WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.170 --> 00:00:01.120 Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for joining us. 00:00:01.190 --> 00:00:03.230 Welcome to Live Free, Ride Free. 00:00:03.410 --> 00:00:06.810 I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times bestselling author of 00:00:06.830 --> 00:00:08.389 The Horseboy and The Long Ride Home. 00:00:08.450 --> 00:00:13.089 Before I jump in with today's guest, I want to say a huge thank you to you, our 00:00:13.089 --> 00:00:14.989 audience, for helping to make this happen. 00:00:15.000 --> 00:00:15.949 I have a request. 00:00:16.219 --> 00:00:19.750 If you like what we do here, please give it a thumbs up, 00:00:19.799 --> 00:00:22.380 like, subscribe, tell a friend. 00:00:22.770 --> 00:00:24.910 It really, really helps us to make the pro. 00:00:24.910 --> 00:00:28.930 To find out about our certification courses, online video libraries, 00:00:29.435 --> 00:00:33.325 books, and other courses, please go to rupertisaacson.com. 00:00:34.894 --> 00:00:36.125 So now let's jump in. 00:00:36.775 --> 00:00:38.335 Welcome back to the show. 00:00:38.335 --> 00:00:40.345 I've got Karen Rolf here. 00:00:40.735 --> 00:00:42.355 A lot of you already know who she is. 00:00:42.405 --> 00:00:46.005 Her work precedes her and her program. 00:00:46.185 --> 00:00:55.565 Dressage naturally has been one of the, I'd say lynchpin approaches to trying to 00:00:55.565 --> 00:01:02.374 bring something a bit more humane back to dressage, which unfortunately, over 00:01:02.374 --> 00:01:08.414 the last few decades seems to have become dressage in, for horses and humans a bit. 00:01:08.854 --> 00:01:12.574 But more than that, she, she's got a lot more to her and her life and her 00:01:12.574 --> 00:01:16.145 work and her philosophy is something which I've been, you know, wanting 00:01:16.145 --> 00:01:17.465 a chance to explore for a while. 00:01:17.465 --> 00:01:22.025 So I'm, I'm quite excited that she's one of the people who. 00:01:22.789 --> 00:01:27.890 Has really trot a path of sort of horses and self-actualization and bringing 00:01:27.890 --> 00:01:32.630 together certain aspects of nature and the mind through the equine field. 00:01:32.630 --> 00:01:35.390 So Karen, thank you for coming on. 00:01:35.509 --> 00:01:41.774 Can you tell us, you know, a bit about your work, who you are and, and sort of 00:01:41.774 --> 00:01:44.240 how you got here, or why did you get here? 00:01:46.309 --> 00:01:46.729 Karen Rohlf: That's a lot. 00:01:46.729 --> 00:01:48.889 Well, first of all, Rupert, thank you so much for asking 00:01:48.889 --> 00:01:50.600 me to join you on this podcast. 00:01:50.600 --> 00:01:54.790 It's it's fun to, to be able to sit and, and speak with you and hang 00:01:54.790 --> 00:01:55.840 out with you for a little while. 00:01:55.840 --> 00:01:58.430 So I really appreciate being here. 00:01:59.150 --> 00:02:00.770 But let's see where to start. 00:02:00.770 --> 00:02:07.610 I mean, I, I started, and this is really important to mention because it's, 00:02:07.670 --> 00:02:09.920 it's pervasive through, through me. 00:02:09.920 --> 00:02:11.420 It's just a little kid. 00:02:12.350 --> 00:02:13.370 In love with horses. 00:02:13.460 --> 00:02:16.070 You know, I was just one of those horse, crazy horse girls. 00:02:16.070 --> 00:02:16.610 I want a horse. 00:02:16.610 --> 00:02:17.150 I want a horse. 00:02:17.150 --> 00:02:17.810 I want a horse. 00:02:18.530 --> 00:02:21.840 And lucky enough that my mom had a horse for a little while when I 00:02:21.840 --> 00:02:24.270 was seven and was all very low key. 00:02:24.270 --> 00:02:26.970 This was like property at the end of our street. 00:02:26.970 --> 00:02:29.130 She did some fox hunting for a little while. 00:02:29.130 --> 00:02:32.935 I was not a, a showgirl, you know, it was not like Where 00:02:32.935 --> 00:02:34.020 Rupert Isaacson: was this, where did you grow up? 00:02:34.020 --> 00:02:35.250 Karen Rohlf: This was on Long Island. 00:02:35.670 --> 00:02:35.970 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:02:36.270 --> 00:02:36.810 Karen Rohlf: Yeah. 00:02:36.900 --> 00:02:39.450 Smithtown Hunt the Smith. 00:02:39.570 --> 00:02:39.839 Yeah. 00:02:39.839 --> 00:02:40.859 Smithtown Hunt. 00:02:41.040 --> 00:02:41.430 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:02:41.480 --> 00:02:43.550 Karen Rohlf: Near where Harry Dele was. 00:02:43.610 --> 00:02:45.170 His place was near us. 00:02:45.170 --> 00:02:50.680 And yeah, in the historic town of Au New York, part of the Revolutionary War. 00:02:50.740 --> 00:02:52.390 So there's some history. 00:02:52.850 --> 00:02:55.100 But yeah, I was not into showing. 00:02:55.100 --> 00:02:56.510 It wasn't, that was never my goal. 00:02:56.510 --> 00:02:59.270 I just like loved horses and wanna hang out with horses and 00:02:59.270 --> 00:03:00.710 got a horse when I was a kid. 00:03:01.445 --> 00:03:06.454 And did pony club and all that, and mostly spent a lot of time alone with my 00:03:06.454 --> 00:03:10.174 horse in the bushes doing stupid things. 00:03:12.345 --> 00:03:13.455 But luckily I survived. 00:03:13.455 --> 00:03:18.955 So, the, the dressage training came through Pony Club. 00:03:19.405 --> 00:03:23.635 You know, we had to do dressage in order to do the fun stuff of jumping and, but 00:03:23.635 --> 00:03:29.734 my the, the first horse I had took off with me once during a a junior hunt, and 00:03:29.734 --> 00:03:37.204 we passed all the hunt's people and the red coats, and we galloped right through 00:03:37.445 --> 00:03:41.225 the hounds, which is really not okay. 00:03:41.644 --> 00:03:42.094 Yes. 00:03:42.094 --> 00:03:44.015 Rupert Isaacson: It's like taking your clothes off in St. 00:03:44.015 --> 00:03:44.584 Peter's. 00:03:44.704 --> 00:03:44.885 Karen Rohlf: Yeah. 00:03:44.885 --> 00:03:45.875 Oh my God. 00:03:45.875 --> 00:03:46.144 Yeah. 00:03:46.144 --> 00:03:50.045 So the Huntsman galloped after me, grabbed my horse, led me up to my mom and said, 00:03:50.045 --> 00:03:53.135 take this kid for dressage lessons so she can learn how to control her horse. 00:03:54.515 --> 00:03:56.405 Rupert Isaacson: Well that was quite enlightened when I was 00:03:56.405 --> 00:03:57.845 growing up hunting in England. 00:03:57.845 --> 00:04:01.234 They probably would've just taken us to before a firing squad for that. 00:04:01.325 --> 00:04:03.605 So yeah, things have improved a bit. 00:04:05.285 --> 00:04:09.245 Karen Rohlf: Yeah, so, so my mom, I was like, okay, my mom did what she was told. 00:04:09.245 --> 00:04:13.834 And when I outgrew that horse and then got another horse I ended up going, I 00:04:13.834 --> 00:04:17.934 was taking lessons at the barn where of Anne Grins who was on Long Island and 00:04:17.934 --> 00:04:21.444 she's now, you know, international level judge and well known in the dressage 00:04:21.444 --> 00:04:26.635 world, really a pioneer dressage in the USA and she took me under her wing 00:04:27.084 --> 00:04:31.464 and that second horse off the track thoroughbred with an old bow tendon doing, 00:04:31.914 --> 00:04:34.284 you know, local, local hunter classes. 00:04:34.384 --> 00:04:37.474 Ended up learning everything and we represented the Young 00:04:37.474 --> 00:04:39.124 Riders team four years. 00:04:39.124 --> 00:04:42.064 And, you know, through him I became a professional. 00:04:42.829 --> 00:04:46.039 I didn't mean to become a professional, I was gonna do something else. 00:04:46.039 --> 00:04:48.499 But you know, when you're a horse crazy girl and people pay you to 00:04:48.499 --> 00:04:53.839 ride their horses, you know, why get a real job when you can do that? 00:04:54.499 --> 00:04:55.299 And yeah. 00:04:55.299 --> 00:04:59.109 And so that's how I ended up being a dressage professional. 00:04:59.559 --> 00:05:00.520 Rupert Isaacson: But why dressage? 00:05:00.549 --> 00:05:03.039 I mean, it sounded like if your first love was to go off into the 00:05:03.039 --> 00:05:06.159 bush and do silly things with your horse and go hunting and jump and 00:05:06.159 --> 00:05:07.689 do all the fun stuff as you put it. 00:05:08.919 --> 00:05:09.580 Okay. 00:05:09.609 --> 00:05:12.580 So the dressage had to be a way to get control of your horse. 00:05:12.789 --> 00:05:16.869 Why did it, why'd you get bitten by the bug? 00:05:17.770 --> 00:05:20.999 Karen Rohlf: Yeah, it was at, at one point my horse was pre St. 00:05:20.999 --> 00:05:26.940 George and getting ready to event preliminary level and I realized I'm 00:05:26.940 --> 00:05:32.820 kind of a chicken and we'd go, you know, galloping up to these jumps. 00:05:32.820 --> 00:05:37.590 And in my mind I was telling my horse, if you wanna jump this, I'll stay on. 00:05:38.205 --> 00:05:40.244 But if you don't, that's okay with me. 00:05:40.275 --> 00:05:42.195 And I thought, I'm gonna die. 00:05:42.315 --> 00:05:45.885 'cause like you, that's not a way to, to be an event writer. 00:05:46.124 --> 00:05:46.395 Rupert Isaacson: No. 00:05:46.755 --> 00:05:49.455 Karen Rohlf: So, and I really, so I was a little bit of a chicken 00:05:49.815 --> 00:05:54.984 and I really was getting into the the complexity of the dressage. 00:05:54.984 --> 00:05:58.704 I thought it was like a amazing, I mean, I remember riding in my diary like, horses 00:05:58.704 --> 00:06:02.544 can go sideways, you know, and drawing a little diagram on my first leg yield. 00:06:02.544 --> 00:06:03.804 I'm like, I had no idea. 00:06:04.434 --> 00:06:08.174 And what was interesting being at Noll Farm, like I actually, I had 00:06:08.174 --> 00:06:12.224 my horse in the bushes behind my house, and then I would trailer 00:06:12.224 --> 00:06:14.234 maybe once a week to Noll farm. 00:06:14.414 --> 00:06:17.954 And, but I would go in the afternoons after school when all the fancy 00:06:17.954 --> 00:06:19.214 horses were done being schooled. 00:06:19.214 --> 00:06:23.744 So I never, I never got, like, I was never comparing. 00:06:24.134 --> 00:06:25.754 I would just go do what I was told. 00:06:25.754 --> 00:06:29.054 We'd learn our stuff and I'd go home and practice and I didn't 00:06:29.054 --> 00:06:30.374 know that that shouldn't work. 00:06:30.374 --> 00:06:31.124 It shouldn't work. 00:06:31.124 --> 00:06:33.525 That someone, a kid who doesn't know dressage on a horse 00:06:33.525 --> 00:06:34.604 that doesn't, no dressage. 00:06:35.039 --> 00:06:36.840 Should be alone training in the bushes. 00:06:37.169 --> 00:06:39.030 But we just kept going. 00:06:39.030 --> 00:06:42.900 And I, because I didn't go there and compare myself to all the fancy horses 00:06:42.900 --> 00:06:48.299 that Anne had, 'cause I never saw them, we just kept going of the levels and 00:06:48.299 --> 00:06:51.639 uh, and yeah, then I was just hooked. 00:06:51.639 --> 00:06:53.289 I, I love the precision. 00:06:53.289 --> 00:07:00.039 I think it's amazing that you can teach a horse to do dressage movements because 00:07:00.039 --> 00:07:02.589 it's like teaching an alien to play piano. 00:07:02.589 --> 00:07:06.459 I mean, you know, jumps, horses get it, I gotta get over the jump. 00:07:06.459 --> 00:07:08.289 Cows, horses get that. 00:07:08.769 --> 00:07:11.469 So I thought it was really amazing that I could teach a horse to 00:07:11.469 --> 00:07:14.769 prance and skip and go sideways. 00:07:14.769 --> 00:07:16.839 And just because we asked them to. 00:07:17.650 --> 00:07:18.249 When it works. 00:07:18.249 --> 00:07:19.090 It's amazing. 00:07:19.599 --> 00:07:21.849 Rupert Isaacson: She was clearly a very good teacher, Anne, right? 00:07:22.210 --> 00:07:22.840 Karen Rohlf: Yes. 00:07:22.840 --> 00:07:29.270 She is a really good trainer, really good teacher, really supportive of youth in 00:07:29.270 --> 00:07:32.990 dressage and yeah, she taught me to ride. 00:07:32.990 --> 00:07:33.979 She taught me to train. 00:07:33.979 --> 00:07:37.460 She taught me to teach and she gave me lots of opportunities to like 00:07:37.490 --> 00:07:41.120 ride her horses when she went away or teach her students when she went away. 00:07:41.120 --> 00:07:46.159 And I was so scared, but like, she, she really supported me 00:07:46.250 --> 00:07:48.710 and, and she's, you know, nice. 00:07:48.740 --> 00:07:49.969 She's very petite. 00:07:50.150 --> 00:07:53.180 She's fiery and strong, but very petite. 00:07:53.180 --> 00:07:53.719 How unusual 00:07:53.719 --> 00:07:53.870 Rupert Isaacson: in the 00:07:53.870 --> 00:07:54.110 Karen Rohlf: horse world. 00:07:54.110 --> 00:07:54.170 Yeah. 00:07:54.229 --> 00:07:55.010 Had to be clever. 00:07:55.070 --> 00:07:55.190 Yeah. 00:07:55.190 --> 00:07:56.030 She had to be clever. 00:07:56.030 --> 00:07:57.500 She's not a brute force rider. 00:07:58.010 --> 00:07:58.310 Yeah. 00:07:58.310 --> 00:08:00.770 You know, she, she had to be light, 00:08:02.810 --> 00:08:03.320 Rupert Isaacson: right? 00:08:03.320 --> 00:08:09.080 But as you know, I mean, so precision can very quickly 00:08:09.080 --> 00:08:14.000 turn into that tyrannical word. 00:08:14.765 --> 00:08:18.995 That pervades the dressage world and has done for generations. 00:08:18.995 --> 00:08:25.675 I was just reading yesterday max, you know, one of the August dead 00:08:25.675 --> 00:08:29.784 dudes, you know, of history, who was the teacher of Ziga, who was the 00:08:29.784 --> 00:08:33.775 teacher of Steinberg to eth on the right hand of God of German dressage. 00:08:34.315 --> 00:08:34.914 And 00:08:37.255 --> 00:08:42.204 you know, he talks endlessly about Correct, correct, correct, correct. 00:08:42.204 --> 00:08:43.940 Instead, a German accent must be correct. 00:08:44.119 --> 00:08:48.835 German accent and there's a tyranny to that word. 00:08:49.585 --> 00:08:52.525 And, and innate stress to that word. 00:08:52.530 --> 00:08:52.570 Mm-hmm. 00:08:53.155 --> 00:08:57.175 And the difficulty as you know and I know, is that we have 00:08:57.175 --> 00:08:58.915 inherited the dressage tradition. 00:08:58.915 --> 00:09:03.865 In fact, the entire tournament riding tradition of any discipline. 00:09:04.480 --> 00:09:11.590 Outside of Western from the military and with military comes being an asshole 00:09:11.830 --> 00:09:16.300 because you've actually supposed to be an asshole because you're supposed 00:09:16.300 --> 00:09:21.520 to teach the humans and the horses how to cope with stress under fire. 00:09:21.520 --> 00:09:22.990 So they idea is you stress them. 00:09:23.140 --> 00:09:25.570 I was at military school, that's what they did to us. 00:09:26.740 --> 00:09:34.360 So what surprises me is that given how incredibly toxic the dressage world is, 00:09:34.360 --> 00:09:39.550 and I know this 'cause I'm in it because I'm a trainer why was it, do you think 00:09:39.550 --> 00:09:47.185 that in that moneyed suburb of New York, somehow you and Anne dodged that bullet? 00:09:48.474 --> 00:09:50.245 Why did that not end up? 00:09:50.245 --> 00:09:53.365 Because, you know, when you're an impressionable teenager, the, and 00:09:53.365 --> 00:09:56.185 then, you know, and then, okay, you didn't start with the shows, but 00:09:56.214 --> 00:09:57.895 pretty soon you were at the shows. 00:09:57.969 --> 00:09:58.390 Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm. 00:09:58.474 --> 00:10:00.925 Rupert Isaacson: And you were rubbing shoulders with that culture, 00:10:01.555 --> 00:10:05.035 and to some degree, that culture must have rubbed off on you a bit. 00:10:05.035 --> 00:10:05.905 Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm. 00:10:06.025 --> 00:10:07.824 Rupert Isaacson: I mean, one bit, you know, only human. 00:10:10.015 --> 00:10:14.755 How did you, how did you and she manage to navigate, to 00:10:14.755 --> 00:10:16.584 not be sort of subsumed by it? 00:10:17.545 --> 00:10:23.245 Karen Rohlf: Yeah, I mean, I think, I think she was much more in that culture, 00:10:23.245 --> 00:10:25.704 but on the nice end of the scale. 00:10:25.765 --> 00:10:26.005 Right. 00:10:26.005 --> 00:10:29.905 So there was enough things just in the way, I mean, there's a 00:10:29.905 --> 00:10:32.005 sliding scale of this, right? 00:10:32.005 --> 00:10:32.015 Yeah. 00:10:32.015 --> 00:10:35.214 So, but the still horses lived in stalls until they came out to work. 00:10:35.709 --> 00:10:38.379 And they shouldn't use too much energy when they're turned out 00:10:38.379 --> 00:10:40.359 'cause we need that for the dressage. 00:10:40.359 --> 00:10:43.689 So like, there's still that, but that's very traditional, you know? 00:10:43.689 --> 00:10:43.779 Mm-hmm. 00:10:44.019 --> 00:10:45.129 Well, it's military, that's the word. 00:10:45.399 --> 00:10:48.969 But, you know, the language that she used was all educational. 00:10:48.969 --> 00:10:52.569 It wasn't force and make, and that's stupid thing, but 00:10:52.569 --> 00:10:55.540 it was still sy systematic. 00:10:55.540 --> 00:11:03.339 I, I think my personality is so, I'm so, I don't know, born with 00:11:03.339 --> 00:11:04.930 this like fierce independence. 00:11:04.930 --> 00:11:07.449 Like I, I don't join stuff. 00:11:07.449 --> 00:11:15.160 So somehow I was enough in love with the horse that I, I didn't buy into anything 00:11:15.160 --> 00:11:18.609 that was forced, that I saw going on. 00:11:18.609 --> 00:11:21.699 So I think Anne was on the nicer side of the sort of 00:11:21.699 --> 00:11:23.560 normal dressage things for sure. 00:11:24.340 --> 00:11:30.310 But even some of the just lifestyle stuff within dressage, I, you know, I 00:11:30.310 --> 00:11:32.140 was part of it that I had horses there. 00:11:32.140 --> 00:11:35.200 I trained training horses, but I, I never liked it. 00:11:35.230 --> 00:11:38.860 Like, I still wanted my horses to be turned out and I wanted 00:11:38.860 --> 00:11:41.590 to go do fun things with them. 00:11:41.590 --> 00:11:47.920 And as far as the, like, the precision for it was really clear that there 00:11:47.920 --> 00:11:54.400 is riding and training and there's competing and those are separate and 00:11:54.910 --> 00:11:59.050 there's a certain additional skill that you need when you compete, which 00:11:59.050 --> 00:12:04.030 is the art of making things look like they're working even when they're not. 00:12:05.110 --> 00:12:05.470 Right. 00:12:05.470 --> 00:12:09.610 So, in the moment of the test, you have to kinda keep it together 00:12:10.240 --> 00:12:13.870 and put a little more leg on and hold them a little bit there and 00:12:13.870 --> 00:12:15.430 kind of, you know, use that skill. 00:12:15.430 --> 00:12:20.530 It's a skill and it's not a bad skill, but it needs to be used consciously. 00:12:21.130 --> 00:12:22.900 So the whole idea of. 00:12:23.710 --> 00:12:27.010 You know, classical versus competitive in, you know, and I 00:12:27.010 --> 00:12:30.340 don't even, who knows what classical means, so maybe I won't use that. 00:12:30.340 --> 00:12:34.210 But there's training, which is you ride today, so tomorrow's better. 00:12:34.900 --> 00:12:34.990 Rupert Isaacson: Mm. 00:12:34.990 --> 00:12:35.200 Karen Rohlf: Right? 00:12:35.200 --> 00:12:36.490 You ride today, so tomorrow's better. 00:12:36.670 --> 00:12:38.230 And in competition you ride. 00:12:38.230 --> 00:12:42.790 So right now looks as good as possible and is good as possible, but if 00:12:42.790 --> 00:12:44.380 it's not good, make it look good. 00:12:44.950 --> 00:12:49.210 And I think a lot of times people look at dressage and they think 00:12:49.510 --> 00:12:53.740 competitive dressage, and then they're learning the skill of make it look 00:12:53.740 --> 00:12:55.150 like it's happening, even if it's not. 00:12:55.270 --> 00:12:57.100 And then that's what's taught to train. 00:12:57.490 --> 00:12:57.790 But you, 00:12:57.790 --> 00:12:58.090 Rupert Isaacson: yeah, 00:12:58.270 --> 00:13:03.520 Karen Rohlf: if you use that for training, you're, you're missing the chance to take 00:13:03.520 --> 00:13:07.450 something apart, deconstruct, educate, so that then tomorrow it comes out 00:13:08.020 --> 00:13:09.730 Rupert Isaacson: and there's a key, there's, I, I think 00:13:09.730 --> 00:13:10.630 you hit it on the nail there. 00:13:10.730 --> 00:13:11.600 The, 00:13:14.390 --> 00:13:18.380 going into an arena, you know, arenas are where. 00:13:19.295 --> 00:13:20.795 One focuses attention, right? 00:13:20.795 --> 00:13:24.334 And things like gladiatorial combat happen, you know, with blood upon 00:13:24.334 --> 00:13:28.805 the sand or people being eaten by lions or doing a dressage test. 00:13:29.254 --> 00:13:33.244 So there is an innate pressure and stress simply to the 00:13:33.244 --> 00:13:34.775 environment of the arena itself. 00:13:34.805 --> 00:13:41.944 And the, the footing of the arena in sand was also partly to drain blood. 00:13:41.974 --> 00:13:45.244 Originally, not just it's, it's also, it's still there for the bull ring. 00:13:45.425 --> 00:13:49.374 You know, I live in southern Spain and you know, that's what an arena is. 00:13:49.374 --> 00:13:52.824 It's, it's, it's there to give grip and to drain blood. 00:13:53.034 --> 00:13:58.794 So it, if one understands that, one always knows that when one enters an arena, even 00:13:58.854 --> 00:14:07.104 in a training context, there's going to be an in an innate sort of a pressure, which 00:14:07.104 --> 00:14:10.464 comes simply from the spirit of the place. 00:14:10.614 --> 00:14:12.054 The Romans had a great. 00:14:12.729 --> 00:14:14.469 A great way of understanding this. 00:14:14.469 --> 00:14:19.579 I dunno, you're probably aware of this, that the Golish Celtic goddess, a French 00:14:19.579 --> 00:14:25.159 Celtic goddess Aona, who sometimes represented as a horse and sometimes 00:14:25.159 --> 00:14:30.079 represented as a female goddess with a horse and of fertility in Plenty as 00:14:30.079 --> 00:14:37.069 well, was one of the only goddesses ever to be adopted by the Roman Army. 00:14:37.609 --> 00:14:41.749 The Roman Army often adopted gods from other cultures because they'd 00:14:41.749 --> 00:14:44.359 adopt anything from other cultures that they thought was so, the 00:14:44.359 --> 00:14:48.109 culture of Myth Rat, for example, was a military cult, but a poona. 