WEBVTT 00:00:06.403 --> 00:00:12.803 Welcome to the Uncut Podcast. I'm Pastor Luke. I am Pastor Cameron. 00:00:13.043 --> 00:00:18.203 And this is the Uncut Podcast, where we have honest, uncut conversations about 00:00:18.203 --> 00:00:21.003 faith, life, and ministry. 00:00:21.763 --> 00:00:28.183 Cameron, I was just looking at our, like, the show numbers and everything, 00:00:28.483 --> 00:00:34.243 and we are at 96 subscribers on YouTube. 00:00:34.243 --> 00:00:43.383 We're just four short of a hundred, so that's of the time of this recording. 00:00:45.423 --> 00:00:49.783 So yeah, we've been at this for, 00:00:50.343 --> 00:00:58.603 this will be episode 47, and we started this podcast in late January, 00:00:58.923 --> 00:01:00.983 I think, or early February. Mm-hmm. 00:01:01.183 --> 00:01:04.663 It's kind of confusing to me because I know we started recording earlier than 00:01:04.663 --> 00:01:09.183 we started releasing the episodes But yeah, there's been we've had some bonus episodes. 00:01:09.403 --> 00:01:13.443 So it's not necessarily been one per week. Yes, that's true Yeah, 00:01:13.463 --> 00:01:19.163 we're probably somewhere around like if we include the bonus episodes I can 00:01:19.163 --> 00:01:21.543 think of two so that probably puts us at like, 00:01:22.563 --> 00:01:27.143 49 yeah Well, I mean, our episode numbers are episode numbers, 00:01:27.263 --> 00:01:31.363 but like, if we stretch those out, be like almost a year's worth of episodes, 00:01:31.483 --> 00:01:32.823 essentially, yeah, just about. 00:01:33.083 --> 00:01:41.043 Yeah. So we're coming up. This will be our last episode for the year for 2023. Yeah. 00:01:41.743 --> 00:01:47.983 So we thought we would kind of take some time and just kind of reflect on what 00:01:47.983 --> 00:01:53.463 the podcast has been, for us, things that we've maybe learned in the year in general, 00:01:53.803 --> 00:01:58.883 but also just kind of, yeah, do a bit of a year in review kind of episode. 00:02:02.190 --> 00:02:07.870 Yeah, we've like, I was looking at the numbers, and we've had somewhere around 00:02:07.870 --> 00:02:16.050 the vicinity of, like, 10,000 downloads and listens, well, across all across all the platforms. 00:02:16.230 --> 00:02:20.950 So that's YouTube and all the audio platforms and everything as well. 00:02:20.970 --> 00:02:25.770 So that's, you know, that's, do you know where we're what platform experiences 00:02:25.770 --> 00:02:33.970 the most traffic with the Um, you know, I think YouTube definitely sees the biggest spikes. 00:02:34.570 --> 00:02:41.010 So like if a episode does really well, I think we see, uh, more people pick 00:02:41.010 --> 00:02:42.850 that up there, you know, I think our, 00:02:43.510 --> 00:02:50.470 um, some of our most popular episodes, I think one of them has like 1,200 views 00:02:50.470 --> 00:02:51.630 on it, something like that. 00:02:51.650 --> 00:02:55.610 So like one of our episodes that we did a couple, maybe a month ago now, 00:02:55.730 --> 00:02:58.590 month, two months ago on Andy Stanley. 00:02:58.910 --> 00:03:04.850 I think the first episode that we did on that in his church conference about 00:03:04.850 --> 00:03:08.970 homosexuality, that's probably been our biggest episode. 00:03:10.210 --> 00:03:16.930 Yep. But we see a lot of consistency in our... 00:03:16.930 --> 00:03:23.470 Actually, we see a fair amount of consistency in both YouTube and our audio podcast, we see around, 00:03:23.990 --> 00:03:28.990 I would say, like, we can, you know, average between the two of them, 00:03:29.250 --> 00:03:34.490 we're consistently about a hundred people we know, listen to it on a regular basis, 00:03:34.910 --> 00:03:41.910 you know, so maybe like 45 on like an audio download, maybe another 50 on YouTube. 00:03:42.350 --> 00:03:45.330 So that's kind of like a, when we put out an episode, we know we're going to 00:03:45.330 --> 00:03:49.150 at least see that many people. So that's kind of what the numbers behind the 00:03:49.150 --> 00:03:50.470 scenes look like a little bit. 00:03:52.930 --> 00:03:58.870 Great yeah So if any of you find that interesting or you're curious about that, 00:03:58.890 --> 00:04:03.030 but they probably don't but yeah but that's just us just kind of you know, 00:04:03.050 --> 00:04:07.690 and figuring out what those numbers mean is always a Difficult thing but that's what they are. 00:04:07.810 --> 00:04:13.030 And yeah, you know, so it just lets us know, you know, who's listening and, 00:04:13.950 --> 00:04:17.770 You know, well, yeah, I think I think that one of the reasons that we started 00:04:17.770 --> 00:04:24.610 this was not even necessarily for the listeners as much as well it was but, 00:04:26.230 --> 00:04:35.550 But it was also for to just give us a place or an opportunity to talk about 00:04:35.550 --> 00:04:36.810 some of the things that we, 00:04:37.776 --> 00:04:43.616 Um, didn't really have another environment or opportunity to talk about and thought that, 00:04:43.776 --> 00:04:51.596 okay, well, maybe someone may value, may find value in or benefit from the conversations 00:04:51.596 --> 00:04:52.936 that we were having. Yeah. 00:04:53.196 --> 00:04:56.016 Whether that's true or not remains to be seen. 00:04:56.276 --> 00:05:01.776 I think at least some of some people would say that they find value in hearing. Mm-hmm. 00:05:01.976 --> 00:05:06.916 I know people who tune in almost every week and you know, make it part of their, 00:05:07.516 --> 00:05:09.616 listening routine and you know. 00:05:10.876 --> 00:05:16.316 Appreciate them and hope that that's been a beneficial addition to their to 00:05:16.316 --> 00:05:20.616 their to their Ingest of things over the over the year. 00:05:20.956 --> 00:05:22.896 Well, what what are some of the things? 00:05:23.656 --> 00:05:29.016 That as you look back on the last year um some of the things that are notable 00:05:29.016 --> 00:05:33.156 to you or maybe that you learned significantly. 