1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,116 you kind of get access to hidden knowledge 2 00:00:03,183 --> 00:00:05,583 or experiences that you don't remember you had 3 00:00:05,583 --> 00:00:07,783 as your boy experiences those things 4 00:00:07,783 --> 00:00:10,816 you kind of get to experience them through him 5 00:00:10,816 --> 00:00:11,266 yeah I 6 00:00:11,266 --> 00:00:12,100 I think you know 7 00:00:12,100 --> 00:00:13,500 to your point there there's just something 8 00:00:13,500 --> 00:00:16,216 I mean being able to empathize with another person 9 00:00:16,216 --> 00:00:17,783 is just enormously helpful 10 00:00:17,783 --> 00:00:21,166 and it is just a fact that uh 11 00:00:21,183 --> 00:00:24,133 certain experiences are kind of uh 12 00:00:24,133 --> 00:00:26,783 unique to your sex or your gender and 13 00:00:26,783 --> 00:00:29,216 and certain experiences like 14 00:00:29,216 --> 00:00:32,266 when you can have some guidance from someone 15 00:00:32,266 --> 00:00:33,966 who knows what that is like 16 00:00:34,216 --> 00:00:35,616 there's going to be something about that 17 00:00:35,616 --> 00:00:37,566 that that is enormously helpful to you 18 00:00:44,816 --> 00:00:46,900 welcome back to Raising Men 19 00:00:46,900 --> 00:00:48,700 I'm your host Shawn Dawson 20 00:00:48,700 --> 00:00:51,133 now we often talk on this show 21 00:00:51,133 --> 00:00:55,016 about the missing roadmap from modern manhood 22 00:00:55,016 --> 00:00:57,966 the fact that our sons are growing up in a world 23 00:00:57,983 --> 00:01:01,466 that sends them loud often contradictory 24 00:01:01,466 --> 00:01:05,033 messages about what it means to be a man 25 00:01:05,183 --> 00:01:07,300 but today's guest has maybe 26 00:01:07,300 --> 00:01:09,416 a slightly different point of view 27 00:01:09,416 --> 00:01:11,583 which I'm really eager to get into 28 00:01:11,583 --> 00:01:13,066 Jordan Ritter Con 29 00:01:13,066 --> 00:01:16,033 is a senior staff writer at the Ringer 30 00:01:16,233 --> 00:01:17,816 and he's an acclaimed author 31 00:01:17,816 --> 00:01:21,783 known for his deep immersion journalism 32 00:01:21,783 --> 00:01:24,916 for his latest book American men 33 00:01:25,100 --> 00:01:27,466 Jordan spent five years 34 00:01:27,466 --> 00:01:30,866 almost living alongside four different 35 00:01:30,866 --> 00:01:32,233 very different men 36 00:01:32,416 --> 00:01:36,233 capturing the searing intimacy of their lives 37 00:01:36,266 --> 00:01:38,683 their failures and their triumphs 38 00:01:39,166 --> 00:01:40,016 now he kind of 39 00:01:40,016 --> 00:01:42,866 argues that these men have gotten the message 40 00:01:42,866 --> 00:01:44,383 of what it means to be a man 41 00:01:44,383 --> 00:01:48,383 loud and clear but the difficulty arises 42 00:01:48,383 --> 00:01:50,016 when they're confronted with the ways that 43 00:01:50,016 --> 00:01:52,300 they don't feel like they're living up to the ideal 44 00:01:52,300 --> 00:01:54,716 that they're holding in their own heads 45 00:01:54,783 --> 00:01:55,883 and the result 46 00:01:56,866 --> 00:01:59,100 this book is I think 47 00:01:59,100 --> 00:01:59,900 a result a 48 00:01:59,900 --> 00:02:03,333 a result of genuine intimate storytelling 49 00:02:03,333 --> 00:02:06,466 and like most stories it gets to the truth 50 00:02:06,466 --> 00:02:09,716 in a way that data and statistics can't 51 00:02:09,983 --> 00:02:12,383 Jordan thank you so much for joining us 52 00:02:12,383 --> 00:02:14,483 and welcome to Raising Men 53 00:02:14,783 --> 00:02:15,983 thank you so much for having me 54 00:02:15,983 --> 00:02:17,566 I'm I'm so thrilled to be here Sean 55 00:02:17,816 --> 00:02:19,066 so now 56 00:02:19,066 --> 00:02:22,466 how did you decide to embark on this journey 57 00:02:22,466 --> 00:02:24,383 this was five years ago and I 58 00:02:24,383 --> 00:02:26,466 I mean I think five years ago 59 00:02:26,466 --> 00:02:28,333 the vision of you know 60 00:02:28,333 --> 00:02:31,633 doing something on masculinity was 61 00:02:32,983 --> 00:02:34,700 most people if you told that to 62 00:02:34,700 --> 00:02:35,533 they would think that 63 00:02:35,533 --> 00:02:37,700 you're on a different journey than 64 00:02:37,700 --> 00:02:39,416 you actually ended up on 65 00:02:39,416 --> 00:02:41,133 so how did you decide to do this and 66 00:02:41,133 --> 00:02:42,533 and how do you feel about it 67 00:02:42,533 --> 00:02:43,583 yeah um 68 00:02:43,583 --> 00:02:45,200 so you know I 69 00:02:45,783 --> 00:02:48,616 I have always had going back to 70 00:02:48,616 --> 00:02:49,816 you know when I was a kid 71 00:02:49,816 --> 00:02:53,466 always had very close relationships with other boys and 72 00:02:53,466 --> 00:02:55,866 and with men in in my adulthood um 73 00:02:55,866 --> 00:02:58,433 the kind of friendships that we're often told that 74 00:02:58,616 --> 00:03:00,300 boys and men don't have um 75 00:03:00,300 --> 00:03:01,133 or or can't 76 00:03:01,133 --> 00:03:03,500 can't develop friendships that are based on 77 00:03:03,500 --> 00:03:05,216 you know real trust and intimacy 78 00:03:05,216 --> 00:03:07,500 really sharing things vulnerably 79 00:03:07,500 --> 00:03:09,783 um and uh 80 00:03:09,783 --> 00:03:10,183 and you know 81 00:03:10,183 --> 00:03:12,466 that that kind of carried over into my journalism 82 00:03:12,466 --> 00:03:13,333 once I became a journalist 83 00:03:13,333 --> 00:03:15,866 I kind of focused on um 84 00:03:15,866 --> 00:03:18,533 like you said kind of like immersive storytelling 85 00:03:18,533 --> 00:03:20,500 like really digging deep into 86 00:03:20,500 --> 00:03:22,500 into people's lives and 87 00:03:22,500 --> 00:03:24,383 you know a lot of my background is in sports 88 00:03:24,383 --> 00:03:26,133 and so if you're in sports journalism 89 00:03:26,133 --> 00:03:27,683 you spend a lot of time talking to men 90 00:03:28,466 --> 00:03:31,583 and and in the kind of journalism that I've done 91 00:03:31,583 --> 00:03:32,866 it's a lot of time talking to men 92 00:03:32,866 --> 00:03:34,900 about things that we're so often told 93 00:03:34,900 --> 00:03:36,866 that men don't really want to share 94 00:03:36,866 --> 00:03:39,016 talking with them about their insecurities 95 00:03:39,016 --> 00:03:41,016 talking with them about their failures 96 00:03:41,016 --> 00:03:42,533 talking with them about you know 97 00:03:42,533 --> 00:03:43,400 traumas 98 00:03:43,983 --> 00:03:45,433 and and so 99 00:03:45,866 --> 00:03:47,700 you know a few years ago 100 00:03:47,700 --> 00:03:49,833 and at this point um 101 00:03:50,066 --> 00:03:50,500 it's been 102 00:03:50,500 --> 00:03:52,500 it's now been six years since I really kind of 103 00:03:52,500 --> 00:03:54,466 embarked on on beginning this book uh 104 00:03:54,466 --> 00:03:55,100 just cause some some 105 00:03:55,100 --> 00:03:57,400 time has passed since I finished it now um 106 00:03:58,133 --> 00:04:00,916 I was I was just thinking like 107 00:04:00,933 --> 00:04:03,833 there's starting to be these conversations around 108 00:04:04,466 --> 00:04:07,583 around men about you'd see these headlines about 109 00:04:07,583 --> 00:04:07,700 like 110 00:04:07,700 --> 00:04:10,933 the first rumblings of headlines about male loneliness 111 00:04:10,933 --> 00:04:12,983 and in kind of the the late 20 112 00:04:12,983 --> 00:04:15,616 like 2018 1920 um 113 00:04:15,616 --> 00:04:19,733 you'd see the first rumblings of headlines about men 114 00:04:19,733 --> 00:04:22,933 kind of sometimes not carrying their emotional weight 115 00:04:22,933 --> 00:04:23,816 I I guess in 116 00:04:23,816 --> 00:04:25,816 in relationships you start hearing like 117 00:04:25,816 --> 00:04:27,583 terms like emotional labor start 118 00:04:27,583 --> 00:04:29,216 start kind of being introduced into the 119 00:04:29,216 --> 00:04:30,766 the way that we talk culturally 120 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:31,466 um 121 00:04:31,466 --> 00:04:35,483 you start to hear things about men's unwillingness to 122 00:04:35,500 --> 00:04:36,300 um you know 123 00:04:36,300 --> 00:04:37,416 seek professional help when 124 00:04:37,416 --> 00:04:39,100 when they're going through things um and 125 00:04:39,100 --> 00:04:40,383 and to uh 126 00:04:40,383 --> 00:04:41,016 you know to open 127 00:04:41,016 --> 00:04:42,966 open up let people into their lives 128 00:04:43,216 --> 00:04:44,816 and I just had the thought of like 129 00:04:44,816 --> 00:04:47,500 you know I've spent a lot of my personal life 130 00:04:47,500 --> 00:04:48,983 and now a lot of my professional life 131 00:04:48,983 --> 00:04:51,500 talking to men about these very things 132 00:04:51,500 --> 00:04:51,900 um I 133 00:04:51,900 --> 00:04:54,783 I feel like I've had experiences 134 00:04:54,783 --> 00:04:57,466 that have LED me to think that men are willing to 135 00:04:57,466 --> 00:04:59,866 open up are willing to kind of let people in 136 00:04:59,866 --> 00:05:02,233 do want to um 137 00:05:03,183 --> 00:05:05,266 kind of do some of this work that we're so often told 138 00:05:05,266 --> 00:05:06,816 that they don't and so I 139 00:05:06,816 --> 00:05:07,333 I thought like 140 00:05:07,333 --> 00:05:08,966 if I could cast a wide net 141 00:05:09,066 --> 00:05:10,216 find a few guys 142 00:05:10,216 --> 00:05:12,333 whose stories are so different from one another 143 00:05:12,333 --> 00:05:14,266 but who could add up to something kind of 144 00:05:14,266 --> 00:05:16,100 a larger picture um 145 00:05:16,100 --> 00:05:18,983 outside of just their individual stories that I could 146 00:05:18,983 --> 00:05:19,983 I could have something I I 147 00:05:19,983 --> 00:05:21,866 I could have a book that people might be really 148 00:05:21,866 --> 00:05:22,533 interested in and 149 00:05:22,533 --> 00:05:24,633 and drawn to um 150 00:05:24,700 --> 00:05:26,933 certainly when when I started this process 151 00:05:26,933 --> 00:05:28,933 the conversation around this stuff was very different 152 00:05:28,933 --> 00:05:29,933 than than it is now 153 00:05:29,933 --> 00:05:31,700 the conversation has gotten louder and louder 154 00:05:31,700 --> 00:05:33,216 and louder over the course of those 5 155 00:05:33,216 --> 00:05:34,033 6 years 156 00:05:34,616 --> 00:05:35,516 but 157 00:05:36,900 --> 00:05:38,983 I felt even back then 158 00:05:38,983 --> 00:05:41,516 like there would be a hunger for something like this 159 00:05:42,466 --> 00:05:44,500 yeah I think you're 100% right 160 00:05:44,500 --> 00:05:47,616 and I think you I think you've proven um 161 00:05:47,616 --> 00:05:48,700 your point there I 162 00:05:48,700 --> 00:05:51,616 one of the things that really struck me in 163 00:05:51,616 --> 00:05:52,516 in hearing 164 00:05:53,066 --> 00:05:54,900 um you talk about this 165 00:05:54,900 --> 00:05:59,516 is that there is this conception that men 166 00:05:59,933 --> 00:06:02,033 are not willing to talk about their feelings 167 00:06:02,183 --> 00:06:05,416 and you started this endeavor with just 168 00:06:05,416 --> 00:06:06,900 totally rejecting that 169 00:06:06,900 --> 00:06:08,700 and when I heard you talking about that it 170 00:06:08,700 --> 00:06:09,700 it occurred to me I really I 171 00:06:09,700 --> 00:06:11,416 I realized yeah 172 00:06:11,416 --> 00:06:13,200 the deal isn't that men 173 00:06:14,100 --> 00:06:17,666 don't want to open up and talk about that stuff they're 174 00:06:17,666 --> 00:06:18,333 and and 175 00:06:18,333 --> 00:06:19,416 nor is it the case 176 00:06:19,416 --> 00:06:21,783 that they're not capable of talking about it 177 00:06:21,783 --> 