Good morning Grid connections listeners.
Welcome back to
Grid connections.
The podcast where we explore all things transportation, clean energy, and our power grid connecting all of these systems together.
This week on great connections, we're bringing you a special episode recorded live from the EV charging summit at expo in Las Vegas last week.
I led a conversation with three industry leaders, Jane McCurry, the executive director of Clean Fuels Michigan, Tom McCalmont the CEO of Paired Power
and Stacey Simms, Senior Director of Clean Fuels and Infrastructure at CalSTART.
Together, they dig into how state-level innovation is driving electric vehicle infrastructure forward, what's really happening behind the headlines at the federal level,
and why multifamily housing and fleet electrification are shaping up to be the next big growth areas in clean transportation.
Before we get more into today's episode, though, we're also thrilled to officially announce the launch of Grid Connections Consulting.
Our new venture supporting electric vehicle adoption through strategic messaging and fleet electrification consulting, which you can check out by going to gridconnections.co.
You can find the link and everything from today's episode, including more about our guests in today's show notes as well.
Also due to the live venue setting, there are some audio quality issues with today's episode.
Unfortunately, it seemed to be the most pronounced with Tom's mic being a bit quieter than the others.
I'm hoping maybe was some editing.
It will get a little better sorted out.
And so my apologies if you have to adjust the volume up and down, but I hope you still enjoy the episode and all feedback for our next live recordings is welcome as well.
Also, we will be returning to two episodes per week starting next week, and we got some great guests lined up already.
So now back to today's show.
Some of the takeaways that really stood out to me were how we discussed how state and local programs are stepping up where federal support has stalled.
creative financing models for multifamily and fleet charging, why solar powered microgrids are a game changer for grid resilience, the EV industry's messy middle, and what comes
next.
If you enjoyed this episode, us a favor, share it with at least one electric vehicle curious friend and leave us a five star review on your favorite podcast platform.
It really does help us and others find the show.
And don't forget to sign up for our brand new newsletter using the link in the show notes to stay ahead of the curb and electric vehicle policy, infrastructure and innovation.
With that, enjoy.
Thank you for joining us this afternoon at the, I guess technically second day, but first day of the expo here at the EV-Charging Summit.
And I'm just really excited about our panel.
We're talking about specifically the partnership between private and public entities.
And I think even before this, we were kind of talking about what the perceptions are around the federal level, what we're hearing on the state level.
And before we get into that, think we got a lot of really interesting backgrounds with the people on the panel today.
So I'll just kick it off.
And then if each of you can kind of just go through real quick, talk about your background, and then I think we can pretty quickly jump into it.
But my name is Chase Drum.
I have great connections consulting.
We focus on EV electrification, specifically around messaging and how to position it to consumers.
We work with a lot of lobbying and trade associations, as well as even on the technical side with
fleet electrification.
we're doing a lot of fun things in the space.
And Chase, you have the best mic voice I think I've ever heard.
this is definitely your space here.
So my name is Stacey Simms.
I'm a senior director at CalSTART.
I've been at CalSTART now for about a year and a half.
CalSTART is a international multinational nonprofit.
We focus on clean transportation deployment, really working in all sectors.
My team works on clean fuels and infrastructure, so really focusing on how do we deploy infrastructure in a way that will quickly accelerate the industry.
So excited to be here, really excited to see our members.
We have 200 plus members of CalSTART, and it's fun to walk the booth and see them all.
Thanks so much for having me.
My name is Jane McCurry.
I'm the executive director at Clean Fuels Michigan, which is a nonprofit trade association for the alternative fuel and EV industries in the state of Michigan.
We focus primarily on policy advocacy and fostering collaboration and connection between the industry, making sure that we're growing clean mobility deployments in Michigan and
also growing business opportunity.
Good to be here.
but not least, Tom.
Yeah, thank you.
Good to be part of this esteemed panel.
My name is Tom McKellman.
I'm CEO of Paired Power.
We're a developer of microgrid to EV charging solutions.
So we combine solar energy with battery storage and available grid to deliver EV charging solutions in places where the grid is, as you know, many times not adequate.
