Learn how to build a better sign and print shop from a few crusty sign
guys who've made more mistakes than they care to admit conversations
and advice on pricing, sales, marketing, workflow, growth, and more.
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Welcome back to another edition of the better sign shop podcast as always.
Well, not as always today, I'm flying solo Bryant here.
Uh, I've got an extra special guest is somebody that I have looked up
to for a long time in the industry.
I used to read every article that the guest today published,
uh, his work has always been, um, Very inspirational for me.
So, really excited to chat with our guest, Mr.
Dan Sawatzky of Imagination Corporation.
Uh, this should be a great conversation.
Uh, I hate that Peter and Michael are not here.
Uh, They're just going to miss out on the fun.
So without further ado, our extra special guests, Mr.
Dan Sawatsky from Imagination Corporation.
All right, guys, we are joined by our extra special guest and hero of mine and
Peter's, uh, Michael, I don't know where you're at, man, but you're missing out.
We've got Mr.
Dan Sawatsky, legend in the sign industry.
I super excited to have you on Dan.
I really don't think you need an introduction here, but, uh, I
just wanted to say It's been very inspirational for me over the years,
reading all of your magazine articles, looking at your work, studying it.
Uh, so it's really a treat to have you on to the podcast.
Thanks for joining us.
Thank you so much.
So I'm
sure that there are going to be a lot of listeners out there that
know who you are, Dan, that know your work, that have seen your work.
But for those of our listeners that don't want, don't you tell
us a little bit about yourself and your business and your background.
Okay, I've been in the sign business practically forever.
I started at age 14.
I lived in a very small town and my brother entered a competition to paint
windows for for an event and he won 15.
This was back in the late sixties, 15 was a fortune.
Something that took my dad, um, a better part of a day to earn.
And, uh, we could do it in an hour.
So it was like, Holy cow.
This is a cool business.
So I was 14 years old.
I got my mom's Christmas cards and I made up a sample book and I hitchhiked
to town because I was too young to drive.
And, uh, sold, uh, windows in that first year I made 600 bucks after school while
I was still in grade 10 and it was, uh, I couldn't think of a better way
to make a living than, than do that.
So, so
at 14,
that's amazing.
And it pulled it off again the next year and made double that or triple that.
I can't remember.
It was a long time ago.
And then I started a sign shop still in high school.
Uh, made horrible science and, uh, really horrible, um, and right from
the start, I wasn't satisfied with.
I mean, I did my 1st truck and the 2nd door on the truck absolutely bored me.
Um, so I was determined not to be that sign writer.
But instead, do creative stuff.
So, I mean, uh, MDO comes in 4x8 sheets, but you don't have to sell it that way.
They, uh, they make jigsaws to fix that.
So, we were cutting our stuff out and layering it right from the very start.
And that's all we've sold is, I've never sold, or sold
very, very few ordinary signs.
Uh, or that term ordinary and
I don't think I've ever seen anything that you've done that ordinary
and that's no, I mean, I mean, I asked when I did my workshops, I asked
people, what percentage of your work would you be happy to see in a trade
magazine or enter into a competition?
And most people are happy with 2%, 5%.
Which boggles my mind is like, why can't it be 95%?
Cause you can't hit a hundred, but you can do pretty close.
So that's what we did.
That from the start and people say, Oh, that's cool.
You can say no to, to ordinary stuff now, but I've always said no to ordinary stuff.
And you know, I mean, you asked Dan and Nelly, what do you do if
a customer comes to you with a horrible idea that his nephew drew?
Oh, and my solution is, is, uh, try and explain that that's not going to work for
him, try and sell them something better.
And if, if they won't go, don't do it, walk away because tomorrow you're
known for exactly what you do today.
So.
I don't want to be the bottom feeder.
I want to be the top cutting edge.
Yeah,
that makes sense.
So, you, in high school, you started your shop, you said
you made some horrible signs.
Like, what was, what was, do any of those projects stick out to you?
Like, what was, what was the horrible sign that you were like, okay, like,
this is not where we want to be.
Like, this is actually what we want to do.
Well, I mean, everything was hand drawn in those days.
And, I mean, I was broke.
I had no money, you know, like every kid.
And, and the layouts weren't that good.
The brushwork was horrible.
They were always done in a hurry because I was always in a hurry
and, uh, the science reflected that.
But, but as I, you know, we try and raise the bar with every single project.
So.
When you do that, your signs get much better in a real big hurry.
Was there, was there any like particular project when you were first starting out
that was like, okay, like we've raised the bar here and, and like what that it
does, are there any that stick out to you when you first got started that were
like, Hey, we've taken a big leap here.
And what that project was like.
Well, every single project, uh, I mean, you become known for as a creative
problem solver and so every project quickly becomes out of your reach.
I mean, every project, even to this day, we bid project not having a
clue how we're going to pull it off.
Um, but we always do.
We don't always make money, but we always pull it off.
Yeah.
That's the curse of the sign maker, right?
Yeah.
We can do that.
We'll
figure it out.
Yeah.
I mean, I mean, it used to be this sign shop is what that's where you went.
If you wanted something creative, if you wanted a parade float, if you
wanted, you know, something unusual to make your business stand out.
You go see your local sign guy.
Now you go for a vinyl sign that everybody else does, which is sad.
Agreed.
Uh, so, like, tell us about Imagination Corporation today.
Like, what does the business look like today versus back when you first started?
I mean, Imagination Corporation started out very small.
It was just my wife and I.
She helped out.
And we would do stuff.
My son Peter worked with me since he was little.
I mean, Imagination Corporation, my journey has been, uh, various.
In this big circle, it's it, I started out doing window splashes, went to fine art.
Um, I worked with some 40 galleries and stuff from there.
I went in always doing signs on the side at least.
Uh, and then went into historical murals.
I've done 125 all across Canada and the US.
And then I discovered, uh, as, as my quest to do wilder things, the theme park
industry has been a huge part of our.
Our repertoire and the tourism industry because you can sell
more creative work there.
Most often I haven't sold work in my own town.
Like, you know, people say to me, Oh, I could never sell
work like you make in my town.
Well, I can.
You know, and why do they bypass you to phone me and I'm a thousand miles away?
Is because that's what I'm known for.
And I think more people could do the creative stuff if they, if
they just put their heart into it.
