1 00:00:11,250 --> 00:00:12,500 Joining me today is 2 00:00:12,500 --> 00:00:14,791 Steve Orenstein, the CEO 3 00:00:14,791 --> 00:00:16,208 of Locate Technologies. 4 00:00:16,500 --> 00:00:18,291 Locate is the first company in 5 00:00:18,291 --> 00:00:21,083 Australia to put Bitcoin on their, 6 00:00:21,166 --> 00:00:23,250 um, treasurer on their balance, 7 00:00:23,458 --> 00:00:24,958 and it's the first company that 8 00:00:24,958 --> 00:00:26,791 is a SX listed, so listed on the 9 00:00:26,791 --> 00:00:28,958 Australian Stock Exchange, which 10 00:00:28,958 --> 00:00:30,500 you know, is, is pretty special. 11 00:00:30,500 --> 00:00:31,833 I'm very happy to have 12 00:00:31,833 --> 00:00:32,916 you here today with us. 13 00:00:32,916 --> 00:00:33,416 Steve. 14 00:00:33,416 --> 00:00:34,166 Welcome. 15 00:00:34,500 --> 00:00:34,750 Thanks, Andrea. 16 00:00:34,750 --> 00:00:35,458 Great to be here. 17 00:00:36,875 --> 00:00:37,125 Yay. 18 00:00:38,041 --> 00:00:40,125 Um, I wanted to start basically 19 00:00:40,125 --> 00:00:41,625 chronologically with your journey. 20 00:00:41,625 --> 00:00:43,916 So how long has Locate 21 00:00:44,041 --> 00:00:45,958 essentially been an operation for? 22 00:00:46,916 --> 00:00:47,250 Yeah. 23 00:00:47,333 --> 00:00:50,666 Um, so originally started in 2014. 24 00:00:50,875 --> 00:00:54,208 Um, I had just previously, I was 25 00:00:54,208 --> 00:00:55,166 running another business actually 26 00:00:55,166 --> 00:00:56,208 before this called Connect to 27 00:00:56,208 --> 00:00:58,166 Field, which was a job management 28 00:00:58,166 --> 00:00:59,541 and scheduling application. 29 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:02,875 Uh, at the end of 2013, it got 30 00:01:02,875 --> 00:01:04,375 acquired by a company outta the us. 31 00:01:04,833 --> 00:01:06,291 Um, and so I worked with them 32 00:01:06,291 --> 00:01:08,125 through the post acquisition, 33 00:01:08,208 --> 00:01:10,750 um, process, and then I was sort 34 00:01:10,750 --> 00:01:12,000 of, you know, looking for what 35 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:13,916 next to do and sort of saw this 36 00:01:13,916 --> 00:01:15,541 opportunity in the logistics space. 37 00:01:15,583 --> 00:01:17,166 And that was the start of, of 38 00:01:17,166 --> 00:01:18,666 building the Zoom to you business. 39 00:01:18,750 --> 00:01:20,875 Um, and so that was essentially 40 00:01:20,875 --> 00:01:22,666 a, a marketplace, um, designed 41 00:01:22,666 --> 00:01:24,208 for same day delivery, 42 00:01:24,291 --> 00:01:25,250 um, across Australia. 43 00:01:25,750 --> 00:01:28,041 Uh, and so independent drivers 44 00:01:28,041 --> 00:01:29,416 having the ability to, um, 45 00:01:29,458 --> 00:01:30,750 do deliveries and doing 46 00:01:30,750 --> 00:01:31,541 that, you know, whether it's 47 00:01:31,541 --> 00:01:32,458 the same day or whether in 48 00:01:32,458 --> 00:01:33,833 three hours or, or one hour. 49 00:01:34,375 --> 00:01:36,208 Um, and yeah, that sort of grew 50 00:01:36,208 --> 00:01:38,416 from there into a locate to your 51 00:01:38,416 --> 00:01:40,458 product, which is, um, essentially 52 00:01:40,458 --> 00:01:41,416 taking on the technology that 53 00:01:41,416 --> 00:01:42,458 we built for Zoom two, but 54 00:01:42,458 --> 00:01:44,000 building it into its own product. 55 00:01:44,375 --> 00:01:45,958 And so for companies that have 56 00:01:45,958 --> 00:01:46,958 their own fleet of their own 57 00:01:46,958 --> 00:01:48,291 drivers can use our software. 58 00:01:48,750 --> 00:01:50,708 Um, to be able to manage their 59 00:01:50,708 --> 00:01:52,791 own fleet and provide customers 60 00:01:52,791 --> 00:01:54,208 ultimately with a, a really 61 00:01:54,208 --> 00:01:56,041 nice, uh, customer experience. 62 00:01:56,583 --> 00:01:58,541 Uh, and so that led us to 63 00:01:58,583 --> 00:02:01,541 listing on the A SX, um, in 21. 64 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:02,916 Uh, we're in the middle of 65 00:02:02,916 --> 00:02:04,500 lockdown lockdown in September 66 00:02:04,500 --> 00:02:06,333 in Sydney, and, um, the company 67 00:02:06,333 --> 00:02:08,041 yeah, listed on onto the As SX. 68 00:02:09,500 --> 00:02:10,041 Nice. 69 00:02:10,041 --> 00:02:10,583 Awesome. 70 00:02:10,583 --> 00:02:12,333 And, and how did, um, how did 71 00:02:12,333 --> 00:02:14,416 you find that, I guess the 72 00:02:14,416 --> 00:02:16,041 pandemic impacted the business? 73 00:02:16,041 --> 00:02:16,625 Did you get more 74 00:02:16,625 --> 00:02:18,708 business as a result? 75 00:02:18,833 --> 00:02:20,333 Yeah, I mean, for us it 76 00:02:20,333 --> 00:02:21,583 was quite a positive thing 77 00:02:21,583 --> 00:02:23,208 because we were in logistics. 78 00:02:23,291 --> 00:02:24,250 Um, a lot of people 79 00:02:24,250 --> 00:02:25,250 were working from home. 80 00:02:25,666 --> 00:02:27,291 Um, and so there was a lot 81 00:02:27,291 --> 00:02:28,375 of increased volume across 82 00:02:28,375 --> 00:02:30,166 our Zoom two U network, um, 83 00:02:30,166 --> 00:02:30,958 and then interest in our 84 00:02:30,958 --> 00:02:31,916 locate to your business. 85 00:02:31,916 --> 00:02:33,000 So yeah, it was, it was 86 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:34,208 a really positive thing, 87 00:02:34,291 --> 00:02:35,541 um, for the business. 88 00:02:35,666 --> 00:02:38,333 Um, very busy and, um, you know, 89 00:02:38,333 --> 00:02:40,375 dealing with really increased 90 00:02:40,375 --> 00:02:42,083 demands quite, quite suddenly. 91 00:02:42,125 --> 00:02:43,208 Um, and so a lot of 92 00:02:43,250 --> 00:02:44,250 logistical challenges. 93 00:02:44,250 --> 00:02:45,250 But yeah, it, it was a really 94 00:02:45,250 --> 00:02:46,041 good time for the business. 95 00:02:46,958 --> 00:02:48,708 Yeah, I can, I can only imagine. 96 00:02:48,708 --> 00:02:50,000 I mean, exciting, but also 97 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:51,583 challenging at the same time. 98 00:02:51,791 --> 00:02:52,000 Exactly. 99 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:53,500 Um, yeah. 100 00:02:53,500 --> 00:02:55,333 Um, so I'm curious to know 101 00:02:55,375 --> 00:02:57,000 your journey into Bitcoin. 102 00:02:57,083 --> 00:02:59,250 Um, when did you first start 103 00:02:59,250 --> 00:03:00,958 even considering the idea 104 00:03:00,958 --> 00:03:02,916 of potentially adding some 105 00:03:02,916 --> 00:03:04,541 Bitcoin to your balance sheet? 106 00:03:05,500 --> 00:03:08,083 Um, so yeah, I mean, I sort of 107 00:03:08,125 --> 00:03:10,541 myself got introduced to Bitcoin 108 00:03:10,541 --> 00:03:13,333 around sort of 2017, um, and 109 00:03:13,333 --> 00:03:15,583 started buying sort of personally 110 00:03:15,625 --> 00:03:20,166 and, um, yeah, at that point, um. 111 00:03:20,583 --> 00:03:21,958 I sort of didn't really 112 00:03:21,958 --> 00:03:22,541 sort of understand 113 00:03:22,541 --> 00:03:23,916 exactly what I was buying. 114 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:25,000 Uh, and then as sort of 115 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:26,541 time went on, I started to 116 00:03:26,541 --> 00:03:27,416 understand, you know, what is 117 00:03:27,416 --> 00:03:29,000 money and then what actually 118 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:30,208 what Bitcoin actually meant. 119 00:03:30,583 --> 00:03:33,041 Um, and then I started looking 120 00:03:33,041 --> 00:03:34,000 at sort of companies like 121 00:03:34,250 --> 00:03:36,625 strategy in the us um, and seeing 122 00:03:36,625 --> 00:03:37,708 what they, they were doing. 123 00:03:37,708 --> 00:03:38,208 And then looking at 124 00:03:38,208 --> 00:03:39,041 like Meta Planet. 125 00:03:39,333 --> 00:03:40,541 And then I'm like, well, 126 00:03:40,625 --> 00:03:41,333 I've got an Australian 127 00:03:41,333 --> 00:03:42,791 company that's listed. 128 00:03:43,041 --> 00:03:43,541 I can be doing the 129 00:03:43,541 --> 00:03:44,500 exact same thing. 130 00:03:44,625 --> 00:03:46,541 And um, so it was the middle 131 00:03:46,541 --> 00:03:49,500 of last year that I decided 132 00:03:49,500 --> 00:03:50,791 to, to then present this, 133 00:03:50,791 --> 00:03:52,083 this concept to the board. 134 00:03:52,541 --> 00:03:53,500 And, um, that was the, 135 00:03:53,708 --> 00:03:54,625 the start of the journey. 136 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:57,291 Sounds so exciting. 137 00:03:57,333 --> 00:03:58,666 I would love to know how the 138 00:03:58,666 --> 00:04:00,791 conversation with the board went. 139 00:04:02,291 --> 00:04:03,958 Um, look, it was interesting 140 00:04:03,958 --> 00:04:05,833 'cause I didn't warn anyone 141 00:04:05,875 --> 00:04:07,166 that I was gonna do this, and 142 00:04:07,166 --> 00:04:09,375 I don't even think I realized 143 00:04:09,791 --> 00:04:11,708 what I was getting myself into. 144 00:04:11,708 --> 00:04:13,875 I sort of thought, well, I was so 145 00:04:13,875 --> 00:04:15,125 convinced on the Bitcoin strategy 146 00:04:15,166 --> 00:04:16,333 and the strategy of coming. 147 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:17,875 Um, and doing it 148 00:04:17,875 --> 00:04:19,000 inside of our company. 149 00:04:19,375 --> 00:04:21,291 And I thought, you know, 150 00:04:21,291 --> 00:04:22,208 and everyone would be on, 151 00:04:22,250 --> 00:04:23,125 on the same page and, and 152 00:04:23,125 --> 00:04:24,291 generally they, they were. 153 00:04:24,666 --> 00:04:26,791 Um, but it required a lot 154 00:04:26,791 --> 00:04:28,833 of going back to the basics. 155 00:04:28,916 --> 00:04:30,875 And, and I always find sort of 156 00:04:30,875 --> 00:04:32,250 going back and saying, okay, well 157 00:04:32,333 --> 00:04:33,666 what, what is money and what do 158 00:04:33,666 --> 00:04:35,250 we believe that money is today? 159 00:04:35,250 --> 00:04:37,416 And is it the physical $10 160 00:04:37,416 --> 00:04:38,416 note that we walk around 161 00:04:38,416 --> 00:04:40,375 with or is it something else? 162 00:04:40,375 --> 00:04:42,250 And then when you start that, 163 00:04:42,250 --> 00:04:44,333 that conversation, it starts 164 00:04:44,333 --> 00:04:45,416 people sort of, well, I've 165 00:04:45,416 --> 00:04:46,208 never thought about that. 166 00:04:46,208 --> 00:04:47,000 I've just always 167 00:04:47,041 --> 00:04:47,750 thought about the money. 168 00:04:47,750 --> 00:04:48,958 Is the money that, you know, that 169 00:04:48,958 --> 00:04:50,666 we have in the note or the money 170 00:04:50,666 --> 00:04:51,666 that sits in our bank account. 171 00:04:52,125 --> 00:04:53,416 And then you start questioning, 172 00:04:53,416 --> 00:04:54,583 well, how much of that money is 173 00:04:54,583 --> 00:04:55,625 actually sitting in the bank? 174 00:04:55,625 --> 00:04:57,041 And all those types of questions 175 00:04:57,041 --> 00:04:58,666 around what actually is money? 176 00:04:58,666 --> 00:05:00,291 And then that then goes into, 177 00:05:00,291 --> 00:05:01,375 okay, well this is what Bitcoin 178 00:05:01,375 --> 00:05:02,916 is and these are the, the, 179 00:05:02,916 --> 00:05:04,250 the features of, of Bitcoin 180 00:05:04,250 --> 00:05:05,375 and how does that relate? 181 00:05:05,375 --> 00:05:07,916 And yeah, I found that process 182 00:05:07,916 --> 00:05:09,583 was, was very useful and for 183 00:05:09,583 --> 00:05:11,083 them to sort of start to, to get 184 00:05:11,083 --> 00:05:12,500 their head around it and, um. 185 00:05:13,083 --> 00:05:14,208 Yeah, and ultimately the board was 186 00:05:14,208 --> 00:05:16,083 very supportive of, of this, this 187 00:05:16,125 --> 00:05:17,833 change to the, to the business. 188 00:05:18,166 --> 00:05:21,083 Um, and I guess the first stage 189 00:05:21,083 --> 00:05:22,916 was, you know, go out and speak to 190 00:05:22,958 --> 00:05:24,708 some ex existing investors and some 191 00:05:24,708 --> 00:05:26,250 of our larger investors and see 192 00:05:26,250 --> 00:05:27,541 what sort of reaction we'll get. 193 00:05:28,125 --> 00:05:29,458 Um, and that was an 194 00:05:29,458 --> 00:05:30,666 interesting process. 195 00:05:30,750 --> 00:05:33,583 And yeah, and then go to the, 196 00:05:33,833 --> 00:05:35,375 the A SX and talk to the As SX 197 00:05:35,375 --> 00:05:36,291 around, you know, this is what 198 00:05:36,291 --> 00:05:37,541 we're planning on doing, and 199 00:05:37,541 --> 00:05:38,833 see what their reaction was 200 00:05:38,833 --> 00:05:40,041 was gonna be to, to doing that. 201 00:05:41,708 --> 00:05:43,291 So yeah, it sounds like quite 202 00:05:43,291 --> 00:05:45,625 a long journey to get there. 203 00:05:45,666 --> 00:05:47,916 Um, and, and what I love about 204 00:05:47,916 --> 00:05:49,291 it is that you basically had 205 00:05:49,291 --> 00:05:50,791 to like build this story and 206 00:05:50,791 --> 00:05:52,583 narrative from the ground up. 207 00:05:52,625 --> 00:05:53,625 Like you said, starting 208 00:05:53,625 --> 00:05:54,375 with the basics. 209 00:05:54,375 --> 00:05:55,291 What is money? 210 00:05:55,750 --> 00:05:57,291 Zooming out, understanding the 211 00:05:57,291 --> 00:05:59,375 entire history of money, you know, 212 00:05:59,375 --> 00:06:01,125 what has what got us here today and 213 00:06:01,125 --> 00:06:02,916 where are we potentially headed? 214 00:06:02,916 --> 00:06:04,125 So yeah, it's very 215 00:06:04,125 --> 00:06:05,458 interesting to hear that. 216 00:06:05,458 --> 00:06:08,375 So out of the, the board. 217 00:06:08,750 --> 00:06:11,375 The investors, and, sorry, 218 00:06:11,500 --> 00:06:13,000 the third group was, um, 219 00:06:13,250 --> 00:06:13,875 was the Asex. 220 00:06:14,708 --> 00:06:15,166 Yes. 221 00:06:15,250 --> 00:06:17,041 Who would you say was the 222 00:06:17,041 --> 00:06:18,583 hardest one to sort of 223 00:06:18,583 --> 00:06:21,708 win over or to convince? 224 00:06:21,708 --> 00:06:24,791 Um, yeah, look, probably there was 225 00:06:24,791 --> 00:06:26,458 some investors which were like, 226 00:06:26,666 --> 00:06:28,333 I don't understand this Steve and 227 00:06:28,375 --> 00:06:29,375 I don't understand Bitcoin, but 228 00:06:29,375 --> 00:06:30,791 I, but I really back you and, and 229 00:06:30,791 --> 00:06:32,916 trust your, your guidance on this. 230 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:35,583 Um, there was one or two 231 00:06:35,583 --> 00:06:39,375 investors who, you know, had, 232 00:06:39,666 --> 00:06:40,750 you know, didn't un, didn't 233 00:06:40,750 --> 00:06:41,833 really understand Bitcoin and 234 00:06:41,833 --> 00:06:42,708 didn't have any understanding of 235 00:06:42,708 --> 00:06:44,333 Bitcoin and were really against 236 00:06:44,333 --> 00:06:45,750 this, this particular strategy. 237 00:06:46,166 --> 00:06:47,916 Um, and in fact I had one 238 00:06:47,916 --> 00:06:50,291 investor who was, was very, 239 00:06:50,291 --> 00:06:52,000 very disgruntled about this 240 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:53,625 particular, um, strategy. 241 00:06:53,666 --> 00:06:55,125 And I think most of that came from. 242 00:06:55,958 --> 00:06:58,250 Fear and fear of not understanding. 243 00:06:58,291 --> 00:07:00,666 And, you know, it's Bitcoin is 244 00:07:00,666 --> 00:07:02,041 a, is i, I think is a complex 245 00:07:02,041 --> 00:07:03,583 topic because there's a bunch 246 00:07:03,583 --> 00:07:04,333 of technology that you've 247 00:07:04,333 --> 00:07:05,208 gotta understand about it. 248 00:07:05,208 --> 00:07:05,708 And then you've also 249 00:07:05,708 --> 00:07:06,833 gotta understand existing 250 00:07:06,833 --> 00:07:08,208 monetary policies and, and 251 00:07:08,208 --> 00:07:09,250 how that actually works. 252 00:07:09,250 --> 00:07:11,125 And so it's not something that you 253 00:07:11,125 --> 00:07:12,500 can necessarily pick up in a, in 254 00:07:12,500 --> 00:07:14,333 a relatively short period of time. 255 00:07:14,875 --> 00:07:18,083 Um, and so, yeah, so over time 256 00:07:18,083 --> 00:07:19,041 I think it was just continuing 257 00:07:19,041 --> 00:07:20,791 those conversations and, and not 258 00:07:20,791 --> 00:07:21,750 just having one conversation, 259 00:07:21,750 --> 00:07:23,208 having multiple conversations and 260 00:07:23,208 --> 00:07:24,875 sort of getting them up to speed, 261 00:07:25,208 --> 00:07:27,041 um, and answering the questions 262 00:07:27,041 --> 00:07:28,208 that they might have, or concerns 263 00:07:28,208 --> 00:07:29,375 that they might have as to, 264 00:07:29,666 --> 00:07:30,583 you know, what does this mean? 265 00:07:30,583 --> 00:07:32,041 And, um, and what does this 266 00:07:32,041 --> 00:07:33,500 mean to the existing business 267 00:07:33,583 --> 00:07:34,250 that we're forgetting about 268 00:07:34,250 --> 00:07:35,250 what we're currently building? 269 00:07:35,250 --> 00:07:36,833 And sort of reiterating, no, 270 00:07:36,833 --> 00:07:38,458 this is, this is a complimentary 271 00:07:38,458 --> 00:07:39,583 to what we're actually building 272 00:07:39,583 --> 00:07:40,666 as part of our core business. 273 00:07:40,666 --> 00:07:41,958 And in a really good way of 274 00:07:41,958 --> 00:07:43,291 being able to capitalize the 275 00:07:43,291 --> 00:07:44,291 business into the future. 276 00:07:45,666 --> 00:07:46,208 Yeah. 277 00:07:46,416 --> 00:07:46,833 Yeah. 278 00:07:46,833 --> 00:07:48,041 I, I love that story. 