Speaker 1: welcome to svelte radio
Speaker 1: Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of Svelte Radio. We're back.
Speaker 1: Yes.
Speaker 1: Hello Brittany.
Speaker 2: Hello.
Speaker 2: Hi Kev. Great to see you all again.
Speaker 1: Yeah, likewise. How were your holidays? What did you do? Anything fun?
Speaker 2: I'm not a holiday man, but this time it was great just chilling out.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3: So you
Speaker 2: don't
Speaker 1: like Christmas? Is that what you're...
Speaker 1: Ah, yes. That
Speaker 2: is why. Not a fan.
Speaker 2: And ever since I had kids, where the stakes are a bit higher now,
Speaker 2: because kids love Christmas.
Speaker 2: I dislike it even more.
Speaker 1: That's interesting.
Speaker 1: I've heard a lot of people that become parents
Speaker 1: kind of rediscover the joy of Christmas
Speaker 1: because
Speaker 3: they get
Speaker 1: to live Christmas through their kids.
Speaker 1: That's my
Speaker 3: wife.
Speaker 1: I see.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 1: So you just have to do all the other boring stuff.
Speaker 2: We still have Christmas decorations up in January,
Speaker 2: end of January.
Speaker 4: We just put ours away two days ago.
Speaker 4: I was like, well, my oldest daughter, her birthday is January 17th.
Speaker 4: And she told us we couldn't take them down until after birthday.
Speaker 4: And so the other day I was like, okay, enough.
Speaker 4: Like I drug the box up and I'm like, put it away.
Speaker 4: It's got to go.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I don't want to be a bus girl.
Speaker 2: I think it's great that if you buy stuff.
Speaker 2: I think
Speaker 4: I enjoy more now at my age giving and seeing the joy that they get from receiving the gift,
Speaker 4: like the kids and stuff, then I personally don't really care anymore.
Speaker 4: I
Speaker 3: actually find it
Speaker 4: very difficult to shop for my husband and he still wants a
Speaker 4: gift and I hate like doing it.
Speaker 4: I just like, just like go buy your own gift or something.
Speaker 4: I don't know, but he wants you to put thought into it and care.
Speaker 4: And I'm just, I don't have enough left in me to care.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 1: Have you heard about Claude bot?
Speaker 1: It's all on the internet,
Speaker 2: right?
Speaker 2: I guess that could buy a kid.
Speaker 4: But it also like
Speaker 2: empty like your bank account.
Speaker 4: Can you tell me what to do?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. So CloudBot is, I actually think they changed the name.
Speaker 1: So it's called MaltBot now because of some, because of
Speaker 2: the trademark.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I thought you were saying something like Cloud Code.
Speaker 1: Right. It's very similar, right? But it's
Speaker 4: a different company.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So MaltBot, it's basically like a personal assistant kind of that runs
Speaker 1: on your computer and you can have it read your email
Speaker 1: and then you just chat to it through,
Speaker 1: I don't know, WhatsApp or Telegram or iMessage
Speaker 1: and just goes and does stuff on your computer for you.
Speaker 4: So you can have it like, oh.
Speaker 4: - I can chat with it through that.
Speaker 4: It doesn't have like a web GUI
Speaker 4: or a desktop app or anything?
Speaker 4: - It
Speaker 1: does, but if you have it on WhatsApp,
Speaker 1: you can just chat to it on your iPhone, right?
Speaker 1: - That is pretty cool.
Speaker 1: - And you can just have it
Speaker 2: say like,
Speaker 1: add a calendar
Speaker 2: event, blah, blah.
Speaker 2: - I guess the idea is also that like your whole family,
Speaker 2: it's a family of assistants that everyone has
Speaker 4: to use claude i i do that i have the app on my phone
Speaker 4: i have the desktop version i have claude code for cli stuff and i had it create an mcp server that
Speaker 4: will create an apple note every two weeks for my invoice
Speaker 3: oh nice wrap
Speaker 4: the email like i i have claude
Speaker 4: do so much stuff for me like my skincare routine i had it go through all of this
Speaker 2: does claude do
Speaker 2: your skincare routine it
Speaker 4: it told me like the order to put everything
Speaker 2: on and what
Speaker 4: to do morning and
Speaker 4: night like it it helped me with that like i mean everything like i'm just trying to get into using
Speaker 4: it more because it's been
Speaker 3: really helpful
Speaker 4: at like organizing a lot of things that are tedious and
Speaker 4: you don't want to do yeah i i'm all for it take all my data i don't care
Speaker 1: well that's i guess that's
Speaker 1: the the kind of the scary thing with with malt pot that it does what claw does but i think it
Speaker 1: has even you can give it even more access
Speaker 3: so you can just like
Speaker 1: let it do everything um
Speaker 3: i think
Speaker 3: scott
Speaker 1: tulinski posted posted something on on x about how he had let me see if i can find the
Speaker 4: i
Speaker 4: don't go to that site anymore i don't i can't no
Speaker 1: i i know i know a lot of people don't but the tweet
Speaker 1: was yeah so uh things my quad bot has done reorganized my nas created personalized custom
Speaker 1: meditations started work on to-dos that were falling behind cataloging meals and recipes
Speaker 1: adjusting custom total workouts blah blah blah tail scale like it just goes on it's just like
Speaker 1: random stuff kind of
Speaker 4: want to be done all of that you can do if you wanted to stay in the same
Speaker 4: ecosystem like i pay for the max subscription so mine's a hundred dollars a month so if you're
Speaker 4: already in that like you could do
Speaker 3: all of
Speaker 4: that i do my workouts through that and it'll add it straight
Speaker 4: to my google calendar so it's on my calendar like yeah it is it
Speaker 1: is it is very cool like like it's
Speaker 1: super it's super nice um
Speaker 3: yeah i've
Speaker 1: been vibe coding like crazy these these last few weeks and i i don't
Speaker 1: think i've written more than like 10 lines of code and i've vibe coded a gym tracking app i can
Speaker 1: actually show it to you um
Speaker 3: so if you go to
Speaker 1: gym dot let me actually post link here um this is basically
Speaker 1: just like I told it, build me a gym workout tracking app that works in the browser, but
Speaker 1: that also has sync capabilities.
