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Learn how to build a better sign and
print shop from a few crusty sign

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guys who've made more mistakes than
they care to admit conversations

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and advice on pricing, sales,
marketing, workflow, growth, and more.

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You're listening to the better sign shop
podcast with your hosts, Peter Kourounis,

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Michael Riley, and Brian Gillespie.

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Before we jump into the episode,
I'd like to give a shout out to

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our sponsor, GCI digital printing,
grand format printer to the trade.

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GCI is not your average print shop.

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They pride themselves on
providing you a fast, stress

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free experience when outsourcing.

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Their no excuses mindset means no matter
the job, they'll have it done every time.

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No other vendor will go to the
lengths that GCI does to ensure

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you're a satisfied customer.

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To hear more about their approach
to business, hop back into the

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archives to episode 9 where the guys
and I interview owner TJ Bedacht

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about top tier customer experience.

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If you're looking for a high quality trade
printer for banners, mesh, coroplast, and

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more, TJ and his crew will have your back.

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For jobs big or small, GCI does them all.

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Check them out at PrintGCI.

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com.

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Welcome back to another edition of the
better sign shop podcast as always.

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Well, not as always today,
I'm flying solo Bryant here.

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Uh, I've got an extra special guest
is somebody that I have looked up

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to for a long time in the industry.

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I used to read every article
that the guest today published,

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uh, his work has always been,
um, Very inspirational for me.

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So, really excited to
chat with our guest, Mr.

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Dan Sawatzky of Imagination Corporation.

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Uh, this should be a great conversation.

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Uh, I hate that Peter
and Michael are not here.

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Uh, They're just going
to miss out on the fun.

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So without further ado, our
extra special guests, Mr.

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Dan Sawatsky from Imagination Corporation.

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All right, guys, we are joined by our
extra special guest and hero of mine and

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Peter's, uh, Michael, I don't know where
you're at, man, but you're missing out.

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We've got Mr.

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Dan Sawatsky, legend in the sign industry.

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I super excited to have you on Dan.

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I really don't think you need
an introduction here, but, uh, I

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just wanted to say It's been very
inspirational for me over the years,

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reading all of your magazine articles,
looking at your work, studying it.

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Uh, so it's really a treat to
have you on to the podcast.

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Thanks for joining us.

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Thank you so much.

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So I'm

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sure that there are going to be
a lot of listeners out there that

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know who you are, Dan, that know
your work, that have seen your work.

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But for those of our listeners
that don't want, don't you tell

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us a little bit about yourself and
your business and your background.

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Okay, I've been in the sign
business practically forever.

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I started at age 14.

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I lived in a very small town and my
brother entered a competition to paint

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windows for for an event and he won 15.

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This was back in the late
sixties, 15 was a fortune.

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Something that took my dad, um,
a better part of a day to earn.

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And, uh, we could do it in an hour.

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So it was like, Holy cow.

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This is a cool business.

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So I was 14 years old.

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I got my mom's Christmas cards and I
made up a sample book and I hitchhiked

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to town because I was too young to drive.

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And, uh, sold, uh, windows in that first
year I made 600 bucks after school while

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I was still in grade 10 and it was,
uh, I couldn't think of a better way

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to make a living than, than do that.

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So, so

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at 14,

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that's amazing.

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And it pulled it off again the next year
and made double that or triple that.

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I can't remember.

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It was a long time ago.

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And then I started a sign
shop still in high school.

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Uh, made horrible science and, uh,
really horrible, um, and right from

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the start, I wasn't satisfied with.

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I mean, I did my 1st truck and the 2nd
door on the truck absolutely bored me.

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Um, so I was determined
not to be that sign writer.

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But instead, do creative stuff.

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So, I mean, uh, MDO comes in 4x8 sheets,
but you don't have to sell it that way.

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They, uh, they make jigsaws to fix that.

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So, we were cutting our stuff out and
layering it right from the very start.

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And that's all we've sold
is, I've never sold, or sold

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very, very few ordinary signs.

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Uh, or that term ordinary and

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I don't think I've ever seen anything
that you've done that ordinary

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and that's no, I mean, I mean, I
asked when I did my workshops, I asked

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people, what percentage of your work
would you be happy to see in a trade

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magazine or enter into a competition?

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And most people are happy with 2%, 5%.

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Which boggles my mind is
like, why can't it be 95%?

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Cause you can't hit a hundred,
but you can do pretty close.

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So that's what we did.

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That from the start and
people say, Oh, that's cool.

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You can say no to, to ordinary stuff now,
but I've always said no to ordinary stuff.

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And you know, I mean, you asked
Dan and Nelly, what do you do if

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a customer comes to you with a
horrible idea that his nephew drew?

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Oh, and my solution is, is, uh, try and
explain that that's not going to work for

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him, try and sell them something better.

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And if, if they won't go, don't do
it, walk away because tomorrow you're

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known for exactly what you do today.

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So.

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I don't want to be the bottom feeder.

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I want to be the top cutting edge.

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Yeah,

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that makes sense.

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So, you, in high school, you
started your shop, you said

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you made some horrible signs.

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Like, what was, what was, do any
of those projects stick out to you?

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Like, what was, what was the horrible
sign that you were like, okay, like,

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this is not where we want to be.

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Like, this is actually what we want to do.

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Well, I mean, everything was
hand drawn in those days.

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And, I mean, I was broke.

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I had no money, you know, like every kid.

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And, and the layouts weren't that good.

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The brushwork was horrible.

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They were always done in a hurry
because I was always in a hurry

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and, uh, the science reflected that.

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But, but as I, you know, we try and
raise the bar with every single project.

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So.

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When you do that, your signs get
much better in a real big hurry.

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Was there, was there any like particular
project when you were first starting out

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that was like, okay, like we've raised
the bar here and, and like what that it

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does, are there any that stick out to
you when you first got started that were

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like, Hey, we've taken a big leap here.

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And what that project was like.

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Well, every single project, uh, I mean,
you become known for as a creative

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problem solver and so every project
quickly becomes out of your reach.

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I mean, every project, even to this
day, we bid project not having a

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clue how we're going to pull it off.

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Um, but we always do.

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We don't always make money,
but we always pull it off.

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Yeah.

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That's the curse of the sign maker, right?

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Yeah.

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We can do that.

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We'll

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figure it out.

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Yeah.

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I mean, I mean, it used to be this sign
shop is what that's where you went.

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If you wanted something creative,
if you wanted a parade float, if you

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wanted, you know, something unusual
to make your business stand out.

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You go see your local sign guy.

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Now you go for a vinyl sign that
everybody else does, which is sad.

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Agreed.

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Agreed.

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Uh, so, like, tell us about
Imagination Corporation today.

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Like, what does the business look like
today versus back when you first started?

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I mean, Imagination Corporation
started out very small.

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It was just my wife and I.

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She helped out.

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And we would do stuff.

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My son Peter worked with
me since he was little.

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I mean, Imagination Corporation,
my journey has been, uh, various.

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In this big circle, it's it, I started out
doing window splashes, went to fine art.

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Um, I worked with some 40
galleries and stuff from there.

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I went in always doing
signs on the side at least.

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Uh, and then went into historical murals.

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I've done 125 all across
Canada and the US.

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And then I discovered, uh, as, as my
quest to do wilder things, the theme park

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industry has been a huge part of our.

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Our repertoire and the tourism
industry because you can sell

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more creative work there.

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Most often I haven't
sold work in my own town.

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Like, you know, people say
to me, Oh, I could never sell

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work like you make in my town.

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Well, I can.

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You know, and why do they bypass you to
phone me and I'm a thousand miles away?

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Is because that's what I'm known for.

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And I think more people could do
the creative stuff if they, if

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they just put their heart into it.

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Start with your own sign.

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Your, your, the, every sign shop should
have an award winning sign up front.

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You know, the best they can do.

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Even if it takes them
five years to make it.

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In their spare time.

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There's no reason why you
shouldn't have that kind of sign.

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And if you walk the walk yourself,
people want to buy into that success.

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And how do they do it
is they buy your work.

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So, you know, I, and then
promote it on the internet.

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I think it's easier
than it ever used to be.

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You know, before people could only
find me in the phone book or if

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00:10:15,015 --> 00:10:16,454
they happen to drive by a sign.

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00:10:16,925 --> 00:10:21,795
Now they type in creative sign and chances
are mine will pop up or dimensional sign.

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No matter where you are.

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So it's

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00:10:25,780 --> 00:10:28,630
again, with the internet,
it's become easier to share

187
00:10:28,630 --> 00:10:29,060
your work.

188
00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:30,280
I believe so.

189
00:10:31,310 --> 00:10:37,039
I mean, in, in 19, no, 2008,
when that 2009, the big

190
00:10:37,039 --> 00:10:39,920
downturn, uh, it affected us too.

191
00:10:40,550 --> 00:10:44,319
And there was a ton of many,
many weeks I went out to the shop

192
00:10:44,329 --> 00:10:46,579
and there was literally no work.

193
00:10:46,939 --> 00:10:48,079
So, so what do you do?

194
00:10:48,585 --> 00:10:53,595
Uh, build a sample, build your own
sign, uh, and that year I, I committed

195
00:10:53,595 --> 00:11:00,305
to doing 12 major samples which are
still hanging on my wall with the

196
00:11:00,305 --> 00:11:05,125
intent of, of when, when things improve,
I'll have the samples to sell work

197
00:11:05,135 --> 00:11:06,964
because how do I describe what I did?

198
00:11:06,974 --> 00:11:08,475
Like, it's impossible
to describe what I did.

199
00:11:08,475 --> 00:11:08,681
Yeah.

200
00:11:08,681 --> 00:11:09,504
I gotta show people.

201
00:11:09,505 --> 00:11:09,565
Yeah.

202
00:11:09,565 --> 00:11:10,345
I gotta show people what I did.

203
00:11:13,435 --> 00:11:17,655
So, those samples, I mean, I
sent them into competitions,

204
00:11:17,685 --> 00:11:20,425
I sent them to Sinecraft, you
probably read articles on them.

205
00:11:20,964 --> 00:11:24,485
Uh, you know, a lot of the work
that is featured in the magazines.

206
00:11:25,435 --> 00:11:29,435
Uh, is stuff that we've
done as samples, um, or

207
00:11:29,435 --> 00:11:32,715
even just the pieces that you were
doing on your own home on like your CNC

208
00:11:32,725 --> 00:11:35,035
router were like mind blowing for me.

209
00:11:35,395 --> 00:11:38,225
Yeah, again, I, our site
shop is in our backyard.

210
00:11:38,795 --> 00:11:39,955
I've always worked from home.

211
00:11:39,984 --> 00:11:41,385
That's a conscious choice.

212
00:11:41,415 --> 00:11:41,844
I made.

213
00:11:42,030 --> 00:11:47,630
Before kids even came along and,
and, uh, it's been a great choice.

214
00:11:47,689 --> 00:11:50,530
So I'm, I'm in a residential area.

215
00:11:50,550 --> 00:11:51,949
I have residential zoning.

216
00:11:52,250 --> 00:11:57,290
How do you, and so the, the city says
I can only put a very small sign up

217
00:11:57,290 --> 00:12:01,220
front, but it doesn't, the city didn't
tell me what kind of house I can build.

218
00:12:01,500 --> 00:12:06,330
So, I mean, people screech to a stop in
front of my house, and they're out there

219
00:12:06,330 --> 00:12:09,610
taking pictures, and then they see my
little sign, and you see them whip out

220
00:12:09,610 --> 00:12:15,149
their phone, and Google my name, and
boom, they know who I am, they know what

221
00:12:15,150 --> 00:12:16,649
I do, they know where I've done my work.

222
00:12:17,269 --> 00:12:17,759
How

223
00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:18,920
tremendous is that?

224
00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:21,130
That's like, that's the
definition in my book?

225
00:12:21,415 --> 00:12:23,025
Of living outside the box.

226
00:12:24,145 --> 00:12:25,365
Yeah, I mean, I

227
00:12:25,365 --> 00:12:29,585
mean, if I could say if I
could put a title, I mean, you

228
00:12:29,585 --> 00:12:30,505
probably have a different one.

229
00:12:30,505 --> 00:12:33,495
But if when it went, when, when
the good Lord above calls your

230
00:12:33,495 --> 00:12:38,945
name, I would put on your tombstone
that quote living outside the box.

231
00:12:39,285 --> 00:12:43,704
Was a lifestyle to me, to me, that's
exactly that's exactly what I've

232
00:12:43,704 --> 00:12:47,415
learned from you over the years is
how to look at things differently.

233
00:12:48,314 --> 00:12:48,914
Exactly.

234
00:12:48,925 --> 00:12:51,314
Not not necessarily in 2 D.

235
00:12:51,415 --> 00:12:53,415
not necessarily even even 3 D.

236
00:12:53,425 --> 00:12:57,835
nowadays, like, we're, we're looking
at things differently each and every

237
00:12:57,835 --> 00:13:05,145
day, but you had this vision so
beyond the typical sign shop owner.

238
00:13:05,165 --> 00:13:08,664
I don't even, I would, I would, I
would probably go as far as to say,

239
00:13:08,664 --> 00:13:10,364
you're not even a sign shop anymore.

240
00:13:11,025 --> 00:13:12,704
Uh, you, I don't think you ever

241
00:13:12,704 --> 00:13:13,305
have been.

242
00:13:13,485 --> 00:13:16,365
I still consider myself a sign
shop, but not an ordinary sign.

243
00:13:17,295 --> 00:13:19,725
And, and it, I mean, it's interesting.

244
00:13:20,545 --> 00:13:24,285
I, I don't believe I can sell my
work either in terms of if you,

245
00:13:24,290 --> 00:13:25,954
if I, I don't do cold calls.

246
00:13:25,984 --> 00:13:27,244
I've tried in the past.

247
00:13:27,275 --> 00:13:31,725
They don't work for me because I can't
sell you something unless you want.

248
00:13:33,100 --> 00:13:36,770
And most people, they're thinking of
an ordinary sign for a set amount of

249
00:13:36,770 --> 00:13:42,000
dollars where I showcase my work and
people drive up my driveway regularly.

