Zoe: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Autism and Theology Podcast. Brought to you by the Center for Autism and Theology at the University of Aberdeen.
Hello and welcome to this episode of the Autism and Theology Podcast. I'm Zoe, and it's great that you've joined us this week. This podcast is a space where we engage in the latest conversations in the field of autism and theology, share relevant resources, and promote ways that help faith and non-faith communities enable autistic people to flourish.
This podcast is run from the University of Aberdeen's [00:01:00] Center for Atusism Theology, which we've shortened to cat. You can find the transcript of this episode in the show notes as well.
Before we dive into this catch up episodes, um, I just wanna promote event that we have at the Center for Autism Theology. Dr. Henna Cundill, who recently spoke on the podcast about A DHD and Faith is releasing a new book on autism and prayer. It is called Praying by the Rules, what Autistic people teach the Church about prayer, and we're having a book launch for this on Friday, the 1st of May at 4:30 PM to 5:00 PM UK time.
It'll be an in-person event and an online event. So if you live in Aberdeen and wanna join, you're most welcome. And if you would like to join online, that would also be fantastic. You can find a link to register in the show notes and we're so excited about this [00:02:00] event. It'll be really interesting hearing more about, Henna's research.
on autism prayer and a few other experts in the field will also be talking Krysia, our co-host being one of 'em. Um, so yeah, really excited for this event. And please sign up. It's on the 1st of May at 4:30 PM UK time. But now to get dig me in on our catch at episode, I'm joined by Ian today. And we're gonna be chatting about how to advocate for children in education who are autistic or, um, yeah, also neurodivergent in general.
Um, as there's often so much overlap in these things, but yeah, just about that advocacy, whether. It's um, whether you're a parent of an autistic child or just someone who generally wants education to be a more accessible, welcoming place for autistic children. Um, so yeah, I guess like we're in different contexts here 'cause I'm in a UK context and Ian is over in the US and obviously policies and [00:03:00] stuff are very different.
So I think it's helpful to kind of, um, situate that. Ian, I don't know if you wanna share about kind of your experience in the US. Sure. 
Ian: Um, and you know, we have talked about this maybe in a, in a faith community context, although we can talk about that some more because often I find that's something that's a question that people have, it's a lingering question that just never gets answered is, how do we advocate for being a more welcoming, more inclusive community?
Mm-hmm. How do we advocate for, um, being more supportive of. Um, disability of neurodivergence of autistic people, um, in our faith community. But we also wanna look at that, um, in, in a, in a broader civic sense, right? Um, which is, which is really difficult and, and maybe pertains more to parents. I imagine we have plenty of, um, parents of autistic children who listen to the podcast and that's a really.
It's speaking [00:04:00] as a parent of an autistic child, it's a really difficult place to be because you have to simultaneously be your child's staunchest advocate, but also this is someone with whom you are entrusting your children for. 6, 7, 8 hours a day. Right? So you have to recognize that if you alienate them, if you make them angry at you, you have the potential of of them.
I, I don't want to, I don't wanna say taking it out on your children, but are they, are they gonna be doing everything in their power? Are they gonna be as, as. Loving and as nurturing as they might otherwise be, if they're thinking in the back of their head, wow, that parent really is a pain to deal with.
Right. Um, so it's just a really difficult spot and, and particularly as an autistic person myself, I find really difficult to navigate when I'm not really sure of the power dynamics. I'm not really sure how I'm supposed to relate to people, [00:05:00] so I. I, I, I struggle with this sometimes. Like, how, how do I advocate for my son?
How do I, how do I, um, negotiate this landscape with teachers? Um, how do I sort of lobby for the supports that he needs without seeming like a, like a constant pain in the neck to the teachers, right? Um, and the same thing happens in faith communities, right? That like I talk about disability theology a lot more than the average priest does.
And you know that some people are like, oh my gosh, here he goes again. But like, if I'm not doing it, then who's doing it? Right? If I'm not advocating for, for inclusion of disabled folks, if I'm not advocating for full belonging for the, the, the wholeness of the body of Christ, then who is right?
Zoe: I think that's such a helpful point.
Like if I'm not doing it, who is? And I think there's like a level of like, okay, we can't be like feeling hyper responsible for like every autistic child. And um, [00:06:00] it's important not to kind of put pressure. So like, I wanna kind of caveat that, but I think it's also a really helpful point, like, especially when like.
W like, I guess us as like hosts of the podcast as well as Krysia researchers at the center. And I'm sure a lot of our listeners on the podcast are actually in a position where they probably know a bit more than the average person about what autism actually means, how it can impact, um, education and people's experience of just life in general.
And I think that does give some level of responsibility to be like, okay, well how am I using that knowledge to advocate? And again, as I said, I'm not saying like, oh, like if you know something, you need to be like pushing and pushing and pushing. But I think it's. As far as you are able and feel is safe for you?