00:05:34.316 --> 00:05:39.496 Or that like looking on back on the century of the last year of recording podcast 00:05:39.496 --> 00:05:44.036 episodes that you would say like, okay, yeah, this, these things stick out to me. 00:05:44.336 --> 00:05:47.776 Like out of things we talked about? Either things we talked about or just like, 00:05:48.296 --> 00:05:53.696 things you learned about podcasting in general or having these types of conversations 00:05:53.696 --> 00:05:59.576 or like engaging particularly on YouTube 00:05:59.696 --> 00:06:03.576 engaging with the comment section, stuff like that. Yeah. 00:06:04.536 --> 00:06:10.436 Yeah, I think one of the things I learned is, you know, it's kind of surprising 00:06:10.436 --> 00:06:17.136 where the, because like the entry point to podcasting isn't terribly difficult, right? 00:06:17.156 --> 00:06:23.896 Like you can go get a microphone at a, you know, reasonable price at Walmart and start a podcast. 00:06:24.356 --> 00:06:28.536 But the, And there's a lot of tools that help us, you know, get the podcasts 00:06:28.536 --> 00:06:34.196 out each week and edited and all of that Without taking up too much time out of our schedules, 00:06:34.816 --> 00:06:40.076 But really like some of the biggest work for us has been at times finding that. 00:06:41.716 --> 00:06:46.096 That right balance between you know a, 00:06:47.376 --> 00:06:53.556 subject that is relevant to listeners, but also one that we kind of scratches 00:06:53.556 --> 00:07:01.776 that itch that we want to talk about and kind of also the amount of like, 00:07:03.748 --> 00:07:09.668 a time that it's taken, and it still is taking for us to even figure out what the show is. 00:07:10.148 --> 00:07:15.488 Like, what is it for us? What is it for those that listen? What are the types of things we talk about? 00:07:16.788 --> 00:07:21.128 And really like having to kind of work at, you know, we don't, 00:07:21.128 --> 00:07:25.088 you know, we sit down, occasionally we have one or two scribbled notes, 00:07:25.108 --> 00:07:27.568 but we don't have a script in front of us. 00:07:27.608 --> 00:07:31.908 And it's not an interview necessarily, it's a conversation. 00:07:32.188 --> 00:07:38.968 And so, you know, turning on and hitting record about much of a plan up front 00:07:38.968 --> 00:07:42.408 doesn't sound like it's too much work, but it's still a lot of kind of work 00:07:42.408 --> 00:07:47.088 for us to find what we're going to talk about and how to navigate that. 00:07:47.448 --> 00:07:49.428 So I think that was kind of a bit of a surprise. 00:07:50.208 --> 00:07:55.628 And how much podcasting is a bit of a consistency thing. 00:07:55.828 --> 00:08:02.548 Like it's, you know, can you show up, turn it on and, you know, record and do it. 00:08:02.968 --> 00:08:10.528 Um, and kind of trust, even if some of the like listening and the results are, 00:08:10.628 --> 00:08:14.328 uh, maybe not visible. Right. 00:08:14.808 --> 00:08:20.448 Um, because you know, we don't, we get like a handful of comments on like our 00:08:20.448 --> 00:08:22.188 videos or things and stuff. 00:08:22.608 --> 00:08:28.768 Um, but But I also think about my own listening habits and my own YouTube habits and all that stuff. 00:08:29.068 --> 00:08:33.548 I almost never comment on anything that I watch or read or listen to. 00:08:33.868 --> 00:08:38.348 But that doesn't mean I didn't benefit from it, gain something from it, find value in it. 00:08:38.828 --> 00:08:42.828 And so there's a little bit of having to trust that there are people, 00:08:43.528 --> 00:08:48.188 and people we know that listen to it regularly, know that they are listening, 00:08:48.388 --> 00:08:53.408 know that they find value in it even if they're not being vocal about it in 00:08:53.408 --> 00:08:56.028 the comment section. So there's a little bit of that like. 00:08:58.905 --> 00:09:02.465 And you know anytime you create something and put something out there is always 00:09:02.465 --> 00:09:05.765 this like Vulnerable feeling of what do people think about it? 00:09:06.165 --> 00:09:11.625 And you know when you don't receive feedback or when you receive some negative 00:09:11.625 --> 00:09:17.345 feedback There has to be a willingness to let go of people's perception of you 00:09:17.345 --> 00:09:19.385 Like I don't know about you, 00:09:19.565 --> 00:09:22.545 but like there's definitely been comments that have come across our videos where 00:09:22.545 --> 00:09:27.085 I'm like, oh man and I wanna argue with them, or I wanna like defend myself 00:09:27.085 --> 00:09:29.685 or something like that. Sure, yep. 00:09:31.125 --> 00:09:32.325 Yeah, I agree. 00:09:33.965 --> 00:09:38.365 And I think that that's probably been one of the things that I've been most 00:09:38.365 --> 00:09:42.345 surprised at, or I guess one of the things that I've just learned the most over 00:09:42.345 --> 00:09:44.845 the last year of doing this is, 00:09:45.565 --> 00:09:51.345 particularly on YouTube where the comment sections are, is that you, 00:09:51.785 --> 00:09:53.785 how much energy do I want to expend. 00:09:55.965 --> 00:10:03.445 In engaging in the comment section? Knowing that there's not always a real, 00:10:05.385 --> 00:10:10.565 the goal of the comment section is not always like a real pursuit of understanding. 00:10:10.845 --> 00:10:12.705 Or truth, not always. 00:10:13.125 --> 00:10:18.925 I would say that for the most part, our comment sections have been pretty good. 00:10:19.085 --> 00:10:22.605 They haven't really devolved into just flat-out nonsense. 00:10:23.325 --> 00:10:30.385 Sometimes. Sometimes. But we do have a fair amount of good faith comments. Yes. 00:10:30.845 --> 00:10:34.785 Even if they're difficult or disagree with us, I'm fine with that. Yeah. 00:10:35.685 --> 00:10:43.365 But the level of interaction that it takes to keep up with that kind of stuff is significant. yet. 00:10:46.385 --> 00:10:51.845 I would say that one of the things that I have kind of learned, 00:10:52.245 --> 00:10:56.125 even about myself, is that, and I don't know if it's... 00:10:57.492 --> 00:11:02.772 As I get older, as I get more experienced, as I just... 00:11:02.772 --> 00:11:10.632 I don't really know what it is, is that I feel like I'm much less interested 00:11:10.632 --> 00:11:17.872 in stirring the pot than I was earlier in life and in ministry. 