (11:17)
Like maybe

the next day. Well, you know, that's interesting that you say that, Ian. we didn't necessarily plan to talk about this for this episode, but when you describe that, what I'm hearing is you really describing like our brain's neuroplasticity into like what is familiar and what's normal. And it takes a lot for us to change like how our brain does respond versus react. And what these women are very used to, what their brains are used to is

is being dirty, basically, instead of being thoughtful and reflective. And I don't know, maybe should we talk about that for a second, or is that

Ian (11:52)
Well w yeah, because

no, I th I've been having this, when we originally tossed around ideas for

For a podcast, one of the ideas that I had had was talking about sports and stuff. And the

Tori (12:03)
Mm-hmm.

Ian (12:03)
like it's not obviously this is not a sport, but I am shocked at the business aspect of this. Like, really, I

Tori (12:09)
Mm-hmm.

Ian (12:09)
am because like we can get into this with Lisa, because I think the the business sort of model of this or the TV show and the entertainment relies on them not being plastic or having that neuroplasticity in certain ways. We've talked about this, right? If this were something where they they were not making these.

comments or saying some of these things we wouldn't watch it. It wouldn't know, it wouldn't be interesting. And so that to me

Tori (12:30)
It wouldn't be a good show. Right. There can only be so much room for growth.

Ian (12:35)
right.

Because I I also get the sense that like you have this juxtaposition of this is a business, this is something we're making money off of, this is entertainment. And yet you're also balancing that with friendships, right? Like there's clearly raw emotional connections in both like positive and and negative ways are being hurt. And so it's really interesting to watch these two things butt up against each other. And I was I was very surprised by that sort of business element it in the sense.

Sense

that, for me, and I'll fully own this, this was just a an assumption with no base or merit, that it was this was sort of like acting and just, doing things for for the camera. But I don't get that impression. I think my view

Tori (13:17)
Mm.

Ian (13:18)
is shifting more towards, yes, this is this is a business. This means like if I am on or if somebody's trying to push me off, or if I'm a friend of and trying to get on the show, this is a real

business, but these relationships are not purely fabricated for TV, clearly. And again, that's my own assumption that was clearly wrong.

Tori (13:34)
Yeah.

Ian (13:36)
but yeah, I think that speaks to what you're talking about with this plasticity is how much change can we encourage in a way that helps promote the business.

Tori (13:43)
Yeah. Well and that's interesting because depending on the franchise, depending on the cast, depending on how long a cast is together, some of those relationships do really change. Like you know, Mary's always had a very unique place on this cast.

But she has not gone along with Whitney in the past, or she has not gone along with Heather in the past and said things like that they have argued about, but yet now they're in a place where they are really listening and hearing what she has to say. But it depends on yeah, how long they are together because they you know, some casts can have a an arc where they heal and go from enemies to friends or whatever. But it depends on

Yeah, sometimes it can depend on if that's good TV or not. So it's like how much do you want to change the behavior if it if it's good? And maybe that's a good segue into something like at Mary's brunch, the difference of Meredith offering a an apology and Lisa not offering an apology. And before we even you know, yeah, some of it is for good TV and

It I don't know. You I know you have a lot of thoughts on on Lisa's handling of it. so within this brunch, Bronwyn talks about how irritated she was at the song. Meredith, we talked last week about it felt like very gaslighty. because she's like, sorry if you feel that way. But in this episode, she really does offer an apology. Like, I am sorry if the song hurt your feelings.

Ian (15:22)
Something about my actions, yeah. If my actions hurt you or something yeah. Yep. Yeah.

Tori (15:23)
Yes, if my actions by singing the song hurt your feelings.

Bronwyn takes it, she like accepts it. And then Lisa's like, I am not going to apologize because that would be fake. She's like, I'm not sorry. And yeah, so in terms of changing behavior, good TV, bad TV, whatever it is, what were your thoughts? Because I know you said you wanted to talk about this.

Ian (15:45)
Yeah, there's a couple of things. So I wrote I this is a paraphrase quote, but Lisa says something about something about like empty apologies being expensive and this apology is past Birken level. And I I thought that was really funny.

Tori (16:00)
Yes.

Ian (16:02)
you know, I think this is

Lisa is a fascinating. She's almost like a character. She's almost like a vigilante, right? Where it's like

she's sort of giving off this this set of like beliefs or values. It's really interesting because as much as she does, that you can look at that and be like, wow, those are terrible things.

