WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:06.015 --> 00:00:06.585 Adam Hatcher: Hey there. 00:00:06.765 --> 00:00:11.325 Welcome to the 21 Clear Podcast where we talk about anything to 00:00:11.325 --> 00:00:15.855 help you chaos proof your inner family business so you can build a 00:00:15.855 --> 00:00:18.165 great company with a strong family. 00:00:18.915 --> 00:00:24.825 I am your host, Adam Hatcher, and I founded 21 Clear after a successful 00:00:24.825 --> 00:00:29.535 career scaling my family's company to work with other families who want 00:00:29.535 --> 00:00:32.355 to get their company somewhere and. 00:00:32.790 --> 00:00:34.140 Keep their family together. 00:00:34.920 --> 00:00:40.470 Today we are gonna build on the last three episodes of the podcast. 00:00:41.280 --> 00:00:46.050 In episode four, I outlined the chaos proof framework. 00:00:46.500 --> 00:00:50.010 This is the idea that we organize this podcast and all of our 00:00:50.010 --> 00:00:51.450 different resources around. 00:00:51.885 --> 00:00:54.795 And that includes the book that I'm publishing next year, 00:00:55.095 --> 00:00:56.685 the Chaos Proof Framework. 00:00:56.685 --> 00:01:01.635 What do you work on as a family to help you manage the tension that 00:01:01.635 --> 00:01:06.195 is inevitable when family works in and owns a company together? 00:01:06.765 --> 00:01:14.685 In episodes five and six, we explored one part of the chaos proof framework, 00:01:14.865 --> 00:01:20.595 and that is how do you hire family members well or not hire them? 00:01:21.000 --> 00:01:27.150 What are some processes, exercises, and rules or guidance around hiring? 00:01:27.150 --> 00:01:34.230 Well, what we didn't really talk about across those three episodes is when you 00:01:34.230 --> 00:01:37.380 join the family company, what is it like? 00:01:37.710 --> 00:01:42.510 Sometimes it's helpful just to hear someone else's perspective so we can 00:01:42.510 --> 00:01:46.980 help shape your experience or the experience you create for your family. 00:01:47.610 --> 00:01:50.370 You might be considering joining your family company. 00:01:51.105 --> 00:01:56.385 You may be considering hiring another family member soon, or it might be on 00:01:56.385 --> 00:02:01.485 the horizon, or you may have started in the family company recently or 00:02:01.485 --> 00:02:06.225 in the last year or two, and you're trying to figure out what is it 00:02:06.225 --> 00:02:08.265 exactly that you're experiencing. 00:02:10.425 --> 00:02:18.255 I was recently a guest with Andrea Carpenter on her podcast Next Gen Friend. 00:02:18.375 --> 00:02:25.335 Andrea is the president of Transition Strategists, and they specialize in 00:02:25.335 --> 00:02:31.605 working with family companies who are leaning into transition and transitioning 00:02:31.605 --> 00:02:34.305 the company, whatever that may be. 00:02:34.965 --> 00:02:41.595 One thing I like about Andrea's approach is that she specifically focuses 00:02:42.075 --> 00:02:45.705 on the next, the rising generation. 00:02:46.215 --> 00:02:47.895 What are their experiences? 00:02:47.895 --> 00:02:53.325 And helping them ask the question, how do I want to interact with this business? 00:02:53.505 --> 00:02:56.535 Do I want to be in it around it adjacent to it? 00:02:57.075 --> 00:02:58.605 And then how do I go about that? 00:02:59.535 --> 00:03:00.495 Andrea and I. 00:03:01.305 --> 00:03:06.345 Did two podcasts together and had a wide ranging conversation. 00:03:06.585 --> 00:03:10.755 I have the link to that conversation in the show notes and in our 00:03:10.755 --> 00:03:17.085 conversation there was a part of it that dovetailed nicely with 00:03:17.085 --> 00:03:20.115 these last three episodes, Andrea. 00:03:20.880 --> 00:03:24.360 Asked me about my own experience joining my family company. 00:03:25.080 --> 00:03:27.060 We're gonna pick up in the interview. 00:03:27.120 --> 00:03:32.820 She and I have talked about the idea of hiring family well, having family 00:03:32.820 --> 00:03:37.830 hiring criteria, something we talked about here in episodes five and six. 00:03:38.460 --> 00:03:42.960 You'll hear a little bit of that in our conversation, but I wanna jump right 00:03:42.960 --> 00:03:48.120 in to where she asked me about my own experience joining the family company. 