00:14:48.139 --> 00:14:48.979 She's about peace. 00:14:48.979 --> 00:14:50.239 She's not about war yet. 00:14:50.239 --> 00:14:55.099 The Roman cavalry adopted her and they, you see shrines to her in 00:14:55.129 --> 00:14:57.979 Roman barracks that have been dug up, you know, all over Europe. 00:14:59.599 --> 00:15:03.799 There's often a dedication that you see where, which was an inscription 00:15:03.799 --> 00:15:07.579 above the horse training area, which was a, a sort of a dedication to 00:15:07.609 --> 00:15:10.219 opponent herself and the spirit of. 00:15:10.639 --> 00:15:12.589 Spirits of the training ground. 00:15:13.399 --> 00:15:16.309 So there was an understanding that the training ground had 00:15:16.309 --> 00:15:17.869 its own spirits, had its own 00:15:17.899 --> 00:15:17.989 Karen Rohlf: mm-hmm. 00:15:20.029 --> 00:15:21.139 Rupert Isaacson: Ghost if you like. 00:15:21.709 --> 00:15:25.879 And I think we feel that today, but we maybe don't express it like that. 00:15:25.879 --> 00:15:32.359 And that force can feel benevolent or malevolent depending upon a 00:15:32.359 --> 00:15:33.859 whole range of external factors. 00:15:33.859 --> 00:15:34.069 Right. 00:15:34.069 --> 00:15:35.299 And internal factors. 00:15:35.719 --> 00:15:43.219 W when you were going into the arena to compete, as you say, you're this girl 00:15:43.219 --> 00:15:47.089 who actually likes to do turn your horse out and likes to do naturalistic things 00:15:47.089 --> 00:15:48.529 with your horse and you're accepting. 00:15:48.919 --> 00:15:51.679 Okay, now I'm going into the gladiator phase. 00:15:52.459 --> 00:16:01.519 Talk, talk to us about your competitive career and how you as that type 00:16:01.519 --> 00:16:05.749 of personality coat, are you in fact, deep down, very competitive 00:16:06.559 --> 00:16:07.759 and you just hide it quite well? 00:16:09.814 --> 00:16:10.534 Are you fiercely competitive? 00:16:10.534 --> 00:16:14.194 Karen Rohlf: It, there's, there's nothing like the feeling of having a good ride 00:16:14.194 --> 00:16:19.744 and being rewarded and acknowledged and getting a, a, a pretty thing and 00:16:19.744 --> 00:16:22.594 standing up there and everybody pointing at you going, look what you did. 00:16:23.104 --> 00:16:23.404 Right? 00:16:23.404 --> 00:16:32.044 So, so I mean, that feels good, but the, one of the reasons I stopped competing was 00:16:32.044 --> 00:16:38.584 because I would go do the class and then I'd, you know, pack up and go and I go, 00:16:38.584 --> 00:16:41.104 oh wait, I forgot to look at how I did. 00:16:41.584 --> 00:16:41.824 Right. 00:16:41.824 --> 00:16:46.174 So I realized that you could be riding one horse who tried his heart out 00:16:47.314 --> 00:16:52.654 and did everything that you asked and might never score better than another 00:16:52.654 --> 00:16:57.574 horse who clearly was stressed out and you were wrestling the whole time. 00:16:57.574 --> 00:16:58.744 But he was a good mover. 00:16:58.834 --> 00:17:00.274 So he is gonna get a better score. 00:17:01.024 --> 00:17:04.984 And I just found that the, the results. 00:17:06.560 --> 00:17:09.665 I mean, I could see within one horse you do one test and then over 00:17:09.665 --> 00:17:11.915 time see how that score improves. 00:17:11.915 --> 00:17:18.514 But I, I, I stopped being interested in how we did, and I 00:17:18.514 --> 00:17:20.435 thought, this is way too expensive. 00:17:20.674 --> 00:17:24.815 If I don't really care, like I'd, I like the professional opinion, but 00:17:24.815 --> 00:17:26.165 I could get that a different way. 00:17:26.165 --> 00:17:31.685 I don't have to go to show, but I liked the showing as a 00:17:31.685 --> 00:17:33.935 moment to rise to the occasion. 00:17:34.145 --> 00:17:38.645 It's like, can I plan on having a best day? 00:17:39.469 --> 00:17:42.199 In this place at this exact time with this horse. 00:17:42.199 --> 00:17:43.880 Like that's exciting to me. 00:17:44.300 --> 00:17:50.030 But and I, and I, as part of my education, the showing dressage 00:17:50.030 --> 00:17:52.159 levels was, was hu beautiful? 00:17:52.159 --> 00:17:56.030 Like we go, okay, this year's first level, okay, now we're gonna work on second and 00:17:56.030 --> 00:17:57.379 third level stuff and then we'll do this. 00:17:57.379 --> 00:18:02.030 And like, as a student learning to go through that progression on one 00:18:02.030 --> 00:18:08.360 horse, the first time doing dressage to take the one horse from zero all 00:18:08.360 --> 00:18:10.580 the way up the levels was pure gold. 00:18:10.580 --> 00:18:12.080 Priceless to my education. 00:18:12.379 --> 00:18:12.470 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:18:12.500 --> 00:18:16.189 Karen Rohlf: Because I know how a system can work and I know how it 00:18:16.189 --> 00:18:21.050 progresses and I know how doing this level then changes the stuff underneath 00:18:21.050 --> 00:18:23.720 and improves the basics and what do you need in order to do the next. 00:18:24.080 --> 00:18:28.010 So that's why I don't, I'm not at all anti-competition. 00:18:28.010 --> 00:18:31.639 It's, it's just a date on the calendar, on a particular piece of dirt. 00:18:31.970 --> 00:18:35.300 And can you rise to the occasion and train in a way that gets there? 00:18:36.125 --> 00:18:41.645 Then the, the tricky part is can you as a human with an ego 00:18:41.975 --> 00:18:42.064 Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm. 00:18:42.334 --> 00:18:47.314 Karen Rohlf: Do that and still have boundaries, and still have things that 00:18:47.314 --> 00:18:51.395 you won't do in order to get that, even if you spent a lot of money on it, 00:18:52.205 --> 00:18:54.965 can you still do right by the horse? 00:18:54.965 --> 00:19:01.774 And so that's the, that's the competition and the mental, emotional part of that 00:19:01.774 --> 00:19:04.625 as being a human invested in this. 00:19:05.254 --> 00:19:08.495 Can you still, you know, be right by your horse? 00:19:08.705 --> 00:19:10.595 And that's a whole other skill set. 00:19:11.235 --> 00:19:14.774 Rupert Isaacson: Indeed, I mean, I'm, I'm sure once you had taken that professional 00:19:14.774 --> 00:19:19.124 track, there would've been a certain amount of pressure to consistently win 00:19:19.304 --> 00:19:24.434 or at least place because, you know, you need cred In those days, particularly 00:19:25.034 --> 00:19:29.594 the most of the credibility was based upon your, your competition record. 00:19:30.225 --> 00:19:31.689 How did you resist. 00:19:32.679 --> 00:19:36.549 And also with that first horse, how far did you, did you go with that horse and at 00:19:36.549 --> 00:19:40.479 what point did you encounter limitations beyond which perhaps he could not go? 00:19:40.929 --> 00:19:44.679 Karen Rohlf: Yeah, he, he learned everything except massage, interestingly. 00:19:44.679 --> 00:19:44.979 Interesting. 00:19:45.819 --> 00:19:46.179 Yeah. 00:19:46.179 --> 00:19:48.969 And so, and I remember we, you know, we tried, and then there's one, I 00:19:48.969 --> 00:19:53.439 remember one day when my trainer was riding him, which he rarely did. 00:19:54.219 --> 00:19:57.259 And and he had a great pee off and a really good cantor, and 00:19:57.259 --> 00:19:58.729 he, like, he should massage. 00:19:59.069 --> 00:20:05.729 But at one point it was getting a little, you know, hard and then he broke out 00:20:05.729 --> 00:20:12.569 into this perfect pace and Ann and I just stopped and we said he, it's like he, he 00:20:12.569 --> 00:20:14.699 just, he's trying, like, he tried so hard. 00:20:14.699 --> 00:20:18.389 He, he broke the diagonal rhythm of his gait to try to please us. 00:20:18.389 --> 00:20:21.839 And we both just looked at it and go, he's not gonna do massage. 00:20:21.899 --> 00:20:24.059 And that, that was fine. 00:20:24.089 --> 00:20:26.819 He, he had done, he had done enough. 00:20:27.209 --> 00:20:30.029 And so that, like, I remember that moment going. 00:20:30.359 --> 00:20:33.989 He's really trying to figure out what the heck we want. 00:20:34.439 --> 00:20:38.069 And we just decided that, you know, it wasn't fair to 00:20:38.459 --> 00:20:39.779 push him to do that anymore. 00:20:39.869 --> 00:20:39.959 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:20:40.379 --> 00:20:40.709 Karen Rohlf: Yeah. 00:20:40.769 --> 00:20:44.969 So, and I just, I think I like on the professional track, yeah. 00:20:44.969 --> 00:20:47.669 There's that moment where you're like, okay, it's going, it's going. 00:20:47.669 --> 00:20:51.659 And yeah, here comes the part where someone, you know, puts a really 00:20:51.659 --> 00:20:53.609 expensive, fancy horse under you. 00:20:53.609 --> 00:20:57.359 And, and you know, so I was seeing that happening around and you know, oh, 00:20:57.359 --> 00:20:59.699 how come nobody and does it with me? 00:20:59.699 --> 00:21:06.329 And then like, but it's, there was one moment where, you know, I'm reviewing 00:21:06.329 --> 00:21:12.239 my goals and I realized, like, I could imagine, oh, it would be so cool to 00:21:12.239 --> 00:21:15.749 be on the podium at the Olympics, be, but then I realized, oh, I think 00:21:15.749 --> 00:21:19.409 that's the goal I think I'm supposed to have, because that's the narrow track. 00:21:19.889 --> 00:21:21.149 What else are you supposed to do? 00:21:21.154 --> 00:21:21.234 Mm-hmm. 00:21:21.329 --> 00:21:22.409 And I realized. 00:21:23.159 --> 00:21:29.339 I was not interested in any, in most of the parts involved in having that happen. 00:21:29.909 --> 00:21:30.209 Rupert Isaacson: Hmm. 00:21:30.389 --> 00:21:33.809 Karen Rohlf: I didn't wanna pour my heart into horses that other people owned. 00:21:33.899 --> 00:21:37.319 I was doing a lot of that and starting to get very heartbroken. 00:21:37.949 --> 00:21:42.719 I'm like, I can't imagine being, I don't wanna be in that situation where I'm 00:21:42.719 --> 00:21:45.989 just a, a rider on a sponsor's horse. 00:21:46.109 --> 00:21:48.929 I really didn't wanna take, you know, I didn't have enough 00:21:48.929 --> 00:21:50.159 money to buy my own horse. 00:21:50.609 --> 00:21:53.969 I really didn't like the idea of flying horses all over the world. 00:21:54.659 --> 00:21:58.379 I didn't like how these competition horses were kept. 00:21:59.369 --> 00:22:02.009 I like being home and I just like, wait. 00:22:02.039 --> 00:22:03.959 I don't think I actually have that goal. 00:22:03.959 --> 00:22:08.039 I think it's just sort of a nice idea, but it, it wasn't actually a goal that 00:22:08.039 --> 00:22:17.009 I really wanted to do, so I let go of it and I realized I really enjoy just 00:22:17.099 --> 00:22:19.469 working with any horse to help them. 00:22:20.084 --> 00:22:23.414 Move better, or the horse and the rider understand each other 00:22:23.414 --> 00:22:26.624 better and have fun and be healthy. 00:22:26.624 --> 00:22:32.444 And you know, I just, I was in that scene and I realized it wasn't, 00:22:33.014 --> 00:22:35.024 it didn't fit my personality. 00:22:35.234 --> 00:22:36.224 Rupert Isaacson: How long were you in that scene? 00:22:38.244 --> 00:22:44.034 Karen Rohlf: Gosh, from, you know, like from when I was like 16, started 00:22:44.034 --> 00:22:51.534 really competing and then I came to Florida in 2003 and that's when I 00:22:51.534 --> 00:22:55.314 left, you know, Ann's I left the, the training thing and I came to 00:22:55.314 --> 00:22:58.824 Florida and that's when I had started dabbling in the natural horsemanship. 00:22:58.824 --> 00:23:02.094 And I just came to Florida for the winter season for two months. 00:23:02.484 --> 00:23:05.484 And after six weeks I called home and I said, I'm not coming back. 00:23:05.724 --> 00:23:08.184 I like doing my own thing with my own horses. 00:23:08.184 --> 00:23:11.094 I am free and I can do all my silly stuff. 00:23:11.724 --> 00:23:12.384 And yeah. 00:23:13.089 --> 00:23:13.179 Well, 00:23:13.179 --> 00:23:13.749 Rupert Isaacson: that's interesting though. 00:23:13.749 --> 00:23:16.419 You said most people go to Florida out of the dressage world to 00:23:16.419 --> 00:23:17.949 do more sport dressage, right? 00:23:17.949 --> 00:23:18.164 I mean that's 00:23:18.164 --> 00:23:19.749 Karen Rohlf: Well, that's what I, that's what I did. 00:23:19.749 --> 00:23:23.209 It just I had already started to fiddle around with natural horsemanship with 00:23:23.209 --> 00:23:25.309 some horses of, with a horse of mine. 00:23:25.939 --> 00:23:26.709 And yeah. 00:23:26.709 --> 00:23:30.519 Then I had it where I went in Florida, just happened to be like seven miles from 00:23:30.519 --> 00:23:35.289 Pat and Linda Pelli, who was, which was the program I was learning at the time. 00:23:35.349 --> 00:23:39.329 And and I just, all of a sudden I was out of this training facility 00:23:39.329 --> 00:23:43.799 with all the eyes on me and I was all by myself, you know, in this barn. 00:23:43.979 --> 00:23:47.429 I mean, there were other people around, but I didn't know them and I could kind 00:23:47.429 --> 00:23:51.119 of do whatever I want and I was like, yay, I can just be who I wanna be. 00:23:51.689 --> 00:23:55.999 And and I just like that this is because I was really ready to quit horses. 00:23:55.999 --> 00:23:58.039 Rupert, like, I was burned out. 00:23:58.039 --> 00:24:00.859 I was working, I was tired of the attitude I was. 00:24:01.069 --> 00:24:06.199 I'm tired of riding everybody else's horses and just, I was, I 00:24:06.199 --> 00:24:08.689 thought I was gonna quit horses, so I did the winters, you know, 00:24:08.689 --> 00:24:11.239 came down to just be in the warmth. 00:24:11.239 --> 00:24:13.579 And a student had moved down here, so I was like, just work 00:24:13.579 --> 00:24:15.739 with her and some other people. 00:24:15.739 --> 00:24:18.529 And then I was like, oh, it's not horses that I wanted to quit. 00:24:18.529 --> 00:24:23.689 It was, it was the professional dressage trainer lifestyle and 00:24:23.689 --> 00:24:25.339 circumstance that I wanted to quit. 00:24:26.119 --> 00:24:29.719 And so now I was in Florida riding bareback and bridal 00:24:29.719 --> 00:24:31.489 list as much as I wanted to. 00:24:31.489 --> 00:24:33.889 And I was a little kid in love with horses, and I'm like, 00:24:34.069 --> 00:24:36.169 just more of this, please. 00:24:37.009 --> 00:24:37.969 Rupert Isaacson: How did you afford it though? 00:24:37.969 --> 00:24:40.669 Because, you know, if you're not coming from a money background and 00:24:40.674 --> 00:24:40.874 Karen Rohlf: mm-hmm. 00:24:40.954 --> 00:24:43.829 Rupert Isaacson: You're now making your living as you say, riding 00:24:43.829 --> 00:24:45.329 other people's horses up the levels. 00:24:45.539 --> 00:24:45.749 Karen Rohlf: Yeah. 00:24:45.809 --> 00:24:47.459 Rupert Isaacson: And then you make a sudden break. 00:24:47.609 --> 00:24:51.449 You're in Florida, those parts of Florida where say the Perellis live, 00:24:51.479 --> 00:24:52.829 that's not a cheap area of Florida. 00:24:52.829 --> 00:24:54.299 That's not a cheap area. 00:24:54.704 --> 00:24:57.764 So how did you, how did you manage to make that transition? 00:24:58.244 --> 00:24:59.624 Karen Rohlf: Yeah, no, it's a good question. 00:24:59.624 --> 00:25:03.044 But I mean, I was working my butt off in New York and giving 00:25:03.044 --> 00:25:05.054 a lot of it to the facility. 00:25:05.414 --> 00:25:05.534 Rupert Isaacson: Mm. 00:25:05.594 --> 00:25:08.504 Karen Rohlf: So, you know, I brought I had three horses in 00:25:08.504 --> 00:25:11.234 training here, plus my own horse. 00:25:12.104 --> 00:25:17.054 And it's amazing how when you get to keep all that money and rent the stall, I was 00:25:17.054 --> 00:25:20.804 doing all the work myself, but, you know, I was in my mid thirties, I could do it. 00:25:20.984 --> 00:25:21.044 Yeah. 00:25:21.494 --> 00:25:23.794 And you know, and I was just like doing the math. 00:25:23.794 --> 00:25:26.854 I'm like, this is actually better. 00:25:27.604 --> 00:25:27.664 Yeah. 00:25:28.264 --> 00:25:30.484 I'm making more money riding fewer horses. 00:25:30.484 --> 00:25:33.034 And you know, it's just different kind of work. 00:25:33.214 --> 00:25:34.289 But it was time and then you, 00:25:34.509 --> 00:25:34.729 Rupert Isaacson: it 00:25:34.729 --> 00:25:35.454 Karen Rohlf: was time to change. 00:25:35.634 --> 00:25:38.634 Rupert Isaacson: So you started building up at that point, a 00:25:38.634 --> 00:25:40.704 clientele and a, and a practice. 00:25:40.704 --> 00:25:40.714 Mm-hmm. 00:25:41.394 --> 00:25:47.694 How long did it take you to bring that new practice into coherence, into the dressage 00:25:47.694 --> 00:25:50.454 naturally thing that we know today and w. 00:25:50.889 --> 00:25:56.979 Then what is dressage naturally and and how does it differ from what 00:25:56.979 --> 00:25:58.969 other people generally would think of? 00:25:59.724 --> 00:26:03.024 Karen Rohlf: Yeah, well, I came, I came to, I'd started fiddling 00:26:03.024 --> 00:26:06.714 around with, you know, partnership based, natural horsemanship, be 00:26:06.714 --> 00:26:09.554 kind of stuff in the late nineties. 00:26:09.554 --> 00:26:14.834 And so then 2003 I came here and then I ended up going and taking 00:26:14.834 --> 00:26:18.909 a clinic with Linda, and then they were just really generous then 00:26:18.909 --> 00:26:19.069 Rupert Isaacson: lieutenant. 00:26:19.644 --> 00:26:20.134 That would be 00:26:20.139 --> 00:26:20.819 Karen Rohlf: Linda, sorry? 00:26:20.819 --> 00:26:21.749 Linda Pelli. 00:26:21.899 --> 00:26:23.069 Rupert Isaacson: Oh, Linda Pelli. 00:26:23.069 --> 00:26:23.079 Karen Rohlf: Okay. 00:26:23.079 --> 00:26:23.189 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:26:23.189 --> 00:26:23.199 Yeah. 00:26:23.519 --> 00:26:27.539 Karen Rohlf: And, and you know, that point mixed up, like no sport people or 00:26:27.539 --> 00:26:31.139 dressage people for sure were anywhere interested in anything they're doing. 00:26:31.139 --> 00:26:35.189 But I had seen some results with my horses, so I was curious 00:26:35.189 --> 00:26:36.389 to learn a little bit more. 00:26:37.079 --> 00:26:39.779 And they were really excited that a dressage person was interested. 00:26:39.779 --> 00:26:43.109 So they were very generous and spent the, you know, a lot 00:26:43.109 --> 00:26:44.159 of time with them in Florida. 00:26:44.159 --> 00:26:46.289 And then they invited me to go to Colorado with them. 00:26:46.289 --> 00:26:50.999 So I like, took, took some horses and went to Colorado with them. 00:26:50.999 --> 00:26:54.839 And so for a couple years I kind of just did that, lived outta my horse 00:26:54.839 --> 00:27:02.709 trailer and schlep back and forth from Florida to Colorado and was very happy. 00:27:03.579 --> 00:27:08.229 And then, and then I ended up buying some property here in Florida. 00:27:08.889 --> 00:27:11.409 And and then I was like, okay, I'm done. 00:27:11.469 --> 00:27:13.179 I'm not hanging around with the pres anymore. 00:27:13.179 --> 00:27:17.769 Like, I need to, you know, work as a trainer and. 00:27:17.829 --> 00:27:21.969 I had to figure out like how, like I, I have all this like 00:27:22.149 --> 00:27:23.859 foundational partnership stuff. 00:27:23.859 --> 00:27:25.119 I have my dressage training. 00:27:25.509 --> 00:27:28.419 I'm like, how am I gonna figure out, like when do you do what? 00:27:28.749 --> 00:27:31.929 So I ended up writing the book Dressage Naturally. 00:27:31.959 --> 00:27:36.189 And that was started out as a process for myself of like, how do I decis, 00:27:36.219 --> 00:27:39.969 how do I know when to do what, when, when do these skills come in? 00:27:39.969 --> 00:27:41.049 When do these skills come in? 00:27:41.049 --> 00:27:42.189 How do they dovetail? 00:27:42.519 --> 00:27:43.869 How do they reconcile? 00:27:43.869 --> 00:27:47.169 'cause some of them is so opposite, like most natural horsemanship 00:27:47.169 --> 00:27:50.829 then was like so Western and the horses weren't moving anywhere the 00:27:50.829 --> 00:27:52.569 way I wanted my horses to move. 00:27:53.439 --> 00:28:00.529 So, yeah, in 2005, six, I wrote the book and made a video and it came out in 2007. 00:28:01.159 --> 00:28:04.039 And so it was during those years that I really sat myself 00:28:04.039 --> 00:28:05.689 down and go, how does this. 00:28:06.199 --> 00:28:07.159 How does this fit together? 00:28:07.159 --> 00:28:09.739 And I'm, I'm pretty happy with how it turned out. 00:28:09.739 --> 00:28:13.789 And so, so dressage naturally really is, for me, hopefully 00:28:13.789 --> 00:28:15.169 the best of both worlds, right? 00:28:15.169 --> 00:28:19.099 The mental emotional parts that I learned from more partnership, e training, 00:28:19.099 --> 00:28:21.019 and the physical from the dressage. 00:28:21.619 --> 00:28:27.769 But it's, I think how it's different than most dressage training is, it zooms out. 00:28:28.699 --> 00:28:35.149 It's like dressage is just one little piece of my time with my horses. 00:28:35.389 --> 00:28:40.099 Like if any particular horse, okay, so five days a week I spend 40 half hour to 00:28:40.099 --> 00:28:42.649 45 minutes doing dressage, quote unquote. 00:28:43.489 --> 00:28:48.469 That's a small piece, but it really takes a holistic view. 00:28:48.919 --> 00:28:53.299 And so my goal for it is that it helps, you know, horses and rider enjoy the 00:28:53.299 --> 00:28:59.509 process of learning to be in harmony, but you have to have a holistic view of this. 00:28:59.509 --> 00:29:02.839 And so what I, I have a. 00:29:03.304 --> 00:29:05.044 Training scale that I use. 00:29:05.134 --> 00:29:10.264 But underneath that is like the, the principles and the priorities. 