From what I've seen online and even like listening to her, there is some stuff that she says, it's like, okay, well I can't really hate her for that or argue with that, right? So this idea that she's not going to give an apology just to give an apology, I mean I respect that. Like I don't necessarily think that you should just appease or fawn, right? Or just appease people for the sake of the group. Because I think that's one of these dynamics that keeps coming back, right? This is like a cycle where

If she

Tori (16:50)
Yeah.

Ian (16:51)
apologizes disingenuously, then when we don't feel like we can say no to other people, we can become passive aggressive. And so then maybe this comes up at a later time. And I think that's what was pretty interesting about Bronwyn's discussion with Meredith is that I got the sense that those were like that was his

genuine of like a compromise in terms of would Bronwyn have liked more of an apology? Yes. Would Meredith like to have apologized a little bit less? Maybe. I don't know that. But

Tori (17:20)
Right.

Ian (17:21)
you could see but what's this saying? a true compromise leaves both parties unhappy or something along those lines.

Tori (17:26)
Mm-hmm.

Ian (17:27)
But you could tell that Lisa was not gonna go anywhere near that.

Tori (17:31)
Yeah.

Ian (17:31)
Which again it inconvenienced everybody else. It made Mary upset, but I think at some point it's like what

In the long run, what good is her apologizing but not meaning it actually going to do for her or the group?

Tori (17:48)
Yes. And I definitely agree with I don't think that you should offer empty apologies. I think what people again, Lisa can be a very polarizing cast member online, because she kind of does have a bit a pattern of doing that too. So it's almost like I'm not gonna apologize and it's like love it or leave it, right? I know you didn't watch this and this isn't on the show, but there's one scene from Girls Trip where she was like very

very, very late to they they had to catch a flight and she was like the last one on the bus and everyone on the bus is like are you gonna apologize like you almost made us miss our flight and she has the exact same response where she's like I'm I'm gonna reflect on this and I'll give an apology when it's appropriate but I'm not gonna give an apology right now just because you're asking for it. And that really pissed the women off because they're like no like you're wrong. Right now you are just wrong. Like just say I'm sorry for being late.

and again, that's why people it's like love love or hate Lisa because it's like you either agree one hundred percent and you're like, Yes, I respect the the almost defi or like the I don't know what's the word, but like the the where the steadfast, yes.

Ian (18:54)
Ste steadfast is the word Yeah, she's

like, I here is my stance. You're not gonna change me on this stance.

Tori (19:01)
Yeah, yeah.

Ian (19:03)
I'm gonna sit in this and if you don't like it, leave. But I think that's that's the interesting thing for me where it goes back to the business side of it. it's like you can't just walk away from

That interaction being like, well, if she's not gonna apologize, I'm just gonna sever the relationship. I'm gonna sever ties. If you're

Tori (19:18)
No.

Ian (19:19)
in the role of being a housewife. And I think that's the fascinating thing behind this, where so it's like all these women are like, okay, what do we do with this? We have this person

Tori (19:25)
Yeah.

Ian (19:26)
who's steadfast not apologizing, but then we obviously have, you know, with this season, these friendships, the these people to support.

Tori (19:33)
Mm-hmm.

Ian (19:34)
So like, what do we do with this and where do we go with it? And I think that's part of the interesting question that never really gets answered is we just kind of see where it goes.

just kind of a fascinating dynamic. Yeah.

Tori (19:42)
Yeah. Yeah, you do have to just see where it goes. Yeah.

Yeah. But that's definitely a character trait for Lisa. And I mean it even came up y you've only seen a glimpse of it with her husband too. But that was a big thing last year where he's like, I feel like you're not listening when I'm try because she can be so steadfast where it's like, But this is what I do and this is how I feel, regardless. it's definitely a theme. But yeah, you're right. How how

How to be aware of that but even on a larger scale for this as an example is like, well, it does make good TV.

Ian (20:21)
It does and there's this important dynamic that I think this is maybe a very nuanced conversation, but I think it's important when we come to the context of this is, you know, we've talked about an apology that blames we talked about this last time an apology

Tori (20:32)
Mm-hmm.

Ian (20:33)
that blames somebody else for their feelings getting in the way. And it's interesting because I have this conversation with clients too, where it's sort of the reverse. It's like, at what point am I responsible for your feelings in terms of making you better? So when you look at Lisa, like it is it Lisa's responsibility to

make all of these women feel better at brunch? And

Tori (20:55)
Right.