250
00:13:42,260 --> 00:13:48,519
In fact, on weekends, I have to keep my
gates closed or my yard is full of people.

251
00:13:48,879 --> 00:13:54,130
And if 100 90 of them
will go away with nothing.

252
00:13:54,845 --> 00:13:55,605
I'll send them away.

253
00:13:56,065 --> 00:13:59,815
They'll, they'll look and they'll look and
it's like, Oh, that's kind of out there.

254
00:14:00,315 --> 00:14:03,284
Or it's, you know, and
they know it's not Walmart.

255
00:14:03,284 --> 00:14:04,225
It's not going to be cheap.

256
00:14:04,385 --> 00:14:08,745
Everything is custom, you know, and
everything is obviously expensive.

257
00:14:09,144 --> 00:14:12,425
So 90 percent will price
themselves off my yard immediately.

258
00:14:14,144 --> 00:14:19,095
And, and then 10, 10 of those people will,
I'll talk to in depth, maybe give them

259
00:14:19,095 --> 00:14:20,915
a little tour of the shop, my studio.

260
00:14:21,399 --> 00:14:28,230
Four of those will go to design,
one will be, one will build and,

261
00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:33,130
and we actually, uh, qualify our
customers with five questions.

262
00:14:34,829 --> 00:14:41,700
Everyone who gets to that,
into that small 10 or 4%, we

263
00:14:41,700 --> 00:14:43,100
actually have a test for them.

264
00:14:43,490 --> 00:14:45,609
They don't know they're being
tested, but I'm interviewing.

265
00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:48,670
Sit down in my studio
and let's have a chat.

266
00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:50,710
It's the same way I test employees.

267
00:14:50,710 --> 00:14:53,990
They don't know they're running
a test, but everything's a test.

268
00:14:54,550 --> 00:14:57,610
And so, in my mind, I'm
asking five questions.

269
00:14:58,219 --> 00:15:02,150
And I'll interview the customer or
prospective customer, preferably

270
00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:03,719
my son and I do it together.

271
00:15:04,300 --> 00:15:08,930
And then, uh, we send them away and
say, we'll call you in a few days and

272
00:15:08,930 --> 00:15:11,410
let you know if you are a customer.

273
00:15:12,140 --> 00:15:13,060
I love that.

274
00:15:13,060 --> 00:15:15,309
You guys are like totally
flipping this script

275
00:15:16,260 --> 00:15:18,599
and the five questions are,
and the customer doesn't

276
00:15:18,599 --> 00:15:19,490
know what the questions are.

277
00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:21,040
This is questions we asking.

278
00:15:21,530 --> 00:15:23,739
Inside the studio.

279
00:15:23,739 --> 00:15:25,530
Wait, are they the same five questions?

280
00:15:25,780 --> 00:15:27,839
Yes, they are.

281
00:15:27,839 --> 00:15:29,129
Would you like to share
them with us here today?

282
00:15:29,139 --> 00:15:29,629
Yes, sure.

283
00:15:29,649 --> 00:15:30,219
I'd love to.

284
00:15:30,790 --> 00:15:32,950
First question is, will it be fun?

285
00:15:34,380 --> 00:15:35,089
Will it make me laugh?

286
00:15:35,089 --> 00:15:35,900
Will it be fun?

287
00:15:36,149 --> 00:15:37,010
Will it be fun?

288
00:15:37,380 --> 00:15:39,020
Life is too short to not have fun.

289
00:15:39,740 --> 00:15:40,530
So the job has

290
00:15:40,749 --> 00:15:43,450
to be Wait, is Will it be fun
and will it make you laugh?

291
00:15:43,549 --> 00:15:43,689
Is

292
00:15:44,869 --> 00:15:45,450
that the Same question.

293
00:15:45,450 --> 00:15:46,149
Same question.

294
00:15:46,329 --> 00:15:46,700
Okay.

295
00:15:46,710 --> 00:15:47,000
Okay.

296
00:15:47,629 --> 00:15:49,680
Is it going to be fun
for us and our staff?

297
00:15:50,089 --> 00:15:51,530
You know, are we going to love this job?

298
00:15:53,290 --> 00:15:56,400
Next question is, do we
have creative control?

299
00:15:58,100 --> 00:16:01,550
If the customer is going to tell me how
to do the job, they're not my customer.

300
00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:04,470
It doesn't mean I ignore my customer.

301
00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:06,970
It means that I have creative control.

302
00:16:06,970 --> 00:16:08,960
You've come to me as an expert.

303
00:16:08,990 --> 00:16:09,859
Please trust me.

304
00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:12,079
If you don't trust me,
you're not my customer.

305
00:16:12,190 --> 00:16:12,590
Go away.

306
00:16:13,220 --> 00:16:16,390
So if you bring me nephew art and
you insist on your nephew art,

307
00:16:17,230 --> 00:16:18,640
thank you so much for coming in.

308
00:16:18,740 --> 00:16:19,400
I'll see you around.

309
00:16:20,930 --> 00:16:22,230
And you have to be that brutal.

310
00:16:23,215 --> 00:16:25,455
Because if you put out a piece
of crap, you're, that's what

311
00:16:25,455 --> 00:16:26,465
you're known for immediately.

312
00:16:27,725 --> 00:16:29,715
Let's say, yeah, you don't
want to slap your name on it.

313
00:16:30,705 --> 00:16:32,325
Third question, do we have time?

314
00:16:33,335 --> 00:16:37,605
I mean, right now we're booked
into 2024 and pushing into 2025.

315
00:16:38,244 --> 00:16:40,864
So if you're not willing, if
you come to me as a customer

316
00:16:40,864 --> 00:16:42,215
and you need a sign next week.

317
00:16:42,744 --> 00:16:44,915
Thank you so much for coming
in, but you're not my customer.

318
00:16:44,915 --> 00:16:46,285
Please come when you have more time.

319
00:16:46,354 --> 00:16:50,994
And I have more time because I'm
not going to, I don't work overtime

320
00:16:50,994 --> 00:16:53,544
in my shop and neither do my staff.

321
00:16:54,984 --> 00:16:58,854
So, uh, your time crunch
is not my problem.

322
00:16:58,974 --> 00:16:59,714
That's your problem.

323
00:17:01,035 --> 00:17:04,704
You know, go get a temporary sign,
pay a deposit and get on my list.

324
00:17:06,319 --> 00:17:09,339
Cause that's the only way to get on
my list is, is a sizable deposit.

325
00:17:11,300 --> 00:17:11,550
Nice.

326
00:17:11,550 --> 00:17:14,280
And you guys are booking
into 2025 already.

327
00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:19,129
We're not full in 2024, but some
projects already going into 2025

328
00:17:19,129 --> 00:17:20,950
and we're designing into 2026.

329
00:17:22,969 --> 00:17:23,510
Amazing.

330
00:17:23,789 --> 00:17:24,119
All right.

331
00:17:24,289 --> 00:17:24,649
So

332
00:17:24,679 --> 00:17:25,560
what's the next question?

333
00:17:25,589 --> 00:17:26,439
Fourth question.

334
00:17:26,499 --> 00:17:28,129
Is the project good for us?

335
00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:30,710
Will it raise our bar?

336
00:17:30,980 --> 00:17:32,610
Will it improve our reputation?

337
00:17:33,169 --> 00:17:34,629
Cause we know it's good for the customer.

338
00:17:34,629 --> 00:17:36,090
It's going to bring
them a ton of business.

339
00:17:36,100 --> 00:17:37,560
He'll make hopefully a ton of money.

340
00:17:38,199 --> 00:17:41,460
Based on the sign we do for him,
but is the project good for us?

341
00:17:42,260 --> 00:17:44,210
Does it take us in a
direction we want to go

342
00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:48,330
and do you physically ask
them that question or like

343
00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:49,469
these are questions?

344
00:17:49,469 --> 00:17:51,609
Okay, based on the interview in turn.

345
00:17:51,909 --> 00:17:54,929
I'll beat around that but in
turn, okay This is questions

346
00:17:54,969 --> 00:17:57,999
Pete and I ask each other gotcha.

347
00:17:58,009 --> 00:18:00,544
And the last question we ask
is is there enough money?

348
00:18:01,125 --> 00:18:05,925
Because we know we're going to change
things as the sign goes through, we know

349
00:18:05,925 --> 00:18:08,755
that we're going to make mistakes, or
things are going to go wrong, or it's

350
00:18:08,755 --> 00:18:10,045
going to take longer than we think.

351
00:18:10,085 --> 00:18:12,395
It always does, especially
in a complex project.

352
00:18:13,445 --> 00:18:16,834
So that has to be built in from the
start, because it quotes a quote.

353
00:18:17,395 --> 00:18:18,965
And we never increase our price.

354
00:18:19,765 --> 00:18:20,175
Well, okay.

355
00:18:20,175 --> 00:18:20,305
So

356
00:18:20,305 --> 00:18:22,295
I have, I have 2 follow
up questions to that.

357
00:18:22,425 --> 00:18:28,135
The 1st 1 is ever since you put that
policy in place, those 5 questions,

358
00:18:28,145 --> 00:18:32,774
have you ever the 1st question is, have
you ever deviated from those answers?

359
00:18:32,845 --> 00:18:33,205
Yes.

360
00:18:33,205 --> 00:18:34,824
And we read it every single time.

361
00:18:36,645 --> 00:18:37,004
Yes.

362
00:18:37,004 --> 00:18:38,474
And you've regretted it every single time.

363
00:18:38,475 --> 00:18:38,715
Okay.

364
00:18:38,715 --> 00:18:41,185
So, as a follow up to that,
I would like to hear about.

365
00:18:42,110 --> 00:18:43,780
Why that has bothered you?

366
00:18:43,790 --> 00:18:44,760
Like, what was it?

367
00:18:44,820 --> 00:18:46,659
Is it the interaction with the customer?

368
00:18:46,659 --> 00:18:48,520
Did it not meet those

369
00:18:48,990 --> 00:18:49,810
qualifications?

370
00:18:50,139 --> 00:18:55,039
Either I didn't make money or because
I wanted the job too bad and I bid

371
00:18:55,039 --> 00:18:58,120
it too low, or it won't satisfy me.

372
00:18:58,159 --> 00:18:59,709
And I knew I could have done better.

373
00:18:59,829 --> 00:19:00,970
And that drives me nuts.

374
00:19:02,409 --> 00:19:03,620
And you thought you could have did better.

375
00:19:03,620 --> 00:19:04,860
And that drives you nuts.

376
00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:11,800
Was it, was it just like a low
Lear project or was it just like

377
00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:14,339
the, the clients kind of demands?

378
00:19:14,439 --> 00:19:14,839
Yeah.

379
00:19:15,060 --> 00:19:20,800
I mean, I do a lot of the sales or
first initiation and we, we ask these

380
00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:25,370
questions and then we'll do a run at the
design where I do a run at the design

381
00:19:26,130 --> 00:19:29,310
with Peter looking on my shoulder or my
daughter back looking on my shoulder.

382
00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:31,429
And they go, Oh, that's cute dad.

383
00:19:31,469 --> 00:19:32,969
But what if we did this?

384
00:19:34,124 --> 00:19:36,164
And it becomes that much crazier.

385
00:19:37,304 --> 00:19:40,864
And then the question we ask
ourselves is are we willing to risk

386
00:19:40,884 --> 00:19:42,614
the job to do that kind of work?

387
00:19:44,054 --> 00:19:47,564
And if the answer is yes, then
we don't even pitch the lesser

388
00:19:47,564 --> 00:19:52,475
design We only pitch the cool one
because most times we go into a job.

389
00:19:52,504 --> 00:19:55,665
There is no budget If a customer
is concerned about money,

390
00:19:55,665 --> 00:19:56,625
there's not enough money.

391
00:19:57,735 --> 00:19:59,925
He's better off to go get
a plane signed somewhere.

392
00:20:00,435 --> 00:20:00,675
Okay.

393
00:20:00,675 --> 00:20:02,325
So this is my second question.

394
00:20:03,375 --> 00:20:04,364
You mentioned your son.

395
00:20:04,365 --> 00:20:07,264
I would assume your son is a
partner in this business with you.

396
00:20:07,455 --> 00:20:09,335
He's he's the majority owner.

397
00:20:09,335 --> 00:20:09,625
Now

398
00:20:10,175 --> 00:20:11,294
he's the majority owner now.

399
00:20:11,294 --> 00:20:11,554
Wow.

400
00:20:11,584 --> 00:20:12,314
Good for him.

401
00:20:12,625 --> 00:20:12,975
Yeah.

402
00:20:13,074 --> 00:20:13,574
Okay.

403
00:20:14,125 --> 00:20:15,914
We're going to have to go here soon.

404
00:20:16,204 --> 00:20:17,484
He's sitting right beside him here.

405
00:20:18,224 --> 00:20:20,265
I don't half a percent.

406
00:20:21,770 --> 00:20:25,010
You own a half of percent in the business.

407
00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:28,129
Why only a half?

408
00:20:28,190 --> 00:20:29,240
Okay, I have so many

409
00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:31,080
questions, but let me ask you this.

410
00:20:31,399 --> 00:20:32,879
I'm 69 years old.

411
00:20:32,899 --> 00:20:33,720
I don't need to own it.

412
00:20:35,730 --> 00:20:40,060
And man, besides he's better
than I am at everything.

413
00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:43,160
I mean, I trained him.

414
00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:45,730
I mean, how often do you get to
train your boss when you're little?

415
00:20:45,730 --> 00:20:48,370
And if he, if he, if he's
not good, it's my fault.

416
00:20:48,410 --> 00:20:49,189
I screwed up.

417
00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:51,350
Okay.

418
00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:55,110
That's the ultimate ownership
mentality right there.

419
00:20:55,795 --> 00:21:00,425
Has there ever been a time
where you and Pete saw a project

420
00:21:00,515 --> 00:21:02,085
differently and had a difference of

421
00:21:02,085 --> 00:21:03,465
opinion every single

422
00:21:03,465 --> 00:21:03,685
time?

