Joining me today is
Steve Orenstein, the CEO
of Locate Technologies.
Locate is the first company in
Australia to put Bitcoin on their,
um, treasurer on their balance,
and it's the first company that
is a SX listed, so listed on the
Australian Stock Exchange, which
you know, is, is pretty special.
I'm very happy to have
you here today with us.
Steve.
Welcome.
Thanks, Andrea.
Great to be here.
Yay.
Um, I wanted to start basically
chronologically with your journey.
So how long has Locate
essentially been an operation for?
Yeah.
Um, so originally started in 2014.
Um, I had just previously, I was
running another business actually
before this called Connect to
Field, which was a job management
and scheduling application.
Uh, at the end of 2013, it got
acquired by a company outta the us.
Um, and so I worked with them
through the post acquisition,
um, process, and then I was sort
of, you know, looking for what
next to do and sort of saw this
opportunity in the logistics space.
And that was the start of, of
building the Zoom to you business.
Um, and so that was essentially
a, a marketplace, um, designed
for same day delivery,
um, across Australia.
Uh, and so independent drivers
having the ability to, um,
do deliveries and doing
that, you know, whether it's
the same day or whether in
three hours or, or one hour.
Um, and yeah, that sort of grew
from there into a locate to your
product, which is, um, essentially
taking on the technology that
we built for Zoom two, but
building it into its own product.
And so for companies that have
their own fleet of their own
drivers can use our software.
Um, to be able to manage their
own fleet and provide customers
ultimately with a, a really
nice, uh, customer experience.
Uh, and so that led us to
listing on the A SX, um, in 21.
Uh, we're in the middle of
lockdown lockdown in September
in Sydney, and, um, the company
yeah, listed on onto the As SX.
Nice.
Awesome.
And, and how did, um, how did
you find that, I guess the
pandemic impacted the business?
Did you get more
business as a result?
Yeah, I mean, for us it
was quite a positive thing
because we were in logistics.
Um, a lot of people
were working from home.
Um, and so there was a lot
of increased volume across
our Zoom two U network, um,
and then interest in our
locate to your business.
So yeah, it was, it was
a really positive thing,
um, for the business.
Um, very busy and, um, you know,
dealing with really increased
demands quite, quite suddenly.
Um, and so a lot of
logistical challenges.
But yeah, it, it was a really
good time for the business.
Yeah, I can, I can only imagine.
I mean, exciting, but also
challenging at the same time.
Exactly.
Um, yeah.
Um, so I'm curious to know
your journey into Bitcoin.
Um, when did you first start
even considering the idea
of potentially adding some
Bitcoin to your balance sheet?
Um, so yeah, I mean, I sort of
myself got introduced to Bitcoin
around sort of 2017, um, and
started buying sort of personally
and, um, yeah, at that point, um.
I sort of didn't really
sort of understand
exactly what I was buying.
Uh, and then as sort of
time went on, I started to
understand, you know, what is
money and then what actually
what Bitcoin actually meant.
Um, and then I started looking
at sort of companies like
strategy in the us um, and seeing
what they, they were doing.
And then looking at
like Meta Planet.
And then I'm like, well,
I've got an Australian
company that's listed.
I can be doing the
exact same thing.
And um, so it was the middle
of last year that I decided
to, to then present this,
this concept to the board.
And, um, that was the,
the start of the journey.
Sounds so exciting.
I would love to know how the
conversation with the board went.
Um, look, it was interesting
'cause I didn't warn anyone
that I was gonna do this, and
I don't even think I realized
what I was getting myself into.
I sort of thought, well, I was so
convinced on the Bitcoin strategy
and the strategy of coming.
Um, and doing it
inside of our company.
And I thought, you know,
and everyone would be on,
on the same page and, and
generally they, they were.
Um, but it required a lot
of going back to the basics.
And, and I always find sort of
going back and saying, okay, well
what, what is money and what do
we believe that money is today?
And is it the physical $10
note that we walk around
with or is it something else?
And then when you start that,
that conversation, it starts
people sort of, well, I've
never thought about that.
I've just always
thought about the money.
Is the money that, you know, that
we have in the note or the money
that sits in our bank account.
And then you start questioning,
well, how much of that money is
actually sitting in the bank?
And all those types of questions
around what actually is money?
And then that then goes into,
okay, well this is what Bitcoin
is and these are the, the,
the features of, of Bitcoin
and how does that relate?
And yeah, I found that process
was, was very useful and for
them to sort of start to, to get
their head around it and, um.
Yeah, and ultimately the board was
very supportive of, of this, this
change to the, to the business.
Um, and I guess the first stage
was, you know, go out and speak to
some ex existing investors and some
of our larger investors and see
what sort of reaction we'll get.
Um, and that was an
interesting process.
And yeah, and then go to the,
the A SX and talk to the As SX
around, you know, this is what
we're planning on doing, and
see what their reaction was
was gonna be to, to doing that.
So yeah, it sounds like quite
a long journey to get there.
Um, and, and what I love about
it is that you basically had
to like build this story and
narrative from the ground up.
Like you said, starting
with the basics.
What is money?
Zooming out, understanding the
entire history of money, you know,
what has what got us here today and
where are we potentially headed?
So yeah, it's very
interesting to hear that.
So out of the, the board.
The investors, and, sorry,
the third group was, um,
was the Asex.
Yes.
Who would you say was the
hardest one to sort of
win over or to convince?
Um, yeah, look, probably there was
some investors which were like,
I don't understand this Steve and
I don't understand Bitcoin, but
I, but I really back you and, and
trust your, your guidance on this.
Um, there was one or two
investors who, you know, had,
you know, didn't un, didn't
really understand Bitcoin and
didn't have any understanding of
Bitcoin and were really against
this, this particular strategy.
Um, and in fact I had one
investor who was, was very,
very disgruntled about this
particular, um, strategy.
And I think most of that came from.
Fear and fear of not understanding.
And, you know, it's Bitcoin is
a, is i, I think is a complex
topic because there's a bunch
of technology that you've
gotta understand about it.
And then you've also
gotta understand existing
monetary policies and, and
how that actually works.
And so it's not something that you
can necessarily pick up in a, in
a relatively short period of time.
Um, and so, yeah, so over time
I think it was just continuing
those conversations and, and not
just having one conversation,
having multiple conversations and
sort of getting them up to speed,
um, and answering the questions
that they might have, or concerns
that they might have as to,
you know, what does this mean?
And, um, and what does this
mean to the existing business
that we're forgetting about
what we're currently building?
And sort of reiterating, no,
this is, this is a complimentary
to what we're actually building
as part of our core business.
And in a really good way of
being able to capitalize the
business into the future.
Yeah.
I, I love that story.
And is there a particular sort of
person, individual, um, that went
from like Zero to Hero when it
comes to Bitcoin that you were like
really pleasantly surprised with?
Yeah, I mean, I think all of
those investors who were sort
of concerned or anti it, um,
yeah, have now come along
and, and spent a lot of time
themselves getting up to speed
and, um, and, and turned around.