Start with your own sign.
Your, your, the, every sign shop should have an award winning sign up front.
You know, the best they can do.
Even if it takes them five years to make it.
In their spare time.
There's no reason why you shouldn't have that kind of sign.
And if you walk the walk yourself, people want to buy into that success.
And how do they do it is they buy your work.
So, you know, I, and then promote it on the internet.
I think it's easier than it ever used to be.
You know, before people could only find me in the phone book or if
they happen to drive by a sign.
Now they type in creative sign and chances are mine will pop up or dimensional sign.
No matter where you are.
So it's
again, with the internet, it's become easier to share
your work.
I believe so.
I mean, in, in 19, no, 2008, when that 2009, the big
downturn, uh, it affected us too.
And there was a ton of many, many weeks I went out to the shop
and there was literally no work.
So, so what do you do?
Uh, build a sample, build your own sign, uh, and that year I, I committed
to doing 12 major samples which are still hanging on my wall with the
intent of, of when, when things improve, I'll have the samples to sell work
because how do I describe what I did?
Like, it's impossible to describe what I did.
Yeah.
I gotta show people.
Yeah.
I gotta show people what I did.
So, those samples, I mean, I sent them into competitions,
I sent them to Sinecraft, you probably read articles on them.
Uh, you know, a lot of the work that is featured in the magazines.
Uh, is stuff that we've done as samples, um, or
even just the pieces that you were doing on your own home on like your CNC
router were like mind blowing for me.
Yeah, again, I, our site shop is in our backyard.
I've always worked from home.
That's a conscious choice.
I made.
Before kids even came along and, and, uh, it's been a great choice.
So I'm, I'm in a residential area.
I have residential zoning.
How do you, and so the, the city says I can only put a very small sign up
front, but it doesn't, the city didn't tell me what kind of house I can build.
So, I mean, people screech to a stop in front of my house, and they're out there
taking pictures, and then they see my little sign, and you see them whip out
their phone, and Google my name, and boom, they know who I am, they know what
I do, they know where I've done my work.
How
tremendous is that?
That's like, that's the definition in my book?
Of living outside the box.
Yeah, I mean, I
mean, if I could say if I could put a title, I mean, you
probably have a different one.
But if when it went, when, when the good Lord above calls your
name, I would put on your tombstone that quote living outside the box.
Was a lifestyle to me, to me, that's exactly that's exactly what I've
learned from you over the years is how to look at things differently.
Exactly.
Not not necessarily in 2 D.
not necessarily even even 3 D.
nowadays, like, we're, we're looking at things differently each and every
day, but you had this vision so beyond the typical sign shop owner.
I don't even, I would, I would, I would probably go as far as to say,
you're not even a sign shop anymore.
Uh, you, I don't think you ever
have been.
I still consider myself a sign shop, but not an ordinary sign.
And, and it, I mean, it's interesting.
I, I don't believe I can sell my work either in terms of if you,
if I, I don't do cold calls.
I've tried in the past.
They don't work for me because I can't sell you something unless you want.
And most people, they're thinking of an ordinary sign for a set amount of
dollars where I showcase my work and people drive up my driveway regularly.
In fact, on weekends, I have to keep my gates closed or my yard is full of people.
And if 100 90 of them will go away with nothing.
I'll send them away.
They'll, they'll look and they'll look and it's like, Oh, that's kind of out there.
Or it's, you know, and they know it's not Walmart.
It's not going to be cheap.
Everything is custom, you know, and everything is obviously expensive.
So 90 percent will price themselves off my yard immediately.
And, and then 10, 10 of those people will, I'll talk to in depth, maybe give them
a little tour of the shop, my studio.
Four of those will go to design, one will be, one will build and,
and we actually, uh, qualify our customers with five questions.
Everyone who gets to that, into that small 10 or 4%, we
actually have a test for them.
They don't know they're being tested, but I'm interviewing.
Sit down in my studio and let's have a chat.
It's the same way I test employees.
They don't know they're running a test, but everything's a test.
And so, in my mind, I'm asking five questions.
And I'll interview the customer or prospective customer, preferably
my son and I do it together.
And then, uh, we send them away and say, we'll call you in a few days and
let you know if you are a customer.
I love that.
You guys are like totally flipping this script
and the five questions are, and the customer doesn't
know what the questions are.
This is questions we asking.
Inside the studio.
Wait, are they the same five questions?
Yes, they are.
Would you like to share them with us here today?
Yes, sure.
I'd love to.
First question is, will it be fun?
Will it make me laugh?
Will it be fun?
Life is too short to not have fun.
So the job has
to be Wait, is Will it be fun and will it make you laugh?
Is
that the Same question.
Same question.
Okay.
Is it going to be fun for us and our staff?
You know, are we going to love this job?
Next question is, do we have creative control?
If the customer is going to tell me how to do the job, they're not my customer.
It doesn't mean I ignore my customer.
It means that I have creative control.
You've come to me as an expert.
Please trust me.
If you don't trust me, you're not my customer.
Go away.
So if you bring me nephew art and you insist on your nephew art,
thank you so much for coming in.
I'll see you around.
And you have to be that brutal.
Because if you put out a piece of crap, you're, that's what
you're known for immediately.
Let's say, yeah, you don't want to slap your name on it.
Third question, do we have time?
I mean, right now we're booked into 2024 and pushing into 2025.
So if you're not willing, if you come to me as a customer
and you need a sign next week.
Thank you so much for coming in, but you're not my customer.
Please come when you have more time.
And I have more time because I'm not going to, I don't work overtime
in my shop and neither do my staff.
So, uh, your time crunch is not my problem.
That's your problem.
You know, go get a temporary sign, pay a deposit and get on my list.
Cause that's the only way to get on my list is, is a sizable deposit.
Nice.
And you guys are booking into 2025 already.
We're not full in 2024, but some projects already going into 2025
and we're designing into 2026.
Amazing.
All right.
So
what's the next question?
Fourth question.
Is the project good for us?
Will it raise our bar?
Will it improve our reputation?
Cause we know it's good for the customer.
It's going to bring them a ton of business.
He'll make hopefully a ton of money.
Based on the sign we do for him, but is the project good for us?
Does it take us in a direction we want to go
and do you physically ask them that question or like
these are questions?