I guess it's an important, I guess it's a challenge like for me as well. I'm just thinking like as I'm speaking this, [00:07:00] okay, well, like how do I use the knowledge and involvement I have in Autumn and theology to make, to like advocate for changes and yeah, I think that's a really interesting point. And then like, you know, you're saying as a parent of an autistic child.
The changes that you can advocate for, for your child will likely impact other autistic children in the classroom whose parents maybe just don't even know where to start or feel overwhelmed or feel confused or given a diagnosis. And maybe just like no support on how to deal with that diagnosis or how to process that, um, or identification.
And I think that's a really, yeah, it's just a really interesting. Thing that, yeah. Really stood out to me with what you were saying. Um, yeah. 
Ian: Yeah, and I mean, I mean I, yeah, like you, I don't want to say it's up to everyone. Like we need to add one more thing to the pile of stuff that we need to accomplish.
Right? But the truth is, [00:08:00] it is so much easier for people to dismiss if the only people advocating for inclusion, if the only people advocating for educational supports, if the only people pushing for. Um, for, for broader acceptance and understanding are people who have a personal stake in the matter. It is so easy to say, well, you only care about this because you're autistic and your son's autistic.
Right? It's so much harder if it's a parent of a neurotypical kid who's saying, actually, I want a, I want an environment where that. That my child is learning, that we're supposed to all be together, that we're supposed to all take care of each other and and belong to one another and support each other.
And like you say, I don't wanna, I don't wanna blow. This is not meant to blow our own horn, so to speak, but if you are listening to this podcast, it puts you in the top. Like 5%, maybe top 1% of people in terms of awareness around autism, because the vast majority of people, if they [00:09:00] don't have personal experience, I mean there, there are still people for whom their only understanding of autism is, is, uh, rain Man.
Right? Uh, there are people who really just have not really developed, um. Anything other than the most cursory understanding of what autism means and autism entails. And if you're listening to this podcast, you have just absorbed a lot more than, than the average person who doesn't have, um, who doesn't have that, that firsthand experience.
So it's, it's one of those things, you know, there are in any community, in the church, in school, in the broader, um, civic realm, right. Change never happens if the only advocates for it are the people who have a personal stake in it. That's not to say that I, that I'm not responsible or I'm, I'm saying I'm not gonna do anything.
But if I'm the only one advocating for this, then it becomes very easy to say, well, of course he's for it. [00:10:00] Right? Um, it's his pet project, it's his child's pet project. Um, but if we, if we really want to enact change, if we really want to be part of a society where. Truly everyone is supported and accepted and, and belongs then, then we need people who are neurotypical or otherwise neurodivergent, non-autistic, right?
Um, we need people who don't so, and don't have a personal stake in this, so to speak, saying actually I want to, I want to be part of a society that really, that really takes care of all of its members. And that used to be a lot less controversial I think. 
Zoe: Yeah. Do you think that's the case? Like, and like obviously like we don't need to go too much into like political stuff, but do you think some of that's related to like politics in the US at the moment and just attitudes towards.
Neurodiversity and disability generally. 
Ian: Absolutely. Absolutely. It used to be a, [00:11:00] a, a pretty common political consensus in the United States that we wanted to support people with disabilities, right. That used to be uncontroversial. We have gotten to the point now where we have, like everything else in our society, and I don't think the UK is wildly different in this regard or, or maybe not to the same degree, but.
A lot of the same patterns are playing out where everything becomes political, where everything that touches on the, on the public sphere, you have to have, you have to take a position on, and sometimes we're taking positions just to distinguish ourselves from those people over there. So even if it used to be the case that both, I mean in, we have a two party system in the US and it used to be the case that members of both parties generally supported special education supports, right.
That is no longer the case. Now it's primarily one, one party that supports it and one party that says cut the funding. We don't need to worry about that. Um, I'm not trying to be [00:12:00] political, but that's just the reality. Right. And we have gotten to that point, I think, to our shame and to our detriment because we allow everything to be politicized.
And it used to not be, I mean, 10 years ago, I could say we wanna support. We want, we want to fully fund special education supports and even though we have never fully funded it, at least making that statement was something everyone would agree to. 
Zoe: Yeah, I think, I mean, I probably don't know enough as I should.
I guess I have been out of school education for a while and don't have children, so like my knowledge is my husband as a teacher, but I think like. I do think it's an interesting one 'cause in the UK I think it is definitely, from my understanding, and I fully accept, I might be wrong on this and might be a bit ignorant about it, but I do think there's a general level that it's like, okay, we do want to be supporting each child and like that's important and it is like supported by government.
