Rachel Casey (00:00:06):
Welcome to Sober Banter.

Rachel Casey (00:00:07):
My name is Rachel.

Rachel Casey (00:00:08):
I am hosting solo.

Rachel Casey (00:00:10):
Colin is at work, his full-time job.

Rachel Casey (00:00:13):
The guest right now is in London, UK.

Rachel Casey (00:00:15):
Finding a time has been back and forth.

Rachel Casey (00:00:18):
So I really want to invite Neil, CEO, owner of Alcohol Free Warrior.

Rachel Casey (00:00:24):
And that's if you want to visit alcoholfreewarrior.com.

Rachel Casey (00:00:28):
After nearly 30 years of drinking,

Rachel Casey (00:00:30):
starting at the age of 14,

Rachel Casey (00:00:31):
you reached a turning point in 2022 that made you really want to commit to sobriety.

Rachel Casey (00:00:37):
Not only did you have a complete transformation,

Rachel Casey (00:00:39):
both physically and mentally,

Rachel Casey (00:00:41):
you were able to reverse chronic illness.

Rachel Casey (00:00:43):
You were able to work through trauma.

Rachel Casey (00:00:45):
And now you dedicate your life to helping others find that same freedom in education, support.

Rachel Casey (00:00:50):
Welcome, Neil.

Neil Rutherford (00:00:51):
Thank you.

Neil Rutherford (00:00:52):
Thank you for that introduction.

Neil Rutherford (00:00:53):
And it's always nice to hear that read back to you.

Rachel Casey (00:00:56):
Yeah, right.

Rachel Casey (00:00:57):
An easy, fun, warm-up question.

Rachel Casey (00:00:59):
Was there one guilty pleasure or substitute that you used in early sobriety?

Rachel Casey (00:01:04):
I mean, like mine was sugar, for sure.

Neil Rutherford (00:01:06):
Yeah, I was going to say exactly that.

Neil Rutherford (00:01:08):
Similar to you, the sugar.

Neil Rutherford (00:01:10):
And that's something that's almost been last to go because I still had to work hard on that.

Neil Rutherford (00:01:15):
Yeah, I always felt I didn't have a sweet tooth while I was drinking.

Neil Rutherford (00:01:18):
But once I stopped, I was consuming as much sugar and sugar products as I could.

Rachel Casey (00:01:24):
same yeah and i was told that chocolate can release similar endorphins so i would

Rachel Casey (00:01:29):
have those little hershey bars and if i was really craving a drink or something

Rachel Casey (00:01:34):
things i also did text a sponsor i lived with my husband so there was some

Rachel Casey (00:01:38):
accountability go to a meeting but also if it were really late at night and i woke

Rachel Casey (00:01:42):
up in the middle of the night probably like the first couple weeks after the first

Rachel Casey (00:01:46):
few weeks i slept like a baby

Rachel Casey (00:01:48):
So I didn't know if you had any other little tips that you went through in the very early days.

Neil Rutherford (00:01:54):
Yeah, for me, it was very much so long as I didn't drink, that was key.

Neil Rutherford (00:01:58):
So if it was having sugar or whatever else I had to change in my routine and my lifestyle,

Neil Rutherford (00:02:04):
so long as I didn't drink that day,

Neil Rutherford (00:02:06):
that was a win.

Neil Rutherford (00:02:07):
And then slowly over time, I built in the other healthy habits.

Neil Rutherford (00:02:11):
I actually did my diploma last year in coaching and positive psychology.

Neil Rutherford (00:02:15):
And the interesting thing about that is you can lend so many aspects of this

Neil Rutherford (00:02:22):
mindset to any other addiction once you sort of break down and understand what's

Neil Rutherford (00:02:27):
going on in the brain.

Neil Rutherford (00:02:28):
And I found alcohol was like the first domino, the first pillar to tackle.

Neil Rutherford (00:02:33):
And then I've managed to get everything else in line since that.

Neil Rutherford (00:02:36):
Yes, it's been a journey.

Neil Rutherford (00:02:37):
And it's still, as I say, two and a half years now since I had my last drink.

Rachel Casey (00:02:42):
And what is your sobriety date?

Neil Rutherford (00:02:44):
So it was 24th of November, 22.

Neil Rutherford (00:02:46):
Fantastic.

Neil Rutherford (00:02:48):
I'd always remember it.

Neil Rutherford (00:02:49):
It was two days before my eldest son's sixth birthday.

Neil Rutherford (00:02:53):
And I don't know if you guys over there had seen,

Neil Rutherford (00:02:55):
there's a program I'd seen years ago about showing me,

Neil Rutherford (00:02:58):
it's called Seven Up,

Neil Rutherford (00:02:59):
and it was show me the boy,

Neil Rutherford (00:03:00):
the child of seven,

Neil Rutherford (00:03:01):
and I'll show you the man.

Neil Rutherford (00:03:03):
And it was very much in my thinking of, right, I've still got a year,

Neil Rutherford (00:03:08):
to influence within my oldest son in terms of being a sober parent and a sober influence.

Neil Rutherford (00:03:13):
And I think that was,

Neil Rutherford (00:03:15):
along with the health changes,

Neil Rutherford (00:03:17):
kind of the final nail for me to make the change for good that time.

Rachel Casey (00:03:20):
Where was the first, I think I might have a problem with alcohol.

Neil Rutherford (00:03:26):
Yeah, try January.

Neil Rutherford (00:03:28):
You have that over there as well, yeah?

Neil Rutherford (00:03:30):
Yeah.

Neil Rutherford (00:03:30):
So I did the first one.

Neil Rutherford (00:03:32):
That was back in 2013.

Neil Rutherford (00:03:33):
So I would have been 32 at the time.

Neil Rutherford (00:03:36):
Yeah, I remember everyone else around me saying, oh, you're crazy.

Neil Rutherford (00:03:39):
You're never going to do that.

Neil Rutherford (00:03:40):
You drink all the time.

Neil Rutherford (00:03:41):
And it was very much still in our culture.

Neil Rutherford (00:03:44):
And I signed up and it was to raise for cancer awareness at the time.

Neil Rutherford (00:03:47):
So it was sort of signed up as a challenge.

Neil Rutherford (00:03:50):
And it was really hard, but I did it.

Neil Rutherford (00:03:52):
But it was very much sort of white knuckling it.

Neil Rutherford (00:03:54):
And it got to the 1st of February.

Neil Rutherford (00:03:56):
And I just drunk like a whole month worth of booze probably.

Neil Rutherford (00:03:59):
And I had to black out drunk.

Neil Rutherford (00:04:01):
But it was just my first realization of actually trying to stop.

Neil Rutherford (00:04:05):
Because from 14 up until 32, I'd just been drinking.

Neil Rutherford (00:04:10):
I wasn't every day.

Neil Rutherford (00:04:11):
I was an every other day drinker because my hangovers were also always so bad.

Neil Rutherford (00:04:16):
And then it was hangover food the next day, binge eating.

Neil Rutherford (00:04:18):
And then I'd be drinking again the day after.

Neil Rutherford (00:04:21):
I think by having a break and then realizing I struggled with it.

Neil Rutherford (00:04:23):
And then I tried a few more and I didn't always even make it through the month.

Neil Rutherford (00:04:27):
And yeah, that's when I knew I had a problem.

Rachel Casey (00:04:30):
Last October we did,

Rachel Casey (00:04:31):
we attempted to do a podcast episode a day and want a couple,

Rachel Casey (00:04:36):
like the first week I did research on dry January and I had no idea it started in

Rachel Casey (00:04:41):
the UK.

Rachel Casey (00:04:41):
Cool.

Rachel Casey (00:04:42):
Are you saying you participated in like the first one?

Rachel Casey (00:04:44):
So what about the next year?

Neil Rutherford (00:04:47):
Yeah, I did it the next year, but I didn't make it through the month.

Neil Rutherford (00:04:51):
I probably made it to like halfway.

Neil Rutherford (00:04:54):
Yeah, it was always something I tried.

Neil Rutherford (00:04:56):
But there were people on that first one who I worked with who were saying,

Neil Rutherford (00:04:59):
go on,

Neil Rutherford (00:05:00):
just have a drink.

Neil Rutherford (00:05:01):
And I was like, look, I'm raising money for charity.

Neil Rutherford (00:05:03):
And they're like, oh, well, whatever the money is, we'll pay it.

Neil Rutherford (00:05:06):
But just still to have a drink with us.

Neil Rutherford (00:05:07):
I mean,

Neil Rutherford (00:05:08):
that was the culture where I so forcefully still trying to get you involved to drink,

Neil Rutherford (00:05:12):
even when you were saying that.

Neil Rutherford (00:05:13):
Yeah, forcefully.

Rachel Casey (00:05:15):
difference of how easy people are willing to like feed that addiction and i think

Rachel Casey (00:05:19):
it's because they want someone to drink with right is so that the cost of it is

Rachel Casey (00:05:22):
that connection do you have a particular moment where seems fun but it's really

Rachel Casey (00:05:28):
internally not fun

Neil Rutherford (00:05:29):
There would be times when we were out to after parties and I worked in recruitment

Neil Rutherford (00:05:34):
at that time.

Neil Rutherford (00:05:35):
And that was before I had kids in a different life.

Neil Rutherford (00:05:38):
And we would go on sort of all weekend parties where we just didn't sleep for the whole weekend.

Neil Rutherford (00:05:44):
And we thought we were living the high life and having a great time.