279 00:07:48,041 --> 00:07:50,083 And is there a particular sort of 280 00:07:50,500 --> 00:07:53,083 person, individual, um, that went 281 00:07:53,083 --> 00:07:54,875 from like Zero to Hero when it 282 00:07:54,875 --> 00:07:56,250 comes to Bitcoin that you were like 283 00:07:56,250 --> 00:07:58,541 really pleasantly surprised with? 284 00:07:58,958 --> 00:08:00,708 Yeah, I mean, I think all of 285 00:08:00,708 --> 00:08:02,333 those investors who were sort 286 00:08:02,333 --> 00:08:05,625 of concerned or anti it, um, 287 00:08:05,708 --> 00:08:06,875 yeah, have now come along 288 00:08:06,875 --> 00:08:07,958 and, and spent a lot of time 289 00:08:07,958 --> 00:08:09,250 themselves getting up to speed 290 00:08:09,583 --> 00:08:11,458 and, um, and, and turned around. 291 00:08:11,458 --> 00:08:13,000 And so, yeah, there's no, 292 00:08:13,083 --> 00:08:14,333 there's no investor today that 293 00:08:14,333 --> 00:08:16,916 is, that is on our register 294 00:08:16,916 --> 00:08:18,375 stay that's anti this, this 295 00:08:18,375 --> 00:08:19,208 what we're actually doing. 296 00:08:19,208 --> 00:08:20,416 I think they're all very supportive 297 00:08:20,416 --> 00:08:23,500 and, um, yeah, and I think see 298 00:08:23,500 --> 00:08:24,375 that there's a, there's a really 299 00:08:24,375 --> 00:08:25,333 good future in, in what we're 300 00:08:25,333 --> 00:08:26,458 doing in, in building a Bitcoin 301 00:08:26,458 --> 00:08:28,125 treasury business, uh, in the 302 00:08:28,125 --> 00:08:29,291 Australian and, and now, you 303 00:08:29,291 --> 00:08:30,083 know, the New Zealand market. 304 00:08:31,500 --> 00:08:31,875 Yeah. 305 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:33,375 Yeah, that sounds awesome. 306 00:08:33,375 --> 00:08:35,458 And last time I checked, which 307 00:08:35,541 --> 00:08:37,333 was a while ago now, was you had 308 00:08:37,333 --> 00:08:40,083 about 10 Bitcoin about, correct? 309 00:08:40,083 --> 00:08:40,291 Yeah. 310 00:08:40,291 --> 00:08:42,291 So we've got about, uh, 1212 now. 311 00:08:42,541 --> 00:08:43,041 Um, oh 312 00:08:43,041 --> 00:08:43,458 wow. 313 00:08:44,125 --> 00:08:45,875 So we added a couple more, uh, 314 00:08:45,875 --> 00:08:48,000 recently, but, um, yeah's, we've 315 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:49,000 got 12 on the balance sheet. 316 00:08:50,375 --> 00:08:50,916 Lovely, lovely. 317 00:08:51,333 --> 00:08:52,958 And I saw that recently as well. 318 00:08:52,958 --> 00:08:55,166 You traveled, uh, to New York. 319 00:08:55,166 --> 00:08:56,083 I wanna hear a little bit 320 00:08:56,083 --> 00:08:57,291 more about that trip because 321 00:08:57,291 --> 00:08:59,333 I saw some photos, um, coming 322 00:08:59,333 --> 00:09:01,000 up on Twitter of like Michael 323 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:02,416 Sailor sitting in front of you. 324 00:09:02,416 --> 00:09:02,458 That's right. 325 00:09:02,458 --> 00:09:04,166 You get a chance to speak to him. 326 00:09:05,041 --> 00:09:06,416 No, unfortunately, I, I didn't 327 00:09:06,416 --> 00:09:07,708 get a chance to speak with him. 328 00:09:07,958 --> 00:09:09,583 Um, but I got, I got to listen 329 00:09:09,583 --> 00:09:12,041 to, yeah, him, him speak at, um, 330 00:09:12,375 --> 00:09:13,500 you know, throughout the day. 331 00:09:13,791 --> 00:09:15,083 Um, and just hearing, I guess 332 00:09:15,083 --> 00:09:16,916 his insights into what he's been 333 00:09:16,916 --> 00:09:19,333 building inside of strategy, um, 334 00:09:19,333 --> 00:09:20,625 and how they're going through, 335 00:09:20,791 --> 00:09:22,625 um, you know, the, the building of 336 00:09:22,625 --> 00:09:24,208 their credit products, uh, and, and 337 00:09:24,208 --> 00:09:25,916 what's what's taken to, to do that. 338 00:09:26,333 --> 00:09:27,208 And so, yeah, it was, it was 339 00:09:27,208 --> 00:09:28,625 a really interesting day. 340 00:09:28,916 --> 00:09:30,166 Um, but I think what was also. 341 00:09:30,583 --> 00:09:34,000 Quite cool to see was that him 342 00:09:34,250 --> 00:09:35,375 sitting in the crowd and listening 343 00:09:35,375 --> 00:09:37,000 to other people speak as well. 344 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:37,958 Um, he just didn't sit 345 00:09:37,958 --> 00:09:38,875 in the background, but 346 00:09:38,875 --> 00:09:39,875 he actually came and sat. 347 00:09:40,333 --> 00:09:41,500 Um, and you saw in that photo 348 00:09:41,500 --> 00:09:42,666 he was sitting, you know, a, a 349 00:09:42,666 --> 00:09:44,083 few, few steps in front of me. 350 00:09:45,625 --> 00:09:45,750 Yeah. 351 00:09:45,833 --> 00:09:47,291 And just for context, what, 352 00:09:47,291 --> 00:09:49,041 what was the actual event? 353 00:09:49,666 --> 00:09:50,458 Uh, so it was a, it was a 354 00:09:50,500 --> 00:09:52,208 Bitcoin treasury, uh, conference. 355 00:09:52,416 --> 00:09:53,083 Um, oh, nice. 356 00:09:53,291 --> 00:09:55,458 And yeah, it was all around, 357 00:09:55,541 --> 00:09:57,000 um, people, there were, were 358 00:09:57,125 --> 00:09:58,541 bitcoin treasury businesses. 359 00:09:58,916 --> 00:10:00,875 Um, and so you had a range of 360 00:10:00,875 --> 00:10:03,041 people from, you know, founders and 361 00:10:03,041 --> 00:10:04,875 CEOs of, of, of Bitcoin treasury 362 00:10:04,875 --> 00:10:07,166 businesses in investors, um, but 363 00:10:07,166 --> 00:10:09,333 also suppliers to Bitcoin, treasury 364 00:10:09,333 --> 00:10:11,958 businesses, so custodians, um, 365 00:10:12,041 --> 00:10:13,875 exchanges, those types of people. 366 00:10:14,708 --> 00:10:15,541 Nice, nice. 367 00:10:15,541 --> 00:10:16,541 And was it also like a 368 00:10:16,541 --> 00:10:17,625 mixture of private and 369 00:10:17,625 --> 00:10:19,333 public sector as well, or? 370 00:10:19,625 --> 00:10:22,208 Um, mostly, I mean, I guess 371 00:10:22,250 --> 00:10:23,333 most of the companies that were 372 00:10:23,333 --> 00:10:24,250 there from Bitcoin Treasury 373 00:10:24,250 --> 00:10:25,500 were mostly public companies. 374 00:10:25,500 --> 00:10:25,708 Um, mm-hmm. 375 00:10:26,166 --> 00:10:27,041 There was one or two that 376 00:10:27,041 --> 00:10:28,583 were private and then moving 377 00:10:28,583 --> 00:10:29,666 into the public markets. 378 00:10:29,666 --> 00:10:30,791 But yeah, I guess mostly in that, 379 00:10:30,833 --> 00:10:32,083 in that public market space. 380 00:10:32,916 --> 00:10:33,791 Nice, nice. 381 00:10:33,791 --> 00:10:35,208 And was there like a, an 382 00:10:35,208 --> 00:10:37,250 industry that dominated the room? 383 00:10:37,250 --> 00:10:39,166 I would assume it's always tech, 384 00:10:39,166 --> 00:10:40,916 but maybe I could be surprised. 385 00:10:42,750 --> 00:10:44,375 Nah, look, I think, um, 386 00:10:44,583 --> 00:10:45,541 yeah, most of these companies 387 00:10:45,541 --> 00:10:46,583 were all, I guess, tech, 388 00:10:46,583 --> 00:10:48,083 tech, tech based companies. 389 00:10:48,833 --> 00:10:49,000 Yeah. 390 00:10:49,041 --> 00:10:50,541 Yeah, yeah, for sure. 391 00:10:50,958 --> 00:10:53,833 And I wanna get into a little bit 392 00:10:53,833 --> 00:10:56,666 about, um, the move to New Zealand. 393 00:10:56,666 --> 00:10:58,625 So recently you guys have announced 394 00:10:58,625 --> 00:10:59,916 that you'll be moving to the 395 00:10:59,916 --> 00:11:01,625 New Zealand Stock Exchange. 396 00:11:02,208 --> 00:11:03,083 What is kind of the 397 00:11:03,083 --> 00:11:04,291 timeline on that and some 398 00:11:04,291 --> 00:11:05,750 of the reasons behind it? 399 00:11:06,875 --> 00:11:09,500 Yeah, so, um. 400 00:11:10,583 --> 00:11:11,708 I guess when we started this 401 00:11:11,708 --> 00:11:13,875 process, uh, which was January 402 00:11:13,875 --> 00:11:15,791 this year, um, we announced 403 00:11:15,791 --> 00:11:17,333 to the market that, um, we 404 00:11:17,333 --> 00:11:18,833 adopted a new treasury policy 405 00:11:18,833 --> 00:11:19,958 and that was gonna include 406 00:11:19,958 --> 00:11:21,250 Bitcoin into our balance sheet. 407 00:11:21,791 --> 00:11:24,375 And, um, we'd spoken about to 408 00:11:24,375 --> 00:11:25,500 the A SX around, this is what 409 00:11:25,500 --> 00:11:27,833 we were planning on doing, and 410 00:11:27,958 --> 00:11:29,750 we, we didn't get any sort of 411 00:11:29,750 --> 00:11:31,041 negative sort of feedback from 412 00:11:31,041 --> 00:11:32,291 them or anything that, you know, we 413 00:11:32,291 --> 00:11:33,833 should have been concerned about. 414 00:11:34,250 --> 00:11:35,458 Um, and then we started the 415 00:11:35,458 --> 00:11:37,250 process of, of buying Bitcoin and 416 00:11:37,250 --> 00:11:38,708 suddenly they started asking a 417 00:11:38,708 --> 00:11:41,250 lot of questions, um, and, and had 418 00:11:41,250 --> 00:11:43,000 some concerns around us continuing 419 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:45,000 to, to buy, um, bitcoin on, on, 420 00:11:45,125 --> 00:11:46,375 on our, on our balance sheet. 421 00:11:47,250 --> 00:11:48,666 Um, and ultimately that 422 00:11:48,666 --> 00:11:50,541 led to the A SX didn't have 423 00:11:50,541 --> 00:11:52,541 any guidance around this. 424 00:11:52,791 --> 00:11:54,500 Um, and during that process then 425 00:11:54,500 --> 00:11:55,541 they started to develop some 426 00:11:55,541 --> 00:11:57,416 guidance, um, and then started 427 00:11:57,416 --> 00:11:58,916 to look at some of the existing 428 00:11:58,916 --> 00:12:00,416 rules that existed on the A SX 429 00:12:00,416 --> 00:12:01,958 and how they interacted with 430 00:12:01,958 --> 00:12:03,500 companies that were holding, um, 431 00:12:03,583 --> 00:12:04,875 Bitcoin on their balance sheet. 432 00:12:05,375 --> 00:12:07,041 And ultimately, one of the 433 00:12:07,041 --> 00:12:08,333 rules that was gonna impact 434 00:12:08,333 --> 00:12:09,583 us into the future was. 435 00:12:09,958 --> 00:12:10,750 Um, a rule called 436 00:12:10,750 --> 00:12:11,708 the cash box rule. 437 00:12:11,791 --> 00:12:12,458 Um, I think it was 438 00:12:12,458 --> 00:12:14,166 designed in the 1980s. 439 00:12:14,500 --> 00:12:16,541 Uh, and it's essentially designed 440 00:12:16,791 --> 00:12:18,333 for companies to not hold large 441 00:12:18,333 --> 00:12:19,750 amounts of cash on their balance 442 00:12:19,750 --> 00:12:22,333 sheet or just to be a, a, a shell 443 00:12:22,333 --> 00:12:24,000 that holds large amounts of cash. 444 00:12:24,458 --> 00:12:27,416 Um, and yeah, we were, we were 445 00:12:27,416 --> 00:12:29,291 going to, if we kept on buying 446 00:12:29,291 --> 00:12:30,583 Bitcoin into the future, we would 447 00:12:30,583 --> 00:12:32,208 be breaching this particular rule. 448 00:12:32,583 --> 00:12:34,291 Um, and so that means that more 449 00:12:34,291 --> 00:12:36,375 than 50% of your company's assets 450 00:12:36,666 --> 00:12:39,041 were being held in, in, uh, cash or 451 00:12:39,041 --> 00:12:40,750 cash alike, and they were deeming 452 00:12:40,750 --> 00:12:42,583 Bitcoin to be cash, cash alike. 453 00:12:43,208 --> 00:12:45,708 Um, and so yeah, that 454 00:12:45,708 --> 00:12:47,166 was their interpretation. 455 00:12:47,500 --> 00:12:50,416 Um, and yeah, that wasn't really 456 00:12:50,541 --> 00:12:52,750 much that we could do to continue 457 00:12:52,750 --> 00:12:53,708 to be able to keep on buying 458 00:12:53,708 --> 00:12:55,541 Bitcoin, um, on our balance sheet. 459 00:12:55,541 --> 00:12:58,208 And yeah, I guess we, our 460 00:12:58,208 --> 00:12:59,708 strategy is to, to, to 461 00:12:59,750 --> 00:13:00,458 keep on buying Bitcoin. 462 00:13:00,875 --> 00:13:02,625 We see that it's, you know, a 463 00:13:02,625 --> 00:13:04,875 great store of, um, sort of wealth 464 00:13:04,875 --> 00:13:06,375 into the future and, you know, 465 00:13:06,375 --> 00:13:07,791 highly likely gonna be the currency 466 00:13:07,791 --> 00:13:08,791 of the world in the future. 467 00:13:09,291 --> 00:13:11,375 Uh, and so we want to, you know, 468 00:13:11,458 --> 00:13:12,416 build our balance sheet with, 469 00:13:12,416 --> 00:13:13,708 with large amounts of Bitcoin. 470 00:13:14,125 --> 00:13:15,583 Um, and that simply is just not, 471 00:13:15,583 --> 00:13:17,333 not possible on the A SX, um, 472 00:13:17,333 --> 00:13:18,916 in, based on the current rules. 473 00:13:19,791 --> 00:13:23,208 Um, and so yeah, that then led to, 474 00:13:23,625 --> 00:13:26,541 um, me suddenly going, okay, well 475 00:13:26,625 --> 00:13:28,166 I need to, I still wanna do this, 476 00:13:28,208 --> 00:13:30,041 um, but I've gotta find a solution 477 00:13:30,291 --> 00:13:31,250 and trying to figure out what 478 00:13:31,250 --> 00:13:32,833 that best solution was gonna be. 479 00:13:32,875 --> 00:13:35,291 Um, and we went round looking at 480 00:13:35,291 --> 00:13:36,333 different exchanges around the 481 00:13:36,333 --> 00:13:38,625 world, um, majority of exchanges. 482 00:13:38,666 --> 00:13:39,416 In fact, I didn't find 483 00:13:39,416 --> 00:13:40,500 another exchange that had 484 00:13:40,791 --> 00:13:42,125 this same cash box rule. 485 00:13:42,208 --> 00:13:43,500 Um, so the cash box rule only 486 00:13:43,500 --> 00:13:45,208 existed on the A SX and didn't 487 00:13:45,250 --> 00:13:46,916 exist on all these other exchanges. 488 00:13:47,500 --> 00:13:48,666 Um, and so there was 489 00:13:48,666 --> 00:13:49,500 numerous exchanges that 490 00:13:49,500 --> 00:13:50,333 we could have moved to. 491 00:13:50,666 --> 00:13:52,250 Um, and then it came back to, 492 00:13:52,333 --> 00:13:53,791 okay, which exchange is gonna be 493 00:13:53,791 --> 00:13:55,166 the quickest for us to actually 494 00:13:55,166 --> 00:13:56,666 move to, and the easiest, 495 00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:58,458 um, process to go through. 496 00:13:58,916 --> 00:14:00,500 Um, and it's a complicated process. 497 00:14:00,500 --> 00:14:01,333 There's a, there's a lot 498 00:14:01,333 --> 00:14:02,416 of moving parts to it. 499 00:14:02,500 --> 00:14:04,833 Um, there's, yeah, 500 00:14:05,083 --> 00:14:06,958 there's a lot to do. 501 00:14:06,958 --> 00:14:07,041 It. 502 00:14:08,416 --> 00:14:09,958 Our goal was to how do we 503 00:14:09,958 --> 00:14:11,750 get listed in a new market 504 00:14:11,791 --> 00:14:12,958 and can start continuing to 505 00:14:12,958 --> 00:14:14,375 actually buy Bitcoin, um, as 506 00:14:14,375 --> 00:14:15,750 quickly as we possibly can. 507 00:14:16,208 --> 00:14:17,541 Um, and so we're still going 508 00:14:17,541 --> 00:14:18,458 through that regulatory, 509 00:14:18,500 --> 00:14:20,041 uh, approval process. 510 00:14:20,083 --> 00:14:21,416 Um, there's a, a number of steps 511 00:14:21,416 --> 00:14:22,416 that we need to go through. 512 00:14:22,833 --> 00:14:25,125 Um, but yeah, I would expect that 513 00:14:25,166 --> 00:14:27,666 in the coming weeks, um, that, 514 00:14:27,708 --> 00:14:29,416 or months ahead, um, we should 515 00:14:29,416 --> 00:14:31,250 be listed on the, on the NZX. 516 00:14:31,791 --> 00:14:34,083 Um, and so we'll, we'll list as 517 00:14:34,083 --> 00:14:36,416 a, as a fresh new IPO, um, subject 518 00:14:36,416 --> 00:14:37,833 to all the regulatory approvals. 519 00:14:38,208 --> 00:14:41,250 Um, and we'll have a PDS and so, 520 00:14:41,375 --> 00:14:43,375 um, and then we'll then be in the 521 00:14:43,458 --> 00:14:44,625 ability to start being able to 522 00:14:44,625 --> 00:14:46,791 raise capital and, um, buy more 523 00:14:46,791 --> 00:14:48,458 Bitcoin as a New Zealand business. 524 00:14:48,458 --> 00:14:50,750 And then they have this process 525 00:14:50,750 --> 00:14:52,125 called a scheme of arrangements. 526 00:14:52,166 --> 00:14:54,500 And so that will enable us to move 527 00:14:54,500 --> 00:14:55,791 all the existing shareholders. 528 00:14:56,166 --> 00:14:57,458 Um, and be able to take 529 00:14:57,458 --> 00:14:58,333 their shares and move them 530 00:14:58,333 --> 00:14:59,708 into the New Zealand entity. 531 00:14:59,791 --> 00:15:00,875 Um, and essentially where they 532 00:15:00,875 --> 00:15:02,666 have shares, um, in the New 533 00:15:02,666 --> 00:15:04,083 Zealand, New Zealand company. 534 00:15:04,333 --> 00:15:05,375 And that will, that will probably 535 00:15:05,375 --> 00:15:07,041 take us through to the end of 536 00:15:07,041 --> 00:15:08,375 November, early December, until 537 00:15:08,375 --> 00:15:09,916 that process actually completes. 538 00:15:10,208 --> 00:15:13,416 So lots of, uh, fun legal work. 539 00:15:13,416 --> 00:15:14,083 And so my 540 00:15:14,375 --> 00:15:16,416 CFO is, uh, ridiculously 541 00:15:16,416 --> 00:15:17,458 busy at the moment. 542 00:15:17,458 --> 00:15:19,416 And, um, as are, as are all 543 00:15:19,416 --> 00:15:20,458 the lawyers, uh, working 544 00:15:20,458 --> 00:15:21,458 on the, the transaction. 545 00:15:22,250 --> 00:15:22,583 Yep. 546 00:15:22,708 --> 00:15:23,708 I can only imagine. 