And so, yeah, there's no,
there's no investor today that
is, that is on our register
stay that's anti this, this
what we're actually doing.
I think they're all very supportive
and, um, yeah, and I think see
that there's a, there's a really
good future in, in what we're
doing in, in building a Bitcoin
treasury business, uh, in the
Australian and, and now, you
know, the New Zealand market.
Yeah.
Yeah, that sounds awesome.
And last time I checked, which
was a while ago now, was you had
about 10 Bitcoin about, correct?
Yeah.
So we've got about, uh, 1212 now.
Um, oh
wow.
So we added a couple more, uh,
recently, but, um, yeah's, we've
got 12 on the balance sheet.
Lovely, lovely.
And I saw that recently as well.
You traveled, uh, to New York.
I wanna hear a little bit
more about that trip because
I saw some photos, um, coming
up on Twitter of like Michael
Sailor sitting in front of you.
That's right.
You get a chance to speak to him.
No, unfortunately, I, I didn't
get a chance to speak with him.
Um, but I got, I got to listen
to, yeah, him, him speak at, um,
you know, throughout the day.
Um, and just hearing, I guess
his insights into what he's been
building inside of strategy, um,
and how they're going through,
um, you know, the, the building of
their credit products, uh, and, and
what's what's taken to, to do that.
And so, yeah, it was, it was
a really interesting day.
Um, but I think what was also.
Quite cool to see was that him
sitting in the crowd and listening
to other people speak as well.
Um, he just didn't sit
in the background, but
he actually came and sat.
Um, and you saw in that photo
he was sitting, you know, a, a
few, few steps in front of me.
Yeah.
And just for context, what,
what was the actual event?
Uh, so it was a, it was a
Bitcoin treasury, uh, conference.
Um, oh, nice.
And yeah, it was all around,
um, people, there were, were
bitcoin treasury businesses.
Um, and so you had a range of
people from, you know, founders and
CEOs of, of, of Bitcoin treasury
businesses in investors, um, but
also suppliers to Bitcoin, treasury
businesses, so custodians, um,
exchanges, those types of people.
Nice, nice.
And was it also like a
mixture of private and
public sector as well, or?
Um, mostly, I mean, I guess
most of the companies that were
there from Bitcoin Treasury
were mostly public companies.
Um, mm-hmm.
There was one or two that
were private and then moving
into the public markets.
But yeah, I guess mostly in that,
in that public market space.
Nice, nice.
And was there like a, an
industry that dominated the room?
I would assume it's always tech,
but maybe I could be surprised.
Nah, look, I think, um,
yeah, most of these companies
were all, I guess, tech,
tech, tech based companies.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
And I wanna get into a little bit
about, um, the move to New Zealand.
So recently you guys have announced
that you'll be moving to the
New Zealand Stock Exchange.
What is kind of the
timeline on that and some
of the reasons behind it?
Yeah, so, um.
I guess when we started this
process, uh, which was January
this year, um, we announced
to the market that, um, we
adopted a new treasury policy
and that was gonna include
Bitcoin into our balance sheet.
And, um, we'd spoken about to
the A SX around, this is what
we were planning on doing, and
we, we didn't get any sort of
negative sort of feedback from
them or anything that, you know, we
should have been concerned about.
Um, and then we started the
process of, of buying Bitcoin and
suddenly they started asking a
lot of questions, um, and, and had
some concerns around us continuing
to, to buy, um, bitcoin on, on,
on our, on our balance sheet.
Um, and ultimately that
led to the A SX didn't have
any guidance around this.
Um, and during that process then
they started to develop some
guidance, um, and then started
to look at some of the existing
rules that existed on the A SX
and how they interacted with
companies that were holding, um,
Bitcoin on their balance sheet.
And ultimately, one of the
rules that was gonna impact
us into the future was.
Um, a rule called
the cash box rule.
Um, I think it was
designed in the 1980s.
Uh, and it's essentially designed
for companies to not hold large
amounts of cash on their balance
sheet or just to be a, a, a shell
that holds large amounts of cash.
Um, and yeah, we were, we were
going to, if we kept on buying
Bitcoin into the future, we would
be breaching this particular rule.
Um, and so that means that more
than 50% of your company's assets
were being held in, in, uh, cash or
cash alike, and they were deeming
Bitcoin to be cash, cash alike.
Um, and so yeah, that
was their interpretation.
Um, and yeah, that wasn't really
much that we could do to continue
to be able to keep on buying
Bitcoin, um, on our balance sheet.
And yeah, I guess we, our
strategy is to, to, to
keep on buying Bitcoin.
We see that it's, you know, a
great store of, um, sort of wealth
into the future and, you know,
highly likely gonna be the currency
of the world in the future.
Uh, and so we want to, you know,
build our balance sheet with,
with large amounts of Bitcoin.
Um, and that simply is just not,
not possible on the A SX, um,
in, based on the current rules.
Um, and so yeah, that then led to,
um, me suddenly going, okay, well
I need to, I still wanna do this,
um, but I've gotta find a solution
and trying to figure out what
that best solution was gonna be.
Um, and we went round looking at
different exchanges around the
world, um, majority of exchanges.
In fact, I didn't find
another exchange that had
this same cash box rule.
Um, so the cash box rule only
existed on the A SX and didn't
exist on all these other exchanges.
Um, and so there was
numerous exchanges that
we could have moved to.
Um, and then it came back to,
okay, which exchange is gonna be
the quickest for us to actually
move to, and the easiest,
um, process to go through.
Um, and it's a complicated process.
There's a, there's a lot
of moving parts to it.
Um, there's, yeah,
there's a lot to do.
It.
Our goal was to how do we
get listed in a new market
and can start continuing to
actually buy Bitcoin, um, as
quickly as we possibly can.
Um, and so we're still going
through that regulatory,
uh, approval process.
Um, there's a, a number of steps
that we need to go through.
Um, but yeah, I would expect that
in the coming weeks, um, that,
or months ahead, um, we should
be listed on the, on the NZX.
Um, and so we'll, we'll list as
a, as a fresh new IPO, um, subject
to all the regulatory approvals.
Um, and we'll have a PDS and so,
um, and then we'll then be in the
ability to start being able to
raise capital and, um, buy more
Bitcoin as a New Zealand business.
And then they have this process
called a scheme of arrangements.
And so that will enable us to move
all the existing shareholders.
Um, and be able to take
their shares and move them
into the New Zealand entity.
Um, and essentially where they
have shares, um, in the New
Zealand, New Zealand company.
And that will, that will probably
take us through to the end of
November, early December, until
that process actually completes.
So lots of, uh, fun legal work.
And so my
CFO is, uh, ridiculously
busy at the moment.
And, um, as are, as are all
the lawyers, uh, working
on the, the transaction.
Yep.
I can only imagine.