Ian (20:55)
the short answer is it's not really her responsibility, right? It's not our

Tori (20:59)
Mm mm.

Ian (21:00)
job to make sure that everybody around us is okay. And yet having that view of it will lead to consequences or challenges in relationships.

Tori (21:10)
Right,

right. Because it's what you can control, what you can't control and what you can control is your own actions

Ian (21:16)
I think that's one of the most fascinating things about Lisa is like w when you have sometimes when you have people in that role who okay I know I'm not responsible for your feelings or for making you feel better yet I am attuned to the fact that you are not feeling good or you're not feeling like there's a resolution to it. And so I attend to that. Lisa does not attend from what I have seen, shh

Tori (21:32)
Yes. That's the thing yeah, that's what rubs yeah, right.

Ian (21:37)
she does not attend to the humanness of it.

And

Tori (21:40)
Yeah.

Ian (21:41)
is more of like, it's so black and white, and it's so almost like litigious. Like it's almost like

Tori (21:46)
huh.

Ian (21:47)
a court of law where she's like, the evidence does not support an apology at this point. Therefore,

Tori (21:52)
Right.

Ian (21:53)
I have come to the conclusion that apology is not necessary, where it sort of does not take in the human nature of like, I don't have to apologize, but I can also acknowledge the the dialectic, right? The two things that can be true: that my lack of apology still impacts.

impacts you.

Tori (22:09)
Well, how about this? Maybe this sums it up well too as to why this probably rubbed everyone at brunch wrong. It's like, okay, fine, you don't have to apologize because it's going to be empty. But did you have to start singing the song again into Bronwyn's face? that's that extra step where it's like, now you know that her feelings are hurt and you are gonna sing the song again. That's the part where I'm sure everyone at brunch is like, come on now.

Ian (22:38)
Do we have to poke the bear? do we really?

Tori (22:39)
It's it's that po it's

it's the choice to poke the bear. Again, I don't think that people should give empty apologies.

Ian (22:44)
Yeah, I didn't either.

Tori (22:45)
But if you know that you your actions are hurting someone and you choose to double down on it, maybe that's like where it starts to be a bit too much.

Ian (22:56)
you make a great point. There's a lot of research and a lot of stories in the world that look at people who have had significant impacts on history or things that have happened. And a lot of times we will judge people for information that we have now that they didn't know at the time. So in theory, and I think this was what Bron was getting at, was like,

Tori (23:12)
Mm-hmm.

Ian (23:15)
nobody asked you to perform, but we could also see that like nobody asked you not to perform, and you didn't have the information, though you could have gleaned it reasonably.

That

Tori (23:25)
Yeah.

Ian (23:25)
this would have been

offensive or hurtful to somebody. so we can look at Lisa and Meredith and say, well, they didn't actually know, they didn't have the information that this would affect Bronwyn the way that it did. However, now that she has the information, not only the information at the party, but the information that was given to her after, before they're on court, on the plane, in the cockpit, right? At the brunt.

Tori (23:46)
Yep. Yep. Yep. She has not stopped

singing. Yeah. Yeah.

Ian (24:00)
Now that

she's obtained the information and I think that's the part where it is

like, hard to look at that and be like, well, you know, and not make excuses, but to maybe even empathize or understand because I will

Be totally honest, I have no idea why she keeps poking and prodding. Now, there's I'm look, there's seven seasons I don't on like I don't

Tori (24:18)
Uh-huh.

Ian (24:19)
doubt that there's stuff that I'm missing, but it is like once you know this information and somebody's heart, even if you don't want to apologize for it, do you stop?

Tori (24:27)
Right, right, do you stop? and yeah, so that's the big difference between Meredith and Lisa's response is that Meredith actually does say, like, okay, like I I apologize for that. and you know, a little flash forward for us for the Overthinking Reality Podcast, we are gonna do like a Thanksgiving episode, to make up for the break or whatever. And

One of the things that I think we will be talking about later is everyone's reactions and online and and how that affects things. And something that I have seen a lot online is people are like, it's so surprising that Meredith apologized. Like I guess they just weren't expecting that from Meredith.

I I don't know if that was necessarily my read. Meredith heard the information and she responded. Like, I do think that that's something that Meredith at least tries to pride herself on. one thing is that I guess Meredith's history has been a bit more Lisa-coded, where it's like, well, it is what it is. And so maybe that's why people are surprised that Meredith responded. But I generally feel like it just like, yeah, Meredith heard that it

Came across as hurtful or she thought it was something else and then she's just like, Yeah, okay, sorry. so I don't know. people have seemed like surprised that Meredith apologized. but I don't know. I I just thought that she responded to what she was hearing.