00:03:48.690 --> 00:03:51.150 We're gonna take an excerpt from the podcast. 00:03:51.480 --> 00:03:52.650 I hope you enjoy it. 00:03:53.760 --> 00:03:56.620 And with that, here is Andrea and me. 00:03:58.830 --> 00:04:02.280 Obviously there was ultimately this general counsel position. 00:04:02.280 --> 00:04:08.400 You decided that that was a good fit, you met the qualifications and um, felt ready 00:04:08.400 --> 00:04:13.620 to come in, and then what did it feel like once you kind of landed into the business? 00:04:13.620 --> 00:04:13.990 What was that? 00:04:14.475 --> 00:04:18.615 Growth, like what was the relationship like with your dad and your grandpa? 00:04:18.615 --> 00:04:21.135 You said you worked with him for a couple years, so walk us through 00:04:21.135 --> 00:04:25.995 like that first two, three years inside of the family business. 00:04:26.445 --> 00:04:29.325 Let me go back and answer the question I accidentally skipped. 00:04:29.325 --> 00:04:30.325 'cause it comes into that. 00:04:30.820 --> 00:04:31.060 Mm-hmm. 00:04:31.200 --> 00:04:32.260 How, how old am I? 00:04:33.000 --> 00:04:39.735 So 2000, I joined in 2010, so I'm 29 years old, so I would've 00:04:39.735 --> 00:04:41.415 gotten the letter at about 25. 00:04:42.675 --> 00:04:46.695 So it was around four years when I got the letter, four or five years. 00:04:46.695 --> 00:04:49.125 When I got the letter in school, worked for three years outta 00:04:49.125 --> 00:04:50.745 school and then ended up joining. 00:04:53.205 --> 00:04:58.395 The step I skipped over was after I told my father no, what changed? 00:05:01.230 --> 00:05:03.435 I, I went and I don't remember why. 00:05:04.575 --> 00:05:07.065 I don't remember if it was his suggestion or I thought to do 00:05:07.065 --> 00:05:08.505 it or if it was a discussion. 00:05:08.505 --> 00:05:09.495 I don't remember why. 00:05:11.220 --> 00:05:18.720 I went and had lunch with three other family business members, people 00:05:18.720 --> 00:05:19.710 that were working with their family. 00:05:19.710 --> 00:05:21.510 They were third or fourth gens. 00:05:22.830 --> 00:05:26.520 They had about a 15 year age range between them and their 00:05:26.520 --> 00:05:28.080 tenure in their family companies. 00:05:28.080 --> 00:05:31.140 They were all at least 10. 00:05:31.770 --> 00:05:32.970 One was. 00:05:33.480 --> 00:05:36.240 At the time, over 20 years, these were not people that had 00:05:36.240 --> 00:05:37.920 just started in their families. 00:05:38.730 --> 00:05:42.300 And so I went to and had a long lunch one-on-one with all three 00:05:42.300 --> 00:05:44.610 of 'em over a period of time. 00:05:46.410 --> 00:05:51.270 And if I were to roll up the advice that they gave me, it 00:05:51.270 --> 00:05:53.550 would synthesize this way. 00:05:54.235 --> 00:05:57.390 Adam, you are 29 years old. 00:05:59.250 --> 00:05:59.885 You're not 50. 00:06:02.580 --> 00:06:04.710 Your son is six months old. 00:06:05.610 --> 00:06:11.760 Your wife has a job, you have a law degree and have proven that you can practice law. 00:06:13.050 --> 00:06:17.310 There is an opportunity to join the family company and it is not chief 00:06:17.310 --> 00:06:19.380 waiting for dad to retire officer. 00:06:19.770 --> 00:06:23.610 It is a real job that requires a professional certification 00:06:23.910 --> 00:06:27.660 that you hold and have shown you are capable of performing. 00:06:28.200 --> 00:06:28.320 Mm-hmm. 00:06:29.400 --> 00:06:31.440 You don't know what it's going to be like. 00:06:32.370 --> 00:06:33.930 You might've interned there a couple years. 00:06:33.930 --> 00:06:37.440 You might've been around these people for a long time, but you don't know what 00:06:37.440 --> 00:06:38.850 they're gonna be like when you get there. 00:06:39.600 --> 00:06:41.160 You don't know what they're like to work with. 00:06:41.250 --> 00:06:43.740 There's a lot you, I would tell anyone that there's a lot good 00:06:43.740 --> 00:06:47.340 and hard that you don't know about your family until you step into the 00:06:47.340 --> 00:06:48.660 company with 'em for a little while. 