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Jonathan speaks with Stephen Lease and Ben Abell, who have known each other since high school. The conversation opens around partnerships. Both goodr and Unconquered were founded by co-founders and they talk about strategies to keep the relationships strong, how to work through hardship and the importance of complementary skill sets.
As the conversation progresses, a big theme emerges for this episode, centered around culture. They talked about creating a strong company culture, hiring and keeping employees engaged. As an organization, goodr does not use email and prefers to use Slack to keep communication open. "It’s about transparency. It hinges around stopping 1/1 conversations that don’t need to happen," said Lease.
Conquer the Noise is a podcast dedicated to telling stories of outstanding ideas and people who have found their way amongst the chatter.
Series: Cultivating Purpose & Passion in Business
In an environment of cultural change and demanding consumer expectations, engage with fellow marketing leaders and hear how they navigate brand relevance, impact and authenticity. In this series, we will explore how to create a greater impact on your business and community by cultivating purpose and passion into actionable items. During this session we’ll discuss ways brands and businesses can better connect with the environment and their community. Learn from 1% leaders on how they bring values in sustainability through all aspects of their brand and business.
Unconquered presents this series in partnership with 1% For The Planet's Be 1% Better Campaign. Unconquered is an independent creative agency challenging brand perspective through redefined content. We founded the agency to create work with a sense of purpose beyond itself, using commerce to change the world. We believe the unconquered spirit is at the heart of every great brand.
Credits:
Thank you to all of our guests, without you this wouldn't exist.
Art - Mike McNeive, Partner @ Drexler https://drxlr.com/
Audio - Harry Glaser
Speaker 1: Conquer the noise is a podcast produced by Unconquered, an independent agency. This podcast is dedicated to telling stories of outstanding ideas and people who have found their way amongst the chatter. Well, Ben, Steven, thank you so much for joining us. I really appreciate you making the time. I know you guys are quite busy with all the success you've had in the last few years, so welcome.
Speaker 2: Thanks for having us. It was wonderful.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Thanks for having us shopping.
Speaker 1: [00:00:30] Yeah. So, um, you guys are, are partners. How long have you guys been, uh, known each other? How did this whole, uh, endeavor start
Speaker 2: Been? You wanna take it? Go ahead.
Speaker 3: Uh, I'll take the first part and then I'll let you, uh, I'll let you do the, the history. Oh, gooder. Um, yeah, I mean, Steven and I have known each other since high school. Um, so I don't remember which year of high school it was, but you know, kind of back in day, we both grew up, um, in our Nevada, Colorado, um, and just, [00:01:00] you know, manage to kind of stay connected and stay friends that entire time through, you know, post high school college, and then whatever kind of crazy adventure on there. I mean, Steven moved to LA 2007. ABC, is that right? Yeah. 2007, 2008. Um, and I made the porn decision of going to law school about that same time. Um, but you know, kept the contact and, um, um, you know, throughout that time, just kind of randomly started running together. Uh, well, not together, but running at the same time, uh, getting a distance running [00:01:30] and yeah, just kept, you know, had conversations about that. Went to random races together, uh, would travel and that kinda situation. So always, always kind of had conversations around, uh, running and our running adventures. But, uh, yeah, I know see who you wanna talk about kind of the, the, the, how that led to good. Yeah. And
Speaker 2: May been glossed over just like a thousand, just hooligan adventures in high school, high school and college, and you know, around the world, uh, uh, which is right. Cuz we only keep it classy. And then yeah, from a good standpoint, it was weird how we both [00:02:00] gotten running. I got in a little earlier than Ben, but both kind of fell in love with it. And in 2014 we were training apart, but separate to run the grand traverse, which is, uh, Cresta Butte to Aspen, it's like 40 miles ish. And, uh, that was 2014. And in there ran a lot, talked a lot about running when we we'd see each other, you know, handful times a year. And uh, you know, I think they, and brought up, he was like, you know, I think we should start like a company that revolved around running and like fun and fashion because [00:02:30] we just didn't feel like anything like that existed out there.
Speaker 2: And so mm-hmm, talked about, it talked about it. I had started several companies and in 2015, uh, I became obsessed with cheap sunglasses, uh, because was just disen just, didn't like spending a lot of money on eyewear. And I knew a little bit about the industry cause I worked, um, in some sports companies and uh, called Ben. I was like, we should do a, a, we should do running sunglasses. And we got together and wrote [00:03:00] up and wrote a plan for, and we were off and running and, and that's the, like the super short version of it, but it was really, it really came from this idea that we ran because we thought it was fun and nothing out there was speaking to us. And so we wanted to do something that spoke to a, a, um, fun and, and now we have gooder
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm so I think like it's interesting. So I have a co-founder as well. So I have a business partner. Um, we were friends before, not quite, quite as [00:03:30] far back as, as you two. Um, but people ask me who are thinking about bringing in a partner and an investor, you know, advice. And my, my advice for people is always like tread, tread, tread soft, or tread lightly do your due diligence, do your due and make sure that you're compatible and you communicate well. Cuz one, I think like partnerships can be really difficult, um, to, to manage. And I've seen people lose friendships. I've seen businesses dissolve because they couldn't come to terms or, or agree on things. Um, you guys [00:04:00] obviously have a good chemistry and something something's working, you know, what do you credit to, um, to, to having a successful partnership over at good or
Speaker 2: I'll go first and yeah, I think it's so I, I believe, uh, you know, everybody always and goods and overnight success and it is except for it's the six company that've either started or been a part of starting and have yet to like sell a company. So five black marks on the record, but [00:04:30] I believe a partner's a really, really good thing because you play off each other, it kind of forces you not to get complacent. Mm-hmm I think one of the biggest things when you're starting anything is just perfection and your lag time mm-hmm . And so it's when you have somebody else relying on you, that's a, that's a huge benefit mm-hmm uh, compatibility is really important. Ben and I looked out, we were friends for a long time and I mean, we didn't, other than like working at my dad's golf course together, we didn't, we didn't work together in a professional setting. Right. Uh, [00:05:00] and so that was definitely something that was new. And I think that
Speaker 2: We're very fortunate in complimentary skill sets. Also we have really, really deep roots and friendship that, um, that we have to build on. And, uh, from the beginning I've always been a really big communication person of like, mm-hmm, just talking, talking things through and you know, it hasn't been perfect by any means, but, um, yeah, I, I think, uh, so to answer your question, why do [00:05:30] I think it is deep roots and understanding? So we've had that, um, a really high importance placed on communication at gooder from Ben and I to everyone mm-hmm and then I don't know, success covers up all sins
Speaker 3: yeah. I mean, I would absolutely double down on the, uh, the communication portion of that. It's something that certainly I've, uh, I was never good at to begin with, but, you know, know, uh, with Steven's patients I've gotten a little bit better at I'm [00:06:00] I'm, I'm a, I'm a four instead of a two now, um, on my communication, uh, and my communication skills. So that's, that's good, but I mean, it's absolutely essential. I think that's, that's, I mean, obviously any relationship, whether it's, you know, a business partnership or, you know, a marriage or whatever it might be, if you're not communicating effectively, it's, you know, chances are, it's not gonna succeed. Um, and I also think that, you know, we, we, I mean, we were 32 33 when we kind of started this thing off. Um, and so had, you know, a plenty of life experiences and kind of matured a bit.
