[00:00:00] Dan: Hello and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.

[00:00:12] Pia: And I am Pia Lee.

[00:00:14] Dan: Greetings Pia. How are you doing today?

[00:00:17] Pia: Well doing, I'm doing extremely well. And, um, and today is day four of a five day week, and what happens at the end of today for you, Mr. Hammond?

[00:00:27] Dan: Well, I knock off, yes, Thursday night I knock off, I must say, um, Fridays sometimes get a little bit, um, invaded by meetings or a little bit of work, but, uh, yeah, I do walk work a four, four day week cuz I'm very lucky to be able to do so, which is the topic of our little conversation today with, um, Joe Ryle. So, but I, but I think you and I have a long history of trying to dabble with this one, don't we?

[00:00:48] Pia: Well, we did because, so in a previous life, I remember you saying you wanted to work a four day week, and being as open as I was, I said, that'll never work. So obviously that set that up great deal of success. and yeah, you, you were, you were way ahead. I think you were, your thinking was way ahead, certainly way ahead, the mind. But, and you've always been an advocate of it, being smart, being smart with your time and, and, and creating that balance.

[00:01:15] Dan: It can become a self-fulfilling prophecy, but also to be honest, that that job became, Massive and I spent a lot of time traveling. It just didn't really turn into something that was, that was easy, but not losing that idea. Um, years later, revisited it and, um, hilariously I moved to four day week, took a cut in salary accordingly, and then within about a month, everyone was talking about all these companies, you know, going to 40, we cannot changing salary. I thought, what a sucker. Anyway, so, um, but uh,

[00:01:49] Pia: Oops.

[00:01:50] Dan: director of the company, I was partly responsible for my own downfall there. So, um, but yeah, we have a conversation with Joe Ryle who is leading the campaign, uh, for a four, eight weeks. I think this is a. Topical, subject. Really great moment to think about this and to explore, some of these questions that naturally arise from, um, from reducing your work hours and possibly making a total shift to a different way of looking at work. So let's go and hear from Joe now.

[00:02:16] 

[00:02:16] Dan: Joe, thank you so much for being on the show.

[00:02:22] Joe: Hi. Thank you. Thanks for having me on. 

[00:02:24] Dan: It's an absolute pleasure. Okay, so we're gonna start without these dreaded conversation starter cards. I'm actually gonna genuinely choose a card at random and see what you, see what you get. And here it is. Ah, The living person I most admire is 

[00:02:38] Joe: Big question. Is it, it used to be David Beckham as a kid. Um, but I think, I think I've gone off him a bit. Um, I, I would say, um, John McDonnell, who's the former labor shadow chancellor, was a, was a bit of a kind of hero for of mine. I, I was lucky to work for him. Um, and I learned, I learned a lot from him and his dedication to pushing causes that he believes in for a long time.

[00:02:59] So would say, yeah. And he got a lot of stick in the media during the corban years, but actually he is a lovely guy at heart, even though sometimes he can come across a bit angry. But, um, 

[00:03:07] Dan: yeah, he, he was sort of, I remember that he was sort of you, I can't remember which show it was, but, uh, he, he was sort of slightly mocked for that, wasn't he? Sort of Just keep it down, John. Keep it down. So talk a bit more about that. What, what sort of, what did you see in him that puts him on the top of that list for you?

[00:03:22] Joe: I think it was, well, he's, he's a very strategic, he's a very strategic brain. He is very strategically minded, which I would say probably was lacking a bit with Jeremy Corbyn. And, and, you know, people, there was a reason why people said John McDonnell was the brains behind that kind of era. Cuz it was, was mainly true, partly true. Um, and we, we, we spent a lot of time together. I, I, I worked. For three or four years and would, would accompany him around the country. And we were touring the country, making speeches and yeah, it was quite an exciting time for a lot of people involved.

[00:03:53] Um, and yeah, he is someone I've always looked up to. You know, someone who's, who's, who's kind of gone against the grain for a very long time, um, and not wavered on their, on this kind of political views and political beliefs. And I've got a lot of respect for him. 

[00:04:05] Dan: Him. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. Great. Great to hear. Really nice to hear those. When you get close to these people in power that they, 

[00:04:11] Pia: they're nice. 

[00:04:12] Dan: actually, they, they've, they've passed musta and they're decent people. That's, yeah. They're nice. Exactly.

