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Zach has just released his
new book, the Trade Gap.

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It's a fascinating read and it's
packed with insight and picking up

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a copy is a great way to support
the important work he's doing.

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00:00:24,630 --> 00:00:29,010
I've read it myself, and I can confidently
say you'll get a ton of value out of it.

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00:00:29,790 --> 00:00:33,660
Speaking of value, one of the ways
we go deeper here at Silver Core

6
00:00:33,660 --> 00:00:38,160
is through the Outpost, our private
podcast for Silver Core Club members,

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00:00:38,910 --> 00:00:42,780
club member Jess wrote in Above the
Outpost and here's what she had to say.

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00:00:44,130 --> 00:00:48,630
The Outpost is a delightful
bite-sized mini pod with just enough

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content to kickstart your brain
into doing some deep thinking.

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The homework given at the end of
almost every episode is awesome.

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Makes me feel extra engaged with
what I'm listening to as well.

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It encourages me to think outside
the box on a lot of topics.

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Keep 'em coming.

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If you are a member, your personal
link is waiting for you in the

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Silver Court Club dashboard.

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If not, you can learn more@silvercourt.ca.

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Now let's get into this podcast.

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I'm joined today by a man who's
worked with Fortune 500 Giants.

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He's authored bestsellers, he's lived
off grid, and he's welded his way back to

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something most of us didn't realize We'd
lost with his new book, the Trade Gap,

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as opposed to romanticizing the trades.

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He's here to show us why we
desperately need them and

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what's at stake if we don't act.

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Welcome back to the Silver Court
Podcast, my friend Zach Hanson.

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Yeah, well, I'm glad to be back,
you know, as a, as a two timer and

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you know, I'm glad to actual friend
someone who's actually literally

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sat down and broken bread with you.

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Uh, you know, glad to be here.

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Speaking of breaking, breaking bread,
you know what I'm really craving.

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One of those.

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Now, I don't know how you pronounce 'em.

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S Scone or S scone.

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Someone's gonna correct me one side
or the other, English, Scottish, or

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vice versa, but Merits Holy Crow.

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I have been craving those ever
since we had 'em last time.

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They're in Boise, even though in
Canada, I think we call 'em a donut.

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Uh, it's a deep fried, it's, it's amazing.

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If you're ever down in Boise,
Idaho, whoever's listening to

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this, check that place out.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Merits Cafe.

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Been there for over 50 years.

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It's probably one of the few, like,
I don't know if you'd call it a

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hole in the wall, but it's got that
kind of old diner western decor.

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But yeah, they have what they call
scones, which is really like, I'm from

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the south, so I would've called it a
funnel cake, but it's like a flat dough

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fried with cinnamon sugar or whatever
else you want on it, but very good.

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Oh man, they're so good.

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Yeah, I don't know.

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I don't think hole in the wall
is the right term, but it is,

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it's definitely a throwback.

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Yeah.

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It's, uh, and my favorite
places to eat are like that.

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It's funny how the atmosphere in a, in a
restaurant can do so much for the food.

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Like you can go into fine dining
when it's so sterile and you're just

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like, you can't wait to get out.

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Well, another one along those
lines that I think would fit that

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motif is a hundred percent the
Beaver Lodge up in Atlanta, Idaho.

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Oh, yes.

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You're not getting the best food
in the world, but the, uh, the

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atmosphere makes it, uh, it worthwhile.

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Yeah.

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Well, what's the population there now?

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Well, I mean, if you subtract us from
being full-time residents, I mean, we're,

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they're probably floating around 32, 33.

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That's not 3,200, that's 32, 33 people.

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Yeah.

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The Beaver Lodge was, uh, was
definitely a cool place to be at,

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you know, and I think about like
some of my favorite restaurants, uh,

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tarps in Boston, San Tar, tars Pizza.

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It's.

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It's an old throwback kind of dive,
and I, it's just that vibe that

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I'm attracted to The Beaver Lodge.

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You go in there and everyone's
kinda looking at you side eyed,

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like, who is this person coming in?

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Because when the population, 32,
33, anybody coming in that doesn't

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look like they belong, there is
going to be some question marks.

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Yeah.

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It it, it goes that way until you say, oh,
I'm here with insert name of resident, and

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they're like, oh, okay, okay, I got you.

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Yeah.

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And then they're bending over
backwards and then they, the

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hospitality was amazing there.

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The, the phish on the
way up there, holy crow.

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So some of the best fishing I've ever had.

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In my life on the rivers driving
up to your place there in Atlanta.

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Now you'd lent me that 10 carra rod.

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Mm-hmm.

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And I'll be honest, I was a little
shy about 10 Kera because it's kinda

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like skaters and roller blades.

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That one joke comes out about roller
blades and nobody wants to touch 'em.

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Right.

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Uhhuh.

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And then, uh, with those 10 karara rods,
the traditionalists, the people who

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are into fly fishing or spay fishing
or whatever nim thing, and they'll all

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kind of got their opinion about what 10
Karara is about, despite the fact that

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10 karara has been around way longer
than any of these other disciplines.

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And, uh, so I, I never touched it and I
stayed away from it, but you, you lent

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me the rod and now I've got a 10 car rod
in the back of my truck that lives there.

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And if I'm early for a meeting and
I know there's a river nearby, if

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I am, I got a little bit of time
to kill, bang outta the truck.

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It's up in seconds and
I'm fishing with it.

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So thank you for introducing me to that.

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Well, it was funny, like, uh, and
I guess maybe context for people

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listening, I guess this was this
last summer or the summer before.

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Time is a flat circle for me right now.

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Uh, a hundred percent.

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Same with me.

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Um,

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last summer, right.

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I wanna say last summer
there was a heat wave.

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It was like 42 or something
when we were over there.

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That's Celsius for the people
listening in America, which is

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like, yes, 103, 104 Fahrenheit.

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Mm-hmm.

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Yeah, it

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was crazy.

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Yeah.

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But when you got up in the
mountains, it was better.

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But nonetheless, you and your wife
went up and stayed at our cabin.

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And I just remember, you know,
I hand you that 10 car rod and

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I know nothing about fishing.

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That was a, that was a gift from somebody
else to me, and I hadn't used it yet.

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And I think you stopped at a, a.
Fly shop here in Boise and you know,

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outfitted it and I've used it since then.

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And you kind of gave me the other flies
and stuff you got for it, but man, the

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pictures you sent to me on the North
fork of the Boise just hammering fish.

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Oh man.

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It was like every time I
cast it was one coming back.

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It was, it was insane, man.

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I, I had such a good time there.

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I

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did.

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You just put your finger in
the air on the north floor.

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'cause wherever you stopped
that was like the honey hole.

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I know.

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You dropped me a pin and I'm keeping
that for when I need to go back.

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What do you think that was?

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Divine intervention or just luck?

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Yeah.

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Divine intervention probably
had some play in there.

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I, I tend to try and find places
where there aren't other people, even

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though the people are usually the
indicator of where it's a hotspot.

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Mm-hmm But you, you know, it's like
going out into the salt shuck out here

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and you take your boat out and you see
all these people and they're trolling

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in lines and everybody wants to get in
that line 'cause they figure the other

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person know what's, knows what's up
and I'll just stay completely away from

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everybody else and I'll catch and all
these other people don't realize that the

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first person who set up had no idea what
they're doing and they're just trolling

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and everyone else started trolling around.

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Nothing attracts a crowd like a crowd.

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Right.

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That's how it goes.

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But man, that was awesome.

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I'm glad you guys were able to
get up there and have success

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fishing and poking around.

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And for those that don't know,
like for my first book Turning

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Faroh, it was all about my move to
that small town of Atlanta, Idaho.

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And that's where you and I
connected the first time.

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And I was pretty excited that
you guys got to at least go and.

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And see it.

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There's very few people that I've
connected with over the past few years

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that have had the opportunity to, but
I'm always excited when someone can,

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oh, you know what?

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And I'm, I'm the type that always says no.

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Someone's like, oh, you
should stay at my place.

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No, nah, nah, it's okay.

168
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Oh, you should borrow this.

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Nah, nah.

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All right.

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And I, I'm, it's just my personality type
for whatever reason, and you'll need both.

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I'm so glad that I said yes.

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I mean, there is some arm
twisting, like you were persistent.

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I'm like, you know what?

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I think he means it.

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Okay.

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I'm gonna say yes and what an
adventure and I mean, okay.

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So hot out, but nice, cool stream
going out the side, that gets too cold.

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Jump in the hot springs.

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I mean, it was, it was beautiful.

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Yeah.

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00:08:01,995 --> 00:08:02,745
Well that's awesome.

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00:08:02,745 --> 00:08:06,675
I'm glad and you guys were great guests
and very gracious and everything, so

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00:08:06,945 --> 00:08:09,225
Yeah, we only threw one
party, I mean, warm.

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00:08:09,225 --> 00:08:09,975
Are you cleaned up

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00:08:09,975 --> 00:08:10,455
pretty good.

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00:08:10,515 --> 00:08:12,615
You know, it a little puke
spot, but other than that,

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00:08:13,845 --> 00:08:17,385
yeah, I think we got most of the 33
people out there, but it was pretty good.

189
00:08:17,475 --> 00:08:20,445
Uh, yeah, there was some like
Canadian denim left around, but other

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00:08:20,445 --> 00:08:23,745
than that, I, well that's, I mean
that's the Canadian tuxedo, right?

191
00:08:23,745 --> 00:08:27,825
The denim jacket and the, uh,
left little maple syrup stains

192
00:08:27,825 --> 00:08:28,845
in the, uh, in the corner.

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00:08:28,845 --> 00:08:29,565
But aside from

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that, they're all forgivable sins.

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00:08:31,785 --> 00:08:32,294
Yeah.

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00:08:32,355 --> 00:08:36,585
So we were chatting last was what
connected us was turning feral.

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And so you and your background in
AI and in the tech industry and

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00:08:41,625 --> 00:08:47,955
computers, and then you find yourself
supporting your family through trapping.

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00:08:48,105 --> 00:08:48,195
Mm-hmm.

200
00:08:49,005 --> 00:08:50,325
Bit of a throwback skill.

201
00:08:50,385 --> 00:08:53,115
And now you've got the
book, the trade gap.

202
00:08:53,115 --> 00:08:53,565
Mm-hmm.

203
00:08:53,805 --> 00:08:54,435
And when we were.

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00:08:54,690 --> 00:08:55,770
Uh, together.

205
00:08:55,770 --> 00:09:01,410
Last time you were midway through
the process of learning to weld Yep.

206
00:09:01,410 --> 00:09:03,450
Stick welding, I think it was,
was that you were working on.

207
00:09:03,630 --> 00:09:03,870
Yep.

208
00:09:04,260 --> 00:09:05,430
Where are you at with that now?

209
00:09:06,030 --> 00:09:06,810
Still doing it?

210
00:09:06,870 --> 00:09:10,890
You know, I, as a hobby, so I mean,
I guess context for folks and, you

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00:09:10,890 --> 00:09:15,660
know, if you've listened to the first
podcast, turning feral, um, was my

212
00:09:16,140 --> 00:09:24,420
adventure from being a white collar
corporate desk jockey, which for all

213
00:09:24,420 --> 00:09:25,950
intents and purposes, I still am.

214
00:09:26,430 --> 00:09:27,750
Um, but that was my career.

215
00:09:27,750 --> 00:09:32,490
I never grew up in the outdoors outside
of just, you know, occasional outings.

216
00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:36,600
But I didn't grow up hunting, fishing, got
an interest in it, went through a divorce,

217
00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:40,440
ended up moving to the most remote
town in the lower 48, Atlanta, Idaho.

218
00:09:40,740 --> 00:09:43,950
Um, kind of restarting my life
and learning to hunt, ultimately

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00:09:43,950 --> 00:09:46,590
trap, which is where most of
my passion ended up lying.

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00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:47,370
Um.

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00:09:48,089 --> 00:09:51,479
And just kind of rediscovering
what it meant to be human.

222
00:09:51,719 --> 00:09:54,479
'cause I was always stuck at
a computer, um, playing with

223
00:09:54,479 --> 00:09:55,979
algorithms, all that good jazz.

224
00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:57,689
And that's been a great adventure.

225
00:09:57,689 --> 00:09:59,489
That's been the last
seven years of my life.

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00:09:59,489 --> 00:10:03,780
Remarried multiple awesome
kids, my wife's great as well.

227
00:10:04,770 --> 00:10:09,239
But in that process, I always kept my
day job, but I was starting to learn

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00:10:09,239 --> 00:10:13,589
skills on the side, mostly trapping, um,
you know, some welding, some other stuff

229
00:10:13,589 --> 00:10:17,459
that you just have to learn in order to
live a relatively off grid lifestyle.

230
00:10:17,699 --> 00:10:20,160
You know, even just down to
changing your own oil and fixing

231
00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:21,660
plumbing issues, things like that.

232
00:10:21,660 --> 00:10:22,650
Mm-hmm.

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00:10:22,651 --> 00:10:22,651
Um,

234
00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:27,329
and it was kind of just a natural
progression for me from going

235
00:10:27,329 --> 00:10:29,819
white collar to kind of being
out in the middle of nowhere.

236
00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:35,339
Um, and what Travis was kind of alluding
to in 2023, I, for the first time in my

237
00:10:35,339 --> 00:10:41,790
professional white collar career, had the
ax fall on me in the result of a layoff.

238
00:10:41,790 --> 00:10:41,849
So,

239
00:10:42,104 --> 00:10:42,385
mm-hmm.

240
00:10:42,765 --> 00:10:46,650
All of a sudden I was
staring at two mortgages.

241
00:10:46,710 --> 00:10:52,620
A bunch of kids, you know, wife
and I had all the white collar

242
00:10:52,620 --> 00:10:56,790
manifest destiny kinda laid out as
far as I had six months of savings.

243
00:10:56,790 --> 00:10:58,470
That's kind of what
people in the US tell you.

244
00:10:58,470 --> 00:11:01,530
Like, I have six months of savings in the
event of an emergency, you get laid off.

245
00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:03,780
And I was like, good, I'm good.

246
00:11:04,020 --> 00:11:05,040
I am okay here.

247
00:11:05,100 --> 00:11:06,660
I didn't feel nervous when it happened.

248
00:11:06,660 --> 00:11:07,920
I was like, I'll find a new job.

249
00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:08,610
No problem.

250
00:11:09,150 --> 00:11:11,580
Well, long story made very short.

251
00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:15,120
Fast forward 11 months later,
we've blown through all of that

252
00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:17,430
six months of, uh, extra money.

253
00:11:17,430 --> 00:11:17,520
Mm-hmm.

254
00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:21,480
We had stowed away and all of a sudden
the screws were to me to say, you gotta

255
00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:23,040
figure out how to provide for your family.

256
00:11:23,490 --> 00:11:26,400
And ultimately that came
through the form of trapping.

257
00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:30,540
I had some contracts with us Fish and
Wildlife, um, you know, was doing some

258
00:11:30,540 --> 00:11:35,430
wolf trapping, which pays pretty well
in Idaho and some other stuff just full

259
00:11:35,460 --> 00:11:37,470
bore selling pelts, the whole nine.

260
00:11:38,175 --> 00:11:41,655
And that's how I paid my mortgages
before I ultimately found another

261
00:11:41,655 --> 00:11:45,314
job in the white collar industry, uh,
which is where I'm at now, still kind

262
00:11:45,314 --> 00:11:49,064
of toiling away for the man, but for
a little bit of a bigger paycheck.

263
00:11:49,125 --> 00:11:53,385
Um, and that's kinda what spurred
the trade gap, which was just my dive

264
00:11:53,385 --> 00:11:57,615
into understanding like, okay, the
only thing that saved my bacon in that

265
00:11:57,615 --> 00:12:01,155
scenario was just by fortune alone.

266
00:12:01,515 --> 00:12:05,145
I had started to learn some form of a
trade and my version of trade's very

267
00:12:05,145 --> 00:12:09,435
loose, but it was trapping for me and
some taxidermy, um, that floated us.

268
00:12:09,734 --> 00:12:13,245
Had I not had that, I, I don't
know what would've happened.

269
00:12:13,245 --> 00:12:15,375
We definitely would've been
liquidating more assets.

270
00:12:15,405 --> 00:12:19,665
We would've been really pushing, you
know, the line a little bit more.

271
00:12:19,665 --> 00:12:23,084
I would've been, you know, getting a
job at the local store, which is fine.

272
00:12:23,415 --> 00:12:28,305
Um, but it saved me and that's what
inspired the book itself, which we can

273
00:12:28,305 --> 00:12:29,625
talk about too here in a little bit.

274
00:12:30,150 --> 00:12:30,689
Yeah.

275
00:12:30,750 --> 00:12:34,740
You know, eh, Chapin had that quote outta
suffering of emerged as strongest souls.

276
00:12:34,740 --> 00:12:37,560
The most massive characters
are seared with scars.

277
00:12:37,709 --> 00:12:37,800
Mm-hmm.

278
00:12:38,550 --> 00:12:43,800
Um, had it not been for that suffering
and that pain that you're feeling, you

279
00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:49,875
probably wouldn't have been spurred on to,
uh, to learn welding, to, to use trapping

280
00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:52,500
as a means of a, uh, a livelihood.

281
00:12:52,829 --> 00:12:56,130
Um, where would you be if
you didn't get laid off?

282
00:12:56,370 --> 00:12:57,479
What would your life look like?