Neil Rutherford (00:05:48):
But I think when those moments were over and the sort of the reality and the

Neil Rutherford (00:05:52):
hangovers kicked in on the Monday with those,

Neil Rutherford (00:05:54):
you realize you weren't.

Neil Rutherford (00:05:56):
But we just kept feeding into that and just living that life.

Neil Rutherford (00:05:59):
And then you'd be going out to the next party.

Neil Rutherford (00:06:01):
And I don't know.

Neil Rutherford (00:06:02):
I don't know how I even survived that whole period looking back now.

Rachel Casey (00:06:05):
I agree.

Neil Rutherford (00:06:06):
Because I treasure going to bed at 10 and going to sleep, particularly with kids, as you know.

Neil Rutherford (00:06:11):
But that's like the gold dust now.

Neil Rutherford (00:06:13):
Waking up fresh is beautiful.

Neil Rutherford (00:06:15):
I wouldn't trade that for anything now, but...

Rachel Casey (00:06:17):
Is there something that you've noticed getting sober when you were drinking,

Rachel Casey (00:06:22):
you thought it was totally normal,

Rachel Casey (00:06:24):
but after you got sober,

Rachel Casey (00:06:25):
you realized,

Rachel Casey (00:06:26):
what was I doing?

Rachel Casey (00:06:27):
How did I rationalize that?

Neil Rutherford (00:06:29):
Yeah,

Neil Rutherford (00:06:30):
I think all the little things,

Neil Rutherford (00:06:31):
I don't know,

Neil Rutherford (00:06:32):
even as recently as going on holiday when I was just enjoying a coffee at the airport,

Neil Rutherford (00:06:36):
but before we would just normalize,

Neil Rutherford (00:06:39):
it could be 4 a.m.

Neil Rutherford (00:06:40):
and just completely starting the drinking, then sinking the pints at the airport.

Neil Rutherford (00:06:45):
on the plane,

Neil Rutherford (00:06:46):
just completely drunk for the whole holiday,

Neil Rutherford (00:06:49):
causing all sorts of chaos and just saying it's okay,

Neil Rutherford (00:06:51):
it's a holiday thing.

Neil Rutherford (00:06:52):
Just all of life sort of just normalizing the fact that it was either drinking or

Neil Rutherford (00:06:58):
hungover or somewhere in between and not really getting to live life as you should.

Neil Rutherford (00:07:05):
Experience those real feelings and

Rachel Casey (00:07:07):
What was your first clear moment in sobriety where you were like,

Rachel Casey (00:07:10):
so this is what being present is like?

Rachel Casey (00:07:13):
Do you have a specific... I mean, mine was with my son.

Rachel Casey (00:07:16):
It was just like, wow, I didn't realize how absent I was.

Rachel Casey (00:07:20):
And if you would have told me when I was drinking,

Rachel Casey (00:07:22):
I would have been like,

Rachel Casey (00:07:23):
I'm present for my son.

Rachel Casey (00:07:24):
If I see all the things he does, I record, I take the pictures, but...

Rachel Casey (00:07:28):
It was maybe a month sober where I was watching him laugh and play and actually enjoying it.

Rachel Casey (00:07:33):
Because usually it was, can I have my drink yet?

Rachel Casey (00:07:35):
Is Colin or is my husband on the way home?

Rachel Casey (00:07:37):
I didn't really enjoy parenting when I was drinking.

Rachel Casey (00:07:41):
And now it's really fun.

Neil Rutherford (00:07:43):
It's great.

Neil Rutherford (00:07:44):
Yeah.

Neil Rutherford (00:07:45):
It's the favorite part for me.

Neil Rutherford (00:07:46):
My dad wasn't around when I was younger.

Neil Rutherford (00:07:47):
He left the house when I was two.

Neil Rutherford (00:07:50):
And so I was sort of raised by my mom and my sister was around.

Neil Rutherford (00:07:53):
But so I've always had this driving fact of wanting to be the best dad I can.

Neil Rutherford (00:07:58):
And I knew I wasn't doing that by with the drinking.

Neil Rutherford (00:08:01):
But then so now I feel like I've got the greatest gift to them to be fully present.

Neil Rutherford (00:08:06):
I'm always putting them to bed.

Neil Rutherford (00:08:07):
I walk them to school every day.

Neil Rutherford (00:08:10):
I'm lucky enough to be able to work at home.

Neil Rutherford (00:08:11):
So I'm sort of fully present with them and fully involved.

Neil Rutherford (00:08:14):
I coach my eldest son's football team now are going to be doing the same with my youngest.

Neil Rutherford (00:08:18):
And even things like that,

Neil Rutherford (00:08:19):
because we train on a Friday night and then we play games Thursday morning.

Neil Rutherford (00:08:23):
And just being able to do those things and to be fresh for those is like a gift.

Rachel Casey (00:08:27):
Have you had any parents after the game,

Rachel Casey (00:08:29):
let's go grab drinks or what do you do in those situations?

Rachel Casey (00:08:33):
How do you handle them?

Neil Rutherford (00:08:34):
Yeah,

Neil Rutherford (00:08:34):
I do find that it's been one of the challenging things because there is that

Neil Rutherford (00:08:38):
culture still within all the coaches.

Neil Rutherford (00:08:40):
They very much will still go out and have a beer.

Neil Rutherford (00:08:42):
And I'm very much in that minority of I can go and have a beer with them,

Neil Rutherford (00:08:46):
but I'll have a Heineken Zero.

Neil Rutherford (00:08:48):
And it's probably more down the sort of health route.

Neil Rutherford (00:08:52):
Where people have seen me, I've lost four stones, I've transformed my health.

Neil Rutherford (00:08:57):
So people kind of get it from that angle,

Neil Rutherford (00:08:59):
is that,

Neil Rutherford (00:09:00):
oh,

Neil Rutherford (00:09:00):
you don't drink,

Neil Rutherford (00:09:01):
you know,

Neil Rutherford (00:09:01):
more for health reasons.

Neil Rutherford (00:09:03):
But they are,

Neil Rutherford (00:09:04):
now that I've now become an alcohol-free coach as well,

Neil Rutherford (00:09:06):
and I'm helping other guys,

Neil Rutherford (00:09:07):
a lot of people do actually respect that.

Neil Rutherford (00:09:09):
But they're quick to tell me they don't have a problem.

Neil Rutherford (00:09:12):
Because there's lots of... Always.

Neil Rutherford (00:09:14):
Or they tell me that I only drink this much.

Neil Rutherford (00:09:16):
And I'm not asking for information.

Neil Rutherford (00:09:18):
But, yeah, people do almost become a little bit uncomfortable.

Neil Rutherford (00:09:22):
Once they realize I'm helping other guys who are struggling,

Neil Rutherford (00:09:25):
then that's...

Neil Rutherford (00:09:26):
You can argue with that,

Neil Rutherford (00:09:27):
right?

Rachel Casey (00:09:27):
I will...

Rachel Casey (00:09:28):
flat out say yeah i'm an alcoholic i i'll make a little joke out of it since our

Rachel Casey (00:09:33):
son is kindergarten this year we've only for the first time encountered the

Rachel Casey (00:09:37):
parenting world and it has been a little different and i have been a little more

Rachel Casey (00:09:41):
hesitant to say but then it's all over our facebook and then i have this podcast so

Rachel Casey (00:09:46):
it's i'm not ashamed of it by any means but or you have two sons are they old

Rachel Casey (00:09:50):
enough to where they've been like hey someone asked like you don't drink or do you

Rachel Casey (00:09:53):
explain it to them in that way

Neil Rutherford (00:09:55):
Yeah, my son's, my son's, my eldest son listens to a lot of podcasts anyway.

Neil Rutherford (00:09:59):
And so, and he thinks it's cool.

Neil Rutherford (00:10:01):
So he says to me, when I'm older, I want to drink Heineken Zero as well.

Neil Rutherford (00:10:05):
And setting that example, I guess.

Neil Rutherford (00:10:07):
So, and he doesn't really remember me being drunk.

Neil Rutherford (00:10:10):
That's what I was saying about the timing of, he was sort of five or six.

Neil Rutherford (00:10:13):
I think he was, he's aware, he said, it's cool that you're always around now, dad.

Neil Rutherford (00:10:17):
So he was probably aware when he was a bit younger that I wouldn't have been making

Neil Rutherford (00:10:20):
excuses to be out a bit later or whatever.

Neil Rutherford (00:10:23):
Yeah, so far, I would say, yeah, parents, Greek-wise, yeah, it's okay.

Neil Rutherford (00:10:29):
It's okay.

Neil Rutherford (00:10:31):
I did a one-year no-beer challenge as well in 2018,

Neil Rutherford (00:10:35):
and that's when I really realized I had a problem because I managed to have a year

Neil Rutherford (00:10:38):
not drinking,

Neil Rutherford (00:10:39):
and at the end of it,

Neil Rutherford (00:10:40):
I said,

Neil Rutherford (00:10:41):
well,

Neil Rutherford (00:10:41):
I can't be an alcoholic.

Neil Rutherford (00:10:43):
I can learn moderation.

Neil Rutherford (00:10:44):
And actually, that's when I was in my worst ever period.

Neil Rutherford (00:10:46):
Because I was trying to quit for three years after that, and I couldn't.

Neil Rutherford (00:10:50):
It was really scary.

Neil Rutherford (00:10:51):
And that's when I wanted to start to have a drink earlier.

Neil Rutherford (00:10:53):
Because I always said, if I have a drink at midday, then I'm not an alcoholic.

Neil Rutherford (00:10:56):
You make all these rules in your head, right?