423
00:21:03,695 --> 00:21:06,305
I mean, how do you come to a resolution?

424
00:21:07,695 --> 00:21:09,455
He's the owner I can defer to him.

425
00:21:10,005 --> 00:21:10,685
Okay, so it's

426
00:21:10,685 --> 00:21:12,115
just the amount of equity.

427
00:21:12,515 --> 00:21:13,574
There's no creative

428
00:21:13,604 --> 00:21:18,015
there Oh, I mean we argue and sometimes I
say look at the customer won't you know,

429
00:21:18,015 --> 00:21:24,835
like we just did a design for a mini golf
Uh, that was the owner wanted a logging

430
00:21:24,845 --> 00:21:32,595
theme and Peter pitched robot dinosaur
logging theme, which was very cool.

431
00:21:33,344 --> 00:21:37,764
And so, uh, I, I pitched, I said, I don't,
the customer's not going to go there.

432
00:21:37,935 --> 00:21:40,284
I don't, I don't think
so, but I did the drawing.

433
00:21:40,294 --> 00:21:44,744
Anyhow, we did a concept drawing
of, for both versions and the owner

434
00:21:44,775 --> 00:21:47,395
sadly didn't take it, which happens.

435
00:21:47,645 --> 00:21:48,174
I mean, I've got.

436
00:21:49,195 --> 00:21:53,235
Full of designs that have not yet
sold and the keyword is not yet

437
00:21:54,085 --> 00:21:55,875
because we can repitch it just

438
00:21:55,875 --> 00:21:58,635
in a different application
different type of idea.

439
00:21:58,964 --> 00:22:01,425
Yeah, there'll be a customer
that that is braver.

440
00:22:02,394 --> 00:22:02,644
So,

441
00:22:02,894 --> 00:22:03,665
what do you call that?

442
00:22:03,665 --> 00:22:04,954
You call that your, your

443
00:22:04,955 --> 00:22:05,915
secret stash?

444
00:22:06,425 --> 00:22:11,575
Yeah, we got, we got, there's
a lot of secrets that The dream

445
00:22:11,575 --> 00:22:14,145
stash, the imagination station.

446
00:22:14,725 --> 00:22:18,885
I mean, I'll never get to build
all the crazy ideas in my head.

447
00:22:19,024 --> 00:22:22,964
And nor will Peter, but we build a lot of

448
00:22:22,964 --> 00:22:23,184
them.

449
00:22:23,714 --> 00:22:26,335
Yeah, you guys have
gotten your fair share.

450
00:22:26,335 --> 00:22:26,845
I will say that.

451
00:22:27,064 --> 00:22:28,114
It's amazing.

452
00:22:29,014 --> 00:22:33,105
So do you do the concept drawings before?

453
00:22:33,499 --> 00:22:39,370
They do a deposit or like, Hey, we think
this could be a fit and like, Hey, you

454
00:22:39,370 --> 00:22:41,540
got to the deposit before we even do

455
00:22:42,550 --> 00:22:43,239
the teaser.

456
00:22:43,439 --> 00:22:48,949
But, but I explained to the customer
that, that an idea like design work

457
00:22:48,949 --> 00:22:50,770
needs to be paid for before I do it.

458
00:22:51,435 --> 00:22:54,215
Because I, once I show you
something, I can't take it back.

459
00:22:55,155 --> 00:22:58,885
And then that being said, I'll do
you a teaser with the understanding

460
00:22:58,895 --> 00:23:00,085
that you don't own this drawing.

461
00:23:00,085 --> 00:23:00,595
It's mine.

462
00:23:01,675 --> 00:23:03,185
If you want it, you have to pay for it.

463
00:23:04,245 --> 00:23:04,635
Gotcha.

464
00:23:05,335 --> 00:23:10,184
And then one drawing, I mean, most
times our design contracts are in

465
00:23:10,184 --> 00:23:12,084
the tens of thousands of dollars.

466
00:23:13,095 --> 00:23:16,314
So they'll get one free low res drawing.

467
00:23:16,889 --> 00:23:20,624
And then, and then once they pay
for design, they'll get their 15

468
00:23:20,624 --> 00:23:22,719
or 20 that's part of the package.

469
00:23:23,460 --> 00:23:23,880
Gotcha.

470
00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:25,210
Gotcha.

471
00:23:25,830 --> 00:23:32,029
It's such a totally different process than
like the average sign shop, which is why

472
00:23:32,029 --> 00:23:35,499
I was so excited for this conversation
because like you, you take the, the

473
00:23:35,499 --> 00:23:38,710
average model and like totally flip it

474
00:23:38,730 --> 00:23:39,409
on its head.

475
00:23:39,754 --> 00:23:44,354
Yeah, I mean, if you come to me and say,
I want a house number for my house, sorry,

476
00:23:44,354 --> 00:23:50,115
we just, you know, it's a small job for
us is, you know, just like 10 grand.

477
00:23:50,125 --> 00:23:53,504
So if you want to pay 10 grand for
a house number, that's fine, but

478
00:23:53,764 --> 00:23:56,044
nobody does because that's silly.

479
00:23:56,810 --> 00:24:00,930
But we'll, if you want us to design
your house and do all the fancy crazy,

480
00:24:01,060 --> 00:24:04,490
you know, and house numbers part of
it, and there's a package that's, you

481
00:24:04,490 --> 00:24:10,290
know, 50, 000, let's stop and, and the
house number won't come in at 10, 000,

482
00:24:10,389 --> 00:24:13,520
it'll come in at, you know, a thousand
bucks as part of a bigger package.

483
00:24:15,809 --> 00:24:19,250
So, like, what type of
projects are you guys?

484
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:21,000
Doing most now?

485
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,190
Is it still like theme parks and, and like

486
00:24:23,190 --> 00:24:24,270
tours and stuff forth?

487
00:24:24,270 --> 00:24:24,660
Theme are, yeah.

488
00:24:24,665 --> 00:24:26,910
Theme parks, uh, are a big part of it.

489
00:24:27,290 --> 00:24:32,659
And, um, I, I was a keynote speaker at
a theme park convention five years ago,

490
00:24:33,270 --> 00:24:35,189
and in the, and this was in Florida.

491
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,219
There was, I don't, there was
40,000 people that convention.

492
00:24:38,225 --> 00:24:41,850
It was big and in the
audience was a farmer.

493
00:24:42,489 --> 00:24:44,209
And he said, come to my farm.

494
00:24:44,509 --> 00:24:45,879
And I went, okay, cool.

495
00:24:46,310 --> 00:24:48,159
Come to your farm, you
know, here's my fee.

496
00:24:48,159 --> 00:24:52,239
And he said, fine, we need, you need
to book three days plus travel time.

497
00:24:52,310 --> 00:24:54,439
So it was five days in Nebraska.

498
00:24:55,179 --> 00:25:00,559
Turns out this firm has seized,
uh, upwards of they're gonna hit

499
00:25:00,569 --> 00:25:04,899
half a million guests pretty quick
in six weeks on an annual basis.

500
00:25:05,730 --> 00:25:09,370
And now we do a semi load of
signs for them every year.

501
00:25:10,345 --> 00:25:16,294
And that farm is, the farm business is
a cool business and they share, I just

502
00:25:16,294 --> 00:25:20,924
spoke at another conference, a farm,
tourism farm conference in the spring.

503
00:25:21,340 --> 00:25:26,110
And we now have, I think, 15 farms
that we're doing design work for.

504
00:25:27,390 --> 00:25:27,680
Wow.

505
00:25:27,780 --> 00:25:28,650
And is it just like

506
00:25:28,650 --> 00:25:31,790
a, like they, like a tourism farm?

507
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:33,089
Like people come in to...

508
00:25:33,120 --> 00:25:33,710
Pumpkin farms,

509
00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:34,200
you know.

510
00:25:34,490 --> 00:25:34,870
Oh,

511
00:25:34,870 --> 00:25:35,439
oh, gotcha.

512
00:25:35,439 --> 00:25:35,939
Oh, okay.

513
00:25:35,939 --> 00:25:36,189
Gotcha.

514
00:25:36,210 --> 00:25:36,560
Okay.

515
00:25:36,780 --> 00:25:37,260
Makes sense.

516
00:25:37,510 --> 00:25:39,689
And the apple cider is and
all that kind of stuff.

517
00:25:39,759 --> 00:25:40,839
Uh, gotcha.

518
00:25:40,839 --> 00:25:41,179
Yeah.

519
00:25:41,300 --> 00:25:41,599
Okay.

520
00:25:41,599 --> 00:25:44,040
Like corn mazes and pumpkin patches.

521
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:44,580
Okay.

522
00:25:44,990 --> 00:25:47,850
I mean, that's a business I didn't
know existed five years ago.

523
00:25:49,190 --> 00:25:52,530
Yeah, yeah, those are increasingly
popular in my area in the

524
00:25:52,540 --> 00:25:53,760
backwoods of West Virginia.

525
00:25:53,770 --> 00:25:58,460
So I can imagine outside
of a major market, it would

526
00:25:58,469 --> 00:25:59,760
be a very sizable business.

527
00:26:01,079 --> 00:26:04,629
So and then the theme park industry and
then tourism industry is big for us too.

528
00:26:05,875 --> 00:26:07,355
You know, resorts and things

529
00:26:10,025 --> 00:26:16,935
when you weren't quite as well known as
you are now, like, did it, like, what was

530
00:26:16,935 --> 00:26:21,584
different, I guess, like, did you have
these questions initially, or this is

531
00:26:21,584 --> 00:26:25,554
like the model that you've like crafted
over the lifetime in the industry.

532
00:26:26,125 --> 00:26:29,705
When I started doing workshops, I put
those, you know, articulated those

533
00:26:29,705 --> 00:26:34,585
questions that we, we've always done
that, but not in a formal sense or, or

534
00:26:34,585 --> 00:26:36,964
what are the questions, um, you know.

535
00:26:37,435 --> 00:26:40,435
But we've always had
that sort of that test.

536
00:26:41,345 --> 00:26:44,795
Yeah, I mean, it's, it goes
back to when I did murals.

537
00:26:44,895 --> 00:26:47,455
You know, how do you
become famous for murals?

538
00:26:48,275 --> 00:26:51,204
I was asked to do murals in a
small town on Vancouver Island

539
00:26:51,204 --> 00:26:52,265
in British Columbia here.

540
00:26:52,895 --> 00:26:57,565
Uh, and so we went there, painted a
mural, and again, a light went on.

541
00:26:57,565 --> 00:27:01,444
It's a matter of looking and seeing
what's available in terms of opportunity.

542
00:27:01,624 --> 00:27:05,134
And I said, people are going to come
to this town because of the murals.

543
00:27:06,264 --> 00:27:07,594
It's a good town to do art.

544
00:27:08,445 --> 00:27:13,145
And so a year later, we moved
there and, you know, the tourism

545
00:27:13,145 --> 00:27:18,175
went from zero to 400, 000 people
every year and very, very quickly.

546
00:27:18,455 --> 00:27:22,955
And the first question they had, because
there was like 30 murals through town,

547
00:27:22,985 --> 00:27:26,054
which I did seven, is who did the murals?

548
00:27:26,845 --> 00:27:27,815
And can I talk to them?

549
00:27:27,995 --> 00:27:34,645
Because people from West Virginia want
to come, you know, drop in and, and, uh,

550
00:27:35,345 --> 00:27:36,985
say, hey, this would go good in my town.

551
00:27:37,464 --> 00:27:38,844
So who do we talk to?

552
00:27:38,895 --> 00:27:40,384
And they would end up on my doorstep.

553
00:27:40,435 --> 00:27:44,705
And, and I would take the time to
give them a tour of the town and they

554
00:27:44,705 --> 00:27:48,455
went, Hey, would you want to come
to our town and, and sell this idea?

555
00:27:48,455 --> 00:27:48,995
And it's sure.

556
00:27:48,995 --> 00:27:52,055
So two weeks later, I'd be
on a plane to West Virginia.

557
00:27:52,695 --> 00:27:58,564
And, and, uh, I'd talk to their
Rotary Club and they'd host a thing.

558
00:27:58,565 --> 00:28:00,605
And I'd say, Hey, let me
do up some artwork for you.

559
00:28:01,250 --> 00:28:04,649
Uh, and then if you do a limited
print of this, you can sell

560
00:28:04,649 --> 00:28:05,820
them and pay for the mural.

561
00:28:06,149 --> 00:28:11,489
And so a month later, they'd have limited
print and, and I'd be in their town doing

562
00:28:11,490 --> 00:28:13,310
the first historical mural in their town.

563
00:28:13,730 --> 00:28:18,540
And that would turn into three or four
murals because they know who I am.

564
00:28:19,239 --> 00:28:22,620
And then, so now I'm, I'm
known in West Virginia.

565
00:28:22,620 --> 00:28:24,139
People go there and say, who did that?

566
00:28:24,159 --> 00:28:25,570
Well, here's the guy in British Columbia.

567
00:28:25,590 --> 00:28:29,340
So I mean, you know, in 10
years and did 125 murals.

568
00:28:30,004 --> 00:28:31,475
It's just a exploded.

569
00:28:31,554 --> 00:28:31,834
Yeah.

570
00:28:31,834 --> 00:28:32,155
Yeah.

571
00:28:32,804 --> 00:28:37,385
See that makes so much sense
because you like you're helping

572
00:28:37,385 --> 00:28:40,875
them almost like finance in a way
of like, Hey, here's the artwork.

573
00:28:40,884 --> 00:28:41,144
Go.

574
00:28:41,985 --> 00:28:42,705
Here's what to do.

575
00:28:42,714 --> 00:28:43,995
Like, here's my fee.

576
00:28:44,145 --> 00:28:45,294
I'm not going to discount it.

577
00:28:45,794 --> 00:28:46,504
I'm worth.

578
00:28:46,514 --> 00:28:49,394
This is going to bring 10 times
that to you guys in tourism.

579
00:28:50,064 --> 00:28:50,744
Here's.

580
00:28:51,310 --> 00:28:54,320
Here's a way to pay for this,
without you guys being out

581
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:55,030
of pocket for it.