Ian (25:50)
I think there's a response, but I think it's interesting because we've talked about this too with apologies is again we can we can relate this to being a being a kid and with your parents and stuff too, right? how many of us would go up to a sibling if we got into an argument with them and just apologize on our own, or how many of us had to be prompted by our parent, you need to apologize? So there is

Tori (26:09)
Yeah, yeah.

Ian (26:10)
this dynamic of like, okay, so yes, Mary did apologize if we don't take anything away from that and just kind of put on the spot.

Tori (26:17)
Yeah. Well but she

Ian (26:17)
Like that was

Tori (26:18)
but she could have had Lisa's response as well. Yeah. And I think that's what pe I think

Ian (26:21)
She absolutely could have. Chi which is very clear.

Tori (26:25)
that that's what people made have been expecting. Again, because

Ian (26:27)
Mm-hmm.

Tori (26:28)
they did not stop singing it until they got to the brunch, it probably was like maybe they felt like, Yeah, it is what it is. 'Cause that again, that's what Meredith was saying in the previous episode is well, if you feel that way, too bad. But she heard it and she responded. So yeah, I guess

Ian (26:45)
And I I guess I do Yeah,

Tori (26:45)
Much different.

Ian (26:47)
it is. Well and speaking of apologies, I guess I owe an apology. I was very judgmental to Lisa and Meredith about

The diss track that was hyped up in my head. The di yes.

Tori (26:56)
The quote quote diss track. Yeah.

Ian (26:59)
The diss track. And I have heard rumors online, and by rumors I mean I watched a video of

Tori (27:05)
Ha ha ha.

Ian (27:06)
Lisa describing that that was allegedly not the diss track. So I will

Tori (27:11)
More to come.

Ian (27:13)
Yeah, I will I will own that that I rushed to judgment that the diss track was in fact not a diss track, but there are rumors

Tori (27:23)
word on the street. Yeah, the word on the street

Ian (27:23)
That there actually is yes.

Tori (27:26)
is there's more to come. Well because it's like what Heather said, that was not a song. That was a beat. that is what that was. Yeah, it's slam

Ian (27:31)
It's like slam poetry to music.

Tori (27:33)
poetry, and a little bit of movement. Some uncoordinated movement.

Ian (27:36)
I will say the like

I'm bored is just that line that line is just Yeah. And then in

Tori (27:42)
Or no Manipulation Yeah.

Ian (27:45)
in in one of those I think he's married and goes, I'm bored Okay.

Tori (27:48)
Yeah. Yeah.

All right. we've got the apology versus the non-apology. now this is something that is interesting that happened at this brunch and it's a little bit I guess if we stay on the theme of like business, there's a little bit of like breaking this fourth wall within this brunch that

It is revealed Meredith does it in a weird way. Meredith accuses Whitney of conspiring to get her off the show and by bringing Qui on the show.

yes, okay, you are responding. What yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Ian (28:28)
I just well it was I was that was a reaction that was not a result that was a reaction Well because

they did The Get the producers So when they it's the accusation of like bringing them the 50 year

Tori (28:38)
Yes. I knew you were gonna appreciate this, yeah.

Ian (28:42)
old and then they have like the It's like the gen or no it's the family feud style of like we're getting rid of like possible candidates of sabotage. Yes. A game board. Yes, yes.

Tori (28:51)
it they make it like it look like guess who? Guess who. Yes. Yeah.

Ian (28:55)
that had me laugh. So sorry, that I was like I forgot that happened for a minute. That had me cracking up though.

Tori (28:58)
Yes. And the

way that they reveal it too, because Meredith drops this bomb or she goes, what Meredith says is you've been conspiring with fifty plus year old women to get me off of the show. And like that sounds random. Like what are you talking about? and then Whitney's like

Where did you hear this? And Kwai goes, From me. And it's like dun dun dun. Because then they do like a flashback of Meredith and Kwai talking before, like pre-taped, but they didn't show it chronologically, right? Like they didn't show Meredith and Kwai making up first. They waited to reveal that they had made up when Whitney found out that they had made up. it was the production of

Well, where did you get this information? And then they give the flashback to the conversation.

