1 00:00:05,250 --> 00:00:07,789 Nathalie Dowgray: Hello, welcome to the December 2023 2 00:00:07,789 --> 00:00:09,730 episode of Chattering with ISFM. 3 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:14,080 I'm Nathalie Dowgray, Head of ISFM, and host of this month's podcast. 4 00:00:15,150 --> 00:00:18,509 For December, we're going to be focusing on the JFMS Special Collection, and 5 00:00:18,509 --> 00:00:20,270 that's on accessible veterinary care. 6 00:00:21,070 --> 00:00:22,569 Firstly, I'm speaking with Dr. 7 00:00:22,570 --> 00:00:25,910 Linda Jacobson, and she's our special guest editor of this collection. 8 00:00:26,820 --> 00:00:29,630 And then in the second interview, I'm going to be joined by my colleague at 9 00:00:29,700 --> 00:00:31,610 International Cat Care, Vicky Halls. 10 00:00:32,229 --> 00:00:33,600 She's our Head of Unowned Cats. 11 00:00:34,525 --> 00:00:35,695 And we're going to be speaking with Dr. 12 00:00:35,695 --> 00:00:39,985 Gemma Ma on her paper, Characteristics of Cat Semi Owners. 13 00:00:45,135 --> 00:00:46,295 So welcome everybody. 14 00:00:46,325 --> 00:00:49,594 And I'd like to welcome my special guest today, Linda Jacobson. 15 00:00:50,074 --> 00:00:53,515 And when we started the special collection, I think it took us a 16 00:00:53,515 --> 00:00:57,415 while to agree that accessible care was going to be the best title. 17 00:00:57,694 --> 00:01:01,625 Would you be able to explain what was meant by the term and what the scope of 18 00:01:01,625 --> 00:01:03,435 the special collection was going to be? 19 00:01:04,220 --> 00:01:08,080 Linda Jacobson: We talked about calling it affordable care versus accessible 20 00:01:08,090 --> 00:01:13,340 care and ended up choosing accessible care because what we're really looking 21 00:01:13,369 --> 00:01:18,149 at is perhaps not so much access to care as barriers to access to care. 22 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:22,109 Among those barriers, affordability is really important one, 23 00:01:22,110 --> 00:01:23,180 but there are many others. 24 00:01:23,509 --> 00:01:26,910 We found there were many other barriers to care that included fear of being 25 00:01:26,910 --> 00:01:30,705 judged, veterinarians not taking new patients, not knowing where to 26 00:01:30,705 --> 00:01:34,815 go, language barriers, transport, and then lack of a leash or carrier. 27 00:01:34,865 --> 00:01:39,154 I'd lastly just say that I think it's a mistake to think that barriers 28 00:01:39,155 --> 00:01:41,045 live in isolation from one another. 29 00:01:41,135 --> 00:01:42,304 They're often interlinked. 30 00:01:42,305 --> 00:01:45,734 In Canada, we have a very substantial geographic barriers. 31 00:01:45,835 --> 00:01:50,125 We have some communities that are extremely remote and have no veterinarians 32 00:01:50,295 --> 00:01:51,695 and often no veterinary care. 33 00:01:52,065 --> 00:01:55,804 When they do have access to veterinary care, that's often clinics that go in 34 00:01:55,815 --> 00:01:57,955 once or twice a year to do vaccinations. 35 00:01:57,975 --> 00:01:59,825 So very limited access to care. 36 00:01:59,885 --> 00:02:05,175 Even in more affluent communities in Canada, sometimes there are three, four, 37 00:02:05,175 --> 00:02:09,414 five hour drives to certain types of care, particularly emergency clinics. 38 00:02:09,425 --> 00:02:12,774 Nathalie Dowgray: And I guess we also have to think about cat factors as well. 39 00:02:13,465 --> 00:02:17,495 There are a lot of cats that they themselves are the physical barrier 40 00:02:17,555 --> 00:02:19,275 from going to the vet clinic too. 41 00:02:19,335 --> 00:02:23,815 It's something that both ourselves at ISFM and our colleagues at AAFP recognise 42 00:02:24,035 --> 00:02:28,225 with our Cat Friendly Clinic and Cat Friendly Practice programs that creating 43 00:02:28,225 --> 00:02:33,040 an environment that doesn't put the cat and the cat owner off coming back 44 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:35,070 to the vet can be quite important too. 45 00:02:35,549 --> 00:02:36,339 Linda Jacobson: Yes, absolutely. 