Speaker 3: And so I can
Speaker 1: just enter this text string and then I can sync it with
Speaker 1: my phone and I can do my workouts on the app. And it's just like
Speaker 4: Oh,
Speaker 4: does it use query parameters or like
Speaker 1: I don't
Speaker 1: remember.
Speaker 4: What does it do? Like I haven't
Speaker 1: really looked at the code, right? That's the thing.
Speaker 4: You're just like,
Speaker 4: I don't care.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it just tracks my exercises that I've done and like the volume and like how much I've lifted and stuff.
Speaker 1: And I mean, I had to, I've been vibe coding so much.
Speaker 1: I had to upgrade to the, like the 20X
Speaker 3: max plan.
Speaker 1: And I had to get two other subscriptions, two other services because I'm using so much AI at LLMs at the moment.
Speaker 3: For
Speaker 1: example, I vibe coded CMS for conferences that I'm almost done with.
Speaker 1: Haven't really written a lot of code for this.
Speaker 1: That's for Svelte Summit, obviously, right?
Speaker 1: I see.
Speaker 1: And it's just got like, oh, CFP handling.
Speaker 1: It's got sponsor handling, like everything.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And it's like, it just does it for you.
Speaker 4: Have you ever tried Lovable?
Speaker 1: I have not.
Speaker 4: I did see a video
Speaker 1: today with like a Swedish influencer that went to their offices because
Speaker 1: it's here in Stockholm.
Speaker 1: right
Speaker 4: oh and the
Speaker 1: the guy that started lovable he he lives in like a i don't know if you call it a
Speaker 1: collective in english like so he lives with like 12 other people and he's just like
Speaker 4: a
Speaker 1: billionaire
Speaker 1: right
Speaker 4: oh my god yeah that's very random i i said that because uh the reason like my company got
Speaker 4: into ai or is getting into ai is like lovable was one of the ceo's first like forays into it and she
Speaker 4: would give
Speaker 3: it like
Speaker 4: the specifications and then she'd be able to see it and you can actually see
Speaker 4: the website like as it's working so i think
Speaker 1: that's one of the benefits
Speaker 4: of that one but i've never
Speaker 4: worked with it yeah
Speaker 1: i i the thing with with most of these like ai kind of services is i get the
Speaker 1: feeling that you you can get 80 there but then you kind of have to work
Speaker 3: manually with
Speaker 1: it to get it to
Speaker 1: work, but I haven't tried lovable. So maybe that's not, maybe that's not the case.
Speaker 1: So that, that, that was the, this week's AI chat.
Speaker 1: Unless you guys.
Speaker 4: I thought we were just going to go like full AI. Like that's the
Speaker 1: title.
Speaker 2: Inviting a fourth member to the radio, which is like this robot that talks.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah. Just like.
Speaker 4: We don't even have to talk to each
Speaker 2: other. And then the listeners,
Speaker 2: they can also have their AI listen to it. So they don't have to, I mean,
Speaker 2: That's the piece I feel AI is
Speaker 4: missing, is voice.
Speaker 4: So we have Siri and
Speaker 3: Google.
Speaker 3: But
Speaker 4: if I do, I don't feel like at least Claude can't speak to me.
Speaker 4: And me speaking to Claude works 75% of the time
Speaker 3: if you just
Speaker 4: try to talk into it.
Speaker 4: But it doesn't always translate my words correctly.
Speaker 4: And it's not fluent.
Speaker 4: And it's not like I'm talking to someone.
Speaker 4: That would be.
Speaker 2: So that's, I don't know if you, I think if you're on an iPhone, you don't have, but on
Speaker 2: an Android, there's this Gemini thing.
Speaker 2: And it has like this live talk where you can actually have a conversation and you can interrupt
Speaker 2: each other.
Speaker 2: I think that's, well, the AI doesn't interrupt you, but you can interrupt the agent.
Speaker 2: Interesting.
Speaker 4: So I think you can download Gemini, but I, I did end up having to switch the dark side
Speaker 4: of getting an iPhone instead of an Android.
Speaker 4: I've been an Android user and fan for a very long time, but
Speaker 2: finally, I mean, now they have
Speaker 2: a deal.
Speaker 2: Gemini
Speaker 1: will be
Speaker 1: probably going to be a thing on Apple
Speaker 1: on iPhones someday
Speaker 2: but I think one thing just to stay on that track
Speaker 2: one thing that annoys me a lot is like
Speaker 2: when I do try to talk with
Speaker 2: Gemini and I press this microphone button
Speaker 2: it's not pushed to talk
Speaker 2: it's just like when I have a pause
Speaker 2: it just starts responding to me
Speaker 3: please let
Speaker 2: me think
Speaker 2: please let me just have a slight talk
Speaker 1: before you
Speaker 2: into it
Speaker 1: yeah because humans can do that
Speaker 1: right humans can see that
Speaker 1: probably going to say something else yeah after you yeah all right llms honestly i'm i'm a bit
Speaker 1: scared about the future
Speaker 2: oh i'm not i'm gonna be great yeah
Speaker 1: well
Speaker 4: i i think in
Speaker 1: what way right
Speaker 4: there still needs to be regulation and like in the u.s at least we have no regulation on it at all and
Speaker 4: how much are we destroying the earth with this so like i i worry about like that piece of things
Speaker 4: more than like ai taking over everything which i mean maybe but it just needs and maybe it won't
Speaker 4: need so much oversight one day but it needs so much oversight right now
Speaker 2: there's a lot of energy
Speaker 2: and that's uh it's a bit too much yeah yeah
Speaker 1: i mean for me it's more of a like does it even
Speaker 1: matter what framework we're using does it even matter
Speaker 3: what tools we're using because
Speaker 1: like why
Speaker 1: would I why would anyone care if I if you can just or
Speaker 4: the users,
Speaker 4: that's why. So what is the most performant for the users? What
Speaker 4: can we use to get there? And that would be the only reasons
Speaker 4: like, it doesn't matter what's on our end, the developer
Speaker 4: experience matters zero anymore. Like I feel like,
Speaker 3: like
Speaker 4: our whole
Speaker 4: likes felt stuff is just like, built on developer experience.