00:06:24,416 it's that they do not have safe spaces 178 00:06:24,416 --> 00:06:26,900 in which it's possible to talk about it 179 00:06:26,900 --> 00:06:28,616 without being judged 180 00:06:28,616 --> 00:06:31,583 without having maybe serious social repercussions 181 00:06:31,583 --> 00:06:34,566 or that sort of thing what do you think about yeah 182 00:06:35,216 --> 00:06:36,633 give me a response to that 183 00:06:37,066 --> 00:06:38,266 yeah um 184 00:06:38,266 --> 00:06:38,616 you know I 185 00:06:38,616 --> 00:06:43,583 I do think I think that the real key is 186 00:06:43,816 --> 00:06:44,666 you a couple things 187 00:06:44,666 --> 00:06:46,033 we um 188 00:06:46,666 --> 00:06:49,166 need to feel like the 189 00:06:49,166 --> 00:06:51,266 the other person is genuinely curious um 190 00:06:51,266 --> 00:06:55,183 need to feel like the other person really wants to know 191 00:06:55,183 --> 00:06:55,933 um and 192 00:06:55,933 --> 00:06:57,983 and so that often means 193 00:06:57,983 --> 00:06:59,783 we need to be asked things pretty directly 194 00:06:59,783 --> 00:07:00,133 I mean we 195 00:07:00,133 --> 00:07:01,933 we need to be given like 196 00:07:01,933 --> 00:07:03,733 kind of a permission structure for 197 00:07:03,733 --> 00:07:05,416 for opening up because we are 198 00:07:05,416 --> 00:07:08,300 we do kind of inherit these messages um 199 00:07:08,300 --> 00:07:10,300 that that's showing um 200 00:07:10,300 --> 00:07:13,383 any any kind of vulnerability or openness is 201 00:07:13,383 --> 00:07:15,100 is showing weakness um 202 00:07:15,100 --> 00:07:15,733 and and 203 00:07:15,733 --> 00:07:16,100 you know to 204 00:07:16,100 --> 00:07:17,416 to be honest with you we 205 00:07:17,416 --> 00:07:17,933 our culture 206 00:07:17,933 --> 00:07:20,983 often associates any sense of weakness with femininity 207 00:07:20,983 --> 00:07:23,066 and our culture as men we 208 00:07:23,066 --> 00:07:24,083 we are 209 00:07:24,233 --> 00:07:27,533 we learn these really lessons that kind of harm us all 210 00:07:27,533 --> 00:07:28,700 that that teach us to kind of 211 00:07:28,700 --> 00:07:30,733 reject femininity from the time we're very 212 00:07:30,733 --> 00:07:31,416 very young 213 00:07:31,533 --> 00:07:32,016 you know but I 214 00:07:32,016 --> 00:07:35,616 I think that we need to to really be invited in to 215 00:07:35,616 --> 00:07:37,216 to to these kind of conversations and 216 00:07:37,216 --> 00:07:37,983 and be given 217 00:07:37,983 --> 00:07:40,266 given that kind of direct permission to open up 218 00:07:40,266 --> 00:07:43,466 but then also I do think we need a sense that and 219 00:07:43,466 --> 00:07:46,933 and this is what I could offer to these guys um 220 00:07:46,933 --> 00:07:49,333 like you said that there's a fear of being judged um 221 00:07:49,333 --> 00:07:50,733 and and what I could offer to 222 00:07:50,733 --> 00:07:52,966 to these guys who I write about in this book is like 223 00:07:53,333 --> 00:07:55,016 I'm I really wanna know 224 00:07:55,016 --> 00:07:57,016 I'm gonna ask you these very direct questions 225 00:07:57,016 --> 00:07:58,183 I wanna know the answers 226 00:07:58,183 --> 00:08:01,333 and they would show me a little bit 227 00:08:01,333 --> 00:08:02,333 and I don't judge them 228 00:08:02,333 --> 00:08:03,583 then they show me a little bit more 229 00:08:03,583 --> 00:08:04,466 and I don't judge them 230 00:08:04,466 --> 00:08:07,566 and then they show me a lot more and um 231 00:08:07,583 --> 00:08:10,300 and I I do think that there is often this fear that 232 00:08:10,300 --> 00:08:13,083 if anyone really sees me uh 233 00:08:13,583 --> 00:08:14,583 they will think less of me 234 00:08:14,583 --> 00:08:16,466 if anyone really sees me that they 235 00:08:16,466 --> 00:08:19,066 they will judge me if it is another 236 00:08:19,066 --> 00:08:20,583 another man they might 237 00:08:20,583 --> 00:08:24,116 you know find me to be weak or lacking in some way um 238 00:08:24,133 --> 00:08:26,500 if it is if it is a woman they 239 00:08:26,500 --> 00:08:28,266 there might be parts of my experience 240 00:08:28,266 --> 00:08:29,466 that they can't fully relate to 241 00:08:29,466 --> 00:08:32,766 or understand that they find to be um 242 00:08:33,466 --> 00:08:35,783 you know either weak or lacking similarly or 243 00:08:35,783 --> 00:08:37,383 or just bad um 244 00:08:37,383 --> 00:08:38,066 you know like that 245 00:08:38,066 --> 00:08:39,466 like some some part of me is 246 00:08:39,466 --> 00:08:42,133 is is not good um and 247 00:08:42,133 --> 00:08:43,416 and I I think that's a fear that 248 00:08:43,416 --> 00:08:45,900 that we all have none of us want to be seen by 249 00:08:45,900 --> 00:08:48,133 especially by people that we care about um 250 00:08:48,133 --> 00:08:49,333 as any of those things 251 00:08:49,333 --> 00:08:52,683 and so we need to be able to feel like um 252 00:08:53,266 --> 00:08:54,266 you know the person just really 253 00:08:54,266 --> 00:08:55,533 really wants to know and 254 00:08:55,533 --> 00:08:58,433 and is going to take what we say 255 00:08:58,466 --> 00:08:59,216 and kind of 256 00:08:59,216 --> 00:09:02,066 integrate it into the way that they view us that 257 00:09:02,066 --> 00:09:03,016 that is already kind of 258 00:09:03,016 --> 00:09:04,733 wanting the best for us and caring for us and 259 00:09:04,733 --> 00:09:05,016 not 260 00:09:05,016 --> 00:09:08,083 kind of change the way they view us in a way that is um 261 00:09:08,333 --> 00:09:10,433 you know that feels harmful and hurtful yeah 262 00:09:10,866 --> 00:09:11,466 you you 263 00:09:11,466 --> 00:09:14,833 you begin the story of of Jordan 264 00:09:15,216 --> 00:09:17,633 with this detailed 265 00:09:18,583 --> 00:09:22,100 breakdown of this obsession that he has 266 00:09:22,100 --> 00:09:22,616 while they're 267 00:09:22,616 --> 00:09:24,900 while he's driving across the country with his wife 268 00:09:24,900 --> 00:09:27,183 of the temperature of the car 269 00:09:27,183 --> 00:09:29,000 as they're driving through Yellow Joseph 270 00:09:30,333 --> 00:09:31,933 and so they're driving across country 271 00:09:31,933 --> 00:09:34,933 so that he can go to law school and 272 00:09:34,933 --> 00:09:37,483 and he's sitting there obsessing over 273 00:09:37,533 --> 00:09:39,733 the fact that the temperature of his car is 274 00:09:39,733 --> 00:09:40,916 like 30 degrees 275 00:09:41,016 --> 00:09:43,533 higher than it has been for the rest of the drive 276 00:09:43,533 --> 00:09:45,300 and he's worried that the car's gonna break down 277 00:09:45,300 --> 00:09:46,466 and then oh my gosh 278 00:09:46,466 --> 00:09:48,183 we don't have enough money to afford a new engine 279 00:09:48,183 --> 00:09:48,866 if that happens 280 00:09:48,866 --> 00:09:51,083 and what do I do when I can't let her drive 281 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:52,216 because if she drives 282 00:09:52,216 --> 00:09:53,500 then she's gonna notice this stuff 283 00:09:53,500 --> 00:09:55,116 and then she's gonna realize 284 00:09:55,333 --> 00:09:58,533 that I'm not suited to be a protector or a provider and 285 00:09:58,533 --> 00:09:59,466 and all of this stuff 286 00:09:59,466 --> 00:10:03,216 and I think that that that experience meanwhile 287 00:10:03,216 --> 00:10:05,683 his wife is enjoying um 288 00:10:06,216 --> 00:10:07,333 you know the sights and 289 00:10:07,333 --> 00:10:09,616 and wanting to stop at every single possible thing 290 00:10:09,616 --> 00:10:10,666 this is the first time they're gonna 291 00:10:10,666 --> 00:10:11,383 it's the only time 292 00:10:11,383 --> 00:10:13,016 maybe they're gonna drive all the way across country 293 00:10:13,016 --> 00:10:14,733 and she's really enjoying the trip 294 00:10:14,733 --> 00:10:16,566 but he can't be present 295 00:10:17,183 --> 00:10:19,366 because he doesn't feel like he's 296 00:10:19,500 --> 00:10:21,333 a successful protector or provider 297 00:10:21,333 --> 00:10:23,900 and that little story that vignette 298 00:10:23,900 --> 00:10:24,933 which is the the 299 00:10:24,933 --> 00:10:26,183 how we get introduced to Jordan 300 00:10:26,183 --> 00:10:28,900 really resonated with me and I mean 301 00:10:28,900 --> 00:10:30,716 this is my experience in life too 302 00:10:30,733 --> 00:10:32,866 and I think it will resonate 303 00:10:32,866 --> 00:10:35,583 I think it resonates with most men as well 304 00:10:35,583 --> 00:10:37,866 and I think that that really illustrates what 305 00:10:37,866 --> 00:10:40,933 what I think that you're trying to say about 306 00:10:40,933 --> 00:10:42,466 the central theme of the book that 307 00:10:42,466 --> 00:10:44,900 that there's this gap between 308 00:10:44,900 --> 00:10:46,866 this ideal we hold in our heads about what 309 00:10:46,866 --> 00:10:49,416 what true masculinity is whatever 310 00:10:49,416 --> 00:10:49,616 what 311 00:10:49,616 --> 00:10:52,100 whatever we've absorbed from the culture about that and 312 00:10:52,100 --> 00:10:55,800 and and then there's a gap between what I am 313 00:10:56,416 --> 00:11:00,333 and that gap can be 314 00:11:00,333 --> 00:11:02,100 can really grow into something unhealthy 315 00:11:02,100 --> 00:11:03,983 if we're not honest about it 316 00:11:03,983 --> 00:11:06,183 and if we're not willing to let people inspect it 317 00:11:06,183 --> 00:11:11,083 or we're not able to let people see it in a safe way 318 00:11:11,100 --> 00:11:13,300 it can really grow into something unhealthy and 319 00:11:13,300 --> 00:11:15,933 and that's kind of the nature of a lot what 320 00:11:15,933 --> 00:11:18,783 what what I've been calling a masculinity crisis 321 00:11:18,783 --> 00:11:19,783 but I think that's I 322 00:11:19,783 --> 00:11:23,033 I think you're getting to really the root of it there 323 00:11:24,066 --> 00:11:24,933 yeah so 324 00:11:24,933 --> 00:11:25,416 you know that 325 00:11:25,416 --> 00:11:26,816 that opening um 326 00:11:26,816 --> 00:11:28,066 with uh Joseph 327 00:11:28,066 --> 00:11:29,133 um it's Joseph 328 00:11:29,133 --> 00:11:30,016 I'm so sorry yes 329 00:11:30,016 --> 00:11:30,383 no no 330 00:11:30,383 --> 00:11:30,983 no quite alright 331 00:11:30,983 --> 00:11:31,866 quite alright um 332 00:11:31,866 --> 00:11:33,866 but I'm so glad you brought it up cause um 333 00:11:33,866 --> 00:11:34,266 you know that that's 334 00:11:34,266 --> 00:11:36,333 that's a scene that I actually haven't really 335 00:11:36,333 --> 00:11:38,100 had the chance to talk much about yet 336 00:11:38,100 --> 00:11:39,800 um and uh 337 00:11:40,300 --> 00:11:40,866 and it's a 338 00:11:40,866 --> 00:11:43,266 scene that it's one of my favorite scenes in the book 339 00:11:43,266 --> 00:11:45,183 um and like you said 340 00:11:45,183 --> 00:11:48,183 he's should be having the time of his life 341 00:11:48,183 --> 00:11:49,733 he and his wife are on this incredible 342 00:11:49,733 --> 00:11:51,500 cross country road trip they're 343 00:11:51,500 --> 00:11:53,216 they're driving through Yellowstone 344 00:11:53,216 --> 00:11:54,316 they're seeing just 345 00:11:54,366 --> 00:11:57,316 all the amazing beauty that this country has to offer 346 00:11:57,333 --> 00:11:59,183 his wife is having a wonderful time 347 00:11:59,183 --> 00:12:00,666 she's looking out the window 348 00:12:00,666 --> 00:12:01,466 she's she's like 349 00:12:01,466 --> 00:12:02,933 telling him to look at all the beautiful 350 00:12:02,933 --> 00:12:03,933 things that they're seeing 351 00:12:03,933 --> 00:12:04,933 she's um 352 00:12:04,933 --> 00:12:06,300 you know excited to see all the animals 