[00:04:17] Joe: Not, not all of them, but um, some 

[00:04:19] Pia: No. 

[00:04:20] Dan: No, no, of course.

[00:04:21] Pia: I think. I think we know that one, but it's very nice to hear of one. That is nice. But, um, Joe, tell us a bit about you and, um, and how you, you are now involved in the, in the four day week campaign.

[00:04:32] Joe: Yeah, so I was, I guess while I was working for, for Labor Party, um, one of the policies that, um, labor adopted was a four day working week. And I remember being involved in conversations about it at the time, and it just, you know, someone that. Up until two and a half years ago when I started working on the camp, before they campaign, I, you know, someone who had worked a kind of nine to five, five day working week or longer, you know, during Labor Party years I was working a lot, lot, a lot longer hours than that, as you can probably imagine.

[00:05:01] Um, and it just struck me that I did, it wasn't a good, I mean, on a very simple level, there was no work life balance. Um, and I often felt that my. Uh, self-identity sort of outside of work was, was diminished or lost or so in, in some way, by the amount of that, that work would dominate my life and it, it didn't, didn't make me happy really.

[00:05:23] Um, and so yeah, was, it was very interesting the idea already. And then as soon as the, uh, The 2019 general election was over and labor didn't do so well. I just thought, you know, that there's something in that four day week policy that, that, that resonates with a, you know, a, a really large majority of people in this country. And I thought it had legs to, to go further and be taken forwards after that era. And yeah, that was why I ended up with the campaign already existed. And I ended up just kind of going along to a meeting, uh, you know, saying I was really excited to be involved. And then quite luckily, through different contacts and stuff, got some funding in and ended up taking over in a way and becoming the director and we now have, you know, three or four staff. And, uh, yeah, as I'm sure we'll get onto it a little bit. You know, the idea has really come a long, long distance in the last few years since the pandemic. 

[00:06:12] Dan: Definitely, it's a fascinating time to be talking about this, I think, because even, even a few years ago, this was apart from probably forward thinking organizations, this was sort of slightly a crazy idea and people would say, well, you'll just get 20% less work done or whatever. Um, talk, talk us through the sort of thinking behind this and what science there is.

[00:06:31] Joe: Yeah, sounds good. I mean, our, our slogan is that, you know, we should be working to live rather than living to work. Um, which I think hopefully sums it up. You know, the, the, the work should not be dominating our lives in this way. That, you know, means that we don't have much time for anything else. And I, I do think there's a generational shift going on. 

[00:06:48] I think for my generation. I'm, I'm 30, 32, and the generation below me, you know, I, I, I think they've looked, they've looked at their grandparents' generation, their parents' generation, and, and I think they, you know, I don't think they want their lives to be dominated in the same way as it has been for them. So I think that's happening anyway.

[00:07:05] So there's all those kind of positive reasons for society, for wellbeing, for mental health. It's, you know, a, a sort of fairly straightforward and easy to underst. But also what we've now seen through evidence from all across the world, from different, you know, numerous studies, numerous trials and pilots of the four day week, because it actually, it seems to be good for productivity too. Um, seems to be, you know, have a, a good impact for the economy.

[00:07:26] Um, and actually when you think about it, it's not surprising. You know, if you're better arrested, you've had that, that extra time for yourself, whatever you need to do in your life, then you are gonna be performing better in your job. You are gonna be more motivated to perform better in your job. And that's where all these productivity improvements are coming from. And, and the vast majority of cases, you know, workers are finding they can get at least the same amount of work done in four days as they were doing in five and in, in many cases, actually being more productive, getting more work done, being more effective in four days rather than five. So in that scenario, you know, you have to ask the question, what's not to like about it? 

[00:07:59] Dan: Yes, yes, indeed. I mean, and I, well, I, I, personal notes. I moved to a four day week. I'm trying to think when it was actually, COVID sort of disrupted my view of time a little bit, but, um, but I think it was three or four years ago. And I have to say just the personal experience has been that it has an uncanny effect on, a disproportionate effect. I would say it seems like the week is about half as long and the weekend is twice as long, and it doesn't sort of add up mathematically, but, um, but somehow it seems to, it does have a huge effect. So there's something about those four days that just seems to be, just seems to make sense actually. It's not, it's a big, it's a big shift actually from five, which is presumably well established from way back.

