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This is Grief and Pizza, a
podcast exploring the highs

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and lows at the intersection of
business and emotional well-being.

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This week we're talking to Johnny Miller,
creator of the Nervous System, Mastery

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Program, and The Curious Humans Podcast.

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Johnny, welcome to Grief and Pizza,
Johnny Miller from Nervous System Mastery

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Fame, and the Curious Humans Podcast.

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I guess at this point you're kind
of what I think of as the nervous

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system guy in the same way that
Marie is the, the Notion Gal.

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and I took the Nervous System Mastery
course in early 2023 and, I really enjoyed

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in the program how you had the people do
an explain like, I'm five, so whenever

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we would consume the material, we would
go to our group and then explain what we

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thought we understood to a five-year-old.

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And so I'd love to start off by you
just maybe doing an explain like I'm

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five on what the nervous system is and
why it's so important, in your work,

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in what I think of as like creating an
operating manual for your nervous system.

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Hmm.

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Beautiful.

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Thank you.

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Well, it, it's great to be here.

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Um, you've probably opened with
the toughest question of all,

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so, uh, thank you for that.

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yeah, the, the, the game is called
the Feynman Technique and it's, it's

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like a way of, attempting to explain
stuff without using long words.

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So I'll try and do that myself.

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so Nervous System Mastery is
learning how to be less reactive and.

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More alive in your life.

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And at the same time, listening to
your body and being in tune in the

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same way that you might have a, an
instrument or a guitar that goes

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out of tune every once in a while.

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You have to kind of tune yourself
up in order to, to play good music.

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And our bodies are like these instruments.

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So I consider nervous system mastery
as the, the practice, the skill of.

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Tuning up the instruments of our body.

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Yeah, I like that.

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That's pretty good.

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That's awesome.

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Yeah.

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I think actually one of the things
That struck me about the program almost

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immediately in the very first lesson, and
I, I went back and was watching it again

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today, was you start out, by introducing
this concept that you had been living

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your life sort of numb from the neck down.

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So without this somatic experience of
your body being totally disconnected

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and being up in your head all the time,
and When I was taking the course, it

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just resonated with me so strongly
where I was just like, oh my goodness.

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like we often end up so in our heads about
things and not really you know, letting it

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settle into the body and things like that.

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and that very first lesson
was this incredible TED

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talk that you gave at, Ubud.

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Ted X about, losing your ex-fiance
and your experience with grief.

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and I've always wondered was that kind
of like the impetus for this work where

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you started really diving deeply into
that body feel and exploring that grief?

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Or was there something prior to that?

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what set you on the journey to
developing this, this sort of

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guidebook for other practitioners?

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Oh, thank you for the beautiful question.

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Um, yeah, so I, I would say that I've
always been curious about the question

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of, of like how to live a good life.

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Like I, I studied philosophy at, at
university and I've always been interested

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in that, but I'd say up until, up until
that kind of journey through grief,

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it was a very intellectual pursuit
and I was kind of, you know, figuring

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out like what are the right principles
to live by and what are my values?

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And, you know, like reading
Plato and Aristotle and, and

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that, that type of stuff.

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Um.

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I would say I had like a, an initial
wake-up call of sorts when I left my

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first startup and I went through burnout
and that was, it was a very humbling

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experience and learning how to, not
learning how to, like more unlearning,

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detaching my identity from my work
and the, the startup that I was doing.

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And that was definitely a
kind of like one catalyst.

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But yeah, honestly, it was The journey
of, grief, which I, I'd never, you

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know, I'd managed to live twenty-seven
years without experiencing, I'd

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say any real emotional hardship.

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I mean, besides losing my grandma
when I was like 11, I, I'd never

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really been through anything like
emotionally tough or challenging before.

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And losing my, my former fiance
in such a unexpected and kind of

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sudden way was, it just kind of.

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Obliterated me in, in a
really kind of beautiful way.

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and, and, and, and I realized very early
on that, or at least I, I didn't realize,

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but I had the sense that, I'd seen adults
who had lost someone close to them,

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usually much older, and they, it seemed
like they hadn't really grieved the loss.

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And something about them
to me felt like they were.

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Almost like hollow kind
of husks of beings.

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There was this like lack of aliveness
or, like lethargy that really scared me.

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And, and I, I kind of saw myself, like
if I went down the trajectory that

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I was on, which was this, you know,
relatively, I wasn't totally emotionally

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disconnected, but I was pretty, I was not
at all in touch with my body or feelings.

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and so in some ways I kind of.

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I was like, okay, I'm gonna turn towards
this and I'm going to do my best to

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create the conditions to, to feel this,
this grief and this, this heartbreak that

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was, terrifying to, to feel like it, it,
it, it really, um, if I kind of think

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back to like the, the weeks afterwards,
I would say were just almost pure shock.

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Like, I wouldn't say denial, but it was
just too overwhelming to comprehend.

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What had happened fully, and I was kind
of in the, like going through the, I,

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I, I called it like death men, like
the logistics of like organizing the

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memorial and seeing people and consoling
the, the family and things like that.

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And it wasn't really until I had
spaciousness three or four months

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later that I really allowed myself
to like be hit by the tsunamis of,

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of grief and signed up for Vipassana,
which was at the time a terrifying.

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Um, proposition to kind of spend
10 days in total silence without

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anyone else and just, just sitting
with that and nothing else.

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Um, but yeah, it, it really was the
journey through grief that kind of

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opened up the, the Pandora's box,
so to speak, to, not only that, that

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experience, but many other things from.

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My life, which I hadn't given myself,
I didn't even know that I was holding.

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And, and I think the, it's
the phrase of like, numb from

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the neck down is interesting.

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'cause I only realize it now that I
have something to contrast it with.

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But if I'd heard that phrase in my early
twenties, I wouldn't have, it wouldn't

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have really made sense because I wouldn't
have had, had anything to compare it to.

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Mm.

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I'm like, oh no, I can feel my, look.

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I can pinch myself.

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I can feel that like I have a body.

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And so, um.

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Yeah, it's, it's something that only
I guess, makes sense in hindsight.

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I'm curious what some of the resources
you had at that time, 'cause I can

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imagine it would be really easy to kind
of go inward or, uh, maybe disconnect

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from people and, uh, it would be such
a sort of lonely, isolating experience.

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But how did you even get exposed to
the idea of doing a Vipassana or, you

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know, who, who were your support systems
during that time, or even your influences

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that were maybe opening your eyes to
a different way of approaching grief.

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Mm, beautiful.

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I, um, I was very fortunate that
I had, some really just beautiful

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close friends at the time that really
showed up for me in a beautiful way.

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I, I remember one guy, uh, his name's Stu.

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He took a two hour train down to
Brighton where I was living, and

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brought like a home-baked casserole,
gave it to me, gave me a hug, and had

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a cup of tea, and then went back home.

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And it was just like, like moments
like that where people just.

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It really showed up for me in such
a beautiful way that, um, I feel

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like was so essential, particularly
in the, the immediate aftermath.

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And one of the gifts of the grieving
process, I think, is that I felt so

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much closer to many of these people
during and after that process.

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Like it really did forge friendships
in a really beautiful way.

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and I'd say like, I'd been
interested in meditation.

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Before this.

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and I think I'd been kind of loosely
considering it, like vipassana it a

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year before, and so, and I might've
even, maybe I, I think I'd even signed

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up for it before this had happened.

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So it was more just the decision of
like, am I gonna go through with this now

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that the context seems very different.

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so I, I, I mean, I, I'd say the kind of.

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The curiosity that I had that was
mostly directed to the outer worlds,

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like travel startups, learning that
was starting to go inwards, I guess.

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So there was like an
initial curiosity there.

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but I didn't really have many
other resources just besides, you

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know, very caring, loving friends.

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Amazing.

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I I wanna ask too about the burnout.

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You mentioned even before this, so you
were in the startup world, and what were

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some of those initial signs of burnout?

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'cause I think a lot of folks maybe
don't even notice when they're in that.

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So if you were very in your head, how
did that start to show up for you that

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you were maybe beginning to notice that
there's something you're not listening to

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or that you were on the path to burnout?

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Yeah, so I'd say that my burnout
was, um, it means different

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things to different people.

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For me it was.

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Waking up in the morning with
a sense of like, not dread, but

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just like zero desire to continue
doing the work that I was doing.

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I remember reading, there was
a phrase by Annie Dillard.

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She says, how we spend our days is
in the end how we spend our lives.

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And that phrase at the time hit me like
a ton of bricks because I believed in

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the, the vision and the mission for
what we were doing with MapTier, but.

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I realized that on a daily basis I
was basically being like an email

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monkey and I just was not enjoying
the, the work itself that I was doing.

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I wasn't exercising my creativity.

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I didn't really see a path forward
that could bring that alive.

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And so, um, it was more of a
realization of like, I'm not coming

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alive in the work that I'm doing.

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And, uh, the kind of low-level
depression that kind of came with that.

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And, um.

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Just being like brutally honest with
myself of like where I was at and that

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this thing that I'd poured half a decade
into might not be the thing that I was

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meant to do for the rest of my life.

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I've had a lot of conversations recently
with founders who have left behind some

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sort of business and, I'm getting the
sense that there's actually, like the way

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that you describe somebody kind of walking
around as a husk, that I think that.

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These failed businesses often leave
behind this husk of an intention

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that people have for their lives,
and then that a lot of people aren't

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sufficiently actually grieving.

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The loss of a business because there's
like a death of an identity that gets,

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you know, people get very attached.

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And I think there's even like some
theories that our entrepreneurial,

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like Ideations are similar to a child
type Attachment and attachment theory.

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Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm.

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And that when we have that sense of
loss that like, it leaves us feeling

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completely Despondent and a little bit
flaily and we're not actually taking the

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time to, to actually grieve that process.

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So one of the things I did for.

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When we shut down our software as a
service was actually kind of like creating

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almost like a ceremonial like shut down
type thing where I planned a project to

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end it and write about it and kind of, you
know, so have some actual kind of grieving

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process for leaving behind these ideas.

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Um.