46 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:41,160 And it's a reason that this collection belongs so nicely inside 47 00:02:41,189 --> 00:02:45,440 the Journal of Feline Medicine and Surgery simply because cats lack 48 00:02:45,459 --> 00:02:47,300 access to care compared with dogs. 49 00:02:47,690 --> 00:02:50,740 We're hoping that the cat friendly practices will 50 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:52,500 start to help close that gap. 51 00:02:52,660 --> 00:02:55,510 The other factor is that cats are so good at hiding illness. 52 00:02:56,110 --> 00:02:59,430 So if they aren't receiving regular preventive care and people are only 53 00:02:59,430 --> 00:03:02,090 taking their cat to the vet when they're sick, that would mean that 54 00:03:02,090 --> 00:03:06,550 many cats would not be seen until the illness is quite far advanced. 55 00:03:06,730 --> 00:03:10,860 It's very interesting in our survey, something like 10 to 12 percent of 56 00:03:10,860 --> 00:03:15,540 respondents said that the barrier to accessing care was fear of being judged. 57 00:03:16,090 --> 00:03:20,640 So the concern is that if people wait too long, either because they haven't 58 00:03:20,640 --> 00:03:24,780 realised the cat is sick, or because they felt that they couldn't afford the care, 59 00:03:24,780 --> 00:03:28,880 but then they get to a point where it's urgent, that they may still not access 60 00:03:28,910 --> 00:03:30,860 care because of a fear of being judged. 61 00:03:31,230 --> 00:03:34,299 Nathalie Dowgray: During COVID, there was more demand on services. 62 00:03:34,519 --> 00:03:38,629 I'm really interested to know what sort of impact that has had on the work that 63 00:03:38,750 --> 00:03:41,460 you guys do at the Toronto Humane Society. 64 00:03:42,060 --> 00:03:45,595 Linda Jacobson: So in terms of the impact of the pandemic and what we've 65 00:03:45,595 --> 00:03:50,285 been seeing after the pandemic, there are really three big factors at play. 66 00:03:50,644 --> 00:03:52,984 One is the veterinary capacity shortage. 67 00:03:53,064 --> 00:03:56,874 There's also shrinking of disposable income because of escalating housing 68 00:03:56,885 --> 00:04:01,134 costs, food costs, inflation, and then growing inequality in many countries. 69 00:04:01,790 --> 00:04:05,799 And then veterinary costs have far outstripped inflation from the 70 00:04:05,810 --> 00:04:07,750 perspective of the Toronto Humane Society. 71 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:11,890 We've seen a real crisis in the city post pandemic with pet caregivers 72 00:04:12,209 --> 00:04:16,779 really struggling to find a lot of different needs for their pets, not just 73 00:04:16,790 --> 00:04:19,510 veterinary care, but veterinary care being a really important one of them. 74 00:04:19,540 --> 00:04:24,830 As an organisation, we have really been shifting to a much more proactive 75 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:30,700 approach to pet human families, not just accepting that relinquishment is the 76 00:04:30,730 --> 00:04:33,160 solution to caregivers who are struggling. 77 00:04:33,630 --> 00:04:37,450 So we start off with our Pet Parent Support Network, where we try 78 00:04:37,450 --> 00:04:40,340 and understand what the problem is and whether we can help to 79 00:04:40,340 --> 00:04:41,950 keep that pet in its loving home. 80 00:04:42,349 --> 00:04:43,640 We do some counselling. 81 00:04:43,659 --> 00:04:46,700 We have training services that can sometimes help people. 