[00:08:50] Joe: Yeah, exactly. And do, do you have for a three day weekend

[00:08:52] Dan: I do, yes, I do, a Friday. Yeah. That's the way I do it. I have a friend who, who has his day off in the middle of the week, but I do a three day weekend, yeah, 

[00:08:59] Joe: Yeah. Cause that's what we've found is that, yeah, for most, most workers, you know, and in some cases it won't be possible for everyone to have a Friday off, but there is, there's something transformational about having that three days off in a row, whether it's a Friday or a Monday off. Having those three days in a row really gives you that break from work that, that, you know, is, is needed actually. 

[00:09:17] Dan: Yeah. And where, where did the five day week come from? 

[00:09:20] Joe: Well, that's really interesting and you know, actually is really important context for the, for the fight for a four day week today. So it was, it was about almost exactly a hundred years ago that we moved from a six day working week to a five day working week. It used to be that everyone worked on a Saturday as well. And through, you know, high profile campaigns by the Trade Union movement and also, you know, some early pioneering companies, actually Boots in the UK were one of the first companies to, to scrap the Saturday and to move to a five day working week. Um, over a period of about a decade or two, you know, the, the Western world basically shifted from a six day working week to a five day working week.

[00:09:58] So it's almost a hundred years ago, and. We say, we say this quite a lot, but you know that, that, that nine to five, five day working week and variations of that, you know, that was designed for, for, for what was an industrial agricultural economy at the time. Um, and obviously the economy's completely transformed since then, but yet for some weird reason, bizarre reason, we're still wedded to this nine to five, five day working week model. And it actually just doesn't make a lot of sense for most people. 

[00:10:22] Pia: So what, um, what are you seeing Joe as the resistance from businesses and organizations to four day working week? Because I would imagine, people of my age would actually balk at that as, as, uh, business owners because it ju they just somehow mathematically wouldn't add up. 

[00:10:42] Joe: Yeah, well, I mean there is that weird sort of nostalgia for the, for the nine to five, five day working week model, this kind of idea that, just because some things all always existed like that, that it's, that it's necess, you know, whether that's necessarily the best reason, best model of work or not, there seems to be that kind of holding onto it. Uh, for some reason there's a bit of resistance there, but I think from businesses, I think, you know, and you've touched on it already, there, there can be that feeling of disbelief. You know, like how could it be possible to get you, you know, be just as effective as an organization over four days? Right? How could that be possible? People are working one day less. 

[00:11:12] And, you know, I think, I think what's happened in the last couple of years is all the evidence coming out now is, is, is really taking away some of those fears, taking away some of that fear factor and showing, you know, this is possible and, and, you know, hundreds if not thousands of companies over the world have proved that. 

[00:11:28] Um, you know, there would of course be complexities in some industries in terms of implementation and, and there's some resistance there. Uh, you know, we're not talking about a four day, week overnight for everyone. It'd have to be a transition to get there, you know, as, as I imagine would be quite similar to the, to the shift from a six day week to five day week over a period of a decade or something like that. And hopefully, you know, hopefully this year is, is the start of that trend.

[00:11:51] Pia: I, was sort of slight a rise smile to myself about nine to five, because I don't think that exists anymore. And actually I think people are working, you know, 7:00 AM to 8:00 PM I don't, I don't, I mean, certainly here, down in Australia, we, a 10 hour day is, is the norm. And sometimes the challenge about a four day working week is that actually work longer and harder during the four days to somehow make up for the fifth day that's off. And I, and I wonder whether that can have a negative impact?

[00:12:27] Joe: Well, certainly under compressed hours model, which is, is something we, you know, we've never advocated for and we're very clear about that. You know, we don't accredit any companies that are compressing the same amount of hours of over 5 million to four. You know, for us it has to be about reduction in hours. And, and the aim is for release, you know, 32 hours or below, uh, over a working week. I mean, the average in the UK is still 37 to 38 hours. Over the weeks, there's still, you can, you can see the, the way to go there still is. 

[00:12:53] Um, but yeah, there's all sorts of insecurities, I guess in the economy right now when it comes to work, you think about zero hours contracts, um, which actually make this a lot more difficult. And, you know, we've, we've always said the 4 day week's not gonna solve all the problems of the economy. You know, some of it's down to low, you know, low wages, zero hours contracts. Some of these things need to be fixed as well to enable 40 weeks be possible for everyone.