Well, I think that is kind of a perfect point to kind of jump into the topics.
I'm curious for people in the space, think we've seen already a lot of kind of waves where they're good, like just, just kind of different phases of these changes.
and I think it's much more so like on the state level, you'll see this, but it just never makes the headlines.
So I guess I would love to hear kind of the panel's thoughts about what we're seeing on the federal level, because I get this, I get these questions a lot from.
especially the people who, I call like, EV curious, or people who are looking to electrify, they see the headline, they start getting a little skittish.
So what are some of the things you're seeing, whether it be at the federal or the state level, that are kind of making you really optimistic about where the future is and some of
the exciting signs of the industry?
Sure, I'll go first.
yes, if you've not been in this space for very long, and this is the first time you've gone through a significant change in the federal administration, yes, there can be some
maybe feeling a little chaotic, maybe wondering what does the future hold.
I'd actually say I'm very, very optimistic still in this industry.
started in this space in the early 2000s.
taken the bruises, have been through it.
And what I have always seen is that when you have a really good business proposition, no matter what side of the aisle you're talking to, projects do get developed.
Funding does still flow.
There is already a significant increase in states that are engaging and wanting to do more, wanting to make it more even at a local municipal level, and trying to keep the
industry
not just going, but accelerating.
So I'm actually really excited.
I think we're seeing more and more people coming into this space that understand really this really critical point that we have and are taking advantage of really strong projects
and business cases.
And I expect it to continue.
I agree.
I mean, it's no surprise that we're seeing some headlines and I think it's
disappointing the politicization that's happened to EVs over the past few months.
You know, in Michigan, the Trump campaign spent about $25 million in anti-EV ads.
That's actually a really fascinating call out because that was the only state that specifically called that out.
And it was effective.
It created a lot of fear.
In Michigan, 20 % of people's employment is directly tied to the auto industry.
And so it's
really ingrained in people's livelihoods, in their day-to-day, in the auto culture that we have in Michigan.
And I think that's both a word of caution on where we're at in the industry, but also a real opportunity to double down on positive communications, bipartisan rhetoric, like how
electric vehicles help us use domestic energy.
And maybe, Tom, you want to talk a little bit more about EVs as resilience.
There's so much opportunity here for us to pivot and learn from what's happened over the past few months.
I agree with both of you.
I've been in solar for 25 years.
I've been in energy storage for 15.
I've been in EV charging for 10.
And so I relate my experience to those industries.
The solar industry has grown 30 % per year every year for 25 years.
And it didn't matter what administration.
People love solar.
The public loves it.
It's a very democratic form of power.
And I think EVs are similar.
And once you drive one, you like it, you're going to buy another one.
You're not going to go back.
And so I see the market overall continuing to grow and the opportunity still to grow.
There'll be disruptions, but there'll be temporary.
Okay, that makes a lot more sense, Tom, because I felt like we got along already.
I also worked in the solar industry and as an industry that was so state focused, a lot of these challenges seem pretty straightforward.
The product you can go between states with, not a problem.
Whereas with the solar panels in that industry, had so many more of these kind of just unique
wins that headwinds you'd get with this on the state level.
And I think that's a point about where you're seeing a lot of this opportunity and growth and exactly to what you're going to talk about, Jane, around actually the opportunity of
like messaging and kind of resilience and self reliability of just being able to have your own power.
If you can put like solar on your own home and have the battery backup system do it.
But even if you can't, the ability for the actual technology to kind of help the grid and mitigate a lot of these challenges we're seeing.
I'd be kind of curious if we start looking at where are the opportunities right now, since this is a panel focused on public and private relationships, what are some of the areas
that your teams are seeing success with?
I was going to say, you know, we've seen a little caution with public customers, I think.
They're a little bit back on their heels.
Some of them had applied for CFI grants, things like that, and money got pulled.
And so they're looking for other sources of funding, but they haven't diminished their interest.
so, and certainly in California, where we're based, there's a lot of good action at the state level.
The governor's very supportive.