And like as part of that assessment
that you did for moving to I guess
a different country or a different
jurisdiction, did you also have to
look at like, uh, I guess adjacent,
um, regulations in terms of how
you might be impacted in purchasing
in that particular country or,
I don't, I dunno what else might
fall under, but I just feel like
every country has very different
regulations and Australia and New
Zealand seem to be particularly,
you know, behind the curve,
obviously compared to the us.
Yeah, I had no idea as well.
I was very, I was, I was
very curious to ask you
what the other, um, stock
exchanges around the world do.
Um, I was very surprised to
hear that this is, that cash
rule is particularly like
quite unique to Australia.
Yeah.
Is it because of Bitcoin's
liquidity that they're deeming
it like a cash-like asset?
Correct.
Yeah.
And so that was one of the,
the comments that actually
made to me was around, you
know, they deemed that Bitcoin
is, um, a liquid market.
You can convert that into
cash fairly easily, which
I I agree with the easiest.
Yeah, exactly.
And you can do that, you know, 24
hours a day, seven days a week.
Um, yeah.
So on that basis, yeah, I,
I definitely agreed that
that was, that was the case.
Um, and I just think it's a, it's
a, it's an unusual rule and it's
a probably a fairly silly rule.
Um, but yeah, and I guess,
um, you know, I think as
it being a regulator, it's,
it, you've got a tough job.
Um, things, technology
moves and changes.
Um, the, as SX are going
through a number of different
changes and this was just like
a, another headache that they
were having to sort of think
about and deal with on the fly.
And, you know, bitcoin is, is a,
is a complex topic and so, um.
I think sometimes it's often easier
for a regulator just to say no,
rather than actually spending
time to actually understand it
and then going, what does, what
does this actually mean and what
does this mean for the country?
Um, what does this
mean for investors?
Uh, and, you know, what's the
risk to investors and how does
this compare to other risks that
investors might be having, um,
on other, um, investments that
they might be making on the A SX?
Yep, yep.
Yeah, I'm very interested as
well to know, I, I guess I, you
probably won't know the answer
to this 'cause you might be more
like internal information, but
I'm curious as to why that role
would be there in the first place.
Um, you know, even Bitcoin
aside if it's, if it's why
Yeah, I'm just curious.
Yeah, I, I think this is a rule
that's been there for a long time.
Um, and again, I think
it's quite difficult in
regulated environments.
Rules get added all the time,
and that point in time might
have had a particular purpose,
then no one actually goes back
and removes the rules, um, if
they no, no longer required.
And so to remove a rule, I think
requires a group of people inside
of an organization or business to
then go, Hey, why is this here?
Does this make sense today?
Um, and or, you know, what was
this rule designed to stop?
And I think the rule was originally
designed to stop, um, SPACs.
So special purpose vehicles
just being created, which just
had cash in them and cash only.
Um, and so I think that
was the, the main sort
of purpose originally.
Um, but yeah, in this instance
here, something new has happened.
There's a new technology available,
there's a new form of money
that's been built, and there's
a reason why a company wants to
hold large amounts of Bitcoin.
Um, and so does that mean
that that rule should apply
to this type of company?
That's, uh, that's
the big question.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
And I, I wonder as well
what the risks are.
Like, forgive my ignorance,
I should probably know this,
but I don't look, so what,
how would the A SX generate
income in the first place?
Like what is their source of money?
Yeah, so, so companies like
ourselves, so any company that's
listed, um, pays listing fees.
Um, and so yeah, they, they
generate money from companies.
There's, um, there used to be over
2000 companies listed on the A SX.
Um, there's been a number of
companies that have de-listed,
um, over the last few years.
And so it's becoming more and more
challenging for smaller companies
to actually be listed on the A SX.
Um, and so I think that number's
fallen down to about 1900.
Um, and yeah, I mean, every
company, depending on the
size is, is, is spending
a, a reasonable amount of
money, um, to, to be listed.
Uh, and I imagine they would
also earn income through.
You know, as, as stock is
traded, I, I imagine they collect
fees along that way as well.
I'm, I'm not entirely sure,
but definitely from listing
fees of companies being listed.
Yeah.
So I'm just kind of trying to think
ahead now, the, the motivating
factor for them to change this
policy might be potentially
more Australian companies be
interested in holding Bitcoin and
as a result, having to go to New
Zealand and other jurisdictions
in order to make that happen.
But have you heard from anyone
else, any of your colleagues
in the industry that they're
interested in doing the same?
I remember last year when you
actually listed, I found you and
I commented on your LinkedIn post
where you made the announcement.
You're like, I think
we're the first.
I'm like, you're
definitely the first.
Yeah.
Um, look, I, yeah, I haven't seen
of anyone else doing what we're
doing and I think, um, we'll be
the first company that's moved
from the A SX to the NZX, um, ever.
Right.
Um, yep.
Yeah, usually companies
actually go the other way.
They migrate from the
NZX to the, to the A SX.
Um, so we're, we're doing,
we're doing the opposite.
Um, and so I think it's, yeah,
it's a big deal for the, for the
NZX to, to see that occurring.
Um, and we will others follow.
Yeah, I'm, I'm curious just
to see, it's not a, it's not
a simple transition and so
it really requires a lot of
commitment to, to this strategy.
Um, it's expensive to move, um,
and there's a lot of work involved
in, in doing and quite distracting.
Um, but yeah, when I, everyone
I'm doing, and I've got a strategy
I'm thinking about, okay, it's
not just for the next year, it's
for the next 10 years or 20 years.
And so taking a long term view, and
I think this, this makes sense for
our business over the long term.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
Um, it is a long-term asset, so
it's that, that you're holding.
Um, but now I'm curious
to know a little bit
about your personal story.
So I think I've read somewhere as
well that, you know, previously
to, you know, when you first got
into Bitcoin that you were also
quite interested in Ethereum
as well, and then you kind of
at some point in your journey
decided that, you know, Bitcoin's
kind of the real deal and you're
gonna do much better if you just
focus on, on that single asset.
Is that kind of what I read or
am I just making things up here?
Yeah, no.
Um, I think at the time, back
in 2017, sort of, I bought, um,
so Bitcoin, I also bought some
Ethereum and I really didn't know
what I was buying at that point.
I sort of had an idea.
Um, and then I sort of just
been holding both of them.
I was, you know, overweight, like
a, a much higher portion of, of
Bitcoin and a small percentage of.
Of Ethereum.
Um, and then as my sort of
knowledge became a lot more, um,
in depth around Bitcoin, then I
was like, well, yeah, I, I, I don't
need to hold Ethereum anymore.
Um, and sold out of Ethereum
and, and put that money,
um, back into to Bitcoin.
Um, but yeah, so generally always
been much higher in Bitcoin.
Um, but yeah, I had a little
bit of Ethereum and then yeah,
thought, yeah, it's time to, to
actually sell it and, and move
that money into, into Bitcoin.
Yep.
And do you, do you remember
what your, um, moment was
when you, as you were learning
about Bitcoin that you felt
like, I really get it, this
is something quite special.
Um, what was your
light bulb moment?