00:11:18.312 --> 00:11:25.052 I don't know if it's just like I don't feel like I have the energy for it anymore, Or I don't have, 00:11:25.852 --> 00:11:32.372 I'm not really interested in like defending my positions or like being misunderstood 00:11:32.372 --> 00:11:36.672 or creating additional like... 00:11:37.492 --> 00:11:42.672 Fires. Fires. Right. I think that's maybe it is like there is enough, 00:11:43.432 --> 00:11:50.892 there are enough ministry fires that happened without me lighting the match, 00:11:52.032 --> 00:11:57.392 that I don't really like, my energy to light the match is just really low. 00:11:59.392 --> 00:12:04.772 Because there are still some things, I think, that we have had as topics for 00:12:04.772 --> 00:12:10.332 a long time that I have opinions about, and that I think are valuable conversations, 00:12:11.052 --> 00:12:17.932 but that I know are not necessarily, Well, I mean, not always necessarily like 00:12:17.932 --> 00:12:23.752 primary theological or things, but that we have had on our topics list for a 00:12:23.752 --> 00:12:25.112 long time that we haven't talked about. 00:12:26.372 --> 00:12:28.932 That would be things like, you know. 00:12:32.152 --> 00:12:35.772 Just as a general topic, like the what. 00:12:36.715 --> 00:12:42.375 How Christians should engage or can think about like pro-life, 00:12:42.515 --> 00:12:45.855 pro-choice conversations and that debate. 00:12:49.055 --> 00:12:52.895 You know, a lot of the question, we've got some questions about the, 00:12:54.075 --> 00:12:59.055 you know, the contemporary role of women in ministry and the relevant scriptures 00:12:59.055 --> 00:13:03.655 or the cogent scriptures around those and where we stand on that. 00:13:06.815 --> 00:13:16.875 So topics like that, I mean, we have not, we've not avoided the topic of homosexuality, 00:13:17.835 --> 00:13:20.295 or human sexuality in general, although we could. 00:13:20.835 --> 00:13:23.875 There's still more to talk about there. There's so much more there, there's so much more. 00:13:25.135 --> 00:13:30.675 And I think, like you already said, the episode that we did on Andy Stanley's 00:13:30.675 --> 00:13:39.075 conference, which was our most viewed, most commented episode. 00:13:39.075 --> 00:13:40.515 I think it's still a good episode. 00:13:41.595 --> 00:13:44.915 I don't know that I would go back and change anything that I said there. 00:13:47.475 --> 00:13:53.535 Well, we were talking earlier, like there's a fair amount of comments and some 00:13:53.535 --> 00:13:55.335 of the comments have kind of been generalized. 00:13:55.655 --> 00:14:01.495 You could generalize some of the comments of just us over-complicating it. 00:14:02.335 --> 00:14:06.335 Like why, if ultimately at the end we just disagree with Andy Stanley, 00:14:06.475 --> 00:14:12.675 why does it need to be an hour-long discussion where we kind of try and go back and forth? 00:14:13.015 --> 00:14:17.195 Why not we just say he's wrong and kind of be done with it? 00:14:17.615 --> 00:14:25.435 Well, because to address that in particular, I think some people generally just look at the title, 00:14:26.615 --> 00:14:29.815 Or listen to the first five minutes and are like, well, yeah, 00:14:29.855 --> 00:14:33.115 Andy Stanley's wrong. So why are you even talking about whether or not he's right or wrong? 00:14:33.355 --> 00:14:36.275 But that wasn't even the basis of the episode. 00:14:36.815 --> 00:14:39.815 The basis of the episode was not 00:14:39.815 --> 00:14:43.155 whether or not Andy Stanley's views on homosexuality were right or wrong. 00:14:43.855 --> 00:14:45.235 We stated our views. 00:14:47.155 --> 00:14:53.575 It was whether or not necessarily it was wise of him, or he should have, 00:14:54.875 --> 00:15:04.095 or what is the role of the church in engaging parents, 00:15:04.735 --> 00:15:12.255 whose kids are expressing either same-sex attraction or having issues with gender 00:15:12.255 --> 00:15:14.495 or sexuality or whatever. 00:15:14.635 --> 00:15:17.935 And that's what the conference was about. It was like, okay, you're a parent. 00:15:18.695 --> 00:15:23.495 You have a child who is expressing some either. 00:15:26.615 --> 00:15:31.595 Homosexual attraction or behavior or questions about their own personal sexuality, 00:15:31.795 --> 00:15:34.335 how as a Christian parent now do 00:15:34.335 --> 00:15:39.535 you engage with your child in a way that maintains relationship with them, 00:15:40.175 --> 00:15:43.715 but does not compromise the belief. Biblical conviction. 00:15:43.755 --> 00:15:46.935 Yeah, biblical conviction or your own personal convictions. 00:15:48.715 --> 00:15:51.755 And so I see it as really two separate issues. 00:15:54.675 --> 00:16:02.075 Because I, you know, the first person, you know, one of my primary pastoral 00:16:02.075 --> 00:16:03.895 roles is to pastor my kids. 00:16:04.795 --> 00:16:11.855 Or pastor my kids, you know? And so, yeah, I could, if one of them expressed 00:16:11.855 --> 00:16:16.715 either same-sex attraction or issues with their sexual identity or anything like that, 00:16:17.655 --> 00:16:21.395 you know it would be really, 00:16:22.924 --> 00:16:26.124 Guess you could say easy for me to say you're wrong. 00:16:26.584 --> 00:16:30.304 Yeah, you know, you can't think that way You can't feel that way. 00:16:30.444 --> 00:16:35.224 You can't believe that way, you know, and if you believe that way you're not 00:16:35.224 --> 00:16:38.004 a part of this family or you know, and. 00:16:39.824 --> 00:16:45.584 I've Pastored enough people to know that that approach, 00:16:47.064 --> 00:16:55.384 while maybe right in terms of the truth, almost always results in the ending of relationship. 