And so some of that money is going to get replaced.
And I think that's going to make a huge difference and projects getting done.
I agree.
I think there's a bit of caution in the public charging space right now as people figure out how to keep their procurement timelines on track as federal funding has been frozen or
put into question.
We are seeing a lot of activity in the multifamily housing space, another area where there's a significant need for charging to make sure that folks who live in condos and
apartments have access to overnight charging, which we know is a pillar of EV ownership, is being able to wake up to a fully charged battery.
And so in the state of Michigan, we actually just launched a funding platform.
It's called the CFCI, Clean Fuel and Charging Infrastructure Program.
And it's actually specifically targeted at multi-family dwellings right now.
And so we're seeing state dollars being put toward these public-private partnerships where it's state, utility, property owner, and charging companies working together to deploy
chargers.
It's brand new, so we haven't seen deployments out of this program yet, but a huge opportunity and really points to the value of state-based programs to fill in the gaps
from what we're seeing at
And that's fantastic.
I'm glad to hear that there's something in Michigan around there too.
And I know there's been an expansion into the multifamily dwelling house soon in California.
So to your point, there continues to be an expansion.
I think we're even seeing more of an engagement from states saying, what can we do?
How do we leverage other funding that's out there?
How do we take advantage of the fact that there is such an intersectionality?
with EV and other initiatives, other things that the states are working on, other funding that they may have.
So I'm excited about that.
And I do think it's going to continue.
It will have its evolution.
At the end, the state action, I think, is what's going to be valued the most.
Yeah, I completely agree with everyone and what they're saying around that.
I'm kind of curious.
You had a great example of Michigan and what you're seeing there, and then your examples as well.
How, what are, I think some of the things I've seen in my own experience with similar programs, where they succeed and where they have challenges is sometimes in the feedback
loops.
Like how you're getting those wins out there and shared with others.
So I would kind of just like to hear what your experience has been with trying to either get that visibility or just making sure that some of these programs that are really cool
that fill those gaps and that state need actually get out there.
Education and collaboration, I think, are really the name of the game.
Back to the point of our conversation today.
Sticking with this multifamily housing opportunity, we saw a real gap in education.
Do property owners understand that their residents are demanding EV chargers or that by installing EV chargers, they can increase their property values?
I think the answer was no.
So we worked with our members, actually created a guide and it has a whole list of FAQs.
It's got an installation checklist.
It's got information on how your property value can increase by installing EV chargers and then a list of contacts to get started on your EV charging program and how you can get
grant money.
And so I think as an industry, we need to be thinking about how we reach these potential customers in the places that they're at and at the knowledge level that they have.
I think it remains to be seen if this guide is successful, but we're trying to be really creative about speaking people's language and.
and finding them in their property management associations or finding those new audiences to talk about charging.
I agree with your point.
think education is really important and I think there's growing awareness of grid limitations.
You talked about both family and housing.
They're often at the, apartment buildings are at the end of a distribution line or where there's not much capacity.
So they can't really convert to EVs easily without a microgrid solution, like adding storage, adding solar available grid, manage charging, kind of all of that together.
And so I think that...
education helps people understand what the possibilities are to overcome these limitations.
All right.
Well, I think that's a big part of what we do at Grid Connections too, is really around that messaging.
And I feel like what we found, there's a couple things.
One, the most impactful, at least from the electric vehicle side, to get like that interest from the consumer is actually butts and seats.
Like once someone is in the electric vehicle, like, I get this and this could actually work for me.
Having said that, I think that model is pretty clear.
just people need to really lean in.
I feel like people used to lean in and they're kind of like, oh, people figured out now we need to lean back into that.
But on the public or sometimes a private entity, what are those kind of butts and seats moments that you found that can help really get these people who might either be
apprehensive or just not just curious and but still a little skittish to get them across the line?
was gonna say riding drives.
There are a lot of those in California.
don't know about other states, they're a great way for the
public to engage and, let's try it out.
Let's see what it's like to drive one.
And then you drive one and say, this is amazing.