Speaker 3: [00:06:30] Um, I would bet a lot of money that if we had started this thing, when we were 22, uh, it would've blown up a lot quicker out sooner wouldn't have gone as far. Um, because you know, you just, it you're just not as mature. At least we weren't, um, you know, I I'm, I'm flabbergasted and blown away by all the really successful entrepreneurs who are, you know, 20 or 21 who managed to navigate their ways through the kind of emotional mind fields of starting a company it's, it's insanely impressive. I could never have done it. So, you know, being a little bit older, more matures, [00:07:00] you know, it it's just something I needed and had to, had to get to. Um, and then, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll pump, uh, I'll pump some legal tires here a little bit, just so I can justify the student loans I have, but, um, there's a bit of like good fences make good neighbors situation too.
Speaker 3: Like, you know, we had, we had all our legal docs lined up from the get go. Um, and so we knew exactly how much everyone owned of what. And so there was never any of those little squabbles that could have led to bigger problems, just kind of just, you just knew how it was gonna go. Um, and [00:07:30] that was before there was any money. I mean, you know, its, you know, we're it, so it really helped, it was, it was negative money was, it was negative money for quite some time. Um, yeah. So yeah, I, I, but yeah, I think communication has to be number one on that list.
Speaker 1: Yeah. We did a similar thing where the first things that we put in place were actually legal documents to really define, um, I think set the foundation really for the business and, and make sure everything's clear cut. And we know, um, like you said, who owns what and where the [00:08:00] lines are drawn and that this is E 50 50 partnership and, um, it can get dicey if you wait too long to, to do that stuff. Um, I think naturally for us, our, our skill sets, um, they compliment each other and that he's a lot better at certain things than I'm not frankly. And, and vice versa. Do you find that be the case for the two of you, you know, then you have a background on law, so do you tend to lead more of the sort of operations and, and Steven re uh, communications and marketing? Or how does that split fall?
Speaker 3: Yeah, [00:08:30] yeah, for sure. I mean a hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. I mean like early on, especially, um, you know, it was just the two of us. I mean, having Steven's kind of, you know, brand focus was, I mean, it was it's stuff that like was always so squishy and amorphous for me as a lawyer. Mm-hmm like, I never quite, I never, I never understood marketing and especially working in a law firm, uh, law firms don't do marketing, um, or if they do what they do it extraordinarily poorly mm-hmm , um, at least the ones that I've, I've been in contact with, um, compared to, you know, like the, [00:09:00] the, the kind of more global brands around the world. So like having him be able to do that was great. And then, you know, like just my lane was one that, you know, Steven, you know, had no interest in doing as well. I, I don't think Steve, you can correct me if I'm wrong. If there's like a, no a secret, a secret lawyer, deep inside you,
Speaker 2: But no, but, but also in, in things, uh, you know, leaked out in smaller ways, like we, I hate reading long documents, it's just something I'm not good at, not a fan of it. And that translates to long [00:09:30] emails too. And so before we had a real team, Ben and I CC on like every single email and Ben would do this thing that I've noticed, or he would like slack me. It was like, Hey, uh, uh, if you, do you see the email from Soandso, here's the deal where it was very much, he knew I wasn't going to like get bogged down and it would like read it and cliff notes it for me. And like, you know, there's a lot of really small things like that, that hard to quantify. And, and you put a count on that [00:10:00] showed up and you just, you recognize, uh, you recognize those things in each other. Like, and, and, and if you're really good and successful, I think you just become good at noticing those things and helping each other out mm-hmm
Speaker 1: , you know, you bring up email and I think that's leads me into section. I wanted to explore today with you guys is you really seem to establish a strong company culture. Um, and one of those is how you communicate with each other and your team. Um, and I read someone that you don't use email it's slack only. And I think that's amazing [00:10:30] for us. I mean, I, we are constantly trying to figure out the best way to communicate and, and make sure where everyone's getting details that they need and trying to consolidate. But email has still been such a huge part of our communication. How have you guys done that transition to, to slack strictly?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, from the beginning, it, it, it came up. I don't remember. We, we started using slack, I mean really early, but so no internal emails allowed, obviously if you're communicating with external people, but a lot [00:11:00] of our staff, that's not, that's not really a thing that they do. Mm-hmm , uh, and so for us, I think both Ben and I hated inbox purgatory, right? Just every day, you're spending hours on email and so started using slack. And then I'm a big weirdly like systems and process guy. Like I get really excited about things like GTD and getting things done. And so mm-hmm, from the beginning we organized it. And so, um, every launch that we have and has its own [00:11:30] slack thread, and, um, every team has their own slack thread, uh, every, every project. And so we're really, really gangster about talking about that launch on that thread.
