Welcome to the Uncut Podcast. I'm Pastor Luke. I am Pastor Cameron.
And this is the Uncut Podcast, where we have honest, uncut conversations about
faith, life, and ministry.
Cameron, I was just looking at our, like, the show numbers and everything,
and we are at 96 subscribers on YouTube.
We're just four short of a hundred, so that's of the time of this recording.
So yeah, we've been at this for,
this will be episode 47, and we started this podcast in late January,
I think, or early February. Mm-hmm.
It's kind of confusing to me because I know we started recording earlier than
we started releasing the episodes But yeah, there's been we've had some bonus episodes.
So it's not necessarily been one per week. Yes, that's true Yeah,
we're probably somewhere around like if we include the bonus episodes I can
think of two so that probably puts us at like,
49 yeah Well, I mean, our episode numbers are episode numbers,
but like, if we stretch those out, be like almost a year's worth of episodes,
essentially, yeah, just about.
Yeah. So we're coming up. This will be our last episode for the year for 2023. Yeah.
So we thought we would kind of take some time and just kind of reflect on what
the podcast has been, for us, things that we've maybe learned in the year in general,
but also just kind of, yeah, do a bit of a year in review kind of episode.
Yeah, we've like, I was looking at the numbers, and we've had somewhere around
the vicinity of, like, 10,000 downloads and listens, well, across all across all the platforms.
So that's YouTube and all the audio platforms and everything as well.
So that's, you know, that's, do you know where we're what platform experiences
the most traffic with the Um, you know, I think YouTube definitely sees the biggest spikes.
So like if a episode does really well, I think we see, uh, more people pick
that up there, you know, I think our,
um, some of our most popular episodes, I think one of them has like 1,200 views
on it, something like that.
So like one of our episodes that we did a couple, maybe a month ago now,
month, two months ago on Andy Stanley.
I think the first episode that we did on that in his church conference about
homosexuality, that's probably been our biggest episode.
Yep. But we see a lot of consistency in our...
Actually, we see a fair amount of consistency in both YouTube and our audio podcast, we see around,
I would say, like, we can, you know, average between the two of them,
we're consistently about a hundred people we know, listen to it on a regular basis,
you know, so maybe like 45 on like an audio download, maybe another 50 on YouTube.
So that's kind of like a, when we put out an episode, we know we're going to
at least see that many people. So that's kind of what the numbers behind the
scenes look like a little bit.
Great yeah So if any of you find that interesting or you're curious about that,
but they probably don't but yeah but that's just us just kind of you know,
and figuring out what those numbers mean is always a Difficult thing but that's what they are.
And yeah, you know, so it just lets us know, you know, who's listening and,
You know, well, yeah, I think I think that one of the reasons that we started
this was not even necessarily for the listeners as much as well it was but,
But it was also for to just give us a place or an opportunity to talk about
some of the things that we,
Um, didn't really have another environment or opportunity to talk about and thought that,
okay, well, maybe someone may value, may find value in or benefit from the conversations
that we were having. Yeah.
Whether that's true or not remains to be seen.
I think at least some of some people would say that they find value in hearing. Mm-hmm.
I know people who tune in almost every week and you know, make it part of their,
listening routine and you know.
Appreciate them and hope that that's been a beneficial addition to their to
their to their Ingest of things over the over the year.
Well, what what are some of the things?
That as you look back on the last year um some of the things that are notable
to you or maybe that you learned significantly.
Or that like looking on back on the century of the last year of recording podcast
episodes that you would say like, okay, yeah, this, these things stick out to me.
Like out of things we talked about? Either things we talked about or just like,
things you learned about podcasting in general or having these types of conversations
or like engaging particularly on YouTube
engaging with the comment section, stuff like that. Yeah.
Yeah, I think one of the things I learned is, you know, it's kind of surprising
where the, because like the entry point to podcasting isn't terribly difficult, right?
Like you can go get a microphone at a, you know, reasonable price at Walmart and start a podcast.
But the, And there's a lot of tools that help us, you know, get the podcasts
out each week and edited and all of that Without taking up too much time out of our schedules,
But really like some of the biggest work for us has been at times finding that.
That right balance between you know a,
subject that is relevant to listeners, but also one that we kind of scratches
that itch that we want to talk about and kind of also the amount of like,
a time that it's taken, and it still is taking for us to even figure out what the show is.
Like, what is it for us? What is it for those that listen? What are the types of things we talk about?