I had a few.
Yeah, I mean, definitely.
Um, I think when you go from,
you know, having Bitcoin on
exchange and then moving it
to a cold storage wallet and
understanding, you know, the seed
phrase and how that can be set
up and how you can secure it, um.
That's, and then, and
suddenly I'm like, holy shit.
I'm my, I'm my own bank.
Uh, that is, is a pretty
interesting concept and that
you can, you know, travel
across the world and take
that, take that with you.
Um, and then as you start going
down that rabbit hole of thinking
about, okay, well, you know,
what's made up of the money that's
sitting in the bank today and
how that can, you know, there's
only a very small percentage
of everyone's money actually
sitting inside of the bank.
Um, and the fact that money can
be be printed, um, so easily.
And I remember back, um, just
as, just as before COVID sort of
really took place, it was sort
of in January, towards the end
of January, I started seeing, I
guess what was happening in China.
And I was seeing that building all
these hospitals, I'm like, this is
gonna hit everywhere in the world.
Um, and I started
thinking about that.
From a, from an investment
point of view, and what does
that mean to my portfolio?
Um, and so at the time I actually
liquidated my portfolio into cash.
Um, I didn't, I I, I maintained
my Bitcoin position, um, but only
the equities that I was holding,
I just put that into, into cash.
Uh, and so then the, the stock
market crash and I was like, great.
I made the really great decision.
And then suddenly the, the stock
market started to rally and I was
like, this doesn't make sense.
Why is this, why is this happening?
And it was happening because all
this money was being printed.
Um, and governments were yeah,
producing huge amounts of capital
into the markets to, to essentially
create this false, um, economy that
was happening in the stock market,
and assets were all being inflated.
Uh, and so yeah, then it
gets you thinking, okay,
well how does this all end?
And then what does that look like?
And the debt keeps on growing
in the US and yeah, it always
comes back to, to Bitcoin as
being a really safe place to
be, be holding your money.
Yeah.
And, and I, I've started paying
attention a little bit as to like
the adoption metrics in countries
where you experience hyperinflation
or, uh, some political disturbance.
Right.
And just how fast the adoption
in that particular country takes
off is, is absolutely like crazy.
And yeah.
So now whenever I hear something
on the news, I'm like, oh,
yep, another country's just
going to adopt Bitcoin.
Like, you know, most recently
with, um, Vietnam closing
all those bank accounts, like
something like 86 million bank
accounts closed because they
didn't wanna do the biometric.
That's just, that's a huge
selling point for, for Bitcoin.
Yeah, that's right.
That's right.
And yeah, I can just imagine
the next wave will happen
in Vietnam because of that.
Um, correct.
So, yeah, it's very, very exciting.
Um, but I wanted to ask you.
Sorry, I've just lost my train of
thought 'cause I get very excited.
Um, so in terms of your, your
future planning for Locate
technologies, you are just
going to focus on Bitcoin for
the near to long-term future?
Yeah, I mean, um, so we'll continue
to keep operating our existing
businesses, um, the, the both
of the two logistics businesses.
But in terms of our treasury,
it's only gonna be Bitcoin
or only ever Bitcoin.
Um, and so the goal is to, um,
increase our Bitcoin holdings.
Um, eventually once we have
a certain size, uh, Bitcoin
balance sheet, then we'll
start thinking about offering
some, some debt products.
Um, and so yeah, we'll, we'll have
that debt being backed by, uh,
Bitcoin holdings into the future.
And, and that is essentially,
I guess, one of the.
The great things about having
a company which is different
to an individual is that you're
able to take your company's
assets and then get some debt on
top of that and using, um, the
fiat currency to, to put that
into, into buying more Bitcoin.
Um, which is a great way of being
able to getting, getting leverage
inside of, uh, a Bitcoin position.
Um, very different to an individual
taking on sort of margin type debt.
And if the Bitcoin price fluctuates
your mar you get a margin call
and yeah, it becomes that, that we
definitely, we won't be doing, but
where you can actually take some
long term debt type products, um,
and putting that into Bitcoin makes
a lot of sense for, for a company.
Yeah,
yeah, for sure.
Like I'm thinking I need to
start a company for this reason.
Yeah.
But I'm, I'm, I'm also curious to
know, so is locate the, a logistics
side of the business, are you also
operating in New Zealand or are
you just literally taking Yeah, so,
um, our Zoom team business just
is in the Australia market.
Um, the locate, uh, two
year product, that's
our software product.
We sell that globally.
Um, and so we've got
yeah, customers in New
Zealand, in the us um, and
throughout Europe and the uk.
Uh, and so yeah, we see
there's a big opportunity to
keep expanding on, on that.
Um, and in fact, I guess this whole
Bitcoin strategy has enabled us
to get a lot more media attention
around what we're doing, and
that's then has resulted in more
people knowing about our business
and, um, yeah, will hopefully
lead to, to more customers as
well that we can, um, yeah,
keep building the, the business.
Yeah.
Awesome.
And I also, I read on Twitter,
I get this where I get my
news from, um, that you'll
be doing another podcast
with someone from your board.
I wanna say Matt, is his name?
Mike?
Mike.
Mike, yes.
Close.
Yep.
And is Mike one of the people who's
also been recently Orange peeled
or?
Um, yeah.
Look, I mean, he's, he's been
owning Bitcoin for some time now.
Um, yeah.
And so I think he.
It was, yeah, it was, it was like,
it was something that he already
understood, um, when I came and
pitched to the board and, um, yeah,
I think, you know, had some Bitcoin
himself, but then, you know,
looking at how we, how we did this
inside of the company and so quite
supportive on, on the strategy.
Um, so yeah.
So that's, so that should be good.
I think we're, we're
doing that tomorrow.
Nice.
Yeah, I'm gonna watch that.
That's going to be awesome.
It's really nice.
It's really nice to sort of see
these changes slowly starting
to, you know, grow in Australia
and, and, and take root and Yeah.
Turn into something.
Yeah.
More serious.
Yeah, definitely.
Definitely.
Yeah.
But what is your experience in
just speaking to kind of the
general public, do you feel that
sentiment overall is changing
in Australia or is it still, you
think we're still a little bit
where it's treated like, Hmm.
Like, you know, that's different.
Um, I think sort of last year
when I started speaking to
people was definitely like.
Like, why?
What are you doing?
And a lot of people
didn't know about it.
Today when I speak to people, I
think they're like, okay, they're
like that, that's interesting.
And so they're not
like, you're crazy.
Um, they're like, okay,
that's, that's interesting.
But then they're still, there's
a real lack of, of knowledge.
Um, and you know, just there's
people that have, may have an
opinion about it, but actually
may not necessarily understand it.
Um, and so you see that
happening quite often.
And then, you know, things like,
well, there's only 21 million
Bitcoin that can ever be created.
Um, and understanding, you know,
what does that actually mean?
And then knowing that today's
currency isn't backed by gold,
and it used to be backed by gold.
Um, and so, yeah, so I think.