00:16:56.504 --> 00:16:59.964 It almost always results in the person walking away. Saying, 00:17:00.304 --> 00:17:02.164 whoa, you can't accept me, then bye. 00:17:02.784 --> 00:17:08.544 Either you can't accept me, or this is not a safe relationship for us to disagree in. 00:17:09.024 --> 00:17:14.044 I don't feel safe to even disagree, so how could I ever have vulnerable relationship, 00:17:14.044 --> 00:17:15.964 honest relationship with you. 00:17:16.244 --> 00:17:20.164 If I feel like any time we disagree, you're just gonna cut me off. 00:17:21.124 --> 00:17:26.844 And so we need to learn how to have conversation and be in relationship with 00:17:26.844 --> 00:17:32.184 people that we don't agree with, without just saying, I don't agree with you, 00:17:32.384 --> 00:17:34.404 therefore get out of my life. 00:17:36.744 --> 00:17:43.284 I don't think that that's always a wise or pastoral approach. 00:17:44.264 --> 00:17:49.184 And while I'm not willing to compromise on my convictions, 00:17:49.784 --> 00:17:54.324 and what I believe the convictions of scripture are, I am willing to compromise 00:17:54.324 --> 00:17:59.964 on my approach to people so that I can maintain relationship with them, 00:18:00.684 --> 00:18:02.624 and pastor them through, 00:18:03.444 --> 00:18:05.784 hopefully, some of those really difficult things. 00:18:06.904 --> 00:18:08.864 That is my calling. 00:18:10.537 --> 00:18:15.977 And I think one of the things, too, about the format of our discussions on here 00:18:15.977 --> 00:18:19.897 is that, like we said, we don't have a script. 00:18:20.297 --> 00:18:25.217 So a lot of times, we're just thinking on our feet, or we're processing through 00:18:25.217 --> 00:18:28.417 a topic or an idea as it comes up. 00:18:28.617 --> 00:18:36.657 We don't have the option of, or the luxury of creating and crafting our particular 00:18:36.657 --> 00:18:40.257 thoughts ahead of time, and then editing them down. 00:18:40.257 --> 00:18:44.897 And so sometimes I think that's always been a little bit of my fear, 00:18:45.017 --> 00:18:48.977 is that people would see the thought process, 00:18:49.277 --> 00:18:52.397 the journey of where we're kind of coming through and all the different things 00:18:52.397 --> 00:18:56.517 that we're thinking about, and maybe I think this, maybe I don't think this, 00:18:56.597 --> 00:19:02.477 and kind of judge the process and kind of be a little bit critical of that. 00:19:02.577 --> 00:19:07.797 That's where I've kind of felt like that episode's taken a little bit of some criticism. 00:19:07.997 --> 00:19:10.397 I was like, well, it's also just us thinking through it. 00:19:10.857 --> 00:19:14.497 Right. Like you're, you, you know, like, I don't know, there's, 00:19:14.637 --> 00:19:21.157 there's, there's wisdom in, you know, you know, if we just take the topic just 00:19:21.157 --> 00:19:24.097 and then immediately jump to the conclusion and say, there, 00:19:24.457 --> 00:19:29.137 like that might make a lot of people really happy, but at the same time, 00:19:29.137 --> 00:19:31.497 it's not intellectually honest. 00:19:32.137 --> 00:19:37.277 It's not, I mean, it's not just, it's not honest period because we all have 00:19:37.277 --> 00:19:39.197 kind of think through and process things. 00:19:40.817 --> 00:19:45.657 So, yeah, you felt like, to kind of go back to what you were saying, 00:19:45.817 --> 00:19:50.977 like, not necessarily afraid to stir the pot, but like, sometimes maybe just 00:19:50.977 --> 00:19:54.877 a little reluctant to, or... 00:19:54.877 --> 00:20:06.617 Yeah, I just, you know, like, it, you know, it takes a lot of energy to to be 00:20:06.617 --> 00:20:08.437 constantly defending your positions. 00:20:09.157 --> 00:20:12.457 And like you said, we're letting people in, 00:20:13.317 --> 00:20:20.057 like look into, sometimes, sometimes, a process of our discussion about what 00:20:20.057 --> 00:20:24.657 do I believe on this or how has my belief changed over time. 00:20:27.717 --> 00:20:32.897 And it's a much more, a lot of things are much more nuanced in conversation 00:20:32.897 --> 00:20:36.657 than we would like, that people would like them to. 00:20:36.757 --> 00:20:41.477 The whole conversation on deconstruction, which we've had really several times 00:20:41.477 --> 00:20:45.777 over the course of the last year, scattered throughout lots of our episodes, 00:20:46.057 --> 00:20:50.197 has really been a conversation that we've been having with one another, 00:20:50.337 --> 00:20:55.797 but also with our listeners about why people deconstruct, 00:20:56.757 --> 00:21:02.037 what are some of the reasons, theologically, sociologically, 00:21:02.317 --> 00:21:04.717 relationally, that they... 00:21:05.784 --> 00:21:09.504 Cause, or like push them into a deconstruction mindset. 00:21:10.944 --> 00:21:15.264 What should we do as the church? What should we do as pastors? 00:21:16.504 --> 00:21:24.704 What about some of those specific things, you know, like in particular are, do we agree with? 00:21:24.884 --> 00:21:29.724 There's some things that we have said, yeah, I agree, like, you know, with. 00:21:30.144 --> 00:21:34.204 Yeah, I think we did like a things people deconstructed about the Bible and 00:21:34.204 --> 00:21:39.784 a significant amount those things that they came to change their beliefs, 00:21:39.984 --> 00:21:42.724 we were like, yeah, actually, that's what we believe. 00:21:42.924 --> 00:21:46.864 We believe that that's a correct understanding of the Bible or that passage. Right. 