00:06:48.660 --> 00:06:48.720 Hmm. 00:06:49.650 --> 00:06:50.970 Go through a recession together. 00:06:51.240 --> 00:06:52.440 Go through growth together. 00:06:53.100 --> 00:06:55.620 Go through a lean year. 00:06:56.400 --> 00:07:00.690 A major capital allocation, you'll learn new things about each other. 00:07:00.720 --> 00:07:04.410 I said, you don't know what it's gonna be like, but at 29 you're 00:07:04.410 --> 00:07:05.940 stepping into an actual job. 00:07:06.450 --> 00:07:09.870 Two years later, if you don't like it, you're only 31. 00:07:10.740 --> 00:07:10.830 Mm-hmm. 00:07:11.070 --> 00:07:12.840 And you find a successor and you leave. 00:07:13.020 --> 00:07:16.920 And the story is, I never thought I was gonna work in the family company truth. 00:07:17.340 --> 00:07:18.060 They called me. 00:07:19.500 --> 00:07:22.140 There was a need I was uniquely capable of filling. 00:07:23.040 --> 00:07:24.480 I stood the legal office up. 00:07:25.155 --> 00:07:26.685 It wasn't the right thing for me. 00:07:27.105 --> 00:07:29.475 I found a really good person, backfilled myself and left 00:07:29.475 --> 00:07:30.345 him better than I found him. 00:07:31.005 --> 00:07:31.125 Hmm. 00:07:31.125 --> 00:07:33.225 I said, that's a good story. 00:07:33.705 --> 00:07:37.815 And your son's only two by that time, two or three years old. 00:07:38.355 --> 00:07:38.445 Mm-hmm. 00:07:39.555 --> 00:07:45.765 If you don't do it, you will always regret that you didn't try, 00:07:47.925 --> 00:07:53.535 and if you wait till you're 50, it has to work. 00:07:54.555 --> 00:07:54.705 Yep. 00:07:55.125 --> 00:07:57.375 At 29 or 30, it doesn't have to work. 00:07:57.700 --> 00:07:58.120 Mm-hmm. 00:07:58.875 --> 00:08:07.755 And that combination or synthesized advice led to my dad and I. 00:08:07.755 --> 00:08:12.555 We took an, we went away for one or two nights together, had a couple of dinners, 00:08:12.615 --> 00:08:19.845 a couple of conversations, and decided that we would take the chance together and 00:08:19.845 --> 00:08:21.555 that I would start as the general counsel. 00:08:22.605 --> 00:08:29.805 One thing I didn't realize about the five part hiring criteria 00:08:29.805 --> 00:08:33.795 he gave me, and I don't remember when he explained this to me. 00:08:34.305 --> 00:08:39.315 Hmm, but why did he require graduating from college, graduate school 00:08:39.435 --> 00:08:41.205 work experience somewhere else? 00:08:41.775 --> 00:08:44.475 None of that is unique, by the way, in family companies. 00:08:44.475 --> 00:08:46.125 I've seen lots of companies that do that. 00:08:46.785 --> 00:08:47.205 Writing. 00:08:47.205 --> 00:08:49.035 It's a different thing, but lots that do that. 00:08:49.845 --> 00:08:52.245 And why did he require getting promoted? 00:08:53.895 --> 00:08:59.775 He told me either before he, he hired me or sometime in my time there, he 00:08:59.775 --> 00:09:07.005 said, Adam, the only person who ever promoted me was my dad, or because 00:09:07.005 --> 00:09:08.385 I purchased something from him. 00:09:09.740 --> 00:09:12.375 I graduated from the University of Georgia on a Friday. 00:09:12.735 --> 00:09:13.500 I went to work for my. 00:09:14.175 --> 00:09:18.615 Father with my brother on a Monday, and that's the only person who ever 00:09:18.615 --> 00:09:20.805 moved me up in the professional world. 00:09:21.435 --> 00:09:26.565 He told me, son, I want you to know you have value and skill outside of 00:09:26.565 --> 00:09:33.645 my eyes worth, outside of what your dad thinks, and that you have value 00:09:33.645 --> 00:09:35.445 and options outside of this company 00:09:39.645 --> 00:09:40.430 looking back. 00:09:41.865 --> 00:09:49.875 That made joining easier and more independent and freer, and I could 00:09:49.875 --> 00:09:51.375 have never put words on it back then. 00:09:51.890 --> 00:09:52.310 Mm-hmm. 00:09:53.265 --> 00:09:53.745 Mm. 00:09:54.075 --> 00:09:58.515 I there's a lot of, a lot of freedom in that and a lot of wisdom. 00:09:58.515 --> 00:10:02.955 And I'm also wondering, like a lot of that comes from his second generation. 00:10:03.720 --> 00:10:06.720 Experience having actually lived it. 00:10:06.720 --> 00:10:10.860 I don't know if he would've been able to craft that type of 00:10:11.550 --> 00:10:15.180 scenario or those reasons for the exact example that you gave. 00:10:15.180 --> 00:10:15.510 Right. 