100 % I think once you go EV you don't go back and we CalSTAR we do a significant number of ride-and-drive special especially in California and The best thing that you hear
somebody say is this is kind of like a truck Yeah, it is a truck and then they drive it They're like wait, this is like a jet and it they really like that and to your point I
think butts in the seat is great.
I also think that there's an important piece of
Helping people understand what does charging really mean in terms of, and I'm thinking from the fleet side, but what does it mean in terms of operation?
You know, what is it, what does this port look like?
How do I manage the system?
Like having more of the demonstrations on that point.
So they see it as the ecosystem of EV and not just a truck or not just a charger, but really pulling it together so people can understand how does this work in the functions of
their job.
or of their interests?
I was just going to comment on that.
I love that point because I think the public comes to EVs massively confused about the fueling of an EV.
They have in their mind a gas car, and so they think they need a gas station.
And what you learn the longer you drive an EV is that's not the way 90 % of the charging is done.
It's range replenishment.
I just want to be where I am, do something else.
I don't have to wait for my car to fill.
I'm at school.
I'm at work.
home, I'm in retail, and my car is filling up while I'm doing something else.
And after a while people start to understand that, it's like, what I really need is chargers everywhere.
And they don't have to be high-power chargers, they don't have to be level three, because that's hard on the grid.
They just need to be reliable and consistent.
It'd be reliable.
Which, that's why we're here.
I guess from the side of the
like if you're trying to approach kind of a public entity and say I am a private organization that is trying to help with like multifamily home, you're right, is kind of
the big theme I'm seeing from a lot of people and it's a great opportunity because there's a big gap for it especially what we're seeing with RightShare and EV adoption there.
So I'm kind of curious if there's been any other things that have been effective for getting buy-in from additional stakeholders or
Is it really just, you gotta have that messaging, get out there, and then tie where you can to the right organization.
I think one of the most important things or one of the first questions they ask is financing.
It's always about financing and just to relate it to solar for a minute, know, 15 or so years ago, PPAs came to solar and it ignited the market.
When that got figured out, when solar got bankable and was easy to deploy projects, the financiers became comfortable with it.
And when we get to that point with EVs, the same sort of think viral adoption will take
especially from public agency.
Yeah, actually I'm really excited about that.
started in the transportation world, then I moved over to the built environment where I was focusing on energy performance contracting, which is actually a financial mechanism
that you save.
Because you're to be saving over decades, how do you up front those savings now to pay and leverage for capital deployments and new projects?
I am waiting for that to happen in this space.
I mean, it is a no brainer when you're talking about displacing fuel.
Sometimes in California, that's approaching $5 with, you know, a KWH that's maybe, maybe on the high side of 60 cents, you know?
so like, am waiting for someone to really understand that there is a way other industries have done it to unlock now the savings that you're going to generate over a decade and
then leverage it through.
know some States have the ability to wrap in performance contracting for
fuel switch and EV seems like the perfect placement.
That is the type of thing that we need to see happen in the industry to really unlock the capital.
And just to add a point to it, that's alright.
In solar PTAs, the kilowatt hour is worth say 10 to 15 cents.
But if I can sell that same kilowatt hour to an EV driver, it might be worth double that.
And so to the advantage to the financier is actually terrific.
super creative solutions here.
There is an organization called Pay As You Save or an organization supporting this idea of Pay As You Save where you have kind of that financing upfront and then you pay a little
bit over time, say in an unbilled financing way.
And so you can pay the utility for say the battery and your electric school bus over time so that you're keeping your
operational costs consistent, but you're not having that big increase in your capital costs.
So I do think there's a lot of creative things happening in the financing space.
I think those hard numbers are a key part of unlocking buy-in, especially when you're talking to fleet managers and people that are steeped in the finance world.
TCO was kind of the word I was expecting to come up.
I'm surprised it doesn't come until now.
Yeah.
And I think
Again, back to education, educating those fleet managers on all of the things that should go into the TCO analysis for an electric vehicle.
You're have reduced downtime because there's fewer moving parts.
You never have to stop to get an oil change.