00:21:47.544 --> 00:21:55.504 And so... And there's also a little bit of... 00:21:55.504 --> 00:21:58.864 And this is something that I've learned over the years in ministry and just 00:21:58.864 --> 00:22:04.384 in life in general is that... I know I've said this to you several times, 00:22:04.484 --> 00:22:09.324 I've said it to all of our staff, I've said, you know, is that you. 00:22:12.424 --> 00:22:18.504 You're not gonna convince someone of a different opinion who's committed to misunderstanding you. 00:22:19.624 --> 00:22:26.064 Like, if someone is committed to misunderstanding any of your words, like is only, 00:22:27.164 --> 00:22:31.504 only worried about making sure that they come out in the right, 00:22:31.904 --> 00:22:35.544 and they're not really willing to have an honest conversation with it, 00:22:35.584 --> 00:22:37.224 that it doesn't matter what you say. 00:22:37.724 --> 00:22:42.264 They're committed to their position of misunderstanding you, 00:22:42.484 --> 00:22:46.904 and so, you know, it's like literally talking to a brick wall. 00:22:49.744 --> 00:22:55.204 And I don't have energy for that anymore. I don't have time for that anymore. I really just don't. 00:22:56.644 --> 00:23:01.564 And so, like, I know that there are people who are waiting to just bait me into 00:23:01.564 --> 00:23:03.484 conversation, even now. 00:23:06.435 --> 00:23:16.635 And I, man, like, I know it's kind of a catchphrase, but I gotta protect my peace in some regards. 00:23:16.855 --> 00:23:22.515 Like, I gotta limit access to my, limit people's access to my emotional energy, 00:23:23.615 --> 00:23:26.275 because I only have it in limited supply. 00:23:29.975 --> 00:23:41.795 But I do value these conversations and could probably use my own rationale there, 00:23:42.435 --> 00:23:46.835 to push me into being willing to have some of those, 00:23:47.915 --> 00:23:49.535 more difficult conversations, 00:23:50.395 --> 00:23:55.495 women in ministry and pro-life, pro-choice, because you might as well just say 00:23:55.495 --> 00:24:01.515 what you're feeling because you're not gonna convince people who are committed 00:24:01.515 --> 00:24:02.835 to misunderstanding standing anyway, 00:24:03.235 --> 00:24:05.435 right? So at least have the conversation. 00:24:06.815 --> 00:24:14.135 Yeah, and all this is not to say that our podcast has by any mean been a hotbed of, No. 00:24:16.095 --> 00:24:22.375 Like, think, whatever scale you're thinking at, probably think smaller, you know? 00:24:24.055 --> 00:24:25.775 But it is always just that. 00:24:27.895 --> 00:24:31.095 Oh, there was, this was funny. me. 00:24:31.555 --> 00:24:35.655 So, you know, like, insecurity is something that, like, you know, 00:24:35.855 --> 00:24:43.715 it's something I've had to deal with, and my wager is that anybody in ministry 00:24:43.715 --> 00:24:45.375 has to deal with to some degree. 00:24:46.075 --> 00:24:55.755 And you know, I was giving a sermon here sometime over the last two years I've been here. 00:24:56.915 --> 00:25:01.855 I And I think I was saying something that was, it wasn't controversial. 00:25:02.415 --> 00:25:08.695 It was something that I was pretty firmly believed, I knew that you would be in agreement with. 00:25:08.975 --> 00:25:13.615 But I was maybe saying it in a way where I was talking about it or approaching 00:25:13.615 --> 00:25:19.755 the passage in a way that might ruffle some people's feathers if they were in 00:25:19.755 --> 00:25:25.135 a really conservative space or they'd maybe always understood the passage one 00:25:25.135 --> 00:25:27.475 way and I was kind of coming at it from a different way, 00:25:27.515 --> 00:25:29.815 saying, that's maybe not what the passage means, 00:25:30.475 --> 00:25:37.735 and a couple got up and left in the middle of the sermon, and I didn't really know them at that time. 00:25:38.335 --> 00:25:44.475 And I was just like, what did I say? Like what did I say that made them so angry 00:25:44.475 --> 00:25:46.055 they had to get up and leave in the middle of the sermon? 00:25:48.096 --> 00:25:50.836 That was Gordie and Jean. Turns out she just wasn't feeling well. 00:25:50.856 --> 00:25:51.716 She wasn't feeling well. 00:25:52.136 --> 00:25:57.896 I was like, you know, overly, way overly paranoid and sensitive about that at 00:25:57.896 --> 00:26:02.036 that, you know, and, but that's just a, you know, like a distraction that happens 00:26:02.036 --> 00:26:04.636 in the moment that you've got to kind of let go of a little bit. 00:26:06.216 --> 00:26:12.716 But all to say, I don't know why I brought all that up, but maybe just to say that, like that is... 00:26:12.716 --> 00:26:20.576 I think that is a fair obstacle that we have to overcome in ministry in order 00:26:20.576 --> 00:26:31.196 to talk about these things and in a increasingly public world where we put all of our sermons, 00:26:31.196 --> 00:26:34.796 we put these podcasts up online, 00:26:35.096 --> 00:26:37.876 which online is forever, right? 00:26:38.816 --> 00:26:40.276 So they say. So they say. 00:26:41.736 --> 00:26:47.916 And so, you know, there is a little bit of like this, because it's become so 00:26:47.916 --> 00:26:51.516 easy to publish things, you know, like, it takes a lot of work to publish a 00:26:51.516 --> 00:26:53.156 book, or at least it used to. 00:26:53.236 --> 00:26:57.096 Now you can, you know, independently publish your book on Amazon, 00:26:57.336 --> 00:26:59.236 like in 10 minutes if you wanted to. 00:27:01.276 --> 00:27:07.476 And so there's that threshold to editing and publishing and putting something 00:27:07.476 --> 00:27:10.036 out there for everybody to see is just kind of dropped down. 00:27:10.276 --> 00:27:15.836 And the way that we function and do ministry requires that we make ourselves 00:27:15.836 --> 00:27:21.816 accessible in a teaching format in a way that a lot of people can access it. 00:27:22.616 --> 00:27:26.576 And so there is a little bit of like, I'm out here and all of my thoughts and 00:27:26.576 --> 00:27:30.236 all the things I say, and like, you know, somebody could get really mad about 00:27:30.236 --> 00:27:31.976 me at me or something like that. 00:27:32.136 --> 00:27:37.356 You know, that's a little bit of human experience behind all of it, 00:27:37.396 --> 00:27:39.696 I think. Yeah, yep, I agree. 