[00:13:17] But you know, at the end of the day, most people are, if you look at the evidence in UK anyway, there was, there was a study out a couple of weeks ago by the CIPD showed that, you know, actually about 60 to 65% of the people are still working this quite rigid five day working week, whether it's nine to five or 10 till six. It's that sort of model. Um, obviously people will do overtime as well, which is a problem in itself, but that is still the majority way of working. 

[00:13:39] Dan: I think you mentioned the generational shift, Joe. I, is there, is there a, a change in the sort of balance of power, if you like? Cause if I think about the, the past, you know, the, the companies have. As, as Pia said, yes, you're contracted to, I've signed loads of these contracts. You've gotta work 37 and a half hours or whatever. But there's a paragraph, there's a, there's a clause in there saying, and all the other hours, the company wishes you to work. Um, and it's sort of, it's ex, it's, when you look back, it's absolutely, it's absurd in a way, but, but the company held the power. Is there a site shift now where companies have to, to attract this next generation who have this different view of the way life work fits into life?

[00:14:22] Joe: I think so, and I, I think, I think we're just at the very beginning of that. I think it's just only in the last year or so where we've seen a bit more of that power in the hands of workers who, you know, are, who are looking around for better working conditions, whether it's better to pay more flexibility, less hours. Um, and you know, one of the best things that companies and businesses can do if they're serious about retaining staff, uh, you know, job retention, attracting new talent, you know, is offer a four day working week with no loss of pay, cuz that. You know, easily the most popular option in terms of what people are looking for when it comes to the kind of polling and survey data.

[00:14:56] So we've seen that, you know, we've, we've seen that one of the best, my best fact on this is, uh, Adam Bank, who are the biggest four day week employer in the uk. They, when they moved to a four day week in the space of three months, just three months, uh, job applications went up by 500% in their organization. I think. that does show, you know, the impacts and the benefits the businesses can get in terms of job recruitment and retention.

[00:15:20] Dan: And if you dive into what actually happens when people move from a five day to a four day week, we know the productivity is still as high. How do people change their work? So I'm working five days now. I'm going to move to four days. This, the, the, the evidence tells us that I'm going to be as productive, not a, and and obviously there are societal benefits are gonna be less tired. All those things outside work. What, what, how do people adapt to that four day week to make them to, to maintain that productivity?

[00:15:51] Joe: That's a really good question. Um, so on the, on the pilot that we ran with 70 companies, 3,300 workers, it's the biggest pilot, um, of a four day week so far in the world, we, there was an onboarding phase of all of those companies, which was about two to three months, where we ran workshops with those companies and with workers to talk things which they could think about or implement to make the transition to a four day week smooth. And so some of that was, yeah, it was quite simple about kind of cutting down meeting times, cutting down the length. Yeah, the amount of meetings, the length of meetings. You know, it's quite common in organizations to have a meeting about, a meeting, about another meeting. You know, cutting all of that down.

[00:16:30] Uh, also looking at people's, you know, in, in, in the more, uh, significant cases, looking at people's job descriptions and actually considering, you know, what. , what in people's job descriptions actually contributes to the effective output or productivity of an organization? And the fascinating thing was that for, for a couple of companies, I'm not gonna name them, they didn't even know what their, you know, their output was, you know, what they were measuring success by for their organization. And so partly the conversation around a four day week has been quite useful just because of that reason to actually consider what are your workers trying to achieve? And once you start from there, you suddenly, there's a, you can suddenly identify a lot of tasks that people do in their day-to-day work that actually isn't particularly useful. Um, so some of, you know you can cut some of that down.

[00:17:15] Uh, yeah. And different people have implemented different ways of working, different kind of systems like Slack and that sort of thing. Just sort of streamline the way people work and, yeah. 

[00:17:25] And then, and then, you know, the, the basic principle, you know, is working smarter rather than working harder. It's not about, um, it's not about, you know, absolutely working yourself to death in those four days. And sometimes it, it will be a little bit like that. You know, even for me, sometimes on a Thursday I'm really busy cuz I, I know that. I'm not gonna be working the next day. And actually, you know, it's fine. You know, it's not like, it's not, it's manageable and, uh, people, people don't mind being a bit busy. I don't think, you know, people, it's good to have, it's good to have stuff to be, to be contributing to at work.

