What happens when leaders make decisions further and further away from the work itself?
In a world of AI, automated dashboards, and remote work, it’s easy to manage representations of work instead of understanding what’s actually happening for the people who do it.
Yet, when leaders rely on data rather than facts, they often end up solving the wrong problems, even with the best intentions.
In this episode of Chain of Learning, I'm joined by Nigel Thurlow, consultant, systems thinker, and Toyota's first-ever Chief of Agile, to explore how better decisions come from understanding how the system actually operates. And that understanding is built by engaging with the people doing the work.
When you stay connected, you don't just get better information. You see how work actually flows, where problems emerge, and what's getting in the way. You build trust, surface issues earlier, and make it easier for people to think and solve problems together.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
- Why there's a critical difference between delegation and empowerment — and why one leaves people unable to act
- How to distinguish between data and facts, and why going to see conditions firsthand changes the decisions you make
- What "going to gemba" looks like in a digital or remote environment when there's no factory floor to walk
- Why making work visible creates the conditions for people to surface problems, before they compound
- Why AI amplifies what's already there — and why fixing the underlying system comes first
ABOUT MY GUEST: Nigel Thurlow is CEO of The Flow Consortium and the creator of Scrum the Toyota Way. He spent over 20 years at Toyota, including serving as the first Chief of Agile at Toyota Connected. He is co-author of The Flow System and The Flow System Playbook, and his work focuses on improving decision-making in complex environments.
IMPORTANT LINKS:
TIMESTAMPS FOR THIS EPISODE:
03:19 Effects of being detached from the work when working remotely
04:17 Difference between delegation and empowerment when assigning work to others
05:35 Fear of those who are delegated to of failing or making the wrong decision
07:15 What it means to empower someone and transfer the ownership of that decision to someone else
09:21 How to go to gemba and go where the work is done
10:07 The benefits of "presenteeism" and being present where the work is performed
11:46 Benefits of collaborating in person vs. a digital environment to make better decision
13:02 Nigel’s experience in working in a frozen food manufacturer and going out to the line to understand the pain workers experienced
15:42 Why you need to understand how work gets done to improve throughput and quality of work
16:39 Benefits of hiring an external or internal consultant to understand the problems that need solving
19:31 The effects of companies investing in tools and AI and realizing it doesn’t help with problem solving
21:30 How to avoid the leadership decision problem and get all the facts to avoid consequences
24:39 Technique known as “sense making” to understand the temperament and behaviors in the environment to reveal dark constraints
26:09 The difference between US and Toyota’s corporate culture in incentivizing leaders to be part of a system
29:10 How to help workers make changes that need to be made visible to senior leaders
35:04 Enabling others to communicate with leaders to improve decision making
37:14 Why badly designed systems and not the workforce are the cause of problems
38:25 Why you can’t implement AI with a broken system
40:31 The possible future of AI and how it can affect our decision making
43:37 Importance of embracing the human connection to better communicate and make better decisions
47:24 Reflect on where your decisions may be happening too far from the work
What is Chain of Learning: Leadership Strategies for Transforming Culture, Developing People, and Getting Results?
Chain of Learning® is the leadership podcast for leaders and change practitioners who believe that people, not tools, are the foundation of lasting results.
If you're working to transform your organization's culture, develop leaders at every level, and build teams that are capable, confident, and empowered to solve problems and innovate, this podcast is for you.
Hosted by Katie Anderson, award-winning author of "Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn" and globally recognized expert in people-centered leadership, Chain of Learning explores how leaders break free from the Doer Trap™, where they do more and their people develop less, and build a vibrant culture where impact is exponential.
Each biweekly episode offers practical insights, reflective questions, and real-world examples to help you:
- Develop leaders at scale, not just one at a time
- Build high-performing cultures of continuous learning, grounded in psychological safety, trust, and empowerment, that thrive and grow
- Lead culture transformation and change leadership with intention
- Strengthen coaching culture, problem-solving, and leadership development across your organization
- Move from managers who focus on outcomes to leaders who develop people, improve performance, and get results
Grounded in human-centered leadership and adult learning practices, and informed by principles of the Toyota Way, Lean thinking, and operational excellence, Chain of Learning features conversations with influential thinkers and leaders shaping the future of leadership at scale and organizational learning. Past guests include Carol Dweck, Michael Bungay Stanier, Rich Sheridan, Barry O'Reilly, Steve Spear, Jim Womack, Gene Kim, and Larry Culp.
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