547 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:25,833 And like as part of that assessment 548 00:15:25,833 --> 00:15:27,833 that you did for moving to I guess 549 00:15:27,833 --> 00:15:29,291 a different country or a different 550 00:15:29,291 --> 00:15:31,083 jurisdiction, did you also have to 551 00:15:31,083 --> 00:15:33,458 look at like, uh, I guess adjacent, 552 00:15:33,541 --> 00:15:36,958 um, regulations in terms of how 553 00:15:36,958 --> 00:15:38,708 you might be impacted in purchasing 554 00:15:38,708 --> 00:15:40,208 in that particular country or, 555 00:15:40,500 --> 00:15:42,166 I don't, I dunno what else might 556 00:15:42,166 --> 00:15:43,458 fall under, but I just feel like 557 00:15:43,500 --> 00:15:45,541 every country has very different 558 00:15:45,541 --> 00:15:47,375 regulations and Australia and New 559 00:15:47,375 --> 00:15:48,833 Zealand seem to be particularly, 560 00:15:49,291 --> 00:15:50,500 you know, behind the curve, 561 00:15:50,541 --> 00:15:52,375 obviously compared to the us. 562 00:15:52,458 --> 00:15:53,958 Yeah, I had no idea as well. 563 00:15:53,958 --> 00:15:54,833 I was very, I was, I was 564 00:15:54,833 --> 00:15:56,000 very curious to ask you 565 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:58,041 what the other, um, stock 566 00:15:58,041 --> 00:15:59,875 exchanges around the world do. 567 00:16:00,333 --> 00:16:02,083 Um, I was very surprised to 568 00:16:02,083 --> 00:16:03,875 hear that this is, that cash 569 00:16:03,875 --> 00:16:05,166 rule is particularly like 570 00:16:05,166 --> 00:16:06,541 quite unique to Australia. 571 00:16:06,541 --> 00:16:06,625 Yeah. 572 00:16:06,625 --> 00:16:08,250 Is it because of Bitcoin's 573 00:16:08,250 --> 00:16:09,833 liquidity that they're deeming 574 00:16:09,833 --> 00:16:12,000 it like a cash-like asset? 575 00:16:12,416 --> 00:16:13,000 Correct. 576 00:16:13,166 --> 00:16:13,583 Yeah. 577 00:16:13,583 --> 00:16:14,375 And so that was one of the, 578 00:16:14,375 --> 00:16:15,416 the comments that actually 579 00:16:15,416 --> 00:16:16,500 made to me was around, you 580 00:16:16,500 --> 00:16:17,750 know, they deemed that Bitcoin 581 00:16:17,750 --> 00:16:19,583 is, um, a liquid market. 582 00:16:19,583 --> 00:16:20,750 You can convert that into 583 00:16:20,750 --> 00:16:22,333 cash fairly easily, which 584 00:16:22,750 --> 00:16:23,500 I I agree with the easiest. 585 00:16:24,250 --> 00:16:25,250 Yeah, exactly. 586 00:16:25,250 --> 00:16:26,583 And you can do that, you know, 24 587 00:16:26,583 --> 00:16:28,083 hours a day, seven days a week. 588 00:16:28,500 --> 00:16:29,666 Um, yeah. 589 00:16:29,666 --> 00:16:30,708 So on that basis, yeah, I, 590 00:16:30,708 --> 00:16:31,708 I definitely agreed that 591 00:16:31,708 --> 00:16:33,333 that was, that was the case. 592 00:16:33,750 --> 00:16:36,625 Um, and I just think it's a, it's 593 00:16:36,625 --> 00:16:39,500 a, it's an unusual rule and it's 594 00:16:39,500 --> 00:16:40,958 a probably a fairly silly rule. 595 00:16:41,333 --> 00:16:44,250 Um, but yeah, and I guess, 596 00:16:44,666 --> 00:16:46,208 um, you know, I think as 597 00:16:46,250 --> 00:16:47,333 it being a regulator, it's, 598 00:16:47,333 --> 00:16:48,416 it, you've got a tough job. 599 00:16:48,500 --> 00:16:50,416 Um, things, technology 600 00:16:50,416 --> 00:16:51,500 moves and changes. 601 00:16:51,583 --> 00:16:52,583 Um, the, as SX are going 602 00:16:52,583 --> 00:16:53,791 through a number of different 603 00:16:53,791 --> 00:16:55,708 changes and this was just like 604 00:16:55,708 --> 00:16:57,583 a, another headache that they 605 00:16:57,583 --> 00:16:58,500 were having to sort of think 606 00:16:58,500 --> 00:17:00,458 about and deal with on the fly. 607 00:17:00,625 --> 00:17:02,666 And, you know, bitcoin is, is a, 608 00:17:02,666 --> 00:17:05,500 is a complex topic and so, um. 609 00:17:06,041 --> 00:17:08,000 I think sometimes it's often easier 610 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:09,750 for a regulator just to say no, 611 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:11,375 rather than actually spending 612 00:17:11,375 --> 00:17:12,833 time to actually understand it 613 00:17:12,833 --> 00:17:14,000 and then going, what does, what 614 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:15,041 does this actually mean and what 615 00:17:15,041 --> 00:17:16,958 does this mean for the country? 616 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:17,708 Um, what does this 617 00:17:17,708 --> 00:17:18,916 mean for investors? 618 00:17:19,208 --> 00:17:21,875 Uh, and, you know, what's the 619 00:17:21,875 --> 00:17:23,500 risk to investors and how does 620 00:17:23,500 --> 00:17:24,666 this compare to other risks that 621 00:17:24,708 --> 00:17:26,500 investors might be having, um, 622 00:17:26,500 --> 00:17:28,125 on other, um, investments that 623 00:17:28,125 --> 00:17:29,791 they might be making on the A SX? 624 00:17:31,041 --> 00:17:31,875 Yep, yep. 625 00:17:32,333 --> 00:17:33,750 Yeah, I'm very interested as 626 00:17:33,750 --> 00:17:36,333 well to know, I, I guess I, you 627 00:17:36,333 --> 00:17:38,166 probably won't know the answer 628 00:17:38,166 --> 00:17:39,583 to this 'cause you might be more 629 00:17:39,583 --> 00:17:41,083 like internal information, but 630 00:17:41,083 --> 00:17:43,833 I'm curious as to why that role 631 00:17:43,833 --> 00:17:45,791 would be there in the first place. 632 00:17:45,791 --> 00:17:47,875 Um, you know, even Bitcoin 633 00:17:47,875 --> 00:17:49,875 aside if it's, if it's why 634 00:17:49,958 --> 00:17:51,125 Yeah, I'm just curious. 635 00:17:51,583 --> 00:17:53,375 Yeah, I, I think this is a rule 636 00:17:53,375 --> 00:17:54,791 that's been there for a long time. 637 00:17:55,208 --> 00:17:56,666 Um, and again, I think 638 00:17:56,666 --> 00:17:57,791 it's quite difficult in 639 00:17:57,791 --> 00:17:59,250 regulated environments. 640 00:17:59,333 --> 00:18:01,041 Rules get added all the time, 641 00:18:01,291 --> 00:18:03,458 and that point in time might 642 00:18:03,458 --> 00:18:04,958 have had a particular purpose, 643 00:18:05,041 --> 00:18:06,125 then no one actually goes back 644 00:18:06,125 --> 00:18:08,125 and removes the rules, um, if 645 00:18:08,125 --> 00:18:09,916 they no, no longer required. 646 00:18:09,958 --> 00:18:11,500 And so to remove a rule, I think 647 00:18:11,500 --> 00:18:13,416 requires a group of people inside 648 00:18:13,416 --> 00:18:14,958 of an organization or business to 649 00:18:14,958 --> 00:18:16,708 then go, Hey, why is this here? 650 00:18:16,916 --> 00:18:18,333 Does this make sense today? 651 00:18:18,791 --> 00:18:21,291 Um, and or, you know, what was 652 00:18:21,291 --> 00:18:22,583 this rule designed to stop? 653 00:18:22,666 --> 00:18:24,083 And I think the rule was originally 654 00:18:24,083 --> 00:18:27,250 designed to stop, um, SPACs. 655 00:18:27,291 --> 00:18:28,916 So special purpose vehicles 656 00:18:28,916 --> 00:18:30,416 just being created, which just 657 00:18:30,416 --> 00:18:32,000 had cash in them and cash only. 658 00:18:32,458 --> 00:18:33,625 Um, and so I think that 659 00:18:33,625 --> 00:18:34,708 was the, the main sort 660 00:18:34,708 --> 00:18:36,000 of purpose originally. 661 00:18:36,416 --> 00:18:38,000 Um, but yeah, in this instance 662 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:39,750 here, something new has happened. 663 00:18:40,041 --> 00:18:41,333 There's a new technology available, 664 00:18:41,333 --> 00:18:42,250 there's a new form of money 665 00:18:42,250 --> 00:18:43,791 that's been built, and there's 666 00:18:43,791 --> 00:18:45,458 a reason why a company wants to 667 00:18:45,458 --> 00:18:46,333 hold large amounts of Bitcoin. 668 00:18:47,166 --> 00:18:49,958 Um, and so does that mean 669 00:18:49,958 --> 00:18:50,875 that that rule should apply 670 00:18:50,875 --> 00:18:51,916 to this type of company? 671 00:18:52,791 --> 00:18:54,083 That's, uh, that's 672 00:18:54,083 --> 00:18:54,666 the big question. 673 00:18:54,708 --> 00:18:54,791 Yeah. 674 00:18:55,666 --> 00:18:56,875 Yeah, yeah. 675 00:18:56,875 --> 00:18:58,333 And I, I wonder as well 676 00:18:58,333 --> 00:18:59,708 what the risks are. 677 00:18:59,708 --> 00:19:01,375 Like, forgive my ignorance, 678 00:19:01,375 --> 00:19:02,625 I should probably know this, 679 00:19:02,625 --> 00:19:04,541 but I don't look, so what, 680 00:19:04,541 --> 00:19:06,125 how would the A SX generate 681 00:19:06,125 --> 00:19:07,375 income in the first place? 682 00:19:07,375 --> 00:19:09,416 Like what is their source of money? 683 00:19:10,166 --> 00:19:11,458 Yeah, so, so companies like 684 00:19:11,458 --> 00:19:12,666 ourselves, so any company that's 685 00:19:12,666 --> 00:19:14,916 listed, um, pays listing fees. 686 00:19:15,208 --> 00:19:17,416 Um, and so yeah, they, they 687 00:19:17,458 --> 00:19:19,041 generate money from companies. 688 00:19:19,041 --> 00:19:21,166 There's, um, there used to be over 689 00:19:21,166 --> 00:19:23,166 2000 companies listed on the A SX. 690 00:19:23,416 --> 00:19:24,250 Um, there's been a number of 691 00:19:24,250 --> 00:19:25,541 companies that have de-listed, 692 00:19:25,833 --> 00:19:27,125 um, over the last few years. 693 00:19:27,125 --> 00:19:28,666 And so it's becoming more and more 694 00:19:28,666 --> 00:19:30,583 challenging for smaller companies 695 00:19:30,583 --> 00:19:32,375 to actually be listed on the A SX. 696 00:19:32,708 --> 00:19:34,500 Um, and so I think that number's 697 00:19:34,500 --> 00:19:36,166 fallen down to about 1900. 698 00:19:36,583 --> 00:19:39,041 Um, and yeah, I mean, every 699 00:19:39,041 --> 00:19:40,000 company, depending on the 700 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:41,458 size is, is, is spending 701 00:19:41,458 --> 00:19:42,375 a, a reasonable amount of 702 00:19:42,375 --> 00:19:44,375 money, um, to, to be listed. 703 00:19:44,833 --> 00:19:47,166 Uh, and I imagine they would 704 00:19:47,166 --> 00:19:49,333 also earn income through. 705 00:19:50,083 --> 00:19:51,041 You know, as, as stock is 706 00:19:51,041 --> 00:19:52,375 traded, I, I imagine they collect 707 00:19:52,375 --> 00:19:53,833 fees along that way as well. 708 00:19:53,833 --> 00:19:54,708 I'm, I'm not entirely sure, 709 00:19:54,708 --> 00:19:55,625 but definitely from listing 710 00:19:55,625 --> 00:19:56,833 fees of companies being listed. 711 00:19:57,666 --> 00:19:58,000 Yeah. 712 00:19:58,250 --> 00:19:58,541 Yeah. 713 00:19:58,583 --> 00:20:00,041 So I'm just kind of trying to think 714 00:20:00,041 --> 00:20:02,125 ahead now, the, the motivating 715 00:20:02,166 --> 00:20:04,208 factor for them to change this 716 00:20:04,208 --> 00:20:05,916 policy might be potentially 717 00:20:05,916 --> 00:20:07,500 more Australian companies be 718 00:20:07,500 --> 00:20:10,166 interested in holding Bitcoin and 719 00:20:10,208 --> 00:20:12,083 as a result, having to go to New 720 00:20:12,083 --> 00:20:13,583 Zealand and other jurisdictions 721 00:20:13,958 --> 00:20:15,458 in order to make that happen. 722 00:20:15,458 --> 00:20:17,250 But have you heard from anyone 723 00:20:17,250 --> 00:20:18,416 else, any of your colleagues 724 00:20:18,416 --> 00:20:19,416 in the industry that they're 725 00:20:19,416 --> 00:20:20,833 interested in doing the same? 726 00:20:21,041 --> 00:20:22,125 I remember last year when you 727 00:20:22,125 --> 00:20:24,083 actually listed, I found you and 728 00:20:24,083 --> 00:20:26,375 I commented on your LinkedIn post 729 00:20:26,375 --> 00:20:27,541 where you made the announcement. 730 00:20:27,541 --> 00:20:28,416 You're like, I think 731 00:20:28,416 --> 00:20:29,041 we're the first. 732 00:20:29,041 --> 00:20:29,625 I'm like, you're 733 00:20:29,625 --> 00:20:30,625 definitely the first. 734 00:20:33,375 --> 00:20:33,875 Yeah. 735 00:20:34,333 --> 00:20:36,916 Um, look, I, yeah, I haven't seen 736 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:38,750 of anyone else doing what we're 737 00:20:38,750 --> 00:20:41,291 doing and I think, um, we'll be 738 00:20:41,291 --> 00:20:42,583 the first company that's moved 739 00:20:42,583 --> 00:20:45,833 from the A SX to the NZX, um, ever. 740 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:46,333 Right. 741 00:20:46,625 --> 00:20:47,125 Um, yep. 742 00:20:47,125 --> 00:20:48,750 Yeah, usually companies 743 00:20:48,750 --> 00:20:49,541 actually go the other way. 744 00:20:49,541 --> 00:20:50,458 They migrate from the 745 00:20:50,458 --> 00:20:52,125 NZX to the, to the A SX. 746 00:20:52,375 --> 00:20:53,541 Um, so we're, we're doing, 747 00:20:53,583 --> 00:20:54,500 we're doing the opposite. 748 00:20:54,916 --> 00:20:56,250 Um, and so I think it's, yeah, 749 00:20:56,250 --> 00:20:57,416 it's a big deal for the, for the 750 00:20:57,416 --> 00:20:59,416 NZX to, to see that occurring. 751 00:20:59,833 --> 00:21:04,333 Um, and we will others follow. 752 00:21:04,666 --> 00:21:05,875 Yeah, I'm, I'm curious just 753 00:21:05,875 --> 00:21:07,166 to see, it's not a, it's not 754 00:21:07,166 --> 00:21:08,791 a simple transition and so 755 00:21:09,166 --> 00:21:10,791 it really requires a lot of 756 00:21:10,791 --> 00:21:12,375 commitment to, to this strategy. 757 00:21:12,416 --> 00:21:14,625 Um, it's expensive to move, um, 758 00:21:14,625 --> 00:21:15,791 and there's a lot of work involved 759 00:21:15,791 --> 00:21:17,541 in, in doing and quite distracting. 760 00:21:17,916 --> 00:21:20,541 Um, but yeah, when I, everyone 761 00:21:20,541 --> 00:21:21,750 I'm doing, and I've got a strategy 762 00:21:21,750 --> 00:21:22,708 I'm thinking about, okay, it's 763 00:21:22,708 --> 00:21:23,833 not just for the next year, it's 764 00:21:23,833 --> 00:21:25,916 for the next 10 years or 20 years. 765 00:21:25,916 --> 00:21:27,208 And so taking a long term view, and 766 00:21:27,208 --> 00:21:28,375 I think this, this makes sense for 767 00:21:28,375 --> 00:21:29,375 our business over the long term. 768 00:21:30,500 --> 00:21:30,875 Yeah. 769 00:21:30,916 --> 00:21:32,250 Yeah, absolutely. 770 00:21:32,541 --> 00:21:34,375 Um, it is a long-term asset, so 771 00:21:35,041 --> 00:21:36,875 it's that, that you're holding. 772 00:21:37,125 --> 00:21:38,625 Um, but now I'm curious 773 00:21:38,625 --> 00:21:39,333 to know a little bit 774 00:21:39,333 --> 00:21:40,875 about your personal story. 775 00:21:40,875 --> 00:21:42,541 So I think I've read somewhere as 776 00:21:42,541 --> 00:21:44,333 well that, you know, previously 777 00:21:44,333 --> 00:21:45,666 to, you know, when you first got 778 00:21:45,666 --> 00:21:46,916 into Bitcoin that you were also 779 00:21:46,916 --> 00:21:48,458 quite interested in Ethereum 780 00:21:48,458 --> 00:21:50,250 as well, and then you kind of 781 00:21:50,291 --> 00:21:51,666 at some point in your journey 782 00:21:51,666 --> 00:21:53,333 decided that, you know, Bitcoin's 783 00:21:53,333 --> 00:21:54,666 kind of the real deal and you're 784 00:21:54,666 --> 00:21:56,625 gonna do much better if you just 785 00:21:56,625 --> 00:21:58,208 focus on, on that single asset. 786 00:21:58,208 --> 00:22:00,208 Is that kind of what I read or 787 00:22:00,208 --> 00:22:01,791 am I just making things up here? 788 00:22:01,791 --> 00:22:01,916 Yeah, no. 789 00:22:02,291 --> 00:22:04,541 Um, I think at the time, back 790 00:22:04,541 --> 00:22:07,125 in 2017, sort of, I bought, um, 791 00:22:07,125 --> 00:22:08,250 so Bitcoin, I also bought some 792 00:22:08,250 --> 00:22:10,583 Ethereum and I really didn't know 793 00:22:10,750 --> 00:22:12,833 what I was buying at that point. 794 00:22:12,833 --> 00:22:14,083 I sort of had an idea. 795 00:22:14,416 --> 00:22:16,125 Um, and then I sort of just 796 00:22:16,125 --> 00:22:17,416 been holding both of them. 797 00:22:17,625 --> 00:22:19,291 I was, you know, overweight, like 798 00:22:19,291 --> 00:22:20,916 a, a much higher portion of, of 799 00:22:20,916 --> 00:22:22,291 Bitcoin and a small percentage of. 800 00:22:22,500 --> 00:22:23,333 Of Ethereum. 801 00:22:23,666 --> 00:22:25,083 Um, and then as my sort of 802 00:22:25,083 --> 00:22:26,875 knowledge became a lot more, um, 803 00:22:26,875 --> 00:22:28,208 in depth around Bitcoin, then I 804 00:22:28,208 --> 00:22:30,000 was like, well, yeah, I, I, I don't 805 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:31,416 need to hold Ethereum anymore. 806 00:22:31,791 --> 00:22:33,208 Um, and sold out of Ethereum 807 00:22:33,208 --> 00:22:33,916 and, and put that money, 808 00:22:33,958 --> 00:22:35,375 um, back into to Bitcoin. 809 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:37,583 Um, but yeah, so generally always 810 00:22:37,583 --> 00:22:38,916 been much higher in Bitcoin. 811 00:22:39,291 --> 00:22:40,791 Um, but yeah, I had a little 812 00:22:40,791 --> 00:22:42,208 bit of Ethereum and then yeah, 813 00:22:42,458 --> 00:22:43,916 thought, yeah, it's time to, to 814 00:22:43,916 --> 00:22:45,041 actually sell it and, and move 815 00:22:45,041 --> 00:22:46,416 that money into, into Bitcoin. 816 00:22:47,333 --> 00:22:47,583 Yep. 817 00:22:47,875 --> 00:22:48,125 Yep. 818 00:22:48,666 --> 00:22:49,875 And do you, do you remember 819 00:22:49,875 --> 00:22:52,375 what your, um, moment was 820 00:22:52,375 --> 00:22:53,791 when you, as you were learning 821 00:22:53,791 --> 00:22:55,166 about Bitcoin that you felt 822 00:22:55,166 --> 00:22:56,875 like, I really get it, this 823 00:22:56,875 --> 00:22:58,416 is something quite special. 824 00:22:58,541 --> 00:23:00,000 Um, what was your 825 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:01,000 light bulb moment? 826 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:01,583 I had a few. 827 00:23:02,166 --> 00:23:04,708 Yeah, I mean, definitely. 