I almost think the issues are still more in that kind of like societal, [00:13:00] um, like, or like. We don't want our children, like we need our children to be making friends in a normal way. We need our children to be doing things we don't want, um, our classrooms to be disrupted by children who are causing problems.
And it's maybe a slight lack of understanding of like, well, maybe the kids in your classroom who are different are causing problems because they're not getting the support that they maybe need, or they're like, it's a lot more complex than just like all these badly behaved autistic children. I think that's sometimes the narrative, and I think that's deeply problematic.
So I think in some ways it's different. It's like. Certainly not as extreme on a policy education level, but there's still these like, um, underlying societal issues, which is the same as we talk about in churches. And, um, I'm just thinking as well, like as you're speaking about the importance of people who aren't necessarily like stakeholders or, um.
Right in the midst of it advocating, I mean we're [00:14:00] recording this in Neurodiversity Awareness Week and I think a really like helpful thing that certainly, I don't think, I'm sure things have changed now, but certainly when I was in school, I don't remember neurodiversity or autism or whatever else ever being sort of like celebrated as a like, okay, we're gonna actually like focus on this like we do with World Book Day or um, I dunno, like all these other things.
And I think even just that and like making it a normal thing, like it's not a taboo subject. It's not like all that like weird neurodivergent child in the corner. It's being like, actually let's celebrate difference. Like we don't want a world where it's like we don't wanna world or classroom where everyone is thinking and doing things in the exact same way.
Um, and I think just that like. Being able to celebrate and like have those awareness is a really good opportunity. Um, not just be like tokenistic for a week, talk about these [00:15:00] things, but as an opportunity to really educate on why it's important to understand these things and why it's important to be caring.
And I think that I would hope maybe I'm just optimistic and as I said, I'm aware. I'm not a teacher. I have not been in school for a while, but I would hope that that kind of attitude trickles down. You know, I see my niece like reading a book about blindness and she understands that some people are blind and that's like, that's just like fine.
And she is slightly fascinated by the fact I wear glasses and like, um, but I think it's like that kind of like actually teaching children that these things are part of the world. Is a really good way to start building conversations and then that's where adv advocacy can happen, not just like out of nothing, I guess.
I hope that makes sense. 
Ian: It does. And one of the things that I think we often forget about, or that I haven't heard as frequently [00:16:00] advanced around neurodivergence and neurodiversity is something that the broader disability community knows really, really well, which is the curb cut effect, right? Which is the idea that like curb cuts, which are those, those cuts in the curb to make sure that they're, um, that, that.
Sidewalks are actually accessible, that it actually ends up benefiting people a lot more, um, beyond just the community that it's intended for. And I think the same thing goes for, um, support and embrace and acceptance and, and, um, lifting up of neurodivergence is that if we recognize for autistic children, for example, the idea that behavior is communication that autistic children are not.
Troublemakers, they're in distress and they're behaving in a certain way because they can't, they, they, they, they don't have, um, they're not able to do what you're asking them to do. Or they're in a, they're in a situation that they can't handle. Um, that's too much for [00:17:00] them and that's not being. Addressed.
If we understand behavior as communication and instead of thinking, wow, this child is a troublemaker, we can apply that to other kids. 'cause guess what? It's true for other kids too, right? Most kids are not bad kids. And so anytime there's a behavior issue, we want to treat it as a, as a cause and effect.
We want to act as, I mean our, our default. Answer is behaviorism. Let's identify what caused this and eliminate the cause. But the reality is it's communication. And if we, if we are accepting and supportive of autistic children, when they act out, which is a phrase I don't really like, but when they're, when they're quote unquote misbehaving or doing something that we don't want them to do, if we understand that as communication, and we address that by looking at.
What's going on and offering them support instead of criticism or discipline, then we are able to do the same thing with other children in distress with other children that are acting out, saying, [00:18:00] what is it that's that's leading to this? What is that? What is it that's putting them in a situation where they feel like this is the proper response or the only response available to them?
And how do we address that instead of trying to just address the behavior? Um. That's just and, and the unfortunate thing is I think that the church community is actually a little bit behind the wider. Community, the wider school community, the wider civic community in some respects, because we still have so much baggage, tying disability to sin and using imagery and metaphor and analogies that that use disability as a, as a metaphor for spiritual deficiency, that we still tend to perpetuate this.
This conception of disability as, as a negative thing, as, as somehow lacking as, as even spiritually deficient. And so we have a lot of work to do as church communities, but it, [00:19:00] it's just, it's, there's so much work in general. Um, and I don't mean to overwhelm anyone, but, but it just requires. Education and advocacy on the part of everyone.
Um, because, we'll, we'll just never get there if it's always a case by case basis. If every parent has to advocate for a solution for their individual child when the, when the situation arises. 