Speaker 4: And now it's like,
Speaker 2: I don't agree with that.
Speaker 4: You don't?
Speaker 4: In
Speaker 2: my experience, the A18s will give you like 70%.
Speaker 2: You have to bring the 30% on your own to make it high quality.
Speaker 3: I agree with that.
Speaker 3: And for that to be easier,
Speaker 2: you want the DX, you want the framework to be the right one.
Speaker 2: And yeah, I don't believe in eyes closed, Vibe coding can bring you to an actual great multi-million
Speaker 2: people product.
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 1: There are a lot of crappy products out there that make a lot of money.
Speaker 2: That is true.
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.
Speaker 1: You make a lot of crappy
Speaker 2: products.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, on the other hand, anyone can make an exercise app like me, right?
Speaker 1: No.
Speaker 4: So maybe it's
Speaker 1: the case that...
Speaker 4: A time ago, right?
Speaker 4: But he actually coded it.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Wasted his time, didn't he?
Speaker 1: I'm just kidding, Scott.
Speaker 1: if you're listening.
Speaker 1: All right. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about Svelte then on this very happy note
Speaker 1: of LLMs taking over or maybe not.
Speaker 1: So what is new in Svelte since last year?
Speaker 1: It's a new year.
Speaker 1: It's been there's been so many things that I've
Speaker 2: been changing.
Speaker 2: I mean, it feels like there's a lot of loose ends
Speaker 2: that needs to be tied up soon.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Remote
Speaker 1: functions.
Speaker 2: Yeah. SvelteKit 3.0 at some point.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I'm
Speaker 4: very excited.
Speaker 4: Big milestone, right? Because focus has shifted now from regular spelt to spelt kit.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it does feel like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I guess we're all just waiting for remote funks to become stable
Speaker 1: so we can start using them in production. I'm already using them in production.
Speaker 2: I think it's a very
Speaker 1: impressive
Speaker 2: paradigm. Now we've seen a couple of takes on how do you do
Speaker 2: remote functions or remote APIs in your meta framework. And I think the ones in SvelteKit
Speaker 2: are something I've seen before. And so I think that's very important.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. Agreed. Have you had a chance to try them yet, Brittany?
Speaker 1: Nope.
Speaker 1: Remote functions? Oh, you're missing out.
Speaker 3: Maybe actually
Speaker 1: wait until they're stable.
Speaker 1: So you don't have to like, "Oh, I want to use this. I want to use this." But you can't because
Speaker 1: it's experiment so understand
Speaker 4: like when i first started coding i loved it so much i was like
Speaker 4: taking in everything and you want to like build everything and make it better and iterate on it
Speaker 4: but then a lot of times i would run into people and they were just like going day to day day in
Speaker 4: day out just kind of like trying to do their job and check out and i kind of like am to that point
Speaker 4: to where i understand that and that's because like when you're actually building like a brand
Speaker 4: new product and you have to be like building new features and stuff you have no time to like look
Speaker 4: at all of this stuff like you're just like oh i'm doing this this
Speaker 2: is and then totally you're
Speaker 4: just
Speaker 4: always reiterating on it and there's no time for refactoring there's no time for looking at your
Speaker 4: code base and going oh why did i do that
Speaker 1: right right well you know now you can have claude
Speaker 4: yeah you have to speed on the
Speaker 1: latest news and stuff
Speaker 4: yeah or you
Speaker 1: can use the new svelte society
Speaker 1: website
Speaker 4: oh good see what i did there yeah yeah yeah my
Speaker 1: segway um i think i mentioned the the
Speaker 1: new svelte society website uh on on the podcast before but but not i haven't really talked that
Speaker 1: much about it um it's been going nicely we've we've got a bunch of submitters uh and people
Speaker 1: adding stuff to it.
Speaker 1: So that's always nice to see.
Speaker 1: I've restructured it a bit.
Speaker 1: I like the search and everything
Speaker 1: works without JavaScript, which
Speaker 1: is kind of
Speaker 3: cool.
Speaker 1: It's an
Speaker 1: omni-search bar, so you
Speaker 5: can
Speaker 5: search in tags and stuff.
Speaker 5: Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's pretty nice.
Speaker 1: And tomorrow, or a couple
Speaker 1: of days, we'll see
Speaker 1: when it's done, I'm actually pushing
Speaker 1: a new feature where people
Speaker 1: or companies can submit jobs
Speaker 1: on the website.
Speaker 4: can i like website on live
Speaker 1: absolutely absolutely what's what's the nav
Speaker 4: on the left doesn't have
Speaker 4: cursor pointer and like there's no like link tree so when you hover over it you don't see where
Speaker 4: you're going
Speaker 1: what mine
Speaker 2: has cursor pointer
Speaker 1: yeah mine as well is
Speaker 4: it because i'm in full screen
Speaker 4: no i'm i'm on a macbook and i'm in chrome and i have no cursor pointer and i don't see the links
Speaker 1: That is weird because I can see the links and I have a cursor as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, me too.