00:10:15.510 --> 00:10:16.530 Of him. 00:10:16.560 --> 00:10:21.480 Not only ever being promoted or only ever working inside of the family 00:10:21.480 --> 00:10:27.420 business, you don't have to come from a great story to create a better story. 00:10:27.840 --> 00:10:32.220 I was just reading, there's a Swiss chocolate f. 00:10:33.015 --> 00:10:34.785 Company later act. 00:10:35.325 --> 00:10:37.485 They're a third gen family company. 00:10:38.115 --> 00:10:41.265 The succession story is so good. 00:10:41.955 --> 00:10:42.105 Hmm. 00:10:42.105 --> 00:10:44.595 It was 2021. 00:10:44.595 --> 00:10:46.095 The second generation 00:10:48.105 --> 00:10:51.885 leader finally steps away, turns it over to his three sons after 00:10:51.885 --> 00:10:53.655 a three year transition period. 00:10:53.985 --> 00:10:55.875 You go back, that's 20, 21. 00:10:55.875 --> 00:10:56.385 You go back to. 00:10:56.730 --> 00:11:02.970 2006, he hires a managing director of the family company and says, your job 00:11:02.970 --> 00:11:06.900 is to increase the brand until the third generation's ready to take over. 00:11:07.410 --> 00:11:11.910 Then all three of the sons go to university and they have different 00:11:11.910 --> 00:11:14.700 experiences, and then they rotate through the company and then he 00:11:14.700 --> 00:11:18.960 turns it over and the board is now non-family with some family and 00:11:18.960 --> 00:11:20.460 the executives or non-family with. 00:11:20.535 --> 00:11:23.235 Some, and it's just, it's the kind of thing you look at and it's kind 00:11:23.235 --> 00:11:25.005 of intimidating as a family company. 00:11:25.245 --> 00:11:26.445 Like, wow, that's great. 00:11:26.595 --> 00:11:27.765 Well, you wanna know where he started? 00:11:29.295 --> 00:11:34.875 His name's, uh, rg, JURG, uh, RG the sec, the second generation. 00:11:35.715 --> 00:11:40.305 He is a missionary in India with his three young children. 00:11:40.935 --> 00:11:44.295 His father calls him this, this, this is not a family action meeting. 00:11:44.295 --> 00:11:49.035 If dad calls him out of nowhere and says in 1994 and says the company. 00:11:49.855 --> 00:11:51.085 Is going to fail. 00:11:51.535 --> 00:11:55.255 Um, I would like you if you would come back to help, try to 00:11:55.255 --> 00:11:56.875 save it, but you don't have to. 00:11:57.295 --> 00:11:59.425 I know you're in India and you're a missionary and I'm, 00:11:59.515 --> 00:12:00.595 you know, I respect you. 00:12:02.065 --> 00:12:08.095 Um, that's how he started and then he did something much different. 00:12:08.755 --> 00:12:08.935 Yeah. 00:12:09.625 --> 00:12:14.665 And my father, likewise, Friday to Monday, did something fundamentally different. 00:12:15.270 --> 00:12:15.780 Yeah, for me. 00:12:16.260 --> 00:12:16.530 Yeah. 00:12:16.980 --> 00:12:19.350 So it doesn't matter what the previous generation has done, you 00:12:19.350 --> 00:12:23.220 can build on the platform, you, you can steal the good things they did 00:12:23.220 --> 00:12:25.110 and then build on top of the chaos. 00:12:26.250 --> 00:12:26.370 Mm-hmm. 00:12:27.090 --> 00:12:28.980 And I think I hear this a lot. 00:12:28.980 --> 00:12:32.880 So let's, like, let's shift a little bit into like actually working in 00:12:32.880 --> 00:12:34.410 the business and actually scaling it. 00:12:34.410 --> 00:12:38.760 'cause there's that tension of being a rising gen and you start to get more 00:12:38.760 --> 00:12:42.330 responsibility and you're stepping more into leadership and it's like. 00:12:43.030 --> 00:12:45.700 Do I actually have authority to do this? 00:12:45.760 --> 00:12:50.200 The, the people who did this before are still around, they're still leaders. 00:12:50.200 --> 00:12:54.430 Like did you have any of that tension and what did that, what 00:12:54.430 --> 00:12:55.630 did that look like for you? 00:12:55.630 --> 00:12:56.800 How did you navigate that? 00:12:58.150 --> 00:12:59.980 No, we didn't have any tension at all. 00:12:59.980 --> 00:13:01.000 I don't know who does that. 00:13:01.000 --> 00:13:02.500 Probably just the weak ones, right. 