582
00:28:55,070 --> 00:28:56,820
I mean, to be successful is not hard.

583
00:28:56,830 --> 00:28:58,990
You just gotta wear out
lots of running shoes.

584
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:02,139
And run like crazy.

585
00:29:02,169 --> 00:29:06,630
You know, it's, it's, I mean, I did
it, I did it in fine art, I did it in

586
00:29:06,639 --> 00:29:10,980
murals, now we're doing it in theme
park signs and dimensional signage.

587
00:29:11,650 --> 00:29:14,670
You know, and we're doing it
in the Hazelnut Inn, that's

588
00:29:14,670 --> 00:29:16,290
my son's project next door.

589
00:29:16,330 --> 00:29:19,450
It's, you know, it's...

590
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:20,810
It could be done in anything.

591
00:29:20,810 --> 00:29:22,680
You just got to do it
better than anybody else.

592
00:29:22,710 --> 00:29:25,420
And, and within the time, what's

593
00:29:25,420 --> 00:29:28,109
the, what's the hazelnut in like a bed and

594
00:29:28,110 --> 00:29:35,339
breakfast on steroids, I mean, it
started, uh, my son and his wife, when

595
00:29:35,339 --> 00:29:39,799
they got married eight years ago or
nine years ago or something, they, they

596
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:44,450
wanted to stay in a castle, so they
had to go to Europe on the plane home.

597
00:29:44,450 --> 00:29:46,620
They went, we can build a castle.

598
00:29:49,500 --> 00:29:54,070
So, so a year later, they went
down to Hobbiton in New Zealand.

599
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:56,130
And Hobbiton is a movie set.

600
00:29:56,390 --> 00:30:00,560
There's nothing there, but
everybody wants to stay in a Hobbit.

601
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:02,910
So we can build a Hobbit home.

602
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:04,830
We call it the Underhill.

603
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:06,730
And, and then there's a third suite.

604
00:30:06,750 --> 00:30:10,250
So, okay, well now let's build
this thing and it's being built.

605
00:30:10,949 --> 00:30:15,990
Uh, we get frustrated by customers
that will go 70, 80 percent of the

606
00:30:15,990 --> 00:30:17,680
way, which is still a long ways.

607
00:30:18,865 --> 00:30:23,205
And so every few years we take on a
project, our house, I built a mini

608
00:30:23,205 --> 00:30:27,995
golf back in 2000, and now we're
building the end, which we call our

609
00:30:27,995 --> 00:30:30,215
stupid project is there is no budget.

610
00:30:30,815 --> 00:30:32,485
There's no limit to creativity.

611
00:30:32,565 --> 00:30:34,355
It's going to be off the wall.

612
00:30:35,285 --> 00:30:37,244
And so if you, if you go to hazelnut in.

613
00:30:37,455 --> 00:30:42,535
com and you look at this thing, we've
been, imagine our utmost creativity for

614
00:30:42,535 --> 00:30:44,935
five years, and it's not finished yet.

615
00:30:45,465 --> 00:30:47,655
Cause we squeeze it in
between our other jobs.

616
00:30:48,785 --> 00:30:50,625
There's 4, 000 people signing up.

617
00:30:51,075 --> 00:30:54,505
Ready to book a room and we don't
know when it's going to open.

618
00:30:54,505 --> 00:30:56,875
We don't know how much it's going
to cost yet, but it won't be cheap.

619
00:30:57,595 --> 00:30:58,825
And you don't need to be.

620
00:30:59,455 --> 00:31:00,894
And what does that project do?

621
00:31:00,895 --> 00:31:03,975
Is that, that has already
been featured magazine.

622
00:31:03,975 --> 00:31:05,114
That's already won awards.

623
00:31:05,135 --> 00:31:06,595
It's already, and it's not finished.

624
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:09,790
So it raises our bar exponentially.

625
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:11,530
Right.

626
00:31:12,460 --> 00:31:13,470
And it's your own project.

627
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:13,550
It's a

628
00:31:13,550 --> 00:31:14,240
showcase.

629
00:31:14,460 --> 00:31:17,930
I mean, it's, I, I've seen up to five
and it's right next door to our house.

630
00:31:17,940 --> 00:31:23,750
So when people stop, they just go
googa and stupid in front of our place

631
00:31:24,030 --> 00:31:28,130
and take all these pictures and they
post them to their Facebook page.

632
00:31:28,180 --> 00:31:29,170
And what are they doing?

633
00:31:29,300 --> 00:31:30,520
They're advertising us.

634
00:31:32,145 --> 00:31:35,275
Hey, do you take pictures of them
with their jaws just wide open?

635
00:31:40,595 --> 00:31:44,235
To me, that would be interesting
just to come out and see like a

636
00:31:44,235 --> 00:31:47,275
line of cars in your driveway,
people with their mouths hanging

637
00:31:47,275 --> 00:31:49,685
up and taking pictures of all that.

638
00:31:49,705 --> 00:31:49,975
Yeah.

639
00:31:50,025 --> 00:31:52,725
I mean, we're in a dinky little
town where, you know, we're

640
00:31:52,725 --> 00:31:54,585
only 3, 500 people in this town.

641
00:31:57,720 --> 00:31:57,930
Yeah.

642
00:31:57,930 --> 00:32:00,150
And that was, that was one of the
talking points that we had, right?

643
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,440
So how much does location matter for your

644
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:04,110
success?

645
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:07,670
Location is absolutely critical
and not at all necessary.

646
00:32:08,849 --> 00:32:13,969
Now we are on a road that goes up to a
lake that sees a million visitors a year.

647
00:32:14,519 --> 00:32:18,150
So that's intentional, but at the
same token, I don't necessarily

648
00:32:18,170 --> 00:32:19,769
sell signs to those people.

649
00:32:21,179 --> 00:32:23,650
Um, they know the people I sell signs to.

650
00:32:24,670 --> 00:32:28,370
So, so locate, I mean, people
say, Oh, I live in West Virginia.

651
00:32:28,370 --> 00:32:29,800
I could never sell your kind of work.

652
00:32:30,250 --> 00:32:31,390
Uh, silly you.

653
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:32,120
Yes, you could.

654
00:32:33,260 --> 00:32:36,660
Uh, number one is build a webpage
that showcases what you can do.

655
00:32:37,290 --> 00:32:38,290
It can be samples.

656
00:32:38,319 --> 00:32:39,340
It can be drawings.

657
00:32:40,050 --> 00:32:41,860
Uh, it doesn't have to be a hundred pages.

658
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:43,550
It's only five of your best ones.

659
00:32:44,835 --> 00:32:48,805
And that's what you become known
for because nowadays is, I mean,

660
00:32:49,195 --> 00:32:52,595
if you go out for dinner, you
Google it, where do you want to go?

661
00:32:52,665 --> 00:32:53,165
I don't know.

662
00:32:53,355 --> 00:32:55,725
You type in something and it pops up.

663
00:32:55,935 --> 00:32:59,155
So you just got to be so
good that it comes up.

664
00:32:59,215 --> 00:33:04,885
I mean, it's, I do a blog every
single day and I view that as very

665
00:33:04,885 --> 00:33:06,295
critical part of our advertising.

666
00:33:06,295 --> 00:33:08,405
We get 20, 000 hits a month.

667
00:33:09,455 --> 00:33:11,845
Now I'm only looking for one customer.

668
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:13,810
I'm only looking for one.

669
00:33:16,460 --> 00:33:17,790
So your odds go up.

670
00:33:20,050 --> 00:33:24,600
And then you can ask your five
questions and pair that 20, 000,

671
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:26,430
that people down to the job you want.

672
00:33:28,430 --> 00:33:28,640
Yeah.

673
00:33:28,730 --> 00:33:28,870
How

674
00:33:28,870 --> 00:33:31,680
many contact you in like
the course of a week?

675
00:33:32,740 --> 00:33:33,370
A lot.

676
00:33:37,010 --> 00:33:40,790
I mean, no, but I mean, and we don't
chase, I mean, I was just at a conference

677
00:33:40,790 --> 00:33:44,249
and, and, you know, a customer comes
up to me and, Oh, can you, can you,

678
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:45,660
here's my card, can you follow up?

679
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:46,800
So, no, I won't follow up.

680
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:47,789
Here's my card.

681
00:33:47,790 --> 00:33:51,379
If you're interested, call me
because I only have so much time.

682
00:33:51,900 --> 00:33:52,839
I don't chase work.

683
00:33:53,060 --> 00:33:55,330
We can't put, Peter says
he's, you can't push a rope.

684
00:33:56,345 --> 00:33:58,975
They have to beg me to do
work and they have to answer

685
00:33:58,975 --> 00:34:01,315
five yeses without knowing it

686
00:34:03,545 --> 00:34:05,095
is like, do you have it?

687
00:34:05,135 --> 00:34:10,274
Like if you like developed like this
radar for, for like kicking out people

688
00:34:10,274 --> 00:34:12,975
that are going to waste your time in
the process, well, everybody talks

689
00:34:12,975 --> 00:34:13,215
big.

690
00:34:14,090 --> 00:34:17,310
Yeah, that's what I was gonna say like
it would especially with like the work

691
00:34:17,310 --> 00:34:21,110
that you do I can imagine there would
be a Lot of people that are like, hey,

692
00:34:21,110 --> 00:34:24,000
we want to do this We want to do that
and we think you could do it really

693
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,430
well and then you know, like yeah I

694
00:34:26,430 --> 00:34:30,749
mean, I was at a farm last week and and
I met those people at the conference

695
00:34:30,749 --> 00:34:36,240
and it's called okay For me to come
visit is gonna be for three days.

696
00:34:36,340 --> 00:34:40,980
It's gonna be 5, 000 plus expenses
And then, and then the drawings are

697
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:45,310
basically a thousand bucks a sheet
for, for a concept drawing, you know,

698
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:47,560
a concept drawing looks like that.

699
00:34:48,870 --> 00:34:49,330
Right.

700
00:34:49,610 --> 00:34:50,810
So that's a thousand bucks.

701
00:34:50,910 --> 00:34:54,940
And I can do three of those in a day,
which customer doesn't need to know, but

702
00:34:54,940 --> 00:35:00,130
it's, it, you know, and, and the design
package has to be paid for in advance.

703
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:03,690
So, so I got a check from
this customer for 20, 000.

704
00:35:04,860 --> 00:35:08,160
So that weeds out all the people
who are the wannabes in a hurry.

705
00:35:09,735 --> 00:35:10,435
You gotta want me.

706
00:35:10,475 --> 00:35:11,745
You gotta have a vision.

707
00:35:11,755 --> 00:35:13,855
You gotta, you know, trust me.

708
00:35:14,545 --> 00:35:18,305
And you gotta like buy into
the process wholeheartedly.

709
00:35:18,395 --> 00:35:20,674
Otherwise, it's just not a good fit.

710
00:35:21,545 --> 00:35:24,764
And then, you know, that customer
and they get to talk and say, I'm

711
00:35:24,765 --> 00:35:26,525
not trying to sell you anything.

712
00:35:26,945 --> 00:35:31,005
But understand if you want me
or if you want a piece for next

713
00:35:31,005 --> 00:35:33,895
year, you have to book by January
or you're not going to get it.

714
00:35:34,655 --> 00:35:36,305
And I might be sold up in January.

715
00:35:36,305 --> 00:35:36,665
I don't know.

716
00:35:37,225 --> 00:35:38,005
That's next year.

717
00:35:40,685 --> 00:35:44,755
So what is like the, what's like
the average scope of a product?

718
00:35:44,785 --> 00:35:46,595
Like, where do you guys
usually come in on?

719
00:35:46,595 --> 00:35:49,305
Like if we take like a mini golf,

720
00:35:49,975 --> 00:35:55,214
at a million bucks of which
our budget is at least half.

721
00:35:55,375 --> 00:35:56,584
I mean, we just did one.

722
00:35:57,125 --> 00:35:58,234
It came in at 900.

723
00:35:59,144 --> 00:35:59,344
Yeah.

724
00:35:59,404 --> 00:36:01,525
But are they approaching you at like the.

725
00:36:01,950 --> 00:36:03,200
The very formation of it.

726
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:05,540
Like, Hey, we know we're
going to do a mini golf.

727
00:36:05,590 --> 00:36:06,000
It's going to

728
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:11,140
be Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, you have
to trust me is I don't want to

729
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:14,020
do a jungle mini golf I don't
want to do a pirate mini golf.

730
00:36:14,090 --> 00:36:18,045
I don't want it all the common
ones Go away, not interested.

731
00:36:19,965 --> 00:36:22,385
But from the very inception, like
they're coming to you and saying,

732
00:36:22,385 --> 00:36:24,255
Hey, we want to do a mini golf.

733
00:36:24,675 --> 00:36:25,955
We want you to do it.

734
00:36:26,275 --> 00:36:27,375
It's going to be here.

735
00:36:27,495 --> 00:36:27,695
Yeah.

736
00:36:27,695 --> 00:36:28,624
They've seen my work.

737
00:36:28,624 --> 00:36:30,105
They not, again, I'm not Walmart.

738
00:36:30,155 --> 00:36:34,305
If you're trying to save money, uh,
don't do the job or hire someone else.

739
00:36:34,394 --> 00:36:36,115
Um, you're not going
to save money with me.

740
00:36:36,115 --> 00:36:37,475
I'm going to deliver good value.

741
00:36:38,325 --> 00:36:42,345
But, uh, I'm not a bargain
in terms of price alone.

742
00:36:42,475 --> 00:36:45,045
If, if price is your
concern, I'm not your guy.

743
00:36:45,955 --> 00:36:46,645
Yeah, I,

744
00:36:46,645 --> 00:36:51,915
I just trying to understand like, the
scope of, of everything that you guys do.

745
00:36:51,915 --> 00:36:53,385
Like what's involved in a project

746
00:36:53,385 --> 00:36:53,895
for you guys.

747
00:36:53,900 --> 00:36:54,375
Typically.

748
00:36:54,375 --> 00:36:54,695
Typically.

749
00:36:54,695 --> 00:36:54,895
Okay.