And really like having to kind of work at, you know, we don't,
you know, we sit down, occasionally we have one or two scribbled notes,
but we don't have a script in front of us.
And it's not an interview necessarily, it's a conversation.
And so, you know, turning on and hitting record about much of a plan up front
doesn't sound like it's too much work, but it's still a lot of kind of work
for us to find what we're going to talk about and how to navigate that.
So I think that was kind of a bit of a surprise.
And how much podcasting is a bit of a consistency thing.
Like it's, you know, can you show up, turn it on and, you know, record and do it.
Um, and kind of trust, even if some of the like listening and the results are,
uh, maybe not visible. Right.
Um, because you know, we don't, we get like a handful of comments on like our
videos or things and stuff.
Um, but But I also think about my own listening habits and my own YouTube habits and all that stuff.
I almost never comment on anything that I watch or read or listen to.
But that doesn't mean I didn't benefit from it, gain something from it, find value in it.
And so there's a little bit of having to trust that there are people,
and people we know that listen to it regularly, know that they are listening,
know that they find value in it even if they're not being vocal about it in
the comment section. So there's a little bit of that like.
And you know anytime you create something and put something out there is always
this like Vulnerable feeling of what do people think about it?
And you know when you don't receive feedback or when you receive some negative
feedback There has to be a willingness to let go of people's perception of you
Like I don't know about you,
but like there's definitely been comments that have come across our videos where
I'm like, oh man and I wanna argue with them, or I wanna like defend myself
or something like that. Sure, yep.
Yeah, I agree.
And I think that that's probably been one of the things that I've been most
surprised at, or I guess one of the things that I've just learned the most over
the last year of doing this is,
particularly on YouTube where the comment sections are, is that you,
how much energy do I want to expend.
In engaging in the comment section? Knowing that there's not always a real,
the goal of the comment section is not always like a real pursuit of understanding.
Or truth, not always.
I would say that for the most part, our comment sections have been pretty good.
They haven't really devolved into just flat-out nonsense.
Sometimes. Sometimes. But we do have a fair amount of good faith comments. Yes.
Even if they're difficult or disagree with us, I'm fine with that. Yeah.
But the level of interaction that it takes to keep up with that kind of stuff is significant. yet.
I would say that one of the things that I have kind of learned,
even about myself, is that, and I don't know if it's...
As I get older, as I get more experienced, as I just...
I don't really know what it is, is that I feel like I'm much less interested
in stirring the pot than I was earlier in life and in ministry.
I don't know if it's just like I don't feel like I have the energy for it anymore, Or I don't have,
I'm not really interested in like defending my positions or like being misunderstood
or creating additional like...
Fires. Fires. Right. I think that's maybe it is like there is enough,
there are enough ministry fires that happened without me lighting the match,
that I don't really like, my energy to light the match is just really low.
Because there are still some things, I think, that we have had as topics for
a long time that I have opinions about, and that I think are valuable conversations,
but that I know are not necessarily, Well, I mean, not always necessarily like
primary theological or things, but that we have had on our topics list for a
long time that we haven't talked about.
That would be things like, you know.
Just as a general topic, like the what.
How Christians should engage or can think about like pro-life,
pro-choice conversations and that debate.
You know, a lot of the question, we've got some questions about the,
you know, the contemporary role of women in ministry and the relevant scriptures
or the cogent scriptures around those and where we stand on that.
So topics like that, I mean, we have not, we've not avoided the topic of homosexuality,
or human sexuality in general, although we could.
There's still more to talk about there. There's so much more there, there's so much more.
And I think, like you already said, the episode that we did on Andy Stanley's
conference, which was our most viewed, most commented episode.
I think it's still a good episode.
I don't know that I would go back and change anything that I said there.
Well, we were talking earlier, like there's a fair amount of comments and some
of the comments have kind of been generalized.
You could generalize some of the comments of just us over-complicating it.
Like why, if ultimately at the end we just disagree with Andy Stanley,
why does it need to be an hour-long discussion where we kind of try and go back and forth?
Why not we just say he's wrong and kind of be done with it?
Well, because to address that in particular, I think some people generally just look at the title,
Or listen to the first five minutes and are like, well, yeah,
Andy Stanley's wrong. So why are you even talking about whether or not he's right or wrong?
But that wasn't even the basis of the episode.
The basis of the episode was not
whether or not Andy Stanley's views on homosexuality were right or wrong.