00:27:42.336 --> 00:27:45.296 Shoot, there was something I was gonna say and I've completely lost it. 00:27:48.316 --> 00:27:54.056 Yeah, I would be, I would, I'm interested to know, 00:27:55.487 --> 00:27:58.687 if there are people out there listening now, that would have... 00:27:58.687 --> 00:28:06.747 Well, another thing that I do kind of wish was utilized a little bit more... 00:28:06.747 --> 00:28:12.867 A little bit better in our podcast in particular would be our text and our question line. 00:28:13.267 --> 00:28:18.527 I would like to hear more about what people are interested in hearing, 00:28:18.807 --> 00:28:26.287 or hearing their pastors or two pastors talk about, or not everyone's pastor that listens. 00:28:27.407 --> 00:28:31.547 Because we do have a text line that we set up, it goes to neither of our phones, 00:28:31.707 --> 00:28:36.087 so it's not our number, but... We get a text message letting us know that you 00:28:36.087 --> 00:28:37.807 sent a message, so we see it. 00:28:38.927 --> 00:28:45.467 But that's 716-201-0507, and that is just helpful for us to know, 00:28:45.587 --> 00:28:50.587 okay, here's something that is important or means something to someone else 00:28:50.587 --> 00:28:51.587 out there and like, all right, well, 00:28:52.147 --> 00:28:55.667 let's kind of talk about it and see what we see what comes of it. 00:28:55.727 --> 00:29:01.387 So I do wish that we could figure out some way to leverage that a little bit more. 00:29:02.027 --> 00:29:06.367 I mean, that's always the difficulty of like, if you, if someone who's listening 00:29:06.367 --> 00:29:10.227 has a question, do they think at the time, oh, that's a question I should send 00:29:10.227 --> 00:29:13.527 into the text line and, you know, so. 00:29:13.527 --> 00:29:18.447 Um, and then there's always that, like, you know, there's a threshold of like, 00:29:18.507 --> 00:29:22.107 the more people you get listening, you know, only a certain percentage of them 00:29:22.107 --> 00:29:24.527 are going to have a question or think to send something in. 00:29:24.787 --> 00:29:29.267 So yeah, that's always because there is something that is a little bit, 00:29:29.347 --> 00:29:34.667 there's a good energy to answering questions that are, you know, 00:29:34.967 --> 00:29:37.187 seeking into kind of learn about things. 00:29:37.967 --> 00:29:41.467 But you mentioned one of the topics that we probably talked about. 00:29:42.327 --> 00:29:46.047 There's a couple of topics we talked about like in a recurring sense, 00:29:46.187 --> 00:29:49.027 but definitely probably the biggest is deconstruction. 00:29:51.367 --> 00:29:56.247 What do you feel like your journey or your learning about deconstruction has 00:29:56.247 --> 00:30:02.647 been over the course of the year Both on the podcast and off the podcast like yeah. 00:30:09.157 --> 00:30:12.517 I know it's a big question because you've been doing a lot of thinking about 00:30:12.517 --> 00:30:16.977 that. Yes, a lot. A lot. Here's been some of my experiences. 00:30:22.137 --> 00:30:30.937 The amount of topics or primary reasons that people deconstruct over are a lot 00:30:30.937 --> 00:30:33.377 wider than I maybe had originally anticipated. 00:30:33.377 --> 00:30:41.057 A lot more reasons have been given. 00:30:41.997 --> 00:30:50.577 I would say I'm surprised at the amount of questions or the amount of like things that come, 00:30:51.397 --> 00:30:56.677 the amount of times that I've heard people are deconstructing over a sense of 00:30:56.677 --> 00:30:58.237 like anti-supernaturalism, 00:30:58.237 --> 00:31:11.257 As well as probably the one that I'm was most surprised at would be belief about 00:31:11.257 --> 00:31:14.017 hell judgment and eternal punishment. 00:31:14.657 --> 00:31:19.577 I think that's the one that I was the most surprised about is that there is 00:31:19.577 --> 00:31:28.097 a sense like of rejection of any like eternal punishment, 00:31:29.417 --> 00:31:32.017 the concept or nature of hell or what it is. 00:31:35.097 --> 00:31:41.957 And all of that does, I think, boil down, doesn't boil down to, but it traces, 00:31:42.557 --> 00:31:45.817 a lot of those things trace their 00:31:45.817 --> 00:31:51.017 origin and back into the what level of authority does scripture have. 00:31:53.377 --> 00:31:58.677 Here's one of the things that has become, one of the things that I suspected. 00:32:00.294 --> 00:32:07.314 But, and that every person who is deconstructed hard has been like, 00:32:07.474 --> 00:32:08.634 no, that's not the reason. 00:32:09.774 --> 00:32:17.214 But in every person that's deconstructed hard, this thing is evident, is that, 00:32:19.374 --> 00:32:24.174 in the process of their deconstruction, they adopted some form of lifestyle, 00:32:26.474 --> 00:32:32.514 that was more or less antithetical to Christian morality and ethics, 00:32:32.834 --> 00:32:38.214 but it has nothing to do with the fact that I've deconstructed. Right. 00:32:38.634 --> 00:32:48.234 Right, like there is a lifestyle or there are lifestyle choices that I am now 00:32:48.234 --> 00:32:53.174 making that I didn't make when I was a practicing Christian. 00:32:54.334 --> 00:32:58.234 But It's not the reason that I deconstructed. 00:32:58.334 --> 00:33:03.954 I didn't let go of My Christian values my Christian beliefs because this is 00:33:03.954 --> 00:33:07.394 the because this is the thing I wanted to do and I wouldn't do that at all That's 00:33:07.394 --> 00:33:10.754 just disingenuous to even think it right. However. 00:33:12.510 --> 00:33:17.410 You know, you might say, well, causation doesn't equal correlation type of thing, 00:33:17.410 --> 00:33:26.570 but it certainly is like evident in just about every situation that I've seen. 00:33:26.590 --> 00:33:28.490 Yeah. Every situation that I've encountered. 