82 00:04:46,939 --> 00:04:50,609 We can offer food carriers and other kinds of support as well 83 00:04:50,609 --> 00:04:52,179 as preventive veterinary care. 84 00:04:52,849 --> 00:04:56,770 And then we also have an urgent care foster program where if people are in 85 00:04:56,840 --> 00:05:01,730 temporary trouble, we can foster their pet for six months and sometimes up to a 86 00:05:01,730 --> 00:05:03,780 year while they get back on their feet. 87 00:05:04,305 --> 00:05:08,335 We have a really sad cat story that happened recently where we were sent a 88 00:05:08,335 --> 00:05:13,285 photograph by an older man of him and his cat, and he said he was about to be 89 00:05:13,285 --> 00:05:18,784 evicted and that he wanted us to help his cat by finding a foster home for her 90 00:05:19,175 --> 00:05:22,645 because he was worried that she wasn't going to be able to withstand the cold. 91 00:05:22,994 --> 00:05:26,775 And there we were thinking, what is this poor man going to do in the cold? 92 00:05:27,265 --> 00:05:31,585 So one of the things we've done is we've hired a veterinary social worker and 93 00:05:32,115 --> 00:05:36,375 she actually has very good connections with agencies in the city, and hopefully 94 00:05:36,445 --> 00:05:39,755 we'll be able to reach out to them and see if we can actually help this 95 00:05:39,785 --> 00:05:42,235 person as well as just helping his cat. 96 00:05:42,885 --> 00:05:43,015 Nathalie Dowgray: Brilliant. 97 00:05:43,045 --> 00:05:47,335 That's really interesting and, and really interesting to hear this, the proactive 98 00:05:47,375 --> 00:05:49,544 approach that, that you guys are taking. 99 00:05:49,990 --> 00:05:52,570 I just picked up on a term that you mentioned there around 100 00:05:52,590 --> 00:05:53,789 a veterinary social worker. 101 00:05:54,530 --> 00:05:58,900 Would you be able to just briefly tell me what that sort of skill set looks like? 102 00:05:59,260 --> 00:06:02,390 Linda Jacobson: We work at the interface of people and animals, and 103 00:06:02,390 --> 00:06:04,419 we're pretty good at the animal side. 104 00:06:04,989 --> 00:06:08,140 And there's a lot we don't know about the human side because that 105 00:06:08,140 --> 00:06:09,620 wasn't what we were trained to do. 106 00:06:10,090 --> 00:06:12,890 So veterinary social workers at the organisational level, they 107 00:06:12,890 --> 00:06:16,109 can help staff with stress, compassion and fatigue and burnout. 108 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:21,040 And those types of issues, and they can also help both staff and clients with 109 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:23,260 grief counselling in shelter environments. 110 00:06:23,260 --> 00:06:26,089 That's really important because people become very attached 111 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:27,320 to the animals in our care. 112 00:06:27,929 --> 00:06:32,829 And then they also act as an interface between us and people who 113 00:06:32,829 --> 00:06:36,940 are in trouble and the agencies in the city who support those people. 114 00:06:36,970 --> 00:06:40,810 For many people in those kinds of circumstance, what keeps 115 00:06:40,810 --> 00:06:43,920 them alive and what gives them something to live for is their pet. 116 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:48,419 And that's where we can step in through our veterinary social worker and 117 00:06:48,419 --> 00:06:50,500 really help to maintain those bonds. 118 00:06:51,830 --> 00:06:52,260 Nathalie Dowgray: Brilliant. 119 00:06:52,260 --> 00:06:54,160 I think that is really important, isn't it? 120 00:06:54,210 --> 00:06:58,059 One of the biggest barriers for people that are homelessness in terms of seeking 121 00:06:58,060 --> 00:07:02,559 out shelters is often they don't want to lose their pet if they actually go into 122 00:07:02,559 --> 00:07:04,840 it a more suitable accommodation for them. 123 00:07:04,860 --> 00:07:06,540 So it is such an important piece of work. 124 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:09,500 So thank you so much for all of your work. 125 00:07:09,780 --> 00:07:10,580 Linda Jacobson: You're very welcome. 