Speaker 2: And, and so started from the beginning it's onboarded. Uh, at first it, people were kind of murky about it and I've replied to emails, uh, is slack broken without like all I've replied to emails , and, and it, it really just because there's a lot of importance here. One is transparency. If there's [00:12:00] a project, usually multiple people are working on it. And so having a two-way conversation, unless it absolutely needs to be private is just kind of damaging. It creates redundancy, right? Mm-hmm and then usually 10 people know the answer to a question. And so you ask it on a slack thread, first person can do it. And so really it really hinges around, uh, I think transparency and, and stopping these, these 1 0 1 conversations that don't need to happen. And we did it early on. And so now it is ingrained. [00:12:30] And I mean, I trying to do it at a large I'm sure would be way harder than how we have it now.
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm
Speaker 2: And I dunno if there's anything you wanna add?
Speaker 3: No, I mean, I, I echo all that. Um, it's like, Slack's not perfect by any means. None of the messaging systems are. Yeah. But it's, it's worlds better than email. Um, you know, with the organizational techniques we can cause it's, you can top down organizational kind of structure, right? Like Steven was saying, you can force everything into one channel, whereas with email it's kind [00:13:00] of all over the map. Um, and the, the real, one of the, one of the big benefits too, is that we are, I don't wanna say immune from, but let's say less prone to Phish attacks, for example. Hmm. Because, you know, the people there's, you know, to, of hackers out there who will get, you know, will spoof, like Steven's email, for example, and try to email our AP person and be like, Hey, would you send a wire to this company? And instantly you can be like, well, that's fake because Steven would never send an email mm-hmm . Um, so there's, there's kind of like second and third benefits, [00:13:30] you know, tertiary benefits to that, um, that are, are really nice, not something we planned on, but kind of, of, as I kinda shook out, you're like, oh, this is actually actually very, a nice little benefit. Mm-hmm
Speaker 1: So when you, I, I just wanna jump in here real quick. Y go ahead. No, please. Um, I think that those are all excellent points and it kind of leads me into just how you were thinking and formulating and starting your business. And we work with a lot of like D to C brands and like D TOC is definitely like, the hot topic is a hot word right now, hot. Uh, and I'm, you [00:14:00] know, for me, I see this more DDC as like a distribution model versus a actual business model. Um, and I'm, I'm really curious to, you know, when you were starting this starting good or, um, you started out as a DDC now you've gone into this sort of wholesale world. You were working with retail partners all over. Um, so, you know, do you think it's necessary for DDC brands to expand their distribution to retailers in order in order to grow?
Speaker 2: And I think it varies. I think it really [00:14:30] depends. Uh, we've seen, you know, we were, we started as a DDC brand. Like that's what we were. Yeah. We started getting interest from retailers, from our, you know, our margin. We could, we could do it. And so we, we went into B2B pretty quickly and we kind of saw this, um, this slide of most of our business direct consumer than two thirds of our business being B to B, and now we're back the other way. And so they do feed each other. Uh, I think you absolutely [00:15:00] have to have a help healthy, direct consumer brand in this day and age. We saw that in COVID. I mean, that's what allowed us to, um, um, uh, keep going and thriving mm-hmm and so it really depends. Uh, I, I think it's good. Uh, and I think one of the main reasons is you get a lot of free advertising being in stores. And so if you can make it work for you, it, it, it helps you, uh, more than hurts you, as long as you don't let it get too big.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I, I, to [00:15:30] see control, I mean, there's, yeah, there there's, um, as long as you make sure you're not, um, kind of sacrificing, uh, financially or operationally, even to do, to, to get in the stores. I mean, you know, this isn't the 1980s anymore. You don't need to be in Nordstroms to get your name out there. Mm-hmm, , there's so many other ways to, to do that. And so just making sure that there's gonna be some deals you just say no to, um, and being aware of that, just because either the, you know, they're asking for too steep, a discount, or, you [00:16:00] know, they're asking for too much from you operationally. I mean, if some of the vendor manuals we get now from some of the bigger retailers are like a hundred pages long of things they require from you, if it was just myself and Steven doing that, we would be a nightmare. I mean, it would be, all we do is like take care of that one vendor and you kind of then get into the situation where your energy's way too focused on one thing. Once you have a team who can handle that and who can focus on it, it's not as, it's not as big as ask, but mm-hmm, yeah. Just making sure that you're not, you're not, you know, focusing on it to the detriment of your DDC
Speaker 1: [00:16:30] Mm-hmm so a, um, you know, looking, looking deeper into gooder, uh, you built the brand on basically four pillars and, and I think that's really helped set the stage for the culture, the rich culture that I was speaking to earlier. Um, and I'm just gonna read them the off what I have as, uh, one work hard, play hard, love that it's always been a big motto in my life. Two don't take life too. Seriously, three ever tried, ever failed, no matter, try again, [00:17:00] fail again, fail better, and four have fun. So we speak a lot about sustainability and how that is outside, or let's just say more than just environmental. And when I look at these four pillars, it really seems that there's an element of sustainability written within the, between the lines of these, um, you know, basically maintaining spirit, maintaining personality, maintaining focus, um, you know, what, what is it that led you to, to create these? Is this something, these four pillars that you [00:17:30] set the, the brand on something you did early on, or did these evolve as an, as you start hiring people and, and, and working more?
Speaker 2: Where'd you get those from? I'm curious. Cause I, I don't, I don't, I don't have those as our four.
Speaker 1: I, I, I would love to hear your four. I got them from a site called good wire that had an article. Oh, got it about you guys.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I think, I think you, you captured the essence of it. Sorry, but, um,
Speaker 1: No, I would love to hear please, correct me.