750
00:36:55,005 --> 00:36:59,475
Typically there's a preliminary design
first, where I showed it at one drawing.

751
00:36:59,925 --> 00:37:00,255
Yeah.

752
00:37:00,255 --> 00:37:05,995
Like the concept, if, if people
are under it or on it, it needs

753
00:37:05,995 --> 00:37:08,065
engineering, which it's gonna add.

754
00:37:08,805 --> 00:37:09,406
Uh, we just.

755
00:37:10,695 --> 00:37:14,095
It can add significantly to the
price, which we get, you know,

756
00:37:14,105 --> 00:37:17,565
I do the design, hand it to my
engineer, my engineer stamps it.

757
00:37:18,095 --> 00:37:21,235
And brings back and that's required
for building permits and stuff,

758
00:37:21,265 --> 00:37:28,425
typically, and then, uh, and then it
goes into this studio for fabrication.

759
00:37:28,665 --> 00:37:33,224
We've got a very talented team,
and we've got a structural welder.

760
00:37:33,225 --> 00:37:38,114
We've got, you know, uh,
there's, uh, 4 of us weld.

761
00:37:39,295 --> 00:37:43,915
Um, and then, and a lot
of it is pure grunt work.

762
00:37:43,915 --> 00:37:44,705
It's hard work.

763
00:37:44,795 --> 00:37:49,385
You're tying glass, you're bending steel,
you're, you're troweling cement, you're

764
00:37:49,415 --> 00:37:51,305
carving it, and then, and then the paint.

765
00:37:52,430 --> 00:37:53,870
So, yeah,

766
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:58,110
I can just imagine, like, start to
finish, like, how many hours do you

767
00:37:58,110 --> 00:38:00,120
guys invest in like a mini golf?

768
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:05,489
Well, typically, if we got 12 months
of the year, we're gonna do one,

769
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:12,440
possibly two, um, major projects.

770
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:13,400
Okay.

771
00:38:13,730 --> 00:38:18,175
And then a few minor ones where, you
know, a farm wants Two signs or one

772
00:38:18,175 --> 00:38:21,925
entrance or something, and we can
do, you know, three or four of those.

773
00:38:22,795 --> 00:38:24,495
So, and that'll fill a year.

774
00:38:26,455 --> 00:38:30,595
I mean, our projects, I mean,
signed, uh, signs of time just asked

775
00:38:30,595 --> 00:38:34,554
me for some articles or some, uh,
pieces for the contest this year.

776
00:38:34,555 --> 00:38:35,694
And he said, I don't have it.

777
00:38:35,695 --> 00:38:39,265
Isn't going to give you this
year because our projects started

778
00:38:39,284 --> 00:38:40,784
before last year's contest.

779
00:38:41,615 --> 00:38:42,105
Started.

780
00:38:42,110 --> 00:38:43,325
Started and we haven't finished them yet.

781
00:38:43,325 --> 00:38:44,135
They're not installed.

782
00:38:44,985 --> 00:38:45,345
Right.

783
00:38:45,525 --> 00:38:48,345
I, and it is just like it,
the stuff that you guys do is

784
00:38:48,345 --> 00:38:50,355
such, so immersive, you know?

785
00:38:50,655 --> 00:38:50,865
Yeah.

786
00:38:50,865 --> 00:38:54,825
And that's, I, I think that's why Pete was
like, you guys are not even a sign shop.

787
00:38:54,830 --> 00:38:59,465
Like you, you guys build experiences
mostly what I would, yeah.

788
00:38:59,975 --> 00:39:03,935
A sign is, A sign is, you know,
most people define a sign as a

789
00:39:03,935 --> 00:39:05,585
flat board with letters on it.

790
00:39:05,590 --> 00:39:05,815
Mm-hmm.

791
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,860
. That's not a sign that I
don't know what that is.

792
00:39:09,940 --> 00:39:13,240
A sign to me is anything that
draws attention to my customers,

793
00:39:13,240 --> 00:39:14,520
product, service or business.

794
00:39:15,525 --> 00:39:18,915
That can include the building, the
landscaping, the features, you know,

795
00:39:18,925 --> 00:39:23,995
why can't it be a 30 foot dinosaur, you
know, or a robot that's 30 feet high?

796
00:39:27,185 --> 00:39:33,125
I mean, we just did that project for
South Dakota, the big robot, and I

797
00:39:33,125 --> 00:39:34,524
said, okay, what is your objective here?

798
00:39:34,525 --> 00:39:37,555
And he says, well, we have a busy road
by our place, I want to stop traffic.

799
00:39:38,735 --> 00:39:43,635
I said, okay, that's, you know, that's
not a cheap project, but yes, I can do it.

800
00:39:44,620 --> 00:39:50,050
You know, and we have, we have a standard
in our shop and the standard is, this

801
00:39:50,060 --> 00:39:54,060
is, and it's too easy now because
everybody carries a camera on their phone.

802
00:39:54,070 --> 00:39:58,230
But back in the eighties,
it was the same standard.

803
00:39:58,240 --> 00:40:02,100
Dan, it's called if someone
isn't taking a picture.

804
00:40:02,475 --> 00:40:04,165
where the newspaper isn't up front.

805
00:40:04,215 --> 00:40:09,735
Before I finished installing, I have
failed miserably and I'd never fail.

806
00:40:12,565 --> 00:40:12,965
That's a high

807
00:40:12,965 --> 00:40:13,525
standard.

808
00:40:16,335 --> 00:40:16,765
I can tell

809
00:40:16,765 --> 00:40:22,145
you, like, I've only hit that standard
a couple times with the signs that

810
00:40:22,355 --> 00:40:22,744
I've done.

811
00:40:22,804 --> 00:40:23,925
Why not every project?

812
00:40:24,460 --> 00:40:24,850
Yeah.

813
00:40:24,860 --> 00:40:25,460
I agree.

814
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:28,190
I mean, imagine how fun that,
imagine how fun that is.

815
00:40:28,980 --> 00:40:31,350
And that's a, that's a conversation
I've had with Mike and I, that's

816
00:40:31,350 --> 00:40:34,329
why I hate that he's not on this
one of like, that's why he got into

817
00:40:34,329 --> 00:40:39,810
the sign industry, like to have fun
and make these like creative signs.

818
00:40:39,870 --> 00:40:43,410
And for, I feel like that's why
a lot of people get into the

819
00:40:43,410 --> 00:40:47,290
industry and then it, it just goes.

820
00:40:47,890 --> 00:40:52,680
South somewhere, or like we just
fall into a rutt, um, money.

821
00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:53,280
Do you have it?

822
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:53,850
Yeah.

823
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:54,890
Could be.

824
00:40:55,190 --> 00:40:58,430
Do you have any advice for, for
somebody like that, of like, Hey,

825
00:40:58,430 --> 00:41:03,030
like I used to have this desire to
do these super creative signs, and

826
00:41:03,030 --> 00:41:07,880
now I'm like, I'm, I'm in this rutt
of like, Hey, we're, we're not doing

827
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:09,830
that work that I wanted to be doing.

828
00:41:10,310 --> 00:41:10,490
Yeah.

829
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:11,450
Fir first.

830
00:41:11,450 --> 00:41:14,210
First, my advice is what
does your sign look like?

831
00:41:15,155 --> 00:41:16,395
Is it the best sign in town?

832
00:41:17,055 --> 00:41:18,015
Will it win an award?

833
00:41:18,975 --> 00:41:25,115
Uh, if it, if it isn't shame on you, time
to time to start your, your, your new

834
00:41:25,125 --> 00:41:27,835
project and, and build your business.

835
00:41:28,415 --> 00:41:31,335
Cause I mean, I've had hundreds of people.

836
00:41:31,735 --> 00:41:36,895
I've had hundreds of people take my
workshop and most of them, or many of them

837
00:41:37,025 --> 00:41:40,885
are people who are exactly, you described
they, they, they, this is what they want

838
00:41:40,885 --> 00:41:48,705
to do business has dragged them way off
this horrible path and why is because.

839
00:41:49,110 --> 00:41:54,000
Uh, well, you buy a new piece of equipment
and the payments are 1500 a month, so you

840
00:41:54,000 --> 00:42:01,430
got to make that payment, you know, in
my, you know, I mean, I, I understand all

841
00:42:01,430 --> 00:42:03,310
that stuff, but it, but it's different.

842
00:42:03,820 --> 00:42:04,870
You got to think differently.

843
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:08,390
I mean, when we bought our CNC
router, I actually won a competition.

844
00:42:08,670 --> 00:42:10,399
I went down to a science show.

845
00:42:10,449 --> 00:42:11,350
It was either Florida or LA.

846
00:42:11,710 --> 00:42:14,760
I can't remember, uh, ASA show, ISA.

847
00:42:15,935 --> 00:42:21,155
And, um, getting the prize was
anti climatic, because it's called,

848
00:42:21,155 --> 00:42:22,095
here you go, and that was it.

849
00:42:22,095 --> 00:42:23,555
It was just, okay.

850
00:42:23,755 --> 00:42:28,965
I mean, first place in Signs of the Times
magazine doesn't buy you a cup of coffee.

851
00:42:30,825 --> 00:42:31,165
Right.

852
00:42:31,464 --> 00:42:35,135
And it doesn't make you a better
person, so you got to get over that.

853
00:42:36,425 --> 00:42:42,725
But it is important, because number
one, it, I mean, When I, we're going

854
00:42:42,725 --> 00:42:48,225
to go around the circle a little
bit here, uh, in 1981, I picked up

855
00:42:48,225 --> 00:42:53,064
a sign magazine and it was Signs of
the Times annual competition issue.

856
00:42:53,064 --> 00:42:54,084
I still got it on my shelf.

857
00:42:54,104 --> 00:42:55,095
It's dog eared.

858
00:42:55,234 --> 00:42:58,875
And I said, someday I will
be good enough to be there.

859
00:42:59,165 --> 00:43:00,644
That was a promise to myself.

860
00:43:02,045 --> 00:43:05,855
I never worked up the courage to
enter for, I don't know, 15 years.

861
00:43:06,180 --> 00:43:07,380
I should have, but I didn't.

862
00:43:08,850 --> 00:43:17,020
So my advice to people is do one sign
this year that is good enough to enter a

863
00:43:17,020 --> 00:43:20,930
competition as a sample and then enter it.

864
00:43:21,850 --> 00:43:23,859
And if you win cool, if you don't.

865
00:43:24,395 --> 00:43:25,965
Well, now you know where the standard is.

866
00:43:25,965 --> 00:43:27,075
You gotta do better next year.

867
00:43:28,005 --> 00:43:32,425
But then, then hang that sample on your
wall, and that becomes a sales tool.

868
00:43:33,355 --> 00:43:34,675
Next year, do a better sample.

869
00:43:36,035 --> 00:43:37,394
And next year, do a better sample.

870
00:43:37,635 --> 00:43:43,034
And it's, to be, if you want to do
what I do, it's a, between a three and

871
00:43:43,035 --> 00:43:45,274
five year journey, to do it full time.

872
00:43:46,034 --> 00:43:51,475
If, if you're, you know, and then
raise your prices by 20 percent

873
00:43:51,505 --> 00:43:55,105
overall, everything, and scare
all your bad customers away.

874
00:43:56,835 --> 00:43:57,765
That's just good advice.

875
00:43:58,455 --> 00:44:05,215
That 20 percent you scare away will
give you time to work more samples and

876
00:44:05,215 --> 00:44:06,685
you're on your way to becoming what I am.

877
00:44:07,215 --> 00:44:08,035
Simple as that.

878
00:44:10,615 --> 00:44:11,264
Simple as that.

879
00:44:11,435 --> 00:44:12,175
Walk the walk.

880
00:44:12,315 --> 00:44:13,285
Be the, be that guy.

881
00:44:13,915 --> 00:44:17,525
I mean, if you, if you raise your prices,
I, I, I talked to a guy in Alaska.

882
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:19,640
And he took my workshop eventually.

883
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:22,920
I went and visited him because I was
bidding a cruise ship at that time.

884
00:44:22,930 --> 00:44:26,350
I went in to shop and he's,
he's in Alaska in a town.

885
00:44:26,399 --> 00:44:27,810
There's no road into this town.

886
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:29,800
You can only go there by boat or plane.

887
00:44:31,209 --> 00:44:33,020
So he's the only sign shop in town.

888
00:44:33,030 --> 00:44:35,380
And I said, tell me what's
wrong with your business.

889
00:44:35,750 --> 00:44:38,050
And he goes, I'm working endless hours.

890
00:44:39,059 --> 00:44:41,520
Uh, he says, I'm not doing
enough creative work.

891
00:44:42,415 --> 00:44:44,245
Uh, and I'm not making money.

892
00:44:45,235 --> 00:44:46,235
Well, it's simple.

893
00:44:46,395 --> 00:44:47,535
Raise your prices 20%.

894
00:44:48,735 --> 00:44:50,685
And he goes, I'll lose 20
percent of my business.

895
00:44:50,685 --> 00:44:51,465
I said, yes, you will.

896
00:44:51,975 --> 00:44:52,515
Absolutely.

897
00:44:52,915 --> 00:44:54,035
Cause it'll be cheap.

898
00:44:54,045 --> 00:44:57,084
It'll be expensive enough that
people can go to another town and

899
00:44:57,084 --> 00:44:58,885
ship their sign in and replace you.

900
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:02,650
Okay, but those 20% you
don't care about anyhow.

901
00:45:03,340 --> 00:45:07,380
They're not creative work because if
you're doing creative work, you're

902
00:45:07,380 --> 00:45:08,640
the guy you think you gotta go to.

903
00:45:08,940 --> 00:45:14,320
And I said, if you raise your
price 20%, you're now making 30%

904
00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:16,870
more than you were before because
there's no cost attached to that.

905
00:45:16,930 --> 00:45:17,860
That's pure profit.

906
00:45:19,470 --> 00:45:19,710
Right?

907
00:45:20,620 --> 00:45:21,221
So now you have.

908
00:45:21,985 --> 00:45:23,695
And you're not working overtime anymore.