00:33:29.550 --> 00:33:37.210 So it seems hard for me to accept that part of the reason you were willing to 00:33:37.210 --> 00:33:40.310 deconstruct is because there was a lifestyle choice, 00:33:40.890 --> 00:33:45.310 or decision that you wanted to make that you knew and know is antithetical to 00:33:45.310 --> 00:33:48.130 Christian teaching, Christian belief, Christian practice. 00:33:48.550 --> 00:33:52.530 And you just chose what you wanted to do. You just chose the lifestyle. 00:33:52.690 --> 00:33:56.570 And that's, I would rather people just be honest than be like, 00:33:57.070 --> 00:34:01.610 no, Christianity is wrong for all of these reasons, and I just so happen to 00:34:01.610 --> 00:34:05.430 want to adopt, or I just so happen to fall into this lifestyle in the midst 00:34:05.430 --> 00:34:10.590 of my deconstruction, I think is just like, eh. 00:34:10.910 --> 00:34:16.390 So you kind of don't... You don't trust the self-diagnosis of people's deconstruction 00:34:16.390 --> 00:34:17.850 necessarily. Not always, no. 00:34:19.470 --> 00:34:26.090 I think sometimes it's just like, well, you know, no, I think you just wanted to live that way. 00:34:27.430 --> 00:34:29.550 I think you just wanted to live that way. Right. 00:34:31.090 --> 00:34:35.070 And do you have legitimate questions about the Christian faith? Yeah, maybe. 00:34:36.210 --> 00:34:40.950 But I think that your legitimate questions about the Christian faith and the 00:34:40.950 --> 00:34:42.350 conclusions that you come to 00:34:42.350 --> 00:34:47.450 are heavily biased and lean towards the lifestyle that you wanted to live. 00:34:49.130 --> 00:34:55.930 Yep. Granted, I think people could say that about my beliefs too. 00:34:56.550 --> 00:35:00.930 Sure. You know? Like as a, for instance, you know, okay, you were living in 00:35:00.930 --> 00:35:05.950 a heterosexual relationship while you were evangelical Christian, right? 00:35:06.290 --> 00:35:10.510 You have now deconstructed your evangelical Christianity and discovered that you're homosexual. 00:35:13.105 --> 00:35:22.725 And now believe that the scripture is in support of your lifestyle. 00:35:26.045 --> 00:35:33.905 Shocking how automatically the Bible says something different or means something 00:35:33.905 --> 00:35:39.265 different or is gonna be interpreted now differently that you have skin in the 00:35:39.265 --> 00:35:42.285 game via your own lifestyle. 00:35:43.145 --> 00:35:47.285 And so I just, I feel like there's some disingenuousness. 00:35:50.145 --> 00:35:55.945 Disingenuity. You're being a little bit disingenuous sometimes. 00:35:56.345 --> 00:36:05.025 So, but I also think that there are some, I also do think that there are some 00:36:05.025 --> 00:36:10.445 legitimate emotional reasons that people deconstruct. 00:36:10.445 --> 00:36:15.565 And I think that there are some legitimate reasons that like people are hurt 00:36:15.565 --> 00:36:19.505 in the midst of the practice of their faith and with other people, 00:36:19.825 --> 00:36:27.765 and there's not a concept of what forgiveness is and also what forgiveness is not. 00:36:29.185 --> 00:36:32.545 Forgiveness is a big topic. Yeah. Yep. 00:36:33.125 --> 00:36:37.285 It's a topic that I feel like everybody has to wrestle with at some point. 00:36:37.405 --> 00:36:41.285 Yeah. And some of the bigger questions about forgiveness is like does forgiveness 00:36:41.285 --> 00:36:43.285 equal reconciliation of relationship? 00:36:43.825 --> 00:36:49.005 Mm-hmm Does the relationship need to go back to what it was correct or does 00:36:49.005 --> 00:36:50.205 it need to go forward at all? 00:36:52.885 --> 00:36:58.005 You know and What is the relationship between? 00:36:58.845 --> 00:37:04.185 Forgiveness and judgment and jarred forgiveness and justice Because I think 00:37:04.185 --> 00:37:11.245 a lot of times what we assume is that to forgive someone means they got away with it. 00:37:12.145 --> 00:37:18.105 Yeah. But you can't actually forgive someone. In the act of forgiving is the 00:37:18.105 --> 00:37:21.645 act of acknowledging you did something wrong. 00:37:24.225 --> 00:37:28.105 Like, I don't think, like, I don't think it's forgiveness, you know, 00:37:28.145 --> 00:37:31.165 like, I'm a Midwesterner, right? 00:37:31.165 --> 00:37:37.485 So like everybody, you know, somebody forgets an appointment or something like 00:37:37.485 --> 00:37:40.245 that and just stands me up. I'd sit on a coffee day all by myself. 00:37:41.065 --> 00:37:44.265 And they're like, Oh, Luke, I'm like, so sorry. I'm like, Oh, 00:37:44.265 --> 00:37:45.845 no big deal. Don't worry about it. 00:37:46.585 --> 00:37:50.865 Right? I didn't forgive them. I just like brushed it off. I said, 00:37:50.905 --> 00:37:52.405 Oh, don't worry about it. It's not a big deal. 00:37:52.985 --> 00:37:58.305 But like forgiveness in that instance would actually be like... 00:37:59.584 --> 00:38:05.484 Yeah, like, you know, like, yeah, like, you know, I forgive you. It's okay. 00:38:05.664 --> 00:38:08.924 We all forget things at times, you know, not going to hold it against you. 00:38:09.024 --> 00:38:10.864 Like, that would actually be forgiveness. 00:38:11.184 --> 00:38:14.624 I'm acknowledging that they did stand me up. 00:38:14.844 --> 00:38:17.904 It did kind of inconvenience me and hurt me, like, because, you know, 00:38:17.924 --> 00:38:20.484 I felt like unimportant to them or something like that. 00:38:21.044 --> 00:38:25.964 You know, in order to give forgiveness, the person who's asking for forgiveness 00:38:25.964 --> 00:38:27.964 has acknowledge that they did something wrong. 00:38:28.024 --> 00:38:31.784 And in the forgiving, you have to acknowledge that it was also wrong or hurtful. 00:38:31.844 --> 00:38:33.624 That you were harmed, you were sinned against. 00:38:33.744 --> 00:38:38.564 Right. If I just say, oh, it's not a big deal, or don't worry about it, like... 00:38:39.144 --> 00:38:42.844 If it was a big deal, and you are worried about it. I am worried about it, right? 00:38:43.804 --> 00:38:46.144 No, it's not hukuna matata. 