There's, there's still a lot
of of knowledge to be gained
by a lot of, a lot of people.
And I'd say there's a very
small percentage of the
overall population that's
actually understands it today.
And that's actually probably
part of the opportunity, um,
because if everyone understood
it and understood how the
banking system worked today,
then Bitcoin would be much, much
higher than where it is today.
Um, yeah.
And so I think there's certain
world events that actually occur
that actually does increase
the price in Bitcoin because
suddenly people are like,
actually, you know, what's,
what's happened in in Thailand
has meant there's real value in
owning Bitcoin because it can't
be controlled by a government.
And you can't just be, have
it turned off like that.
Um, and so it gives control
back to the, to the individual.
And so I think that's gonna
continue to keep on happening.
And there'll be a point in time
where the, the curve of, of
increase adoption is just going
to, um, increase dramatically.
And then there'll be a lot
more people sort of rushing to
towards owning more Bitcoin.
Mm. Yeah.
And I'm also curious to know,
I don't know if you've made
this information public or if
it is allowed to be public,
I'm just gonna ask it anyway,
but do you own Bitcoin?
Bitcoin or do you own like
Bitcoin through an ETF?
No, so we, yeah,
we own it directly.
Um, and we, we hold the, the
bitcoin, um, we've got an
institutional grade custodian.
Um, nice.
And so, yeah, so I mean,
one of the things we were
originally looking at was, you
know, how best do we hold it?
And cold storage wallets.
I didn't wanna leave
it on exchange, but.
Yeah, being a public company and
you've gotta go through an audit
process that needed to be on an
institutional grade, um, custodian.
Um, and so currently we're using
zoia, um, but we, and so Zoia
is, you know, one of the larger,
um, custodians backed by Standard
Charter Bank and NAB Bank.
Um, but yeah, ultimately as
our Bitcoin holding starts to
grow, um, we'll end up having
multiple custodians, um, makes
and so makes sense looking for
multiple institutional grade,
um, custodians to mitigate any
potential risks, um, between
any, any of those custodians.
Yeah, it makes sense.
And, and that this is
what I love about Bitcoin.
Like you can just always
continue going down the rabbit
hole of how do you de-risk,
how do you like, you know?
Yeah.
Correct.
Take that decentralization mindset
in all other areas of your life.
Like for example, me with banking,
I've started like banking with
multiple banks to see whichever
one's the easiest one to move money
in, you know, onto an exchange.
Yes.
Um, have you had any
issues with that or is it
a little bit different for
companies transferring money?
Um,
yeah, like, it was, yeah, we
certainly had some initially
sort of figuring out how best
we were gonna be able to do that
because, you know, certain banks
have certain restrictions in the
amount of money that you can.
Um, but yeah, once you move
into an institutional grade,
um, acquirer of Bitcoin, um,
then it becomes a bit easier.
And so then you can actually
move large amounts of money
to, to be able to do that.
Um, and so yeah, we've now got
that set up and, and that structure
sort of put in place, um, to be
able to do that and makes it.
Quite easy to be able to,
to buy more Bitcoin and
continue to keep on doing that
once we're in New Zealand.
Yeah.
Awesome, awesome.
Um, I would be curious to know,
'cause one of the things I, I
always have in the back of my
mind is thinking of my, like, past
employers and, and you know, I'm
quite good friends still with a lot
of people that I used to work with
and a lot of them are in CFO roles
and not necessarily for public
companies, but I'm like thinking,
how do I slip them a book?
How do I get a conversation
started and be like, Hey, just,
you know, open your mind to this.
But do you have any sort of advice
for people who are currently
in a business why they should
potentially consider having,
even if it's like a single
digit allocation to Bitcoin?
Yeah, um, I mean I think it still
always comes back to what is money
and just to actually understand
that in a lot of detail and, you
know, you can use something like
chat GPT to actually help you.
Pull together a presentation that
actually understands to help you
understand better what money is.
And going back to the gold
standards, when, when that,
when that existed, when
that stopped existing.
And then, okay, draw me a graph
that shows me the cost of the loaf
of bread from that time to today,
and how did that actually increase?
And then you put in, say,
building a graph that shows
me the, the US debt from, you
know, when we lost, when the
gold standard was lost to today.
And you see how that's actually
increasing and growing and
you're like, okay, so how
does this ever get fixed?
Um, no one's ever been able to
answer that question as to how the
US debt is ever gonna be fixed.
And that's because it can't,
like, there's just no ways
that they can, can fix it.
Um, and so the only way that
they can fix it is probably,
you know, the US government
buying large amounts of Bitcoin.
Um, and seeing, you know,
that's, that's, and you know.
If the US debt's going to keep
in increasing, which it will, um,
owning Bitcoin is going to, you
know, is gonna be really, really
important because the, the, the US
debt's just the, the US dollar is
just gonna keep on being devalued.
And so when you go to the
supermarket, everything will
just continue to keep on
costing a lot more money than,
than what it has previously.
Um, and you know, even, you
know, traveling in the US and
just seeing the cost of, of
things in the US as an Australian
taking Aussie dollars into the
US it is ridiculously expensive.
Um, and you, you know, you're
going into the, the supermarket
and even just buying a bottle of
water and that's, you know, the
five, $5 or $6 for a bottle of
water and you're like, okay, now
put that into Aussie dollar terms.
It's just, yeah, it's, it's insane.
Um, and the same going to
restaurants like you're spending.
The same in US dollar terms
in the US and it's like an $80
meal, but that's, you convert
that into Aussie dollars and
it's, yeah, it's, it's enormous.
And so that's the, the
devaluation of, of currencies
that are occurring because
governments are printing money.
Um, and yeah, I, I just
don't see that changing.
And so the way that an individual
can protect themselves against that
is by holding, holding Bitcoin.
Um, and so doing whatever
you possibly can to, to
hold as much Bitcoin as you,
as you possibly can today.
And yeah, it's often, I guess
people think about holding
Bitcoin is like, you know, it's
volatile, it's really scary, but
I think actually holding fear
currency is gonna become more of
an issue for an individual and
is actually the bigger risk is
actually holding the fear currency
rather than, than holding Bitcoin.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think a lot of people,
particularly since COVID, 'cause
there's just been massive.
Money printing worldwide in every
country since, since then to deal
with it, um, has really opened
up people's minds to how easy it
is to devalue the local currency.
Right.
We never know what kind of a
catastrophic event, you know, is
around the corner and what might
happen that will again, trigger
this off and we'll be in an even
worse situation than we are today.
Right.
And you know, in countries like
the US you look at that Fred data
of like the money printing, just
how it's gone up exponentially.
And we're talking about like
trillions of dollars being printed
pretty much like every day.
It's um, it just feels
like, uh, it's not something
to be taken lightly.
And even though it's happening
in the us the fact that they
have a global reserve currency,
the fact that they have the most
powerful central bank in the world.
Right,
right.
It
does have an impact on
every other country in
the world, like, and yes.