00:13:04.515 --> 00:13:04.725 I wish. 00:13:05.355 --> 00:13:06.645 Oh, wait, so I, I'm sorry. 00:13:06.650 --> 00:13:06.970 It was a joke. 00:13:07.095 --> 00:13:08.325 It was a joke, everyone. 00:13:08.835 --> 00:13:09.225 Oh, that's right. 00:13:09.225 --> 00:13:10.725 Not everybody can see my, that's right. 00:13:10.725 --> 00:13:12.375 If you're watching this on YouTube, you saw my eyes. 00:13:13.935 --> 00:13:21.255 No, I didn't have words for this until about 12 months ago. 00:13:22.875 --> 00:13:23.775 Somebody said. 00:13:25.560 --> 00:13:28.560 Y you know why family businesses are hard, why working with family 00:13:28.560 --> 00:13:30.180 and a company that you own is hard? 00:13:30.720 --> 00:13:31.380 Oh, I don't know. 00:13:31.380 --> 00:13:31.770 Tell me. 00:13:31.770 --> 00:13:37.440 I did it for 13 years that, because what you've done is you have mixed 00:13:37.500 --> 00:13:42.930 the unconditional nature of family with the very conditional nature 00:13:42.930 --> 00:13:45.390 of a for-profit corporation. 00:13:47.100 --> 00:13:51.570 And I thought about that and went, huh, okay, so think about your wedding photo. 00:13:52.515 --> 00:13:56.595 I think about mine, there's a spot in my wedding photo that is 00:13:56.805 --> 00:13:59.925 unconditionally for my father-in-law. 00:14:01.095 --> 00:14:04.545 And it doesn't matter what happens in our relationship. 00:14:04.545 --> 00:14:07.455 We have a great relationship, but even if we didn't, if it were 00:14:07.455 --> 00:14:10.155 strained, if it were broken, mm-hmm. 00:14:10.161 --> 00:14:11.625 It doesn't change that. 00:14:11.625 --> 00:14:15.795 That spot in that picture is unconditionally for my father-in-law. 00:14:16.245 --> 00:14:19.005 Even if he's not in it, like there's always a spot for it. 00:14:19.005 --> 00:14:19.905 Mm-hmm. 00:14:20.250 --> 00:14:22.455 That's the unconditional nature of family. 00:14:22.455 --> 00:14:29.025 It's set at birth, it's developed in family systems, but business 00:14:29.025 --> 00:14:31.215 is not like that at all. 00:14:31.695 --> 00:14:33.855 I don't think business is the other side of the coin. 00:14:33.855 --> 00:14:36.825 It is diametrically opposed and intention. 00:14:36.855 --> 00:14:41.025 It is conditioned on competitive advantage, market forces, 00:14:41.265 --> 00:14:43.695 tariffs, leadership capabilities. 00:14:44.670 --> 00:14:49.020 The marketplace will decide conditionally about the company. 00:14:49.050 --> 00:14:52.140 And when you work with your family, you take these two 00:14:52.140 --> 00:14:54.030 things and mix them together. 00:14:54.270 --> 00:14:57.630 The unconditional nature with the conditional nature of the business. 00:14:57.810 --> 00:15:00.120 Why did my grandmother walk out on my grandfather? 00:15:01.140 --> 00:15:04.590 She was not qualified to be a receptionist. 00:15:05.130 --> 00:15:08.880 It had been over 20 years since she had taken shorthand, which 00:15:08.880 --> 00:15:10.275 was a way people took down. 00:15:12.120 --> 00:15:15.150 Dictation back then to then turn it into a letter. 00:15:15.480 --> 00:15:19.440 She did not tell him that she had forgotten how to do it. 00:15:19.740 --> 00:15:24.960 He dictated a letter to her, he left for lunch, came back, she put, 00:15:25.350 --> 00:15:30.150 it was pretty much gibberish on his desk and then he having very 00:15:30.150 --> 00:15:32.880 little tact as a professional said. 00:15:32.880 --> 00:15:35.280 Marian, what were you thinking? 00:15:37.290 --> 00:15:38.520 The response back? 00:15:38.580 --> 00:15:41.730 Uh, would make most HR professionals blush. 00:15:41.970 --> 00:15:45.180 And then she finished it by saying, and Bill, I quit. 00:15:45.570 --> 00:15:45.780 Okay. 00:15:45.780 --> 00:15:46.710 What happened there? 00:15:46.800 --> 00:15:48.450 I mean, it's funny we've told that story. 00:15:48.930 --> 00:15:51.210 He loved her till death did them part. 00:15:51.270 --> 00:15:51.360 Mm-hmm. 00:15:51.600 --> 00:15:53.550 And the company is at 52 years now. 00:15:53.550 --> 00:15:55.590 It's funny, but what happened there? 00:15:56.790 --> 00:16:01.140 They brought their unconditional marriage in and put no formality 00:16:01.140 --> 00:16:05.340 in rules around how they work together, how they resolve conflict. 