353 00:12:06,300 --> 00:12:08,716 they're gonna see at Yellowstone National Park 354 00:12:08,783 --> 00:12:12,733 and he is spiraling inside 355 00:12:12,733 --> 00:12:14,500 because there's just a light 356 00:12:14,500 --> 00:12:16,833 rattle in the engine of his car 357 00:12:16,866 --> 00:12:18,516 and um 358 00:12:18,666 --> 00:12:19,816 as you know I think 359 00:12:19,816 --> 00:12:22,700 a lot of people have had experiences similar to this 360 00:12:22,700 --> 00:12:22,983 where like 361 00:12:22,983 --> 00:12:25,216 you know there's something going on with your car 362 00:12:25,216 --> 00:12:28,333 or maybe it's some like sound in your house that 363 00:12:28,333 --> 00:12:30,900 you know like it's not supposed to sound like that 364 00:12:30,900 --> 00:12:33,683 and you quickly go to 365 00:12:33,700 --> 00:12:35,700 what is the worst case scenario here 366 00:12:35,700 --> 00:12:37,100 and so he goes from you know 367 00:12:37,100 --> 00:12:38,333 the engine's running a little hot 368 00:12:38,333 --> 00:12:40,333 there's a little bit of a rattle um 369 00:12:40,333 --> 00:12:42,266 to this sense of like 370 00:12:42,266 --> 00:12:44,133 we're going to be stranded and alone 371 00:12:44,133 --> 00:12:47,716 and what's underneath all of this is um 372 00:12:47,816 --> 00:12:50,183 she cannot know what is happening because if she knows 373 00:12:50,183 --> 00:12:51,133 then she will know the truth 374 00:12:51,133 --> 00:12:53,266 and the truth is I am insufficient 375 00:12:53,266 --> 00:12:56,266 I cannot keep her safe she needs someone who can 376 00:12:56,266 --> 00:12:57,066 keep her safe 377 00:12:57,066 --> 00:12:59,700 and I am not the man who is up to that job 378 00:12:59,700 --> 00:13:02,466 and so that fear I think 379 00:13:02,466 --> 00:13:04,033 is something that 380 00:13:04,700 --> 00:13:07,500 so many of us experience at some point in time 381 00:13:07,500 --> 00:13:07,983 um the 382 00:13:07,983 --> 00:13:11,466 this fear that if we are really seen 383 00:13:11,466 --> 00:13:13,400 if we are really understood 384 00:13:13,583 --> 00:13:15,016 then people will know the truth 385 00:13:15,016 --> 00:13:17,533 and the truth is that we are deficient in some way 386 00:13:17,533 --> 00:13:20,316 and so he's he's going through that all the while 387 00:13:20,500 --> 00:13:21,733 um you know 388 00:13:21,733 --> 00:13:23,333 again she's having an amazing time he 389 00:13:23,333 --> 00:13:23,533 and 390 00:13:23,533 --> 00:13:26,533 he is missing out on having an amazing time with her 391 00:13:26,533 --> 00:13:29,133 because he is so fixated on his 392 00:13:29,133 --> 00:13:30,800 like image of his own you know 393 00:13:30,933 --> 00:13:33,566 uh this evidence of his own kind of inadequacy 394 00:13:34,616 --> 00:13:35,500 and um 395 00:13:35,500 --> 00:13:36,216 and then yeah like 396 00:13:36,216 --> 00:13:36,900 like you said to 397 00:13:36,900 --> 00:13:38,766 to the point of kind of this 398 00:13:39,100 --> 00:13:39,583 you know the 399 00:13:39,583 --> 00:13:42,933 the the book does not try to convince you of many ideas 400 00:13:42,933 --> 00:13:46,133 it does not try to kind of um 401 00:13:46,133 --> 00:13:48,100 hit you over the head with kind of a 402 00:13:48,100 --> 00:13:49,933 a grand argument about kind of 403 00:13:49,933 --> 00:13:51,383 the state of masculinity in this country 404 00:13:51,383 --> 00:13:53,333 I'm much more interested in just like 405 00:13:53,333 --> 00:13:55,466 really intimately telling these four stories 406 00:13:55,466 --> 00:13:57,216 and letting the reader come away with 407 00:13:57,216 --> 00:13:58,800 whatever it is that they come away with 408 00:13:58,983 --> 00:14:01,366 but the one kind of 409 00:14:01,733 --> 00:14:04,016 idea that does really link these four 410 00:14:04,016 --> 00:14:06,533 and that I do think we all experience is 411 00:14:06,533 --> 00:14:09,333 is the sense of from the time we are so young 412 00:14:09,333 --> 00:14:12,266 we are inheriting an idea of what 413 00:14:12,266 --> 00:14:14,933 it means to be a man and what kind of 414 00:14:14,933 --> 00:14:18,583 an ideal version of a man is supposed to look like 415 00:14:18,583 --> 00:14:21,200 and at some point along the way 416 00:14:21,416 --> 00:14:25,016 we inevitably fail to live up to that 417 00:14:25,016 --> 00:14:27,383 um you can be the five year old on the playground 418 00:14:27,383 --> 00:14:30,066 who's getting picked on and who immediately knows 419 00:14:30,066 --> 00:14:31,683 I'm not like the other boys 420 00:14:31,733 --> 00:14:32,300 um and 421 00:14:32,300 --> 00:14:34,616 and it has that lesson ingrained in you for 422 00:14:34,616 --> 00:14:36,166 for such a long young age 423 00:14:36,216 --> 00:14:39,216 or you can be someone who typifies every single ideal 424 00:14:39,216 --> 00:14:40,466 who um 425 00:14:40,466 --> 00:14:42,533 you know is the star athlete who is rich 426 00:14:42,533 --> 00:14:44,783 who is successful who um is 427 00:14:44,783 --> 00:14:46,216 is attractive who 428 00:14:46,216 --> 00:14:47,166 who has everything 429 00:14:47,300 --> 00:14:49,400 but inevitably at some point in your life 430 00:14:49,416 --> 00:14:51,266 your circumstances are going to shift 431 00:14:51,266 --> 00:14:53,383 in a way where you are no longer 432 00:14:53,383 --> 00:14:54,666 kind of living up to that 433 00:14:54,666 --> 00:14:54,933 or 434 00:14:54,933 --> 00:14:57,616 you just realize that you've been chasing the standard 435 00:14:57,616 --> 00:14:59,300 and the standard only gets higher and higher 436 00:14:59,300 --> 00:15:00,583 and higher the higher you go 437 00:15:00,583 --> 00:15:02,300 and you can never quite reach it 438 00:15:02,300 --> 00:15:04,733 and so ultimately I think 439 00:15:04,733 --> 00:15:06,816 what kind of defines our relationship to masculinity 440 00:15:06,816 --> 00:15:10,333 is how we kind of navigate that failure 441 00:15:10,333 --> 00:15:12,700 I I think that there's a lot of messaging right now 442 00:15:12,700 --> 00:15:15,200 that tells young men um 443 00:15:15,900 --> 00:15:17,416 just if you just work harder 444 00:15:17,416 --> 00:15:19,383 if you just keep pressing forward 445 00:15:19,383 --> 00:15:20,933 if you just work on your body 446 00:15:20,933 --> 00:15:22,333 if you just work on your career 447 00:15:22,333 --> 00:15:24,200 if you just work on your charisma 448 00:15:24,383 --> 00:15:26,300 then you will bridge that gap 449 00:15:26,300 --> 00:15:29,066 and your deficiencies will 450 00:15:29,066 --> 00:15:30,233 will be gone and you know 451 00:15:30,666 --> 00:15:32,466 I I think working on yourself in those ways is 452 00:15:32,466 --> 00:15:33,416 is wonderful you know 453 00:15:33,416 --> 00:15:34,733 I I try to do that all the time but I 454 00:15:35,216 --> 00:15:39,483 I do think that seeing that as kind of a path to 455 00:15:39,616 --> 00:15:41,700 you know it's a path to like 456 00:15:41,700 --> 00:15:43,533 trying to bridge something that cannot 457 00:15:43,533 --> 00:15:44,866 really ever be bridged 458 00:15:44,866 --> 00:15:47,700 because that standard is always gonna be out of reach 459 00:15:47,700 --> 00:15:50,216 like anorexia exactly yes 460 00:15:50,216 --> 00:15:53,600 100% I haven't heard that comparison but um 461 00:15:54,100 --> 00:15:55,616 that makes so much sense and 462 00:15:55,616 --> 00:15:56,416 and the 463 00:15:57,183 --> 00:15:57,666 both kind of 464 00:15:57,666 --> 00:15:59,100 the ideas that fuel anorexia 465 00:15:59,100 --> 00:16:00,383 and the ideals that fuel 466 00:16:00,383 --> 00:16:02,600 a lot of what we're talking about um 467 00:16:02,666 --> 00:16:04,900 are just so prevalent online and and 468 00:16:04,900 --> 00:16:07,316 and so easy for young people to access 469 00:16:07,466 --> 00:16:09,266 and it can really distort 470 00:16:09,266 --> 00:16:11,183 kind of your sense of yourself um 471 00:16:11,183 --> 00:16:12,216 basically with with this book 472 00:16:12,216 --> 00:16:13,016 what I wanted to do was 473 00:16:13,016 --> 00:16:14,700 kind of explore the ways that these guys 474 00:16:14,700 --> 00:16:16,600 who are who are so different from one another 475 00:16:16,733 --> 00:16:19,016 um try to navigate that because I 476 00:16:19,016 --> 00:16:21,200 I think it is something that we will all 477 00:16:21,283 --> 00:16:23,333 at one point or another have to 478 00:16:23,333 --> 00:16:24,866 have to navigate ourselves all 479 00:16:24,866 --> 00:16:25,700 most of us have 480 00:16:25,700 --> 00:16:28,466 at some point already had to navigate it ourselves even 481 00:16:28,466 --> 00:16:30,100 even if we haven't really been conscious of it 482 00:16:30,100 --> 00:16:31,633 it's just been something that we're 483 00:16:31,783 --> 00:16:33,366 something that we're inevitably doing 484 00:16:33,616 --> 00:16:35,016 you know you 485 00:16:35,016 --> 00:16:36,916 you have a young son yourself 486 00:16:37,266 --> 00:16:39,700 who was born while you were doing this um 487 00:16:39,700 --> 00:16:42,616 how has this experience shaped 488 00:16:42,616 --> 00:16:45,066 how you think about him 489 00:16:45,066 --> 00:16:47,533 and his relationship to masculinity 490 00:16:47,533 --> 00:16:49,866 has it changed the way you think about this stuff 491 00:16:49,866 --> 00:16:51,683 or enhanced it in any way 492 00:16:51,983 --> 00:16:54,200 yeah you know um 493 00:16:54,300 --> 00:16:56,416 so he's almost 3 years old um 494 00:16:56,416 --> 00:16:58,816 and so it's he's still 495 00:16:58,816 --> 00:17:00,533 he's still so young um 496 00:17:00,533 --> 00:17:04,633 and he's still in the very early stages of kind of 497 00:17:05,016 --> 00:17:07,616 learning some of these some of these lessons 498 00:17:07,616 --> 00:17:09,983 learning some of the ways in which he will experience 499 00:17:09,983 --> 00:17:11,600 certain pressures um 500 00:17:11,866 --> 00:17:13,716 as he as he grows older 501 00:17:14,983 --> 00:17:17,383 I will say that you know 502 00:17:17,383 --> 00:17:18,500 when he was born and again 503 00:17:18,500 --> 00:17:21,266 he was born I was about halfway through this book um 504 00:17:21,266 --> 00:17:22,700 we did not know um 505 00:17:22,700 --> 00:17:26,916 the sex until until the moment he was born and um 506 00:17:27,166 --> 00:17:28,300 you know the moment that the 507 00:17:28,300 --> 00:17:29,616 the doctor said uh 508 00:17:29,616 --> 00:17:30,783 like he's here 509 00:17:30,783 --> 00:17:32,416 I think the doctor's first words were 510 00:17:32,416 --> 00:17:34,066 he's so long uh 511 00:17:34,066 --> 00:17:36,283 cause he was very tall um 512 00:17:36,466 --> 00:17:37,583 and uh 513 00:17:37,583 --> 00:17:39,783 but hearing that word he um 514 00:17:39,783 --> 00:17:40,416 I you know 515 00:17:40,416 --> 00:17:41,933 felt this incredible like excitement 516 00:17:41,933 --> 00:17:44,383 pride but also a sense of weight 517 00:17:44,383 --> 00:17:46,983 like an immediate sense of weight um 518 00:17:46,983 --> 00:17:49,216 a weight that I can't really fully even like 519 00:17:49,216 --> 00:17:50,500 wrap my mind around or 520 00:17:50,500 --> 00:17:53,500 or put much in the way of words to just yet 521 00:17:53,500 --> 00:17:53,733 but like 522 00:17:53,733 --> 00:17:57,100 the sense of a particular kind of responsibility that 523 00:17:57,100 --> 00:17:58,783 that I would have um 524 00:17:58,783 --> 00:18:00,900 and maybe I would it would have felt the exact same if 525 00:18:00,900 --> 00:18:02,300 if if he um 526 00:18:02,300 --> 00:18:04,533 you know if she had said she's so long um at 527 00:18:04,533 --> 00:18:06,633 at