Okay, based on the interview in turn.
I'll beat around that but in turn, okay This is questions
Pete and I ask each other gotcha.
And the last question we ask is is there enough money?
Because we know we're going to change things as the sign goes through, we know
that we're going to make mistakes, or things are going to go wrong, or it's
going to take longer than we think.
It always does, especially in a complex project.
So that has to be built in from the start, because it quotes a quote.
And we never increase our price.
Well, okay.
So
I have, I have 2 follow up questions to that.
The 1st 1 is ever since you put that policy in place, those 5 questions,
have you ever the 1st question is, have you ever deviated from those answers?
Yes.
And we read it every single time.
Yes.
And you've regretted it every single time.
Okay.
So, as a follow up to that, I would like to hear about.
Why that has bothered you?
Like, what was it?
Is it the interaction with the customer?
Did it not meet those
qualifications?
Either I didn't make money or because I wanted the job too bad and I bid
it too low, or it won't satisfy me.
And I knew I could have done better.
And that drives me nuts.
And you thought you could have did better.
And that drives you nuts.
Was it, was it just like a low Lear project or was it just like
the, the clients kind of demands?
Yeah.
I mean, I do a lot of the sales or first initiation and we, we ask these
questions and then we'll do a run at the design where I do a run at the design
with Peter looking on my shoulder or my daughter back looking on my shoulder.
And they go, Oh, that's cute dad.
But what if we did this?
And it becomes that much crazier.
And then the question we ask ourselves is are we willing to risk
the job to do that kind of work?
And if the answer is yes, then we don't even pitch the lesser
design We only pitch the cool one because most times we go into a job.
There is no budget If a customer is concerned about money,
there's not enough money.
He's better off to go get a plane signed somewhere.
Okay.
So this is my second question.
You mentioned your son.
I would assume your son is a partner in this business with you.
He's he's the majority owner.
Now
he's the majority owner now.
Wow.
Good for him.
Yeah.
Okay.
We're going to have to go here soon.
He's sitting right beside him here.
I don't half a percent.
You own a half of percent in the business.
Why only a half?
Okay, I have so many
questions, but let me ask you this.
I'm 69 years old.
I don't need to own it.
And man, besides he's better than I am at everything.
I mean, I trained him.
I mean, how often do you get to train your boss when you're little?
And if he, if he, if he's not good, it's my fault.
I screwed up.
Okay.
That's the ultimate ownership mentality right there.
Has there ever been a time where you and Pete saw a project
differently and had a difference of
opinion every single
time?
I mean, how do you come to a resolution?
He's the owner I can defer to him.
Okay, so it's
just the amount of equity.
There's no creative
there Oh, I mean we argue and sometimes I say look at the customer won't you know,
like we just did a design for a mini golf Uh, that was the owner wanted a logging
theme and Peter pitched robot dinosaur logging theme, which was very cool.
And so, uh, I, I pitched, I said, I don't, the customer's not going to go there.
I don't, I don't think so, but I did the drawing.
Anyhow, we did a concept drawing of, for both versions and the owner
sadly didn't take it, which happens.
I mean, I've got.
Full of designs that have not yet sold and the keyword is not yet
because we can repitch it just
in a different application different type of idea.
Yeah, there'll be a customer that that is braver.
So,
what do you call that?
You call that your, your
secret stash?
Yeah, we got, we got, there's a lot of secrets that The dream
stash, the imagination station.
I mean, I'll never get to build all the crazy ideas in my head.
And nor will Peter, but we build a lot of
them.
Yeah, you guys have gotten your fair share.
I will say that.
It's amazing.
So do you do the concept drawings before?
They do a deposit or like, Hey, we think this could be a fit and like, Hey, you
got to the deposit before we even do
the teaser.
But, but I explained to the customer that, that an idea like design work
needs to be paid for before I do it.
Because I, once I show you something, I can't take it back.
And then that being said, I'll do you a teaser with the understanding
that you don't own this drawing.
It's mine.
If you want it, you have to pay for it.
Gotcha.
And then one drawing, I mean, most times our design contracts are in
the tens of thousands of dollars.
So they'll get one free low res drawing.
And then, and then once they pay for design, they'll get their 15
or 20 that's part of the package.
Gotcha.
It's such a totally different process than like the average sign shop, which is why
I was so excited for this conversation because like you, you take the, the
average model and like totally flip it
on its head.
Yeah, I mean, if you come to me and say, I want a house number for my house, sorry,
we just, you know, it's a small job for us is, you know, just like 10 grand.
So if you want to pay 10 grand for a house number, that's fine, but
nobody does because that's silly.
But we'll, if you want us to design your house and do all the fancy crazy,
you know, and house numbers part of it, and there's a package that's, you
know, 50, 000, let's stop and, and the house number won't come in at 10, 000,
it'll come in at, you know, a thousand bucks as part of a bigger package.
So, like, what type of projects are you guys?
Doing most now?
Is it still like theme parks and, and like
tours and stuff forth?
Theme are, yeah.
Theme parks, uh, are a big part of it.
And, um, I, I was a keynote speaker at a theme park convention five years ago,
and in the, and this was in Florida.
There was, I don't, there was 40,000 people that convention.
It was big and in the audience was a farmer.
And he said, come to my farm.
And I went, okay, cool.
Come to your farm, you know, here's my fee.
And he said, fine, we need, you need to book three days plus travel time.
So it was five days in Nebraska.
Turns out this firm has seized, uh, upwards of they're gonna hit
half a million guests pretty quick in six weeks on an annual basis.
And now we do a semi load of signs for them every year.
And that farm is, the farm business is a cool business and they share, I just
spoke at another conference, a farm, tourism farm conference in the spring.
And we now have, I think, 15 farms that we're doing design work for.
Wow.
And is it just like
a, like they, like a tourism farm?
Like people come in to...
Pumpkin farms,
you know.
Oh,
oh, gotcha.
Oh, okay.
Gotcha.
Okay.
Makes sense.
And the apple cider is and all that kind of stuff.
Uh, gotcha.
Yeah.
Okay.
Like corn mazes and pumpkin patches.
Okay.
I mean, that's a business I didn't know existed five years ago.
Yeah, yeah, those are increasingly popular in my area in the
backwoods of West Virginia.
So I can imagine outside of a major market, it would
be a very sizable business.