Speaker 2: I
Speaker 4: can see
Speaker 2: Cat's cursor.
Speaker 4: Maybe it's just a bug.
Speaker 4: I mean, I'm in full
Speaker 1: screen and I'm on
Speaker 4: a trackpad, so maybe
Speaker 1: it's me.
Speaker 1: It
Speaker 3: could very well
Speaker 1: be a bug.
Speaker 1: It's like browser
Speaker 4: difference thing.
Speaker 4: Oh, that's another thing.
Speaker 4: I don't want to go on a tangent yet, so keep talking.
Speaker 4: I'll save it in my brain maybe.
Speaker 1: All right.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so basically people can post their jobs on the site.
Speaker 1: I'm sure you folks have seen the job postings channel on the Svelte Discord.
Speaker 1: And unfortunately, like the quality of submissions and like the replies to posts, not the best.
Speaker 1: Like it's very often low quality, like people that don't even read the
Speaker 4: text and stuff.
Speaker 4: Are you trying to take Svelte jobs from
Speaker 1: the...
Speaker 1: discord
Speaker 4: isn't it buddy and chris uh that do uh svelte jobs the
Speaker 1: yeah yeah but that that's that's
Speaker 1: another site that's a that's uh i know i knew what
Speaker 4: you were talking about i just like uh svelte jobs
Speaker 4: is a site but you can get the newsletter sent to you and like so are you trying to take that from
Speaker 4: them and put it on to the website i mean
Speaker 1: it depends on how you how you look at it it's definitely a
Speaker 1: competitor right of some
Speaker 4: sort first
Speaker 1: off i think there's definitely room for for more than one
Speaker 1: job board.
Speaker 1: But I've been talking about this job board for years.
Speaker 1: So I feel like it's fine.
Speaker 1: But yeah.
Speaker 1: So it is a bit of a competitor, but I think we can both manage.
Speaker 1: Anyway, so that's one feature.
Speaker 1: Another feature is companies can buy sponsor slots on the website.
Speaker 1: So that's interesting.
Speaker 1: And also there's a newsletter coming as well.
Speaker 3: Oh, that's great.
Speaker 2: RSS? Or without RSS?
Speaker 1: I haven't implemented RSS, but the idea is that the newsletters will be on the site as well.
Speaker 1: So you can go and read it in the feed. That's the idea at least.
Speaker 4: But it's
Speaker 1: not implemented yet. Sorry?
Speaker 4: Is there a way that we could go to Danny and maybe see if we could integrate what's new in Svelte?
Speaker 4: Because I know a while ago he was looking for help and wanting someone to do that.
Speaker 1: So I think the issue with like the, so for those that don't know, there's a Svelte newsletter that you can subscribe to.
Speaker 1: I think it's on Substack at the moment.
Speaker 1: But the issue is that like there's always this discussion that pops up about like, oh, where do we host the emailing list?
Speaker 1: Where do we do this?
Speaker 1: How do we do this?
Speaker 1: And blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 1: And the issue isn't so much how to do it.
Speaker 1: it's more like deciding and having a lot of people in this in the svelte maintainers group decide on
Speaker 1: what to do
Speaker 2: because
Speaker 1: i don't think they can they can come to a decision on on what they want to do i
Speaker 1: think it's a huge missed opportunity to not have like a proper subscribe button on the on the
Speaker 1: svelte website for example but
Speaker 2: i mean it
Speaker 1: is what it is um
Speaker 2: but so i mean on svelte society if you're
Speaker 2: curating now like a feed of news then like putting those into a weekly or
Speaker 4: monthly
Speaker 2: email or
Speaker 4: i mean
Speaker 4: that's essentially what oh you mean the the post on svelte society yeah
Speaker 2: i mean
Speaker 4: because those are
Speaker 4: also
Speaker 2: news right i mean
Speaker 4: yeah you'll
Speaker 2: probably have to like hand curate and you can't just put in every
Speaker 2: post and i think
Speaker 4: no he's gonna claude curate
Speaker 2: of course no
Speaker 3: i didn't say which
Speaker 1: hand it was
Speaker 1: I actually used a package called betterSvelte email,
Speaker 1: which lets you write emails in Svelte.
Speaker 3: So you write
Speaker 1: like a Svelte,
Speaker 1: you write like a template using Svelte,
Speaker 1: and then you just pass in like props to it
Speaker 1: and it renders out in a
Speaker 4: proper email.
Speaker 4: That sounds awesome.
Speaker 4: Do you remember more from Stockholm?
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 4: The one with the really cute mascot
Speaker 4: that's like a little
Speaker 1: smart.
Speaker 4: They were using Svelte
Speaker 4: and it's like an email template service.
Speaker 4: Our schools here use that now.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 1: It was like one of the biggest newsletters for schools or something.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Wild.
Speaker 1: It's pretty crazy.
Speaker 1: But yeah, so going back to the Spell Society website,
Speaker 1: it's coming along nicely.
Speaker 1: I hope we get a lot of high-quality submissions and job postings
Speaker 1: and that more people use it as well.
Speaker 1: So the idea is to kind of create a sort of a flywheel situation where people get an account on the Svelte Society website to apply to a job, right?
Speaker 1: Because you need to log in and then you apply to the job, right?
Speaker 1: Using your profile.
Speaker 1: But then they also stay for the content.
Speaker 1: And somehow it's going to end up being a sustainable thing, right?
Speaker 1: So we can fund this long term.
Speaker 1: But we'll see.
Speaker 1: LLMs are going to take our jobs.