283
00:12:57,630 --> 00:13:00,689
I mean, it would look similar to what
it is now, but I would have fewer

284
00:13:00,689 --> 00:13:06,689
skills that a, I enjoy doing and b,
you know, act as a hedge against, you

285
00:13:06,689 --> 00:13:12,480
know, what I foresee as a full change
in our economy and the way that our

286
00:13:13,859 --> 00:13:19,050
system here in the US and even Canada
has been set up over the last 20 years.

287
00:13:19,530 --> 00:13:20,339
Tell me about that.

288
00:13:20,939 --> 00:13:25,890
So, once I got hired again is when I
started to write this book, you know.

289
00:13:27,030 --> 00:13:30,630
When I got hired, I was really reflecting
over the pain that you just mentioned.

290
00:13:30,780 --> 00:13:30,870
Sure.

291
00:13:30,870 --> 00:13:32,160
It was 11 months of pain.

292
00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:35,940
It was a lot of my wife and I on our
knees praying for, you know, something

293
00:13:35,940 --> 00:13:37,470
to come about to help change it.

294
00:13:37,680 --> 00:13:40,770
We were going back and forth on
whether we needed to sell our cabin.

295
00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:46,650
We sold our car, you know, we were
down to like three kids, two adults,

296
00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:49,650
no vehicles in a non walkable city.

297
00:13:49,830 --> 00:13:51,450
You know, it, it was, it was tough.

298
00:13:51,660 --> 00:13:51,930
Mm-hmm.

299
00:13:52,170 --> 00:13:57,330
So, out of the reflection, I started
to think a lot about a lot of things.

300
00:13:57,330 --> 00:13:59,550
One, I went to night welding school.

301
00:13:59,550 --> 00:14:02,310
I was like, look, I'm going to
start to double down on trades.

302
00:14:02,310 --> 00:14:03,180
That means something to me.

303
00:14:03,180 --> 00:14:06,750
And just for the record right now,
you know, I, I still do some stick

304
00:14:06,750 --> 00:14:10,710
welding, but I also went and I've
started my apprenticeship for getting

305
00:14:10,710 --> 00:14:12,690
my electrical journeyman's license.

306
00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:13,620
It's a very long process.

307
00:14:13,620 --> 00:14:13,830
Oh, wow.

308
00:14:13,890 --> 00:14:16,080
Especially part-time, like
this is probably a 10 year.

309
00:14:16,665 --> 00:14:19,845
Um, process that I'm going
under, but doing nights Wow.

310
00:14:20,025 --> 00:14:24,105
For being an electrician and kind of
helping out with a, an electrician friend.

311
00:14:24,105 --> 00:14:30,105
I know from time to time when he needs
it to get a friendship hours, but you

312
00:14:30,105 --> 00:14:33,915
know, it was the reflection on that and
saying like, I don't ever wanna be caught

313
00:14:33,915 --> 00:14:35,655
with my proverbial pants down again.

314
00:14:36,525 --> 00:14:42,105
And the trends that I'm seeing in the
white collar tech world are layoffs.

315
00:14:42,105 --> 00:14:43,995
You look in the news any
day, it's like layoffs.

316
00:14:43,995 --> 00:14:44,565
Layoffs.

317
00:14:44,865 --> 00:14:48,375
You know, we have AI agents that
are doing coding, so engineers who

318
00:14:48,375 --> 00:14:51,885
used to gather a huge paycheck are
just not being hired right now.

319
00:14:52,155 --> 00:14:52,425
Mm-hmm.

320
00:14:52,425 --> 00:14:56,595
Product managers like myself, like you
introduced chat GPT and you can kind of

321
00:14:56,595 --> 00:14:59,865
do the job pretty well with way fewer
people than you used to be able to.

322
00:14:59,865 --> 00:14:59,955
Mm-hmm.

323
00:15:00,495 --> 00:15:04,125
Same goes for graphic
designers, technical writers.

324
00:15:04,185 --> 00:15:08,685
The list goes on and people are being
laid off, left and right, and people

325
00:15:08,685 --> 00:15:10,455
are having a hard time finding jobs.

326
00:15:10,830 --> 00:15:14,310
Um, and so it spurred me to start
researching like, what, what has

327
00:15:14,310 --> 00:15:20,100
been the educational track of trade
work and knowledge work in the us?

328
00:15:20,100 --> 00:15:25,020
And I'll try to, I'll try to make
this very short, but it all started

329
00:15:25,020 --> 00:15:28,950
in 1917 in the US when, you know,
agriculture was really picking

330
00:15:28,950 --> 00:15:32,550
up kind of on the, you know, tail
end of the industrial revolution.

331
00:15:32,910 --> 00:15:36,450
And in Georgia there were two
senators, the state of Georgia, two

332
00:15:36,450 --> 00:15:41,550
senators who really saw a lot of
destitution in their area, you know,

333
00:15:41,550 --> 00:15:42,900
in the, going into the twenties.

334
00:15:43,290 --> 00:15:45,300
And they wanted to
bring in education work.

335
00:15:45,300 --> 00:15:51,870
So they had a, a federal mandate,
um, that states could buy into to

336
00:15:51,870 --> 00:15:54,630
bring in trade education, right?

337
00:15:54,630 --> 00:15:57,690
And this was mostly in the form
of agricultural trade at the time.

338
00:15:58,440 --> 00:15:59,490
And that act.

339
00:16:00,015 --> 00:16:01,964
Lasted all the way up through the sixties.

340
00:16:02,234 --> 00:16:07,604
So states got federal funding essentially
for building trade schools all across

341
00:16:07,604 --> 00:16:09,854
the us and it was relatively successful.

342
00:16:09,854 --> 00:16:12,765
There were different re-ups through the,
you know, the forties and the fifties

343
00:16:12,765 --> 00:16:18,255
post-war, post Korean War to kind
of, you know, arm the American public

344
00:16:18,405 --> 00:16:20,864
with skills that actually paid money.

345
00:16:20,984 --> 00:16:21,074
Mm-hmm.

346
00:16:21,314 --> 00:16:23,984
And at the time, with manufacturing,
just going through the roof, think of the

347
00:16:23,984 --> 00:16:29,324
car industry in Detroit, you know, just
all over the US It was very successful.

348
00:16:30,285 --> 00:16:33,045
And then into the sixties kind
of is where it hit its peak.

349
00:16:33,375 --> 00:16:37,125
If you were in the sixties in the US
and I did a lot of interviews for this

350
00:16:37,125 --> 00:16:43,484
book, almost every high school had
some either metal shop or wood shop

351
00:16:43,604 --> 00:16:45,584
where you could go and learn a trade.

352
00:16:45,915 --> 00:16:49,545
And many people ultimately either
went into the trades or at minimum.

353
00:16:50,295 --> 00:16:53,925
Had some knowledge of
how manufacturing worked.

354
00:16:54,105 --> 00:16:56,445
Like even if somebody did go to
college and didn't go into the

355
00:16:56,445 --> 00:16:59,295
trade, they understood how you
slap two pieces of metal together.

356
00:16:59,505 --> 00:17:02,895
They understood how to, you know,
change their oil in their car.

357
00:17:03,015 --> 00:17:06,255
They understood woodworking so they
could do some work on their home

358
00:17:06,255 --> 00:17:07,484
that they could afford at the time.

359
00:17:07,630 --> 00:17:07,920
Yeah.

360
00:17:08,984 --> 00:17:12,915
And that trajectory kept going
all the way up until the eighties.

361
00:17:13,454 --> 00:17:18,915
And in the eighties there was a paper
called, I'm, I'm gonna blank on it

362
00:17:18,915 --> 00:17:21,915
right now, even though I just wrote a
book on it, but it was something around

363
00:17:21,915 --> 00:17:23,685
like, the national reform of education.

364
00:17:23,954 --> 00:17:24,165
Sure.

365
00:17:24,224 --> 00:17:26,415
Um, you pick up the book on, yeah, yeah.

366
00:17:26,474 --> 00:17:30,405
Cardio Tuesday if you really
wanna find the actual, uh, paper.

367
00:17:30,795 --> 00:17:34,515
But it was pretty much saying if
we're gonna compete with China at the

368
00:17:34,515 --> 00:17:38,685
time, um, we need to focus on STEM
education, you know, the science,

369
00:17:38,685 --> 00:17:40,215
technology, engineering and math.

370
00:17:40,605 --> 00:17:45,015
Um, on the surface, not a bad paper.

371
00:17:45,585 --> 00:17:50,745
But what happened is a lot of the funding
that was going into that original federal

372
00:17:50,745 --> 00:17:58,095
grants for, um, trade education all
almost immediately got diverted to stem.

373
00:17:58,695 --> 00:17:58,905
Hmm.

374
00:17:58,905 --> 00:17:59,145
So, you

375
00:17:59,145 --> 00:18:04,575
know, I'm an eighties baby, so I grew up
in the early nineties and I never, no, no

376
00:18:04,580 --> 00:18:06,315
school I ever went to, had a trade shop.

377
00:18:06,645 --> 00:18:10,545
So it was that like early, mid
eighties when all the funding got

378
00:18:10,545 --> 00:18:13,635
rerouted from trades to technology.

379
00:18:13,815 --> 00:18:16,245
So I had a computer lab in
the early nineties in my

380
00:18:16,245 --> 00:18:17,565
school learning how to type.

381
00:18:17,895 --> 00:18:25,605
And pretty much from that point on, say
late eighties, early nineties, the stance

382
00:18:25,605 --> 00:18:28,695
in America was higher education or bust.

383
00:18:28,935 --> 00:18:29,205
Hmm.

384
00:18:29,205 --> 00:18:31,815
It was, you need to learn technology.

385
00:18:32,475 --> 00:18:35,175
Trades are kind of a lesser
than pursuit at this time.

386
00:18:35,175 --> 00:18:37,815
We need knowledge workers,
was kind of the terminology.

387
00:18:37,815 --> 00:18:39,045
We need people to go and learn.

388
00:18:39,285 --> 00:18:42,165
Philosophy, political science,
it doesn't matter what you go to

389
00:18:42,165 --> 00:18:45,705
college for, you go and you will
come out on the other end with a high

390
00:18:45,705 --> 00:18:49,125
paying job and it'll all be good.

391
00:18:49,575 --> 00:18:50,775
You take on the debt, it doesn't matter.

392
00:18:50,775 --> 00:18:51,825
You'll pay it off quickly.

393
00:18:52,425 --> 00:18:56,265
And then of course, fast forward to
my generation finally getting outta

394
00:18:56,265 --> 00:19:01,845
school, right in the recession of
2007, 2008, there's no jobs to be had,

395
00:19:02,355 --> 00:19:02,655
right?

396
00:19:02,655 --> 00:19:02,865
That's

397
00:19:02,865 --> 00:19:04,095
higher than it's ever been.

398
00:19:04,365 --> 00:19:07,125
And then it's never really
recovered from there.

399
00:19:07,515 --> 00:19:12,945
And it's just been, you know, we have
a generation of skill list people.

400
00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:20,250
Well, and so you worked in the AI
industry and we're looking at AI and

401
00:19:20,250 --> 00:19:25,200
how that's being integrated with, uh,
in the workforce, how people are losing

402
00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:30,900
their jobs, how one AI agent can easily
replace a whole team of, uh, individuals.

403
00:19:31,170 --> 00:19:35,220
Maybe not to the same degree of what
everyone can do, but when a cost benefit

404
00:19:35,220 --> 00:19:37,020
analysis is done, they're like, ah, okay.

405
00:19:37,020 --> 00:19:40,230
Giving up a little bit because in a couple
years, a, it is gonna be even better.

406
00:19:40,230 --> 00:19:40,560
Right?

407
00:19:41,220 --> 00:19:48,060
Um, a a lot of these technology
sort of things are, are disposable.

408
00:19:48,090 --> 00:19:51,150
Like when I grew up, I was
learning about computers as well.

409
00:19:51,150 --> 00:19:53,160
I was born, what, 78.

410
00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:57,810
So, grew up in the eighties and started
seeing the computers go in the classroom.

411
00:19:58,350 --> 00:20:04,950
I learned little c plus plus little basic,
just so I can hack away at the nibbles

412
00:20:04,950 --> 00:20:07,560
game and, uh, get the high score, right?

413
00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:10,320
Just, just the bare minimum amount, but.

414
00:20:10,515 --> 00:20:14,475
Uh, those were kind of building blocks
for later things, but if I were to

415
00:20:14,475 --> 00:20:16,965
get into any sort of programming
now, I'd be completely lost.

416
00:20:16,965 --> 00:20:17,895
It's completely different.

417
00:20:17,895 --> 00:20:18,015
No, you

418
00:20:18,015 --> 00:20:20,445
wouldn't because now
AI will do it for you.

419
00:20:20,445 --> 00:20:23,355
You can do what they're
calling vibe coding right now.

420
00:20:23,355 --> 00:20:23,985
You can get now.

421
00:20:23,985 --> 00:20:25,305
This is the time to get back into it.

422
00:20:26,775 --> 00:20:30,735
Well, I guess what I'm looking at
is there are some fundamental things

423
00:20:30,735 --> 00:20:34,275
that I think people should have under
their belt and maybe having, uh,

424
00:20:34,635 --> 00:20:39,735
logic, reasoning, rhetoric, uh, math
basic, like, I don't know, like your

425
00:20:39,735 --> 00:20:41,145
computers can do your math for you.

426
00:20:41,145 --> 00:20:42,975
AI can now do your logic for you, right?

427
00:20:42,975 --> 00:20:44,445
Like there's all these
different things, but.

428
00:20:44,835 --> 00:20:51,375
Um, rules that you can comport yourself
by or you can hold other things too.

429
00:20:51,645 --> 00:20:52,755
If this, then that.

430
00:20:52,755 --> 00:20:57,855
Does this make sense for my
own personal, uh, usage case?

431
00:20:58,365 --> 00:21:00,855
Would it make sense for me
to use AI in this Yes or no?

432
00:21:00,855 --> 00:21:04,935
Based on what, um, I think those
sort of skills are gonna be like

433
00:21:04,935 --> 00:21:08,445
longer term kind of hard skills, like
this traditional things when you're

434
00:21:08,445 --> 00:21:11,265
talking about how do you stick two
pieces of metal together Now, whether

435
00:21:11,265 --> 00:21:12,915
it's a computer doing it mm-hmm.

436
00:21:13,215 --> 00:21:17,865
A machine, you have to understand that
different metals melt at different

437
00:21:17,865 --> 00:21:21,885
rates and they'll oxidize differently
and they can join differently.

438
00:21:21,885 --> 00:21:24,945
And, but if you have that basic
understanding, in the same way that I have

439
00:21:24,945 --> 00:21:30,105
a basic understanding of c plus plus and
basic, I understand a little bit about

440
00:21:30,105 --> 00:21:33,825
how computer program and I can kinda hack
my way around these different things.

441
00:21:34,215 --> 00:21:38,236
I, I think there's a strong case
to be made for having, uh, an.

442
00:21:39,345 --> 00:21:41,025
Overall, what do they call that?

443
00:21:41,025 --> 00:21:45,675
Renaissance man, kind of a, uh, uh,
understanding of how things work.

444
00:21:45,975 --> 00:21:46,575
Um,

445
00:21:47,445 --> 00:21:51,945
well, you, you just named one of
the titles of a chapter in the book.

446
00:21:52,125 --> 00:21:52,455
Right.

447
00:21:52,460 --> 00:21:54,135
Like that modern Renaissance man.

448
00:21:54,135 --> 00:21:59,385
And I think, well, one of the things I
put forward in the book, really towards

449
00:21:59,385 --> 00:22:05,445
the end is a, a touch on what you're
just saying is a real general education.

450
00:22:05,475 --> 00:22:08,925
When I went through college, I was
getting a general education degree.

451
00:22:09,285 --> 00:22:13,845
That general education degree
comprised of some political science

452
00:22:13,845 --> 00:22:19,125
courses, some humanities, a little
bit of math and languages, right?

453
00:22:19,125 --> 00:22:23,265
Mm. That was a general education
that is not a general education,

454
00:22:24,195 --> 00:22:25,785
that is a specific education.

455
00:22:26,625 --> 00:22:30,585
Mm. And one that doesn't necessarily,
in our society today lend itself

456
00:22:30,585 --> 00:22:32,235
towards a good paying job.

457
00:22:33,105 --> 00:22:35,535
So the argument I'd like
to make and put forth.

458
00:22:36,330 --> 00:22:38,400
We need to get back to
true general education.

459
00:22:38,730 --> 00:22:43,590
You know, at the peak in the sixties
when, you know, college bound

460
00:22:43,590 --> 00:22:47,610
individuals were increasing, but
there was still the demand for, you

461
00:22:47,610 --> 00:22:49,470
know, trades education in high school.

462
00:22:49,470 --> 00:22:51,390
Whether you ended up
going to trades or not.

463
00:22:51,570 --> 00:22:55,140
It was probably the peak in the US
of like actual general education.

464
00:22:55,260 --> 00:22:57,750
It was, you know, you gotta learn it all.

465
00:22:57,870 --> 00:23:00,120
You know, you have your home ec
class, you've got your wood class,

466
00:23:00,120 --> 00:23:03,780
you've got your shop class, and
then you still have your math, your

467
00:23:03,780 --> 00:23:06,180
science languages, all of that.

468
00:23:06,450 --> 00:23:10,290
And I think that's where we got lost
going into the eighties and nineties

469
00:23:10,290 --> 00:23:12,600
was, it was now all humanities.