00:29:10.714 --> 00:29:14.794 So much of the humans get like laser focused on techniques. 00:29:14.959 --> 00:29:15.179 Rupert Isaacson: Mm. 00:29:15.454 --> 00:29:17.374 Karen Rohlf: And there's so many different techniques and yeah, they 00:29:17.494 --> 00:29:22.834 can all work or not depending, but where things fall apart I think is when 00:29:22.834 --> 00:29:26.074 everything gets really narrow focus and no one's zooming out and looking 00:29:26.074 --> 00:29:35.284 at the horse's life and, and the, the holistic view of where this silly folly 00:29:35.284 --> 00:29:37.954 of training my horse to prance falls in. 00:29:39.664 --> 00:29:39.934 Right? 00:29:40.384 --> 00:29:44.374 So, you know, so there's like some, some basic principles. 00:29:44.374 --> 00:29:48.454 So number one, five ba five basic principles. 00:29:48.454 --> 00:29:50.374 If I had to pick the, the top five. 00:29:50.374 --> 00:29:53.464 So one dressage should be for the horse. 00:29:53.914 --> 00:29:56.554 The basics should be for the horse and feel good to the horse. 00:29:57.139 --> 00:29:58.429 It's about healthy movement. 00:29:59.059 --> 00:30:03.589 Principle two, everything comes from and returns to relaxation. 00:30:05.089 --> 00:30:10.009 Three, mental, emotional, and physical are all equal doorways to the goal. 00:30:10.729 --> 00:30:12.289 And four, precision. 00:30:12.289 --> 00:30:13.459 You talked about precision. 00:30:13.849 --> 00:30:18.619 I think precision arrives outta the possibilities that play creates. 00:30:19.639 --> 00:30:24.259 And then the last, well, principle five is dressage can only be as good 00:30:24.259 --> 00:30:28.399 as the partnership, the communication, the biomechanics and writing skills 00:30:28.399 --> 00:30:31.219 combined and all of those matter. 00:30:31.369 --> 00:30:37.249 So, so no matter what we do, like those principles need to be upheld. 00:30:37.249 --> 00:30:43.459 And then, and then layered on that as these three priorities, one, 00:30:43.549 --> 00:30:47.299 our respon, our responsibility to the horse, number one priority. 00:30:47.299 --> 00:30:53.089 They did not ask for any of this and their entire life experiences in our 00:30:53.089 --> 00:30:55.729 hands, and we owe it to them to give them. 00:30:56.359 --> 00:31:00.779 You know, a, a decent life at least priority two is what I call 00:31:00.779 --> 00:31:02.099 the happy athlete training scale. 00:31:02.099 --> 00:31:05.849 So there's like prioritization within that and I can talk about that in a minute. 00:31:06.479 --> 00:31:11.939 And then priority three is our never ending quest for our own self-awareness 00:31:11.939 --> 00:31:13.319 and our own personal development. 00:31:13.319 --> 00:31:17.290 So, we can be the best humans that we can be for our horses. 00:31:17.290 --> 00:31:20.979 'cause horses make us happy, but they shouldn't have to. 00:31:23.409 --> 00:31:24.129 Rupert Isaacson: That's a good quote. 00:31:26.379 --> 00:31:27.520 Karen Rohlf: I know that's a lot in there. 00:31:27.520 --> 00:31:27.969 Boom. 00:31:28.600 --> 00:31:30.219 Rupert Isaacson: Let's talk about your training scale. 00:31:30.219 --> 00:31:36.849 So some listeners and viewers will know what the training scale is, and 00:31:36.879 --> 00:31:37.059 Karen Rohlf: yeah, 00:31:37.419 --> 00:31:40.389 Rupert Isaacson: people talk about the training scale, but of course the training 00:31:40.389 --> 00:31:46.689 scale is simply a set of principles coming largely outta the German school, which 00:31:46.689 --> 00:31:51.579 is only one of the various schools of dressage, but it happens to be the one. 00:31:52.329 --> 00:31:58.419 That prevails for historical reasons in what we think of as competition, dressage. 00:31:58.419 --> 00:32:03.969 And there's an interesting accident of history that created that, which probably 00:32:03.969 --> 00:32:05.859 is worth telling that story in a moment. 00:32:05.889 --> 00:32:12.459 But, so what is it, if I remember correctly, it's rhythm, relaxation 00:32:14.509 --> 00:32:15.884 contact or connection. 00:32:16.394 --> 00:32:16.754 Karen Rohlf: Yeah. 00:32:17.234 --> 00:32:18.374 Rupert Isaacson: Impulsion. 00:32:19.544 --> 00:32:21.644 Straightness and collection. 00:32:21.644 --> 00:32:22.364 Isn't that right? 00:32:22.424 --> 00:32:22.664 Yeah. 00:32:22.664 --> 00:32:22.964 More or less, 00:32:22.964 --> 00:32:23.204 Karen Rohlf: yeah. 00:32:23.264 --> 00:32:24.014 Something like that. 00:32:24.014 --> 00:32:24.224 Yep. 00:32:24.224 --> 00:32:24.524 And there's 00:32:24.524 --> 00:32:24.674 Rupert Isaacson: some 00:32:24.674 --> 00:32:25.694 Karen Rohlf: little variations. 00:32:26.414 --> 00:32:27.674 Rupert Isaacson: There's some variations on this. 00:32:27.674 --> 00:32:30.284 Some people call it a scale and some people call it a pyramid. 00:32:30.704 --> 00:32:30.854 Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm. 00:32:31.184 --> 00:32:33.134 Rupert Isaacson: And one of the things I've always wondered at 00:32:33.164 --> 00:32:35.774 with that is, well, two things. 00:32:35.834 --> 00:32:40.724 There always seem to me one crucial word missing from it, and one 00:32:40.754 --> 00:32:43.184 absolutely ignored part of it. 00:32:44.324 --> 00:32:47.564 And what you said just now, you actually. 00:32:48.194 --> 00:32:52.364 Spoke about the missing bit, and you spoke about the ignored bit. 00:32:52.724 --> 00:32:55.244 So the missing bit to me was joy. 00:32:56.414 --> 00:33:01.544 When you see a horse in nature, pull all the fancy moves, when do you see that? 00:33:01.874 --> 00:33:06.884 You see that when a horse is playing, when a horse is flirting, courtship, rituals, 00:33:07.304 --> 00:33:11.654 and when a horse is fighting, they lower their center of gravity just like we do. 00:33:11.804 --> 00:33:11.894 Mm-hmm. 00:33:12.074 --> 00:33:15.824 We dance, we fight, we play, we lower our center of gravity, and we move in 00:33:15.824 --> 00:33:19.574 three dimensions as opposed to when we're just walking to the toilet, 00:33:19.574 --> 00:33:22.994 when we walk in two dimensions or walking over the hill or whatever. 00:33:23.684 --> 00:33:28.724 And that seemed, that's the dressing of the horses to be able to move in those 00:33:28.724 --> 00:33:31.034 three dimensions for whatever reason. 00:33:31.694 --> 00:33:43.814 But if horses are doing this in behaviors of passion and ecstatic emotional, 00:33:44.714 --> 00:33:55.004 states, then surely that ought to be the primary thing through the training 00:33:55.004 --> 00:33:59.654 scale because otherwise the horse could only do it in a sort of mechanical echo. 00:33:59.744 --> 00:34:00.314 Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm. 00:34:00.554 --> 00:34:04.004 Rupert Isaacson: But they wouldn't be able to actually do it because 00:34:04.004 --> 00:34:04.814 they wouldn't be feeling it. 00:34:04.814 --> 00:34:05.564 So that would be the first thing. 00:34:05.744 --> 00:34:08.504 And you did just now mention the enjoyment. 00:34:08.654 --> 00:34:09.704 So my ears pricked up. 00:34:09.854 --> 00:34:13.664 And then the other one is of course, the second phase of that training 00:34:13.664 --> 00:34:15.704 scale that you always see relaxation. 00:34:15.824 --> 00:34:20.024 It's the one everybody seems to ignore when one goes into your 00:34:20.024 --> 00:34:24.974 average sport barn, you see everything except relaxation. 00:34:25.484 --> 00:34:25.604 Mm-hmm. 00:34:25.844 --> 00:34:28.199 And no one's relaxed with two legs or four. 00:34:28.664 --> 00:34:34.724 The environment is set up so that you can't be because whether it's a horse 00:34:34.784 --> 00:34:39.734 boiling over in a stall or whether it's a human terrified and anxious, or. 00:34:40.439 --> 00:34:47.879 Fierce and ambitious, or the whole environment is artificial or whatever. 00:34:49.029 --> 00:34:51.219 Just the fluorescent lights you're doing it under or whatever, you 00:34:51.219 --> 00:34:55.689 know, it, it, the entire thing is designed to kill relaxation. 00:34:56.019 --> 00:34:56.259 Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm. 00:34:56.859 --> 00:34:56.949 Rupert Isaacson: And 00:34:56.949 --> 00:34:58.989 Karen Rohlf: also, and that's why that, sorry 00:35:00.039 --> 00:35:00.309 Rupert Isaacson: go ahead. 00:35:00.309 --> 00:35:03.009 Karen Rohlf: That idea of everything comes from and returns to relaxation. 00:35:03.009 --> 00:35:03.069 Yeah. 00:35:03.069 --> 00:35:05.680 That doesn't mean that in between you're supposed to stress your horse out. 00:35:05.680 --> 00:35:07.749 It just means a well-regulated nervousness. 00:35:07.779 --> 00:35:08.470 Rupert Isaacson: Oh, a hundred percent. 00:35:08.470 --> 00:35:08.589 I mean, 00:35:08.680 --> 00:35:11.680 Karen Rohlf: and it's like these bell curves of like, you're, you 00:35:11.680 --> 00:35:15.459 have start with a calm, cool horse that loves his life, and then you 00:35:15.459 --> 00:35:17.829 do hard stuff and then it returns. 00:35:17.829 --> 00:35:20.769 And it's not just that, like training just gets harder and harder and harder and 00:35:20.859 --> 00:35:21.639 Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely. 00:35:21.849 --> 00:35:23.709 Or you can start with a five breathing dragon. 00:35:23.709 --> 00:35:26.829 I mean, you, you come in on a stallion who's feeling very stallion today. 00:35:26.829 --> 00:35:26.919 Mm-hmm. 00:35:27.339 --> 00:35:29.019 But he's still in his authentic self. 00:35:29.049 --> 00:35:32.169 He's, he's like, mm-hmm this is where I am right now. 00:35:32.379 --> 00:35:35.229 And one has to be relaxed enough to say, okay, that's cool. 00:35:35.229 --> 00:35:36.579 Let's be there together. 00:35:36.579 --> 00:35:37.299 Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm. 00:35:37.334 --> 00:35:37.754 Rupert Isaacson: And to. 00:35:38.564 --> 00:35:42.194 It always seems to me that the mark of a really good horse human 00:35:42.194 --> 00:35:46.994 partnership is that you can fizz the energy up enormously, but then when 00:35:46.994 --> 00:35:49.544 you drop the rain, it's over and you're both like, ah, yeah, okay. 00:35:49.544 --> 00:35:49.964 That was cut. 00:35:50.024 --> 00:35:50.924 That was cool. 00:35:50.924 --> 00:35:51.554 That was fun. 00:35:51.554 --> 00:35:52.694 Now let's go relax. 00:35:53.184 --> 00:35:56.904 And there was an innate relaxation through the whole thing even. 00:35:56.904 --> 00:35:57.354 Exactly. 00:35:57.354 --> 00:36:01.074 Everyone was at the apex of a physical thing together. 00:36:01.089 --> 00:36:01.824 Right, right, 00:36:01.824 --> 00:36:02.064 Karen Rohlf: right. 00:36:02.064 --> 00:36:04.914 And yeah, you take that, that horse, that's a little fizzy when he comes out. 00:36:04.914 --> 00:36:07.794 It doesn't mean you just sit there and stare at him until he is relaxed. 00:36:07.794 --> 00:36:11.004 It just means that that priority is like at the end of this thing, 00:36:11.484 --> 00:36:15.024 you know, the goal is that he's like more relaxed than Yeah. 00:36:15.054 --> 00:36:18.864 When we, you know, you're just trying to, to feel like that's the, the 00:36:18.864 --> 00:36:20.529 goal we've got endorphin, cortisol. 00:36:20.679 --> 00:36:20.969 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:36:21.039 --> 00:36:21.329 Karen Rohlf: Yeah. 00:36:21.444 --> 00:36:24.414 And horses can be up like relax, doesn't mean. 00:36:24.849 --> 00:36:25.089 Dead. 00:36:25.179 --> 00:36:25.419 Exactly. 00:36:26.604 --> 00:36:27.194 Rupert Isaacson: So, no, exactly. 00:36:27.309 --> 00:36:28.029 Exactly. 00:36:28.389 --> 00:36:30.849 So it's, it's interesting to me that you've, you've, you've 00:36:30.969 --> 00:36:32.829 yourself pinpointed those two 00:36:33.009 --> 00:36:33.099 Karen Rohlf: mm-hmm. 00:36:33.549 --> 00:36:36.699 Rupert Isaacson: Missing things because I've often wondered why 00:36:36.699 --> 00:36:38.259 that isn't more spoken about. 00:36:38.619 --> 00:36:38.829 Karen Rohlf: Yeah. 00:36:38.889 --> 00:36:38.919 Rupert Isaacson: I 00:36:38.919 --> 00:36:43.059 Karen Rohlf: mean, you take a, you know, think of, you know, how you would be 00:36:43.059 --> 00:36:49.749 sitting if you were bored outta your mind or feeling or peed or scared, you know, 00:36:49.749 --> 00:36:51.249 just think of what posture that would be. 00:36:51.249 --> 00:36:55.119 And then if someone came along and put a strap on to make my head go there and 00:36:55.119 --> 00:36:59.109 then did something with my shoulders and make, put my body in the shape of 00:36:59.109 --> 00:37:03.249 someone who is engaged in athletic, you just described my, just get me excited. 00:37:03.249 --> 00:37:04.959 Like there's a million dollars over there. 00:37:04.959 --> 00:37:05.199 Ready. 00:37:05.199 --> 00:37:06.279 He get set, go do it. 00:37:06.279 --> 00:37:07.389 Rupert Isaacson: You just described my school days. 00:37:08.499 --> 00:37:09.579 Karen Rohlf: I described your what? 00:37:09.699 --> 00:37:10.359 Rupert Isaacson: My school days. 00:37:10.929 --> 00:37:12.729 Karen Rohlf: Oh, right. 00:37:13.179 --> 00:37:13.569 Yeah. 00:37:13.839 --> 00:37:19.509 So yeah, so this training scale that I have, the dressage scale 00:37:19.509 --> 00:37:21.429 can fit inside there somewhere. 00:37:22.059 --> 00:37:25.089 But for me, the base is happiness. 00:37:25.479 --> 00:37:25.599 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:37:26.259 --> 00:37:26.559 Karen Rohlf: Right? 00:37:26.559 --> 00:37:30.999 Happy, healthy, calm content, comfortable for the horse and the 00:37:30.999 --> 00:37:35.649 human meaning, like deal with your own stuff before you show up to your horse. 00:37:35.649 --> 00:37:35.949 Right? 00:37:35.949 --> 00:37:40.149 Because frustrations, anger, whatever garbage that we 00:37:40.149 --> 00:37:41.949 humans, you know, carry with us. 00:37:41.949 --> 00:37:47.019 So the first is happiness and, and what I'm, I like to think about when 00:37:47.019 --> 00:37:49.869 I'm not with my horse, how's his life, 00:37:50.529 --> 00:37:50.649 Rupert Isaacson: right? 00:37:50.649 --> 00:37:50.739 Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm. 00:37:51.249 --> 00:37:55.969 Is he just staying in a stall or is he be like, no, I'm not good, you know, so. 00:37:55.969 --> 00:37:55.979 Mm-hmm. 00:37:55.979 --> 00:37:58.629 And so just happiness and, you know, that's a weird word, 00:37:58.629 --> 00:38:00.489 but like, just not unhappy. 00:38:01.269 --> 00:38:02.499 Like feeling okay. 00:38:02.559 --> 00:38:03.819 Like, yeah, life is good. 00:38:03.819 --> 00:38:03.879 Yeah. 00:38:04.509 --> 00:38:07.509 And then, and then from there is harmony. 00:38:07.509 --> 00:38:08.979 So the next layer up is harmony. 00:38:09.369 --> 00:38:11.019 So that's the second priority. 00:38:11.379 --> 00:38:14.859 That's where like self carriage comes in, that you, you and your horse 00:38:14.859 --> 00:38:18.549 together can be in the space and there's trust, there's a attentiveness, 00:38:18.549 --> 00:38:22.899 there's attunement, you're, there's an emotional connection, right? 00:38:22.899 --> 00:38:28.059 So when, when you and your horse, you know, and two individuals that are happy 00:38:28.059 --> 00:38:30.219 are gonna be easier to harmonize together. 00:38:30.939 --> 00:38:35.469 And if two beings are in harmony with each other, then. 00:38:36.429 --> 00:38:36.729 Okay. 00:38:36.729 --> 00:38:37.779 Like, I'm good. 00:38:37.809 --> 00:38:38.349 You're good. 00:38:38.349 --> 00:38:39.189 We're good together. 00:38:39.249 --> 00:38:42.339 Now, the next priority we can think about is communication. 00:38:42.759 --> 00:38:43.119 All right? 00:38:43.269 --> 00:38:47.679 And because if you're in harmony already, but you know when you 00:38:47.679 --> 00:38:50.529 enter the space, your horse isn't running away or attacking you. 00:38:50.859 --> 00:38:52.449 Like, now we can talk, right? 00:38:52.449 --> 00:38:55.749 So now we can think about the quality of the communication, 00:38:55.749 --> 00:39:01.689 responsiveness, eagerness, understanding, willingness, mental connection. 00:39:02.139 --> 00:39:06.849 So many dressage problems can be traced to poor quality communication. 00:39:07.269 --> 00:39:13.539 The horse looks in the good shape, the rider is told good by their instructor, 00:39:13.719 --> 00:39:16.959 even though they feel like they have to ice their hands after their 00:39:16.959 --> 00:39:19.089 ride and their legs are cramping up. 00:39:19.749 --> 00:39:23.289 So to me, what it looks like means zero. 00:39:23.529 --> 00:39:26.679 If the quality of communication between the horse and rider isn't 00:39:28.299 --> 00:39:30.549 understood, isn't magical, isn't light. 00:39:31.429 --> 00:39:31.939 So. 00:39:32.704 --> 00:39:36.244 If you're two happy individuals, you get along fine together and 00:39:36.244 --> 00:39:37.654 now they understand each other. 00:39:38.314 --> 00:39:42.664 Now we can start thinking about how the horse is moving. 00:39:43.174 --> 00:39:45.244 We don't care how the horse moves. 00:39:45.934 --> 00:39:50.284 If the horse and rider are hating each other and the horse is trying to run out 00:39:50.284 --> 00:39:52.294 the arena, like it's just ridiculous. 00:39:52.294 --> 00:39:52.624 Right. 00:39:52.624 --> 00:39:53.254 Who cares? 00:39:53.254 --> 00:39:55.924 But that happens a lot in dressage. 00:39:55.929 --> 00:39:56.289 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:39:56.619 --> 00:39:56.969 Karen Rohlf: Right. 00:39:57.589 --> 00:39:58.409 So, mm-hmm. 00:39:58.494 --> 00:40:05.284 You know, and, and PS when I go through these steps is even someone coming 00:40:05.284 --> 00:40:07.114 with dress, very dressy problems. 00:40:07.114 --> 00:40:10.384 When I work on the quality of the communication and the harmony and the 00:40:10.384 --> 00:40:15.814 happiness, already the dressage already the horse is moving better, they're moving 00:40:15.814 --> 00:40:17.524 differently, they're moving more freely. 00:40:17.764 --> 00:40:20.554 The riders can let go because they trust, you know? 00:40:20.554 --> 00:40:23.614 So there's already improvements in the horse's biomechanics. 00:40:24.634 --> 00:40:24.934 Right. 00:40:24.934 --> 00:40:30.274 So if the horse energized, balance rhythmic aligned, are they physically 00:40:30.274 --> 00:40:32.794 connected and moving in a healthy way? 00:40:33.454 --> 00:40:34.534 So that's the fourth priority. 00:40:34.534 --> 00:40:40.744 And then if you got all that now, no matter what sport you're in now 00:40:40.744 --> 00:40:42.664 you're ready for the sport specific. 00:40:42.694 --> 00:40:46.834 So that would be the upper level dressage, the fancy stuff, right? 00:40:47.104 --> 00:40:49.864 That you know, anything that you're, you're doing sports 00:40:49.864 --> 00:40:53.974 specific skills, you're becoming more agile, athletic, strong. 00:40:54.244 --> 00:40:59.914 You're strengthening the muscles of a happy, harmonious, connected under, 00:40:59.974 --> 00:41:03.514 you know, understanding horse's, moving really freely and healthily. 00:41:03.784 --> 00:41:07.084 You're strengthening those muscles, you know, coordination, 00:41:07.084 --> 00:41:09.064 power, things like that. 00:41:09.064 --> 00:41:16.204 And so when to keep that zoomed out view, you can start to see. 00:41:17.014 --> 00:41:21.484 That a lot of dressage problems are not dressage problems. 00:41:21.874 --> 00:41:27.244 There's something further down on the scale, and so many problems with 00:41:27.244 --> 00:41:34.744 horses can be solved by just lifestyle changes or just taking little small, 00:41:34.744 --> 00:41:38.584 simple things and just getting the communication between the horse and rider. 00:41:38.584 --> 00:41:39.634 What did you ask for? 00:41:39.634 --> 00:41:40.774 Did your horse answer you? 00:41:40.954 --> 00:41:42.364 Did you give him feedback? 00:41:42.994 --> 00:41:43.984 Did you tell him yes? 00:41:43.984 --> 00:41:45.514 Was he feeling successful? 00:41:45.754 --> 00:41:47.764 Can he anticipate it the next time? 00:41:48.004 --> 00:41:51.214 Or are you just controlling him and wanting him to be mindless? 00:41:51.274 --> 00:41:53.374 Some people want their horses to be mindless. 00:41:54.124 --> 00:41:55.474 I like my horses to think. 00:41:56.054 --> 00:42:04.274 So, so that scale I just find so helpful because it, it incorporates a lot, but 00:42:04.274 --> 00:42:07.094 it also gives you some decision making. 00:42:07.944 --> 00:42:10.104 Ways to decision make in your horse's training. 00:42:10.104 --> 00:42:11.634 Like, well, this is not working well. 00:42:11.634 --> 00:42:14.694 Is there anything below there that I could, you know, improve? 00:42:15.264 --> 00:42:21.834 And it helps remind to have a holistic view that like how your 00:42:21.834 --> 00:42:25.014 half passes is way up on that scale. 00:42:25.884 --> 00:42:28.514 And there's this, an example I like to give. 00:42:28.514 --> 00:42:32.564 I mean, you can probably think of a million examples, but, you know, dressage 00:42:32.564 --> 00:42:39.164 clinic in a covered arena, young horse comes in, doesn't wanna go in the arena, 00:42:39.224 --> 00:42:43.124 bulks at the door, they get him in. 00:42:43.454 --> 00:42:48.104 Now he's in, now he's tense and he's kind of frozen and not going forward. 00:42:49.454 --> 00:42:51.884 Come on, come on, get your leg, tap him. 00:42:51.884 --> 00:42:54.434 Pretty soon the instructor's behind him with a lunge whip. 00:42:54.764 --> 00:42:56.984 Now they're chasing the horse around the arena. 00:42:57.854 --> 00:43:01.154 This is not dressage, but that was a dressage. 