[00:17:55] Um, and there is that a few workers have actually quoted as well. They've said, you know, there's, come back in some of the anecdotal evidence, they've said, it's almost like you naturally become more efficient overnight just by having to put your work over four days rather than five. You know, you do naturally adjust as, as we've seen with people, workers adjusting to remote work and during the pandemic, you know, there is a period of adjustment and actually we're quite good at that.

[00:18:18] Dan: Yeah. I think if that was my personal experience as well, 

[00:18:21] Pia: And I was gonna say, that's interesting that you mentioned about the pandemic because, you know, two-thirds of the working world is now hybrid and, um, you know, when you've got a hybrid workforce and, and some of your people on a four day working week, um, does this put extra pressure on the team leader, the manager? 

[00:18:41] Joe: Yeah. Well, it's interesting. I mean, I mean, I think you have to take the, you have to take the two issues as as slightly separate kind of remote working and four day week. Of course, you know, if they're gonna be implemented together, you need to think about that. But for us, we are not, you know, we think there are benefits of, of people being in the office. Um, it doesn't need to be four days a week, but two days on, two days off. That sort of arrangement seems to be the most popular option because there's, there are benefit. Just on a human collection level, you know, humans coming together, working things out together, not not through a screen.

[00:19:12] Um, so it, you know, I'm not gonna lie, it does present challenges for, for line managers and bosses, but they're, I've not heard of any, not heard of any disaster supports in that way. And actually where it tends to work best is where the managers are really actively involved in that change too. So there's a co a couple of situations you've had where managers have been like, oh, staff now four day week, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna do five day week, cuz I've got. Loads more to be getting on with and that actually doesn't set a good example, um, and can lead to further problems in the long run where, you know, the rest of the workforce are feeling guilty about taking a day off and that, you know, you want to avoid that really.

[00:19:48] Dan: I find that fascinating actually, because there is a myth, isn't there? That the leader, that the manager. We spent a lot of time in leadership development and one of the things we spent a lot of time in that doing is convincing the manager that they don't, they shouldn't be doing the work of the team, that they should be sharing that, spending their time leading. But it's interesting how the four day week seems to. Almost sort of, um, amplify some of, you know, the shift to it sort of raises these issues like, as you say, people don't really know what their, their roles are, um, so they're inefficient and, and that's those sorts of attitudes about, well, I'll just keep working really hard because I'm the most important. I've gotta keep, keep going.

[00:20:26] It's, it's, um, yeah. I find that fascinating is almost puts a magnifying glass on how, um, how on the, actually the, the problems that already exist, it almost brings them to the surface, it seems.

[00:20:38] Joe: Yeah, exactly. Exactly right. Yeah. It brings them to the surface and there's actually, there's, you know, there's a number of organizations that even just, they didn't, didn't actually even go ahead of it, but just the, the fact of just considering the mood to 40 week has actually been really, really valuable to them in terms of looking at the way that they work and looking at where there's inefficiencies. Looking at where, you know, works, falling disproportionately on some people's shoulders rather than others. And, and why is that?

[00:21:02] And you know, the most common thing that comes back when, when workers from the worker's side, when they're about to move to 40 week, is this kind of feeling of, well I'm, when I'm struggling to get the work done anyway in five days, how am I gonna get it done in four? And it's like, well that needs to be looked, looked at in and of itself. You know, that's a problem already. Uh, and if that can be addressed as part of moving to a four day week, then it does make the whole, whole transition a lot smoother and much easier.

[00:21:26] Dan: I, I think that sort of weird overnight change happened for me. I thought, Focused and efficient and actually moving to four days just made me just take that up to the next level and, and really get very clear about the things I'm going to do and the things I'm not going to do it. For me, I had the same experience really. It was sort of, oh, four days. Now I need to actually improve my working practices, which I thought were fine before, but I actually really have now, I just put those chunky things into play. Let the other things go. And I, and I think that's how I've improved my productivity of anything just by doing the right things. 