Countries such as like Australia,
that have a stronger currency
are less impacted than countries
that have a weaker currency.
But it still comes with
huge impacts and yeah.
And as part of like your
risk assessment, do you
look at that as well?
Like what is the US doing?
Yeah, I mean, I, I think
definitely, um, yeah, and it's,
it's sort of like there's this
invisible tax that's occurring.
Um, you don't realize that
it's actually happening.
Um, no one knows about it,
but I guess the governments
are making these decisions to
essentially devalue the currency.
And when you're going to the
shops, you know, your same
salary is not buying you the
same amount of money, listen,
the same amount of, uh, produce.
Um, and so that's, yeah,
that, that's I think
a, a really big impact.
And um, that's why Bitcoin is
such, is such a good thing.
'cause it solves a
lot of these problems.
Yeah, and I'm continuing to be
shocked by inflation in Australia.
Just almost every day I go and
purchase something and I'm just
in absolute shock as to how
fast and how high the prices
of things have increased.
Like, I went, just got a
little little cream from,
um, price line expecting.
I'm thinking, oh, this is
probably gonna cost around $12 95.
It was $30.
Yeah.
And I'm sure it costs less than
$2 to make, um, my coffee as well.
I purchased coffee on the
weekend and it was $6 60
because it had a 10% surcharge.
So I'm like, that's
nearly $7 for a coffee.
Like, I remember when it was $2
50 or $3 to get a flat white.
Not anymore.
Like, it's just, it's,
it's out of control.
And I love, like one of the
questions that I love, um.
Asking people to get them to
think about fiat currency is
when Australia went from the
pound to the dollar in 1966.
Um, since then, the
Australian dollar has less
lost 94.5% of its value.
So $1 from 1966 would be worth 6
cents in this year, like today.
Yeah, right.
Which is absolutely
crazy to think about.
So, you know, if you, I think I,
I read in um, Lawrence's book,
or maybe, I can't remember,
I've got so many Bitcoin books
going on at the same time.
But if you found like a, you know,
a chest of cash from, you know,
your grandfather, it wouldn't be
worth what you, what you think.
That's right.
It, it is worth today.
And it's like, right.
It's so disheartening and it's,
it's particularly sad how many
people don't, don't know this and,
and are surprised, like you, you
mentioned before to even learn.
You know that the dollar is
no longer pegged to gold.
It's completely separate.
So
yeah,
there's, there's a huge education.
Yeah.
Sorry.
It's just been this, this gradual
thing that's actually occurred
and it hasn't been, um, it's not,
it's not obvious to the individual
what's actually happening.
Um, the only way it's obvious
to them is when they go to the
supermarket, but that's still, um,
you know, this, this gradual thing.
It's like, gosh, that's
becoming expensive.
And then it's like, oh,
that's a bit more expensive.
And then, yeah.
So it's, um, it's quite, I think
it's quite a tricky thing for,
for individuals to easily see.
Mm mm Yeah.
And, and it is very triggering
for me as well to see sort
of the government scapegoat
supermarkets for prices.
I'm like, Hmm.
Kind of like, you know, not
pointing to the root rules here,
but not defending supermarkets.
I'm sure they're not a hundred
percent innocent either, but
like I I, I don't think the root
cause LA lies in the supermarkets
or just in general for the
price increases everywhere.
Um, but yeah
I guess you could maybe, I
don't know, talking more,
a bit, bit more about the
Bitcoin treasury companies
and what we're seeing, what's
happening, um, at the moment.
Maybe there's a bit of
a, a downward trend in
some of these companies.
Um, yeah.
Yeah.
And there's also, um, like
why someone should buy a
Bitcoin treasury versus
buying Bitcoin directly.
Yep.
I would love to know that.
'cause this is something I
don't know the answer to.
So what, what is
even the difference?
Yeah, I mean, I guess if you
are, um, you've got the choice
of buying Bitcoin and buying
a Bitcoin treasury business.
Um, and so.
Owning Bitcoin means you own, you
own the Bitcoin directly yourself.
And so I guess you've got the
ability to, to buy through an
exchange and you're storing it
hopefully in, in some sort of cold
storage, um, type environment.
Um, and so yeah, a lot, a
lot of people are doing that.
But then you've also got, got the
ability to buy like a Bitcoin ETF.
And so that's where, um,
someone's wrapped up a financial
pro instrument that's then has
Bitcoin sitting in the background.
And that's designed to, to make
it Bitcoin more accessible to
people that aren't, don't have an
ex an account with an exchange.
They don't wanna go through
the hassle of cult storage.
And they probably just want
some expo Bitcoin exposure.
Um, inside of their, of their
portfolio, and they're probably
not a Bitcoin maxi either.
Um, so if someone's told them that
owning Bitcoin is a great idea
and just, you know, allocate one
or 2% of your portfolio, or maybe
it's 5% of your portfolio to,
to Bitcoin and doing it through
an ETF, you know, probably makes
sense for people like that.
Um, and so then what's happened
is you've got now, I guess
a Bitcoin treasury business
where the company might have
an existing operating business.
And in our, since we, we do,
we've got our zoom to and
locate to you, uh, business,
and we're now saying, okay, we
also gonna start allocating, um,
some, some of our excess cash.
Um, or we might raise capital
to actually put that, that
that cash to work, um, in
buying more, more Bitcoin.
And so, um, that's different
to owning Bitcoin directly.
And what this allows is for
someone who may not necessarily.
Uh, own Bitcoin directly, but
they do want some sort of Bitcoin
exposure inside of their portfolio.
It makes it really easy for
them to do that 'cause they can
just go to their traditional,
um, share trading portfolio and
be able to, to buy our stock.
And that gives them some
exposure to, to Bitcoin.
Um, but where you, where this
becomes interesting is when
a company like ourselves, um,
owns a, a reasonable amount of
Bitcoin on our balance sheet,
um, and then starts to, to add
in leverage on top of that.
And so can, and building some,
some debt products allows
us to essentially take the
fiat currency out of the,
the, the Fiat worlds and then
put that into, into bitcoin.
Um, and then as our Bitcoin
holdings start to grow in the
future, because the value of
Bitcoin we expect will, will
continue to keep on growing, then
that's allowing us to then to
keep on continuing to take more
fiat currency, um, out of the, the
fiat world and bringing that into,
into the Bitcoin balance sheet.
Um, and so, you know, these, these
companies are a lot more volatile.
Um, generally, um, they can
have large, large swings.
Um, and so you have the
ability to potentially
make outperform Bitcoin.
Um, but it may, it may also, you
know, overperform or underperform
in terms of, you might have some,
some really heavy downward swings.
And so you're seeing that at
the market at the moment where
we've had a really big up upfront
and, and, and a lot of these
Bitcoin treasury businesses,
and then suddenly there's
been an enormous correction.
Um, and so we'll see how, you know,
I feel like we're sort of hit the
bottom of that right now and that
should start to trend upwards.
But you never know with what
the, what the markets do.
And, we'll, we'll
see how that plays.