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did you ever have any sort of sense of
that, as you left that behind or you

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know, some un Unfelt emotions as, as
you were, you know, going through that

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process of, 'cause that sounded like
around the time that you were talking

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about feeling that numbness from the neck
down and, you know, what, what, what,

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what did you go through as a process of
that 10 years of oh, you know what I mean?

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The, yeah.

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The sense of loss there.

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I completely agree with you.

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And, and I think that.

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In my experience, the grief comes
from these identities or these

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parts of ourselves that, that die.

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And I remember at the time I had a
friend, his name's Tom Nixon, that

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actually encouraged me to create
a kind of ritual around it and a

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kind of like a ritual letting go.

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And, um, he works with founders to
kind of design ritual experiences,

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to kind to kind of like, whether it's
like beginnings or ends or, or closings

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and, I actually didn't do anything.

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I wish that I'd taken his advice, but
I did not have any kind of ritual.

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And, and I remember kind of this sense
of, it was almost like I'd like lost my

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life raft and I was just kind of adrift.

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And the life raft had been my identity
as a founder, which had given me,

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in my view, some like validation.

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It was like, oh, he's like
doing the startup thing.

219
00:11:51,908 --> 00:11:54,188
This, there was some kind
of social status there.

220
00:11:54,848 --> 00:11:58,600
And I remember without that, there was
this sense of like, like, like, who am I?

221
00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:01,150
Like, are my friends still
gonna want to hang out with me?

222
00:12:01,150 --> 00:12:02,860
Just, you know, stupid things like that.

223
00:12:02,860 --> 00:12:05,146
But they were very alive at the time.

224
00:12:05,419 --> 00:12:13,454
And I do think that e even in my case of
losing Sophie, my partner, the, the grief

225
00:12:13,454 --> 00:12:19,304
was connected to grieving both current and
future identities that I had for myself.

226
00:12:19,334 --> 00:12:19,904
So, mm-Hmm.

227
00:12:19,904 --> 00:12:21,164
The initial grief was.

228
00:12:21,554 --> 00:12:25,454
Was grieving, like not
having her there present.

229
00:12:25,454 --> 00:12:28,904
And then there was the grieving of
not being a husband and a father

230
00:12:28,904 --> 00:12:33,494
with her and, and grieving the kind
of future identity of the life that

231
00:12:33,494 --> 00:12:37,454
we'd projected out and planned for
the next, you know, five plus years.

232
00:12:37,659 --> 00:12:39,428
And, and also grieving.

233
00:12:39,428 --> 00:12:42,366
I remember there were like, I
went to different places that

234
00:12:42,366 --> 00:12:45,666
represented different parts of our
relationship and different parts of.

235
00:12:46,191 --> 00:12:46,881
My identity.

236
00:12:46,886 --> 00:12:51,951
And in each of those places it was almost
like there were like Horcruxes and I, I

237
00:12:51,951 --> 00:12:56,260
remember like going to a train station
that had been meaningful for us and just

238
00:12:56,260 --> 00:13:00,220
like breaking down and sobbing in the
middle of this like public train station.

239
00:13:00,250 --> 00:13:02,770
'cause I was hit with this memory.

240
00:13:03,132 --> 00:13:06,222
and, and so part of my journey
was deliberately going back to

241
00:13:06,222 --> 00:13:10,241
some of the places that were most
meaningful and creating mini rituals

242
00:13:10,241 --> 00:13:12,491
there to kind of surface those.

243
00:13:12,781 --> 00:13:16,201
Kind of pieces of grief that
had been, uh, left behind.

244
00:13:16,833 --> 00:13:17,193
Beautiful.

245
00:13:17,193 --> 00:13:17,493
That's really

246
00:13:17,493 --> 00:13:18,003
beautiful.

247
00:13:18,003 --> 00:13:20,073
That grief process, it's
not a one-time thing.

248
00:13:20,103 --> 00:13:20,343
Right?

249
00:13:20,343 --> 00:13:23,973
It's like the waves kind of keep
hitting you in different ways over time.

250
00:13:24,333 --> 00:13:28,263
How did this process of kind of
working through the grief end up

251
00:13:28,323 --> 00:13:32,168
informing this nervous system work
that you're doing today, like,

252
00:13:32,408 --> 00:13:34,058
you know, how did that happen?

253
00:13:34,263 --> 00:13:35,718
Um, how did it shape it?

254
00:13:35,723 --> 00:13:38,316
It feels like this grief had a
big influence on the work that

255
00:13:38,316 --> 00:13:39,486
you're doing today, obviously.

256
00:13:39,486 --> 00:13:42,606
So, you know, how did that get integrated?

257
00:13:43,056 --> 00:13:43,596
Hmm,

258
00:13:44,046 --> 00:13:44,316
hmm.

259
00:13:45,126 --> 00:13:47,316
I actually feel emotion, like
hearing, hearing that question.

260
00:13:47,466 --> 00:13:49,057
Um, yeah.

261
00:13:49,117 --> 00:13:52,387
It, I, I mean it informed
all of it in a way.

262
00:13:52,927 --> 00:13:57,937
Um, my, the, the kind of, the way
that, that the three or four years

263
00:13:57,937 --> 00:13:59,832
unfolded for me was initially.

264
00:14:00,567 --> 00:14:02,247
The Vipassana meditation retreat.

265
00:14:02,667 --> 00:14:06,306
And then I returned to Bali because
for me, that felt like a, a very,

266
00:14:06,306 --> 00:14:08,166
like nurturing and nourishing place.

267
00:14:08,251 --> 00:14:11,573
And when I was in Bali, I did
a freediving training with, uh,

268
00:14:11,783 --> 00:14:13,583
this, this, this great guy and he.

269
00:14:13,624 --> 00:14:17,704
Guided me through a, a breathwork journey,
which I hadn't come across before.

270
00:14:18,094 --> 00:14:21,004
And during that journey,
it was like 90 minutes.

271
00:14:21,113 --> 00:14:26,604
I had a just incredibly emotional,
powerful kind of release,

272
00:14:26,604 --> 00:14:28,644
just like streaming tears.

273
00:14:28,687 --> 00:14:32,664
And towards the end of it, I felt
this, like, this, like bliss and

274
00:14:32,664 --> 00:14:37,074
this level of joy that I hadn't, you
know, ever really experienced before.

275
00:14:37,074 --> 00:14:38,784
Certainly not in the context of grief.

276
00:14:39,264 --> 00:14:39,894
And so.

277
00:14:40,061 --> 00:14:42,401
After that I was like, like, holy crap.

278
00:14:42,431 --> 00:14:44,930
Like there's, there's something,
there's something here.

279
00:14:44,986 --> 00:14:45,286
Both.

280
00:14:45,286 --> 00:14:48,681
I want to do this more selfishly
because I feel like there's so much

281
00:14:48,686 --> 00:14:51,741
more for me to explore and feel,
but also this is really interesting.

282
00:14:52,161 --> 00:14:55,661
And so I ended up doing a bunch
of different breathwork trainings,

283
00:14:55,661 --> 00:14:58,001
as it turned out, holotropic
and, and some other ones.

284
00:14:58,039 --> 00:15:03,003
But I, I eventually met this guy Ed in
Bali, who, ran a nine-month training.

285
00:15:03,043 --> 00:15:04,813
Called facilitated breath repatterning.

286
00:15:04,989 --> 00:15:09,148
And it was really during those nine
months and learning about polyvagal

287
00:15:09,148 --> 00:15:12,418
theory, learning about the nervous
system, and, and not only learning

288
00:15:12,418 --> 00:15:16,629
it intellectually, but seeing how the
theory was then, um, coming to life

289
00:15:16,659 --> 00:15:20,208
in these breathwork journeys as I was
guiding myself and other people through

290
00:15:20,208 --> 00:15:22,886
it and just becoming fascinated by it.

291
00:15:22,916 --> 00:15:26,216
And, and, and then as the training
was coming towards an end.

292
00:15:26,951 --> 00:15:31,139
Realizing that the nervous system was
kind of the common thread between a lot

293
00:15:31,139 --> 00:15:33,905
of these things that I was interested
in and also a lot of the challenges

294
00:15:33,905 --> 00:15:37,268
that people were facing, in the nervous
system dysregulation, which is quite

295
00:15:37,268 --> 00:15:41,579
a broad term, but it's, it's basically
a, the underlying cause of things like

296
00:15:41,579 --> 00:15:47,504
anxiety, burnouts, reactive behavior,
certain health challenges, and so just

297
00:15:47,504 --> 00:15:50,027
becoming really fascinated by that and.

298
00:15:50,075 --> 00:15:51,665
learning reading books.

299
00:15:51,665 --> 00:15:54,905
There's books by, by Kathy Kane,
Nurturing Resilience was fantastic.

300
00:15:54,905 --> 00:15:58,445
Learning about the breath and how
the way that we breathe impacts

301
00:15:58,655 --> 00:16:00,695
the way that we feel and the
types of thoughts that we have.

302
00:16:01,055 --> 00:16:04,475
And so that was really like the rabbit
hole that I was just like, okay, I'm

303
00:16:04,475 --> 00:16:06,245
gonna, I'm gonna do a deep dive here.

304
00:16:06,515 --> 00:16:10,355
There's, there's something fascinating
here and I wanna learn it for myself,

305
00:16:10,411 --> 00:16:13,561
and maybe one day I'll, I'll share
it and teach it to other people.

306
00:16:14,329 --> 00:16:18,925
I was gonna ask was there a,  a moment
when you felt there's something here, I've

307
00:16:18,925 --> 00:16:22,645
got some traction in terms of like, maybe
I'll, maybe I'll teach this eventually.

308
00:16:23,065 --> 00:16:26,128
Or did you kind of always have an idea
that you've always been a teacher and

309
00:16:26,128 --> 00:16:27,658
that you were moving towards that?

310
00:16:27,658 --> 00:16:32,176
Or how did it turn from just a
exploration to, hey, this is something

311
00:16:32,176 --> 00:16:35,926
I could actually have a meaningful,
you know, business income around.

312
00:16:36,016 --> 00:16:38,419
When, when did that kind of
transition happened for you?

313
00:16:38,621 --> 00:16:40,661
Yeah, I, I can actually
pinpoint the exact moment.

314
00:16:41,031 --> 00:16:42,989
I was in Japan.