Speaker 2: No, no. Um, you know, I always think about, um, [00:18:00] uh, it's hard. What we focus on now versus I think have fun is absolutely what we started with. We thought running was fun. And, um, and so we wanted to build a brand around that. Um, uh, you know, our three things, our two core values are, have fun, um, uh, authenticity. So making the goal being if the goal is being, uh, uh, authentic and people don't like you it's okay. If the goal's being liked people, don't like you, you're fucked. It's like, we don't need to be liked. We just need to be ourselves. And, and the third one in there is [00:18:30] challenging the status quo. And there's a lot that wraps up in that. And, um, you know, I think Ben and I talk about this a lot, love sunglasses, a really fun brand, but what the coolest thing about having a, a successful brand is, um, being able to invest in things like 1% for the planet, which I'll let Ben talk about. And then for me, it's being able to run the culture. We put people first at our company. It's a really important thing. And so, uh, [00:19:00] the, the business is awesome, but it has allowed us to do other things that we're passionate about. And like that is made all the difference.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Actually just covered you guys through 1% for the planet. So we're members as well. Um, I was at the event in Portland a couple years ago. Uh, you guys are giving out free sunglasses and that's, that was my introduction to gooder. And I actually haven't bought a single pair outside of gooder since cuz they're fantastic. Um, but Ben, I would love to hear what sort of inspired that, that idea or that, [00:19:30] uh, um, you know, joining 1%.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, I, I, I, you know, I think pretty early on we, you know, as part of, you know, you know, I think we made, I don't know how large were Stephen, but we started doing read gooder. Like we just had this, we had like a monthly book club essentially internally. It was mm-hmm I mean, maybe there were, was 10 people there. Maybe it might have been less than that, even it was early
Speaker 2: 18. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Um, and I think one of the first books we read [00:20:00] was, um, let my people surf by Ivan ARD. And it was, you know, I obviously I knew about, I knew something. I knew some about Patagonia's story and kind of what, what their values were. Um, but it was just very kind of inspirational to see this billion dollar company, um, kind of bucking the trend of sacrificing, um, your, your values in order to grow bigger. And that indeed you don't need to do that. It's not a mm-hmm , it's not a zero sum game. It's not, you know, oh, [00:20:30] for the, for every value trade off the, you get this many dollars, they, they can prove that you can maintain who you are and make an insane amount of money. I mean, mm-hmm, you talk to any entrepreneur out there, if they told you your, your business is worth a billion dollars, they would take that in a heartbeat.
Speaker 3: Um, so I mean, that was, that was hugely inspirational then obviously within that, we learned about 1% for the planet. Um, and it, you know, had that conversation. It was a pretty easy decision, um, from both Steven and I, as far as, you know, making [00:21:00] that commitment early on so that it doesn't become cause when, when, when you're 1% is maybe a, you know, a thousand dollars then you know, that that's, that's pretty easy. Um, but you know, if you, if you are a hundred million dollar company and all of a sudden you're gonna donate a million dollars, then you start to think, well, I mean, a million dollars is that, is that too much? Is this and that, but like by percentage it's, it's the same. And so making that commitment early on was for important to kind of maintain that. Um, [00:21:30] and it, it, the nice thing too, is it kind of, kind of in, you know, uh, ingrained in us this kind of idea of giving back.
Speaker 3: And so, you know, we work with, I mean, a ton of charities, but even outside of 1% that are, you know, aren't included in that 1% calculation. Um, and it's never a question if, you know, someone approaches us and wants to do like a co-brand to promote stuff. So we did one with like the Denver zoo recently, um, and it was, you know, we didn't, it was, you know, basically donated all proceeds. And that was, that was an easy decision because [00:22:00] it's just part of our culture now. Um, and 1% kind of helped us, you know, basically make that commitment and make it real, something more than just like window dressing, something that's, you know, you know, we're legally bound to, to make these commitments, not, you know, as a lawyer, I love that you put something down on paper. That means something in my mind. Mm-hmm so,
Speaker 1: And, you know, going back to the idea of culture and this, that question is really directed at Steven in a way, um, you know, having that idea of fun [00:22:30] and really making sure that, um, that's like a live well in the company. How do you sort of integrate that into your marketing, um, in, in a sustainable way?
Speaker 2: Uh, yeah, it's a really interesting if, you know, if you see the brand, the absurdity and the residency is basically a direct reflection of myself, Ben and, and Carrie who's, uh, also our, our third co-founder Uhhuh when she went to high school with us too. And, uh, and I think what's interesting is [00:23:00] I think sometimes when people see our brand from the outside, they think that we just sit around and slam margaritas all day mm-hmm . And so we've had to do a lot of work to communicate what we mean by fun. And to us fun is, is being good. Like that's really important and being inclusive and being inspiring fun is not celebrating without hard work mm-hmm . And we work really, really hard and something that's a constant reminder in our culture is gooder is a fun place to work. If you love the work, [00:23:30] not an easy place to work, actually mm-hmm and that's something we had to kind of come to, uh, head with in the past couple of years, you know, we're 75 people now and, and really understanding what we mean by fun. And, and so it it's, it's been a really fun, no pun intended fun journey to, to figure that out and make sure that, uh, make sure that we are living into that value ourselves. Did that answer your question? It,
Speaker 1: It, it does. And I, and I'm curious to what, [00:24:00] um, you say it's hard. Like what makes it hard? Is it, what are the challenges that you, that you, um, face as, as like a unique brand?