126 00:07:10,580 --> 00:07:11,140 Thank you. 127 00:07:12,140 --> 00:07:15,270 Nathalie Dowgray: And now Vicky Halls and Gemma Ma are going to join me and we're 128 00:07:15,409 --> 00:07:18,139 going to be talking about cat semi owners. 129 00:07:18,139 --> 00:07:21,149 So firstly, Gemma, what I found really interesting in your paper is this 130 00:07:21,169 --> 00:07:23,859 sort of concept of semi ownership. 131 00:07:24,215 --> 00:07:27,085 Why did you think they were an important group to understand? 132 00:07:27,085 --> 00:07:28,734 What's different about semi owners? 133 00:07:28,874 --> 00:07:31,194 Gemma Ma: This is behaviour that we've observed in our 134 00:07:31,194 --> 00:07:32,514 shelters for a really long time. 135 00:07:32,514 --> 00:07:35,265 We know that people have relationships with stray cats, but 136 00:07:35,365 --> 00:07:36,915 they don't consider they own them. 137 00:07:37,015 --> 00:07:40,615 We have, in our community, lots of people are really worried about wildlife. 138 00:07:40,784 --> 00:07:43,734 They really are worried about the impact that cats have on wildlife. 139 00:07:43,784 --> 00:07:47,264 This is interesting because semi owners are a population that we found in this 140 00:07:47,274 --> 00:07:51,995 study that have really different beliefs about cats, they're less concerned 141 00:07:52,005 --> 00:07:55,565 about the impacts they have on wildlife, they're more likely to believe that 142 00:07:55,565 --> 00:07:58,835 cats should be allowed to roam and that they shouldn't be contained. 143 00:07:59,325 --> 00:08:02,795 So they're a bit different to the rest of the cat owning community 144 00:08:02,815 --> 00:08:06,855 and the rest of the Australian community, but they're also a group 145 00:08:06,855 --> 00:08:08,735 who obviously really care about cats. 146 00:08:08,735 --> 00:08:13,705 They love cats, they really prioritise cat well being and welfare, which is 147 00:08:13,804 --> 00:08:17,525 really interesting because it creates this polarization in Australia, between the 148 00:08:17,525 --> 00:08:21,705 people who are semi owners or the people who really support the semi owners and 149 00:08:21,705 --> 00:08:26,764 love the cats and the ecologists and the wildlife conservationists, but the good 150 00:08:26,764 --> 00:08:31,745 news is that when it all boils down, the objectives on all the sides are the same, 151 00:08:32,245 --> 00:08:37,284 that we all believe that there are no cats left living these difficult lives on the 152 00:08:37,284 --> 00:08:39,025 streets with no one looking after them. 153 00:08:39,635 --> 00:08:44,599 We have to find a way to get these two groups of people who disagree to work 154 00:08:44,599 --> 00:08:48,240 together towards the same objective of actually just getting all these cats 155 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:50,240 into homes and looked after properly. 156 00:08:51,230 --> 00:08:52,689 Nathalie Dowgray: Vicky, I don't know if you had some 157 00:08:52,689 --> 00:08:54,520 questions around that as well. 158 00:08:54,599 --> 00:08:55,969 I'll hand over to you if you want. 159 00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:59,139 Vicky Halls: You were very specific in your paper, which I really liked 160 00:08:59,139 --> 00:09:02,390 about categorising cats differently. 161 00:09:02,439 --> 00:09:05,449 And I know that in different parts of the world, we use these same 162 00:09:05,459 --> 00:09:09,119 words, but we don't use them to describe the same type of cat. 163 00:09:09,910 --> 00:09:12,129 Gemma Ma: Definitions are so important. 