00:43:01.994 --> 00:43:05.594 So they had to make it look like it was working when it wasn't. 00:43:05.804 --> 00:43:09.284 And I'm sitting there going, there's an outdoor arena right next door that he 00:43:09.284 --> 00:43:11.024 warmed up in that he was perfectly fine. 00:43:11.684 --> 00:43:16.604 So for me, the choice would be stay in the covered arena. 00:43:16.664 --> 00:43:20.804 But the goal is that he's confident in there that he trusts 00:43:20.804 --> 00:43:22.244 you, that you have some harmony. 00:43:22.334 --> 00:43:25.634 They were ruining harmony, they were chasing him with a whip 00:43:25.904 --> 00:43:28.004 that's not very harmonious, right? 00:43:28.004 --> 00:43:32.204 So stay in the covered arena and let the horse go, oh, I was 00:43:32.204 --> 00:43:33.794 scared, but actually it's okay. 00:43:33.914 --> 00:43:38.654 Or if you really wanna take advantage of the dressage of professional there 00:43:38.654 --> 00:43:40.754 and have a dressage lesson, go outside. 00:43:41.114 --> 00:43:43.604 'cause he is fine outside and you can actually do dressage. 00:43:44.564 --> 00:43:46.994 And I'm watching this going, what the heck? 00:43:47.564 --> 00:43:49.904 But they all went to the default. 00:43:50.534 --> 00:43:55.364 Mode of, we must make it look like it's working, even if it's not. 00:43:55.364 --> 00:43:59.024 And that what you said, that militaristic background attitude comes in. 00:43:59.234 --> 00:44:02.714 He must, and I'm thinking No, he, he doesn't must. 00:44:03.039 --> 00:44:05.084 Rupert Isaacson: Well, and, and the idea that one is doing this 00:44:05.084 --> 00:44:07.184 to perform for a judge rather than 00:44:07.304 --> 00:44:07.394 Karen Rohlf: Right 00:44:08.234 --> 00:44:11.684 Rupert Isaacson: for its own sake is so built in. 00:44:12.434 --> 00:44:16.064 I remember, I forget where we were training a horse in Pife and 00:44:17.204 --> 00:44:22.964 the, we got the horse really gave this beautiful result and someone 00:44:22.964 --> 00:44:25.844 said, yeah, but that wouldn't get you a nine in front of a judge. 00:44:25.844 --> 00:44:27.494 I'm like, absolutely it wouldn't. 00:44:27.894 --> 00:44:28.314 Karen Rohlf: Yeah, 00:44:28.374 --> 00:44:31.314 Rupert Isaacson: because that's not the point of what we're trying to do here. 00:44:31.704 --> 00:44:35.544 There could come a day where that might be a relevant thing to 00:44:35.544 --> 00:44:37.734 think about, but that's not today. 00:44:38.184 --> 00:44:41.844 Why, in your mind, are you already there? 00:44:42.354 --> 00:44:44.784 Why are you not just within the joy of. 00:44:45.309 --> 00:44:47.049 PFA, which is a joyful thing. 00:44:47.529 --> 00:44:49.809 It, of horses do it in nature when they express joy. 00:44:50.499 --> 00:44:55.089 And but you could tell that that person that made that comment was actually not 00:44:55.089 --> 00:44:58.539 coming from a bad place, that it was just what had been drummed into them. 00:44:59.289 --> 00:44:59.559 Karen Rohlf: Exactly. 00:44:59.629 --> 00:45:02.569 Rupert Isaacson: And again, the tyranny of, of correctness 00:45:02.569 --> 00:45:03.829 and then what even is Correct. 00:45:04.129 --> 00:45:08.189 One of the things that yeah, if I'm, if I'm, I, I've, I've abandoned giving 00:45:08.189 --> 00:45:13.329 clinics, actually what I will only do now is workshops where a certain 00:45:13.329 --> 00:45:16.989 number of people will bring a certain number of horses, will kind of have 00:45:16.989 --> 00:45:22.179 an idea of where they're at and where we quite like what concepts would we 00:45:22.179 --> 00:45:27.819 like to introduce and are there things that maybe we would like to polish? 00:45:28.359 --> 00:45:30.969 And then I'll, I'll involve everybody. 00:45:31.699 --> 00:45:36.369 And if a horse is that way I don't have to rush and say There is this hour in which 00:45:36.369 --> 00:45:38.979 this person and this horse, because that. 00:45:39.474 --> 00:45:41.874 I, I fell into that trap and it began to stress me. 00:45:41.874 --> 00:45:45.234 And then I realized I was stressing the horse and the rider as well, 00:45:45.234 --> 00:45:47.364 because I was projecting my stress. 00:45:47.754 --> 00:45:49.134 And I was like, hold on, hold on, hold on. 00:45:49.134 --> 00:45:53.244 And, and it got to this point, I was giving a clinic, an island, and the, the 00:45:53.244 --> 00:45:56.484 horse was so tense and I said, you know, we should just take off his saddle and 00:45:56.484 --> 00:46:01.434 bridle and let him just walk around in here and let him roll and let him explore. 00:46:01.554 --> 00:46:06.564 And luckily the rider saw the sense in that, and I said, you know, don't worry. 00:46:06.894 --> 00:46:10.134 Just let him do that and then put him away and then come back an hour 00:46:10.134 --> 00:46:14.154 from now, because I, I guarantee you, you, we won't run out of time here. 00:46:14.424 --> 00:46:17.964 But anything that we do with the horse in this emotional state would be pointless. 00:46:17.964 --> 00:46:18.204 Right. 00:46:18.204 --> 00:46:21.474 Because we'd just be forcing something. 00:46:21.874 --> 00:46:23.284 Frankly, it could even be dangerous. 00:46:23.284 --> 00:46:24.694 Why, why, why do that? 00:46:25.144 --> 00:46:26.884 And then I was, oh, right, okay. 00:46:26.884 --> 00:46:28.534 I've been going about this the wrong way. 00:46:29.044 --> 00:46:31.834 It should be collegial, it should be collaborative. 00:46:31.834 --> 00:46:35.194 It should be something different when we come together for some 00:46:35.194 --> 00:46:36.574 sort of learning experience. 00:46:37.114 --> 00:46:45.034 What, so it's, it's very interesting to me what you're saying, but now 00:46:45.124 --> 00:46:47.464 talk us through, paint us a picture. 00:46:47.644 --> 00:46:53.854 Let's say you are out giving a clinic or somebody comes to you and they, they do 00:46:53.854 --> 00:46:55.324 come say, okay, I'm a dressage writer. 00:46:55.324 --> 00:46:56.464 I've got this dress problem. 00:46:56.674 --> 00:46:59.674 It's my half pass, it's my pf, it's my flying change, whatever. 00:47:01.594 --> 00:47:06.874 And you can tell that what they need is happiness and harmony. 00:47:07.159 --> 00:47:07.579 Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm. 00:47:09.454 --> 00:47:09.514 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:47:09.514 --> 00:47:14.944 And what they want is something, what we call in German in sport liquor, you know? 00:47:15.089 --> 00:47:15.379 Karen Rohlf: Yeah. 00:47:15.694 --> 00:47:15.934 Yeah. 00:47:15.934 --> 00:47:21.274 Rupert Isaacson: How are you going to get them to see what you, and 00:47:21.274 --> 00:47:25.054 then that's A, and then B, what actually would you do for them? 00:47:25.684 --> 00:47:30.094 As you may know, if you've been following my work, we are also horsey folk here. 00:47:30.599 --> 00:47:35.089 And we have been training horses for many, many years in the manner of 00:47:35.139 --> 00:47:38.299 the old classical dressage masters. 00:47:38.729 --> 00:47:41.519 This is something which is often very confusing for people. 00:47:41.909 --> 00:47:46.909 We shine a light on that murky, difficult stuff and make it crystal clear. 00:47:47.169 --> 00:47:51.999 If you'd like to learn to train your horse in the manner of the old masters and 00:47:51.999 --> 00:47:57.799 really have fun and joy for you and your equine, go to our website, heliosharmony. 00:47:57.799 --> 00:48:00.129 com Sign up as a premium member. 00:48:00.449 --> 00:48:04.459 and begin to take the Helios Harmony course, which will take you from zero 00:48:04.929 --> 00:48:10.059 to the Piaf, where the horse is dancing on the spot in hand on the ground. 00:48:10.649 --> 00:48:14.359 And then from there, you can develop out to anywhere you want to. 00:48:15.319 --> 00:48:16.059 Heliosharmony. 00:48:16.569 --> 00:48:20.239 com to unlock the secrets of the old masters. 00:48:20.644 --> 00:48:20.944 Karen Rohlf: Okay. 00:48:21.154 --> 00:48:22.624 Those a low that you. 00:48:23.404 --> 00:48:28.024 Brought this up and shared your experience with teaching clinics, because you 00:48:28.024 --> 00:48:33.334 know, in talking to lots of students and horse owners and professionals, 00:48:34.024 --> 00:48:38.464 there's a, there's a group that isn't interested in this sort of conversation, 00:48:38.464 --> 00:48:48.094 but there's a whole group of us that is, and there's this thing where the clients 00:48:48.154 --> 00:48:52.564 don't always feel good about what's happening, but they feel like they have 00:48:52.564 --> 00:48:55.234 to follow what the professional says. 00:48:55.504 --> 00:49:01.229 And the professional doesn't like what's happening, but they feel like they have to 00:49:01.229 --> 00:49:02.974 have meet the expectation of the client. 00:49:03.304 --> 00:49:03.424 Yeah. 00:49:03.424 --> 00:49:08.134 And so this is so good that you did that because both of them are feeling something 00:49:08.134 --> 00:49:10.534 ain't right and no one's saying anything. 00:49:10.984 --> 00:49:11.559 And I, by the 00:49:11.559 --> 00:49:11.599 way, 00:49:11.879 --> 00:49:13.594 Rupert Isaacson: I had another experience where I did the same 00:49:13.594 --> 00:49:14.944 thing and the rider never came back. 00:49:14.944 --> 00:49:16.144 They just thought I was full of shit. 00:49:16.234 --> 00:49:16.594 You know, 00:49:16.594 --> 00:49:17.134 Karen Rohlf: that's okay. 00:49:17.734 --> 00:49:18.064 Rupert Isaacson: I wouldn't 00:49:18.069 --> 00:49:18.799 Karen Rohlf: be able to do anything. 00:49:18.979 --> 00:49:20.399 But see, this is okay and this is where. 00:49:21.259 --> 00:49:25.699 So many problems that horses have are made. 00:49:25.759 --> 00:49:28.189 It's a, it's a money decision. 00:49:28.579 --> 00:49:28.609 Mm. 00:49:28.609 --> 00:49:32.359 I don't wanna lose that client, or I don't wanna, so I think we all have 00:49:32.359 --> 00:49:37.969 to be really brave in what I tell my professionals is like, you have to go 00:49:37.969 --> 00:49:40.759 on record of stating what you're seeing. 00:49:40.759 --> 00:49:42.979 That's what you're there for, your professional opinion. 00:49:43.489 --> 00:49:49.899 And so I'll give an example of a clinic I gave and let me see which one. 00:49:50.709 --> 00:49:50.949 Okay. 00:49:51.519 --> 00:49:55.179 I have a couple, well this one, this is just a normal student. 00:49:55.179 --> 00:49:58.449 And she was like, she had trouble getting to the clinic 'cause her 00:49:58.449 --> 00:49:59.559 force wouldn't load in the trailer. 00:49:59.559 --> 00:50:03.129 And then she got there and she wanted to work on her lateral work. 00:50:03.519 --> 00:50:08.049 And so I, I, I would meet them where they are like, okay, show me your warm up. 00:50:08.229 --> 00:50:09.129 Show me your shoulder ins. 00:50:09.729 --> 00:50:10.089 Okay. 00:50:10.329 --> 00:50:11.379 Show me the Shoulder Inn. 00:50:11.469 --> 00:50:12.159 It was a mess. 00:50:12.699 --> 00:50:16.149 So like, okay, well just talk me through, you know, your aids. 00:50:16.509 --> 00:50:17.739 What are the aids for the shoulder in? 00:50:17.739 --> 00:50:19.149 And so usually it's like a paragraph. 00:50:20.139 --> 00:50:23.739 I'm like, okay, I got the paragraph of AIDS you're using for the shoulder 00:50:23.739 --> 00:50:26.999 in, and then and they're like, okay. 00:50:26.999 --> 00:50:28.379 So it was like leg and nessy. 00:50:28.384 --> 00:50:33.149 It's like, okay, well, you know, are those aids working just in general? 00:50:34.139 --> 00:50:37.619 So like, what happens when you just put your leg on and ask 00:50:37.619 --> 00:50:39.479 the hind end to step under? 00:50:39.869 --> 00:50:42.029 And so I just, just show me that and like, nothing. 00:50:42.299 --> 00:50:44.339 You know, she's like squeezing with his purse. 00:50:44.789 --> 00:50:46.889 So, and then like, okay, well show me what happens when you move 00:50:46.889 --> 00:50:48.719 the shoulders in, like nothing. 00:50:48.929 --> 00:50:52.139 So I was like, okay, all right, well that, this makes sense that 00:50:52.139 --> 00:50:53.039 your shoulder isn't working. 00:50:53.069 --> 00:50:58.109 'cause like, so like, I was like, let's, let's pick one, let's just work on, 00:50:58.109 --> 00:51:01.434 you know, moving the shoulders around and okay, we got something like that. 00:51:01.469 --> 00:51:02.039 I said, you know. 00:51:03.404 --> 00:51:06.014 How about like, let me move the horse's shoulders, and you just 00:51:06.014 --> 00:51:08.624 follow, so I move the horse's shoulders and she's twisting around. 00:51:08.624 --> 00:51:11.564 So I'm like, okay, now try not to twist when, when I move the shoulders. 00:51:11.894 --> 00:51:14.534 And then I was like, would you like, and then we got it going and I was like, 00:51:14.534 --> 00:51:16.034 would you like to learn how to do that? 00:51:16.364 --> 00:51:16.724 You're like, what? 00:51:16.724 --> 00:51:17.324 I just did. 00:51:17.324 --> 00:51:18.644 So pretty soon she's on the ground. 00:51:19.424 --> 00:51:19.724 Now. 00:51:19.724 --> 00:51:23.234 Could I have said we're gonna start with groundwork and do the basic yields? 00:51:23.654 --> 00:51:25.874 And she came for shoulder for lateral work help? 00:51:26.174 --> 00:51:26.984 Probably not. 00:51:26.984 --> 00:51:27.044 Yeah. 00:51:27.794 --> 00:51:29.564 But I followed the logic. 00:51:29.714 --> 00:51:30.464 I was like, show me. 00:51:30.464 --> 00:51:31.814 And I, I always like to do this. 00:51:31.859 --> 00:51:34.094 I, I like students to just show me what they've got. 00:51:34.094 --> 00:51:36.104 I rarely go in and just orchestrate a lesson. 00:51:36.104 --> 00:51:39.134 I'm like, you show me what you are doing and tell me what's not 00:51:39.134 --> 00:51:41.144 working and tell me what isn't. 00:51:41.144 --> 00:51:42.104 I'll see if I can help. 00:51:42.824 --> 00:51:47.564 And so I try to find the biggest pieces of disharmony and like, let's 00:51:47.564 --> 00:51:49.034 clear, let's, let's clear that up. 00:51:49.034 --> 00:51:53.534 If it's a trust thing, then it's like, okay, well what are you worried about? 00:51:53.564 --> 00:51:55.844 If you're, don't trust your horse to let go of the reins? 00:51:55.844 --> 00:51:57.104 What do you think is gonna happen? 00:51:57.104 --> 00:51:58.004 Are they gonna run off? 00:51:58.004 --> 00:51:58.544 Are they gonna. 00:51:59.354 --> 00:52:01.724 Not be able to steer or like, what's the thing? 00:52:01.724 --> 00:52:03.674 And then we work on that. 00:52:03.674 --> 00:52:06.554 So I do a lot of talking to my students. 00:52:06.554 --> 00:52:07.754 I ask them questions. 00:52:07.754 --> 00:52:13.754 I listen to their tone of voice, and I, through those questions, we 00:52:13.754 --> 00:52:18.254 usually go, okay, does it make sense that if we do this, it'll help that? 00:52:18.254 --> 00:52:20.744 Yes, okay, you want something for that? 00:52:20.744 --> 00:52:21.014 Great. 00:52:21.014 --> 00:52:22.364 And now we're together. 00:52:22.904 --> 00:52:27.344 And if I really butt heads with someone, then you know, they don't have to 00:52:27.344 --> 00:52:32.174 stay, they don't, you know, that's, I'm, I'm not gonna compromise that. 00:52:32.174 --> 00:52:33.224 But yeah. 00:52:33.224 --> 00:52:36.714 And I, once I once worked with, I did a clinic and the owner of the 00:52:36.714 --> 00:52:40.914 facility was a Grand Prix rider, and she's like, at the end of the clinic, 00:52:40.914 --> 00:52:41.814 she's like, Hey, can you help me? 00:52:41.814 --> 00:52:44.874 I've got this big horse and I need help with the canter pirouettes. 00:52:45.024 --> 00:52:47.904 He's really gets, you know, he's heavy. 00:52:48.564 --> 00:52:52.554 So I watched her ride around and we stopped to talk. 00:52:53.484 --> 00:52:56.094 And the horse, I was standing in front of her and the horse kept 00:52:56.094 --> 00:52:57.444 like wanting to inch forward. 00:52:57.444 --> 00:53:00.264 And so she had like a grip on the reins and I was like, oh, just drop the reins, 00:53:00.264 --> 00:53:01.374 like, we're gonna talk for a minute. 00:53:01.554 --> 00:53:03.504 And she dropped the reins and the horse would walk forward. 00:53:03.504 --> 00:53:06.684 So she'd, pretty soon she'd be gathering up on the reins holding. 00:53:06.684 --> 00:53:08.094 It was like just standing there. 00:53:08.094 --> 00:53:12.414 So it was clear the horse couldn't stand still on a loose reign. 00:53:13.644 --> 00:53:17.904 And so I started talking about the importance of this and she 00:53:17.904 --> 00:53:21.264 thought that was really boring and went on and did her thing. 00:53:21.264 --> 00:53:26.094 And I was like, no, you really need to be able to stop your horse from your seat and 00:53:26.094 --> 00:53:27.864 drop the reins and have 'em stay there. 00:53:28.824 --> 00:53:33.015 And and she again thought, no, she needed to half halt and do all this fancy stuff. 00:53:33.015 --> 00:53:36.285 And finally she wouldn't listen to me. 00:53:36.285 --> 00:53:37.785 So I was like, just go ride around. 00:53:37.785 --> 00:53:41.145 And I sat in the back wall and started checking my texts. 00:53:42.049 --> 00:53:43.844 I'm like, you don't wanna listen to me, I'm not gonna watch you. 00:53:43.844 --> 00:53:44.594 But I'm like, peeking. 00:53:45.104 --> 00:53:49.484 And so I'd give her this, this example of like canter around and then halt and 00:53:49.484 --> 00:53:50.774 drop the reins and have 'em stand there. 00:53:50.774 --> 00:53:52.094 Like that's your exercise. 00:53:52.874 --> 00:53:57.824 And she kind of got the idea and was trying to sort of work on it her way, but 00:53:57.824 --> 00:53:59.624 then it started getting better, right? 00:53:59.684 --> 00:54:00.944 And she's like, huh. 00:54:01.064 --> 00:54:04.634 And she slowly started to ride closer to where I was and she's 00:54:04.634 --> 00:54:06.494 like, it's starting to get better. 00:54:06.494 --> 00:54:07.214 I was like, oh, okay. 00:54:07.214 --> 00:54:10.844 So I put my phone away and went up and engaged and talked to her 00:54:10.844 --> 00:54:15.794 and she still wasn't like fully committed, but I said, and she had 00:54:15.794 --> 00:54:20.294 these two big mastiffs for dogs, two great big dogs, very well trained. 00:54:21.314 --> 00:54:24.794 And I said, we're talking about the canter pirouette and sitting and all this. 00:54:24.794 --> 00:54:27.854 And she couldn't figure out how what I was doing was related to 00:54:27.914 --> 00:54:29.174 sitting in the canter pirouette. 00:54:29.984 --> 00:54:32.414 And I said, how do you teach your dogs to sit? 00:54:33.254 --> 00:54:34.694 And she's like, I tell them, sit. 00:54:34.874 --> 00:54:35.684 And I go, okay. 00:54:35.684 --> 00:54:39.374 And if they don't, she said, well, I lift up on the collar and push 00:54:39.374 --> 00:54:40.934 down on the rear end and I go. 00:54:41.625 --> 00:54:48.134 Then, and then she went, I let go and I went, oh. 00:54:49.095 --> 00:54:51.375 And she said, oh, I get it. 00:54:52.305 --> 00:54:57.045 So then she went back and played with canner to halt and drop the reins. 00:54:57.045 --> 00:54:59.355 And then I said, okay, now collect the canner and drop the 00:54:59.355 --> 00:55:00.884 reins, but stay at the cantor. 00:55:01.125 --> 00:55:03.495 And we did that a little bit and pretty soon she did a canter 00:55:03.495 --> 00:55:05.055 pirouette with a loop in the res. 00:55:05.895 --> 00:55:06.194 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:55:06.585 --> 00:55:08.714 Karen Rohlf: So it's, it's tracing. 00:55:08.714 --> 00:55:09.795 It's like tracing. 00:55:09.795 --> 00:55:12.795 But with her, I probably had to bridge it a little bit more, 00:55:12.795 --> 00:55:14.775 but I thought I made it clear. 00:55:14.775 --> 00:55:19.284 But just had to think of it differently and, and say, I need the communication. 00:55:19.284 --> 00:55:24.084 I need the trust, I need to educate the horse on the elements, not just keep 00:55:24.084 --> 00:55:30.984 trying to make it happen when it's not, or cont or just use controlling aids. 00:55:31.014 --> 00:55:33.654 'cause you can't really control a horse. 00:55:34.034 --> 00:55:34.264 If that's, 00:55:34.554 --> 00:55:35.604 Rupert Isaacson: well, especially not in a pirouette. 00:55:35.874 --> 00:55:36.054 No. 00:55:36.054 --> 00:55:38.304 Because in a, in a pirouette, as you know Yeah. 00:55:38.304 --> 00:55:41.754 There's a point at which the horse has to carry themselves in it 00:55:42.564 --> 00:55:44.304 and we have to be out of the way. 00:55:44.814 --> 00:55:47.004 And if we in the way, it'll destroy it. 00:55:47.244 --> 00:55:48.144 Pf is the same. 00:55:48.594 --> 00:55:49.074 Is the same. 00:55:49.074 --> 00:55:49.194 Yeah. 00:55:49.194 --> 00:55:53.934 Any of these things that have that really fine balance, if we stop, we have 00:55:53.934 --> 00:55:55.884 to set it up and get out of the way. 00:55:56.394 --> 00:55:56.604 Right. 00:55:56.609 --> 00:55:56.919 If we try to, 00:55:56.939 --> 00:55:59.274 Karen Rohlf: and if you drop the reins, it's not gonna cure everything, but 00:55:59.274 --> 00:56:01.344 you'll find out what piece you need. 00:56:01.404 --> 00:56:02.454 Like, oh, when you drop the res. 00:56:02.754 --> 00:56:02.934 Right. 00:56:03.204 --> 00:56:04.404 Do they need more engagement? 00:56:04.404 --> 00:56:07.554 Do they need to be around or do they need to be a quicker t like 00:56:07.584 --> 00:56:12.234 you'll find out stuff but you, you, it's got to come to a place where 00:56:12.234 --> 00:56:13.674 the horse is carrying themselves. 00:56:13.704 --> 00:56:15.714 'cause that's the point 00:56:16.794 --> 00:56:16.944 Rupert Isaacson: I think. 00:56:16.944 --> 00:56:17.364 Yes. 00:56:18.774 --> 00:56:20.034 In your first story. 