Speaker 2: Yeah. Uh, you know, and I think so for example, it is so good or we do quarterly reviews. We don't do yearly. So every quarter we have a quarterly review process and, uh, we're really big on feedback. And what's what we learned early on is when we onboarded people, is that there's a fair amount of deprogramming we [00:24:30] have to do because people aren't used to our culture and people are not used to giving nor receiving feedback. And so we train people how to do that and, and quarterly, um, uh, I'm I still sit in every quarterly review and there's a, a committee and, and people are like, Hey, here's what I've done. And so it's kind of a, like, so people have to they're on the hook, you can't hide it good. Or it's actually impossible. And I think that's an uncommon thing, you know, when you work at a company and there's Janus over in the corner, that's been there for 15 [00:25:00] years and nobody, nobody quite knows what Janus does that doesn't exist. That doesn't exist at gooder. So, so I think the big thing is you, you can't hide. Uh, and, and that is different than a lot of places.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I read through some of the, in the same article that I quoted earlier, so I hope this is accurate. Yeah. Um, but I read through some of your, your onboarding stuff, um, and your applicant process and, you know, is it true? You have people draw, test, draw a, an octopus
Speaker 2:
Speaker 3: [00:25:30] Well, it's octopus fighting up pirate
Speaker 1: There, you octopus finding up pirate. There we go. Okay. That sounds, that's amazing. Um,
Speaker 3: Yeah, you have no idea how hard it is to get, say, uh, people applying for an accountancy job to take that requirement. Seriously. I literally passed over dozens of, from very competent people for our finance team who just didn't draw the picture. I was like, I was like, come on, we're serious. We even put like, in like brackets we're serious. Um,
Speaker 1: So I mean, I think that's, I think it's brilliant. Um, [00:26:00] and I, I would love to hear like how you came to that idea and, and what drove it. Were you just seeing, um, that you weren't getting the type, the people that you wanted, like, how'd that come about?
Speaker 2: Ben? Do you remember? Like, it it's fuzzy in my mind.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, I, I, I legitimately think it's one of those. So, I mean, we would, I mean, this, I mean, this is an extension of like all the, I reverence that Steven was talking about. So it started at some funny. So [00:26:30] I think in addition to, you know, drawing that picture, we also required that people be, be okay with, uh, wrestling with a golden retriever. And, uh, what was, what was the Bosley requirement there was like,
Speaker 2: Yeah. Something with
Speaker 3: Rubbing
Speaker 2: Something bassing out. I can't remember.
Speaker 3: Yeah. But basically, you know, is kinda of a joke. I mean, obviously, you know, it's, it's recommended you Russell with my gold retriever because he is wonderful. And, but it's not, it obviously not requirement, but I think what we found is that [00:27:00] as we move forward and kept that requirement to of people who sent us the picture who actually did it were, were by and large one, uh, more they're, they're probably more likely to, to get our culture and one to be there. And two, when you give someone a task before you're giving them money, um, and they do it, it's a good indication that they're the kind of person that at they're a doer, you know, mm-hmm, , they're, they don't, they don't sit back. They, they see some, they, they kind of see an opportunity and, you know, [00:27:30] it's, it's, it's gone beyond that too, where, you know, the there's people who've gone above and beyond anything like that.
Speaker 3: I remember like someone brought like a shrimp cocktail one time right. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, it's, it's that kind of thing. Like, I don't think any, these things are, you know, you know, absolutely necessary. And like I said, I'm sure we've, we've, we've glossed over very capable candidates who didn't draw the picture, but it, I think it's, you know, it hiring's hard and anything you can do to try to get some indication of, you know, an applicant's actual desire [00:28:00] to be there and be with your company rather than just to paycheck. I mean, do whatever you can.
Speaker 2: I, I remember the origin of it now. Um, Ben wrote the, uh, P the, on our website, like if you, uh, the return policy and early, early on in the return policy, there's a line that says, you know, to issue return and we never were serious about it. You must, um, also submit a drawing of, of, uh, an octopus fighting a pirate. Yeah. . And so our customers would actually start, would do it. And, and it [00:28:30] was a really funny thing. And so when we started actually hiring people that weren't our friends, um, I just always loved that. And so I just threw that on there as a requirement. And to Ben's point, it's a litness test and mm-hmm, , it shows one, you read the whole thing and two that you're willing to, and, uh, it's still there. Like, we throw your resume in the garbage, if it doesn't come with this and that doesn't, it can be the worst drawing in the world. That's not the point. It's the point that you did it.
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm I feel you, I should frame those and have like a wall of, of, of submissions.
Speaker 2: Oh, we're collecting them. We're [00:29:00] uh, now that we have a DC, uh, uh, I legit have a box full of them that, that I wants, at some point we're gonna like depo a wall with them and make it like wallpaper.
Speaker 1: Oh, that's awesome. Or, or if someone, you could do a tattoo, someone's gotta get tattoo of one of 'em.
Speaker 2: Well, there, four of our staff members got a tattoo of Carl, uh, uh, on, uh, on one trip, uh, Carl Domingo, our, our mascot. Uh, so that, that was pretty cool.
Speaker 1: That's dedication. That's loyal. Yep.
Speaker 1: So, um, continuing went on with the idea of [00:29:30] your onboarding process. Like, you know, I'm, I'm really fascinated by it, cuz I haven't quite seen or read about other, uh, companies, onboarding process quite like yours and you know, I, I think there's a lot of interesting ideas behind behind it. Um, and so, you know, I love the idea of, and correct me again, if this is wrong, um, that you, you know, have a 15 minute connection call with every employee, so they gotta call everyone. Um, there's like a sort of a personality test. Um, [00:30:00] and what else are you guys kind of doing to help, um, facilitate that in integration into your culture?
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, we, we, we recognize early on that our culture is so different. We have to do a fair amount of deprogramming and, and so that's kind of where this came from. Um, we have a podcast called the culture good or podcast and actually did a whole episode on our onboarding because it, uh, it's so vast, but it basically it's three months, it's really intense the first week you actually don't even [00:30:30] really do anything like close to your role. So, um, everybody, uh, we do, we use what's called engram. And so everybody gets like, like test for that. It's like, mm-hmm, basically like your, um, like a personality test that we work off of. We use GTD, which is getting things done. It's how we it's productivity and product management. So everybody's taught that, uh, everybody in the first three months has to set up and do a 15 minute connection call with everybody at the entire company.