that moment but um 528 00:18:06,700 --> 00:18:09,466 but I I did kind of feel that and 529 00:18:09,466 --> 00:18:10,183 and you know 530 00:18:10,183 --> 00:18:11,016 along the way it 531 00:18:11,016 --> 00:18:12,883 it has been um 532 00:18:13,733 --> 00:18:14,100 you know I 533 00:18:14,100 --> 00:18:16,483 I think what what I found myself thinking is like 534 00:18:18,383 --> 00:18:20,383 I cannot fully 535 00:18:20,383 --> 00:18:22,100 shield him from 536 00:18:22,100 --> 00:18:23,900 all of these pressures that we are talking about 537 00:18:23,900 --> 00:18:25,066 like the these 538 00:18:25,066 --> 00:18:28,416 these pressures are going to be a part of his life 539 00:18:28,416 --> 00:18:31,083 um what I can do is make 540 00:18:31,266 --> 00:18:32,866 do everything I can to make kind of 541 00:18:32,866 --> 00:18:34,300 our relationship and 542 00:18:34,300 --> 00:18:36,700 and our home a place where he feels safe to be 543 00:18:36,700 --> 00:18:38,700 whoever he is um 544 00:18:38,700 --> 00:18:42,766 and where he feels kind of invited into um 545 00:18:42,866 --> 00:18:44,800 kind of the fullest version of himself 546 00:18:45,333 --> 00:18:47,033 um but uh 547 00:18:48,183 --> 00:18:50,100 you know he will inevitably be shaped by 548 00:18:50,100 --> 00:18:51,100 by all of these kind of 549 00:18:51,100 --> 00:18:52,900 cultural expectations that we have 550 00:18:52,900 --> 00:18:55,566 he will inevitably be shaped in some ways by like 551 00:18:55,900 --> 00:18:57,133 the subconscious ways 552 00:18:57,133 --> 00:18:59,016 in which I've been impacted by all of this 553 00:18:59,016 --> 00:18:59,383 you know I'm 554 00:18:59,383 --> 00:19:02,500 I'm my own person who has tried to kind of 555 00:19:02,500 --> 00:19:05,016 navigate that gap that that we are talking about and 556 00:19:05,016 --> 00:19:05,783 and you know 557 00:19:05,783 --> 00:19:08,133 as much as I try to do it in the healthiest way I can 558 00:19:08,133 --> 00:19:11,983 I know sometimes it's not always healthy and um 559 00:19:11,983 --> 00:19:12,416 you know the 560 00:19:12,416 --> 00:19:14,416 the ways in which I wrestle with my own kind of 561 00:19:14,416 --> 00:19:15,300 insecurities my 562 00:19:15,300 --> 00:19:17,100 my own kind of um 563 00:19:17,100 --> 00:19:18,500 you know failures um 564 00:19:18,500 --> 00:19:21,483 will will inevitably impact him in some way or another 565 00:19:21,533 --> 00:19:23,183 um and so 566 00:19:23,183 --> 00:19:24,333 uh yeah 567 00:19:24,333 --> 00:19:25,500 all of that to say like 568 00:19:25,500 --> 00:19:26,616 these ideas are just kind of 569 00:19:26,616 --> 00:19:28,933 swimming in my mind all the time 570 00:19:28,933 --> 00:19:31,816 um and the only thing I know to do at this point 571 00:19:31,816 --> 00:19:32,466 and again like parenting a 572 00:19:33,616 --> 00:19:34,733 a two and a/2 year old is 573 00:19:34,733 --> 00:19:35,933 is very very different I 574 00:19:35,933 --> 00:19:37,333 I know from parenting a 575 00:19:37,333 --> 00:19:40,583 a 7 year old or a 10 year old or a 15 year old um 576 00:19:40,583 --> 00:19:42,400 but at this point it's just been about like 577 00:19:42,616 --> 00:19:44,300 wanting to make sure that he feels like 578 00:19:44,300 --> 00:19:46,183 he can be fully himself um 579 00:19:46,183 --> 00:19:46,333 with with 580 00:19:46,333 --> 00:19:48,133 with me and with us in in 581 00:19:48,133 --> 00:19:49,033 in our home 582 00:19:49,933 --> 00:19:50,983 yeah for me I 583 00:19:50,983 --> 00:19:53,500 I had that I had a similar experience to you now 584 00:19:53,500 --> 00:19:58,283 we did know the sex of our boy before he came out 585 00:19:58,333 --> 00:20:02,416 and our girl too but it 586 00:20:02,416 --> 00:20:04,133 that that weight that you're talking about 587 00:20:04,133 --> 00:20:07,083 is totally different and it's not 588 00:20:07,783 --> 00:20:09,100 it's different it's not like 589 00:20:09,100 --> 00:20:11,116 it's there for the boy and not for the girl 590 00:20:11,133 --> 00:20:13,333 it is different and for the girl it's 591 00:20:13,333 --> 00:20:17,266 it's it's more about keeping her safe and and and 592 00:20:17,266 --> 00:20:19,366 and those sorts of things for the boy 593 00:20:19,416 --> 00:20:25,366 for me it was this experience that 594 00:20:25,983 --> 00:20:27,066 and actually I mean I 595 00:20:27,066 --> 00:20:28,816 I was able to form it a little bit better 596 00:20:28,816 --> 00:20:31,400 once he got older but it's that 597 00:20:32,900 --> 00:20:37,800 masculinity is so much different now 598 00:20:37,983 --> 00:20:40,166 than it was when I was young 599 00:20:40,783 --> 00:20:43,066 my paradigm my operating system 600 00:20:43,066 --> 00:20:46,283 so to speak is not gonna work for him 601 00:20:46,816 --> 00:20:52,600 and it's my job to make sure that he has the skills 602 00:20:52,816 --> 00:20:57,183 and capabilities to make his way in the world 603 00:20:57,183 --> 00:21:00,233 and be an excellent man and 604 00:21:01,866 --> 00:21:03,816 if even if that's what I am 605 00:21:03,816 --> 00:21:05,816 what got me to where I am 606 00:21:05,816 --> 00:21:08,100 isn't gonna get him where he needs to be 607 00:21:08,100 --> 00:21:10,016 and I need to be more intentional about it 608 00:21:10,016 --> 00:21:11,100 I need to figure it out 609 00:21:11,100 --> 00:21:13,400 and I don't know the answer right now 610 00:21:13,983 --> 00:21:16,016 and the culture isn't gonna help me all 611 00:21:16,016 --> 00:21:18,500 all it it used to be the case that 612 00:21:18,500 --> 00:21:22,333 that we had rights of passage and we had institutions 613 00:21:22,333 --> 00:21:24,133 we would be going to church and 614 00:21:24,133 --> 00:21:25,733 you know that would help in some way 615 00:21:25,733 --> 00:21:28,200 it would also hurt in a lot of ways and 616 00:21:28,316 --> 00:21:31,216 and that means there's a there's an opportunity there 617 00:21:31,216 --> 00:21:32,133 and there's a problem there 618 00:21:32,133 --> 00:21:34,916 the problem is that that those things are gone 619 00:21:35,266 --> 00:21:37,900 the opportunity is we get to remake them 620 00:21:37,900 --> 00:21:40,983 in the form that we want them to be 621 00:21:40,983 --> 00:21:42,233 and that's great 622 00:21:42,766 --> 00:21:44,216 but it means you have to do it 623 00:21:44,216 --> 00:21:46,416 or else you're just getting nothing and 624 00:21:46,416 --> 00:21:48,116 and that was 625 00:21:48,533 --> 00:21:52,700 that is how I vocalized the weight that you described 626 00:21:52,700 --> 00:21:54,466 that I felt when my son was born 627 00:21:54,466 --> 00:21:56,266 that's what I felt and I 628 00:21:56,266 --> 00:21:58,733 I wasn't able to put words to it for years 629 00:21:58,733 --> 00:21:59,383 and years and years 630 00:21:59,383 --> 00:22:01,166 but that's how I put words to it now 631 00:22:01,900 --> 00:22:02,500 yeah that 632 00:22:02,500 --> 00:22:05,216 that's such a great um yeah 633 00:22:05,216 --> 00:22:05,383 I I 634 00:22:05,383 --> 00:22:06,933 I I really appreciate you 635 00:22:06,933 --> 00:22:08,266 you sharing all of that cause like I 636 00:22:08,266 --> 00:22:10,716 I think that um 637 00:22:12,016 --> 00:22:12,816 like you said I 638 00:22:12,816 --> 00:22:14,100 I think you know what 639 00:22:14,100 --> 00:22:15,816 one of the things that comes up a lot in 640 00:22:15,816 --> 00:22:18,183 in this book is how men respond to certain structures 641 00:22:18,183 --> 00:22:19,783 how we respond to like 642 00:22:19,783 --> 00:22:21,783 clear sets of expectations and 643 00:22:21,783 --> 00:22:24,483 and being invited into something that um 644 00:22:24,700 --> 00:22:25,066 you know where 645 00:22:25,066 --> 00:22:26,733 where there's kind of a clear purpose and we 646 00:22:26,733 --> 00:22:28,183 we understand what it is 647 00:22:28,183 --> 00:22:31,766 we understand why we're doing it and um 648 00:22:32,866 --> 00:22:33,183 you know 649 00:22:33,183 --> 00:22:35,133 what you mentioned about kind of rites of passage or 650 00:22:35,133 --> 00:22:38,083 like structures that kind of give uh 651 00:22:38,783 --> 00:22:39,933 you know serve as like 652 00:22:39,933 --> 00:22:41,333 kind of entry points into 653 00:22:41,333 --> 00:22:43,183 into a next phase of life that 654 00:22:43,183 --> 00:22:44,783 that serve as like kind of um 655 00:22:44,783 --> 00:22:46,733 helping you make that transition in 656 00:22:46,733 --> 00:22:48,666 in adolescence from being someone who 657 00:22:48,666 --> 00:22:49,900 who is um 658 00:22:49,900 --> 00:22:51,333 you've seen largely as a boy into 659 00:22:51,333 --> 00:22:52,666 to being someone who who is 660 00:22:52,666 --> 00:22:55,383 who's growing into a man um I 661 00:22:55,383 --> 00:22:58,133 I think that like uh you're 662 00:22:58,133 --> 00:22:58,700 you're right 663 00:22:58,700 --> 00:23:01,300 that our culture is kind of lacking a lot of those 664 00:23:01,300 --> 00:23:01,666 um I 665 00:23:01,666 --> 00:23:03,533 I'm not entirely sure how to 666 00:23:03,533 --> 00:23:04,783 how to kind of reconstitute some 667 00:23:04,783 --> 00:23:05,466 some of them but I 668 00:23:05,466 --> 00:23:08,866 I do think that they I do think that they matter 669 00:23:08,866 --> 00:23:12,533 cause I I think especially that phase of life 670 00:23:12,533 --> 00:23:13,383 I mean um 671 00:23:13,383 --> 00:23:15,433 at adolescence I I try to 672 00:23:16,516 --> 00:23:17,583 you know I think it can be hard 673 00:23:17,583 --> 00:23:18,866 sometimes for grown men 674 00:23:18,866 --> 00:23:21,533 to remember what it is like to be a teenage boy 675 00:23:21,533 --> 00:23:23,466 um and I 676 00:23:23,466 --> 00:23:24,783 I have hard 677 00:23:24,783 --> 00:23:28,033 a hard time kind of remembering what it was like 678 00:23:28,066 --> 00:23:28,733 um and I 679 00:23:28,733 --> 00:23:31,066 I found myself thinking um 680 00:23:31,066 --> 00:23:33,516 trying to really sink back into 681 00:23:33,616 --> 00:23:35,016 into that experience and 682 00:23:35,016 --> 00:23:36,583 and I think like you know 683 00:23:36,583 --> 00:23:38,916 when I was a teenager um 684 00:23:39,666 --> 00:23:40,033 you know I'm 685 00:23:40,033 --> 00:23:41,733 I'm very I'm really tall 686 00:23:41,733 --> 00:23:43,066 I'm I'm 6 5 um 687 00:23:43,066 --> 00:23:45,016 so I'm me too like always OK OK 688 00:23:45,016 --> 00:23:45,733 yeah so like 689 00:23:45,733 --> 00:23:48,216 it's a particular kind of experience when you're 690 00:23:48,216 --> 00:23:50,066 when you are in a body like that 691 00:23:50,066 --> 00:23:52,133 that's kind of looming over everyone else 692 00:23:52,133 --> 00:23:54,100 and I was clumsy as a result yeah 693 00:23:54,100 --> 00:23:55,900 having grown so fast and yeah 694 00:23:55,900 --> 00:23:56,816 yeah my 695 00:23:56,816 --> 00:23:58,700 my boy experiences the same thing 696 00:23:58,700 --> 00:24:00,733 and it's and it's difficult because 697 00:24:00,733 --> 00:24:02,766 and you're gonna experience the same thing 698 00:24:03,183 --> 00:24:05,033 they always think he's older than he is 699 00:24:05,266 --> 00:24:07,933 and so they expect him to act differently 700 00:24:07,933 --> 00:24:08,183 they're like 701 00:24:08,183 --> 00:24:11,966 why is your 9 year old acting like a 6 year old 702 00:24:12,583 --> 00:24:12,833 yeah 703 00:24:13,016 --> 00:24:14,916 6:06 yeah 704 00:24:15,133 --> 00:24:15,900 it's yeah my 705 00:24:15,900 --> 00:24:18,783 my son physically he's so much like me um 706 00:24:18,783 --> 00:24:21,000 he's very very tall uh 707 00:24:21,183 --> 00:24:22,733 but just kind of clumsy