So and then the theme park industry and then tourism industry is big for us too.
You know, resorts and things
when you weren't quite as well known as you are now, like, did it, like, what was
different, I guess, like, did you have these questions initially, or this is
like the model that you've like crafted over the lifetime in the industry.
When I started doing workshops, I put those, you know, articulated those
questions that we, we've always done that, but not in a formal sense or, or
what are the questions, um, you know.
But we've always had that sort of that test.
Yeah, I mean, it's, it goes back to when I did murals.
You know, how do you become famous for murals?
I was asked to do murals in a small town on Vancouver Island
in British Columbia here.
Uh, and so we went there, painted a mural, and again, a light went on.
It's a matter of looking and seeing what's available in terms of opportunity.
And I said, people are going to come to this town because of the murals.
It's a good town to do art.
And so a year later, we moved there and, you know, the tourism
went from zero to 400, 000 people every year and very, very quickly.
And the first question they had, because there was like 30 murals through town,
which I did seven, is who did the murals?
And can I talk to them?
Because people from West Virginia want to come, you know, drop in and, and, uh,
say, hey, this would go good in my town.
So who do we talk to?
And they would end up on my doorstep.
And, and I would take the time to give them a tour of the town and they
went, Hey, would you want to come to our town and, and sell this idea?
And it's sure.
So two weeks later, I'd be on a plane to West Virginia.
And, and, uh, I'd talk to their Rotary Club and they'd host a thing.
And I'd say, Hey, let me do up some artwork for you.
Uh, and then if you do a limited print of this, you can sell
them and pay for the mural.
And so a month later, they'd have limited print and, and I'd be in their town doing
the first historical mural in their town.
And that would turn into three or four murals because they know who I am.
And then, so now I'm, I'm known in West Virginia.
People go there and say, who did that?
Well, here's the guy in British Columbia.
So I mean, you know, in 10 years and did 125 murals.
It's just a exploded.
Yeah.
See that makes so much sense because you like you're helping
them almost like finance in a way of like, Hey, here's the artwork.
Go.
Here's what to do.
Like, here's my fee.
I'm not going to discount it.
I'm worth.
This is going to bring 10 times that to you guys in tourism.
Here's.
Here's a way to pay for this, without you guys being out
of pocket for it.
I mean, to be successful is not hard.
You just gotta wear out lots of running shoes.
And run like crazy.
You know, it's, it's, I mean, I did it, I did it in fine art, I did it in
murals, now we're doing it in theme park signs and dimensional signage.
You know, and we're doing it in the Hazelnut Inn, that's
my son's project next door.
It's, you know, it's...
It could be done in anything.
You just got to do it better than anybody else.
And, and within the time, what's
the, what's the hazelnut in like a bed and
breakfast on steroids, I mean, it started, uh, my son and his wife, when
they got married eight years ago or nine years ago or something, they, they
wanted to stay in a castle, so they had to go to Europe on the plane home.
They went, we can build a castle.
So, so a year later, they went down to Hobbiton in New Zealand.
And Hobbiton is a movie set.
There's nothing there, but everybody wants to stay in a Hobbit.
So we can build a Hobbit home.
We call it the Underhill.
And, and then there's a third suite.
So, okay, well now let's build this thing and it's being built.
Uh, we get frustrated by customers that will go 70, 80 percent of the
way, which is still a long ways.
And so every few years we take on a project, our house, I built a mini
golf back in 2000, and now we're building the end, which we call our
stupid project is there is no budget.
There's no limit to creativity.
It's going to be off the wall.
And so if you, if you go to hazelnut in.
com and you look at this thing, we've been, imagine our utmost creativity for
five years, and it's not finished yet.
Cause we squeeze it in between our other jobs.
There's 4, 000 people signing up.
Ready to book a room and we don't know when it's going to open.
We don't know how much it's going to cost yet, but it won't be cheap.
And you don't need to be.
And what does that project do?
Is that, that has already been featured magazine.
That's already won awards.
It's already, and it's not finished.
So it raises our bar exponentially.
Right.
And it's your own project.
It's a
showcase.
I mean, it's, I, I've seen up to five and it's right next door to our house.
So when people stop, they just go googa and stupid in front of our place
and take all these pictures and they post them to their Facebook page.
And what are they doing?
They're advertising us.
Hey, do you take pictures of them with their jaws just wide open?
To me, that would be interesting just to come out and see like a
line of cars in your driveway, people with their mouths hanging
up and taking pictures of all that.
Yeah.
I mean, we're in a dinky little town where, you know, we're
only 3, 500 people in this town.
Yeah.
And that was, that was one of the talking points that we had, right?
So how much does location matter for your
success?
Location is absolutely critical and not at all necessary.
Now we are on a road that goes up to a lake that sees a million visitors a year.
So that's intentional, but at the same token, I don't necessarily
sell signs to those people.
Um, they know the people I sell signs to.
So, so locate, I mean, people say, Oh, I live in West Virginia.
I could never sell your kind of work.
Uh, silly you.
Yes, you could.
Uh, number one is build a webpage that showcases what you can do.
It can be samples.
It can be drawings.
Uh, it doesn't have to be a hundred pages.
It's only five of your best ones.
And that's what you become known for because nowadays is, I mean,
if you go out for dinner, you Google it, where do you want to go?
I don't know.
You type in something and it pops up.
So you just got to be so good that it comes up.
I mean, it's, I do a blog every single day and I view that as very
critical part of our advertising.
We get 20, 000 hits a month.
Now I'm only looking for one customer.
I'm only looking for one.
So your odds go up.
And then you can ask your five questions and pair that 20, 000,
that people down to the job you want.
Yeah.
How
many contact you in like the course of a week?
A lot.
I mean, no, but I mean, and we don't chase, I mean, I was just at a conference
and, and, you know, a customer comes up to me and, Oh, can you, can you,
here's my card, can you follow up?
So, no, I won't follow up.
Here's my card.
If you're interested, call me because I only have so much time.
I don't chase work.
We can't put, Peter says he's, you can't push a rope.
They have to beg me to do work and they have to answer
five yeses without knowing it
is like, do you have it?
Like if you like developed like this radar for, for like kicking out people
that are going to waste your time in the process, well, everybody talks
big.