Speaker 2: Cause you know, you work for companies sometimes and [00:31:00] you never talk to people. You're like, oh, that new person started, I don't know who they are and we just never wanted to become that. And so the four questions are, you know, what do you do at gooder? What do you do outside of gooder? Uh, what's your spirit animal and why, and if you had unlimited funds, where would you take a month long trip to? And so everybody, everybody does that. Uh, also obviously everybody goes and uh, gets a bunch of free sunglasses and I know there's like there's [00:31:30] other things involved like scavenger hunt. And then within the first three months, everybody has to of all the, with 12 different flocks. So like ops finance, content design, uh, each flock leader does a 30 minute deep dive of like, Hey, here's what our flock does. Here's our values. Here's who's on the team. And so that everybody just gets a really full picture of our ecosystem and it's, it's like kind of an immersion mm-hmm
Speaker 1: mm-hmm . And so are you finding that, um, you're [00:32:00] attracting a certain personality type, you know, you're taking the, the, the sort of personality test in a way. Um, are you finding that there's just a general type of person that's drawn to, um, working at gooder,
Speaker 2: You know, early on Carrie and I did the vast majority of the hiring, so we use the Ingram, so there's like type seven. So like I'm a type seven business type five, uh Carrie's type nine. And early on, when we started using Igram, when we first got tested, we were disproportionately seven to nines and we were laughing. We're like, well, that's what happens when Carrie and [00:32:30] Steven do all the hiring and now we have a team that does it. Our, our hiring process is seven steps. The first two are blind now mm-hmm . And so in the past year and a half, we've gotten a lot more diverse because of all these things we added in. And so I think early on, yes, now it's quite a bit different. Uh, I think the one common thing is what Ben talked to is people who end up here want to work and want to do good work and mm-hmm and I think that's, that's shown by them making it through, um, a [00:33:00] pretty in depth hiring process. Now mm-hmm,
Speaker 1: now you, you talked earlier about how, uh, you put people first and I, it, it sounds like that just from the, our conversation so far, um, but I would love to hear more about like what you're doing to help continue to build the gooder community, um, to help continue to build the relationships amongst your team and, and how you're putting people first, you know, do you have like specific, like, I, I saw you have tons of like races and stuff on your site. Um, is that, is that part of it?
Speaker 2: [00:33:30] Yeah, I mean, um, one is just, we really want people to get better. Mm-hmm and so mm-hmm uh, so that goes back to the quarterly reviews, clear feedback. Um, we have a lot of continuing education, um, part of our early on, uh, people read the, have you read Daniel PO Pink's book drive?
Speaker 1: I have not.
Speaker 2: So, uh, it's, it's amazing. And, and early on, I can 2017, when we realize like, oh, we have real people and we have to give pay raises [00:34:00] performance system and Uhhuh . We looked at drive and drive is an amazing book that Daniel pink does on like what really motivates people. And there are three things mm-hmm, , there's autonomy. Um, there, you know, making your own decisions, there's mastery getting better at something that matters and purpose doing, doing something bigger than yourself. And so mm-hmm, Ben and I actually were like the architect of, of amp. Um, and, and, and so we call amp autonomy, mastery purpose, and mm-hmm , it is how we run the company. And so autonomy [00:34:30] is like a lot of your job and, and sharing what you do mastery is everybody takes on a mastery project every year of like improving a skill. And then purpose is 10% time of doing something. Maybe it's working for a profit. Um, I think Ben's first perfect project was getting us on 1% for the planet mm-hmm . And so we have a lot of these things there that's like, that's really gauged, like making people better and making the world better. Mm-hmm and I know if, if anything you wanna add there,
Speaker 3: No, I, uh, pretty much nails it, but yeah, to, to Steven's just to [00:35:00] expand on one thing, um, you know, the idea of letting, like having people be, you know, kind of leaving people better than they arrived in, in some respect is kind of my, is the dream behind amp in my mind. And I know there's a ton of, is, you know, there's a ton of jobs out there that you can get that you're kind of meant to tread water at. Um, you know, I don't know, I've never worked at Amazon for example, but I can't imagine the upward mobility of a, you know, DC worker at [00:35:30] Amazon's, uh, great at all. Um, and that always bothered me. I kind of wanted no matter what your job is, you know, I'd want, I'd want there to be a chance or an ability to get better at something.
Speaker 3: And, you know, even if that's, you know, working your way through and becoming like the lead DC person or, you know, running a warehouse, becoming a COO, whatever that might be, or maybe it's, I'm working a DC, but I really want to do design well for us. If, if some were to come to us [00:36:00] in our DC and say, Hey, you know, you know, working at DC is fine, but my real passion is to become a graphic designer. Would you be willing to, you know, uh, pay for a subscription to Adobe or, you know, would you be willing to come, you know, kind of, uh, reimburse me for classes I'm a to take online for design. I mean, I I'd say they're almost unequivocally the answer would be yes, because we want people to get better at something that matters to them. I mean, even, even it doesn't necessarily have to do with their job. We could, I mean, it's pretty easy for us to be sold in that, for that reason. [00:36:30] And, you know, just because I, we want people, even if they, you know, a good outcome for us is someone leaves good for a better job? I would say. I mean, Stephen, you, you can correct me if I'm, I agree. I, if I'm being a too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, but go ahead. Sorry.
Speaker 2: No, no, I'm no I'll stop.