Speaker 1: So I'm not a doomer.
Speaker 1: I don't think anything's there.
Speaker 1: I mean, it definitely
Speaker 4: takes some jobs.
Speaker 4: I think it definitely will take some jobs,
Speaker 4: but I think developers who know what they're doing and can,
Speaker 4: like the LLM can't do it by themselves.
Speaker 4: So you're still going to need some developer oversight.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 1: All right.
Speaker 1: That's pretty much what I got about the Svelte Society website.
Speaker 4: Okay.
Speaker 4: You wanted
Speaker 1: to go on a tangent, Brittany.
Speaker 4: Yeah, the tangent I was going to go on is because I was saying that about being on a browser or on a MacBook or whatever, like all the different browsers and things.
Speaker 4: But Mozilla may be going away is what I hear.
Speaker 4: We all heard this.
Speaker 2: What?
Speaker 3: Haven't you said that
Speaker 2: for 10 years or something?
Speaker 2: What's new?
Speaker 4: So they released something about them like investing in AI.
Speaker 4: And it was probably just like clickbaity stuff.
Speaker 4: But somebody was saying like, oh, it was actually syntax.
Speaker 4: and it was just a short that I saw just flash by,
Speaker 4: but it was Wes and Scott talking Mozilla
Speaker 4: and like, because now they're like into this AI stuff
Speaker 4: and it was either this or they're just like gone.
Speaker 4: Like, so if this doesn't pan out for them,
Speaker 4: like it may just die out.
Speaker 4: - Ah, right.
Speaker 4: - I think it was a good take.
Speaker 2: I think in general, Firefox and Mozilla
Speaker 2: has always been like, hey, we're the nerdy guys.
Speaker 2: And
Speaker 3: the
Speaker 2: audience of them, I mean, she's totally fine.
Speaker 2: The audience of that is, please don't put AI into my product.
Speaker 2: And
Speaker 3: so then when Mozilla
Speaker 2: comes out and says, hey, we're going to love AI, then what's left?
Speaker 2: Who are you targeting?
Speaker 2: And they already got under the 2% usage, which is like a marker in the US because the government
Speaker 2: websites say that they support anything more than 2%.
Speaker 2: So essentially government websites don't support Firefox.
Speaker 4: What makes no support anything?
Speaker 4: Have you seen a government website in America?
Speaker 2: I've heard they're pretty brutal.
Speaker 4: They are the worst code you will ever see in your life.
Speaker 2: I've seen pretty bad code.
Speaker 2: My husband had one one time
Speaker 4: where you clicked into the input,
Speaker 4: and instead of allowing you to type on your keyboard,
Speaker 4: it had a keyboard.
Speaker 4: It popped up.
Speaker 4: What is
Speaker 3: this?
Speaker 1: It's pretty accessible, though, one could argue.
Speaker 1: Like, if you
Speaker 2: only have a mouse.
Speaker 2: I don't want to argue that, really?
Speaker 2: Like, really?
Speaker 2: that I
Speaker 3: need
Speaker 2: to try that gym tracking app out that you're building Kevin that's where your idea of
Speaker 2: accessibility then we need to know I mean I think I think that's that's an interesting idea about
Speaker 2: Mozilla we thought that Mozilla would die because the like the Google deal was being struck down by
Speaker 2: the government right they kept it alive in some court thing uh so we'll see
Speaker 4: they did yeah
Speaker 4: that's gone through with the government like trying to stop the monopolization of things like
Speaker 4: i feel like it's not following through
Speaker 2: right yeah they're following back and forth i
Speaker 1: think so with
Speaker 1: So my take would be, not having heard Scott and Wes's takes, is if they pivot to AI, they could potentially find a new audience
Speaker 4: and grow their ears of bass.
Speaker 1: That's their thinking, probably, right?
Speaker 4: I don't think it's
Speaker 1: going to happen, but
Speaker 4: that's probably what they're...
Speaker 4: Basically, their last hope is their
Speaker 1: lifeline
Speaker 4: of like, okay, we have to do this or we're just dead anyway.
Speaker 4: So why not try this?
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 1: No, totally.
Speaker 2: So I think there's a counter view, well, not directly to that, but have you seen Vivaldi's, they did a video of this. Vivaldi is like this other
Speaker 1: from Norway.
Speaker 1: I have not, I haven't seen it.
Speaker 2: It's like very configurable browser. It's great for the power users. And they uploaded this post where it's like, this is our roadmap for 2006. And it's just the CEO coming out and saying, it's not AI.
Speaker 2: i love that so much that was so bold
Speaker 1: marketing yeah it was great
Speaker 2: and he really knew how to speak
Speaker 2: to his audience from
Speaker 4: the short that i said i mean obviously i'm not going to speak for wes and scott
Speaker 4: but wes was saying just that um oh i just lost my train of thought that um this is something that
Speaker 4: they probably had to do but um
Speaker 1: yeah i'm
Speaker 4: gonna have to come back to it i i can't remember
Speaker 4: a
Speaker 1: lot yeah it
Speaker 4: flew out of my brain i
Speaker 1: i think the the thing that people don't like about most of
Speaker 1: love is that they're one paying their ceo like insane amounts of money uh and it's like the
Speaker 1: numbers are just dropping so
Speaker 4: it's like how
Speaker 1: do you how do you actually justify that amount of money
Speaker 1: like i could see it if they were growing but yeah and there are all these other like services around
Speaker 1: like they they do did like a password didn't they do like a password thing for a while and then they
Speaker 1: did something like they they have all these like build their own
Speaker 3: other stuff
Speaker 1: yeah right right yeah
Speaker 1: so there's all this other stuff why not just focus on the web browser people actually like to use but
Speaker 4: i remember what it was now it's that it's
Speaker 1: good good
Speaker 4: for the web in general to have caution and so it's
Speaker 3: Absolutely.