You're gonna have cheaper electricity.
You are gonna have drivers who enjoy driving their vehicles more.
so helping them do that TCO analysis, I think is huge.
And then finding the person, probably the driver, maybe the maintenance tech.
who's really excited about EVs at that fleet.
You need that internal champion to help get the buy-in of all their peers.
So who's the internal influencer at the fleets or at the property management association that can tell their peers how great this transition is?
Well, I think all of that is great.
I'm curious.
What's really interesting about this panel too is we have kind of, like I said, we started with the idea of the federal and it's moving to the state.
We have some interesting kind of different state experiences.
So I'd love to kind of hear what your experiences have been with those states.
You're of getting that buy-in and maybe either seeing things that are working in other states that maybe you've kind of stolen or adopted for your state to kind of find success.
Yeah, so CalSTART is obviously headquartered in California.
We have five regional offices or throughout the United States, actually in six other countries as well.
But I live in Colorado and it is being in California, California and you know this,
It is in many ways more advanced than any other place, maybe any other country.
But Colorado too, seeing how the kind of all of government approach where you have, yes, you have an energy office, but then you have the DOT, you have air quality side all coming
together really to understand how to decarbonize, how to pull all of government together.
Those coordinated conversations within states, I think, is really what is most exciting.
The state of Washington is putting out a new program that brings both the vehicle voucher and the rebate for the infrastructure projects together to help facilitate that whole
project financing.
So I think at the states that I'm working, or the states where I live and other states that we're working in, we are starting to see this more collaboration among state agencies
together to figure out how do we
better response to the market in the through the different capacities of the agencies.
Well, I just want to say, I know you work with Cal, but Colorado kind of calling them out, they've actually been really effective at actually moving pretty quickly to get a lot of
these things implemented.
Not that California hasn't, but it is really cool to kind of see these different approaches to the speeds at rolling out a lot of these different new programs.
Yeah.
And I shout out to the people in Colorado.
What's really great too, is that it's in many ways you get the
the ability to show in real world that EVs can perform at cold, can perform at altitude.
can high wind, high wind.
Yes.
All sorts of like every kind of thing where the arrow and inefficiency of an EV is like charged to its greatest.
Colorado is really a great test bed for them.
Yeah.
And what the state is not, this isn't paid by the state of Colorado, this speech, but it has a great state and the work that that, um, Excel energy is doing and as well as the
other utilities, the municipal's and
in the state working together to figure out how to make this happen.
I think that's the role of public entities is you don't have to be, you don't have to have one agency who takes the lead and carries all of the load.
But just looking across and what are the different agencies doing and how can they partner collaborate to take a piece of that.
Often times you don't even have to go and solicit and ask for new funding, but it's really collaborating in the resources that you have and Colorado has done a great job.
Yeah, Michigan's doing a lot in this space too.
That's true.
It's really exciting to hear about Colorado and California and what we can continue to learn from other states.
But I think Michigan has done a great job at creating spaces where industry is driving the conversation and our policymakers are actually listening to what are the real barriers and
what are the real opportunities in this changing automotive industry.
For example, I sit on the Council on Future Mobility and Electrification.
It's a governor-appointed council that includes all of the major auto manufacturers.
It's got action teams where we've got advocates, utility companies, charging station companies, all coming together and grappling with some of these really hard conversations.
And then we make recommendations that oftentimes turn into bills or budget allocations.
And so it's
people coming together, grappling with these questions and then creating a real opportunity to influence the conversation at the Capitol and create real solutions.
And I hope that's a model that other states are taking too.
think having industry at the table brings both pragmatic ideas, but also real challenges and solutions.
Yeah.
I like what you both said.
I agree with Stacey that trends tend to start in California and kind of spread across the country.
I've seen this in solar for many years.
California is the number one solar market in the United States.
It has been for decades.
But now that has moved to Colorado and Massachusetts and New York and North Carolina.
And I think that same trend we see happening with EVs.
Adoption rates in California are new EVs.
Sorry, new vehicles are in excess of 20 % in Palo Alto where I live.