Zoe: Yeah. I wonder just if like kind of. Coming off what you've said there, if it's helpful to talk about like practical ways that people can do that advocacy work, whether it's like schools or even just in churches.
I think like the one thing to me that comes from my to mind in the UK is just writing to your local MSP or MP when there's conversations about education or, um. Additional support needs coming up in, um, like government or parliament discussions or even just like more broadly if there's, if you identify an issue [00:20:00] in a school or whatever and you're like, this isn't okay, you can make use of that and just.
Let your voice, it's a really simple way of letting your voice be known. There's so many templates online that you can find of, um, how to do that. And I think that can be a really effective way of saying like, okay, personally I don't know how I can actually make a change here, but I'm seeing an issue that I want raised, so I'm gonna contact these people.
And I think that's a pretty, um. Quite a straightforward way of doing things. And um, yeah, it requires a bit of research, a bit of like, okay, what do I actually want to ask for? How can I be specific? But I think that is a helpful thing that people can practically do. I think also just sharing things like, um, resources on autism.
We've got like, obviously this podcast, faith based, but there's other, so many, like other podcasts on autism, so many other researchers on, um. How to talk about autism in [00:21:00] schools is our neurodiversity more broadly in schools as well. And even just sharing those on social media can actually like just get the point across a bit more to other people.
Um, yeah, that's kind of basic things that come to mind for me. Ian, I don't know if you have some more profound insights. 
Ian: Yeah, I mean there's, there are always, always, always local advocacy organizations that you can tie into, right? There's always somebody on a local level that is working toward this end that you can support or, you know, get connected with or advocate for.
Um, but yes, just trying to keep. Informed as, and that's real. That's easier said than done in today's media environment. It just becomes overwhelming so quickly. But paying attention to local stories, you know, um, here in the United States, paying attention to, um, what's going on in your school district, not just nationally or what's [00:22:00] going on in your state with education funding, because so much of that is state based.
Um. And, and, and just trying to keep up with all of that so that you know what's actually going on and yeah, calling your representatives when, when those bills come up, that, that have an impact and saying, actually, I think you should support this. Um, that's, so it, it. I, I don't wanna say it's nothing, but it doesn't require mountains and mountains of time, you know?
Um, and making even just one of those phone calls to a representative's office can make a huge, huge difference because so few people bother doing that in this day and age. Um. And, and then just trying to lift up and point toward those voices, just like you said, right? Sharing something on social media.
If you hear someone making a case for, um, advocacy for a local bill or a, or a state bill or something like that, that, that, that [00:23:00] will support, um, neurodivergence support, disability support, uh, people who, um, who need supports in your community and just. Making sure that people are aware of that because so many people aren't right.
Um, it's just so easy to just hear about the big headlines, um, 'cause there's so much going on nonstop in the world. And to lose sight of all those, I don't wanna say little 'cause for, for people who are, you know, for autistic kids who need supports. It's massive. It makes a huge difference. Um, but it's not on the same scale of like.
War at an international level, which is in the headlines, right?
One thing I'd add for people who do, um, want to educate themselves further is if you haven't read Steve Silberman's NeuroTribes, if you haven't read Eric m Garcia's, we Are Not Broken.
Those are great books that give an overview of all the history of. Autism and [00:24:00] Neurodivergence that talk. Um, Eric Garcia's book in particular talks a lot about the political history, right? Um, and will get you up to speed on at least the broad strokes if you feel unfamiliar with it. So if you're interested in advocating and Ed educating yourself a little bit, those are two really great places to start.
Zoe: Yeah, I'll pop links those in the show notes as well. 
And I think also just to like, before we close, just an encouragement that like, um, it is difficult and it's fantastic when people do advocate and even just by like, educating yourself on autism and um, that even in itself is a. Really great thing to do and um, yeah, I guess just.
Encouraging people in like little ways is also good. Um, and also like we understand that teachers are, and like education systems are so stretched, um, we're not trying to say, like us coming in, being [00:25:00] like, oh, this should be fixed. This should be fixed. But I think it is, just like having these conversations is really helpful.
And if anyone, um, has anything to share, if anyone um, wants to push back on anything we've said, please get in touch. We would love to hear from you. Um, so yeah, email us anything. You can contact us at cat@abdn.ac.uk Um, yeah, any questions, any reflections, please let us know. Um, but yeah, thank you so much for listening.
As I said at the beginning, you can find a link to the show, a link in the show notes to our book Launch with Henna Cundill on the 1st of May. We really hope you can make that and join us. Um, there'll also be a discount code available for that book, so definitely worth coming along .
[00:26:00] Thank you for listening to the Autism and Theology Podcast. If you have any questions for us or just wanna say hi, please email us at cat@abdn.ac.uk or find us on Twitter at Autism Theology.