Speaker 3: No, I, yeah. I, I, I, I think for us that's that means that someone came to gooder. Hopefully they got better at a skill that my added and they were able to leverage that [00:37:00] into a better job than we can provide. Obviously we would, you know, if we could counter that and keep 'em, um, we would, we would try our best, but if, you know, we've had people leave, like actually our DC, for example, I think one gentleman in particular who left for an amazing job. And I was just like, you know, he, we were crushed because he was so good and he like, he did his job. So, but the job he's going to is awesome. So you're just, all you can do is just be like, just be happy for him. So mm-hmm, ,
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm, , um, you know, I think we touched on it a little bit earlier, but there's that idea that, [00:37:30] you know, this, this actually takes away from the bottom line of a business and I, I argue it doesn't, but, um, are you seeing returns, um, in your, in your growth as, as a, as a business, um, from the, from the focus on keeping, um, your employees happy, engaged, learning, and, and finding out what motivates them to, to do their best?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree, John. I, I, would I push back on that? I think it's quite the opposite, you know? Yeah. Well, we [00:38:00] value high performers. We train people cuz good or the expect is that you're perfect or that you never fails that you learn and just keep growing. And, you know, we, we track a revenue per employee. Uh, that's kind of a, a metric we use. And I think we Excel with much less people than a lot of comp because of all of this work we put into the staff
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm mm-hmm um, and so like [00:38:30] obviously we've been going through like really challenging year, um, emotionally, um, stress wise there's business or at home. Um, and morale is just like one of these constant things that I think needs to be, or at least be some social listening, at least on your teams. Um, you know, what are you doing to like, keep the morale up amongst your, uh, 75 employees?
Speaker 2: Yeah, man, it's, you know, it's no playbook for this, right? Uh, yeah. I always pride myself in having backup [00:39:00] plan for the backup plans, just pandemic a pandemic backup plan. Never made it to the list. Um,
Speaker 2: but you know, I think a couple things, one is we were always a, a 60% virtual company. So even before you had been in the office, Tuesdays and Thursdays, Monday, Wednesday, Friday was optional mm-hmm and because of slack and a lot of other things, we were able to pivot really easy to this virtual world. So that was a gift. And so, um, I, but [00:39:30] fatigue is real right now, screen fatigue, just general world fatigue. Um, you know, not to mention, um, um, just everything's going on this year, black lives matter, the election, like, like this has been a heavy fucking year mm-hmm and, and it's something that is just top of mind. And so, um, what are we doing? One is during our weekly staff meeting, we have week, you know, everybody has, um, uh, put, puts [00:40:00] in a box, um, it's life overwhelm and good or overwhelm and so good or overwhelm is just workload.
Speaker 2: And so it's basically a red, yellow, green, right? Like green is good yellow issues, red as you got problems. And it's obviously, we actually define those little bit clearer than that, but , and so we added the personal one so that we give people space to kind of own like, Hey, I'm doing my job. I'm just not okay. And so every week everybody updates, it updates this. And if it's strictly related [00:40:30] to good or, um, your team leader, uh, connects with you and it's like, Hey, what's going on? Like, well, how can I help? What can we move around? You know, spend less time on this. If it's connected to life, uh, we actually have a person on sta staff, Sean, his title's chief relationship officer, and he'll reach out and like, Hey, what's going on? What do we need? And so the big thing is we are creating space for people not to be okay. Like, like, like, like it's cuz it it's just okay. Not to be okay. And yeah. Um, and we're doing other things, you know, virtual happy hours and [00:41:00] stuff, but it's just, it's hard. And also I think sometimes after you spend all day working and on video calls, the last thing you wanna do is sit on another zoom call and have a exactly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm you speak to fatigue. I'm definitely fatigued on, um, the, the zoom phenomen that's popped up. I don't think it's necessarily a sustain over the next few years. I mean, my calendar used to be full of phone calls and now suddenly they're just full of video calls but nothing's really changed. I wouldn't have saw them anyway. Uh, you know, so it, it's definitely not sustainable, [00:41:30] um, long term, but, um, you know, for the time being, it's it, you know, I always put the note I give, I give a note in there, as you say, give them the space to say, you can just call me if you want it doesn't have to be, to be a video. And I think that's a really important point is to make sure you're giving your people space to, to feel things. Um, cause oftentimes we're told, you know, not to share, especially in a workplace.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. I, I start paying people, Hey, do we need to look at anything on this call? Can if, especially to one on [00:42:00] one, like, can we, or can we just do it on a call? Like, can we just go walk? Like mm-hmm
Speaker 1: Yeah. Mm-hmm um, so is there's a level of social listening or listening to your police and, and team, are you extending that into your key community as far as like your, your good or customers, um, are you, how are you like doing the social listening and, and hearing them? So you're not, you know, selling when it's inappropriate or when they're not ready to hear those messages and so forth.