828 00:23:04,958 --> 00:23:09,291 Um, I think when you go from, 829 00:23:09,666 --> 00:23:11,041 you know, having Bitcoin on 830 00:23:11,041 --> 00:23:12,000 exchange and then moving it 831 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:13,708 to a cold storage wallet and 832 00:23:13,708 --> 00:23:15,500 understanding, you know, the seed 833 00:23:15,500 --> 00:23:16,875 phrase and how that can be set 834 00:23:16,875 --> 00:23:19,333 up and how you can secure it, um. 835 00:23:19,750 --> 00:23:20,750 That's, and then, and 836 00:23:20,750 --> 00:23:21,583 suddenly I'm like, holy shit. 837 00:23:21,583 --> 00:23:22,916 I'm my, I'm my own bank. 838 00:23:23,333 --> 00:23:25,333 Uh, that is, is a pretty 839 00:23:25,333 --> 00:23:27,083 interesting concept and that 840 00:23:27,083 --> 00:23:28,416 you can, you know, travel 841 00:23:28,416 --> 00:23:30,250 across the world and take 842 00:23:30,250 --> 00:23:31,500 that, take that with you. 843 00:23:31,875 --> 00:23:34,416 Um, and then as you start going 844 00:23:34,416 --> 00:23:35,875 down that rabbit hole of thinking 845 00:23:35,875 --> 00:23:37,500 about, okay, well, you know, 846 00:23:37,791 --> 00:23:39,041 what's made up of the money that's 847 00:23:39,041 --> 00:23:41,541 sitting in the bank today and 848 00:23:41,583 --> 00:23:43,500 how that can, you know, there's 849 00:23:43,500 --> 00:23:44,541 only a very small percentage 850 00:23:44,541 --> 00:23:45,625 of everyone's money actually 851 00:23:45,625 --> 00:23:46,791 sitting inside of the bank. 852 00:23:47,291 --> 00:23:48,833 Um, and the fact that money can 853 00:23:48,833 --> 00:23:51,666 be be printed, um, so easily. 854 00:23:51,666 --> 00:23:54,416 And I remember back, um, just 855 00:23:54,416 --> 00:23:56,041 as, just as before COVID sort of 856 00:23:56,041 --> 00:23:57,791 really took place, it was sort 857 00:23:57,791 --> 00:23:59,208 of in January, towards the end 858 00:23:59,208 --> 00:24:00,583 of January, I started seeing, I 859 00:24:00,583 --> 00:24:01,833 guess what was happening in China. 860 00:24:02,458 --> 00:24:03,416 And I was seeing that building all 861 00:24:03,416 --> 00:24:04,750 these hospitals, I'm like, this is 862 00:24:04,750 --> 00:24:06,333 gonna hit everywhere in the world. 863 00:24:06,750 --> 00:24:07,458 Um, and I started 864 00:24:07,458 --> 00:24:08,166 thinking about that. 865 00:24:08,500 --> 00:24:10,000 From a, from an investment 866 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:10,666 point of view, and what does 867 00:24:10,666 --> 00:24:12,125 that mean to my portfolio? 868 00:24:12,541 --> 00:24:14,083 Um, and so at the time I actually 869 00:24:14,083 --> 00:24:16,000 liquidated my portfolio into cash. 870 00:24:16,125 --> 00:24:18,291 Um, I didn't, I I, I maintained 871 00:24:18,291 --> 00:24:20,291 my Bitcoin position, um, but only 872 00:24:20,291 --> 00:24:21,291 the equities that I was holding, 873 00:24:21,291 --> 00:24:22,875 I just put that into, into cash. 874 00:24:23,375 --> 00:24:25,541 Uh, and so then the, the stock 875 00:24:25,541 --> 00:24:26,708 market crash and I was like, great. 876 00:24:26,708 --> 00:24:28,041 I made the really great decision. 877 00:24:28,041 --> 00:24:29,166 And then suddenly the, the stock 878 00:24:29,166 --> 00:24:30,458 market started to rally and I was 879 00:24:30,458 --> 00:24:31,708 like, this doesn't make sense. 880 00:24:31,708 --> 00:24:33,166 Why is this, why is this happening? 881 00:24:33,250 --> 00:24:34,333 And it was happening because all 882 00:24:34,333 --> 00:24:35,541 this money was being printed. 883 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:38,541 Um, and governments were yeah, 884 00:24:38,875 --> 00:24:41,166 producing huge amounts of capital 885 00:24:41,166 --> 00:24:43,833 into the markets to, to essentially 886 00:24:44,083 --> 00:24:46,916 create this false, um, economy that 887 00:24:46,916 --> 00:24:48,125 was happening in the stock market, 888 00:24:48,125 --> 00:24:49,708 and assets were all being inflated. 889 00:24:50,250 --> 00:24:51,958 Uh, and so yeah, then it 890 00:24:51,958 --> 00:24:53,041 gets you thinking, okay, 891 00:24:53,041 --> 00:24:54,250 well how does this all end? 892 00:24:54,250 --> 00:24:55,333 And then what does that look like? 893 00:24:55,333 --> 00:24:56,916 And the debt keeps on growing 894 00:24:56,916 --> 00:24:59,125 in the US and yeah, it always 895 00:24:59,125 --> 00:25:00,583 comes back to, to Bitcoin as 896 00:25:00,583 --> 00:25:01,833 being a really safe place to 897 00:25:01,833 --> 00:25:02,916 be, be holding your money. 898 00:25:04,625 --> 00:25:05,125 Yeah. 899 00:25:05,250 --> 00:25:05,750 Yeah. 900 00:25:05,750 --> 00:25:07,916 And, and I, I've started paying 901 00:25:07,916 --> 00:25:10,041 attention a little bit as to like 902 00:25:10,041 --> 00:25:11,958 the adoption metrics in countries 903 00:25:11,958 --> 00:25:14,250 where you experience hyperinflation 904 00:25:14,250 --> 00:25:17,666 or, uh, some political disturbance. 905 00:25:17,750 --> 00:25:18,000 Right. 906 00:25:18,083 --> 00:25:20,458 And just how fast the adoption 907 00:25:20,458 --> 00:25:22,208 in that particular country takes 908 00:25:22,208 --> 00:25:24,791 off is, is absolutely like crazy. 909 00:25:24,791 --> 00:25:25,250 And yeah. 910 00:25:25,291 --> 00:25:27,375 So now whenever I hear something 911 00:25:27,375 --> 00:25:28,291 on the news, I'm like, oh, 912 00:25:28,291 --> 00:25:29,541 yep, another country's just 913 00:25:29,541 --> 00:25:30,666 going to adopt Bitcoin. 914 00:25:30,750 --> 00:25:31,916 Like, you know, most recently 915 00:25:32,458 --> 00:25:34,916 with, um, Vietnam closing 916 00:25:34,916 --> 00:25:36,000 all those bank accounts, like 917 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,333 something like 86 million bank 918 00:25:39,333 --> 00:25:40,625 accounts closed because they 919 00:25:40,625 --> 00:25:42,333 didn't wanna do the biometric. 920 00:25:42,833 --> 00:25:44,041 That's just, that's a huge 921 00:25:44,041 --> 00:25:45,583 selling point for, for Bitcoin. 922 00:25:45,666 --> 00:25:46,333 Yeah, that's right. 923 00:25:46,333 --> 00:25:46,916 That's right. 924 00:25:47,708 --> 00:25:49,000 And yeah, I can just imagine 925 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:50,500 the next wave will happen 926 00:25:50,500 --> 00:25:52,041 in Vietnam because of that. 927 00:25:52,041 --> 00:25:52,791 Um, correct. 928 00:25:53,125 --> 00:25:54,916 So, yeah, it's very, very exciting. 929 00:25:54,958 --> 00:25:58,833 Um, but I wanted to ask you. 930 00:25:59,208 --> 00:26:00,541 Sorry, I've just lost my train of 931 00:26:00,541 --> 00:26:02,125 thought 'cause I get very excited. 932 00:26:02,583 --> 00:26:08,000 Um, so in terms of your, your 933 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:09,750 future planning for Locate 934 00:26:09,750 --> 00:26:11,125 technologies, you are just 935 00:26:11,125 --> 00:26:12,958 going to focus on Bitcoin for 936 00:26:12,958 --> 00:26:15,750 the near to long-term future? 937 00:26:16,291 --> 00:26:18,666 Yeah, I mean, um, so we'll continue 938 00:26:18,666 --> 00:26:20,000 to keep operating our existing 939 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:21,833 businesses, um, the, the both 940 00:26:21,833 --> 00:26:23,125 of the two logistics businesses. 941 00:26:23,125 --> 00:26:24,875 But in terms of our treasury, 942 00:26:24,875 --> 00:26:25,916 it's only gonna be Bitcoin 943 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:26,708 or only ever Bitcoin. 944 00:26:27,416 --> 00:26:29,750 Um, and so the goal is to, um, 945 00:26:29,750 --> 00:26:31,166 increase our Bitcoin holdings. 946 00:26:31,250 --> 00:26:32,833 Um, eventually once we have 947 00:26:32,875 --> 00:26:34,541 a certain size, uh, Bitcoin 948 00:26:34,541 --> 00:26:35,666 balance sheet, then we'll 949 00:26:35,666 --> 00:26:36,750 start thinking about offering 950 00:26:36,750 --> 00:26:38,083 some, some debt products. 951 00:26:38,375 --> 00:26:40,708 Um, and so yeah, we'll, we'll have 952 00:26:40,708 --> 00:26:42,041 that debt being backed by, uh, 953 00:26:42,208 --> 00:26:43,500 Bitcoin holdings into the future. 954 00:26:43,500 --> 00:26:45,791 And, and that is essentially, 955 00:26:45,791 --> 00:26:46,541 I guess, one of the. 956 00:26:47,666 --> 00:26:48,541 The great things about having 957 00:26:48,541 --> 00:26:49,708 a company which is different 958 00:26:49,708 --> 00:26:50,958 to an individual is that you're 959 00:26:50,958 --> 00:26:52,666 able to take your company's 960 00:26:52,666 --> 00:26:54,416 assets and then get some debt on 961 00:26:54,416 --> 00:26:56,875 top of that and using, um, the 962 00:26:56,875 --> 00:26:58,125 fiat currency to, to put that 963 00:26:58,125 --> 00:27:00,041 into, into buying more Bitcoin. 964 00:27:00,416 --> 00:27:01,708 Um, which is a great way of being 965 00:27:01,708 --> 00:27:02,791 able to getting, getting leverage 966 00:27:02,791 --> 00:27:04,708 inside of, uh, a Bitcoin position. 967 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,208 Um, very different to an individual 968 00:27:07,208 --> 00:27:08,958 taking on sort of margin type debt. 969 00:27:09,041 --> 00:27:11,333 And if the Bitcoin price fluctuates 970 00:27:11,333 --> 00:27:12,583 your mar you get a margin call 971 00:27:12,583 --> 00:27:14,833 and yeah, it becomes that, that we 972 00:27:14,833 --> 00:27:16,291 definitely, we won't be doing, but 973 00:27:16,333 --> 00:27:17,500 where you can actually take some 974 00:27:17,500 --> 00:27:19,458 long term debt type products, um, 975 00:27:19,500 --> 00:27:21,000 and putting that into Bitcoin makes 976 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:22,291 a lot of sense for, for a company. 977 00:27:22,291 --> 00:27:22,416 Yeah, 978 00:27:23,458 --> 00:27:24,416 yeah, for sure. 979 00:27:24,625 --> 00:27:25,791 Like I'm thinking I need to 980 00:27:25,791 --> 00:27:27,708 start a company for this reason. 981 00:27:29,583 --> 00:27:29,875 Yeah. 982 00:27:30,041 --> 00:27:32,125 But I'm, I'm, I'm also curious to 983 00:27:32,125 --> 00:27:34,500 know, so is locate the, a logistics 984 00:27:34,500 --> 00:27:35,791 side of the business, are you also 985 00:27:35,791 --> 00:27:37,041 operating in New Zealand or are 986 00:27:37,041 --> 00:27:38,875 you just literally taking Yeah, so, 987 00:27:40,041 --> 00:27:41,666 um, our Zoom team business just 988 00:27:41,666 --> 00:27:42,750 is in the Australia market. 989 00:27:43,125 --> 00:27:44,625 Um, the locate, uh, two 990 00:27:44,625 --> 00:27:45,791 year product, that's 991 00:27:45,791 --> 00:27:46,500 our software product. 992 00:27:46,500 --> 00:27:47,583 We sell that globally. 993 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:48,958 Um, and so we've got 994 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:49,916 yeah, customers in New 995 00:27:49,916 --> 00:27:51,500 Zealand, in the us um, and 996 00:27:51,500 --> 00:27:52,916 throughout Europe and the uk. 997 00:27:53,375 --> 00:27:54,958 Uh, and so yeah, we see 998 00:27:54,958 --> 00:27:55,916 there's a big opportunity to 999 00:27:55,916 --> 00:27:57,250 keep expanding on, on that. 1000 00:27:57,666 --> 00:27:59,791 Um, and in fact, I guess this whole 1001 00:27:59,791 --> 00:28:01,250 Bitcoin strategy has enabled us 1002 00:28:01,250 --> 00:28:02,666 to get a lot more media attention 1003 00:28:02,666 --> 00:28:04,250 around what we're doing, and 1004 00:28:04,250 --> 00:28:06,041 that's then has resulted in more 1005 00:28:06,041 --> 00:28:07,333 people knowing about our business 1006 00:28:07,333 --> 00:28:08,666 and, um, yeah, will hopefully 1007 00:28:08,666 --> 00:28:09,791 lead to, to more customers as 1008 00:28:09,791 --> 00:28:11,750 well that we can, um, yeah, 1009 00:28:11,916 --> 00:28:13,208 keep building the, the business. 1010 00:28:14,375 --> 00:28:14,708 Yeah. 1011 00:28:14,708 --> 00:28:15,208 Awesome. 1012 00:28:15,625 --> 00:28:18,458 And I also, I read on Twitter, 1013 00:28:18,500 --> 00:28:19,625 I get this where I get my 1014 00:28:19,625 --> 00:28:21,333 news from, um, that you'll 1015 00:28:21,333 --> 00:28:22,625 be doing another podcast 1016 00:28:22,625 --> 00:28:24,000 with someone from your board. 1017 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:25,958 I wanna say Matt, is his name? 1018 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:26,291 Mike? 1019 00:28:26,333 --> 00:28:26,625 Mike. 1020 00:28:26,916 --> 00:28:27,541 Mike. 1021 00:28:27,583 --> 00:28:28,083 Mike, yes. 1022 00:28:28,083 --> 00:28:28,458 Close. 1023 00:28:29,500 --> 00:28:29,916 Yep. 1024 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:31,875 And is Mike one of the people who's 1025 00:28:31,875 --> 00:28:34,458 also been recently Orange peeled 1026 00:28:35,291 --> 00:28:35,500 or? 1027 00:28:35,541 --> 00:28:36,458 Um, yeah. 1028 00:28:36,458 --> 00:28:38,083 Look, I mean, he's, he's been 1029 00:28:38,083 --> 00:28:39,458 owning Bitcoin for some time now. 1030 00:28:39,791 --> 00:28:40,208 Um, yeah. 1031 00:28:40,208 --> 00:28:41,666 And so I think he. 1032 00:28:42,250 --> 00:28:44,666 It was, yeah, it was, it was like, 1033 00:28:44,666 --> 00:28:45,416 it was something that he already 1034 00:28:45,416 --> 00:28:47,208 understood, um, when I came and 1035 00:28:47,208 --> 00:28:50,375 pitched to the board and, um, yeah, 1036 00:28:50,375 --> 00:28:51,666 I think, you know, had some Bitcoin 1037 00:28:51,666 --> 00:28:53,375 himself, but then, you know, 1038 00:28:53,583 --> 00:28:55,166 looking at how we, how we did this 1039 00:28:55,166 --> 00:28:56,333 inside of the company and so quite 1040 00:28:56,333 --> 00:28:57,625 supportive on, on the strategy. 1041 00:28:58,208 --> 00:28:58,875 Um, so yeah. 1042 00:28:58,875 --> 00:29:00,416 So that's, so that should be good. 1043 00:29:00,416 --> 00:29:01,000 I think we're, we're 1044 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:01,666 doing that tomorrow. 1045 00:29:02,583 --> 00:29:03,125 Nice. 1046 00:29:03,125 --> 00:29:03,458 Nice. 1047 00:29:03,458 --> 00:29:04,875 Yeah, I'm gonna watch that. 1048 00:29:04,875 --> 00:29:05,958 That's going to be awesome. 1049 00:29:05,958 --> 00:29:06,875 It's really nice. 1050 00:29:06,875 --> 00:29:08,708 It's really nice to sort of see 1051 00:29:08,708 --> 00:29:10,250 these changes slowly starting 1052 00:29:10,250 --> 00:29:12,583 to, you know, grow in Australia 1053 00:29:12,583 --> 00:29:14,833 and, and, and take root and Yeah. 1054 00:29:14,833 --> 00:29:15,875 Turn into something. 1055 00:29:16,416 --> 00:29:16,708 Yeah. 1056 00:29:16,708 --> 00:29:17,291 More serious. 1057 00:29:17,875 --> 00:29:18,583 Yeah, definitely. 1058 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:19,333 Definitely. 1059 00:29:19,416 --> 00:29:19,625 Yeah. 1060 00:29:19,875 --> 00:29:21,500 But what is your experience in 1061 00:29:21,500 --> 00:29:22,750 just speaking to kind of the 1062 00:29:22,750 --> 00:29:24,875 general public, do you feel that 1063 00:29:24,875 --> 00:29:26,875 sentiment overall is changing 1064 00:29:26,875 --> 00:29:28,833 in Australia or is it still, you 1065 00:29:28,833 --> 00:29:30,208 think we're still a little bit 1066 00:29:30,208 --> 00:29:31,958 where it's treated like, Hmm. 1067 00:29:31,958 --> 00:29:33,958 Like, you know, that's different. 1068 00:29:35,041 --> 00:29:37,750 Um, I think sort of last year 1069 00:29:37,750 --> 00:29:39,166 when I started speaking to 1070 00:29:39,166 --> 00:29:41,041 people was definitely like. 1071 00:29:41,875 --> 00:29:43,416 Like, why? 1072 00:29:43,416 --> 00:29:44,250 What are you doing? 1073 00:29:44,916 --> 00:29:46,125 And a lot of people 1074 00:29:46,583 --> 00:29:47,500 didn't know about it. 1075 00:29:47,625 --> 00:29:49,541 Today when I speak to people, I 1076 00:29:49,541 --> 00:29:51,166 think they're like, okay, they're 1077 00:29:51,166 --> 00:29:52,750 like that, that's interesting. 1078 00:29:52,833 --> 00:29:53,500 And so they're not 1079 00:29:53,500 --> 00:29:54,750 like, you're crazy. 1080 00:29:55,291 --> 00:29:56,250 Um, they're like, okay, 1081 00:29:56,541 --> 00:29:57,916 that's, that's interesting. 1082 00:29:58,583 --> 00:29:59,875 But then they're still, there's 1083 00:29:59,875 --> 00:30:01,416 a real lack of, of knowledge. 1084 00:30:01,541 --> 00:30:05,625 Um, and you know, just there's 1085 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:07,666 people that have, may have an 1086 00:30:07,666 --> 00:30:08,666 opinion about it, but actually 1087 00:30:08,666 --> 00:30:10,541 may not necessarily understand it. 1088 00:30:11,083 --> 00:30:12,625 Um, and so you see that 1089 00:30:12,625 --> 00:30:13,541 happening quite often. 1090 00:30:13,541 --> 00:30:14,833 And then, you know, things like, 1091 00:30:15,125 --> 00:30:16,666 well, there's only 21 million 1092 00:30:16,833 --> 00:30:18,791 Bitcoin that can ever be created. 1093 00:30:18,875 --> 00:30:20,166 Um, and understanding, you know, 1094 00:30:20,375 --> 00:30:21,666 what does that actually mean? 1095 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:23,708 And then knowing that today's 1096 00:30:23,708 --> 00:30:25,083 currency isn't backed by gold, 1097 00:30:25,083 --> 00:30:26,416 and it used to be backed by gold. 1098 00:30:26,791 --> 00:30:29,333 Um, and so, yeah, so I think. 1099 00:30:30,041 --> 00:30:31,541 There's, there's still a lot 1100 00:30:31,541 --> 00:30:33,500 of of knowledge to be gained 1101 00:30:33,500 --> 00:30:34,875 by a lot of, a lot of people. 1102 00:30:34,875 --> 00:30:36,166 And I'd say there's a very 1103 00:30:36,166 --> 00:30:37,041 small percentage of the 1104 00:30:37,041 --> 00:30:38,208 overall population that's 1105 00:30:38,250 --> 00:30:39,875 actually understands it today. 