So that that's big in terms of talking about casting, just up front to be like, yeah, we want Meredith off. but I think the big a big takeaway from this whole Meredith versus Whitney versus Qui, because right now, like I do not think Whitney and Meredith their problems are like not being resolved at one of these group brunches. Like it's just not gonna happen.

But what seems to be present with Whitney and Qi is that Whitney feels so

not protective. It's not the word I wanna use. Possessive. She feels very possessive of Kwai's friendship. That the fact that Kwai and Meredith could have a friendship or a relationship is so threatening to Whitney that she at one point is like, well if no one's gonna have my back, then I'm not gonna have hers. And it's just totally canceling out Whitney and Kwai's relationship because she feels like she she has to be in control

of what Kwai hears from Meredith, from Lisa, otherwise their friendship is in jeopardy. and maybe they worked past it when they got together one on one, like Whitney and Kwai. But it really just comes off as Whitney being possessive of this friendship and feeling very at risk of Kwai making friends. she says like multiple times, this isn't how I thought you were gonna come into the group.

And she almost like sabotages how she came into the group because it didn't go the way that she wanted it to. So I thought that that that dynamic was really interesting to me this episode.

Ian (31:31)
I I've made this comment to you many, many times. I cannot keep up with who is upset with, isn't talking to. So I can, you know, see where that would be something you would need to, you know, we talk about defense mechanisms all the time. That of course the defense mechanism is like I need to protect this because I don't know what's going on or who's talking. And clearly, you know, people are having conversations one on one in small groups. And so, you know, from from more of an empathic, I wouldn't say necessarily agree with what Whitney's doing, but like from an empathic standpoint, like I understand the need to like

It's almost like there's this term, when you talk about people being very stressed, is this a hyper vigilant. It's like I have to be attuned to everything that's happening so I can control and that's what feels like with what you're talking about with Whitney's Yeah

possessiveness or or protection, whatever it is of of the relationship with Kawhi is this hypervigilance to how close are her and Meredith getting? how much is this changing? How much

Tori (32:22)
Yes.

Ian (32:22)
like I have to be constantly on guard to try and make sure that this doesn't get to a place where I no longer have control or or or maybe even better to say is where it no longer meets the expectations of what I thought it would be.

Tori (32:33)
Yeah. Because she certainly sees it as choosing sides. Like, if you are friends with Meredith, then you're not friends with me. But if you are friends with me, then you're not friends with Meredith. And Kwai is trying to say like I am in the mid like I'm trying to make my own relationships. she got brought on as a full or no, no. I mean she is a friend of, but she's friend of Whitney and Lisa technically. I mean, in terms of like how the show is doing it, but like

She's coming on trying to make her own relationships. It's almost like, well, what did Whitney expect? She was never gonna talk to Meredith. but that bothered her so much that she did end up throwing her under the bus on multiple occasions. What are you laughing at?

Ian (33:17)
I just I I I do think based on what I mean the dynamics of these conversations and relationships is I do think there is an expectation that if somebody is

a friend of mine or what or we have history that there is this unwritten rule or this implicit understanding that, I this is this is sort of a complex thing too, but it's interesting is we oftentimes have these implicit sort of expectations people or things or group or social norms in our head. And I do think you see this a lot, right? Of like when when they're at all these dinners and they're, you know, accusing each other of talking or spilling this or saying something behind

Their back about that, or there's like this explicit expectation between some of those sort of dichotomous between two people relationships where that would never happen, they would never do that to me. She would never

Tori (34:07)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Ian (34:09)
say that. and so you know, as you're talking about, I'm like, Yeah, I mean, of course, there's this like vigilance to that because I think it does happen a lot. I think there is, you know, sort of these small subgroups within a larger group where

Tori (34:21)
Yeah.

Ian (34:21)
it's like, okay, maybe you know, one of the women could see an you know, she doesn't like.

Me that much, so maybe she would say something bad about me.

Tori (34:29)
Mm-hmm.

Ian (34:29)
but then there's other relationships where like that person would never do that to me.

Tori (34:33)
Yeah. Yeah, it it it comes across a little bit like they're like you said, the small dynamics in a large group. It's like a jealousy almost of like the loyalty. Like now I feel like you are being disloyal to me. And it does come back to the idea of like what is in my control and what's not in my control. And for like Whitney, it is not within her control if Kwai and Meredith end up having their own relationship.