We stated our views.
It was whether or not necessarily it was wise of him, or he should have,
or what is the role of the church in engaging parents,
whose kids are expressing either same-sex attraction or having issues with gender
or sexuality or whatever.
And that's what the conference was about. It was like, okay, you're a parent.
You have a child who is expressing some either.
Homosexual attraction or behavior or questions about their own personal sexuality,
how as a Christian parent now do
you engage with your child in a way that maintains relationship with them,
but does not compromise the belief. Biblical conviction.
Yeah, biblical conviction or your own personal convictions.
And so I see it as really two separate issues.
Because I, you know, the first person, you know, one of my primary pastoral
roles is to pastor my kids.
Or pastor my kids, you know? And so, yeah, I could, if one of them expressed
either same-sex attraction or issues with their sexual identity or anything like that,
you know it would be really,
Guess you could say easy for me to say you're wrong.
Yeah, you know, you can't think that way You can't feel that way.
You can't believe that way, you know, and if you believe that way you're not
a part of this family or you know, and.
I've Pastored enough people to know that that approach,
while maybe right in terms of the truth, almost always results in the ending of relationship.
It almost always results in the person walking away. Saying,
whoa, you can't accept me, then bye.
Either you can't accept me, or this is not a safe relationship for us to disagree in.
I don't feel safe to even disagree, so how could I ever have vulnerable relationship,
honest relationship with you.
If I feel like any time we disagree, you're just gonna cut me off.
And so we need to learn how to have conversation and be in relationship with
people that we don't agree with, without just saying, I don't agree with you,
therefore get out of my life.
I don't think that that's always a wise or pastoral approach.
And while I'm not willing to compromise on my convictions,
and what I believe the convictions of scripture are, I am willing to compromise
on my approach to people so that I can maintain relationship with them,
and pastor them through,
hopefully, some of those really difficult things.
That is my calling.
And I think one of the things, too, about the format of our discussions on here
is that, like we said, we don't have a script.
So a lot of times, we're just thinking on our feet, or we're processing through
a topic or an idea as it comes up.
We don't have the option of, or the luxury of creating and crafting our particular
thoughts ahead of time, and then editing them down.
And so sometimes I think that's always been a little bit of my fear,
is that people would see the thought process,
the journey of where we're kind of coming through and all the different things
that we're thinking about, and maybe I think this, maybe I don't think this,
and kind of judge the process and kind of be a little bit critical of that.
That's where I've kind of felt like that episode's taken a little bit of some criticism.
I was like, well, it's also just us thinking through it.
Right. Like you're, you, you know, like, I don't know, there's,
there's, there's wisdom in, you know, you know, if we just take the topic just
and then immediately jump to the conclusion and say, there,
like that might make a lot of people really happy, but at the same time,
it's not intellectually honest.
It's not, I mean, it's not just, it's not honest period because we all have
kind of think through and process things.
So, yeah, you felt like, to kind of go back to what you were saying,
like, not necessarily afraid to stir the pot, but like, sometimes maybe just
a little reluctant to, or...
Yeah, I just, you know, like, it, you know, it takes a lot of energy to to be
constantly defending your positions.
And like you said, we're letting people in,
like look into, sometimes, sometimes, a process of our discussion about what
do I believe on this or how has my belief changed over time.
And it's a much more, a lot of things are much more nuanced in conversation
than we would like, that people would like them to.
The whole conversation on deconstruction, which we've had really several times
over the course of the last year, scattered throughout lots of our episodes,
has really been a conversation that we've been having with one another,
but also with our listeners about why people deconstruct,
what are some of the reasons, theologically, sociologically,
relationally, that they...
Cause, or like push them into a deconstruction mindset.
What should we do as the church? What should we do as pastors?
What about some of those specific things, you know, like in particular are, do we agree with?
There's some things that we have said, yeah, I agree, like, you know, with.
Yeah, I think we did like a things people deconstructed about the Bible and
a significant amount those things that they came to change their beliefs,
we were like, yeah, actually, that's what we believe.
We believe that that's a correct understanding of the Bible or that passage. Right.
And so... And there's also a little bit of...
And this is something that I've learned over the years in ministry and just
in life in general is that... I know I've said this to you several times,
I've said it to all of our staff, I've said, you know, is that you.
You're not gonna convince someone of a different opinion who's committed to misunderstanding you.