Yeah, that's what I was gonna say like it would especially with like the work
that you do I can imagine there would be a Lot of people that are like, hey,
we want to do this We want to do that and we think you could do it really
well and then you know, like yeah I
mean, I was at a farm last week and and I met those people at the conference
and it's called okay For me to come visit is gonna be for three days.
It's gonna be 5, 000 plus expenses And then, and then the drawings are
basically a thousand bucks a sheet for, for a concept drawing, you know,
a concept drawing looks like that.
Right.
So that's a thousand bucks.
And I can do three of those in a day, which customer doesn't need to know, but
it's, it, you know, and, and the design package has to be paid for in advance.
So, so I got a check from this customer for 20, 000.
So that weeds out all the people who are the wannabes in a hurry.
You gotta want me.
You gotta have a vision.
You gotta, you know, trust me.
And you gotta like buy into the process wholeheartedly.
Otherwise, it's just not a good fit.
And then, you know, that customer and they get to talk and say, I'm
not trying to sell you anything.
But understand if you want me or if you want a piece for next
year, you have to book by January or you're not going to get it.
And I might be sold up in January.
I don't know.
That's next year.
So what is like the, what's like the average scope of a product?
Like, where do you guys usually come in on?
Like if we take like a mini golf,
at a million bucks of which our budget is at least half.
I mean, we just did one.
It came in at 900.
Yeah.
But are they approaching you at like the.
The very formation of it.
Like, Hey, we know we're going to do a mini golf.
It's going to
be Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, you have to trust me is I don't want to
do a jungle mini golf I don't want to do a pirate mini golf.
I don't want it all the common ones Go away, not interested.
But from the very inception, like they're coming to you and saying,
Hey, we want to do a mini golf.
We want you to do it.
It's going to be here.
Yeah.
They've seen my work.
They not, again, I'm not Walmart.
If you're trying to save money, uh, don't do the job or hire someone else.
Um, you're not going to save money with me.
I'm going to deliver good value.
But, uh, I'm not a bargain in terms of price alone.
If, if price is your concern, I'm not your guy.
Yeah, I,
I just trying to understand like, the scope of, of everything that you guys do.
Like what's involved in a project
for you guys.
Typically.
Okay.
Typically there's a preliminary design first, where I showed it at one drawing.
Yeah.
Like the concept, if, if people are under it or on it, it needs
engineering, which it's gonna add.
Uh, we just.
It can add significantly to the price, which we get, you know,
I do the design, hand it to my engineer, my engineer stamps it.
And brings back and that's required for building permits and stuff,
typically, and then, uh, and then it goes into this studio for fabrication.
We've got a very talented team, and we've got a structural welder.
We've got, you know, uh, there's, uh, 4 of us weld.
Um, and then, and a lot of it is pure grunt work.
It's hard work.
You're tying glass, you're bending steel, you're, you're troweling cement, you're
carving it, and then, and then the paint.
So, yeah,
I can just imagine, like, start to finish, like, how many hours do you
guys invest in like a mini golf?
Well, typically, if we got 12 months of the year, we're gonna do one,
possibly two, um, major projects.
Okay.
And then a few minor ones where, you know, a farm wants Two signs or one
entrance or something, and we can do, you know, three or four of those.
So, and that'll fill a year.
I mean, our projects, I mean, signed, uh, signs of time just asked
me for some articles or some, uh, pieces for the contest this year.
And he said, I don't have it.
Isn't going to give you this year because our projects started
before last year's contest.
Started.
Started and we haven't finished them yet.
They're not installed.
Right.
I, and it is just like it, the stuff that you guys do is
such, so immersive, you know?
Yeah.
And that's, I, I think that's why Pete was like, you guys are not even a sign shop.
Like you, you guys build experiences mostly what I would, yeah.
A sign is, A sign is, you know, most people define a sign as a
flat board with letters on it.
Mm-hmm.
. That's not a sign that I don't know what that is.
A sign to me is anything that draws attention to my customers,
product, service or business.
That can include the building, the landscaping, the features, you know,
why can't it be a 30 foot dinosaur, you know, or a robot that's 30 feet high?
I mean, we just did that project for South Dakota, the big robot, and I
said, okay, what is your objective here?
And he says, well, we have a busy road by our place, I want to stop traffic.
I said, okay, that's, you know, that's not a cheap project, but yes, I can do it.
You know, and we have, we have a standard in our shop and the standard is, this
is, and it's too easy now because everybody carries a camera on their phone.
But back in the eighties, it was the same standard.
Dan, it's called if someone isn't taking a picture.
where the newspaper isn't up front.
Before I finished installing, I have failed miserably and I'd never fail.
That's a high
standard.
I can tell
you, like, I've only hit that standard a couple times with the signs that
I've done.
Why not every project?
Yeah.
I agree.
I mean, imagine how fun that, imagine how fun that is.
And that's a, that's a conversation I've had with Mike and I, that's
why I hate that he's not on this one of like, that's why he got into
the sign industry, like to have fun and make these like creative signs.
And for, I feel like that's why a lot of people get into the
industry and then it, it just goes.
South somewhere, or like we just fall into a rutt, um, money.
Do you have it?
Yeah.
Could be.
Do you have any advice for, for somebody like that, of like, Hey,
like I used to have this desire to do these super creative signs, and
now I'm like, I'm, I'm in this rutt of like, Hey, we're, we're not doing
that work that I wanted to be doing.
Yeah.
Fir first.
First, my advice is what does your sign look like?
Is it the best sign in town?
Will it win an award?
Uh, if it, if it isn't shame on you, time to time to start your, your, your new
project and, and build your business.
Cause I mean, I've had hundreds of people.
I've had hundreds of people take my workshop and most of them, or many of them
are people who are exactly, you described they, they, they, this is what they want
to do business has dragged them way off this horrible path and why is because.
Uh, well, you buy a new piece of equipment and the payments are 1500 a month, so you
got to make that payment, you know, in my, you know, I mean, I, I understand all
that stuff, but it, but it's different.
You got to think differently.
I mean, when we bought our CNC router, I actually won a competition.
I went down to a science show.
It was either Florida or LA.
I can't remember, uh, ASA show, ISA.
And, um, getting the prize was anti climatic, because it's called,
here you go, and that was it.
It was just, okay.