315
00:16:43,058 --> 00:16:47,622
I'd spontaneously gone to a, a retreat
run by this guy called Young Chip Chase

316
00:16:47,652 --> 00:16:51,685
and in Craig Mod and, I remember that
the day after the retreat, I stayed a day

317
00:16:51,685 --> 00:16:55,581
extra and I was rehearsing the TEDx talk
that you mentioned earlier about grief.

318
00:16:55,611 --> 00:16:55,821
Mm-Hmm.

319
00:16:55,911 --> 00:16:57,621
With, with one of the other participants.

320
00:16:57,621 --> 00:17:02,781
And Jan, who was organizing,
kind of overheard me practicing

321
00:17:02,786 --> 00:17:04,311
the, the speech basically.

322
00:17:04,701 --> 00:17:09,308
And this began a conversation
around burnout, around resilience.

323
00:17:09,338 --> 00:17:12,554
He works in kind of extreme
environments in the kind of

324
00:17:12,554 --> 00:17:14,444
like a research capacity and.

325
00:17:15,269 --> 00:17:18,119
Over the course of a few conversations,
he was like, do you want to

326
00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:22,093
co-host a, masterclass on emotional
resilience and maybe do some

327
00:17:22,098 --> 00:17:23,473
research to learn more about this?

328
00:17:23,473 --> 00:17:24,523
'cause this feels interesting.

329
00:17:24,883 --> 00:17:29,016
And so off the back of that, he,
he mentored me in, in a way, and I

330
00:17:29,016 --> 00:17:32,406
kind of learned a lot from him in
terms of building frameworks and

331
00:17:32,406 --> 00:17:36,982
being analytical and, and, um, having
a really kind of solid approach

332
00:17:36,982 --> 00:17:38,272
to researching this question.

333
00:17:38,602 --> 00:17:40,012
And then a series of.

334
00:17:40,062 --> 00:17:43,885
Emotional resilience masterclasses
came out of that, which I ran

335
00:17:43,933 --> 00:17:45,673
alongside him for a couple of years.

336
00:17:45,719 --> 00:17:49,649
And in those masterclasses, the key piece
that seemed to really resonate was the

337
00:17:49,649 --> 00:17:53,429
piece around the nervous system, around
energy management, around using the breath

338
00:17:53,429 --> 00:17:56,965
to up and down regulate conversations
around emotions interception.

339
00:17:57,175 --> 00:18:01,370
So I think this was at
some, it was during covid.

340
00:18:01,730 --> 00:18:02,180
Um.

341
00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:03,980
Mid-twenty-twenty.

342
00:18:04,250 --> 00:18:06,530
I was like, I feel like
there's like a body of work

343
00:18:06,530 --> 00:18:08,386
here that wants to be created.

344
00:18:08,656 --> 00:18:12,586
And so doing the, the classic creative
thing, I like posted a tweet being like,

345
00:18:12,586 --> 00:18:15,946
I'm thinking about doing this course
called Nervous System Mastery with

346
00:18:15,946 --> 00:18:19,426
anybody interest a screenshot of like
a super basic out-curriculum outline.

347
00:18:19,426 --> 00:18:21,316
Like, does anyone want to,
does anyone wanna join?

348
00:18:21,586 --> 00:18:24,887
And um, two people said
like, where can I sign up?

349
00:18:24,887 --> 00:18:26,207
Like, like, I'll pay right now.

350
00:18:26,447 --> 00:18:28,367
And so I, I made a
Stripe link on the side.

351
00:18:28,367 --> 00:18:29,027
I was like, here you go.

352
00:18:29,027 --> 00:18:29,837
Here's a payment link.

353
00:18:30,317 --> 00:18:32,807
And, with those two deposits,
I was like, right, okay.

354
00:18:32,807 --> 00:18:34,162
I guess, I guess this is happening.

355
00:18:34,282 --> 00:18:35,242
I guess this is happening.

356
00:18:36,152 --> 00:18:36,467
Yeah.

357
00:18:36,467 --> 00:18:39,041
And, and, and the, it was amazing.

358
00:18:39,317 --> 00:18:42,827
I entered this deep set of flow where
there was this sense of like, this

359
00:18:42,827 --> 00:18:46,745
thing kind of poured out of me, and
I really enjoyed the creative process

360
00:18:46,750 --> 00:18:50,861
of like crafting that curriculum
and structuring and sequencing the

361
00:18:50,866 --> 00:18:53,005
practices in a way that they could.

362
00:18:53,380 --> 00:18:57,130
Could make sense and also be
relatable to people that, you know,

363
00:18:57,130 --> 00:19:01,150
hadn't done breathwork trainings
and were kind of maybe coming in

364
00:19:01,150 --> 00:19:02,590
at multiple different entry points.

365
00:19:03,167 --> 00:19:06,866
One question I have for you is around
the positioning and framing of it.

366
00:19:06,871 --> 00:19:11,396
Obviously whatever you put forward on
Twitter attracted the right people, but

367
00:19:11,396 --> 00:19:13,526
I know some people are not necessarily.

368
00:19:13,856 --> 00:19:16,376
Maybe familiar with even the
concept of what does it mean

369
00:19:16,376 --> 00:19:17,696
to master your nervous system?

370
00:19:17,696 --> 00:19:21,896
So I'm curious if you had any
struggles there around how to frame

371
00:19:22,196 --> 00:19:23,996
the problem and how to talk about it.

372
00:19:24,474 --> 00:19:28,884
I mean, honestly I think that is like
the number one challenge that I face and

373
00:19:28,884 --> 00:19:32,304
I'm just constantly like, like you say,
using Twitter to just as like a, like

374
00:19:32,304 --> 00:19:36,231
a tuning fork and just saying things
that come to my mind and seeing what,

375
00:19:36,321 --> 00:19:40,521
what does resonate with other people and
maybe where's the push back and trying

376
00:19:40,521 --> 00:19:43,101
to find that way to articulate because.

377
00:19:43,210 --> 00:19:45,580
it's a very challenging thing to
communicate if it's something that

378
00:19:45,580 --> 00:19:46,930
people haven't experienced before.

379
00:19:47,263 --> 00:19:50,383
I liked the phrase like, there's
something about, I mean, you

380
00:19:50,383 --> 00:19:51,463
guys have notion mastery.

381
00:19:51,463 --> 00:19:55,353
There was something that was almost
like a, kind of like, it breaks

382
00:19:55,353 --> 00:19:59,103
your brain a little bit, combining
nervous system with mastery.

383
00:19:59,103 --> 00:20:01,893
Like there was something about
the framing that even if people

384
00:20:01,893 --> 00:20:03,213
had no idea what it meant.

385
00:20:03,588 --> 00:20:06,798
There's, there's like a curiosity
there that's like, wait, how

386
00:20:06,798 --> 00:20:08,418
do I master my nervous system?

387
00:20:08,418 --> 00:20:09,438
Like, it just happens.

388
00:20:09,438 --> 00:20:10,668
It's a kind of automatic thing.

389
00:20:10,668 --> 00:20:14,688
I didn't realize that there
was agency that I have here.

390
00:20:14,778 --> 00:20:18,925
And so I think that's part of what I, want
to convey is that there are these skills

391
00:20:18,925 --> 00:20:22,930
that we can build and these things that
we can learn to, to cultivate more agency

392
00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:25,075
over how our nervous system operates.

393
00:20:25,334 --> 00:20:27,164
and, and kind of borrowing from.

394
00:20:27,383 --> 00:20:30,743
Language from the tech world, you
know, like the, the operating manual

395
00:20:30,743 --> 00:20:31,913
for your nervous system, for example.

396
00:20:31,943 --> 00:20:36,233
Again, it's kind of combining
like, uh, this machine-like kind of

397
00:20:36,383 --> 00:20:41,243
techniques and protocols and bringing
in science to something that also

398
00:20:41,243 --> 00:20:42,983
works with feelings and emotions.

399
00:20:43,373 --> 00:20:47,465
Um, so I, I guess I've been
con constructing various

400
00:20:47,495 --> 00:20:49,650
like Trojan horses that.

401
00:20:50,120 --> 00:20:53,420
I feel like might have resonated
with my former self when I was

402
00:20:53,420 --> 00:20:54,980
working in the startup world.

403
00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:57,980
Um, yeah, to varying degrees of success.

404
00:20:57,980 --> 00:21:01,730
I, I would say like e even
people that I'm close with,

405
00:21:01,735 --> 00:21:03,240
like, like I mutual friend Khe.

406
00:21:03,770 --> 00:21:06,680
When we were at the mastermind
together, he, he was like, I

407
00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:07,820
don't really know what you do.

408
00:21:07,940 --> 00:21:08,960
Like, like what?

409
00:21:09,020 --> 00:21:09,470
What the hell?

410
00:21:09,620 --> 00:21:10,490
Like what the hell is this?

411
00:21:11,180 --> 00:21:14,090
It's like, you know, even people
that, you know, we have, we're close

412
00:21:14,090 --> 00:21:16,820
with and we have conversations with,
they don't sure necessarily get it.

413
00:21:16,825 --> 00:21:17,750
So it's um.

414
00:21:18,725 --> 00:21:19,205
It's for sure.

415
00:21:19,205 --> 00:21:20,735
Explain like, I'm a founder, right?

416
00:21:20,885 --> 00:21:23,400
Instead of explain like
I'm five, explain like I'm

417
00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:24,755
a founder even.

418
00:21:25,479 --> 00:21:26,169
That's awesome.

419
00:21:26,799 --> 00:21:27,039
Yeah.

420
00:21:27,293 --> 00:21:32,322
Um, maybe a bit of a segue, but You talk
a lot in your work about this concept of

421
00:21:32,532 --> 00:21:36,672
interoception and that was actually one
of the things that I had never heard of.

422
00:21:36,672 --> 00:21:39,402
And so like when I heard that
initially, I'm like, interoception,

423
00:21:39,402 --> 00:21:41,082
like, do you mean introspection?

424
00:21:41,087 --> 00:21:45,882
Like in a, that like, um, that difference
between introspection being kind of like

425
00:21:45,882 --> 00:21:52,032
the, noticing our thoughts maybe, and, and
I, I would maybe describe Interoception

426
00:21:52,032 --> 00:21:54,072
as noticing our feelings and our body.