1106 00:30:39,875 --> 00:30:41,041 And that's actually probably 1107 00:30:41,041 --> 00:30:42,708 part of the opportunity, um, 1108 00:30:42,750 --> 00:30:43,916 because if everyone understood 1109 00:30:43,916 --> 00:30:45,333 it and understood how the 1110 00:30:45,333 --> 00:30:46,625 banking system worked today, 1111 00:30:46,916 --> 00:30:48,208 then Bitcoin would be much, much 1112 00:30:48,208 --> 00:30:49,250 higher than where it is today. 1113 00:30:49,541 --> 00:30:50,291 Um, yeah. 1114 00:30:50,291 --> 00:30:53,250 And so I think there's certain 1115 00:30:53,250 --> 00:30:54,500 world events that actually occur 1116 00:30:54,500 --> 00:30:56,500 that actually does increase 1117 00:30:56,541 --> 00:30:57,750 the price in Bitcoin because 1118 00:30:57,750 --> 00:30:58,666 suddenly people are like, 1119 00:30:58,666 --> 00:30:59,833 actually, you know, what's, 1120 00:30:59,833 --> 00:31:01,666 what's happened in in Thailand 1121 00:31:01,708 --> 00:31:03,458 has meant there's real value in 1122 00:31:03,458 --> 00:31:04,583 owning Bitcoin because it can't 1123 00:31:04,583 --> 00:31:05,958 be controlled by a government. 1124 00:31:05,958 --> 00:31:07,166 And you can't just be, have 1125 00:31:07,166 --> 00:31:08,166 it turned off like that. 1126 00:31:08,750 --> 00:31:10,125 Um, and so it gives control 1127 00:31:10,125 --> 00:31:11,791 back to the, to the individual. 1128 00:31:11,875 --> 00:31:13,833 And so I think that's gonna 1129 00:31:13,833 --> 00:31:15,041 continue to keep on happening. 1130 00:31:15,041 --> 00:31:17,375 And there'll be a point in time 1131 00:31:17,375 --> 00:31:19,000 where the, the curve of, of 1132 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:20,625 increase adoption is just going 1133 00:31:20,625 --> 00:31:22,416 to, um, increase dramatically. 1134 00:31:22,416 --> 00:31:23,833 And then there'll be a lot 1135 00:31:23,833 --> 00:31:25,166 more people sort of rushing to 1136 00:31:25,208 --> 00:31:26,333 towards owning more Bitcoin. 1137 00:31:47,208 --> 00:31:48,583 Mm. Yeah. 1138 00:31:48,583 --> 00:31:49,791 And I'm also curious to know, 1139 00:31:49,791 --> 00:31:50,750 I don't know if you've made 1140 00:31:50,750 --> 00:31:52,500 this information public or if 1141 00:31:52,500 --> 00:31:53,666 it is allowed to be public, 1142 00:31:53,666 --> 00:31:55,083 I'm just gonna ask it anyway, 1143 00:31:55,333 --> 00:31:56,750 but do you own Bitcoin? 1144 00:31:56,791 --> 00:31:57,958 Bitcoin or do you own like 1145 00:31:58,208 --> 00:31:59,583 Bitcoin through an ETF? 1146 00:32:00,208 --> 00:32:00,833 No, so we, yeah, 1147 00:32:00,833 --> 00:32:01,750 we own it directly. 1148 00:32:01,916 --> 00:32:04,916 Um, and we, we hold the, the 1149 00:32:04,916 --> 00:32:06,083 bitcoin, um, we've got an 1150 00:32:06,291 --> 00:32:08,125 institutional grade custodian. 1151 00:32:08,708 --> 00:32:09,583 Um, nice. 1152 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:11,458 And so, yeah, so I mean, 1153 00:32:11,458 --> 00:32:12,875 one of the things we were 1154 00:32:12,875 --> 00:32:14,916 originally looking at was, you 1155 00:32:14,916 --> 00:32:16,083 know, how best do we hold it? 1156 00:32:16,083 --> 00:32:17,708 And cold storage wallets. 1157 00:32:17,708 --> 00:32:18,291 I didn't wanna leave 1158 00:32:18,291 --> 00:32:19,250 it on exchange, but. 1159 00:32:19,916 --> 00:32:21,041 Yeah, being a public company and 1160 00:32:21,041 --> 00:32:22,208 you've gotta go through an audit 1161 00:32:22,208 --> 00:32:23,833 process that needed to be on an 1162 00:32:23,833 --> 00:32:26,000 institutional grade, um, custodian. 1163 00:32:26,416 --> 00:32:28,041 Um, and so currently we're using 1164 00:32:28,041 --> 00:32:31,166 zoia, um, but we, and so Zoia 1165 00:32:31,166 --> 00:32:32,291 is, you know, one of the larger, 1166 00:32:32,375 --> 00:32:34,250 um, custodians backed by Standard 1167 00:32:34,250 --> 00:32:35,750 Charter Bank and NAB Bank. 1168 00:32:36,250 --> 00:32:39,125 Um, but yeah, ultimately as 1169 00:32:39,125 --> 00:32:40,250 our Bitcoin holding starts to 1170 00:32:40,250 --> 00:32:41,541 grow, um, we'll end up having 1171 00:32:41,541 --> 00:32:43,708 multiple custodians, um, makes 1172 00:32:43,708 --> 00:32:44,541 and so makes sense looking for 1173 00:32:44,541 --> 00:32:45,833 multiple institutional grade, 1174 00:32:46,125 --> 00:32:48,583 um, custodians to mitigate any 1175 00:32:48,583 --> 00:32:49,791 potential risks, um, between 1176 00:32:49,791 --> 00:32:51,041 any, any of those custodians. 1177 00:32:52,208 --> 00:32:53,208 Yeah, it makes sense. 1178 00:32:53,208 --> 00:32:53,875 And, and that this is 1179 00:32:53,875 --> 00:32:54,875 what I love about Bitcoin. 1180 00:32:54,875 --> 00:32:55,916 Like you can just always 1181 00:32:55,916 --> 00:32:57,250 continue going down the rabbit 1182 00:32:57,250 --> 00:32:58,583 hole of how do you de-risk, 1183 00:32:58,583 --> 00:32:59,541 how do you like, you know? 1184 00:32:59,541 --> 00:32:59,666 Yeah. 1185 00:32:59,875 --> 00:33:00,125 Correct. 1186 00:33:00,416 --> 00:33:02,916 Take that decentralization mindset 1187 00:33:02,916 --> 00:33:04,583 in all other areas of your life. 1188 00:33:04,583 --> 00:33:07,041 Like for example, me with banking, 1189 00:33:07,041 --> 00:33:08,375 I've started like banking with 1190 00:33:08,375 --> 00:33:10,500 multiple banks to see whichever 1191 00:33:10,500 --> 00:33:12,291 one's the easiest one to move money 1192 00:33:12,291 --> 00:33:13,791 in, you know, onto an exchange. 1193 00:33:14,041 --> 00:33:14,166 Yes. 1194 00:33:14,250 --> 00:33:15,291 Um, have you had any 1195 00:33:15,291 --> 00:33:16,583 issues with that or is it 1196 00:33:16,583 --> 00:33:17,500 a little bit different for 1197 00:33:17,500 --> 00:33:19,333 companies transferring money? 1198 00:33:19,333 --> 00:33:19,375 Um, 1199 00:33:20,166 --> 00:33:22,333 yeah, like, it was, yeah, we 1200 00:33:22,333 --> 00:33:24,958 certainly had some initially 1201 00:33:25,125 --> 00:33:26,250 sort of figuring out how best 1202 00:33:26,250 --> 00:33:27,166 we were gonna be able to do that 1203 00:33:27,166 --> 00:33:28,791 because, you know, certain banks 1204 00:33:28,791 --> 00:33:30,291 have certain restrictions in the 1205 00:33:30,291 --> 00:33:31,625 amount of money that you can. 1206 00:33:31,916 --> 00:33:33,791 Um, but yeah, once you move 1207 00:33:33,791 --> 00:33:35,291 into an institutional grade, 1208 00:33:35,458 --> 00:33:38,375 um, acquirer of Bitcoin, um, 1209 00:33:38,375 --> 00:33:39,500 then it becomes a bit easier. 1210 00:33:39,541 --> 00:33:40,541 And so then you can actually 1211 00:33:40,541 --> 00:33:41,583 move large amounts of money 1212 00:33:41,583 --> 00:33:42,708 to, to be able to do that. 1213 00:33:43,250 --> 00:33:44,541 Um, and so yeah, we've now got 1214 00:33:44,541 --> 00:33:45,833 that set up and, and that structure 1215 00:33:45,833 --> 00:33:47,666 sort of put in place, um, to be 1216 00:33:47,666 --> 00:33:49,250 able to do that and makes it. 1217 00:33:49,583 --> 00:33:50,541 Quite easy to be able to, 1218 00:33:50,541 --> 00:33:51,666 to buy more Bitcoin and 1219 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:52,958 continue to keep on doing that 1220 00:33:52,958 --> 00:33:53,875 once we're in New Zealand. 1221 00:33:55,500 --> 00:33:55,916 Yeah. 1222 00:33:56,083 --> 00:33:57,208 Awesome, awesome. 1223 00:33:57,583 --> 00:34:00,208 Um, I would be curious to know, 1224 00:34:00,375 --> 00:34:01,541 'cause one of the things I, I 1225 00:34:01,541 --> 00:34:02,875 always have in the back of my 1226 00:34:02,875 --> 00:34:04,625 mind is thinking of my, like, past 1227 00:34:04,625 --> 00:34:06,958 employers and, and you know, I'm 1228 00:34:06,958 --> 00:34:08,875 quite good friends still with a lot 1229 00:34:08,875 --> 00:34:10,291 of people that I used to work with 1230 00:34:10,291 --> 00:34:12,500 and a lot of them are in CFO roles 1231 00:34:12,500 --> 00:34:14,166 and not necessarily for public 1232 00:34:14,166 --> 00:34:15,666 companies, but I'm like thinking, 1233 00:34:15,666 --> 00:34:17,208 how do I slip them a book? 1234 00:34:17,458 --> 00:34:18,750 How do I get a conversation 1235 00:34:18,750 --> 00:34:20,083 started and be like, Hey, just, 1236 00:34:20,083 --> 00:34:21,375 you know, open your mind to this. 1237 00:34:21,375 --> 00:34:23,458 But do you have any sort of advice 1238 00:34:23,458 --> 00:34:25,083 for people who are currently 1239 00:34:25,583 --> 00:34:28,041 in a business why they should 1240 00:34:28,375 --> 00:34:30,000 potentially consider having, 1241 00:34:30,291 --> 00:34:31,625 even if it's like a single 1242 00:34:31,625 --> 00:34:33,291 digit allocation to Bitcoin? 1243 00:34:33,875 --> 00:34:36,750 Yeah, um, I mean I think it still 1244 00:34:36,750 --> 00:34:39,250 always comes back to what is money 1245 00:34:39,958 --> 00:34:42,208 and just to actually understand 1246 00:34:42,208 --> 00:34:44,458 that in a lot of detail and, you 1247 00:34:44,458 --> 00:34:45,375 know, you can use something like 1248 00:34:45,375 --> 00:34:46,916 chat GPT to actually help you. 1249 00:34:47,291 --> 00:34:48,583 Pull together a presentation that 1250 00:34:48,583 --> 00:34:50,583 actually understands to help you 1251 00:34:50,583 --> 00:34:51,791 understand better what money is. 1252 00:34:51,791 --> 00:34:53,291 And going back to the gold 1253 00:34:53,291 --> 00:34:55,083 standards, when, when that, 1254 00:34:55,125 --> 00:34:56,375 when that existed, when 1255 00:34:56,375 --> 00:34:57,541 that stopped existing. 1256 00:34:57,833 --> 00:34:59,291 And then, okay, draw me a graph 1257 00:34:59,291 --> 00:35:02,000 that shows me the cost of the loaf 1258 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:04,125 of bread from that time to today, 1259 00:35:04,333 --> 00:35:06,041 and how did that actually increase? 1260 00:35:06,125 --> 00:35:07,416 And then you put in, say, 1261 00:35:07,625 --> 00:35:08,791 building a graph that shows 1262 00:35:08,791 --> 00:35:11,333 me the, the US debt from, you 1263 00:35:11,333 --> 00:35:12,458 know, when we lost, when the 1264 00:35:12,458 --> 00:35:13,958 gold standard was lost to today. 1265 00:35:13,958 --> 00:35:15,083 And you see how that's actually 1266 00:35:15,083 --> 00:35:16,791 increasing and growing and 1267 00:35:16,791 --> 00:35:18,416 you're like, okay, so how 1268 00:35:18,416 --> 00:35:20,041 does this ever get fixed? 1269 00:35:20,375 --> 00:35:21,750 Um, no one's ever been able to 1270 00:35:21,750 --> 00:35:23,083 answer that question as to how the 1271 00:35:23,083 --> 00:35:24,791 US debt is ever gonna be fixed. 1272 00:35:24,791 --> 00:35:25,625 And that's because it can't, 1273 00:35:25,958 --> 00:35:26,916 like, there's just no ways 1274 00:35:26,916 --> 00:35:28,416 that they can, can fix it. 1275 00:35:28,916 --> 00:35:30,125 Um, and so the only way that 1276 00:35:30,125 --> 00:35:31,625 they can fix it is probably, 1277 00:35:31,750 --> 00:35:32,625 you know, the US government 1278 00:35:32,625 --> 00:35:33,916 buying large amounts of Bitcoin. 1279 00:35:34,375 --> 00:35:36,166 Um, and seeing, you know, 1280 00:35:36,166 --> 00:35:37,333 that's, that's, and you know. 1281 00:35:38,208 --> 00:35:40,541 If the US debt's going to keep 1282 00:35:40,541 --> 00:35:42,958 in increasing, which it will, um, 1283 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:44,375 owning Bitcoin is going to, you 1284 00:35:44,375 --> 00:35:45,458 know, is gonna be really, really 1285 00:35:45,458 --> 00:35:47,291 important because the, the, the US 1286 00:35:47,291 --> 00:35:48,875 debt's just the, the US dollar is 1287 00:35:48,875 --> 00:35:50,333 just gonna keep on being devalued. 1288 00:35:50,333 --> 00:35:51,666 And so when you go to the 1289 00:35:51,666 --> 00:35:52,625 supermarket, everything will 1290 00:35:52,625 --> 00:35:53,458 just continue to keep on 1291 00:35:53,458 --> 00:35:55,125 costing a lot more money than, 1292 00:35:55,125 --> 00:35:56,250 than what it has previously. 1293 00:35:57,166 --> 00:35:59,291 Um, and you know, even, you 1294 00:35:59,291 --> 00:36:00,541 know, traveling in the US and 1295 00:36:00,541 --> 00:36:02,708 just seeing the cost of, of 1296 00:36:02,708 --> 00:36:04,333 things in the US as an Australian 1297 00:36:04,333 --> 00:36:05,625 taking Aussie dollars into the 1298 00:36:05,625 --> 00:36:08,166 US it is ridiculously expensive. 1299 00:36:08,625 --> 00:36:10,291 Um, and you, you know, you're 1300 00:36:10,291 --> 00:36:11,916 going into the, the supermarket 1301 00:36:11,916 --> 00:36:13,125 and even just buying a bottle of 1302 00:36:13,125 --> 00:36:15,416 water and that's, you know, the 1303 00:36:15,416 --> 00:36:17,708 five, $5 or $6 for a bottle of 1304 00:36:17,750 --> 00:36:18,666 water and you're like, okay, now 1305 00:36:18,666 --> 00:36:20,041 put that into Aussie dollar terms. 1306 00:36:20,041 --> 00:36:22,166 It's just, yeah, it's, it's insane. 1307 00:36:22,666 --> 00:36:23,625 Um, and the same going to 1308 00:36:23,625 --> 00:36:25,750 restaurants like you're spending. 1309 00:36:26,333 --> 00:36:28,250 The same in US dollar terms 1310 00:36:28,291 --> 00:36:30,083 in the US and it's like an $80 1311 00:36:30,083 --> 00:36:32,000 meal, but that's, you convert 1312 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:32,875 that into Aussie dollars and 1313 00:36:32,875 --> 00:36:34,125 it's, yeah, it's, it's enormous. 1314 00:36:34,125 --> 00:36:35,208 And so that's the, the 1315 00:36:35,208 --> 00:36:36,750 devaluation of, of currencies 1316 00:36:36,750 --> 00:36:38,083 that are occurring because 1317 00:36:38,083 --> 00:36:39,291 governments are printing money. 1318 00:36:39,833 --> 00:36:43,166 Um, and yeah, I, I just 1319 00:36:43,166 --> 00:36:44,250 don't see that changing. 1320 00:36:44,250 --> 00:36:46,250 And so the way that an individual 1321 00:36:46,250 --> 00:36:48,166 can protect themselves against that 1322 00:36:48,166 --> 00:36:49,666 is by holding, holding Bitcoin. 1323 00:36:49,875 --> 00:36:51,291 Um, and so doing whatever 1324 00:36:51,291 --> 00:36:52,875 you possibly can to, to 1325 00:36:52,875 --> 00:36:54,291 hold as much Bitcoin as you, 1326 00:36:54,500 --> 00:36:55,833 as you possibly can today. 1327 00:36:55,916 --> 00:36:58,375 And yeah, it's often, I guess 1328 00:36:58,375 --> 00:36:59,875 people think about holding 1329 00:36:59,875 --> 00:37:01,375 Bitcoin is like, you know, it's 1330 00:37:01,375 --> 00:37:03,000 volatile, it's really scary, but 1331 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:05,125 I think actually holding fear 1332 00:37:05,125 --> 00:37:07,333 currency is gonna become more of 1333 00:37:07,333 --> 00:37:08,833 an issue for an individual and 1334 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:10,250 is actually the bigger risk is 1335 00:37:10,250 --> 00:37:11,625 actually holding the fear currency 1336 00:37:11,625 --> 00:37:13,166 rather than, than holding Bitcoin. 1337 00:37:14,958 --> 00:37:16,000 Yeah, absolutely. 1338 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:17,708 And I think a lot of people, 1339 00:37:17,708 --> 00:37:19,541 particularly since COVID, 'cause 1340 00:37:19,541 --> 00:37:20,750 there's just been massive. 1341 00:37:21,333 --> 00:37:23,125 Money printing worldwide in every 1342 00:37:23,125 --> 00:37:24,791 country since, since then to deal 1343 00:37:24,791 --> 00:37:26,750 with it, um, has really opened 1344 00:37:26,750 --> 00:37:29,250 up people's minds to how easy it 1345 00:37:29,250 --> 00:37:31,250 is to devalue the local currency. 1346 00:37:31,500 --> 00:37:31,583 Right. 1347 00:37:31,625 --> 00:37:32,666 We never know what kind of a 1348 00:37:32,666 --> 00:37:34,125 catastrophic event, you know, is 1349 00:37:34,125 --> 00:37:35,208 around the corner and what might 1350 00:37:35,208 --> 00:37:36,625 happen that will again, trigger 1351 00:37:36,625 --> 00:37:39,041 this off and we'll be in an even 1352 00:37:39,041 --> 00:37:40,791 worse situation than we are today. 1353 00:37:41,250 --> 00:37:41,625 Right. 1354 00:37:41,625 --> 00:37:43,166 And you know, in countries like 1355 00:37:43,166 --> 00:37:45,333 the US you look at that Fred data 1356 00:37:45,333 --> 00:37:46,875 of like the money printing, just 1357 00:37:46,875 --> 00:37:49,291 how it's gone up exponentially. 1358 00:37:49,291 --> 00:37:50,125 And we're talking about like 1359 00:37:50,125 --> 00:37:52,000 trillions of dollars being printed 1360 00:37:52,375 --> 00:37:53,875 pretty much like every day. 1361 00:37:54,083 --> 00:37:56,333 It's um, it just feels 1362 00:37:56,333 --> 00:37:58,500 like, uh, it's not something 1363 00:37:58,500 --> 00:37:59,875 to be taken lightly. 1364 00:37:59,875 --> 00:38:01,250 And even though it's happening 1365 00:38:01,250 --> 00:38:03,000 in the us the fact that they 1366 00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:04,500 have a global reserve currency, 1367 00:38:04,500 --> 00:38:05,750 the fact that they have the most 1368 00:38:05,750 --> 00:38:07,708 powerful central bank in the world. 1369 00:38:07,708 --> 00:38:07,875 Right, 1370 00:38:08,208 --> 00:38:08,333 right. 