164 00:09:12,755 --> 00:09:17,015 I think what is less important is the actual words that are used are 165 00:09:17,015 --> 00:09:19,915 less important than how they're defined and making sure that they're 166 00:09:19,915 --> 00:09:23,475 defined really clearly and in a way that's relevant to management. 167 00:09:23,995 --> 00:09:27,045 The important point to consider is that all the cats in Australia 168 00:09:27,105 --> 00:09:28,504 are essentially the same. 169 00:09:28,725 --> 00:09:31,194 They are the same species. 170 00:09:31,194 --> 00:09:34,615 We don't have great genetic data, but what we do have suggests that these 171 00:09:34,615 --> 00:09:38,665 are one continuous population, all the cats in Australia, the difference 172 00:09:39,395 --> 00:09:41,185 is in their relationship with people. 173 00:09:41,675 --> 00:09:44,905 So some cats have no relationship with people whatsoever. 174 00:09:44,955 --> 00:09:48,995 They're living as wild creatures in the bush, living off their own instincts, 175 00:09:49,125 --> 00:09:50,784 no support from people whatsoever. 176 00:09:51,185 --> 00:09:52,705 We call those feral cats. 177 00:09:53,345 --> 00:09:57,585 And then we have ones who have an indirect relationship with people or people who 178 00:09:57,585 --> 00:09:58,935 don't consider themselves the owner. 179 00:09:58,935 --> 00:10:01,705 So we refer to them as unowned cats. 180 00:10:02,785 --> 00:10:04,305 Often they're called stray cats. 181 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:08,400 I think that can be a useful term as well, because it's very commonly used 182 00:10:08,449 --> 00:10:12,620 in the community and lots of people understand that as a reference to an 183 00:10:12,630 --> 00:10:18,324 unowned cat, but I think the problem with using stray as a term, is that it can 184 00:10:18,324 --> 00:10:23,094 also describe the cat's behaviour rather than its actual relationship with people. 185 00:10:23,524 --> 00:10:28,274 And then a stray cat, a cat that's roaming in the street, for example, 186 00:10:28,285 --> 00:10:31,425 could be a feral cat, it could be an unowned cat, it could be an owned cat. 187 00:10:31,744 --> 00:10:36,224 And you don't know, but it's straying, it's roaming in the streets. 188 00:10:36,734 --> 00:10:41,324 I think it's very important that the current threat, the draft updated threat 189 00:10:41,354 --> 00:10:46,925 abatement plan, has divided cats into a binary of feral cats and pet cats, 190 00:10:47,505 --> 00:10:50,515 which I think is very problematic. 191 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:53,700 That third category in between is missing. 192 00:10:53,750 --> 00:10:57,570 The unowned population in between the feral cats and the owned cat is the 193 00:10:57,570 --> 00:11:00,199 key to managing cats in Australia. 194 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:03,010 The narrative generally is if you're feeding stray cats, 195 00:11:03,010 --> 00:11:04,119 you're making the problem worse. 196 00:11:04,119 --> 00:11:08,149 Just don't feed them, which is really unhelpful advice because if 197 00:11:08,149 --> 00:11:10,490 you've got a hungry cat in front of you, it's really hard to just 198 00:11:10,550 --> 00:11:11,810 let them starve on your doorstep. 199 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:16,350 So trying to stop this compassionate behaviour without providing an alternative 200 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:18,330 for that animal is really problematic. 201 00:11:18,989 --> 00:11:21,089 And it's going to make it harder to work with the semi owners. 202 00:11:21,785 --> 00:11:26,095 And it's also going to create this huge barrier for the semi owners to take on 203 00:11:26,175 --> 00:11:30,005 official responsibility for the care of the cats that they're looking after. 