It's a third.
So.
very high adoption rates for EVs and that drives the trends.
I think one of the interesting things we've kind of been talking about is like where these different states have like really shined and the ways that others could kind of follow
those leads and kind of grow from there.
I would be curious to hear like if we're kind of looking forward, where I mean multifamily as we were just talking about, that's kind of the hot one right now.
Where are some of these other gaps that each of you are seeing that maybe needs to have more of a light shined on it or things that certain states could be doing to really help.
accelerate the growth of this?
I think there's lots of light duty fleets that are ripe for conversion, but there's a lot of confusion about it.
know, think inspection vehicles for big cities, think workplace charging is essentially a fleet and employers are interested in having more EV chargers, but their grid capacity is
limited, especially if you think about like city fleets.
They have a gas tank in the back of lot today, but they have very limited grid at that lot.
And so the only way they can convert those vehicles is add solar, add storage, and make use of available grid capacity to convert them.
And that's where it will start.
There's interest in trucks.
It's a harder problem.
It takes much more grid power to do fleets of trucks.
But it needs to start at light-digger fleets.
So I think there's a lot of interest there and a lot of education gaps.
Yeah, I totally agree with Tom.
I thought fleet and rural.
charging are two huge opportunities where we haven't quite cracked that nut.
Michigan has a lot of rural land.
The Upper Peninsula is, you know, it's a very remote, it's beautiful, it's gorgeous.
It also gets very cold.
I mean, yeah, I mean, there's definitely a good use case for it there for sure.
Yeah, it gets very cold.
know, putting chargers in the Upper Peninsula is a feat in and of itself.
And luckily, again, amazing public-private partnerships that are doing really innovative things.
Polaris partnered with the state of Michigan to do an off-road electric vehicle charging route.
So you can take a Polaris electric side-by-side off-road, charge it in the middle of the woods with battery and solar powered chargers, and, you know, do a whole day trip in an
electric off-road vehicle.
And so there's a lot of exciting things happening, but much more interest in deploying rural chargers at scale, I think, is needed.
I want to piggyback on what you just said there, Jane, because I
We've been talking a lot about on-road fleet, you thinking about the whole industry, I think, and we've already seen it, the off-road at ports, electrifying ports.
We all know that there's big numbers out there right now in terms of investments made in the clean ports program, which CalSTART, we're really excited to be working on.
There are also in kind of inside the gates, manufacturing, you've got your movers, you've got your tugs.
Those are, people often think they can,
I want to talk long haul, over the road, big trucks.
No, there's so many opportunities to diversify the way that we are doing electrification besides just trucks.
And I do want to actually, you guys talked a little bit about the light duty side, but we're focusing a lot too on how do you deploy on the medium and heavy duty side for more
of the building out that national electrification infrastructure to start getting regional.
and longer distance freight planning in place.
And I think this is one thing where, you know, having the states talk among themselves, we facilitate a project for the I-95 corridor from New Jersey down to Georgia.
having the states start to talk about, hey, here's where we think we want to have hubs.
This is how we think we want to have hubs.
And then go to the industry and say, hey, we're talking about this.
How does this line up with the way that you are going to charge?
the business side of freight and moving people and moving things.
So think that's another place where states can partner among themselves and then bring in industry to help figure out how we're going to build this out in the next five to 10
years.
Yeah, I think that's a really everything.
Once again, everything you guys have said, I agree with.
Go figure.
But what's really interesting about I think there's there was a lot of perceptions and kind of conversations around
how to electrify things.
And then they kind of just start moving forward.
And you go back only about five years ago, there weren't really even EV pickups.
You have like EV sedans and maybe one or two crossovers.
Now we have pickups.
There's so many other things that are actually now coming to market.
And I do think there's a lot of potential for a lot of these industries to kind of take a step back again and say, well, maybe now is actually the time that we can really start
moving these fleets to electrification.
I think one...
The final thing I just want to kind of talk with and ask the panel is, let's get looking forward with the things that we've seen already change so quickly and where things, mean,
the class A trucks, that's probably the biggest, hardest use case, is still going electric a little slowly.