909
00:45:25,465 --> 00:45:30,505
So, you know, and then set a project
when I do my samples, I set it just

910
00:45:30,505 --> 00:45:35,745
outside my studio door as I go into
my workshop and everybody in the

911
00:45:35,745 --> 00:45:37,615
world, I know, waste 10 minutes a day.

912
00:45:38,155 --> 00:45:40,305
And that's a very, very
conservative estimate.

913
00:45:41,624 --> 00:45:44,295
You know, don't, don't watch
a CAD video and go work on

914
00:45:44,295 --> 00:45:45,645
your sample for five minutes.

915
00:45:46,705 --> 00:45:47,145
Every day.

916
00:45:48,215 --> 00:45:48,445
So you

917
00:45:49,415 --> 00:45:52,085
put it front and center,
like where you can't miss

918
00:45:52,095 --> 00:45:52,465
it.

919
00:45:52,645 --> 00:45:57,125
And when you get a real crap job
that sucks your soul, reward yourself

920
00:45:57,125 --> 00:45:58,675
with half an hour on your project.

921
00:46:00,195 --> 00:46:00,955
I love this man.

922
00:46:01,714 --> 00:46:04,794
Like, no BS, like, Hey, like, just do it.

923
00:46:05,355 --> 00:46:09,225
And anything less than that is just an
excuse that you don't want to do it.

924
00:46:09,605 --> 00:46:12,555
I mean, I mean, if 20
people took my workshop.

925
00:46:13,130 --> 00:46:15,900
Everybody was going, Oh,
yes, yes, this is cool.

926
00:46:17,530 --> 00:46:19,360
Half of them will never do anything I say.

927
00:46:20,410 --> 00:46:23,640
The other half will do it for a week
and then they'll fall off the wayside.

928
00:46:24,670 --> 00:46:27,420
And you get down to two
will actually listen to me.

929
00:46:28,030 --> 00:46:30,310
And in two years, I guarantee
you they're doing better work.

930
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:31,430
Way better work.

931
00:46:31,430 --> 00:46:31,679
Do you, uh,

932
00:46:32,519 --> 00:46:34,400
do you stay in touch with the people?

933
00:46:34,599 --> 00:46:36,409
Like, are you, are you
still doing your workshops?

934
00:46:37,619 --> 00:46:37,789
I've

935
00:46:37,959 --> 00:46:38,799
quit now because of...

936
00:46:39,309 --> 00:46:39,489
Gotcha.

937
00:46:40,805 --> 00:46:42,825
It's, that was my passion.

938
00:46:42,975 --> 00:46:44,385
It's not my boss's passion.

939
00:46:44,915 --> 00:46:45,585
I got you.

940
00:46:45,745 --> 00:46:46,045
Okay.

941
00:46:46,885 --> 00:46:49,795
But do you stay in touch with a
lot of the, the sign makers that it

942
00:46:51,454 --> 00:46:53,454
shows and stuff, or they send me pictures.

943
00:46:53,475 --> 00:46:56,405
I mean, it's very gratifying to see
someone send you a picture and say,

944
00:46:56,405 --> 00:46:58,014
Hey, Hey, look what I'm doing now.

945
00:46:58,104 --> 00:47:02,035
And I mean, I helped change
the industry in a small way.

946
00:47:03,695 --> 00:47:05,225
It's not in a small way.

947
00:47:05,525 --> 00:47:07,935
Well, I mean, I, yeah, but
I've influenced people.

948
00:47:07,935 --> 00:47:09,405
I hopefully lose people.

949
00:47:10,865 --> 00:47:12,195
I mean, I love poking people.

950
00:47:12,895 --> 00:47:16,575
You know, I mean, if I met you at
a show and you were saying, Oh, I'd

951
00:47:16,575 --> 00:47:18,625
like to, let's say that's an excuse.

952
00:47:19,265 --> 00:47:22,234
I'll poke you right between
the eyes and say, smarten up.

953
00:47:24,035 --> 00:47:24,965
Don't give me crap.

954
00:47:25,035 --> 00:47:26,235
You know, I don't have time.

955
00:47:26,665 --> 00:47:28,065
Hey, you think I'm not busy?

956
00:47:29,755 --> 00:47:31,025
You know, how is my life different?

957
00:47:31,285 --> 00:47:33,864
You know, if people say, Oh,
you're, you're lucky you're

958
00:47:33,864 --> 00:47:35,705
born under a shining sun.

959
00:47:35,955 --> 00:47:39,425
Uh, Hey, I just had a
heart, not a heart issues.

960
00:47:39,425 --> 00:47:40,725
I just had an open heart surgery.

961
00:47:40,725 --> 00:47:41,085
I did.

962
00:47:41,185 --> 00:47:42,435
My life is no different.

963
00:47:42,644 --> 00:47:43,964
You know, people die around me.

964
00:47:44,715 --> 00:47:45,815
My life is busy.

965
00:47:45,844 --> 00:47:46,144
I.

966
00:47:46,580 --> 00:47:48,200
Business goes south occasion.

967
00:47:48,460 --> 00:47:51,090
I make horrible mistakes that
cost me thousands of the dollar.

968
00:47:51,090 --> 00:47:53,220
Every, my life is no
different than anybody else's.

969
00:47:54,455 --> 00:47:58,615
I'm still a very lucky guy because I've
got family supporting me and I've got,

970
00:47:58,735 --> 00:48:03,465
you know, I've got the most awesome
boss in the world and life is good.

971
00:48:03,565 --> 00:48:05,164
I mean, I'm 69 years old.

972
00:48:05,164 --> 00:48:08,455
I've been in business 55 years.

973
00:48:08,485 --> 00:48:13,355
I have no intention of retiring
Because if I retire what am I gonna do?

974
00:48:13,355 --> 00:48:17,725
I'm gonna come up in the shop and have fun
Well, I started doing that full time at

975
00:48:17,725 --> 00:48:20,445
age 23 So I guess that's when I retired.

976
00:48:21,625 --> 00:48:22,555
It's all in the mindset.

977
00:48:22,815 --> 00:48:23,325
I love that.

978
00:48:24,685 --> 00:48:27,915
Before we close this out, can
we, do you mind if we touch on

979
00:48:27,915 --> 00:48:29,105
like the family business thing?

980
00:48:29,404 --> 00:48:29,434
Sure.

981
00:48:29,444 --> 00:48:29,534
Just

982
00:48:29,795 --> 00:48:30,415
a little bit.

983
00:48:32,045 --> 00:48:36,235
So when did your son like
take over as majority

984
00:48:36,235 --> 00:48:36,655
owner?

985
00:48:36,925 --> 00:48:39,485
Uh, that would be six, seven years ago.

986
00:48:41,154 --> 00:48:45,224
And it required a huge
mindset change on my part.

987
00:48:46,054 --> 00:48:48,525
Right down to, I mean,
just check your ego, dude.

988
00:48:48,535 --> 00:48:49,525
You're not in charge anymore.

989
00:48:51,895 --> 00:48:52,245
That's

990
00:48:53,125 --> 00:48:55,935
what I'm most curious about
is like the transition.

991
00:48:56,145 --> 00:48:59,485
What happened if Peter worked
with me for 14 years and then

992
00:48:59,485 --> 00:49:00,895
he went away for 14 years.

993
00:49:00,895 --> 00:49:04,015
He said, I need to be, I need to
be Peter for a while, not damn son.

994
00:49:04,455 --> 00:49:05,035
I'm like, cool.

995
00:49:05,515 --> 00:49:06,905
And he became an animator.

996
00:49:07,085 --> 00:49:09,095
He got his teaching degree in mathematics.

997
00:49:09,405 --> 00:49:10,565
I mean, he's a smart guy.

998
00:49:11,695 --> 00:49:15,545
And then he came back to help us
build our house, uh, 10 years ago.

999
00:49:16,495 --> 00:49:19,654
And I said, I want to make
any, he taught for six months

1000
00:49:19,654 --> 00:49:20,925
and it wasn't what he thought.

1001
00:49:20,944 --> 00:49:22,534
So I said, I want to make a deal.

1002
00:49:22,534 --> 00:49:23,475
You can't refuse.

1003
00:49:24,240 --> 00:49:29,120
Is if you want to come back, I'll bonus
you enough money that you can buy the

1004
00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:30,600
business because I don't need money.

1005
00:49:31,860 --> 00:49:35,960
So it was a five year plan or
that's what we talked about.

1006
00:49:36,180 --> 00:49:39,529
So then we went to see the accountant
and he said, uh, explain to me

1007
00:49:39,530 --> 00:49:41,129
what happens if Peter comes back?

1008
00:49:41,270 --> 00:49:45,860
And I said, well, the business will go
from doing 350 to over a million a year.

1009
00:49:46,070 --> 00:49:47,090
Instantly like that.

1010
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:50,310
And he said, you tell me
you're not in it for the money.

1011
00:49:50,820 --> 00:49:53,160
If that's the case, don't
make a deal in five years.

1012
00:49:53,180 --> 00:49:56,270
Cause you'll pay too much tax and Peter
will pay too much for the business.

1013
00:49:56,995 --> 00:50:00,035
Do it today because this was two
weeks before the end of the year.

1014
00:50:01,165 --> 00:50:01,745
Uh, gotcha.

1015
00:50:02,565 --> 00:50:09,775
So we wrote up an agreement in the next
two weeks and January 1st came along.

1016
00:50:09,794 --> 00:50:11,764
I was no longer a majority
owner of the business.

1017
00:50:11,825 --> 00:50:12,895
I owned half a percent.

1018
00:50:16,195 --> 00:50:20,694
The next Saturday I was in town
driving to town, doing some errands.

1019
00:50:20,704 --> 00:50:23,224
And I went, I just stole the truck.

1020
00:50:28,555 --> 00:50:30,055
I didn't ask Peter if I could drive it.

1021
00:50:31,825 --> 00:50:34,995
And it was like, in my head, it's
like, you're not in charge anymore.

1022
00:50:34,995 --> 00:50:35,795
You can't do this.

1023
00:50:37,020 --> 00:50:40,710
So I told my wife and she said,
uh, cause I hadn't owned a vehicle

1024
00:50:40,710 --> 00:50:42,460
personally in, in 30 years.

1025
00:50:43,370 --> 00:50:43,670
Wow.

1026
00:50:43,710 --> 00:50:44,130
Right.

1027
00:50:44,620 --> 00:50:47,420
And she said, do you,
do you want a vehicle?

1028
00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:49,320
And I went, yeah, I
think I'd like a vehicle.

1029
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:50,439
And she says, what do you want?

1030
00:50:50,869 --> 00:50:52,430
And I said, I want a yellow Jeep.

1031
00:50:53,245 --> 00:50:57,495
Cause I had one when I was a kid
and she says, why a yellow Jeep?

1032
00:50:57,495 --> 00:51:00,535
And I said, well, so I can take the top
off and I can feel the wind in my hair.

1033
00:51:02,045 --> 00:51:04,525
And she says, uh, you better hurry.

1034
00:51:13,025 --> 00:51:14,024
So I drive a yellow Jeep.

1035
00:51:14,695 --> 00:51:15,255
There you go.

1036
00:51:16,685 --> 00:51:21,765
So was there like, was
Peter always interested in

1037
00:51:23,015 --> 00:51:23,915
running the business?

1038
00:51:24,755 --> 00:51:29,154
He's not in love with running the
business as much as I was running a

1039
00:51:29,155 --> 00:51:32,215
business, but the dude is talented.

1040
00:51:33,370 --> 00:51:36,940
And he's, he humbly says, well, I'm
standing on your shoulders, that's

1041
00:51:36,950 --> 00:51:42,870
why he says, you know, everything I
do learn from you and now, but, and

1042
00:51:42,870 --> 00:51:44,510
so he's taken it to the next level.

1043
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:46,909
Would you, would you?

1044
00:51:48,275 --> 00:51:48,445
Yeah.

1045
00:51:48,475 --> 00:51:52,475
Would you attribute that to like the, like
the, the first question, like your first

1046
00:51:52,475 --> 00:51:58,165
principle, like, Hey, is this going to be
fun or is it, is it like something else?

1047
00:51:58,165 --> 00:52:03,844
Because I talked to a lot of owners that
are in this similar position where like,

1048
00:52:03,845 --> 00:52:07,425
Hey, I've, I I'm getting ready to retire.

1049
00:52:07,445 --> 00:52:08,545
I'm retirement age.

1050
00:52:08,635 --> 00:52:10,605
And like, I want to hand this down.

1051
00:52:10,625 --> 00:52:13,375
I would love to hand it down
to family, but family, dude.

1052
00:52:13,700 --> 00:52:15,680
May not be interested or

1053
00:52:16,190 --> 00:52:20,600
yeah, and and and it's important that
you don't hand it someone that doesn't

1054
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:28,490
want it Like Peter has to be Peter Peter
is better at the business than I am I

1055
00:52:28,490 --> 00:52:34,229
mean much better and and much better
businessman I mean we were doing a job in

1056
00:52:34,240 --> 00:52:40,655
Trinidad or bidding a job in Trinidad just
when he came on And, and this was like

1057
00:52:41,225 --> 00:52:45,975
14 shipping container, 40 foot shipping
containers full of signs and features.

1058
00:52:47,055 --> 00:52:49,664
And, and he says, do you
mind if I review the bid?

1059
00:52:49,674 --> 00:52:50,824
And I said, no, please do.

1060
00:52:50,955 --> 00:52:52,335
And he said, are you
happy with the prices?

1061
00:52:52,335 --> 00:52:53,805
I said, yeah, no, I'm
happy with the prices.

1062
00:52:54,035 --> 00:52:57,694
So he goes through and he comes
to me and he says, uh, there's

1063
00:52:57,714 --> 00:52:59,724
nothing in here for the skits.

1064
00:52:59,725 --> 00:53:01,505
How are you getting me in the container?

1065
00:53:01,890 --> 00:53:03,790
Why don't we just take our
tractor and push him in?

1066
00:53:03,830 --> 00:53:08,470
No, no, he says, the way we ship is
we build our features on a pallet,

1067
00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:12,630
custom made steel pallet that barely
fits in the container and it slides in.