1371 00:38:08,333 --> 00:38:08,416 It 1372 00:38:08,416 --> 00:38:10,291 does have an impact on 1373 00:38:10,291 --> 00:38:11,250 every other country in 1374 00:38:11,250 --> 00:38:12,500 the world, like, and yes. 1375 00:38:13,333 --> 00:38:14,708 Countries such as like Australia, 1376 00:38:14,708 --> 00:38:15,875 that have a stronger currency 1377 00:38:15,875 --> 00:38:17,625 are less impacted than countries 1378 00:38:17,625 --> 00:38:18,916 that have a weaker currency. 1379 00:38:18,916 --> 00:38:21,041 But it still comes with 1380 00:38:21,041 --> 00:38:22,416 huge impacts and yeah. 1381 00:38:22,666 --> 00:38:23,791 And as part of like your 1382 00:38:23,791 --> 00:38:24,875 risk assessment, do you 1383 00:38:24,875 --> 00:38:25,958 look at that as well? 1384 00:38:25,958 --> 00:38:27,416 Like what is the US doing? 1385 00:38:28,583 --> 00:38:29,625 Yeah, I mean, I, I think 1386 00:38:29,625 --> 00:38:33,041 definitely, um, yeah, and it's, 1387 00:38:33,083 --> 00:38:34,333 it's sort of like there's this 1388 00:38:34,375 --> 00:38:36,291 invisible tax that's occurring. 1389 00:38:36,750 --> 00:38:38,208 Um, you don't realize that 1390 00:38:38,208 --> 00:38:39,333 it's actually happening. 1391 00:38:39,750 --> 00:38:41,416 Um, no one knows about it, 1392 00:38:41,416 --> 00:38:42,916 but I guess the governments 1393 00:38:42,916 --> 00:38:44,125 are making these decisions to 1394 00:38:44,125 --> 00:38:45,958 essentially devalue the currency. 1395 00:38:45,958 --> 00:38:47,083 And when you're going to the 1396 00:38:47,083 --> 00:38:48,250 shops, you know, your same 1397 00:38:48,250 --> 00:38:49,500 salary is not buying you the 1398 00:38:49,500 --> 00:38:50,833 same amount of money, listen, 1399 00:38:50,833 --> 00:38:52,416 the same amount of, uh, produce. 1400 00:38:52,500 --> 00:38:54,583 Um, and so that's, yeah, 1401 00:38:54,583 --> 00:38:55,333 that, that's I think 1402 00:38:55,333 --> 00:38:56,500 a, a really big impact. 1403 00:38:56,500 --> 00:38:59,291 And um, that's why Bitcoin is 1404 00:38:59,291 --> 00:38:59,958 such, is such a good thing. 1405 00:38:59,958 --> 00:39:00,583 'cause it solves a 1406 00:39:00,583 --> 00:39:01,375 lot of these problems. 1407 00:39:03,041 --> 00:39:04,708 Yeah, and I'm continuing to be 1408 00:39:04,708 --> 00:39:07,708 shocked by inflation in Australia. 1409 00:39:07,708 --> 00:39:10,333 Just almost every day I go and 1410 00:39:10,333 --> 00:39:11,875 purchase something and I'm just 1411 00:39:11,958 --> 00:39:14,250 in absolute shock as to how 1412 00:39:15,083 --> 00:39:17,333 fast and how high the prices 1413 00:39:17,333 --> 00:39:18,750 of things have increased. 1414 00:39:18,916 --> 00:39:20,500 Like, I went, just got a 1415 00:39:20,500 --> 00:39:22,250 little little cream from, 1416 00:39:22,250 --> 00:39:24,791 um, price line expecting. 1417 00:39:24,791 --> 00:39:25,625 I'm thinking, oh, this is 1418 00:39:25,625 --> 00:39:28,166 probably gonna cost around $12 95. 1419 00:39:28,208 --> 00:39:29,750 It was $30. 1420 00:39:30,083 --> 00:39:30,166 Yeah. 1421 00:39:30,166 --> 00:39:31,708 And I'm sure it costs less than 1422 00:39:31,708 --> 00:39:36,208 $2 to make, um, my coffee as well. 1423 00:39:36,208 --> 00:39:37,333 I purchased coffee on the 1424 00:39:37,333 --> 00:39:39,541 weekend and it was $6 60 1425 00:39:39,541 --> 00:39:42,000 because it had a 10% surcharge. 1426 00:39:42,250 --> 00:39:43,000 So I'm like, that's 1427 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:45,000 nearly $7 for a coffee. 1428 00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:46,791 Like, I remember when it was $2 1429 00:39:46,791 --> 00:39:48,916 50 or $3 to get a flat white. 1430 00:39:49,250 --> 00:39:50,291 Not anymore. 1431 00:39:51,500 --> 00:39:52,208 Like, it's just, it's, 1432 00:39:52,208 --> 00:39:53,250 it's out of control. 1433 00:39:53,250 --> 00:39:54,750 And I love, like one of the 1434 00:39:54,750 --> 00:39:56,208 questions that I love, um. 1435 00:39:56,875 --> 00:39:58,375 Asking people to get them to 1436 00:39:58,375 --> 00:40:01,000 think about fiat currency is 1437 00:40:01,250 --> 00:40:03,250 when Australia went from the 1438 00:40:03,250 --> 00:40:07,166 pound to the dollar in 1966. 1439 00:40:07,583 --> 00:40:09,750 Um, since then, the 1440 00:40:09,750 --> 00:40:10,958 Australian dollar has less 1441 00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:14,208 lost 94.5% of its value. 1442 00:40:14,208 --> 00:40:18,500 So $1 from 1966 would be worth 6 1443 00:40:18,500 --> 00:40:21,541 cents in this year, like today. 1444 00:40:21,625 --> 00:40:21,750 Yeah, right. 1445 00:40:21,958 --> 00:40:23,125 Which is absolutely 1446 00:40:23,125 --> 00:40:24,125 crazy to think about. 1447 00:40:24,125 --> 00:40:26,666 So, you know, if you, I think I, 1448 00:40:26,666 --> 00:40:28,250 I read in um, Lawrence's book, 1449 00:40:28,250 --> 00:40:30,000 or maybe, I can't remember, 1450 00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:31,291 I've got so many Bitcoin books 1451 00:40:31,291 --> 00:40:32,958 going on at the same time. 1452 00:40:32,958 --> 00:40:34,458 But if you found like a, you know, 1453 00:40:34,625 --> 00:40:36,625 a chest of cash from, you know, 1454 00:40:36,625 --> 00:40:38,666 your grandfather, it wouldn't be 1455 00:40:38,666 --> 00:40:40,291 worth what you, what you think. 1456 00:40:40,291 --> 00:40:40,583 That's right. 1457 00:40:40,583 --> 00:40:42,958 It, it is worth today. 1458 00:40:42,958 --> 00:40:44,125 And it's like, right. 1459 00:40:44,250 --> 00:40:46,791 It's so disheartening and it's, 1460 00:40:46,791 --> 00:40:48,958 it's particularly sad how many 1461 00:40:48,958 --> 00:40:50,583 people don't, don't know this and, 1462 00:40:50,583 --> 00:40:52,083 and are surprised, like you, you 1463 00:40:52,083 --> 00:40:54,208 mentioned before to even learn. 1464 00:40:55,333 --> 00:40:57,000 You know that the dollar is 1465 00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:58,250 no longer pegged to gold. 1466 00:40:58,250 --> 00:41:00,416 It's completely separate. 1467 00:41:00,416 --> 00:41:00,750 So 1468 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:01,375 yeah, 1469 00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:04,041 there's, there's a huge education. 1470 00:41:04,375 --> 00:41:04,916 Yeah. 1471 00:41:04,916 --> 00:41:05,083 Sorry. 1472 00:41:05,083 --> 00:41:06,708 It's just been this, this gradual 1473 00:41:06,708 --> 00:41:08,125 thing that's actually occurred 1474 00:41:08,625 --> 00:41:12,500 and it hasn't been, um, it's not, 1475 00:41:12,500 --> 00:41:14,250 it's not obvious to the individual 1476 00:41:14,250 --> 00:41:15,500 what's actually happening. 1477 00:41:15,625 --> 00:41:17,125 Um, the only way it's obvious 1478 00:41:17,125 --> 00:41:18,333 to them is when they go to the 1479 00:41:18,375 --> 00:41:21,291 supermarket, but that's still, um, 1480 00:41:21,375 --> 00:41:22,666 you know, this, this gradual thing. 1481 00:41:22,666 --> 00:41:23,333 It's like, gosh, that's 1482 00:41:23,333 --> 00:41:24,083 becoming expensive. 1483 00:41:24,083 --> 00:41:24,666 And then it's like, oh, 1484 00:41:24,666 --> 00:41:25,791 that's a bit more expensive. 1485 00:41:25,791 --> 00:41:26,375 And then, yeah. 1486 00:41:26,458 --> 00:41:29,125 So it's, um, it's quite, I think 1487 00:41:29,125 --> 00:41:30,291 it's quite a tricky thing for, 1488 00:41:30,291 --> 00:41:31,750 for individuals to easily see. 1489 00:41:32,708 --> 00:41:34,500 Mm mm Yeah. 1490 00:41:34,708 --> 00:41:36,000 And, and it is very triggering 1491 00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:37,250 for me as well to see sort 1492 00:41:37,250 --> 00:41:38,833 of the government scapegoat 1493 00:41:38,833 --> 00:41:40,333 supermarkets for prices. 1494 00:41:40,333 --> 00:41:41,708 I'm like, Hmm. 1495 00:41:42,541 --> 00:41:43,750 Kind of like, you know, not 1496 00:41:43,750 --> 00:41:45,416 pointing to the root rules here, 1497 00:41:45,500 --> 00:41:47,750 but not defending supermarkets. 1498 00:41:47,750 --> 00:41:49,166 I'm sure they're not a hundred 1499 00:41:49,166 --> 00:41:50,416 percent innocent either, but 1500 00:41:50,416 --> 00:41:52,791 like I I, I don't think the root 1501 00:41:52,791 --> 00:41:54,833 cause LA lies in the supermarkets 1502 00:41:54,916 --> 00:41:56,125 or just in general for the 1503 00:41:56,125 --> 00:41:57,875 price increases everywhere. 1504 00:41:58,250 --> 00:42:00,000 Um, but yeah 1505 00:42:00,083 --> 00:42:02,000 I guess you could maybe, I 1506 00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:02,875 don't know, talking more, 1507 00:42:02,875 --> 00:42:03,625 a bit, bit more about the 1508 00:42:03,750 --> 00:42:05,291 Bitcoin treasury companies 1509 00:42:05,291 --> 00:42:06,875 and what we're seeing, what's 1510 00:42:06,875 --> 00:42:08,916 happening, um, at the moment. 1511 00:42:08,916 --> 00:42:09,666 Maybe there's a bit of 1512 00:42:09,666 --> 00:42:11,500 a, a downward trend in 1513 00:42:11,500 --> 00:42:12,541 some of these companies. 1514 00:42:13,958 --> 00:42:14,791 Um, yeah. 1515 00:42:14,875 --> 00:42:15,250 Yeah. 1516 00:42:15,333 --> 00:42:19,333 And there's also, um, like 1517 00:42:19,333 --> 00:42:22,458 why someone should buy a 1518 00:42:22,458 --> 00:42:23,375 Bitcoin treasury versus 1519 00:42:23,375 --> 00:42:24,666 buying Bitcoin directly. 1520 00:42:26,166 --> 00:42:26,500 Yep. 1521 00:42:26,583 --> 00:42:27,541 I would love to know that. 1522 00:42:27,541 --> 00:42:28,583 'cause this is something I 1523 00:42:28,583 --> 00:42:30,041 don't know the answer to. 1524 00:42:30,041 --> 00:42:31,125 So what, what is 1525 00:42:31,125 --> 00:42:32,041 even the difference? 1526 00:42:33,750 --> 00:42:35,666 Yeah, I mean, I guess if you 1527 00:42:35,666 --> 00:42:37,833 are, um, you've got the choice 1528 00:42:37,833 --> 00:42:39,083 of buying Bitcoin and buying 1529 00:42:39,083 --> 00:42:41,291 a Bitcoin treasury business. 1530 00:42:41,416 --> 00:42:42,666 Um, and so. 1531 00:42:43,916 --> 00:42:45,125 Owning Bitcoin means you own, you 1532 00:42:45,125 --> 00:42:46,416 own the Bitcoin directly yourself. 1533 00:42:46,416 --> 00:42:47,291 And so I guess you've got the 1534 00:42:47,291 --> 00:42:48,833 ability to, to buy through an 1535 00:42:48,833 --> 00:42:50,750 exchange and you're storing it 1536 00:42:50,750 --> 00:42:52,041 hopefully in, in some sort of cold 1537 00:42:52,041 --> 00:42:54,083 storage, um, type environment. 1538 00:42:54,541 --> 00:42:56,625 Um, and so yeah, a lot, a 1539 00:42:56,625 --> 00:42:57,500 lot of people are doing that. 1540 00:42:57,500 --> 00:42:58,458 But then you've also got, got the 1541 00:42:58,458 --> 00:43:00,791 ability to buy like a Bitcoin ETF. 1542 00:43:01,291 --> 00:43:03,375 And so that's where, um, 1543 00:43:03,416 --> 00:43:04,583 someone's wrapped up a financial 1544 00:43:04,583 --> 00:43:06,083 pro instrument that's then has 1545 00:43:06,083 --> 00:43:07,583 Bitcoin sitting in the background. 1546 00:43:08,125 --> 00:43:10,958 And that's designed to, to make 1547 00:43:10,958 --> 00:43:13,291 it Bitcoin more accessible to 1548 00:43:13,791 --> 00:43:16,583 people that aren't, don't have an 1549 00:43:16,583 --> 00:43:18,583 ex an account with an exchange. 1550 00:43:18,583 --> 00:43:19,250 They don't wanna go through 1551 00:43:19,250 --> 00:43:20,750 the hassle of cult storage. 1552 00:43:20,958 --> 00:43:22,833 And they probably just want 1553 00:43:22,833 --> 00:43:24,416 some expo Bitcoin exposure. 1554 00:43:24,791 --> 00:43:26,666 Um, inside of their, of their 1555 00:43:26,666 --> 00:43:27,708 portfolio, and they're probably 1556 00:43:27,708 --> 00:43:29,041 not a Bitcoin maxi either. 1557 00:43:29,666 --> 00:43:31,791 Um, so if someone's told them that 1558 00:43:32,125 --> 00:43:33,500 owning Bitcoin is a great idea 1559 00:43:33,708 --> 00:43:35,125 and just, you know, allocate one 1560 00:43:35,125 --> 00:43:36,708 or 2% of your portfolio, or maybe 1561 00:43:36,708 --> 00:43:38,000 it's 5% of your portfolio to, 1562 00:43:38,083 --> 00:43:39,708 to Bitcoin and doing it through 1563 00:43:39,708 --> 00:43:41,208 an ETF, you know, probably makes 1564 00:43:41,208 --> 00:43:42,416 sense for people like that. 1565 00:43:43,125 --> 00:43:44,625 Um, and so then what's happened 1566 00:43:44,625 --> 00:43:46,625 is you've got now, I guess 1567 00:43:46,625 --> 00:43:47,875 a Bitcoin treasury business 1568 00:43:47,875 --> 00:43:50,750 where the company might have 1569 00:43:50,750 --> 00:43:52,000 an existing operating business. 1570 00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:53,333 And in our, since we, we do, 1571 00:43:53,333 --> 00:43:54,416 we've got our zoom to and 1572 00:43:54,416 --> 00:43:56,291 locate to you, uh, business, 1573 00:43:56,458 --> 00:43:58,750 and we're now saying, okay, we 1574 00:43:58,791 --> 00:44:01,041 also gonna start allocating, um, 1575 00:44:01,041 --> 00:44:02,916 some, some of our excess cash. 1576 00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:04,333 Um, or we might raise capital 1577 00:44:04,333 --> 00:44:05,875 to actually put that, that 1578 00:44:06,250 --> 00:44:07,750 that cash to work, um, in 1579 00:44:07,750 --> 00:44:08,583 buying more, more Bitcoin. 1580 00:44:09,541 --> 00:44:12,083 And so, um, that's different 1581 00:44:12,083 --> 00:44:13,458 to owning Bitcoin directly. 1582 00:44:13,541 --> 00:44:16,250 And what this allows is for 1583 00:44:16,250 --> 00:44:18,500 someone who may not necessarily. 1584 00:44:18,583 --> 00:44:20,333 Uh, own Bitcoin directly, but 1585 00:44:20,333 --> 00:44:21,833 they do want some sort of Bitcoin 1586 00:44:21,833 --> 00:44:24,041 exposure inside of their portfolio. 1587 00:44:24,041 --> 00:44:25,041 It makes it really easy for 1588 00:44:25,041 --> 00:44:26,083 them to do that 'cause they can 1589 00:44:26,083 --> 00:44:27,375 just go to their traditional, 1590 00:44:27,916 --> 00:44:29,500 um, share trading portfolio and 1591 00:44:29,500 --> 00:44:30,833 be able to, to buy our stock. 1592 00:44:30,833 --> 00:44:31,583 And that gives them some 1593 00:44:31,583 --> 00:44:32,666 exposure to, to Bitcoin. 1594 00:44:33,541 --> 00:44:34,875 Um, but where you, where this 1595 00:44:34,875 --> 00:44:37,041 becomes interesting is when 1596 00:44:37,041 --> 00:44:39,125 a company like ourselves, um, 1597 00:44:39,208 --> 00:44:40,375 owns a, a reasonable amount of 1598 00:44:40,541 --> 00:44:42,083 Bitcoin on our balance sheet, 1599 00:44:42,458 --> 00:44:45,958 um, and then starts to, to add 1600 00:44:45,958 --> 00:44:47,083 in leverage on top of that. 1601 00:44:47,083 --> 00:44:48,583 And so can, and building some, 1602 00:44:48,583 --> 00:44:50,333 some debt products allows 1603 00:44:50,333 --> 00:44:51,958 us to essentially take the 1604 00:44:51,958 --> 00:44:53,416 fiat currency out of the, 1605 00:44:53,416 --> 00:44:54,958 the, the Fiat worlds and then 1606 00:44:54,958 --> 00:44:56,500 put that into, into bitcoin. 1607 00:44:57,083 --> 00:44:58,166 Um, and then as our Bitcoin 1608 00:44:58,416 --> 00:45:00,166 holdings start to grow in the 1609 00:45:00,166 --> 00:45:01,708 future, because the value of 1610 00:45:01,833 --> 00:45:03,125 Bitcoin we expect will, will 1611 00:45:03,125 --> 00:45:04,916 continue to keep on growing, then 1612 00:45:04,916 --> 00:45:05,958 that's allowing us to then to 1613 00:45:05,958 --> 00:45:07,458 keep on continuing to take more 1614 00:45:07,458 --> 00:45:09,666 fiat currency, um, out of the, the 1615 00:45:09,666 --> 00:45:11,125 fiat world and bringing that into, 1616 00:45:11,166 --> 00:45:12,875 into the Bitcoin balance sheet. 1617 00:45:13,416 --> 00:45:15,541 Um, and so, you know, these, these 1618 00:45:15,541 --> 00:45:17,416 companies are a lot more volatile. 1619 00:45:17,666 --> 00:45:19,458 Um, generally, um, they can 1620 00:45:19,458 --> 00:45:20,875 have large, large swings. 1621 00:45:21,166 --> 00:45:22,000 Um, and so you have the 1622 00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:23,208 ability to potentially 1623 00:45:23,208 --> 00:45:24,833 make outperform Bitcoin. 1624 00:45:25,166 --> 00:45:27,916 Um, but it may, it may also, you 1625 00:45:27,916 --> 00:45:30,166 know, overperform or underperform 1626 00:45:30,166 --> 00:45:31,375 in terms of, you might have some, 1627 00:45:31,500 --> 00:45:32,875 some really heavy downward swings. 1628 00:45:32,875 --> 00:45:33,625 And so you're seeing that at 1629 00:45:33,625 --> 00:45:34,916 the market at the moment where 1630 00:45:35,250 --> 00:45:36,833 we've had a really big up upfront 1631 00:45:36,833 --> 00:45:38,291 and, and, and a lot of these 1632 00:45:38,458 --> 00:45:39,416 Bitcoin treasury businesses, 1633 00:45:39,416 --> 00:45:40,208 and then suddenly there's 1634 00:45:40,208 --> 00:45:41,708 been an enormous correction. 1635 00:45:42,083 --> 00:45:44,541 Um, and so we'll see how, you know, 1636 00:45:44,708 --> 00:45:45,708 I feel like we're sort of hit the 1637 00:45:45,708 --> 00:45:47,083 bottom of that right now and that 1638 00:45:47,083 --> 00:45:48,166 should start to trend upwards. 1639 00:45:48,166 --> 00:45:49,833 But you never know with what 1640 00:45:49,833 --> 00:45:51,000 the, what the markets do. 1641 00:45:51,083 --> 00:45:51,750 And, we'll, we'll 1642 00:45:51,750 --> 00:45:52,500 see how that plays. 