Neil Rutherford (00:10:58):
And that's why I wanted to become an alcohol-free coach.

Neil Rutherford (00:11:00):
Because I went to AA, and it wasn't quite for me.

Neil Rutherford (00:11:03):
I didn't sort of last the program.

Neil Rutherford (00:11:05):
And I felt there weren't other options out there in terms of community and

Neil Rutherford (00:11:09):
And so that's when I found an alcohol-free coach who helped me change sort of

Neil Rutherford (00:11:13):
mindset and having a community.

Neil Rutherford (00:11:15):
And that's what I just rediscovered my passion is to be a coach,

Neil Rutherford (00:11:19):
trained as a coach in that area.

Neil Rutherford (00:11:20):
And then so almost help as an alternative to AA.

Neil Rutherford (00:11:23):
Obviously, AA is amazing.

Neil Rutherford (00:11:24):
It does great things, but it's about having options out there for people, isn't it?

Rachel Casey (00:11:29):
Oh, absolutely.

Rachel Casey (00:11:29):
Yeah, we don't believe that there's one right way.

Rachel Casey (00:11:31):
It's whatever works for the person.

Neil Rutherford (00:11:34):
Yeah,

Neil Rutherford (00:11:35):
and a lot of the clients I've had already,

Neil Rutherford (00:11:37):
and I've helped a lot of guys go alcohol-free this year.

Neil Rutherford (00:11:40):
So they're all sort of three months alcohol-free, sober, so far.

Neil Rutherford (00:11:43):
They all said to me, AA wasn't quite for me, but I was looking for something else.

Neil Rutherford (00:11:47):
I want to quit drinking.

Neil Rutherford (00:11:48):
So they're coming to me, they want to quit.

Neil Rutherford (00:11:50):
And then it's working then as a one-on-one coach,

Neil Rutherford (00:11:52):
as a group coach,

Neil Rutherford (00:11:53):
daily check-ins with me,

Neil Rutherford (00:11:55):
lots of mindset stuff that I'm working on with.

Rachel Casey (00:11:57):
And then you said you work with men because in the AA world,

Rachel Casey (00:12:00):
I do know,

Rachel Casey (00:12:01):
again,

Rachel Casey (00:12:02):
everything's a suggestion.

Neil Rutherford (00:12:04):
Sure.

Rachel Casey (00:12:04):
But it is suggested women with women, men with men.

Rachel Casey (00:12:07):
Have you had any females reach out wanting you to coach?

Neil Rutherford (00:12:10):
So I had.

Neil Rutherford (00:12:10):
I did coach a couple.

Neil Rutherford (00:12:12):
But I think it was more around having a niche.

Neil Rutherford (00:12:15):
I know that there's guys out there that just don't want to talk.

Neil Rutherford (00:12:18):
about stuff and they're a bit more resistant to that.

Neil Rutherford (00:12:21):
And I think there was a lot of women in the industry for that who were helping

Neil Rutherford (00:12:26):
other women and men,

Neil Rutherford (00:12:28):
even like the health problems that they've had around drinking that they're solving,

Neil Rutherford (00:12:31):
where they've even been scared to go to the doctor.

Neil Rutherford (00:12:34):
just because they're being typical men and not trying to sort of talk through the problems.

Neil Rutherford (00:12:38):
So I think by being that beacon,

Neil Rutherford (00:12:40):
the way I coach and the way I help people,

Neil Rutherford (00:12:42):
of course,

Neil Rutherford (00:12:42):
it's open to anyone.

Neil Rutherford (00:12:44):
And also my men's stands for mindset, exercise, nutrition, sleep.

Neil Rutherford (00:12:47):
So it's like the four pillars of...

Rachel Casey (00:12:49):
As a coach, the funniest or most unexpected questions you've been asked.

Rachel Casey (00:12:53):
I can tell you mine for my sponsor.

Rachel Casey (00:12:56):
I was newly sober and I had asked, what do they do in Colorado?

Rachel Casey (00:13:01):
Because weed is legal there.

Rachel Casey (00:13:03):
So in my head, because it's legal, you're allowed to do it.

Rachel Casey (00:13:06):
What if I just need to go back to smoking or maybe I can't handle alcohol, but I can have weed?

Rachel Casey (00:13:11):
And she looked at me and she's just like, you realize alcohol is legal, right?

Rachel Casey (00:13:15):
And just because it's legal,

Rachel Casey (00:13:17):
any substance you put in your body that's mind altering is not sober.

Rachel Casey (00:13:23):
In my mind,

Rachel Casey (00:13:23):
I don't know why I thought it being legal changed the stance of anything because

Rachel Casey (00:13:29):
it's still weed.

Rachel Casey (00:13:30):
We will laugh about that, that I'm just like, what do they do out there?

Rachel Casey (00:13:34):
And it's the same AA meetings.

Neil Rutherford (00:13:36):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Neil Rutherford (00:13:37):
I had a client yesterday that was saying,

Neil Rutherford (00:13:38):
look,

Neil Rutherford (00:13:39):
I know I can't drink,

Neil Rutherford (00:13:40):
but can I still have wine with dinner?

Neil Rutherford (00:13:42):
Yeah.

Neil Rutherford (00:13:45):
Like, that's okay.

Neil Rutherford (00:13:47):
And I guess you've seen all the questions and heard all the angles.

Neil Rutherford (00:13:51):
I think at that stage, people are still putting it on a pedestal a little bit, aren't they?

Neil Rutherford (00:13:55):
Because you can obviously have a nice dinner without it.

Neil Rutherford (00:13:57):
And it's an education piece because a lot of people have,

Neil Rutherford (00:14:01):
as I had,

Neil Rutherford (00:14:02):
when you've drunk for 30 years,

Neil Rutherford (00:14:04):
you've almost attached it to everything,

Neil Rutherford (00:14:05):
haven't you?

Neil Rutherford (00:14:06):
It starts off with celebration.

Neil Rutherford (00:14:08):
But for me, in the end, it was very much me drinking on my own anyway, in secrecy.

Rachel Casey (00:14:12):
So is your wife in the program?

Neil Rutherford (00:14:14):
No.

Neil Rutherford (00:14:15):
So my first wife probably would have been, I think we were drinking each other under the table.

Neil Rutherford (00:14:20):
My wife now, she, I met her 10 years ago.

Neil Rutherford (00:14:23):
She,

Neil Rutherford (00:14:23):
she really helped me,

Neil Rutherford (00:14:24):
but she's one of the people I say,

Neil Rutherford (00:14:27):
if it's normal,

Neil Rutherford (00:14:28):
it's a,

Neil Rutherford (00:14:28):
she can have one or two,

Neil Rutherford (00:14:29):
but she's never got drunk.

Neil Rutherford (00:14:31):
She doesn't like, she, she could have asked for a drink.

Neil Rutherford (00:14:34):
And if they don't have that drink, she'll just order a soft drink.

Neil Rutherford (00:14:36):
So yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:14:37):
And that's crazy.

Rachel Casey (00:14:38):
They don't get madder.

Rachel Casey (00:14:40):
I'd be like, they don't have a drink, so what are we going to do before, after?

Rachel Casey (00:14:44):
We've got to have backup plans.

Rachel Casey (00:14:45):
We bring our own.

(00:14:46):
No, of course, yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:14:48):
That was another thing in early sobriety.

Rachel Casey (00:14:50):
We didn't realize how we looked at the drink menu before the food at a restaurant.

Rachel Casey (00:14:56):
And it wasn't until we got sober that we're like, that's probably not normal.

Rachel Casey (00:14:59):
Most people just go to a bin and if they decide they want to have a glass of wine, fine.

Rachel Casey (00:15:04):
Or...

Rachel Casey (00:15:05):
we would first thing drinks i don't care about the food menu drinks and it's like

Rachel Casey (00:15:09):
yeah yeah yeah we're there to fuel our body not like to eat a dinner have a nice

Rachel Casey (00:15:13):
meal and connect and instead we're immediately trying to escape i've noticed now

Neil Rutherford (00:15:17):
like one of the pleasures of eating out is that the food bill is now half the price

Neil Rutherford (00:15:21):
because i know how much we're spending before is absolutely nuts

Rachel Casey (00:15:25):
first time we went out to a nice dinner and we got the bill, we thought it was the wrong table.

Rachel Casey (00:15:28):
We were like, this was not us.

Rachel Casey (00:15:29):
And we easily got five rounds, if not more.

Rachel Casey (00:15:35):
And I don't, I worked in the service industry.

Rachel Casey (00:15:38):
And I think that was one of the things that hindered me because I worked in fine

Rachel Casey (00:15:43):
dining and a lot of people did start their day drinking.

Rachel Casey (00:15:45):
Like they would have

Rachel Casey (00:15:47):
high-end sophisticated people and they're having a drinking business lunch and at

Rachel Casey (00:15:52):
all hours of the day to night and we get off working hammered that was just kind of

Rachel Casey (00:15:56):
the life and I thought I could be since I saw people again we don't really see them

Rachel Casey (00:16:02):
I see them for 45 minutes of a meal but you could still be successful it's not like

Rachel Casey (00:16:06):
I saw people that were drinking that were homeless and it it was very high

Rachel Casey (00:16:11):
functioning people that I was around

Neil Rutherford (00:16:14):
I mean, I was always, always drinking and always making money.

Rachel Casey (00:16:18):
So what's your favorite part about this alcohol free warrior being a sober coach?