like 708 00:24:22,733 --> 00:24:24,400 you know it took him like 709 00:24:24,466 --> 00:24:24,933 I think 710 00:24:24,933 --> 00:24:26,816 babies are supposed to start rolling over when they're 711 00:24:26,816 --> 00:24:27,533 like three months 712 00:24:27,533 --> 00:24:30,566 he was he was like nine months before he rolled over uh 713 00:24:31,066 --> 00:24:32,300 like he never crawled 714 00:24:32,300 --> 00:24:34,700 there's so much body to learn to maneuver like 715 00:24:34,700 --> 00:24:34,983 like you know 716 00:24:34,983 --> 00:24:38,666 it's like driving a semi truck versus a Miata exactly 717 00:24:38,666 --> 00:24:40,200 exactly um 718 00:24:40,216 --> 00:24:40,616 but you know 719 00:24:40,616 --> 00:24:41,700 back back to kind of the 720 00:24:41,700 --> 00:24:42,800 the point of like in adolescence 721 00:24:43,816 --> 00:24:45,616 like what what I remember is like 722 00:24:45,616 --> 00:24:52,066 you are growing into a feeling of like you 723 00:24:52,066 --> 00:24:53,100 you all of a sudden there's like 724 00:24:53,100 --> 00:24:54,533 there's just a power there is a 725 00:24:54,533 --> 00:24:57,466 a power that comes with being in uh 726 00:24:57,466 --> 00:25:00,416 a male body particularly a certain kind of male body 727 00:25:00,416 --> 00:25:02,916 what one that's kind of larger than other people yeah 728 00:25:03,300 --> 00:25:05,333 there's just an intrinsic power that comes with that 729 00:25:05,333 --> 00:25:08,100 and like you are growing into that power very 730 00:25:08,100 --> 00:25:10,500 very quickly when you are uh 13 731 00:25:10,500 --> 00:25:11,100 14 15 732 00:25:11,100 --> 00:25:12,433 16 17 years old 733 00:25:12,500 --> 00:25:15,966 um and it can feel intoxicating 734 00:25:16,183 --> 00:25:18,133 um it can feel really 735 00:25:18,133 --> 00:25:19,466 really thrilling um 736 00:25:19,466 --> 00:25:20,300 to all of a sudden 737 00:25:20,300 --> 00:25:23,216 be bigger than most of the people who are around you 738 00:25:23,216 --> 00:25:24,900 and and everything that kind of comes with that 739 00:25:24,900 --> 00:25:26,683 the expectations that come with that 740 00:25:26,700 --> 00:25:28,816 um but it can also feel terrifying 741 00:25:28,816 --> 00:25:30,500 like terrifying um 742 00:25:30,500 --> 00:25:33,466 you know and I remember like being around 743 00:25:33,466 --> 00:25:35,533 you know just around a lot of I 744 00:25:35,533 --> 00:25:39,816 I knew a lot of boys who did bad stuff 745 00:25:39,816 --> 00:25:41,466 who inflicted real harm on 746 00:25:41,466 --> 00:25:43,100 on other people um 747 00:25:43,100 --> 00:25:45,700 and sometimes they were boys who I was really close to 748 00:25:45,700 --> 00:25:46,966 and who um 749 00:25:47,183 --> 00:25:47,583 you know I 750 00:25:47,583 --> 00:25:49,983 I saw a lot of like goodness and in a lot of other ways 751 00:25:49,983 --> 00:25:51,383 but like um 752 00:25:51,383 --> 00:25:52,816 there's something about that that 753 00:25:52,816 --> 00:25:54,916 that I think really kind of uh 754 00:25:56,133 --> 00:25:56,500 you there 755 00:25:56,500 --> 00:25:58,266 there's just so much swimming in my head 756 00:25:58,266 --> 00:25:59,533 at that period of time where like 757 00:25:59,533 --> 00:26:01,700 you're seeing the destructive 758 00:26:01,700 --> 00:26:04,166 power that kind of um 759 00:26:04,866 --> 00:26:05,983 you know that the people who 760 00:26:05,983 --> 00:26:08,533 who have bodies like yours can 761 00:26:08,533 --> 00:26:09,333 can uh 762 00:26:09,466 --> 00:26:10,183 can have you're 763 00:26:10,183 --> 00:26:11,583 and you're also kind of 764 00:26:11,583 --> 00:26:14,100 intoxicated by the ways in which you suddenly have 765 00:26:14,100 --> 00:26:17,000 like access to so much that um 766 00:26:17,016 --> 00:26:17,133 that 767 00:26:17,133 --> 00:26:19,300 that you didn't have access to when you were younger 768 00:26:19,300 --> 00:26:21,316 and so I I do think that like 769 00:26:22,500 --> 00:26:28,816 whatever we can do to find ways to help teenage boys to 770 00:26:28,816 --> 00:26:29,766 kind of uh 771 00:26:30,383 --> 00:26:31,983 navigate that that time of life 772 00:26:31,983 --> 00:26:32,133 like 773 00:26:32,133 --> 00:26:35,383 understand all that they're going to be going through 774 00:26:35,383 --> 00:26:35,933 I mean there 775 00:26:35,933 --> 00:26:38,016 you know that parallels to um 776 00:26:38,016 --> 00:26:39,533 adolescent girls that there's obviously 777 00:26:39,533 --> 00:26:42,933 like a very clear right of passage that 778 00:26:42,933 --> 00:26:43,933 that happens for them that 779 00:26:43,933 --> 00:26:45,783 that's kind of a distinction between kind of 780 00:26:45,783 --> 00:26:46,466 a girlhood yeah 781 00:26:46,466 --> 00:26:47,666 it's a physical thing yeah yes 782 00:26:47,666 --> 00:26:49,066 yes and I 783 00:26:49,066 --> 00:26:49,900 I I spoke 784 00:26:49,900 --> 00:26:50,983 when working on this book I 785 00:26:50,983 --> 00:26:54,100 I talked to a a woman journalist friend who um 786 00:26:54,100 --> 00:26:55,733 you know talked about that specifically and was like I 787 00:26:55,733 --> 00:26:58,516 I I feel like um 788 00:26:58,533 --> 00:27:00,266 you know girls still kind of like just 789 00:27:00,266 --> 00:27:00,416 that 790 00:27:00,416 --> 00:27:02,583 there's just this physical change of having a period 791 00:27:02,583 --> 00:27:03,833 that is um 792 00:27:04,266 --> 00:27:05,066 uh 793 00:27:05,316 --> 00:27:08,383 gives them kind of a a passageway into 794 00:27:08,383 --> 00:27:10,983 into womanhood that's that boys are 795 00:27:10,983 --> 00:27:12,433 are kind of lacking um 796 00:27:12,533 --> 00:27:13,866 and so I but I 797 00:27:13,866 --> 00:27:15,266 I think that that stuff is important 798 00:27:15,266 --> 00:27:19,216 finding ways to kind of help boys to um 799 00:27:19,216 --> 00:27:22,066 navigate a time in your life that can feel so chaotic 800 00:27:22,066 --> 00:27:22,500 um and 801 00:27:22,500 --> 00:27:25,283 and where you can feel so unmoored I 802 00:27:25,933 --> 00:27:27,216 it's helpful I don't know what the answer is 803 00:27:27,216 --> 00:27:27,616 but I I 804 00:27:27,616 --> 00:27:28,216 I love that 805 00:27:28,216 --> 00:27:29,616 it's something that you're thinking a lot about 806 00:27:29,616 --> 00:27:32,133 I'll tell you something that helps and 807 00:27:32,133 --> 00:27:33,500 and one of the things that 808 00:27:33,500 --> 00:27:36,866 that I've noticed about my boy's experience is 809 00:27:36,866 --> 00:27:39,200 I can watch him go through things 810 00:27:39,483 --> 00:27:43,600 and that will uncover memories for me that I didn't 811 00:27:43,783 --> 00:27:44,900 wouldn't have been able to produce 812 00:27:44,900 --> 00:27:47,716 if I hadn't been prompted by seeing him 813 00:27:47,933 --> 00:27:49,833 struggle with the same stuff 814 00:27:50,133 --> 00:27:51,666 and when I see that I 815 00:27:51,666 --> 00:27:54,183 I remember back when I struggled with the same stuff 816 00:27:54,183 --> 00:27:55,383 and how I thought about it 817 00:27:55,383 --> 00:27:56,900 and how I wished I thought about it 818 00:27:56,900 --> 00:27:58,933 and all of that stuff and so 819 00:27:58,933 --> 00:28:00,466 all of that's to say 820 00:28:00,583 --> 00:28:03,183 that this is one of the reasons that 821 00:28:03,183 --> 00:28:05,500 male role models are so important 822 00:28:05,500 --> 00:28:06,183 in the in 823 00:28:06,183 --> 00:28:07,266 in the in 824 00:28:07,266 --> 00:28:09,016 in the life of young boys and 825 00:28:09,016 --> 00:28:10,783 and especially adolescent boys 826 00:28:10,783 --> 00:28:12,216 because that is such a difficult 827 00:28:12,216 --> 00:28:14,500 unbelievably hard time of life it 828 00:28:14,500 --> 00:28:15,866 it is it's 829 00:28:15,866 --> 00:28:17,583 for all the reasons that you talked about 830 00:28:17,583 --> 00:28:20,333 and he really needs someone there 831 00:28:20,333 --> 00:28:21,816 who's been through that maybe 832 00:28:21,816 --> 00:28:23,500 or even more than other people 833 00:28:23,500 --> 00:28:25,400 and who can you know 834 00:28:25,700 --> 00:28:26,183 say yeah 835 00:28:26,183 --> 00:28:27,383 this is normal and it's okay 836 00:28:27,383 --> 00:28:30,333 and just as just as a a 837 00:28:30,333 --> 00:28:32,900 a girl having her first period 838 00:28:32,900 --> 00:28:35,900 needs a woman to help her learn how to deal with that 839 00:28:35,900 --> 00:28:38,633 just in a physical way I don't think anybody 840 00:28:39,066 --> 00:28:41,066 like I I 841 00:28:41,066 --> 00:28:41,666 don't think anybody 842 00:28:41,666 --> 00:28:43,616 would expect a father to come and do that or 843 00:28:43,616 --> 00:28:46,000 or or think that a father could do that adequately 844 00:28:46,500 --> 00:28:50,683 and yet we don't really necessarily culturally put the 845 00:28:50,983 --> 00:28:51,733 put that on us 846 00:28:51,733 --> 00:28:53,900 on men to make sure that they're there for the 847 00:28:53,900 --> 00:28:57,216 for the boys in the same in the same way and 848 00:28:57,216 --> 00:28:58,950 but it really does help like 849 00:28:58,950 --> 00:29:02,066 you kind of get access to hidden knowledge 850 00:29:02,066 --> 00:29:03,816 or experiences that you don't remember 851 00:29:03,816 --> 00:29:05,333 you had um 852 00:29:05,333 --> 00:29:07,583 as your boy experiences those things 853 00:29:07,583 --> 00:29:10,766 you kind of get to experience them through him 854 00:29:11,500 --> 00:29:13,700 yeah trip yeah 855 00:29:13,700 --> 00:29:14,383 I I think 856 00:29:14,383 --> 00:29:15,133 you know to your point there 857 00:29:15,133 --> 00:29:16,683 there's just something I mean 858 00:29:17,016 --> 00:29:19,300 being able to empathize with another person is just 859 00:29:19,300 --> 00:29:20,666 enormously helpful I mean 860 00:29:20,666 --> 00:29:22,533 like having someone who can see and understand 861 00:29:22,533 --> 00:29:24,300 your experience is enormously helpful 862 00:29:24,300 --> 00:29:27,800 and it is just a fact that uh 863 00:29:27,816 --> 00:29:31,983 certain experiences are are kind of uh 864 00:29:31,983 --> 00:29:34,616 unique to your sex or your gender and 865 00:29:34,616 --> 00:29:37,066 and certain experiences like 866 00:29:37,066 --> 00:29:39,500 when you can have some guidance 867 00:29:39,500 --> 00:29:41,866 from someone who knows what that is like 868 00:29:41,866 --> 00:29:44,533 um there's going to be something about that 869 00:29:44,533 --> 00:29:46,616 that that is enormously helpful to you 870 00:29:46,616 --> 00:29:47,833 um and uh 871 00:29:48,066 --> 00:29:48,383 you know that 872 00:29:48,383 --> 00:29:50,600 that's not to say that um 873 00:29:51,300 --> 00:29:52,783 men can't find ways to be 874 00:29:52,783 --> 00:29:54,416 to be there for um 875 00:29:54,416 --> 00:29:55,783 you know their daughters who 876 00:29:55,783 --> 00:29:57,100 who are going through kind of 877 00:29:57,100 --> 00:29:58,983 physical and other changes that um 878 00:29:58,983 --> 00:30:00,100 that those men haven't experienced or 879 00:30:00,100 --> 00:30:01,416 or that women can't do the same with 880 00:30:01,416 --> 00:30:02,900 with their sons or uh 881 00:30:02,900 --> 00:30:03,583 you know other 882 00:30:03,583 --> 00:30:05,383 other children in in their lives um 883 00:30:05,383 --> 00:30:08,933 but it it is just simply like there 884 00:30:08,933 --> 00:30:11,466 there will be things that uh 885 00:30:11,466 --> 00:30:11,733 you know I 886 00:30:11,733 --> 00:30:14,033 I know that I experience things that like 887 00:30:14,266 --> 00:30:16,266 I