But what she's trying to cling on to is how how the women view Kwai like saying, Well, actually, Kwai, you talked bad about Meredith behind her back. And so, haha, like don't be friends. Even though that's like doing more harm to Kwai and Whitney's friendship than it did to Meredith and Kwai's friendship. it's uncomfortable for us to

Recognize places that we don't have control and our brain automatically wants to find where what can I grab onto or what can I control in this scenario. And right now for Whitney, that was like to her detriment that she she did that.

Ian (35:36)
Cause

our brain is just wired this way. It's to assume that not having control is bad. But as you were saying it, I was like,

Tori (35:41)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Ian (35:43)
there could also be a chance that if Kwai and Meredith become friends, that they can reconcile, like Kwai could help reconcile with, you

Tori (35:51)
Mm-hmm.

Ian (35:52)
know, with Meredith and Whitney. But our brain doesn't consider that, right? Our brain says, like, that because I'm not in control, then this bad thing will happen.

there can't be a good outcome from this, which is what you're describing. And then these self, sabotaging intentionally or unintentionally, these behaviors take over. And sometimes us not being in control is not only the only option, but it is the best thing.

Tori (36:15)
Yeah, and you know what that's funny that you said, like again, this is maybe more of just I don't know if this is my housewife lens, or just like I don't I I don't know, take this however I say it. But when you're like, if if Meredith and Kwai got to be friends, then then then Qui could help them make up. And and my first thought actually was like, Well if

Kwai and Meredith become friends, maybe Kwai will find out on her own that she doesn't like Meredith. that's a more like pessimistic view of it. Like, yes, it would be nice to say, like, yes, let's hope for a reconciliation. But either way, it doesn't allow things for like them to take their own natural course or for Kwai to have her own experience with Meredith, not tainted by anything else. And it's like that's the thing that sometimes in relationships, again, it's like it's natural

to wanna feel like you have more control over how someone sees it. But it's a skill to be able to say, like you are allowed to have your own experience in this and I have this relationship with them, but that doesn't mean that that's gonna be your relationship with them. So yeah. It's it's a different view.

Ian (37:20)
My my

my very naive suggestion does also not make good T V or business. Again, I I will fully

Tori (37:25)
Right, right.

Ian (37:27)
own that like everything after what I say should have a caveat of like this is

Tori (37:31)
Well yeah, because

I think you s are still thinking by the end of it, everyone's gonna be like made up and then what's gonna happen next season or something like that. Like like that's what the yeah. There's the kumbaya, yeah.

Ian (37:37)
I 100% have this picture of like the reunion. Yeah. All

the hatchets are buried. Everybody's made up. They've gone through Yeah, course I mean, like, yeah, like that's of course what I'm thinking. Do I understand

Tori (37:47)
Yeah. Right.

Ian (37:50)
that that will never happen? A hundred percent. But I like to live in my own world sometimes, right? The the whole

Tori (37:53)
Yeah. Yeah.

Ian (37:55)
point of this podcast is to overthink things, and so why not live in your own world and overthink them?

Tori (37:59)
Yeah.

Yeah. There's plenty of options of how this ends. It's just,

Ian (38:01)
That's right. That's right. We're talking about likelihood at this point.

Tori (38:05)
Yes, right. okay. those were big hitters, I guess, for for the I mean, that's coming off of the brunch.

As we've been talking about small dynamics within the larger dynamic, one thing I do want to talk about is the end dinner with Mary, Heather, Angie, and Lisa. is that good if we move on to that now? Okay.

Ian (38:30)
Yeah. yeah.

Tori (38:31)
I thought that Lisa's presence at that dinner.

was very interesting and changed in my point of view in my opinion that to me changed how some of these women spoke. for example I thought it was really interesting when Mary asks Angie how is your marriage? Heather knows that it's not good. Like Angie has only shared that her marriage is not good with Heather.

at this point because Angie doesn't want to feel like a burden to Mary right now as she's dealing with her own grief, which is a conversation within itself of how Angie has been trying to like maybe protect Mary from her own stuff because she knows she's going through it. but I also I think that there was more at play with maybe if it had just been Heather, Angie and Mary, maybe that would have been a safe space for Angie to open up and say like it's not going great.

But Lisa being there, again, I don't know where cameras are when they're filming, but it did seem like Angie was like looking a lot like towards Lisa before she wanted to answer. And at one point Mary's like, just tell me how is your marriage? Like what is going on? But I don't think that she wanted to be that vulnerable in front of Lisa because they are not in a a trusted space. contrast that with then and we can come back to it because you're giggling at something. Do you want to say what you're giggling at now?