I mean, first place in Signs of the Times magazine doesn't buy you a cup of coffee.
Right.
And it doesn't make you a better person, so you got to get over that.
But it is important, because number one, it, I mean, When I, we're going
to go around the circle a little bit here, uh, in 1981, I picked up
a sign magazine and it was Signs of the Times annual competition issue.
I still got it on my shelf.
It's dog eared.
And I said, someday I will be good enough to be there.
That was a promise to myself.
I never worked up the courage to enter for, I don't know, 15 years.
I should have, but I didn't.
So my advice to people is do one sign this year that is good enough to enter a
competition as a sample and then enter it.
And if you win cool, if you don't.
Well, now you know where the standard is.
You gotta do better next year.
But then, then hang that sample on your wall, and that becomes a sales tool.
Next year, do a better sample.
And next year, do a better sample.
And it's, to be, if you want to do what I do, it's a, between a three and
five year journey, to do it full time.
If, if you're, you know, and then raise your prices by 20 percent
overall, everything, and scare all your bad customers away.
That's just good advice.
That 20 percent you scare away will give you time to work more samples and
you're on your way to becoming what I am.
Simple as that.
Walk the walk.
Be the, be that guy.
I mean, if you, if you raise your prices, I, I, I talked to a guy in Alaska.
And he took my workshop eventually.
I went and visited him because I was bidding a cruise ship at that time.
I went in to shop and he's, he's in Alaska in a town.
There's no road into this town.
You can only go there by boat or plane.
So he's the only sign shop in town.
And I said, tell me what's wrong with your business.
And he goes, I'm working endless hours.
Uh, he says, I'm not doing enough creative work.
Uh, and I'm not making money.
Well, it's simple.
Raise your prices 20%.
And he goes, I'll lose 20 percent of my business.
I said, yes, you will.
Absolutely.
Cause it'll be cheap.
It'll be expensive enough that people can go to another town and
ship their sign in and replace you.
Okay, but those 20% you don't care about anyhow.
They're not creative work because if you're doing creative work, you're
the guy you think you gotta go to.
And I said, if you raise your price 20%, you're now making 30%
more than you were before because there's no cost attached to that.
That's pure profit.
Right?
So now you have.
And you're not working overtime anymore.
So, you know, and then set a project when I do my samples, I set it just
outside my studio door as I go into my workshop and everybody in the
world, I know, waste 10 minutes a day.
And that's a very, very conservative estimate.
You know, don't, don't watch a CAD video and go work on
your sample for five minutes.
Every day.
So you
put it front and center, like where you can't miss
it.
And when you get a real crap job that sucks your soul, reward yourself
with half an hour on your project.
I love this man.
Like, no BS, like, Hey, like, just do it.
And anything less than that is just an excuse that you don't want to do it.
I mean, I mean, if 20 people took my workshop.
Everybody was going, Oh, yes, yes, this is cool.
Half of them will never do anything I say.
The other half will do it for a week and then they'll fall off the wayside.
And you get down to two will actually listen to me.
And in two years, I guarantee you they're doing better work.
Way better work.
Do you, uh,
do you stay in touch with the people?
Like, are you, are you still doing your workshops?
I've
quit now because of...
Gotcha.
It's, that was my passion.
It's not my boss's passion.
I got you.
Okay.
But do you stay in touch with a lot of the, the sign makers that it
shows and stuff, or they send me pictures.
I mean, it's very gratifying to see someone send you a picture and say,
Hey, Hey, look what I'm doing now.
And I mean, I helped change the industry in a small way.
It's not in a small way.
Well, I mean, I, yeah, but I've influenced people.
I hopefully lose people.
I mean, I love poking people.
You know, I mean, if I met you at a show and you were saying, Oh, I'd
like to, let's say that's an excuse.
I'll poke you right between the eyes and say, smarten up.
Don't give me crap.
You know, I don't have time.
Hey, you think I'm not busy?
You know, how is my life different?
You know, if people say, Oh, you're, you're lucky you're
born under a shining sun.
Uh, Hey, I just had a heart, not a heart issues.
I just had an open heart surgery.
I did.
My life is no different.
You know, people die around me.
My life is busy.
I.
Business goes south occasion.
I make horrible mistakes that cost me thousands of the dollar.
Every, my life is no different than anybody else's.
I'm still a very lucky guy because I've got family supporting me and I've got,
you know, I've got the most awesome boss in the world and life is good.
I mean, I'm 69 years old.
I've been in business 55 years.
I have no intention of retiring Because if I retire what am I gonna do?
I'm gonna come up in the shop and have fun Well, I started doing that full time at
age 23 So I guess that's when I retired.
It's all in the mindset.
I love that.
Before we close this out, can we, do you mind if we touch on
like the family business thing?
Sure.
Just
a little bit.
So when did your son like take over as majority
owner?
Uh, that would be six, seven years ago.
And it required a huge mindset change on my part.
Right down to, I mean, just check your ego, dude.
You're not in charge anymore.
That's
what I'm most curious about is like the transition.
What happened if Peter worked with me for 14 years and then
he went away for 14 years.
He said, I need to be, I need to be Peter for a while, not damn son.
I'm like, cool.
And he became an animator.
He got his teaching degree in mathematics.
I mean, he's a smart guy.
And then he came back to help us build our house, uh, 10 years ago.
And I said, I want to make any, he taught for six months
and it wasn't what he thought.
So I said, I want to make a deal.
You can't refuse.
Is if you want to come back, I'll bonus you enough money that you can buy the
business because I don't need money.
So it was a five year plan or that's what we talked about.
So then we went to see the accountant and he said, uh, explain to me
what happens if Peter comes back?
And I said, well, the business will go from doing 350 to over a million a year.
Instantly like that.
And he said, you tell me you're not in it for the money.
If that's the case, don't make a deal in five years.
Cause you'll pay too much tax and Peter will pay too much for the business.
Do it today because this was two weeks before the end of the year.
Uh, gotcha.
So we wrote up an agreement in the next two weeks and January 1st came along.
I was no longer a majority owner of the business.
I owned half a percent.
The next Saturday I was in town driving to town, doing some errands.
And I went, I just stole the truck.
I didn't ask Peter if I could drive it.
And it was like, in my head, it's like, you're not in charge anymore.
You can't do this.