427
00:21:54,252 --> 00:21:55,812
Is that, do you think that
that's like kind of an.

428
00:21:56,057 --> 00:21:58,937
An adequate comparison
for understanding that.

429
00:21:58,937 --> 00:22:02,207
And, um, like, you know, you
talk about the importance of

430
00:22:02,207 --> 00:22:04,457
cultivating interoception.

431
00:22:05,747 --> 00:22:06,797
Can you say more about that?

432
00:22:07,007 --> 00:22:07,307
Mm-Hmm.

433
00:22:07,757 --> 00:22:08,087
Yeah.

434
00:22:08,087 --> 00:22:12,910
I, um, I like when I came across
this word, it, it like, I.

435
00:22:13,310 --> 00:22:16,850
It connected so many dots for me
specifically around like being numb

436
00:22:16,850 --> 00:22:21,800
from the neck down and the, the analogy
that I like to use is, if you think

437
00:22:21,805 --> 00:22:25,790
of like the 15th century maps before
we kind of discovered where all the

438
00:22:25,790 --> 00:22:29,660
continents were, there were these
like big hereby dragons like splodgers

439
00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:32,345
on these uncharted territories and.

440
00:22:32,870 --> 00:22:38,240
For me, it felt like my body was this like
15th century map where I had like, maybe

441
00:22:38,450 --> 00:22:41,600
rough outlines of continents, but there
was no definition and there were these

442
00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:44,071
big, like blind spots of hear be dragons.

443
00:22:44,311 --> 00:22:49,214
And so I viewed it a lot of what I was
doing as like, I, I, I, I love, I love

444
00:22:49,219 --> 00:22:51,194
Zelda, I love like fantasy stories.

445
00:22:51,194 --> 00:22:52,489
So there was this kind of mm-hmm.

446
00:22:52,769 --> 00:22:55,679
Like, let's go on the inner
adventure and kind of fill out

447
00:22:55,679 --> 00:22:57,929
these blind spots of these maps.

448
00:22:57,929 --> 00:23:02,399
And there's also kind of a lot
more emerging literature as

449
00:23:02,404 --> 00:23:04,949
well, particularly over the last,
I'd say like five to 10 years.

450
00:23:04,949 --> 00:23:08,455
Interception is becoming more and more
of interest to the research community.

451
00:23:08,460 --> 00:23:09,805
And you know, findings.

452
00:23:09,835 --> 00:23:13,585
Like people that have ADHD for example,
tend to have low levels of interception.

453
00:23:13,945 --> 00:23:14,515
How.

454
00:23:14,860 --> 00:23:18,640
Uh, low levels of interception
correlated with PTSD, with,

455
00:23:18,670 --> 00:23:20,380
um, various challenges in life.

456
00:23:20,380 --> 00:23:24,190
So there's an increasing interest
and like body of literature to

457
00:23:24,190 --> 00:23:26,080
kind of back this up as well.

458
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:26,890
Mm-Hmm.

459
00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:30,040
And it's something that can be
cultivated, you know, pretty easily

460
00:23:30,045 --> 00:23:33,460
through things like the APE practice
that I share in the training or

461
00:23:33,460 --> 00:23:37,930
through yoga nidra, NSDR, or just even
just like being curious, honestly.

462
00:23:37,930 --> 00:23:40,685
Just like, like it's,
it's like a, a skill.

463
00:23:40,805 --> 00:23:43,595
And, and, and I remember for
myself it was actually during the.

464
00:23:43,711 --> 00:23:47,972
Vipassana training, the meditation
retreat that I did a while back where

465
00:23:48,068 --> 00:23:52,328
for 10 days you're basically doing a
body scan over and over and over again.

466
00:23:52,688 --> 00:23:56,888
And I remember on like days eight,
nine, and 10, I was like, whoa.

467
00:23:56,888 --> 00:24:01,690
I'm like experiencing sensations
in parts of my body that I'd like,

468
00:24:01,870 --> 00:24:03,370
I had no idea was even possible.

469
00:24:03,370 --> 00:24:04,480
It felt like a superpower.

470
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:08,200
It was like I have this like magical
ability to bring my attention to

471
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:09,995
different parts of my body and uh.

472
00:24:10,150 --> 00:24:14,560
Yeah, I just, I was like, this is so
cool and I feel like it's important.

473
00:24:14,730 --> 00:24:17,940
I'm curious if interoception can
be measured, like you mentioned

474
00:24:17,940 --> 00:24:22,920
around, uh, folks with ADHD having
low interoception or low levels.

475
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:24,420
You know, it's sort of
how do you measure that?

476
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:28,500
My introduction to Interoception
probably came from TikTok and seeing

477
00:24:28,500 --> 00:24:32,880
people who have ADHD talk about
interoception and I started to think

478
00:24:32,885 --> 00:24:38,190
about the ways that, um, for example,
I think hunger cues are not always, uh,

479
00:24:38,190 --> 00:24:41,970
I'm not maybe always tuned into those,
so sometimes I will accidentally eat.

480
00:24:42,705 --> 00:24:46,395
Two lunches or two dinners because
I actually don't, maybe I don't

481
00:24:46,395 --> 00:24:48,555
feel that like satiation, right.

482
00:24:48,555 --> 00:24:49,515
And I sort of forget.

483
00:24:49,815 --> 00:24:52,125
Um, so there's things like that
where I have to set up reminders

484
00:24:52,130 --> 00:24:54,135
for myself to do those check-ins.

485
00:24:54,135 --> 00:24:56,985
And, um, so I'm just
curious, can it be measured?

486
00:24:56,985 --> 00:24:58,725
And of course it's
something we can cultivate.

487
00:24:58,725 --> 00:25:02,565
So like what are some ways that we
can, um, notice where we're at with

488
00:25:02,570 --> 00:25:04,485
our awareness of our interoception?

489
00:25:04,575 --> 00:25:05,175
I love that.

490
00:25:05,175 --> 00:25:07,095
I love, it's just the thought
of you eating two lunches.

491
00:25:07,095 --> 00:25:09,255
Like I, I sometimes
eat two lunches myself.

492
00:25:09,255 --> 00:25:09,585
I'm like,

493
00:25:10,730 --> 00:25:11,985
okay, so I'm not doing it wrong.

494
00:25:13,995 --> 00:25:15,285
Yeah, it's, it's a great question.

495
00:25:15,315 --> 00:25:20,746
Um, there is a, I'd say that the,
the best assessment out there is

496
00:25:20,751 --> 00:25:23,236
something called the MAIA M-A-I-A.

497
00:25:23,566 --> 00:25:27,709
There's actually, if like MAIA
version two is a, um, I think

498
00:25:27,709 --> 00:25:31,729
there's thirty-seven questions,
which you can kind of rank yourself.

499
00:25:31,904 --> 00:25:34,154
On those different areas, and
at the end you get a score.

500
00:25:34,481 --> 00:25:39,971
the way that it's measured typically in,
in clinical trials and studies is using

501
00:25:40,063 --> 00:25:44,673
how well is someone able to accurately
assess the speed of their own heartbeat,

502
00:25:44,948 --> 00:25:52,113
which is, um, it's, it's a, it's like a
vector of interoception, but to my mind,

503
00:25:52,113 --> 00:25:56,103
it actually doesn't capture so much more
of the subtlety and nuance that is there.

504
00:25:56,108 --> 00:25:56,298
Mm-Hmm.

505
00:25:56,448 --> 00:26:00,367
Like I know people that can kind of sense
their, their heartbeat, but they have

506
00:26:00,367 --> 00:26:02,467
low interceptive capacity in other areas.

507
00:26:02,767 --> 00:26:06,132
So the, the MAIA is
probably the best out there.

508
00:26:06,132 --> 00:26:10,146
It's, it's unfortunately not a
very, um, it's like a kind of crusty

509
00:26:10,146 --> 00:26:13,866
PDF that's not very well designed,
but I, I mean, I'm thinking about

510
00:26:13,866 --> 00:26:16,446
redesigning it and just, you know,
making that more accessible to people.

511
00:26:16,536 --> 00:26:16,626
Mm-Hmm.

512
00:26:16,866 --> 00:26:17,166
Yeah.

513
00:26:17,166 --> 00:26:22,326
Um, but those are the, those that,
that's the main way that it's done at

514
00:26:22,326 --> 00:26:23,826
the moment, and I would like to see.

515
00:26:24,321 --> 00:26:28,041
You know, innovations in the way
that it is measured more accurately.

516
00:26:28,381 --> 00:26:28,981
Interesting.

517
00:26:29,215 --> 00:26:32,185
I'm curious if you're, if you're
open to chatting about it, um.

518
00:26:32,310 --> 00:26:35,520
You do an amazing job of sharing
some of your own personal

519
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:40,230
experiments in your quarterly
reports or quarterly reviews, right?

520
00:26:40,230 --> 00:26:42,540
You've, you've shared those with your
inner community and you say, here

521
00:26:42,540 --> 00:26:44,370
are the things I'm asking myself.

522
00:26:44,370 --> 00:26:47,610
Here's the experiments that I'm
running, and you've mentioned, uh,

523
00:26:47,610 --> 00:26:51,180
psychedelic work, ayahuasca, things
like that as something that you're

524
00:26:51,180 --> 00:26:52,560
interested in experimenting with.

525
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:57,450
I'm kind of curious how you see
potentially psychedelics being a tool for.

526
00:26:57,795 --> 00:27:00,015
Improving our own relationship
with our nervous system.

527
00:27:00,015 --> 00:27:01,845
Is that, are those two things related?

528
00:27:01,845 --> 00:27:05,505
Are you seeing, you know, more
conversations in the space about that?

529
00:27:05,505 --> 00:27:08,355
I'm curious about your, your
thoughts around that and your

530
00:27:08,355 --> 00:27:10,035
relationship with psychedelics.

531
00:27:10,362 --> 00:27:14,022
Well, I, I can start by sharing
my own kind of experience and

532
00:27:14,022 --> 00:27:15,612
story with, with psychedelics.