Ian (39:55)
I'm giggling at myself.

honestly, you you're

Tori (39:56)
okay.

Ian (39:58)
I I'm just listening intently because you're talking about like how interesting it is that this is the group. And you're making great points on like you know, there's you're often termed like circle of safety is like who do I feel safe around? And you're making great points on that. My laughter is coming from me being like I feel like when they have these little subgroups, like it's

Tori (40:17)
Mm-hmm.

Ian (40:18)
if you imagine just picking numbers out of a hat and placing random people together. to me, that's what it feels like where I I would have never put what you put together like that like to me Angie's been super awkward a lot of this. Like between her

her tea time with the wine and Mary. That was a very awkward exchange. she's been a little bit awkward with I mean the toothbrush is like not necessarily awkward, but interesting social choice. We'll put it that way.

Tori (40:45)
Yep. Sure.

Ian (40:46)
so I sort of saw and again I totally trust your your historical view on this as being absolutely accurate, but for me it was just sort of along the like awkwardness of change of like not reading to like either

be like, yeah, we'll talk about this later or 'cause I think Mary at one point was like, Are we gonna be here forever or something? should I get to the point? So I'm laughing more my

Tori (41:07)
Yeah, yes. I I read that yeah.

Ian (41:11)
own naive reaction to it.

Tori (41:13)
Well, the randomness or how they get these small groups made, I again I wonder who put that group together. Sometimes it's natural, maybe sometimes it's producers, but I was like, why did Lisa get an invite to that? after this trip, after the brunch? Like, why would they be like kikiing with Lisa when it doesn't seem like they're like in that kind of spot? Which again, this this brings me to my other point about Lisa's

presence at that dinner is that then that changes to me how Heather was talking about Bronwyn. Well and then how the group started talking about Bronwyn because at this dinner they really started to question like Bronwyn's relationships. Heather shares what Brittany has found about like the deed and everything. And while that's like sketch of Britney to do, bringing that up in front of Lisa, who is not good with Bronwyn, like at all

That to me felt messy of Heather to bring that to Lisa. But then all of the women again they start like laughing and joking at Bronwyn's expense. And again, that goes back on what we said last week where it's different where Heather makes a joke to Bronwyn's face and she can roll with it versus making this joke behind her back where then it feels mean spirited.

Ian (42:33)
Yeah, it I have to s I have to actively stop myself from the episode in these situations be like why is this happening? Like why are they saying that? Because I will never A I'll never have an answer and I'll always ask the why and it just keeps coming up in every situation and obviously they're I look, I don't think these are like mastermind manipulators that are like so calculated all the time.

Tori (43:00)
I mean, okay,

like give them some credit, but okay.

Ian (43:04)
I mean it was in the song, right? Manipulation. But okay, maybe that's my naivety. Like, and I will own that, but like to me, I'm not thinking they're out here like sort of moving chess pieces, but maybe, maybe they are. And I mean that would probably be the most

logical explanation for why everybody's dirt is being brought up in these different scenarios and situations with them not around. I guess I I don't know. It's just to again, that's just where my mind does like I short circuit.

Tori (43:36)
Yeah, well, here's the thing with housewives too, is sometimes that they can have information like on each other. And this isn't even specific to Salt Lake, but like this is something that's going on. Again, I don't need to get you too confused, but like with another city right now, there is another New York is coming out

Ian (43:54)
Mm-hmm.

Tori (43:54)
like week to week. But sometimes women will have information and there's almost like an unwritten rule on some of the stuff

what is gonna become public or not, as in like, I wouldn't bring that up on camera. Or like I chose to bring it up on camera. Like, no, again, this is getting a little bit into like the other city of it all. But like there's an example where some women did talk about something that happened off camera. And it was like this rumor and

who's gonna be mad at who for initially passing the rumor on off camera, but a whole nother woman is the one who chose to bring it on camera. And so it's like which one's worse? The fact that it was shared off camera or it was brought on camera. Because now it's the nation's business. Now it is all of Bravo's information, including things like the deed for br like bringing it back to Salt Lake. But like

who is signing the deed, questioning finances, questioning the boyfriend questioning is Todd paying for the boyfriend? saying all of these things on camera then makes it everyone's business. but while they're filming, it's like saying it to Lisa now makes it the whole group's business.