Yeah, I've, I've always found
it interesting, like, I don't
necessarily, like, I mean, I'm,
I'm observing and watching what's
happening in this space, but I
don't necessarily understand it.
Like, I don't necessarily
understand why a company owning
Bitcoin would outgrow Bitcoin
or why would, like, even on a
downturn, like I just, I don't
understand because in my mind I
like things to be like one for one.
Yeah.
But that's not the case.
And I'm like, what is that premium?
But like, I don't know.
And so most companies today
that are listed companies,
um, they all trade at a,
a forward looking premium.
So, um, it might be that you're.
You know, you've got a, a
multiple of, of revenue that
your, your business might
be valued at, or it might be
a multiple of, of earnings.
Um, so profitability of
that business in the future.
And so if you look at, you
know, any of these large listed
companies like Facebook, they
all have very large multiples
of, of those, those numbers.
Um, and so that,
that's just common.
That's, that, that's how listed
markets operate, um, and have
been for, for many, many years.
Um, and so owning, um, you know, a,
a company that has a certain amount
of Bitcoin on their balance sheet
today, if they're doing things
to actually keep consistently,
keep on increasing that, then the
market is basically pricing that
in, but pricing that in ahead of
the time of it actually happening.
And so one of the metrics that
people look at is the time
to actually, you might be.
You know, it might be your
company's valued at two
times, um, the value of your
Bitcoin or sometimes more.
Um, but how long does it take for
that business to actually increase
their Bitcoin holdings to actually
get to that, that, that value?
And so sometimes that might
be, you know, 30 days,
sometimes that might be a year.
It might be,
uh, it
might be longer.
Um, and so it depends on the
velocity of which that company
can actually acquire more Bitcoin
onto their balance sheet, um, and
doing that through equity raises,
but as well as, um, some debt
instruments to be able to do that.
And so, yeah, so it's a,
it's a complex bit of work.
Um, and so it, it has the ability
to, to outperform Bitcoin.
Um, but it also has the
ability for people who are just
wanting some Bitcoin exposure
and are looking for a simple
way to be able to do that.
This, this allows
'em to, to do that.
The other interesting thing
is in certain markets across
the world, um, there's d.
Tax laws that apply based on,
um, owning Bitcoin directly
versus owning an equity.
And so, right.
So there can be some tax
advantages in being able to do
that depending on where your
local, um, like where, where
your tax residency actually is.
And so in Japan, there's an,
there's an advantage in actually
owning, um, a, an equity
versus owning Bitcoin directly.
Um, and it, it, it looks like
there's some advantages for New
Zealand tax residents in owning
an equity versus owning Bitcoin
directly, um, from the tax that
that's, um, that that's payable on,
on a gain that, that could occur.
Um, and so there's, yeah.
So when it's, there's a, there's
a range of different reasons as
to why you would own a Bitcoin
treasury, but sometimes it
could be what's the most tax
efficient way to, to actually
be able to, to, to do that.
Yeah.
That, that's really interesting.
So what would define
a Bitcoin treasury?
Is it merely a company
that owns Bitcoin?
Is that what
I think it's, I think it's
more than that because you can.
You very easily go and buy Bitcoin
and put on your balance sheet.
But I think it's where those
companies are consistently buying
Bitcoin on a, on a regular basis.
Um, and, and looking to do
that and looking for then
ways to continually keep
on maximizing the amount of
Bitcoin that you're holding on
your, on your balance sheet.
Um, and so yeah, there's, you
know, obviously companies like
strategy and Meta Planete that
have been very successful and,
and being able to do that.
Yeah.
And I mean, um, I mean, my
personal biases obviously
owning, owning Bitcoin directly.
Like I don't necessarily care
about just the price exposure.
I want to have a piece of like
this scarce asset ever created.
Yeah.
Um, you know, so that's,
yeah, I, I'm definitely
biased in that regard.
Yeah.
And I, I think that makes,
makes sense for everyone
to, to be able to do that.
Um, I. Yeah.
And so I think that
that makes sense.
Uh, this is potentially a way to
be able to outperform that asset
class, but, you know, time will
tell whether that's the case or
not, and so we'll, we'll see.
Yeah.
And I'm very curious because you're
a publicly listed company, are
there any restrictions in terms
of what announcements you are and
not allowed to make in advance?
Like, are you allowed to
disclose that you've, you know,
are you going to purchase more
Bitcoin or is that something
you can only say after the fact?
Yeah, so as a public company,
um, yeah, generally you,
you're only, um, saying what
you're gonna do once it has
actually been announced.
Um, and so we announced, I guess,
to the market previously that
this is our intention was to, to
own Bitcoin on our balance sheet.
Um, and so when we buy
Bitcoin, um, we would
announce that to the market.
So we're, we're, we're currently
not buying any Bitcoin, um,
because of the, the A SX rule that,
that, um, we've come up against.
So once we transition into the,
into the nzx, um, then yeah,
we would, we would start being,
being able to buy Bitcoin again.
Yeah.
Oh, you're not buying the deep.
Exactly.
I remember everyone
was celebrating 109.
Like he was a very
welcome, welcome change.
And this is what's so funny to
me about Bitcoin is like our
fear greed index is broken.
It's broken, it's the inverse.
Yeah, that's right.
Um, yeah, but I, I think it's
interesting 'cause it's, we
view it when the price drops
as like there's an opportunity
to actually accumulate more.
Um, and that's because we've
got a deep understanding of,
of what actually it is that
you, that, that, that we own.
Um, whereas an outsider looking
at example, oh my God, like
Bitcoin's just actually,
um, dropped a huge amount.
Um, and someone said to me the
other day, but like, you know,
there was some, someone who
had an, an enormous holding.
Actually just sold a large
amount of Bitcoin, is
that, that's really bad.
And I'm like, well, actually
that's a really positive thing
for, for the Bitcoin network
because suddenly, you know,
there's a person that's probably
acquired a large amount of Bitcoin
very, very early on, they were
holding that, you know, billions
of dollars worth of Bitcoin.
They've now sold it, and
now that's actually been
distributed against hundreds
or thousands of, of people.
Um, and so it's gonna make
the overall network a lot
more stable into the future.
And, um, that will reduce
volatility as, as more
people actually start
to, to own the asset.
Mm-hmm.
And I know a lot of people are
also concerned about, you know,
centralization of distribution
that being heavily skewed towards,
I guess, those early adopters.
But, um, I think it is a positive
sign that, you know, that
people do have pressure to sell.
Like if you've been holding Bitcoin
for 10 years, you wanna reap
the fruits of your conviction.
Yeah, that's
right.
That's right.
Yeah.
And I think, you know, if
you are holding, you know.
Billions of dollars of
Bitcoin, that that came from
very little amounts of money.
Um, do you wanna be able to have
the ability to, to spend that?
Um, and so yeah, I think
that's, that's a positive
thing for the network.
Yeah, absolutely.
And will you have been moving
your business to New Zealand,
like as in people and buildings?