00:16:06.285 --> 00:16:09.315 How they talked to each other, what the qualifications for 00:16:09.315 --> 00:16:11.025 their jobs were or their roles. 00:16:11.115 --> 00:16:15.375 And then when an inflection point came, there's tension there all 00:16:15.375 --> 00:16:19.215 the time, and without any sort of governance rules around it. 00:16:19.515 --> 00:16:20.535 It blew up into chaos. 00:16:20.535 --> 00:16:21.495 And my grandma walked out. 00:16:21.500 --> 00:16:21.810 Mm-hmm. 00:16:23.100 --> 00:16:23.370 Yeah. 00:16:23.670 --> 00:16:28.560 And that's not a, somebody asked me, they said, when, when I started 21, clear to 00:16:28.560 --> 00:16:31.530 work with families who wanna get their company somewhere and stay together. 00:16:31.620 --> 00:16:33.930 'cause that's what my experience was with my family. 00:16:36.270 --> 00:16:37.770 Are you, do you do succession? 00:16:37.800 --> 00:16:40.530 I said, well, I mean, that's part of it, but that's only 00:16:40.530 --> 00:16:41.820 one part of the life lifecycle. 00:16:41.820 --> 00:16:44.310 In fact, a succession event's only gonna happen. 00:16:45.165 --> 00:16:48.495 Ever two or three times for a family company, most of them 00:16:48.495 --> 00:16:51.045 will never get to the fourth, and a lot of times that's okay. 00:16:51.435 --> 00:16:55.845 If you wait till succession, you might never get there because 00:16:55.845 --> 00:17:00.555 that tension, just like with my grandparents, exists on the first day. 00:17:01.685 --> 00:17:01.755 Mm-hmm. 00:17:02.850 --> 00:17:03.120 Yeah. 00:17:03.780 --> 00:17:09.780 And so the, like as you moved up in your role and you start helping scale the 00:17:09.780 --> 00:17:15.450 company, did you ever feel that that tension moment of like, my ideas or what 00:17:15.450 --> 00:17:20.160 I'm bringing, like feels a little bit bigger or they're not moving fast enough? 00:17:20.160 --> 00:17:24.150 How do you balance some of, some of those things in, in the business? 00:17:24.335 --> 00:17:24.555 Mm. 00:17:27.690 --> 00:17:28.920 I'll tell you a moment. 00:17:28.920 --> 00:17:29.940 Let me, let me think. 00:17:30.540 --> 00:17:37.380 I'll tell you a moment that was difficult and one that was great. 00:17:38.160 --> 00:17:38.190 Okay. 00:17:38.190 --> 00:17:44.220 My belief is when you work with your family in a company, and that's my 00:17:44.220 --> 00:17:45.810 perspective, 'cause that's what I did. 00:17:46.350 --> 00:17:49.020 I was a NextGen who chose to work in the company. 00:17:49.500 --> 00:17:52.140 We have not formally established a family office. 00:17:52.140 --> 00:17:52.620 It's not. 00:17:52.965 --> 00:17:57.075 There is asset, there are assets in real estate to manage, but that's not 00:17:57.075 --> 00:17:58.665 where the majority of the energy was. 00:17:58.665 --> 00:18:03.405 The energy of the family and the family employees was in the growing of the 00:18:03.405 --> 00:18:05.145 core staffing and recruiting business. 00:18:05.535 --> 00:18:05.625 Mm-hmm. 00:18:07.365 --> 00:18:13.275 I remember once working with my father to help. 00:18:13.620 --> 00:18:17.520 As the head of corporate strategy create a tighter strategic calendar 00:18:17.520 --> 00:18:23.430 to run the company on, uh, calendar based on the budget cycle and general 00:18:23.430 --> 00:18:28.440 client demands nowadays trying to help our strategy meetings and thus the 00:18:28.440 --> 00:18:30.000 board meetings, the family meetings. 00:18:30.690 --> 00:18:33.660 All aligned with creating priorities for the next year. 00:18:34.170 --> 00:18:35.100 Worked with a consultant. 00:18:35.100 --> 00:18:36.660 Came up with a really great proposal. 00:18:37.380 --> 00:18:42.120 My dad and I figured it out together, and I forgot to go bounce it 00:18:42.120 --> 00:18:45.900 one-on-one off of my other non-family executive peers before the meeting. 00:18:46.860 --> 00:18:47.070 Hmm. 00:18:47.130 --> 00:18:49.530 So instead we present it to him in executive meeting. 00:18:49.710 --> 00:18:52.890 Well, we had acquired a different business line by then that ran 00:18:52.890 --> 00:18:55.440 on a totally different schedule. 00:18:55.560 --> 00:18:57.990 Not a completely different, but different enough, and had their own 00:18:57.990 --> 00:18:59.640 schedule and had been very successful. 