1643 00:45:53,750 --> 00:45:55,250 Yeah, I've, I've always found 1644 00:45:55,250 --> 00:45:56,625 it interesting, like, I don't 1645 00:45:57,041 --> 00:45:58,750 necessarily, like, I mean, I'm, 1646 00:45:58,750 --> 00:46:00,291 I'm observing and watching what's 1647 00:46:00,291 --> 00:46:01,583 happening in this space, but I 1648 00:46:01,583 --> 00:46:03,416 don't necessarily understand it. 1649 00:46:03,416 --> 00:46:04,583 Like, I don't necessarily 1650 00:46:04,583 --> 00:46:07,625 understand why a company owning 1651 00:46:07,625 --> 00:46:10,958 Bitcoin would outgrow Bitcoin 1652 00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:13,083 or why would, like, even on a 1653 00:46:13,083 --> 00:46:15,291 downturn, like I just, I don't 1654 00:46:15,291 --> 00:46:16,916 understand because in my mind I 1655 00:46:16,916 --> 00:46:20,041 like things to be like one for one. 1656 00:46:20,500 --> 00:46:20,750 Yeah. 1657 00:46:20,750 --> 00:46:21,833 But that's not the case. 1658 00:46:21,833 --> 00:46:23,708 And I'm like, what is that premium? 1659 00:46:23,708 --> 00:46:25,208 But like, I don't know. 1660 00:46:25,791 --> 00:46:28,708 And so most companies today 1661 00:46:29,416 --> 00:46:30,958 that are listed companies, 1662 00:46:31,083 --> 00:46:33,875 um, they all trade at a, 1663 00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:35,375 a forward looking premium. 1664 00:46:35,375 --> 00:46:37,583 So, um, it might be that you're. 1665 00:46:37,875 --> 00:46:39,000 You know, you've got a, a 1666 00:46:39,041 --> 00:46:40,333 multiple of, of revenue that 1667 00:46:40,333 --> 00:46:41,125 your, your business might 1668 00:46:41,125 --> 00:46:42,125 be valued at, or it might be 1669 00:46:42,125 --> 00:46:43,916 a multiple of, of earnings. 1670 00:46:43,958 --> 00:46:45,041 Um, so profitability of 1671 00:46:45,041 --> 00:46:46,166 that business in the future. 1672 00:46:46,166 --> 00:46:47,500 And so if you look at, you 1673 00:46:47,500 --> 00:46:49,500 know, any of these large listed 1674 00:46:49,500 --> 00:46:50,583 companies like Facebook, they 1675 00:46:50,583 --> 00:46:52,333 all have very large multiples 1676 00:46:52,333 --> 00:46:53,833 of, of those, those numbers. 1677 00:46:54,250 --> 00:46:56,208 Um, and so that, 1678 00:46:56,208 --> 00:46:57,208 that's just common. 1679 00:46:57,208 --> 00:46:59,041 That's, that, that's how listed 1680 00:46:59,041 --> 00:47:01,125 markets operate, um, and have 1681 00:47:01,125 --> 00:47:02,583 been for, for many, many years. 1682 00:47:03,083 --> 00:47:07,250 Um, and so owning, um, you know, a, 1683 00:47:07,333 --> 00:47:09,333 a company that has a certain amount 1684 00:47:09,333 --> 00:47:10,291 of Bitcoin on their balance sheet 1685 00:47:10,291 --> 00:47:12,000 today, if they're doing things 1686 00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:13,208 to actually keep consistently, 1687 00:47:13,208 --> 00:47:15,625 keep on increasing that, then the 1688 00:47:15,625 --> 00:47:17,291 market is basically pricing that 1689 00:47:17,291 --> 00:47:18,625 in, but pricing that in ahead of 1690 00:47:18,625 --> 00:47:20,166 the time of it actually happening. 1691 00:47:20,708 --> 00:47:21,750 And so one of the metrics that 1692 00:47:21,750 --> 00:47:23,291 people look at is the time 1693 00:47:23,666 --> 00:47:25,291 to actually, you might be. 1694 00:47:25,708 --> 00:47:27,000 You know, it might be your 1695 00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:27,958 company's valued at two 1696 00:47:27,958 --> 00:47:29,875 times, um, the value of your 1697 00:47:30,083 --> 00:47:31,500 Bitcoin or sometimes more. 1698 00:47:31,875 --> 00:47:33,541 Um, but how long does it take for 1699 00:47:33,541 --> 00:47:35,000 that business to actually increase 1700 00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:36,625 their Bitcoin holdings to actually 1701 00:47:36,625 --> 00:47:38,500 get to that, that, that value? 1702 00:47:38,541 --> 00:47:39,750 And so sometimes that might 1703 00:47:39,750 --> 00:47:41,375 be, you know, 30 days, 1704 00:47:41,375 --> 00:47:42,500 sometimes that might be a year. 1705 00:47:42,500 --> 00:47:42,958 It might be, 1706 00:47:43,125 --> 00:47:43,375 uh, it 1707 00:47:43,416 --> 00:47:44,250 might be longer. 1708 00:47:44,416 --> 00:47:46,041 Um, and so it depends on the 1709 00:47:46,041 --> 00:47:47,333 velocity of which that company 1710 00:47:47,333 --> 00:47:49,166 can actually acquire more Bitcoin 1711 00:47:49,166 --> 00:47:50,958 onto their balance sheet, um, and 1712 00:47:50,958 --> 00:47:52,583 doing that through equity raises, 1713 00:47:52,583 --> 00:47:54,291 but as well as, um, some debt 1714 00:47:54,291 --> 00:47:55,625 instruments to be able to do that. 1715 00:47:56,416 --> 00:47:57,708 And so, yeah, so it's a, 1716 00:47:57,708 --> 00:48:00,291 it's a complex bit of work. 1717 00:48:00,375 --> 00:48:03,541 Um, and so it, it has the ability 1718 00:48:03,541 --> 00:48:05,166 to, to outperform Bitcoin. 1719 00:48:05,458 --> 00:48:06,666 Um, but it also has the 1720 00:48:06,666 --> 00:48:09,541 ability for people who are just 1721 00:48:09,541 --> 00:48:11,291 wanting some Bitcoin exposure 1722 00:48:12,500 --> 00:48:13,833 and are looking for a simple 1723 00:48:13,833 --> 00:48:14,708 way to be able to do that. 1724 00:48:14,708 --> 00:48:15,416 This, this allows 1725 00:48:15,416 --> 00:48:16,583 'em to, to do that. 1726 00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:17,875 The other interesting thing 1727 00:48:17,875 --> 00:48:19,916 is in certain markets across 1728 00:48:19,958 --> 00:48:22,208 the world, um, there's d. 1729 00:48:22,875 --> 00:48:25,416 Tax laws that apply based on, 1730 00:48:25,500 --> 00:48:27,166 um, owning Bitcoin directly 1731 00:48:27,166 --> 00:48:28,458 versus owning an equity. 1732 00:48:28,833 --> 00:48:29,666 And so, right. 1733 00:48:30,666 --> 00:48:31,916 So there can be some tax 1734 00:48:31,916 --> 00:48:33,125 advantages in being able to do 1735 00:48:33,125 --> 00:48:34,625 that depending on where your 1736 00:48:34,625 --> 00:48:37,125 local, um, like where, where 1737 00:48:37,125 --> 00:48:38,625 your tax residency actually is. 1738 00:48:38,625 --> 00:48:40,208 And so in Japan, there's an, 1739 00:48:40,583 --> 00:48:41,833 there's an advantage in actually 1740 00:48:41,833 --> 00:48:43,750 owning, um, a, an equity 1741 00:48:43,750 --> 00:48:45,375 versus owning Bitcoin directly. 1742 00:48:45,666 --> 00:48:47,083 Um, and it, it, it looks like 1743 00:48:47,083 --> 00:48:48,583 there's some advantages for New 1744 00:48:48,583 --> 00:48:50,291 Zealand tax residents in owning 1745 00:48:50,416 --> 00:48:51,916 an equity versus owning Bitcoin 1746 00:48:51,916 --> 00:48:54,041 directly, um, from the tax that 1747 00:48:54,083 --> 00:48:55,958 that's, um, that that's payable on, 1748 00:48:55,958 --> 00:48:57,458 on a gain that, that could occur. 1749 00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:00,250 Um, and so there's, yeah. 1750 00:49:00,250 --> 00:49:01,833 So when it's, there's a, there's 1751 00:49:01,833 --> 00:49:02,833 a range of different reasons as 1752 00:49:02,833 --> 00:49:03,875 to why you would own a Bitcoin 1753 00:49:03,875 --> 00:49:05,083 treasury, but sometimes it 1754 00:49:05,083 --> 00:49:06,791 could be what's the most tax 1755 00:49:06,791 --> 00:49:07,958 efficient way to, to actually 1756 00:49:07,958 --> 00:49:09,458 be able to, to, to do that. 1757 00:49:10,625 --> 00:49:10,916 Yeah. 1758 00:49:10,916 --> 00:49:12,041 That, that's really interesting. 1759 00:49:12,041 --> 00:49:13,416 So what would define 1760 00:49:13,416 --> 00:49:14,250 a Bitcoin treasury? 1761 00:49:14,250 --> 00:49:15,458 Is it merely a company 1762 00:49:15,458 --> 00:49:16,500 that owns Bitcoin? 1763 00:49:16,500 --> 00:49:16,875 Is that what 1764 00:49:17,833 --> 00:49:19,750 I think it's, I think it's 1765 00:49:19,750 --> 00:49:22,166 more than that because you can. 1766 00:49:22,583 --> 00:49:23,916 You very easily go and buy Bitcoin 1767 00:49:23,916 --> 00:49:24,958 and put on your balance sheet. 1768 00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:26,333 But I think it's where those 1769 00:49:26,333 --> 00:49:28,041 companies are consistently buying 1770 00:49:28,208 --> 00:49:30,250 Bitcoin on a, on a regular basis. 1771 00:49:30,416 --> 00:49:31,750 Um, and, and looking to do 1772 00:49:31,750 --> 00:49:32,750 that and looking for then 1773 00:49:32,750 --> 00:49:34,708 ways to continually keep 1774 00:49:34,708 --> 00:49:35,750 on maximizing the amount of 1775 00:49:35,916 --> 00:49:36,708 Bitcoin that you're holding on 1776 00:49:36,708 --> 00:49:37,791 your, on your balance sheet. 1777 00:49:37,833 --> 00:49:40,208 Um, and so yeah, there's, you 1778 00:49:40,208 --> 00:49:41,000 know, obviously companies like 1779 00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:42,666 strategy and Meta Planete that 1780 00:49:42,666 --> 00:49:44,000 have been very successful and, 1781 00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:44,916 and being able to do that. 1782 00:49:46,208 --> 00:49:46,500 Yeah. 1783 00:49:47,166 --> 00:49:47,458 Yeah. 1784 00:49:47,833 --> 00:49:49,125 And I mean, um, I mean, my 1785 00:49:49,125 --> 00:49:50,291 personal biases obviously 1786 00:49:50,291 --> 00:49:51,958 owning, owning Bitcoin directly. 1787 00:49:51,958 --> 00:49:53,458 Like I don't necessarily care 1788 00:49:53,458 --> 00:49:55,125 about just the price exposure. 1789 00:49:55,125 --> 00:49:56,750 I want to have a piece of like 1790 00:49:56,750 --> 00:49:59,041 this scarce asset ever created. 1791 00:49:59,666 --> 00:49:59,833 Yeah. 1792 00:49:59,875 --> 00:50:01,708 Um, you know, so that's, 1793 00:50:01,708 --> 00:50:03,666 yeah, I, I'm definitely 1794 00:50:03,666 --> 00:50:05,666 biased in that regard. 1795 00:50:07,041 --> 00:50:07,125 Yeah. 1796 00:50:07,125 --> 00:50:08,000 And I, I think that makes, 1797 00:50:08,041 --> 00:50:09,041 makes sense for everyone 1798 00:50:09,041 --> 00:50:10,458 to, to be able to do that. 1799 00:50:10,750 --> 00:50:12,500 Um, I. Yeah. 1800 00:50:12,500 --> 00:50:13,375 And so I think that 1801 00:50:13,375 --> 00:50:14,166 that makes sense. 1802 00:50:14,208 --> 00:50:17,000 Uh, this is potentially a way to 1803 00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:18,541 be able to outperform that asset 1804 00:50:18,625 --> 00:50:20,250 class, but, you know, time will 1805 00:50:20,250 --> 00:50:21,625 tell whether that's the case or 1806 00:50:21,625 --> 00:50:23,708 not, and so we'll, we'll see. 1807 00:50:24,625 --> 00:50:24,833 Yeah. 1808 00:50:25,208 --> 00:50:26,541 And I'm very curious because you're 1809 00:50:26,541 --> 00:50:28,166 a publicly listed company, are 1810 00:50:28,166 --> 00:50:29,875 there any restrictions in terms 1811 00:50:29,875 --> 00:50:31,791 of what announcements you are and 1812 00:50:31,791 --> 00:50:33,833 not allowed to make in advance? 1813 00:50:33,833 --> 00:50:34,791 Like, are you allowed to 1814 00:50:34,791 --> 00:50:36,333 disclose that you've, you know, 1815 00:50:36,333 --> 00:50:37,458 are you going to purchase more 1816 00:50:37,708 --> 00:50:38,875 Bitcoin or is that something 1817 00:50:38,875 --> 00:50:40,791 you can only say after the fact? 1818 00:50:41,458 --> 00:50:43,666 Yeah, so as a public company, 1819 00:50:43,958 --> 00:50:46,416 um, yeah, generally you, 1820 00:50:46,416 --> 00:50:48,166 you're only, um, saying what 1821 00:50:48,166 --> 00:50:49,208 you're gonna do once it has 1822 00:50:49,208 --> 00:50:50,166 actually been announced. 1823 00:50:50,500 --> 00:50:51,750 Um, and so we announced, I guess, 1824 00:50:51,750 --> 00:50:52,833 to the market previously that 1825 00:50:53,208 --> 00:50:55,375 this is our intention was to, to 1826 00:50:55,458 --> 00:50:56,666 own Bitcoin on our balance sheet. 1827 00:50:57,041 --> 00:50:58,916 Um, and so when we buy 1828 00:50:59,125 --> 00:51:00,250 Bitcoin, um, we would 1829 00:51:00,250 --> 00:51:01,250 announce that to the market. 1830 00:51:02,083 --> 00:51:03,458 So we're, we're, we're currently 1831 00:51:03,625 --> 00:51:05,333 not buying any Bitcoin, um, 1832 00:51:07,041 --> 00:51:09,416 because of the, the A SX rule that, 1833 00:51:09,416 --> 00:51:10,583 that, um, we've come up against. 1834 00:51:11,833 --> 00:51:13,208 So once we transition into the, 1835 00:51:13,208 --> 00:51:15,458 into the nzx, um, then yeah, 1836 00:51:15,625 --> 00:51:16,791 we would, we would start being, 1837 00:51:16,791 --> 00:51:17,958 being able to buy Bitcoin again. 1838 00:51:19,625 --> 00:51:20,208 Yeah. 1839 00:51:20,916 --> 00:51:22,083 Oh, you're not buying the deep. 1840 00:51:22,458 --> 00:51:22,708 Exactly. 1841 00:51:23,333 --> 00:51:24,208 I remember everyone 1842 00:51:24,208 --> 00:51:26,166 was celebrating 109. 1843 00:51:26,166 --> 00:51:27,041 Like he was a very 1844 00:51:27,041 --> 00:51:28,916 welcome, welcome change. 1845 00:51:28,916 --> 00:51:30,291 And this is what's so funny to 1846 00:51:30,333 --> 00:51:32,125 me about Bitcoin is like our 1847 00:51:32,125 --> 00:51:34,375 fear greed index is broken. 1848 00:51:36,250 --> 00:51:37,458 It's broken, it's the inverse. 1849 00:51:38,583 --> 00:51:39,291 Yeah, that's right. 1850 00:51:40,458 --> 00:51:42,958 Um, yeah, but I, I think it's 1851 00:51:42,958 --> 00:51:44,666 interesting 'cause it's, we 1852 00:51:44,666 --> 00:51:45,791 view it when the price drops 1853 00:51:45,791 --> 00:51:46,791 as like there's an opportunity 1854 00:51:46,791 --> 00:51:48,458 to actually accumulate more. 1855 00:51:48,958 --> 00:51:50,875 Um, and that's because we've 1856 00:51:50,875 --> 00:51:52,041 got a deep understanding of, 1857 00:51:52,458 --> 00:51:53,708 of what actually it is that 1858 00:51:53,708 --> 00:51:55,208 you, that, that, that we own. 1859 00:51:55,750 --> 00:51:58,541 Um, whereas an outsider looking 1860 00:51:58,541 --> 00:51:59,500 at example, oh my God, like 1861 00:51:59,500 --> 00:52:00,583 Bitcoin's just actually, 1862 00:52:01,125 --> 00:52:02,208 um, dropped a huge amount. 1863 00:52:02,458 --> 00:52:03,625 Um, and someone said to me the 1864 00:52:03,625 --> 00:52:04,500 other day, but like, you know, 1865 00:52:04,500 --> 00:52:05,416 there was some, someone who 1866 00:52:05,416 --> 00:52:06,625 had an, an enormous holding. 1867 00:52:07,250 --> 00:52:08,791 Actually just sold a large 1868 00:52:08,791 --> 00:52:09,625 amount of Bitcoin, is 1869 00:52:09,625 --> 00:52:10,500 that, that's really bad. 1870 00:52:10,500 --> 00:52:11,250 And I'm like, well, actually 1871 00:52:11,250 --> 00:52:12,500 that's a really positive thing 1872 00:52:12,500 --> 00:52:13,916 for, for the Bitcoin network 1873 00:52:13,916 --> 00:52:15,500 because suddenly, you know, 1874 00:52:15,500 --> 00:52:16,666 there's a person that's probably 1875 00:52:16,666 --> 00:52:18,083 acquired a large amount of Bitcoin 1876 00:52:18,083 --> 00:52:19,708 very, very early on, they were 1877 00:52:19,708 --> 00:52:21,125 holding that, you know, billions 1878 00:52:21,125 --> 00:52:22,208 of dollars worth of Bitcoin. 1879 00:52:22,583 --> 00:52:23,666 They've now sold it, and 1880 00:52:23,666 --> 00:52:24,416 now that's actually been 1881 00:52:24,416 --> 00:52:25,875 distributed against hundreds 1882 00:52:25,875 --> 00:52:27,500 or thousands of, of people. 1883 00:52:27,916 --> 00:52:29,041 Um, and so it's gonna make 1884 00:52:29,041 --> 00:52:30,125 the overall network a lot 1885 00:52:30,125 --> 00:52:31,458 more stable into the future. 1886 00:52:31,458 --> 00:52:33,208 And, um, that will reduce 1887 00:52:33,416 --> 00:52:34,666 volatility as, as more 1888 00:52:34,666 --> 00:52:35,625 people actually start 1889 00:52:35,625 --> 00:52:36,666 to, to own the asset. 1890 00:52:37,583 --> 00:52:37,708 Mm-hmm. 1891 00:52:38,375 --> 00:52:40,000 And I know a lot of people are 1892 00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:41,916 also concerned about, you know, 1893 00:52:41,916 --> 00:52:44,000 centralization of distribution 1894 00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:46,166 that being heavily skewed towards, 1895 00:52:46,458 --> 00:52:48,000 I guess, those early adopters. 1896 00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:50,333 But, um, I think it is a positive 1897 00:52:50,333 --> 00:52:51,416 sign that, you know, that 1898 00:52:51,416 --> 00:52:53,208 people do have pressure to sell. 1899 00:52:53,250 --> 00:52:55,083 Like if you've been holding Bitcoin 1900 00:52:55,083 --> 00:52:57,500 for 10 years, you wanna reap 1901 00:52:57,500 --> 00:52:59,208 the fruits of your conviction. 1902 00:52:59,291 --> 00:52:59,791 Yeah, that's 1903 00:52:59,791 --> 00:52:59,916 right. 1904 00:53:00,041 --> 00:53:00,583 That's right. 1905 00:53:00,958 --> 00:53:01,250 Yeah. 1906 00:53:01,791 --> 00:53:02,750 And I think, you know, if 1907 00:53:02,750 --> 00:53:04,250 you are holding, you know. 1908 00:53:04,958 --> 00:53:05,916 Billions of dollars of 1909 00:53:05,916 --> 00:53:07,375 Bitcoin, that that came from 1910 00:53:07,375 --> 00:53:08,958 very little amounts of money. 1911 00:53:09,041 --> 00:53:10,708 Um, do you wanna be able to have 1912 00:53:10,708 --> 00:53:11,958 the ability to, to spend that? 1913 00:53:12,666 --> 00:53:14,666 Um, and so yeah, I think 1914 00:53:14,666 --> 00:53:15,500 that's, that's a positive 1915 00:53:15,500 --> 00:53:16,291 thing for the network. 1916 00:53:17,833 --> 00:53:19,000 Yeah, absolutely. 1917 00:53:19,041 --> 00:53:20,416 And will you have been moving 1918 00:53:20,416 --> 00:53:21,791 your business to New Zealand, 1919 00:53:21,791 --> 00:53:24,791 like as in people and buildings? 