wanted to talk to my dad about because I 888 00:30:16,266 --> 00:30:17,300 I knew that like 889 00:30:17,300 --> 00:30:19,133 he was much more likely to have understood 890 00:30:19,133 --> 00:30:20,316 that experience than 891 00:30:20,333 --> 00:30:22,133 than my mom and and and 892 00:30:22,133 --> 00:30:23,683 and I I think that 893 00:30:23,700 --> 00:30:24,500 you know it 894 00:30:24,500 --> 00:30:25,900 the onus has to be on 895 00:30:25,900 --> 00:30:29,066 on us as fathers to make sure that we are there in 896 00:30:29,066 --> 00:30:29,616 in that way 897 00:30:29,616 --> 00:30:31,466 to make sure that we are looking for those moments 898 00:30:33,100 --> 00:30:33,666 where there are 899 00:30:33,666 --> 00:30:34,700 those points of connection 900 00:30:34,700 --> 00:30:37,116 where we have been through that thing that's uh 901 00:30:37,383 --> 00:30:37,900 you know that 902 00:30:37,900 --> 00:30:38,466 that a a 903 00:30:38,466 --> 00:30:39,583 a boy is going through and 904 00:30:39,583 --> 00:30:40,633 and we can kind of 905 00:30:40,633 --> 00:30:41,533 you know find ways to 906 00:30:41,533 --> 00:30:43,066 to really uh 907 00:30:43,066 --> 00:30:44,216 signal that we're we're 908 00:30:44,216 --> 00:30:46,300 we're there and able to talk about it and understand 909 00:30:46,300 --> 00:30:47,633 yeah yeah 910 00:30:47,983 --> 00:30:50,133 what did you learn in in this 911 00:30:50,133 --> 00:30:51,383 in the experience of writing this book 912 00:30:51,383 --> 00:30:52,966 what did you learn about the role 913 00:30:53,016 --> 00:30:55,833 of these men's own parents 914 00:30:56,183 --> 00:30:58,166 in crafting who they became 915 00:30:58,183 --> 00:30:58,466 it like 916 00:30:58,466 --> 00:31:00,533 in making their struggles harder or easier 917 00:31:00,533 --> 00:31:02,583 or successes greater or lesser 918 00:31:02,583 --> 00:31:06,466 or how did how did their parents impact that yeah 919 00:31:06,466 --> 00:31:06,983 um you know 920 00:31:06,983 --> 00:31:11,066 their fathers are are so different from one another um 921 00:31:11,066 --> 00:31:12,216 you know one Joseph 922 00:31:12,216 --> 00:31:14,716 who we talked about earlier um 923 00:31:14,900 --> 00:31:16,616 the the one who's having the bit 924 00:31:16,616 --> 00:31:18,933 of a breakdown on the beautiful cross country road trip 925 00:31:18,933 --> 00:31:21,166 his father is um 926 00:31:22,183 --> 00:31:23,733 really abusive to Joseph's mother 927 00:31:23,733 --> 00:31:24,616 um never 928 00:31:24,616 --> 00:31:26,166 never abusive to Joseph himself 929 00:31:26,383 --> 00:31:28,733 but he grows up in a home where he watches 930 00:31:28,733 --> 00:31:32,500 he watches violence unfolding often and um 931 00:31:32,500 --> 00:31:32,816 you know it 932 00:31:32,816 --> 00:31:34,766 it fills him with a you know 933 00:31:34,883 --> 00:31:36,866 pretty significant kind of loathing for 934 00:31:36,866 --> 00:31:38,933 for his father over time and he 935 00:31:38,933 --> 00:31:40,016 yeah um he 936 00:31:40,016 --> 00:31:42,083 he learns a lot really 937 00:31:43,500 --> 00:31:45,216 he he's a bit adrift at times 938 00:31:45,216 --> 00:31:47,583 because he does not have a real 939 00:31:47,583 --> 00:31:50,233 strong model for who he wants to be himself 940 00:31:50,500 --> 00:31:50,900 um he 941 00:31:50,900 --> 00:31:52,216 and he's kind of seeking that in 942 00:31:52,216 --> 00:31:53,866 in other men in his life as he's in 943 00:31:53,866 --> 00:31:56,016 in early adulthood because um 944 00:31:56,016 --> 00:31:57,666 his father failed his mother in such 945 00:31:57,666 --> 00:31:59,333 such critical ways um 946 00:31:59,333 --> 00:32:00,300 you know another one 947 00:32:00,300 --> 00:32:01,516 um Gideon 948 00:32:01,533 --> 00:32:03,466 who is kind of a a uh 949 00:32:03,466 --> 00:32:05,183 typifies every masculine ideal 950 00:32:05,183 --> 00:32:08,133 like the baseball star West Point graduate tall 951 00:32:08,133 --> 00:32:09,433 smart handsome everything 952 00:32:09,816 --> 00:32:11,083 he um 953 00:32:11,733 --> 00:32:13,500 has a loving relationship to his father 954 00:32:13,500 --> 00:32:15,466 but also had the sense that he was like 955 00:32:15,466 --> 00:32:17,333 kind of like a trophy in his family 956 00:32:17,333 --> 00:32:18,133 that he was 957 00:32:18,133 --> 00:32:19,866 because he was so good at all of these things 958 00:32:19,866 --> 00:32:21,983 because he was so gifted um 959 00:32:21,983 --> 00:32:23,666 he kind of internalized that 960 00:32:23,666 --> 00:32:26,616 like this is how I have worth in the world is by being 961 00:32:26,616 --> 00:32:28,483 excelling at all of these things 962 00:32:28,533 --> 00:32:32,133 um and I think he still 963 00:32:32,133 --> 00:32:32,616 to this day 964 00:32:32,616 --> 00:32:35,100 would say that his parents loved him tremendously 965 00:32:35,100 --> 00:32:37,800 and were great in many ways but um 966 00:32:38,100 --> 00:32:39,816 it was hard for him to kind of trust 967 00:32:39,816 --> 00:32:42,916 kind of his intrinsic I guess worth um 968 00:32:42,933 --> 00:32:44,216 and in part for kind of 969 00:32:44,216 --> 00:32:47,633 the ways that he was kind of reinforced as a kid um 970 00:32:47,816 --> 00:32:50,666 you know another Ryan is 971 00:32:50,666 --> 00:32:51,733 is someone who is 972 00:32:51,733 --> 00:32:54,733 his father is kind of your stereotypical like tough 973 00:32:54,733 --> 00:32:57,033 like fighter like someone who's 974 00:32:57,300 --> 00:32:59,200 he'd been a boxer um 975 00:32:59,300 --> 00:33:03,716 and Ryan gets picked on as a kid and his dad is um 976 00:33:04,183 --> 00:33:06,133 you immediately tries to teach him how to fight 977 00:33:06,133 --> 00:33:07,433 um and I 978 00:33:07,500 --> 00:33:10,383 that scene is incredible and I remember I like 979 00:33:10,383 --> 00:33:12,716 I'm reading this scene and thinking 980 00:33:12,983 --> 00:33:14,566 that's exactly what I would do 981 00:33:14,816 --> 00:33:16,833 hmm if as the dad 982 00:33:17,183 --> 00:33:19,466 if I was that dad I would do that exact same alright 983 00:33:19,466 --> 00:33:19,866 you know that 984 00:33:19,866 --> 00:33:20,616 you know we're not 985 00:33:20,616 --> 00:33:22,300 we're not gonna let that happen again 986 00:33:22,300 --> 00:33:25,466 and then seeing that experience through Ryan's eyes 987 00:33:25,466 --> 00:33:26,900 such a beautiful it's 988 00:33:26,900 --> 00:33:28,300 it's it's really 989 00:33:28,300 --> 00:33:30,100 really a great story well 990 00:33:30,100 --> 00:33:31,133 thank you but what 991 00:33:31,133 --> 00:33:33,066 what's so fascinating about it is like in the moment 992 00:33:33,066 --> 00:33:34,133 so Ryan doesn't want that 993 00:33:34,133 --> 00:33:35,733 Ryan wants his dad to comfort him to 994 00:33:35,733 --> 00:33:37,416 to hold him to care for him 995 00:33:37,416 --> 00:33:39,733 but then what happens is Ryan continues getting bullied 996 00:33:39,733 --> 00:33:41,933 he he doesn't really ever learn to fight back 997 00:33:41,933 --> 00:33:45,933 until he is in college and we meet him as a young man 998 00:33:45,933 --> 00:33:47,733 and on the night when he snaps 999 00:33:47,733 --> 00:33:51,583 and he beats somebody up and he finds oh 1000 00:33:51,583 --> 00:33:53,583 I actually really like doing this 1001 00:33:53,583 --> 00:33:55,300 and he likes it in a way that is not really 1002 00:33:55,300 --> 00:33:56,466 purely out of self defense 1003 00:33:56,466 --> 00:33:57,833 he likes it in a way that's uh 1004 00:33:58,133 --> 00:33:59,416 you know quite destructive 1005 00:33:59,416 --> 00:34:01,400 um but he uh 1006 00:34:02,300 --> 00:34:03,066 later like in 1007 00:34:03,066 --> 00:34:03,983 in early adulthood 1008 00:34:03,983 --> 00:34:06,783 like kind of is like bragging to his dad that his dad 1009 00:34:06,783 --> 00:34:08,816 who had kind of put these boxing gloves on 1010 00:34:08,816 --> 00:34:10,333 on his fist when he was a little boy 1011 00:34:10,333 --> 00:34:12,666 and tried to teach him how to fight and uh 1012 00:34:12,666 --> 00:34:14,500 he's trying to brag to his dad like hey 1013 00:34:14,500 --> 00:34:15,100 like I you know 1014 00:34:15,100 --> 00:34:16,416 I've been getting into some fights lately 1015 00:34:16,416 --> 00:34:18,200 like you should see what I'm doing to these guys 1016 00:34:18,216 --> 00:34:19,500 and his dad 1017 00:34:19,500 --> 00:34:22,800 who is now encountering his son as a grown man is like 1018 00:34:22,900 --> 00:34:24,866 what are you doing why are you so stupid 1019 00:34:24,866 --> 00:34:26,766 why would you be getting into these fights 1020 00:34:26,983 --> 00:34:27,866 and Ryan it like 1021 00:34:27,866 --> 00:34:29,700 does not compute in Ryan's brain 1022 00:34:29,700 --> 00:34:31,816 because all he remembers is being this little boy 1023 00:34:31,816 --> 00:34:33,300 who his dad was uh 1024 00:34:33,300 --> 00:34:34,733 was trying to um 1025 00:34:34,733 --> 00:34:37,033 to teach how to fight and so um 1026 00:34:37,700 --> 00:34:39,500 you know I think it's just a case where like 1027 00:34:39,500 --> 00:34:42,683 what one thing about fatherhood is that like 1028 00:34:42,816 --> 00:34:45,983 every father brings to the table their own stuff off 1029 00:34:45,983 --> 00:34:48,733 their own insecurities their own um 1030 00:34:48,733 --> 00:34:49,716 kind of uh 1031 00:34:49,816 --> 00:34:52,300 feelings that they're kind of projecting onto their kid 1032 00:34:52,300 --> 00:34:54,333 and I don't know exactly what was going through 1033 00:34:54,333 --> 00:34:56,416 through Ryan's father's mind at that moment 1034 00:34:56,416 --> 00:34:57,866 when he's trying to teach him how to fight 1035 00:34:57,866 --> 00:35:00,666 but like it was a moment where he felt like 1036 00:35:00,666 --> 00:35:02,700 I need to teach my boy how to fight back 1037 00:35:02,700 --> 00:35:03,700 and then later when 1038 00:35:03,700 --> 00:35:05,783 learning that his boy has grown into a man 1039 00:35:05,783 --> 00:35:07,883 who does fight back uh 1040 00:35:08,183 --> 00:35:10,133 he he goes to a place that a lot of parents go 1041 00:35:10,133 --> 00:35:11,700 which is like you shouldn't be hitting people 1042 00:35:11,700 --> 00:35:13,400 that's bad yeah 1043 00:35:13,533 --> 00:35:14,700 and what a mix and I 1044 00:35:14,700 --> 00:35:17,416 I thought another little aspect of that story that 1045 00:35:17,416 --> 00:35:19,466 I mean it's just this tiny little vignette and 1046 00:35:19,466 --> 00:35:22,566 and yet it it was so um 1047 00:35:23,216 --> 00:35:24,133 uh it 1048 00:35:24,133 --> 00:35:25,383 it it's really 1049 00:35:25,383 --> 00:35:26,966 it was really impactful to me 1050 00:35:27,016 --> 00:35:29,383 which is you kind of get into the 1051 00:35:29,383 --> 00:35:31,433 the mind of the father for a moment 1052 00:35:31,616 --> 00:35:37,133 where the father is kind of teaching the son to fight 1053 00:35:37,133 --> 00:35:41,066 not so that not just so that he'll be protected yeah 1054 00:35:41,066 --> 00:35:44,766 but also because the father feels a little bit of shame 1055 00:35:45,616 --> 00:35:47,316 that his son got beat up 1056 00:35:48,100 --> 00:35:50,666 yeah at least that's how Ryan kind of took it yeah 1057 00:35:50,666 --> 00:35:52,333 at least that's how he felt about it 1058 00:35:52,333 --> 00:35:53,733 Ryan doesn't know but that's yeah 1059 00:35:53,733 --> 00:35:55,766 yeah um 1060 00:35:55,866 --> 00:35:57,300 and I I do 1061 00:35:57,300 --> 00:35:58,683 I think that that's like 1062 00:35:59,533 --> 00:36:01,983 it's such a natural impulse um 1063 00:36:01,983 --> 00:36:06,283 for any parent to internalize like uh 1064 00:36:06,816 --> 00:36:09,216 any any struggle that your kid might have 1065 00:36:09,216 --> 00:36:11,066 is somehow a reflection on you in 1066 00:36:11,066 --> 00:36:12,733 in a negative way and like 1067 00:36:12,733 --> 00:36:16,666 the things that we value and the things that feel like 1068 00:36:16,666 --> 00:36:18,333 embarrassing to us are often 1069 00:36:18,333 --> 00:36:20,183 gonna be different from the things that our kids 1070 00:36:20,183 --> 00:36:22,716 value and that feel embarrassing to them um 1071 00:36:22,900 --> 00:36:25,083 and so we uh 1072 00:36:25,333 --> 00:36:28,566 yeah can have so much of our own identity um 1073 00:36:28,583 --> 00:36:30,316 wrapped up in uh 1074 00:36:30,500 --> 00:36:31,100 and and 1075 00:36:31,100 --> 00:36:32,300 and and those sorts of things and 1076 00:36:32,300 --> 00:36:32,933 you know again 1077 00:36:32,933 --> 00:36:34,266 the the flip side of that is 1078 00:36:34,266 --> 00:36:35,133 is Gideon the 1079 00:36:35,133 --> 00:36:37,700 the kind of star athlete whose parents are uh 1080 00:36:37,700 --> 00:36:40,133 just so over the moon thrilled with him all the time 1081 00:36:40,133 --> 00:36:41,883 because of the fact that he is uh 1082 00:36:42,166 --> 00:36:43,700 he's accomplishing so much 1083 00:36:43,700 --> 00:36:48,200 while at the same time he's not necessarily uh 1084 00:36:48,583 --> 00:36:51,533 learning what he needs to learn to be kind of a fully 1085 00:36:51,533 --> 00:36:52,766 um you know 1086 00:36:53,900 --> 00:36:56,383 a a man who can have like a full robust 1087 00:36:56,383 --> 00:36:57,733 fulfilling kind of life 1088 00:36:57,733 --> 00:36:59,500 because he's kind of chasing that 1089 00:36:59,500 --> 00:37:01,166 that sense of accomplishment all the time 1090 00:37:02,416 --> 00:37:09,833 yeah and the outward trappings of being so successful 1091 00:37:11,066 --> 00:37:15,833 are they they sort of belay the internal experience 1092 00:37:16,216 --> 00:37:17,266 and so you know 1093 00:37:17,266 --> 00:37:18,066 he doesn't 1094 00:37:18,333 --> 00:37:20,700 he doesn't necessarily feel that he's that successful 1095 00:37:20,700 --> 00:37:21,133 right and 1096 00:37:21,133 --> 00:37:24,300 and he doesn't exactly and so but 1097 00:37:24,300 --> 00:37:27,383 but everybody treats him like he is and so he's like 1098 00:37:27,383 --> 00:37:28,483 and and that 1099 00:37:28,500 --> 00:37:32,600 that can really make it hard to 1100 00:37:33,133 --> 00:37:33,866 address 1101 00:37:33,866 --> 00:37:36,300 that gap that we talked about in the very beginning 1102 00:37:36,300 --> 00:37:36,816 right you know 1103 00:37:36,816 --> 00:37:41,066 he's got he's got this internal experience of not being 1104 00:37:41,066 --> 00:37:43,483 but everybody thinks you're this thing over here 1105 00:37:43,500 --> 00:37:45,600 and I feel like this thing over here 1106 00:37:45,783 --> 00:37:48,216 and I feel like I like that 1107 00:37:48,216 --> 00:37:51,016 everybody thinks that I'm like this and 1108 00:37:51,016 --> 00:37:53,183 and if I tell people that no 1109 00:37:53,183 --> 00:37:54,700 this is really my experience 1110 00:37:54,700 --> 00:37:56,966 then this is a bubble that's gonna pop 1111 00:37:57,533 --> 00:37:59,016 and I can't let that happen 1112 00:37:59,016 --> 00:38:00,866 because this is my identity I 1113 00:38:00,866 --> 00:38:02,716 and what I mean 1114 00:38:02,816 --> 00:38:07,766 being able to read about that in such an honest way 1115 00:38:07,933 --> 00:38:11,033 and it's you know 1116 00:38:11,616 --> 00:38:14,600 these men that agreed to do this thing 1117 00:38:15,666 --> 00:38:18,466 are really courageous and 1118 00:38:18,466 --> 00:38:19,666 you know and in some cases 1119 00:38:19,666 --> 00:38:21,566 like you're even using their real names 1120 00:38:21,816 --> 00:38:22,416 uh huh 1121 00:38:22,416 --> 00:38:23,216 um not in all of them 1122 00:38:23,216 --> 00:38:24,300 and you know you 1123 00:38:24,300 --> 00:38:25,100 you've 1124 00:38:25,416 --> 00:38:27,266 and but I don't know man 1125 00:38:27,266 --> 00:38:28,083 I mean 1126 00:38:29,183 --> 00:38:31,766 I really admire them yeah 1127 00:38:32,016 --> 00:38:33,016 uh yeah 1128 00:38:33,016 --> 00:38:33,900 I I I 1129 00:38:33,900 --> 00:38:35,466 I really really do too 1130 00:38:35,466 --> 00:38:37,216 um you know I 1131 00:38:37,216 --> 00:38:41,033 I I just can't say enough about um 1132 00:38:41,416 --> 00:38:43,583 their willingness to to be open 1133 00:38:43,583 --> 00:38:47,766 um about their willingness to kind of reveal uh 1134 00:38:47,933 --> 00:38:49,566 some pretty difficult uh 1135 00:38:49,700 --> 00:38:50,866 pieces of themselves some the 1136 00:38:50,866 --> 00:38:52,583 uh so many of these stories that that 1137 00:38:52,583 --> 00:38:55,700 that are in this book are not flattering to them um 1138 00:38:55,700 --> 00:38:57,433 you know that they're uh 1139 00:38:57,666 --> 00:38:59,216 they're full they're nuanced 1140 00:38:59,216 --> 00:39:00,733 they're complex um 1141 00:39:00,733 --> 00:39:03,866 but often they they don't look great but 1142 00:39:03,866 --> 00:39:04,533 but they're 1143 00:39:04,533 --> 00:39:06,916 they're these real kind of raw and authentic 1144 00:39:07,133 --> 00:39:08,100 um you know 1145 00:39:08,100 --> 00:39:09,983 peaks into into their experience 1146 00:39:09,983 --> 00:39:11,566 and you know Gideon 1147 00:39:11,583 --> 00:39:12,583 um in particular 1148 00:39:12,583 --> 00:39:13,583 since we were talking about him 1149 00:39:13,583 --> 00:39:16,433 like he and his name has been changed but um 1150 00:39:17,533 --> 00:39:19,016 he just let me I mean 1151 00:39:19,016 --> 00:39:23,133 he let it's so rare that we get a peek into what 1152 00:39:23,133 --> 00:39:25,133 the kind of insecurities that are roiling 1153 00:39:25,133 --> 00:39:26,266 beneath the person 1154 00:39:26,266 --> 00:39:28,900 who seems like he has everything going for him 1155 00:39:28,900 --> 00:39:31,683 um and like he 1156 00:39:31,716 --> 00:39:33,716 I mean it even like this the 1157 00:39:33,733 --> 00:39:35,100 his chapter part of the book 1158 00:39:35,100 --> 00:39:36,016 kind of opens with him 1159 00:39:36,016 --> 00:39:38,616 feeling insecure about the size of his penis right 1160 00:39:38,616 --> 00:39:40,116 I mean like he 1161 00:39:40,366 --> 00:39:41,816 and that was a conversation 1162 00:39:41,816 --> 00:39:42,616 we had that conversation 1163 00:39:42,616 --> 00:39:45,266 about four years in to this five year process 1164 00:39:45,266 --> 00:39:48,583 um he'd made an offhand comment about it once years ago 1165 00:39:48,583 --> 00:39:49,183 and I 1166 00:39:49,183 --> 00:39:51,983 we were like on a walk near his home and I just said 1167 00:39:51,983 --> 00:39:53,183 can we talk about the 1168 00:39:53,183 --> 00:39:55,283 can we talk about how you feel about your penis 1169 00:39:55,583 --> 00:39:56,466 and he was like yep 1170 00:39:56,466 --> 00:39:57,733 let's go what do you wanna know 1171 00:39:57,733 --> 00:40:00,000 and and so we did um 1172 00:40:00,100 --> 00:40:00,733 but you know the 1173 00:40:00,733 --> 00:40:03,566 the other other guys as well like um 1174 00:40:04,066 --> 00:40:04,933 it's just really 1175 00:40:04,933 --> 00:40:07,500 really astonishing how much they kind of let me 1176 00:40:07,500 --> 00:40:09,816 let me into their lives and you 1177 00:40:09,816 --> 00:40:10,900 some of them Ryan 1178 00:40:10,900 --> 00:40:12,583 um who we'd spent some time talking about 1179 00:40:12,583 --> 00:40:14,783 the one who whose father tried to teach him to fight 1180 00:40:14,783 --> 00:40:17,000 and who later starts fighting when he's older 1181 00:40:17,066 --> 00:40:17,866 um 1182 00:40:18,416 --> 00:40:19,933 he did use his real name uh 1183 00:40:19,933 --> 00:40:23,666 and he has been like this is my story 1184 00:40:23,666 --> 00:40:26,183 um I don't know how everyone's gonna feel about it 1185 00:40:26,183 --> 00:40:27,500 but uh 1186 00:40:27,500 --> 00:40:31,966 this is who I am and my hope is that sharing it might 1187 00:40:32,016 --> 00:40:34,133 have a positive impact on someone 1188 00:40:34,133 --> 00:40:37,766 and I I wanna kind of stand behind the fact that um 1189 00:40:37,933 --> 00:40:39,300 that this is me um 1190 00:40:39,300 --> 00:40:41,033 and so uh 1191 00:40:41,133 --> 00:40:41,500 yeah I 1192 00:40:41,500 --> 00:40:41,700 I I 1193 00:40:41,700 --> 00:40:46,183 I just can't say enough about how open and honest and 1194 00:40:46,183 --> 00:40:48,500 and vulnerable each of these guys are willing to be 1195 00:40:48,500 --> 00:40:49,416 yeah and 1196 00:40:49,416 --> 00:40:50,566 I mean his case is 1197 00:40:50,816 --> 00:40:53,833 that's really courageous his story in particular is 1198 00:40:54,566 --> 00:40:56,933 he's tough yeah 1199 00:40:56,933 --> 00:40:58,166 he does some rough stuff and 1200 00:40:58,383 --> 00:40:59,733 and you know 1201 00:40:59,733 --> 00:41:01,283 the fact that he's willing to do it 1202 00:41:01,700 --> 00:41:02,700 attach his own name to that I 1203 00:41:02,700 --> 00:41:03,933 I don't I don't know if 1204 00:41:03,933 --> 00:41:05,216 I don't think I'd do it I 1205 00:41:05,216 --> 00:41:06,533 I don't know we're 1206 00:41:06,533 --> 00:41:09,000 and we're all the richer for it and um 1207 00:41:09,533 --> 00:41:10,100 you know but 1208 00:41:10,100 --> 00:41:13,733 I mean even just sharing the story under pseudonym is 1209 00:41:13,733 --> 00:41:15,783 is really brave absolutely 1210 00:41:15,783 --> 00:41:16,933 and absolutely yeah 1211 00:41:16,933 --> 00:41:18,416 I mean we're 1212 00:41:18,416 --> 00:41:20,466 we're really fortunate yeah 1213 00:41:20,466 --> 00:41:22,733 we're really fortunate they decided to let you do it 1214 00:41:22,733 --> 00:41:25,200 and we're really fortunate you decided to do it too 1215 00:41:25,300 --> 00:41:26,133 well thank you one 1216 00:41:26,133 --> 00:41:27,900 one last thing about that that 1217 00:41:27,900 --> 00:41:30,000 that I'll share is um 1218 00:41:30,383 --> 00:41:31,866 you know one of the men 1219 00:41:31,866 --> 00:41:32,666 um 1220 00:41:33,333 --> 00:41:34,183 one thing I did was 1221 00:41:34,183 --> 00:41:37,883 I let them all see their stories in advance 1222 00:41:37,900 --> 00:41:38,533 um I 1223 00:41:38,533 --> 00:41:39,500 I just felt like 1224 00:41:39,500 --> 00:41:41,733 I wanted to write it with so much intimacy 1225 00:41:41,733 --> 00:41:44,700 that I felt like I couldn't publish it without them 1226 00:41:44,700 --> 00:41:47,783 like being able to sit with it and 1227 00:41:47,783 --> 00:41:49,183 and kind of give me a sense of like 1228 00:41:49,183 --> 00:41:50,933 whether I'd kind of captured it or not 1229 00:41:50,933 --> 00:41:52,466 um and the first time I did it 1230 00:41:52,466 --> 00:41:54,266 what I did is I read it out loud to each of 1231 00:41:54,266 --> 00:41:55,983 them I I went in person 1232 00:41:55,983 --> 00:41:57,916 I can't imagine what this session was like 1233 00:41:58,500 --> 00:42:01,333 it was I can't imagine I mean that takes balls 1234 00:42:01,333 --> 00:42:02,700 it takes balls to do that 1235 00:42:02,700 --> 00:42:05,816 to decide to do it and to listen to it on all sides 1236 00:42:05,816 --> 00:42:06,633 that is 1237 00:42:06,700 --> 00:42:08,416 there's some masculinity happening in that room 1238 00:42:08,416 --> 00:42:10,333 right there it was it was intense 1239 00:42:10,333 --> 00:42:11,716 but you know one of them 1240 00:42:11,783 --> 00:42:15,333 there was one scene that's