Speaker 3: Other browsers
Speaker 4: around.
Speaker 4: I mean, what is Safari's percentage?
Speaker 4: I wonder.
Speaker 4: Does anyone
Speaker 1: know?
Speaker 1: Oh, it's a lot.
Speaker 1: Like, it's
Speaker 4: like 40
Speaker 3: % or something.
Speaker 3: Yeah,
Speaker 1: yeah.
Speaker 1: Because you have to think about all the iPhones in Safari.
Speaker 4: Is it because, are they using Safari?
Speaker 4: Or is it because, like, does it count if it's Chrome on
Speaker 1: iPhone?
Speaker 1: It counts as Safari, right?
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Oh, okay.
Speaker 4: That makes sense.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Because I'm using Chrome
Speaker 4: on my iPhone, but it's still Safari.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think there's a couple of countries where they opened up that because of legal reasons.
Speaker 1: I don't remember which ones, but yeah.
Speaker 4: Interesting.
Speaker 1: I hope Firefox continues and lives on.
Speaker 2: Partly because I'm
Speaker 1: using a Firefox fork.
Speaker 2: I feel so torn about this, to be honest.
Speaker 2: Because I agree that having multiple people from different companies working towards making the web better is awesome.
Speaker 2: I mean, a Chrome-only web, I think that would be...
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But also, I mean, it's just annoying to have to support three or four different browsers
Speaker 2: when I look at the support tables.
Speaker 2: Can I use this feature?
Speaker 2: No, you can't because this browser doesn't support it.
Speaker 2: So that's super annoying.
Speaker 2: And it looks like Firefox sort of people or the product lacking behind the other browsers
Speaker 2: at the moment.
Speaker 2: And so that just annoys me.
Speaker 4: Are any of the engines open sourced?
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.
Speaker 4: like they're all open source so spider monkey
Speaker 2: like
Speaker 4: all of those are like
Speaker 2: yeah so
Speaker 4: i mean is it the
Speaker 4: worst thing like i don't want firefox to die i i love firefox i actually stopped using it a little
Speaker 4: over a year ago because just i feel like companies really invest in chrome and like google products
Speaker 4: and then it's just all the more integrated all the apple like all of them like anytime you get
Speaker 4: in an ecosystem, like you just get a better experience, I feel like.
Speaker 4: But as long as the engines are open source and people can keep doing different browsers
Speaker 4: and different things, there may still be the competition piece of it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you could have forks of Chromium, right?
Speaker 1: But then, yeah.
Speaker 1: But you can't really control
Speaker 2: what you like, what the browser supports, right?
Speaker 2: If you're just forking Chromium.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 2: But what we did see, like when Microsoft, they went in and used Chromium on their edge,
Speaker 2: I mean, that has led to a lot of Microsoft people now being part of the steering committees and
Speaker 4: Microsoft
Speaker 2: contributing a lot to Chrome.
Speaker 2: So
Speaker 4: that kind of thing would be good.
Speaker 4: So if another company came along and but if Mozilla dies, does Spider Monkey go away?
Speaker 1: Probably long term, right?
Speaker 1: Because no one's going to keep working on it.
Speaker 1: So it's just going to fall behind more and more because
Speaker 3: there
Speaker 1: are new features added to Chrome and Safari.
Speaker 1: So
Speaker 3: maybe
Speaker 1: in 10 years, it's going to be one of those browsers that are just way, way behind.
Speaker 1: But I mean, we do have other browsers coming up, right?
Speaker 1: Like Lady Bird is a thing.
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2: That's wild.
Speaker 2: It's like five people or even less than five.
Speaker 2: That's like, let's do our own browser engine.
Speaker 4: Oh, they're building their own.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Like
Speaker 4: this one genius.
Speaker 2: You said Lady Bird.
Speaker 2: it's like
Speaker 4: ladybird johnson like the vice president's or the president's wife
Speaker 2: it's very
Speaker 4: ladybird johnson was ladybird was the name of uh uh i can't
Speaker 1: remember president johnson oh i see i
Speaker 1: see yeah oh that was where my interesting yeah no this is a browser and i mean there are a couple
Speaker 1: of other browsers as well like you have this uh is it servo that's also another one that's
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's an engine that mostly by--
Speaker 2: Started by
Speaker 1: Mozilla,
Speaker 2: I think.
Speaker 2: And then they don't use it anyway, as far as I remember.
Speaker 2: No.
Speaker 4: So they're going to compete with themselves?
Speaker 1: I think maybe they tried to
Speaker 2: disrupt themselves.
Speaker 2: That's
Speaker 1: not
Speaker 2: unusual, that you need to do something new.
Speaker 2: I think it was a good idea.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Because the idea was to parallelize the layouting of CSS and stuff.
Speaker 1: So it would give you a pretty decent performance increase on the web.
Speaker 1: There is something weird happening
Speaker 4: with my computer, by the way, because now I can't even see the time.
Speaker 3: I'm like slowly trying
Speaker 4: to look at the time and it's not popping down.
Speaker 4: Like I
Speaker 3: probably need
Speaker 1: to.
Speaker 1: We have 10 minutes.
Speaker 1: I'm just putting it on my computer.
Speaker 1: I think.
Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, that would be good timing for me.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 4: All right.
Speaker 1: So should we move on to hot takes?
Speaker 3: Unpopular opinions,
Speaker 1: I guess we call them here.
Speaker 1: Does anyone want to go first?
Speaker 1: I can go if you guys don't have one.