[00:22:01] Joe: You can't really explain that in data and hard evidence, and it's, it is more of a kinda anecdote. And the, the, the good thing about the report, so the, the big pilot we've been running of 70 companies, the, the results are gonna be out in February next year. And a lot, a lot of interviews have taken place. There's been, I think over 60 to 80 interviews with staff, with managerial level, and a lot of that's gonna be come out in the report. So hopefully we'll get some of this out there for people to read and understand better. Cuz it, some of it is anecdotal and you can't always, you can't always show that in, in nice stats, nice tables. 

[00:22:30] But, but I would say, you know, on the productivity issue more generally, you know, it is, productivity has been stagnant in this country for quite a long time. And the interesting thing is though we are the UK you know, there is an acute issue here in the UK of productivity where we work some of the longest hours in Europe, um, while having, you know, the least productive economy in comparison. So all these long working hours we're putting in aren't making us more productive, aren't producing good results. Um, we also have the fewest number of bank holidays as well, just to rub it in. 

[00:23:01] Dan: Yes, that's right. and all at the wrong times as well. But that's, that's another probably topic for another, another show. Um, yeah, but that is a very, for society, that's a very bad combination, isn't it? Because we're not generating, we're putting the time in to work and. Not having those benefits of having more free time for other things while not generating the cash to be able to pay for things. So we're, yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's a, it's a tricky spot. It's a bad spot to be in, isn't it 

[00:23:28] Joe: Yeah, so, you know, they, they, yeah, they talk about it as a kind of productivity puzzle, don't they? And they've been attempting for decades to try and work it out. But actually one thing, one thing we haven't tried yet is, you know, fundamentally reducing working hours across the board. And I think if you look at Germany, if you look at France, if you look at, uh, Belgium, other countries, you know, they, they do work less hours, uh, significantly less hours over average full-time week, and they are more productive. You know, I think there's, I can't remember what it exactly what it's, but some, something in Financial Times a couple of years ago about, you know, how in France they've basically got all the same amount of work done by, by the end of a kind of Wednesday or something than we, you know, in terms of productivity as than we do here, so.

[00:24:07] Pia: Pro, we, we probably drink more tea than they do. That's, that's probably the thing. And, and it does really, I mean, I think it questions, uh, I think my only challenge around it is it questions what we are doing. Spending time traveling into a workplace is sometimes a bit of a waste of time, which could be spent being more effective working. And then there are days, you know, when you're in the office where you've got nothing done and you've just been firefighter, you've been completely unproductive because almost the nature of being together has sort of, has been disruptive and, and other days of course it's completely different.

[00:24:44] And then I know my own experience, I've tried to take some Fridays off, but being a business that's run by clients that all work on Fridays, I've found that extremely difficult to do, because at a stage of growth of the business, it, it may be a bit of an impediment. 

[00:25:01] Joe: Yeah, well there's, you know, it's certainly gonna be a lot easier if, for example, you know, this is our ideal scenario. This is what we're kind of working towards. You know, we, we, we keep saying we want the four day week to be the normal way of working by end of this decade. You know, if the government, you know, kind of backed it, um, alongside business leaders, alongside trade union leaders, industry leaders, and you know, had a kind of long-term plan for getting there, then you can, you can start to see how society, and, you know, the economy starts to shift there together.

[00:25:27] Um, without that it can, you know, it is gonna be a lot more messy. There are gonna be. You know, and we've seen that of the pilot we're running where, where there's all sorts of different variations of the four day week. You know, some people are rotating days off, so as you were saying, Dan, you know, some people are having Wednesday off, some people are having Thursdays off. Um, to be able to, you know, basically just as an acceptance that they're moving to a four day week in a world which is still largely dominated by the five day week. And that does bring challenges. Um, but you know, we have to start somewhere and. It. Yeah. The evidence does look like for the vast majority of, of, of companies and organizations in this country, you know, they could get on with doing this, this now. 

[00:26:05] Dan: Joe, if you just thinking about teams, um, and the way people work with others, it struck the, the benefits you said you spoke about early on where people are less tired, they've probably got in a better mindset, um, that often help makes us better at sort of getting away from just thinking about ourselves. We, we are more likely to look, you know, connect with our stakeholders, have a bigger view, maybe be more patient with people, more thoughtful, have more time for people.