Like, if someone is committed to misunderstanding any of your words, like is only,
only worried about making sure that they come out in the right,
and they're not really willing to have an honest conversation with it,
that it doesn't matter what you say.
They're committed to their position of misunderstanding you,
and so, you know, it's like literally talking to a brick wall.
And I don't have energy for that anymore. I don't have time for that anymore. I really just don't.
And so, like, I know that there are people who are waiting to just bait me into
conversation, even now.
And I, man, like, I know it's kind of a catchphrase, but I gotta protect my peace in some regards.
Like, I gotta limit access to my, limit people's access to my emotional energy,
because I only have it in limited supply.
But I do value these conversations and could probably use my own rationale there,
to push me into being willing to have some of those,
more difficult conversations,
women in ministry and pro-life, pro-choice, because you might as well just say
what you're feeling because you're not gonna convince people who are committed
to misunderstanding standing anyway,
right? So at least have the conversation.
Yeah, and all this is not to say that our podcast has by any mean been a hotbed of, No.
Like, think, whatever scale you're thinking at, probably think smaller, you know?
But it is always just that.
Oh, there was, this was funny. me.
So, you know, like, insecurity is something that, like, you know,
it's something I've had to deal with, and my wager is that anybody in ministry
has to deal with to some degree.
And you know, I was giving a sermon here sometime over the last two years I've been here.
I And I think I was saying something that was, it wasn't controversial.
It was something that I was pretty firmly believed, I knew that you would be in agreement with.
But I was maybe saying it in a way where I was talking about it or approaching
the passage in a way that might ruffle some people's feathers if they were in
a really conservative space or they'd maybe always understood the passage one
way and I was kind of coming at it from a different way,
saying, that's maybe not what the passage means,
and a couple got up and left in the middle of the sermon, and I didn't really know them at that time.
And I was just like, what did I say? Like what did I say that made them so angry
they had to get up and leave in the middle of the sermon?
That was Gordie and Jean. Turns out she just wasn't feeling well.
She wasn't feeling well.
I was like, you know, overly, way overly paranoid and sensitive about that at
that, you know, and, but that's just a, you know, like a distraction that happens
in the moment that you've got to kind of let go of a little bit.
But all to say, I don't know why I brought all that up, but maybe just to say that, like that is...
I think that is a fair obstacle that we have to overcome in ministry in order
to talk about these things and in a increasingly public world where we put all of our sermons,
we put these podcasts up online,
which online is forever, right?
So they say. So they say.
And so, you know, there is a little bit of like this, because it's become so
easy to publish things, you know, like, it takes a lot of work to publish a
book, or at least it used to.
Now you can, you know, independently publish your book on Amazon,
like in 10 minutes if you wanted to.
And so there's that threshold to editing and publishing and putting something
out there for everybody to see is just kind of dropped down.
And the way that we function and do ministry requires that we make ourselves
accessible in a teaching format in a way that a lot of people can access it.
And so there is a little bit of like, I'm out here and all of my thoughts and
all the things I say, and like, you know, somebody could get really mad about
me at me or something like that.
You know, that's a little bit of human experience behind all of it,
I think. Yeah, yep, I agree.
Shoot, there was something I was gonna say and I've completely lost it.
Yeah, I would be, I would, I'm interested to know,
if there are people out there listening now, that would have...
Well, another thing that I do kind of wish was utilized a little bit more...
A little bit better in our podcast in particular would be our text and our question line.
I would like to hear more about what people are interested in hearing,
or hearing their pastors or two pastors talk about, or not everyone's pastor that listens.
Because we do have a text line that we set up, it goes to neither of our phones,
so it's not our number, but... We get a text message letting us know that you
sent a message, so we see it.
But that's 716-201-0507, and that is just helpful for us to know,
okay, here's something that is important or means something to someone else
out there and like, all right, well,
let's kind of talk about it and see what we see what comes of it.
So I do wish that we could figure out some way to leverage that a little bit more.
I mean, that's always the difficulty of like, if you, if someone who's listening
has a question, do they think at the time, oh, that's a question I should send
into the text line and, you know, so.
Um, and then there's always that, like, you know, there's a threshold of like,
the more people you get listening, you know, only a certain percentage of them
are going to have a question or think to send something in.
So yeah, that's always because there is something that is a little bit,
there's a good energy to answering questions that are, you know,
seeking into kind of learn about things.
But you mentioned one of the topics that we probably talked about.