Speaker 1: Yeah, LMs are here. We have to accept it. And we are in for a very bumpy ride. If you don't invest your time in how to use LMs, and particularly agents, I think you are going to be out of a job in four or five years if you're employed at the moment.
Speaker 3: That's scary.
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3: Why
Speaker 1: would anyone hire someone that can output 50 points of something and then another person can output 400?
Speaker 1: Like,
Speaker 2: why?
Speaker 2: There's a lot of legacy enterprises that are building these huge enterprise systems for the military.
Speaker 2: And there's going to be a long time before they change that culture.
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, sure.
Speaker 1: Like that, that, that is true. Like if, if you work in an enterprise company, that's like,
Speaker 1: that probably today isn't even using modern tooling, right. That's,
Speaker 3: it's,
Speaker 1: it's going to
Speaker 1: take them a while to, to adjust. But if you're in like a, more of a high velocity, uh, company,
Speaker 1: like, uh, any
Speaker 3: startup,
Speaker 1: any, um, then, then you're, you're, you're going to be toast.
Speaker 4: And I think if
Speaker 1: you're, if you're starting out as a developer, you definitely need to,
Speaker 1: to like
Speaker 4: understand i think it's going to get worse because of it too like startup culture is going to
Speaker 4: be even more like because you can use ai it's not like you can lay back and rest on your laurels you
Speaker 4: just got to keep using
Speaker 1: the right yeah you
Speaker 4: did like so
Speaker 1: it's
Speaker 4: gonna make it worse i think
Speaker 1: yeah i mean it
Speaker 1: could also lead to more jobs right because like the the cost of building something goes down so
Speaker 1: people can build more stuff i mean that's historically what
Speaker 2: has always happened when
Speaker 2: new
Speaker 1: technology
Speaker 2: came around we were all doomers and then it was actually more
Speaker 3: jobs uh we got more
Speaker 3: lawyers removes
Speaker 2: uh the need for librarians the
Speaker 4: uh interest rates
Speaker 2: have
Speaker 4: to go down and money has to
Speaker 4: be free again for ah so
Speaker 1: they have to be able to borrow
Speaker 4: money for free again and then there will
Speaker 4: be more jobs
Speaker 1: yeah we'll see what happens but that's my unpopular opinion i
Speaker 4: think i think that's a
Speaker 4: pretty like safe unpopular opinion because I think we all kind of agreed with that but yeah
Speaker 2: I do
Speaker 2: think I do think that the that if you're sitting here listening to us then you are in a perfect
Speaker 2: position to capitalize on this because there's going to
Speaker 3: be a lot of new developers
Speaker 2: coming in
Speaker 2: who are like fully dependent on AI and they will not be able to to do the last 20 but because you
Speaker 2: have written code before you can do the combination of your own skill set and I think that's
Speaker 4: going to be.
Speaker 4: And another thing we didn't mention in this, if you haven't heard of the Svelte MCP server
Speaker 4: and you are using AI, make sure that you go and you look that up.
Speaker 4: Someone just told me about it a couple of weeks ago and I integrated it into Cloud and
Speaker 4: it just, it really helps.
Speaker 4: It like puts the documentation right in the AI agent and makes them write better Svelte
Speaker 4: code.
Speaker 4: So make sure that you're doing that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's great using it all the time.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm not, but
Speaker 4: my
Speaker 1: agents are.
Speaker 1: Like, I had 10, no, nine parallel agents working on, like, tickets for this gym tracking app.
Speaker 1: Like, that's
Speaker 4: crazy.
Speaker 1: Like, just like.
Speaker 4: Do you have these
Speaker 1: integrated
Speaker 4: in yours?
Speaker 1: Yes.
Speaker 1: Yeah,
Speaker 4: that's another one that I've got.
Speaker 4: And it's great with context switching and making sure that you don't get the amnesia.
Speaker 4: I think we've talked
Speaker 1: about that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm going to stop with the AI LLM doomerism.
Speaker 1: Sorry.
Speaker 4: Well, in light of today's episode, and since we've been talking about AI so much, I asked
Speaker 4: Claude to give me a hot tech take.
Speaker 4: And
Speaker 3: Claude says,
Speaker 4: TypeScript's right system has become its own form of technical debt.
Speaker 4: And
Speaker 3: I actually agree
Speaker 4: with that.
Speaker 4: I like that.
Speaker 3: I think it is.
Speaker 4: I think creating all of these types and like we have it all the time in our code base where something is strictly typed and it's required.
Speaker 4: And then you get this new form of data where that piece is not required anymore.
Speaker 4: And then you have to go back and you have to like look at your types again. Like, is this type right? And I don't know. It's like its own form.
Speaker 4: It really is its own form of technical debt. Like it's just another thing to like take care of and look at
Speaker 1: and organize.
Speaker 1: I mean, it comes with upsides, right?
Speaker 1: But it is boilerplate.
Speaker 1: Or like,
Speaker 4: it does
Speaker 1: make you have to write more code.
Speaker 1: Definitely.
Speaker 4: What I wish is that, I mean, we have the API side.
Speaker 4: Why can the API not just give me its typing?
Speaker 4: There are
Speaker 1: solutions for that.
Speaker 4: I'm sure there are.
Speaker 1: At the place where I used to consult, like last year, we used to do that.
Speaker 1: Like we had a.NET backend and then we generated a TypeScript client from that.