Neil Rutherford (00:16:24):
It's given me a purpose in life because I worked in recruitment for 20 years and I

Neil Rutherford (00:16:28):
was good at that,

Neil Rutherford (00:16:29):
making money in that.

Neil Rutherford (00:16:30):
But because I was drinking all the time, I never really thought about what I wanted to do.

Neil Rutherford (00:16:34):
And it was in my second year of sobriety when I finally had some clarity about what

Neil Rutherford (00:16:39):
I wanted to do.

Neil Rutherford (00:16:40):
And then I saw my whole journey as a gift,

Neil Rutherford (00:16:42):
is that someone who had a massive drinking problem,

Neil Rutherford (00:16:44):
who was overweight,

Neil Rutherford (00:16:45):
health problems,

Neil Rutherford (00:16:46):
and had managed to stop that.

Neil Rutherford (00:16:48):
Because I do speak to a lot of people that just say, well, I can never stop drinking.

Neil Rutherford (00:16:52):
And I think when you give people examples and then show them away,

Neil Rutherford (00:16:56):
lead by example,

Neil Rutherford (00:16:57):
and then show them communities,

Neil Rutherford (00:16:59):
it's just given me a sense of purpose.

Neil Rutherford (00:17:01):
I really love what I do.

Neil Rutherford (00:17:02):
I love helping other guys.

Neil Rutherford (00:17:04):
Yeah,

Neil Rutherford (00:17:04):
it's only early days still,

Neil Rutherford (00:17:05):
but I think as a market,

Neil Rutherford (00:17:08):
I mean,

Neil Rutherford (00:17:09):
even what you guys have got a great podcast and I think I'm hoping there'll be more

Neil Rutherford (00:17:12):
out there.

Neil Rutherford (00:17:13):
It does still feel early days and a whole sort of alcohol.

Neil Rutherford (00:17:17):
They're almost changing.

Neil Rutherford (00:17:18):
I don't know what it's like over there,

Neil Rutherford (00:17:19):
but they're almost calling it more alcohol free now rather than sober over here as

Neil Rutherford (00:17:24):
more of a trend.

Neil Rutherford (00:17:26):
And whether that's catching middle lane drinkers or what they would call problem drinkers.

Rachel Casey (00:17:30):
I don't know.

Rachel Casey (00:17:31):
Some people do get caught on the word sober sometimes.

Rachel Casey (00:17:34):
I don't quite know why.

Rachel Casey (00:17:37):
The order would be the most caught up word is alcoholic or alcoholism,

Rachel Casey (00:17:41):
then sober,

Rachel Casey (00:17:42):
then alcohol free.

Rachel Casey (00:17:46):
This is where Colin and I disagree.

Rachel Casey (00:17:48):
In sobriety, we learn like we can disagree and the world does not have to end.

Rachel Casey (00:17:52):
But when I was drinking, I had to hammer my point.

Rachel Casey (00:17:55):
And if I did not win, like I wouldn't let it go.

Rachel Casey (00:17:58):
It's like the 12 angry men.

Rachel Casey (00:18:00):
But any label of a can that says alcohol free.

Rachel Casey (00:18:03):
And then it says less than 0.05.

Rachel Casey (00:18:06):
It makes me a little angry because I'm like, that's technically not alcohol-free.

Rachel Casey (00:18:09):
Like you wouldn't offer a peanut-free bar and be like,

Rachel Casey (00:18:12):
well,

Rachel Casey (00:18:12):
it has 0.05 less peanuts than the normal one.

Rachel Casey (00:18:16):
It's like, oh, that would be...

Rachel Casey (00:18:18):
And I guess so I'm also not arguing saying that 0.05 will like trigger some relapse

Rachel Casey (00:18:25):
or and I get it.

Rachel Casey (00:18:26):
And my husband does drink those non-alcoholic ones.

Rachel Casey (00:18:29):
I just feel like it's not fair to put alcohol free label on them because

Rachel Casey (00:18:32):
technically it's not free of alcohol.

Rachel Casey (00:18:34):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:18:35):
And Heineken zero is.

Rachel Casey (00:18:37):
Heineken zero is 0.0.

Rachel Casey (00:18:40):
And I don't want to like name,

Rachel Casey (00:18:42):
call anyone out,

Rachel Casey (00:18:42):
but it does make me very irritated that it says alcohol free.

Rachel Casey (00:18:46):
And then it says less than 0.05.

Rachel Casey (00:18:49):
I think we're really misunderstanding what alcohol free means.

Rachel Casey (00:18:53):
It's like that same person who says, can I still have wine with dinner?

Rachel Casey (00:18:57):
It's like, well, that would be drinking.

Neil Rutherford (00:18:59):
There's another thing with the food, isn't there?

Neil Rutherford (00:19:01):
Because some dishes will put some alcohol in,

Neil Rutherford (00:19:03):
which I've had to keep an eye out for as well,

Neil Rutherford (00:19:05):
which can be tricky in a dessert or something.

Rachel Casey (00:19:07):
So food wise, this is all personal.

Rachel Casey (00:19:09):
I don't care if it's fine.

Rachel Casey (00:19:11):
I've had people say like they drink a non-alcoholic drink.

Rachel Casey (00:19:14):
Like my husband will have one and it doesn't trigger him to want eight.

Rachel Casey (00:19:19):
If you're drinking eight 0.05 non-alcoholic beers, you can still get a little buzz from it.

Rachel Casey (00:19:26):
It's an unhealthy behavior.

Neil Rutherford (00:19:27):
After two or if I have two or three ironing zeros, I'm actually full.

Neil Rutherford (00:19:31):
So I physically can't drink anymore, whereas two or three was the start of my session before.

Rachel Casey (00:19:36):
Exactly.

Rachel Casey (00:19:36):
And if you are someone who drinks, I'm not trying to be off-putting.

Rachel Casey (00:19:40):
It's just I just feel like it's a little bit of a false label.

Rachel Casey (00:19:45):
But I do like that we're heading in the direction that it is still better than the

Rachel Casey (00:19:49):
full percentage.

Rachel Casey (00:19:50):
So it's a little murky waters there.

Rachel Casey (00:19:53):
But yeah, with the food.

Rachel Casey (00:19:55):
So what I was going to say, pastas, for example, alcohol is cooked out.

Rachel Casey (00:19:59):
I have a big, big culinary background.

Rachel Casey (00:20:01):
I probably wouldn't do like the baked Alaska light on fire because I don't know

Rachel Casey (00:20:07):
that all the alcohol is cooked out,

Rachel Casey (00:20:09):
at least or how that it depends on how it's cooked.

Rachel Casey (00:20:11):
I wouldn't.

Rachel Casey (00:20:12):
I still stay away from like the whiskey barbecue sauces unless I know it's cooked out.

Rachel Casey (00:20:17):
I still do stay away from the alcoholic.

Neil Rutherford (00:20:18):
I mentioned it because I was at a restaurant the other day and I tasted it this

Neil Rutherford (00:20:22):
dessert and instantly it was like oh and I and then I asked and they said so

Neil Rutherford (00:20:27):
there's something in it and I didn't want it so but it's interesting because it's

Neil Rutherford (00:20:31):
even that response it wasn't like oh I tasted some I need some more it was it was I

Neil Rutherford (00:20:36):
taste it for what it is which is a poison really

Rachel Casey (00:20:38):
I think it was our first or second year sober.

Rachel Casey (00:20:40):
One of Colin's parents,

Rachel Casey (00:20:42):
because they travel overseas quite often,

Rachel Casey (00:20:44):
and they brought back chocolates.

Rachel Casey (00:20:46):
And they were liquor chocolates.

Rachel Casey (00:20:48):
And I was like, we can't have these.

Rachel Casey (00:20:50):
And I read it before,

Rachel Casey (00:20:51):
because as an alcoholic,

Rachel Casey (00:20:53):
I think there's a hyper-awareness to like...

Rachel Casey (00:20:55):
And which is so weird.

Rachel Casey (00:20:56):
Like you said before, you're out seeking that drink, and now I'm like...

Rachel Casey (00:21:00):
double checking it doesn't have alcohol and of course the first thing i see is

Rachel Casey (00:21:06):
alcohol chocolate and they're like i didn't even see that and i'm like well you're

Rachel Casey (00:21:10):
probably not looking for it you're probably excited when you get home and realize

Rachel Casey (00:21:14):
they're alcohol chocolates where that would kill colin and i essentially i mean

Neil Rutherford (00:21:20):
alcohol free space seems to really explode over here and gained a lot more

Neil Rutherford (00:21:24):
popularity

Rachel Casey (00:21:26):
Well, I bought up a lot of alcohol-free domains.

Rachel Casey (00:21:28):
So I was like,

Rachel Casey (00:21:29):
I went on a little,

Rachel Casey (00:21:30):
when I was looking for Sober Banter,

Rachel Casey (00:21:33):
like I have,

Rachel Casey (00:21:34):
I own alcoholfreenetwork.com.

Rachel Casey (00:21:36):
Like I went in,

Rachel Casey (00:21:37):
because I wasn't,

Rachel Casey (00:21:38):
there was a part of me that did kind of,

Rachel Casey (00:21:40):
I mean,

Rachel Casey (00:21:40):
Sober Banter was,

Rachel Casey (00:21:42):
we struggled naming the podcast.

Rachel Casey (00:21:43):
It actually started as Sober Synergy.

Rachel Casey (00:21:45):
First it started as Sober Marriage, which I also have SoberMarriage.com.

Rachel Casey (00:21:49):
Then it was Sober Synergy.