Speaker 2: Man, it's a good question. You know, [00:42:30] we made a decision early on in COVID to, we're a fun brand we're in Reverend brand and we really stayed away from oh, how to keep busy and you know, like, like, like was like, we just wanted to give people actually a respite from COVID mm-hmm mm-hmm . Um, and so that's real, you know, but we're, we're I think the most things you don't see that we do, right? Like, like, oh, this is going on, we should move that launch, like is not a right time to launch a product. Um, you know, obviously, um, um, blackout Tuesday, [00:43:00] um, and really just listening to what's going on. But I would say that most of the things we do, you don't see because we move them or push them because of what's going on in the world, but it's yeah, it's, this is not a new easy year. Um, uh, and understanding that our customers are, you know, we're very inclusive and our customers represent the, a big thing. And so, um, we just try and be ourselves and, and as empathetic as [00:43:30] possible. Mm-hmm
Speaker 3: . Yeah. And I, I mean maybe more granular and day to, we have a incredible customer service team, um, and they, God bless them. Uh, they deal on the front lines with people who I think oftentimes, um, are, you know, like you said, are just going through rough year, like everyone is mm-hmm mm-hmm and maybe take out their frustrations in the wrong, in the wrong way with the wrong people. Mm-hmm . Um, but they do a [00:44:00] really good job of like Steven says trying to approach, um, every conversation with empathy, even if they aren't receiving the same treatment in return. And, you know, we, they, they, they will share emails with the whole team on slack of people who are just awesome. And so, you know, too many of our customers that are out there listening that, uh, that share happy things with our customer service.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much because you make their day, honestly make our day. Um, we, [00:44:30] we really care about our customers and so we take complaints and we take concerns, all this kind of stuff. Extremely seriously, we respond, we, you know, we try to respond to every email, like 124 hours. Um, and for a company, you know, that's, that's our size. That's not easy to do. And our, you know, our customer service, um, folks are, you know, they, they do an incredible job to try and hit mark. Um, so it is something that we like on the day to day, we pay attention to
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm , they're doing God's work. And, um, and the other thing, Ben, you probably, um, [00:45:00] speak to kind of, kind of how we approached our retailers in may and April when COVID hit. Cause a lot of our accounts are small, you know, um, run shops, mom and pops and, um, uh, um, I don't, but if you could kind of speak to like what the approach we took there, cuz like we, we Ize a lot of empathy with even our B2B partners. Mm-hmm
Speaker 3: yeah. I mean, you know, in, in March obviously, you know, everyone was terrified. I mean, like we, we had no idea where this was gonna go and [00:45:30] you know, our, you know, being a little candid here, our, our B2B accounts dropped, you know, our, our sales on like from year, year over year dropped 90%. Mm-hmm I mean, which is just, I mean, your heart goes into your throat when you see stuff like that. When you're look at the numbers, you're just like, we may not survive this. Um, and we were able to stabilize, you know, around know, end of April, may to the point where we were, we, I was no longer, it was no longer an existential threat. I wasn't worried about if we were gonna be able to pay payroll anymore. I was still and [00:46:00] still am very worried about, you know, just general business things.
Speaker 3: But of course, uh, no longer as essential threat, but you know, once we kind of stabilized and EV actually, even before we, you know, I still sit in on our finance meetings with our, our VP of finance and our, you know, controller and our AP person, any our person. Um, and we, we talked about, um, you know, we, we had, we had customers who were on 30 day terms, you know, they'd buy us sunglasses from us and then we, they pay us 30 days later. Um, [00:46:30] we basically reached out to you or the person in charge of reaching out and dealing with the customers for payment basically reached out in a very kind of, uh, hopefully, uh, sympathetic and empathetic way as far as like, Hey, listen, we would obviously love for you to pay us on time. Um, because you know, we need the money and cash flow is the thing for business.
Speaker 3: Um, but given that, you know, those store were shut down and people couldn't go to them and buy things. And indeed some of 'em are still, you know, at like 10%. [00:47:00] I mean, we, we tried to, we basically told them that, you know, we weren't going to, you know, make any collection efforts. So if they couldn't pay us, they couldn't pay us. Um, and we just, we kind of let people pay us whenever they could. And I tell you that from orders that were due, when the pandemic hit, I think we have been fully paid up and, you know, it took a lot longer, but no one, no one Welch on what they owed us, you know, they eventually paid up when they could. And I like, it's, it's [00:47:30] really kind of heartwarming to see, um, that, that, that our kindness was repaid with, with them repaying us, you know, I guess literally repaying us.
Speaker 3: Um, so it's, it's, you know, it's good. And so we, we just kind of trying to understand, like, you know, cuz our retailers are our customers as well, just, they're just as important as, you know, our, our, you know, D TOC customers. Um, and so we want to, we wanna make sure we take care of them, cuz I mean, especially early on those like single, um, store run shops were huge for [00:48:00] us. Mm-hmm um, they did so much work in just like pumping our brands tires and making sure people knew abouting us. And like, you know, people would walk in their stores and they would, they would talk us up. Um, and so we, you know, I will never forget that, like, you know, they're, they're great for us and we wanna be as helpful as we can to be for them. So mm-hmm
Speaker 1: Um, Jim, and I appreciate all your time today. I know you have a very packed schedule. Um, so I'm gonna start to wrap things up a bit and, and as we do, I just wanna give another shout to 1% for the planet, cuz I think they're doing some it's great work [00:48:30] and um, and I'm, I'm aware you do you make, you make their own sort of special pair of sunglasses, is that right?
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We, uh, we work with them to create a kind of fully, uh, recycled pair basically. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So it's made from, from fresh. Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing
Speaker 3: Plastics. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah. that's amazing. Yeah.
Speaker 3: We, we call this, we called them, uh, these shades are trash, uh, was the name of the color way. So
Speaker 1: Yeah. [00:49:00] Yeah. I love your, the, the BR the, um, names you have on your, for your shades. I have the, the ones I have on my head, I think are the ginger soul or the other, um, which is I fall into that category as blonde as I am. I can't spend more than three minutes in the sun, um, before pretty pretty bright red. Yeah. Um, so I'm just gonna direct people to your site, gooder, gooder.co.com, right.com. Yeah. Um, and, um, can they, people buy the 1% [00:49:30] sunglasses on, right. Are they up right now?
Speaker 3: We, we
Speaker 1: Sold out. Okay.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we sold out, but we, I mean, they, they sold out, um, so much quicker than we ever thought. Uh, it was a huge success. Um, so we, we, we were talking with 1%, we're gonna do it again next year for earth day. Awesome. Um, and I, I may be stepping on toes here, but I'll go ahead. I think, I think even REI might be, um, in, on that launch this time around. Cause they were super excited about it. So yeah, we're, we're, we're, we're [00:50:00] doing it again. We're, we're super excited about it. It's, you know, obviously one percent's huge for us. Um, anything we can do to get their message out more broadly, um, is awesome. And uh, yeah. So yeah, will be a available again in a few months, I guess.
Speaker 1: Great. Well, thank you. Congrats on that. RI that's a great partner to have
Speaker 3: For sure. Yeah. They're awesome.
Speaker 1: Um, well congrats and thanks again, gentlemen.
Speaker 3: Awesome. Thanks Jonathan, John, this is a pleasure.
Speaker 1: If you have any questions, comments, or want to be on the show, please email [00:50:30] me personally@jweareonconcord.com.