533
00:27:15,925 --> 00:27:20,065
so I, I was invited to sit in an,
an ayahuasca ceremony, um, a few

534
00:27:20,065 --> 00:27:23,896
months after the, after losing
Sophie, so kind of fairly early

535
00:27:23,896 --> 00:27:25,676
on in my grieving journey and.

536
00:27:25,909 --> 00:27:27,679
It was, it was three nights.

537
00:27:27,769 --> 00:27:34,432
And I, I would say that that experience,
um, it like shattered my existing

538
00:27:34,572 --> 00:27:41,442
rational materialist world view in a
way that, I don't know if it would've,

539
00:27:41,652 --> 00:27:45,162
I, I dunno how else that would've
happened if it not without the aid of,

540
00:27:45,162 --> 00:27:47,202
of psychedelics, um, at that point.

541
00:27:47,202 --> 00:27:48,372
And it really just kind of.

542
00:27:48,686 --> 00:27:54,009
Um, opened me up to, to being a student
again and, and, and being a beginner and

543
00:27:54,009 --> 00:27:57,339
realising that actually, like, I don't
have a lot of this stuff figured out.

544
00:27:57,492 --> 00:28:01,822
And so I, I think what psychedelics,
um, and, and when I say psychedelics,

545
00:28:01,822 --> 00:28:07,042
I'm referring to LSD, high dose
psilocybin, um, ayahuasca as well.

546
00:28:07,402 --> 00:28:14,392
Um, they reliably produce a very
altered state of consciousness, which,

547
00:28:14,504 --> 00:28:18,877
even if there's no kind of tangible
benefits on the other side, there

548
00:28:18,877 --> 00:28:23,137
will almost certainly be a sense
of like, huh, like there is so much

549
00:28:23,137 --> 00:28:27,301
about my own way of being in the
world that I, that I don't understand.

550
00:28:27,811 --> 00:28:31,157
Um, and so for me it really
ignited this curiosity of like,

551
00:28:31,162 --> 00:28:33,977
can I access these states through
meditation or through breath work?

552
00:28:34,177 --> 00:28:37,177
and what are the connections,
um, in terms of how it overlaps

553
00:28:37,177 --> 00:28:38,227
with the nervous system?

554
00:28:38,407 --> 00:28:39,937
I'll use MDMA as an example.

555
00:28:39,967 --> 00:28:42,877
'cause it, which is an empathogen,
which isn't strictly a psychedelic,

556
00:28:43,207 --> 00:28:48,341
but, I recently interviewed Marcella,
who was the lead psychotherapist on

557
00:28:48,341 --> 00:28:50,381
the MDMA MAPS trials here in Boulder.

558
00:28:50,921 --> 00:28:55,331
And, um, they had a, I think it
was a seventy-something, maybe

559
00:28:55,331 --> 00:29:00,741
seventy-two percent reduction
in, in untreatable depression and

560
00:29:00,741 --> 00:29:02,851
PTSD symptoms in their trials and.

561
00:29:03,212 --> 00:29:09,146
Basically the, the way that I understand
how they work is MDMA combined with an

562
00:29:09,146 --> 00:29:12,446
appropriate setting, setting and, you
know, a trained psychotherapist who's

563
00:29:12,446 --> 00:29:15,236
there to create safety and hold space.

564
00:29:15,656 --> 00:29:20,896
It is effective at surfacing the
incomplete reflexes or the unfelt

565
00:29:20,896 --> 00:29:25,006
emotions, to use the phrase from
earlier, from earlier in life and giving.

566
00:29:25,381 --> 00:29:29,851
Them a space to be felt and, and
for those mobilization reflexes

567
00:29:29,851 --> 00:29:31,381
essentially to be completed.

568
00:29:31,891 --> 00:29:36,444
And that completion process is
something that I refer to as like

569
00:29:36,444 --> 00:29:37,794
paying off our emotional debt.

570
00:29:38,064 --> 00:29:42,441
and so I think that absolutely
is a role for psychedelics in.

571
00:29:42,521 --> 00:29:45,191
A context of a very well-held set.

572
00:29:45,251 --> 00:29:48,641
Set and setting set meaning mindset,
kind of like in a mindset setting,

573
00:29:48,641 --> 00:29:52,597
meaning like a safe environment, with
someone who is trained to hold space

574
00:29:52,597 --> 00:29:54,277
for people through big experiences.

575
00:29:54,637 --> 00:29:56,954
I think there is
absolutely a role for that.

576
00:29:57,074 --> 00:30:00,437
I do believe that this can be done
effectively without psychedelics.

577
00:30:00,564 --> 00:30:05,064
and for many people it is
some, something of a, um.

578
00:30:05,302 --> 00:30:09,922
I, I guess like a fast track in, in,
in some ways, um, in, in terms of

579
00:30:10,312 --> 00:30:15,166
psilocybin and, and ayahuasca, I think,
it's a bigger conversation than, uh,

580
00:30:15,196 --> 00:30:17,476
just nervous system healing as well.

581
00:30:17,626 --> 00:30:17,716
Mm-Hmm.

582
00:30:17,716 --> 00:30:21,499
I, I, I think that the, the thing that
I would like to say is that there's also

583
00:30:21,499 --> 00:30:26,045
a pitfall and a danger of people going
to something like an ayahuasca ceremony,

584
00:30:26,045 --> 00:30:31,451
having this enormous kind of Blast-off
experience completely disassociating

585
00:30:31,451 --> 00:30:35,622
from their body and then coming back down
with like, nothing actually changing, but

586
00:30:35,622 --> 00:30:39,282
maybe just their ego is being reinforced
by having this like big experience

587
00:30:39,282 --> 00:30:43,392
that they then, you know, tell everyone
about which, and dunno how to integrate.

588
00:30:43,392 --> 00:30:43,393
Yeah.

589
00:30:43,398 --> 00:30:44,562
And don't and exactly.

590
00:30:44,622 --> 00:30:45,492
And dunno how to integrate.

591
00:30:45,552 --> 00:30:45,762
Yeah.

592
00:30:45,767 --> 00:30:48,012
Integration is a huge challenge
for a lot of people as well.

593
00:30:48,433 --> 00:30:48,583
yeah.

594
00:30:48,583 --> 00:30:49,423
Great reflection on that.

595
00:30:49,423 --> 00:30:50,353
I really appreciate it.

596
00:30:50,556 --> 00:30:53,946
one of the things that's making me
curious about is with, with your work,

597
00:30:54,076 --> 00:30:57,430
you're dealing with nervous system,
you're dealing with a lot of anxiety

598
00:30:57,460 --> 00:31:01,626
held emotions with your students,
and I'm curious if it ever feels like

599
00:31:01,626 --> 00:31:04,013
there's that danger of people maybe.

600
00:31:04,221 --> 00:31:07,401
Treating you like their therapist
or trauma dumping or things

601
00:31:07,401 --> 00:31:08,451
that are coming up for people.

602
00:31:08,451 --> 00:31:12,651
Like, do you ever have to deal with that
as a, as a teacher in a space that is

603
00:31:12,651 --> 00:31:17,961
kind of asking people to maybe confront
their emotions in a difficult way?

604
00:31:18,111 --> 00:31:20,271
Is that something that even comes up?

605
00:31:21,261 --> 00:31:24,441
It's, it's for sure
something that I am aware of.

606
00:31:24,831 --> 00:31:28,341
I would say it, it, it previously
used to come up more in a one-on-one

607
00:31:28,341 --> 00:31:30,801
context when I was guiding people
through breathwork journeys.

608
00:31:31,311 --> 00:31:35,548
In the context of the, of the Nervous
System Mastery course, I created it in

609
00:31:35,548 --> 00:31:41,858
a way where I, from the very beginning,
I kind of want to empower people to

610
00:31:41,863 --> 00:31:47,051
experiment for themselves and not project
any kind of, or authority or even like

611
00:31:47,056 --> 00:31:51,158
the idea of me being an expert, because
that is then disempowering them from

612
00:31:51,218 --> 00:31:53,288
running these experiments for themselves.

613
00:31:53,648 --> 00:31:54,338
And so, if.

614
00:31:54,686 --> 00:31:57,686
You know, if large emotions come up
in the live sessions, which sometimes

615
00:31:57,686 --> 00:32:01,826
they do, then of course like I'll kind
of hold space and guide people through

616
00:32:01,826 --> 00:32:05,876
to a place of like feeling accepting
those, and that's, that's beautiful.

617
00:32:05,876 --> 00:32:07,196
I think that's, that's part of it.

618
00:32:07,540 --> 00:32:11,493
but if, if some, if, if you know,
someone messages me, privately and

619
00:32:11,633 --> 00:32:16,343
share something, I, I will generally
try and connect them with an in-person,

620
00:32:16,343 --> 00:32:20,153
somatic therapist if I can, because
that, that in my perspective is.

621
00:32:20,256 --> 00:32:24,756
The most, the, the fast track
to healing, whatever's going on.

622
00:32:24,756 --> 00:32:29,540
And if they can't find someone in person,
then some people do somatic experiencing

623
00:32:29,620 --> 00:32:30,910
through Zoom and things like that.

624
00:32:30,915 --> 00:32:32,560
And that's kind of the, the backup option.

625
00:32:33,100 --> 00:32:33,340
Yeah.

626
00:32:33,340 --> 00:32:37,045
And there's something about your program,
you have this, One of the most beautiful

627
00:32:37,045 --> 00:32:41,925
things that was really, freeing for me was
you talk about the gap in between stimulus

628
00:32:41,925 --> 00:32:43,995
and response and freedom being in there.

629
00:32:44,091 --> 00:32:47,631
and you also, you reference this
quote a lot from Leonard, Cohen

630
00:32:47,691 --> 00:32:50,421
that something along the lines of
that there's a crack in everything

631
00:32:50,421 --> 00:32:51,651
and that's how the light gets in.

632
00:32:52,311 --> 00:32:54,261
And this idea of, um, I know.

633
00:32:54,446 --> 00:32:57,806
Barrett, our last, one of our last
episode, guests was talking about

634
00:32:57,806 --> 00:33:00,536
how the, the cost of joy is grief.

635
00:33:00,536 --> 00:33:03,656
and I found that through like the
somatic experience, doing that work,

636
00:33:03,866 --> 00:33:07,796
yes the psychedelics can have that
impact of widening that gap really well.