00:56:20.364 --> 00:56:23.154 What I found of interest there particularly was. 00:56:24.919 --> 00:56:28.764 You know, the, the school I came into, because I came into dressage through 00:56:28.764 --> 00:56:31.704 the back door, I never intended to have anything to do with dressage. 00:56:32.034 --> 00:56:37.464 It was only that when my son became verbal in the saddle in front of me. 00:56:38.034 --> 00:56:41.064 And I noticed that it was when the horse was in a soft collected 00:56:41.064 --> 00:56:42.354 rhythm that this was happening. 00:56:42.444 --> 00:56:42.804 Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm. 00:56:42.894 --> 00:56:45.744 Rupert Isaacson: That I realized I needed to learn more about soft collected rhythm. 00:56:45.744 --> 00:56:52.194 So that's when I went on this journey that ended up with dressage and I tried going 00:56:52.194 --> 00:56:58.074 through this sport dressage riding lesson route, and I just saw everyone stuck its 00:56:58.074 --> 00:57:01.804 shoulder in for 20 years for the very same reasons that you described and thought, 00:57:01.804 --> 00:57:06.904 well, I, I haven't got time for that, so I need to find something more efficient. 00:57:06.964 --> 00:57:10.864 And that's how I found my way down to the French Portuguese system down in 00:57:10.864 --> 00:57:16.114 Portugal, in Lisbon with the Valencia, and realizing that the entire thing. 00:57:17.824 --> 00:57:21.874 Could, was so much more efficient if you did it on the ground first. 00:57:21.874 --> 00:57:22.504 If you did it. 00:57:22.509 --> 00:57:22.679 Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm. 00:57:22.774 --> 00:57:26.314 Rupert Isaacson: In hand if you understood from the ground what was going on. 00:57:27.124 --> 00:57:30.694 Can see it, get the feel the horse understands. 00:57:31.294 --> 00:57:35.254 You're both together on the ground, then including the counter work. 00:57:35.434 --> 00:57:37.594 And then you are in the saddle. 00:57:37.804 --> 00:57:39.364 You are the sky monkey as I call it. 00:57:39.574 --> 00:57:42.364 But you've got a ground monkey who usually knows more than you, 00:57:42.754 --> 00:57:45.094 who's the one who's doing what's called the assisted in hand work. 00:57:45.094 --> 00:57:48.574 And then you transfer the ground aids to the rider. 00:57:48.664 --> 00:57:49.354 Slowly, slowly. 00:57:49.684 --> 00:57:50.884 That says under, oh, I see. 00:57:50.884 --> 00:57:53.524 When the rider does this with his leg, it means the same as when you 00:57:53.524 --> 00:57:54.754 do that with a stick on the ground. 00:57:54.754 --> 00:57:55.714 Okay, yeah. 00:57:55.714 --> 00:57:56.494 I accept that. 00:57:56.824 --> 00:57:58.924 I understand that there's no stress. 00:57:58.924 --> 00:58:01.534 And then little by little the ground monkey kind of comes away and 00:58:01.534 --> 00:58:04.174 leaves sky monkey and pony together. 00:58:04.234 --> 00:58:07.864 And if, but if sky monkey and pony run into some difficulty, ground 00:58:07.864 --> 00:58:09.484 monkey can come in again and help. 00:58:09.874 --> 00:58:11.584 And this is entirely rational. 00:58:11.614 --> 00:58:12.694 And I realize, oh. 00:58:13.039 --> 00:58:15.469 When I was on the right, what we think of as dressage is 00:58:15.469 --> 00:58:17.089 only actually one small niche. 00:58:17.599 --> 00:58:22.399 There's this thing DOMA Vara, which is what people now call working quotation. 00:58:22.639 --> 00:58:23.659 That is dressage. 00:58:23.659 --> 00:58:24.319 Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm. 00:58:24.325 --> 00:58:27.379 Rupert Isaacson: There is this thing called eo, which is the bull 00:58:27.379 --> 00:58:32.359 fight style, fast combat style, but it's dressage all the way. 00:58:32.629 --> 00:58:35.569 And then there's this Dorma Classica thing where you formalize 00:58:35.569 --> 00:58:39.199 it in a rectangular arena and do it in a sort of balletic style. 00:58:39.589 --> 00:58:44.029 And not every horse likes some horses, like only one of those most, they almost 00:58:44.029 --> 00:58:49.789 all like the working Equitation, Dorma, va Carra one, and some horses like all three. 00:58:49.789 --> 00:58:52.669 And some horses like, you know, there's something there for everyone. 00:58:53.539 --> 00:58:56.089 And this was very clear. 00:58:56.089 --> 00:59:00.889 And so then we just went and started producing our therapy horses this way. 00:59:01.729 --> 00:59:07.279 And what we saw was that within, you know, 24 months, 36 months, you 00:59:07.279 --> 00:59:09.319 could get backyard quarter horses. 00:59:10.144 --> 00:59:11.854 To like intermediate, you know? 00:59:11.854 --> 00:59:11.944 Mm-hmm. 00:59:12.389 --> 00:59:16.384 Because you're doing it on the ground with them, and then when you take it to the 00:59:16.384 --> 00:59:19.414 saddle, they, they understand, and then I realize, oh, that's what self carriage is. 00:59:19.414 --> 00:59:23.524 The horse is able to carry itself, either ride or I'm not carrying the horse. 00:59:23.734 --> 00:59:26.884 This horse, no matter what mistake I make, and I make so many mistakes, 00:59:26.884 --> 00:59:28.444 I'm such an imperfect rider. 00:59:29.254 --> 00:59:31.684 My horse doesn't give a shit because they understand. 00:59:31.689 --> 00:59:33.514 They, they're, they probably prefer it. 00:59:33.514 --> 00:59:36.484 If I was a better rider, they're probably rolling their eyes a bit and going, oh, 00:59:36.484 --> 00:59:39.874 Rupert's sitting off to the right again, and Rupert's collapsed his shoulder again. 00:59:39.874 --> 00:59:44.284 Oh, well, you know, but I still know what it is Rupert wants, so I'm gonna do it. 00:59:44.344 --> 00:59:47.644 You know, he is carrying himself, and of course I need that when 00:59:47.644 --> 00:59:49.114 I'm up there with your child. 00:59:49.114 --> 00:59:49.864 Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm. 00:59:49.909 --> 00:59:53.284 Rupert Isaacson: Because I cannot give my attention too 00:59:53.284 --> 00:59:54.544 much to the horse at that point. 00:59:54.754 --> 00:59:56.194 My attention is all with the kid. 00:59:56.374 --> 01:00:00.304 So I need to say to the horse, can you please do this lovely rhythm thing 01:00:00.604 --> 01:00:04.454 and can you sustain it, please, for as long as me and this child need you to. 01:00:05.419 --> 01:00:08.209 And the horse, if they understand, can say, yeah, and then I can 01:00:08.209 --> 01:00:09.499 give my attention to your child. 01:00:09.949 --> 01:00:13.639 So the difficulty of, you know, 'cause dressage arose outta 01:00:13.639 --> 01:00:14.899 doing jobs on horseback, right. 01:00:14.899 --> 01:00:18.109 It arose out of livestock work, it arose out of war, it arose out of 01:00:18.109 --> 01:00:22.819 hunting, and then it got formalized into the, managed, into the, and even 01:00:22.819 --> 01:00:26.659 the managed the, what we call the arena, but the es comes from the word 01:00:26.749 --> 01:00:31.220 ma, the hand mano and ma in, in French. 01:00:31.639 --> 01:00:34.759 It's where you work the horse to the hand, which is the work on the 01:00:34.759 --> 01:00:39.439 ground, and then taken to having the horse Don Ma, which we call on the bit 01:00:40.220 --> 01:00:40.339 Karen Rohlf: Yeah. 01:00:40.639 --> 01:00:41.389 To the hand. 01:00:41.389 --> 01:00:42.834 Not from the hand. 01:00:43.115 --> 01:00:44.509 Rupert Isaacson: Well in the hand don't. 01:00:44.514 --> 01:00:45.019 Karen Rohlf: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:00:45.019 --> 01:00:47.569 But it, you know, there's a difference between just Oh good. 01:00:47.569 --> 01:00:48.559 I get to use my hands now. 01:00:48.919 --> 01:00:49.609 Rupert Isaacson: Exactly. 01:00:49.849 --> 01:00:50.449 Exactly. 01:00:51.019 --> 01:00:55.270 And so, but this of course is so missing because in the, particularly the East 01:00:55.270 --> 01:01:00.100 Coast American tradition, you know, it came out of the British colonial. 01:01:00.565 --> 01:01:05.695 Tradition of riding, which abandoned all dressage in the 18th century and went to 01:01:05.695 --> 01:01:08.230 forward seat jumping fox hunting, da da. 01:01:08.365 --> 01:01:09.715 So we've had to rediscover it. 01:01:09.715 --> 01:01:14.095 It was the same in the UK and we've discovered it through the German 01:01:14.095 --> 01:01:19.975 sports system, which weirdly abandoned all the in-hand work somewhere 01:01:20.035 --> 01:01:22.495 in the early to mid 20th century. 01:01:22.825 --> 01:01:26.725 But when you read Zieger and Steinberg, they're all about the in hand work. 01:01:27.274 --> 01:01:28.354 All those guys were doing it. 01:01:28.354 --> 01:01:33.124 And then somewhere in the military schools around the early 19 01:01:33.124 --> 01:01:35.015 hundreds, you you, you pick up those. 01:01:35.645 --> 01:01:40.205 Was it HDV 12, that book from the German cavalry, suddenly 01:01:40.205 --> 01:01:41.705 it's not really in there anymore. 01:01:42.214 --> 01:01:45.964 And the Germans will still train the piaf and to some degree the 01:01:45.964 --> 01:01:47.825 passage from the, the ground. 01:01:48.154 --> 01:01:50.375 But the rest of it they don't. 01:01:50.495 --> 01:01:53.645 And what it means is then I lived in Germany for eight years 01:01:54.214 --> 01:01:55.685 and trained and worked there. 01:01:55.685 --> 01:01:59.375 And I realized, oh my gosh, this country that is supposed to be producing all the 01:01:59.375 --> 01:02:02.855 top dressage writers, mostly producers, really shit dressage writers actually. 01:02:03.214 --> 01:02:06.200 And there's just a very, very, very few at the top mm-hmm. 01:02:06.549 --> 01:02:11.404 That get money pumped into them that become the representatives. 01:02:11.404 --> 01:02:17.884 But the vast majority of the people are riding no better than anyone that you'd 01:02:17.884 --> 01:02:25.085 see in a, in a regional show in Missouri, and are not being taught any better. 01:02:25.085 --> 01:02:26.075 The trainers are no better. 01:02:26.075 --> 01:02:27.935 But somewhere in there it got lost. 01:02:27.935 --> 01:02:31.745 So it's interesting that you found your way also through the natural horsemanship. 01:02:31.924 --> 01:02:34.325 So, which of course is largely ground-based. 01:02:34.325 --> 01:02:34.335 Mm-hmm. 01:02:35.479 --> 01:02:41.899 And when you are training, do you get at a certain point, most of your 01:02:41.899 --> 01:02:44.539 clients to understand then, ah, yes. 01:02:44.539 --> 01:02:49.309 If I start from the ground, it's probably going to be clearer, or do 01:02:49.309 --> 01:02:54.470 you still have the vast majority of people with a real emphasis on trying 01:02:54.470 --> 01:02:55.759 to do the whole thing from the saddle? 01:02:57.029 --> 01:02:58.139 Karen Rohlf: It's a, it's a mix. 01:02:58.139 --> 01:03:02.039 I mean, the, definitely the ground groundwork is, is a part of it. 01:03:02.264 --> 01:03:02.484 Rupert Isaacson: Mm. 01:03:02.639 --> 01:03:04.499 Karen Rohlf: But I think, I think I have, 01:03:06.929 --> 01:03:11.729 like, I really feel like if you, like, I'm not the one to go to, if you want to 01:03:11.729 --> 01:03:17.969 like, learn all the classical stuff, you know, from the ground all the way up. 01:03:18.479 --> 01:03:20.309 I really focus. 01:03:20.309 --> 01:03:25.199 I mean, I can, I can't do it, but what I, what I really feel like I help people 01:03:25.199 --> 01:03:28.379 with is whatever discipline you're doing 01:03:28.709 --> 01:03:29.159 Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm. 01:03:30.089 --> 01:03:31.769 Karen Rohlf: To help create this. 01:03:32.699 --> 01:03:38.489 This more harmonious relationship where like, whether you're gonna do jumping 01:03:38.519 --> 01:03:44.549 or reigning or anything like the, I can get, I can help people like see that big 01:03:44.549 --> 01:03:48.959 picture, get the happiness, the harm is the communication a freely moving horse 01:03:48.959 --> 01:03:54.299 with a person who can not get, like, so many people get into dressage and then 01:03:54.299 --> 01:03:56.669 they get frozen by, am I doing this right? 01:03:57.479 --> 01:03:57.569 Mm-hmm. 01:03:57.569 --> 01:03:58.499 Am I doing this wrong? 01:03:58.559 --> 01:04:03.509 And correctness, before getting into that, just saying, you're, 01:04:03.539 --> 01:04:05.129 you're asking the horse something. 01:04:05.189 --> 01:04:06.299 What are you asking? 01:04:06.419 --> 01:04:06.509 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 01:04:06.659 --> 01:04:08.279 Karen Rohlf: How is the horse answering? 01:04:08.579 --> 01:04:09.959 Are you giving the horse feedback? 01:04:09.959 --> 01:04:11.459 Does he know when he's successful? 01:04:12.029 --> 01:04:16.289 And are you getting to this neutral place where, where, you 01:04:16.289 --> 01:04:17.489 know, there is this harmony? 01:04:17.489 --> 01:04:21.809 And then even with the biomechanics, it's like if your horse is not 01:04:22.079 --> 01:04:25.139 moving well, like, just on a really basic level, like what you would 01:04:25.139 --> 01:04:26.879 do maybe in a warmup or something. 01:04:27.179 --> 01:04:29.459 He's, it's, it's, you've gotta change the energy. 01:04:29.459 --> 01:04:30.719 You gotta change the balance. 01:04:31.064 --> 01:04:34.064 Or you've gotta like, say something about the level of relaxation. 01:04:34.064 --> 01:04:35.984 Like, can you talk to your horse about that? 01:04:36.254 --> 01:04:38.624 Can you turn those dials and can you play around? 01:04:39.584 --> 01:04:44.894 And so like when I, when I help people, you know, if they're like, 01:04:44.924 --> 01:04:48.104 oh, my horse is, you know, say they're on the, on line, on the ground and 01:04:48.104 --> 01:04:50.684 the horse is, oh, he keeps falling in on his shoulder, on the side. 01:04:50.924 --> 01:04:52.154 I was like, okay, change something. 01:04:52.634 --> 01:04:55.694 Like, what happens if you lower the energy or raise the energy? 01:04:55.694 --> 01:04:58.544 What happens if, can you, are you able to talk to your horse to 01:04:58.544 --> 01:05:00.494 move the shoulder here and there? 01:05:00.794 --> 01:05:04.154 Like if you want, if your horse is getting wound up, can you tell 'em to chill out? 01:05:04.754 --> 01:05:09.464 And, and then to teach people to play with that and observe. 01:05:10.004 --> 01:05:15.404 And at, by the end of the workshop or clinic, they are telling me when 01:05:15.404 --> 01:05:17.504 their horse is in the best mode. 01:05:17.624 --> 01:05:21.044 Like it's less about, here is the perfect shape for this, and now 01:05:21.044 --> 01:05:22.064 I'm gonna show you how to get it. 01:05:22.514 --> 01:05:23.684 I'm like, feel your horse. 01:05:23.684 --> 01:05:25.184 What adjectives do you want to use? 01:05:25.214 --> 01:05:26.624 Like, did it change? 01:05:26.624 --> 01:05:27.849 Did you understand what you asked them? 01:05:28.919 --> 01:05:32.789 And that's what I really wanna help people with. 01:05:32.789 --> 01:05:37.439 And then from that, you can take that and go do whatever discipline 01:05:37.439 --> 01:05:39.209 you want, follow this path. 01:05:39.209 --> 01:05:43.349 Do Domo, Vaquero, do this, get classes, do competitive dressage, like, you know, do 01:05:43.349 --> 01:05:45.359 it in arena and do the pre Saint George. 01:05:45.359 --> 01:05:45.779 Go ahead. 01:05:46.119 --> 01:05:51.459 Because all you can shape that into what you want at that sport level. 01:05:52.039 --> 01:05:56.329 So those conversations, all those things that we're thinking of, yeah, they start 01:05:56.329 --> 01:06:00.739 on the ground and can you influence them on the ground and then, you know, when it 01:06:00.739 --> 01:06:05.149 gets into the more gymnastic movements, yeah, we can do those on the ground too. 01:06:05.639 --> 01:06:09.989 But I think where, where my focus really is, is no matter what you're 01:06:09.989 --> 01:06:11.999 doing with your horse, what discipline. 01:06:13.049 --> 01:06:15.779 You know, when a rider comes to me, I'll like, what's working? 01:06:15.779 --> 01:06:16.409 What's not? 01:06:16.469 --> 01:06:17.489 Show me what you're doing. 01:06:18.554 --> 01:06:22.364 And show me, you know, I'll, I'll look at where I see the disharmony is, 01:06:22.364 --> 01:06:24.914 or the confusion or the imbalances. 01:06:24.914 --> 01:06:28.784 You tell me what you're feeling and let's get to a place where we can 01:06:28.784 --> 01:06:32.624 resolve those so that then you can go on. 01:06:32.804 --> 01:06:35.114 And sometimes they come and I, they check all the boxes. 01:06:35.114 --> 01:06:38.294 I'm like, yeah, let's work on your counter Changes a hand at the half pass. 01:06:38.504 --> 01:06:42.854 Now we're in the gymnastic sport mode and we can get into the details of that. 01:06:42.854 --> 01:06:48.584 But no matter what discipline you're doing, no matter what groundwork or 01:06:48.584 --> 01:06:52.784 classical this or that you're doing, you gotta think what's the happiness 01:06:52.784 --> 01:06:53.864 level, what's the harmony level? 01:06:53.864 --> 01:06:55.634 What's the quality of the communication? 01:06:55.994 --> 01:07:00.854 Okay, now we can, we can get precise and say, okay, a shoulder in is a 01:07:00.854 --> 01:07:02.564 shoulder in, and it's exactly this. 01:07:02.564 --> 01:07:06.254 But if all the boxes below that are ticked, it becomes. 01:07:07.334 --> 01:07:09.884 Easier so that, that's really where my focus 01:07:09.884 --> 01:07:09.944 Rupert Isaacson: is. 01:07:09.944 --> 01:07:10.334 Right. 01:07:10.334 --> 01:07:15.824 As you say, a lot of people are frozen and stuck and scared, and when, as you 01:07:15.824 --> 01:07:18.824 know this, you know when your brain is flooded with cortisol, when you are 01:07:19.484 --> 01:07:23.264 in front of a triage instructor, your brain tends to be flooded with cortisol. 01:07:23.624 --> 01:07:27.824 You can't think, and you can't really take in information and learn, and your feel 01:07:27.854 --> 01:07:33.284 goes away, and you may not have ever been able to cultivate, feel, because you might 01:07:33.284 --> 01:07:35.234 have been so controlled and micromanaged. 01:07:35.239 --> 01:07:35.499 Mm-hmm. 01:07:35.579 --> 01:07:35.739 Exactly. 01:07:35.739 --> 01:07:38.624 You know, one sees so many of those dressage rides with a trainer 01:07:38.984 --> 01:07:45.614 micromanaging every minor angle of the shoulder and thinking, gosh, well, even 01:07:45.614 --> 01:07:49.874 if that is working without that voice in the ear, the whole thing would fall apart 01:07:49.874 --> 01:07:54.104 because there's a lack of understanding, as you say, a lack of communication. 01:07:54.464 --> 01:07:54.914 Lack happens. 01:07:55.874 --> 01:07:55.934 Yeah. 01:07:55.934 --> 01:08:00.314 So when, when somebody comes in and they're not aware of these things like. 01:08:02.594 --> 01:08:05.384 One says free movement or quality movement, 01:08:07.904 --> 01:08:12.194 it's by no means a given that any of us would necessarily 01:08:12.194 --> 01:08:14.264 know whether our horse mm-hmm. 01:08:14.714 --> 01:08:16.154 Is in that or not. 01:08:17.174 --> 01:08:22.634 So what do you do when somebody comes in and they, they're actually really unaware 01:08:22.664 --> 01:08:23.774 that they're perhaps in good faith. 01:08:24.134 --> 01:08:24.194 Karen Rohlf: Yeah. 01:08:24.344 --> 01:08:25.334 Rupert Isaacson: But they're really unaware. 01:08:25.334 --> 01:08:28.004 So, so there is disharmony, but they don't know there's disharmony. 01:08:28.274 --> 01:08:28.454 Karen Rohlf: Yeah, 01:08:28.514 --> 01:08:31.004 Rupert Isaacson: there's unhappiness, but they don't know there's unhappiness 01:08:31.304 --> 01:08:34.964 and there's poor quality movement, but they don't know that either. 01:08:35.504 --> 01:08:38.144 And then of course, if you bring that to their attention, they're 01:08:38.144 --> 01:08:39.854 gonna feel somewhat crushed. 01:08:40.444 --> 01:08:47.194 How does one help them in a relatively short space of time to get there? 01:08:47.194 --> 01:08:51.394 See that, and also not be destroyed by thinking, oh shit, I've been doing it all 01:08:51.394 --> 01:08:52.774 wrong, and now I need to go kill myself. 01:08:52.804 --> 01:08:53.194 You know? 01:08:53.624 --> 01:08:58.724 As you know, if you followed any of my work, I'm an autism dad and we have 01:08:58.724 --> 01:09:05.284 a whole career before this podcast in helping people with neurodivergence, 01:09:05.964 --> 01:09:08.184 either who are professionals in the field. 01:09:08.264 --> 01:09:09.104 Are you a therapist? 01:09:09.524 --> 01:09:10.794 Are you a caregiver? 01:09:11.184 --> 01:09:12.194 Are you a parent? 01:09:12.629 --> 01:09:14.659 Or are you somebody with neurodivergence? 01:09:16.099 --> 01:09:21.039 When my son, Rowan, was diagnosed with autism in 2004, 01:09:21.079 --> 01:09:22.709 I really didn't know what to do. 01:09:22.909 --> 01:09:28.179 So I reached out for mentorship, and I found it through an amazing adult 01:09:28.219 --> 01:09:31.019 autistic woman who's very famous, Dr. 01:09:31.169 --> 01:09:32.059 Temple Grandin. 01:09:32.259 --> 01:09:33.899 And she told me what to do. 01:09:33.949 --> 01:09:38.189 And it's been working so amazingly for the last 20 years. 01:09:38.539 --> 01:09:42.989 That not only is my son basically independent, but we've helped 01:09:43.249 --> 01:09:46.999 countless, countless thousands of others reach the same goal. 01:09:47.339 --> 01:09:51.239 Working in schools, working at home, working in therapy settings. 01:09:52.269 --> 01:09:56.709 If you would like to learn this cutting edge, neuroscience backed 01:09:56.929 --> 01:09:58.969 approach, it's called Movement Method. 01:09:59.629 --> 01:10:02.987 You can learn it online, you can learn it very, very simply. 01:10:02.987 --> 01:10:05.249 It's almost laughably simple. 