470
00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:15,090
Like, that's all you need to
learn is like STEM and humanities.

471
00:23:15,540 --> 00:23:17,100
Everything else is lesser than.

472
00:23:17,100 --> 00:23:21,510
So I think it's like that full circle
approach of, you know, we're gonna be in

473
00:23:21,510 --> 00:23:27,270
some dire straits pretty soon and we can
talk about the economics, uh, behind the

474
00:23:27,270 --> 00:23:29,280
lack of tradesmen and women out there.

475
00:23:29,925 --> 00:23:32,175
But we need to get back
to general education.

476
00:23:32,175 --> 00:23:37,545
You know, we need welders who can recite
K and Shakespeare as much as we need,

477
00:23:37,725 --> 00:23:44,145
you know, people who can, you know,
write PhD level dissertations on some

478
00:23:44,205 --> 00:23:47,325
algorithm that can also swing a hammer.

479
00:23:47,805 --> 00:23:48,015
Mm-hmm.

480
00:23:48,915 --> 00:23:49,275
Yeah.

481
00:23:49,275 --> 00:23:53,205
I, I, I think having that basic
practical skill base is important

482
00:23:53,205 --> 00:23:57,975
because the, uh, the ins and outs,
the real technical things, AI is

483
00:23:57,975 --> 00:23:59,415
starting to pick up the slack on that.

484
00:23:59,655 --> 00:24:01,425
Like, and I got a couple examples.

485
00:24:01,425 --> 00:24:03,915
So I've got a, an old pinball machine.

486
00:24:03,945 --> 00:24:07,845
It's, it's got no electronics
in it, so to speak.

487
00:24:07,845 --> 00:24:09,195
It's just, it's all wired in.

488
00:24:09,195 --> 00:24:11,205
And, and it wasn't working for me.

489
00:24:11,265 --> 00:24:12,435
And I'm like, what's going on?

490
00:24:12,435 --> 00:24:13,035
I don't know.

491
00:24:13,155 --> 00:24:14,175
How do I figure this out?

492
00:24:14,175 --> 00:24:16,515
Well, I got these schematics
and I can't really read them.

493
00:24:16,515 --> 00:24:20,835
They're so tiny, and like I could if
I wanted to, but the A DHD kicks in,

494
00:24:20,835 --> 00:24:22,275
it's just like, it's overwhelming.

495
00:24:22,275 --> 00:24:23,835
Like, I'd, I'd rather.

496
00:24:24,345 --> 00:24:27,915
I'd rather take the time and go
through every little wire on this

497
00:24:27,915 --> 00:24:30,705
thing than look at the schematic
and try and wire it out that way.

498
00:24:31,035 --> 00:24:34,425
But if I take a picture of the schematic
and then I took a picture of the inside

499
00:24:34,425 --> 00:24:38,775
of the pinball machine, ai AI's like, oh,
here's what you gotta do step by step.

500
00:24:38,775 --> 00:24:41,355
And I put the thing on speaker
phone and I'm like, okay,

501
00:24:41,595 --> 00:24:43,215
talk to me like I'm stupid.

502
00:24:43,215 --> 00:24:43,425
Right?

503
00:24:43,425 --> 00:24:46,755
To explain it to me like I'm five
years old, what's my next step?

504
00:24:46,755 --> 00:24:49,515
And I worked through piece by
piece until I could figure it out.

505
00:24:49,515 --> 00:24:50,985
It helped that I know how to solder.

506
00:24:50,985 --> 00:24:52,875
It helps that I know
how to use a multimeter.

507
00:24:52,875 --> 00:24:57,345
And if it's too fancy, then I can
ask AI how to interpret the readings.

508
00:24:57,915 --> 00:25:02,865
But there's, I, there needs to
be a fundamental skillset to

509
00:25:02,865 --> 00:25:04,965
be able to at least start that.

510
00:25:05,205 --> 00:25:07,755
And in the same way, like our
air conditioning stopped working.

511
00:25:08,235 --> 00:25:14,175
I call in, buddy of mine, his family owns
a, uh, uh, plumbing heating HVAC company.

512
00:25:14,175 --> 00:25:17,865
And they said, Hey, I mean, if I'm gonna
hire anyone, I'm gonna hire a friend.

513
00:25:17,865 --> 00:25:18,465
Come on by.

514
00:25:18,465 --> 00:25:18,735
Right?

515
00:25:18,765 --> 00:25:22,185
So, uh, and they send, one of their
technicians by technician looks at it and

516
00:25:22,455 --> 00:25:26,415
says, well, I'm not sure it comes back
a second time, does some stuff to it.

517
00:25:26,415 --> 00:25:29,205
And so after the second time,
I'm like, all right, I'm gonna

518
00:25:29,205 --> 00:25:30,465
take a crack at this myself.

519
00:25:30,465 --> 00:25:34,305
Get AI on there, have it, put
me through the whole process.

520
00:25:34,335 --> 00:25:37,605
And okay, so there's some free on
recovery and a couple other things

521
00:25:37,605 --> 00:25:40,845
that you're supposed to have a,
a tech there for to do properly.

522
00:25:40,845 --> 00:25:48,105
So anyways, what that technician
would've really benefited from was the

523
00:25:48,105 --> 00:25:50,175
ability to understand how AI works.

524
00:25:50,205 --> 00:25:50,295
Mm-hmm.

525
00:25:50,535 --> 00:25:54,555
Because they would've been able to
fast track this, this whole process.

526
00:25:54,735 --> 00:25:57,585
And what I could benefit from
is some of the specialized

527
00:25:57,585 --> 00:25:59,145
tools that this technician has.

528
00:25:59,145 --> 00:26:04,275
And, uh, so there is this marrying of
ideas that I think is really important.

529
00:26:04,755 --> 00:26:05,385
Um.

530
00:26:06,150 --> 00:26:08,820
Until AI dies or, or takes
over the world, I guess.

531
00:26:09,120 --> 00:26:09,300
Yeah.

532
00:26:09,305 --> 00:26:11,910
I, I think of it as like
a Venn diagram, right?

533
00:26:11,910 --> 00:26:14,310
Like there's that overlap.

534
00:26:14,310 --> 00:26:19,500
Like I think a lot of people who
are gonna see success in the next

535
00:26:19,500 --> 00:26:23,760
10 years, if you think about whether
that's financially or in business,

536
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:30,930
are people who are, have a strong base
in whatever their expertise may be.

537
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:36,210
Or they are a, a renaissance
man mentality where they know

538
00:26:36,210 --> 00:26:37,530
a little bit about everything.

539
00:26:37,710 --> 00:26:38,160
Mm-hmm.

540
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,650
And then you can augment it with ai.

541
00:26:40,860 --> 00:26:42,660
It's a great augmentation tool.

542
00:26:43,170 --> 00:26:46,290
Like it, it's a catch 22 where it
can really lead to brain, right?

543
00:26:46,290 --> 00:26:50,460
Where you don't ever feel you
need to learn core skills because

544
00:26:50,460 --> 00:26:53,430
you can rely on this to answer
questions for you, do things for you.

545
00:26:53,790 --> 00:26:58,380
But those who take the time to learn
core skills that aren't necessarily.

546
00:26:59,115 --> 00:27:01,335
Ai, like you said, the
ability to solder mm-hmm.

547
00:27:01,695 --> 00:27:05,925
The ability to understand just
general plumbing or HVAC things.

548
00:27:06,105 --> 00:27:06,225
Mm-hmm.

549
00:27:06,495 --> 00:27:06,645
And

550
00:27:06,645 --> 00:27:10,064
then you add AI on top of that, it can
really take you to that next level.

551
00:27:10,064 --> 00:27:11,294
And I think that's gonna be great.

552
00:27:11,294 --> 00:27:15,314
And in that Venn diagram of
people who know nothing about AI

553
00:27:15,345 --> 00:27:17,534
but are skilled in the trades.

554
00:27:17,774 --> 00:27:21,195
And then you have the other circle of
people who know nothing about trade

555
00:27:21,195 --> 00:27:25,304
work, but know a lot about ai, those
people who overlap, who have a little

556
00:27:25,304 --> 00:27:29,145
bit of both are gonna be the people
who really excel in whatever they

557
00:27:29,145 --> 00:27:31,814
do over the next 10, 15, 20 years.

558
00:27:31,814 --> 00:27:33,945
Whatever the horizon for
this actually looks like.

559
00:27:34,379 --> 00:27:35,205
I, I think so.

560
00:27:35,235 --> 00:27:35,955
I think you're right.

561
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:41,745
I, I think there is the natural,
uh, human reaction to having

562
00:27:41,745 --> 00:27:43,455
a navigator in your vehicle.

563
00:27:43,514 --> 00:27:43,605
Mm-hmm.

564
00:27:43,845 --> 00:27:43,875
Okay.

565
00:27:43,875 --> 00:27:44,895
Take a left here.

566
00:27:44,895 --> 00:27:46,125
Next set of lights, take a right.

567
00:27:46,125 --> 00:27:47,895
We're gonna go a couple of miles down.

568
00:27:48,945 --> 00:27:52,635
I can drive, I can operate the vehicle
person's giving me the directions

569
00:27:52,725 --> 00:27:54,284
and ask me, how do I get there again?

570
00:27:54,465 --> 00:27:57,735
Oh, well I, you know, I
think I remember right.

571
00:27:57,735 --> 00:27:59,625
Or maybe I don't, or I'm quick to forget.

572
00:28:00,135 --> 00:28:03,105
If I looked at the map and I
plotted it out myself, then,

573
00:28:03,135 --> 00:28:04,725
then it's gonna be more in there.

574
00:28:04,725 --> 00:28:08,625
And I think AI is kind of like that
navigator that we have that naturally

575
00:28:08,745 --> 00:28:10,665
people are just gonna kind of rely on it.

576
00:28:10,875 --> 00:28:15,465
And there probably should be another
step that if it's something they think

577
00:28:15,465 --> 00:28:19,635
they're gonna ever have to do again,
spend a bit more time with maybe with AI

578
00:28:19,635 --> 00:28:22,725
and say, okay, how will I remember this?

579
00:28:22,725 --> 00:28:23,925
Gimme some pneumonics.

580
00:28:23,925 --> 00:28:24,645
Help teach me.

581
00:28:24,645 --> 00:28:28,004
So this is something that, what are the
most important parts that I should know?

582
00:28:28,004 --> 00:28:29,685
So I can, I can work forward with?

583
00:28:30,105 --> 00:28:31,004
Yeah, I think that's right.

584
00:28:31,004 --> 00:28:33,794
And like the argument in the book
is, if you're thinking of the Venn

585
00:28:33,794 --> 00:28:38,774
diagram, it would be talking to those
knowledge workers, the people who

586
00:28:38,774 --> 00:28:43,215
have not swung a hammer, who have
had their career in a space that is.

587
00:28:43,605 --> 00:28:46,725
You know, maybe not AI driven, but
largely something that could be replaced

588
00:28:46,725 --> 00:28:50,565
by AI easily back to the middle, to
that Venn diagram to say, you know,

589
00:28:50,565 --> 00:28:54,135
should learn skills and augment it
with all the stuff, you know, all the

590
00:28:54,135 --> 00:28:57,885
stuff you got through your college
education, all that good stuff.

591
00:28:57,885 --> 00:29:01,785
And to, to stay competitive because
the other ends of, I think both sides

592
00:29:01,785 --> 00:29:04,635
of those Venn diagram are at risk.

593
00:29:04,635 --> 00:29:04,935
Right?

594
00:29:05,235 --> 00:29:05,835
Mm. Um,

595
00:29:07,065 --> 00:29:11,925
so I, I've, you know, I got my gut feeling
as, I think I know where this is gonna

596
00:29:11,925 --> 00:29:13,785
go, but I'm gonna throw it out anyways.

597
00:29:13,785 --> 00:29:21,825
I want to ask, um, how much did you use
AI for researching and maybe, uh, spell

598
00:29:21,825 --> 00:29:24,165
checking, editing, whatever the trade gap?

599
00:29:24,975 --> 00:29:25,785
Almost zero.

600
00:29:26,025 --> 00:29:27,255
Actually zero.

601
00:29:27,255 --> 00:29:29,415
Like I, I'm a purist in that regard.

602
00:29:29,625 --> 00:29:31,905
You know, it, it's, I saw
something the other day.

603
00:29:33,585 --> 00:29:37,065
In relation to ai, where it
says everybody now is an artist,

604
00:29:37,065 --> 00:29:39,284
everybody now is an author.

605
00:29:39,615 --> 00:29:39,705
Mm-hmm.

606
00:29:39,945 --> 00:29:41,774
Um, and it's very easy to leverage it.

607
00:29:41,835 --> 00:29:44,774
But as you know, I've written
several books even outside of

608
00:29:44,774 --> 00:29:46,215
the Turn or Turning Ferrell.

609
00:29:46,544 --> 00:29:49,305
Um, and for me it's a mental escape.

610
00:29:49,455 --> 00:29:56,835
Like I, I self-admittedly, I believe
that I am struggling right now with

611
00:29:56,835 --> 00:30:01,185
brain rot from both social media and ai.

612
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:01,620
Mm-hmm.

613
00:30:01,705 --> 00:30:02,745
It is so easy.

614
00:30:02,745 --> 00:30:07,305
Like my daughter yesterday,
she brought in a wasp.

615
00:30:07,365 --> 00:30:09,945
It was a dead wasp, but it
was gnarly Looking here in

616
00:30:09,945 --> 00:30:11,115
Idaho, I'm like, what is that?

617
00:30:11,565 --> 00:30:16,635
Um, in the past I might've like
taken time to describe this

618
00:30:16,635 --> 00:30:20,385
wasp to Google or something that
was non-AI driven at the time.

619
00:30:20,385 --> 00:30:20,475
Mm-hmm.

620
00:30:20,540 --> 00:30:23,264
Like, hey, there's a wasp
roughly one inch long.

621
00:30:23,264 --> 00:30:26,475
It's got like tan and red bands around.

622
00:30:26,475 --> 00:30:29,565
It's thax, you know, it's
got medium-sized antennas.

623
00:30:30,180 --> 00:30:32,430
Uh, found in Boise,
Idaho, what would this be?

624
00:30:32,550 --> 00:30:35,910
And it might give me a list and you can
narrow it down and start to do research.

625
00:30:36,780 --> 00:30:42,180
I literally took my phone out, took
a picture of it, and I got like a

626
00:30:42,180 --> 00:30:47,460
dictionary back on what this bug
was, what it eats, all of that.

627
00:30:47,490 --> 00:30:50,040
Turns out to be non-aggressive, by the
way, though it looked very aggressive.

628
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:52,200
Um, yeah, sounds like it.

629
00:30:52,260 --> 00:30:53,580
It was a cicada killer.

630
00:30:53,850 --> 00:30:54,960
Um, wasp.

631
00:30:55,530 --> 00:30:57,510
I didn't even know we had
cicadas here in Idaho, but we do.

632
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:03,450
And it was just, it took two seconds,
but then I never absorbed anything.

633
00:31:03,750 --> 00:31:06,450
Like I, I've been thinking on it,
you know, as an example, so maybe

634
00:31:06,450 --> 00:31:10,560
I thought a little more, but it
was that like I took a picture, it

635
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:12,870
gave me the result, and I moved on.

636
00:31:13,650 --> 00:31:13,920
Yeah.

637
00:31:14,130 --> 00:31:17,550
If I saw that same thing out in
the wild again, I wouldn't be

638
00:31:17,550 --> 00:31:18,840
like, oh, that's a cicada killer.

639
00:31:18,990 --> 00:31:21,570
I'd have to pull my phone out again
and be like, what was that thing again?

640
00:31:22,050 --> 00:31:23,910
Oh yeah, let me just take another picture.

641
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:26,100
So I struggled with that brain rot.

642
00:31:26,460 --> 00:31:29,070
You add in the social media
aspects of just like the.

643
00:31:31,340 --> 00:31:33,525
It is hard to get away from
like mindless scrolling.

644
00:31:33,585 --> 00:31:35,715
And I try to be conscious
about it and I'll find it.

645
00:31:35,715 --> 00:31:39,195
My wife and I go on intermittent breaks
because we'll just find ourselves like

646
00:31:39,795 --> 00:31:41,745
on the loo or whatever, just scrolling.

647
00:31:41,745 --> 00:31:44,745
And then you're like, 30 minutes goes by
and you're like, what am I looking at?

648
00:31:45,075 --> 00:31:45,375
Yeah.

649
00:31:45,735 --> 00:31:48,645
And I think that coupling is
just sending us down this path

650
00:31:48,645 --> 00:31:51,525
of, you know, true brain rot.

651
00:31:52,215 --> 00:31:55,725
And for me, the writing
aspect is my escape from that.

652
00:31:55,725 --> 00:31:57,885
Like when I write, I get up
in the morning and I write, I

653
00:31:57,885 --> 00:32:00,765
write my words out of my brain.

654
00:32:01,185 --> 00:32:04,545
And when I look at this book,
especially, like there's a lot of AI

655
00:32:04,545 --> 00:32:07,425
slop out there, there's more books
than there's ever been in the world.

656
00:32:07,460 --> 00:32:07,680
Mm.

657
00:32:07,900 --> 00:32:11,295
But you know, whether people say,
believe it or not, and that's the

658
00:32:11,295 --> 00:32:13,455
hard part is people are gonna be
like, well, maybe you just used day

659
00:32:13,455 --> 00:32:14,715
I to write it, blah, blah, blah.