Speaker 3: but there
Speaker 1: were there were some issues because some something about nullables not
Speaker 3: being a
Speaker 1: thing of
Speaker 1: course and then it just became a pain so you had to like use uh i don't remember what it's called
Speaker 1: in typescript but you know the the exclamation mark at the end
Speaker 2: to
Speaker 4: like say
Speaker 1: i i know
Speaker 4: no it's basically
Speaker 1: like i i know that this is basically
Speaker 4: oh okay it's
Speaker 1: painful
Speaker 4: but it's
Speaker 1: better than nothing
Speaker 4: it's better than js doc in my opinion i do like that js docs are like in the code and you don't
Speaker 4: have to compile it and build it and all that but i yeah i can't write it it's ugly
Speaker 1: good thing you don't have to write write it so much exactly i should
Speaker 4: if you're going back through it i don't like that it's well
Speaker 2: actually does
Speaker 4: the same thing but
Speaker 2: Are you still working on a library primary? Because like library types are usually way more gnarly than application types.
Speaker 4: So I own the design system piece, but most of that is done at this point and it's just maintenance and I'm more working on the feature side of the front end now.
Speaker 2: I see. Okay.
Speaker 2: So I also have a hot take that's not about all that.
Speaker 2: More screen real estate is better.
Speaker 2: It feels to me like whenever I see someone talk about their desktop setup or what to do, they're all like, I just work on my MacBook with like nine inch screen and it's perfect.
Speaker 2: And if you have more than that, you're stupid.
Speaker 2: And I just love my huge screens.
Speaker 2: I love that I can have
Speaker 3: four size
Speaker 2: windows open and that I can look at my browser and my terminal.
Speaker 2: I look at my editor.
Speaker 2: I can even look at the console at the same time.
Speaker 2: And I will hurt my neck because I look in
Speaker 3: this curved
Speaker 2: 180 degrees.
Speaker 2: But that's a future Jeb's problem.
Speaker 2: And I can't deal with him right now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you have work to do, right?
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2: I can have pain when I get old.
Speaker 2: So I'm just saying, I have two ultra-wide curved monitors
Speaker 2: next to each other.
Speaker 2: And it's fantastic.
Speaker 2: I
Speaker 1: love it.
Speaker 1: Two ultra-wides?
Speaker 4: Oh my God.
Speaker 3: You have to take a picture
Speaker 1: of this.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 4: I used to be you.
Speaker 4: I used to, so I had two 36, 32 inch monitors adjacent to each other and like on these movable
Speaker 4: things so I could move them and had that.
Speaker 4: And sometimes I would even put my Mac book next to it and use it as a screen.
Speaker 4: But I think I've become the opposite now.
Speaker 4: And I don't know if that's part of the thing of where I'm just like focused and doing my
Speaker 4: work.
Speaker 4: And so I use the three finger swipe on MacBooks to swipe between full screen.
Speaker 4: So I have one of my browser, one of my code, and I just swipe back and forth.
Speaker 4: And that's all I need.
Speaker 3: And it's kind of focused
Speaker 4: for me.
Speaker 4: And I think I'm I think I may have always had ADHD that's undiagnosed.
Speaker 4: And as I get older and the kids get older, it's becoming worse, which is why, like, the thoughts just fly out of my head like they did earlier.
Speaker 4: Like I have I can't remember anything anymore.
Speaker 4: and I need
Speaker 4: like that little
Speaker 4: I mean it's a
Speaker 1: you need the forced focus
Speaker 1: it's not 9 inches
Speaker 4: like the Switch
Speaker 1: 2 screen
Speaker 4: I get mad playing on the Switch 2 screen
Speaker 4: and the Switch 2 is bigger than the Switch 1
Speaker 4: but the Switch 2 screen is too small
Speaker 4: for me so I get it from that perspective
Speaker 2: at some point I'm going to get VR
Speaker 2: glasses and then I can just have as many
Speaker 2: screens as I want all over it
Speaker 4: Kevin used to do that
Speaker 1: I mean I do have two Apple Vision Pros
Speaker 3: two of them
Speaker 4: What do you need to do?
Speaker 4: Do you have four
Speaker 2: eyes?
Speaker 2: It's an accident.
Speaker 1: With glasses, I have four eyes.
Speaker 2: It's an accident.
Speaker 2: So you just fell over and Abba was in prison.
Speaker 2: No,
Speaker 3: it's
Speaker 2: a
Speaker 1: long story.
Speaker 1: I'll tell you about it sometime.
Speaker 1: But I think we are running out of time here.
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, we are.
Speaker 1: Brittany, you have to run to get your kid to
Speaker 4: get your trish.
Speaker 4: To a doctor's appointment.
Speaker 4: And then we're
Speaker 1: driving to
Speaker 4: Chicago.
Speaker 4: And then I'm going to Hawaii.
Speaker 1: Oh, wow.
Speaker 1: That sounds awful.
Speaker 1: I wish
Speaker 4: everyone could see how much
Speaker 4: White garbage is outside
Speaker 1: My window
Speaker 4: right now it's so nasty
Speaker 4: I'm so ready to be out of this place
Speaker 1: Yeah
Speaker 1: You have to take some pictures
Speaker 4: Of Hawaii or
Speaker 1: I mean Hawaii
Speaker 2: We've all seen this now do the Hawaii thing
Speaker 4: Okay I will take Hawaii and I will see them
Speaker 1: Alright so we
Speaker 1: Will have to do pics next week I guess
Speaker 1: So with that said
Speaker 1: Thank you all for listening and it's
Speaker 1: Super fun to be doing this again.
Speaker 1: We finally managed to find a time.
Speaker 2: And now
Speaker 3: I
Speaker 1: think we can do this.
Speaker 3: I'm hyping myself
Speaker 2: up.
Speaker 2: I think we're going to do this every week.
Speaker 2: Now that we can build websites, we can also schedule.
Speaker 2: I think it's going to be amazing.
Speaker 1: So I've asked Claude to build
Speaker 5: a website now.
Speaker 5: I hate you.
Speaker 5: All right.
Speaker 5: Goodbye, everyone.
Speaker 3: See you.
Speaker 5: See you.