204 00:11:30,425 --> 00:11:33,845 Because if they have to become an owner in, inverted commas, 205 00:11:33,974 --> 00:11:35,584 that can be impossible for them. 206 00:11:35,604 --> 00:11:39,645 Often people who are semi owners are semi owners because they can't take on 207 00:11:40,015 --> 00:11:43,304 ownership officially of the cat, whether they're in accommodation that doesn't 208 00:11:43,304 --> 00:11:47,585 allow pet ownership, whether they don't have the financial resources to commit to 209 00:11:47,585 --> 00:11:49,974 all the obligations of having a pet cat. 210 00:11:50,455 --> 00:11:53,815 A whole bunch of different reasons, but I think we want to remove as 211 00:11:53,815 --> 00:11:56,815 many barriers as we can to getting these cats looked after properly. 212 00:11:56,995 --> 00:11:58,744 Vicky Halls: I think that's a really interesting point. 213 00:11:58,795 --> 00:12:03,004 It's then difficult to engage with those people at all, if they then feel 214 00:12:03,004 --> 00:12:04,615 that they're doing something illegal. 215 00:12:04,665 --> 00:12:06,854 Gemma Ma: In our experience, there's a whole bunch of different categories, 216 00:12:06,864 --> 00:12:08,284 different types of semi owners. 217 00:12:08,335 --> 00:12:10,615 There are the people who just have one cat who turns up on their 218 00:12:10,615 --> 00:12:11,985 doorstep and they look after it. 219 00:12:11,995 --> 00:12:15,575 There's the people who have 50 at their house, but they 220 00:12:15,605 --> 00:12:18,815 consider them to be unowned cats, but they look after them all. 221 00:12:19,449 --> 00:12:22,219 There are the people who travel out of area and all over the place, feeding 222 00:12:22,219 --> 00:12:24,650 different colonies in different locations. 223 00:12:24,660 --> 00:12:27,239 And they do that, they spend huge amounts of their own time and 224 00:12:27,250 --> 00:12:30,579 money looking after these cats who are not their responsibility. 225 00:12:30,930 --> 00:12:32,530 I say they're all united. 226 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:36,150 They're not just empathetic, but they're acting compassionately on 227 00:12:36,150 --> 00:12:38,970 their empathy for these creatures that are seen in front of them. 228 00:12:39,340 --> 00:12:41,030 And they're actually a huge resource. 229 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:45,360 They really care and they can really help with cat management intervention. 230 00:12:45,380 --> 00:12:49,344 We're actually working, we've got 11 of these desexing programs 231 00:12:49,344 --> 00:12:51,365 that we're running right now. 232 00:12:51,365 --> 00:12:54,275 We're heading into our second year at the moment. 233 00:12:54,295 --> 00:12:58,875 So, collecting lots of data and we'll be writing this up eventually. 234 00:12:59,155 --> 00:12:59,944 Watch this space. 235 00:13:01,390 --> 00:13:02,460 Vicky Halls: That is very exciting. 236 00:13:08,850 --> 00:13:09,700 Nathalie Dowgray: Thank you for listening. 237 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:13,710 The Accessible Care Special Issue is available on the JFMS website. 238 00:13:14,140 --> 00:13:16,200 We hope you'll find it a useful collection. 239 00:13:17,070 --> 00:13:20,619 If you're an ISFM member, don't forget you can access the full version of 240 00:13:20,630 --> 00:13:24,799 the podcast and all the other ISFM member benefits including congress 241 00:13:24,799 --> 00:13:29,520 recordings, monthly webinars and clinical clubs, the discussion forum, and much 242 00:13:29,540 --> 00:13:33,050 much more at portal.icatcare.org. 243 00:13:33,070 --> 00:13:35,830 We'll be back again next month with our regular monthly chattering. 244 00:13:36,190 --> 00:13:38,960 If you don't want to miss out, do make sure you've signed up to Chattering with 245 00:13:39,010 --> 00:13:41,330 ISFM on your preferred podcast platform. 246 00:13:41,860 --> 00:13:43,360 Have a happy new year everyone.