00:19:00.405 --> 00:19:03.495 Several other executives with far more tenure than me who were caught 00:19:03.495 --> 00:19:06.315 off guard by this presentation, a new calendar they had to follow. 00:19:06.615 --> 00:19:09.735 And so they all pushed back, which is pretty normal. 00:19:10.455 --> 00:19:10.545 Mm-hmm. 00:19:11.535 --> 00:19:15.585 And it ended up getting pushed to the side for. 00:19:18.660 --> 00:19:24.330 Further discussion and debate, and I think for most executives that's pretty normal. 00:19:24.510 --> 00:19:27.780 You think you have something, maybe you even had a deal with the CEO. 00:19:27.960 --> 00:19:29.940 You get in there and it goes different than you thought 00:19:29.940 --> 00:19:31.140 and you just check and adjust. 00:19:31.145 --> 00:19:31.525 Mm-hmm. 00:19:31.715 --> 00:19:32.325 Well, in a family. 00:19:33.720 --> 00:19:35.550 It feels like, come on Dan. 00:19:37.050 --> 00:19:38.850 We had this, what? 00:19:39.270 --> 00:19:40.110 What was that? 00:19:40.290 --> 00:19:41.580 I thought you had my back. 00:19:42.630 --> 00:19:42.640 Mm-hmm. 00:19:42.660 --> 00:19:44.310 We both know this is the right thing. 00:19:44.490 --> 00:19:45.300 What happened? 00:19:45.330 --> 00:19:46.860 Like that's not something. 00:19:47.820 --> 00:19:51.210 That is as pers like there's, it's just not as personal. 00:19:51.210 --> 00:19:52.800 I've had a lot of bosses that weren't my dad. 00:19:53.280 --> 00:19:53.370 Mm-hmm. 00:19:53.610 --> 00:19:56.430 You might get miffed or annoyed, but there's not that personal. 00:19:56.490 --> 00:19:59.400 Ooh, do we, do we have each other's back here? 00:19:59.400 --> 00:19:59.820 What are we doing? 00:20:00.630 --> 00:20:00.840 Mm-hmm. 00:20:01.320 --> 00:20:05.190 That's one of the, that mixing of conditional and unconditional. 00:20:05.700 --> 00:20:05.910 Yeah. 00:20:05.940 --> 00:20:07.110 That's one of the hard moments. 00:20:07.560 --> 00:20:08.850 I'll tell you one of the good ones. 00:20:10.770 --> 00:20:12.270 The company was around. 00:20:14.535 --> 00:20:18.240 We were probably around 200 employees, still a regional company. 00:20:19.320 --> 00:20:25.950 I was new into human resources, so at that time I had corporate strategy, 00:20:25.950 --> 00:20:31.290 hr, and, I'm sorry, corporate strategy, legal, and then added human resources. 00:20:31.950 --> 00:20:36.030 And in my annual review, 'cause my father and I did all the normal rhythms 00:20:36.030 --> 00:20:40.410 of the company, one-on-one meetings and reviews, we got to the question. 00:20:41.475 --> 00:20:43.245 Do you have what you need to do your best work? 00:20:44.925 --> 00:20:46.005 And I said, no. 00:20:47.115 --> 00:20:48.555 I said, take that moment in. 00:20:49.275 --> 00:20:54.255 Both the executive in those three combined roles has said, I don't have what I need 00:20:54.255 --> 00:20:58.365 to do, and your son has just said, I don't have what I need to do my best work. 00:20:59.085 --> 00:21:00.255 He said, well, what do you mean? 00:21:00.735 --> 00:21:01.275 Trying to think? 00:21:01.395 --> 00:21:02.415 What have I not given you? 00:21:04.035 --> 00:21:05.775 And I think this is a question 00:21:08.745 --> 00:21:09.915 a family member. 00:21:10.530 --> 00:21:14.400 In my position would've been quicker to ask than a non-family member. 00:21:14.730 --> 00:21:15.390 I'm not certain. 00:21:16.050 --> 00:21:16.290 Hmm. 00:21:16.410 --> 00:21:21.630 But what next gens can do when it's going really well, I said, are you and MaryLee? 00:21:21.690 --> 00:21:23.160 'cause we used first names at work. 00:21:23.670 --> 00:21:26.430 So my mother is MaryLee Are you and MaryLee happy? 00:21:26.430 --> 00:21:27.480 He said, what do you mean? 00:21:28.200 --> 00:21:30.120 Are you and MaryLee happy at the company? 00:21:30.120 --> 00:21:31.920 Was about 200, 200 million. 