637
00:33:07,796 --> 00:33:11,096
But it kind of like, after the, the
sessions, it can kind of snap back.

638
00:33:11,096 --> 00:33:14,576
But it's like now that gap is kind of
there and so now you can go into the

639
00:33:14,576 --> 00:33:16,606
somatic work and really look at that gap.

640
00:33:16,606 --> 00:33:18,106
So to me it's almost like.

641
00:33:18,311 --> 00:33:22,905
It provides an initial awareness of those
cracks where maybe you thought everything

642
00:33:22,905 --> 00:33:24,705
was solid and nothing is allowed in.

643
00:33:25,095 --> 00:33:25,185
Mm-Hmm.

644
00:33:25,185 --> 00:33:28,035
Now you're aware of the cracks
after experiencing that.

645
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:32,235
And I think like maybe for some people,
like it's really difficult to get them

646
00:33:32,235 --> 00:33:35,655
to notice those cracks without some kind
of Getting them up to the starting line.

647
00:33:35,655 --> 00:33:38,808
And then once they're there, they can
take a step back from, the assisted

648
00:33:38,808 --> 00:33:41,118
stuff and start going internal as well.

649
00:33:41,418 --> 00:33:41,508
Mm-Hmm.

650
00:33:41,748 --> 00:33:44,838
Um, so now I, I, I think of
everything now 'cause I, I've

651
00:33:44,838 --> 00:33:46,368
always said I used to take, um.

652
00:33:46,458 --> 00:33:50,688
Like effects are and all this different
stuff for managing my anxiety and what

653
00:33:50,688 --> 00:33:54,108
I felt like those, those Pharmaceuticals
gave me was like a little bit of a

654
00:33:54,108 --> 00:33:59,208
pause from when that thought becomes a
feeling and then kind of settles into

655
00:33:59,213 --> 00:34:01,323
your body so you're able to like, I.

656
00:34:01,323 --> 00:34:04,618
Make some moves or think about
how is this gonna land in my body?

657
00:34:04,718 --> 00:34:09,080
and I've felt now, you know, my awareness
has expanded from the neck down, that I

658
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:13,670
have much more control over noticing those
gaps and widening those gaps over time.

659
00:34:13,675 --> 00:34:16,910
And it's just like the more that
you notice those gaps, the more

660
00:34:16,910 --> 00:34:19,730
wide they become and it just,
it's very freeing in that feeling.

661
00:34:19,860 --> 00:34:20,490
no question.

662
00:34:20,490 --> 00:34:21,810
I guess I'm just wondering if.

663
00:34:22,250 --> 00:34:22,490
Like

664
00:34:23,585 --> 00:34:24,565
how that resonates for you.

665
00:34:24,705 --> 00:34:30,004
I'm like, can I hire you to, to, to
help me talk about nervous system?

666
00:34:30,085 --> 00:34:34,580
I, I mean I, um, I think I shared the,
the Leonard Cohen quote about there

667
00:34:34,580 --> 00:34:36,980
was a crack a crack and everything
that, that's how the light gets in.

668
00:34:37,250 --> 00:34:40,430
That was, that was kind of the most, um.

669
00:34:40,768 --> 00:34:45,161
The biggest epiphany for me during the
grief journey in that I remember when I

670
00:34:45,161 --> 00:34:50,251
was, I was by her memorial bench and just
kind of tears streaming down my face.

671
00:34:50,611 --> 00:34:54,451
But the feeling like when I
kind of let go of the story of

672
00:34:54,451 --> 00:34:56,071
like, oh, I've lost my fiance.

673
00:34:56,431 --> 00:35:00,121
The feeling was just like, it was
like joy and connection and like

674
00:35:00,121 --> 00:35:04,631
rawness and aliveness, and there was
so much beauty there, and I was like.

675
00:35:04,778 --> 00:35:06,398
Like it almost didn't make sense.

676
00:35:06,398 --> 00:35:11,228
I was like, but wait, grief is meant to be
bad and hard and sucks, which it can be.

677
00:35:11,498 --> 00:35:16,588
But when I, when there wasn't any
resistance in my system to, to that kind

678
00:35:16,588 --> 00:35:21,988
of like tsunami of, of feeling and energy
moving through, it was so beautiful and,

679
00:35:21,993 --> 00:35:23,968
and I think that's part of what I've.

680
00:35:24,388 --> 00:35:29,308
Um, and that, that in itself was
such a reframe because since then

681
00:35:29,338 --> 00:35:34,301
it, you know, it took me a while,
but like now my, my kind of story of

682
00:35:34,306 --> 00:35:36,491
these challenging emotions is, huh?

683
00:35:36,521 --> 00:35:40,481
Like, there's something here for me
to feel into and I'll feel so much.

684
00:35:40,584 --> 00:35:43,554
Expansion and joy and connection
on the other side of this.

685
00:35:43,554 --> 00:35:47,214
So, so I'm gonna actually like, go
into this and get curious about this.

686
00:35:47,389 --> 00:35:47,809
Mm-Hmm.

687
00:35:47,814 --> 00:35:50,484
And, you know, Joe Hudson's work
has been fantastic for that as well.

688
00:35:50,484 --> 00:35:54,301
I know he's been on the podcast too,
but it really was that reframe of like,

689
00:35:54,541 --> 00:35:57,268
like, wow, like grief can be beautiful.

690
00:35:57,358 --> 00:36:00,208
And like, and, and it's funny,
there was a, there was a period of

691
00:36:00,208 --> 00:36:05,728
time where I was, I was grieving
not being in the depths of grief.

692
00:36:06,238 --> 00:36:10,378
For a while because there was such a
sense of like connection and rawness

693
00:36:10,378 --> 00:36:15,688
and aliveness that I felt, which when
I kind of went back to like mundane

694
00:36:15,718 --> 00:36:21,238
Johnny existence, I it like, it, it's
like I lost, I lost both ends of the

695
00:36:21,238 --> 00:36:24,778
spectrum and I, and I was like, ha,
like I, I miss that in a weird way.

696
00:36:24,833 --> 00:36:27,323
And then that brought up confusion
of like, wait, that's weird.

697
00:36:27,323 --> 00:36:27,623
Like,

698
00:36:28,223 --> 00:36:29,393
I'm supposed to feel like

699
00:36:29,393 --> 00:36:31,403
this, I'm supposed Yeah, exactly.

700
00:36:31,493 --> 00:36:34,793
It was like questioning all the stories
of like how you're supposed to feel

701
00:36:34,793 --> 00:36:36,353
in different, in different contexts.

702
00:36:36,749 --> 00:36:38,159
There's always a real tension there.

703
00:36:38,164 --> 00:36:40,139
I, I love one of my favorite memes.

704
00:36:40,144 --> 00:36:42,929
I don't, I don't remember his
last name, but Visa on Twitter.

705
00:36:43,499 --> 00:36:44,324
I'm sure you're aware of him.

706
00:36:44,399 --> 00:36:48,876
And he has the a laugh my Ass off meme
where he's got, you know, the ship sailing

707
00:36:48,876 --> 00:36:51,246
between, um, it's like from the Odyssey.

708
00:36:51,856 --> 00:36:57,501
Cherubdis and Scylla, and on one side
is says, life is incredibly meaningless.

709
00:36:57,501 --> 00:37:00,231
And on the other side is life
is incredibly meaningful.

710
00:37:00,711 --> 00:37:04,361
And like the ship is just sailing
through those two dangers and just being

711
00:37:04,361 --> 00:37:06,041
like, hey, like, you know, whatever.

712
00:37:06,041 --> 00:37:07,181
Like we're figure this out.

713
00:37:07,241 --> 00:37:11,711
And you know, that tension in, in
wanting to feel I should be feeling

714
00:37:11,716 --> 00:37:13,241
grief, I should be feeling joy.

715
00:37:13,241 --> 00:37:15,821
But being in between that
tension and just kind of.

716
00:37:16,071 --> 00:37:20,084
Soldiering on is, is such a, uh,
you know, I think for me it's become

717
00:37:20,084 --> 00:37:23,628
a really meaningful, meaningful
meme almost that I try to live by.

718
00:37:24,138 --> 00:37:28,248
It's funny you mentioned the meaning
piece in that kind of questioning, like

719
00:37:28,248 --> 00:37:32,208
what is the meaning of life was like
one of the things I was wrestling with

720
00:37:32,208 --> 00:37:36,974
before this and something about, both the
plant medicine experiences and grief, I.

721
00:37:37,264 --> 00:37:40,504
There was a sense of like, oh,
like that's a stupid question.

722
00:37:40,714 --> 00:37:43,804
Like there is a certain state
of being where to even ask

723
00:37:43,804 --> 00:37:45,394
that question feels ridiculous.

724
00:37:45,399 --> 00:37:50,284
It's like the meaning is inherent in
certain states of being, and sometimes

725
00:37:50,284 --> 00:37:53,794
you forget that, and then it's like,
okay, how do I find my way back into that?

726
00:37:53,914 --> 00:37:58,294
That state where everything feels like
inherently like drenched in meaning.

727
00:37:59,144 --> 00:37:59,594
Yeah.

728
00:37:59,954 --> 00:38:04,344
Uh, I had another thing written from one
of your, your statements where you were

729
00:38:04,344 --> 00:38:08,554
talking about clean emotional expression
and that clarity lies on the other side

730
00:38:08,554 --> 00:38:12,334
of feeling, and that's, that's a sense of
having that clean emotional expression.

731
00:38:12,364 --> 00:38:16,898
And so like that, it sounds like for
you at least, that grief became that

732
00:38:16,898 --> 00:38:20,858
thing that you, on the other side
of the grief, became this beautiful,

733
00:38:20,918 --> 00:38:23,648
expressive joy that you know has.

734
00:38:24,113 --> 00:38:27,323
Seems to have led to this amazing
course and community and all

735
00:38:27,323 --> 00:38:28,253
this work that you've done.

736
00:38:28,253 --> 00:38:32,813
So having that clarity on that grief is,
and you know, I like, like Barrett said,

737
00:38:32,813 --> 00:38:34,913
the cost of the cost of joy is grief.