1920 00:53:24,875 --> 00:53:25,041 Um, we, 1921 00:53:25,375 --> 00:53:27,416 we, yeah, we've, we, we've 1922 00:53:27,416 --> 00:53:28,458 got two new directors that 1923 00:53:28,458 --> 00:53:29,666 have just joined us, um, to 1924 00:53:29,666 --> 00:53:31,041 the board in, in New Zealand. 1925 00:53:31,458 --> 00:53:34,083 Um, but we'll, yeah, we'll continue 1926 00:53:34,083 --> 00:53:36,541 to keep operating our existing, um, 1927 00:53:36,541 --> 00:53:38,000 software business and, and locate 1928 00:53:38,041 --> 00:53:39,500 to, and zoom to your business 1929 00:53:39,500 --> 00:53:40,708 here in the Australian market. 1930 00:53:41,083 --> 00:53:42,500 Um, but I'll be spending a lot 1931 00:53:42,500 --> 00:53:44,416 more time in New Zealand, um, 1932 00:53:44,458 --> 00:53:45,500 than what I previously had. 1933 00:53:46,166 --> 00:53:48,625 And so getting, uh, quite used to 1934 00:53:48,625 --> 00:53:49,791 that flight backwards and forwards 1935 00:53:49,791 --> 00:53:51,500 between Sydney and uh, Auckland. 1936 00:53:52,458 --> 00:53:53,750 I'm, I'm amazed that you 1937 00:53:53,750 --> 00:53:55,125 are not jet lagged right 1938 00:53:55,125 --> 00:53:56,291 now, or maybe you are, 1939 00:53:58,541 --> 00:53:58,708 you just. 1940 00:53:59,666 --> 00:54:01,958 The, the last, uh, two or three 1941 00:54:01,958 --> 00:54:02,916 weeks has certainly been a lot 1942 00:54:02,916 --> 00:54:05,583 of flying and, um, glad this 1943 00:54:05,583 --> 00:54:06,750 week I'm sitting in front of my 1944 00:54:06,750 --> 00:54:08,291 desk and, uh, I'm enjoying that. 1945 00:54:09,541 --> 00:54:11,166 Yeah, I, I would be feeling 1946 00:54:11,166 --> 00:54:12,625 very radioactive on. 1947 00:54:15,125 --> 00:54:15,333 Yeah. 1948 00:54:15,708 --> 00:54:17,166 Um, I'm curious to know, 1949 00:54:17,166 --> 00:54:18,875 Steve, do you have any favorite 1950 00:54:18,875 --> 00:54:21,166 models that you like to track? 1951 00:54:21,166 --> 00:54:22,416 Or, or like, when it comes to 1952 00:54:22,416 --> 00:54:24,208 price, what's your personal 1953 00:54:24,250 --> 00:54:26,375 sort of philosophy on where 1954 00:54:26,375 --> 00:54:27,875 we are headed in Bitcoin? 1955 00:54:27,875 --> 00:54:29,375 Do you have any thoughts on that? 1956 00:54:30,041 --> 00:54:34,208 No, I, I very much, um, I guess 1957 00:54:34,250 --> 00:54:37,083 have got a thesis on the reason 1958 00:54:37,083 --> 00:54:38,375 as to why I think Bitcoin's gonna 1959 00:54:38,375 --> 00:54:41,291 increase into the future, um, and. 1960 00:54:41,833 --> 00:54:43,458 When and how that does that. 1961 00:54:43,625 --> 00:54:44,166 I dunno. 1962 00:54:44,166 --> 00:54:45,458 And I don't think anyone knows. 1963 00:54:45,541 --> 00:54:46,625 Um, and so I spend very little 1964 00:54:46,625 --> 00:54:47,708 time thinking about that. 1965 00:54:48,125 --> 00:54:50,166 Um, other than I've, I've bought 1966 00:54:50,166 --> 00:54:52,458 it and, um, it's something 1967 00:54:52,458 --> 00:54:53,625 that I'll revisit and look at 1968 00:54:53,625 --> 00:54:55,291 in 10 to 20 years time and, 1969 00:54:55,750 --> 00:54:57,416 um, might sell a little bit 1970 00:54:57,416 --> 00:54:58,625 at that point to do something 1971 00:54:58,625 --> 00:55:00,166 with, but at this point in time, 1972 00:55:00,583 --> 00:55:02,083 um, it's, it's an asset to, to 1973 00:55:02,083 --> 00:55:03,583 be held and, and not touched. 1974 00:55:03,666 --> 00:55:05,541 Um, and hopefully, you know, 1975 00:55:05,541 --> 00:55:07,000 it's an asset that continues on 1976 00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:08,750 in generations into the future, 1977 00:55:08,833 --> 00:55:10,166 um, and to be passed down. 1978 00:55:10,291 --> 00:55:12,833 Um, and so, yeah, so I think it's, 1979 00:55:12,916 --> 00:55:15,375 it's, uh, yeah, I think it's, 1980 00:55:15,375 --> 00:55:16,291 it's a real, it's obviously a 1981 00:55:16,291 --> 00:55:17,583 very good store of value and so 1982 00:55:17,583 --> 00:55:18,458 being able to hold that for the 1983 00:55:18,458 --> 00:55:19,833 long term is, is really important. 1984 00:55:19,833 --> 00:55:22,208 And, um, don't get distracted with 1985 00:55:22,208 --> 00:55:24,208 price movements in, in between. 1986 00:55:24,250 --> 00:55:26,375 Um, yeah, lot lots of people 1987 00:55:26,375 --> 00:55:27,625 talk about it, but I tend to 1988 00:55:27,625 --> 00:55:29,166 not care or worry about it. 1989 00:55:29,583 --> 00:55:31,416 Um, it's, it's bought and it's just 1990 00:55:31,416 --> 00:55:32,541 gonna sit there for a long time. 1991 00:55:32,750 --> 00:55:34,625 And so I think, um. 1992 00:55:36,333 --> 00:55:38,291 It is often useful zooming out 1993 00:55:38,291 --> 00:55:40,375 and not being too focused on the, 1994 00:55:40,375 --> 00:55:42,000 the detailed day-to-day movements. 1995 00:55:42,041 --> 00:55:44,291 Um, and if you've got conviction 1996 00:55:44,291 --> 00:55:45,708 in the asset, then just hold it 1997 00:55:45,708 --> 00:55:47,875 and ignore the, the volatility in 1998 00:55:47,875 --> 00:55:49,541 between because, uh, that'll drive 1999 00:55:49,541 --> 00:55:51,666 you crazy and flight strategy. 2000 00:55:51,750 --> 00:55:52,458 Yeah, absolutely. 2001 00:55:52,666 --> 00:55:54,833 Like Ilene got into Bitcoin last 2002 00:55:54,833 --> 00:55:57,000 year and, and we've pretty much, 2003 00:55:57,041 --> 00:55:58,500 everyone's saying, you know, this 2004 00:55:58,500 --> 00:56:00,291 is my first, I guess, ball run 2005 00:56:00,500 --> 00:56:01,833 and everyone's saying we've been 2006 00:56:01,833 --> 00:56:03,375 chop solid eating for months. 2007 00:56:03,375 --> 00:56:06,083 So I, uh, as much as I am not 2008 00:56:06,083 --> 00:56:08,291 like price oriented, I kind of 2009 00:56:08,291 --> 00:56:10,083 just want the experience of like, 2010 00:56:10,541 --> 00:56:12,458 yha, you know, I just, I just, 2011 00:56:12,875 --> 00:56:14,291 I just want the ride, you know, 2012 00:56:17,166 --> 00:56:18,583 and I don't care where it falls 2013 00:56:18,583 --> 00:56:20,583 back to like, uh, I, I just yeah. 2014 00:56:20,583 --> 00:56:22,416 Want that experience of, you 2015 00:56:22,416 --> 00:56:25,875 know, um, yeah, but I'm, I'm. 2016 00:56:26,458 --> 00:56:27,791 This what happens every time I 2017 00:56:27,791 --> 00:56:29,125 go on a tangent, I'll lose the 2018 00:56:29,125 --> 00:56:30,875 question that I wanted to ask you. 2019 00:56:31,166 --> 00:56:33,083 Like seriously every time. 2020 00:56:33,083 --> 00:56:33,375 Yes. 2021 00:56:33,583 --> 00:56:34,416 I remembered. 2022 00:56:34,625 --> 00:56:36,625 Um, I remembered also that 2023 00:56:36,625 --> 00:56:38,916 you sold your car for Bitcoin. 2024 00:56:40,125 --> 00:56:40,416 Yeah. 2025 00:56:40,416 --> 00:56:41,500 And I think that's like smoke. 2026 00:56:42,458 --> 00:56:45,583 Um, you know, like, I guess 2027 00:56:45,583 --> 00:56:48,125 once you get, have a really deep 2028 00:56:48,125 --> 00:56:49,208 conviction in it, then you're 2029 00:56:49,208 --> 00:56:50,375 like looking at everything that 2030 00:56:50,375 --> 00:56:51,791 you're owning and going, how 2031 00:56:51,791 --> 00:56:53,250 do I convert this into Bitcoin? 2032 00:56:53,708 --> 00:56:56,250 Um, and so yeah, that was, 2033 00:56:56,250 --> 00:56:57,791 I had a, a very nice car. 2034 00:56:58,208 --> 00:57:00,791 Um, and yeah, decided that, 2035 00:57:00,791 --> 00:57:02,041 uh, it made more sense holding 2036 00:57:02,041 --> 00:57:03,125 it in, in Bitcoin than, 2037 00:57:03,125 --> 00:57:04,833 than driving a fancy car. 2038 00:57:05,333 --> 00:57:06,291 And, um, yeah, I, 2039 00:57:06,291 --> 00:57:07,125 I don't regret it. 2040 00:57:07,166 --> 00:57:08,708 I enjoy driving that car, but, 2041 00:57:08,750 --> 00:57:10,875 um, yeah, I also enjoy not 2042 00:57:10,875 --> 00:57:13,041 having it and, um, just having 2043 00:57:13,041 --> 00:57:15,000 a pretty normal car and, and, 2044 00:57:15,000 --> 00:57:16,416 and seeing, seeing that money 2045 00:57:16,416 --> 00:57:17,833 grow, um, sitting in Bitcoin. 2046 00:57:18,833 --> 00:57:19,708 Yeah, exactly. 2047 00:57:19,708 --> 00:57:20,875 Plus you can buy that 2048 00:57:20,875 --> 00:57:22,458 car back for a lot less. 2049 00:57:22,541 --> 00:57:22,791 Exactly. 2050 00:57:22,791 --> 00:57:23,375 Like for SATs. 2051 00:57:23,916 --> 00:57:24,416 Exactly. 2052 00:57:24,750 --> 00:57:25,250 Exactly. 2053 00:57:25,458 --> 00:57:25,750 Yeah. 2054 00:57:26,041 --> 00:57:27,083 In, in the future. 2055 00:57:27,250 --> 00:57:28,708 But do you think like Bitcoin 2056 00:57:28,708 --> 00:57:31,000 has sort of changed your, um, 2057 00:57:31,333 --> 00:57:33,500 spending habits and any sort of 2058 00:57:33,500 --> 00:57:35,541 behavioral since you got into it? 2059 00:57:36,541 --> 00:57:40,208 Um, I definitely think like 2060 00:57:40,208 --> 00:57:42,583 it's definitely changed the way 2061 00:57:42,583 --> 00:57:44,500 I would invest in the future. 2062 00:57:44,541 --> 00:57:46,791 And so there's very few things 2063 00:57:46,791 --> 00:57:48,708 that I would invest, invest my 2064 00:57:48,708 --> 00:57:50,583 money in other than than Bitcoin. 2065 00:57:50,625 --> 00:57:52,791 And in fact, the majority 2066 00:57:52,791 --> 00:57:54,291 of my portfolio is Bitcoin 2067 00:57:54,416 --> 00:57:55,833 and or my own company. 2068 00:57:55,958 --> 00:57:57,708 Um, and so that's where e 2069 00:57:57,875 --> 00:57:59,541 everything is, and it's against 2070 00:57:59,541 --> 00:58:00,500 everything that a financial 2071 00:58:00,500 --> 00:58:01,625 planner would, would tell you, 2072 00:58:01,958 --> 00:58:03,750 um, in terms of diversification. 2073 00:58:03,875 --> 00:58:05,875 But I think. 2074 00:58:06,291 --> 00:58:07,583 I don't think diversification 2075 00:58:07,583 --> 00:58:08,833 is necessarily a good thing. 2076 00:58:08,833 --> 00:58:09,833 I think once you actually 2077 00:58:09,833 --> 00:58:11,166 understand what you're 2078 00:58:11,166 --> 00:58:12,583 actually owning and why you're 2079 00:58:12,583 --> 00:58:14,166 owning it, um, you don't 2080 00:58:14,166 --> 00:58:16,000 need di diversification. 2081 00:58:16,083 --> 00:58:19,625 Um, and so, um, yeah, that's, 2082 00:58:19,625 --> 00:58:20,750 that's, that's, that's my, 2083 00:58:20,916 --> 00:58:23,375 my, my advice, my, my, my, my 2084 00:58:23,375 --> 00:58:25,416 view on, on, on, on investing. 2085 00:58:25,458 --> 00:58:28,083 Um, and so yeah, I think it's 2086 00:58:28,083 --> 00:58:29,166 just having conviction and, and 2087 00:58:29,166 --> 00:58:30,333 real deep understanding of what 2088 00:58:30,333 --> 00:58:31,333 you're actually investing in. 2089 00:58:31,333 --> 00:58:33,791 And I think where lots of wealth 2090 00:58:33,791 --> 00:58:35,250 has been created historically, 2091 00:58:35,250 --> 00:58:36,583 it's not actually by being, 2092 00:58:36,583 --> 00:58:38,833 having a di diversified portfolio, 2093 00:58:38,833 --> 00:58:39,708 it's actually where you've got 2094 00:58:39,708 --> 00:58:40,833 real conviction in something 2095 00:58:40,833 --> 00:58:42,666 and that thing is outperformed 2096 00:58:42,666 --> 00:58:44,166 the, the market really well. 2097 00:58:44,583 --> 00:58:45,708 Um, and so obviously there's 2098 00:58:45,708 --> 00:58:46,750 lots of risks associated 2099 00:58:46,750 --> 00:58:47,583 with, with doing that. 2100 00:58:47,916 --> 00:58:49,166 Um, but that's, yeah, 2101 00:58:49,208 --> 00:58:50,125 I'm very comfortable in, 2102 00:58:50,125 --> 00:58:51,041 in taking on that risk. 2103 00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:53,291 Yeah, well, it makes sense. 2104 00:58:53,291 --> 00:58:54,541 The whole advice around 2105 00:58:54,541 --> 00:58:56,333 di diversification came 2106 00:58:56,333 --> 00:58:57,708 from people who championed 2107 00:58:57,708 --> 00:58:58,833 the debt-based system. 2108 00:58:58,833 --> 00:58:59,875 So all of the products that 2109 00:58:59,875 --> 00:59:01,458 they were diversifying against 2110 00:59:01,458 --> 00:59:02,958 were all based around the 2111 00:59:02,958 --> 00:59:05,000 same debt-based products. 2112 00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:06,375 So, you know, when you're in 2113 00:59:06,375 --> 00:59:08,875 something that's got a complete 2114 00:59:08,875 --> 00:59:11,125 supply, su supply, uh, supply 2115 00:59:11,125 --> 00:59:13,041 cap and predictable issuance 2116 00:59:13,041 --> 00:59:15,208 schedule, then it Yeah. 2117 00:59:15,291 --> 00:59:16,791 Like why would you diversify? 2118 00:59:17,125 --> 00:59:17,166 Yeah. 2119 00:59:17,416 --> 00:59:18,833 This is not financial advice, but, 2120 00:59:19,250 --> 00:59:19,333 right. 2121 00:59:19,333 --> 00:59:19,625 Exactly. 2122 00:59:19,625 --> 00:59:20,333 Exactly. 2123 00:59:21,208 --> 00:59:21,333 Uh, 2124 00:59:21,333 --> 00:59:21,625 yeah. 2125 00:59:21,625 --> 00:59:23,916 I think bitcoin's wonderful in that 2126 00:59:23,916 --> 00:59:26,416 sense that everyone is updating 2127 00:59:26,458 --> 00:59:29,333 and renegotiating what they think 2128 00:59:29,333 --> 00:59:30,833 they know about money against 2129 00:59:30,833 --> 00:59:33,166 this new asset, and that's kind 2130 00:59:33,166 --> 00:59:34,458 of the wonderful thing about it. 2131 00:59:35,208 --> 00:59:35,458 Definitely. 2132 00:59:35,458 --> 00:59:37,250 Um, before we close up, do 2133 00:59:37,250 --> 00:59:38,833 you have any sort of final, 2134 00:59:39,000 --> 00:59:40,708 final words that you wanna 2135 00:59:40,708 --> 00:59:42,708 leave with, with the audience? 2136 00:59:43,458 --> 00:59:44,500 Um, yeah. 2137 00:59:44,500 --> 00:59:45,208 Look, I think this is a 2138 00:59:45,208 --> 00:59:47,000 really in interesting time 2139 00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:48,208 in history at the moment. 2140 00:59:48,208 --> 00:59:48,541 Um. 2141 00:59:49,125 --> 00:59:50,666 I think we've gone, Bitcoin's 2142 00:59:50,666 --> 00:59:51,416 gone through this period 2143 00:59:51,416 --> 00:59:53,625 of time where in the early 2144 00:59:53,625 --> 00:59:55,000 days it was a lot of like 2145 00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:56,333 technical people that owned it. 2146 00:59:56,333 --> 00:59:58,416 And now, you know, you're getting 2147 00:59:58,416 --> 00:59:59,333 to this point where there's 2148 00:59:59,333 --> 01:00:00,958 institutional people that, 2149 01:00:00,958 --> 01:00:02,208 the institutional investors 2150 01:00:02,208 --> 01:00:03,958 that are now interested in it. 2151 01:00:03,958 --> 01:00:05,750 And so I think with that 2152 01:00:05,875 --> 01:00:07,666 will become, Bitcoin will 2153 01:00:07,666 --> 01:00:08,875 become more, more mainstream 2154 01:00:08,875 --> 01:00:09,958 in the, in the years ahead. 2155 01:00:09,958 --> 01:00:11,000 And so it's, yeah, I think this 2156 01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:12,666 is definitely a very interesting, 2157 01:00:12,666 --> 01:00:14,541 exciting time and particularly, 2158 01:00:14,541 --> 01:00:15,208 you know, that's why you're 2159 01:00:15,208 --> 01:00:17,458 seeing a lot of these bitcoin 2160 01:00:17,458 --> 01:00:18,500 treasury businesses coming 2161 01:00:18,500 --> 01:00:20,291 about because the mainstream is 2162 01:00:20,291 --> 01:00:21,958 now wanting to be able to get 2163 01:00:21,958 --> 01:00:23,541 some sort of Bitcoin exposure. 2164 01:00:23,708 --> 01:00:25,583 Um, and so yeah, it's, it's gonna 2165 01:00:25,583 --> 01:00:28,000 be a, an exciting, uh, years ahead 2166 01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:29,458 as this, uh, starts to play out. 2167 01:00:29,458 --> 01:00:31,375 And we'll see how the world 2168 01:00:31,416 --> 01:00:32,958 transitions from the, the fiat 2169 01:00:32,958 --> 01:00:34,250 world into the Bitcoin world. 2170 01:00:36,166 --> 01:00:37,083 Absolutely. 2171 01:00:37,083 --> 01:00:37,791 Absolutely. 2172 01:00:37,791 --> 01:00:39,916 This reminds me of, um, the 2173 01:00:39,916 --> 01:00:42,083 chart by BlackRock's a TF 2174 01:00:42,083 --> 01:00:44,166 launch, comparing it to gold. 2175 01:00:44,166 --> 01:00:45,333 Like you just see, like 2176 01:00:46,166 --> 01:00:46,708 Yeah, right. 2177 01:00:47,500 --> 01:00:48,333 I haven't seen that chart. 2178 01:00:48,333 --> 01:00:49,041 That's, that would be 2179 01:00:49,041 --> 01:00:49,958 a, a good chart to see. 2180 01:00:50,916 --> 01:00:51,333 Oh yeah. 2181 01:00:51,333 --> 01:00:51,541 Yeah. 2182 01:00:51,541 --> 01:00:53,500 It's like they, uh, yeah. 2183 01:00:53,583 --> 01:00:54,541 I, I'll send it to you as 2184 01:00:54,541 --> 01:00:55,541 soon as we end this call. 2185 01:00:55,541 --> 01:00:56,708 It's a really good chart. 2186 01:00:56,708 --> 01:00:58,458 You just see adoption like what, 2187 01:00:58,458 --> 01:01:00,166 what Bitcoin took 12 months to do. 2188 01:01:00,166 --> 01:01:01,250 It took gold et TF 2189 01:01:01,250 --> 01:01:02,458 five years, like, 2190 01:01:02,625 --> 01:01:02,833 wow. 2191 01:01:03,458 --> 01:01:03,708 Yeah. 2192 01:01:03,750 --> 01:01:04,083 Yeah. 2193 01:01:04,083 --> 01:01:04,625 No, it makes sense. 2194 01:01:04,750 --> 01:01:06,083 Makes total sense. 2195 01:01:07,583 --> 01:01:07,791 Yeah. 2196 01:01:07,791 --> 01:01:08,208 All right. 2197 01:01:08,208 --> 01:01:09,583 Thanks for your time, Steve. 2198 01:01:09,583 --> 01:01:10,000 Thanks. 2199 01:01:10,083 --> 01:01:11,291 Yeah, thanks for having me.