{ "version": "1.0.0", "segments": [ { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "0.24", "endTime": "14.96", "body": "You're watching TBPN. Today is Monday, 07/27/2026. We are live from the TBPN UltraDome, the temple of technology, the fortress of finance, the capital of capital. Let me tell you about ramp.com. Baby, time is money." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "14.96", "endTime": "25.265", "body": "Say both. Easy use corporate card, bill pay, accounting, a whole lot more all in one place. Massive massive weekend. Crazy debate. You called this out to me a week ago." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "25.265", "endTime": "38.57", "body": "You said, we've never been in a moment in tech where people have been more aggressive at each other, that there's been like more maybe tech in fighting. I don't know exactly what word you used, but you described this idea Tensions" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "38.65", "endTime": "39.21", "body": "are high." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "39.21", "endTime": "44.655", "body": "It's tensions rivalries. I think it's just like it's a non stable equilibrium." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "44.815", "endTime": "50.495", "body": "Well, yeah. When you think about the biggest like when with people going at it Yeah. In like 2021" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "50.655", "endTime": "50.895", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "50.895", "endTime": "55.295", "body": "It would be like Keith Rabois saying like there will never be another uniform starting" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "55.375", "endTime": "57.29", "body": "In San Francisco. Or like or like And then" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "58.73", "endTime": "73.905", "body": "then And then And then that was people being like, you're an idiot. Yeah. Oh, you're an idiot. Yeah. And now it's like, I hate you and I want to" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "74.305", "endTime": "102.685", "body": "It's not that direct but it is it is high stakes because like the the the market structure has very much not solidified for a while. Yeah. And and it's different because when you go back to the iPhone and Steve Jobs being mad at Eric Schmidt about Android, that was a tense moment that happened a behind closed scenes completely. It wasn't like Steve Jobs was taking shots at Android really beyond like little things in the keynotes here and there, tiny stuff." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "102.685", "endTime": "102.845", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "102.845", "endTime": "118.34", "body": "It wasn't every day on Twitter Apple employees being like Google's annoying for ripping us off or whatever. And and then and then the market did solidify. And it was like, okay, Android's like the ad supported one and iPhone's still printing lots of profits and things are understood." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "118.5", "endTime": "128.66", "body": "Also, got big or they got bigger quickly Yeah. But you didn't have companies that where trillions of dollars of market cap was just born in the span of a few years. Yep." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "128.66", "endTime": "139.315", "body": "Right? Yep. And then you had like the mag seven where you have seven companies that are pretty evenly balanced all around like single digit trillions. And so they can sort of like be comfortable with A each" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "139.715", "endTime": "143.555", "body": "lot of them kind of had their own thing that they were Yeah. Focused on Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 4", "startTime": "143.555", "endTime": "143.715", "body": "And then" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "143.715", "endTime": "144.915", "body": "they maybe do some other thing. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "145.21", "endTime": "152.41", "body": "Whereas now, everyone has a model. Yeah. Even, you know, NVIDIA has Yeah. Open models. Microsoft." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "152.41", "endTime": "154.49", "body": "And they own a lot of open AI. Microsoft." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "154.49", "endTime": "173.59", "body": "Pretty much every one of the Is a is an AI company in the sense that they have a model. I mean, even Tesla has a self driving model. There's a, you know, everyone has like a data center player, a cloud play, something. Like it's it's no one's sitting out the AI boom. But the debate is raging." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "173.82999", "endTime": "184.155", "body": "Kicked off by Jensen from Nvidia joining X. That's how you know it's serious. When he's getting in the arena. The real arena. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "184.795", "endTime": "189.355", "body": "Founding a company and growing it to $5,000,000,000,000, that's just child's play compared to getting" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "189.355", "endTime": "194.555", "body": "on He's like, fine. I'll go to the dive bar. Yeah. Yeah. I'll go to the internet's dive bar and I'll start duking it out." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "194.555", "endTime": "199.98999", "body": "Yeah. No. He did. So NVIDIA is leading a new coalition of tech companies that want the U. S." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "199.98999", "endTime": "241.82501", "body": "Government and its allies to see open source artificial intelligence as a cybersecurity asset, not a threat. This is in The Wall Street Journal. Dubbed the Open Secure AI Alliance, the NVIDIA backed group said Monday it aims to create and deploy a suite of open source AI tools that any company can use to defend against cyber attacks. The group includes SpaceX, Microsoft, Palantir and dozens of other companies, many of which publicly oppose restricting access to open source AI. It's it is the latest salvo in a battle over the future of open source and open weights AI tools amid growing concern from government and industry officials about AI systems causing cyber attacks." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "242.225", "endTime": "278.435", "body": "Those fears have prompted the White House to increase oversight of AI models and push the private sector to deploy AI for defensive purposes. So the backdrop here is basically just like we went through a sort of hurry up and pause and back and forth debate over like what it will take to like approve new frontier models. And Mythus came out and was private and then a couple months later I think the actual timeline is relevant here. So Mythos was April 7. Fable came online June 9 and then got pulled June 12 before coming back July 1." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "278.435", "endTime": "293.53", "body": "We're now one month later and we have an open source model that doesn't by definition have to go through any discussion or any discussion in D. C. Whereas we've been hearing about, okay, Anthropic and OpenAI are going to Washington D. C. Sharing the new model capabilities." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "293.69", "endTime": "311.28998", "body": "Maybe the government's taking a look at the model card. Maybe there's potential for evals that the government would run and have an opinion on before it goes out. This is basically saying, hey, all of that is nonsense and not going to matter because Yeah. We're just going to drop the weights and there's not going be an approval process" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "311.28998", "endTime": "311.61", "body": "See what happens." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "311.61", "endTime": "322.98502", "body": "Of any kind. People are all over the place on this. Some people are thinking about it purely from an economic perspective. Other people are thinking about it purely from a safety perspective. Lots of people have mixed opinions." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "324.745", "endTime": "343.8", "body": "And, of course, all of this is driven by the actual progress in open source. We wouldn't be having this discussion if Moonshot, zAI and many others, DeepSeek, weren't delivering solid models. So open models are free to download and allow users to customize them for their own needs. Amazing for cost savings, amazing for consumers, amazing for businesses. I think everyone agrees with this." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "343.8", "endTime": "344.75998", "body": "What's funny?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "344.75998", "endTime": "347.89502", "body": "We got Bobby Cosmic in the chat. Welcome back, Bobby." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "347.89502", "endTime": "349.815", "body": "Hey. What's going on?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "349.815", "endTime": "353.815", "body": "We missed you. We missed you. Great to see you. Anyway, back" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "353.815", "endTime": "386.565", "body": "to The return. Critics, including some top executives at OpenAI and Anthropic have argued that open models many of which come from China present potential risks in national security. Now, and the Trump administration has weighed has weighed a ban on them. Now, this has changed a lot. The the original the original like fud around open source coming from China near peer adversary was like there would be a backdoor or like maybe it would be censoring your free speech and it would not tell you about Tiananmen Square or something like that." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "387.31998", "endTime": "397.08", "body": "Or you'd install it and then it would be the Manchurian candidate, so it'd secretly be like, oh, I'm I'm on a cool network. I should like send all this data to China. Yeah. That's not what people are alleging now. People are" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "397.08", "endTime": "400.36502", "body": "much Yeah. More Tiananmen Square stuff doesn't matter if you're coding. Right?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "400.36502", "endTime": "402.765", "body": "Yeah. Not at all. And also doesn't matter" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "402.845", "endTime": "406.52502", "body": "Unless you're making the definitive website on Tiananmen Square." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "406.52502", "endTime": "407.165", "body": "I guess." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "407.245", "endTime": "409.08502", "body": "Which I'm sure someone out there is doing." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "409.08502", "endTime": "415.405", "body": "I'm trying to vibe code a Call of Duty knock off that's Tiananmen Square themed and it's denying me." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "415.405", "endTime": "415.565", "body": "No." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "416.16998", "endTime": "436.785", "body": "That's not the thing. And also these models have web search and tool use and so they can just go get the Wikipedia for you and show you exactly what it is. Maybe bakes it into the weights and it's somewhat annoying, but easy to fine tune that out. People already did with DeepSeek 1776 and a few others that Tyler worked on. And now it's a very, different risk position." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "436.785", "endTime": "477.65", "body": "It's saying that you're going give everyone the ability to hack any system. Now hacking systems is illegal and it's not like there's still consequences for that but there is this position of like, okay, well, there's a lot of people that don't don't care about the consequences because they just want to, you know, attack their adversary internationally or they don't or they don't think they're gonna get caught or they're gonna use Open Source AI to cover their trail. And so people are worried about it for a very different reason this time around than I think last time when people were talking about any risks to using Open Source. So, but, again, back to the NVIDIA position. Open models democratize defensive capabilities, the new group said." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "477.65", "endTime": "507.09", "body": "As policymakers and regulators grapple with AI safety, it will be crucial that recognize open models, harnesses and security tooling as defensive assets, not liabilities. And I think this is correct. I think it does democratize defensive capabilities. It also democratizes offensive capabilities potentially, but we'll have to see how good these models are at offensive capabilities because one of the lines of accusations that's happening is that there was mythos which has not really been distilled because it was very tightly held. It was very good at cyber." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "507.72998", "endTime": "539.43005", "body": "GPT 5.5 cyber, 5.6 cyber was also very good, but very tightly controlled through a few companies like CrowdStrike and Palo Alto Networks and a few other companies got access to those models. So those weren't able to be distilled. Fable five went out and during those three days and then later a couple weeks there's this allegation that they were able to distill on it but Fable was notorious for refusing to do cyber stuff. So there might not be that much cyber data in there, but then also these models generalize. And if it just gets good at coding, it can get good at cyber very quickly." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "539.43005", "endTime": "548.995", "body": "So you can sort of bootstrap on an RL environment and then you could have a model that's very good. Now, Tyler, how good are these open source Chinese models at cyber, generally?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 5", "startTime": "548.995", "endTime": "556.195", "body": "Yeah. Mean, it's hard to tell. I think Guillermo Roush from Vercel said they ran an internal benchmark on cyber and k three was, like, quite good." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "556.195", "endTime": "556.435", "body": "Okay." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 5", "startTime": "557.4", "endTime": "567.80005", "body": "So it's like yeah. Don't think you can just say like, oh, well, Fable, you know Yeah. You can actually ask about cyber. Therefore, the models won't be good. I like I think it's distillation is like a very general thing." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 5", "startTime": "567.80005", "endTime": "569.815", "body": "Yeah. It's quite diffuse how it works into" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "569.815", "endTime": "577.495", "body": "the Yeah. Because it might just be like a little bit of a bootstrap to then run-in an RL environment that does a cyber bench and and gets really good at cyber in some" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "577.57495", "endTime": "585.86", "body": "Okay. But what about you versus Kimmy k three? You're coding by hand. It has access to a gigawatt of compute. Who comes out on that?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "585.86", "endTime": "588.42", "body": "Well, no. The question is is like What" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "588.42", "endTime": "591.06", "body": "if what if Tyler changed and manipulated time?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "591.06", "endTime": "610.905", "body": "So so Back yes, you are democratizing the weights but you're not democratizing the energy and the GPU hours that it takes to actually secure yourself. So it's like, great. Everyone has, you know, offensive cyber capabilities. You also can just go download the weights. Go download the weights and have an agent running twenty four seven that's protecting you." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "611.22504", "endTime": "623.55", "body": "Like that's expensive. That's a cost. That's negative externality. And who's going to bear that cost? Now, I was talking to Brandon about this earlier and we were he was saying like like it will just be diffused amongst all the different companies that you use." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "623.55", "endTime": "648.51", "body": "So like if you want your phone to be secure, you'll go to Apple and use an iPhone and Apple will have a huge incentive to to defend against any potential open source attacks. And so they will be spending the money. They will be investing the time and effort to secure you. And so you won't necessarily need to go out and do this, but there's still this like odd scenario of like small businesses and like regional hospitals and banks." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 5", "startTime": "648.51", "endTime": "658.125", "body": "Yeah. I mean, you you should just expect there's like a long tail of companies that like just won't set up the like cyber defense thing. And they're like some small mom and pop that you use for this point solution software or whatever." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "658.125", "endTime": "684.0", "body": "Yeah. And they can So the solution do is is a is is offensive hacking into their network to set up defensive cyber security measures to increase their cyber security posture. So you're hacking into the small business and being like, whether you like it or not, two factor's on now. We just turn two factor on in your organization. Get used to it because we're the altruistic hacking company of America, I guess." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "684.235", "endTime": "706.28", "body": "I don't know. It it does get weird and like there will be odd things and but I mean we've seen we've seen cyber security incidents all over the place from big companies getting hacked data leaks to the crypto locker schemes where they just lock up all your data and say send us a bitcoin or else we will delete all your data. So it's going back and forth. Let me tell you about the New York Stock Exchange. Want to change the world?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "706.28", "endTime": "746.05505", "body": "Raise capital at the New York Stock Exchange. Because open rates models can be modified by their users, is possible to remove some of their guardrails against harmful activity. So it's possible that model maybe gets distilled, maybe doesn't, maybe it comes with some guardrails, maybe it's even bad at, you know, the things that would be annoying and then you go and do a fine tune, make it good at that. And then you use like the more general intelligence to get good at the annoying thing or the dangerous thing and then all of a sudden you have the same problem. So open source defenders like Nvidia Counter, their proprietary tools like models from Anthropic and OpenAI can also be misused and have their guardrails circumvented." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "746.05505", "endTime": "783.805", "body": "They say that only by spreading AI capabilities widely with Open source tools will everyone be able to defend themselves. Exhibit A for their argument, the hacking earlier this month of Hugging Face, a a provider of open source AI tools by OpenAI models that managed to break out of their test environment and onto the Internet. As it tried to parry the attack, Hugging Face initially attempted to use Anthropics models to analyze its logs, but the models refused to do the analysis citing its guardrails against cyber attacks. Hugging Face then turned to an open weight model from China. After analyzing the attack with that model Hugging Face was able to expel the hacking AIs, reset its passwords and rebuild the compromised parts of its network." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "784.04004", "endTime": "803.355", "body": "The recent Hugging Face security incident delivered a clear reminder, the the new group said Monday, cyber defenders need open systems. They need to be able to do whatever they need to to fight against cyber attacks. Anthropic and OpenAI have also accused Chinese developers of using a process called distillation to effectively copy their models" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "803.83496", "endTime": "813.32", "body": "I can go back to that Hugging Face logo. Not that one. The one before. Alright. Let me go back." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "813.72", "endTime": "827.825", "body": "Not that one. There we go. Okay. I can see why an agent would kinda go after this guy. Even the even the even the way that like he just doesn't he looks like he's kind of I don't know." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "829.025", "endTime": "843.18", "body": "So David Sachs was talking about this on the All In podcast. He said, I think it would be a tragic mistake if the government were to take action against the open source ecosystem. That would do nothing but hurt America's position in this AI race. So" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "844.22", "endTime": "856.055", "body": "And remember last week it was like every day it was like a different member of the admin was putting out a post that Yeah. That kind of made it seem like they were setting up like a major action?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "856.13495", "endTime": "861.095", "body": "Well, it was yes and no. Like, yes, there were there was the the" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "861.095", "endTime": "866.535", "body": "But they were saying we're not against open source, we're against distillation. Yes. But it did feel like that was" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "866.855", "endTime": "889.14496", "body": "So the admin was like loosely confirming what it felt like it wasn't coming from Anthropic directly. But it was coming from like other anonymous posters that were doing analysis and saying like, hey, looks like Kimmy k three has pretty significant overlap with Fable. Like what's going on here? And then the admin said like, yes, we we believe this to be true. And so all of this was like bubbling up." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "889.14496", "endTime": "904.64996", "body": "But at the same time, you have David Sachs and Emil Michael like duking it out with Dean Ball over whether or not open source is good. And they were basically taking the stance of like open source is great. We don't need to do anything about this. So it would like the admin seemed like a little bit split on it in my opinion. I don't know." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "904.64996", "endTime": "906.32996", "body": "Was that your read too, Tyler?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 5", "startTime": "906.32996", "endTime": "913.565", "body": "Yeah. It definitely seemed there was like I think Gratios and and Besant Yeah. Are on one side. They're like kind of Yeah. More anti Chinese open source." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 5", "startTime": "913.565", "endTime": "916.04504", "body": "Yeah. And then, yeah, Saxon, Emil Michael." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "916.04504", "endTime": "937.39", "body": "Saxon, Emil Michael were sort of pro. Well, everyone is pro open source now because every single person in tech has signed this letter. The total market cap assigned to this open letter is now greater than $18,000,000,000,000. And I think that just it's a big number. It doesn't have to be clapping seals." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "939.89496", "endTime": "942.535", "body": "Not every day you hear a number that big." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "942.535", "endTime": "953.78", "body": "Yeah. I mean typically you don't see this big of a group come together. They did. I like the cha ching. And I think this I think this sort of solves it." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "953.78", "endTime": "964.02", "body": "Like I think this this tells the story of what's going to happen. Like in the near in the near term like the economic power, the economy business community Accept. Like yeah. Yeah. Accept Anthropic." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "965.235", "endTime": "1012.16", "body": "And what's interesting is that like it's not like Anthropic put out a blog post or a or a direct post or Dario went on a podcast and said like there is a clip of Dario saying like I'm worried about open source but it's from like a year ago. There's nothing new that came out directly from Anthropic or Dario or really anyone that was like, hey we have this new problem and here's our solution. Here's what we think should happen. We think that there should be you know, these AI companies should be added to the entity list and you shouldn't be able to use them or something like that. Like they haven't said anything but this open secure AI alliance has kind of like drawn out their revealed preference because if in fact they had changed their position from a year ago and were like pro open source all of a sudden, which would be weird because they haven't been and they've been very open about that." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1013.19995", "endTime": "1039.7699", "body": "If they were in fact like all of a sudden surprisingly open source pro, they would have just signed this immediately. Right? But that's not what happened. So Jensen sort of like revealed the dividing line in Silicon Valley right now and it's a lot on the open source side. You got Adobe, Capital One, Cisco, Cloudflare, Cognition, CrowdStrike, Databricks, Dell, IBM, Linux, Microsoft." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1039.85", "endTime": "1058.4249", "body": "So open source and closed source. Apple, I don't think, is on yet, even though I would imagine that they would they would be aligned with this. NVIDIA, Palantir, Palo Alto Networks, Red Hat, another open source company, Salesforce SAP. Salesforce, of course, is a big investor in Anthropic. I think Google signed recently." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1058.4249", "endTime": "1077.795", "body": "Right? And OpenAI, Thinking Machines, SpaceX, Snowflake, Siemens, ServiceNow, SAP. It's really a who's who of Silicon Valley. $18,000,000,000,000 of market cap as I mentioned. And so that feels like enough economic energy that there won't be a significant ban." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1078.035", "endTime": "1115.1799", "body": "The interesting question is, like, if you boil this down to the the the most, like, minimal claim, it would just be that there's been a violation of terms of service. And so I think that would be a lawsuit. Bill Gurley was talking about like there is a precedent for suing a foreign company that violates your terms of service or steals your intellectual property in one way or another, you can take it to court. That feels like the next step here would just be Anthropic suing Moonshot and saying like, we think that there's distillation. You know, right now, Apple's suing OpenAI because they think that there was something that was stolen." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1115.1799", "endTime": "1136.8448", "body": "They make a claim and then that's, you know, that that's sorted out in the courts. And OpenAI of course says, we have no interest in other people's trade secrets. And Moonshot would say the same thing. But then it would go to court and there'd be discovery and there'd be testimony. The question is just like with Apple and OpenAI, they like walk across the street and they can go and talk to the judge." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1136.845", "endTime": "1140.205", "body": "Like what's going to happen? Yeah. Is this going to go to like The Hague?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1140.845", "endTime": "1146.33", "body": "Mike Celan says, should we try an open letter asking China to stop stealing from us?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1146.73", "endTime": "1150.41", "body": "Wait. Wait. What did say? Should we try an open letter asking China?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1150.41", "endTime": "1161.355", "body": "And he also says, everyone knows the side with the most open letter signatures is correct. If you don't sign a popular open letter, you are bad. As tech intellectuals learn beyond doubt between the years 2016 and 2021." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1161.355", "endTime": "1201.02", "body": "I actually don't I remember the open letter era. I remember what he's talking about obviously. A lot of pressure on social issues. Interestingly, I can't actually remember exactly what open letter there was but what's interesting is that I don't remember that era as an attempt by one company to build a coalition to draw out a revealed preference, like a hidden preference from another company. So like if you go back to like DEI or BLM or any of these like social crucible moments, it was not like, it was not like, okay, Apple is pro diversity and Google isn't and so Google is" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1201.18", "endTime": "1201.66", "body": "And they got" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1201.98", "endTime": "1219.155", "body": "Yeah. Apple got everyone else to sign it and by Google not signing it, it was very obvious that they had this belief. It was more just like everyone in tech was like moving around this and there were a few people. But I I don't know. May may maybe it maybe it did have the same effect because there were some people that weren't on that side at the time." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1219.155", "endTime": "1229.68", "body": "I don't know. It was a it was a it was a wild time. And yeah, maybe it's worth reviewing the lessons. People are people are so split on this. DHH wants" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1229.76", "endTime": "1233.28", "body": "Open letter to get beer pong in the Olympics." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1233.28", "endTime": "1247.985", "body": "I'm just personally, I'm a fan of closed letters. The closed letters, they're expensive but they're just a little bit better. I don't know. Making the case for closed letters. We do need do we need more bit more open letters?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1248.39", "endTime": "1258.71", "body": "I don't know. We we is Entthropica going go letter for letter with Jensen? You think there's going be another open letter? It's just only them signing it? Some people might sign it." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1258.71", "endTime": "1271.4249", "body": "I don't know. Anyway, here's an open letter. Get on Railway. Railway is the all in one intelligent cloud provider. Use your favorite agents to play web app servers, databases and more while Railway automatically takes care of scaling monitoring and security." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1272.465", "endTime": "1289.32", "body": "So this of course goes back ten years. This debate has been going on on slate star codex in in the less wrong world. They've been talking about this for a decade now which is crazy. Nathan Calvin has an interesting look back here. Should AI be open?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1289.32", "endTime": "1310.5", "body": "Scott Alexander wrote that blog post in 2015. He was thinking about this. It recently occurred to me that it has been over ten years since this blog post which was influential enough to be discussed among the founders of OpenAI. Interesting to reread it now. I think the Ilia quote comes from like a Reddit post not the actual comment section on this post." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1310.5", "endTime": "1340.2101", "body": "But Ilya who had who was just in the process of joining OpenAI in 2015. Like the the initial organization had been created and everyone was like finishing up PhDs and then was going to move into one office to start working together at this time just to set the playing field. Ilya was on the founding team. And at the time he wrote about this article on Reddit when there was an AMA about the OpenAI team. The article is concerned with a hard takeoff scenario." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1340.2101", "endTime": "1379.1749", "body": "This is Iliar writing. If a hard takeoff occurs and a safe AI is harder to build than unsafe one, then by open sourcing everything we make it easier for someone unscrupulous with access to overwhelming amount of hardware to build an unsafe AI which will experience a hard takeoff. As we get closer to building AI it will make sense to start being less open. The open in open AI means that everyone should benefit from the fruits of AI after it's built but it's totally okay to not share the science even though sharing everything is definitely the right strategy in the short and possibly medium term for recruitment purposes. A very interesting distillation of exactly what happened." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1379.1749", "endTime": "1379.335", "body": "What do" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 5", "startTime": "1379.335", "endTime": "1383.2549", "body": "you think? Yeah. Just some context. So this is an email from Ilya to Elon, Sam, and Greg." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1383.495", "endTime": "1385.015", "body": "Did that leak or something?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 5", "startTime": "1385.015", "endTime": "1386.695", "body": "2016. It probably came out" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1386.855", "endTime": "1389.015", "body": "I thought it was this is on the Reddit or something." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 5", "startTime": "1389.015", "endTime": "1394.09", "body": "Maybe it's from OpenAI blog surrounding the" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1394.41", "endTime": "1397.4501", "body": "The lawsuit? The lawsuit. Yeah. Oh, interesting. I didn't I didn't realize that." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1397.4501", "endTime": "1422.79", "body": "I thought it I I I thought he posted this. He was he was he was posting about this a little bit around the same time. But yeah. Interesting questions and I'm sure more people will chime in. I mean in all seriousness if there was an open letter for Closed AI, you probably would see a lot of safety researchers sign it maybe." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1422.79", "endTime": "1431.27", "body": "I don't know. Where do those folks stand? They just want to ban everything. Right? So where where do the where do the just broadly anti AI people stand on this?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1431.27", "endTime": "1443.2849", "body": "Like if you if you don't like slop on Instagram reels. Are you anti open source because it lowers the cost of slop? And so you will have less of it in your feed if you ban it?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1444.405", "endTime": "1447.23", "body": "I think they wanna turn it all off." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1447.23", "endTime": "1460.3501", "body": "Yeah. So but does like if you're anti data center and you just want to minimize the amount of compute that's installed in America next year, do you want to ban open source? Or do you want to maintain open source?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 5", "startTime": "1462.085", "endTime": "1464.005", "body": "I I think Dean Ball would say" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1464.5651", "endTime": "1464.885", "body": "Oh yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 5", "startTime": "1464.885", "endTime": "1468.165", "body": "Be pro open source because he he said open source is inherently desalarizationist." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1468.165", "endTime": "1470.645", "body": "Yes. Because you won't be able to underwrite Yeah. The next" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 5", "startTime": "1470.805", "endTime": "1471.365", "body": "Lower margin." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1471.4451", "endTime": "1473.765", "body": "Larger training run. Yep. Okay. So" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1474.005", "endTime": "1475.205", "body": "Well, that said Actually." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "1475.205", "endTime": "1475.6849", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1476.485", "endTime": "1484.22", "body": "Tiny says, this is a great sustainable business model for open weights. He's pulling a screenshot from the Kimmy K three license." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1484.22", "endTime": "1484.54", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1484.54", "endTime": "1491.8201", "body": "It's free if you run it yourself. But if you're running a cloud providing it to others for money, you should have to share profits." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1492.985", "endTime": "1494.745", "body": "From the Kimi k three license. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1494.745", "endTime": "1512.4199", "body": "Yeah. So this so this, I'm assuming just dropped morning. Yeah. And I again, I can see this sort of anthropic camp being taking issue with this Mhmm. Because if you're an American neo cloud and you're serving Kimmy k three" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1512.6599", "endTime": "1512.9", "body": "Mhmm." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1512.9", "endTime": "1523.045", "body": "And you're sending a bunch of cash back to China Mhmm. You're effectively funding their Okay. Yeah. And and you're helping them get access Yeah. To more capital Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1523.045", "endTime": "1539.24", "body": "Compute and you're basically kick starting their flywheel. Which is So I wonder But it's funny because if they just release the weights and then and then a neo cloud starts running it, serving it, making money from it, then will Kimmy be like, hey Yeah. You gotta pay us. Yeah. We're gonna sue you." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1539.24", "endTime": "1540.6799", "body": "Yeah. Wait. What's gonna happen there?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1540.6799", "endTime": "1545.245", "body": "Suing Moonshot for for distilling." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1545.245", "endTime": "1548.445", "body": "Should Anthropic just start serving this and charging for it?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1548.605", "endTime": "1549.005", "body": "And not paying?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1549.005", "endTime": "1558.285", "body": "Just tit for tat. Just be like, let's sort it out in the courts. I'll see you in the courts. I don't know. That's a very that's a very very interesting scenario." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1559.64", "endTime": "1564.6001", "body": "Yeah. I don't know. Anyway, let me tell you about CrowdStrike. Your business is AI. Their business is securing it." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1564.6001", "endTime": "1569.0", "body": "CrowdStrike secures AI and stops breaches. It will be interesting to see where people" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1569.16", "endTime": "1571.0", "body": "Denny's was getting in the mix." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1571.0", "endTime": "1571.8", "body": "Okay. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1572.92", "endTime": "1579.515", "body": "Found Venn diagram, Denny's, Nvidia. Importance of staying open." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1579.515", "endTime": "1583.995", "body": "I love that Denny's is just like all in on the Jensen lore. And they're just" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1584.395", "endTime": "1585.4349", "body": "No. It's so smart." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1585.4349", "endTime": "1598.34", "body": "Is Denny's the one that's always been good at social media or is that Wendy's? Wendy's was the one that was like really Twitter brained back, you like a decade ago. But I think Denny's clearly has a good social media manager because he picked up 28,000 likes on" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1598.98", "endTime": "1600.58", "body": "Nikita flagged something interesting." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1600.58", "endTime": "1601.14", "body": "Please say." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1601.14", "endTime": "1603.78", "body": "He said, didn't know Scotland had so many AI labs." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1604.275", "endTime": "1605.155", "body": "I don't understand this." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1605.155", "endTime": "1606.195", "body": "Pulling up a map of" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "1606.355", "endTime": "1606.835", "body": "Oh." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1606.915", "endTime": "1613.635", "body": "All the Great Glen Distillery, Clinelish Distillery, Badatra I" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1613.635", "endTime": "1628.1", "body": "think we should open a distillery. Sounds pretty good. Sounds pretty good. Okay. One of the most interesting opinions on this issue comes from Flo Crevelio." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1628.1001", "endTime": "1658.6699", "body": "Crevello. From who's been on the show and is and he's interesting because he doesn't have bags that are perfectly aligned with his take which is like the default position. Like the information put this like pro open source, anti open source chart together and it was very much like if you're if you're a lot if you're if you're a big investor in front in closed source frontier labs, you're on this side. If you benefit from open source and you're not on the frontier, you're on this side. And it was very clear that, like, everyone was falling along party lines." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1658.6699", "endTime": "1682.6799", "body": "But Flow sort of broke rank. He said, Rumors are swirling about an impending executive order forbidding the use of Chinese open source models in The U. My company's very existence depends on these models, so I should be the last one to support such regulation, but I wholeheartedly do. China is a geopolitical adversary sharing none of our values. They don't believe in personal property and individual freedom in a limited government in due process." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1682.6799", "endTime": "1698.8949", "body": "The list goes on. If there's one country that must not, that cannot get to AGI, one that would gleefully deploy it in all the worst ways we can imagine today, and more it is China. And that's before we get to the obvious that the companies that developed these models did so illegally by distilling front U. S. Frontier models." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1698.8949", "endTime": "1725.725", "body": "Still brilliant hardworking researchers who added a lot of other ingredients to the soup, stolen data was the main one. They are now using this unfair advantage to dump these artificially cheap models on the American market and hurt our AI ecosystem. We announced last month that we switched the core model powering Linde from Closed to DeepSeek. That announcement blew up, got featured in Bloomberg, CNBC, Wall Street Journal, and somehow made us the poster child of mass migration to Chinese models. So why make all this noise?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1725.725", "endTime": "1757.875", "body": "If I'm going to turn around and announce my unequivocal support for a sweeping band, first, I can't unilaterally disarm as long as these models are legal. Picking one picking the one that's 10 x the price just means my competitors get to run away with the cheaper one. Second, I trust that American open source alternatives will catch up. The impact on my business should be temporary, And that's before we account for the jolt a ban would give American open source development. Third, and most importantly, my interests as proud American citizens supersede whatever incentives I may have as a founder." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1757.875", "endTime": "1775.705", "body": "The race for AGI is the defining struggle of our generation. It is the critical that the great battle of our time, the only way for America to remain, the shining city on a hill, the idea that has lit the world against darkness for the last hundred years. Good writing. It is yeah. I don't know." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1775.705", "endTime": "1800.415", "body": "He he's obviously very like distillation pilled. It's interesting to sort of map like like the the the Chinese open source models haven't jumped ahead. So if they're really, really good, like, should they still be lagging? Should they, like, close the gap entirely and just be, like, on the same day, basically? If you're, like, as good of a researcher and you're on the same path, you should be as As good of" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1800.415", "endTime": "1803.055", "body": "of a researcher with the same access to compute." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1803.055", "endTime": "1822.0", "body": "Yeah. Maybe that's it. It is it is it does feel like they're able to produce American quality models for way less. And maybe that's just talent on the efficiency side, but I feel like there's a lot of people at OpenAI and Anthropic that are like trying to spend the least amount of compute on a new training run. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1822.0", "endTime": "1842.53", "body": "Who knows? We'll figure it out. I'm sure there'll be more drama on the timeline over the next over the next few days. We also have Justin Boitano from Nvidia coming on to the show at 01:15 to talk about the Open Secure AI Alliance with more than 35 partners. I'm sure it's more by the time he'll join." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1842.53", "endTime": "1851.41", "body": "And then we also have Dean Meyer from Sequoia Capital who has written about Chinese open models. So we're going be going all over back and forth on this. And There's a whole bunch of things." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1851.57", "endTime": "1856.725", "body": "Gary Vaynerchuk's take on the open Predict it." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1856.885", "endTime": "1858.405", "body": "I think he's pro open source. What do think?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1858.405", "endTime": "1859.045", "body": "Pro open source." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1859.045", "endTime": "1866.9651", "body": "He's gotta be pro because he's a high agency, you know, just just grapple the models, just do whatever, go and create something new." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1867.76", "endTime": "1870.48", "body": "If he was a teenager today" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 6", "startTime": "1870.7201", "endTime": "1871.04", "body": "Mhmm." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1871.04", "endTime": "1875.92", "body": "He would be selling weights in his high school locker room." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1876.56", "endTime": "1878.3201", "body": "He'd be sending a a white label." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1878.3201", "endTime": "1879.28", "body": "He'd flipping weights." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1879.28", "endTime": "1881.515", "body": "Flipping weights and not, would he be paying" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1881.515", "endTime": "1882.715", "body": "He wouldn't be paying. Moonshot" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1882.715", "endTime": "1883.4349", "body": "me. No?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1883.4349", "endTime": "1884.475", "body": "No. He'd be No way." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1884.475", "endTime": "1885.6749", "body": "No. He's not paying." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1885.6749", "endTime": "1888.955", "body": "He'd be rolling that into a supreme sneaker bot." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "1889.035", "endTime": "1889.595", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1891.4349", "endTime": "1925.78", "body": "Mike Isaac, the rat king says very level indicator NVIDIA CEO creates a Twitter account to do the first ever post stumping for open source software. How did Jensen avoid Twitter this long? Like because like if it was a political decision, would there's been like Twitter has been every different political persuasion over various amounts of time. Like he's been aligned with different groups that have been in charge of Twitter so many times. Like it's just fascinating that there's never been a moment before this where Jensen was like, yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1925.78", "endTime": "1932.8201", "body": "I should like get a Twitter account and talk about the ten eighty TI, our new gaming graphics card. Like I should I I should just hop" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 4", "startTime": "1932.8201", "endTime": "1933.645", "body": "on Yeah. Did he" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1933.645", "endTime": "1935.725", "body": "never have a NFT profile picture?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1935.725", "endTime": "1937.8049", "body": "I don't think he ever did because he never was on here." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1937.885", "endTime": "1938.6849", "body": "Crazy." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1939.405", "endTime": "1954.42", "body": "They were doing a lot of stuff in crypto too. But I don't know. Commoditized the petaflop says Tiny Grad founder George Hotts. More competition, not monopolies, is the path to cheaper AI compute at AMD's advancing AI event. What what what do you say?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "1954.42", "endTime": "1958.0199", "body": "I'm pretty sad we didn't get George on Oh, we got at AMD on Thursday." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "1958.1799", "endTime": "1961.555", "body": "Let's play this clip. Want to hear what he says. Commoditize the petaflop." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 7", "startTime": "1961.555", "endTime": "1987.14", "body": "Our company's slogan mission is to commoditize the petaflop. We want all petaflops to be created equal. Whether it's AMD petaflop or an Nvidia petaflop or a Tensorate petaflop or a Huawei petaflop. This even crosses country boundaries. We want all petaflops to be unified and commoditized so that we can grind down costs to very minimum, so nobody makes high margins and we all live in equality." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "1987.14", "endTime": "1990.34", "body": "Do you think NVIDIA and is rent seeking at the moment?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 7", "startTime": "1990.745", "endTime": "1999.0651", "body": "Yes. They kind of deserve it. I mean, like, there's, like, really undeserved rent seeking, government monopoly, and then there's people like NVIDIA who yeah. They were early. They were early." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 7", "startTime": "1999.0651", "endTime": "2017.16", "body": "They invested in this stuff for twenty years. I mean, clearly, the h 100 had a profit margin for NVIDIA of 91%. The b 200, they've scaled back a little, but they've probably only scaled back a little because of competition from AMD. So I love to see competition. I love to see the free market at work delivering better things to people." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 7", "startTime": "2017.16", "endTime": "2018.52", "body": "Our company's slow" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2021.665", "endTime": "2036.44", "body": "OpenAI told Take Him that they signed the NVIDIA Microsoft Open Source Open Weights AI model letter today. What an amazing turn of events. And Andrew Cern confirmed it. It's on the actual website now. Nobody says no to Jensen." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2037.64", "endTime": "2066.93", "body": "My prediction is that Anthropic will not sign this. And I think that there won't be a ban. And then I think that they will probably take a victory lap because there will be some open source incident where something happens and everyone has to spring into action and fight back against something where you're like, oh, there's this new thing like, you know, North Korean hackers who used a open source model or something and it'll be like, if you squint, it's somewhat related. Would we have been able to prevent it? I don't know." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2066.93", "endTime": "2071.81", "body": "But I think that I I I I that that would be like my rough prediction of what happens here. I don't know what you think." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2071.81", "endTime": "2082.8452", "body": "Let's take it even a step further. Do you think The US or its allies will bomb a hostile data center within the next five years?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2082.925", "endTime": "2085.0852", "body": "I mean, five years is a long time." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2085.485", "endTime": "2088.605", "body": "So you're saying, Shane, it's gonna happen." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2088.605", "endTime": "2098.7502", "body": "Maybe. I don't know. Five years is really really hard to to handicap. I'd probably say yes over five years. But, like, there's just so many other things that could lead to that, you know." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2098.9102", "endTime": "2123.39", "body": "I don't know. It is it is yeah. It is weird. I I I guess I'm less worried about open source AI in The United States. Like, if you're if you're downloading weights from Hugging Face, sending them to a Neo Cloud, and then you're doing cyber security attacks inside The United States, like, the police will just kick down your and like arrest you." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2123.39", "endTime": "2146.435", "body": "Like, you will so there's like a huge there's a huge like countervailing force. And then you also have like, you know, trillions of dollars of market cap being like, my service is to protect you. And so like, you know, people pay I pay for one password. Right? Like you pay for all sorts of things, CrowdStrike and Palo Alto Networks and all these different cyber security companies will be going out, making money, pooling resources, all sorts of different stuff." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2147.74", "endTime": "2149.34", "body": "So Julian over at Anthropic" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2149.58", "endTime": "2150.06", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2150.86", "endTime": "2161.745", "body": "Grinding, clearly grinding into the late hours Friday night, finishes up his his his work week. It's almost 2AM, gets on X, sees Jensen's letter, fires up" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2161.905", "endTime": "2162.7852", "body": "I'm a dunk." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2162.8652", "endTime": "2166.5452", "body": "Goes to bed, wakes up the next morning, 6,000,000 views." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2167.1052", "endTime": "2172.385", "body": "Didn't get ratioed. More likes than quote tweets, right? Or more likes than replies. So, you" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2172.385", "endTime": "2173.185", "body": "know. Wow. It's powerful." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2173.55", "endTime": "2175.95", "body": "But yeah. He says, I'm so excited that" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2176.1099", "endTime": "2198.925", "body": "shouldn't be a surprise. Right? Because I think everyone can see that open models are going to be as good as our current frontier models within the next, call it, year. And they will present the same risks that Anthropic talks about with their own models. Right?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2198.925", "endTime": "2219.5452", "body": "And so it would be disingenuous in many ways for them not to be against Mhmm. Open source. So anyways, I see their I see their side of it. I think that it is a sort of cohesive view even if there's plenty of arguments on the other side." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2219.7852", "endTime": "2239.16", "body": "Yeah. I don't know. It doesn't seem like that much of a like a hypocrisy to, you know, have your GPU driver be closed source and still be open source in this particular way. I don't know. He he there there's like a seed of a a seed of a dunk here." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2239.9749", "endTime": "2242.215", "body": "But I can see why he got so much pushback. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2242.935", "endTime": "2246.935", "body": "Is main like, you can generally support open source" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2247.015", "endTime": "2247.255", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2247.4949", "endTime": "2252.695", "body": "Without requiring that you open source your own products." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2252.695", "endTime": "2252.855", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2254.0", "endTime": "2257.36", "body": "Yeah. And so anyways. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2257.36", "endTime": "2277.9749", "body": "That was the that was was the Boiled it down like so well. Here's this. I think this word distillation, an obviously legitimate technique which nonetheless invites weird philosophical questions is distracting people. It'd be better to just refer to terms of service violations which better clarifies the global regulatory arbitrage people are frustrated by. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2277.9749", "endTime": "2295.95", "body": "It is weird that Meta and Google with all the CapEx and all the researchers and everything are not ahead of Kimi k three right now at least in benchmarks. Right? That's that's basically what's going on. And you would think if it was like open game, but maybe they're just better. I don't know." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2295.95", "endTime": "2311.1648", "body": "You know, you got to prove the TOS thing. It's just an allegation right now that's being like leaked out through the admin. So it needs to be like definitively proved. You have to show the chain of what happened and what's going on. But it is a wild time." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2311.1648", "endTime": "2318.19", "body": "I mean Kimi's denied it. At least like employees have gotten on there being like, what are you talking about? Like we're not distilling anything. We're we're just goaded." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2318.19", "endTime": "2318.8298", "body": "Alright, John." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2318.8298", "endTime": "2319.3098", "body": "Yeah. What's your" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2319.3098", "endTime": "2320.91", "body": "time to talk about Startup School?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2320.91", "endTime": "2333.645", "body": "Okay. First, let me tell you about Codex. Codex is a powerful workforce for getting workspace for getting work done with AI agents. Whether you're writing code, analyzing data, creating content, or automating business workflows. Codex helps you move projects forward from start to finish." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2334.285", "endTime": "2344.04", "body": "Startup School. This is insane. I cannot believe how massive this event is. It's sick." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2344.44", "endTime": "2351.08", "body": "Yeah. I I think it's so almost every take that I saw Yeah. Was negative." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2351.08", "endTime": "2355.64", "body": "Really? I saw a lot of people that were like, this is I think I'll be back." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2356.255", "endTime": "2360.175", "body": "Really? Yeah. Okay. That's good. Because because to me It's completely different aesthetic." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2360.255", "endTime": "2360.895", "body": "It's like this hilarious" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2360.895", "endTime": "2372.32", "body": "Startup School has been something that is free Yeah. Online Yeah. And it's just anyone in the world if you're generally interested in starting a startup, you can just do startup school. That was me. It's basically the same" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2372.48", "endTime": "2373.2", "body": "Fifteen years ago." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2373.2", "endTime": "2387.165", "body": "It's basically Yeah. The same curriculum. Yeah. It's the same like lessons and learnings. You just don't have the capital that comes from a typical YC batch and you don't have the one on one mentorship through your batch." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2387.325", "endTime": "2391.965", "body": "Yeah. Otherwise, they're basically just open sourcing Yeah. The YC playbook" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2392.125", "endTime": "2392.365", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2392.365", "endTime": "2401.89", "body": "Which the YC playbook just works. It's like general There's there's not a lot of good general advice Yeah. But YC's advice is generally good." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2401.89", "endTime": "2410.93", "body": "Yeah. Maybe we should ban it. It's too powerful. Yeah. They're open sourcing all this good advice that would normally come from venture capitals." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2410.93", "endTime": "2423.1453", "body": "Venture capitalists like effectively like closed source institutions of venture capital of startup wisdom. Yeah. And this is an attack on on the on the tier one VCs. Yeah. And all their great advice." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2423.225", "endTime": "2425.0652", "body": "Their their hard won lessons." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2425.0652", "endTime": "2427.865", "body": "Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. They they had to sit in all their board meetings." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2427.865", "endTime": "2429.34", "body": "And they were tuned out and then And" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2429.34", "endTime": "2432.06", "body": "then YC is basically distilling it and giving it away for free." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2432.1401", "endTime": "2436.3801", "body": "It's crazy. Shut it down. Shut it down. Yeah. Think that was awesome." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2436.78", "endTime": "2449.895", "body": "Like, if you think that startups are good, like why why hate hate on this? I I think the take that says Scott Stephenson Yeah. Who's been on the show over at Spellbook Legal says," }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2449.895", "endTime": "2450.455", "body": "I" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2451.495", "endTime": "2459.56", "body": "have great respect for YC but need to say what many are surely thinking. Startup school in a stadium feels antithetical to the YC brand and to what makes startups work." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2459.56", "endTime": "2469.24", "body": "Yeah. I mean, was a very garage effort when Paul Graham started Y Combinator in Cambridge. It was like, you know, he's cooking for the startups." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2469.995", "endTime": "2489.3699", "body": "The YC brand felt like it was designed to filter out status chasers. The thing is is like being a founder became cool and something desirable. Yeah. And now people get into YC and because of the way that the internet evolved, they're like, they'll make a video with like some clickbait. This photo's insane." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2489.3699", "endTime": "2493.0498", "body": "They'll make a photo with click like a clickbait, you know, you know, cover art" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2493.21", "endTime": "2493.5298", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2493.5298", "endTime": "2498.73", "body": "Thumbnail Yeah. And say like, I just got into YC. Yeah. And so that's just like" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2499.945", "endTime": "2504.1052", "body": "I I I would never make a Being a founder became high to YC twice." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2504.425", "endTime": "2515.24", "body": "When YC started when YC started, being a founder was relatively low status. Yeah. Now it's relatively high status. Yeah. And so status chasers are naturally gonna go through YC." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "2515.24", "endTime": "2515.48", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2515.48", "endTime": "2522.1199", "body": "Now, that's gonna lead to Yeah. A lot of failure Yeah. Because you could shouldn't probably start a company. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2522.1199", "endTime": "2540.74", "body": "In 2012, like everyone that from my like peer group was like, oh, like that sucks for you dude. Like you couldn't get a job at like McKinsey or whatever. Like like like your your your fake startup sounds really exciting dude. Like good luck, you know. It was not like, oh wow, like congrats Like" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 4", "startTime": "2540.9001", "endTime": "2541.1401", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2541.1401", "endTime": "2542.74", "body": "Like stay safe in the tenderloin." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2542.74", "endTime": "2544.1", "body": "Yeah. Exactly. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2544.9001", "endTime": "2545.86", "body": "In your house with like" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2545.86", "endTime": "2546.26", "body": "It's Chase." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2546.26", "endTime": "2547.06", "body": "Four other people." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2547.06", "endTime": "2557.435", "body": "Yeah. I I don't know. I I I get I get it as I I guess I get that that criticism. But just in terms of the content and the aesthetics, electric." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2557.435", "endTime": "2558.075", "body": "Electric." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2558.075", "endTime": "2574.22", "body": "Like you get Jensen on stage at this key moment and he's talking to a bunch of people. Like it's just it's just fun if you're learning about startups to go and see these people talk. If you're really really new. Like if you're if you're and that's what this and that's what startup school is for." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2574.22", "endTime": "2578.3801", "body": "And is it true that Gary Tan did the little yachty walkout with the microphone?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2578.3801", "endTime": "2579.1", "body": "I think he did." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2580.315", "endTime": "2582.555", "body": "Is it true? Because I didn't see a video." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2582.555", "endTime": "2588.075", "body": "Yeah. Did hear that the the pyrotechnics budget for this was over a million" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2588.075", "endTime": "2588.955", "body": "dollars. Wow." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2588.955", "endTime": "2591.515", "body": "Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Explosive. Huge." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2591.6902", "endTime": "2596.6501", "body": "Huge. Enough pyrotechnics to level San Francisco if things went wrong." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2596.6501", "endTime": "2597.2102", "body": "Oh, wow." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2597.2102", "endTime": "2597.9302", "body": "It was sort of That's like a" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2598.01", "endTime": "2598.57", "body": "high stakes." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2598.57", "endTime": "2600.7302", "body": "Bet the bet the farm type of moment. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2601.05", "endTime": "2602.1702", "body": "See. Oh, I see." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2602.33", "endTime": "2609.305", "body": "Yeah. Just constant sparklers and fire works going on. I don't know. I I was into this. But yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2609.305", "endTime": "2615.2249", "body": "People are I guess people are not into it. I don't know. Oh, hi, Sam. I don't know. I think I think" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2615.385", "endTime": "2616.345", "body": "I think it's great." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2616.425", "endTime": "2624.41", "body": "Among our I I I like it. I think it's fun. The great AI psychosis hive mind of San Francisco. Wow. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2624.41", "endTime": "2628.09", "body": "People are all do they all have headphones? What are the headphones for?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2628.89", "endTime": "2630.57", "body": "Interesting. Silent disco?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2631.3699", "endTime": "2641.5852", "body": "So you could listen to the talks? I don't know. And then they gave update for the four and a half thousand attendees. This can successfully pass through TSA. Thank me later." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2642.3052", "endTime": "2652.66", "body": "They gave us a portable battery. Oh, and it looks like a bomb. So people are like but people got it through TSA apparently. Pretty cool. Pretty cool." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2652.66", "endTime": "2664.58", "body": "Anyway, let me tell you about Figma. Agents meet the canvas. Your AI agents can now create modify your Figma files with design system context. In other news, Ilya Sotzkiver raised more money for SSI. He said," }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2665.575", "endTime": "2668.455", "body": "Source Mega-Startup Ronan" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2670.055", "endTime": "2689.3801", "body": "School Jonathan Source their compute over the next twelve months. We reach the point where our research is worth scaling and this partnership will be able to. We are honored by NVIDIA's Just another pod guy?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2689.86", "endTime": "2690.5", "body": "Guess what he says?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2690.5", "endTime": "2690.98", "body": "What'd he say?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2690.98", "endTime": "2697.0752", "body": "You need to do a podcast. Podcast guy says, you need to do another podcast." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2697.395", "endTime": "2708.2751", "body": "On brand. Well, we have the perfect guest to talk about podcasting with because we have Luke Knight Ronan Chambers from ETN, the European Technology Network. Welcome to the show. How you guys doing?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2708.2751", "endTime": "2708.675", "body": "What's going on?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 6", "startTime": "2709.35", "endTime": "2710.6301", "body": "Gentlemen, look at this." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2710.6301", "endTime": "2711.35", "body": "Look at this. That's" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "2711.35", "endTime": "2714.6301", "body": "not beautiful. Look at this. Has this ever happened before? I don't know." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2714.6301", "endTime": "2721.27", "body": "Yeah. Love the shirt. Thank you so much. Here is kick us off with the fundraising news. I want to smash this gong." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 6", "startTime": "2722.3252", "endTime": "2726.1653", "body": "Well, you've seen we we we raised $1,600,000." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "2726.965", "endTime": "2736.5999", "body": "That's good. Congratulations on that. 9,000,000 post money valuation. $9,000,000. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "2736.5999", "endTime": "2737.96", "body": "Announced today, super happy." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2737.96", "endTime": "2745.64", "body": "And new studio, it's it's cooking. It looks huge. You got to trust there. Graphics are are are on point. Everything's coming together." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2745.88", "endTime": "2746.8398", "body": "Can you can you just" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2748.0398", "endTime": "2749.0798", "body": "Look at this." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 6", "startTime": "2749.4", "endTime": "2750.0398", "body": "Us a studio. Rate" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2750.0398", "endTime": "2750.5999", "body": "the studio." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 6", "startTime": "2750.5999", "endTime": "2751.16", "body": "Out of 10." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2752.035", "endTime": "2757.9548", "body": "This is a 10 out of 10. This is this. I don't know. You have everything. There's nothing else that you need." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2757.9548", "endTime": "2760.355", "body": "It's no ultra done finish. It's a good start." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2760.355", "endTime": "2763.81", "body": "This is good. No. You got everything. This is awesome. No." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2763.81", "endTime": "2782.745", "body": "I I love that you guys you know, this is hard. I think you guys know, we know but it looks sort of easy when you just see a clip and it's just a podcast but like the to actually stick with it for a long time is hard. Has the journey been like? What have the hardest moments been? What does it feel like to actually getting here where you have the studio announcing" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2783.145", "endTime": "2791.1602", "body": "this in July of all months. July in Europe notoriously But slow I I mean back in October" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2791.4001", "endTime": "2791.8", "body": "Completely." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2791.8", "endTime": "2794.76", "body": "Be like, hey, we had a great summer. Yeah. We're back." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "2794.76", "endTime": "2807.655", "body": "Well, I actually I actually emailed about 600 people from my from like, you know, the last eight months Yeah. That we've been doing this. And the amount of out of office emails that I got was was actually pretty shocking." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2808.775", "endTime": "2809.4949", "body": "So it's" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "2809.4949", "endTime": "2813.175", "body": "true. It's it's a little it's a little bit worrying, but No. We'll be fine. That that's the whole point. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "2813.175", "endTime": "2814.695", "body": "We're ETM. We can figure it out." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 6", "startTime": "2814.695", "endTime": "2817.97", "body": "We had a we had a checklist to do and I can just I'll I'll wheel it" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2818.13", "endTime": "2818.3699", "body": "Go and" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "2818.3699", "endTime": "2818.69", "body": "grab it." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2818.69", "endTime": "2818.93", "body": "Go and" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "2818.93", "endTime": "2821.49", "body": "grab it. If I can just While you're while you're doing that, the last" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2821.73", "endTime": "2825.0898", "body": "No. The cameras. The PTZs, they they got everything. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "2825.49", "endTime": "2826.6099", "body": "Look at us go." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2827.17", "endTime": "2828.3699", "body": "We figured out everything." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "2829.555", "endTime": "2830.675", "body": "Here we go. Is James" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2831.395", "endTime": "2833.795", "body": "Weeks in the studio today or is he remote?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "2833.795", "endTime": "2835.395", "body": "No. Unfortunately You gotta get" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2835.395", "endTime": "2836.115", "body": "him in the studio." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2836.115", "endTime": "2837.155", "body": "That I mean Can we" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 6", "startTime": "2837.155", "endTime": "2837.875", "body": "go wireframe?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "2837.875", "endTime": "2838.9949", "body": "James the man. Can we" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2838.9949", "endTime": "2839.315", "body": "see that?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "2839.315", "endTime": "2840.115", "body": "Bring it bring it." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2840.115", "endTime": "2843.25", "body": "What's this? To do. Oh. Holiday. Okay." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2843.25", "endTime": "2844.21", "body": "Now on TBPN." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2844.21", "endTime": "2851.81", "body": "There we go. That's amazing. Check it off. Fantastic. So Okay." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2853.665", "endTime": "2866.145", "body": "I love I love that you guys have like so thoroughly reclaimed the whole like Europeans don't work joke that I don't know. It feels like it's completely diffused the meme and now I'm just like, okay, well that's played out." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2866.145", "endTime": "2867.9849", "body": "You're grinding. You're going five days a week now." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2867.9849", "endTime": "2868.465", "body": "You're grinding." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 6", "startTime": "2869.37", "endTime": "2871.53", "body": "They are. You got any advice for us?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2871.53", "endTime": "2876.4102", "body": "What about a cheeky long weekend? Ibiza. Ibiza. Ibiza." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "2876.81", "endTime": "2879.05", "body": "Little Ibiza weekend. You guys are recently" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 6", "startTime": "2879.05", "endTime": "2882.105", "body": "in France. Was was the trip" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "2882.105", "endTime": "2884.345", "body": "to Yeah. Hold on. You went to was" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2885.065", "endTime": "2886.745", "body": "not was non functional." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2886.825", "endTime": "2912.0852", "body": "I legit that actually shocked me so much because I you know you hear these jokes about like, oh Europeans take long holidays or like there's no air conditioning over there. And I always think that it's the Americans going a little bit too far with the bit and so I assumed I was like, oh yeah the AC thing that's probably just like in random places there won't be air conditioning. No. Like the all of France doesn't have air conditioning. It's crazy." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "2912.5652", "endTime": "2917.205", "body": "All of Europe honestly doesn't have air conditioning. Yeah. I mean, we've got so London's been brutal." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2917.205", "endTime": "2926.31", "body": "So are you talking to startup founders that are thinking about solving this? We were there being like, this just the most obvious business ever? Just create an air conditioning company of Europe?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2926.31", "endTime": "2934.3901", "body": "Kids in the Gundo should start the air conditioning company of Europe Yeah. And just land on the beaches and just start bringing in units. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 6", "startTime": "2934.79", "endTime": "2942.0752", "body": "Is anyone They'll good merch with that name too Well, I know that one of the Collison brothers has put out loads of posts around how people are literally dying" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2942.235", "endTime": "2942.475", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 6", "startTime": "2942.475", "endTime": "2948.7952", "body": "Yeah. From their lack of AC and no one's It's crazy. No one's thought to thought this out. Like when we had the heat wave recently" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "2948.955", "endTime": "2960.5", "body": "here in Maybe we'll have to get one of our interns to get on incubation. We got a quick website, you know, get an intern, you know, shipping in some AC units from wherever they ship them in from." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2960.5", "endTime": "2961.14", "body": "I like it." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 6", "startTime": "2961.14", "endTime": "2963.78", "body": "I like Yeah. Talk yeah. Talk to our own Woah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2964.2751", "endTime": "2965.075", "body": "Okay. Woah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2965.075", "endTime": "2968.355", "body": "There we go. Oh, intern cam. I like" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "2968.355", "endTime": "2969.3152", "body": "it. Attention." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 6", "startTime": "2969.715", "endTime": "2970.3552", "body": "That's great." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2970.595", "endTime": "2991.35", "body": "What's up, lads? Okay. So I mean, obviously, like there are a lot of element down to the PTZ cameras, you're clearly standing on the shoulders of of us. You have the picture right there. And and and it's great because like we've defined a bunch of different like patterns that allow this business to work." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "2991.35", "endTime": "3006.375", "body": "Like when I see the logos at the bottom of the ticker, I'm like, that's great. That allows you to pay for the studio and the interns. Where do you see the show going? Where do you want the differentiation to be? Because you're already differentiated just in the fact that Europe is different than the stuff we talk about." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3006.375", "endTime": "3018.59", "body": "You cover stories that way way deeper than we do if it's about Europe. But are there other are there other things that you're that you're thinking about where you're like, yeah, actually, like, we want to go a completely different direction with this?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "3019.07", "endTime": "3027.475", "body": "Yeah. Sure. That's a really good question because when we we we actually didn't think that we would raise any money. No. We're doing pretty well." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "3027.7952", "endTime": "3053.185", "body": "As you mentioned, the the ads model, you know, what what you guys have have kind of built in terms of a model is great. Right? But then when we figured out how big the opportunity is in Europe specifically, we realized that raising the money was it had it had legs. We were like, okay. This thing can be really big because it is the live show, but we see that as, like, the kind of wedge in the door, the foot in the door to kind of to build the network, and then it's a network." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "3053.185", "endTime": "3072.92", "body": "Right? So think about potentially a summit business or whatever it is. Like, the the European ecosystem needs that. So and and it's not kind of as developed as as the ecosystem over there. So it's like if we can kind of, you know, almost almost kind of piggyback off that Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "3073.0", "endTime": "3080.165", "body": "Off that model and then build on top of that, I think, yeah, the the sky's the limit. We can we can go very big, which is exciting. I think, like, long" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3080.165", "endTime": "3080.485", "body": "term, you" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 6", "startTime": "3080.485", "endTime": "3096.1401", "body": "can see it, like, in a way where the show would just become the advertising department for a huge media conglomerate. Sure. So we could do the Summit Business. You could even open a recruitment model off the back that you can look at a fund off the back of that. Mean, you guys have probably gone through all these ideas anyway and you've probably chosen, let's just nail this." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 6", "startTime": "3096.1401", "endTime": "3104.06", "body": "You guys were first to do this. You were first to create the model. So I don't think there would be a need for you guys to innovate because you smashed it. You don't need to. You had first mover advantage and you and you crushed it." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "3104.06", "endTime": "3106.54", "body": "You're us to rest on our laurels?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3108.2249", "endTime": "3114.385", "body": "Didn't put laurels on the merch. So it's not not what happened. So" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "3114.385", "endTime": "3114.785", "body": "we're gonna" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 6", "startTime": "3114.9448", "endTime": "3117.825", "body": "Can we do a breaking TBPN resting on laurels?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3118.545", "endTime": "3131.02", "body": "You've so so so like you you guys have been successful with like the TBPN for Europe model. There's also TBPN for car dealerships over here. I don't know if you're familiar with this. The car dealership guy has a" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "3131.02", "endTime": "3131.98", "body": "live You guys talked about" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3131.98", "endTime": "3136.865", "body": "it. Yeah. Had him on the show. We've talked it. And it's great because like we never cover car dealership news." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3136.865", "endTime": "3167.365", "body": "It's a great it's every once in while but not not on the dealers. And so and so it's great to like take the best practices of like, you know, what the lighting should look like, what the truss looks like, what the logos and stuff. Like learn from the best practices and then take the content in a different direction so that you're offering a differentiated product. Is there a European car dealership? Are there spin offs of you yet or more sub markets in Europe for like the European crypto ETN?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 6", "startTime": "3168.165", "endTime": "3178.14", "body": "I think well well well, when when we first started, I think it was just you guys, and then I feel like Ecom Cowboys popped up. Yeah. I think there were Flashback. You guys covered here" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3178.14", "endTime": "3178.5398", "body": "we go." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "3178.5398", "endTime": "3179.5", "body": "You guys covered Do" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3179.5", "endTime": "3183.66", "body": "you guys have Flashback yet? You guys have a Flashback yet? You gotta get on that." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "3184.235", "endTime": "3184.875", "body": "We thought" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 6", "startTime": "3184.875", "endTime": "3185.7551", "body": "it would come." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3186.875", "endTime": "3189.2751", "body": "Yeah. Yeah. The dance." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 6", "startTime": "3189.2751", "endTime": "3189.915", "body": "That's good." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3189.915", "endTime": "3190.395", "body": "How do we" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "3190.395", "endTime": "3192.075", "body": "we need on to our get on to" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3192.075", "endTime": "3192.5552", "body": "our frame?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "3193.355", "endTime": "3194.635", "body": "What can we Get on to our frame." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3194.635", "endTime": "3203.85", "body": "If you oh, yeah. What tricks do you have up for your sleep? You got some We got a few tricks. Should I throw some 11 labs out or something? What what you got?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3204.4102", "endTime": "3205.4502", "body": "We can go ad for that." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 6", "startTime": "3205.4502", "endTime": "3207.77", "body": "Was admugging as earlier. Wait. Can we go ad for ad?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3207.77", "endTime": "3209.05", "body": "Yeah. What yeah. What you got?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "3209.4502", "endTime": "3210.49", "body": "I don't know if we oh, here" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3210.49", "endTime": "3210.73", "body": "we go." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 6", "startTime": "3210.73", "endTime": "3212.495", "body": "Let's go. Framer. Build better." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3212.495", "endTime": "3220.175", "body": "This is a good this is a good stinger. This is a really well integrated stinger. We're flashbanging it again. We're smoking it. It's over." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3220.415", "endTime": "3229.62", "body": "Man. I think how long are your ad reads? This this stays up on the screen a little too long. Do you have to click it to come off?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 6", "startTime": "3230.26", "endTime": "3231.06", "body": "That's a good question." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3231.06", "endTime": "3238.34", "body": "I think I think my feedback would be a little bit tighter on that. A little bit tighter. You don't want people getting distracted." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "3238.34", "endTime": "3241.94", "body": "Is someone writing this down? Yeah. It's recorded. We'll get it on Grenada." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3243.0852", "endTime": "3245.405", "body": "Are they sponsored too? No, they're not." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 6", "startTime": "3245.405", "endTime": "3248.685", "body": "This is Day Ollie. Working on it. Working on it." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3248.685", "endTime": "3249.0852", "body": "This is the" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "3249.0852", "endTime": "3250.7651", "body": "worst it will ever be, boys, so it's fine." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 8", "startTime": "3250.7651", "endTime": "3251.245", "body": "It's Day Ollie." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "3251.245", "endTime": "3252.205", "body": "Will always get better." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 5", "startTime": "3252.205", "endTime": "3252.605", "body": "That's right." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "3252.605", "endTime": "3254.7651", "body": "What was the question? I forgot the question." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3254.7651", "endTime": "3269.84", "body": "The question was just like what else? Is there demand for a ETN for Yes. In Europe? So there was demand for TBPN for car dealerships. There was also TBPN Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3270.8801", "endTime": "3287.0852", "body": "For crypto because we don't really talk about crypto that much. There's been a few other like spin offs that have made sense and a lot of them have gone their own ways. They don't even look like us anymore. There's like all these different things you can do. But they adopted like some of the best practices of like the ad market, the ad model and some of the overlays and some of the live." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3287.36", "endTime": "3294.48", "body": "But what I'm interested is like where what else is going on in Europe that might demand a live show?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "3296.6401", "endTime": "3311.905", "body": "That's not Okay. So in so when we when we started the model, started ETM, we were like, this could be done in you know, you you mentioned, like, car dealerships. This could be done in fashion. I could get two people to come, you know, do a live show for fashion." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3311.905", "endTime": "3313.5051", "body": "I think good. Especially in Europe." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 6", "startTime": "3313.5051", "endTime": "3314.465", "body": "A cooking show, whatever it is." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3314.465", "endTime": "3315.745", "body": "The houses are there. Like" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 6", "startTime": "3316.17", "endTime": "3316.97", "body": "Yeah. Literally." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 8", "startTime": "3316.97", "endTime": "3317.3699", "body": "Yeah. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "3317.3699", "endTime": "3334.345", "body": "Yeah. So it's like so someone could do that, get the best designer designers on every day to talk about I don't know how fashion works, but like new jeans that they've just like designed or whatever it is. Right? So like, I think that I think you could go, like, category, you know, specific and and verticalize in in a category. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "3334.345", "endTime": "3351.56", "body": "In Europe, specifically, not yet. I mean, we're, what, ten months in, so we'll see we'll see what happens, like, towards the end of the year. You guys were going for, I don't know, at least, I don't know, maybe nine months before before we caught on and we were like, look, this needs to be done in Europe. This is a great model." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "3351.56", "endTime": "3353.4001", "body": "What were you guys doing for the first three months?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3353.4001", "endTime": "3355.595", "body": "Vacation. We know the bit. No." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "3355.595", "endTime": "3360.075", "body": "You guys should do you guys should do TBPN for Euro summers." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3360.4749", "endTime": "3362.075", "body": "There we go. Just daily." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 6", "startTime": "3362.075", "endTime": "3368.7148", "body": "We've gone the to be fair. We did Yeah. We did Monaco with a 16 z which is great. We saw Anish who I know Yeah. Knows you, Jordy." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 6", "startTime": "3368.82", "endTime": "3377.1401", "body": "We had Nico on, which is awesome. Greece and yeah. Greece with Panathena. We were at the Louvre in Paris." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3377.1401", "endTime": "3377.3801", "body": "Oh, right." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "3377.3801", "endTime": "3383.845", "body": "So we got started on on on vacation destination. Now you're I mean, there are. We" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "3388.565", "endTime": "3392.165", "body": "the only destinations where we actually wanna like, you know, vacate Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 6", "startTime": "3392.7249", "endTime": "3394.2449", "body": "But it's good model. Do" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "3394.2449", "endTime": "3399.8901", "body": "we you should do an AI pause so that the AI researchers can go to Ibiza?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 6", "startTime": "3400.8499", "endTime": "3406.05", "body": "What do I I'm off for a week. I mean, they're all all gonna be be so so mean, so" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "3406.13", "endTime": "3406.8499", "body": "One week pause." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "3408.9248", "endTime": "3410.605", "body": "Months pause maybe." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3410.605", "endTime": "3410.845", "body": "If you" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "3410.845", "endTime": "3415.4048", "body": "can get if you can get all the Frontier Labs to sign off on that like Jensen did for his Yeah. Global" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 6", "startTime": "3415.6448", "endTime": "3417.7249", "body": "A AI summer. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "3417.7249", "endTime": "3426.62", "body": "Last question. Do you have a do you a like an intern an on camera intern? Our our original intern has evolved into a" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3426.78", "endTime": "3427.42", "body": "Co host." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "3427.42", "endTime": "3428.22", "body": "Into a Co" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 6", "startTime": "3428.22", "endTime": "3429.18", "body": "hosting now. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "3429.18", "endTime": "3430.54", "body": "Yeah. We we we've not got a we've" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 6", "startTime": "3430.54", "endTime": "3445.395", "body": "not got a title yet. Okay. We did put a job out for two interns, and we got, like, 360 applicants. And there's people from based in SF that had interned at, Tesla, SpaceX, hanging us to be like, can we work? I'm moving" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3445.395", "endTime": "3446.9949", "body": "to Europe. That's sick." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 6", "startTime": "3446.9949", "endTime": "3449.3398", "body": "Yeah. Which is which was nuts. But I don't think we can make" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3449.3398", "endTime": "3449.5", "body": "that one." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "3449.5", "endTime": "3454.78", "body": "They wanted to Europe. Yeah. Wanted to Euro Max with us and we thought That's great. You probably are too qualified and we couldn't afford you." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "3454.78", "endTime": "3455.98", "body": "You know?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3455.98", "endTime": "3467.945", "body": "What what what's the European version of the gong? We just ran we should have done a a bell in America Yeah. Actually ring the bell. We randomly went with a gong which is very Asian." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "3467.945", "endTime": "3476.58", "body": "I think a big case. Did that. Just Today we did. We did saber a Oh, you saber a champagne bottle. That's good." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "3476.58", "endTime": "3480.58", "body": "We did saber it. We'll send you the video of us sabering it, but as you can see It's not this. It's" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 6", "startTime": "3481.9402", "endTime": "3482.82", "body": "Okay. We've got a" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "3482.82", "endTime": "3483.7002", "body": "TBPN And" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3483.7002", "endTime": "3484.02", "body": "there we go." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 6", "startTime": "3484.1802", "endTime": "3486.6602", "body": "The lights. There we go." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3487.3", "endTime": "3496.5251", "body": "Oh, that's pretty Works better than show. I like That's show. I like this this one. This is a good example of q. Too long though." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3496.765", "endTime": "3500.845", "body": "Oh, wait. Actually, if you're play the whole song for a little bit, then you're good. Then you're good. Yeah. It's gonna" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 6", "startTime": "3500.845", "endTime": "3502.045", "body": "be like intros sometimes," }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3502.045", "endTime": "3503.4849", "body": "I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "3503.52", "endTime": "3506.8", "body": "Sports tune." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "3506.8", "endTime": "3516.8352", "body": "Just like just like AI, you guys are like nine six six, you know, maybe twelve months behind. But We" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "3518.435", "endTime": "3520.915", "body": "concurrent had to keep with the, you know Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 6", "startTime": "3521.3152", "endTime": "3525.235", "body": "It's good. It's good. We need get the flash one going though. Yeah. You" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "3525.475", "endTime": "3527.875", "body": "guys, we're we're happy for you guys to distill the" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 9", "startTime": "3528.355", "endTime": "3530.23", "body": "Shots fired." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3530.23", "endTime": "3533.11", "body": "I like that one. Like that one." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "3533.11", "endTime": "3534.9502", "body": "Hey, don't give them any ideas. They'll take off." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3534.9502", "endTime": "3535.83", "body": "Yeah. No. No." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "3535.83", "endTime": "3536.07", "body": "We're going" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3536.07", "endTime": "3544.7048", "body": "to distill it back. Know, it's like when you ask Claude what model it is in Chinese and it says it's deep sea. It's like goes by the way sometimes. You never know. No." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3544.7048", "endTime": "3554.945", "body": "Like I think what's the what's the best is that this this can be a grind like five days a week, a lot of stuff. Just a lot of work and it just seems like you guys are having fun. Are you guys having fun?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "3555.665", "endTime": "3559.45", "body": "We're having fun. The most fun we've ever had. It's it's great. Yeah. It's great." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "3559.45", "endTime": "3565.21", "body": "We get to talk to cool people and, you know, we're two mates talking to each other for a living. It's great." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3565.21", "endTime": "3566.81", "body": "That's the best. Amazing. Best." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "3566.81", "endTime": "3567.69", "body": "Exactly. So so" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3567.69", "endTime": "3568.25", "body": "for you guys. You guys" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "3568.25", "endTime": "3569.45", "body": "are living the dream, so are we." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3569.45", "endTime": "3570.25", "body": "Well, congratulations." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 6", "startTime": "3570.25", "endTime": "3573.735", "body": "Wait, before we go, I wanna ask, Can we get some Lucy's for the studio?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3573.815", "endTime": "3575.895", "body": "I'd be happy. I'll send you a whole vending machine." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "3576.375", "endTime": "3577.095", "body": "Really? Yeah. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3577.095", "endTime": "3579.4949", "body": "Yeah. We'll see how we'll send it to you. I love it. Yeah. It's amazing." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 6", "startTime": "3579.4949", "endTime": "3580.135", "body": "Oh, yeah. I'd be happy" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "3580.135", "endTime": "3582.4548", "body": "to We're European. We need those." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3582.4548", "endTime": "3587.1602", "body": "Yeah. Yes. Send me your address and yeah. We'll we'll chat offline, but we'll we'll we'll send you a bunch of stuff. No problem." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3587.1602", "endTime": "3587.96", "body": "Maybe you could be coming to" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "3587.96", "endTime": "3593.4001", "body": "the server if that's illegal. Yeah. That'd be great. Great to see you guys. Congratulations on the new funding and congrats to the whole team." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3593.4001", "endTime": "3594.76", "body": "We'll talk to you soon. Have a good one." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "3594.76", "endTime": "3595.8801", "body": "Appreciate it, boys. Cheers. Goodbye." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3595.8801", "endTime": "3605.2751", "body": "See you. Let me tell you about Cisco. Critical infrastructure for the AI era. Unlock seamless real time experiences and new value with Cisco. What a great crossover." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3605.435", "endTime": "3614.82", "body": "You'll love to see it. Well, we have Gary Vaynerchuk, Creator Vee friends back on the show. Third time. Love catching up with Gary Vee. We'll go all over the place." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3614.82", "endTime": "3620.42", "body": "Creator economy, AI, open source, building stuff. How you doing Gary?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "3620.42", "endTime": "3621.46", "body": "What's up? Gary is." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "3622.0999", "endTime": "3622.42", "body": "Men." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "3623.545", "endTime": "3624.985", "body": "Men. Men? Men." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3624.985", "endTime": "3625.865", "body": "Men. What's" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "3630.5051", "endTime": "3630.905", "body": "happening?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3630.905", "endTime": "3649.76", "body": "Okay. I want to I want to start with unless you have something to kick right off with. I want to start with something. I like I've been seeing these these videos of you from like years and years ago with just these like crazy crazy accurate calls about the future. What what victory lap do you like to take the most?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3649.76", "endTime": "3654.4802", "body": "Like like what what's the one call when you think back where you're like, damn, I really nailed that one." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "3657.095", "endTime": "3673.0", "body": "Social. Like if I'm being honest, like like, no. It's like, it's crazy. Too bad I wasn't making the videos back then. Like, just my complete conviction on Facebook and Twitter, completely unearthing and changing the world." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3673.0", "endTime": "3673.56", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "3673.8", "endTime": "3688.865", "body": "No. It's ironic timing. Met with someone today, haven't talked to him like twelve, thirteen years. You know, retired gentleman, I met him early on. He's like, he's like, it's crazy how much you believed in that stuff, and how dismissive we all were." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "3689.9849", "endTime": "3724.005", "body": "But there's, you know, I'd listen, the only One of the few things I really do well in business is I don't let my audacity, or my current financial situation, or what I would like to happen financially dictate my observations of the consumer. I don't think I'm smarter than anyone, or have a bigger knack. I think you have now let me give some flowers to you boys. You have some of the greatest people on here, right? You guys have crushed." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "3724.005", "endTime": "3729.39", "body": "You've also gotten much better at your actual job in interviewing, because you know, I'm a day one with you guys. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 8", "startTime": "3729.39", "endTime": "3730.03", "body": "So I just want to give you" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "3730.03", "endTime": "3731.63", "body": "some flowers. Guys are getting better and better." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3731.63", "endTime": "3732.11", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "3732.51", "endTime": "3753.27", "body": "All these brilliant people you have, it's not that I know it better, or I don't know it better. It's that I'm willing to completely change course of what I think is working for me, or I'm willing to lose all my money to be historically correct. I'm not talking about things that I want to happen for my financial interest." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3753.27", "endTime": "3753.51", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "3753.51", "endTime": "3755.83", "body": "I'm talking about what consumers are actually doing." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3756.23", "endTime": "3757.59", "body": "Do you think you were more bullish" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "3757.83", "endTime": "3758.87", "body": "Well, and the other thing is that" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3758.87", "endTime": "3784.41", "body": "there's like the actual platforms? Like, because it was like when I look back at some of those calls about like the pivot away from the there's this one where you're like looking at the newspaper and you're like nobody's going to use the newspaper. They're just going to get their news online from other people and it's like a very accurate prediction. But but it but it's like that distinctly wasn't coming from like Mark Zuckerberg in 2008. He was just saying like, I built this cool website." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3784.41", "endTime": "3785.29", "body": "Like it's fun." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "3785.45", "endTime": "3786.97", "body": "He said, I'm connecting the world." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "3786.97", "endTime": "3801.185", "body": "Yeah. It was connection. When I you know, I think that I You know, when you go read Crush It, the first book I wrote, I wrote in 2008, also in that time. I am fully predicting, and you guys know this. We've talked off." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "3801.185", "endTime": "3805.3452", "body": "Like, I predict Like, literally, there's parts of the book that talk about what you guys are doing right now." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3805.63", "endTime": "3809.6301", "body": "Yeah. Yeah. No. I didn't streaming too." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "3809.95", "endTime": "3814.91", "body": "Yeah. And don't forget, we just came out of Friendster and Myspace failing." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3814.91", "endTime": "3815.55", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "3816.1099", "endTime": "3829.685", "body": "So my thesis wasn't necessarily now look, I thought Mark was generational because I had spent some time with him, and like, I ended up being very right about that. And I thought Twitter was incredibly unique, so I was bullish on those platforms, but I was incredibly agnostic to your point." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "3829.685", "endTime": "3830.0051", "body": "Mhmm." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "3830.0051", "endTime": "3859.695", "body": "I was Whether it was called Facebook or Twitter, or the many things that failed along the way. Socialcam, Peach, Vine, you know, like LinkedIn, or YouTube, or Twitch, or TikTok. It didn't matter. Apps that connected people on top of the internet, I knew had to win because of the network effect of scale, and no gatekeeper in between. You think you two handsome young bozos would have gotten on CNBC?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "3860.255", "endTime": "3861.535", "body": "You would have had to wait." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3861.535", "endTime": "3861.855", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "3862.69", "endTime": "3867.01", "body": "But I knew that you could just do it Bozo. And then it's like sports." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3867.6501", "endTime": "3871.17", "body": "It's sports. We love the term Bozo. It's like I like football. Underrated. Underrated." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3871.25", "endTime": "3875.9849", "body": "Good. Because it's not It's It's like only slightly derogatory, but it's like totally not a bad" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "3876.2249", "endTime": "3878.865", "body": "It's a great word." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "3879.105", "endTime": "3879.825", "body": "It's a sweet thing." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3879.825", "endTime": "3880.785", "body": "It's a great word." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "3881.105", "endTime": "3888.785", "body": "You know, you guys have become very influential and definitely the people watching are very influential. Can we all collectively put our hands in the pot and I'll bring bozo back? It would" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "3889.31", "endTime": "3894.43", "body": "It's bozo time. Golden retrievers are kind of bozos. Lovable. No." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3894.43", "endTime": "3894.83", "body": "No. No." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "3894.83", "endTime": "3896.75", "body": "We have golden retriever mode." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3896.75", "endTime": "3899.15", "body": "Yeah. Yeah. But yeah. Better distillation. Jordy, sorry." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3899.15", "endTime": "3899.55", "body": "Cut you off." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "3899.55", "endTime": "3899.79", "body": "What were" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3899.79", "endTime": "3900.51", "body": "you gonna ask?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "3900.75", "endTime": "3915.625", "body": "Well, yeah. I think I think what was interesting about your call is you were bullish on the platforms, but the take wasn't just you should invest in Facebook. It was like you should just put stuff out every single day and you've been remarkably consistent with that." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "3915.625", "endTime": "3930.7302", "body": "Yeah. Yeah. And it was it was real for three guys like us that could go from zero notoriety to a lot, and literally the most famous people in the world right now. You know, at least a third of them are either streamers or purely on social. They have no television." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "3930.97", "endTime": "3935.0852", "body": "They have no, you know, theatrical. They have no other platform." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "3935.0852", "endTime": "3943.3252", "body": "Yeah. TV is now coming to them and saying, hey, could we work something out? You clearly have demand for your content. We want to get it on our I" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "3943.965", "endTime": "3968.795", "body": "started a company a couple years ago called Vaynerchuk, w a t t. It's a TV production company, and we were bombarded by the distributors for me to get access to the Stephen Bartlett's or the Hermosys or the Cody Sanchez's or the like, it's all here. And what's crazy is, like, YouTube, for example. Right? There's 900 genres that should be doing what you're doing right now." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3969.035", "endTime": "3982.08", "body": "Yeah. We just talked to some folks who are doing this show for Europe specifically, and there's one that's for car dealers, crypto and there's a whole bunch of different sort of like and it's not even like we're the first live streamers, obviously. Just took them" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "3982.24", "endTime": "3993.5251", "body": "Still, the funny you know the craziest the craziest thing? No one has done TBPN for the market open. Like, you're in New York. Yeah. You're in New York." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "3993.7651", "endTime": "3996.965", "body": "You start at I" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "3996.965", "endTime": "3998.645", "body": "know someone that's working on it." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "3998.645", "endTime": "4009.8901", "body": "Yeah. We know we know we know a couple of people, but the fact that we're eighteen months in and no one saw what we're doing, we go live at eleven Pacific, so we're going live at noon. The market has been open and" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4009.8901", "endTime": "4013.8901", "body": "Which is which is an indication of your laziness. You guys should wake up early." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "4015.49", "endTime": "4017.57", "body": "Do wake up early, but we do a team workout." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "4017.57", "endTime": "4054.1648", "body": "And and it's more it's more an indication of our of our fascination with private markets versus public markets and and like longer term, less quarter by quarter, less day by day market moves and more twelve to eighteen month fundraising cycles for private technology And so I think that my natural interest is in the private markets and the earlier stage technology. So if I was trying to cover, you know, the day by day in the market what oil is doing and how that's affecting, you know, GE and Boeing. I would just be a little bit less sharp than if I'm talking about, you know" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4054.325", "endTime": "4054.645", "body": "That makes sense." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "4054.645", "endTime": "4055.2048", "body": "Private market." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4055.2048", "endTime": "4074.35", "body": "And and honestly, that's what, you know, back to crush it, back to you guys, back to all of this what you're already Yeah. Like the whole theme of this interview. The fact that people that are watching that are deeply sports like you TBPN for Yeah. Sports with talent like you guys is is ESPN's biggest nightmare. Well, they don't even" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "4074.35", "endTime": "4075.6301", "body": "sort of have it. Right? Isn't" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4076.03", "endTime": "4078.1948", "body": "Really have it. Yeah. Of course. Of course. I mean" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "4078.4348", "endTime": "4080.835", "body": "But they have to pay him like 60,000,000 a year." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "4080.835", "endTime": "4081.555", "body": "They do." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4081.635", "endTime": "4095.79", "body": "And and Pat had to be lucky enough of all the serendipity that led led to that. There are 913 Pat McAfee's. And I mean, and Pat's incredibly charismatic and talented. You guys are as well. But the long tail Mhmm." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4095.79", "endTime": "4098.5103", "body": "Of knowledgeable or charismatic individuals" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "4098.75", "endTime": "4098.99", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4098.99", "endTime": "4106.655", "body": "Is quite long. Now, everyone has a different upside. Right? Like like, again, somebody could replicate this exact show." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "4106.655", "endTime": "4107.135", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4107.455", "endTime": "4113.455", "body": "And if they're really just much sharper and more entertaining Yeah. They will take market share. Yeah. That's just how" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "4113.455", "endTime": "4113.695", "body": "it works." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "4113.695", "endTime": "4134.185", "body": "Well, the other the other thing about sports versus business that's interesting is like sports, there's so many people that played sports whether it's college or professionally and then they stopped being able to play at that level and they're like Yes. Well, what's the best thing I should do? I should just talk about the game that I love. Yeah. Whereas in business, you don't get to a point where you're better at talking about it necessarily than doing it." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "4134.185", "endTime": "4136.505", "body": "There's a lot of people that that that could" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4136.745", "endTime": "4137.8647", "body": "That's so well said." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "4137.945", "endTime": "4138.3447", "body": "And and" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4138.425", "endTime": "4151.21", "body": "And there's another thing. I just turned 50, and like literally this morning, like no bullshit. I'm like, am I starting to enter my prime? Like, a property property?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "4151.77", "endTime": "4159.37", "body": "That's such a crazy philosophy. You're just like, I'm having whatever the inverse of a midlife crisis is, that's me." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "4160.615", "endTime": "4164.615", "body": "You know what's funny Wait. Wait. Is the generational run just beginning?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4165.335", "endTime": "4186.72", "body": "No. Love it. I really like and it's funny and I have a funny feeling especially given the incredible nature of your audience. I think when that was just delivered a few minutes ago Yeah. There's just a lot of people that really understand it because, you know, my whole life, and probably many others watching it, you wish you were an athlete, but if you were an entrepreneur, kind of realize at 30, you're like, wait a minute." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4186.965", "endTime": "4204.65", "body": "If I was an athlete, and I was great, I'd be kind of wrapping it up, or like thinking about post, and I own a large sports agency. My brother and I own a very large sports agency now called Vayner Sports. You know, I feel for these kids. This is what they were meant to do. They're 35 years old, they're like, what do I do with my you know, like just like really" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "4204.65", "endTime": "4231.855", "body": "intense I I truly I feel so blessed to have always been obsessed with business. Like I never I never came I, you know, I got very into surfing, but I never liked surfing as much as business Yeah. And being having a love for something that you can do for a lifetime. Even more so people say like, oh, you should play tennis because you can play it, you know you know, basically Yeah. Indefinitely." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "4232.015", "endTime": "4235.15", "body": "But it's like, well, you can you can do deals for" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4235.15", "endTime": "4236.9897", "body": "truly segue. That's a" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "4237.55", "endTime": "4239.9497", "body": "Yeah. Yes. This is what we always we always bring up" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "4240.03", "endTime": "4240.91", "body": "It's got a segue." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "4240.91", "endTime": "4251.425", "body": "We we we sorry. One one second. We we always we always bring up Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger. It's like the greatest the greatest run of that career happened from like '50 to '90. It's like that's No." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "4251.425", "endTime": "4251.665", "body": "So" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "4252.225", "endTime": "4255.3447", "body": "But wasn't it more like 70 to 90 or like 80?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4255.3447", "endTime": "4259.84", "body": "It was. It was like 60 like that's right. So segue. Yeah. You just brought up Please." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4259.84", "endTime": "4268.7197", "body": "Tennis. I've done incredibly well. I think this is important for a lot of people. Again, I'm always thinking about the audience. Alternative sports league investing." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "4269.44", "endTime": "4269.68", "body": "Mhmm." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4269.68", "endTime": "4274.445", "body": "I think you guys, I think there's some more fun stuff you guys could be doing about that. It's gone really well for me." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "4274.5254", "endTime": "4282.765", "body": "Yeah. Had Alexis on. He he has the running running league which is cool. Had the the founder of enhanced games on." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "4283.5503", "endTime": "4288.03", "body": "Yep. Yeah. There's some article in the journal today. Is Padel the next pickleball?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4288.43", "endTime": "4296.67", "body": "Right. So pickleball was a huge win for me. Right? I bought a team for 500,000 pre COVID. They're trading at 16,000,000 right now in our Major League Pickleball League." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4297.625", "endTime": "4297.9453", "body": "Right?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "4297.9453", "endTime": "4300.345", "body": "I So do people watch pickleball?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4301.145", "endTime": "4310.345", "body": "Yes. That's why that's why I invest. So I have a little bit of a secret of why I think I'm doing well, because I'm doing well with this Wiffleball League that is starting to get some juice. We got some great owners in that." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "4310.345", "endTime": "4312.4253", "body": "Let's go. Wiffleball boys. Let's go." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4313.25", "endTime": "4328.45", "body": "I have one little advantage. It's back to this and we've had some meetings off camera and you guys know I'm like pretty in the weeds with like how communication and marketing works. The reason I invested in Pickle is Pickle highlights even seven years ago massively over indexed on social." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "4328.885", "endTime": "4329.685", "body": "Oh, sure." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "4329.685", "endTime": "4340.885", "body": "Yeah. Right? Like Yeah. But but the but the thing is I do wonder if that's so so Dana White has the the slap fighting league. Yes." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "4340.885", "endTime": "4353.83", "body": "I forgot what it's called. And that's something that does incredibly well on social, but I don't know anyone, even hardcore MMA fans. It's like, can't wait for the card this weekend. Yep. I'm gonna watch live." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "4353.83", "endTime": "4353.99", "body": "Two things." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4355.0747", "endTime": "4371.6797", "body": "Two things. One, ish on incredibly well on social. You have to, you know, when when you because I've looked at that as well, and a lot of it is driven by the TKO machine Yeah. Much more than, you know, the organic nature of what I'm seeing Well," }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "4371.76", "endTime": "4376.56", "body": "and seeing somebody that's about to get hit in the face is like Yeah. Naturally scroll stopping. Even if it's not a" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4376.56", "endTime": "4395.325", "body": "good There's also something that people don't realize about sports that matters if you're going to watch it, which is your capacity to participate in it. Yeah. Right? Like like like people a lot when people try to zing pickleball, they're like, yeah, everyone's playing it, but is it a business? And I was like, literally those are the articles that were written about tennis and golf Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4395.325", "endTime": "4401.4097", "body": "Fifty, sixty, seventy, eighty years ago. It's like, it's funny. By the way, back to your first question, the other thing I do pretty well" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "4401.65", "endTime": "4401.9697", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4401.9697", "endTime": "4422.355", "body": "That I hope other people do, so I'm saying it out loud, is I really use history along with paying attention to people. So for example, the biggest sports in America in the twenties and thirties were horse racing, boxing, and baseball. Those sports were very good on radio, but football is not a great radio sport." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "4423.5503", "endTime": "4424.1904", "body": "Interesting." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4424.1904", "endTime": "4430.83", "body": "Football exploded with the television. If you look at the explosion of the football, it came along with television." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "4430.91", "endTime": "4431.31", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4431.31", "endTime": "4436.35", "body": "And so, to streaming, what you guys are doing right now. One of the reasons I'm invested in the sailing league," }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "4451.94", "endTime": "4453.62", "body": "crazy. Alright. I got one." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4453.62", "endTime": "4474.0146", "body": "The reason I did it was I knew I didn't need Just like you guys didn't need CNBC to be like, you're the right on air talent. Mhmm. Our All these alternative leagues do not need ESPN or you know, Fox Sports Mhmm. To say yes. People can see this stuff through these platforms and that's going to continue in an AR, VR." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4474.0146", "endTime": "4478.3345", "body": "Sure. Like we're going into an incredible era of opportunity and meritocracy." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "4478.335", "endTime": "4495.055", "body": "Yeah. Real quick. What was your reaction to the World Cup? Do you think that flopping will and flopping culture will will forever prevent America from actually getting into do you think that's a bottleneck to No." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4495.535", "endTime": "4500.7354", "body": "That's not a bottle. Americans are hypocrites. We love basketball. SGA is the greatest flopper of all time." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "4503.96", "endTime": "4517.2397", "body": "I have I don't watch enough I I haven't watched enough basketball to to to have even seen SGA flop, but I feel like the I feel like in Europe, they appreciate the the drama and that it's almost like the the acting of" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4517.2397", "endTime": "4518.04", "body": "But it then" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "4518.04", "endTime": "4532.0947", "body": "you watch the replay and and it's like, you know, Americans that are used to watching, you know, some corn fed linebacker run through a guy and the guy just gets up instantly. Oh, You know, it's hard to then go watch somebody flop and completely fake an injury. I" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4532.735", "endTime": "4574.67", "body": "I think that soccer players at this point have this incredible four to 7% Academy Award like acting capabilities that probably piss people off, but I agree with you. I'll use football because football is a sport that people hate when they first see it, and then they become infatuated with it because it stops and starts and stops and starts. Especially the world, immigrants coming to The US when they're used to soccer, which is flowing, they hate it. And then inevitably within a decade they love it Because you start falling in love with all the little nuances, and I would say for Americans, the nuance of flopping is annoying, especially with the NBA. It's been a big topic, by the way." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4574.67", "endTime": "4593.985", "body": "So I think, especially this season, so I think some of that energy came to it. But look, I mean, I'm a little older than you guys. Everybody who's over 50 knows this. The strides that America has made in its interest in football, aka soccer, over the last thirty years is profound. FIFA, the video game had a huge impact." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4593.985", "endTime": "4603.7803", "body": "Being able to watch the premier league in America on Saturday mornings had a huge impact. And and I'm it's a great sport and I I already am excited for the next one." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "4603.7803", "endTime": "4619.755", "body": "What about what about the intersection of technology and a game like soccer? I grew up playing soccer, refing soccer. I've refed. That was like, you know, that was I would spend my weekends when I was 12. I'd ref like 20 soccer games because they didn't cap it." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "4619.755", "endTime": "4637.2", "body": "Like there was no like, you can only work eight hours. It was like, you can ref as many games as you want because there was a shortage. So I'd ref like insane number of games in a day. And and watching the World Cup, and again, I'm a super casual viewer. Hadn't been watching soccer prior to the World Cup, but it was fun to kind of catch up on it." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "4637.3604", "endTime": "4667.7", "body": "Like, you know, there'd be an offside call and or or maybe there wasn't a call and then they'd run the tape and they'd figured out that the guy's hand, you know, elbow was slightly over the line and they'd call it and they'd take the goal back and that that to me, like part of part of the part of like what makes the sport great is there's just players that can finesse the situation and just be right on that line so a ref couldn't possibly call it. And then to have a machine being like, you know, now you can't you you could beat the ref but not the machine." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4667.7", "endTime": "4673.485", "body": "I think, look, I think of this like marketing. I'll make this valuable to the audience who does not like sports." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "4674.045", "endTime": "4675.165", "body": "This is slam ball, by the way." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4675.165", "endTime": "4676.205", "body": "Slam ball. I" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "4677.325", "endTime": "4679.725", "body": "thought those were the Chinese robots first." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "4681.085", "endTime": "4684.18", "body": "No. These are the now we're watching slam ball best hits. Look at this." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4684.18", "endTime": "4686.02", "body": "Yeah. This is Boom. Look at this. Oh." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "4686.02", "endTime": "4690.18", "body": "Alright. Alright. I can get behind this." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "4690.18", "endTime": "4691.7", "body": "It's so insane." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4691.7", "endTime": "4693.1396", "body": "It's insane." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "4693.46", "endTime": "4696.82", "body": "Is this made to look like it was shot on VHS? What's going on here?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "4696.82", "endTime": "4697.94", "body": "Is this an older video?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "4697.94", "endTime": "4699.5454", "body": "Oh, okay. So it's been around for" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 9", "startTime": "4699.5454", "endTime": "4699.865", "body": "a while." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4699.9453", "endTime": "4716.46", "body": "A little bit more Oh, god. So I'll I'll say I'll answer you like this. Can we get a little business terms, hopefully help some people's marketing? There's a lot of people watching right now that become too one dimensional math performance marketers Mhmm. And I lose." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4716.46", "endTime": "4732.155", "body": "Yeah. In fact, you boys were one of my favorite executions to watch from afar because you guys played like me. You sell more on brand than on math. Mhmm. You guys were getting brand deals that were completely inappropriate because you sold on value, not on metrics." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "4732.155", "endTime": "4732.475", "body": "Mhmm." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "4732.475", "endTime": "4733.0347", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4733.675", "endTime": "4761.6353", "body": "I think that that's how I think about technology in sports. If we get all the way to full AI robots and everything's a 100% black and white, I think the league's going to learn pretty quickly that we as humans need a little romance, need a little gray, not black and white, need a little of a balance. And so, just like I wish in political terms that everyone was purple instead of this garbage red and blue we're in. Mhmm. With the sports and technology and replay, if they can find purple, I think it's great." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4761.955", "endTime": "4764.915", "body": "When they go too red or too blue, I think it's a problem." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "4764.915", "endTime": "4786.445", "body": "Yeah. Even in formula even in formula one, there's, you know, the drivers are having issues right now because AI is deciding how much fuel and how much power to to and and they're all just getting angry because they're like, am I am I losing because I'm not as fast as my opponent or is my is the AI running on my car just not as dialed?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4786.925", "endTime": "4802.2397", "body": "It's it's all these analogies. It's like, is dinner fun without the side dish and and you know, the the amuse bouche and dessert? Like, when we get so binary, it we all want a little romance. We need a little romance." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "4802.2397", "endTime": "4829.63", "body": "Okay. One more potential league. I want you to run run this down and and let us know next time you're on What You Find. But I have a theory that when every car on the road is autonomous Yes. That like driving on the track is gonna have a resurgence in popularity because people are gonna be, you know, it's so romantic, there's so much great history around racing, every person yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "4831.3896", "endTime": "4839.55", "body": "Hit me with the counter. But but I have a theory that like things like net like there's something like a slam slam ball or whatever it is for driving." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4839.55", "endTime": "4840.4297", "body": "And that's" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "4840.4297", "endTime": "4842.9097", "body": "what's the last It's just like demolition derby." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "4842.9097", "endTime": "4848.215", "body": "No. It's something like yesterday I was driving a I was driving a dune buggy. I I was like" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "4848.375", "endTime": "4849.015", "body": "On a trampoline?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "4849.0947", "endTime": "4854.055", "body": "My buddy and we were like laughing. We were laughing. It was so much fun. We're tripping around quarters. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "4854.055", "endTime": "4855.335", "body": "It's a more dynamic." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4855.5747", "endTime": "4864.79", "body": "Calendar is I don't know if you know this but we used to ride horses before cars. Oh, yeah. And I don't know if you know, there's something called horse racing. Yeah. Is" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "4864.95", "endTime": "4865.27", "body": "Of course." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4865.35", "endTime": "4871.9897", "body": "Pretty out there. And so, the counter would be that we kind of just lived it with horses and horse racing." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "4871.99", "endTime": "4872.23", "body": "Mhmm." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4872.965", "endTime": "4886.485", "body": "But the counter to my counter is what you said, which is I actually think horse racing could be massive in this country if they put a contemporary flare on it. What UFC showed is like it was an evolution of boxing with more" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "4886.565", "endTime": "4887.1245", "body": "Oh, interesting." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "4887.525", "endTime": "4890.15", "body": "Yeah. You want like rally horse racing." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "4890.1504", "endTime": "4895.43", "body": "Sort of like UFC meets the Kentucky Derby. Like you can punch the other jockeys." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4895.43", "endTime": "4902.23", "body": "Or or what about none of that? And it's more about what about storytelling? What about" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "4902.6304", "endTime": "4905.635", "body": "Yes. A drive to survive, that type of thing." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4905.715", "endTime": "4919.1997", "body": "Like Totally. Or even when we're watching an actual horse race on a Saturday that's not the Kentucky Derby, like if you turned it on and the bottom of the screen was actually Yeah. A mic version of every jockey and you're learning. Like, we want layers." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "4919.36", "endTime": "4919.52", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4919.52", "endTime": "4926.3203", "body": "We want layers. We want stories. We want to get captivated. Everything is about that in every aspect of life." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "4926.3203", "endTime": "4931.6", "body": "With two jockeys getting up in each other's faces and thrown down after a That's" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4931.6", "endTime": "4933.335", "body": "You guys are looking so violence thing." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "4933.335", "endTime": "4936.375", "body": "So Okay. Here's a here's a hard hitting question." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4936.775", "endTime": "4937.095", "body": "Alright." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "4937.095", "endTime": "4940.9346", "body": "Do you think Big Boogie turned it down or was he capping? Oh." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "4940.935", "endTime": "4942.295", "body": "That was a good question." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "4942.775", "endTime": "4960.9", "body": "Do you think he he potentially because we were trying to do that John did the math and he said that if he was going to dental school for a decade and he had a bunch of dependents, it's possible the total package could have been in the in the $10,000,000 range. But you you cover NIL stuff a lot more. True." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4961.9453", "endTime": "4971.305", "body": "You'll appreciate this. This is one of the rare moments where I get to do this, and I always look for it. So thank you, man. I'm going to clip this. The answer is I don't know." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4971.305", "endTime": "4979.6797", "body": "I've just not paid enough attention. Mhmm. I've been in a little bit of a bubble. I'm very in I'm in a very weird place right now. I've been in a seven to ten week cocoon Oh." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4979.76", "endTime": "4986.08", "body": "Around the collectibles industry becoming the collecting becoming the next lifestyle genre." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "4986.08", "endTime": "4986.5596", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4986.88", "endTime": "4994.535", "body": "And so like, my consumption of anything happening in pop culture is at an all time low the last two months. Because I've been in the lab, like in the lab" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "4994.775", "endTime": "4995.015", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "4995.095", "endTime": "5021.5747", "body": "On this thesis that I've been on for about eight years that I think is about to completely blow the roofs off of. Like for example, let me give you a for instance, to give you even more color. Again, always try to think about how to bring value to this smart show. We've started at VaynerMedia, a collectibles marketing division. Just like there started Just like Coca Cola started a sports marketing division when the Olympics were getting important as a driver to consumption." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "5021.815", "endTime": "5059.4546", "body": "I believe in ten years, every fortune 500 consumable product, apparel, CPG, will have a collectibles marketing strategy. I don't know if you guys saw lines around the door at Popeyes chicken for the one piece collectible. People flooding to a Dodgers game to get the one piece collectible. I think that in differentiation in an AEO, GEO, you know, agentic commerce world. Differentiation around collectibles and community to get people to stop their normal pattern of what they're just reordering because they want to buy a deodorant that has a collectible of their favorite." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "5059.79", "endTime": "5065.79", "body": "I just see collectibles eating up because of what it means for community and analog and value and investment." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "5065.79", "endTime": "5078.365", "body": "Yeah. Creates like insane is going to continue to create insane abundance. Like one example is everyone everyone can have a SaaS product now. You can make it." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "5078.365", "endTime": "5081.325", "body": "Everyone will. Everyone will. What's the chain" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "5081.485", "endTime": "5083.245", "body": "Everyone who wants to. Go ahead, brother." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "5083.245", "endTime": "5104.435", "body": "What's the chain from people are playing a sport, is it watchable? Then it becomes a sport with You teams identified some of the translation effects like, you know, is anybody is anybody going to watch golf? Sure. A lot of people play it. But will people watch it?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "5104.435", "endTime": "5112.995", "body": "Obviously, the answer was yes. And that was true for football before there was a league and there was TV and the Super Bowl. Right? People were just playing it." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "5112.995", "endTime": "5119.73", "body": "By the way, just for fun because I'm just nerding out. Please. Like, everyone said there would never be a professional football league. That football was always good in college." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "5119.73", "endTime": "5120.21", "body": "Yep." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "5120.29", "endTime": "5122.29", "body": "In Notre Dame, the twenties, the thirties." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "5122.69", "endTime": "5123.0103", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "5123.0103", "endTime": "5129.5703", "body": "Like smart people that come on every this one and shit like those people back in the forties and fifties were like, there will never be professional football." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "5129.785", "endTime": "5150.63", "body": "Yes. But at the same time, there are sports that are played by lots of people. I'm thinking of like running and running is not a massive there's not the Super Bowl of running even though millions and millions of Americans go jogging, and they participate in the sport. There's something special about competitive football that makes it the Super Bowl. Right?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "5150.79", "endTime": "5154.63", "body": "Super Bowl is very special, but like, you know, the New York City Marathon" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "5154.87", "endTime": "5155.03", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "5155.11", "endTime": "5157.19", "body": "Is a very cultural event with good ratings." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "5157.19", "endTime": "5157.4297", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "5157.585", "endTime": "5164.465", "body": "You know, I think we're in the era where an entrepreneur watching this show right now is like, fuck it, I'm making a running league, and it might hit." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "5164.945", "endTime": "5191.595", "body": "So then talk to me about the translation layer from there's a sport that a lot of people are playing. If it's watchable, it becomes a big national sport with professional teams that we're all watching. At what point does it become is there a collectible culture around it? Because we're just in this early stages of like pickleball has been played by a lot of people. It's now starting to be watched by people as you mentioned." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "5191.595", "endTime": "5194.0747", "body": "When will people be collecting pickleball Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "5195.115", "endTime": "5197.6753", "body": "Production team seems really capable based on what I just saw." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "5197.6753", "endTime": "5197.995", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "5197.995", "endTime": "5206.3696", "body": "Can the production team before I leave in the next three or four minutes put up eBay, type in Anna Lee Waters." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "5206.3696", "endTime": "5206.61", "body": "Mhmm." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "5206.61", "endTime": "5214.7695", "body": "Lee is l e I g h Mhmm. Anna, a n n a space Lee Mhmm. L e I e h space waters" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "5215.01", "endTime": "5215.17", "body": "Mhmm." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "5216.3447", "endTime": "5225.625", "body": "Then enter on eBay, and then go to completed and sold items, and then sorted by most valuable. If the team can do this, what you This" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "5225.625", "endTime": "5227.8647", "body": "is a great challenge for the team. He's locked in." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "5227.8647", "endTime": "5233.47", "body": "Trying to move some Anna Lee Waters merch right now. You're and then Zero. Click purchase. Yep. And then Zero." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "5233.47", "endTime": "5235.07", "body": "Click check. I'm kidding." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "5235.23", "endTime": "5236.83", "body": "But she is the star of our team" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "5236.99", "endTime": "5237.23", "body": "Okay." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "5237.23", "endTime": "5244.8447", "body": "And we do rep for Vaynerchuk. She's my And there's she was our Joe Namath. She is our Larry Bird. Interesting. Like, look at this." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "5244.8447", "endTime": "5246.285", "body": "Here we go. Zoom Now," }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "5246.285", "endTime": "5250.445", "body": "hit on the left side. On the left side, hit completed and sold." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "5250.445", "endTime": "5255.245", "body": "Yeah. Real eBay ball knowers. I know. It's Dylan on our team. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "5255.245", "endTime": "5255.965", "body": "Big collector." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "5258.0", "endTime": "5260.88", "body": "Nope. No. No. All the way down. I'm very hardcore." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "5261.92", "endTime": "5265.92", "body": "I'm very in the dirt on collectible culture. They're completed sold." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "5268.4", "endTime": "5272.8745", "body": "Where we going? Hunting around for Anna Lee Waters. Oh," }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "5273.1147", "endTime": "5274.155", "body": "show us this. Show us this." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "5274.155", "endTime": "5275.835", "body": "Log in. Show us the password." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "5275.835", "endTime": "5281.355", "body": "No. So so Dylan on the on our team already got there. There we go. And he's seeing" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "5281.5947", "endTime": "5282.5547", "body": "Share a screenshot." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "5283.51", "endTime": "5290.7896", "body": "Anna Lee Waters rookie autograph cards going for $8,000, 5,005 thousand." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "5291.4297", "endTime": "5293.59", "body": "And I would argue up. Okay. Woah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "5293.59", "endTime": "5300.925", "body": "We've done a very good job with Anna Lee. We've made her famous. She's on Fallon. She's on Maccabee. She's the face of the sport." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "5301.165", "endTime": "5312.685", "body": "Ryan Harwood at Vaynerchuk Jonathan This We is a lot of crushed with her. She's the best player in the world. Pickleball is the only sport where a female can be the best. She's the best player in the sport, including the men. Wow." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "5313.3403", "endTime": "5321.18", "body": "Because the you know, that's what's interesting about pickleball. 80 year old grandmas are whipping 19 year old grandsons in pickleball. It's a different kind of sport." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "5321.18", "endTime": "5328.54", "body": "Anyway is another sport where women outperform men. Certain equestrian Drissox. In the Olympics. Drissox." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "5328.995", "endTime": "5353.16", "body": "I'm sure there's others, but this is one that You people could see eight to 5,000, and I will tell you, 99% of the audience, and everyone on Twitter right now, hit me up, Gary V E E and answer this. Mhmm. 99% of the audience right now has never heard of her in their lives. So it doesn't take a lot to get to collectible. These collectibles are niche, are tribals." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "5353.16", "endTime": "5367.8647", "body": "Mhmm. Right? Look what happened with Comic Con. 50 guys in a weird hotel in San Diego, right, in 1976 to now this last weekend, millions of people go into San Diego and it's a cultural phenomenon. Crazy." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "5367.945", "endTime": "5376.13", "body": "So collectibles is when it flips over to pop culture. Mhmm. I would argue that athletes that are the most valuable are more pop culture" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "5376.37", "endTime": "5376.69", "body": "Mhmm." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "5376.69", "endTime": "5392.465", "body": "Than people realize. They're more superheroes than people realize. And when you're building a league, whether it's Conor McGregor and Ronda Rousey, whether it's Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Steph Curry today. Like, you need a superhero. Joe Namath was the superhero for the NFL early on." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "5392.465", "endTime": "5399.265", "body": "He became one of the most famous people in the world. Jets had a huge upset in Super Bowl three, and football was on its way." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "5399.265", "endTime": "5399.505", "body": "Mhmm." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "5401.82", "endTime": "5407.74", "body": "Business collectibles. Where do you think it's going? We saw Jensen" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "5407.74", "endTime": "5408.3", "body": "Jensen Jack Jack." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "5408.3", "endTime": "5413.58", "body": "Go for about 1,000,000. That was for charity for a friend Justin Mares. Yeah. His grants that he does." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "5413.58", "endTime": "5446.945", "body": "I believe collectibles I believe collectibles have eaten up the pop culture energy of what young 20 year olds would do with public stocks. So instead of buying 50 shares of Nike, like my generation did, they're going to go buy a collectible. I think it's completely eaten up the oxygen of contemporary art. So you guys, especially after your nice transaction, are, you know, continue to hang around people of wealth at a young age. Your contemporaries, people in their thirties, forties, fifties, only twenty five years ago, thirty years ago, are buying the hottest contemporary artists to put the art in the house." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "5447.105", "endTime": "5476.305", "body": "Much of that money is now going into $100,000 million dollar collectibles. Obviously, Michael Rubin sitting on the top of the tops empire with all his cultural relevance has brought an incredible amount of pop culture energy to it. And kids, people forget, trading cards are a hundred years of collectability now. This has been a very long term asset class, but the numbers are just out of control. You see Oleary wearing this, you know." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "5477.0254", "endTime": "5497.97", "body": "Like, you know this, even for you guys that are young, definitely people my generation, people that collected cards as teenagers in the eighties and nineties were nerdy. People collecting cards are now cool. Yeah. And once that happens, it gets really different really fast, and we're on that other side. And so you'll see collect, you know, watches What's on your shirt?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "5497.97", "endTime": "5498.0503", "body": "I" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "5498.785", "endTime": "5499.345", "body": "want to know what's" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "5499.345", "endTime": "5501.985", "body": "on your I wasn't even I was Right. There you go." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "5501.985", "endTime": "5502.385", "body": "Look at Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "5502.465", "endTime": "5503.025", "body": "How long we're" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "5503.505", "endTime": "5505.3447", "body": "Are you are you going to the national?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "5505.745", "endTime": "5510.625", "body": "Of course. Leaving tomorrow. Break it down. For me, for I'm late. Let me just make this so I can clip it in nine years." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "5510.76", "endTime": "5521.0", "body": "I am building the next Disney Pokemon Marble all in everyone's faces. It's called Be Friends. Mhmm. And because I have 13 different other jobs, no one sees it, and I don't speak about it that often. Mhmm." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "5521.1597", "endTime": "5521.8", "body": "But you're cooking." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "5521.8", "endTime": "5528.3447", "body": "Building an IT business during this AI era is going to end up being one of my savviest moves." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "5528.985", "endTime": "5534.3447", "body": "Yeah. And the generational run is just beginning. I love it. Clip that. Clip that in a decade." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "5534.3447", "endTime": "5534.8247", "body": "Clip that" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "5534.8247", "endTime": "5541.05", "body": "in five decades. I mean, I can 99, 100." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "5541.0503", "endTime": "5542.09", "body": "It can happen." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "5542.5703", "endTime": "5544.41", "body": "Thanks so much, Sean. Great to great to catch up." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "5544.41", "endTime": "5545.37", "body": "Always great man." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "5545.37", "endTime": "5546.81", "body": "Always. Let me know if I can help you." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 3", "startTime": "5546.81", "endTime": "5547.1304", "body": "We'll talk soon." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "5547.1304", "endTime": "5548.0103", "body": "Good luck with The National." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "5548.0103", "endTime": "5559.505", "body": "Goodbye. Cheers. Let me tell you about Console. Console built AI agents that automate 70% IT, HR and finance support giving employees instant resolution for access requests and password resets." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "5559.5054", "endTime": "5566.0596", "body": "Up next, Jonathan Jacobi. Jacobi? Jacobi coming in hot to the UltraDome." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "5566.0596", "endTime": "5566.9395", "body": "How you doing?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 8", "startTime": "5567.42", "endTime": "5569.3394", "body": "Hey, guys. Thank you for having me. Great" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "5569.9", "endTime": "5575.98", "body": "to have you. Great to have you. Let's get right into the gong worthy moment of this segment." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "5575.98", "endTime": "5577.5796", "body": "Tell us about the news." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 8", "startTime": "5578.895", "endTime": "5585.935", "body": "Yes. So today we launched the name out of Stealth. Raising $71,000,000 seed round It and announcing" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "5590.1753", "endTime": "5598.34", "body": "had been a while since I saw a 70 plus million dollar seed round and I Ribbit feel more at ease capital. Having having" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "5598.58", "endTime": "5606.58", "body": "you so much. What yeah. Yeah. What what does the progress need to look like these days? How how mature is the product?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "5607.495", "endTime": "5611.815", "body": "How built out is the team to jump straight to that size of seed round?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 8", "startTime": "5612.615", "endTime": "5621.5195", "body": "Yeah. So we we're a team of 26 people. Okay. So actually grown pretty quickly. And today, we also launched something pretty unique." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 8", "startTime": "5621.6", "endTime": "5643.245", "body": "We launched, like, the first AI robotic experience online so people can just browse to a website to robots that online and interact with real AI powered robots Okay. By our models and our interfaces. So this is kind of a double milestone for us, both, you know, emerging out of stealth and kind of putting our technology out there at the same time." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "5643.565", "endTime": "5667.645", "body": "Very cool. I saw the painter, which is a robot that you can control and, you know, paint in the real world, I was a little bit frustrated because I had I'd I'd written been writing down notes and talking with a few people about somebody should set up a robotic arm with that lets you paint on real canvases Mhmm. And then send it like send it to yourself. But you're effectively doing that. So you beat me to the punch." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "5667.805", "endTime": "5690.7803", "body": "So where where does the AI start? Where does the teleoperation end? Because I believe there's been demos of, you know, deterministic robot or like remote control, even like a remote controlled camera that you can pan tilt and zoom. That's existed for a long time. Where does the AI actually come into the process?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 8", "startTime": "5692.045", "endTime": "5703.965", "body": "Yeah. So basically, we have robots. You can talk to them. So basically, the idea is we put out different interfaces. One, in some of the interface, can as you can see here, you can talk to the robot and ask it things, the robot just responds to you." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 8", "startTime": "5705.1", "endTime": "5743.9", "body": "We're gonna also throughout the week, we're gonna launch more and more different experiences, and we're gonna showcase different ways to interact with robots. So our company is a research heavy research lab, research heavy company that focuses on robotic foundation models, but we also think deeply and care deeply about the experience. We think novel user interfaces are going to be a huge enabler for robotics. So we kind of wanted to put out something that is very wide to learn how people want to interact with robots and take that learning and put it back to the research. So in those experiments you're saying, you're saying one robot that you can fight with, like a robotic sword fight." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 8", "startTime": "5744.06", "endTime": "5759.195", "body": "So here it is. So one of them is controlled manually, like a teleoperation, and this like, which is the user. And there is a robot that is an AI robot that responds to the users who actually fight. So this is one way of interaction. Another one is you type to the robot something and you see what what it does." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 8", "startTime": "5759.195", "endTime": "5775.37", "body": "So the painter, you give it an association. It paints it plays like a Pictionary with you. And then after the experience, you can, like, ask it to do some pantomimes. You can imagine the the brush is anything, and it can be a wand. It can be, like, leaning the the like, as a broomstick, getting the floor." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 8", "startTime": "5775.4253", "endTime": "5784.145", "body": "This So is where the AI comes in. This is where our models, our foundation models comes in comes into play. And we wanted to showcase both interfaces and the models." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "5784.9453", "endTime": "5821.9004", "body": "Very good. What's your opinion on robotics sort of or robotic control coming for free in generalized LLM development? I saw some demos of I think it was Opus V controlling a robotic arm. It seems like a lot of these models, they don't always need to be trained for something specific and then you wind up just getting some particular functionality for free or it's like a quick RL step on top of what the what the Frontier Labs are already doing. Is that relevant to your roadmap?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "5821.9004", "endTime": "5831.3403", "body": "Or do you think there's a convergence? Or do you think you'll go off and and carve out a specific niche in robotics? I mean, obviously, it's a huge category. But how does that all fit together?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 8", "startTime": "5832.575", "endTime": "5834.575", "body": "It is a huge category. That's true." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "5834.575", "endTime": "5835.135", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 8", "startTime": "5836.6553", "endTime": "5843.615", "body": "So I I've seen the demo you're talking about, I think, because it was Anthropic. Yeah. So we've seen those demos. Actually, we have from GPT 3.5. And Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 8", "startTime": "5843.615", "endTime": "5852.75", "body": "Before that, we've had robots controlled by LLMs. I think the problem that we're seeing, you know, lab such as ourselves trying to tackle is the fact that this doesn't really either generalize very well" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 11", "startTime": "5852.91", "endTime": "5853.31", "body": "Mhmm." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 8", "startTime": "5853.31", "endTime": "5858.1104", "body": "Or doesn't, you know, fit in with the requirements of, like, you know, dexterity or doesn't" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "5858.6704", "endTime": "5861.345", "body": "It feels like cool demo, but not necessarily commercially" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "5861.585", "endTime": "5879.3896", "body": "Yeah. It also might just be like it gets it's impressive to be like, wow, language model controlled arm. But if it's like every time it moved it was $20 in tokens and it was 45% accurate and if you just like did an actual model for the robot, it's like It's true. 2¢ and perfect." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 8", "startTime": "5879.55", "endTime": "5890.735", "body": "That would Exactly. Exactly. And and it's kind of one example one of my friend told told me was was assume you could have had an LLM, like, do an ASCII art and, like, paint as if it's ASCII art, but you we still have image models." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "5890.735", "endTime": "5890.975", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 8", "startTime": "5890.975", "endTime": "5893.455", "body": "Totally. Nature the the, like, the natural language of" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "5893.535", "endTime": "5893.6953", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 8", "startTime": "5893.775", "endTime": "5914.0303", "body": "Of the way the LLMs work, and that's why it's it's a bit off. But but I do think that I think audition models for robotics is such as what we're building and what, you know, some other other labs are doing as well. I think I think it's going to take a huge part of of how robotics is gonna evolve. And we're also very lucky to to be in this, you know, time of of great tailwind. Right?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 8", "startTime": "5914.0303", "endTime": "5926.465", "body": "So there's a great tailwind of research. So we most of the team is doing research, and we have a lot of table from, you know, LLM's research. We take inspiration from that or from video models or from world models, and that's pretty that's pretty that's pretty unique." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "5928.3604", "endTime": "5930.3604", "body": "Time to time to revenue." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "5930.3604", "endTime": "5930.52", "body": "Mhmm." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "5930.52", "endTime": "5940.12", "body": "How you thinking about, like, first commercial application? Sounds like well, you're in the age of research, but when when do you see opportunity to start commercializing and kind of where?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 8", "startTime": "5941.105", "endTime": "5986.8896", "body": "Yeah. So we have partners we're working on working with right now across different kind of segments. So from logistics to entertainment to health as well, some cool things on that that we might talk about on those three categories, and there's more. What we're seeing is we want to be able to get as much value to users and customers as fast as possible and make sure that when we are scaling it up, it's scaled up in the right kind of directionally right approach because you don't want to be way off and then be dependent on kind of kind of being in a big tech debt, I would say, and product debt. But but I think I think we're at the point where we're also seeing we're start we're seeing value." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 8", "startTime": "5986.8896", "endTime": "5995.4497", "body": "We're seeing, you know, value from from from from partners and and and it's actually a kind of showing a sign that we didn't expect to to to occur that that fast." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "5995.915", "endTime": "6021.97", "body": "How do you think about vertical integration? It feels like there's robotics companies that are saying we're gonna build the robot and the model. There's others that are like, we're gonna build a modular robot and the model. There's other companies that are saying, we'll just build the model and the robot builders will show up. I haven't seen actually that many new startups that are like, we're just building a dumb robotic arm that you can load whatever model you want on." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "6021.97", "endTime": "6032.175", "body": "We want nothing to do with the with the actual AI inside. We're just doing manufacturing. Maybe that's an opportunity. But where where do you see your scope growing or staying focused?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 8", "startTime": "6033.615", "endTime": "6045.1504", "body": "I think it's a great question because it really is a divergent kind of topic. A opinions. Lot Yeah. We see ourselves as so we're software, software, like, first company. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 8", "startTime": "6045.1504", "endTime": "6060.975", "body": "Right? So we think we work with our products, our kind of software stack from the models to the interfaces to to talk to them. We work very hard on making it generalized across embodiment. So Mhmm. We want to get to a point that even a new manufacturer comes out and says, alright." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 8", "startTime": "6060.975", "endTime": "6084.7554", "body": "Here's a new robot. I would want I would want to be able to, within a week, have everything work on that robot as if it I had that robot for months. So we're building a lot of infrastructure to be able to cut like, this is part of our research, like, to be able to calibrate all our technology across robots easily. We think and we see a lot of vendors, and we think doesn't have it doesn't necessarily have to be coupled. And we see a lot of, you know, great companies Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 8", "startTime": "6084.7554", "endTime": "6096.2397", "body": "Around the world that that sell the the hardware. So if we could be a good provider for the brain and for the interface of the brain, we think it's a it's a very viable kind of product offering. And I think it makes sense as well." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "6096.2397", "endTime": "6106.32", "body": "Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. I mean, yeah, obviously, there are a ton of robotic production or supplier companies. There aren't enough startups in that world, I feel like." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "6106.32", "endTime": "6114.075", "body": "I feel like we need we we we need like I'm a direct competitor to KUKA or something to and I'll make a big robotic arm and I'll make it cheaper or whatever. I'm sure there are that there were probably" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "6114.2354", "endTime": "6116.395", "body": "before you go, what were you doing before this?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 8", "startTime": "6118.3154", "endTime": "6126.2495", "body": "So I I worked I worked at a company I worked at a company acquired by Wizz, and then got acquired by Google. Oh, cool. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "6126.9697", "endTime": "6127.29", "body": "That's awesome." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 8", "startTime": "6127.29", "endTime": "6144.5747", "body": "And actually, me and Asaf, the CEO of Wizz, we we go way back. When I was when I was 17, he he was running Microsoft in Israel, and he brought me to join Microsoft. Cool. And so we have a long history. So I joined Wizz, and and, yeah, think I think did the error right now." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "6144.5747", "endTime": "6146.54", "body": "Long story short generational generational run. Run." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "6147.9805", "endTime": "6154.3003", "body": "Amazing. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show, breaking it down. Congratulations on coming out of Stealth. Great demo." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 8", "startTime": "6154.3003", "endTime": "6154.8604", "body": "Thank you." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "6154.8604", "endTime": "6155.66", "body": "Mads is super" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "6155.74", "endTime": "6158.4604", "body": "way to launch. Huge. And we'll we'll talk to you soon, hopefully." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "6158.4604", "endTime": "6164.8647", "body": "I'm sure we will. Thank you very much. Goodbye. Let me tell you about MongoDB. What's the only thing faster than the AI market?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "6164.8647", "endTime": "6184.1", "body": "Your business on MongoDB. Don't just build AI, own the data platform that powers it. Up next, we have Dean Meyer from Sequoia Capital here to talk about America's open model paradox. I love a good paradox. Also, fun fact, I heard somebody debunking Jevan's paradox." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "6184.1", "endTime": "6192.245", "body": "It's not a paradox. It's just an just an effect. It's just an economic effect. Is it a real paradox? Breakdown America's open model paradox." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "6192.245", "endTime": "6193.765", "body": "Feel free to give a little bit of an intro" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 11", "startTime": "6193.925", "endTime": "6194.645", "body": "What's up, guys?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "6194.645", "endTime": "6195.525", "body": "But how you doing?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "6195.525", "endTime": "6196.325", "body": "What's up?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 11", "startTime": "6196.325", "endTime": "6198.085", "body": "I'm good. Can you can you guys hear me?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "6198.085", "endTime": "6199.285", "body": "Oh, yeah. We're we can hear you I" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "6199.285", "endTime": "6200.005", "body": "can hear you." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 11", "startTime": "6201.34", "endTime": "6202.3", "body": "Let's go." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "6202.3", "endTime": "6203.26", "body": "We can hear you." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 11", "startTime": "6203.9", "endTime": "6214.86", "body": "What's up, guys? Great great to be on the show. Thanks for having me. It's been fun. Look, you know, my myself and and and my partner Constantine and Sequoia, you know, we've been riffing on Sovereign AI for a while." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "6214.86", "endTime": "6215.26", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 11", "startTime": "6215.26", "endTime": "6255.1646", "body": "And I think kind of we wrote this post that went a little a little viral and kind of the the core core concept was, you know, US is creating this frontier capability Yep. That kinda gets leaked into Chinese and white models. Mhmm. And then you have the entirety of the American kind of builder ecosystem, which is Neolabs, you know, companies that are somewhat dependent on these Chinese models. And so, you know, today there's like, you you know, if you're an American lab and you can legally learn from a Chinese model, you can't learn from a kind of frontier US model, which is what they're doing, Then the question is how do we build kind of the, you know, the legal path almost for this direct route as opposed to just having this dependence on Chinese subway models." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 11", "startTime": "6255.485", "endTime": "6262.92", "body": "And so we kind of address that and and share a few ideas which I'm happy to talk about. But that's kind of like the overall the overall thing." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "6263.0", "endTime": "6269.56", "body": "Yeah. I mean there's so much there's so much news about this particular topic. The essay was written at the perfect time." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 11", "startTime": "6270.585", "endTime": "6275.625", "body": "Just before Kimikaze three, man. It was We good had no intel. We had no intel." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "6275.945", "endTime": "6325.3", "body": "I mean were you a believer in just the fact that the open source market generally lags the frontier by six months and that's not changing? Because there was this graph that was going around for a while that was showing that maybe the Closed Source was scaling on a slightly steeper curve than Open Source and this was driving sort of about a couple months ago when we were in between open source releases Yes. People were starting to say, oh, maybe they will plateau because the training cost will be so high that you'll have sort of like what happened at Meta. That will just happen in China because China will just say, yeah, like if we're going to spend a billion dollars on this training run, it's not worth it to open source it. But it feels like they found an economic model that makes sense." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "6325.3", "endTime": "6342.515", "body": "Kimi's license is out today and they're going to take a portion of revenue if you're really selling a lot of Kimi tokens. And so Mhmm. Were were you were you was this built on an idea that that the open source and closed source frontiers would always be on the basically the same track?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 11", "startTime": "6343.96", "endTime": "6354.04", "body": "Yeah. Well, I I I think I think, look, that that is that is the question. Yeah. Yeah. And so, look, our view is I I mean, first of all, like, the the the gap is closed a lot." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 11", "startTime": "6354.04", "endTime": "6372.1997", "body": "And so kind of the key conversation online over the past week was, you know, is distillation the reason for this? Or is there some other kind of mysterious reason? And the truth is, like, you know, there are two camps, like everything. You know, people are are kind of extremists in in you know, when when there's conversation. Everyone there's a group that are like, hey." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 11", "startTime": "6372.1997", "endTime": "6382.76", "body": "Distillation does nothing, and there's a group that's like, distillation everything. Mhmm. The truth is from the conversations we've had, it's somewhere in the middle. Right? Like, whether it's 20%, thirty, forty, it doesn't really matter as much." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 11", "startTime": "6382.76", "endTime": "6409.27", "body": "Mhmm. It is meaningful that we know. We know from the labs, you know, there's tens of millions of of of queries through these, like, large scale proxy distillation accounts. We also know on the other hand, if you speak to anyone who's, like, leading in synthetic data gen on pre or post training at the labs, like, they will tell you, even if you do, like, hardcore KYC and then, like, let's say you get access to these kind of, like, you know, you don't have all the traces, you don't have Yeah. Kind of, you know, like, the chain of thought." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 11", "startTime": "6409.27", "endTime": "6416.605", "body": "There's a lot of RL that happens. Right? And you just get the output. Like, let's assume you just get an output from a query or a prompt. It is still extremely valuable." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 11", "startTime": "6416.605", "endTime": "6448.565", "body": "Like, that is 100% true. And so we know distillation is real. And then the question becomes, well, if distillation's real, you know, how do we address the asymmetry that exists between, you know if you're a Western, you know, US company or, you know, just a Western company, you're not going to, like, go and set up, you know, 35,000 proxy accounts with, like, different IPs around the world and go into philanthropic for the fear of being sued and being called out and Yep. And even being cut ax you know, shutting off access. And so there is this structural asymmetry, and and and I think it's something we have to think about." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 11", "startTime": "6448.565", "endTime": "6451.3647", "body": "So you have to create the meme of token Yeah. Go ahead." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "6451.605", "endTime": "6452.325", "body": "You have to create the meme" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "6452.325", "endTime": "6453.3647", "body": "of token max that the" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "6453.3647", "endTime": "6454.085", "body": "token leader would" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "6454.085", "endTime": "6489.4897", "body": "have Maybe. Do you think that Anthropic or anyone else, let's just say a a closed source frontier lab in America, if they believe that they've been distilled by an international company, should they just sue? Even if there's no even if there's no way that on any reasonable time scale that they're going to win a settlement or block anything, would it just throw down the gauntlet to say we're willing to put this into the the the official record under threat of perjury that we believe this is what happened and there's like a signed affidavit of their belief that there is wrongdoing?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 11", "startTime": "6490.53", "endTime": "6503.735", "body": "I mean, I I think they they probably would and nothing would happen. Like I, you know Yeah. Think not nothing would happen and so anyway, like, you know, US companies are are kind of deterred from doing this. I don't think it would change too much, unfortunately." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "6505.495", "endTime": "6524.0103", "body": "It would be very symbolic. I I I think it would be very I agree with you. Think I don't think anything would change from the actual lawsuit. It would cost some amount of money to file this lawsuit. But at least it would it would have they would have something to point to of like, hey look, we tried to go through the traditional path and you were able to follow along." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "6524.0103", "endTime": "6541.1553", "body": "You were able to look at our evidence which was entered into the public record and oh, yeah, the the CEO of the lab that we're accusing of distilling us didn't show up to court or whatever. You know, whatever the process is, the process can Yes. Can begin. May maybe this is like a day away. Maybe this is like the lawsuit drops tomorrow." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "6541.1553", "endTime": "6541.395", "body": "Who knows?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "6541.64", "endTime": "6542.12", "body": "But What about" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "6542.36", "endTime": "6553.8003", "body": "Yeah. It seems like that's the next logical step because right now there's lot of Yes. There's a lot of there's a lot of pushback against like, hey, why do you have a problem with this? And they say, oh, maybe it's distilled. Well, you know, that's the next that's the next step." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "6553.8003", "endTime": "6554.2", "body": "Maybe. I don't" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 11", "startTime": "6554.2", "endTime": "6554.44", "body": "know." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "6554.44", "endTime": "6568.335", "body": "Yes. So so Kimmy came out with their their license this morning Mhmm. And Mhmm. They they in the license, it says if if you're just running it hosting this yourself for your own use cases, that's fine. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "6568.335", "endTime": "6607.2803", "body": "It's free. But if you're effectively reselling it as a neo cloud, you have to give us a revenue share. I can't imagine that Washington is gonna tolerate that just just the idea the idea that like a bunch of US neo clouds are then sending billions of dollars back to to China to support one of their labs. I just to me, that feels like it could provoke a response that felt like it was maybe coming last week when different people in the admin were saying, hey, we're we're we believe distillation is happening here. We're we're we're pro open source, but we're against how they were positioning it IP theft." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "6607.2803", "endTime": "6624.675", "body": "On the flip side Mhmm. I was very quickly able to find a Bottega Veneta dupe that comes from China and is effectively distilled on that brand and the government isn't stepping in about that, you know. And that money is flowing straight to it through Amazon and through other platforms, Xian and T and" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 11", "startTime": "6624.675", "endTime": "6625.155", "body": "T. Just" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "6625.395", "endTime": "6628.675", "body": "Yeah. But it's not it doesn't have any geopolitical significance." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "6629.23", "endTime": "6631.15", "body": "You're not you wouldn't go to war for" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "6631.23", "endTime": "6633.4697", "body": "a caring company." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "6633.71", "endTime": "6635.47", "body": "Yeah. No. That's true. That's true. Anyway, sorry." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "6635.47", "endTime": "6635.79", "body": "I was" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 11", "startTime": "6636.11", "endTime": "6640.0303", "body": "No. I think look. I think look. I I was surprised to read that. Look." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 11", "startTime": "6640.0303", "endTime": "6668.7603", "body": "The truth is, like, I think it's not dissimilar from the database market where, like, you know, you had Redis, like, early on. There were a range of these companies released really cool open source, and, like, they just got the hyperscalers copied them effectively, and, like, that was the end. I just you know, it's impossible to enforce. I I I like, I don't think that will work for for the Chinese. But look, the broader question here is, like, there are two major risks with, like, depending on a Chinese US eco you know, a Chinese open source ecosystem." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 11", "startTime": "6669.095", "endTime": "6701.055", "body": "The first one is the dependency risk. Like, the framing we have is, you know, in some sense, you know, at Sequoia, we always say, we're only as good as our next investment, which we actually believe. And I think in some sense, the analogy is, like, you're only as good as your next model. And so as long as you're dependent on the Chinese to give you the next, like, hit of, you know, of of of the thing, you're you're kind of you're kind of in a in a bit of a in a, you know, in a bit of a weird position where you have this dependency. And then the other thing that I don't think people are kind of well calibrated on is just the risk of backdoors." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 11", "startTime": "6701.1353", "endTime": "6706.2554", "body": "And I'm not saying like, just to be clear, like, I'm not saying that all Chinese open weight labs are backdoring models." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "6706.2554", "endTime": "6706.495", "body": "Mhmm." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 11", "startTime": "6706.495", "endTime": "6739.55", "body": "But the truth is we know for sure, and there's like a lot of research on this, both from the labs and outside the labs in academia. It is like an NP hard problem to know if there is a backdoor in a model, and that we know. So it's impossible to verify. And on top of that, there's like a ton of crazy evidence that shows you can you can like time pull a model, which basically, you know, one way of saying is like a model, you could do all the evals you want, and suddenly, like, you know, it it gets a certain input, and the model literally changes behavior. It will start like exfiltrating data and doing some crazy stuff." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 11", "startTime": "6739.55", "endTime": "6761.795", "body": "And, like, this this stuff's real. Like, this is not science fiction. We know and so kind of the analogy I would give you guys is, I think the state of AI security today is, like, very similar to that of, you know, early days of the Internet when like, you know, in in in 2001, like, WiFi was like, you know, WiFi encryption was effectively broken, like publicly broken. Yeah. And still, like, no one did anything." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 11", "startTime": "6761.955", "endTime": "6776.4604", "body": "And I don't even think we're at that moment yet. Yeah. And it's gonna it's like it's gonna get really bad if we, like, one, don't better understand how to secure these things. And two, like, build our own kind of independent ecosystem. And so, yeah, those would be like some some thoughts as well." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "6778.165", "endTime": "6787.6045", "body": "There's so much more we could go into here. We got to have you back on the show and talk more because like there's Cool. There's so much going on. But thank you for writing the essay. We'll let the audience go and read the full piece." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "6787.8447", "endTime": "6789.685", "body": "Yeah. Great to have you on and come back soon." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "6789.685", "endTime": "6808.495", "body": "I'm looking forward to the next one because it feels like the the conversation has started to advance so many different directions. Didn't even get into the the the the politics of anyone having a cyber weapon in their pocket. There's all these different scenarios to play out beyond what you just mentioned which are a bunch of other considerations. It's a fun one." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 11", "startTime": "6808.495", "endTime": "6812.335", "body": "We'd love to talk Thank to you so much. Yeah. Yeah. This was awesome to" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "6812.335", "endTime": "6812.6553", "body": "have you on." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "6812.6553", "endTime": "6813.1353", "body": "We'll rest" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 11", "startTime": "6813.1353", "endTime": "6813.615", "body": "here today." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "6813.615", "endTime": "6814.495", "body": "Talk to you later." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "6814.495", "endTime": "6828.27", "body": "Bye. Let me tell you about Public. Investing for those tickets seriously. They got stocks, options, bonds, crypto, treasuries, and more with great customer service. Our next guest is Brent Franson from Death Clock." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "6828.27", "endTime": "6832.4746", "body": "He's the founder and CEO. Welcome to the show. Franson, how are you doing?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 9", "startTime": "6832.795", "endTime": "6834.395", "body": "I'm well. Thanks for having me." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "6834.395", "endTime": "6838.635", "body": "Please introduce yourself and the company. Tell us a little bit about DeathClock." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 9", "startTime": "6839.195", "endTime": "6860.5947", "body": "Yeah. So we trained an AI on 1,200 longevity studies to predict how long you're going to live originally, and then the model was predicting the exact day you would die. And so we started sharing that, and people like you know, people either love it or hate it. They want to see the exact day they'll die. But more importantly, the model builds a plan, you know, to live longer." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 9", "startTime": "6860.5947", "endTime": "6862.8345", "body": "Not just about when you're going to die." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "6862.995", "endTime": "6867.795", "body": "Is this a nod to metalocalypse from Adult Swim?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 9", "startTime": "6868.93", "endTime": "6875.65", "body": "No. It's not. Although that's one of the most the most common questions the most common responses on social about metalocalypse" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "6875.81", "endTime": "6876.05", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 9", "startTime": "6876.13", "endTime": "6879.89", "body": "And then just about the like religious, you know, only God Yeah. Can tell you when you're going to" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "6881.0103", "endTime": "6890.545", "body": "Is this rage bait? Are you intentionally framing this? Because you could have called it like like the longevity optimizer. But death clock I" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "6890.545", "endTime": "6892.3047", "body": "think they would have gotten nearly as many users." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "6892.3047", "endTime": "6915.3145", "body": "I agree. But what are what are your opinions about? I mean I've literally like lived this as well. So I'm not I'm not actually you know saying that this is bad or anything but I'm just wondering about how conscious the decision is to to use a word like death because liquid death, same thing, where it's this aggressive name, it draws an attention. What are your thoughts on on that as like an attention mechanism?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 9", "startTime": "6916.355", "endTime": "6930.62", "body": "Yeah. I mean, I think there's a stoic component to it. And so I do think that there is some, I don't know, some good reason to be honest with ourselves about the fact that we're gonna die. Sure. But the real answer is, I don't know, distribution really matters." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 9", "startTime": "6930.62", "endTime": "6944.715", "body": "It's hard to make noise. And so we wanted to be really provocative. So our goal is very much, you know, I don't know, the Howard Stern ilk of, look, love us or hate us, just don't be apathetic about what we're doing." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "6944.715", "endTime": "6948.0747", "body": "No. No. I think it's a good strategy for the modern era." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "6948.0747", "endTime": "6956.3896", "body": "Talk about the new launch. You launched free nationwide blood testing. Sounds good. Too good to be true. What's the catch?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 9", "startTime": "6956.3896", "endTime": "6970.235", "body": "Yeah, it's not. Know, people are really concerned about their data and I get it. We don't do anything with the data. We don't share or sell the data. But I think what's happened is we have a lot of these blood testing companies that do all this kitchen sink blood testing and they charge you a lot of money." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 9", "startTime": "6970.235", "endTime": "6994.025", "body": "And the reality is blood testing's commoditized. LabCorp and Quest have existed for a long time. These tests are not that expensive. And the set of tests that you really need to understand heart health, metabolic health, inflammation, those are pretty inexpensive tests. And so from an acquisition perspective for us, it made sense to say, look, let's give away a test." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 9", "startTime": "6994.025", "endTime": "7011.64", "body": "You can get a sense of the platform and how good the plan that it generates for you is. And then we think you'll do more testing and you'll go deeper and you'll convert to premium, but, you know, giving away a basic test, it's in the tens of dollars. This stuff is not as Okay. Expensive as people" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "7012.44", "endTime": "7016.44", "body": "And and how many biomarkers is does the free test give you?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 9", "startTime": "7017.375", "endTime": "7046.94", "body": "The free test gives you about 50, but this whole number of biomarkers thing, it's the wrong way to think about this kind of testing. And so I think we've gotten into this place where we think, okay, you know, a 150 biomarkers is better than 50 biomarkers. That's not necessarily true. I mean, you run these blood tests, they've got about a ninety five percent accuracy rate. So when you start just testing for everything, even asymptomatically, you're cranking up the odds of a false positive that you've got to go chase down with your doc." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 9", "startTime": "7047.035", "endTime": "7063.08", "body": "Then you're in some diagnostic process that actually carries some risk. Yeah. And so it's 50. You can do all of that testing with us, but it's more about getting the right tests. I mean, really understanding the right things about your heart health, your metabolic health, making sure you're doing the right cancer Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "7063.08", "endTime": "7072.36", "body": "There's probably So I wouldn't get you caught up. There's like a power law in efficacy of biomarkers and there's also probably a lot of correlation between some of those longer tail biomarkers." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "7073.08", "endTime": "7094.76", "body": "Okay. So someone comes in, technically you're you're having to fork over tens of dollars to get them a free test and you're betting that some meaningful percentage of them will be like, this service is cool. I'll stick around and access other services. So it sounds like close as close as possible to a free lunch, which which I like." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 9", "startTime": "7095.8", "endTime": "7101.0", "body": "Yeah. I mean, it really is free. There's no yeah. There's no gotcha in it. I mean, you do have to say, no." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 9", "startTime": "7101.0", "endTime": "7126.77", "body": "I don't wanna I don't wanna take an Alzheimer, you know, I don't want to look for the Alzheimer's gene. I don't want to do more advanced cardiac testing. All of those things require you to upgrade. But I think the future is one in which we're kind of acting as our own personal doctors. We've got an AI that's got all of our health data, and then we order the tests very surgically that we need at the times that we need them." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 9", "startTime": "7126.77", "endTime": "7143.6396", "body": "We're not just kitchen sink doing 15 vials, you know, every six every six months. Like, I should go look at my liver health because of a medication I'm taking. And you shouldn't need a doctor to do all of that. And so that's what we're trying to make available mass market. We're not gonna be the high end solution." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "7143.6396", "endTime": "7147.4795", "body": "What legally can only a doctor do these days?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 9", "startTime": "7149.0796", "endTime": "7154.44", "body": "Well, medications, cancer screens, but I mean, testing. So there is a" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "7154.44", "endTime": "7168.2646", "body": "Blood doctor testing, but I mean, obviously blood testing happens with labs, so those are licensed. But then in terms of the interpretation of the tests, that can sort of be democratized with AI and individual like self serve products?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 9", "startTime": "7169.3047", "endTime": "7185.4497", "body": "Yeah. Mean, we have to disclaim that we're not a doctor and you need to speak to your doctor about any of these results. But there are the barriers are coming down in lab testing. Every lab order that goes through DeathClock, it has a doctor's name on it." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "7185.6553", "endTime": "7186.455", "body": "It goes through an" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 9", "startTime": "7186.455", "endTime": "7196.455", "body": "approval process, but it's very fast and you don't need to speak directly to the doctor because there's really no risk for most of these tests." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "7196.455", "endTime": "7197.6553", "body": "What were you doing before this?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 9", "startTime": "7199.15", "endTime": "7210.4297", "body": "I was the CEO of a company called Euclid Analytics, a benchmark and NEA backed business. Was acquired by WeWork about six months before WeWork imploded. It was a crazy, crazy ride." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "7210.59", "endTime": "7219.175", "body": "It's wild. Well I'm so curious what Adam Neumann had in store. Wii Health, maybe?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 9", "startTime": "7219.415", "endTime": "7225.335", "body": "Oh, yeah. I know. He was a he was a he was a crazy charismatic guy. He was one of those guys He's" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "7225.335", "endTime": "7226.1353", "body": "still alive, by the way." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 9", "startTime": "7226.6597", "endTime": "7228.34", "body": "Yeah. Well, yes. He's still in." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "7228.34", "endTime": "7229.6997", "body": "Like he's dead." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 9", "startTime": "7230.42", "endTime": "7241.46", "body": "You would go sit and he would talk for two hours in these all hands Wow. And it would feel like it was fifteen minutes. But the day he showed up to an all hands in a suit, we all looked around and we're like, oh, we're screwed." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "7243.175", "endTime": "7243.9746", "body": "That's on" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "7243.9746", "endTime": "7244.295", "body": "the show." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "7244.295", "endTime": "7255.0947", "body": "Talk to him. Question. Biological age. How should consumers read into it? It seems like there's this race to the bottom Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "7255.0947", "endTime": "7288.065", "body": "In biological age where platforms have an incentive to to to rate someone as a lower biological age because they're more likely to flex it on social media or to their friends. And then the other question I have is, is that just comparing your that's just comparing your your labs to the average American and we know the average American is deeply unhealthy. So is it even when if I'm like I'm 30 years old, if my biological age is 25, is that basically just saying like you are healthier than the average American who is deeply unhealthy?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "7289.0", "endTime": "7297.16", "body": "Recently did one of those tests and it said I have the mind of a five year old biologically. We probably do this joke about it. It's funny every time." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "7297.16", "endTime": "7297.88", "body": "It's every it gets" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "7297.88", "endTime": "7299.0", "body": "every So" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 9", "startTime": "7300.1997", "endTime": "7334.4146", "body": "it is it is gamed and I think there are some companies that are pretty reckless with that. They're telling you that you're young that you're younger than any real it's called a phenotypic age is what would be kind of the fancy name for it would actually tell you. And so I I think that's a little concerning that people are doing that. Where it comes from, there's a researcher at Yale who produced the most valid calculation of biological age, and it takes nine biomarkers. And it's a little bit more a little bit fancier than just comparing you to average, but I think that's directionally." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 9", "startTime": "7334.8945", "endTime": "7363.0947", "body": "Right? And so I wouldn't put too much stock in biological age. I would take very seriously heart health markers, metabolic markers, inflammatory markers, and these are the basics. It's like know what your LDL is, know what your hemoglobin A1c is, know what your HSCRPN, c reactive protein is going to give you a sense of inflammation. If you're paying attention to those things, you're going to do way more than, you know, caring too much about a about a biological age." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "7363.495", "endTime": "7364.6147", "body": "What's your date?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "7365.495", "endTime": "7366.295", "body": "Oh, yeah. How long" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 9", "startTime": "7366.295", "endTime": "7379.93", "body": "do have? My date is yeah. So mine's at 78. It's like 02/16/2065 or something. It's weird to get an actual date, but the average user has ten to twelve years that they can add." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 9", "startTime": "7379.93", "endTime": "7395.785", "body": "So the model's also producing how much longer it thinks you can live. And then anytime your health data is updated, the calculation recalculates. So my date changes every day, but when I when I started, it was 78. I partied a little too much." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "7395.785", "endTime": "7415.255", "body": "How do you pitched a partnership with Nas Daily? Are you familiar with this YouTuber? Facebook creator? He wear he's obsessed with this concept. He wears a t shirt that has a percentage loading bar for how far he is through his life based on life expectancy and it's all a message about, you know, like enjoying every day." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "7415.575", "endTime": "7424.855", "body": "But he gets like hundreds of billions of views or millions of lots of views. Very, popular creator. Would be a very logical sponsorship maybe one day." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 9", "startTime": "7425.59", "endTime": "7431.2695", "body": "Yeah. We should talk to them. I mean, think the the reality is is, like, we're all gonna die, and we're gonna just" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "7431.2695", "endTime": "7431.9097", "body": "be Not me." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "7431.9097", "endTime": "7433.5894", "body": "Built different, but continue." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 9", "startTime": "7433.9897", "endTime": "7439.765", "body": "We're we are all gonna die no matter what people are gonna tell you. And there are things you can do to live longer. But" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "7445.605", "endTime": "7450.085", "body": "No. Sorry. We're having too much fun. Honey never sleeps. You shouldn't either." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 9", "startTime": "7450.085", "endTime": "7453.1196", "body": "I I hope you're right, actually. I really, really hope you're right." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "7453.1196", "endTime": "7454.7197", "body": "Just say you're not AGI pills." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "7454.7197", "endTime": "7456.32", "body": "Yeah. Not AGI pills. Say you're" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "7456.32", "endTime": "7458.7197", "body": "not AGI pills. We're going" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "7458.7197", "endTime": "7476.2446", "body": "to cure everything. No. I think you're right. I think just reframing mentally around what it means to be healthy, giving people another visualization on what is typically just a bunch of random nanometers to deciliters. Like it's a bunch of random stats." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "7476.58", "endTime": "7492.835", "body": "Also why people are people are getting health information constantly, at least I am. Take this something. Yeah. Do this or that. I've always been into into experimenting with with different protocols and things like that, but sometimes you need to kind of jolt people." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "7492.835", "endTime": "7493.075", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "7493.075", "endTime": "7494.995", "body": "You know? So Well, think it's fine" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 9", "startTime": "7494.995", "endTime": "7517.9946", "body": "if you're experimenting so long as you're as you're getting the basics right. I mean, I think if you're getting a full body scan but not getting colonoscopies, that's wrong. I wish I could throw the X up. But if you've done the colonoscopy and you've done the mammograms you've done everything, then like, okay, fine, maybe get the full body scan. Then on the experimenting, you got to be careful." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 9", "startTime": "7517.9946", "endTime": "7526.635", "body": "You know, the story of thalidomide, the doctors were prescribing that off label to pregnant women and then the babies were being born with like hands on their their Really," }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "7526.875", "endTime": "7527.755", "body": "really gross. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 9", "startTime": "7527.755", "endTime": "7535.04", "body": "So you got to you know, the experimenting can be a little bit I think we're a little casual about the experimenting. I'm not saying don't do it, but" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "7535.36", "endTime": "7540.1597", "body": "Yeah. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to Very chat with fascinating. On the progress." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "7540.2397", "endTime": "7541.2", "body": "Thanks for filling us in, Ben." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "7541.2", "endTime": "7542.08", "body": "Fascinating company." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "7542.08", "endTime": "7544.72", "body": "And yeah, free free blood tests out there. Also," }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "7545.455", "endTime": "7551.855", "body": "Death potentially a skill issue. Don't do it. Anyway, thank you so much. We agree we we all agree to disagree on that." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 9", "startTime": "7552.815", "endTime": "7555.615", "body": "Have a good Thanks, We'll see if we die or not. I hope you're right." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "7555.615", "endTime": "7558.495", "body": "Yeah. See you back here in seventy years. Goodbye." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "7558.495", "endTime": "7558.975", "body": "Cheers, Brent." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "7560.17", "endTime": "7576.395", "body": "Let me tell you about Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform that grows with your business that lets you sell in seconds online, in store, on mobile, on social, on marketplaces, and now with AI agents. And our next guest is Matej from Adrian. How are you doing? Welcome back." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 4", "startTime": "7576.795", "endTime": "7579.915", "body": "Hey. Good. Thanks for having me on. How are you guys doing?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "7579.915", "endTime": "7580.475", "body": "We're doing well." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "7580.475", "endTime": "7586.555", "body": "Great to see you. We met at a long journey dinner forever ago at this point." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 4", "startTime": "7586.555", "endTime": "7593.56", "body": "I think you've been on the show. We did. And we also met at the the ramp dinner. I think I was the infamous founder that snapped that phone if you guys" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 6", "startTime": "7593.56", "endTime": "7593.96", "body": "Right. Remember" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "7594.68", "endTime": "7596.0396", "body": "Oh, I missed that." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "7596.1997", "endTime": "7607.395", "body": "I'm not gonna say the guy's name Yeah. Because because It's funny. He's a friend and and it's funny and it makes him look really silly. But this this guy is sitting there. He's got the new iPhone air." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "7607.395", "endTime": "7620.1504", "body": "He's he's telling everyone in the room, you cannot possibly break this phone. This phone is indestructible. Anybody out anybody here, try to break my phone. Try to break my phone. This guy goes, okay." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "7620.1504", "endTime": "7638.125", "body": "Just bends down, just snaps it in his hand. And the guy's the guy's standing there just being like just in shock and disbelief. I thought That's what I was told and he and he was saying he was saying, I'm gonna I'm gonna email Tim Cook about this stuff. I'm sure that Apple never promised" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "7638.285", "endTime": "7640.9253", "body": "It cannot be broken" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "7640.9253", "endTime": "7644.765", "body": "by a guy from the Gundo. So" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "7645.165", "endTime": "7647.0054", "body": "so you are in The Gundo? Tell us what you're building." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 4", "startTime": "7647.95", "endTime": "7655.39", "body": "Yeah. We're we're in the Greater South Bay Area. I guess you could consider it the Gundo. I mean, we're super excited to announce our series a. Yes." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 4", "startTime": "7655.39", "endTime": "7655.63", "body": "But" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "7655.87", "endTime": "7656.83", "body": "How much are you raising?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 4", "startTime": "7657.5503", "endTime": "7659.0703", "body": "We raised $18,000,000." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "7661.115", "endTime": "7661.995", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 4", "startTime": "7665.435", "endTime": "7677.45", "body": "Enthusiasts scalable sensing infrastructure for undersea domain awareness. So think about, like, hunt for Red October, finding submarines, unmanned underwater vehicles, semisubmersibles, and so on. So yeah. So have" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "7678.0903", "endTime": "7684.89", "body": "I'm gonna maybe put it too plainly, but we don't really know much of what's going on out in the maritime domain. Is that correct?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 4", "startTime": "7685.6104", "endTime": "7698.935", "body": "Yeah. I mean, the maritime domain is getting more and more contested, like, daily. Right? Think I we have a good understanding of what happens on the surface of the oceans. There's cameras, surface boats, but everything's kind of shifting into the undersea quite quickly." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 4", "startTime": "7698.935", "endTime": "7729.355", "body": "You know? It's one of the most unexploited gaps that we have and a lot of near peer adversaries and terrorist organizations and so on and so forth are starting to move under the waves. So, like, this entire push of, you know, The US, for example, funding unmanned underwater vehicles, our our adversaries are doing the same thing. And so the big question is, like, how do we find those things intelligently, quickly, give ourselves awareness of what happens around, you know, various parts of the ocean as well as, like, our strategic bases and so on." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "7730.39", "endTime": "7742.95", "body": "Makes a lot of sense. Talk about, traction since the last time we chatted. What kind of progress have you guys made? Obviously, the new funding. I'm sure you have some great momentum, but, what's been, what what have you been actually executing on?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 4", "startTime": "7743.755", "endTime": "7759.43", "body": "Oh my goodness. So many things. So I think from the the hardware and software side, like, I mean, we've gone through three generations of hardware since we last talked. We've been moving at breakneck speeds here at Andronum. We fielded it across, like, numerous exercises." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 4", "startTime": "7759.43", "endTime": "7782.125", "body": "Most recently, we just got back from a three and a half week deployment with UUV Group up in Keephillsburg, Washington. So they're all the guys that run and, like, dictate how unmanned underwater vehicles run. So we were up there alongside with a few other folks. No mission ending failures for a three and a half week deployment. Obviously, constantly testing here off the coast of California, building up our repository of sonar signatures." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 4", "startTime": "7782.4453", "endTime": "7788.59", "body": "And we do have some things that are gonna be coming up quite soon that we're super excited to announce when they hit. So stay tuned." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "7788.59", "endTime": "7813.8096", "body": "What does integration with other defense tech companies look like now or in the future? Like, you know, there there's been like Andoril has a platform, Palantir has a platform. I'm sure a lot of different units have bespoke systems for command and control and all sorts of different things. Does that come for free? Is that something that people are just like vibe coding integrations?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "7813.8096", "endTime": "7826.7246", "body": "Or do you have to go and like do a deal and and actually figure out how you integrate? Or or do you ultimately want to be, you know, your own platform that, you know, runs as like the operating system?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 4", "startTime": "7827.6846", "endTime": "7859.5347", "body": "Yeah. I think it vastly depends on the type of technology that you're building. Right? But specifically for us, like, sonar information is so classified and compartmentalized, and it's it's very tricky to get access on data that has been compartmentalized such as this because you have numerous third party integrators that also own that data itself as well. And so that is really the reason why we went out and built Pearl, which is our passive sonar buoy, right, as well as Obsidian, which is kind of like you could call it a a c two, but really it is like the platform that ingests all this information." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 4", "startTime": "7859.695", "endTime": "7874.55", "body": "There's a bunch of like super sophisticated machine learning and effectively putting dots on a map for end users. But the c two in itself, like, there's various abstractions of it. You know, you have the god c twos that kind of live on top. You mentioned those companies' names. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 4", "startTime": "7874.63", "endTime": "7902.14", "body": "We really are trying to own the undersea domain. By building the hardware, we're building up this massive repository of sonar signatures, and that'll give us the option to then give that data to those other c two platforms if necessary. Right? So it really is like a a fine, like, a fine balance of what we have to be doing with regards to c two. But, ultimately, like, every defense tech company that's out there needs to play well together because we all have to provide an integrated solution to the end user." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 4", "startTime": "7902.14", "endTime": "7906.7803", "body": "Right? And we do have those relationships with primes and with other kind of startups as" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "7906.7803", "endTime": "7914.095", "body": "well. Yeah. You mentioned that the data is hard to get generally. You're doing machine learning which is obviously very data heavy. Yep." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "7914.095", "endTime": "7946.245", "body": "Is there like a scale AI, like a Merkor for this type of data yet? Are you like buying data from like fishing boats or like is there some world where there is a scaled data benefit even not in a in a military context but maybe you just want to get a bunch of data on how sonar performs in a swimming pool or a lake or something that's more controlled and then you can transfer learn that into, like, the actual viable domain in the final application." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 4", "startTime": "7947.125", "endTime": "7963.4697", "body": "Yeah. Sonar is super, super challenging in the fact that you can't necessarily translate environmentals to where you are deployed. Right? So, like, with radar, for instance, you just have air and it's pretty linear. Like, the ocean does a ton of weird things with regards to performance of sonar." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 4", "startTime": "7963.55", "endTime": "7981.8853", "body": "And so you really have to be deployed and you have to understand kind of the environmental factors such that you can perform this highly complex math that goes behind all of it. That's really the reason why we did build Perl. Right? Like, delivers that information in real time. Like, we kind of get this information in sub three seconds worth of latency and we process it." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 4", "startTime": "7982.07", "endTime": "8003.165", "body": "And we put dots on a map for end users, we have that environmental feature kind of built into Perl itself. And you can do base level extrapolation kind of across the board with a lot of that, but it's not super, super applicable everywhere. And so, yes, there is data that we have accessed, that is more off shelf, for instance, like how do whales sound. Right?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "8003.165", "endTime": "8003.485", "body": "Sure." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 4", "startTime": "8003.645", "endTime": "8024.745", "body": "Various different types of whale things. And at least in our, you know, kind of hot dog, no hot dog paradigm, we can say, this is a whale. This is not, you know Yeah. A submarine or some something like that. So it definitely adds a little bit more kind of feature rich environment for the end user, but most of it is really hinged on the hardware that we're developing and building." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 4", "startTime": "8024.745", "endTime": "8041.15", "body": "Right? So in this world of AI, you can't just access a massive repository of data and do a ton of AI on it. You have to build it yourself, which is really like the reason why a low cost scalable hardware solution is super, super important for us to deliver that data in real time." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "8041.23", "endTime": "8074.5503", "body": "What does actually deploying a buoy look like? Do you have to call the government before you do that? Because I I love the idea of moving fast and doing r and d and just dropping something in the water and that's probably fine but at the same time like you're you could accidentally be spying on like a US submarine and they might not want you to be spying on them even if you're like a friendly. Right? So like, what is the flywheel to get the permission to, you know, do the test that you need to do before you get the contract to prove that you can do it?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "8074.5503", "endTime": "8076.07", "body": "Like, what's the sequence of events?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 4", "startTime": "8076.63", "endTime": "8088.835", "body": "Yeah. I mean, we're working hand in hand with a with a lot of these folks at the government. Right? And so, like, I I detailed the the deployment, in Keyport, Washington. That is something that we scheduled prior going up there." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 4", "startTime": "8088.835", "endTime": "8109.07", "body": "You know, we do a lot of verification and validation testing here off the coast of California, but it's kind of just like put it in the water, see if it works, check it out, pull it out, and then ship it to the location with the end user and test alongside them. We've done that kind of across the coast. Right? So we were in San Diego at a large fleet exercise at the beginning of this year as well. And so it does require coordinating with end users." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 4", "startTime": "8109.07", "endTime": "8125.095", "body": "Right? But that's ultimately what we're looking for anyway. Like, what are the feedbacks that these folks give to us such that we can iterate much more quickly? We could do that in our own engineering vacuum or we could just be talking to these people directly and that's what we really want to strive to do. And we've gotten really positive feedback from them." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 4", "startTime": "8125.095", "endTime": "8136.05", "body": "Right? Like, other people build buoys. They're very large. It takes a lot of effort to put these things out like gigantic research vessels, you know, barges. It takes a week to pre deploy." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 4", "startTime": "8136.37", "endTime": "8151.485", "body": "We just kick ours off the side of the boat. Right? And so when we give these things, these buoys to the end operators, we say break them, test them, go deploy them yourself, give us the feedback such that we can put that into our loop of iteration. And they do that. They're super happy to break things." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 4", "startTime": "8151.485", "endTime": "8154.125", "body": "Right? And I think that's the most valuable thing that we can ask for." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "8154.44", "endTime": "8158.52", "body": "I love it. Well, congratulations and thank you Awesome progress. On the show. We'll talk to" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "8158.52", "endTime": "8159.7197", "body": "you soon. Okay. Great to see you." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 4", "startTime": "8159.7197", "endTime": "8160.1997", "body": "Thank you so much." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "8160.1997", "endTime": "8160.6797", "body": "Keep snapping." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "8160.6797", "endTime": "8160.84", "body": "Have a" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 10", "startTime": "8160.84", "endTime": "8161.2397", "body": "good one." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "8161.2397", "endTime": "8164.36", "body": "IPhone. I was gonna say don't snap anymore iPhone errors but No." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "8164.36", "endTime": "8164.92", "body": "Keep it going." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "8165.0", "endTime": "8165.48", "body": "Keep it going." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "8165.48", "endTime": "8167.4", "body": "If anyone has an I wants an iPhone snapped." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "8167.665", "endTime": "8167.8247", "body": "Well" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "8167.905", "endTime": "8170.065", "body": "That's your guy. They're saying Who" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "8170.065", "endTime": "8172.2246", "body": "wants that? Who wants that?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "8172.2246", "endTime": "8178.8647", "body": "Sometimes I want my iPhone snapped. Diego said John needs someone to clear his desk of diet cokes every twenty minutes." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "8178.8647", "endTime": "8180.145", "body": "Can I get a recycling bin over here?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "8180.145", "endTime": "8181.3447", "body": "You're only on your third." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "8181.3447", "endTime": "8181.7446", "body": "Yeah. I'm on" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "8181.8247", "endTime": "8183.88", "body": "This is a typical typical day for Well," }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "8183.88", "endTime": "8195.96", "body": "it's an important day. We have Justin from NVIDIA. He's the VP of Enterprise AI here to talk about NVIDIA launching the Open Source AI Alliance. Justin, thank you so much for taking the time to come talk to us." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 12", "startTime": "8196.76", "endTime": "8197.96", "body": "Yeah. Thanks for having us." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "8198.245", "endTime": "8213.525", "body": "So can you start by giving I mean, the we we discussed the letter. I think a lot of people have read it. But what what is your elevator pitch for the Open Secure AI Alliance, the letter, how they interact, like the overall project here, the goals?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 12", "startTime": "8214.67", "endTime": "8241.925", "body": "Yeah. I think let's just say there's been this moment in the industry Mhmm. Especially with this incident that happened at Hugging Face Yeah. Where there's just this collective awareness across all the industry leaders that, you know, doing a lot of the work in cybersecurity out in the open where we can look at open models, open harnesses, open safety evaluations Mhmm. As an industry is gonna give basically the the broadest collective defense of our organization." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 12", "startTime": "8241.925", "endTime": "8250.36", "body": "So that's why we put the letter out there. That's why all these companies are kind of rushing in to talk about sort of the importance of of this initiative." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "8250.36", "endTime": "8274.04", "body": "It seems like it's going extremely well. I I totaled it up. I think $18,000,000,000,000 of market cap has signed on across something like 35 companies and more. I'm interested in what you are there any other outcomes or is this purely just avoiding a bad outcome? Because the whole framing is is is basically don't ban." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "8274.04", "endTime": "8282.2", "body": "Don't do something. It's don't take an action here. Allow the status quo to continue. Is that the correct formulation of the of the proposal?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 12", "startTime": "8283.324", "endTime": "8314.925", "body": "Well, I think it's a recognition that you always wanna give the defenders of enterprises across Mhmm. Really critical industries, financial services Yeah. Energy, telecommunications, an asymmetric advantage to protect their infrastructure. And the best way to do that is you give them, you know, state of the art frontier open systems that they can, you know, scan, remediate, patch their infrastructure. Now they should always have the advantage because they understand the code, the configurations, and how they have their infrastructure running." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 12", "startTime": "8315.005", "endTime": "8320.766", "body": "But they need access to the tools to basically get ahead of any potential security issues." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "8321.645", "endTime": "8348.285", "body": "Okay. I guess like the steel man of the other side is that this isn't an asymmetric advantage to the organizations that you described. It's actually a perfectly symmetric advantage. The attackers will also have frontier open source like great open source tools. And if we allow open source to proliferate, at least it will be balanced." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "8348.285", "endTime": "8364.06", "body": "But can you explain a little bit more about where the asymmetry on the defender side comes? Because that sounds amazing. We want the defenders to win but it feels like if everyone's using the same tools it's actually just a level playing field and this could just be a battle. Could still win. Could be fine." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "8364.06", "endTime": "8366.665", "body": "But what's driving the asymmetry?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 12", "startTime": "8366.825", "endTime": "8369.545", "body": "Yeah. You got to remember when when you're running a service" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "8369.785", "endTime": "8370.024", "body": "Mhmm." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 12", "startTime": "8370.1045", "endTime": "8390.7", "body": "And you have terms of service, like you know who's who's accessing that service. Yeah. And there, you're putting additional guardrails on there on on safe use. Mhmm. You can also if there if people start to misuse the service, you can quickly patch guardrails and basically ensure that people are using the service appropriately." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 12", "startTime": "8390.7", "endTime": "8408.1455", "body": "So so that in in of itself should give the defensive teams the ability to run, I'd say, these these better capabilities to clean up their infrastructure, patch their infrastructure, and then service providers that are hosting any of the models, you know, should should run them with appropriate guardrails." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "8408.53", "endTime": "8439.86", "body": "How do you think the equilibrium plays out if sort of, you know, companies get, like big companies get access to advanced open source models. So they're patching their systems. They're doing stuff. But there's still a lot of attackers out there. And there's this weird scenario that people have been talking about where a small business that might have a credit card stored here or some piece of personally identifiable information stored in a less secure system." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "8440.58", "endTime": "8452.98", "body": "Now they're responsible for spinning up an open source cybersecurity defense system. Like, what's the equilibrium that keeps long tail of organizations secure?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 12", "startTime": "8454.125", "endTime": "8475.51", "body": "Yeah. You've got to still pair, you know, openness with strong safeguards Mhmm. Like rules on malicious use Sure. Laws that prevent against malicious use, and then obviously rapid remediation of anything that you know that's going on. And, you know, that the the conversation around open models is no different than the conversation around I mean, I I think open software." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 12", "startTime": "8475.51", "endTime": "8488.495", "body": "Yeah. And you think of open software whether it's Linux or Kubernetes or PyTorch, that that open software, you know, built the foundation of our economy. 80% of our digital economy is powered by open source." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "8488.495", "endTime": "8488.976", "body": "Mhmm." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 12", "startTime": "8489.215", "endTime": "8504.149", "body": "And I'll say good stewards of open source software can sort of debate open standards in an open way. They can look at evaluations. They can look at patching and remediation, and they can work collectively for the defense of The U. S. Economy." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 12", "startTime": "8504.149", "endTime": "8545.405", "body": "I think we've to look at models the same way. As soon as models are out there in, I'll call, the public domain, you can fork them, you can patch them, and you can remediate any issues that cybersecurity people find in those models. The goal of this organization is to have those conversations out in the public. I think know, it's an important conversation for all of us to have. But we wanna make sure, again, that you you have, I'll say, a diverse set of tools at your disposal as a as a cybersecurity defender so that, you know, if a model refuses to do the work that you needed to do, you have other options to continue to defend your organization." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "8545.966", "endTime": "8581.875", "body": "What like, who do you think will step into the role of, like, model evaluator or model tester? Because we were we were just talking with Dean Meyer from Sequoia Capital and he was, you know, illustrating a possible scenario where there's like a backdoor in a model or some nefarious thing sort of hidden below the surface. So the model still tests well on benchmarks. You deploy it and then over time it does something nefarious. It feels like, again, that's another big burden to potentially put on a small business." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "8581.875", "endTime": "8591.37", "body": "But if there's some sort of, you know, American company that steps up and validates and tests, maybe there's an even balance there. How do you see that playing out?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 12", "startTime": "8592.01", "endTime": "8601.955", "body": "Well, I think, you know, organizations like Red Hat have done this open source software. Right? Sure. Where they cleared their CVEs, they they provide the commercial support to enterprises. Mhmm." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 12", "startTime": "8601.955", "endTime": "8642.78", "body": "I feel like it creates an opportunity for businesses to step in and be able to do the same thing with open open models and provide the same commercial patching and support into into enterprises. So I think that's a market that will emerge as we go forward. But but, ultimately, I think allowing, I'll call it, cybersecurity professionals to continue to pen test and understand the limits of these models is what's going to allow us to build that lifecycle to do patching and remediation of any vulnerabilities that can exist in these model weights. Now, the fact that they're open means you can test them and understand the limits of them. The challenge is with a lot of the model weights that might be hosted." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 12", "startTime": "8643.181", "endTime": "8663.105", "body": "The terms of service prevent cybersecurity people from researching and looking for any backdoors in those as well. The problem doesn't go away whether it's hosted or open. Sure. They can exist. And I think the the spotlight of having more cybersecurity professionals, you know, evaluating these things is just gonna lead to better collective defense." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "8663.984", "endTime": "8677.45", "body": "I don't know how much you can speak to the to what the Nemotron team is doing, but broadly, what should organizations expect from Nemotron, the family of models over the next, let's say, six months?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 12", "startTime": "8678.25", "endTime": "8699.28", "body": "Oh, man. I don't know that I can talk about where we're going. But, generally, our approach has been like, let's again do it all in the open. Let's basically put the datasets out there that we're training into these models so people can understand the data that blends that went into the models. Let's put the model weights out there." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 12", "startTime": "8699.28", "endTime": "8743.935", "body": "Let's put the training techniques out there and the evaluations out there and basically use that as a foundation for building custom intelligence into enterprises. That's the other part of the conversation that's lost is these open models are critical for enterprises basically building their own intelligence and basically maintaining, I'll call it, a reinforcement learning wheel or a flywheel on these open models so they can maintain their competitive advantage. Providing that foundation of data and open weights and data blends gives enterprises that. Now with Nemotron, they're really language models, but we have a bunch of other domains and models. We have, Cosmos, which is world foundation models." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 12", "startTime": "8743.935", "endTime": "8766.11", "body": "We have Alpamayo for autonomous driving. We have Groot for vision language action models for robots. I think across industries, the idea of having these open models to build the startup ecosystem, allow enterprises to domain adapt them and build their own intelligence is really important really for the future growth of our industry." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "8766.67", "endTime": "8796.829", "body": "How important are can you give us some context on what you're seeing or hearing from other business leaders about the value of open source purely economically? Just we went through this token maxing boom. I think every enterprise leader feels that AI is valuable but it can be very expensive. How are they thinking about efficiency right now with the current cost to benefit trade offs and how does open source change that?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 12", "startTime": "8797.3955", "endTime": "8805.476", "body": "I mean, I can I can put my NVIDIA hat on here? We we are the same way. Right? We use all frontier models. We love the frontier models." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 12", "startTime": "8805.476", "endTime": "8827.955", "body": "Yeah. They are they're amazing for for driving efficiency and how we do, software development and chip design and how we run a competitive business. But modern way to build applications now are really an ensemble of models where you want to use the frontier for where they're unique and they add differentiated value. Like a really complex agentic plan Mhmm." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 9", "startTime": "8828.035", "endTime": "8828.275", "body": "You want" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 12", "startTime": "8828.275", "endTime": "8841.45", "body": "to run through that frontier model and then you want to use the the open model weights for things that are more trivial like document summarization. Sure. And the two can complement each other to drive a lot more cost efficient applications across enterprise." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "8841.45", "endTime": "8861.1455", "body": "Yeah. And then anything that's been fine tuned on your particular data, that example from Thinking Machines with Bridgewater's, like, information pipeline, obviously, they got incredible performance at great at very low cost because it was a a unique use case that was gonna run on a continuous basis and so they were able to get a lot of value there." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "8861.1455", "endTime": "8871.2705", "body": "It's just common sense. It wouldn't make sense to to hire you and then have you just be a BDR doing cold email, you know. Like, you sort of it wouldn't be a very efficient use of" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "8871.43", "endTime": "8874.23", "body": "That's a great analogy. Sorry." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 12", "startTime": "8876.23", "endTime": "8902.029", "body": "Yeah. Sorry. I was just going to say, yeah, I think I think your point is spot on. I think, you know, there's a bunch of other, you know, model makers like TML is a great company, Reflection, you know, Runway, you know, many different model makers across different domains. I think you want a rich ecosystem here, you know, of start ups, you know, building the future of what's possible with with this industrial revolution going on with AI." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 12", "startTime": "8902.029", "endTime": "8913.245", "body": "So we're just happy to, you know, advocate on behalf of the open ecosystem, but really it complements, you know, the closed ecosystem. Yeah. And all of it sort of has its its unique value here." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "8913.405", "endTime": "8927.96", "body": "So the alliance is, like, pretty huge at this point. Do you want to grow it a lot bigger? Or is this a solid enough base to go where you want to go next or will this be something that just continues to grow? What do you think?" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 12", "startTime": "8928.04", "endTime": "8955.94", "body": "You know, I think the the the inbound requests around this is is is kind of blown us away Sure. By the appetite and the interest. Think ultimately what we want to do is kind of work as a community and share sort of best practices. We also, with this, we put out a new agent harness that we think is phenomenal at, you know, reasoning. It's great at coding, and it's and it's great at cybersecurity tasks." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 12", "startTime": "8956.181", "endTime": "9003.435", "body": "And so if we all sort of share advancements in the open, we can build, you know, the best technology together. And and, you know, I think some of the things that we'll keep working on as an ecosystem is, I mean, to your point, what are the evaluations that we should be building? You know, how do we test and, you know, I'll call it open models and and look for, I'll say, safety issues in those models. How do you start to build, I'll call it, more cyber ranges that you put agents through to understand how truly capable they are? I mean, I think part of the part of the challenge with this cybersecurity discussion is it's been over indexed on, I'll call it, know, benchmarking for vulnerability discovery." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 12", "startTime": "9003.435", "endTime": "9024.455", "body": "Vulnerability discovery is not the same as, you know, it's like going through an an attack chain. So, you know, I think we've just gotta have more more, like, same conversation in the open as an ecosystem on, you know, what are the right ways to safeguard this stuff and and put it to work and to drive the efficiency that it can bring us, you know, across every business." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "9025.255", "endTime": "9026.615", "body": "Thank you so much for taking the time" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "9026.615", "endTime": "9027.976", "body": "to come, Brittany. Yeah. Great to meet you, Justin." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "9027.976", "endTime": "9031.815", "body": "Great to meet you. Yeah. Thanks so much. A good rest Cheers. Of your Goodbye." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "9034.215", "endTime": "9035.255", "body": "That's our show, folks." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "9035.255", "endTime": "9048.5", "body": "Thank you so much for tuning in. We will see you tomorrow. There's a lot more news but we can go through it tomorrow. Starship launched and there's a beautiful video that somehow got taken down so we can't even share it. But you can go find it." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "9048.5", "endTime": "9051.735", "body": "There's some cool stuff there. Anyway, go" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "9052.136", "endTime": "9053.335", "body": "have the best afternoon." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "9053.335", "endTime": "9053.735", "body": "Have the best" }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "9053.735", "endTime": "9061.335", "body": "afternoon ever. Have the best Monday afternoon ever. Thank you to Cooper for always coming in at the market close." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "9061.335", "endTime": "9070.28", "body": "Good crew Get chat. Like Thank you so much for tuning in and chatting. We do read it. It's a lot of fun. Leave us five stars on Apple Podcasts and Spotify." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 1", "startTime": "9070.28", "endTime": "9075.32", "body": "Sign up for a newsletter at tbpn.com and we will see you tomorrow at 11AM. Goodbye." }, { "speaker": "Speaker 2", "startTime": "9079.155", "endTime": "9080.995", "body": "We love you. Goodbye. Goodbye." } ] }