Rachel Casey (00:21:51):
Sober banter.

Rachel Casey (00:21:52):
And now I've had alcohol free network, which I might put it under the umbrella.

Rachel Casey (00:21:56):
But yeah, it's hard.

Rachel Casey (00:21:57):
What would you say it's like being I know starting a podcast?

Rachel Casey (00:22:01):
It's a lot of work.

Rachel Casey (00:22:02):
And I know that running a business of alcohol free company,

Rachel Casey (00:22:06):
like how do you delegate your time and how do you find space to kind of

Neil Rutherford (00:22:10):
Yeah, I do struggle with this, but I also feel like drinking for me was a second job.

Neil Rutherford (00:22:16):
So like I worked, but then all my other spare time was around.

Neil Rutherford (00:22:20):
Even my headspace is like, when can I get my next drink or wishing I hadn't had my drink?

Neil Rutherford (00:22:25):
So so it has actually freed up more time.

Neil Rutherford (00:22:27):
And then I need something else to do anyway.

Neil Rutherford (00:22:30):
So I like to be busy.

Neil Rutherford (00:22:31):
So I've got my day job where I run my recruitment business,

Neil Rutherford (00:22:35):
but then so all my spare time is doing the coaching around the family as well.

Neil Rutherford (00:22:41):
So I just find a way.

Neil Rutherford (00:22:43):
Long-term,

Neil Rutherford (00:22:44):
like eventually one day I can sort of step away from the recruitment stuff and then

Neil Rutherford (00:22:49):
make the alcohol-free coaching like full-time business.

Neil Rutherford (00:22:52):
But because it's a passion,

Neil Rutherford (00:22:54):
You know, there's that thing, isn't there?

Neil Rutherford (00:22:56):
And it's the same way with the AA program.

Neil Rutherford (00:22:58):
I believe it's like by helping others, you help yourself.

Neil Rutherford (00:23:01):
And I think in terms of being a sponsor or I get like I'm coaching and mentoring these guys.

Neil Rutherford (00:23:08):
And some of them are probably maybe earlier on in their journey.

Neil Rutherford (00:23:11):
And if I'm catching them earlier,

Neil Rutherford (00:23:13):
because we always grade this thing out of a 10,

Neil Rutherford (00:23:15):
like if a 10 is your physical alcoholic.

Neil Rutherford (00:23:18):
that there's different treatments you need at that stage and a zero somewhere you

Neil Rutherford (00:23:23):
don't drink at all but in between i'd say i was like a lane nine and like there's

Neil Rutherford (00:23:27):
lots of guys around those sort of higher lanes there's lots of people still in the

Neil Rutherford (00:23:31):
middle lane who can take it or leave it but they're just it's that sober awareness

Neil Rutherford (00:23:34):
and the people are like having a break from alcohol for three months and going oh

Neil Rutherford (00:23:38):
actually i feel pretty good uh sleeping better my exercise better i'm eating right

Neil Rutherford (00:23:43):
and so the life's better but they just didn't know about it and

Neil Rutherford (00:23:46):
That's a whole other angle around this whole space, which excites me, I think.

Rachel Casey (00:23:49):
How did you kind of get sober?

Rachel Casey (00:23:50):
Did you go quiet?

Rachel Casey (00:23:52):
Did you tell people?

Neil Rutherford (00:23:53):
I did a mixture.

Neil Rutherford (00:23:54):
I went to a few AA meetings.

Neil Rutherford (00:23:57):
I explained to everyone in my network that I went to work.

Neil Rutherford (00:24:02):
I said, I have a problem.

Neil Rutherford (00:24:04):
I'm going to AA.

Neil Rutherford (00:24:05):
My wife was supportive.

Neil Rutherford (00:24:06):
So I kind of told everyone I needed to.

Neil Rutherford (00:24:08):
And then I also bunkered down.

Neil Rutherford (00:24:10):
I didn't want to go out and put myself in situations.

Neil Rutherford (00:24:13):
I cut off some old friends.

Neil Rutherford (00:24:14):
It's almost like a divorce.

Neil Rutherford (00:24:16):
But then you realize who your real friends were and who were drinking buddies.

Neil Rutherford (00:24:19):
And I sort of just got through that first year, did what I had to do.

Neil Rutherford (00:24:23):
And then the second year was when I found out about this alcohol-free coaching course.

Neil Rutherford (00:24:27):
I could do this diploma and study to be a coach to help others.

Neil Rutherford (00:24:30):
And then that instantly was like, yeah, that's me.

Neil Rutherford (00:24:33):
Like 100%, that's what I want to do.

Neil Rutherford (00:24:34):
I want to help others.

Neil Rutherford (00:24:35):
And so I say by keeping busy and having a purpose...

Neil Rutherford (00:24:39):
That's just kept me on that track.

Neil Rutherford (00:24:41):
So it's not even like 1% I'd ever think about going back to our life now.

Neil Rutherford (00:24:45):
So I don't miss it.

Neil Rutherford (00:24:47):
There were some,

Neil Rutherford (00:24:48):
and I'm sorry if I have any sort of funnier stories at the top of my mind,

Neil Rutherford (00:24:51):
maybe for another follow-up,

Neil Rutherford (00:24:53):
because there were times when I did enjoy stages of my drinking career,

Neil Rutherford (00:24:57):
but on the whole,

Neil Rutherford (00:24:58):
it wasn't great.

Neil Rutherford (00:25:00):
And in the end, it caused me a lot of pain.

Rachel Casey (00:25:02):
The things that we thought we were having like this blast,

Rachel Casey (00:25:06):
we really realized just it really wasn't that great.

Rachel Casey (00:25:09):
We really glorified probably the buildup.

Rachel Casey (00:25:13):
And we don't talk about we were just a few months sober and watching these beer commercials.

Rachel Casey (00:25:19):
I don't and I don't know how celebrated the Super Bowl is in the UK,

Rachel Casey (00:25:21):
but American football,

Rachel Casey (00:25:23):
because I think when you say you're coaching football,

Rachel Casey (00:25:25):
you mean soccer.

(00:25:25):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:25:26):
We would joke that they'd have this clip and then we're like, we want to see the fast forward.

Rachel Casey (00:25:32):
We want to see where they're like arguing with their wife,

Rachel Casey (00:25:36):
with their broken glass all over the floor.

Rachel Casey (00:25:39):
The baby's crying like we don't get to see that where we wake up and check our

Rachel Casey (00:25:43):
negative bank accounts.

Rachel Casey (00:25:45):
They don't show that part of the commercial.

Rachel Casey (00:25:46):
They just show the camaraderie in that small window.

Rachel Casey (00:25:50):
of like 10 minutes of fun before it becomes unfun.

Rachel Casey (00:25:53):
Cause I like to do like six shots back to back.

Rachel Casey (00:25:55):
I wanted to go fast.

Neil Rutherford (00:25:57):
yeah yeah you've just given me an idea for some content because it is that play it

Neil Rutherford (00:26:02):
forward what what really happens not the and then it's the nostalgia isn't it when

Neil Rutherford (00:26:06):
you're remembering that one good time maybe you had but then the other hundred

Neil Rutherford (00:26:10):
weren't any good and you're always trying to chase the first time it was the people

Rachel Casey (00:26:14):
i was surrounded with and the mindset and they the build-up was that it was fun

Rachel Casey (00:26:19):
exciting and in sobriety i look back i'm like that'd be mortifying

Neil Rutherford (00:26:24):
Even like you say,

Neil Rutherford (00:26:25):
people would sort of tell,

Neil Rutherford (00:26:26):
you tell each other your war stories as like something to be proud of,

Neil Rutherford (00:26:29):
right?

Neil Rutherford (00:26:30):
It was like that badge of honor.

Neil Rutherford (00:26:31):
And I don't know how much you've come across it as well,

Neil Rutherford (00:26:34):
but a lot of my stuff was intertwined with drugs,

Neil Rutherford (00:26:37):
unfortunately,

Neil Rutherford (00:26:38):
because it was,

Neil Rutherford (00:26:39):
I grew up in a cocaine culture.

Rachel Casey (00:26:41):
I was like,

Rachel Casey (00:26:42):
yeah,

Rachel Casey (00:26:42):
alcohol was definitely my drug of choice,

Rachel Casey (00:26:45):
but I couldn't stay awake while drinking.

Rachel Casey (00:26:48):
So it came to the point where we had to introduce uppers because that was a way

Rachel Casey (00:26:53):
that we could drink more and we could stay awake.

Rachel Casey (00:26:56):
And it was also it became very social.

Neil Rutherford (00:26:59):
Because it creates like a third substance when you mix alcohol with cocaine.

Neil Rutherford (00:27:04):
And I think that's what I was really addicted to in the end.

Neil Rutherford (00:27:06):
Because it got to the point where I didn't just want to be drunk or I'd never

Neil Rutherford (00:27:09):
touched cocaine on its own.

Neil Rutherford (00:27:11):
But it was like those two combined.

Rachel Casey (00:27:13):
Well, it helped me drink more.

Rachel Casey (00:27:14):
I was able to last longer.

Rachel Casey (00:27:16):
I wasn't able to pass out.

Rachel Casey (00:27:18):
And I would black out maybe a little easier.

Rachel Casey (00:27:20):
But I was still able to function and be around.

Rachel Casey (00:27:24):
And they're like, Rachel's not passed out drunk on the couch.

Rachel Casey (00:27:27):
I could stay awake.

Neil Rutherford (00:27:29):
I even had moments when I had to call the ambulance because I thought I was having

Neil Rutherford (00:27:32):
a heart attack.