Ian (45:08)
well we found that was that was a toothbrush, right? It's like that's essentially how Kawhi's toothbrush thing was off camera maybe a little bit and then brought on

Tori (45:15)
Right, right.

Ian (45:17)
and then it was the nation's business and the most talk. Yeah, it it it makes a hundred it's just so fascinating to it's you know, it's almost it's almost like they're like investigative

journalists. Like they're getting this like exclusive information that, you know, they're like hiding their sources and then deciding when to

Tori (45:35)
yeah, you actually you have no idea because this is just a little history for you, but especially with Salt Lake, all of the women will reference like because they get DMs and stuff all the time, of like rumors and blah blah blah. That that's just gonna happen no matter what. But a

couple of seasons ago and this is why the rumor stuff hits Salt Lake very hard where it's like, are you talking to the press? Are you talking to tabloids? Are you spreading this information? Like they accuse Lisa of doing that a lot. But a couple of seasons ago, there was a woman who was a housewife. Okay. Like she was cast as a Salt Lake housewife.

Come to find out, she was controlling an a troll site. Like an a a a straight up like rumor troll site that had like

a lot of followers and wreaked havoc on some of these women's lives as in like it was a meme troll site. But she was the actual housewife. And so you might, you know, see if you ever see Heather saying like we have receipts, proof, timeline, like that is a really big thing. but that's because that's when they were confronting the meme account, the troll account. But anyways,

Ian (46:45)
Did she get kicked off the show for that?

Tori (46:47)
yeah, she didn't come back. Yeah. She didn't come back.

I d I think maybe this is speculation like they would not film with her. Like it it was that big of a betrayal for

Ian (46:55)
That's the line.

Tori (46:57)
Yeah. No, I think it was like I think it was really bad. have you seen if

Ian (46:59)
Well it is, but I so just for me

Tori (47:02)
you're hearing reality von Tees, that's what it was that's

Ian (47:04)
Okay.

Tori (47:05)
what the troll account was called.

Ian (47:07)
I have that reaction because to me that's a lot like some of the things that have happened on this season already for me would have been in the line. So I'm just very surprised that that's now I obviously lack context from it.

Tori (47:16)
Well, because that was like reeking ha like

it was like posting rumors. It was like yeah, it was like a level of trollery that was just like really far. But that's why again they take this kind of stuff seriously of like where are you

Ian (47:28)
Yeah.

Tori (47:28)
getting information, who are you passing it to, what gets brought up on camera, what doesn't get brought up on camera, all of this kind of stuff. Some of it is par for the course because again, all of the women are saying, Yes, we signed up for this, like we're supposed to show all of our stuff.

But while you know that it's all gonna be aired, I do think that there's just something to be said about who you bring it to and when. And like again, what's the tone? Because this this episode felt like that was mean of Heather to be talking about Bronwyn like that at the dinner, versus last week she was like she's in on the joke and she's rolling with it and having fun. And yeah, I don't know, it felt different because by the end of it they're all laughing at Bronwyn. So like you know that that was like mean.

Ian (48:09)
Make sense? So it'll be interesting to see what hap this this party that's coming up.

Tori (48:15)
Yeah, I think we're gonna get a lot. We are gonna get a lot.

Ian (48:18)
And fingers

crossed for the actual diss track. I'm not gonna let that go.

Tori (48:21)
I wonder. I wonder.

I don't know when that would come up. maybe they will sing at each party now. Like maybe that's just gonna be Meredith saying. It was really

Ian (48:29)
It

Tori (48:30)
funny when Meredith's like, I was gonna do a DJ set and Bron was like, Did anyone ask you to do a DJ set? Did you just

Ian (48:34)
Even ask you to teach this.

Tori (48:36)
assume like if there's a party you're gonna be the DJ? Like that was really funny.

Ian (48:41)
that is some of the sort of like the lack of awareness socially of just like, well yeah, if there's gonna be music, it's gonna be me. Like I'm gonna teach it.

Tori (48:49)
DJ Meredith, come on. Yeah, glamkins, obviously.

Ian (48:52)
The Clamkins.

my goodness. So okay, are you looking forward to anything? I will say that I may have peaked with looking forward to the distract. I don't know that what else I'm looking forward to, but I I'm curious I say I may. I may. I may have. That was the first

Tori (49:06)
don't say you peaked. Don't say you peaked. Like, okay. Like because yeah.

Ian (49:12)
time I've like been like, okay, I'm look like

Tori (49:15)
You were