01:10:06.189 --> 01:10:08.889 The important thing is to begin. 01:10:09.819 --> 01:10:12.969 Let yourself be mentored as I was by Dr. 01:10:12.969 --> 01:10:16.259 Grandin and see what results can follow. 01:10:17.289 --> 01:10:20.219 Go to this website, newtrailslearning. 01:10:22.489 --> 01:10:24.994 com Sign up as a gold member. 01:10:25.434 --> 01:10:28.324 Take the online movement method course. 01:10:28.814 --> 01:10:30.184 It's in 40 countries. 01:10:30.794 --> 01:10:32.854 Let us know how it goes for you. 01:10:33.054 --> 01:10:33.824 We really want to know. 01:10:33.834 --> 01:10:38.334 We really want to help people like me, people like you, out there 01:10:38.684 --> 01:10:41.964 live their best life, to live free, ride free, see what happens. 01:10:42.954 --> 01:10:44.274 Karen Rohlf: Well, that, that part might be outta my scope, 01:10:44.274 --> 01:10:45.384 but here, here's what I do. 01:10:45.384 --> 01:10:48.204 This is actually the, this is the fun part for me. 01:10:48.209 --> 01:10:48.309 Okay. 01:10:48.939 --> 01:10:50.439 I'll try to think of an example. 01:10:50.439 --> 01:10:54.749 I'll, I'll, I'll use there's a student, a very dedicated 01:10:54.749 --> 01:10:57.269 student with a lovely horse. 01:10:57.629 --> 01:11:00.809 She'd gone through several horses, you know, but this 01:11:00.809 --> 01:11:02.489 is lovely horse number four. 01:11:02.639 --> 01:11:05.009 But she was, you know, stuck, you know, stuck at the like 01:11:05.009 --> 01:11:06.539 starting second level thing. 01:11:06.839 --> 01:11:09.149 You the shoulder in will be the death of many people. 01:11:09.154 --> 01:11:09.374 Yep. 01:11:09.414 --> 01:11:09.454 Everyone 01:11:09.454 --> 01:11:09.934 Rupert Isaacson: gets stuff at children. 01:11:09.934 --> 01:11:10.214 Yeah. 01:11:10.394 --> 01:11:13.469 Karen Rohlf: And she was, you know, very correct position. 01:11:13.469 --> 01:11:14.849 I should use air quotes there. 01:11:14.849 --> 01:11:16.139 Like, it looked good. 01:11:16.169 --> 01:11:17.189 Lovely horse. 01:11:17.369 --> 01:11:19.829 She was trying so hard to do all the right things, but like 01:11:19.834 --> 01:11:20.849 Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm Mm. 01:11:20.999 --> 01:11:23.429 Karen Rohlf: She couldn't get like a working trot and she was frozen. 01:11:23.429 --> 01:11:25.329 So, so here's what I do. 01:11:25.450 --> 01:11:31.719 This is my, I go, what adjectives would you like to use for your horse? 01:11:32.784 --> 01:11:35.214 You know, I, I, first I say, what adjectives do you 01:11:35.214 --> 01:11:36.654 use to describe your horse? 01:11:37.044 --> 01:11:39.174 You know, heavy, lean, all the things. 01:11:39.174 --> 01:11:40.974 And I say, what adjectives would you like to use? 01:11:41.484 --> 01:11:44.214 And I get them to get those adjectives and I like them, feel 01:11:44.214 --> 01:11:46.284 springier or softer or flowier. 01:11:46.315 --> 01:11:48.894 I'm like, okay, great, let's put those in the front of the mind. 01:11:49.794 --> 01:11:56.124 And then I go, okay, well the best trot is gonna be some degree of energy, either 01:11:56.124 --> 01:11:57.474 higher or lower than what you're doing. 01:11:57.804 --> 01:12:01.044 There's gonna be some balance shift different than what you are doing. 01:12:01.344 --> 01:12:02.934 I don't know what needs to change. 01:12:03.114 --> 01:12:05.484 Maybe the haunches to the left, maybe the NCH is the right, I don't 01:12:05.484 --> 01:12:08.394 know, maybe shoulders, maybe the neck lower, maybe the, I don't know. 01:12:08.754 --> 01:12:12.324 So we're gonna muck around with that and we're gonna make sure at any time that 01:12:12.324 --> 01:12:15.804 you can just exhale and stop and your horse can stand still in a loose reign. 01:12:16.284 --> 01:12:19.644 So we begin, and I might pick one of those. 01:12:20.254 --> 01:12:23.044 But let's say we'll pick, we'll pick balance. 01:12:23.044 --> 01:12:25.084 So sometimes playing with the energy already. 01:12:26.749 --> 01:12:30.949 You know, you'd be like, okay, at high try higher energy, try lower energy. 01:12:30.949 --> 01:12:32.239 Where does your horse meet? 01:12:32.239 --> 01:12:32.359 Mm-hmm. 01:12:32.599 --> 01:12:33.440 More of those adjectives. 01:12:33.440 --> 01:12:33.619 Right? 01:12:34.069 --> 01:12:35.599 So same thing with shoulders. 01:12:35.599 --> 01:12:38.869 So I might say, okay, move the shoulders one way or the other for 01:12:38.869 --> 01:12:43.069 just a stride or two, and then just go back to neutral and we'll muck around. 01:12:43.639 --> 01:12:45.019 And I said, tell me. 01:12:45.499 --> 01:12:52.129 So I have them tell me when do you feel a moment where your horse is slightly more? 01:12:53.209 --> 01:12:55.549 Any one of those adjectives that they just told me? 01:12:55.554 --> 01:12:55.784 Mm-hmm. 01:12:55.869 --> 01:12:57.980 I still haven't told them what they should be doing. 01:12:58.279 --> 01:12:58.429 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 01:12:59.239 --> 01:13:01.549 Karen Rohlf: And so then what'll happen is I'll start to see it 01:13:01.579 --> 01:13:06.079 change and I see this, the student, and I'll go, how about there? 01:13:06.529 --> 01:13:09.469 And then they'll hesitate and now the horse won't be in that moment 01:13:09.469 --> 01:13:11.269 and they go, I think that was better. 01:13:11.929 --> 01:13:12.559 And I go, oh. 01:13:13.369 --> 01:13:15.139 So I'm like, you gotta tell me in the moment. 01:13:15.139 --> 01:13:18.949 I said, I want you to tell me yes if you feel like your 01:13:18.949 --> 01:13:21.259 horse is even infinitesimally. 01:13:22.249 --> 01:13:22.999 However you say that word. 01:13:23.239 --> 01:13:25.819 Closer to one of the adjectives you were looking for. 01:13:26.059 --> 01:13:27.019 Just muck around. 01:13:27.199 --> 01:13:29.869 Change something, go to neutral, change it again. 01:13:29.869 --> 01:13:30.589 Go to neutral. 01:13:31.309 --> 01:13:34.519 And I have to, and I have to keep it lighthearted and give them permission 01:13:34.519 --> 01:13:39.139 to dare to say yes when they feel it. 01:13:39.799 --> 01:13:41.119 And so that's a big thing. 01:13:41.119 --> 01:13:41.989 'cause there's this delay. 01:13:42.019 --> 01:13:43.369 'cause they go, oh my God, I felt it. 01:13:43.759 --> 01:13:44.479 Is that it? 01:13:44.509 --> 01:13:45.319 Was I wrong? 01:13:45.349 --> 01:13:46.189 Should I say it? 01:13:46.189 --> 01:13:47.059 I might be wrong. 01:13:47.209 --> 01:13:48.229 And now the moment's passed. 01:13:48.229 --> 01:13:53.869 So I'm like, listen, your horse is under you going, how am I doing mom? 01:13:54.439 --> 01:13:55.519 And I said, you need to tell. 01:13:55.519 --> 01:13:57.709 So we get them going around, muck around. 01:13:57.709 --> 01:13:58.879 I'll be like, encourage them. 01:13:58.879 --> 01:13:59.419 How about now? 01:13:59.419 --> 01:14:00.529 Like say yes. 01:14:00.529 --> 01:14:01.189 Say it louder. 01:14:01.189 --> 01:14:01.849 Yes. 01:14:02.899 --> 01:14:03.859 Oh, okay. 01:14:04.399 --> 01:14:06.559 Now we go and I say muck around. 01:14:07.219 --> 01:14:07.849 Go to neutral. 01:14:07.849 --> 01:14:08.869 It feels better. 01:14:08.869 --> 01:14:12.949 Say yes and at the same time, reach forward and rub your horse on the neck. 01:14:12.949 --> 01:14:13.699 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 01:14:14.734 --> 01:14:19.924 Karen Rohlf: You would not believe how breakthrough that can be the confidence 01:14:20.134 --> 01:14:24.124 giving the, the rider permission to experiment because precision arrives 01:14:24.124 --> 01:14:25.444 outta the possibility of the play crates. 01:14:25.444 --> 01:14:26.704 Like move stuff around. 01:14:26.854 --> 01:14:26.944 Mm-hmm. 01:14:27.184 --> 01:14:28.909 Let's just, let's see what makes it worse. 01:14:29.734 --> 01:14:35.224 You know, move stuff around the permission to dare to say yes out loud. 01:14:35.434 --> 01:14:40.174 So you have to breathe while reaching forward, extending your fingers 01:14:40.174 --> 01:14:41.524 and connecting with your horse. 01:14:41.524 --> 01:14:44.824 There's a lot of cool things that happen with that. 01:14:45.454 --> 01:14:47.914 And now the horse is going, oh thank God I did it. 01:14:48.364 --> 01:14:50.614 Now the horse is getting this like, whew, I did it. 01:14:50.644 --> 01:14:51.394 Oops, I lost it. 01:14:51.394 --> 01:14:51.934 Muck around. 01:14:51.934 --> 01:14:52.384 Muck around. 01:14:52.384 --> 01:14:52.714 Yes. 01:14:52.924 --> 01:14:53.644 Oh, I got it. 01:14:54.604 --> 01:14:55.354 Oh, I lost it. 01:14:55.354 --> 01:14:59.044 So then we just repeat this and it starts happening more and more frequently. 01:14:59.044 --> 01:15:02.344 The rider now knows what they need to do 'cause they get to repeat 01:15:02.344 --> 01:15:05.224 it a million times, not hold it together for one whole session. 01:15:05.404 --> 01:15:05.764 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 01:15:06.004 --> 01:15:06.014 Mm-hmm. 01:15:06.214 --> 01:15:10.564 Karen Rohlf: And pretty soon now, now the ride, I was like, now you tell me when he 01:15:10.564 --> 01:15:12.304 is in the better, the better spot today. 01:15:13.565 --> 01:15:15.904 And now the students riding around going here? 01:15:16.144 --> 01:15:16.744 Yes. 01:15:16.864 --> 01:15:17.464 Here. 01:15:17.524 --> 01:15:18.724 Oops, hang on a second. 01:15:19.054 --> 01:15:20.794 And I tell them, I have two rules. 01:15:20.794 --> 01:15:24.754 You gotta be either searching or enjoying nothing in between. 01:15:25.054 --> 01:15:28.534 So, so either look for it or just sit there enjoying it. 01:15:28.534 --> 01:15:31.624 And pretty soon the percentage of time searching gets smaller and the 01:15:31.624 --> 01:15:33.784 percentage time enjoying gets longer. 01:15:33.784 --> 01:15:37.144 And the, I never told them what to do. 01:15:37.324 --> 01:15:39.964 They picked the adjectives, they mucked around. 01:15:39.964 --> 01:15:42.094 I just gave them some things to muck around with. 01:15:42.454 --> 01:15:44.105 They told me when is yes. 01:15:44.105 --> 01:15:51.724 And Rupert like 99% of the time, I completely agree that what 01:15:51.724 --> 01:15:54.844 they did improved things and that was better than it was before. 01:15:55.144 --> 01:15:57.214 And I have not told them anything. 01:15:57.394 --> 01:15:58.565 There's no right or wrong. 01:15:58.954 --> 01:16:02.164 That is so powerful. 01:16:02.704 --> 01:16:05.344 And there's so many students who are so. 01:16:06.154 --> 01:16:09.514 Again, like frozen in this like, 'cause I read this technique and they said to do 01:16:09.514 --> 01:16:10.714 it this way and is this the right thing? 01:16:11.134 --> 01:16:15.814 I was like, get, get the connection between you and your horse going freely. 01:16:16.174 --> 01:16:21.634 I was like, if you take that and go play in the bushes all by yourself just doing 01:16:21.634 --> 01:16:26.584 that, you will be 80% more improved. 01:16:26.584 --> 01:16:30.394 And I said, then go get an instructor and they'll tell you some more things 01:16:30.394 --> 01:16:33.034 like, hey, I think a little quicker tempo or a little higher neck or 01:16:33.454 --> 01:16:35.314 more, you know, more angle here. 01:16:35.494 --> 01:16:39.604 I was like, that will be like easy to add on because you 01:16:39.604 --> 01:16:43.264 already have this relationship and communication with the horse. 01:16:43.354 --> 01:16:46.924 I was like, but I, I've never had anybody do that and come back and 01:16:46.924 --> 01:16:53.764 now their horses choppier and more crooked and more, you know, heavy or 01:16:53.914 --> 01:16:56.944 it's always better and it's empowered. 01:16:57.754 --> 01:16:59.764 So that's what, you know, I tell people I'm empowered learning. 01:16:59.764 --> 01:17:01.864 That sounds like you know, a nice thing to put on a website, 01:17:01.864 --> 01:17:02.884 but that's what I mean by it. 01:17:03.889 --> 01:17:05.929 It's like most clinics, I'm not telling. 01:17:06.074 --> 01:17:10.429 At the end of the clinic I go, do you guys realize I never told you what to 01:17:10.669 --> 01:17:13.369 what your working trot needed to be? 01:17:13.400 --> 01:17:16.549 You guys ended up telling me what your horse needed. 01:17:17.119 --> 01:17:21.889 And it's, it's for the basics, but like so many people are struggling 01:17:21.919 --> 01:17:27.949 with the basics that it opens the door to then apply more refinement. 01:17:28.159 --> 01:17:28.549 Rupert Isaacson: Indeed. 01:17:28.849 --> 01:17:32.119 And in fact, I think one could say that no matter how educated you become, 01:17:32.659 --> 01:17:34.279 you're always struggling with the basics. 01:17:34.639 --> 01:17:35.989 There is no time that I'm not. 01:17:35.989 --> 01:17:36.139 Oh my 01:17:36.139 --> 01:17:36.529 Karen Rohlf: gosh. 01:17:36.529 --> 01:17:36.980 Yeah. 01:17:37.190 --> 01:17:37.549 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 01:17:37.999 --> 01:17:42.889 One of the things that I love about what you just said, there were two things too. 01:17:42.919 --> 01:17:46.009 I mean, I like, I liked it all, but two things again, stand out. 01:17:46.099 --> 01:17:48.250 One was you encourage 'em to use their voice. 01:17:48.250 --> 01:17:48.310 Yeah. 01:17:49.210 --> 01:17:55.840 One of the inheritances of the military is have your voice taken away. 01:17:56.650 --> 01:17:58.810 So you are either the officer in charge. 01:17:59.845 --> 01:18:00.925 Or you're taking orders. 01:18:01.675 --> 01:18:07.255 So, you know, when I was at military school, which I was the only acceptable 01:18:07.705 --> 01:18:12.595 thing to say was, yes, Sarge, or yes sir, if it was a commissioned 01:18:12.595 --> 01:18:14.875 officer, no more and no less, no. 01:18:16.195 --> 01:18:23.845 If one takes that to horsemanship, so through pony club, which was taught by 01:18:23.845 --> 01:18:29.095 ex-military, by it all comes to you were occasionally allowed, you know, going in 01:18:29.095 --> 01:18:34.405 at a big fence when I was a kid to give your horse encouragement and also let 01:18:34.405 --> 01:18:37.345 out some of your anxiety about going, oh, you know, as they go over the fence. 01:18:37.915 --> 01:18:38.785 But that was about it. 01:18:39.835 --> 01:18:43.075 But you were allowed to use your voice sometimes negatively. 01:18:43.765 --> 01:18:49.525 Then I didn't realize how out of the use of the voice I was. 01:18:49.645 --> 01:18:53.275 And then of course I'm faced with an autistic child who does not speak 01:18:53.725 --> 01:18:57.055 and the greatest wish I'm having. 01:18:57.985 --> 01:18:58.705 For voice. 01:18:59.605 --> 01:19:05.935 And then through the horse side of the education I have to go through with this. 01:19:06.265 --> 01:19:12.325 I run into Master Luis Valencia in Portugal who shows me that you can train 01:19:12.325 --> 01:19:16.915 a horse right up through the air on the ground between two vocal tones basically. 01:19:17.425 --> 01:19:18.055 Ah. 01:19:18.085 --> 01:19:19.255 Which is, I like that a lot. 01:19:19.255 --> 01:19:20.425 Please can I have more of that? 01:19:20.635 --> 01:19:24.205 And ah, which is, I don't quite want so much of that, please. 01:19:24.775 --> 01:19:29.335 And he said to me, Rupert, you've got to have about minimum 85%, 01:19:29.394 --> 01:19:31.315 ah, or the horse will give up. 01:19:31.915 --> 01:19:35.365 So you need this constant, and then he said, I said, well, what? 01:19:35.425 --> 01:19:37.165 Okay, that makes perfect sense. 01:19:37.575 --> 01:19:41.655 But what we going to do when we get back into a situation where we're not 01:19:41.655 --> 01:19:45.974 allowed to use our voice anymore, IE an arena a, a a show ring or whatever. 01:19:45.974 --> 01:19:48.615 I said, because I know people are gonna ask me that. 01:19:49.184 --> 01:19:51.704 And he said, oh, well then there's all sorts of ways you can cheat Ruth. 01:19:51.804 --> 01:19:57.235 You can just, and so he showed me all sorts of ways to bring it down. 01:19:57.235 --> 01:20:00.955 So for example, if I'm doing, going between say, PF and massage and back again 01:20:01.465 --> 01:20:05.335 if I just go make the sound of per, but 01:20:07.690 --> 01:20:10.645 it, it, it's inaudible, but the horse of course hears it. 01:20:11.215 --> 01:20:16.645 He'll spring into massage, but it starts with HA sar and it, and if 01:20:16.645 --> 01:20:20.575 it's in PF and I put the vocal cue on it, you know, once we've, the 01:20:20.575 --> 01:20:22.375 horse is understanding it and it's. 01:20:22.735 --> 01:20:25.555 The one I was taught is rhythm, rhythm, rhythm. 01:20:25.945 --> 01:20:27.745 Because I don't want to pee one 'cause I want to di I 01:20:27.745 --> 01:20:30.055 want to distinguish up, right. 01:20:30.325 --> 01:20:33.775 So that someone is standing, you know, some distance away, can't hear 01:20:33.775 --> 01:20:36.535 what's going on, but horse sure can. 01:20:36.685 --> 01:20:40.795 So I, you know, as, as you know, when you're going from passage down into p 01:20:40.915 --> 01:20:42.655 that's notoriously difficult, you know? 01:20:42.660 --> 01:20:42.980 Mm-hmm. 01:20:43.165 --> 01:20:46.765 Going from the pi into the passage is somewhat more straightforward. 01:20:47.275 --> 01:20:53.965 So in that deceleration, you know, if I'm beginning to say whisper rhythm, you know, 01:20:53.965 --> 01:20:55.525 he knows exactly what I'm talking about. 01:20:55.525 --> 01:20:55.585 Yeah. 01:20:55.585 --> 01:21:01.045 And, but it's so interesting to have the voice repowered and your, your 01:21:01.045 --> 01:21:06.325 point there of having a, a rider say yes and making it absolutely crystal 01:21:06.325 --> 01:21:11.845 clear to their own nervous system, to the horse's nervous system and brain 01:21:11.905 --> 01:21:17.365 and their endocrine, their emotional system, that this is good and that. 01:21:17.920 --> 01:21:20.590 Blast of dopamine and that, you know, you're talking about 01:21:20.590 --> 01:21:23.860 being in, in the seeking mode. 01:21:23.920 --> 01:21:25.030 You're either searching 01:21:25.480 --> 01:21:25.570 Karen Rohlf: mm-hmm. 01:21:25.810 --> 01:21:26.950 Rupert Isaacson: Or you are enjoying. 01:21:26.980 --> 01:21:31.420 I love that because the, in neuroscience, the, the seeking 01:21:31.420 --> 01:21:34.780 brain is never the stressed brain. 01:21:35.410 --> 01:21:35.590 Karen Rohlf: Right. 01:21:35.620 --> 01:21:37.510 Rupert Isaacson: When we're hunting, when we're looking, 01:21:38.020 --> 01:21:40.300 we're somewhere towards play. 01:21:40.300 --> 01:21:40.390 Mm-hmm. 01:21:41.410 --> 01:21:41.920 Always. 01:21:41.920 --> 01:21:44.500 And horses are the same when there's, Ooh, what's that? 01:21:44.500 --> 01:21:45.700 It's a problem to solve, you know? 01:21:46.030 --> 01:21:46.180 Karen Rohlf: Yeah. 01:21:46.260 --> 01:21:50.190 Rupert Isaacson: When that's taken away, we're almost 01:21:50.190 --> 01:21:51.480 always in some form of stress. 01:21:51.630 --> 01:21:52.020 Right. 01:21:52.500 --> 01:21:52.740 Karen Rohlf: Yeah. 01:21:52.800 --> 01:21:57.150 Rupert Isaacson: And I don't hear that being understood much 01:21:57.600 --> 01:21:57.990 Karen Rohlf: mm-hmm. 01:21:58.230 --> 01:21:59.010 Rupert Isaacson: In massage world. 01:21:59.010 --> 01:22:00.000 So I love that you did that. 01:22:00.000 --> 01:22:01.500 And then the physical connection. 01:22:01.860 --> 01:22:03.810 Now I have this thing called spider fingers. 01:22:04.240 --> 01:22:06.190 When I see people are tense, I, there's two things. 01:22:06.190 --> 01:22:07.285 I, I make them sing silly songs. 01:22:07.990 --> 01:22:09.130 I, I will go first. 01:22:09.130 --> 01:22:12.880 Usually like the naughty limerick that we started this with, which I didn't 01:22:12.880 --> 01:22:16.320 record, but if people want to email me, I will send them the Limerick. 01:22:16.620 --> 01:22:19.170 But I, I make 'em come up with all sorts of silly songs about 01:22:19.200 --> 01:22:20.280 being on the toilet and things. 01:22:20.280 --> 01:22:22.380 'cause it's just, if you're laughing and feeling stupid, 01:22:22.380 --> 01:22:24.330 it's a bit hard to be tense. 01:22:24.330 --> 01:22:24.720 Right? 01:22:24.900 --> 01:22:25.080 Karen Rohlf: Yep. 01:22:25.180 --> 01:22:26.170 Rupert Isaacson: Anything I can think of. 01:22:26.170 --> 01:22:32.290 But then what I'll also do is say, if you can do spider fingers on your 01:22:32.290 --> 01:22:36.610 horse's wither and imagine that you were just massaging him a little bit as 01:22:36.610 --> 01:22:40.295 you go along, you can still hold your reins with your thumb on top mm-hmm. 01:22:40.380 --> 01:22:45.310 And caress your horse and make him feel, but you can also teach 'em to yield to 01:22:45.310 --> 01:22:46.780 the outside reign that way actually. 01:22:46.780 --> 01:22:47.230 Oh, look. 01:22:47.230 --> 01:22:49.180 You know, and Yeah. 01:22:49.720 --> 01:22:51.370 But make it pleasurable. 01:22:51.880 --> 01:22:52.120 Karen Rohlf: Yeah. 01:22:52.450 --> 01:22:55.270 Rupert Isaacson: This concept of joy and pleasure, that it should feel good to 01:22:55.270 --> 01:22:56.320 your horse, that it should feel happy. 01:22:56.620 --> 01:22:57.850 It is missing. 01:22:58.990 --> 01:23:01.300 Karen Rohlf: I mean, why else are you doing this at these days? 01:23:01.750 --> 01:23:02.500 Rupert Isaacson: Say that again? 01:23:02.650 --> 01:23:04.300 Karen Rohlf: I said, why else are we doing this? 01:23:04.300 --> 01:23:08.320 I mean, this is all human folly, and indeed, we're supposed, 01:23:08.765 --> 01:23:09.940 supposed to be doing it for fun. 01:23:09.940 --> 01:23:12.610 We don't, we're not fighting wars anymore. 