738
00:38:34,918 --> 00:38:35,393
So, mm-hmm.

739
00:38:35,479 --> 00:38:37,339
Getting to that point is really beautiful.

740
00:38:37,339 --> 00:38:38,239
I'm really happy for you.

741
00:38:38,329 --> 00:38:42,589
It's like such a, I like, I just see
the work that you're doing and, and

742
00:38:42,589 --> 00:38:46,153
it makes me, makes me super happy
to see somebody that seems to just

743
00:38:46,153 --> 00:38:51,193
be Really at the edge of comfort and
creating something really meaningful.

744
00:38:51,309 --> 00:38:52,599
it's always really inspiring.

745
00:38:52,599 --> 00:38:54,999
So I, I definitely appreciate
the work you're doing.

746
00:38:55,539 --> 00:38:55,749
Mm, yeah.

747
00:38:56,319 --> 00:38:56,949
Thank you so much.

748
00:38:56,949 --> 00:38:57,159
Yeah.

749
00:38:57,159 --> 00:39:02,039
It, it always, it's so beautiful hearing
other people's reflections of their

750
00:39:02,044 --> 00:39:05,069
experience as well and just how, um.

751
00:39:05,148 --> 00:39:08,883
I, I mean, I, I, I, I shared this with
Joe the other day of like, I feel like

752
00:39:09,063 --> 00:39:13,593
teaching this course is almost a forcing
function for me to be a perpetual student

753
00:39:13,598 --> 00:39:15,153
in a way of like, oh yeah, mm-hmm.

754
00:39:15,303 --> 00:39:18,723
Learning about how other people
view this, and then seeing how

755
00:39:18,723 --> 00:39:20,313
that reflects in my own experience.

756
00:39:20,313 --> 00:39:21,439
And yeah, I mean.

757
00:39:21,486 --> 00:39:23,946
Fingers crossed it continues that way.

758
00:39:23,946 --> 00:39:27,486
Like if, if either of you kind of
see me preaching myself as like an

759
00:39:27,486 --> 00:39:31,176
expert on Twitter, feel free to just
like, like call me out and like,

760
00:39:31,956 --> 00:39:33,576
like funny, like, what are you doing?

761
00:39:33,581 --> 00:39:33,906
Like,

762
00:39:35,646 --> 00:39:39,906
um, no, I feel like curiosity is in
your, your DNA, the way you show up on

763
00:39:39,906 --> 00:39:41,466
Twitter, the way you're asking questions.

764
00:39:41,466 --> 00:39:44,046
Like, I really do feel like that's
a part of how you show up in

765
00:39:44,051 --> 00:39:45,876
the world and it's really, uh.

766
00:39:46,371 --> 00:39:49,371
Oh, it's cool to see because your
curious nature, I think, will spark

767
00:39:49,371 --> 00:39:53,631
other people to be a little more curious
and to ask more and better questions.

768
00:39:54,831 --> 00:39:55,191
Thank you.

769
00:39:55,191 --> 00:39:56,301
I, I certainly hope so.

770
00:39:56,841 --> 00:39:57,921
That'd be fun if that's the case.

771
00:39:58,521 --> 00:39:58,941
Yeah.

772
00:39:59,211 --> 00:39:59,451
Awesome.

773
00:39:59,481 --> 00:39:59,871
Yeah.

774
00:40:00,261 --> 00:40:03,741
I'm curious to learn a little bit
more about even what your work

775
00:40:03,741 --> 00:40:05,121
looks like behind the scenes.

776
00:40:05,361 --> 00:40:08,451
I know that your work kind of
started to take more shape during

777
00:40:08,451 --> 00:40:11,331
Covid, and I think I kind of went
through the same thing where suddenly

778
00:40:11,331 --> 00:40:13,551
there was this weird gap in time.

779
00:40:14,241 --> 00:40:17,691
Travel is closed, suddenly we have a
lot more time on our hands and things

780
00:40:17,691 --> 00:40:21,291
kind of shifted and I, I felt like that
was a time for me to go really, really

781
00:40:21,291 --> 00:40:22,881
deep and get into that creative flow.

782
00:40:22,881 --> 00:40:24,861
It sounds like you kind
of did the same thing too.

783
00:40:25,221 --> 00:40:29,811
Um, so did, do you think like, in a
weird way, COVID was this bubble that

784
00:40:30,141 --> 00:40:33,688
was kind of a forcing function that
enabled this work to maybe, get out

785
00:40:33,688 --> 00:40:35,818
sooner than it would've otherwise or.

786
00:40:36,328 --> 00:40:38,968
Yeah, I, I'm kind of curious your
relationship with that weird bubble

787
00:40:38,968 --> 00:40:42,868
in time that, you know, for me was,
was kind of like a big catalyst.

788
00:40:44,218 --> 00:40:45,808
Yeah, it, it definitely was.

789
00:40:45,808 --> 00:40:48,891
I mean, it took my, my wife
and I to Bali for Covid.

790
00:40:48,978 --> 00:40:53,101
and even, you know, there being in a,
in a different time zone and just kind

791
00:40:53,101 --> 00:40:58,921
of somewhat disconnected from everything
else, um, I don't think that I would've.

792
00:40:59,266 --> 00:41:02,356
You know, gone online first for
the course because originally the

793
00:41:02,356 --> 00:41:05,086
workshops were in person, they were
meant to continue being in person.

794
00:41:05,186 --> 00:41:07,736
and I had my doubts about like, you
know, how much could actually be

795
00:41:07,736 --> 00:41:09,426
taught in a virtual environment.

796
00:41:09,489 --> 00:41:12,969
Um, I still don't do things like,
like I don't do breath work online.

797
00:41:13,444 --> 00:41:16,444
there's certain kind of practices
which I think are only suited

798
00:41:16,444 --> 00:41:18,261
for an in-person kind of setting.

799
00:41:18,304 --> 00:41:21,244
Um, so the, what that was
kind of a challenge for me of

800
00:41:21,244 --> 00:41:22,894
like, like, I wonder, like.

801
00:41:23,068 --> 00:41:28,321
To what degree can true transformation be
possible through an online only setting?

802
00:41:28,381 --> 00:41:28,561
Mm-Hmm.

803
00:41:28,621 --> 00:41:31,771
And I think where I've settled is
that the, the course as it's, as it

804
00:41:31,771 --> 00:41:37,151
stands, feels like a, a powerful OnRamp
to, really like sparking people's

805
00:41:37,151 --> 00:41:40,751
curiosity about like, you know,
maybe I am gonna look for a somatic

806
00:41:40,751 --> 00:41:42,101
practitioner on the other side of this.

807
00:41:42,101 --> 00:41:43,871
Or, and giving people enough.

808
00:41:43,951 --> 00:41:47,421
Tools that will, you know, hopefully
serve them no matter what path they go

809
00:41:47,421 --> 00:41:51,931
down from cultivating interception to
breathing practices, to self-regulate,

810
00:41:51,931 --> 00:41:55,521
and then even just learning the theory
and having like a couple of guided

811
00:41:55,526 --> 00:41:58,551
recordings of like, okay, I'm feeling
a challenging emotion right now.

812
00:41:58,581 --> 00:42:02,751
Here's how I can, if I choose to
kind of lean into it and, and see

813
00:42:02,751 --> 00:42:03,741
what might be on the other side.

814
00:42:04,091 --> 00:42:04,601
Amazing.

815
00:42:04,601 --> 00:42:08,561
So the in-person stuff is, uh,
it's still very alive for you.

816
00:42:08,771 --> 00:42:12,371
I know you mentioned, um, I think you
posted on Twitter about potentially

817
00:42:12,371 --> 00:42:14,981
looking to do a men's retreat, right.

818
00:42:14,981 --> 00:42:17,321
So that's, you know, sounds like
something you're, you're looking to

819
00:42:17,321 --> 00:42:20,501
pursue more and hopefully Ben will
get to attend one of these in the

820
00:42:20,506 --> 00:42:21,971
future when the timing definitely

821
00:42:22,181 --> 00:42:22,811
aligns.

822
00:42:22,811 --> 00:42:23,261
Yeah.

823
00:42:24,041 --> 00:42:24,341
Yeah.

824
00:42:24,341 --> 00:42:26,981
I, I mean, I'm hoping to do a
men's retreat in six weeks time.

825
00:42:27,068 --> 00:42:28,748
Um, it'll be the, the
second one that I've done.

826
00:42:28,748 --> 00:42:32,228
And for me that's more, there's a
certain nourishment that comes from like.

827
00:42:32,474 --> 00:42:34,804
doing these things in
person that is, is hard.

828
00:42:34,834 --> 00:42:36,574
It's, it's rewarding in a different way.

829
00:42:36,574 --> 00:42:37,834
Doing it online, I think.

830
00:42:38,314 --> 00:42:41,261
Um, and yeah, I, I want to,
particularly now it feels like the

831
00:42:41,261 --> 00:42:42,581
foundations are kind of in place.

832
00:42:42,586 --> 00:42:46,871
I want to think about how to
create probably small, intimate

833
00:42:46,871 --> 00:42:49,721
in-person experiences for those
who want to, to go deeper.

834
00:42:50,703 --> 00:42:54,183
What are some of the things you're
still wrestling with, if anything?

835
00:42:54,183 --> 00:42:56,883
In terms of the online
version of the course?

836
00:42:57,243 --> 00:43:00,513
Uh, I know you mentioned the positioning
of it, finding the right language

837
00:43:00,513 --> 00:43:01,983
to communicate the value of it.

838
00:43:02,163 --> 00:43:04,533
What are some of the things, the
challenges maybe, that you're

839
00:43:04,533 --> 00:43:07,173
encountering in running an online course?

840
00:43:07,178 --> 00:43:10,203
Whether it's the launching piece,
whether it's updating the content

841
00:43:10,203 --> 00:43:14,403
over time, or, or collecting feedback
or, you know, filling the seats.

842
00:43:14,403 --> 00:43:17,343
What are some of the challenges that
you're, you're currently facing?

843
00:43:18,006 --> 00:43:18,306
Yeah,

844
00:43:18,306 --> 00:43:19,116
great question.

845
00:43:19,206 --> 00:43:23,840
So I think one thing that I,
I've been aware of recently,

846
00:43:23,870 --> 00:43:25,490
well, two, two main things.