660
00:32:15,075 --> 00:32:20,745
I didn't, I can look myself in the mirror
and know I wrote all 34,000, 40,000 words.

661
00:32:21,105 --> 00:32:25,785
Sitting at my desk in the morning hacking
it away, and then using fantastic human

662
00:32:25,785 --> 00:32:29,925
editors to help me refine it and get
it out the door and get it packed in

663
00:32:29,925 --> 00:32:31,365
a way that's hopefully meaningful.

664
00:32:31,995 --> 00:32:35,235
So zero is exactly what I think
it figured you'd come back with.

665
00:32:35,355 --> 00:32:35,505
Yeah.

666
00:32:35,505 --> 00:32:37,005
So my gut was right on that.

667
00:32:37,005 --> 00:32:37,095
Well,

668
00:32:37,095 --> 00:32:40,725
it's not zero 'cause I did have it
shop around some title stuff for me.

669
00:32:40,725 --> 00:32:40,755
Okay.

670
00:32:40,875 --> 00:32:43,995
I ended up going with the title
that I had originally, uh,

671
00:32:44,625 --> 00:32:46,185
come up with a long time ago.

672
00:32:46,485 --> 00:32:50,025
But I did like, I was like, let's
play with chat GPT, like, you know,

673
00:32:50,085 --> 00:32:51,615
here's the context for the book.

674
00:32:51,615 --> 00:32:52,935
Here's the title I have.

675
00:32:53,145 --> 00:32:55,725
And it gave me some other ones
that I wasn't too jazzed about.

676
00:32:55,755 --> 00:32:56,145
So.

677
00:32:56,970 --> 00:32:59,100
You know, some friends of
mine are putting a book out.

678
00:32:59,250 --> 00:33:00,480
It's an amazing book.

679
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:04,530
The, uh, they both have
exceptional backgrounds.

680
00:33:04,530 --> 00:33:10,860
They are in the top, less than
one percentile of what they do in,

681
00:33:10,950 --> 00:33:13,710
in the world, uh, amazing book.

682
00:33:13,710 --> 00:33:17,070
But they sat down a few years ago and
they spoke it all out into tape recorders.

683
00:33:17,070 --> 00:33:18,300
They got it transcribed.

684
00:33:18,300 --> 00:33:18,660
They mm-hmm.

685
00:33:18,810 --> 00:33:21,030
They're trying to put it together and
then it gets shelved, and then they're

686
00:33:21,030 --> 00:33:24,000
trying it again, and it gets shelved
because they're not writers, right.

687
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:25,650
That's not, that's not what they do.

688
00:33:25,650 --> 00:33:30,840
And so they ended up utilizing AI in
the large learned LLMI guess they call

689
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:34,020
it, to, to help tie it all together.

690
00:33:34,050 --> 00:33:35,460
And it was really useful.

691
00:33:35,460 --> 00:33:36,270
It hasn't come out yet.

692
00:33:36,270 --> 00:33:37,290
It's gonna come out in a bit.

693
00:33:38,010 --> 00:33:40,950
Um, I don't know if I'm allowed to talk
about it yet, so I'll just talk about

694
00:33:40,950 --> 00:33:44,580
it in the, uh, a bit more nebulous.

695
00:33:44,580 --> 00:33:44,850
Yep.

696
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:45,360
Um.

697
00:33:45,764 --> 00:33:46,754
But it does a great job.

698
00:33:46,754 --> 00:33:48,465
It references things back and forth.

699
00:33:48,495 --> 00:33:48,555
Yeah.

700
00:33:48,555 --> 00:33:50,985
It says like, we talk about this,
and then you'll see it over here.

701
00:33:50,985 --> 00:33:56,055
But it also does other things in there
like, uh, contrast phrasing and m dashes

702
00:33:56,055 --> 00:33:59,985
and all these indicators, which sound
really cool the first time you see it.

703
00:34:00,285 --> 00:34:04,665
But once you get a little bit of AI
fatigue, you're gonna be like, this looks

704
00:34:04,665 --> 00:34:06,254
like ai, AI had written at this thing.

705
00:34:06,315 --> 00:34:11,505
And you know, I, I did
some videos a while back.

706
00:34:11,505 --> 00:34:14,264
We had one of our instructors,
and it's a government video that

707
00:34:14,264 --> 00:34:18,735
we're doing, and he was wearing
this goofy, um, paracord bracelet.

708
00:34:18,855 --> 00:34:18,945
Mm-hmm.

709
00:34:19,185 --> 00:34:20,925
Because he thought it was the
coolest thing of the world.

710
00:34:20,925 --> 00:34:23,445
Like if you get captured, you
could escape with this para court.

711
00:34:23,445 --> 00:34:24,585
Like all these goofy things.

712
00:34:24,585 --> 00:34:24,795
Right.

713
00:34:25,424 --> 00:34:27,254
The cartoon that they have.

714
00:34:27,254 --> 00:34:29,774
This guy's imagining, oh,
I can catch fish with it.

715
00:34:29,774 --> 00:34:31,094
I could use it as fire starter.

716
00:34:31,094 --> 00:34:34,154
And the reality is his friends are like,
oh, so you're wearing a bracelet now.

717
00:34:34,154 --> 00:34:34,424
Hey.

718
00:34:35,685 --> 00:34:38,895
But uh, but he, as soon as it
was done, he's like, I wish

719
00:34:38,895 --> 00:34:39,884
I didn't wear that bracelet.

720
00:34:40,154 --> 00:34:44,834
It, it totally, uh, ages this, it
puts me in a different category.

721
00:34:44,834 --> 00:34:47,534
And I look at AI like a paraquat bracelet.

722
00:34:47,534 --> 00:34:47,625
Mm-hmm.

723
00:34:47,864 --> 00:34:52,304
When people are looking at this, they're
gonna quickly dismiss the value that

724
00:34:52,304 --> 00:34:56,355
these people have in the book because
they, oh, it's just an AI thing.

725
00:34:56,355 --> 00:35:00,314
And no, the concepts aren't ai, it was
put together by ai, but all the concepts

726
00:35:00,314 --> 00:35:03,645
and all this stuff inside there, and I.

727
00:35:04,050 --> 00:35:09,810
I, I get it from your side for the
therapeutic thing, but I also get

728
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,300
the outside perspective looking in.

729
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:12,690
Yeah.

730
00:35:12,690 --> 00:35:16,290
That people will judge
you based on the AI thing.

731
00:35:16,410 --> 00:35:19,860
And I, I don't want to, yeah, too
long here, but I'll give a, a silly

732
00:35:19,860 --> 00:35:21,840
story, sort of self-deprecating.

733
00:35:22,500 --> 00:35:25,770
So, uh, there's a guy, some of our
listeners may have heard of him.

734
00:35:25,770 --> 00:35:27,210
His name's George St. Pierre.

735
00:35:27,210 --> 00:35:32,880
He is done a little bit of fighting
in the UFC and anyways, um, got

736
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:34,440
a few followers on Instagram.

737
00:35:34,590 --> 00:35:35,730
He's gotten into hunting.

738
00:35:35,730 --> 00:35:38,100
I thought, you know, I'd love
to chat with him on the podcast.

739
00:35:38,100 --> 00:35:38,881
So I reach out to him.

740
00:35:39,285 --> 00:35:42,405
And I talk a couple times,
I don't hear anything back.

741
00:35:42,705 --> 00:35:46,095
And I'm like, well, you know, he is got
about 5 million people that follow him.

742
00:35:46,305 --> 00:35:51,285
So I get on AI and I'm like, alright,
I spend 20 minutes, half an hour, like

743
00:35:51,285 --> 00:35:54,735
five o'clock in the morning and I'm
just going through back and forth.

744
00:35:55,185 --> 00:35:58,845
What's his psychology like, what's
is this like, what's like, what

745
00:35:58,845 --> 00:36:00,735
would get him to want to respond?

746
00:36:00,735 --> 00:36:03,945
Because I think there would be a lot
of value for the listeners, I think.

747
00:36:04,185 --> 00:36:06,015
I'm hoping I could
bring some value to him.

748
00:36:06,075 --> 00:36:06,435
Right?

749
00:36:06,855 --> 00:36:11,475
Anyways, hammer wrote this really
nice AI thing and I send out on over

750
00:36:11,475 --> 00:36:14,805
and I'm feeling happy with myself
because I put so much work into this.

751
00:36:14,805 --> 00:36:17,475
And then I get back into AI
and I, I'm like, you know,

752
00:36:17,475 --> 00:36:18,975
he's got 5 million followers.

753
00:36:18,975 --> 00:36:25,425
What if, um, what if he just doesn't
read my DM here and I wanna put an email

754
00:36:25,425 --> 00:36:27,195
together of the same thread, right?

755
00:36:27,255 --> 00:36:30,675
And I'll, uh, figure I'll send him
an email in the same kind of way.

756
00:36:30,675 --> 00:36:32,175
And so I type that into ai.

757
00:36:32,205 --> 00:36:33,045
Press go.

758
00:36:33,855 --> 00:36:35,265
How come I'm not getting anything back?

759
00:36:35,325 --> 00:36:35,895
Oh wait.

760
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:37,500
That wasn't ai.

761
00:36:37,830 --> 00:36:45,720
I DMed that over to GSPI DMed my AI
request to GSP, and so then my blind

762
00:36:45,720 --> 00:36:50,430
panic at five o'clock in the morning,
I am, uh, how I don't, I'm not social

763
00:36:50,430 --> 00:36:52,980
media savvy, like, how do I unsend this?

764
00:36:52,980 --> 00:36:54,240
Oh, this thing says delete.

765
00:36:54,240 --> 00:36:56,939
And I, before reading the
whole thing, A DHD kicks in.

766
00:36:56,939 --> 00:37:01,620
I guess it says delete, I think it
said delete for you or delete for user.

767
00:37:01,620 --> 00:37:05,640
So I deleted it and now
I can't unsend it now.

768
00:37:05,730 --> 00:37:09,779
So anyways, I had to send them over
this very highly personal one because

769
00:37:09,899 --> 00:37:12,029
what I thought I was doing great.

770
00:37:12,029 --> 00:37:14,459
The second that there is
lights on on it mm-hmm.

771
00:37:15,089 --> 00:37:17,430
That somebody else from the
outside might see me using it.

772
00:37:17,430 --> 00:37:18,180
I'm like, wait a minute.

773
00:37:18,180 --> 00:37:18,899
He's gonna look at it.

774
00:37:18,899 --> 00:37:19,950
It's like I'm being lazy.

775
00:37:20,189 --> 00:37:22,589
Like I wasn't lazy, but that's
how everyone's gonna view it.

776
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:27,060
Yeah, I, well that's a pretty funny story
and I think you should have George St.

777
00:37:27,060 --> 00:37:28,319
Pierre on, that'd be a great guess.

778
00:37:30,359 --> 00:37:30,990
He's listening.

779
00:37:31,695 --> 00:37:32,025
Come on.

780
00:37:32,055 --> 00:37:32,625
Oh, yes,

781
00:37:33,075 --> 00:37:33,315
yes.

782
00:37:33,315 --> 00:37:34,635
I'm sure he is tuned in right now.

783
00:37:34,875 --> 00:37:35,265
Oh yeah.

784
00:37:35,505 --> 00:37:40,005
But yeah, to your point, it's
a, we're in the wild west of it.

785
00:37:40,005 --> 00:37:40,815
It's so hard to tell.

786
00:37:40,815 --> 00:37:44,715
But like you said, like I've
always used M dashes in my writing.

787
00:37:45,105 --> 00:37:46,125
You can't use them anymore.

788
00:37:46,305 --> 00:37:48,165
That's become like the tell, right?

789
00:37:48,225 --> 00:37:48,345
Yeah.

790
00:37:48,465 --> 00:37:51,825
On LinkedIn and other, you know,
stuff like, oh, that must be

791
00:37:51,825 --> 00:37:53,415
AI slop because it's got that.

792
00:37:53,415 --> 00:37:55,275
So I've been a little butt hurt all over.

793
00:37:55,425 --> 00:37:55,845
Yeah.

794
00:37:55,905 --> 00:37:59,205
The use of M dashes and
uh, ai, but you're right.

795
00:37:59,655 --> 00:38:03,315
But it's also hard to become
discerning about it, right.

796
00:38:03,615 --> 00:38:10,005
You might read, like if Jack Carrack was
writing right now, you would read this

797
00:38:10,005 --> 00:38:14,475
beautiful prose from him and you would
guess like, did he really write that?

798
00:38:14,955 --> 00:38:15,255
Mm-hmm.

799
00:38:16,905 --> 00:38:19,635
Because you could take, you know, it
was interesting, like I played around

800
00:38:19,635 --> 00:38:26,385
with this too, you know, I've uploaded
some of my writing to chat GPT.

801
00:38:26,385 --> 00:38:26,835
Mm-hmm.

802
00:38:27,195 --> 00:38:28,270
And if I get.

803
00:38:29,910 --> 00:38:30,750
To write an email.

804
00:38:30,750 --> 00:38:33,600
I've done the thing like, Hey, write
this in the style that I would say,

805
00:38:33,839 --> 00:38:34,319
right.

806
00:38:34,705 --> 00:38:41,160
You know, you can modify it to be kind of,
for you to maybe mask some of that, uh,

807
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:46,919
ai, I'm trying to think of the right word.

808
00:38:46,919 --> 00:38:48,690
It's just like, uh, stigma.

809
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:49,470
Well, I don't even know.

810
00:38:49,529 --> 00:38:51,629
It just something that smells like ai.

811
00:38:51,660 --> 00:38:51,720
Yeah.

812
00:38:51,720 --> 00:38:55,379
Is, it's an intuition you get, you know,
I'll get emails from people at work.

813
00:38:55,379 --> 00:38:57,509
I'll be, that smells like ai.

814
00:38:57,515 --> 00:38:57,765
Mm-hmm.

815
00:38:57,845 --> 00:39:01,319
And you just kinda have to laugh it off
and like, let it roll over your shoulder.

816
00:39:01,410 --> 00:39:04,921
But maybe it's not, and like, to your
point with your friend's books, you

817
00:39:05,069 --> 00:39:12,779
know, I, I'm in a lot of like circles
with writers and authors and you know,

818
00:39:14,790 --> 00:39:18,359
there are so many people who start
books who will never publish.

819
00:39:19,140 --> 00:39:19,500
Mm.

820
00:39:19,740 --> 00:39:22,169
You know, there's the psychology
behind it or maybe they're just

821
00:39:22,169 --> 00:39:24,240
not writers, like your friends.

822
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:26,279
And they had shelved it for many years.

823
00:39:27,165 --> 00:39:29,955
And they had the ideas down and
they used it to tie together.

824
00:39:29,955 --> 00:39:30,765
I think that's beautiful.

825
00:39:30,765 --> 00:39:31,515
I think it's great.

826
00:39:31,905 --> 00:39:34,125
I think people need to
get their work out there.

827
00:39:34,125 --> 00:39:34,365
Mm-hmm.

828
00:39:34,605 --> 00:39:34,965
Now,

829
00:39:35,235 --> 00:39:38,475
over time, can you start to
tell, like, I'm gonna hedge

830
00:39:38,475 --> 00:39:40,005
my bets on saying, I hope so.

831
00:39:40,365 --> 00:39:43,815
I hope someone can read my work
and be like, oh, I see the fallacy

832
00:39:43,815 --> 00:39:47,625
in his writing enough to, to
recognize that it, it's actually me.

833
00:39:47,925 --> 00:39:53,415
You know, being open to having
errors or stuff that is unique

834
00:39:53,415 --> 00:39:58,125
or, uh, linguistically unique
for the area that you live in.

835
00:39:58,755 --> 00:40:01,155
That might be a tel of saying, oh,
this guy actually wrote this book.

836
00:40:01,515 --> 00:40:03,345
But I, I, it's so hard to say.

837
00:40:03,375 --> 00:40:07,515
Like, I, I'm not anti AI for
getting good work out there.

838
00:40:07,815 --> 00:40:10,125
Um, I have my hard stances personally.

839
00:40:10,305 --> 00:40:10,395
Mm-hmm.

840
00:40:10,635 --> 00:40:10,935
But

841
00:40:11,655 --> 00:40:13,725
there's gonna be a lot of
good that comes of it too.

842
00:40:13,845 --> 00:40:17,145
And that's, it's this weird
catch 22 that I don't know how

843
00:40:17,145 --> 00:40:18,795
to wrestle with to be honest.

844
00:40:19,215 --> 00:40:23,175
Um, and I think it's a
time will tell scenario.

845
00:40:24,075 --> 00:40:28,935
Well, I've, I've taken the approach
that like at some point, like progress

846
00:40:28,935 --> 00:40:31,725
is always happening and it's always
putting people outta work, right?

847
00:40:31,725 --> 00:40:31,785
Yeah.

848
00:40:31,785 --> 00:40:36,105
We used to live in a,
you know, a physicality.

849
00:40:36,105 --> 00:40:37,545
That was the thing that got you through.

850
00:40:37,545 --> 00:40:40,245
If you can get out, you can farm,
you work hard, you're gonna be

851
00:40:40,245 --> 00:40:43,755
making money and your family's gonna
do well, you're gonna live happy.

852
00:40:43,755 --> 00:40:47,895
And then the industrial revolution,
and they automate things and all

853
00:40:47,895 --> 00:40:50,565
of a sudden they're like, okay,
you gotta get an education, right?