[00:26:33] Joe: Yeah. I mean, I mean, you know, ultimately the, the four day week is about enabling us to live happier and more fulfilled lives, and there's all been all sorts of amazing stories, and that's where I've taken the most pleasure in, in this job actually, is like meeting those workers and hearing those stories from, from what people are doing on the extra day off.

[00:26:49] And for, for some people it is self-growth, self-development. Well, someone was saying a company the other week that, you know, they've had the time to go and seek therapy for something they'd never dealt with as a kid or something. Um, something like that of others, you know, it's volunteering in the community, people going off and doing all kinds of volunteering roles and being more active participants in their local community, which is only gonna bring about a happier and more integrated society in the future.

[00:27:12] So, and also, you know, I should say that as part of the kind of essential shift to a, to a, a newer low carbon society, you know, having more time is one of the is, not having enough time is one of the barriers to that. And four day week we've seen has given workers the, the time to live more sustainable lifestyles. You know, whether it's, uh, you know, growing their own veg or that sort of thing. Um, you know, it just does. Time is essential, isn't it, for, for anything you want to do in life. 

[00:27:41] Dan: Definitely. Um, so Joe, thank you. Can you leave us with, um, you know, a final tip for our listener? Maybe they're thinking I could really do it, doing, trying to make that happen. How would you advise people to try to make some steps in this direction?

[00:27:57] Joe: So the first bit of advice I always give, and I always say this to, to any company or any organization that considering 40 week is, is simply don't overthink it. Um, and we've seen this a number of times where. You know, organizations have tried to try to think about every single possible eventuality of moving to a four day week. You know, tried to consider every single person's work in an organization, sometimes up to, you know, a thousand employees bigger than, you know, trying to anticipate how it's gonna work and how it's gonna impact them on that day and that week and with that task and it, you just get lost in that. Um, you know, and, and we do recommend that the companies trial it first, whether it's for three months or six months, um, and the pop point of a trial is to see what works.

[00:28:39] And of course there's gonna be challenges, there'll be challenges of any major change in the way that we work. Um, but, you know, don't overthink it. Give it a go. And, and if, if management are feeling unsure about it, you know, pitch it on the basis of a trial. It's a trial. For six months, we're gonna see if it works. There doesn't, has to be no commitment at the end of it to, to make it work, but, um, give it a go because it's, it's, it's a movement which is taking off and hopefully is gonna be the future of 

[00:29:04] Dan: Indeed. Indeed, indeed. So, um, Joe, it's been great to hear, um, everything you are doing to, to move in that direction. I think it's, it's, we're, it's, it's really great work and, and, and not an obvious thing for people to be able to, to do right now. So, uh, thank you for all your hard work and thank you for taking, um, taking the time to join us on the show today. 

[00:29:23] Joe: Oh, no worries. Thanks for having me. Thanks for the invitation. 

[00:29:29] Dan: You know, I remember years ago, it must be 25 years ago, a friend of Juliet's know my wife Juliet's. Um, Roz, um, would say, you know, what this five, how come how this, how, why is this five two, which should be four days working three days weekend. That would be obviously much fairer. And I remember it was just a bit of a joke really. We'd think how hilarious how we laughed. But here we are actually talking about it. So, um, things that were funny. 30 years ago, 25 years ago, are now actually coming to reality for a very good reason, I think. 

[00:30:02] Pia: I think so much has happened in the world of work, you know, particularly in the last, last couple of years that everything is a little bit up for grabs and it's much more around, you know, around the balance. and around productivity. it's an interesting one, I think, um, bosses, CEOs, leaders have to look at themselves and see about their own anxiety levels about what they perceive to be productivity equaling time. You know, I think that we, we tend to think that if we've got everyone in at five days a week and they're working reasonably long days, then that's, that equates to high performance, and I think we've proved that's not necessarily the case.

[00:30:43] Dan: Yeah, I think that's right. I think that's right. I suppose those movements, as you say, a lot has changed. We're now actually aware of, we're aware of mental health, we're aware of the impact of sleep, and we're aware on the, of the impact of rest. Um, you know, back in the day it was the grind. And I do, I keep, keep returning to this, but we've, we brought that model of the industrial revolution where people are making pins or whatever and you know, brought that into the office world. And we are knowledge workers now to a lot, many of us are knowledge workers. I think we've also talked about people who aren't. But you know, in that case it's a question of, you know, your quality of thinking, your mental health and so on, that become, comes to the fore and, and, uh, and a little bit more balance makes sense. 