847
00:43:25,490 --> 00:43:27,020
One is that I have.

848
00:43:27,545 --> 00:43:30,695
You know, 15 kind of different
projects that I'd love to try.

849
00:43:30,695 --> 00:43:33,035
And right now it's just me
and our community manager.

850
00:43:33,035 --> 00:43:36,575
So I'm like really trying to
like ruthlessly prioritise.

851
00:43:36,575 --> 00:43:36,815
Okay.

852
00:43:36,815 --> 00:43:42,095
Like I have like, you know, two big punts
that I can make and, and I have to, I have

853
00:43:42,100 --> 00:43:46,865
to just choose those two and not try and
over commit and do everything at once.

854
00:43:46,949 --> 00:43:49,019
Um, I guess that's a problem
for, for everyone really.

855
00:43:49,077 --> 00:43:53,567
I think another piece
is, yeah, investing in.

856
00:43:53,876 --> 00:43:56,546
Assets that appreciate over time, so.

857
00:43:56,818 --> 00:43:59,968
Currently a lot of people hear about
the course through Twitter, through

858
00:43:59,968 --> 00:44:03,988
sponsoring newsletters, through,
um, my podcast and referrals.

859
00:44:04,111 --> 00:44:06,896
And I'm realizing that it means
that there has to be kind of a,

860
00:44:07,081 --> 00:44:10,291
a large amount of energy output
in the run-up to each cohort.

861
00:44:10,442 --> 00:44:12,030
And what I'd love to do, I.

862
00:44:12,260 --> 00:44:15,800
You know, learning from, from you guys
is like, like start a YouTube channel

863
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:19,070
and, and, and write more long, long
form blog posts and things, which will

864
00:44:19,070 --> 00:44:23,360
hopefully appreciate in terms of the
number of people that find out about

865
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:28,490
them over time and kind of building,
building a more sustainable way of

866
00:44:28,700 --> 00:44:32,210
promoting the course, um, is certainly
something that's, that's alive.

867
00:44:32,553 --> 00:44:38,157
and yeah, and, and I think also wanting
to do this and continue to grow.

868
00:44:38,475 --> 00:44:42,315
also hoping to kind of continue
growing this course in a way that

869
00:44:42,855 --> 00:44:46,935
I still get to ha like experience
joy and the fun of doing it.

870
00:44:47,175 --> 00:44:51,345
'cause I, I know that if I was to treat
it purely as, you know, a business,

871
00:44:51,765 --> 00:44:56,385
there are certain things which I could
do to, you know, optimize conversions

872
00:44:56,385 --> 00:45:00,135
and sales funnels and things, which
I come from a marketing background,

873
00:45:00,135 --> 00:45:04,125
so I have that capacity, but it's
not my, it's not my zone of joy.

874
00:45:04,425 --> 00:45:05,925
So I'm like.

875
00:45:06,392 --> 00:45:10,382
focusing my time on the things which both
I think will be impactful, but also feel

876
00:45:10,382 --> 00:45:14,882
fun like, like sharing memes on Twitter
is a great example of like, it kind of

877
00:45:14,882 --> 00:45:18,182
bridges both like least applications.

878
00:45:18,187 --> 00:45:18,722
I have fun.

879
00:45:18,932 --> 00:45:20,672
It's like, yeah, win-win.

880
00:45:21,071 --> 00:45:21,836
Do you have thoughts around.

881
00:45:22,736 --> 00:45:25,526
How small or big your team will grow?

882
00:45:25,556 --> 00:45:28,766
Like how, how do you feel, like you
said it's you and a community manager,

883
00:45:29,096 --> 00:45:32,966
do you have any plans to hire more team
members or even working with your partner?

884
00:45:32,966 --> 00:45:35,156
Is that something that
you're considering doing?

885
00:45:35,546 --> 00:45:36,506
What might that look like for

886
00:45:36,506 --> 00:45:36,746
you?

887
00:45:36,806 --> 00:45:39,416
Yeah, I'm interested in, I think, like

888
00:45:40,744 --> 00:45:44,254
aligned projects with
freelancers or contractors.

889
00:45:44,284 --> 00:45:48,514
So I'm, I'm quite resistant to
bringing on full-time employees.

890
00:45:48,707 --> 00:45:52,367
Although that would certainly be the
most effective way to, I think, scale.

891
00:45:52,430 --> 00:45:57,882
I think I'm still wanting to kind of run
these experiments basically and work with

892
00:45:58,212 --> 00:46:01,362
super smart people on specific projects.

893
00:46:01,902 --> 00:46:04,692
Um, at least for now, like
that, that might change.

894
00:46:04,697 --> 00:46:08,099
And you know, maybe there's a part
of me that's resisting, uh, you know,

895
00:46:08,099 --> 00:46:09,929
being a leader of a team in this way.

896
00:46:10,219 --> 00:46:10,789
but.

897
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:12,570
For me at least, it's a
whole different skill set.

898
00:46:13,110 --> 00:46:13,410
Yeah.

899
00:46:13,585 --> 00:46:18,390
I, I feel like I, I, I keep, there's more
kind of capacity for me to change my mind,

900
00:46:18,390 --> 00:46:20,490
to move fast, to just to try new things.

901
00:46:20,490 --> 00:46:20,550
Yeah.

902
00:46:20,809 --> 00:46:24,932
so whilst I could grow in one
direction with a team, I don't

903
00:46:24,932 --> 00:46:27,272
feel, and I also don't feel like
it would be ready for that as well.

904
00:46:27,272 --> 00:46:30,122
I think it would be premature to
hire a bunch of people and scale.

905
00:46:30,242 --> 00:46:30,572
Mm-Hmm.

906
00:46:31,173 --> 00:46:34,173
Well, we're excited to see where
you take the course and however

907
00:46:34,178 --> 00:46:35,523
we can support you, we just

908
00:46:35,603 --> 00:46:36,953
adore you, and adore your work.

909
00:46:36,953 --> 00:46:40,073
So however we can support, please
don't ever hesitate to ask.

910
00:46:40,613 --> 00:46:40,883
Oh,

911
00:46:40,883 --> 00:46:41,633
that's really kind.

912
00:46:41,633 --> 00:46:44,183
And I'm excited we get to spend more
time in person this year as well.

913
00:46:44,903 --> 00:46:45,623
Absolutely.

914
00:46:46,283 --> 00:46:46,583
Yeah.

915
00:46:46,733 --> 00:46:50,573
And honestly, I mean, I don't know if
even the name Nervous System Mastery

916
00:46:50,573 --> 00:46:53,693
would've come into my consciousness had
I not been aware of you guys as well.

917
00:46:54,473 --> 00:46:54,893
No way.

918
00:46:54,893 --> 00:46:56,498
It was probably, that's
pretty cool of like.

919
00:46:56,978 --> 00:46:58,838
Shameless stealing from on my, oh

920
00:46:59,798 --> 00:46:59,948
hey.

921
00:46:59,948 --> 00:47:03,008
And honestly, I think I probably
stole it from a con convert.

922
00:47:03,038 --> 00:47:04,958
Mastering ConvertKit
or ConvertKit Mastery.

923
00:47:04,958 --> 00:47:05,978
So beautiful.

924
00:47:06,008 --> 00:47:08,228
It's all, it's all out
there to be remixed.

925
00:47:08,228 --> 00:47:08,588
Right?

926
00:47:09,098 --> 00:47:09,188
I

927
00:47:09,188 --> 00:47:09,338
was

928
00:47:09,343 --> 00:47:10,778
like, I really like what
these guys are doing.

929
00:47:10,778 --> 00:47:15,038
Like I wonder if Place notion
with nervous system and uh, it

930
00:47:15,038 --> 00:47:16,383
seems it works to be working.

931
00:47:16,493 --> 00:47:16,783
Yeah.

932
00:47:16,973 --> 00:47:17,463
Awesome.

933
00:47:18,133 --> 00:47:18,623
Amazing.

934
00:47:18,733 --> 00:47:19,023
Yeah.

935
00:47:19,127 --> 00:47:19,457
Cool.

936
00:47:19,697 --> 00:47:19,907
Yeah.

937
00:47:19,907 --> 00:47:20,207
Love it.

938
00:47:20,207 --> 00:47:23,177
John, where's the best place
for, for people to find you?

939
00:47:23,182 --> 00:47:25,277
We know about your, you
know, curious Humans podcast.

940
00:47:25,277 --> 00:47:26,477
We'll include the link below.

941
00:47:26,873 --> 00:47:28,523
Um, N Mastery.

942
00:47:28,913 --> 00:47:30,563
N System Mastery, and

943
00:47:30,613 --> 00:47:33,803
Nsmastery.com is the
site and nervous system.

944
00:47:33,803 --> 00:47:34,493
Must be course.

945
00:47:34,633 --> 00:47:39,522
And, um, yeah, the applications are open
right now for the spring cohort and yeah.

946
00:47:39,522 --> 00:47:42,358
And then, and then Twitter, if anyone
listening is on Twitter, I love

947
00:47:42,358 --> 00:47:43,858
spending time there and having Yeah.

948
00:47:43,858 --> 00:47:44,698
Conversations there.

949
00:47:44,820 --> 00:47:48,330
and also it's, there's some, there's
a podcast episode with Joe Hudson and

950
00:47:48,570 --> 00:47:52,200
other, I, I think for people that might,
you know, be curious about like, digging

951
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:55,020
deeper into some of these topics,
there's some more kind of specific

952
00:47:55,020 --> 00:47:58,620
conversations on The Curious Humans
Podcast that go into psychedelics,

953
00:47:58,620 --> 00:48:00,750
go into breathwork, things like that.

954
00:48:00,750 --> 00:48:03,965
So that would be a, a, a good
kind of jumping off point for

955
00:48:03,965 --> 00:48:05,100
people that want to learn more.

956
00:48:05,403 --> 00:48:06,123
Amazing.

957
00:48:06,617 --> 00:48:09,107
Thank you so much for your,
your generosity and just

958
00:48:09,107 --> 00:48:10,097
being with us here today.

959
00:48:10,097 --> 00:48:10,937
It's always awesome.