So I told my wife and she said, uh, cause I hadn't owned a vehicle
personally in, in 30 years.
Wow.
Right.
And she said, do you, do you want a vehicle?
And I went, yeah, I think I'd like a vehicle.
And she says, what do you want?
And I said, I want a yellow Jeep.
Cause I had one when I was a kid and she says, why a yellow Jeep?
And I said, well, so I can take the top off and I can feel the wind in my hair.
And she says, uh, you better hurry.
So I drive a yellow Jeep.
There you go.
So was there like, was Peter always interested in
running the business?
He's not in love with running the business as much as I was running a
business, but the dude is talented.
And he's, he humbly says, well, I'm standing on your shoulders, that's
why he says, you know, everything I do learn from you and now, but, and
so he's taken it to the next level.
Would you, would you?
Yeah.
Would you attribute that to like the, like the, the first question, like your first
principle, like, Hey, is this going to be fun or is it, is it like something else?
Because I talked to a lot of owners that are in this similar position where like,
Hey, I've, I I'm getting ready to retire.
I'm retirement age.
And like, I want to hand this down.
I would love to hand it down to family, but family, dude.
May not be interested or
yeah, and and and it's important that you don't hand it someone that doesn't
want it Like Peter has to be Peter Peter is better at the business than I am I
mean much better and and much better businessman I mean we were doing a job in
Trinidad or bidding a job in Trinidad just when he came on And, and this was like
14 shipping container, 40 foot shipping containers full of signs and features.
And, and he says, do you mind if I review the bid?
And I said, no, please do.
And he said, are you happy with the prices?
I said, yeah, no, I'm happy with the prices.
So he goes through and he comes to me and he says, uh, there's
nothing in here for the skits.
How are you getting me in the container?
Why don't we just take our tractor and push him in?
No, no, he says, the way we ship is we build our features on a pallet,
custom made steel pallet that barely fits in the container and it slides in.
We still do that way.
Sure.
He says, how much does it cost to build one of those pallets?
And I went, I don't know, it's part of the feature.
And he says, no.
How much does it cost?
And it, the number we came up with once we started doing some math,
because Peter is a mathematician, where 8 feet of pallet cost 500.
Yeah, so is it not insignificant?
No, and, and he said, Plus, you have to, how long does it take?
And well, you just push it in.
No, he says, you've got, you've got a guy guiding it, another guy pushing it.
And you've got, you know, we handle it in our shop, we've got
to take the wheels off you, you know, and so we put a number to it.
And then he came up with a price of per foot.
And it got to be, when we did the math, it was 90, 000.
That I had put in a bid.
Wow.
And then he says, okay, what about in Trinidad?
You got to get those things back out.
And I said, well, they're flying you to Trinidad and I'm there.
Yeah.
But he says, you know, when you're there, it's called, what color do we paint this?
How do we do this?
Where's the landscaping?
Because you're running around doing all that stuff.
He says, we're going to double that bid for getting this
stuff out of the container too.
It was 180, 000 that I had left on the table.
Customer never blink.
That's Peter.
He's a smart guy.
So he, he, when we go through our bids, we have the formula because, you know,
people say, how do you cost your stuff?
It's like, it, it boils down to what, what is your shop rate?
Which is a very, very important number.
And then how long is it going to take?
And then put a buffer in there and then mark up your materials and, you
know, all that usual, you know, I've done articles and stuff in Sync.
So it all has to be factored in.
And so, you know, and it boils down to, and most sign shop owners
forget about this, is number one is what do you think you're worth?
How much do you want to make in a year as owner?
So you put that number.
Now that number is sacred because anything that cuts into that
number comes out of your pocket.
So, if you have to buy a new computer next year, the company has got to
have enough money to buy that computer or it comes out of your pocket.
If you need a new car or new software or new blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, that all, that, that all.
And then what it, your employees too, because everyone else
gets paid before you do.
So, you know, those are all important, you know, as you calculate your shop rate and
what is stuff worth and all that stuff.
It's
so good to hear you say that like that's like the method that we Practice and teach
and it's not different than than any like it shouldn't be any different for anybody
else out there, which is nice Even at the the level of the game that you're at
like, yeah, cuz typical you sell prices software doesn't work It's but we have a
we have a spreadsheet that we go through and then there's a fudge factor into that
Saying, you know, you know, again, it goes back to your five questions because you
know, stuff is always going to go wrong.
It's always going to, you know, what happens if we make it two
feet taller because it needs to be.
Does the customer have to pay for that?
Uh, the answer is yes, but up front.
Not after the fact.
I want to hear more about the inner workings of what you and Pete have there.
You know, you just mentioned that a typical sign shop software
doesn't work for your shop.
That you're using a spreadsheet of some sort.
Talk to me about some of the tech stack that you use to make
the imagination station work.
That your dream team work.
Tell me about it.
Well, number one is we, we try and pay our help better than the industry
by far because they're there.
They're that creative and they're valuable.
A lot of people say, oh, staff is nothing but a cost.
Staff is your most valuable asset.
I mean, I get to sign the jobs and I get all the credit.
But I don't do the work, you know, there's pieces that I don't even
touch that come into our shop that have my signature on them.
So, number one is, is the value of those guys is incredible.
Secondly, is, is, uh, have the best equipment, you know.
A shop router is cool, but a multicam will do it better and faster.
But you got to price accordingly and technology has screwed up the industry
to I, one of the examples I give is, is, uh, you know, let's say Peter does
science and you carve them by hand.
And you, Brian, you have a ShopBot, which is a great machine,
and I've got a Multicam, which does stuff three times as fast.
So, Peter sells a sign for, for, pick a number, for 5, 000.
And he puts a whole week into that job.
Now you can do the job and half the time because you've got a
nice little computer to help you.
And if you charge the shop, the same shop rate, you're selling the sign for 2, 500.
And my machine is, is twice as fast again.
So if I sell the same, same shop rate, 1, 250.
That's what's wrong with the sign industry.
It's all driven by,
like, the equipment.
It's by stupid thinking.
That says the shop rate is, a shop rate is not a shop rate.
It's, you know, the way I look at it is if it takes me, uh, I figure my, my
CNC router can carve a sign five times as fast as I can carve a sign by hand.
And I'm fast.