00:38:47.644 --> 00:38:53.484 So forgiveness can't exist without the acknowledgment of wrong done. 15 Yes, right. 00:38:54.504 --> 00:39:06.164 Yeah, so, like, forgiveness is a big topic and it is often a issue within the 00:39:06.164 --> 00:39:08.064 deconstructing movement. 00:39:10.864 --> 00:39:14.724 And I understand that. I do. 00:39:15.064 --> 00:39:25.604 I understand how it can be misunderstood understood how it can be misused, 00:39:26.004 --> 00:39:27.524 misinterpreted, you know. 00:39:30.204 --> 00:39:32.384 I'm hopeful to be able to teach more 00:39:32.384 --> 00:39:36.384 on that this year. I've taught pretty significantly on it in the past. 00:39:38.564 --> 00:39:43.844 But I think that when we're willing to embrace true biblical forgiveness, 00:39:44.664 --> 00:39:48.944 we really do become free from a lot of our hurt. 00:39:49.164 --> 00:39:53.584 Not necessarily easily, but it is the pathway. 00:39:54.858 --> 00:40:00.678 It is the pathway to being free from our hurt, and it does not always require 00:40:00.678 --> 00:40:03.518 the reconciliation of relationship. 00:40:04.338 --> 00:40:13.858 You can forgive without desiring or wanting or pursuing relationship with that person ever again. 00:40:14.898 --> 00:40:16.278 Firmly believe that. 00:40:18.298 --> 00:40:24.898 So yeah, those are some of the things that I've learned about deconstruction 00:40:24.898 --> 00:40:29.438 or that I've kind of encountered in my conversation with people who are, 00:40:29.958 --> 00:40:32.898 and it's been a lot, it's been a lot, 00:40:34.498 --> 00:40:42.338 and maybe, maybe hope to write on the topic someday, although I continue to say that. 00:40:42.498 --> 00:40:47.718 We both continue to say we're gonna do more writing and I never create a plan 00:40:47.718 --> 00:40:50.498 to do more writing, so I'm probably not gonna do more writing. 00:40:51.358 --> 00:40:57.338 Yeah, well I guess like, I don't know, is there anything else you want to say? 00:40:57.478 --> 00:41:01.898 Any other reflections of the year or hopes for the new year? 00:41:06.818 --> 00:41:08.398 I think that. 00:41:14.078 --> 00:41:18.058 I think I want to continue to engage the topics that are getting a lot of. 00:41:20.498 --> 00:41:26.098 Getting a lot of interaction on the podcast. Things around maybe more social 00:41:26.098 --> 00:41:32.278 issues, more conversations around deconstruction, because I believe they're important. 00:41:33.698 --> 00:41:39.018 And then maybe begin to tackle some of the conversations that maybe I've been 00:41:39.018 --> 00:41:41.018 avoiding for the next, for the last year. 00:41:42.958 --> 00:41:47.458 And just to see, kind of see where they go. What about you? 00:41:47.458 --> 00:41:53.818 Yeah, I think I'm, you know, I'm excited to kind of continue seat to see how 00:41:53.818 --> 00:41:59.238 this show kind of Morphs and grows into what it's going to become, 00:42:00.618 --> 00:42:03.638 You know and I'm excited, 00:42:03.978 --> 00:42:09.078 you know, the new year is always an opportunity to Pause to kind of refresh 00:42:09.078 --> 00:42:14.558 our focus and kind of you know begin again in a sense even though it is just 00:42:14.558 --> 00:42:15.638 a calendar flipping over. 00:42:16.018 --> 00:42:18.838 But it is, take advantage of that opportunity. 00:42:19.358 --> 00:42:30.218 So I'm excited for kind of resetting some of my life rhythms and getting back into some of this. 00:42:30.918 --> 00:42:38.058 I think what I'd like to do is create out maybe a bigger, 00:42:39.077 --> 00:42:44.217 maybe plan some interviews for the podcast, do a little bit more long-term planning 00:42:44.217 --> 00:42:47.957 so that we could bring some more intentionality that would be, 00:42:48.537 --> 00:42:52.197 alleviate some of the pressure of sitting down to the microphone to say, 00:42:52.277 --> 00:42:53.597 what are we gonna talk about today? 00:42:54.877 --> 00:42:59.017 Yeah, there was a period at the beginning where we had several episodes already 00:42:59.017 --> 00:43:02.157 recorded in the queue, so it wasn't, there wasn't as much pressure. 00:43:02.817 --> 00:43:05.957 Yeah, yeah. So anything we can do to do that, Um, 00:43:06.397 --> 00:43:11.457 you know, but I've, you know, I think this has been a beneficial avenue and 00:43:11.457 --> 00:43:17.477 I think the more we, the more the show grows into whatever it is going to be, 00:43:17.477 --> 00:43:20.357 I think, you know, that's, um, 00:43:20.797 --> 00:43:23.477 I think that's where it's, you know, where it starts to shine. 00:43:23.677 --> 00:43:27.877 And so, yeah, I don't know. I'm kind of excited and, you know, 00:43:27.897 --> 00:43:32.597 I think it's been a helpful place to think out loud and, you know, 00:43:32.597 --> 00:43:37.577 challenge myself to say what I think and not just kind of... 00:43:37.577 --> 00:43:40.717 Because I'm the type of personality that will say, well, like, 00:43:40.797 --> 00:43:44.097 wow, that's an interesting thought and just kind of like keep my mouth shut 00:43:44.097 --> 00:43:45.537 as to what I actually think. 00:43:45.717 --> 00:43:53.037 And so a place where I have to kind of come down and land on a thought on something 00:43:53.037 --> 00:43:56.377 is a helpful exercise for myself personally too. 00:43:57.517 --> 00:44:01.517 Agree. All right. Well, we hope you all have a Merry Christmas. 00:44:01.517 --> 00:44:06.677 Yeah, we won't put out an episode for probably a week or two or maybe more so 00:44:06.677 --> 00:44:10.797 we just kind of as the holidays happen and we travel and we maybe just gave 00:44:10.797 --> 00:44:12.177 and give ourselves a bit of a, 00:44:13.257 --> 00:44:20.477 hiatus to like Refresh our years and get set for the new year and everything, but we'll be back. 00:44:21.757 --> 00:44:25.097 Send us your topics for the new year. 00:44:25.177 --> 00:44:31.717 What what things should we talk more about in 2024? Yep, 716-201-0507 or you 00:44:31.717 --> 00:44:32.837 can drop in the comments. 00:44:32.720 --> 00:44:52.398 Music.