01:23:12.610 --> 01:23:16.810 I mean, this is, you know, I tell myself all the time, I'm like, you 01:23:16.810 --> 01:23:20.110 know, what's it worth to get my horse to fancy PR on my property 01:23:20.110 --> 01:23:22.030 around when nobody's looking like it? 01:23:22.030 --> 01:23:25.090 It come on like this. 01:23:25.090 --> 01:23:25.885 Rupert Isaacson: Well, it's an exercise. 01:23:25.975 --> 01:23:26.325 Enjoy. 01:23:26.675 --> 01:23:27.365 Yeah, yeah, 01:23:27.395 --> 01:23:27.685 Karen Rohlf: yeah. 01:23:27.905 --> 01:23:28.725 Rupert Isaacson: And an exercise. 01:23:28.870 --> 01:23:30.940 Joy is inherently worth it for its own sake. 01:23:30.940 --> 01:23:33.460 Provided the horse's sharing in that joy. 01:23:33.700 --> 01:23:34.480 Absolutely. 01:23:35.050 --> 01:23:38.590 And you're doing it together well, now that you've reached this sort of all gust 01:23:38.590 --> 01:23:42.640 position of being the car, Royal Highness, 01:23:42.640 --> 01:23:43.690 Karen Rohlf: whatever that means, 01:23:44.770 --> 01:23:45.610 Rupert Isaacson: carer ness. 01:23:45.610 --> 01:23:48.700 Karen Rohlf: Actually, wait, I wanted, I wanted just to say before you get onto 01:23:48.700 --> 01:23:53.720 the important subject of me I just read somewhere that the uk they're allowing 01:23:53.720 --> 01:23:56.390 voice or they're going to allow voice. 01:23:57.260 --> 01:24:00.080 And I'm really curious of like, which words are they? 01:24:00.140 --> 01:24:03.860 You like the, when you said like the negatives, you're allowed to say, like, 01:24:03.860 --> 01:24:08.900 I'm just so curious of how that's going to be used, but it's really I mean, it 01:24:08.900 --> 01:24:13.280 opens up to being able to use at least soothing tones or, you know, absolutely. 01:24:13.430 --> 01:24:14.390 That's the latest. 01:24:14.390 --> 01:24:15.920 It's the lightest of aids. 01:24:15.920 --> 01:24:18.500 Like, why not, how is that cheating? 01:24:18.560 --> 01:24:20.510 Rupert Isaacson: Also the most clearly direct of aids? 01:24:20.510 --> 01:24:23.450 Because it's the aid that anyone more or less can use. 01:24:23.780 --> 01:24:25.610 Because I think if there's anything that defines our 01:24:25.610 --> 01:24:28.880 species, it's the larynx, right? 01:24:29.090 --> 01:24:29.180 Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm. 01:24:29.420 --> 01:24:32.120 Rupert Isaacson: We, we are called homo sapien sapiens, 01:24:32.270 --> 01:24:33.590 which means the thinking ape. 01:24:33.920 --> 01:24:37.760 But that's not a terribly good description because anything with a brain thinks, 01:24:37.790 --> 01:24:41.090 and some things have eight brains, like oc, you know, octopuses or whatever. 01:24:41.090 --> 01:24:41.150 Karen Rohlf: Yeah. 01:24:41.165 --> 01:24:41.285 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:24:41.450 --> 01:24:42.080 So. 01:24:42.725 --> 01:24:46.835 But what most animals vocalize and some of them vocalize in a 01:24:46.835 --> 01:24:49.805 very complex way, but we are the ones who came up with Shakespeare. 01:24:49.805 --> 01:24:53.705 We are the ones that do rap, you know, storytelling. 01:24:53.735 --> 01:24:54.425 That's us. 01:24:54.425 --> 01:24:54.515 Mm-hmm. 01:24:54.755 --> 01:24:54.845 Right. 01:24:54.965 --> 01:24:59.435 So for us to use our voice comes so naturally to us. 01:24:59.525 --> 01:24:59.915 Karen Rohlf: Yeah. 01:25:00.635 --> 01:25:03.995 Rupert Isaacson: Why would we cut away? 01:25:04.415 --> 01:25:04.685 Karen Rohlf: Yeah. 01:25:04.715 --> 01:25:05.915 Rupert Isaacson: The most powerful thing. 01:25:06.905 --> 01:25:07.415 Karen Rohlf: I think. 01:25:07.415 --> 01:25:11.435 So this'll be interesting to see how, how it's used, but it, it's a, it's 01:25:11.435 --> 01:25:14.195 a moving in a really nice direction. 01:25:14.195 --> 01:25:14.555 I think. 01:25:14.555 --> 01:25:15.215 So, anyway. 01:25:15.965 --> 01:25:16.055 Good. 01:25:16.055 --> 01:25:16.835 A little tidbit there. 01:25:17.225 --> 01:25:19.625 Rupert Isaacson: I think the whole thing is actually moving in a good direction. 01:25:19.735 --> 01:25:21.175 I think it has to because it's, 01:25:21.235 --> 01:25:22.315 Karen Rohlf: I was gonna say it has to. 01:25:22.825 --> 01:25:23.125 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:25:23.275 --> 01:25:25.195 It's, you know, if it doesn't, it'll die. 01:25:25.705 --> 01:25:29.485 Now that you've reached this position where you have a platform and people 01:25:29.485 --> 01:25:32.365 listen to what you say do you. 01:25:33.805 --> 01:25:38.125 Are you being brought back into the tournament world 01:25:38.125 --> 01:25:40.105 now to help with these tools? 01:25:40.465 --> 01:25:43.255 Because I mean, you are, you're sitting there in Ocala, which 01:25:43.255 --> 01:25:44.875 is, it's not quite Wellington. 01:25:44.875 --> 01:25:48.685 Wellington is real belly of the beast, but Ocala is not, not belly of the beast. 01:25:48.715 --> 01:25:53.995 It's, there's a lot of pretty serious high dollar, high money, high ambition, 01:25:54.565 --> 01:25:59.455 you know, sport ridey stuff going on from thoroughbreds to dressage 01:25:59.455 --> 01:26:02.095 and jumpers and all Points and Western and all points in between. 01:26:03.505 --> 01:26:04.135 Who comes to you? 01:26:07.195 --> 01:26:11.335 Karen Rohlf: I, you know, it's students who love their horses 01:26:11.335 --> 01:26:12.865 and want to learn what I'm doing. 01:26:12.865 --> 01:26:14.635 So I ha I do have students that compete. 01:26:15.845 --> 01:26:18.735 A student just did their their horses first Pre St. 01:26:18.735 --> 01:26:19.065 George. 01:26:19.065 --> 01:26:22.155 It was horse that was given to them because it was about to be put 01:26:22.155 --> 01:26:24.135 down for extreme behavior issues. 01:26:24.135 --> 01:26:24.225 Mm-hmm. 01:26:24.270 --> 01:26:25.440 And, major. 01:26:25.590 --> 01:26:25.920 Yeah. 01:26:26.490 --> 01:26:30.600 Anyway, they just competed, so I'm not anti-competition, but I, 01:26:31.230 --> 01:26:39.030 I am here to spread the word and help whoever would like to come. 01:26:39.030 --> 01:26:43.740 I helped a young girl with a, with a Grand Prix jumper, who did an amazing 01:26:43.740 --> 01:26:48.660 job with her horse, who was trained originally by a guy who dug a pit on 01:26:48.660 --> 01:26:53.100 his property, would get the horses in the pit and then beat them until 01:26:53.100 --> 01:26:54.360 they figured out how to jump out. 01:26:56.160 --> 01:26:59.580 And now she can do Grand Prix bridals. 01:26:59.790 --> 01:27:04.920 So I help the people who are attracted to my stuff and would like help in this. 01:27:04.920 --> 01:27:11.070 I don't feel like it, I think at first I felt this crusade of I'm 01:27:11.070 --> 01:27:13.140 gonna go change the industry. 01:27:14.035 --> 01:27:18.660 I, I feel as far away from the horse industry, I don't feel like 01:27:18.690 --> 01:27:19.680 I'm part of the horse industry. 01:27:19.680 --> 01:27:22.260 Most of the horse industry I don't like. 01:27:22.260 --> 01:27:23.970 And I think there's this inherent. 01:27:24.525 --> 01:27:30.225 Problem in industry of money and pressure, and I don't know the solution. 01:27:31.425 --> 01:27:31.965 And 01:27:32.535 --> 01:27:32.835 Rupert Isaacson: yeah, 01:27:32.985 --> 01:27:34.965 Karen Rohlf: I don't even know if there should be a horse industry, 01:27:34.965 --> 01:27:39.015 should there really be an industry of breeding million dollar horses 01:27:39.015 --> 01:27:39.945 and then they have to perform. 01:27:39.975 --> 01:27:40.455 I don't know. 01:27:40.455 --> 01:27:45.975 I, I just do, I am with horses because I love horses. 01:27:46.635 --> 01:27:50.835 I love the horses more than sport, and I love the individual horse in front 01:27:50.835 --> 01:27:52.935 of me more than horses in general. 01:27:53.685 --> 01:27:58.215 And yeah, I'm, I'm happy for the internet to be able to share this 01:27:58.215 --> 01:28:00.165 and I'm happy for patients like this. 01:28:00.265 --> 01:28:05.095 I just, in my part of my life, I'm, I'm, it's a weird blend of, I really wanna get 01:28:05.095 --> 01:28:10.645 the word out and I will help who I can help and whoever would like this help. 01:28:11.245 --> 01:28:13.725 But I really like peacefulness. 01:28:13.890 --> 01:28:14.010 I. 01:28:15.395 --> 01:28:15.615 Rupert Isaacson: Mm. 01:28:16.080 --> 01:28:17.400 Karen Rohlf: And I love my horses. 01:28:17.400 --> 01:28:21.030 I have seven and I want to Yeah. 01:28:21.240 --> 01:28:26.010 Spend time being my, I think my goal for a long time as a professional 01:28:26.010 --> 01:28:28.620 was to not live like a professional. 01:28:28.800 --> 01:28:32.040 I'm like, I'm like, how come the amateurs get to have all the fun 01:28:32.430 --> 01:28:33.570 hanging out with their horses? 01:28:33.660 --> 01:28:33.810 Yeah. 01:28:33.960 --> 01:28:36.060 While I'm doing professional horse trainer stuff. 01:28:36.600 --> 01:28:39.690 So I live, you know, people say they wanna come see my facility. 01:28:39.690 --> 01:28:42.630 I'm like, it's my living room, it's just my property and I have 01:28:42.630 --> 01:28:44.160 my horses on it, and that's it. 01:28:44.640 --> 01:28:46.620 'cause I like my horses to live free. 01:28:46.620 --> 01:28:49.650 And if I have borders, then they can't live free. 01:28:49.650 --> 01:28:50.700 And yeah. 01:28:50.700 --> 01:28:56.460 So I am, I, I am trying to spread the message and the philosophy. 01:28:56.460 --> 01:28:59.190 I have so much online access. 01:28:59.250 --> 01:29:03.550 I will go yeah, I will teach anybody who's interested in this stuff. 01:29:04.630 --> 01:29:07.660 I'm finding it even a little bit difficult to go. 01:29:08.485 --> 01:29:12.835 Like you said, you stopped doing clinics, like I find even expos and stuff like 01:29:12.835 --> 01:29:15.325 that, I find it more and more challenging. 01:29:15.325 --> 01:29:21.115 I'm like, I still feel like I'm gonna have to go there and show something or 01:29:21.115 --> 01:29:23.125 prove something or make some result. 01:29:23.155 --> 01:29:28.195 And yeah, I think I, I am really focused on, at and in the one hand 01:29:28.195 --> 01:29:31.045 spreading the word far and wide. 01:29:31.735 --> 01:29:36.025 And on the other hand, the moments with the horses, I want it to feel 01:29:36.895 --> 01:29:41.605 real and intimate and not like a show. 01:29:42.565 --> 01:29:42.835 So 01:29:42.925 --> 01:29:45.535 Rupert Isaacson: I think you put, that's the word intimate, isn't it? 01:29:46.075 --> 01:29:46.585 Karen Rohlf: Yeah. 01:29:46.790 --> 01:29:47.280 Rupert Isaacson: Because 01:29:47.470 --> 01:29:50.785 Karen Rohlf: like you said, like I wanna be able to make the decisions and be real 01:29:50.785 --> 01:29:53.935 and not try to like demonstrate something. 01:29:53.935 --> 01:29:57.745 So it's, I'm just, it's a funny place and it's more in my head 'cause I'm 01:29:57.745 --> 01:29:58.975 sure I can go demonstrate something. 01:29:59.575 --> 01:30:02.665 But I'm trying to, I, I get think just on the personal journey, part 01:30:02.665 --> 01:30:05.725 of things I've been working really hard to let go of my ego and then 01:30:05.725 --> 01:30:06.865 I'm like, well, how do I do that? 01:30:06.865 --> 01:30:10.015 And then do marketing and then go put on a show for people. 01:30:10.015 --> 01:30:13.555 Like, I just wanna be in the moment and see what happens 01:30:13.555 --> 01:30:16.045 and help, help the, the being. 01:30:16.050 --> 01:30:16.270 You 01:30:16.270 --> 01:30:18.175 Rupert Isaacson: can, you can do it, you can do that, you 01:30:18.175 --> 01:30:20.905 can do that if it's in service. 01:30:20.905 --> 01:30:20.995 Mm-hmm. 01:30:21.805 --> 01:30:27.295 So for example, as obviously I go through that because when, when I stumbled 01:30:27.295 --> 01:30:32.435 into this thing with autism, that we really did stumble into something that 01:30:32.435 --> 01:30:34.865 worked first, my son became verbal. 01:30:34.895 --> 01:30:37.565 Verbal, and then it happened again and it happened again and it happened again. 01:30:37.565 --> 01:30:40.895 And then we realized there was a structure to it and we started to 01:30:40.895 --> 01:30:45.275 get the neuroscientist to explain it and okay, we could replicate this. 01:30:46.085 --> 01:30:49.205 And then I went through this real shit. 01:30:49.235 --> 01:30:50.345 If we do that, I. 01:30:51.425 --> 01:30:54.515 Then a people will throw 'em mud at you and that's always 01:30:54.515 --> 01:30:58.835 uncomfortable, but b you're gonna have to get out there and do it. 01:30:59.255 --> 01:31:02.765 And then I thought, yeah, but if I don't, I'm a wanker because there are so many 01:31:02.765 --> 01:31:08.915 parents like me standing in a living room or a field lost not knowing what to do. 01:31:08.920 --> 01:31:14.375 And if I happen to have stumbled into something that works and I don't put 01:31:14.375 --> 01:31:18.845 it out there in the public domain for people to either use or not use 01:31:18.845 --> 01:31:21.515 as they wish, then I'm withholding. 01:31:22.295 --> 01:31:22.415 Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm. 01:31:22.715 --> 01:31:28.355 Rupert Isaacson: And given that, that, that what I'm withholding is a way to 01:31:28.355 --> 01:31:33.515 alleviate suffering, I don't actually have the right to withhold it weirdly. 01:31:34.145 --> 01:31:37.235 And I think that you are probably a little bit in that position. 01:31:37.625 --> 01:31:45.455 So if you found a way that addresses this dressing of the horse thing 01:31:45.875 --> 01:31:48.455 that takes the suffering out. 01:31:49.865 --> 01:31:53.255 You kind of do have to put it in the public domain. 01:31:53.315 --> 01:31:53.585 Karen Rohlf: Well, yeah. 01:31:53.945 --> 01:31:59.675 No, and that's where I, you know, I have a lot of resources and, you know, one 01:31:59.675 --> 01:32:04.595 of the online courses that we have, I'm so proud of because it's, it's not just 01:32:04.595 --> 01:32:09.995 material, but we do weekly calls, so we're, you know, we're in conversation. 01:32:09.995 --> 01:32:13.805 I think this is what, you know, there's a, the world is bombarded with online 01:32:13.805 --> 01:32:17.885 courses, but it's really the live support, it's the community and the being able to 01:32:17.885 --> 01:32:22.865 like, talk about what's happening and, and help people with the thought process. 01:32:22.865 --> 01:32:27.935 And, you know, this glo this more holistic view because it's not just a technique, 01:32:27.935 --> 01:32:29.705 it's in the context of the whole thing. 01:32:29.705 --> 01:32:31.895 So, I mean, I have a huge community. 01:32:31.895 --> 01:32:33.575 I've got instructors that help. 01:32:33.935 --> 01:32:35.915 I have a lot of resources out there. 01:32:36.335 --> 01:32:37.505 And that makes me really happy. 01:32:37.505 --> 01:32:39.575 I love being on podcasts. 01:32:39.575 --> 01:32:43.935 I'm presenting next week with a group that was, is talking about the 01:32:43.935 --> 01:32:47.535 historical, you know, perspectives of cruelty and horse training. 01:32:47.955 --> 01:32:51.165 And I was looking at that and I'm presenting like the modern ethical, 01:32:51.165 --> 01:32:55.815 I'm like, I just, this is, you know, to bring this awareness. 01:32:55.935 --> 01:32:57.195 People have the resources. 01:32:57.195 --> 01:33:01.035 I think I'm, I think it's just at this moment I'm trying to 01:33:01.035 --> 01:33:08.145 balance that with my own personal peacefulness and that's tricky. 01:33:08.175 --> 01:33:08.265 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 01:33:08.685 --> 01:33:10.145 Karen Rohlf: So that's just yeah, that's, 01:33:10.235 --> 01:33:10.535 Rupert Isaacson: yeah. 01:33:10.775 --> 01:33:13.295 Well, it's always easier to keep your ego in check when 01:33:13.295 --> 01:33:14.495 you're not in front of anybody. 01:33:15.005 --> 01:33:15.095 Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm. 01:33:15.335 --> 01:33:17.795 Rupert Isaacson: Which means that you have to go get in front of 01:33:17.795 --> 01:33:19.355 people in order to learn how to, 01:33:19.360 --> 01:33:19.775 Karen Rohlf: to keep your ego. 01:33:19.780 --> 01:33:19.960 Oh, yeah. 01:33:19.960 --> 01:33:24.125 It doesn't count unless you're in the, it doesn't count to be a, the, a prize 01:33:24.125 --> 01:33:25.535 fighter if you never get in the arena. 01:33:25.565 --> 01:33:26.345 No, I get that. 01:33:27.245 --> 01:33:27.995 I have, I have, yeah. 01:33:28.280 --> 01:33:33.245 I have been in public play, so it's just, yeah, it's just a kind of a reshaping of. 01:33:34.055 --> 01:33:36.365 You know how, yeah. 01:33:36.365 --> 01:33:38.825 How I'm spending my time, how I'm spending my focus. 01:33:38.825 --> 01:33:43.025 And at the same time, you know, we have a new course for the 01:33:43.025 --> 01:33:44.315 Happy Athlete Training Scale. 01:33:44.315 --> 01:33:46.115 We've got the sweet spot of Healthy Biomechanic. 01:33:46.145 --> 01:33:47.765 We got tons of stuff. 01:33:48.335 --> 01:33:53.885 And and like I said, I love the, I love the live conversation part of it, 01:33:54.425 --> 01:34:00.365 because it's not just the technique, it's the, it's the daily, you know, 01:34:00.755 --> 01:34:03.905 when you're out there doing it and then okay, it works and now your 01:34:03.905 --> 01:34:05.135 horse is doing something different. 01:34:05.135 --> 01:34:10.855 And how we think through that and how we support the people's their mental 01:34:10.855 --> 01:34:13.765 state through the process and yeah. 01:34:14.065 --> 01:34:14.515 So it's, 01:34:14.515 --> 01:34:17.155 Rupert Isaacson: you say we, is it. 01:34:17.770 --> 01:34:19.570 Is it you and the team at this point? 01:34:19.630 --> 01:34:21.760 Is it you and a main collaborator? 01:34:22.360 --> 01:34:26.890 Is it, or is it when you use we, are you referring more to your 01:34:26.890 --> 01:34:30.220 community and the exchange of ideas? 01:34:30.850 --> 01:34:32.350 Karen Rohlf: Yeah, a little, a little bit of all of that. 01:34:32.350 --> 01:34:36.190 I do have instructors, so I have instructor in the Netherlands and then 01:34:36.710 --> 01:34:40.070 three in the US and one in Canada. 01:34:40.530 --> 01:34:45.170 And they, they do a lot of the coaching calls for the, for the live calls, for the 01:34:45.290 --> 01:34:47.420 sweet spot of healthy biomechanics course. 01:34:47.420 --> 01:34:50.780 And they do clinics and we get together and you know, so 01:34:50.780 --> 01:34:52.280 there's continuing education. 01:34:52.310 --> 01:34:55.005 So they're really helping with the boots on the ground. 01:34:55.340 --> 01:34:57.800 Boots on the ground, yeah, hearts on the ground. 01:34:58.490 --> 01:34:59.355 And, yeah. 01:34:59.625 --> 01:35:02.875 And then I'm, I'm working with hopefully developing something with, 01:35:02.875 --> 01:35:07.915 there's a wonderful Hungarian sport writer and she's being a pioneer and 01:35:08.065 --> 01:35:11.455 introducing Bitless dressage in Hungary. 01:35:11.455 --> 01:35:13.135 And so we're doing stuff together. 01:35:13.135 --> 01:35:13.345 I've been 01:35:13.345 --> 01:35:14.215 Rupert Isaacson: reading about this. 01:35:14.215 --> 01:35:14.695 Yes. 01:35:14.725 --> 01:35:15.985 Karen Rohlf: Yeah, she's lovely. 01:35:15.985 --> 01:35:19.435 So we're she's been through my courses and she's just, yeah. 01:35:19.435 --> 01:35:19.825 Wonderful. 01:35:19.825 --> 01:35:23.845 So we're hopefully developing something to bring the happy athlete training 01:35:23.845 --> 01:35:28.685 scale to more people in a more applicable way instead of just a concept. 01:35:29.015 --> 01:35:29.075 Rupert Isaacson: Hmm. 01:35:29.465 --> 01:35:32.725 Karen Rohlf: And yeah, so I, I really feel 01:35:34.975 --> 01:35:40.825 a desire to spread the concept now that I have the pieces in place 01:35:41.275 --> 01:35:45.505 where people can learn to just have these conversations and give people 01:35:45.505 --> 01:35:48.745 a different way of looking at things. 01:35:48.745 --> 01:35:52.595 And that more holistic view is so important to me. 01:35:52.595 --> 01:35:53.735 So that's why. 01:35:54.515 --> 01:35:55.475 Super happy to be here. 01:35:58.565 --> 01:36:01.715 Rupert Isaacson: I'm gonna ask you to go obviously to tell us a bit more about 01:36:01.715 --> 01:36:04.895 your online resources 'cause a lot of people are going to go check 'em out. 01:36:05.675 --> 01:36:10.115 But before I do, can you tell me about that horse on the wall behind you? 01:36:10.715 --> 01:36:14.015 So for those who are listening, some of you're watching on YouTube and you've 01:36:14.015 --> 01:36:18.215 probably been, but like me wondering who's that horse on the wall behind Karen and 01:36:18.215 --> 01:36:19.895 why has she got that horse on the wall? 01:36:19.895 --> 01:36:21.635 There must be a story there, so let's hear that. 01:36:21.785 --> 01:36:21.875 Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm. 01:36:21.905 --> 01:36:25.535 Rupert Isaacson: But for those of you who can't, who can't see it, she's 01:36:25.745 --> 01:36:31.950 riding, I presume it's you or someone is riding a very lovely SC ball. 01:36:32.210 --> 01:36:32.630 Mm-hmm. 01:36:32.710 --> 01:36:38.305 What we, the bricks would call a SC ball, but others would call a, a brown 01:36:38.305 --> 01:36:40.735 and white pinto, but warm bloody. 01:36:41.525 --> 01:36:41.585 Yeah. 01:36:41.585 --> 01:36:47.045 Who looks very similar to an ACO bred Dutch warm blood 01:36:47.525 --> 01:36:48.965 Oldenberg cross mare that I had. 01:36:49.295 --> 01:36:49.535 Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm. 01:36:49.535 --> 01:36:50.945 Rupert Isaacson: Who was jolly interesting. 01:36:51.345 --> 01:36:52.455 Tell us about this horse. 01:36:52.485 --> 01:36:53.445 Why is she on your wall? 01:36:54.135 --> 01:36:57.375 Karen Rohlf: That is Ovation and he is a paint. 01:36:58.045 --> 01:37:02.625 It was a, his father was a jumper paint horse, and his mother was a Hol Steiner. 