[00:31:25] But, It is also worth saying that a lot of the things we talk about here and that the LinkedInerate talk about are really for the privileged few. Not everyone can afford to do this. Um, and not every every organization can do this. So I think while we explore these these things, it is worth remembering that it's a privilege to even think about such a thing. And I, I certainly personally feel that way.

[00:31:50] Pia: I think so. I think too, that it's about your relationship to work and to working hours and what as a whole system's gonna work better for you, you know, as, as an individual. So I take today as an example, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm not, I'm finding four day weeks more difficult because it just seems to be that clients want to have meetings on Fridays.

[00:32:16] And so, but then I look at it and go, like today, for instance, I think, well, I took an hour out to go and have breakfast with my daughter today and I took another hour out to go and have a swim in a water hole, you know, because it was very hot. 

[00:32:32] And I look at that and I think of, you've gotta, you break that rigid mold, that it's the number of hours and that equals productivity. It's more around how am I gonna set myself up if I'm able to, to be successful? And so it's a much more liberating and a mature way. It doesn't work in every, every organization and I, I too believe and, and understand and value actually how lucky I am, have some of that autonomy, but you can also become a prisoner of yourself and become if you, you know, become that the worst boss, which is yourself.

[00:33:07] Dan: Yes. Oh completely. And you beast yourself. And, it's, it's not healthy and I'm learning. I did a lot of that, and I'm really learning too, as you say, not just in those days when I'm, I think, I think actually it's a really good point. The, the, that four day week is in away a blunt instrument, isn't it? To say, take time out and do some things.

[00:33:28] It's worked for me because actually I do then practice, I do then do things on that day, specific things, so that helps. Even if work does creep into that day. Sometimes, as I say, sometimes clients and you know, really want to do that, that's fine, but it does allow me to love it in reality. Having that looser grip on our days and being able, being able to be much more mindful about how we use our time, go for a dip in a water hole, whatever it is. But that's a more sophisticated thing.

[00:33:54] But as we get into the corporate world, and even for ourselves, we sometimes use this, this is a sort of a blunt instrument, but I think a good one potentially just to sort of organize ourselves and force a change of behavior. But I think your, the way you're doing things there is, is, is a, is a higher level, high order of things.

[00:34:13] Uh, but it is interesting, Pia uh, uh, you know, if you, let's just talk about the practicalities of this, because I certainly had trouble and I moved to a four day week of, oh, my clients want a meeting on a Friday. Even through last year, I had a bit of this, which was, do I say I don't work on a Friday? What does that look like? How, how, how does that make me, you know, you are working on a Friday. I'm not working on a Friday. I'm here to serve you. You know, but not that day cuz I'm,

[00:34:38] Pia: Are you a slacker

[00:34:39] Dan: I can't, I'm slacking on a Friday. So honestly, I have, it's not been easy to, to do it and I've had to have a little bit of courage and I've, I admire people who just, you know, getting a few messages now, people saying I don't work on that day. And it actually works okay. But I think it does require a little bit of flexibility, but I've found it's required cover courage for me to say that's my identity. I do other things on that day. But it's, it's, yeah, sort of, yeah. I, I'm here for you, but not on Friday. It's a tricky message,

[00:35:09] Pia: I know, but you know, sometimes the clarity of boundaries actually just makes it easier. So, and also you can make a personal choice to think, well actually I really need to be, that person needs me to be there. I can give, give that, give that bit up. That's a personal choice too. Don't have to be rigid about it.

[00:35:26] Dan: Exactly. Oh gosh. I might, well I'll try flexibility, um, personal challenge for me, but, uh, no, it was a exactly. But that was a great conversation and really, um, relevant for our time. So I'd love to hear from our listeners, um, about this topic, how they are doing.

[00:35:44] But, uh, that is it for this episode. You can find show. And resources at squadify.net, just click on the We Not Me podcast link. If you've enjoyed the show, please share the love and recommend it to your friends. Also, please do give us a rating on your favorite podcast platform. If you'd like to contribute to the show, just email us at wenotmepod@gmail.com or leave a VO voice note. You'll find the link in the show notes. We Not Me, is produced by Mark Steadman of Origin. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.

[00:36:14] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.