854
00:40:50,565 --> 00:40:55,395
And education goes through, now we
got AI coming and like that whole

855
00:40:55,395 --> 00:40:57,285
adage of you gotta know your math.

856
00:40:57,285 --> 00:40:59,625
You're never gonna be walking around
with a calculator in your pocket.

857
00:40:59,625 --> 00:41:00,765
Well, that didn't Yeah.

858
00:41:00,795 --> 00:41:01,875
Hold up too well.

859
00:41:02,355 --> 00:41:04,125
So there's always gonna be these changes.

860
00:41:04,125 --> 00:41:05,925
There's always gonna be times
when people are like, oh my

861
00:41:05,925 --> 00:41:07,065
God, it's the end of the world.

862
00:41:07,065 --> 00:41:11,295
Like when the steam engine came
out, people were protesting it.

863
00:41:11,325 --> 00:41:12,915
'cause they said, you can't use this.

864
00:41:12,915 --> 00:41:14,355
It's gonna put so many people outta work.

865
00:41:14,655 --> 00:41:14,835
Yep.

866
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:14,870
But.

867
00:41:15,645 --> 00:41:17,175
We have to learn to pivot.

868
00:41:17,175 --> 00:41:22,305
And I think when it comes to like
ai, I kinda liken it to using a word

869
00:41:22,305 --> 00:41:24,195
processor as opposed to a typewriter.

870
00:41:24,195 --> 00:41:28,125
Like I'm, I'm not gonna invent my own
word processor to put this thing together.

871
00:41:28,125 --> 00:41:33,555
I'm gonna lean on the bolding and the
spell checking and the suggested, uh,

872
00:41:33,615 --> 00:41:39,075
calm is, or whatever it might have a, as I
type it out, PE-people think that's okay.

873
00:41:39,075 --> 00:41:42,945
And if I'm gonna be using ai,
what I do now is the same thing

874
00:41:42,945 --> 00:41:44,085
I suggested to my friends.

875
00:41:44,085 --> 00:41:46,905
I said, in your forward, why
don't you just be up front

876
00:41:46,905 --> 00:41:48,435
and say this is what we did.

877
00:41:48,435 --> 00:41:51,645
We, a lot of blood, sweat
and tears went into this.

878
00:41:51,855 --> 00:41:54,675
And in order to get it out, we
used AI to put this together.

879
00:41:54,705 --> 00:41:55,245
Right.

880
00:41:55,365 --> 00:42:00,855
So now based on my GSP thing or anything
else, I was asked for some feedback on

881
00:42:00,855 --> 00:42:05,355
a new product that's being made by a
Canadian manufacturing company, which

882
00:42:05,355 --> 00:42:08,505
is a Silver Core Club partner, which
I'm really excited to talk about when

883
00:42:08,505 --> 00:42:10,695
I can, but I'll just leave that there.

884
00:42:11,460 --> 00:42:16,530
And I, I'm just upfront, I said, look,
it, I, I typed out three pages of notes,

885
00:42:16,530 --> 00:42:21,750
but it, I used AI to make it put into
something that's digestible for you.

886
00:42:21,750 --> 00:42:21,930
Yeah.

887
00:42:22,380 --> 00:42:27,570
And, and I think, um, I think that's
gonna be the tool moving forward.

888
00:42:27,570 --> 00:42:31,380
Not to pretend like this is you,
even though it is me, it's my stuff.

889
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:34,560
But just say, look, it, I, I
didn't invent the word processor,

890
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:35,850
but I quickly typed it out.

891
00:42:36,330 --> 00:42:36,630
Yeah.

892
00:42:36,660 --> 00:42:41,430
I think that kind of footnoting,
what is that level of honesty?

893
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:48,390
And it helps you to avoid that
questioning, you know, like, yeah.

894
00:42:48,390 --> 00:42:49,470
This was my notes.

895
00:42:49,500 --> 00:42:53,490
I used AI to put into three bullet points
that you could take away more easily.

896
00:42:54,450 --> 00:42:54,810
Yeah.

897
00:42:54,870 --> 00:42:56,280
You are a self-deprecating guy.

898
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:57,450
I'm a self-deprecating guy.

899
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:00,960
I tend to be a little verbose in
my note taking and stuff like that.

900
00:43:01,860 --> 00:43:03,090
For me, it'd be like, Hey.

901
00:43:03,509 --> 00:43:09,299
Instead of sending you four pages
of ramblings from an A DHD brain, I

902
00:43:09,299 --> 00:43:14,100
asked AI to help me condense it to
the three main takeaways for you.

903
00:43:14,370 --> 00:43:14,730
Right.

904
00:43:14,940 --> 00:43:15,720
I think that's honest.

905
00:43:15,720 --> 00:43:16,169
I think that's fair.

906
00:43:16,169 --> 00:43:22,080
And I think it's a good use of an LLM
and AI and kind of every day task taking.

907
00:43:23,220 --> 00:43:28,140
But what's, you know, interesting
to me too, um, you know, the amount

908
00:43:28,140 --> 00:43:32,609
of electricity and energy for every
single one of those prompts, prompts

909
00:43:32,609 --> 00:43:36,690
being someone typing up plain language
request and the chat, GPT, clawed

910
00:43:36,690 --> 00:43:40,049
gr whatever you use is astronomical.

911
00:43:40,529 --> 00:43:41,190
Is it really?

912
00:43:41,370 --> 00:43:42,145
Oh my god.

913
00:43:42,450 --> 00:43:44,759
I don't know what the actual stat is.

914
00:43:44,759 --> 00:43:47,129
You know, you'll have to, someone
will have to Google it, but it is

915
00:43:47,250 --> 00:43:48,330
get on AI and ask.

916
00:43:48,390 --> 00:43:48,629
Yeah.

917
00:43:48,690 --> 00:43:49,200
Well, yeah.

918
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:56,160
But it is an absurd amount of energy
per prompt and um, you know, with it

919
00:43:56,250 --> 00:43:58,319
comes the need for more data centers.

920
00:43:58,725 --> 00:44:03,015
And electricity to be able to continue
to run these things at the scale that

921
00:44:03,015 --> 00:44:04,995
they're going to continue to amplify at.

922
00:44:05,654 --> 00:44:07,395
Uh, they're all in podcasts.

923
00:44:07,395 --> 00:44:10,484
I was listening to it the other day
and it was all about manufacturing.

924
00:44:10,484 --> 00:44:14,234
It was like, how do we, you know,
actually build these things to

925
00:44:14,234 --> 00:44:15,944
continue on this path for ai?

926
00:44:16,365 --> 00:44:22,665
And the, then tying back into the book a
little bit is, you know, my high school

927
00:44:22,665 --> 00:44:26,805
graduating class, this will, you know,
age me as a young guy, but like, you know,

928
00:44:26,805 --> 00:44:29,654
I graduated high school in 2006 or 2007.

929
00:44:30,375 --> 00:44:30,615
Hmm.

930
00:44:31,095 --> 00:44:35,205
In the US there were 33
million high school graduates.

931
00:44:36,194 --> 00:44:42,734
76% went to a two or four year pay
to play university, taking on debt.

932
00:44:43,754 --> 00:44:47,654
You know, out of that 33 million,
I think the, the number is like.

933
00:44:48,075 --> 00:44:51,705
Super low, maybe 10, 15% went
to a trade school, you know,

934
00:44:51,705 --> 00:44:53,175
another couple did nothing.

935
00:44:53,175 --> 00:44:55,635
And then someone into the military,
which you could argue might lead to

936
00:44:55,635 --> 00:44:57,345
a trade in some instances as well.

937
00:44:57,375 --> 00:44:57,465
Mm-hmm.

938
00:44:57,735 --> 00:44:59,655
So let's say it's 15%.

939
00:44:59,655 --> 00:45:04,365
So you know, you're having a very
small number, a year over a year

940
00:45:04,365 --> 00:45:07,245
of people who actually learning
the trades, hvac, plumbing, you

941
00:45:07,245 --> 00:45:09,885
know, welding, insert any of those.

942
00:45:10,395 --> 00:45:13,575
And you do that year over
year, over year, over year.

943
00:45:13,845 --> 00:45:18,495
And the number of trades people
has just been minimally low.

944
00:45:18,855 --> 00:45:23,355
And for every five people that are
retiring out of the trades right

945
00:45:23,355 --> 00:45:25,005
now, only two are replacing them.

946
00:45:25,395 --> 00:45:30,195
But the demand is going up, not
just domestically for like, Hey, I

947
00:45:30,195 --> 00:45:32,265
need somebody to come fix my hvac.

948
00:45:33,045 --> 00:45:36,765
But even just for like building
data centers, you need, they

949
00:45:36,765 --> 00:45:38,865
need kus of electricians.

950
00:45:38,925 --> 00:45:41,175
And they were saying they
can't hire enough electricians.

951
00:45:41,205 --> 00:45:44,415
They need welders, they need
everything that goes into building

952
00:45:44,415 --> 00:45:47,505
these physical machines to power.

953
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:49,770
The digital world that we're moving into.

954
00:45:49,860 --> 00:45:50,010
Mm-hmm.

955
00:45:50,670 --> 00:45:52,470
And you know, that's a stark contrast.

956
00:45:52,470 --> 00:45:55,980
And now, you know, I'm sure you've
seen it, I've seen it even in my own

957
00:45:55,980 --> 00:46:01,500
life of like, now you call a handyman
for a leaky water heater, whatever.

958
00:46:01,505 --> 00:46:05,280
It's, it's not like, Hey,
I'll be there in an hour.

959
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:05,850
It's like, yep.

960
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:07,770
I could probably get to
you in a week or two.

961
00:46:07,950 --> 00:46:08,550
That's right.

962
00:46:09,690 --> 00:46:12,690
But meanwhile, your floors are
bowing because your water heater's

963
00:46:12,690 --> 00:46:16,140
leaking and you don't even know
where your water shutoff valve is.

964
00:46:16,230 --> 00:46:16,680
Yep.

965
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:20,220
And then, then you, that that
panic is starting to set in

966
00:46:20,220 --> 00:46:21,360
for people every day like that.

967
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:24,000
We don't know the basics anymore.

968
00:46:24,180 --> 00:46:24,480
Yeah.

969
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:26,640
And that's so scary.

970
00:46:27,510 --> 00:46:28,440
It's very scary.

971
00:46:28,590 --> 00:46:33,090
So we look at our education system, which
is rather antiquated in its approach.

972
00:46:33,180 --> 00:46:33,330
Yep.

973
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:35,160
Uh, wrought with flaws.

974
00:46:35,220 --> 00:46:38,340
I did not do well in a
traditional educational SY system.

975
00:46:38,550 --> 00:46:38,700
Yep.

976
00:46:38,940 --> 00:46:40,050
Some people do.

977
00:46:40,170 --> 00:46:40,920
Um.

978
00:46:42,345 --> 00:46:46,545
I can see a lot of areas where there
can be improvements made, but with

979
00:46:46,545 --> 00:46:51,734
the idea of the trade gap, your book,
and how we get people to be more

980
00:46:51,734 --> 00:46:58,214
renaissance minded, what would you
do to overhaul the education system?

981
00:46:58,755 --> 00:46:59,025
Yeah.

982
00:46:59,025 --> 00:46:59,205
What would

983
00:46:59,205 --> 00:46:59,685
you leave it as?

984
00:46:59,685 --> 00:47:00,105
It is?

985
00:47:00,525 --> 00:47:04,065
You know, I, I, there's a lot of great
examples, and one I talked to about

986
00:47:04,065 --> 00:47:05,805
in the book is the state of Oklahoma.

987
00:47:05,805 --> 00:47:11,025
They have done a great job historically,
even from like the early 19 hundreds

988
00:47:11,085 --> 00:47:16,305
in trade education, largely a rural
agricultural state, but the, you know,

989
00:47:16,305 --> 00:47:24,194
they have started to integrate trade
education more holistically in their, you

990
00:47:24,194 --> 00:47:26,595
know, middle and high school curriculum.

991
00:47:27,045 --> 00:47:27,134
Mm-hmm.

992
00:47:27,375 --> 00:47:30,975
Every single county has a trade center.

993
00:47:30,975 --> 00:47:33,645
I think there's like 26 counties
might have the number wrong, but that

994
00:47:33,645 --> 00:47:39,615
means there's 26 trade education and
they have a very good program where.

995
00:47:40,425 --> 00:47:43,905
At the beginning of high school for
these students, I think it's called icap.

996
00:47:43,905 --> 00:47:46,155
I don't remember what the acronym
stands for, but they'll sit with

997
00:47:46,155 --> 00:47:49,245
high school students and kind of
work out, um, what do they want

998
00:47:49,245 --> 00:47:50,535
their high school career look like.

999
00:47:50,985 --> 00:47:56,025
You know, you should have the opportunity
to dabble in some of these things.

1000
00:47:56,025 --> 00:47:59,805
Like you can come before school, during
school, or after school if you wanna learn

1001
00:47:59,805 --> 00:48:01,395
to hang sheet rock and do construction.

1002
00:48:01,515 --> 00:48:01,605
Mm-hmm.

1003
00:48:01,845 --> 00:48:04,485
If you want to do nursing, you
should start to kind of getting

1004
00:48:04,485 --> 00:48:06,945
some nursing education while
you're already in high school.

1005
00:48:07,305 --> 00:48:12,765
And what's happening is they're graduating
kids that either may want to still go on

1006
00:48:12,765 --> 00:48:17,535
to a four year degree, but they have a
hard skill that they're already certified

1007
00:48:17,535 --> 00:48:21,615
in, say welding, to help maybe augment
the debt that they're taking on for.

1008
00:48:21,645 --> 00:48:23,535
They can work as a welder through school.

1009
00:48:23,745 --> 00:48:28,335
They can work as a nurse through school,
um, you know, things of that nature where

1010
00:48:28,335 --> 00:48:32,680
they're actually working with kids to give
them a true general education, which is.

1011
00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:40,410
Skill development as well as the, you
know, humanities side and STEM side.

1012
00:48:40,415 --> 00:48:40,745
Mm-hmm.

1013
00:48:40,830 --> 00:48:43,859
And letting kids kind of find
where their passions are.

1014
00:48:43,890 --> 00:48:47,609
'cause it sounded like you, like
I didn't do great in, I ended

1015
00:48:47,609 --> 00:48:48,930
up forcing my way through it.

1016
00:48:48,990 --> 00:48:53,460
Like I did, you know, my high school
and I was a very average student.

1017
00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:57,299
I got more focused in college and
then I did graduate school twice.

1018
00:48:57,690 --> 00:49:01,529
Um, but I didn't ever really
know what I wanted to do.

1019
00:49:01,529 --> 00:49:04,770
I had never actually been
exposed to say, doing business.

1020
00:49:04,980 --> 00:49:07,049
I didn't get exposed to trades.

1021
00:49:07,230 --> 00:49:10,109
I would just kind of blindly
following what people said was the

1022
00:49:10,109 --> 00:49:11,609
right formula to be successful.

1023
00:49:11,609 --> 00:49:14,640
And it turned out to be very false for me.

1024
00:49:14,730 --> 00:49:18,839
You know, I was able to bully my way
into a career in a field, which was

1025
00:49:18,839 --> 00:49:20,399
great, but that was my personality.

1026
00:49:20,399 --> 00:49:24,569
That wasn't my, you know,
education that paid off for that.

1027
00:49:24,569 --> 00:49:26,520
That was just pure tenacity.

1028
00:49:26,940 --> 00:49:27,029
Mm-hmm.

1029
00:49:27,029 --> 00:49:27,299
So I

1030
00:49:27,299 --> 00:49:29,220
think what they're doing well in Oklahoma.

1031
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:34,260
Doing true general education early,
exposing kids to so much, letting them

1032
00:49:34,260 --> 00:49:37,470
kind of like take that Montessori approach
of like, what are you attracted to?

1033
00:49:37,740 --> 00:49:42,300
But being very honest with 'em, you
know, like, uh, I think the director of

1034
00:49:42,300 --> 00:49:49,560
ICAP in Oklahoma was saying something
to the effect of, you know, we still

1035
00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:54,240
have to develop grit in these kids,
especially in the grades because, you

1036
00:49:54,240 --> 00:49:59,040
know, the worst thing they could do is
show them how to hang sheet rock and

1037
00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:02,820
then kick 'em out the door and they're
actually hanging sheet rock and they don't

1038
00:50:02,820 --> 00:50:05,550
understand what the environment is like.

1039
00:50:05,820 --> 00:50:08,190
And construction environments,
a lot of trade environments,

1040
00:50:08,190 --> 00:50:09,060
like they're hard on you.

1041
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:11,490
You know, there's the
apprentice mentality.

1042
00:50:11,490 --> 00:50:14,490
They're gonna be bullying,
there's gonna be stuff that,

1043
00:50:14,490 --> 00:50:17,460
uh, you have to be prepared for.

1044
00:50:17,700 --> 00:50:21,300
So I think that's the, the
answer is expanding that

1045
00:50:22,260 --> 00:50:24,510
more generally across the us.

1046
00:50:24,540 --> 00:50:27,420
Um, and that's for kids coming
up now, for adults who are

1047
00:50:27,420 --> 00:50:28,650
already in the world that I'm in.

1048
00:50:29,069 --> 00:50:32,430
Uh, that is a different story and that's
another thing I touch on in the book.