Neil Rutherford (00:27:33):
It was getting to that stage for me.

Neil Rutherford (00:27:35):
But even after it was all calmed down and they'd gone,

Neil Rutherford (00:27:37):
now I'm still trying to think about having another line because I felt better.

Neil Rutherford (00:27:40):
So that was the scary part of the addiction.

Rachel Casey (00:27:44):
And I did learn the brain MRIs of cocaine for someone who's done it before.

Rachel Casey (00:27:53):
You just see a picture of it and it lights up your entire brain as if you just partook in it.

Rachel Casey (00:28:00):
And but then they showed a picture of cocaine to someone who's never done cocaine before.

Rachel Casey (00:28:05):
And it was nothing really happened.

Rachel Casey (00:28:07):
And it's like that's how powerful that drug is,

Rachel Casey (00:28:09):
is that for even just a picture,

Rachel Casey (00:28:11):
seeing it in movies,

Rachel Casey (00:28:13):
it can fire up like the dopamine receptor.

Neil Rutherford (00:28:15):
I used to be, it was the excitement of getting it.

Neil Rutherford (00:28:18):
And then there was many times when I'd had it and I'd throw it away because I knew,

Neil Rutherford (00:28:21):
because it was making me ill.

Neil Rutherford (00:28:24):
But it was like, it was that chase to get it.

Neil Rutherford (00:28:26):
And every time I went for a beer,

Neil Rutherford (00:28:28):
I honestly thought even to the end,

Neil Rutherford (00:28:30):
every time,

Neil Rutherford (00:28:30):
this time I'll just have two beers and that'll be it.

Neil Rutherford (00:28:33):
Like the brain ever switch from that until you just know by not having the first

Neil Rutherford (00:28:38):
one is the best one.

Neil Rutherford (00:28:39):
Because then you don't have to have that battle with,

Neil Rutherford (00:28:41):
like moderation is for people that have always moderated.

Neil Rutherford (00:28:44):
I don't think

Neil Rutherford (00:28:45):
You can learn moderation if you had a problem.

Neil Rutherford (00:28:48):
But a lot of people still battle with that.

Rachel Casey (00:28:50):
That's where the psychology part of it comes in.

Rachel Casey (00:28:53):
And you learn about the cycle of how the rationalizing works and how it goes into

Rachel Casey (00:28:59):
the machine wash,

Rachel Casey (00:29:01):
if you will,

Rachel Casey (00:29:01):
of just continuing on and on tomorrow,

Rachel Casey (00:29:04):
tomorrow or next time or this time or until you kind of come to your point of this

Rachel Casey (00:29:10):
isn't going to be a next time over there.

Rachel Casey (00:29:12):
I guess I just rip.

Neil Rutherford (00:29:13):
Yeah.

Neil Rutherford (00:29:14):
But it is in our culture, right?

Neil Rutherford (00:29:15):
And a bit like,

Neil Rutherford (00:29:17):
so the guy that coached me was saying,

Neil Rutherford (00:29:18):
if you look at smoking and how that was everywhere 50 years ago,

Neil Rutherford (00:29:22):
doctors were smoking,

Neil Rutherford (00:29:23):
etc.

Neil Rutherford (00:29:24):
I hope alcohol would get to that point where it isn't so readily advertised

Neil Rutherford (00:29:28):
everywhere and still sort of accepted.

Neil Rutherford (00:29:31):
But we see, because we've got kids and you're thinking about the next generation, right?

Neil Rutherford (00:29:35):
And although I see a lot of the youngsters now that I talk to,

Neil Rutherford (00:29:37):
they're not as fussed about drinking as maybe we were in my generation.

Rachel Casey (00:29:43):
Yeah, my son's, he's 100% one of us and he has two.

Rachel Casey (00:29:48):
I mean, I'm fourth or fifth generation alcoholic, some sober, some not.

Rachel Casey (00:29:53):
But even the other day, he's like...

Rachel Casey (00:29:56):
I want one piece of cookie dough, five.

Rachel Casey (00:29:58):
He goes, no, I want a hundred.

Rachel Casey (00:30:00):
And I was like, yeah, buddy, I get it.

Rachel Casey (00:30:03):
Like there is never enough to fill the void of it.

Rachel Casey (00:30:06):
It's just more, more, more, more.

Rachel Casey (00:30:08):
And it's just a personality thing.

Rachel Casey (00:30:10):
And thankfully, we're aware of it at an early stage.

Rachel Casey (00:30:13):
So we talk him through it because honestly, we've told him we're learning with him.

Rachel Casey (00:30:16):
But we're also I tell him I have impulse control and now he's five.

Rachel Casey (00:30:21):
But and I make amends to him and I do.

Rachel Casey (00:30:24):
And if I snap, I do get to show him that we can correct our wrong.

Rachel Casey (00:30:30):
We can take deep breaths.

Rachel Casey (00:30:31):
We can meditate.

Rachel Casey (00:30:32):
We can walk away when we get angry.

Rachel Casey (00:30:34):
And we would have never been able to do that.

Rachel Casey (00:30:37):
It's hard because it's different to show up and learn this navigation.

Rachel Casey (00:30:41):
And there's not as many sober parents out there to talk it through.

Neil Rutherford (00:30:45):
Parenting is hard, right?

Neil Rutherford (00:30:46):
It's the hardest thing I've ever done.

Neil Rutherford (00:30:48):
I mean, since we had our second son, he's a very different character and it is tough work.

Neil Rutherford (00:30:52):
But then you're right.

Neil Rutherford (00:30:53):
I do try and remind myself just to be grateful that I'm here to be sober,

Neil Rutherford (00:30:57):
to be a good parent at the end of the day.

Neil Rutherford (00:30:59):
So I joined a health club here and I go to,

Neil Rutherford (00:31:02):
because I'm lucky enough to work at home,

Neil Rutherford (00:31:03):
I go to the gym every lunchtime.

Neil Rutherford (00:31:05):
And that was my...

Neil Rutherford (00:31:07):
Even if it's just the spa, not actually in the gym, but in the sauna, in the cold plunge.

Neil Rutherford (00:31:11):
And that's my meditation.

Neil Rutherford (00:31:12):
That's my relaxing, take away the stress.

Neil Rutherford (00:31:15):
And that's been hugely important.

Rachel Casey (00:31:16):
After celebrating one year, I started getting really sick and I've had autoimmune sets.

Rachel Casey (00:31:22):
And so and I get very angry because I'm like, I'm sober.

Rachel Casey (00:31:26):
I'm not drinking.

Rachel Casey (00:31:27):
I'm not doing the drugs like and people tell me you can reverse it and whatnot.

Rachel Casey (00:31:31):
Some of my doctors do wonder.

Rachel Casey (00:31:34):
Was this something I was masking with the drinking?

Rachel Casey (00:31:36):
Was I dealing with some of these autoimmune problems?

Rachel Casey (00:31:39):
And at first, my body was just thankful I'm not pouring liquor on top of it.

Rachel Casey (00:31:43):
And so my numbers look better.

Rachel Casey (00:31:45):
But eventually, because it's like rheumatoid arthritis, it's a crisis.

Rachel Casey (00:31:51):
And how did you reverse?

Rachel Casey (00:31:53):
Because you talk about reversing.

Neil Rutherford (00:31:55):
Yeah, so I did.

Neil Rutherford (00:31:56):
I reversed the diabetes, gout, liver disease, diverticulitis, anxiety, depression.

Neil Rutherford (00:32:03):
So I kind of went 90% plant-based with my diet as well as the not drink.

Rachel Casey (00:32:07):
What made you do that?

Neil Rutherford (00:32:09):
I just threw... I saw a documentary by someone called Dr. Michael Greger.

Neil Rutherford (00:32:16):
He was like... He just did one of these presentations.

Neil Rutherford (00:32:19):
It just hit home with me where...

Neil Rutherford (00:32:21):
there was like 10 different things.

Neil Rutherford (00:32:22):
And he just said by going plant-based,

Neil Rutherford (00:32:25):
because essentially it is eating just real foods because the market is just flooded

Neil Rutherford (00:32:28):
with UPF ultra-priced food now.

Neil Rutherford (00:32:31):
And I think it just... And then also I've been fasting.

Neil Rutherford (00:32:34):
So like I might not...

Neil Rutherford (00:32:35):
I'll have my tea and coffee in the day and I might just have like one or two meals

Neil Rutherford (00:32:38):
a bit later on because I understood there's a lot of health benefits with that as well.

Neil Rutherford (00:32:42):
So I think...

Neil Rutherford (00:32:43):
By eating the real foods,

Neil Rutherford (00:32:45):
mostly plants,

Neil Rutherford (00:32:46):
fasting,

Neil Rutherford (00:32:46):
and then getting rid of the drinking,

Neil Rutherford (00:32:48):
and then adding in all the lifestyle medicine,

Neil Rutherford (00:32:50):
exercising,

Neil Rutherford (00:32:52):
lots of walking,

Neil Rutherford (00:32:53):
the saunas,

Neil Rutherford (00:32:53):
the cold plungers,

Neil Rutherford (00:32:55):
all of those going together.

Neil Rutherford (00:32:56):
It might not just be one thing.

Neil Rutherford (00:32:58):
It's just doing everything you can, right?

Neil Rutherford (00:33:00):
And then still, when you're having a bad day, you're like...

Neil Rutherford (00:33:02):
But look, I'm doing this.

Neil Rutherford (00:33:03):
I'm not drinking.