00:21:32.010 --> 00:21:35.220 Are you and Mary-Lee happy at 200 top line? 00:21:35.790 --> 00:21:37.650 I said, well, why do you ask? 00:21:38.400 --> 00:21:39.870 For the three roles I'm in. 00:21:40.470 --> 00:21:45.450 If you're content here with, again, incremental growth year over year, but 00:21:45.450 --> 00:21:50.130 not an aggressive growth target, if you're happy here, my job needs to go one way. 00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:54.870 But if you wanna take this and try to march it to a billion dollars top 00:21:54.870 --> 00:22:00.600 line, if you wanna break into the top 15 or 20 in the industry nationally, 00:22:01.290 --> 00:22:04.770 that's a totally different job and you're the one who makes the call. 00:22:06.510 --> 00:22:07.530 But I need to know. 00:22:08.400 --> 00:22:08.610 Hmm. 00:22:11.700 --> 00:22:15.150 And the conversations that came after that were interesting. 00:22:16.665 --> 00:22:20.265 And one of the advantages of a family business, because what we uncovered 00:22:20.775 --> 00:22:25.005 is this went all the way back to some of my father's deep seated religious 00:22:25.005 --> 00:22:28.905 beliefs about where you put your identity and if you grow a company 00:22:28.905 --> 00:22:31.605 too fast, how you can become absorbed. 00:22:32.025 --> 00:22:34.755 It's hard enough in a family company not to let it absorb your 00:22:34.755 --> 00:22:36.945 identity, but if you start to have. 00:22:37.320 --> 00:22:42.810 Mar a march of success, how it can double down on that difficulty 00:22:42.990 --> 00:22:47.070 and border on idolatry of a company and what it provides. 00:22:47.700 --> 00:22:47.940 Hmm. 00:22:48.060 --> 00:22:53.790 That's where his lack of setting that call it a big, hairy, audacious goal. 00:22:53.790 --> 00:22:55.920 Thematic goal, one big thing. 00:22:56.775 --> 00:23:01.875 Where his desire to not set one of those came from, and he and I were able to work 00:23:01.875 --> 00:23:06.525 through that and balance both the humility that he wanted to see in the company. 00:23:07.035 --> 00:23:12.915 And the organization's need to have a steady, repeatable forward march. 00:23:14.865 --> 00:23:17.475 I thought back on that example a few years later. 00:23:17.535 --> 00:23:21.015 I didn't realize it in the moment what had happened, but I thought, woo, I 00:23:21.015 --> 00:23:26.475 don't know how many people can talk to their CEO boss, push on their religious 00:23:26.475 --> 00:23:31.425 beliefs and find a compromise that that incorporates all of that and moves 00:23:31.425 --> 00:23:34.995 that organization forward in a way that is consistent with what they want. 00:23:35.685 --> 00:23:35.925 Yeah. 00:23:36.945 --> 00:23:37.155 Yeah. 00:23:37.185 --> 00:23:38.895 So that's the, the difficult part. 00:23:38.895 --> 00:23:40.425 The man, I thought you had my back. 00:23:40.485 --> 00:23:43.215 Like that's the hard side of family business. 00:23:43.695 --> 00:23:45.375 And then there's some really good stuff. 00:23:45.375 --> 00:23:47.055 And then we, what'd we do? 00:23:47.865 --> 00:23:49.785 Quadrupled the company in seven years. 00:23:50.295 --> 00:23:56.445 I hope you enjoyed this preview of the conversation between Andrea and me. 00:23:56.985 --> 00:24:01.125 Please use the link in the show notes to find Andrea. 00:24:02.085 --> 00:24:07.725 The Next Gen Friend podcast, and both the first and second episodes 00:24:07.965 --> 00:24:12.465 with our conversation about being a next gen in a family company. 00:24:13.755 --> 00:24:18.975 I founded 21 Clear with a dream of ending chaos in family businesses. 00:24:19.215 --> 00:24:23.085 We're for families who want to take their company somewhere and keep 00:24:23.085 --> 00:24:25.065 their family together in the process. 00:24:25.245 --> 00:24:29.475 And we do this two ways through resources like this podcast. 00:24:29.475 --> 00:24:30.915 We have a monthly newsletter. 00:24:31.340 --> 00:24:34.430 LinkedIn posts and I'm publishing a book next year. 00:24:35.060 --> 00:24:39.470 The other way we end Family Business chaos is through consulting services. 00:24:39.800 --> 00:24:42.920 You can learn more about those@twentyoneclear.com. 00:24:44.240 --> 00:24:47.690 I hope you enjoyed this preview of my conversation with Andrea. 00:24:48.290 --> 00:24:54.080 I hope it helped you in some way on your own inner family business journey. 00:24:54.770 --> 00:24:58.400 I'll talk to you next time, as my grandfather would've said. 00:24:59.055 --> 00:25:02.325 Thank you so very, very much for listening.