1068
00:53:12,669 --> 00:53:13,640
We still do that way.

1069
00:53:14,620 --> 00:53:14,660
Sure.

1070
00:53:14,660 --> 00:53:18,989
He says, how much does it cost
to build one of those pallets?

1071
00:53:19,090 --> 00:53:20,959
And I went, I don't know,
it's part of the feature.

1072
00:53:20,970 --> 00:53:21,880
And he says, no.

1073
00:53:21,999 --> 00:53:23,070
How much does it cost?

1074
00:53:23,685 --> 00:53:27,905
And it, the number we came up with
once we started doing some math,

1075
00:53:27,935 --> 00:53:33,665
because Peter is a mathematician,
where 8 feet of pallet cost 500.

1076
00:53:36,395 --> 00:53:37,985
Yeah, so is it not insignificant?

1077
00:53:38,125 --> 00:53:42,880
No, and, and he said, Plus, you
have to, how long does it take?

1078
00:53:42,890 --> 00:53:43,920
And well, you just push it in.

1079
00:53:43,930 --> 00:53:47,500
No, he says, you've got, you've got a
guy guiding it, another guy pushing it.

1080
00:53:47,500 --> 00:53:49,839
And you've got, you know, we
handle it in our shop, we've got

1081
00:53:49,839 --> 00:53:53,390
to take the wheels off you, you
know, and so we put a number to it.

1082
00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:57,610
And then he came up with
a price of per foot.

1083
00:53:58,620 --> 00:54:02,499
And it got to be, when we
did the math, it was 90, 000.

1084
00:54:05,070 --> 00:54:06,420
That I had put in a bid.

1085
00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:07,490
Wow.

1086
00:54:08,030 --> 00:54:10,490
And then he says, okay,
what about in Trinidad?

1087
00:54:10,540 --> 00:54:11,970
You got to get those things back out.

1088
00:54:11,980 --> 00:54:14,460
And I said, well, they're flying
you to Trinidad and I'm there.

1089
00:54:14,580 --> 00:54:14,840
Yeah.

1090
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:18,099
But he says, you know, when you're there,
it's called, what color do we paint this?

1091
00:54:18,330 --> 00:54:19,539
How do we do this?

1092
00:54:19,830 --> 00:54:20,850
Where's the landscaping?

1093
00:54:20,850 --> 00:54:22,919
Because you're running
around doing all that stuff.

1094
00:54:23,090 --> 00:54:25,960
He says, we're going to double
that bid for getting this

1095
00:54:25,970 --> 00:54:27,170
stuff out of the container too.

1096
00:54:27,990 --> 00:54:32,160
It was 180, 000 that I
had left on the table.

1097
00:54:33,965 --> 00:54:35,005
Customer never blink.

1098
00:54:36,975 --> 00:54:37,555
That's Peter.

1099
00:54:37,855 --> 00:54:38,895
He's a smart guy.

1100
00:54:39,785 --> 00:54:43,415
So he, he, when we go through our bids,
we have the formula because, you know,

1101
00:54:43,415 --> 00:54:44,745
people say, how do you cost your stuff?

1102
00:54:44,765 --> 00:54:49,555
It's like, it, it boils down to
what, what is your shop rate?

1103
00:54:50,065 --> 00:54:51,835
Which is a very, very important number.

1104
00:54:52,574 --> 00:54:53,924
And then how long is it going to take?

1105
00:54:53,965 --> 00:54:57,084
And then put a buffer in there and
then mark up your materials and, you

1106
00:54:57,084 --> 00:54:59,854
know, all that usual, you know, I've
done articles and stuff in Sync.

1107
00:55:01,495 --> 00:55:02,885
So it all has to be factored in.

1108
00:55:03,005 --> 00:55:08,525
And so, you know, and it boils
down to, and most sign shop owners

1109
00:55:08,535 --> 00:55:11,975
forget about this, is number one
is what do you think you're worth?

1110
00:55:13,635 --> 00:55:15,804
How much do you want to
make in a year as owner?

1111
00:55:17,425 --> 00:55:18,475
So you put that number.

1112
00:55:18,505 --> 00:55:21,674
Now that number is sacred because
anything that cuts into that

1113
00:55:21,674 --> 00:55:23,235
number comes out of your pocket.

1114
00:55:24,535 --> 00:55:29,315
So, if you have to buy a new computer
next year, the company has got to

1115
00:55:29,325 --> 00:55:32,415
have enough money to buy that computer
or it comes out of your pocket.

1116
00:55:32,975 --> 00:55:36,505
If you need a new car or new software
or new blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,

1117
00:55:36,505 --> 00:55:38,425
blah, that all, that, that all.

1118
00:55:38,595 --> 00:55:41,034
And then what it, your employees
too, because everyone else

1119
00:55:41,035 --> 00:55:42,395
gets paid before you do.

1120
00:55:43,375 --> 00:55:47,925
So, you know, those are all important, you
know, as you calculate your shop rate and

1121
00:55:47,925 --> 00:55:52,135
what is stuff worth and all that stuff.

1122
00:55:53,495 --> 00:55:53,695
It's

1123
00:55:53,695 --> 00:55:59,115
so good to hear you say that like that's
like the method that we Practice and teach

1124
00:55:59,585 --> 00:56:04,495
and it's not different than than any like
it shouldn't be any different for anybody

1125
00:56:04,495 --> 00:56:09,645
else out there, which is nice Even at
the the level of the game that you're at

1126
00:56:10,064 --> 00:56:15,365
like, yeah, cuz typical you sell prices
software doesn't work It's but we have a

1127
00:56:15,495 --> 00:56:20,615
we have a spreadsheet that we go through
and then there's a fudge factor into that

1128
00:56:20,830 --> 00:56:23,890
Saying, you know, you know, again, it goes
back to your five questions because you

1129
00:56:23,910 --> 00:56:25,630
know, stuff is always going to go wrong.

1130
00:56:25,990 --> 00:56:28,680
It's always going to, you know,
what happens if we make it two

1131
00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:30,424
feet taller because it needs to be.

1132
00:56:30,805 --> 00:56:32,215
Does the customer have to pay for that?

1133
00:56:32,925 --> 00:56:34,915
Uh, the answer is yes, but up front.

1134
00:56:34,935 --> 00:56:36,105
Not after the fact.

1135
00:56:37,045 --> 00:56:41,464
I want to hear more about the inner
workings of what you and Pete have there.

1136
00:56:41,535 --> 00:56:45,645
You know, you just mentioned
that a typical sign shop software

1137
00:56:45,654 --> 00:56:46,764
doesn't work for your shop.

1138
00:56:46,795 --> 00:56:49,615
That you're using a
spreadsheet of some sort.

1139
00:56:50,595 --> 00:56:54,355
Talk to me about some of the
tech stack that you use to make

1140
00:56:54,855 --> 00:56:56,785
the imagination station work.

1141
00:56:57,935 --> 00:56:59,425
That your dream team work.

1142
00:56:59,555 --> 00:57:00,205
Tell me about it.

1143
00:57:01,930 --> 00:57:06,200
Well, number one is we, we try and
pay our help better than the industry

1144
00:57:06,200 --> 00:57:07,420
by far because they're there.

1145
00:57:07,460 --> 00:57:09,120
They're that creative
and they're valuable.

1146
00:57:09,450 --> 00:57:12,360
A lot of people say, oh,
staff is nothing but a cost.

1147
00:57:12,940 --> 00:57:14,980
Staff is your most valuable asset.

1148
00:57:15,830 --> 00:57:18,390
I mean, I get to sign the
jobs and I get all the credit.

1149
00:57:19,465 --> 00:57:23,285
But I don't do the work, you know,
there's pieces that I don't even

1150
00:57:23,335 --> 00:57:26,405
touch that come into our shop
that have my signature on them.

1151
00:57:27,235 --> 00:57:31,235
So, number one is, is the value
of those guys is incredible.

1152
00:57:32,005 --> 00:57:37,195
Secondly, is, is, uh, have
the best equipment, you know.

1153
00:57:38,055 --> 00:57:42,895
A shop router is cool, but a multicam
will do it better and faster.

1154
00:57:44,295 --> 00:57:48,835
But you got to price accordingly and
technology has screwed up the industry

1155
00:57:48,835 --> 00:57:53,765
to I, one of the examples I give is,
is, uh, you know, let's say Peter does

1156
00:57:53,775 --> 00:57:55,375
science and you carve them by hand.

1157
00:57:56,185 --> 00:58:01,135
And you, Brian, you have a
ShopBot, which is a great machine,

1158
00:58:02,015 --> 00:58:05,935
and I've got a Multicam, which
does stuff three times as fast.

1159
00:58:06,575 --> 00:58:12,654
So, Peter sells a sign for,
for, pick a number, for 5, 000.

1160
00:58:13,155 --> 00:58:15,345
And he puts a whole week into that job.

1161
00:58:17,555 --> 00:58:21,655
Now you can do the job and half
the time because you've got a

1162
00:58:21,655 --> 00:58:23,465
nice little computer to help you.

1163
00:58:23,675 --> 00:58:28,584
And if you charge the shop, the same shop
rate, you're selling the sign for 2, 500.

1164
00:58:29,765 --> 00:58:32,615
And my machine is, is twice as fast again.

1165
00:58:33,035 --> 00:58:38,725
So if I sell the same,
same shop rate, 1, 250.

1166
00:58:40,955 --> 00:58:42,585
That's what's wrong
with the sign industry.

1167
00:58:44,605 --> 00:58:45,545
It's all driven by,

1168
00:58:45,775 --> 00:58:47,025
like, the equipment.

1169
00:58:47,025 --> 00:58:48,505
It's by stupid thinking.

1170
00:58:50,405 --> 00:58:53,204
That says the shop rate is, a
shop rate is not a shop rate.

1171
00:58:53,494 --> 00:59:01,665
It's, you know, the way I look at it
is if it takes me, uh, I figure my, my

1172
00:59:02,775 --> 00:59:07,915
CNC router can carve a sign five times
as fast as I can carve a sign by hand.

1173
00:59:08,855 --> 00:59:09,615
And I'm fast.

1174
00:59:10,425 --> 00:59:14,795
So if, if I charge 200 bucks an hour,
which is not unreasonable in this time,

1175
00:59:14,795 --> 00:59:21,370
as a shop rate, That sign should be worth
a thousand bucks an hour on the machine,

1176
00:59:22,990 --> 00:59:28,590
which is not unreasonable because it's
a hundred thousand dollar sheet and you

1177
00:59:28,590 --> 00:59:29,750
should be charging that kind of money.

1178
00:59:30,120 --> 00:59:34,039
And the customer doesn't need to know if
I carved it by hand or did on the machine.

1179
00:59:34,210 --> 00:59:34,580
Right.

1180
00:59:34,580 --> 00:59:35,140
That's what I was getting

1181
00:59:35,330 --> 00:59:35,450
at.

1182
00:59:35,460 --> 00:59:37,990
That's the point that
I want to make, right?

1183
00:59:38,019 --> 00:59:38,890
Customer doesn't do it.

1184
00:59:39,340 --> 00:59:42,620
And I, I make, purposely make
my signs on the machine look

1185
00:59:42,640 --> 00:59:43,830
like they were done by hand.

1186
00:59:44,370 --> 00:59:48,880
We introduce texture and, and do a little
bit of hand work after it, hand paint

1187
00:59:48,880 --> 00:59:51,910
them, so that it is a handcrafted sign.

1188
00:59:52,570 --> 00:59:54,000
That I cheated like crazy.

1189
00:59:54,190 --> 00:59:56,700
But to me, it's having a machine
in the back is no different

1190
00:59:56,720 --> 00:59:57,980
than having employees help me.

1191
00:59:58,740 --> 01:00:02,419
But it doesn't, yeah, it doesn't make the
sun any less valuable to the customer.

1192
01:00:02,420 --> 01:00:02,599
Not

1193
01:00:02,599 --> 01:00:02,900
at all.

1194
01:00:03,170 --> 01:00:04,390
In fact, it should make it better.

1195
01:00:05,359 --> 01:00:05,589
Right.

1196
01:00:05,590 --> 01:00:09,880
You know, and, and same thing, like
we use a 30 pound precision board

1197
01:00:11,290 --> 01:00:15,070
and in the industry, especially
10 years ago, that was unheard of.

1198
01:00:15,120 --> 01:00:17,570
Everyone used 15 pound or 18 pound.

1199
01:00:18,380 --> 01:00:18,760
Yep.

1200
01:00:19,370 --> 01:00:22,640
Uh, and people say, well,
30 pound is twice the money.

1201
01:00:23,295 --> 01:00:24,105
Is Yeah.

1202
01:00:24,105 --> 01:00:24,495
To buy it.

1203
01:00:24,525 --> 01:00:25,425
Yeah, I agree.

1204
01:00:25,425 --> 01:00:31,405
I don't disagree with that, but it
adds three times the value because

1205
01:00:31,945 --> 01:00:34,675
I mean, people say, well, how do
you sell to your expensive work?

1206
01:00:34,680 --> 01:00:35,275
And it's simple.

1207
01:00:35,275 --> 01:00:41,235
I said, I have a piece of thir 15 pound
in my shop, which I can take and run my

1208
01:00:41,235 --> 01:00:43,065
fingernail into in front of my customer.

1209
01:00:43,775 --> 01:00:47,255
I don't tell 'em my fingernails are as
tough as screwdriver, but I run my finger

1210
01:00:47,255 --> 01:00:48,725
and make this horrible scratch in it.

1211
01:00:48,995 --> 01:00:51,815
I, and then I hand my customer
a piece of 30 pound little

1212
01:00:51,815 --> 01:00:53,435
sample and he can't touch it.

1213
01:00:54,735 --> 01:00:56,435
Is will you, will you pay
a hundred bucks for that?

1214
01:00:56,455 --> 01:00:57,225
And he went, absolutely.

1215
01:00:57,225 --> 01:00:57,735
Well, guess what?

1216
01:00:57,735 --> 01:01:02,195
I just made money and I'm selling
a better product and I'm setting

1217
01:01:02,285 --> 01:01:03,685
myself apart from my competition.