Um, we,
we, yeah, we've, we, we've
got two new directors that
have just joined us, um, to
the board in, in New Zealand.
Um, but we'll, yeah, we'll continue
to keep operating our existing, um,
software business and, and locate
to, and zoom to your business
here in the Australian market.
Um, but I'll be spending a lot
more time in New Zealand, um,
than what I previously had.
And so getting, uh, quite used to
that flight backwards and forwards
between Sydney and uh, Auckland.
I'm, I'm amazed that you
are not jet lagged right
now, or maybe you are,
you just.
The, the last, uh, two or three
weeks has certainly been a lot
of flying and, um, glad this
week I'm sitting in front of my
desk and, uh, I'm enjoying that.
Yeah, I, I would be feeling
very radioactive on.
Yeah.
Um, I'm curious to know,
Steve, do you have any favorite
models that you like to track?
Or, or like, when it comes to
price, what's your personal
sort of philosophy on where
we are headed in Bitcoin?
Do you have any thoughts on that?
No, I, I very much, um, I guess
have got a thesis on the reason
as to why I think Bitcoin's gonna
increase into the future, um, and.
When and how that does that.
I dunno.
And I don't think anyone knows.
Um, and so I spend very little
time thinking about that.
Um, other than I've, I've bought
it and, um, it's something
that I'll revisit and look at
in 10 to 20 years time and,
um, might sell a little bit
at that point to do something
with, but at this point in time,
um, it's, it's an asset to, to
be held and, and not touched.
Um, and hopefully, you know,
it's an asset that continues on
in generations into the future,
um, and to be passed down.
Um, and so, yeah, so I think it's,
it's, uh, yeah, I think it's,
it's a real, it's obviously a
very good store of value and so
being able to hold that for the
long term is, is really important.
And, um, don't get distracted with
price movements in, in between.
Um, yeah, lot lots of people
talk about it, but I tend to
not care or worry about it.
Um, it's, it's bought and it's just
gonna sit there for a long time.
And so I think, um.
It is often useful zooming out
and not being too focused on the,
the detailed day-to-day movements.
Um, and if you've got conviction
in the asset, then just hold it
and ignore the, the volatility in
between because, uh, that'll drive
you crazy and flight strategy.
Yeah, absolutely.
Like Ilene got into Bitcoin last
year and, and we've pretty much,
everyone's saying, you know, this
is my first, I guess, ball run
and everyone's saying we've been
chop solid eating for months.
So I, uh, as much as I am not
like price oriented, I kind of
just want the experience of like,
yha, you know, I just, I just,
I just want the ride, you know,
and I don't care where it falls
back to like, uh, I, I just yeah.
Want that experience of, you
know, um, yeah, but I'm, I'm.
This what happens every time I
go on a tangent, I'll lose the
question that I wanted to ask you.
Like seriously every time.
Yes.
I remembered.
Um, I remembered also that
you sold your car for Bitcoin.
Yeah.
And I think that's like smoke.
Um, you know, like, I guess
once you get, have a really deep
conviction in it, then you're
like looking at everything that
you're owning and going, how
do I convert this into Bitcoin?
Um, and so yeah, that was,
I had a, a very nice car.
Um, and yeah, decided that,
uh, it made more sense holding
it in, in Bitcoin than,
than driving a fancy car.
And, um, yeah, I,
I don't regret it.
I enjoy driving that car, but,
um, yeah, I also enjoy not
having it and, um, just having
a pretty normal car and, and,
and seeing, seeing that money
grow, um, sitting in Bitcoin.
Yeah, exactly.
Plus you can buy that
car back for a lot less.
Exactly.
Like for SATs.
Exactly.
Yeah.
In, in the future.
But do you think like Bitcoin
has sort of changed your, um,
spending habits and any sort of
behavioral since you got into it?
Um, I definitely think like
it's definitely changed the way
I would invest in the future.
And so there's very few things
that I would invest, invest my
money in other than than Bitcoin.
And in fact, the majority
of my portfolio is Bitcoin
and or my own company.
Um, and so that's where e
everything is, and it's against
everything that a financial
planner would, would tell you,
um, in terms of diversification.
But I think.
I don't think diversification
is necessarily a good thing.
I think once you actually
understand what you're
actually owning and why you're
owning it, um, you don't
need di diversification.
Um, and so, um, yeah, that's,
that's, that's, that's my,
my, my advice, my, my, my, my
view on, on, on, on investing.
Um, and so yeah, I think it's
just having conviction and, and
real deep understanding of what
you're actually investing in.
And I think where lots of wealth
has been created historically,
it's not actually by being,
having a di diversified portfolio,
it's actually where you've got
real conviction in something
and that thing is outperformed
the, the market really well.
Um, and so obviously there's
lots of risks associated
with, with doing that.
Um, but that's, yeah,
I'm very comfortable in,
in taking on that risk.
Yeah, well, it makes sense.
The whole advice around
di diversification came
from people who championed
the debt-based system.
So all of the products that
they were diversifying against
were all based around the
same debt-based products.
So, you know, when you're in
something that's got a complete
supply, su supply, uh, supply
cap and predictable issuance
schedule, then it Yeah.
Like why would you diversify?
Yeah.
This is not financial advice, but,
right.
Exactly.
Uh,
yeah.
I think bitcoin's wonderful in that
sense that everyone is updating
and renegotiating what they think
they know about money against
this new asset, and that's kind
of the wonderful thing about it.
Definitely.
Um, before we close up, do
you have any sort of final,
final words that you wanna
leave with, with the audience?
Um, yeah.
Look, I think this is a
really in interesting time
in history at the moment.
Um.
I think we've gone, Bitcoin's
gone through this period
of time where in the early
days it was a lot of like
technical people that owned it.
And now, you know, you're getting
to this point where there's
institutional people that,
the institutional investors
that are now interested in it.
And so I think with that
will become, Bitcoin will
become more, more mainstream
in the, in the years ahead.
And so it's, yeah, I think this
is definitely a very interesting,
exciting time and particularly,
you know, that's why you're
seeing a lot of these bitcoin
treasury businesses coming
about because the mainstream is
now wanting to be able to get
some sort of Bitcoin exposure.
Um, and so yeah, it's, it's gonna
be a, an exciting, uh, years ahead
as this, uh, starts to play out.
And we'll see how the world
transitions from the, the fiat
world into the Bitcoin world.
Absolutely.
This reminds me of, um, the
chart by BlackRock's a TF
launch, comparing it to gold.
Like you just see, like
Yeah, right.
I haven't seen that chart.
That's, that would be
a, a good chart to see.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
It's like they, uh, yeah.
I, I'll send it to you as
soon as we end this call.
It's a really good chart.
You just see adoption like what,
what Bitcoin took 12 months to do.
It took gold et TF
five years, like,
wow.
Yeah.
No, it makes sense.
Makes total sense.
Yeah.
All right.
Thanks for your time, Steve.
Thanks.
Yeah, thanks for having me.