So if, if I charge 200 bucks an hour, which is not unreasonable in this time,
as a shop rate, That sign should be worth a thousand bucks an hour on the machine,
which is not unreasonable because it's a hundred thousand dollar sheet and you
should be charging that kind of money.
And the customer doesn't need to know if I carved it by hand or did on the machine.
Right.
That's what I was getting
at.
That's the point that I want to make, right?
Customer doesn't do it.
And I, I make, purposely make my signs on the machine look
like they were done by hand.
We introduce texture and, and do a little bit of hand work after it, hand paint
them, so that it is a handcrafted sign.
That I cheated like crazy.
But to me, it's having a machine in the back is no different
than having employees help me.
But it doesn't, yeah, it doesn't make the sun any less valuable to the customer.
Not
at all.
In fact, it should make it better.
Right.
You know, and, and same thing, like we use a 30 pound precision board
and in the industry, especially 10 years ago, that was unheard of.
Everyone used 15 pound or 18 pound.
Yep.
Uh, and people say, well, 30 pound is twice the money.
Is Yeah.
To buy it.
Yeah, I agree.
I don't disagree with that, but it adds three times the value because
I mean, people say, well, how do you sell to your expensive work?
And it's simple.
I said, I have a piece of thir 15 pound in my shop, which I can take and run my
fingernail into in front of my customer.
I don't tell 'em my fingernails are as tough as screwdriver, but I run my finger
and make this horrible scratch in it.
I, and then I hand my customer a piece of 30 pound little
sample and he can't touch it.
Is will you, will you pay a hundred bucks for that?
And he went, absolutely.
Well, guess what?
I just made money and I'm selling a better product and I'm setting
myself apart from my competition.
Yeah.
It's never about price at all.
Not at all.
You know, and in these days of hyperinflation, I mean, I had a customer
come to me, I bid a job last year.
They didn't do it.
They came back this year and they say, we're expecting an increase,
um, but can you do the job this year?
Yes.
It's 20 percent more.
They went, okay.
Right.
Don't apologize for anything.
Be proud of what you do.
Right.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
If that's the message that everybody takes away from this, a hundred
percent, um, As we transition into a close, I, we always ask everybody
this, but what's the, what's the future for you for Imagination Corporation?
Straight up.
Straight?
I'm, I'm more encouraged than ever, you know, as I go through
Sinecraft or the competition.
Uh, magazine, the article or, uh, issues of the magazines.
I think the quality is improving in general.
There's still lots of crap out there, but I don't, that's, I don't have competition.
I'm not worried about them.
I want to raise the industry.
Because the more I raise the industry, the hap, the better it is for me.
I'm encouraged, but sign materials are better than they've ever been in terms of
durability and, you know, all that stuff.
The internet has allowed us to market worldwide.
I don't, there's no limit.
Great answer.
Uh, like personally for you, Dan, like what, what do you
want to be remembered for?
I want to be remembered as, as a fun guy who inspired people.
Hopefully I'm remembered for cool work, but it won't last forever.
But and I want to be a family guy.
I want to be the best grandpa in the world Uh, and I think we're
doing pretty good in that regard so
How many grandkids
do you have?
I have three.
Uh, the youngest one will probably be the guy who uh takes over the
business He's five years old.
Uh henry, we built a little wooden dinosaur a few months ago and He had fun.
We did it in our shop.
He cut out with a jigsaw.
I mean he's five years old And we screwed it together And when we were
finished, he looked at me and he said, Grandpa, he says, this is pretty
cool, but I think we can do better.
He said, I said, so what do you want?
He says, I want a dinosaur that I can get in and drive.
It has to have a motor.
Uh, you know, and so we built one for the parade on a golf cart.
You know, that's the guy that, you know, he's going to stand on his dad's
shoulders who's standing on my shoulders.
Imagine where we're going to do then.
I mean, this is a kid who grew up and built a 50 foot dinosaur in his sleep.
Wow.
Yeah, that's,
that's amazing.
So am I excited about the future?
Absolutely.
Uh, and I won't be able to keep up to those guys.
Right.
Yeah.
How
could you at at five, he's like, Hey, this is good grandpa, but what if we do this
love?
Yeah.
I mean, at at two, he, he would come to me every day.
Am I big?
I said, oh, yeah, you, you, I've definitely grown since last
night, you know, and we'd measure him and he'd be all excited.
So, so can I learn the weld today, ? Uh, not yet, but soon.
It, uh,
that's great.
That's great.
I super excited to,
didn't weld until I was in my twenties.
Yeah.
And he's ready.
He's ready now.
That's great.
Well, Dan, um, man, this has been a great conversation.
I really appreciate you coming on.
This has been, um, like when we first started the podcast, I was
like, I was making the short list of folks that I wanted to talk to.
You were definitely right up there at the top.
Uh, so I appreciate you coming on.
Uh, been a big inspiration for me.
Yeah.
Keep interviewing the best of the best.
I mean, we're all saying the same thing.
His reach for the stars.
Don't do crap.
Uh, you know, Dan Antonelli's is designed like your life depends on it.
Absolutely.
Yeah, it's
amazing how different business models can be, but the core values remain the same.
Yeah, Dan and I do very different stuff, but Dan has been a hero of mine forever.
You know, I mean, Shane Durnford, hero forever, you know, Tom McEltrot,
you know, these guys are all.
Excellence beyond excellence.
Um, any, anything we can promote for you or, you know, obviously I think everybody
in the industry already knows who you guys
are.
Yeah, no, just, just good, promote good stuff, you know, raise the bar, build
samples, uh, live, live your dream.
You know, if you want to do the good stuff, start building samples today,
you know, put five minutes into it.
It adds up.
Perfect device.
Um, Dan, thank you so much for coming on.
Really enjoyed it.
Uh, excited to, to launch this one and hopefully, you know, sometime
in the future, we can have you back.
Uh, and maybe bring Peter on as well.
I think that could be an interesting review
as well.
He's a much better guy than me.
Is he still sitting beside you?
No, he, he went, they're busy working.
That's even better.
He's not sitting beside you and you're still singing his praises.
No,
he's, he is awesome.
He's my, he's my ultimate hero.
Oh, that's
great to hear.
Dan, thank you so much.
I
appreciate it.
My pleasure.
So that's the episode.
I hope you enjoyed it.
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