1049
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:35,490
So, okay.

1050
00:50:35,490 --> 00:50:38,400
So for an a adult, they're
up and coming in the world.

1051
00:50:40,350 --> 00:50:43,500
You're gonna encourage 'em to learn
a trade, learn how to do something.

1052
00:50:43,500 --> 00:50:45,660
What would be the number one
trade that you'd tell people

1053
00:50:45,660 --> 00:50:46,981
that they should be looking at?

1054
00:50:47,174 --> 00:50:47,395
You

1055
00:50:47,395 --> 00:50:48,150
know, I don't know.

1056
00:50:48,180 --> 00:50:49,860
I, I don't have an answer for that.

1057
00:50:49,860 --> 00:50:54,900
And again, my knitting could
be a trade in my mind, right?

1058
00:50:54,900 --> 00:50:57,330
Like, you could be making
some socks on the side.

1059
00:50:57,540 --> 00:50:57,810
It,

1060
00:50:58,950 --> 00:51:01,740
EMS, you know, like
volunteering on the side.

1061
00:51:01,740 --> 00:51:06,509
Like, I have a guy, a friend of mine from
my time at Capital One in the AI world

1062
00:51:06,509 --> 00:51:10,860
where, you know, he's ex-military, but he
was also getting a little disillusioned

1063
00:51:10,860 --> 00:51:14,220
with the day to day he is like, I
need something else to hang my hat on.

1064
00:51:14,549 --> 00:51:18,569
And he got EMS certified and now he
helps run in the ambulances in the

1065
00:51:18,569 --> 00:51:20,340
evening, a few nights a week in his town.

1066
00:51:20,790 --> 00:51:22,950
Um, you know, the approach is.

1067
00:51:24,045 --> 00:51:28,140
I very much, I, I kind of borrowed from
Michael Easter, the idea of like his oggi

1068
00:51:28,140 --> 00:51:30,330
and then Michael Easter's comfort crisis.

1069
00:51:30,330 --> 00:51:33,750
He's like, you should do at least one
thing every year that is very, very

1070
00:51:33,750 --> 00:51:38,490
hard, um, physically that you run a
chance of not actually completing.

1071
00:51:38,490 --> 00:51:40,800
And that's to kind of help build
this resilience that you can

1072
00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:43,320
kind of grow into over time.

1073
00:51:43,860 --> 00:51:47,070
And for me, I kind of have the same
mentality, but applying it to trades.

1074
00:51:47,070 --> 00:51:50,640
Like if you're a knowledge worker,
that's great, you're making money.

1075
00:51:50,670 --> 00:51:54,690
But as a hedge you should start doing
like little monthly mini ogis, the things

1076
00:51:54,690 --> 00:51:59,100
you've put off or have historically
said, due to the time value of money,

1077
00:51:59,100 --> 00:52:02,640
it's easier for me to hire someone
else to do it, to try it yourself.

1078
00:52:03,030 --> 00:52:06,270
And for many people that might be
changing the oil in your car one

1079
00:52:06,270 --> 00:52:09,960
month, the next month it might be
those floorboards or the, you know,

1080
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:13,050
baseboards that you've wanted to
replace for forever that you never did.

1081
00:52:14,100 --> 00:52:17,670
Again, use AI as an augment, you
know, ask chat GPT, like what do

1082
00:52:17,670 --> 00:52:19,050
I need to go get from Home Depot?

1083
00:52:19,050 --> 00:52:23,220
And, you know, put it up there, have
it speak to you and do it, but do these

1084
00:52:23,220 --> 00:52:26,490
little things to accrue a set of skills.

1085
00:52:26,490 --> 00:52:29,100
Now you could focus on one thing.

1086
00:52:29,220 --> 00:52:33,450
Like a lot of guys I know like to
smoke barbecue, go to your night

1087
00:52:33,450 --> 00:52:37,020
welding local community college and
learn to stick weld like I did, and

1088
00:52:37,020 --> 00:52:39,630
then build a barrel smoker and smoke

1089
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:40,080
thing.

1090
00:52:40,470 --> 00:52:43,920
Um, I'm sitting in front of my desk
like this will not mean much to many

1091
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:46,890
people, but this is the first piece
of metal I ever welded together.

1092
00:52:47,190 --> 00:52:52,440
Oh yeah, it is a little t and you can see
like my terrible welds and then starting

1093
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:54,000
to go into something that's passable.

1094
00:52:54,540 --> 00:52:56,790
But I look at this every day sitting
at my desk, and this is one of

1095
00:52:56,790 --> 00:53:00,780
the more proud things that I have
accomplished is like knowing that I

1096
00:53:00,780 --> 00:53:04,350
could do something that my grandfather
used to do who was a welder by trade.

1097
00:53:04,740 --> 00:53:11,670
Um, and just picking up those little wins
of self-reliance is what my proposal is.

1098
00:53:12,405 --> 00:53:15,825
I'm not telling people to quit their
jobs and knowledge working, or if

1099
00:53:15,825 --> 00:53:20,385
you're a lawyer making a lot of money
to quit, but man, you should spend

1100
00:53:20,385 --> 00:53:28,695
extra time to try and expand your
mind and your skills capability.

1101
00:53:29,625 --> 00:53:32,295
And then in the event of the
hammer dropping, you might

1102
00:53:32,295 --> 00:53:33,465
have something to fall back on.

1103
00:53:35,025 --> 00:53:35,445
Yeah.

1104
00:53:35,505 --> 00:53:38,655
And if the hammer never drops, I think
you touched on something pretty huge

1105
00:53:38,655 --> 00:53:41,145
there, and that's the grit portion of it.

1106
00:53:41,205 --> 00:53:45,285
So many people are a
discomfort adverse and yeah.

1107
00:53:45,285 --> 00:53:47,805
Michael Easter, Easter writes about
that in the comfort crisis, and I

1108
00:53:47,805 --> 00:53:50,115
think he makes a very, very good point.

1109
00:53:50,115 --> 00:53:54,855
And he, and he wrote in your book
as well, he's got, um, a little

1110
00:53:54,855 --> 00:53:55,995
blurb that he put about it.

1111
00:53:56,565 --> 00:54:02,865
The, the idea of doing things that
are uncomfortable for the sake of.

1112
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:06,990
Knowing that you can actually
do uncomfortable things like

1113
00:54:06,990 --> 00:54:08,819
those ogis, what are his rules?

1114
00:54:08,939 --> 00:54:10,890
Number one rule is you, you can't die.

1115
00:54:10,895 --> 00:54:11,015
Yep.

1116
00:54:11,015 --> 00:54:11,375
Don die.

1117
00:54:11,379 --> 00:54:14,850
'cause he kind of defeats the purpose
of the oggi if you're dead Yep.

1118
00:54:14,850 --> 00:54:19,020
But isn't number two, that the
likelihoods of success or, eh,

1119
00:54:19,109 --> 00:54:20,609
maybe I'll succeed, maybe I won't.

1120
00:54:20,910 --> 00:54:21,149
Yep.

1121
00:54:22,500 --> 00:54:23,160
Coin toss.

1122
00:54:23,165 --> 00:54:23,549
Right,

1123
00:54:24,209 --> 00:54:24,810
right.

1124
00:54:25,290 --> 00:54:31,709
Um, so I, I think, I think he's
brought some attention to that.

1125
00:54:31,709 --> 00:54:36,149
I think with the trade gap, you're
bringing more attention to that idea

1126
00:54:36,149 --> 00:54:37,770
and perhaps from a different angle.

1127
00:54:37,770 --> 00:54:42,509
And maybe it's a little bit more, um, bit
more tangible that people can actually

1128
00:54:42,509 --> 00:54:45,540
do these mini masos on a regular basis.

1129
00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:46,410
Okay.

1130
00:54:46,410 --> 00:54:50,700
I was recording a podcast on a boat
the other day, and, uh, buddy's a

1131
00:54:50,700 --> 00:54:54,480
videographer and he's setting up one of
the GoPro things on the side, and he,

1132
00:54:54,750 --> 00:54:56,400
he dropped some of my kit overboard.

1133
00:54:56,759 --> 00:54:58,049
Okay, fair enough.

1134
00:54:58,350 --> 00:55:03,210
Um, I can go on Amazon, I can order
a new piece of kit, it's gonna cost

1135
00:55:03,720 --> 00:55:08,130
X amount of dollars, or I can make it
myself, like I've got enough stuff in

1136
00:55:08,130 --> 00:55:11,850
the back, in the shop and I can, I, it's
not gonna be perfect, and it's gonna

1137
00:55:11,850 --> 00:55:18,509
take me longer to make that than it's
gonna take to, uh, just buy it on Amazon.

1138
00:55:18,509 --> 00:55:19,980
Like the cost value.

1139
00:55:19,980 --> 00:55:20,250
Well, what make

1140
00:55:20,250 --> 00:55:21,750
your door the same day?

1141
00:55:22,950 --> 00:55:25,080
It would've, it would've
arrived at the same day.

1142
00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:30,330
And the cost value proposition is like,
so how much per hour do I think I'm worth?

1143
00:55:30,330 --> 00:55:32,310
How much time is it gonna take?

1144
00:55:32,310 --> 00:55:34,890
And I've, and I've played that
game back and forth a lot of times.

1145
00:55:34,890 --> 00:55:37,410
And of course, if we're doing it,
do I, what do I think I'm worth?

1146
00:55:37,410 --> 00:55:39,120
Well, I think I'm worth a lot.

1147
00:55:39,150 --> 00:55:44,759
So, um, you can start falling in the trap
of paying for things over and over again.

1148
00:55:44,835 --> 00:55:46,935
Yeah, as opposed to doing things.

1149
00:55:46,935 --> 00:55:50,715
But there, it doesn't
lead to a happy life.

1150
00:55:51,075 --> 00:55:55,155
It doesn't give me kit that has scars on
it that I can be proud of, that I could

1151
00:55:55,155 --> 00:55:57,285
turn around and show people or hand down.

1152
00:55:57,705 --> 00:56:01,755
Happiness isn't a destination
that I can ever get to.

1153
00:56:02,085 --> 00:56:06,285
It's a byproduct of what I'm
doing towards that destination.

1154
00:56:06,915 --> 00:56:11,715
So the thing you just described is
something I cover in two chapters on the

1155
00:56:11,715 --> 00:56:16,665
book, which is both of our generation
and especially the Amazon generation

1156
00:56:16,665 --> 00:56:20,385
now, is about the time value of money.

1157
00:56:20,475 --> 00:56:23,625
We've all been coached up, like, you
know, like you said, you drop that kid

1158
00:56:23,625 --> 00:56:27,555
overboard, you start doing that dance
of like, well, what's my hourly rate?

1159
00:56:27,885 --> 00:56:31,515
And I could just order this, pay the cash.

1160
00:56:31,515 --> 00:56:32,265
Is that my door?

1161
00:56:32,265 --> 00:56:33,165
I can forget about it.

1162
00:56:33,915 --> 00:56:37,545
Or do I go and do the thing
and it takes time and it has

1163
00:56:37,545 --> 00:56:38,985
the scars and it has meaning.

1164
00:56:38,985 --> 00:56:42,675
And 99 out of a hundred times, most
of us these days are gonna be like

1165
00:56:42,760 --> 00:56:45,300
b. It's a one click purchase button.

1166
00:56:45,300 --> 00:56:46,680
It's already got my address in there.

1167
00:56:46,680 --> 00:56:47,490
Got my credit card.

1168
00:56:47,490 --> 00:56:48,060
I'm good to go.

1169
00:56:48,390 --> 00:56:48,570
Yep.

1170
00:56:48,840 --> 00:56:55,020
Um, the argument I make is that we should
transfer from time value of money, TVM to

1171
00:56:55,020 --> 00:57:00,030
what I'm calling time value of experience
TVE, and looking at these things,

1172
00:57:00,030 --> 00:57:02,430
knowing that the math doesn't math like

1173
00:57:02,460 --> 00:57:02,550
mm-hmm.

1174
00:57:02,790 --> 00:57:02,940
There's

1175
00:57:02,940 --> 00:57:07,530
no way you can economically talk
your way out of that mentality,

1176
00:57:07,950 --> 00:57:10,860
but you have to make the conscious
decision to say, you know what?

1177
00:57:12,270 --> 00:57:14,250
This hourly rate thing doesn't work out.

1178
00:57:14,670 --> 00:57:16,140
This is gonna take me a long time.

1179
00:57:16,140 --> 00:57:19,170
This might lead to more time
because there's gonna be something

1180
00:57:19,170 --> 00:57:21,990
that happens that I don't expect
because I don't know what I'm doing.

1181
00:57:22,260 --> 00:57:22,350
Mm-hmm.

1182
00:57:22,590 --> 00:57:22,890
But it's

1183
00:57:22,890 --> 00:57:27,660
worth that in order to build that
resilience, to build that experience,

1184
00:57:27,660 --> 00:57:33,120
to build those skills, despite what
we've grown up being pushed towards,

1185
00:57:33,120 --> 00:57:34,440
which is time value of money.

1186
00:57:34,440 --> 00:57:35,700
Mm-hmm.

1187
00:57:37,275 --> 00:57:41,384
So you mentioned earlier that
going through school that you

1188
00:57:41,384 --> 00:57:42,944
didn't know what you wanted to do.

1189
00:57:42,944 --> 00:57:43,605
Mm-hmm.

1190
00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:45,435
Do you know what you wanna do now?

1191
00:57:46,935 --> 00:57:52,185
You know, I, I didn't know what I
wanted to do and I fell into my career.

1192
00:57:52,634 --> 00:57:59,805
And what's ironic is I've had a
career in AI for the last 12 years.

1193
00:58:01,185 --> 00:58:06,105
I'm very lucky for that, but I always
found myself having a hard time

1194
00:58:06,105 --> 00:58:08,505
answering the question at dinner parties.

1195
00:58:08,895 --> 00:58:09,975
Hey Zach, what do you do?

1196
00:58:11,895 --> 00:58:16,545
You know, and I don't know if it was
embarrassment or what, but I always

1197
00:58:16,935 --> 00:58:19,935
kind of skirted the question and be
like, oh, I don't even know what I do.

1198
00:58:20,355 --> 00:58:22,275
And like rerouted the question.

1199
00:58:22,815 --> 00:58:22,845
Mm.

1200
00:58:22,845 --> 00:58:27,795
Because what I would say is like, yeah,
you know, I'm an AI product manager and.

1201
00:58:28,185 --> 00:58:33,405
I help build algorithms to further
fuel the absurd consumerism that

1202
00:58:33,405 --> 00:58:35,475
we're all, you know, tied into.

1203
00:58:36,405 --> 00:58:40,485
And, you know, that either sounds creepy
or you know, people just kinda like, nah.

1204
00:58:40,515 --> 00:58:42,225
They're like, oh yeah, cool, that guy.

1205
00:58:42,555 --> 00:58:48,405
Um, versus now to somewhat answer your
question is like, you know, I'm a writer.

1206
00:58:49,335 --> 00:58:52,095
I'm a trapper and occasional welder.

1207
00:58:52,185 --> 00:58:52,875
That's my answer.

1208
00:58:53,325 --> 00:58:53,445
Yeah.

1209
00:58:53,445 --> 00:58:53,595
And

1210
00:58:53,595 --> 00:58:55,155
those are the things that bring me joy.

1211
00:58:55,335 --> 00:58:55,665
Right.

1212
00:58:55,665 --> 00:58:58,875
And I think that's where that
line is like what actually defines

1213
00:58:58,875 --> 00:59:04,185
me my day-to-day career and it's
taken me a long time to get here.

1214
00:59:04,185 --> 00:59:07,305
Travis is not my day job.

1215
00:59:07,860 --> 00:59:08,280
Mm-hmm.

1216
00:59:08,365 --> 00:59:11,265
I thought it was for a long
time, but it never was.

1217
00:59:11,595 --> 00:59:17,895
So now as I'm finding my way into
stuff that like has soul to it is

1218
00:59:17,895 --> 00:59:22,845
the things that I claim as what
I do because it is what I do.

1219
00:59:23,355 --> 00:59:26,625
I spend time in the
mountains, I guide, I hunt.

1220
00:59:26,625 --> 00:59:31,005
Now I still have my day job that still
pays the bills, but that's not what I do.

1221
00:59:31,425 --> 00:59:31,575
Mm-hmm.

1222
00:59:33,165 --> 00:59:37,395
You know, I've, I've mentioned this
on the podcast before, and, uh, it's

1223
00:59:37,395 --> 00:59:41,745
been said on the podcast by Dean
Nugent, who was ex British Army.

1224
00:59:42,015 --> 00:59:48,375
Him and Jace Bud were sitting at the
table here and, uh, they were talking

1225
00:59:48,375 --> 00:59:50,295
about mental health and resilience.

1226
00:59:50,295 --> 00:59:53,925
And Dean brought up something
that has always stuck with me.

1227
00:59:54,195 --> 00:59:58,515
He says, well, Jace,
he's ex uh, British army.

1228
00:59:58,515 --> 01:00:00,705
He's, um, sniper with him.

1229
01:00:00,710 --> 01:00:01,995
Done, done this elite stuff.

1230
01:00:01,995 --> 01:00:05,895
Then he is a firefighter, and now
he's IMFG, a mountain guide and,

1231
01:00:06,585 --> 01:00:11,415
and, uh, some other certification
as well, which is quite up there.

1232
01:00:11,565 --> 01:00:14,115
Anyways, we were out climbing in Squamish.