I mean, they are a really fascinating part because they the chicken and the egg of, well, you could build these trucks, but there's no charging infrastructure for them just yet.
These companies are doing that.
I think for me personally, that's one of the interesting like kind of gaps still in the industry that is being solved.
And it's probably still another five or so years out before it's like really fleshed out.
But that's one of the areas I think is really fascinating.
I'd be curious just to hear from each one on the panel, like looking for what are some of those areas that you think are really cool or have this kind of potential that's almost
there or just what you're most excited about.
You know, like
An example of Class A trucks or certainly high medium duty trucks that I think is really right for conversion is garbage trucks.
Garbage trucks go out in the morning, do their route, they're done, and then they have the nighttime to charge and there's lots of good capacity at night.
And so I think that'll be the next one after light duty.
That is a good point, yeah.
And school buses would be another one.
In many ways, it's already there.
Refuse started using CNG decades ago, so they have the experience of being able to do that.
I'm just, because I took the mic and I'll get right back to the hookup.
I'm actually most excited in what Tom is working on and looking at how you can...
Good point.
You really bring in the ability to have resiliency.
You're looking at on-site opportunities for demand shift, demand peak.
And we talk about managed charging.
microgrids.
think I'm really excited about that space.
We have some folks on the team that are working on it.
You mentioned Megawatt, MCS, the working group and what they're doing with SAE to get the standards out.
I think that's going to be crucial.
I think that is something, you know, right now people...
It's still early, but it's finally kind of getting to the point now that it can be implemented.
Yeah, because you know, you don't know how materials and elements are going to react when you're hitting with such high dosage, right?
So you want to make sure the standards are in place.
And I think once we start getting there, it's the same with inductive EV charging.
Like getting to the point where you're starting to have standards in place, the industry can fall behind.
Now we know what the equipment looks like.
Now we know how to start incentivizing, how to go to states for regs.
those kinds of the things that we need them to happen faster so that we can continue to accelerate.
But what Tom is working on, I'm really, really excited about.
Yeah, I agree.
think there's so much in new technology that's being proven out right now.
We're seeing EV chargers powered by batteries and solar or maybe powered by a propane tank or a hydrogen tank.
And how do we continue to blur the line between what's been traditionally the mobility industry and what's been traditionally the energy industry?
There used to be a bright line there and it's increasingly
foggy as these two industries interplay and have a lot of value to each other.
So I'm not, I don't have one technology that I'm really bullish on right now, but I think the next one to two years, we're going to really see some of this being proven out and
continue to get more sophisticated.
And I'm really excited as we kind of navigate through this messy middle in the adoption curve.
Thank you for that plug, Stacey, because I really agree with your point.
know, managed charging is absolutely a prerequisite.
and you can get so much more energy from the grid by managing it.
And resiliency is really important as well.
Police stations won't convert their vehicles or fire stations won't convert their vehicles if they don't have a resilient solution because they're worried what happens in an
emergency if it gets out.
So a lot of opportunities for resilience.
I might change my choice.
I think I'm stealing Stacey's.
That's a pretty good one.
The only advantage is you see a big truck going down the road.
A lot of people I don't think always think and see about the micro grid.
But I totally agree with you.
It does unlock a lot of really cool stuff.
So I just want to say Tom, Jane, and Stacey, thank you so much for the panel today.
For those listening, since it is recorded as well, what's the best way to find out more about you and connect with some of the projects you're working on?
Yeah, paired power, P-A-I-R-E-D power.com.
You can find Clean Fuels Michigan at cleanfuelsmichigan.org.
And CalSTART is calstart.org.
Love it.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Thanks for tuning in and that wraps up our special episode recorded live from the electric vehicle charging summit and expo in Las Vegas.
Huge thanks again to our panelists, Tom McCalmont of Paired Power, Jane McCurry from Clean Fuels Michigan, and Stacy Simms from CalSTART for sharing their insights on public-private
partnerships, state-level momentum, and the future of electric vehicle infrastructure.
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