particularly rough 1241 00:42:15,333 --> 00:42:17,416 and he was like 1242 00:42:17,416 --> 00:42:18,616 the first time I read it out loud to him 1243 00:42:18,616 --> 00:42:21,300 he was like I don't know if I can do this 1244 00:42:21,300 --> 00:42:24,216 uh like this is after we'd spent years doing work 1245 00:42:24,216 --> 00:42:25,183 doing all these interviews 1246 00:42:25,183 --> 00:42:26,300 all spending all this time together 1247 00:42:26,300 --> 00:42:28,183 me following him through so much of his life 1248 00:42:28,183 --> 00:42:31,333 and he just had this visceral reaction to it 1249 00:42:31,333 --> 00:42:31,533 he's like 1250 00:42:31,533 --> 00:42:34,100 it's all true like everything you just read happened 1251 00:42:34,100 --> 00:42:37,033 but like something about it was just really tough 1252 00:42:37,183 --> 00:42:38,183 and you know 1253 00:42:38,183 --> 00:42:39,616 then he came back to me a couple weeks later 1254 00:42:39,616 --> 00:42:41,700 we didn't talk for a couple weeks and he said like 1255 00:42:41,700 --> 00:42:42,333 I'm good 1256 00:42:42,333 --> 00:42:45,100 like don't change a thing like I'm I'm totally fine 1257 00:42:45,100 --> 00:42:47,216 and this was one of the men who is a parent 1258 00:42:47,216 --> 00:42:48,716 and what he said was 1259 00:42:48,900 --> 00:42:50,816 the thought of my child reading this 1260 00:42:50,816 --> 00:42:52,466 when they are 15 years old 1261 00:42:52,466 --> 00:42:54,700 and knowing that this is me uh 1262 00:42:54,700 --> 00:42:57,633 feels absolutely terrifying like terrifying um 1263 00:42:57,900 --> 00:42:59,983 but the thought of my child reading this 1264 00:42:59,983 --> 00:43:02,816 when they are forty and I am an old 1265 00:43:02,816 --> 00:43:06,333 man and they have now gone through a lot of stuff 1266 00:43:06,333 --> 00:43:08,583 in their own lives and they have this like 1267 00:43:08,583 --> 00:43:12,066 window into who their father was and is 1268 00:43:12,066 --> 00:43:14,366 and all of the things that shaped me um 1269 00:43:14,533 --> 00:43:16,183 that actually feels really nice like to 1270 00:43:16,183 --> 00:43:19,916 to be to be known by by them in that way and uh 1271 00:43:20,100 --> 00:43:23,666 and so he didn't ask me to change a thing and um yeah 1272 00:43:23,666 --> 00:43:25,616 I I feel you know just can 1273 00:43:25,616 --> 00:43:27,383 cannot say enough about like the 1274 00:43:27,383 --> 00:43:28,900 the level of vulnerability and 1275 00:43:28,900 --> 00:43:31,616 and courage that each of these guys had in in sharing 1276 00:43:31,616 --> 00:43:32,566 sharing this way 1277 00:43:32,816 --> 00:43:34,816 we should all have a journalist follow us around 1278 00:43:34,816 --> 00:43:36,233 for five years hahaha 1279 00:43:36,383 --> 00:43:38,883 I do kind of believe that our story like hahaha 1280 00:43:38,900 --> 00:43:39,716 so that our 1281 00:43:39,816 --> 00:43:42,433 our sons can read it when when we're eighty 1282 00:43:43,100 --> 00:43:45,700 maybe AI I I do think we might be better off where 1283 00:43:45,700 --> 00:43:47,466 you know there there's just something powerful 1284 00:43:47,466 --> 00:43:49,100 everyone's story is fascinating 1285 00:43:49,100 --> 00:43:53,333 like everyone's story if you dig deep enough 1286 00:43:53,333 --> 00:43:55,066 like there there's some interesting stuff there 1287 00:43:55,066 --> 00:43:56,216 and uh I 1288 00:43:56,216 --> 00:43:57,866 I think that it's a really powerful thing 1289 00:43:57,866 --> 00:43:59,066 to have your story told and 1290 00:43:59,066 --> 00:44:00,216 and to be able to like 1291 00:44:00,216 --> 00:44:01,900 more fully understand the stories of 1292 00:44:01,900 --> 00:44:03,483 of people you you know and love 1293 00:44:03,583 --> 00:44:05,033 I think that's absolutely true 1294 00:44:05,133 --> 00:44:08,100 I always love to end these conversations with the 1295 00:44:08,100 --> 00:44:10,200 more or less the same question of everybody 1296 00:44:10,466 --> 00:44:13,600 and that is if there's one principle 1297 00:44:13,700 --> 00:44:17,100 that every parent listening might live by to 1298 00:44:17,100 --> 00:44:20,466 to guide them as they raise excellent men 1299 00:44:20,466 --> 00:44:22,183 what what principle do you 1300 00:44:22,183 --> 00:44:25,283 would you come up with yeah um 1301 00:44:25,816 --> 00:44:28,100 I I don't know if this counts as a principle or not 1302 00:44:28,100 --> 00:44:28,266 but 1303 00:44:28,266 --> 00:44:31,300 the two things that I try to hold on to all the time 1304 00:44:31,300 --> 00:44:34,000 are just empathy and curiosity 1305 00:44:34,266 --> 00:44:38,900 um just trying to as much and again 1306 00:44:38,900 --> 00:44:41,666 it's tough with a two and a half year old to like fully 1307 00:44:41,666 --> 00:44:44,616 like empathize with what's going on in 1308 00:44:44,616 --> 00:44:46,383 in his little brain um 1309 00:44:46,383 --> 00:44:47,683 but uh 1310 00:44:47,700 --> 00:44:50,100 trying to you know 1311 00:44:50,100 --> 00:44:51,066 I can at times 1312 00:44:51,066 --> 00:44:53,216 it can be easy to get pulled into power struggles 1313 00:44:53,216 --> 00:44:54,200 and like yeah 1314 00:44:54,216 --> 00:44:55,133 uh like I 1315 00:44:55,133 --> 00:44:56,133 we're gonna do this 1316 00:44:56,133 --> 00:44:59,816 and we're gonna do this because I said so and um 1317 00:44:59,816 --> 00:45:01,216 and while you want you know 1318 00:45:01,216 --> 00:45:02,333 those firm boundaries 1319 00:45:02,333 --> 00:45:04,800 you want those clear like sets of expectations 1320 00:45:05,100 --> 00:45:05,583 um I 1321 00:45:05,583 --> 00:45:07,133 I I think that also 1322 00:45:07,133 --> 00:45:10,266 like allowing yourself to try to understand 1323 00:45:10,266 --> 00:45:11,900 as best as you can like to 1324 00:45:11,900 --> 00:45:12,933 to the best of like 1325 00:45:12,933 --> 00:45:15,483 the limits of your own empathy or curiosity 1326 00:45:15,816 --> 00:45:17,300 what's going on and 1327 00:45:17,300 --> 00:45:19,066 and that that is making this 1328 00:45:19,066 --> 00:45:20,883 making your kid you know 1329 00:45:21,016 --> 00:45:22,933 pitch the fit that they're pitching or 1330 00:45:22,933 --> 00:45:25,300 or do whatever it is that they're doing um 1331 00:45:25,300 --> 00:45:26,533 and if you can just like 1332 00:45:26,533 --> 00:45:28,733 just even the attempt to understand 1333 00:45:28,733 --> 00:45:31,033 even the attempt to um 1334 00:45:31,616 --> 00:45:33,466 try to enter into their experience ever 1335 00:45:33,466 --> 00:45:35,666 ever so briefly I think can 1336 00:45:35,666 --> 00:45:38,400 can allow you to um 1337 00:45:38,533 --> 00:45:39,983 you know engage with them in a way that is 1338 00:45:39,983 --> 00:45:41,916 a little bit more uh 1339 00:45:42,183 --> 00:45:44,433 just kind of open to um 1340 00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:47,216 to kind of the the full reality of of 1341 00:45:47,216 --> 00:45:49,016 of their experience and and the fact that 1342 00:45:49,016 --> 00:45:55,266 like they are a full complex human being just as we are 1343 00:45:55,266 --> 00:45:56,783 um even though they're 1344 00:45:56,783 --> 00:45:57,933 they're still in formation 1345 00:45:57,933 --> 00:45:59,266 even though so much of 1346 00:45:59,266 --> 00:46:01,416 kind of the way their brains work is uh not 1347 00:46:01,416 --> 00:46:03,333 not ideal um 1348 00:46:03,333 --> 00:46:04,700 like that they are having full 1349 00:46:04,700 --> 00:46:05,900 rich experiences 1350 00:46:05,900 --> 00:46:08,016 just as we are at every moment of every day 1351 00:46:08,016 --> 00:46:09,616 and trying to kind of uh 1352 00:46:09,616 --> 00:46:11,616 understand those experiences 1353 00:46:11,616 --> 00:46:12,816 the best you can in the moment I 1354 00:46:12,816 --> 00:46:15,333 I think serves you well I love that principle 1355 00:46:15,333 --> 00:46:16,900 I think it's great um 1356 00:46:16,900 --> 00:46:18,900 it definitely qualifies and I think I 1357 00:46:18,900 --> 00:46:20,966 I mean it really is uh 1358 00:46:21,266 --> 00:46:21,983 your the the 1359 00:46:21,983 --> 00:46:24,983 the book also reminds us that 1360 00:46:24,983 --> 00:46:27,100 one of the most important gifts 1361 00:46:27,100 --> 00:46:28,733 that we can give our boys 1362 00:46:28,733 --> 00:46:31,100 is that gift of being seen 1363 00:46:31,100 --> 00:46:32,433 and of being known 1364 00:46:33,016 --> 00:46:35,733 right and that they always have this place 1365 00:46:35,733 --> 00:46:36,900 they always have this place 1366 00:46:36,900 --> 00:46:39,100 no matter what they always have this place 1367 00:46:39,100 --> 00:46:41,283 it is a safe place to come and 1368 00:46:41,483 --> 00:46:43,683 you know show yourself with all your faults 1369 00:46:43,816 --> 00:46:45,983 and if you do nothing else as a parent of 1370 00:46:45,983 --> 00:46:50,433 of a boy that's what you wanna be doing absolutely 1371 00:46:50,583 --> 00:46:50,900 absolutely and 1372 00:46:50,900 --> 00:46:53,466 you know you don't have to wait for crises to 1373 00:46:53,466 --> 00:46:55,016 to start those conversations right 1374 00:46:55,016 --> 00:46:56,200 you you start 1375 00:46:56,266 --> 00:46:58,300 it's not even I mean it's 1376 00:46:58,300 --> 00:47:02,666 it's about how you even react when they 1377 00:47:02,666 --> 00:47:04,916 you know throw a fit like yeah 1378 00:47:05,066 --> 00:47:06,016 you can throw a fit if you want 1379 00:47:06,016 --> 00:47:07,233 like I get it 1380 00:47:07,383 --> 00:47:08,266 it's fine yeah 1381 00:47:08,266 --> 00:47:10,416 please don't hit people please don't call me that 1382 00:47:10,416 --> 00:47:11,133 you know let's 1383 00:47:11,133 --> 00:47:12,333 let's set some boundaries to this 1384 00:47:12,333 --> 00:47:12,866 but you know 1385 00:47:12,866 --> 00:47:13,666 man sure 1386 00:47:14,133 --> 00:47:16,866 you gotta if it's a part of learning how to deal with 1387 00:47:16,866 --> 00:47:19,200 strong emotions that's great right absolutely 1388 00:47:19,216 --> 00:47:21,183 absolutely um yeah I 1389 00:47:21,183 --> 00:47:23,016 I I totally agree with all of that yeah 1390 00:47:23,016 --> 00:47:23,466 well Jordan 1391 00:47:23,466 --> 00:47:26,233 thank you so much for joining us today 1392 00:47:26,416 --> 00:47:26,616 uh it 1393 00:47:26,616 --> 00:47:28,183 it has been an absolute privilege to 1394 00:47:28,183 --> 00:47:31,000 to talk to you and and thank you for uh 1395 00:47:31,533 --> 00:47:33,983 for the book as well thank you so much Sean 1396 00:47:33,983 --> 00:47:35,266 I I uh yeah really 1397 00:47:35,266 --> 00:47:37,100 really love this conversation and uh 1398 00:47:37,100 --> 00:47:39,533 so admire and appreciate the work that you're doing 1399 00:47:39,533 --> 00:47:42,316 and I was was grateful to have the chance to talk 1400 00:47:42,366 --> 00:47:43,066 thanks a ton 1401 00:47:43,066 --> 00:47:47,100 if you found today's deep dive into American men 1402 00:47:47,100 --> 00:47:50,866 helpful please pick up a copy of Jordan's book 1403 00:47:50,866 --> 00:47:52,933 and don't forget to like and subscribe to us 1404 00:47:52,933 --> 00:47:55,766 and leave a review more than just about anything 1405 00:47:55,866 --> 00:47:58,233 the reviews really help other people find the show 1406 00:47:58,383 --> 00:48:00,933 my name is Sean Dawson and thank you for joining us 1407 00:48:00,933 --> 00:48:04,233 and remember you are a great parent 1408 00:48:13,066 --> 00:48:16,500 raising men is produced by Phil Hernandez 1409 00:48:16,750 --> 00:48:19,550 this episode was edited by Ralph Tolentino