1233
01:00:14,475 --> 01:00:15,585
Dean's at the bottom.

1234
01:00:16,125 --> 01:00:17,415
Jason's set in the route.

1235
01:00:17,625 --> 01:00:20,055
Dean's bling girl walks by and says.

1236
01:00:20,730 --> 01:00:21,570
Oh, you're a climber.

1237
01:00:21,570 --> 01:00:22,230
Are you dean's?

1238
01:00:22,230 --> 01:00:23,430
Like, no, I'm not a climber.

1239
01:00:23,430 --> 01:00:25,020
That guy out there, he's a climber, right?

1240
01:00:26,220 --> 01:00:27,990
And, uh, she says, well, hold on a second.

1241
01:00:27,990 --> 01:00:28,890
You've got a helmet on.

1242
01:00:29,340 --> 01:00:32,790
You got a harness on, you're attached
to a rope and you're belaying a person.

1243
01:00:32,790 --> 01:00:33,510
Are you going up there?

1244
01:00:33,510 --> 01:00:36,540
He's like, oh, yeah, I sure
sound like a climber to me.

1245
01:00:36,630 --> 01:00:38,520
Like, I've never been
on any of those, right?

1246
01:00:38,545 --> 01:00:38,965
Mm-hmm.

1247
01:00:39,180 --> 01:00:43,470
And that one has always stuck with me
because, like, you, I've had a hard time.

1248
01:00:43,470 --> 01:00:44,400
You're going across a border.

1249
01:00:44,400 --> 01:00:45,360
What do you do for work?

1250
01:00:46,050 --> 01:00:46,740
I don't know.

1251
01:00:46,800 --> 01:00:48,390
Like, as little as possible, right?

1252
01:00:48,510 --> 01:00:49,260
Or whatever.

1253
01:00:49,260 --> 01:00:51,810
Just whatever joke thing
you can throw out there.

1254
01:00:52,200 --> 01:00:56,700
Um, only recently I've
said I'm a podcaster.

1255
01:00:57,300 --> 01:01:00,750
I, I think this is gonna be in
the one sixties, one seventies.

1256
01:01:00,780 --> 01:01:04,620
Been doing this since 2019,
and only recently someone was

1257
01:01:04,620 --> 01:01:05,760
like, oh, you're a podcaster.

1258
01:01:05,760 --> 01:01:06,900
No, I'm not a podcaster.

1259
01:01:06,900 --> 01:01:07,500
I said, well.

1260
01:01:07,799 --> 01:01:11,145
You got a microphone, you talk into
it, you put it out every couple weeks.

1261
01:01:11,745 --> 01:01:13,424
You look like a podcaster to me.

1262
01:01:13,455 --> 01:01:13,575
Right.

1263
01:01:14,625 --> 01:01:16,095
How long did, because you've got what?

1264
01:01:16,095 --> 01:01:17,174
Five?

1265
01:01:17,174 --> 01:01:18,645
I think it's five, six books out.

1266
01:01:18,884 --> 01:01:20,174
Number five is the trick.

1267
01:01:20,234 --> 01:01:20,475
Yeah.

1268
01:01:20,774 --> 01:01:21,015
Yeah,

1269
01:01:21,020 --> 01:01:21,060
yeah.

1270
01:01:21,464 --> 01:01:23,564
Uh, how long did it take you
to feel comfortable to say

1271
01:01:23,564 --> 01:01:24,794
that, uh, you're a writer

1272
01:01:25,335 --> 01:01:25,665
now?

1273
01:01:26,294 --> 01:01:26,835
Really?

1274
01:01:27,705 --> 01:01:30,884
I mean, really like, you know,
like Yeah, I put 'em out.

1275
01:01:30,884 --> 01:01:36,585
Like, but again, I don't think podcasting
right now is the bulk of your income.

1276
01:01:36,944 --> 01:01:37,245
Hmm.

1277
01:01:37,754 --> 01:01:39,705
Writing for me is not
the bulk of my income.

1278
01:01:39,705 --> 01:01:41,024
I'm making tens of dollars.

1279
01:01:41,024 --> 01:01:42,524
I'm like rolling in it.

1280
01:01:42,915 --> 01:01:48,555
Um, but you know, it, I think what
people will assume is what you do

1281
01:01:48,555 --> 01:01:50,174
is tied to what pays your bills.

1282
01:01:50,805 --> 01:01:53,294
Mm. I think that's the mindset shift
that sounds like you've gone through.

1283
01:01:53,294 --> 01:01:55,245
And what I've gone through
is like, what do I do?

1284
01:01:55,694 --> 01:01:56,325
I'm a writer.

1285
01:01:56,439 --> 01:01:56,859
Mm-hmm.

1286
01:01:57,120 --> 01:01:58,875
You know, I write
articles for field ethos.

1287
01:01:58,875 --> 01:02:01,665
I write articles all the
time because I like writing.

1288
01:02:01,669 --> 01:02:01,939
Mm-hmm.

1289
01:02:02,680 --> 01:02:04,004
And I'm a writer.

1290
01:02:05,444 --> 01:02:05,924
I'm a welder.

1291
01:02:06,464 --> 01:02:07,095
I'm a trapper.

1292
01:02:07,635 --> 01:02:08,745
Those are the things that I do.

1293
01:02:08,925 --> 01:02:14,295
And it took me up until very recently to
get to that point of understanding of who

1294
01:02:14,295 --> 01:02:16,755
I am and being comfortable saying that.

1295
01:02:17,175 --> 01:02:20,835
And everything that stemmed around me
hemming and hauling and trying to figure

1296
01:02:20,835 --> 01:02:25,335
out what to say when people ask me that
before was all fueled by insecurities.

1297
01:02:25,335 --> 01:02:26,235
Like I know myself.

1298
01:02:26,325 --> 01:02:26,415
Mm-hmm.

1299
01:02:26,655 --> 01:02:31,455
Like my GoTo is a joke and like rerouting.

1300
01:02:31,455 --> 01:02:33,615
You know, like, lemme talk
about you, lemme talk about you.

1301
01:02:33,615 --> 01:02:36,140
Like don't, doesn't worry about
what I do, lemme talk about what

1302
01:02:36,145 --> 01:02:37,335
you do, let's talk about you.

1303
01:02:37,605 --> 01:02:40,275
But a lot of that's insecurity
or it was for me at the

1304
01:02:41,445 --> 01:02:41,925
Oh, I agree.

1305
01:02:42,105 --> 01:02:42,555
I agree.

1306
01:02:42,555 --> 01:02:44,775
I would just, I was never secure
enough to say I'm a podcaster.

1307
01:02:44,775 --> 01:02:46,725
I mean, I'm not Joe Rogan, right.

1308
01:02:47,205 --> 01:02:50,325
I'm, there's so many people that
can do this so much better than me.

1309
01:02:50,325 --> 01:02:50,565
Right.

1310
01:02:50,565 --> 01:02:54,165
So I'm not them in the same way that
Dean not a climber, I'm a New York

1311
01:02:54,165 --> 01:02:55,305
Times bestselling author.

1312
01:02:55,725 --> 01:02:56,115
Right.

1313
01:02:56,295 --> 01:02:58,695
I'll be happy if I sell a
thousand copies of this book.

1314
01:02:58,905 --> 01:03:02,355
But you know, figuring out where that
comfort level is and getting to that

1315
01:03:02,355 --> 01:03:04,005
point to say like, this is who I am.

1316
01:03:04,395 --> 01:03:05,295
I'm okay with that.

1317
01:03:05,505 --> 01:03:07,005
And I think it starts to unlock.

1318
01:03:07,650 --> 01:03:12,720
A lot, um, in that craft, whatever
craft or set of crafts that is,

1319
01:03:12,720 --> 01:03:14,580
or skills being able to say that.

1320
01:03:14,580 --> 01:03:17,940
And if you say like, I'm a
knowledge worker and you own it

1321
01:03:18,060 --> 01:03:19,170
and that is your life, great.

1322
01:03:19,470 --> 01:03:20,850
It just happens to not be me.

1323
01:03:21,420 --> 01:03:21,840
Um,

1324
01:03:22,560 --> 01:03:26,400
I think there's a lot of power in what you
just said there and I think the audience,

1325
01:03:26,430 --> 01:03:29,820
people listening to this, to the right
people that's gonna resonate with them.

1326
01:03:30,150 --> 01:03:30,390
Yep.

1327
01:03:30,990 --> 01:03:33,060
What does success look like to you?

1328
01:03:34,380 --> 01:03:37,140
You know, that that has
been an ever moving target.

1329
01:03:37,140 --> 01:03:41,700
I'd be a liar if I said like
success for me has absolutely

1330
01:03:41,700 --> 01:03:45,030
changed and made 180 degree turns
for every stage of life I'm in.

1331
01:03:45,450 --> 01:03:45,720
Mm-hmm.

1332
01:03:45,810 --> 01:03:50,070
You know, right now I've got three
kids, four and under, you know, success

1333
01:03:50,070 --> 01:03:57,000
for me is being a present father, a
good husband, and providing that's it.

1334
01:03:57,090 --> 01:03:57,840
Those three things.

1335
01:03:58,260 --> 01:04:01,830
That is success to me and I am succeeding
right now and I'm very happy with that.

1336
01:04:03,780 --> 01:04:04,290
I like that.

1337
01:04:04,680 --> 01:04:06,450
I've always defaulted to Earl Nightingale.

1338
01:04:06,450 --> 01:04:09,480
Success is a progressive realization
of a worthy ideal, right?

1339
01:04:09,900 --> 01:04:10,110
Yeah, it is.

1340
01:04:10,110 --> 01:04:13,890
'cause it's, it's a bit of a cop out,
it's a bit of a cop out deferring

1341
01:04:13,890 --> 01:04:15,600
to somebody else's definition.

1342
01:04:15,960 --> 01:04:16,920
But I agree with it.

1343
01:04:16,920 --> 01:04:20,010
It is something that you're
always working towards.

1344
01:04:20,040 --> 01:04:23,640
It will be a changing target,
uh, and different items will

1345
01:04:23,640 --> 01:04:26,280
be, uh, a measure of success.

1346
01:04:26,400 --> 01:04:26,490
Right.

1347
01:04:26,610 --> 01:04:27,240
Interesting.

1348
01:04:27,420 --> 01:04:27,840
Interesting.

1349
01:04:27,840 --> 01:04:31,920
That your success, like obviously I
want to be the best father I can be.

1350
01:04:31,950 --> 01:04:33,810
I wanna be the best
husband, the best friend.

1351
01:04:33,810 --> 01:04:38,460
I want to do what I can do, but that,
that all requires external things

1352
01:04:38,460 --> 01:04:42,360
as a indicator of my, my ability.

1353
01:04:42,780 --> 01:04:42,900
Yeah.

1354
01:04:43,110 --> 01:04:46,050
Um, do you have a definition
of success that doesn't have

1355
01:04:46,050 --> 01:04:47,340
those external indicators?

1356
01:04:48,450 --> 01:04:50,100
Man, that's a tough question.

1357
01:04:50,550 --> 01:04:52,620
I mean, all right.

1358
01:04:52,620 --> 01:04:57,600
Well, I'll say this, and this
is gonna be me really, truly

1359
01:04:57,600 --> 01:04:59,040
stepping outta my comfort zone.

1360
01:04:59,805 --> 01:05:03,015
Because this is something that I had a
hard time saying to my wife the other day.

1361
01:05:05,085 --> 01:05:07,815
I told her, you know, let
me give context for people.

1362
01:05:08,055 --> 01:05:14,654
The first book I wrote, 2017 to
date, that's from 2017 till now,

1363
01:05:14,775 --> 01:05:18,855
sold a whopping 90 copies, nine zero

1364
01:05:19,154 --> 01:05:19,485
mm.

1365
01:05:19,545 --> 01:05:21,285
Big fraction of that
is probably my family.

1366
01:05:22,125 --> 01:05:27,855
So, you know, it was a reality
of what it is to be a writer.

1367
01:05:28,634 --> 01:05:30,045
Now, turning Ferrell has done great.

1368
01:05:30,045 --> 01:05:34,935
It sold over 10,000 copies and
you know that, that I went into

1369
01:05:34,935 --> 01:05:36,285
that book with no expectations.

1370
01:05:36,435 --> 01:05:40,245
Mm. So 10,000 people have purchased
that book, maybe some smaller

1371
01:05:40,245 --> 01:05:41,325
number have actually read it.

1372
01:05:41,835 --> 01:05:44,805
It's gotten good reviews and all
that great success in my mind.

1373
01:05:44,924 --> 01:05:47,025
But again, I didn't have that in my head.

1374
01:05:47,025 --> 01:05:50,355
I was like, if I sell none or
I sell a million, I don't know.

1375
01:05:51,194 --> 01:05:55,005
With the trade gap, I told
my wife that I'm gonna sell a

1376
01:05:55,005 --> 01:05:56,235
million copies of this book.

1377
01:05:57,315 --> 01:05:58,005
I don't know.

1378
01:05:59,130 --> 01:06:02,190
What timeline that is, but I'm gonna
sell a million copies of this book.

1379
01:06:03,060 --> 01:06:07,980
Now, whether that's saying it and
manifesting it, uh, that's part of it.

1380
01:06:08,160 --> 01:06:11,009
But that, that is putting aside
those other external factors,

1381
01:06:11,009 --> 01:06:12,509
that's a measure of success for me.

1382
01:06:13,230 --> 01:06:15,630
Now, will I be a failure if I don't?

1383
01:06:15,990 --> 01:06:16,410
No.

1384
01:06:16,950 --> 01:06:19,800
So I have this kind of like
loose interpretation of success.

1385
01:06:19,800 --> 01:06:23,460
It's not like a hard number, but
that is a goal and that would be

1386
01:06:23,460 --> 01:06:25,950
real success for me if I did that

1387
01:06:27,840 --> 01:06:28,860
a million copies.

1388
01:06:29,070 --> 01:06:32,310
So you, I I have, I have zero doubt.

1389
01:06:32,310 --> 01:06:34,410
You can sell a million
copies of your book.

1390
01:06:34,440 --> 01:06:35,016
I appreciate that.

1391
01:06:35,021 --> 01:06:38,460
There's a, there's a few different
ways you can get there, and I like

1392
01:06:38,460 --> 01:06:39,450
the way that you're getting there.

1393
01:06:39,450 --> 01:06:42,180
I mean, like, you can price it out
of, uh, less than pennies on the

1394
01:06:42,180 --> 01:06:43,650
dollar and buy them yourself, right?

1395
01:06:43,650 --> 01:06:45,090
Hey, you got your million right?

1396
01:06:45,390 --> 01:06:46,950
But there's, uh.

1397
01:06:48,435 --> 01:06:53,085
But the concept that you're
relaying is something that's very

1398
01:06:53,174 --> 01:06:54,705
attractive to people right now.

1399
01:06:54,915 --> 01:06:54,975
Yeah.

1400
01:06:54,975 --> 01:06:59,955
People are looking for a way to be,
uh, not just to be self-sufficient,

1401
01:06:59,955 --> 01:07:03,975
but a way that they connect in the
world themselves and with others.

1402
01:07:04,214 --> 01:07:04,274
Yeah.

1403
01:07:04,305 --> 01:07:09,194
Because I think that that idea
of being happy is something

1404
01:07:09,194 --> 01:07:10,665
that appeals to a lot of people.

1405
01:07:10,754 --> 01:07:14,955
And I think a lot of the world
is waking up to happiness is

1406
01:07:15,044 --> 01:07:16,875
a byproduct of what you do.

1407
01:07:16,935 --> 01:07:19,665
It isn't a destination that you arrive at.

1408
01:07:20,234 --> 01:07:27,075
And the trade gap is something that
will allow people to find a path that

1409
01:07:27,285 --> 01:07:29,654
the byproduct of is gonna be happiness.

1410
01:07:29,955 --> 01:07:30,674
Yeah, I hope so.

1411
01:07:30,794 --> 01:07:34,305
And again, you know, it's, uh, not
everybody needs to stop what they're

1412
01:07:34,305 --> 01:07:35,625
doing and become an electrician.

1413
01:07:35,654 --> 01:07:37,935
It might be a great path,
but it might not be.

1414
01:07:38,384 --> 01:07:42,225
But there's zero downside to
spending some time to be more

1415
01:07:42,225 --> 01:07:44,774
self-reliant, to build some skills to.

1416
01:07:45,345 --> 01:07:49,815
Become a more well-rounded human in a
world where, at least in the Americas,

1417
01:07:49,815 --> 01:07:51,855
we have been pushed to do the opposite.

1418
01:07:52,185 --> 01:07:52,275
Mm-hmm.

1419
01:07:52,575 --> 01:07:57,165
To be specialist, to be, you
know, fully honed in on one craft

1420
01:07:57,165 --> 01:07:58,185
that could be gone tomorrow.

1421
01:07:59,715 --> 01:08:05,505
Do you think there's an under or
an overarching reason why in the

1422
01:08:05,505 --> 01:08:09,255
Americas people are pushed to,
uh, to go down that one path?

1423
01:08:09,765 --> 01:08:13,755
Do you think maybe like I, I do have a
tinfoil hat I haven't been able to use

1424
01:08:13,755 --> 01:08:17,085
yet, but do you have any, do you think
there might be a tinfoil hat reason?