There's a couple of topics we talked about like in a recurring sense,
but definitely probably the biggest is deconstruction.
What do you feel like your journey or your learning about deconstruction has
been over the course of the year Both on the podcast and off the podcast like yeah.
I know it's a big question because you've been doing a lot of thinking about
that. Yes, a lot. A lot. Here's been some of my experiences.
The amount of topics or primary reasons that people deconstruct over are a lot
wider than I maybe had originally anticipated.
A lot more reasons have been given.
I would say I'm surprised at the amount of questions or the amount of like things that come,
the amount of times that I've heard people are deconstructing over a sense of
like anti-supernaturalism,
As well as probably the one that I'm was most surprised at would be belief about
hell judgment and eternal punishment.
I think that's the one that I was the most surprised about is that there is
a sense like of rejection of any like eternal punishment,
the concept or nature of hell or what it is.
And all of that does, I think, boil down, doesn't boil down to, but it traces,
a lot of those things trace their
origin and back into the what level of authority does scripture have.
Here's one of the things that has become, one of the things that I suspected.
But, and that every person who is deconstructed hard has been like,
no, that's not the reason.
But in every person that's deconstructed hard, this thing is evident, is that,
in the process of their deconstruction, they adopted some form of lifestyle,
that was more or less antithetical to Christian morality and ethics,
but it has nothing to do with the fact that I've deconstructed. Right.
Right, like there is a lifestyle or there are lifestyle choices that I am now
making that I didn't make when I was a practicing Christian.
But It's not the reason that I deconstructed.
I didn't let go of My Christian values my Christian beliefs because this is
the because this is the thing I wanted to do and I wouldn't do that at all That's
just disingenuous to even think it right. However.
You know, you might say, well, causation doesn't equal correlation type of thing,
but it certainly is like evident in just about every situation that I've seen.
Yeah. Every situation that I've encountered.
So it seems hard for me to accept that part of the reason you were willing to
deconstruct is because there was a lifestyle choice,
or decision that you wanted to make that you knew and know is antithetical to
Christian teaching, Christian belief, Christian practice.
And you just chose what you wanted to do. You just chose the lifestyle.
And that's, I would rather people just be honest than be like,
no, Christianity is wrong for all of these reasons, and I just so happen to
want to adopt, or I just so happen to fall into this lifestyle in the midst
of my deconstruction, I think is just like, eh.
So you kind of don't... You don't trust the self-diagnosis of people's deconstruction
necessarily. Not always, no.
I think sometimes it's just like, well, you know, no, I think you just wanted to live that way.
I think you just wanted to live that way. Right.
And do you have legitimate questions about the Christian faith? Yeah, maybe.
But I think that your legitimate questions about the Christian faith and the
conclusions that you come to
are heavily biased and lean towards the lifestyle that you wanted to live.
Yep. Granted, I think people could say that about my beliefs too.
Sure. You know? Like as a, for instance, you know, okay, you were living in
a heterosexual relationship while you were evangelical Christian, right?
You have now deconstructed your evangelical Christianity and discovered that you're homosexual.
And now believe that the scripture is in support of your lifestyle.
Shocking how automatically the Bible says something different or means something
different or is gonna be interpreted now differently that you have skin in the
game via your own lifestyle.
And so I just, I feel like there's some disingenuousness.
Disingenuity. You're being a little bit disingenuous sometimes.
So, but I also think that there are some, I also do think that there are some
legitimate emotional reasons that people deconstruct.
And I think that there are some legitimate reasons that like people are hurt
in the midst of the practice of their faith and with other people,
and there's not a concept of what forgiveness is and also what forgiveness is not.
Forgiveness is a big topic. Yeah. Yep.
It's a topic that I feel like everybody has to wrestle with at some point.
Yeah. And some of the bigger questions about forgiveness is like does forgiveness
equal reconciliation of relationship?
Mm-hmm Does the relationship need to go back to what it was correct or does
it need to go forward at all?
You know and What is the relationship between?
Forgiveness and judgment and jarred forgiveness and justice Because I think
a lot of times what we assume is that to forgive someone means they got away with it.
Yeah. But you can't actually forgive someone. In the act of forgiving is the
act of acknowledging you did something wrong.
Like, I don't think, like, I don't think it's forgiveness, you know,
like, I'm a Midwesterner, right?
So like everybody, you know, somebody forgets an appointment or something like
that and just stands me up. I'd sit on a coffee day all by myself.