01:37:03.675 --> 01:37:07.955 And he was locally bred and yeah, he was bred just around the corner. 01:37:07.955 --> 01:37:10.085 And when I bought my property, I didn't have a whole lot of 01:37:10.085 --> 01:37:12.245 money left over, but he was just. 01:37:12.815 --> 01:37:13.415 Just enough. 01:37:13.415 --> 01:37:14.705 And I got him when he was three. 01:37:15.245 --> 01:37:18.605 And he is, he's just lovely. 01:37:18.635 --> 01:37:19.835 He's a goofball. 01:37:19.835 --> 01:37:25.235 He's my magnificent goofball is what I tell him because he's just powerful and 01:37:25.235 --> 01:37:30.605 sporty and he's does everything in the Grand Prix and he is a complete goofball. 01:37:30.655 --> 01:37:34.135 Most people, if you see him, if you see me on Facebook getting licked 01:37:34.135 --> 01:37:35.965 in the face by a horse, it's him. 01:37:36.515 --> 01:37:39.845 He regularly, after I tack him up, he'll like grab his, his favorite traffic 01:37:39.845 --> 01:37:44.825 cone and try to bring that with him When I go ride, he'll pick up anything 01:37:44.825 --> 01:37:45.815 from the ground when I ride him. 01:37:45.815 --> 01:37:53.455 But he is turning 23 this year and I feel like I'm just figuring him out. 01:37:53.455 --> 01:37:56.395 He's collection did not come easily for him. 01:37:56.395 --> 01:37:58.315 He is a big, powerful mover. 01:37:58.315 --> 01:37:59.665 A lot of pushing power. 01:38:00.035 --> 01:38:01.235 Collection, not so much. 01:38:01.325 --> 01:38:04.475 So I had to be really clever in teaching him. 01:38:04.475 --> 01:38:07.235 And I mean, I feel like just this year. 01:38:08.270 --> 01:38:10.760 We were like, I, I told him, I'm like, ovation. 01:38:10.790 --> 01:38:14.210 'cause he's like a, he's a bit of a brute, you know, he's just like raw. 01:38:14.210 --> 01:38:16.040 He's a very physical kind of horse. 01:38:16.040 --> 01:38:18.080 And I was like, dude, you're 23. 01:38:19.790 --> 01:38:21.500 I'm now just past 60. 01:38:21.500 --> 01:38:26.270 I was like, we, we need to enter the zen master stage of our relationship together. 01:38:27.680 --> 01:38:30.650 So I had to explain to him what, like, what a zen, you 01:38:30.650 --> 01:38:32.120 know, a dressage school master. 01:38:32.120 --> 01:38:34.550 I was like, dude, you're the most educated horse on the property right now. 01:38:34.880 --> 01:38:36.080 Like, you're the zen master. 01:38:36.710 --> 01:38:40.860 And so, yeah, so that's now it's like, I feel like we're like in that like, 01:38:40.860 --> 01:38:44.130 you know, the chef's kiss version of dressage where he's just light 01:38:44.130 --> 01:38:48.090 and he's really carrying himself and powerful and, but his favorite thing 01:38:48.090 --> 01:38:50.220 to do, his reward is extended trot. 01:38:50.250 --> 01:38:52.110 He's like, gimme me the big stuff. 01:38:52.570 --> 01:38:56.490 So yeah, he's, that's why he's on my wall and he's I'm writing him in a rope. 01:38:57.090 --> 01:38:59.850 He's in a rope halter right here, so he's like bitless and 01:39:00.840 --> 01:39:02.205 Rupert Isaacson: ah, I guess he's fantastic. 01:39:02.340 --> 01:39:05.340 I can't see from the angle 'cause he's beautifully, he's beautifully round. 01:39:06.150 --> 01:39:10.410 When you say you had to get clever to teach him that he 01:39:10.410 --> 01:39:11.730 could collect, what did you do? 01:39:13.065 --> 01:39:17.325 Karen Rohlf: Well, like things like, like when, you know, pee off. 01:39:17.325 --> 01:39:20.025 So he has a big swingy hind leg. 01:39:20.265 --> 01:39:23.775 Like, so, you know, as far as his action, he can really swing 01:39:23.775 --> 01:39:28.365 under with his hind leg, but not necessarily articulate his joints. 01:39:28.365 --> 01:39:33.225 So, you know, in doing some groundwork and doing like school halt, when I first told 01:39:33.225 --> 01:39:36.135 him school halt, he'd just like lean back. 01:39:36.405 --> 01:39:37.845 But like the hawks wouldn't bend. 01:39:38.865 --> 01:39:41.025 Like, what are you doing? 01:39:41.325 --> 01:39:43.215 Like, you have to bend your joints. 01:39:43.845 --> 01:39:48.855 So he'd, he'd be very engaged as far as like his feet were under his body. 01:39:49.515 --> 01:39:51.945 I'm almost say engaged, but his hin feet were well under 01:39:51.945 --> 01:39:53.865 his body, but he wasn't caring. 01:39:53.865 --> 01:39:56.415 He just like push, push from those. 01:39:56.985 --> 01:39:59.205 So I had this puzzle, I'm like, ask him to school halt. 01:39:59.205 --> 01:40:01.365 And he's just sort of leaning back over his legs. 01:40:01.365 --> 01:40:03.705 I'm like, you're gonna, you're gonna sit down. 01:40:04.125 --> 01:40:05.985 So not in a good way. 01:40:06.585 --> 01:40:10.995 So I'd have to like start the school halt and then I teach him to pick up his. 01:40:11.700 --> 01:40:12.390 Back foot. 01:40:12.420 --> 01:40:16.410 I was like, you know, those joints bend and so we just do a little bit like rock 01:40:16.410 --> 01:40:19.740 your weight back and like, you know, those joints bend and teach 'em to pick it up. 01:40:19.740 --> 01:40:24.450 And at some point he connected, he went, oh, I can like bend 01:40:24.450 --> 01:40:25.740 them when my weight's on them. 01:40:25.740 --> 01:40:27.300 I like, yes. 01:40:27.900 --> 01:40:30.870 Same thing, he's got a big powerful hind end and not, 01:40:31.020 --> 01:40:33.570 not that free in the shoulder. 01:40:33.570 --> 01:40:37.740 So like, we first would start, you know, trying to like lift the front 01:40:37.740 --> 01:40:42.600 legs and he, like, I noticed when I picked out his feet, if I picked up his 01:40:42.600 --> 01:40:44.460 foot, he'd actually drop that shoulder. 01:40:46.185 --> 01:40:53.160 I'm like, no, stay level or, you know, so in doing like working on 01:40:53.160 --> 01:40:57.630 like Spanish walk kind of stuff, I was like, okay, I need to teach you to like 01:40:57.630 --> 01:41:01.770 lift, you know, forget the extension, just lift up through the shoulder. 01:41:01.770 --> 01:41:06.450 And so we just played until I could, he could like, oh my, I can do this. 01:41:06.450 --> 01:41:10.050 And then when he was there, then extend, and now he already knew how to. 01:41:10.470 --> 01:41:11.160 And this hawk. 01:41:11.250 --> 01:41:14.850 So, but I had to do a lot of fiddling like that on the ground. 01:41:14.850 --> 01:41:17.820 Literally going, your body can move like this. 01:41:17.820 --> 01:41:18.540 Did you know that? 01:41:19.100 --> 01:41:25.430 And then, and then taking that into the riding and, you know, you figured this out 01:41:25.430 --> 01:41:27.800 because you went and studied with masters. 01:41:27.800 --> 01:41:28.250 Who knew this? 01:41:28.340 --> 01:41:31.160 I kind of had to figure out myself 'cause I didn't come from that 01:41:31.160 --> 01:41:32.570 kind of dressage background. 01:41:33.380 --> 01:41:40.160 But whenever I, he had injured himself and it was a front leg injury. 01:41:40.160 --> 01:41:43.760 And so when we got back to the stage where, you know, they're allowed to move 01:41:43.760 --> 01:41:48.200 more, and I thought, well, okay, it's a front leg injury, so this is good news. 01:41:48.470 --> 01:41:50.360 So that means they, I can collect them. 01:41:50.540 --> 01:41:53.840 And I thought it'd be smart to keep 'em collected, not just bomb around. 01:41:55.130 --> 01:41:57.410 And so we were just allowed to walk. 01:41:57.410 --> 01:42:01.910 So I spent a lot of time at the walk and being very particular. 01:42:02.330 --> 01:42:06.440 About his balance and halt and then back up and walk forward just like 01:42:06.440 --> 01:42:11.330 these little moves until the dynamic of energy through his body was such. 01:42:12.080 --> 01:42:15.110 And so I could feel him really collecting his walk and not 01:42:15.110 --> 01:42:16.730 just getting jammed together. 01:42:17.600 --> 01:42:24.560 And yeah, after, you know, doing weeks of that and then I can 01:42:24.560 --> 01:42:26.300 start riding, I'm like, holy crap. 01:42:26.300 --> 01:42:31.700 He's like more collected than before his injury because I took the 01:42:31.700 --> 01:42:37.460 time to just fiddle and find that dynamic, you know, get the dynamic 01:42:37.460 --> 01:42:39.350 working and then adding power to it. 01:42:39.350 --> 01:42:46.840 So, he really helped inform me about the power of just seeing the dynamic, 01:42:46.840 --> 01:42:50.410 seeing how the energy's flowing through the body and, and being conscious 01:42:50.410 --> 01:42:53.200 about where, what I'm adding power to. 01:42:54.265 --> 01:42:57.895 Because he'll, he'll go forward, you know, anytime. 01:42:57.985 --> 01:43:00.955 But it's like I needed to, like, let me organize it and, and 01:43:01.015 --> 01:43:06.205 educate, educate his body to what it, its possibilities could be. 01:43:06.505 --> 01:43:08.395 And then he, he was like, mm-hmm. 01:43:08.485 --> 01:43:09.775 Oh my God, my hind legs bend. 01:43:10.495 --> 01:43:13.195 Like, yes, now you can pee off and you can pirouette. 01:43:13.500 --> 01:43:17.455 And, and Spanish wok was very therapeutic for him. 01:43:17.915 --> 01:43:17.925 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 01:43:18.455 --> 01:43:18.665 Karen Rohlf: Yeah. 01:43:18.665 --> 01:43:23.225 So he's just, he's just a character that I just love. 01:43:23.225 --> 01:43:28.225 He's so goofy and so powerful and so resilient and and he's pretty, 01:43:28.405 --> 01:43:29.250 Rupert Isaacson: can't wait to come be him. 01:43:30.520 --> 01:43:30.810 Yeah. 01:43:30.860 --> 01:43:33.710 Hopefully I'll be later this year. 01:43:33.710 --> 01:43:34.130 So 01:43:34.610 --> 01:43:34.910 Karen Rohlf: yeah, 01:43:34.910 --> 01:43:37.130 Rupert Isaacson: I'd love to drop in, pay homage to him. 01:43:38.570 --> 01:43:42.620 So listen, I, I feel that there are points in the conversation we 01:43:42.620 --> 01:43:44.660 haven't yet had time to touch on. 01:43:45.170 --> 01:43:51.110 And as we approach the two hour mark, what I think maybe we should do is if 01:43:51.110 --> 01:43:55.700 you give all the resources now, the online resources, all the plugs where 01:43:55.730 --> 01:43:58.970 you can find you, how they can sign up for your online stuff, how they can come 01:43:58.970 --> 01:44:00.860 and learn, live with you and whatever. 01:44:01.220 --> 01:44:04.850 And then what I'd like to do with your permission is I'd like to have 01:44:04.850 --> 01:44:10.520 a rematch of this conversation, and I'd like to look at the use 01:44:10.520 --> 01:44:12.950 of dressage for equine wellbeing. 01:44:14.010 --> 01:44:16.950 You've, you've just been touching on it, you know, in, in this, you 01:44:16.950 --> 01:44:19.710 know, for example, how can the, you know, the lifting of the shoulder 01:44:19.710 --> 01:44:21.780 and the Spanish book be therapeutic? 01:44:21.780 --> 01:44:22.890 You know, how can the pf. 01:44:23.295 --> 01:44:25.995 Be therapeutic, particularly as horses age, you know, et 01:44:25.995 --> 01:44:27.285 cetera, et cetera, et cetera. 01:44:27.285 --> 01:44:30.675 And I think this isn't something that is talked about much yet 01:44:30.825 --> 01:44:32.085 within the dressage thing. 01:44:32.325 --> 01:44:36.225 Again, I've had to, because most of the therapy horses that 01:44:36.225 --> 01:44:40.605 we use are old donation horses that we have to yoga, right? 01:44:41.175 --> 01:44:49.365 And so again, that perspective luckily sort of came with the package. 01:44:49.635 --> 01:44:55.185 But IS we all know that the current relationship that the public has 01:44:55.185 --> 01:44:58.095 with dressage is that it's, it's not there for EQU wellbeing. 01:44:58.545 --> 01:45:04.245 And the, that's a little bit like if we were all suddenly, if, if yoga suddenly 01:45:04.245 --> 01:45:08.685 became an Olympic sport and suddenly everyone would be like dislocating 01:45:08.685 --> 01:45:12.165 their shoulders and displacing their hips, doing the very thing that is 01:45:12.165 --> 01:45:13.635 supposed to prevent you from doing that. 01:45:13.665 --> 01:45:14.325 You know what I mean? 01:45:14.325 --> 01:45:15.465 It's, it's, oh yeah. 01:45:16.395 --> 01:45:19.245 So with your permission, could we, could we. 01:45:19.800 --> 01:45:23.610 Have a second conversation this year, another podcast where we 01:45:24.060 --> 01:45:26.310 can talk about that because I, I do think that would be useful. 01:45:26.310 --> 01:45:26.520 I'd love it. 01:45:27.240 --> 01:45:27.540 Karen Rohlf: Yeah. 01:45:27.540 --> 01:45:28.440 I, I'd love it. 01:45:28.440 --> 01:45:31.890 And it's, it's so important and I just feel like, you know what you're just 01:45:31.890 --> 01:45:35.760 saying, like, humans can ruin everything by then having to compete, like I 01:45:35.760 --> 01:45:39.090 met somebody who's like, their hobby, their, their, you know, life passion 01:45:39.090 --> 01:45:42.840 was, you know, orchids and then they're talking about all the competitions. 01:45:42.840 --> 01:45:44.490 So I'm like, you got what? 01:45:44.490 --> 01:45:46.440 There has to be like a best orchid. 01:45:46.620 --> 01:45:47.850 Like, what the hell? 01:45:47.850 --> 01:45:49.590 Can't we just enjoy them? 01:45:50.670 --> 01:45:51.090 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:45:52.410 --> 01:45:53.010 Karen Rohlf: Anyway. 01:45:53.060 --> 01:45:54.680 But yeah, that'd be fun. 01:45:55.700 --> 01:45:56.960 Yeah, because we have lots of stories. 01:45:57.560 --> 01:46:00.080 Rupert Isaacson: Give us, how do people find you? 01:46:00.710 --> 01:46:03.680 Tell us the, the names of your courses, your websites, the lot. 01:46:04.670 --> 01:46:05.240 Karen Rohlf: Awesome. 01:46:05.240 --> 01:46:09.920 Well, if you, if I'm very googleable, but if you go to dressage naturally.net, 01:46:10.460 --> 01:46:12.380 you will find everything. 01:46:12.720 --> 01:46:16.830 There's usually a little green bar on the top that gives whatever 01:46:16.830 --> 01:46:20.260 is currently you know, the, the current thing that's happening. 01:46:20.260 --> 01:46:25.780 But there's also a, a page called Learn and that will list all the courses and 01:46:25.780 --> 01:46:30.040 it, it lists all the online offerings I have in kind of reference to that happy 01:46:30.040 --> 01:46:33.520 athlete training scale of like, which part of the scale does it focus on? 01:46:34.130 --> 01:46:35.900 So there's lots to choose from. 01:46:36.270 --> 01:46:41.280 The, if anybody wants to kind of, the, the lowest price offerings 01:46:41.280 --> 01:46:44.280 are my video classroom, which is just the entire library. 01:46:44.280 --> 01:46:46.500 And you can go muck around and there's a free trial. 01:46:47.110 --> 01:46:50.680 But a lot of people get lost and, and maybe don't want a subscription. 01:46:51.445 --> 01:46:55.735 But the other one I recommend people go to is called How to Create a Happy Athlete. 01:46:56.155 --> 01:47:01.405 And it's very concise and it goes through that happy athlete training scale so 01:47:01.405 --> 01:47:03.325 that you really get the whole concept. 01:47:03.355 --> 01:47:08.365 And then I have like key exercises in each section to, to help, help build that. 01:47:08.365 --> 01:47:13.065 And so that's, that's my new favorite introduction to kind of get the 01:47:13.065 --> 01:47:15.525 nutshell without being overwhelmed. 01:47:15.915 --> 01:47:18.705 And I just leads you through, I just go through the modules and there's 01:47:18.765 --> 01:47:20.625 a bunch of q recorded, Q and As. 01:47:21.720 --> 01:47:27.090 Where you can hear me, you know, student questions and then how I think, talk 01:47:27.090 --> 01:47:31.110 through and explain the logic and how I'm answering based on that scale. 01:47:31.110 --> 01:47:32.490 So that's super fun. 01:47:33.000 --> 01:47:37.120 And then twice a year we open our finding the sweet spot of Healthy biomechanics 01:47:37.120 --> 01:47:41.960 course which is six months of you get lifetime access and then six months to 01:47:41.960 --> 01:47:44.370 live weekly calls, which is super cool. 01:47:44.370 --> 01:47:46.820 And that's gonna be opening up later in March. 01:47:47.550 --> 01:47:50.640 And that's for anybody who's like, all right, I'm in. 01:47:50.730 --> 01:47:55.020 We will hold your hand, we will walk you through it, and we will talk to you every 01:47:55.020 --> 01:47:57.640 week to make sure you don't get stuck. 01:47:59.140 --> 01:48:00.070 So that's it. 01:48:00.070 --> 01:48:03.040 And we, you know, when you get to the website, if you look under the. 01:48:03.670 --> 01:48:07.990 Contact us page or in, it's actually the link is also on the learn page, 01:48:07.990 --> 01:48:12.820 but we do free private consults, which means you can get on the phone with 01:48:12.820 --> 01:48:17.230 one of my instructors and my right hand person and you can sit and just have a 01:48:17.230 --> 01:48:22.629 private conversation and tell her what's going on with you and your horse, and 01:48:22.660 --> 01:48:27.089 she'll help point you to what she thinks will be the best the best resource. 01:48:27.089 --> 01:48:30.599 And we are in touch all the time, so if you need to talk to me, you can. 01:48:31.029 --> 01:48:35.409 But sometimes it's just in this internet world, it's so nice just to talk to a 01:48:35.409 --> 01:48:38.439 human and be able to like, explain things. 01:48:39.039 --> 01:48:43.869 So we really wanna offer, you know, the, the live support. 01:48:43.869 --> 01:48:46.149 There's always someone you can talk to. 01:48:46.149 --> 01:48:47.559 We welcome emails. 01:48:48.019 --> 01:48:50.869 Yeah, just don't, don't be shy about reaching out if you 01:48:50.869 --> 01:48:52.339 have a question or a comment. 01:48:52.339 --> 01:48:53.899 We always available 01:48:56.449 --> 01:48:57.049 Rupert Isaacson: and the book. 01:48:58.669 --> 01:49:01.249 Karen Rohlf: Yeah, on the book you can get to that from our shop. 01:49:01.279 --> 01:49:06.769 It's called, you know, dressage Naturally and it comes, the book itself comes with 01:49:06.769 --> 01:49:09.319 three hours of video, which is super fun. 01:49:09.739 --> 01:49:09.889 Rupert Isaacson: Cool. 01:49:10.429 --> 01:49:10.759 Karen Rohlf: Yeah. 01:49:12.169 --> 01:49:16.819 Rupert Isaacson: Alright, well you heard it lads, so go over there, 01:49:17.089 --> 01:49:18.919 check it out, put your money down. 01:49:19.639 --> 01:49:24.379 And we are gonna have Karen back on and we're gonna talk about, I, I think what 01:49:24.379 --> 01:49:28.159 we'll do is I have a second podcast called Equine Assisted World, and I think that's 01:49:28.159 --> 01:49:29.629 where we should have that conversation. 01:49:29.629 --> 01:49:29.659 Okay. 01:49:30.199 --> 01:49:35.269 Because sometimes, you know, we are assisting Equines Equines at assisting us. 01:49:35.445 --> 01:49:35.735 Karen Rohlf: Yeah, 01:49:36.004 --> 01:49:36.294 Rupert Isaacson: that 01:49:36.655 --> 01:49:36.815 Karen Rohlf: interesting. 01:49:36.865 --> 01:49:37.960 Rupert Isaacson: Look out for that one. 01:49:38.200 --> 01:49:38.560 Please. 01:49:38.590 --> 01:49:40.290 If you're listening and watching. 01:49:40.390 --> 01:49:41.500 Karen, thank you so much. 01:49:41.500 --> 01:49:44.860 This has been really educational and fun. 01:49:44.910 --> 01:49:45.030 Well 01:49:45.345 --> 01:49:46.020 Karen Rohlf: thank you. 01:49:46.320 --> 01:49:47.070 Yeah, super fun. 01:49:47.070 --> 01:49:49.410 And hey, will you come on my podcast sometime? 01:49:49.815 --> 01:49:51.434 Rupert Isaacson: I would love to come on your podcast. 01:49:51.465 --> 01:49:52.065 Karen Rohlf: Awesome. 01:49:52.240 --> 01:49:53.655 We will, we will arrange that. 01:49:53.655 --> 01:49:53.865 Then 01:49:54.825 --> 01:49:58.245 Rupert Isaacson: shoot me an email or, or a text and we'll do, yeah, we'll do that. 01:49:59.355 --> 01:49:59.955 Okay. 01:50:00.045 --> 01:50:01.335 Until the next time, my friend. 01:50:01.815 --> 01:50:02.115 Karen Rohlf: All right. 01:50:02.115 --> 01:50:02.655 Thanks. 01:50:02.715 --> 01:50:02.865 Rupert Isaacson: Bye. 01:50:03.809 --> 01:50:04.320 Thank you. 01:50:04.320 --> 01:50:04.720 Bye-bye. 01:50:04.720 --> 01:50:08.099 I hope you enjoyed today's conversation as much as I did. 01:50:08.930 --> 01:50:12.680 If you did, please help us to make more. 01:50:12.680 --> 01:50:16.560 Please like, subscribe, tell a friend, give us a thumbs up. 01:50:17.010 --> 01:50:22.260 If you'd like to support us on Patreon, please go to my website, rupertisakson. 01:50:22.580 --> 01:50:22.930 com. 01:50:23.130 --> 01:50:26.309 And if you'd like to find out about our certification courses with. 01:50:26.700 --> 01:50:30.650 autism, education, horsemanship, everyday shamanism. 01:50:30.710 --> 01:50:33.050 There's a whole range of cool stuff. 01:50:33.470 --> 01:50:36.500 Putting a show together like this is not an easy task. 01:50:37.749 --> 01:50:42.679 If you'd like to support us, please consider going to our Patreon page 01:50:43.190 --> 01:50:44.419 and showing us some love there. 01:50:45.059 --> 01:50:50.509 Even the smallest donation, it really helps us to keep the good content coming. 01:50:50.889 --> 01:50:52.820 So go to rupertisakson. 01:50:52.860 --> 01:50:55.444 com and click on the Patreon link. 01:50:56.615 --> 01:50:58.525 Not to mention our excellent merch. 01:50:58.585 --> 01:51:03.665 Please go to our shop and check out some of our really cool 01:51:03.675 --> 01:51:05.064 rock and roll themed merch. 01:51:05.105 --> 01:51:06.905 T shirts, hoodies, all that sort of thing. 01:51:07.425 --> 01:51:08.495 rupertisatson. 01:51:08.535 --> 01:51:09.395 com, it's all there. 01:51:09.454 --> 01:51:13.005 I can't wait for our next guest and also to meet you there. 01:51:13.804 --> 01:51:17.595 In the meantime, remember, live free. 01:51:18.525 --> 01:51:19.075 Ride free.