1425
01:08:17,355 --> 01:08:17,955
There could be,

1426
01:08:17,955 --> 01:08:22,995
and I, I mean, it is less tinfoil Hattie
and more just like the actual history

1427
01:08:22,995 --> 01:08:29,444
in the us but um, I actually believe
that the path that we were setting

1428
01:08:29,444 --> 01:08:33,615
down on education wasn't ill-conceived.

1429
01:08:33,645 --> 01:08:37,095
I don't think there was malice
in the eighties when the push

1430
01:08:37,095 --> 01:08:42,705
started to go and degrade the
trades and pushed people towards.

1431
01:08:43,229 --> 01:08:44,040
Knowledge working.

1432
01:08:44,075 --> 01:08:45,630
I, I don't think that's the case.

1433
01:08:45,870 --> 01:08:48,510
I think there was a lot of historical
things, and I talk about it in

1434
01:08:48,510 --> 01:08:51,990
the book that happened, you know,
the No Child Left Behind Act.

1435
01:08:52,140 --> 01:08:54,479
There's a lot of stuff in the
nineties and the two thousands that

1436
01:08:54,479 --> 01:09:00,390
just kind of doubled down on pushing
the trades as a lesser than thing.

1437
01:09:00,390 --> 01:09:06,090
And now we're clearly, you
know, reaping what we sow in a

1438
01:09:06,090 --> 01:09:07,769
negative way across the country.

1439
01:09:08,040 --> 01:09:10,830
Um, but I don't think so.

1440
01:09:10,979 --> 01:09:15,750
I mean, I, I am too dumb to
speculate, uh, on that now.

1441
01:09:15,750 --> 01:09:19,050
I could, uh, and I think
a lot of people will.

1442
01:09:19,620 --> 01:09:19,710
Hmm.

1443
01:09:19,710 --> 01:09:24,540
But I think it's just a byproduct
of probably well-intentioned people

1444
01:09:24,540 --> 01:09:28,319
who just could not see in the
crystal ball what that really would

1445
01:09:28,319 --> 01:09:31,080
mean for us 20, 30 years from now.

1446
01:09:31,349 --> 01:09:34,140
And then again, I don't
think anybody quite saw.

1447
01:09:35,415 --> 01:09:36,195
AI going.

1448
01:09:36,195 --> 01:09:39,285
I've been in AI for the past 12 years and
it's always been like, we're almost there.

1449
01:09:39,285 --> 01:09:41,415
We're almost there all of a sudden
it's like, oh my God, we're here.

1450
01:09:41,475 --> 01:09:47,355
Like it's accessible, it's everyone
can access it and you know,

1451
01:09:47,355 --> 01:09:52,725
it's useful, it's scary, it's
nefarious, it's all of those things.

1452
01:09:52,905 --> 01:09:55,665
Mm. And we're trying to learn how
to operate within and I don't think

1453
01:09:55,665 --> 01:09:56,865
people could have seen that coming.

1454
01:09:58,395 --> 01:10:01,065
Is there anything that we
should be talking about that

1455
01:10:01,065 --> 01:10:02,265
we haven't talked about yet?

1456
01:10:03,405 --> 01:10:08,655
Um, I'll touch on one thing just
to kind of double down on it.

1457
01:10:08,655 --> 01:10:11,655
And you mentioned like, you know, the
two gentlemen you had on the podcast and

1458
01:10:11,655 --> 01:10:16,005
I listened to that episode, but talking
about mental health, like one of the

1459
01:10:16,005 --> 01:10:20,085
things that pushed me over the edge to
write the book, um, was a gentleman I

1460
01:10:20,085 --> 01:10:25,245
had worked with at a company, um, similar
backgrounds, but he was a data specialist.

1461
01:10:25,245 --> 01:10:29,685
He had specialized in, you
know, our particular data format

1462
01:10:29,685 --> 01:10:31,995
database, and he got laid off.

1463
01:10:32,519 --> 01:10:34,680
This was about a year
before I got laid off.

1464
01:10:35,340 --> 01:10:39,510
And you know, essentially that thing
he had spent his life learning,

1465
01:10:39,510 --> 01:10:44,160
or as at least his adult life
learning was no longer needed.

1466
01:10:44,340 --> 01:10:44,640
Right?

1467
01:10:44,640 --> 01:10:48,600
It was obsolete, which is gonna be
the continued trend of a lot of these

1468
01:10:48,600 --> 01:10:51,750
different languages for engineers,
for database engineers, et cetera.

1469
01:10:52,650 --> 01:10:57,000
And the long story made sure is he
took his life, two young kids and

1470
01:10:57,000 --> 01:10:59,490
a wife, why he couldn't find a job.

1471
01:10:59,610 --> 01:11:04,320
Now, I'm sure there might be other factors
at play there that I am not aware of,

1472
01:11:04,320 --> 01:11:08,400
but you know, I do know that he put a
gun in his mouth and pulled a trigger

1473
01:11:08,400 --> 01:11:13,470
with two young kids and a wife because
he felt like he could not provide.

1474
01:11:13,830 --> 01:11:14,160
Hmm.

1475
01:11:14,670 --> 01:11:21,960
And you know, I know the guy or knew him
like he wasn't incapable of re-skilling.

1476
01:11:22,769 --> 01:11:27,210
But I think that I, speaking
from experience in a layoff like.

1477
01:11:28,785 --> 01:11:31,455
I look back on it, I'm like, yeah,
I had 11 months of unemployment.

1478
01:11:31,755 --> 01:11:36,075
But in those 11 months I felt so
much, I felt more pressure with

1479
01:11:36,075 --> 01:11:39,345
young kids to provide and figure
out a way to make this happen.

1480
01:11:39,555 --> 01:11:43,155
And nothing in my traditional
role was working out.

1481
01:11:43,455 --> 01:11:47,175
I'd get the final interviews, they'd
pull recs, they'd do all this stuff,

1482
01:11:47,445 --> 01:11:52,665
and it felt terrible and it felt
endless, and I really didn't know.

1483
01:11:52,665 --> 01:11:56,925
I'm like, I don't know if I
will be able to get a job in

1484
01:11:56,925 --> 01:11:59,385
this, you know, community again.

1485
01:12:00,255 --> 01:12:03,405
And that's what led me to start,
obviously the trapping and

1486
01:12:03,675 --> 01:12:04,995
taxidermy's, what floated us.

1487
01:12:04,995 --> 01:12:06,615
But that's when I started
night welding school.

1488
01:12:06,615 --> 01:12:11,115
I'm like, I have to be able to do
something that pays more than being

1489
01:12:11,115 --> 01:12:13,455
a, you know, a stocker at a store.

1490
01:12:13,605 --> 01:12:14,835
Which again, that's great.

1491
01:12:14,835 --> 01:12:17,625
There's nothing wrong with that,
but I want to hedge against it.

1492
01:12:17,625 --> 01:12:21,014
So I think the mental health aspect,
I think we're unfortunately gonna

1493
01:12:21,014 --> 01:12:26,805
see more and more of that as we have
ultimately skill people who are, you know.

1494
01:12:27,210 --> 01:12:33,510
Made redundant through AI that are gonna
be sitting there on their butts hoping

1495
01:12:33,510 --> 01:12:35,100
for something to change and it's not.

1496
01:12:35,160 --> 01:12:38,730
And they're gonna have to take that
initiative to learn these new things.

1497
01:12:39,060 --> 01:12:42,780
And that's why I say knowledge workers
get ahead of it, hedge against it,

1498
01:12:42,780 --> 01:12:44,370
start learning stuff on the side.

1499
01:12:44,550 --> 01:12:46,380
'cause you never know when
that hammer's gonna drop.

1500
01:12:46,740 --> 01:12:48,270
Mm. Yeah.

1501
01:12:48,270 --> 01:12:50,640
That's a, it is an important story.

1502
01:12:50,640 --> 01:12:55,110
And you know, as you get older
you learn things differently.

1503
01:12:55,440 --> 01:12:55,530
Yeah.

1504
01:12:55,530 --> 01:12:59,190
I'm not gonna say you don't learn things
as well, but you learn things differently.

1505
01:12:59,250 --> 01:13:02,940
And some people fall into this
trap of doing the same thing over

1506
01:13:02,940 --> 01:13:07,800
and over again and thinking, this
is what I am, this is what I do,

1507
01:13:07,890 --> 01:13:10,650
and I can't do this other thing.

1508
01:13:10,650 --> 01:13:12,060
I mean, it's, it's overwhelming.

1509
01:13:12,060 --> 01:13:14,790
It's a, it's illusory and
it's it's effect to me.

1510
01:13:15,645 --> 01:13:20,295
I remember, uh, the Adobe suite and
I'd watch people using it, and I'm

1511
01:13:20,295 --> 01:13:23,025
like, there's no way in hell I'm
ever gonna be able to learn how to

1512
01:13:23,025 --> 01:13:27,765
edit a photo or a video or be able to
edit audio or do any of these things

1513
01:13:27,765 --> 01:13:29,445
that this whole Adobe Suite does.

1514
01:13:29,445 --> 01:13:31,095
It's, it is just, it's too much.

1515
01:13:31,095 --> 01:13:32,295
It's a completely different language.

1516
01:13:32,295 --> 01:13:33,465
I can't learn another language.

1517
01:13:33,465 --> 01:13:33,825
Right?

1518
01:13:34,035 --> 01:13:34,455
Yep.

1519
01:13:34,995 --> 01:13:37,905
And at some point something clicked.

1520
01:13:37,935 --> 01:13:41,175
It was because I was pushed to a
point, there's a lot of negativity

1521
01:13:41,175 --> 01:13:46,095
in my industry and I was looking at
like, this is what I know is what I've

1522
01:13:46,095 --> 01:13:48,135
done since I've been four years old.

1523
01:13:48,135 --> 01:13:49,635
Guns or what I know, right?

1524
01:13:49,635 --> 01:13:53,565
And, uh, I either do something
else or I find a way to bring

1525
01:13:53,565 --> 01:13:55,335
positivity into this industry.

1526
01:13:55,365 --> 01:13:59,775
And, uh, there is some inspiration
through other YouTubers and

1527
01:13:59,955 --> 01:14:01,485
individuals out there doing stuff.

1528
01:14:01,485 --> 01:14:04,905
And I thought, if they
can do it, I can do it.

1529
01:14:05,415 --> 01:14:09,645
And I started sitting down, not
only learning another language,

1530
01:14:09,645 --> 01:14:13,575
but learning, uh, the Tobi language
in putting this stuff out there.

1531
01:14:14,175 --> 01:14:17,745
And it just, it provides you more options.

1532
01:14:17,775 --> 01:14:21,045
And I think if someone's gonna be
taking their life, it's because

1533
01:14:21,045 --> 01:14:24,765
they've come to a point where that's
in their head at that time, the

1534
01:14:24,765 --> 01:14:27,285
best viable option that they have.

1535
01:14:27,405 --> 01:14:29,475
They don't have all these other
options on the table that they

1536
01:14:29,475 --> 01:14:31,395
can readily see they're there.

1537
01:14:31,725 --> 01:14:37,605
But just like Adobe was always there and
I could have always looked at that, unless

1538
01:14:37,605 --> 01:14:42,345
you've touched in it and worked on it,
it doesn't seem palpable or real to you.

1539
01:14:43,030 --> 01:14:43,250
And,

1540
01:14:43,275 --> 01:14:48,255
and I think that's a hope for me, you
know, selfishly with the book is somebody

1541
01:14:48,255 --> 01:14:51,735
who might not have that clarity of
vision to say, there are these things

1542
01:14:51,735 --> 01:14:57,105
out there that I could touch and I could
learn that they might at least have the

1543
01:14:57,105 --> 01:15:00,255
curtain pulled back to be like, yeah,
there are more options for me out there.

1544
01:15:00,405 --> 01:15:00,855
Um.

1545
01:15:01,349 --> 01:15:03,599
If whatever I'm currently
doing doesn't work out,

1546
01:15:04,710 --> 01:15:09,059
you know, different professions, they
have, uh, statistics that go with them.

1547
01:15:09,059 --> 01:15:13,230
I think policing, they say it's one of the
highest divorce rates for a profession.

1548
01:15:13,230 --> 01:15:15,839
And yeah, dentists are
the highest suicide rate.

1549
01:15:15,839 --> 01:15:19,019
And yeah, uh, psychologists
or psychiatrists are the

1550
01:15:19,080 --> 01:15:20,400
highest depression rate.

1551
01:15:20,400 --> 01:15:26,519
And I was talking to a psychiatrist
one time and asking about that, the,

1552
01:15:26,610 --> 01:15:28,559
the depression rate and all the rest.

1553
01:15:28,559 --> 01:15:31,320
And like, is that like you're listening
to people's problems all day long?

1554
01:15:31,320 --> 01:15:34,530
Is this something that you're,
uh, that you have to work with?

1555
01:15:34,530 --> 01:15:38,129
And he's like, so he talked about
it from his perspective, but he also

1556
01:15:38,129 --> 01:15:42,030
shifted it and you talked about,
um, suicidal ideation and people

1557
01:15:42,030 --> 01:15:45,690
who are at a point where they feel
like they need to commit suicide.

1558
01:15:45,990 --> 01:15:47,070
I said, well, what do you tell 'em?

1559
01:15:47,790 --> 01:15:50,280
And he says, you know, I
haven't lost a person yet.

1560
01:15:50,549 --> 01:15:51,599
Uh, knock on wood.

1561
01:15:51,929 --> 01:15:53,160
And I tell 'em the same thing.

1562
01:15:53,610 --> 01:15:54,179
You know what?

1563
01:15:54,839 --> 01:15:56,610
Maybe killing yourself's the right idea.

1564
01:15:57,120 --> 01:15:58,470
Maybe that's the option.

1565
01:15:58,470 --> 01:16:00,000
Maybe that's a route you have to go.

1566
01:16:00,180 --> 01:16:03,870
But right now, that's not the
decision you should be making because

1567
01:16:03,870 --> 01:16:07,020
you're not in the right mindset
to make that logical decision.

1568
01:16:07,350 --> 01:16:12,060
It says give it a month or two, come
back and we will reanalyze this.

1569
01:16:12,060 --> 01:16:15,510
And if it's in fact still the right
decision, okay, then we can look at

1570
01:16:15,510 --> 01:16:17,490
options for, uh, what you gotta do here.

1571
01:16:17,490 --> 01:16:17,790
Right?

1572
01:16:18,300 --> 01:16:23,160
But that allows him to buy time for the
individual and that mindset that the

1573
01:16:23,160 --> 01:16:27,330
person's in where everything's cloudy
and they can't see those other options.

1574
01:16:27,570 --> 01:16:29,910
It's amazing what a good
night's sleep can do.

1575
01:16:29,910 --> 01:16:34,380
It's amazing what a bit of exercise and
going for a walk, what limiting negative

1576
01:16:34,380 --> 01:16:40,050
substances, alcohol, drugs, the social
media, endless scrolling all the rest and

1577
01:16:40,200 --> 01:16:42,660
put yourself into a different perspective.

1578
01:16:42,690 --> 01:16:44,310
And I think that's what
the psychologists do.

1579
01:16:44,340 --> 01:16:48,270
Like really all they the good ones
will ever do is provide a different

1580
01:16:48,270 --> 01:16:50,280
perspective, a different option for you.

1581
01:16:50,430 --> 01:16:54,180
So I, I think the, when you
say selling a million copies.

1582
01:16:54,585 --> 01:16:58,935
I think that mental health aspect
to this is exactly why people

1583
01:16:58,965 --> 01:17:00,795
will want to read the trade gap.

1584
01:17:01,515 --> 01:17:02,145
I really hope so.

1585
01:17:02,145 --> 01:17:03,645
But man, Travis, this was awesome.

1586
01:17:04,455 --> 01:17:05,715
Thank you so much Zach.

1587
01:17:05,775 --> 01:17:08,295
I really appreciate you being on
the podcast again and I'm looking

1588
01:17:08,295 --> 01:17:10,065
forward to you coming up into bc.

1589
01:17:10,395 --> 01:17:11,415
We're gonna have to get you up here.

1590
01:17:11,415 --> 01:17:11,475
We

1591
01:17:11,475 --> 01:17:14,325
gotta go bear hunt or do
something up there pretty soon.

1592
01:17:14,475 --> 01:17:15,465
A hundred percent.

1593
01:17:15,675 --> 01:17:18,885
You know, the, those Idaho boys
are always looking for the, uh,

1594
01:17:18,885 --> 01:17:21,405
the jet black bears and us up here.

1595
01:17:21,405 --> 01:17:23,325
We're like, oh, we're
looking for the color phase.

1596
01:17:23,595 --> 01:17:25,695
So, uh, can definitely help
you out on the jet lights

1597
01:17:25,695 --> 01:17:25,845
trade.

1598
01:17:25,845 --> 01:17:28,875
You come down, we'll shoot a cinnamon
bear down here and then I'll go up

1599
01:17:28,875 --> 01:17:30,435
and we can, uh, find a something.

1600
01:17:30,435 --> 01:17:31,665
Jet Black up in Canada.

1601
01:17:31,935 --> 01:17:32,475
Done deal.

1602
01:17:32,505 --> 01:17:33,705
Zach, thanks so much.

1603
01:17:33,705 --> 01:17:35,025
It was a pleasure as always.

1604
01:17:35,475 --> 01:17:35,685
Yeah.

1605
01:17:35,685 --> 01:17:36,045
Appreciate

1606
01:17:36,045 --> 01:17:36,225
it.