And they're like, Oh, Luke, I'm like, so sorry. I'm like, Oh,
no big deal. Don't worry about it.
Right? I didn't forgive them. I just like brushed it off. I said,
Oh, don't worry about it. It's not a big deal.
But like forgiveness in that instance would actually be like...
Yeah, like, you know, like, yeah, like, you know, I forgive you. It's okay.
We all forget things at times, you know, not going to hold it against you.
Like, that would actually be forgiveness.
I'm acknowledging that they did stand me up.
It did kind of inconvenience me and hurt me, like, because, you know,
I felt like unimportant to them or something like that.
You know, in order to give forgiveness, the person who's asking for forgiveness
has acknowledge that they did something wrong.
And in the forgiving, you have to acknowledge that it was also wrong or hurtful.
That you were harmed, you were sinned against.
Right. If I just say, oh, it's not a big deal, or don't worry about it, like...
If it was a big deal, and you are worried about it. I am worried about it, right?
No, it's not hukuna matata.
So forgiveness can't exist without the acknowledgment of wrong done. 15 Yes, right.
Yeah, so, like, forgiveness is a big topic and it is often a issue within the
deconstructing movement.
And I understand that. I do.
I understand how it can be misunderstood understood how it can be misused,
misinterpreted, you know.
I'm hopeful to be able to teach more
on that this year. I've taught pretty significantly on it in the past.
But I think that when we're willing to embrace true biblical forgiveness,
we really do become free from a lot of our hurt.
Not necessarily easily, but it is the pathway.
It is the pathway to being free from our hurt, and it does not always require
the reconciliation of relationship.
You can forgive without desiring or wanting or pursuing relationship with that person ever again.
Firmly believe that.
So yeah, those are some of the things that I've learned about deconstruction
or that I've kind of encountered in my conversation with people who are,
and it's been a lot, it's been a lot,
and maybe, maybe hope to write on the topic someday, although I continue to say that.
We both continue to say we're gonna do more writing and I never create a plan
to do more writing, so I'm probably not gonna do more writing.
Yeah, well I guess like, I don't know, is there anything else you want to say?
Any other reflections of the year or hopes for the new year?
I think that.
I think I want to continue to engage the topics that are getting a lot of.
Getting a lot of interaction on the podcast. Things around maybe more social
issues, more conversations around deconstruction, because I believe they're important.
And then maybe begin to tackle some of the conversations that maybe I've been
avoiding for the next, for the last year.
And just to see, kind of see where they go. What about you?
Yeah, I think I'm, you know, I'm excited to kind of continue seat to see how
this show kind of Morphs and grows into what it's going to become,
You know and I'm excited,
you know, the new year is always an opportunity to Pause to kind of refresh
our focus and kind of you know begin again in a sense even though it is just
a calendar flipping over.
But it is, take advantage of that opportunity.
So I'm excited for kind of resetting some of my life rhythms and getting back into some of this.
I think what I'd like to do is create out maybe a bigger,
maybe plan some interviews for the podcast, do a little bit more long-term planning
so that we could bring some more intentionality that would be,
alleviate some of the pressure of sitting down to the microphone to say,
what are we gonna talk about today?
Yeah, there was a period at the beginning where we had several episodes already
recorded in the queue, so it wasn't, there wasn't as much pressure.
Yeah, yeah. So anything we can do to do that, Um,
you know, but I've, you know, I think this has been a beneficial avenue and
I think the more we, the more the show grows into whatever it is going to be,
I think, you know, that's, um,
I think that's where it's, you know, where it starts to shine.
And so, yeah, I don't know. I'm kind of excited and, you know,
I think it's been a helpful place to think out loud and, you know,
challenge myself to say what I think and not just kind of...
Because I'm the type of personality that will say, well, like,
wow, that's an interesting thought and just kind of like keep my mouth shut
as to what I actually think.
And so a place where I have to kind of come down and land on a thought on something
is a helpful exercise for myself personally too.
Agree. All right. Well, we hope you all have a Merry Christmas.
Yeah, we won't put out an episode for probably a week or two or maybe more so
we just kind of as the holidays happen and we travel and we maybe just gave
and give ourselves a bit of a,
hiatus to like Refresh our years and get set for the new year and everything, but we'll be back.
Send us your topics for the new year.
What what things should we talk more about in 2024? Yep, 716-201-0507 or you
can drop in the comments.
Music.