Neil Rutherford (00:33:04):
I'm doing this.

Rachel Casey (00:33:05):
I know.

Rachel Casey (00:33:05):
And it becomes a cop out at some point where I'm just like, I haven't been drinking.

Rachel Casey (00:33:10):
And I don't really think too much about like drinking.

Neil Rutherford (00:33:14):
Even the health club I go to is not cheap.

Neil Rutherford (00:33:16):
And all my friends who drink say, oh, that's way too expensive.

Neil Rutherford (00:33:20):
And I'm like, I used to spend like three times that on drinking.

Rachel Casey (00:33:23):
I think for health things, it's definitely a plus.

Rachel Casey (00:33:26):
But we've definitely gotten unnecessary things that we're just like, why?

Rachel Casey (00:33:31):
We're doing it.

Rachel Casey (00:33:31):
And we have the excuse more so in beginning sobriety.

Rachel Casey (00:33:35):
Well, we're not spending it on alcohol.

Rachel Casey (00:33:37):
And I don't even know how we would have made alcohol work in the bills because it...

Rachel Casey (00:33:42):
It's like so the money no longer is going to alcohol,

Rachel Casey (00:33:45):
but somehow it's not like reappearing elsewhere.

Rachel Casey (00:33:48):
It's like maybe paying off the debt we were using to buy the alcohol.

Rachel Casey (00:33:51):
And it's funny how that happens.

Neil Rutherford (00:33:54):
Even with alcohol-free beers,

Neil Rutherford (00:33:56):
I went up into town the other day just to meet some of my other alcohol-free coaches.

Neil Rutherford (00:34:00):
And it was nice to go out for like a big lunch with 10 of you and none of you were drinking.

Neil Rutherford (00:34:06):
It was like a nice community vibe.

Neil Rutherford (00:34:08):
But the alcohol-free beers were still like in that London pub, six pounds.

Neil Rutherford (00:34:12):
So maybe it's like $10, I think.

Rachel Casey (00:34:14):
i'm like why would i pay i'll have a sprite like i'll have this photo water i mean

Rachel Casey (00:34:19):
we get topo the way we topo chico is my go-to and i like when they have the glass

Rachel Casey (00:34:24):
bottle but even then i don't i think that's where one of i've told colin my mind

Rachel Casey (00:34:29):
shift switch that i used to care about my drinking and everyone else's drinking and

Rachel Casey (00:34:35):
making sure everyone has drinks where in sobriety i'm kind of like why are you

Rachel Casey (00:34:39):
worried about

Rachel Casey (00:34:40):
My drink order like let I don't also realize that there are normal people that just

Rachel Casey (00:34:46):
I I'm on antibiotics.

Rachel Casey (00:34:47):
I don't want to drink.

Rachel Casey (00:34:48):
That was never something I said.

Rachel Casey (00:34:50):
But that was to me, it's like any opportunity to drink was a yes.

Rachel Casey (00:34:55):
And now I'm like,

Rachel Casey (00:34:56):
yeah,

Rachel Casey (00:34:57):
if you have a problem with me ordering a soda,

Rachel Casey (00:34:59):
then that this is more about alcohol.

Rachel Casey (00:35:02):
You, I never want to like be negative or burdened because that used to be me.

Rachel Casey (00:35:07):
And so I just think I'm like,

Rachel Casey (00:35:09):
there was probably someone sober when I was acting like an ass at a bar and they

Rachel Casey (00:35:14):
looked at me and they just was like,

Rachel Casey (00:35:17):
yeah,

Rachel Casey (00:35:17):
that used to be me too.

Rachel Casey (00:35:18):
And then I have to pay that forward.

Neil Rutherford (00:35:21):
I think it's a reason I wanted to come onto this is because it is global.

Neil Rutherford (00:35:26):
And alcohol problems, they are global.

Neil Rutherford (00:35:29):
And the world we're now living in where it's gone more online,

Neil Rutherford (00:35:32):
we can share our resources and we can have bigger communities.

Neil Rutherford (00:35:35):
And even the coaching course I was on, we have people from America.

Neil Rutherford (00:35:40):
We have people from New Zealand.

Neil Rutherford (00:35:41):
It's across the globe.

Neil Rutherford (00:35:43):
I think that that's great that we can find our tribe.

Neil Rutherford (00:35:46):
Exactly.

Neil Rutherford (00:35:48):
And that's why I love the work you're doing.

Neil Rutherford (00:35:49):
And I can see you sort of growing that online presence eventually because,

Neil Rutherford (00:35:53):
again,

Neil Rutherford (00:35:55):
your podcast was getting picked up in the UK and I was keen to come on to it.

Neil Rutherford (00:35:59):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:36:00):
I've actually had a few people in the UK.

Rachel Casey (00:36:03):
It's been a mess the last couple of months.

Rachel Casey (00:36:05):
It felt like we went so strong at first,

Rachel Casey (00:36:08):
and then we dealt with my immune flare-up,

Rachel Casey (00:36:11):
my son's immune flare-up.

Rachel Casey (00:36:12):
I'm hoping that this next month is where I can re-get it together.

Rachel Casey (00:36:15):
And I appreciate you reaching out.

Rachel Casey (00:36:17):
I appreciate you working with me because I know this has been a massive corporate.

Neil Rutherford (00:36:20):
I have a bit.

Neil Rutherford (00:36:21):
It's fine.

Neil Rutherford (00:36:22):
I knew it would happen at some point.

Neil Rutherford (00:36:23):
And I've even got aspirations to set up one day when I can get some headspace,

Neil Rutherford (00:36:27):
Alcohol-Free Warrior podcast.

Neil Rutherford (00:36:29):
It's another thing on the list.

Neil Rutherford (00:36:30):
I've just brought out a book, Alcohol-Free Warrior Men's Blueprint.

Neil Rutherford (00:36:34):
And that's like, you get these books.

Neil Rutherford (00:36:36):
It's like a journal where it says 366 pages.

Neil Rutherford (00:36:39):
And then so each day someone can...

Neil Rutherford (00:36:41):
sort of read a task and sort of motivational and then sort of journal their

Neil Rutherford (00:36:44):
thoughts because again guys aren't very good with that from what i've understood by

Neil Rutherford (00:36:48):
actually writing down what's in your mind and getting out of your head sometimes

Rachel Casey (00:36:52):
and i would also know is i am such person and i probably should do something for

Rachel Casey (00:36:56):
sober banter i love the one a day quotes yeah and it is amazing positive psychology

Rachel Casey (00:37:03):
making a gratitude list will change your whole day yeah

Rachel Casey (00:37:08):
And it is incredible.

Rachel Casey (00:37:10):
And I think alcoholics have this special gratitude because we know what the hell we

Rachel Casey (00:37:15):
were in of trying to just survive.

Rachel Casey (00:37:18):
And it's it's pretty easy to be like, God, I'm just grateful that I didn't drink today.

Rachel Casey (00:37:22):
And but I remember when I've had sponsors be like, I don't know what to write.

Rachel Casey (00:37:27):
And I'm like, write that you're grateful you have two hands.

(00:37:30):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:37:30):
Because there are people that do not have two hands.

(00:37:33):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:37:33):
Right.

Rachel Casey (00:37:33):
That you're grateful you have a car.

Rachel Casey (00:37:35):
Or there's a lot of people.

Rachel Casey (00:37:37):
If you go to a Miami, a ton of people don't have cars.

Rachel Casey (00:37:39):
You can get so basic and simple and or you could just be thankful that you didn't

Rachel Casey (00:37:44):
spend money on a drink today.

Rachel Casey (00:37:45):
You didn't drink.

Rachel Casey (00:37:46):
You were able to.

Rachel Casey (00:37:47):
And it's hard at first, but it gets way, way, way easier as it goes on, I think.

Neil Rutherford (00:37:53):
I did,

Neil Rutherford (00:37:53):
even in the AA meetings I went to,

Neil Rutherford (00:37:56):
it almost made me feel a bit guilty because I heard some hardcore stories in there

Neil Rutherford (00:38:00):
and it was getting me thinking,

Neil Rutherford (00:38:02):
oh,

Neil Rutherford (00:38:02):
maybe I'm not so bad.

Neil Rutherford (00:38:03):
And that's where I do think everyone's got their own level, but you can start to justify it.

Neil Rutherford (00:38:08):
Or you can knock change and you can end up on that path.

Neil Rutherford (00:38:11):
So...

Rachel Casey (00:38:11):
Well,

Rachel Casey (00:38:12):
I went to an NA meeting and because I had used drugs,

Rachel Casey (00:38:16):
I just felt that was a little more hardcore than where I was at.

Rachel Casey (00:38:20):
So, yeah.

Neil Rutherford (00:38:21):
There is a beauty to share, though, isn't there?

Neil Rutherford (00:38:24):
So even today,

Neil Rutherford (00:38:25):
talking with you,

Neil Rutherford (00:38:25):
sharing a story,

Neil Rutherford (00:38:27):
sharing with someone else that you've been through a journey,

Neil Rutherford (00:38:29):
it's uplifting.

Neil Rutherford (00:38:31):
So like I'm in a really positive mood now.

Rachel Casey (00:38:34):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:38:34):
And hopefully that'll help with having and having a sick child at home and sobriety

Rachel Casey (00:38:40):
is actually just for me personally.

Rachel Casey (00:38:43):
And I said this before the autoimmune came on the first cold I had in sobriety.

Rachel Casey (00:38:49):
I loathed like I hate because it almost felt like a hangover and it made me feel

(00:38:56):
Yeah, yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:38:57):
It felt close.