1218
01:01:04,675 --> 01:01:04,915
Yeah.

1219
01:01:05,245 --> 01:01:07,485
It's never about price at all.

1220
01:01:07,905 --> 01:01:08,525
Not at all.

1221
01:01:09,235 --> 01:01:09,665
Not at all.

1222
01:01:11,495 --> 01:01:15,155
You know, and in these days of
hyperinflation, I mean, I had a customer

1223
01:01:15,155 --> 01:01:16,604
come to me, I bid a job last year.

1224
01:01:16,604 --> 01:01:17,305
They didn't do it.

1225
01:01:17,314 --> 01:01:19,975
They came back this year and they
say, we're expecting an increase,

1226
01:01:20,255 --> 01:01:22,245
um, but can you do the job this year?

1227
01:01:22,264 --> 01:01:22,594
Yes.

1228
01:01:22,625 --> 01:01:23,675
It's 20 percent more.

1229
01:01:25,255 --> 01:01:25,895
They went, okay.

1230
01:01:27,105 --> 01:01:27,555
Right.

1231
01:01:28,204 --> 01:01:29,495
Don't apologize for anything.

1232
01:01:29,775 --> 01:01:31,225
Be proud of what you do.

1233
01:01:31,225 --> 01:01:31,734
Right.

1234
01:01:31,734 --> 01:01:32,244
Absolutely.

1235
01:01:33,805 --> 01:01:34,145
Yeah.

1236
01:01:34,205 --> 01:01:36,945
If that's the message that everybody
takes away from this, a hundred

1237
01:01:36,945 --> 01:01:42,905
percent, um, As we transition into
a close, I, we always ask everybody

1238
01:01:42,905 --> 01:01:47,095
this, but what's the, what's the future
for you for Imagination Corporation?

1239
01:01:47,485 --> 01:01:48,074
Straight up.

1240
01:01:50,664 --> 01:01:51,194
Straight?

1241
01:01:51,525 --> 01:01:54,434
I'm, I'm more encouraged than
ever, you know, as I go through

1242
01:01:54,445 --> 01:01:56,184
Sinecraft or the competition.

1243
01:01:56,710 --> 01:02:00,190
Uh, magazine, the article or,
uh, issues of the magazines.

1244
01:02:00,340 --> 01:02:02,440
I think the quality is
improving in general.

1245
01:02:02,710 --> 01:02:06,949
There's still lots of crap out there, but
I don't, that's, I don't have competition.

1246
01:02:06,950 --> 01:02:07,809
I'm not worried about them.

1247
01:02:08,100 --> 01:02:09,260
I want to raise the industry.

1248
01:02:09,820 --> 01:02:12,899
Because the more I raise the industry,
the hap, the better it is for me.

1249
01:02:14,639 --> 01:02:19,040
I'm encouraged, but sign materials are
better than they've ever been in terms of

1250
01:02:19,040 --> 01:02:20,910
durability and, you know, all that stuff.

1251
01:02:21,960 --> 01:02:24,500
The internet has allowed
us to market worldwide.

1252
01:02:26,420 --> 01:02:27,710
I don't, there's no limit.

1253
01:02:28,800 --> 01:02:29,380
Great answer.

1254
01:02:30,480 --> 01:02:33,870
Uh, like personally for you,
Dan, like what, what do you

1255
01:02:33,870 --> 01:02:34,990
want to be remembered for?

1256
01:02:36,679 --> 01:02:40,790
I want to be remembered as, as
a fun guy who inspired people.

1257
01:02:41,590 --> 01:02:44,379
Hopefully I'm remembered for cool
work, but it won't last forever.

1258
01:02:45,200 --> 01:02:47,120
But and I want to be a family guy.

1259
01:02:47,130 --> 01:02:50,780
I want to be the best grandpa in
the world Uh, and I think we're

1260
01:02:50,780 --> 01:02:53,390
doing pretty good in that regard so

1261
01:02:54,250 --> 01:02:55,000
How many grandkids

1262
01:02:55,000 --> 01:02:55,380
do you have?

1263
01:02:55,750 --> 01:02:56,510
I have three.

1264
01:02:56,990 --> 01:03:00,950
Uh, the youngest one will probably
be the guy who uh takes over the

1265
01:03:00,959 --> 01:03:04,089
business He's five years old.

1266
01:03:04,760 --> 01:03:12,470
Uh henry, we built a little wooden
dinosaur a few months ago and He had fun.

1267
01:03:12,490 --> 01:03:13,520
We did it in our shop.

1268
01:03:13,550 --> 01:03:15,070
He cut out with a jigsaw.

1269
01:03:15,309 --> 01:03:19,320
I mean he's five years old And we
screwed it together And when we were

1270
01:03:19,320 --> 01:03:22,650
finished, he looked at me and he
said, Grandpa, he says, this is pretty

1271
01:03:22,650 --> 01:03:25,120
cool, but I think we can do better.

1272
01:03:26,300 --> 01:03:27,690
He said, I said, so what do you want?

1273
01:03:27,699 --> 01:03:31,360
He says, I want a dinosaur
that I can get in and drive.

1274
01:03:31,370 --> 01:03:32,520
It has to have a motor.

1275
01:03:33,019 --> 01:03:38,300
Uh, you know, and so we built one
for the parade on a golf cart.

1276
01:03:38,810 --> 01:03:42,719
You know, that's the guy that, you
know, he's going to stand on his dad's

1277
01:03:42,719 --> 01:03:44,799
shoulders who's standing on my shoulders.

1278
01:03:46,370 --> 01:03:48,160
Imagine where we're going to do then.

1279
01:03:48,310 --> 01:03:52,780
I mean, this is a kid who grew up and
built a 50 foot dinosaur in his sleep.

1280
01:03:53,630 --> 01:03:54,020
Wow.

1281
01:03:54,600 --> 01:03:55,140
Yeah, that's,

1282
01:03:56,340 --> 01:03:56,950
that's amazing.

1283
01:03:57,460 --> 01:03:59,550
So am I excited about the future?

1284
01:03:59,579 --> 01:04:00,289
Absolutely.

1285
01:04:00,920 --> 01:04:02,880
Uh, and I won't be able
to keep up to those guys.

1286
01:04:02,925 --> 01:04:03,015
Right.

1287
01:04:05,075 --> 01:04:05,225
Yeah.

1288
01:04:05,225 --> 01:04:05,375
How

1289
01:04:05,375 --> 01:04:10,445
could you at at five, he's like, Hey, this
is good grandpa, but what if we do this

1290
01:04:10,445 --> 01:04:10,535
love?

1291
01:04:10,715 --> 01:04:11,075
Yeah.

1292
01:04:11,075 --> 01:04:13,385
I mean, at at two, he, he
would come to me every day.

1293
01:04:13,475 --> 01:04:14,075
Am I big?

1294
01:04:14,135 --> 01:04:16,715
I said, oh, yeah, you, you,
I've definitely grown since last

1295
01:04:16,715 --> 01:04:19,355
night, you know, and we'd measure
him and he'd be all excited.

1296
01:04:19,360 --> 01:04:24,175
So, so can I learn the weld
today, ? Uh, not yet, but soon.

1297
01:04:24,715 --> 01:04:24,805
It, uh,

1298
01:04:25,395 --> 01:04:25,975
that's great.

1299
01:04:26,415 --> 01:04:26,955
That's great.

1300
01:04:27,275 --> 01:04:28,275
I super excited to,

1301
01:04:28,275 --> 01:04:29,845
didn't weld until I was in my twenties.

1302
01:04:31,145 --> 01:04:31,355
Yeah.

1303
01:04:31,355 --> 01:04:32,105
And he's ready.

1304
01:04:32,315 --> 01:04:33,155
He's ready now.

1305
01:04:33,805 --> 01:04:34,315
That's great.

1306
01:04:34,735 --> 01:04:38,065
Well, Dan, um, man, this has
been a great conversation.

1307
01:04:38,065 --> 01:04:39,435
I really appreciate you coming on.

1308
01:04:39,445 --> 01:04:42,815
This has been, um, like when we
first started the podcast, I was

1309
01:04:43,095 --> 01:04:45,935
like, I was making the short list
of folks that I wanted to talk to.

1310
01:04:46,475 --> 01:04:48,795
You were definitely right
up there at the top.

1311
01:04:49,394 --> 01:04:50,964
Uh, so I appreciate you coming on.

1312
01:04:51,125 --> 01:04:52,794
Uh, been a big inspiration for me.

1313
01:04:53,174 --> 01:04:53,434
Yeah.

1314
01:04:53,434 --> 01:04:54,864
Keep interviewing the best of the best.

1315
01:04:55,115 --> 01:04:56,695
I mean, we're all saying the same thing.

1316
01:04:57,345 --> 01:04:58,575
His reach for the stars.

1317
01:04:58,615 --> 01:04:59,515
Don't do crap.

1318
01:04:59,925 --> 01:05:04,135
Uh, you know, Dan Antonelli's is
designed like your life depends on it.

1319
01:05:04,265 --> 01:05:05,045
Absolutely.

1320
01:05:05,845 --> 01:05:06,145
Yeah, it's

1321
01:05:06,145 --> 01:05:11,345
amazing how different business models can
be, but the core values remain the same.

1322
01:05:11,805 --> 01:05:15,265
Yeah, Dan and I do very different stuff,
but Dan has been a hero of mine forever.

1323
01:05:15,315 --> 01:05:21,165
You know, I mean, Shane Durnford,
hero forever, you know, Tom McEltrot,

1324
01:05:21,204 --> 01:05:22,335
you know, these guys are all.

1325
01:05:22,895 --> 01:05:24,295
Excellence beyond excellence.

1326
01:05:27,135 --> 01:05:33,814
Um, any, anything we can promote for you
or, you know, obviously I think everybody

1327
01:05:33,815 --> 01:05:35,565
in the industry already knows who you guys

1328
01:05:35,565 --> 01:05:35,965
are.

1329
01:05:36,204 --> 01:05:41,775
Yeah, no, just, just good, promote good
stuff, you know, raise the bar, build

1330
01:05:41,775 --> 01:05:45,975
samples, uh, live, live your dream.

1331
01:05:46,605 --> 01:05:51,065
You know, if you want to do the good
stuff, start building samples today,

1332
01:05:52,635 --> 01:05:53,975
you know, put five minutes into it.

1333
01:05:55,675 --> 01:05:56,185
It adds up.

1334
01:05:58,375 --> 01:05:59,175
Perfect device.

1335
01:05:59,285 --> 01:06:00,215
Perfect device.

1336
01:06:01,545 --> 01:06:03,965
Um, Dan, thank you so much for coming on.

1337
01:06:04,015 --> 01:06:04,865
Really enjoyed it.

1338
01:06:05,445 --> 01:06:09,595
Uh, excited to, to launch this one
and hopefully, you know, sometime

1339
01:06:09,595 --> 01:06:10,924
in the future, we can have you back.

1340
01:06:11,235 --> 01:06:13,655
Uh, and maybe bring Peter on as well.

1341
01:06:13,795 --> 01:06:15,634
I think that could be
an interesting review

1342
01:06:15,634 --> 01:06:15,975
as well.

1343
01:06:16,314 --> 01:06:17,734
He's a much better guy than me.

1344
01:06:21,755 --> 01:06:22,895
Is he still sitting beside you?

1345
01:06:23,125 --> 01:06:25,875
No, he, he went, they're busy working.

1346
01:06:26,635 --> 01:06:27,415
That's even better.

1347
01:06:27,465 --> 01:06:29,765
He's not sitting beside you and
you're still singing his praises.

1348
01:06:29,765 --> 01:06:29,975
No,

1349
01:06:29,975 --> 01:06:31,075
he's, he is awesome.

1350
01:06:31,405 --> 01:06:33,344
He's my, he's my ultimate hero.

1351
01:06:34,885 --> 01:06:35,194
Oh, that's

1352
01:06:35,194 --> 01:06:35,805
great to hear.

1353
01:06:36,425 --> 01:06:37,564
Dan, thank you so much.

1354
01:06:37,734 --> 01:06:37,934
I

1355
01:06:37,995 --> 01:06:38,504
appreciate it.

1356
01:06:38,905 --> 01:06:39,575
My pleasure.

1357
01:06:39,805 --> 01:06:40,785
So that's the episode.

1358
01:06:40,805 --> 01:06:41,825
I hope you enjoyed it.

1359
01:06:42,015 --> 01:06:46,555
I'd like to give one final shout out
to our sponsor, GCI Digital Printing,

1360
01:06:46,755 --> 01:06:48,765
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1361
01:06:49,235 --> 01:06:51,694
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1362
01:06:52,084 --> 01:06:55,524
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1363
01:06:55,525 --> 01:06:57,795
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1364
01:06:58,175 --> 01:07:01,165
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1365
01:07:01,655 --> 01:07:03,505
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1366
01:07:03,965 --> 01:07:07,915
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1367
01:07:07,915 --> 01:07:09,745
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1368
01:07:10,295 --> 01:07:13,965
To hear more about their approach
to business, hop back into the

1369
01:07:13,965 --> 01:07:18,674
archives to episode 9, where the
guys and I interview owner TJ Biedakt

1370
01:07:18,674 --> 01:07:20,864
about top tier customer experience.

1371
01:07:21,355 --> 01:07:25,655
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1372
01:07:25,725 --> 01:07:30,825
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1373
01:07:31,300 --> 01:07:34,260
Check them out at PrintGCI.

1374
01:07:34,290 --> 01:07:34,600
com.

1375
01:07:35,710 --> 01:07:38,830
If you liked this episode,
make sure you hit subscribe to

1376
01:07:38,830 --> 01:07:40,260
get all the latest episodes.

1377
01:07:40,320 --> 01:07:43,380
And check out our website, BetterSignShop.

1378
01:07:43,390 --> 01:07:43,920
com.

1379
01:07:44,550 --> 01:07:47,860
Get free resources and helpful
tools on growing your shop.

1380
01:07:48,200 --> 01:07:49,220
Thanks for listening.