Rachel Casey (00:38:58):
And I'm like, God, having flu or actually it was COVID.

Rachel Casey (00:39:01):
I got COVID.

Rachel Casey (00:39:03):
And I was like,

Rachel Casey (00:39:03):
man,

Rachel Casey (00:39:04):
this being out of breath after having this beautiful couple of months of just pure bliss,

Rachel Casey (00:39:09):
sobriety,

Rachel Casey (00:39:09):
getting an infection definitely triggered the because I used to drink.

Rachel Casey (00:39:13):
my infections away,

Rachel Casey (00:39:14):
I would justify like hottie toddies,

Rachel Casey (00:39:16):
like have to have the whole thing of Jameson and oh,

Rachel Casey (00:39:19):
the alcohol is going to kill off the bacteria or the infection.

Rachel Casey (00:39:22):
As you just said, what I did do was online meetings.

Rachel Casey (00:39:25):
I had my laptop in the bed.

Rachel Casey (00:39:27):
You can just throw it.

Rachel Casey (00:39:28):
There's pretty much a speaker meeting you can find any day,

Rachel Casey (00:39:30):
any night,

Rachel Casey (00:39:31):
or there's meetings now on the

Rachel Casey (00:39:34):
meeting finder coaching you would be a great outlet go on look at some of the

Rachel Casey (00:39:39):
stories the blogs there's it's just so accessible now that i don't know what i

Rachel Casey (00:39:43):
would have done or how it would have being honest with how i felt i don't know if

Rachel Casey (00:39:47):
it was like that for you but for me my first flu or cold was actually very hard

Neil Rutherford (00:39:52):
yeah no i know what you mean and you get used to feeling well and being in control

Neil Rutherford (00:39:56):
of everything and enjoying that thank you that's

Rachel Casey (00:39:58):
And you're like, but I'm not drinking.

Rachel Casey (00:40:00):
And so that should just be like, well, if I didn't drink.

Rachel Casey (00:40:04):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:40:04):
So it doesn't like fix everything.

Rachel Casey (00:40:07):
Like I still get colds.

Rachel Casey (00:40:08):
I still get flus.

Rachel Casey (00:40:09):
And I hate it.

Rachel Casey (00:40:09):
I hate it because I know how good it feels to just be me in my own skin.

Rachel Casey (00:40:14):
And that was something I never thought I would be able to do.

Rachel Casey (00:40:18):
And well,

Rachel Casey (00:40:19):
if you could go back to your past self,

Rachel Casey (00:40:21):
like some non-serious fun advice,

Rachel Casey (00:40:24):
what would you tell yourself about getting sober for getting alcohol free,

Rachel Casey (00:40:28):
whichever?

Neil Rutherford (00:40:29):
Yeah,

Neil Rutherford (00:40:29):
I think just to be kind to yourself and there will be bumps in the road and it is a journey.

Neil Rutherford (00:40:36):
to learn you don't just do it on your first go you've got to learn the hard way so

Neil Rutherford (00:40:40):
just to embrace it and to be kind to yourself not to beat yourself up so much i

Neil Rutherford (00:40:44):
think i used to do a lot of that i was very guilty of beating myself up and

Neil Rutherford (00:40:48):
realizing it is a it's not there's still a lot of blame attached to it isn't

Neil Rutherford (00:40:51):
there's a lot of stigma unfortunately where people say well you choose to do that

Neil Rutherford (00:40:54):
and people don't realize how serious a problem it is so and it's okay to ask for

Neil Rutherford (00:40:58):
help so it's

Neil Rutherford (00:41:00):
As I say, whether it's coaching or AA or whatever else, you need to explore what works for you.

Neil Rutherford (00:41:06):
Absolutely.

Neil Rutherford (00:41:07):
And take action as soon as you can.

Neil Rutherford (00:41:09):
Not to put it off because the years go, right?

Neil Rutherford (00:41:11):
And I feel like I lost my 30s almost by trying to quit for 10 years.

Neil Rutherford (00:41:16):
And my 20s are like a blur now.

Neil Rutherford (00:41:19):
There's some funny stories in there, I'm sure.

Neil Rutherford (00:41:21):
Yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:41:22):
Even thinking of funny stories, there's just more embarrassing to be honest, but yeah.

Rachel Casey (00:41:26):
Well, before kind of coming to a close, wrapping up, I first thank you for your time.

Rachel Casey (00:41:31):
Anything you just want to share with listeners,

Rachel Casey (00:41:34):
Instagram and social media,

Rachel Casey (00:41:36):
and of course your website,

Rachel Casey (00:41:37):
which your website's well laid out that when you log in,

Rachel Casey (00:41:41):
it already says setting up one-on-one coaching or joining community.

Rachel Casey (00:41:45):
So is there anything special that you'd like to share?

Neil Rutherford (00:41:49):
That's the main thing is that for people to reach out if they're interested in just

Neil Rutherford (00:41:54):
booking a call or finding out a bit more about Alcohol-Free Warriors community.

Neil Rutherford (00:41:58):
As I say, there is a book that's come out now.

Neil Rutherford (00:42:00):
I think for me, the Getting Sober, it was the reading and the podcasts.

Neil Rutherford (00:42:04):
They almost became like my resources to educate yourself.

Neil Rutherford (00:42:09):
So Alcohol Explained by William Porter, that was a big one.

Neil Rutherford (00:42:12):
This Naked Mind by Annie Grace, that was a good one.

Rachel Casey (00:42:14):
I liked Donovan Nation.

Rachel Casey (00:42:16):
That was one of my favorite.

Neil Rutherford (00:42:17):
Yeah.

Neil Rutherford (00:42:17):
yeah and so yeah with the quit lit embrace myself with all that listening to the

Neil Rutherford (00:42:22):
podcast just being part of that community and part of that movement so absolutely

Rachel Casey (00:42:27):
and there's no shame in reaching out and if something happens i i never have judged

Rachel Casey (00:42:32):
anyone like i'm like yeah i've done it too and sometimes this is just the the blip

Rachel Casey (00:42:36):
or the part of the journey that gets you to your final destination of sobriety

Rachel Casey (00:42:40):
because i know some people will be like

Rachel Casey (00:42:42):
I'm such a failure and they're embarrassed or it's like,

Rachel Casey (00:42:45):
man,

Rachel Casey (00:42:45):
do you know how many dry Januarys and sober Octobers I didn't make it through

Rachel Casey (00:42:49):
before I got sober?

Rachel Casey (00:42:50):
Because trust me, I know because like I remember the feeling.

Rachel Casey (00:42:54):
I remember the shame.

Rachel Casey (00:42:55):
I remember the guilt.

Rachel Casey (00:42:56):
But those all added up to where I finally got my last straw.

Rachel Casey (00:43:00):
And it's it all serves its purpose.

Rachel Casey (00:43:02):
Right.

Neil Rutherford (00:43:03):
And I love the work you're doing.

Neil Rutherford (00:43:04):
A lot of respect.

Neil Rutherford (00:43:06):
I know it's hard work alongside work and having family,

Neil Rutherford (00:43:09):
but to put podcasts out there,

Neil Rutherford (00:43:11):
because I know they do help a lot of people listening in.

Rachel Casey (00:43:14):
I hope so.

Rachel Casey (00:43:15):
I hope that even down the road,

Rachel Casey (00:43:17):
if anyone wants to,

Rachel Casey (00:43:18):
someone might not listen to this till next year.

Rachel Casey (00:43:22):
And it's just, it can still be relatable and it's good recovery banter.

Neil Rutherford (00:43:26):
You're leaving some legacy out there.

Rachel Casey (00:43:28):
Like, yeah, I'm just a regular person.

Rachel Casey (00:43:30):
Yeah.

Neil Rutherford (00:43:31):
But it's an inspiration for change, which is great.

Neil Rutherford (00:43:34):
So well done.

Neil Rutherford (00:43:35):
Thanks so much for having me on this.

Rachel Casey (00:43:37):
Yeah, I was like, you too.

Rachel Casey (00:43:38):
And I love, I see you on Instagram.

Rachel Casey (00:43:41):
So I mean,

Rachel Casey (00:43:42):
that's where,

Rachel Casey (00:43:43):
and I've been a little off on social media the last few weeks,

Rachel Casey (00:43:46):
but I'm looking forward to promoting your site and getting some other people help.

Rachel Casey (00:43:51):
It might be in a softer, easier way.

Rachel Casey (00:43:53):
And I know people really benefit from the one-on-one

Rachel Casey (00:43:57):
coaching too because you can get a little more personal and it's a safe space it's

Rachel Casey (00:44:01):
not as harsh as like an entire meeting with people that you don't know there is an

Rachel Casey (00:44:05):
aspect to a one-on-one and someone who's gone through it yeah yeah some some of my

Neil Rutherford (00:44:10):
clients i met in the sauna it's just us talking and that face-to-face aspect was

Rachel Casey (00:44:15):
lovely as well yeah i mean i have my if people know and it's funny when someone

Rachel Casey (00:44:19):
will ask who doesn't know but i have my circle triangle tattoo and they'll see it

Rachel Casey (00:44:23):
and be like what is that and or some will be like friend of bill me too and

Rachel Casey (00:44:27):
yeah yeah all right well thank you for coming on sober banter i'm so appreciative

Rachel Casey (00:44:32):
thank you for your time thank you for coming from across a different country from

Rachel Casey (00:44:36):
across the pond and until next time so thank you thank you so much thanks very good